Yes- and no. I saw the Life study on wealth (rich getting richer, you know the rest) and although it shows the numbers(%) it fails to talk anything about trends. Firstly, a lot of manufacturing jobs were shipped out of the country over the last decade. Secondly, higher earning/technically advanced jobs have increased as new companies have come on-line and existing tech companies thrive(Google, Microsoft, Apple, tech sector). So, yes there have been major losses in lower/middle income manufacturing, but more have been created in other sectors.

On the tax front I'll go with you part way. Yes the super earners can afford to pay more. I'm fine with a capital gains tax increase so Warren gets to pay more from his real income. WE need to reform the taxation system as well. When almost 50% don't pay taxes, they don't have an interest in where the money is going. We need the Fair Tax so the rich pay more and the poor have a vested interest in the system. Also, more taxes only if cuts occur.

You a tea people GOP republican JoeNY? Looks like you want it both ways.

You've went and done it now Feisty, being first to post will drive the tea people GOP republican trolls on here nuts. They'll accuse you of being God to being the devil and everything in between.

How about the Congress cut their retirement benefits. A drop in the bucket I know, but that would show the country that they are willing to take their own medicine.

Feisty - What deal do you have with MSNBC that allows you to make the first comment on all political articles?

Mo - She is always the first poster on these articles.

Personally I think there is a lot wrong with both parties but I want to point out that expanding the money supply as the current administration and Fed has done weakens the middle class and poor also through inflation. Just pointing at the GOP is totally disingenious. Both parties are culpable through their policies.

Mo:

If you're going to insult us tea party folks, could you actually use correct grammar? It will really increase your credibility.

This seems more like divisive, political actions and not real attempts to do what's best for the country. The tax code needs an overhaul - not another round of special rules.

To those of you that think this will result in any significant tax revenue, I think you are greatly underestimating the ability of people with resources to avoid taxation.

What this will do is effectively eliminate small and mid size industry in the US from competition as all business net will be taxed higher leaving no expansion investment capital. The publicly traded big business will just raise prices and cut costs, the millionaire ball players, CEOs, inventors etc.... will just negotiate higher salaries based on take home figures leaving the middle class paying higher prices and less jobs. If you do work, you will have less bennies, longer hours, more production demands per worker and less pay as well as paying higher prices for everything. Go to IRS.GOV and check targeted tax increases and you will find that the top tier earners always report more earned income the following year and the bottom tiers reporting less earned income. Every time!!!! You guys are going to be paying the tax increases for the rich and are grinning like a mule eating briers as you get bent over the table again. There is no hope for you simpletons! This'll kill ya. Watch Limbaugh, Hannity, and the crew all get increases in their take home salaries next year and know that you helped pay their tax increases so they could take home more money.

Miss those day's when Union's Were at Thier Peak power

The Country did NOT Have This Fiscal Debt Like FAKE Conservative GOP Lie...

We the people = Made real Wages and Healthcare , Vacation = Holiday pay, Dental, the List is Much Longer and Mostly GONE.

but, not for the Coddle the WEALTHY ONLY Party of greed GOP.

And No J O B 'S is G O P..... Failure for We the People accomplished..!

Mo- Honestly I've cut up my party affiliation cards and select candidates purely on what I think they will do (based on their comments, previous actions, etc.) for the best interests of our country. I'd happily vote for either a Democrat or Republican if I think they are the best choice.

I want it both ways- yep. I believe the US taxation system is broken. Understanding that we now have clear strata of income distribution, the failing middle class, etc. it's clear that our job trends in this country are favoring high tech/desk jobs/management/etc. and the manufacturing sector is being moved off shore to get better profits(for the investors- you). So some of the middle and bottom end of the job spectrum is getting weaker. Now add in the taxation system- 53% pay federal taxes for 100% of the people. The government is spending more every year(without a passed budget) and growing governmental dependence by the populus. So they constantly need more money, so they raise taxes on those whom pay taxes. The problem here is that while I do believe that we have a responsibility to help those in need, we should NOT have a system that develops a welfare culture. It makes no sense for us to create and carry a portion of the population to believe that the government owes them a lifestyle (rent, food, services, etc.- and no cable tv and a cell phone are not rights).

I believe the solution for this problem is- 1. Term limits in national politics., 2. Revamp the taxation system into a Fair Tax system- removing the current 13% imbedded taxes(yes, you are paying this right now) and replacing them with a similar 13% in consumption tax. You buy more, you pay more. Then the federal government's job will be setting a minimum regional family requirement level(average food, shelter, etc. of a family of 1,2,3,4, etc.). They would refund that baseline number from your monthly consumption tax so that you can do what you wish with it. As you can easily see, those spending more (nicer food, houses, cars, vacations, stuff) would vastly outspend that level and their extra taxed money goes to the federal government for whatever. Why do this? So that everyone is represented in the tax system, the IRS would no longer be searching through their sea of volumes of tax laws to find what you did wrong on your paperwork, and the federal government would get more income. It's a win-win-win.

So, yes I want it both ways, but I think that is possible. You give people more power with their money, they'll continue to spend as they see fit. The extra money will go back into the economy (through sales) and the extra sales go in to the federal government's coffers.

Feisty

Good Morning YODA

I See You are what Causes the GOP Failure NOW................................................

Fisty slow?? I don't think so, now the other...

Good Morning YODA

And a good morning to you oldgop!

Trust you had a wonderful weekend! ;o)

I know I did, watching the tea baggers running around with their hair on fire!

The blame Game Has Karma ...

and it Might be God the GOP Use and Lie about and To...........................

mitchj is LYING. Another Douschebag myth because BOO HOO you can't take an intelligent debate. Maher is liberal and yet made more conservative points than a Dousche Bag Party member, and that is why they have to hate him and literally lie about him.

But lying to themselves is the true art of being a Baghead. Lying that they are conservatives.

Is President Obama engaging in 'class warfare'?

lol! what is really embarassing: the President apparently does not know the difference between capital gains taxes, and income taxes.

either he is ignorant, or thinks we are all stupid.

in any case, an Executive fanning the flame of public unrest is irresponsible

Almost from the very first day of his presidency, Obama has pitted American against American. This man is absolutely the worst president ever if for no other reason. He has brought this country way too close to civil war, and he's not backing down but instead ratcheting up the vitriol. This proposed tax will destroy small business in American, make no mistake about it. Obama is too stupid to understand the consequence of this action, or worse yet, he's deliberately behind the destruction of America.

What makes me go nuts, is the gall of the Tpubs to accuse the Pres. of class warfare. We have been subjected to the Tpubs class warfare since their "god" Reagan. It's insulting and so hypocritical, by the "mothers" of all class warfare. We are not ignorant, we do not live in a vacuum, and we get exactly what you have been doing to this nation, and we are damned tired of it.

And correct grammar would be what Spider? Instead of tea people, would you rather be called what you tea people call yourselves, teabaggers?

The "rich are the only people who can "afford to wage war. The poor and middle class are too busy feeding their families and trying to keep a roof over their heads.

Everyone knows that a "poorly" funded war equals certain DEFEAT!

This is why the RICH have been winning. They are the only people who can AFFORD the AMMUNITION against the rest of us.......DUH!

liberal logic:

if only our country had no rich people, we would be fine.

cut entitlements/loopholes............. middle class always pays, pays, and pays again and again! someone needs to come up with something without the bickering from all party lines...... if it's a drop in the bucket from the rich, so be it.. every bit helps........... when/where will the money from tax payers end??????? we just keep bailing companies out.... companies that go belly-up and then they file to reorganize????????? fantastic................. not........ get trump in office.. stands to reason.. he's a business man and knows foreign affairs!!!!!!!!!

Why is it liberals hate the rich so much? Every "rich" person I know, and that is not many, they are all liberals. Lawyers - liberal, Buffet - Liberal, Bill Gates - Liberal, Zuckermann - Liberal, Ben and Jerry's - Liberal, Pepsi - Liberal.

I don't see why there is an argument at all about this issue. It's the facts. The Bush tax cuts have been in place for over 10 years. Did they create Jobs? No they did not.

Corporate profits are at an all time high. They still have the Bush tax cuts which they have pocketed and have become richer. Have they created jobs? No they have not.

What's to argue? The facts speak for themselves. This country is in a mess and the rich keep getting a huge handout every year which has had zero effect at creating jobs.

Hey Mitch and Logic,

No one hates the rich. Please explain to us here on Newsvine why the rich should keep on receiving these huge Bush tax cuts and not pay their fair share. Please make sense of that for all of us. Oh, and where are the jobs those hefty tax cuts have created?

“It cries out for some rationalization,” said Sylvester J. Schieber, a former chairman of the Social Security Advisory Board. “Why should we ask somebody to sustain a system that’s unfair by any other measure in our society?”

Yeah, I guess that would be your argument if you didn't serve and your only "service" was civil service or in the private sector. Please do not talk to me about "what's fair" when the truth is that ANY service member not discharged for other than honorable reasons could have stayed and pursued 20 years, just like those of use who did complete 20 or more, I personally did 22 years... I arrived at Fort Bragg fresh from jump school in 1978 on the same day the 82nd was alerted for Zaire, Africa, sat on Green Ramp for a week... again I was there when we were alerted for Iran, we knew we weren't going but still, you never know... I was a member of the 2/75th Ranger Battalion and jumped into Grenada, back with the 82nd for Panama, Special Forces during the first Gulf War... fighting drug dealers in So. America in the 80's... yet nobody ever complained about it, we just did it. "Not fair" he says... so how fair is it that we sacrifice so much and the little that we do get in return people like you would take it from us?

I could respect his "opinion" more if had even been a boy scout for a week, he may know allot about he knows NOTHING about earning it. Check him out.

http://www.mrrc.isr.umich.edu/people/researchers/index_researcher_detail.cfm?aid=53

nwnative,

The "huge" tax break was a top rate that went from 38% down to 35%, how "huge" is that? Bush passed these tax cuts during the recession of 2001 - 2002 and we soon came out of that recession after the tax cuts.

I'm all for the rich paying a "fair" share, but I think it can better be done with tax reform that eliminates tax loopholes and write off's. G.E. paid 0 in taxes last year, explain that?

You please explain to me how small companies who account for 70% of the new hiring, and who have been struggling to stay in the black are going to be helped by higher taxes. Small companies are taxed like an individual and don't get all the breaks large companies like G.E. get. Also explain to me how higher taxes will not make companies send yet even more jobs overseas. In general explain how tax increases will "help" the economy? Everything I've read said it will at best bring in an extra 300 billion dollars, which doesn't even account for Obama's latest stimulus let alone the huge deficits we are running.

Derek - suggesting, in a public forum like this, that people should use "force" against the rich is pathetic and dangerous. Are you really wanting a mob to go through someone's house and hurt them and their wife and children, as you seem to be saying? If so, you need to get some serious help.

hardtostarboard

Almost from the very first day of his presidency, Obama has pitted American against American. This man is absolutely the worst president ever if for no other reason. He has brought this country way too close to civil war, and he's not backing down but instead ratcheting up the vitriol.

Let me know next time he calls for 2nd amendment solutions or puts reticals over districts held by republicans (and ONLY republicans).

Please give me these examples of class warfare you spew.

I don't understand how anyone can answer this poll with a "no" vote. Isn't "taxing the rich" the definition of class warfare? You may agree or disagree on whether it is right or wrong, but it absolutely pits different economic classes against one another.

Reading the posts in favor of increased taxes on the rich, it sounds to me like you have already waged war...

In the short term the president can give hell, in the long run he will get the boot.

_http://www.attackwatch.com/

NW Native.

The rich pay their fair, 33% federal income tax rate. Raising that will effect the outcome. The issue is:

1. Obama is focusing on the wrong tax line. Buffet is taxed 15% on the Capital Gains, not his Federal Income tax rate. Why is Obama not going after the 15% rate if he is going to use Buffet as an example?
2. Tax deductions/loopholes need to be closed to force the upper 2% income brackets to pay the 33% rate.

One of the loopholes targeted by the Obama administration is for donations. Is the government really better at spending money than the Red Cross, churches, etc?

Derek-381097

mitchj is LYING. Another Douschebag myth because BOO HOO you can't take an intelligent debate. Maher is liberal and yet made more conservative points than a Dousche Bag Party member, and that is why they have to hate him and literally lie about him.

But lying to themselves is the true art of being a Baghead. Lying that they are conservatives.

The guy who spews nothing but name calling is calling people out for not engaging in intelligent debate? PRICELESS

the rich have raped this country since the busch tax cvuts 2003 doesnt anyone remember how good we had it before this ,i say restore the 90s taxes and get this county back to work 20million people working again will create a tax surplus and this country can gain ground on repairing all our woes simple simple,let quit bickering and if we are going to keep on this track lets call it what it is TREASON for putting our country at this risk

nwnative

Hey Mitch and Logic,

No one hates the rich. Please explain to us here on Newsvine why the rich should keep on receiving these huge Bush tax cuts and not pay their fair share. Please make sense of that for all of us. Oh, and where are the jobs those hefty tax cuts have created?

They pay a HIGHER tax rate already. How is that "fair"?????

steve adams-4129293

the rich have raped this country since the busch tax cvuts 2003 doesnt anyone remember how good we had it before this ,i say restore the 90s taxes and get this county back to work 20million people working again will create a tax surplus and this country can gain ground on repairing all our woes simple simple,let quit bickering and if we are going to keep on this track lets call it what it is TREASON for putting our country at this risk

Hey Steve-

You do know that EVERYONE got a tax break from the Bush tax cuts, right? You know that 10 MILLION people (the poor) pay ZERO income tax since the cuts went into effect, right?

@ Steve

,i say restore the 90s taxes and get this county back to work 20million people working again will create a tax surplus and this country can gain ground on repairing all our woes simple simple

There was a little concept called NAFTA and Free Trade that was signed in '93. Unless you repeal that, jobs will not come back. They are plentiful, just not in the US. Honestly, can you really argue that simply changing the tax codes/rates will bring jobs back? With total disregard to Free Trade Agreements with countries like China?

cdahl,

Adding to your comment...I think there are 3 major types of changes we need to bring jobs back to the US: (1) tax overhaul, (2) regulatory overhaul, and (3) revising trade treaties to level the playing field.

We have complete control on the first 2, so these should be addressed immediately. I don't want to see another short-term bandaid - I want real tax and regulatory reform. The trade treaties will take more time since they will require international negotiations, but these negotiations need to start now.

JC, it will happen. Don't make like you don't know it and I am wishing for it either. Douschebag party members have thrown out the conservative concept of earning your way to wealth and embraced being 'deserved' little egomanica tyrants. Tyrants get overthrown when they act like a-holes. It is a matter of time, and not long either. This is history.

@ Ron.

I'm not sure how you lean, but it really doesn't matter. I'm on board with you to an extent depending on definition.

Regarding taxation. The only deductions I take are independents, state taxes paid and mortgage interest. I'm all for closing loopholes first, raising taxes second. The net effect for those singing the "fair share" toon is the same. The rich will pay more, if you take away the mechanisms for declaring less taxable income. If you just raise the rate, small business owners, like myself will have to decide if we should pay the higher tax, or start getting creative with our income. I'd rather just close the loopholes, less hassel.

Regulation. I have never had an issue with regulation as a manufacturer. Provided, that our own government, when passing regulation reform holds Chinese and other imports to the same standard. I disagree when we have to add to our cost of goods, and then compete against free imports that don't carry the burden.

Free Trade. I'm pretty sure you know where I stand. It is not so bad having Free Trade with like economies. But Free Trade with economies like China and Indonesia does not work for the US economically. For example, when was the last time anyone in the US complained about those darned Canadians taking our jobs, aye?

Thanks for the post.

obama reveals his new tax increase plan and the market tanks again. who would have predicted this! every time this clown opens his mouth and spews his class warfare rhetoric the market crashes. When are you folks going to realise he is bad news?

Wow, what a shocker. Derek can slew all kinds of durogatory insults based at those on the right and his posts don 't get collapsed. Gosh, I am totally surprised. *yawn*

Derek,

Can you try to post something without calling people names, or groups of people names? Your posts are disgusting, debate and disagree all you want, and you can throw in name now and then, but come on. Try some facts now and again instead of just the name calling.

DUANE-552524,

Nonsense.

The markets are falling because of the news coming out of the Euro zone concerning another Greek default. This proposal has been floated through the media for more than a week. If it was the driver for tanking the markets, they wouldn't have finished last week with the gains that they did.

http://money.cnn.com/2011/09/19/markets/markets_newyork/index.htm?iid=HP_LN

http://money.cnn.com/2011/09/19/news/international/greece_default/index.htm?iid=HP_LN

When are you folks going to realise that reality isn't a bad thing LOL

NWNative is right. The few low pay, middle class folks who still beleieve in trickle down call this class warfare. Never understood how a worker for average wages can get so worked up raging against people who say the welthiest among us should pay more. Do the people who make 1.5 to 4 mil gross a year - with a $1mil taxable after deductions and credits, really need some poor guy who needs a dental plan to explain thier case ? IF you're a worker - look around and see all the folks put out of work by the corporate bosses shifting jobs out of the country and getting maga rich for doing it. You still believe in trickle down ? How bout all you people who do not make a million a year in taxable income, be quiet for 90 days and let's see how many people above a million a year speak up and explain for themselves how this tax proposal is damaging. Let hear the argument coming from those affected .

This is class warfare!!! MATH IS A LIBERAL CONSPIRACY!

cdahl wrote:

But Free Trade with economies like China and Indonesia does not work for the US economically. For example, when was the last time anyone in the US complained about those darned Canadians taking our jobs, aye?

.

Well, at around 34 million citizens, Canada has never been much of a workforce threat. If they had over 1.3 billion citizens like China does, it would be a different story. (In other ways as well, most likely.)

.

John Post #1.5

You are on the right track. Those who have higher income existing debts gain the most when inflation hits. They are paying back their loan with cheaper dollars, assuming their income increases due to inflation. This tears up the middle and lower income earners, who probably will not gain increased wagehars making payments on debts harder because they struggle harder to keep a roof over the head and food in the stomach.

MATH IS A LIBERAL CONSPIRACY!

So is SCIENCE!

He's running out of money to purchase his presidency back so it's out to harvest fresh $$ from anybody that works!!Enough is enough. The greedy recipients of our hard earned tax money are always vying for an ever bigger piece of the pie to ante up their next entitlement. Then they extoll hatred and contempt for businesses and people whom have worked hard to have a more comfortable life and (ironically) have been paying the taxes to support these freeloaders.

Argue as you will, all this president knows and does is TAX & SPEND!!

Gee, I wonder if the question was biased?

A - Tax the rich to spare the rest of the country.

B - Tax the rich because they can afford it.

C - Tax the rich for some other reason.

Any way you slice it, it's "Class Warfare".

Even when the Democrats had a 'Super-Majority' in Congress, he couldn't get it past their own Party - So he's not really serious about this - he's just desperately seeking a campaign issue, since he'll get blasted on his economic/jobs record.

With a dismal record, all we're going to hear for the next 14 months is "I'm trying to get people back to work and cut the Deficit, but those mean Republicans don't want to help Americans - they just want to protect the rich".

Of course, the idea that the Republicans just might want to have a life of OPPORTUNITY instead of a life of DEBT for our children and grandchildren will never be pointed out at MSNBC.

IReadyou,

How many people are hired by the poor and middle class? It's not "trickle down" economics, it is called incentives, and being competitive. How do you expect companies in America to compete in the global market when our wages are higher, our regulations stricter, and our tax rates high? It doesn't take a college degree to figure out my job will be shipped overseas if the cost of my wages, healthcare, and taxes become to much. Yes, my employer is rich, and my guess is he plans on staying that way. He will cut pay and benefits, raise the prices of his products to pay the extra cost the government asks from him. What will we who have to pay the extra costs with less money do?

If we taxed the "rich" 100% would we be deficit free? The answer is NOOOOOO!!! So why do you libs keep bringing it up as if it is some kind of cure all. Cuts in spending have to happen no matter what your tax rate is.

This isn't about math. This is about how much you want the government to do. Liberals can identify no limit on federal authority, and that is scary.

Obama has had his chance to transform the USA. And he's mucked it all up. I will agree with Obama's goal, ostensible for him but sincere for me, for tax changes. Were he a real leader with a real spine he'd not play this class warfare garbage and instead ask for complete tax code reformation. I don't agree with Joe about the FairTax--if anything could be worse than what we have now it would be that.

We should eliminate all federal taxes on corporations. You pay those costs so let's cut out the middleman and pay them directly. We should eliminate all deductions and credits. Having the government pick who wins and who loses based upon how you spend your money leads to bad outcomes in EVERY instance. All income, from whatever source derived (inheritance, capital gains, wages, whatever) should all be taxed at the same rate though adjusted for inflation.

Do these things and businesses will quit leaving, the rich will pay what the fools on the left call their "fair share" (as if they don't pay the bulk of income taxes now), the tax base will be broadened, voters will better know what they actually pay for the government they elect, but, and most importantly by far, the government will no longer be picking winners and losers. We, the people, will.

No, Obama wants his class warfare. It's bad economic policy, but I get why he's doing this. Obama is a failed leader and our nation is being harmed for it. Sadly we aren't getting a clear message from republicans on this, at least it's not clear when filtered by the MSM. This is about wanting more government (liberals) or wanting less (conservatives). I want less, far less, because a smaller government means you and I and everyone we know are more free.

WTF is obama doing???

He accuses boehner of maintaining an attitude of "my way, or the highway" and then turns around threatening veto action on anything that crosses his desk not increasing taxes on the wealthy or agreeing with what obama wants.

He talks of "fair share" by singling out a small % of households who have more discretionary income than most by wanting to target deductions only for those over a given income level because he thinks they don't pay their "fair share"?

According to 2008 IRS data the top 1% pay over 14x in income taxes than the bottom 50% of tax payers.

http://www.ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html

It is all well and good that obama wants to follow norquist in tax reform, but let's do it across the board from the part time worker on up to the billionaires. Let's not target a specific group to try and pay for the sins of wanton and wasteful spending.

It is interesting to note that obama is obviously playing political theatre here by only wanting to allow the 2% wealthy cuts to expire in 2013. Oh wow, we get $800 billion in increased revenue over 10 years. Why not really be fair about it and allow all of his (bush) tax cuts to expire across the board? This has been estimated to amount to an increase in revenue over 10 years somewhere north of $3 trillion. Not the measley $800 billion.

Looks like obama is playing to the large voting base of the 98%ers that he hopes will vote for him for not raising taxes. As one of those 98%ers I see through his propaganda of "fair share" Tax reform is needed, but across all income levels.

Roy who...............................

DB Akron,

Another part of the story is how fast your income reacts to inflation. A lot of us get (if we're lucky) a cost of living wage about once per year. But that income change is based upon the year before and during that year our buying power weakened putting stress on our finances in the middle class and poor.

The higher the rate of inflation, the worse it hurts us. It got so bad in some countries (like Germany after WWI) that people were demanding their wages twice a day and their spouses would show up at lunch to hurry up and buy groceries before the inflation ate up the buying power by the end of the day.

The last report that I saw was that inflation was running at 3.8%. That should be shocking all of us and it should be reported more than it is. But what is even more shocking is that the Fed changed how inflation was calculated to include a lot of durable goods such as TV's etc. What really matters for the working poor and middle class is the basic necessities like food, clothing, shelter and in a modern society transportation. Durable good especially electronics tend to not react like neccessities to inflation. I don't know about anyone else but it sure feels like the inflation rates for food, electricity, gas, water and fuel is a lot higher than 3.8%.

Now here is the scary part, if the Fed continues to allow the prime interest rates to remain near zero the inflation rates are liable to skyrocket. Traditionally the Fed raises interest rates to curb inflation. Now if they do that after 4 years of a weak economy with rising debt in the public struggling to make ends meet, what does that mean for the average Jane and Joe on the street? That means higher minimum payments and even less for them to make ends meet. Add in all the rules that the Government has added rising costs across all sectors of the economy from farmers to manufacturing things could get very ugly very quickly.

I was in high school during the Carter years and frankly what we are seeing right now with a weakened economy and a widening money supply is pretty close to what was going on in the late 70's. I sure hate to see those days come back when short term high interest loans were over 30% like check advances or rent to own stores. It hurt a LOT of people I knew back then and it took some of them a decade or more to get back on track.

Hey GOP.

the coddle the Wealthy Plan== SUCK'S and Don't work ...!

Tax the Greedy already....................................................................................

Corporate taxes are double taxes for the owners. And depreciation makes it so the corporations can't deduct what they spend in a year. Hence, by boss personally earned $100,000 and paid $800,000 in taxes because the corp earned $2million because it had to capitalize most of its expenditures. I earned $50,000, and paid $900. That sounds fair, huh? And I didn't take all the deductions I could have.

Let's raise taxes on the middle class, too, since there is so many more of them and they don't pay their fair share of taxes.

nwnative

I don't see why there is an argument at all about this issue. It's the facts. The Bush tax cuts have been in place for over 10 years. Did they create Jobs? No they did not.

Actually, we were losing jobs prior to the 2003 tax cuts, thanks to the bursting dot com bubble and that little thing called 9/11. From 2003 through 2007 the GDP grew at > 4.1%/yr. and we created over 5M jobs. That's created, not "saved". I think we'd all like to see that kind of growth about now. The crashing housing market then collapsed the economy. Surely even you wouldn't blame the tax cuts for the housing collapse? That "perfect storm" of excessively low interest rates, CRA rules requiring sub-prime loans, Fannie & Freddie backing risky loans, and even local no-development (green) zones crashed housing and then the SEC'c incredibly bad timing on implementing fair-value accounting crashed banks. But just because job numbers are lower now than they were doesn't mean there is a cause and effect there. The tax cuts did what they were intended to do - they jump started GDP and jobs growth for several years. BTW, tax cuts did the same for Coolidge, JFK, Reagan, and even when Clinton cut the capital gains tax.

Feisty .

Is that the Same math the Corporations Use from the GOP to TAX DODGE................?

cdahl - overseas jobs won't come back until those jobs provide the same level of profit in the US as they do overseas. Think Apple or any other electronics company will again start manufacturing in the US without equivalent profit margins realized overseas?

Of course a global disruption in trade may hasten their return due to war.

Maybe the people who are 'better off' want to keep thier money coming in,by paying a little more in taxes so there will BE an America 5-10-20 years from now......no leadership at the top,no co-operation from congress ,and a senate that just"exists" under ol Harry.....We can't keep going this way.....Maybe there is a 3rd party candidate that can steal the votes from these clowns in 2012.........but we all know;it's whoever has the biggest checkbook from the lobbyists wins..........sad.......U.S.Army Disabled Veteran

Raise taxes, we need more money to bailout Europe.

mygirl1 - lmao! All hail our large IMF subsidy!

Jobs will never come to the US or stay in the US until we get to the root of our problems. Our economy will never improve unless we tackle difficult issues and come to fair and just resolutions.

For the issue of creating and keeping jobs in the UNITED STATES:

1. Correct the trade laws, creating favorable trade to the US.

2. Clean up the unions and their laws that destroy job creation! The unions are making in more and more difficult for American businesses to remain in US; i.e. Boeing. The unions would rather Boeing take their business to foreign lands rather than give SC much needed jobs. Why do you think so many states who are union based are in such a high unemployment category, while states such as Alabama are doing better. Why because the previous Governor Riley of Alabama actually worked by traveling to foreign countries and selling state as a great place to bring their business.

3. Instead of increasing taxes on the "rich" or American businesses lower the corporate taxes giving them at least the same rates as other countries.

4. Make Obama and whoever was responsible pay back the American tax payers for his failed Green jobs such as the half billion he loaned to a business he was warned would go bankrupt.

5. Before the president plans to increase taxes on American businesses and the rich he needs to first clean up his act and stop his wasteful......................and I do mean wasteful, foolish spending on jobs that will never pan out. He also needs to stop his bad policy making such as Obama care which will also kill jobs and give Americans more expensive and poorer healthcare. Get rid of some of his Czars and poor advisers, they are a waste of taxpayer's money.

6. Another way to help our economy is for Obama is to learn listening and better negotiating skills. In his first two years he completely cut Republicans out of any negotiations, he shut the door in their face. Now he needs their help and all he can do is blame them for all his mistakes. Even I know you can't belittle people and expect to get their help.

7. Democrats are the current party of NO! Why else has the congress passed so many worthy bills for job creation only to be told by Harry Reid the senate won't even look at it.

8. The last thing is that many Americans are wondering if this president really wants to help the economy improve or create jobs in this nation, or does he have unthinkable socialist plans to destroy our economy and our freedoms, if so I hope Americans will open their eyes and go to the polls in 2012 to vote him out of office. Even his own party is starting to see something is wrong with this president's plans for America, they are turning away from him like a cancer.

Obama says it’s not class warfare, its math. The problem is that it’s Obama math which translates into him sucking 1.5 trillion from people, 1.5 trillion that won’t be spent in the economy but will instead be used for more of his income redistribution policies. Since we’re on the subject of math, what are the consequences of the economy losing 1.5 trillion in spending other than more lost jobs?

One thing is certain, and that is if Obama is allowed to get his hands on this money, it will be poured down his various ideological rat holes towards his union support base, and when it’s gone, he’ll be back for ever more.

If Obama gets his way, the economy suffers, more jobs will be lost, and the recession that he claims we’ve emerged from will deepen. This is indeed class warfare and the left is promoting it, but in their usual deceptive manner, they are characterizing it as “Obama the populist”.

@ American.

Right on. That is the issue with "free trade", which is never free. It comes with the burden of fewer jobs, reduce benefits and pay for the middle class.

Tariffs can help.

Hey justwonderin,

I don't disagree. Our system is ossified--both sides hold steadfast to their positions because the supporters of each are entrenched and want those benefits, whatever they are. I think we should return to the founding ideals of this nation, the most fundamental of which is liberty through limited government. Every idea of this president serves to grow government and, as a consequence, reduce individual liberty. But the republicans seem to want the status quo more than they want a return to what we know worked.

I see people write on here about how high tax rates in the 50s, or even in the 90s, produced fantastic prosperity. This is fantasy, but we did have higher tax rates at those prosperous times. What the left, always a fan of more government, fails to see every time is the context in which those taxes were paid, and the share of the GDP they comprised. Rates go up, rates go down, but actual aggregate tax payments, as a percentage of GDP, have remained largely static. This means that people and firms adjust to the new reality they face. And it also means we are on a fool's errand if we think we can tweak the economy just the right way to get more money for the feds and a better and bigger economy. We'd do far better to let ourselves be more free and adapt to that new reality.

american-2051576,

Its easy to claim that the top 1% pay 14 times the taxes, when you make that statement entirely out of context.

Then reality kicks in:

The top 1% pay more "overall taxes", but they pay those taxes at a much LOWER effective rate. This is what it ultimately boils down to:

For every dollar the top 1% pays in taxes, they pay an average of 15 cents or less.
For every dollar the middle class pays in taxes, they pay an average of 28 cents.

Now ask yourself this:

Where would we be economically, and with respect to the overall national debt, if everyone who made in excess of $1million paid the same 28 cents per dollar as the average middle class worker for the last 10 years?

Until you can answer that question in a logical and mathematically factual manner, there is no defense for whats been allowed to happen for the past decade.

Where's that famous shared sacrifice the right wing nuts are always crying about?

The top 50% of earners pay 97% of taxes. Does that count as enough 'shared sacrifice'? Or would you prefer to bottom 50% pay no taxes at all?

You need only look at Greece's continued implosion to see that unfunded entitlement programs will eventually bankrupt a country. At some point you have to cut spending.

Tax job creators, you get fewer jobs created.

Tax investments higher and you get fewer people investing.

As someone noted above, it's class warfare not to tax the rich at the same rate as everyone else.

It's not class warfare, it's the inequality stupid!

P.S. I suppose you rabid collapsers know that the best way to get someones comment read by everyone is to collapse it, right?

A Marine Sargeant with 8 years service is taxed at a rate of 15%. The is the same rate a CEO or investor is taxed on capital gains.

That investor is taking a real risk though ...
And defending the economy, too, no doubt ...

You bet it is CLASS WARFARE. Take a guess which class has been favored ...

Wilberta Berry: You are absolutely right - "Everyone knows that a "poorly" funded war equals certain DEFEAT!"

We are a nation at war, with congressional approval. A poor economy could cause us to lose this war. The president should use his considerable emergency war powers to increase revenue by executive order! It's time to win the war on terror! Or is it against internal republican terror? It doesn't matter. Win the War! Fund the Wars! Bring in revenues whether congress agrees or not!

Hey Logic and other TBaggers,

Please when you post anything like myth and fact, put the source where you got the information, if you don't do that then it is useless.

The only class warfare I see is what republicans were doing for past 30 years since your messiah Reagan. And Union bashing is not class warfare? what you think there is unions for rich people? no. You just love attacking labor, well you attacking middle class. Yes jobs are very important, but there is no use of job if it don't pay you livable wages. Having health care and pension plans is not luxury, but necessity. What the point of having a job if you work 90 hours a week and still don't pay you enough for rent? There is solution to this problem of companies going overseas, closing loopholes and strong tariff system. I am against free trade agreements, it causes jobs to go overseas. why you guys whining about wealthy having to pay more money on taxes? it not like it going to make them broke, they will not even blink, most of them make so much money that it really not big issue. $10000 a month more for wealth that makes $20 million a month is not going to even budge his budget. I believe in progressive tax, the more you make the more you pay taxes. Flat tax is not going to work, if you tax everybody let say 20%: family that makes $20000, will have to pay $4000 in taxes, a Family that makes $200000 will have to pay $40000, and family that makes $2000000 will have to pay $400000 in taxes, Now who is really going to have big financial issues here? it is common sense here.

And stop whining about people who make like $15000 not paying taxes, they on food stamps and government help already. What they can possible pay? That will not be even enough to pay rent for year and live on and not to mention support the family. The only people are whining who never been in that situation and don't know it works.

LogicReguired

nwnative,

The "huge" tax break was a top rate that went from 38% down to 35%, how
"huge" is that? Bush passed these tax cuts during the recession of 2001 - 2002
and we soon came out of that recession after the tax cuts.

======================

.........Ummmm....re-think your moniker. The Bush tax cut for the top
income bracket was 4.6% (39.6 to 35), and 3% for the Middle Class (28% to 25% in
most cases). And the upper class also got a part of the Middle Class 3% cut because of our
graduated tax system, so they got an added benefit. Further, Bush cut the capital
gains rate down to 15%, and this primarily benefited the investor class, who by
no strange coincidence, are mostly the wealthy in this country (most Middle
Class persons, if they have any after expenses money left to invest for
retirement, usually do so via 401K or IRA investments, which do not benefit from
the capital gains tax rate). So yes, Bush did drop taxes for everyone, but the
wealthy got the biggest bang for the buck. Suggest you re-check your numbers the
next time you post.

Nerm_L wrote:

A Marine Sargeant with 8 years service is taxed at a rate of 15%. The is the same rate a CEO or investor is taxed on capital gains.

Nerm, it wouldn't make much sense for a person in the military to pay (in taxes) the entity (the government) that is paying him or her. That would make about as much sense as someone working at IBM paying a percentage of their paycheck back to IBM. :/

maksim80,

Please when you post anything like myth and fact, put the source where you got the information, if you don't do that then it is useless.

I post a lot of facts, almost all are very easy to find with a simple Google search. Newsvine's often don't allow links because you could just be someone trying to get people to go their sites (Spammers). Besides why don't you instead of just not believing my facts and calling me a "teabagger" do some reading and post your own facts or dispute mine? It gets old posting facts that just get ignored by the liberals who just keep talking the same line, (pay fair share, tax cuts cause deficits, tax cuts help the wealthy, ect...) Many of the post show how these things are B.S.

I believe in progressive tax

Good, because that is what America has. The top incomes pay MORE in taxes not just in dollar and cents but in percentage as well. I'll do the work this time - Google "search tax brackets for 2011" and you will see that the more you make the more they take. So the rich do pay more in taxes.

10% Bracket
$0 – $8,500

15% Bracket
$8,500 – $34,500

25% Bracket
$34,500 – $83,600

28% Bracket
$83,600 – $174,400

33% Bracket
$174,400 – $379,150

35% Bracket
$379,150+

Roadhouse Blues

.........Ummmm....re-think your moniker. The Bush tax cut for the top
income bracket was 4.6% (39.6 to 35), and 3% for the Middle Class (28% to 25% in
most cases). And the upper class also got a part of the Middle Class 3% cut because of our
graduated tax system, so they got an added benefit. Further, Bush cut the capital
gains rate down to 15%, and this primarily benefited the investor class, who by
no strange coincidence, are mostly the wealthy in this country (most Middle
Class persons, if they have any after expenses money left to invest for
retirement, usually do so via 401K or IRA investments, which do not benefit from
the capital gains tax rate). So yes, Bush did drop taxes for everyone, but the
wealthy got the biggest bang for the buck. Suggest you re-check your numbers the
next time you post.

Fine, so I got the number old top rate number wrong, but my post had NOTHING to do with who got a better tax cut, my point was that getting rid of the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy was only going to add a couple of percentage points to their tax bill and it would not fix our debt problem. Most people wouldn't call 4 - 5% percent a "huge" number and that was my point.

Second if you read the rest of my post you would see it's not that I'm trying to protect the "rich" from paying more in taxes it's just I think there is a better way to do it then simply raising the top rate which many rich get out of paying anyway with all the loopholes. So I added part my post that shows I'm actually for the "rich" paying their fair share.

The "huge" tax break was a top rate that went from 38% down to 35%, how "huge" is that? Bush passed these tax cuts during the recession of 2001 - 2002 and we soon came out of that recession after the tax cuts.

I'm all for the rich paying a "fair" share, but I think it can better be done with tax reform that eliminates tax loopholes and write off's. G.E. paid 0 in taxes last year, explain that?

What baffles me with these polls and the state of the country in the last two years is that when it come time to vote folk get mad with the dems and vote republican while they keep stickin it to us in the butt and are erasing the middle class on every level

Hey, I have an idea. Everytime Obama gives a campaign speech like he did today the stock market sinks. It seems like the economy can't take anymore of his vomit. I suggest Mr. O takes the amount of money the rich investors lose each time he speaks and pulls it our of his campaign war chest and sends it to the feds. This will actually allow himself to take from the rich without taxing them and not hurt his campaign coffers as he will still be getting replenished from the ultra-rich dems that he does not want us to know about. Also, do you think he perhaps makes just a scosh under 1 mil so he is exempt from the "fair share" part?

Representation without taxation is as offensive to taxpayers as taxation without representation. Patrick Henry had it right!

Some news for all of you righteous CHRISTIANS. The US Census has released its latest findings on income levels in the US: 1 in 6 Americans now lives below the poverty line. The majority of those are children, you know the children who you religious morons did not want to be aborted. And you right wing nut cases, who supposedly follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, want to eliminate what few programs there are to help the poor.

Where is your supposedly Christianity? Christ fed the poor, he did not leave them out to starve. You want to eliminate all abortions, what about the programs to feed and maintain those children after they're born. When is your hypocrisy going to stop!? When are you double-tongued sadists going to stop fighting for the wealthy and start showing concern for America.

All you Bible thumping hypocrites are good at shouting is how the libies spend money for the lazy. How about practicing what's in that book? You know, the part about helping the poor and disabled, or does your Bible omit that part? What about your stubborn defense of the rich and the gluttonous, at the expense of the masses? When will you be happy, when the poverty line crosses the 50% mark and open revolt breaks out against the self-indulgent?

This is the United States of America, supposedly the richest country in the world. How do you like living in a country where 1 out of 6 human beings is living in poverty? How proud are you of those statistics? But, then, why do I bother with you. Your skulls are so thick and full of hatred of who knows what, you can't see anything past your nose. The ME, ME syndrome is so well entrenched that a jack hammer beating against your skull will make no dent what-so-ever. Truly, a pathetic, obtuse lot.....

The republicans have been waging class warfare on the middle class for decades.

Logicrequired, absolute lies on the Bush tax cuts.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/30/AR2010073002671.html

They only provided short term gains, they benefited the rich, they added to the deficit.

It would be class warfare--but the Tea Party has no class.

But it wasn't class warfare when Bush gave tax cuts to the rick. Huh?

You make very good Coffee cups that costs $1.00 Each.

• total labor cost (pay + benefits) is 38 cents,
• materials are 38 Cents,
• production costs are 9 cents per cup
• transporting the product to market costs 3 cents
• future expansion is set at 5 cents per cup
• Leaving 7 cents per cup profit.
• Taxes takes 2 cents of the profit leaving you with 5 cents in profit per cup to cover your 75 cent per cup investment in plants and equipment.

Now the foreign competition makes a competing cup and starts selling .

• Their labor cost is 8 Cents per cup,
• materials still cost 38 Cents,
• production costs are 7 cents (there are no polution and safety standards)
• They too build in money to expand in the future of 5 cents per coffee cup
• transportation costs are 30 cents per cup so they can sell the cups for 96 cents per cup and make a 7 cent profit and thier government only takes 1 cent per cup so they get 6 cents per cup profit and their investment is only 60 cents per cup for facilities.

The US business person cuts their price to 95 cents to hold market share. The business person lays off enough people to reduce labor costs to 37 cents per coffee cup and gives up 2 cents per cup in the money to be invested in expansion. Government still gets it share in taxes now makes 3 cents per cup.

NOW our government decides that we aren't clean enough or safe enough - even though we are by far cleaner an safer than the foreign competition. This increases the production costs another 2 cents per cup. and that every business should contibute more for healthcare. The increase in cost to the company is expected to be 3 to 8 cents per cup.

To top that off this administration thinks companies will want to expand when the market is sluggish, new facilites are cost are increasing faster than the inflation rate, they have regulated loans to higher down payments, More sales will mean even higher taxes, If the sell investments to expand production the government want to take 10 - 15 cents more per every dollar of increase moved, and the government is sucking all the available money for loan in the world to give to people who don't work or gave the politicians campaign donations.

Too many people on this site display thinking that is can be found nowhere in the REAL WORLD.

Large Corporations have engaged in class warfare for years against workers.. Gap between profits verses wages has widened for 20 plus years. All to satisfy wall street and piss on the workers. I own stock and would be happy to reduce my share price in exchange for fair wages as should all human beings. Greed is good to a point, we have reached that point.

Obama refuses to compromise with the GOP, it's about time

cdahl - what happenned to the us economy after the smoot-hawley tariffs were enacted should be a warning to all who think tariffs are a good thing. the best fair trade deals come about when one party has a product or service that another can't produce or can't produce competitively.

alanO - you really need to put you post 1.80 into proper context of what is the definition of "fair".

"fair' implies everyone pays the same rate. Our progressive tax system works on the idea that the richest pays the most. This is what our current system does the rich contribute more in income taxes than others with less income. The tax rates vary only as a result of what is legally allowed by the IRS.

No matter how one feels about deductions or loopholes, someone sold a member of congress or the president that it would be a good thing for the country, and enough politicians thought of it as good so that it was passed into law. The answer is tax reform.

You know the drill, the tea party has been saying this the last two years. You know tea party as in Taxed Enough Already party. First the tea party woke the republicans up about it (no new taxes or increases and meaningful tax reform NOW)). Now a few democrats are also awakening and obama is still half asleep at the wheel.

The last major tax reform act was passed in 1986 with bipartisan support. It was passed on the premise of broadening the tax base. Something obama has no apparent wish to do as he targets a small minority for chump change of $800 billion vs taking on the whole group to achieve over about $3.5 trillion. Smart from a "give me your vote in exchange for no new taxes" but bad, very bad for our economy.

If one wants to yell out " fair" then do it across the board. if you don't like how deductables work, change the tax code, if you don't like how about 48% of households pay no income tax because of earned income tax credits and other deductables then institute a minimum tax.

For obama it is not about fairness, but how can I get votes in 2012. I have no illusions about his job bill or his wanting to increase taxes for the 1 or 2 %ers. Both are merely "vote getters" with little to suggest that they will create long term growth. A short term bump in GDP growth perhaps to fake out the populace that his jobs bill has merit, but that will be it, just like what the 2009 stimulas did.

It does remain to be seen what increasing payroll tax cuts will do by adding a little more pocket change into taxpayer pockets.

Nerm L 1.84

I see you’re employing that extremely stupid left wing analogy by attempting to compare capital gains to income. The most egregious flaw in this deceptive logic is that you neglect to mention that the tax on capital gains is on money that was already taxed as income before it was invested. Anyone that takes but a moment to consider this will immediately conclude the analogy is absurd.

I seem to remember a bunch of attacks on Americans -- Embassies in Africa, discos in Berlin, barracks in Lebanon, USS Cole and the World Trade Center twice before we made it policy to stop them over there rather than in our backyard. I do believe the started it first.

DB Akron

You make very good Coffee cups that costs $1.00 Each.

• total labor cost (pay + benefits) is 38 cents,
• materials are 38 Cents,
• production costs are 9 cents per cup
• transporting the product to market costs 3 cents
• future expansion is set at 5 cents per cup
• Leaving 7 cents per cup profit.
• Taxes takes 2 cents of the profit leaving you with 5 cents in profit per cup to cover your 75 cent per cup investment in plants and equipment.

DB...you are missing an important factor of doing business in the United States....product liability.

China does not acknowledge responsibility for the damages their products cause to third parties, where in the United States, a company is responsible for those losses. On a lot of products, this cost is relatively low due, but on a lot of food products, drugs, chemicals and higher exposure products, this is a major cost of doing business.

Until we start demanding that foreign manufacturers accept US court decisions regarding damages caused by their products, the overseas companies will hold an unfair advantage.

Since there seems to be some controversy about how much of the national wealth the richest americans

I looked online.

This is the latest I could find, 4/30/10, The rich are probably doing even better now.

Frank Rich, Wall Street Journal:

"According to his analysis, the top 1% held 34.6% of all national wealth in 2007. By Dec. 31, 2009, they held 35.6%.

Meanwhile, share of national wealth held by the bottom 90% fell to 25% from 27%...."

http://blogs.wsj.com/wealth/2010/04/30/top-1-increased-their-share-of-wealth-in-financial-crisis/

The rich are paying historically low rates of income tax. Their share of the revenue is high not because they pay high rates of tax but because they are getting such a huge share of the national wealth.

Here's the graph. Note that they payed low amounts of tax in the 1920's (25%) leading up to the collapse of the economy and they were paying the highest in the 1950's (90%) when we were in an economic boom, the famous Post WWII economic expansion. They payed 70% in the 1960's when unemployment was low and the standard of living was rising for most americans.

This is the latest I could find, 4/30/10, The rich are probably doing even better now.

Frank Rich, Wall Street Journal:

"According to his analysis, the top 1% held 34.6% of all national wealth in 2007. By Dec. 31, 2009, they held 35.6%.

Meanwhile, share of national wealth held by the bottom 90% fell to 25% from 27%...."

http://blogs.wsj.com/wealth/2010/04/30/top-1-increased-their-share-of-wealth-in-financial-crisis/

The rich are paying historically low rates of income tax. Their share of the revenue is high not because they pay high rates of tax but because they are getting such a huge share of the national wealth.

Here's the graph:

http://static8.businessinsider.com/image/4e1c5b08ccd1d50779000000-547/and-now-finally-a-reminder-of-where-that-top-bracket-35-sits-in-the-history-of-top-tax-brackets-its-very-low-lets-take-a-closer-look-at-that-history.jpg

Note that they payed low amounts of tax in the 1920's (25%) leading up to the collapse of the economy and they were paying the highest in the 1950's (90%) when we were in an economic boom, the famous Post WWII economic expansion. They payed 70% in the 1960's when unemployment was low and the standard of living was rising for most americans.

I'm still waiting for the republithugs to create JOBS. The rich have been skating as far as taxation is concerned-- as well as everything else. It has been said that if the rich get richer they will create jobs-- yes, but when. The rich just keep getting richer and the middle-class don't get anything but poor.

I'm not going to hold my breath until the republithugs start jobs creation-- the only way that will happen is the day I take my final breath and I'm in no real hurry to do that. I have too much to do right now-- work four evenings a week, three hours an evening. What I am doing is called "volunteering" so I am not giving any money to line the pockets of the rich any more than they are getting lined.

If it isn't class warfare we certainly need it! It's gotten to the point where I actually view Teabagging Republicans as the enemy... not some poor peasant in the middle east. Get em Obama!

Good Morning Tom, I wonder what will it take to wake them up, at this point as I see it, it is not enough to vote, in 13 months or so, may be too late.

Over the past 10-15yrs we have lost so much, with the bulk of manufacturing jobs shipped overseas during the BUsh administration they are not coming back. Meanwhile back in Washington, as the Republicans work to do nothing, until the next election, the country further crumbles and nothing gets done no matter how hard the President wants or tries to shame that sorry lot in congress.

Then I read that Andrew Breibart, fantazises about killing liberals, and Pastor Hagee (Perry supporter) says hate is the only thing that will save America. Where do we go from here?

Tom, the "sleeping giant" should be people being offended by our lack of representation in DC(both parties)! If our government would stop believing that THEY can better use OUR money(taxes for programs, get re-elected, growth of government and dependency on government) than we can(rent, food, education, stuff) we might actually get to take home MORE and do what we want with it- which would create jobs because we are consumers! I don't think the federal government has a better life plan for me than I do- all I see them doing is wasting more and more of my(my kids, their kids) money on things we don't need, we can't afford, and only serve to give them more power. Then they spend WAY more than they take in, get shocked (when not in power) to blame the other party for the growing problem, and when they get back in power they spend the SAME way. Our debt is almost at GDP, where is the logic there? We'll be spending all of what we take in on our debt, not our living. That's the problem.

On the job front- yes, we've shifted manufacturing jobs overseas- in good part to the American people wanting to pay low prices (Walmart, Target, etc.). So the choice is- would you be willing to pay more of your income on goods and services because they are made here (higher wages, benefits)? If so, you can do it right now by slowing down your buying and find out what you want, who makes it here, and supporting the smaller, local stores in buying those USA products. Yes, you will pay more, but you will be countering the trend.

It's not a Bush or Obama problem, it's a systemic requirement. You buy stocks/mutuals/401k to earn you more money from what you put in. To do that companies need to make more money ALL THE TIME. They don't turn the investors a profit, the money goes elsewhere. You don't want to loose money with these companies, so you endorse them making more money (for you).

You can't blame one side of the coin while happily taking the other side of the coin.

How are you being screwed? It is easy enough to say it, but please explain how? Because they have the drive and initiative to get off of their butts and earn a living. Because the people who sit at home and have to do nothing, need to get up and do something?

My understanding of the Buffett Rule is that one is supposed to call for higher taxes while fighting tooth and nail against paying $4billion in back taxes.

Would it not be easier to call it the Hypocrisy Rule? How about the Pull the Wool Over Their Eyes Rule? The Boy, Are They Idiots Rule? The Say Anything To Get Reelected Rule?

Too bad Obama is following the Spend Them Into Oblivion rule

Except that the rich have the gold coins and everyone else has plug nickels. There is a difference between Democrats and Republicans, we just need our representatives to fight harder for us.

Tom:

Is the problem that you've been screwed by "the rich", or is it possible that you just don't have the talent and ambition to be a success yourself?

I know a few people I'd call rich (all in the $10 to 30 million range), and they got there by working their arses off for 20+ years to grow an business, and eventually selling it for a big payoff. During that time, when the company was having troubles, they took out 2nd and 3rd mortgages on their personal homes to make payroll, and once took a 20% pay cut to avoid laying off more people. They also commonly worked 60 to 100 hour work weeks and rarely took vacations.

From what I've seen, most people that are rich, have talent and ambition and a very, very strong work ethic. I've also known a lot of intelligent, talented, ambitious people that didn't make it because they only wanted to work 40 or 50 hours a week - which doesn't cut it.

Go to a GOP Convention

Be ready to meet Palin & Bachmann CLOWN--Clones & see what run's The G O--ME............

Then you will See The FAKE Fiscal Games in action.!

No Jo- Absolutely correct. The "Buffet" effect is that he- 1. Claims to pay less than his secretary (because she pays INCOME taxes while he pays CAPITAL GAINS- very different taxation %-wise), 2. Claims that he should pay more. Why?(see 3), and 3. His company Birkshire Hathaway owes more than $2 billion in BACK TAXES. He's in arbitration for 2002 taxes right now, so 2010 won't be in arbitration until 2018(about). He's trying to cut a lowball deal for his 2002 taxes, WHILE telling everyone that he should be taxed more!? The answer- He's trying to be buddies with the President and cut himself a deal, while endorsing the Presidents interests in taxing the wealthy. -Joe

Wisconsin GOP greed started the sleeping giant to Begin to arise;

Thank's GOGREED............................

...................................................Democracy....................................................

......................The Absence of Hereditary or arbitrary class distinctions or priviledges ............................

Merriam Webster Dictionary

The truth......the whole truth.......And Nothing But,,,,,, the TRUTH....................................................

The GOP Missed this or are Bald faced Liars.......................................?????

JoeNY,

I still respect Buffets investment advice and I respect him for the charitable contributions he's made, but I'm very disappointed when it comes to his politics - especially concerning tax rates.

Old GOP (doubtful): Do you ever have a point or do YOU just lIKE to Type nonsensical garbage?

You are right Tommy the wroking middle class is going to awaken and decide they are tired of paying taxes while the majority collect welfare SS and lay on their butts and do nothing. Who do they support politcally, big goverment and the democrats. that is why they want big government to do everything for them, come on big government wipe my butt I'm to lazy and its your job. I don't have anything against the rich they earned theirs and deserve to keep it. I've been working 40 years my friend and I know what happens when taxes get increased with a democrat in office, it doesn't get any easier for me. The increased revenue is used to buy more votes from the free loaders.

JoeNY

Tom, the "sleeping giant" should be people being offended by our lack of representation in DC(both parties)! If our government would stop believing that THEY can better use OUR money(taxes for programs, get re-elected, growth of government and dependency on government) than we can(rent, food, education, stuff) we might actually get to take home MORE and do what we want with it- which would create jobs because we are consumers!

Then why did the economy tank in 2008 with taxes being at a historical low and unemployment shooting up to 9%? According to your logic - the 2000's should have been crazy beneficial to everyone and unemployment should have been at 1%.

Mike,

Unemployment was low most of the last decade. It will never hit 1% since someone is always moving from one job to another...I think "full employment" is about 4.5%.

As to why the economy tanked in 2008 - economies are cyclical. No economy on earth continually expands year after year. As an expansion happens, parts get out of synch and eventually something tips the scale and we have a recession.

It's just more chimpanzee politics.

Smack somebody else in order to draw attention away from his own inadequacies. There aren't enough so-called "rich" on the planet to cover O's spendthrift ways. And you know what else?

The "rich folk" can move. Hey, they've been heading to Canada and Australia long ago. Hell, China is a better bet than here.

Tax and spend....tax and spend....print more money....print more money. For anyone of you that haven't the benefit of an education in basic economics, well, this shall only bring about out of control inflation, with an ever deflated dollar, and stagnation.

Dystopia, here we come!

Joes - you might be correct if a bunch of other billionaires were not also saying that the way capital gains are taxed is just wrong and unfair. You guys feel free to make your billions on someone else's back please and then pay your fair share. It gets old listening to you guys defend people who do nothing but extract capital without putting anything back into the system which is exactly what these billionaires are doing. They scam, they lie, they convince good people that they are working hard when the fact is they are hardly working and what they are working on is extracting wealth from America and dumping it in third world countries so they can extract their resources to manufacture cheep goods, which I'm sure you too have no trouble with going out and purchasing. You are both lost. You've drank the kool-aid and no once can convince you of the error in your opinions.

So, if an investor (you or me) wants to move his investment from one stock (under-performing company, for example) to another company (that may be better managed and performing better), he should be punished and taxed at a significantly higher percentage for simply moving his investment and trying to manage/protect it wisely? -- or, in other words, if a company he invests in can't rip him off, the government should instead -- so that he has significantly LESS to invest after the sale? What sense is that? How does that benefit the economy of your State or the companies in which you are trying to invest and protect your hard-earned money?

This is why the Framers of the Constitution were agasint these kinds of taxing shemes, which they made plain was "private oppression [tyranny]" -- i.e. attack on classes.

The "framers" depended on having a population with moral values, we no longer have that here. They never envisioned a segment of the population who had no issue with ripping off another segment. And yes, if you make a financial GAIN on that transaction, you should pay the same rate everyone else does, just like you get to deduct your loss, but you guys don't like to talk about that part. The market is designed to rip off the many for the gain of the few. Look who took it on the chin in 08 and who got bailed out. My 401k when to the crapper but large investors didn't really loose anything at all. And you wonder why people say No Way to privatizing social security and subjecting the only safety net we have to the whims of a few large scale investors. The simple fact is that a large segment of this population feels that if you are using money to make money you should pay the same rate of taxation as the guy who actually has to sweat for his gain.

Book em == Nobody has a clue What u are about.?

Do u.?

Mike- "Then why did the economy tank in 2008 with taxes being at a historical low and unemployment shooting up to 9%?"

The economy tanked because the federal banking committee changed the regulations and requirements on home mortgage requirements. They demanded that banks issue loans to people whom couldn't afford them and would otherwise not qualify for those loans. Then those loans were bundled in to mortgage backed securities which were given ratings like bonds. They chose not to oversee the program and we later found out that many "bad" loans were being bundled with "good" loans and being granted an "AAA" rating(best). Those securities were traded, bundled, traded, etc. Freddie and Fannie were intimately involved as well. Simply put- the bubble popped (countrywide, etc.) and the value of the housing market was completely undermined. All of the mutual funds and companies that invested in those bonds lost massive amounts of value. The situation caused a banking freeze, which stopped manufacturing and investment loans, which stopped new production, etc. etc. No money, no construction loans and bonds, no growth money, no value...... I hope you got the picture by now. Small, medium, and large business got caught without money and the ability to get money.

People may not have a clue what I am about, but at least they can understand my points. Your gibberish is equivalent to the nonsensical ramblings of a toddler.

So tom, yreka, how many jobs has your business created? Sounds more like you are just jealous because somewhere along the line someone made the decision to take a risk and innovate.

Is this the same "math" that missed the latest cost overrun with ObamaCare of $500 billion associated with insuring the spouses and children of new entitlement recipients?

Is this the same "math" that Kathleen Sebelius was forced to acknowledge in March of 2011 under oath that the democrat controlled government double-counted $529 billion in “savings” associated with the implementation of the legislation?

Is this the same "math" that indicated now defunct alternative energy company Solyndra, which received $535 million in “stimulus” loan guarantees from the Obama administration, was a prudent investment?

America can not afford more Obamath.

aliveinsd,

Your very logical rant is falling on deaf ears (except mine). Most post's here today buy into this crap. Robin Hood economics. Take from the rich/(anybody)..............give to the government? LOL!!!

Mark::: You said something about people sitting at home need to get up and find something to do. I bet the rich bitches, when they get my age, sit around on their fat butts and do nothing. I am 77 years of age (not "old"), am not in the best of health, find it difficult at times to get my legs and feet to cooperate. But that isn't stopping me from volunteering-- four evenings a week, three hours an evening.

Bet the rich bitch females regardless of their age don't get up off their butts except to go to some social shindig. They are worthless!

Don't anyone ever say anything about people having to get up and do something. Some people are unable to work, some people are not employable.

Historically taxing the rich, so to speak, has suppressed jobs. I'm not the only one who remembers when millionaires paid a 70% tax rate. There are a lot more jobs now than then.

Many millionaires own businesses whose workmen produce value higher than their cost. The businesses grow as capital is gained through re-investment. The problem of taking more tax from businesses is when you take tax away, there is less investment capital to for growth. Growth means hiring new employees.

A business with cash capital on hand will consider it "insurance" so that in a slow economy they will not have to lay off existing workers. This is called saving existing jobs. Extracting tax from businesses worsens the possibility to save a job in a downturn because less payroll back up account money is there.

The Administration must be very careful when taxing not to create an lesser economy.

Hi amused,

You are simply wrong about what we want to talk about. Conservatives, generally, want major tax reform. I can only speak for myself, but I want all forms of income treated the same, but all should be adjusted for inflation if they predate the current tax year. We need to have a way to prevent the government from inflating the currency in order to raise tax rates after all.

What I don't find in the left is any sincere effort to even address this issue where the outcome could be a more simple and less class-based code. I think the reason for this is that the left thrives on class division and discontent. You can read more in the first thread, but I think you have conservatives all wrong.

Republicans are destroying America with their Head up their Ass politics. We all know the rich have to be taxed, Regan knew that.

8 years of Bush politics haven't worked so why would we want that again

The current capital gains tax rate is 15%. That is the same tax rate paid by an E-5 soldier with 8 years service.

Someone that owns a business and puts in 100 hrs per week have it easy compared to that Sargeant on duty 24/7.

Yep, that business owner is taking real risk ...
And defending our economy, too, no doubt ...

The audacity of people! The "rich" pay around 70% of taxes. So that is a smaller group of people who have earned their ways to the top paying for everyone else. I don't want to live in a country where if I get promoted that I make less money than I did before. It's not the millionaires that get penalized the most. It's the people under the CEOs that get most of their wages taken from them. I'm not saying tax the "poor" more. I'm saying this whole system of tax the ones who have worked their way through this market is ridiculous!

I think the Middle class is awake and there will be hell to pay this 2012 election, enough with the BS that these people create jobs, the jobs they create is in another country NOT ours and if they don't create it here there should be no breaks in taxes !!!!!!!!!!!! They keep whistling the same tune but I don't see the jobs, and as for the GOP they got elected on that same song and dance, WHERE"S THE JOBS GOP ....

The issue is not needing more money via taxes

The issue is cutting out the crap, social programs, pork, wars with no end.

I mean seriously, every hooker I have ever spoke to is 5x smarter than this POTUS. He just does not want to make Fed Gov small. He does not want to hurt his contributors.

Give me a law that says candidates cannot take campaign contributions over 1 M usd total and then we have a start to correcting this. Until DC is burned or we all just stop paying taxes the moronathon continues.

In case you people haven't noticed ,our money isn't worth the paper it's printed on. As we print more and more. The depression is coming ,you can tax the hell out of everyone. While you've been arguing between yourselves there is more and more talk on using someone else's currency to fund the world. Even now some places in the US are not taking US currency, and some places overseas as well. Prices have been climbing, have you bought groceries lately? Look at the exchange rate. It's no longer if, but when. Over spending comes with a price as well as greed. Divided we fall!!!

Show me the spending cuts!

Like a child out of control I want you to show me that you have fiscal responsibility!

Prove to me first that you can budget yourself from over spending. Quit living like elitist aristocrats off of the peoples labor.

Class warfare is telling the middle class and working poor you must lose all your jobs and pay more.

But the rich should not be taxed one more dime. Leave the Bush tax cuts in place because they create zero jobs which is good for the United States. Fat Chance Tea Baggers.

"But investment income is taxed at 15 percent and Buffett has complained that he and other wealthy people have been "coddled long enough" and shouldn't be paying a smaller share of their income in federal taxes than middle-class taxpayers.

What's missing from the story is the REASON for a lower capital gains tax. Here's an example;

Suppose an investor put $100,000 into a long-term investment in 1970 and sold it 10 years later for $150,000. How much in taxes should they pay?

Well, most people would say they should pay taxes on the $50,000 gain at their normal rate - say 30%, for a tax bite of $15,000.

But here's the reality - because inflation over those 10 years was 53%, his $150,000 investment is now worth only $70,500 in REAL purchasing power terms and then to make them pay an additional $15,000 in taxes would net them $55,500 on a $100,000 investment. This would be an ACTUAL LOSS of $44,500. You could take any 10 year period over the last 40 years with this scenario and the results would be very similar – No REAL gain that would justify the risk.

Everyone recognizes that we need long-term investments in plant and equipment to provide for economic growth and jobs, but what investor in their right mind would make those long-term investments if they're going to lose half of the investment in 'REAL' terms?

PS - Here are two other things to consider with the capital gains tax rate;

1 - If someone invests long-term and then sells, the sudden gain upon sale would be taxed at a much higher rate because of the 'graduated tax scale' (The 'rich' pay a much higher tax RATE on income).

2 - Most of the 'rich' who get capital gains dividends have already paid about 35% taxes at the corporate level before the remaining profits are distributed as dividends, so the extra 15% in taxes at the dividend level means that the total taxes paid on the income earned ends up being closer to 50%. Buffett never mentions this.

Bottom line - Just how much do we want to discourage investments in economic growth and job creation? That's why businesses don't want to 'invest' in economic growth in America right now, and why the 'rich' people are investing in FOREIGN economic growth and jobs.

Obama's 'class warfare' rhetoric sounds 'fair' when he leaves out the details, but is it REALLY fair, and what would be the consequences for economic growth and jobs?

This is one of those "Duh" moments.

And if pitting virtually everyone against the 'rich' (who also happen to be the job creators) isn't 'Class Warfare', then what is? Obama's 'community organizer' history is coming through loud and clear - It appears that Obama was listening to the 'Rev. Wright's sermons' after all.

None of your business-3459143

I don't want to live in a country where if I get promoted that I make less money than I did before

Where do you live and who are you?? ANYONE who has broken their back working overtime on an hourly wage scale KNOWS that the more you work, the more taxes taken out.

For example:

Work 40hrs, paycheck= $500.00

Work 60hrs, paycheck= $700.00

Work OT, bust your butt for the company, screw your paycheck....... Not saying it's the company's fault, but it is more proof that those on a larger salary with maybe a contract or yearly salary DO NOT pay equal taxes. This combined with the deductions and loopholes that are allowed to be taken by someone who has a higher income......it's just not fair. The little man works just as hard or harder than middle and upper management. BTW, I am no commie, but fair is fair

Even if you frame it as class warfare its true.

ROY WILSON-336103

ROF'IN LLLLLL @Who has $100,000.00 to put into a LTI?? You, my friend are lost!! People are worried about paying their monthly bills and putting food on the table at this point... You need to put that post where it belongs, on the Comedy Central boards!!!

@ROY WILSON -- Hogwash!!! A CEO is compensated with stocks so they can avoid paying 'income' taxes. Amazingly being compensated with stocks is not income.

That CEO is taxed at 15% as capital gains - even though it was actually compensation for services rendered. The CEO took no risk - they supposedly did their job for compensation.

Someone earning $8,500 to $34,500 in wages is also taxed at a rate of 15%. A waitress has the same tax liability as an CEO? A Marine Sargeant with 6 to 8 years service is also taxed at a rate of 15%.

How does your 'investor' take a bigger risk than that Marine Sargeant?

THAT'S the dirty reality that your argument tries to hide. If it is CLASS WARFARE, take a guess which class is being favored ...

Did everyone forget Bush gave the Rich a tax cut? Yes they have forgotten. And did they forget President Clinton had a surplus when he left office. Then Bush left us with a big asssethole and in the debt? Of course you forgotten. This is a reminder. They want you to be stupid and dump, they want you to blame it on race, they want you to hate black and brown people, they want you to hate the world, they want half of the voting block Republicans to protect the rich. Those that buy into the propaganda of racial hatred are now a people of God no matter which one you believe in. The poor is the most vulnerable in our society. Like we protect children we must and it is our (Country) obligation to do so.

Yes you will always have people faking poor ness just to get a handout. We should put verification in place to prevent few as possible from gaming the system. Where there is money there is crooks.

The CEO, millionaires, billionaires, Multi-National Corporations have all the money.

The 'bottom line' is that who can make better use of their funds;

Businesses that invest in economic growth and jobs? or

Government that invests in welfare, 'wealth redistribution', and 'Solyndra' type projects?

Are businesses 'investing in economic growth now? NO, but the reason is that they may have to save more money for income taxes, and who knows how much more Obama will hit them with in new taxes and costs for regulations (EPA, etc.).

Obama is desperate, as even his core constituency is rejecting him. Class warfare is all he has left.

So he wants to do math?

The top 1% earn about 20% of all income (rounding up) and pay 40% of all income taxes.

Would you liberal whiners like to match that %? Yeah, thought not.

When will the losers of the world understand that giving money to the government will never make their lives better, and if they just got to work, and added some creativity, they could have the life they want? It certainly does not require being a millionaire in order to be happy, but why shoot someone else down if that's what does it for them?

Obama is a fraud. History will not be kind to him, Pelosi or Reid, as they have been the leaders of this precipitous decline.

why do the middle class and lower income citizens have deal with Discrimination"prejudicial treatment of an individual based on their membership in a certain group or category. It involves the actual behaviors towards groups such as excluding or restricting members of one group from opportunities that are available to another group" in this case the upper class , also noting the same class that driven by greed put us in this mess in first place(no I don't me the House in this case, but most fall into the upper class)WOW wait I see the problem now they would be putting taxes on themself

Unbelievable-895817 "ROF'IN LLLLLL @Who has $100,000.00 to put into a LTI??"

A lot fewer number of people, thanks to Obama's policies. That's why we have less economic growth and jobs.

Obama's solution - take more away from the job creators.

Hi Solutions,

Help me understand your point of view. Income taxes (we are only talking federal in this thread so please avoid any state or local tax talk) are for funding the general budget. FICA taxes are for dedicated programs, like Medicare and SS, and they are both income limited (make enough and they phase out) and benefit limited (Medicare in how much they will pay for services and SS in the max benefit allowed. Other taxes, like excise taxes, are program specific too--fuel excise taxes are a good example.

So, are you arguing that all other taxes besides income taxes should decrease so you pay less for the programs you want and that the "rich" should pay more to make up the difference? Or perhaps instead you are arguing that the "rich" should pay more regardless of other taxes so that you can have more free stuff given to you by the government? I don't mean to denigrate your position since I don't really know what it is. My position is simple.

End all corporate taxes. End all federal taxes but for income taxes, and all income, no matter where you get it, is taxed at the same rate (adjusted for inflation). End all deductions and credits. I believe that you are better at spending or saving your money than the feds are and so I see no reason we should want the government to give us a tax benefit for behaving as they want. I think the tax code should be for raising revenue for governmental operations, not for social engineering, and I truly despise the position of the left which is to use class-warfare to keep us divided. We will self-divide on our own just fine--we don't need liberal help to do it further.

So what do you want?

Solutions539 "Did everyone forget Bush gave the Rich a tax cut?"

Actually, he gave EVERYONE a tax cut, and 82% of it went to the middle/poor class.

Would you like to give yours back?

@ROY WILSON -- Yep, Lehman Brothers is a shining example of how the private sector can 'better use their funds'.

The government 'invested' $3.6 trillion bailing out those private 'better use of funds' institutions. It worked so well that those private institutions felt a 'better use of funds' was management bonuses.

Somebody made a heck of a lot of profit from that government investment. It is time the American public got a return for that government investment ...

Or is the financial services industry just another SOLYNDRA - all investment, no return ...

Nerm_L "@ROY WILSON -- Yep, Lehman Brothers is a shining example of how the private sector can 'better use their funds'."

And Obama did a much better job with the $860 Billion 'Stimulus I' and Solyndra, right?

Thanks for the laugh.

The goal is to tax the rich and make them pay their fair share. Now, who are the rich? Buffet? Seems he owes something like 2 billion in back taxes with his company. So, raise taxes on Warren or simply get him to pay what he owes? Soros is no longer in the Hedge fund business. Why? So he won't have to pay taxes. The filthy rich will be given a pass, as always, and the middle class will take it in the shorts. Why? Because the increase in taxes will be offset with loopholes. Think all the really rich folk who support Obama believe his 'tax the rich' rhetoric? Why should they when he is also granting waivers and bonuses for his supporters who happen to be rich. If his rich supporters want to pay more, they can start writing checks to the IRS. There is a section in the tax code that allows for this. Let them do that and I'll start giving more credibility to Obama.

Unbelievable- What does that have to do with anything? How many people hurt their backs in their job compared to people who have worked hard to get promoted and make more. I'm talking about the ones who work hard to get that money. Yeah there are ones who do too and get screwed over, but I'm not talking about those companies. Actually I'm not talking about companies at all! I'm talking about the hard working people who lose more are more by getting promoted. So why don't you keep your irrelevent comments out of this!

@ROY WILSON -- SOLYNDRA is a shining example of how government should not invest public money.

So far we have gotten as much from investing public money in the financial industry as we have gotten from SOLYNDRA ...

But, hey, as long as those investor's dividends keep rolling in, right? And with a low 15% tax rate - who could compete with that? Certainly would not want to interfere with investing in stocks ...

That low capital gains rate is doing more to stymie job creation than any other government policy ...

Dream on...... The so called "Sleeping Giant" consist of a bunch of comatose wimps!

Obama is a master shell game player, a master at the Smoke and Mirrors trick!

You can not tax the wealthy while you are in bed with them!

This whole plan is BS! If any of this was true, I would not have been hit with a 27% income tax on my GROSS e-Bay sales starting beginning of this year. I make less then 9% on my NET income! I GROSSED about $24,000 so far this year but I only NETTED about $2000 - My tax currently is about $6,000 - I counted on that extra to make ends meet however small it was. Now I am about $4000 in the hole with this new law.

Someone has to pay for the new plan, Guess it was me and the 120,000,000 other private Internet sellers!

SMOKE AND MIRRORS!

GET ENLIGHTENED! The super rich that the president wants to tax are not creating jobs they make money with the money they already have. And the jobs that left for other countries did so , so that they can make as much money for profits that they could squeeze out! Without one thought about AMERICANS that would lose those jobs, while they live and play in a free country, while our Military Men and Women put their lives on the line every day while being compensated very little. They are now using the words welare entitlements when describing the military's medical insurance and pensions and want those cut next while the rich do not have to sacrifice one damn thing. If the below link posts please read but links are often deleted on this site!

Gee, what a wonderfully 'fair' survey, with 3 possible answers;

1 - Tax the rich but leave me alone.

2 - Tax the rich because they can afford it.

3 - I don't know, but tax the rich anyway.

JoeNY

Mike- "Then why did the economy tank in 2008 with taxes being at a historical low and unemployment shooting up to 9%?"

The economy tanked because the federal banking committee changed the regulations and requirements on home mortgage requirements. They demanded that banks issue loans to people whom couldn't afford them and would otherwise not qualify for those loans. Then those loans were bundled in to mortgage backed securities which were given ratings like bonds. They chose not to oversee the program and we later found out that many "bad" loans were being bundled with "good" loans and being granted an "AAA" rating(best). Those securities were traded, bundled, traded, etc. Freddie and Fannie were intimately involved as well. Simply put- the bubble popped (countrywide, etc.) and the value of the housing market was completely undermined. All of the mutual funds and companies that invested in those bonds lost massive amounts of value. The situation caused a banking freeze, which stopped manufacturing and investment loans, which stopped new production, etc. etc. No money, no construction loans and bonds, no growth money, no value...... I hope you got the picture by now. Small, medium, and large business got caught without money and the ability to get money.

Joe, you haven't explained how AIG got involved in this, who "they' were that "chose not to oversee the program", that Fannie and Freddie held just 20% of the sub-prime loans at the time of the collapse, why the rating agencies rated "bad" loans as AAA, who benefited from all of this, how Wallstreet firms got a bailout instead of homeowners, and the President who was in charge (and instituted TARP) during the 8 years this was going on, and, most importantly, why the President who had to deal with the fallout (President Obama) is being hammered for stopping 700,000 jobs a month from being lost and can't get Republicans to go along with anything he wants to keep the economy from falling back into a recession.

Joe, and exactly why will a tax cut for the rich and stopping regulations help any of this?

Democrats (at least the ones I know) don't have a problem at all with the rich. We just expect those rich to pay a fair amount of tax like the rest of us do. There's no problem with business people making whatever they can, but we are not going to be rolled over and told that raising their taxes 5% or 10% would damage their ability to make money or to hire. We believe capitalism is the greatest system on earth but needs to be regulated or we know the biggest and strongest can, and will, oppress and captialize to the point of hurting the society. We know government needs to stop spending, both under Democrats and Republicans, but we don't want a race to the bottom, or to cut spending to the point of hurting employment and hurting consumer demand. We believe consumer demand is the engine that drives the business economy and not the other way around.

Most Democrats also believe that those that are asking for tax cuts for the rich, while advocating stopping middle class tax cuts and slashing Unions and Social Security (already paid for) is class warfare.

With all due respect to Mr Buffet ... he's full of it. For all you Left wing lemmings out there that quote the man as having "sympathy for his secretary's tax bracket" you are totally missing the picture. Did you wonder how in the heck this could be? It's simple ... Warren Buffet DOESN'T TAKE A PAYCHECK ANYMORE!!! If he did, he'd be taxed at the max rate (AMT) just like all the rest of us . But the height of hypocrisy on his part is to imply that because he CHOOSES to take capital gains distributions (at the 15% rate mind you) on income that HAS ALREADY BEEN TAXED (at the higher rate), he feels sorry for his secretary?

Want to fix the world Warren?? Just take a paycheck from your trust funds as opposed to a capital gains distribution. problem solved! Now ... moving on to cutting back on the spending binge in Washington ... but then if we did this what would Obama have to run his re-election campaign on?? Oh that's right ... we're only being polical if we disagree with this horse crap!

How entirely disingenuous on his part!!!! Physician ... heal thyself!

Why stop at 1 million Mr. President. Tax anybody making over 50K a year till they are just like everybody else. You don't need more than 50K to survive. Nobody should be allowed to have that much wealth. After 50K, your tax rate on additional income should become 100%. Then spread that money to the people who need it. Think of all the poor unemployed people we could provide for if we just took from the rich what they don't actually need? Nobody needs a Ferrari. Nobody needs a big house. It should be a crime to have so much wealth while somebody else starves on the streets.

and here is the Article to prove my point!

For all of you saying the rich already pay enough, I've asked it before and I'll ask it again.

Would you rather earn $50,000 and pay 20% leaving you with $40,000, or earn $1,000,000 and pay 50% leaving you with $500,000? Or how about earning $20,000,000 and paying 80% leaving you with a paltry $4,000,000? I'll take the 20 million thank you. In the 1920s the tax rate on millionaires was 90% and the rich still flourished.

What part of that math do so many of you not understand? THE RICH ARE STILL RICH!

Blame you can believe in.

1st Bush, now just blame somebody else ....

lol listen to all the rich lovers squirm.im sure i dont need to tell you most are rich themselves or paid posters.look how impotent all their lies are when nearly 70 percent of us know the rich arent paying their fair share and are screwing the middle class with their job exporting.yes roy ill give back my 100 or 200 dollars in tax cuts i got if they willhave to pay 10s of millions more.i love the new spin coming from republicans

skin in the game means....tax increases on the poor and middle class

class warfare means...the rich has to pay the same percentage of income tax as the middle class

we have to cut entitlements means....we want to cut social security

what amazes me is that 30 percent of the people are so feeble minded they actually believe the republican lies.still.you know if the democrates ever change their platform to reasonable environmental restrictions and a smaller government the republicans will become all but extinct

The wealthy have not "weathered the storm O.K." they were bailed-out with trillions of tax payer money (you know, Socialism) by the same people, Democrats and Republicans, that now want to slash programs that help the non wealthy like Social Security and Medicare "because we can't afford it".

This article lays it out pretty well:

Demagogy in defense of the rich

19 September 2011

President Obama will unveil today the complement to his bogus “jobs” campaign—a plan to slash hundreds of billions of dollars from Medicare and Medicaid and lower tax rates for corporations and the wealthy as part of a $4 trillion deficit-reduction program.

It is difficult to overstate the cynicism of the White House, which is engaged in a series of campaign-style events to rally popular support for policies that mean the opposite of what they purport to mean.

Working people are being deployed as extras in a public relations exercise to demand that Congress pass measures that will drain the Social Security fund and provide new tax windfalls for corporations, while generating at best a handful of jobs. This so-called “job-creation” program—consisting of proposals largely supported by the Republicans—is being used to sugar-coat an attack on health care and other social programs that will have devastating consequences for tens of millions of people.

Obama is proposing no real measures—such as a broad public works program—to address the deepest jobs crisis since the Great Depression, while he promotes cuts in social benefits that will increase the hardship of the unemployed.

The ultimate framework of any deal will be determined by the bipartisan budget committee established in the bill passed in August to resolve the highly orchestrated debt ceiling crisis. The thoroughly undemocratic "super committee" was given broad powers to ram through measures overwhelmingly opposed by the American people...

...To add to the demagogy, Obama will propose a so-called "Buffett tax"—a minimum tax rate for the super-rich that would ensure that they not pay lower taxes than ordinary people. As Obama is well aware, this extremely limited proposal—which would not even restore the tax rates for the wealthy that prevailed in the first years of the Reagan administration—is dead on arrival, opposed by many Democrats as well as the Republicans.

Republican Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell noted Sunday that a similar proposal was voted down by Congress in 2009, when both houses had large Democratic majorities. He also said there were many things on which the Democrats and Republicans were agreed, adding that he anticipated a "major bipartisan accomplishment" would emerge from the committee.

The result of the whole process will be a further redistribution of wealth from the working class to the rich.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/sep2011/pers-s19.shtml

Astonished,

Capital gain income is NOT taxed twice. Perhaps you were thinking of dividends.

Capital gains tax is paid on the gain from the sale of a capital asset (stocks, real property, intangible assets (patents, copyrights, business lists) held over 1 year. Captial assets held less than a year, sold at a gain, are first offset by ST capital losses, and then taxed as ordinary income.

Please don't mislead with incorrect information.

The top 1% pay 38% of the taxes; the top 5% pay 58%; the top 25% pay 86%; 47% of Americans pay ZERO federal income tax. Is that fair? Shouldn't the 47% pay something, even a $1/wk to support the government and pay towards all the benefits they receive? How would you feel if your neighbor paid nothing but expected you to pay more than you already do because he BELIEVES YOU can afford to but HE can't? Is it fair when you work overtime on Christmas and most of your pay goes for taxes to pay for the guy across town to sit on his duff and spend the day with his kids? Is it fair when you work two jobs and weekends to buy basic food for your family and the guy in line in front uses food stamps to buy cakes, cookies, and ice cream, then goes into Starbucks for a $4 latte? I can't believe so many Americans are so jealous of others that they don't realize that in someone else's eye they are the "rich ones".

I can't believe there is an issue about asking everyone to pay their fair share in taxes. Some of you people act like they are being asked to kill their first child or something. The Bush tax cuts didn't work, they did not create jobs, the rich pocketed the money and then act offended when they get called out on it. Give us a break. If the tax cuts did not work, what's the point in contuing the charade? God forbid we offend the wealthy.

Mike-416 #2.15,

The economy tanked in 2008, primarily do to the derivatives fiasco, primarily from the government meddling with home ownwership. You know: "everyone should be able to live in their own houses" the big lie !

You may also want to read or watch "The Warning" and see the governments part in this mess, which still hasn't been cleaned up.

The government never cleans up the messes that they create. It's no wonder that everything gets progressively worse, the government tries to hide problems instead of fixing them.

the top 1 percent pay 38 percent of the income taxes.your right it isnt fair they should be paying alot more.when the top 400 people make more then the bottom 180 million of us.they should pay a whole lot more.they can always move to china where they moved our jobs.all the money in the world wont help them there if they get a high ranking party member mad.

Canman,

You and others completely distort those not making money. The typical wefare woman is white, with kids, HS educated (or less) and laid off or can't find a job. Welfare men are typically white, HS diploma (or less), laid off and can't find a job. Both would work if they could. They are now more elderly, educated, and stuck without a job, or college educated, laid off and stuck without a job or any prospect of getting a job. They are also the employed, without health insurance, who have had a sudden illness or other severe medical situation, go bankrupt trying to pay the hospital and have spent all their retirement savings trying to hold on (and aren't smart enough to claim bankruptcy to avoid spending the retirement savings before bankruptcy).

Those "sitting on their butts" are about 5% of those on food stamps and other assistance.

The top payers, as you say, do pay the most tax, but they also make the most income (more than the share of tax they pay). They continue to increase the gap between the poor and themselves. The bottom wage earners pay social security taxes (7.65%) where those making over $106,800 pay a lesser and lesser % as the pay increases.

The people who takes in $300 a week in unemployment aren't the problem. It eventually runs out and ending it quicker won't help the unemployment figures at all.

canman-2697435

The tax numbers you quote are for middle class WAGE EARNERS, not the top 20% of INCOME earners, and not the wealthy 1% that holds 90% of the nations money.

You say 47% pay no taxes, but do you know who that 47% are? They are children, college students, retired people living on fixed incomes, disabled people, etc. Or do you think 10 year olds should have to go to work and pay taxes so the rich can get even richer?

You obviously have no concept of what WEALTH really is, so please stop spouting your imbecilic FoxFacts and get an education.

Hey johnQ,

If the facts you state were true you'd make perfect sense, but since they aren't you make no sense. The top 1% make a bit less than 20% of the total income--which is a huge amount, I agree--but they pay about 40% of all federal income taxes. I think, and I'm willing to be proved wrong on this, that people like you (leftists) want the rich to pay more because you think it is unfair they have succeeded while you have not. I don't think this is about how to properly fund the government, or how to create jobs, as if the government had that ability (it doesn't). I think it's about envy and jealousy. Too bad to see such a great and powerful nation find itself in such a low condition.

So, since it's obvious to me that you are disinterested in a fair debate using true facts I'm not sure what is left for you and me to work out. If the fact that "the rich" pay taxes at a rate that is twice their share of national income isn't progressive, or isn't their "fair share", then what number would satisfy you?

Hey, MikeHunt, nice name... "network his Dark Continent connections?" I didn't realize Hawai'i was a Dark Continent." I've been over there a few times so, imagine my chagrin. I always thought it was a series of islands out in the Pacific Ocean. And the last time I looked, both Columbia and Harvard Universities were right here in the good ol' U.S.A. Apparently you didn't graduate "magna cum laude" from anywhere.

After graduating high school from Punahou School in Hawaii, Barack Obama attended Occidental College for two years, then got his B.A. from Columbia University. He later got his law degree from Harvard Law School (where he became the Harvard Law Review's first African American president), graduating magna cum laude. Obama was also a lecturer of constitutional law at the University of Chicago Law School. Then he ran for president in 2008. After the election in November 4, 2008 he was elected President of the United States.

Mr. Wilson,

What a "fair system" you are defending. Pay the CEO 50 million while the average worker gets 35K. Does he work 1400 times harder/smarter than the average worker he manages? Does he earn all that because of his actual "work" or because the company as a whole earned money? Even if you are a "job creator" ask this, are you paying your employees a fair wage that balances their effort and compensation with what you afford yourself? What the President is talking about is a return to the graduated tax scale which worked solidly for fifty years? This system of taxation recognizes the fact that when compensation goes way out there you didn't earn it by yourself, you leveraged other peoples work and the country as a whole to get that. Yes, to those that much is given, much is expected, but not that much, taxes are the lowest they have been in those same fifty years. You are still free to be rich you just have to pay a little extra to clean up for some/maybe yours rich peoples greed by paying something to the minimum/low wage people who you disrespected with that unliveable wage in the first place.

In that light comes this "financial crisis" created by the "greedy homeowners" and the "lazy" welfare recipients and poor folk as some on the right want to blame. Lies and the lying liars who tell them. It's "socialism" to want a more equitable distribution of the efforts of all the people, instead what we get under Republican rule is more for the true exploiters on Wall Street and so called "global" corporations who will create a utopia for us all. What do they do to create this utopia? Take more for themselves, threaten workers, kill unions, lower their own taxes, destroy social programs which gives the working class some semblance of security, destroy regulations which help all but which impedes their rip off scams, destroy democracy by buying the government and "drowing it in a bathtub. Privitize the profits and make the expenses public.

Capitalism without some socialism is a scam, a lie and a ripoff. Do you really believe that what you earn is a direct result of how hard or long you work or even what skills you have? Do you really believe that what we have is true "free enterprize"?

Mark-1219747 (Post 2.34)

The issue is cutting out the crap, social programs, pork, wars with no end.

As you have defined cutting out the "crap", I agree vigorously about the pork and the wars without end. However, I could never call social programs "crap." Take a look around. Have you been to a homeless shelter lately? A soup kitchen? A home for the elderly, or day care for elderly? We shouldn't be cutting those lifeline programs.

You also say:

I mean seriously, every hooker I have ever spoke to is 5x smarter than this POTUS. He just does not want to make Fed Gov small. He does not want to hurt his contributors.

If you mean SERIOUSLY that you've been speaking with hookers, I'm am somewhat surprised. In this SERIOUS speaking with them, have you been giving them IQ tests? Checked where they went to college? Found out what their real trade is (other than hooking, of course)? Hmmm . . . I'm just flabbergasted that you would make such an outrageous statement. And even worse, as far as I can tell at a quick glance, no one has contested your statements! Well, I do.

What do you know about President Obama's intelligent quotient (which is a standard determination of how smart a person is)? I have a pretty high IQ, but I'm nowhere near as smart as our President is. I'm sure there are people smarter than President Obama, but the President Bushes aren't among them, nor was President Reagan (sweet old man that he was). There are all kinds of "smarts," however, and some people have more street smarts (such as the hookers you refer to), some have more business sense (such as Warren Buffet), and some (though few), have political sense.

I am distressed that anyone would post such an absurd, inane, ludicrous statement.

So I see that many of you think we're picking on the rich. So if all of us got off our lazy asses we could be rich too? What a bunch of horse manure.

That is a poor excuse for the wealthy not paying their fair share of taxes. Bush and now the Repubs say we need not tax the job creators. What job creators? Over ten years of Bush tax cuts and no jobs. What a pile of crap. How long can you go on being so rediculous? There are plenty of people who work hard everyday and earn an honest living but are taken advantage of by big business. Look at how expensive health care has been. Any insurance is a scheme and sucks the money out of everybody. The wealthy are greedy and just can't ever seem to get enough. I suppose you think those filthy Enron people who are now working on Wall Street are just great guys and we shouldn't pick on them. Corporations are more profitable than ever. So why are they not hiring people? On top of the highest profits, they also have the Bush tax cuts. What??? What the hell. People are outraged by you people who want to twist things around to make those of us who are fed up with this crap look like we're just lazy asses who don't want to work.

Anyone who thinks equitable taxes equal "class warfare" needs to go take a look at the real war:

http://lifeinc.today.com/_news/2011/09/16/7800124-the-rich-got-richer-and-well-you-know-the-rest

Once again REPEAT HISTORY AND EXPECT DIFFERNT RESULTS.

During the 1990s the British did the same f**king thing, "Tax the Rich", "Rich Pay Their Fair Share". So the Rich that could afford it fled England to Ireland.

The RESULT: The "Middle Class" has to pay for all those British "On the Dole", and the current British Labor (Union) Party had to chop their Deficits, Social Programs, and Budget; resulting in the reason for the "Student Riots" that later denegrated into gang looting.

http://flipflopbarack.com/daily_pages/files_091221/flipflop_091221.jpg

2000s example:

aliveinsd - The "rich folk" can move. Hey, they've been heading to Canada and Australia long ago. Hell, China is a better bet than here.

As stated by:

Unbelievable-895817 - ROF'IN LLLLLL @Who has $100,000.00 to put into a LTI?? You, my friend are lost!! People are worried about paying their monthly bills and putting food on the table at this point... You need to put that post where it belongs, on the Comedy Central boards!!!

THE RICH HAVE THE MONEY TO INVEST IN US BUSINESSES = US JOBS.

Too bad so sad, ever since Candidate Obama stated "Tax the Rich", "Rich Pay Their Fair Share" during the Presidential Elections, as soon as he became US President the "Rich" Investors left and invest more overseas. This included the Richest Person in the World as a Foreign Investor that was the majority stock holder of many US Retail Businesses.

The other History was the Jews at Germany prior to World War II, "seize by force the money from the "Rich Jews" that own everything." So, "Seig Heil" motherf**kers, take a few more goose steps, "Seig Heil", take a few more goose steps..............

Gingerbread Mamma - Over the past 10-15yrs we have lost so much, with the bulk of manufacturing jobs shipped overseas during the BUsh administration they are not coming back.

Superwash brain washing cycle. WHO SAID, "China, Most Favor Trade Nation Status".

Mike-416 - Then why did the economy tank in 2008 with taxes being at a historical low and unemployment shooting up to 9%? According to your logic - the 2000's should have been crazy beneficial to everyone and unemployment should have been at 1%.

Because unlike your one second masturbation instant gratification, it took eight years for the time bomb to explode after the US Laws that made Illegal the Causes of the 1907 Depression and 1929-1939 Great Depression were eliminated, resulting in the current $60-100 Trillion USD "Global Economic Crisis" consisting of the "Mortgage Crisis", "Wall Street Crisis", "Financial Crisis", "Credit Crisis", "Banking Crisis", etc. (same things that happened during the 1929-1939 Great Depression, as to why the US is currently in a Depression and NOT a Recession).

Reinstating of these US Laws, MUST have been President Obama's FIRST PRIORITY (so far NOTHING!!!!!). By not doing anything about this the US is suceptable to the Next "Crisis" of $54.6 Trillion USDs of a possible $643 Trillion USDs. Those that know about this situation have no confidence in the US Economy, and invest external to the US. Most keep thinking chump change "Wall Street" and not the Big Money.

Those that had the money ("the Rich") voted with their feet and left the US, as a vote of No Confidence in President Obama. This further took away the Rich Investments and avaliable credit to US Businesses (aka the "Credit Crisis"). Because of President Obama's "Tax the Rich", "Rich Pay Their Fair Share", Unknown Cost for each Employee (e.g. Insurance Corporations increasing Premiums before President Obama's Health Care Reform takes effect, same as what happened with President Obama's Credit Card Reform disaster), not knowing what President Obama will do next (Fear), the US Businesses are Saving Money as Rainy Day Funds, and NOT Hiring anyone. Those that keep stating that "Tax Credit", "Tax Incentives", etc. bullsh!t do not even understand what that is and that NOT taking away earned money is NOT the same as giving someone money.

When President Obama started the Health Care Reform and made deals with the Insurance Corporations, Medical Device Industry, and Pharmascheticals Industry to get $1 Billion USDs of Unlimited Corporate Campaign Contributions, more of the "Rich" left the US, mostly to Nations with 6% to 9% Taxes. When this happened those Nations that the Rich fled to ended up with more avalible credit for loans to Businesses. To become self sustaining "Rich", these Rich then invested in the Nations that they fled to, like what happened with the Rich British that fled to Ireland during the 1990s; unfortunely, the Irish squandered their newfound wealth and are now like Greece.

Beyond laughable, most posters here complain about the Scrotums (Tea Baggers) without realizng that FRESHMEN Congressional Representatives have little or no influence at D.C. (Dysfunctional Congress) as they are assigned the non Influential Committees like Congressional Janitorial Services Committee, that decides who empties the trash cans at Congress. With the long incumbents holding the most influential Committes, especially the Appropriatons Committees (Purse Strings).

The Researched Solutions:

1. Chop the $1.7 Trillion USD President Obama Health Care Reform Act, to only "Preexisting Conditions". Institute the Real Universal Health Care of life long advocate Senator Kennedy (RIP), especially eliminating the Insurance Corporations out of the Medical Profession. Results: a. 80% decrease in Medical Treatment Costs., b. US Citizens pay $50 per month for Unlimited Health Care.

2. Eliminate the Insurance Corporations from the Management of Medicare, as they (according to President Obama, Face the Nation, September 20, 2009) are making profits of $17 Billion to $18 Billion USDs per year profits by Frauding the US Taxpayers ("Cooking the Books" by padding the Costs of Medical Treatments).

3. Get rid of the almost hundred million expensive US Civilians out of the US Military, this will result in a US Defense Budget cut of at least 50%. They will be replaced by cheaper US Military Personnel, as originally, these Jobs were US Military NOT US Civilians.

4. Start of a Flat Tax with Sales Taxes and a Value Added Tax. Since most including President Obama (Candidate Obama's talk with Joe the Plumber, see full video at youtube.com) do not understand the difference between a Sales Tax and a Value Added Tax. A Sales Tax is a percentage placed on all products, goods and services purchased. A Value Added Tax, is based on the impact of purchasing goods manufactured exterior to that Nation, when there are identical products manufactured in that Nation.

5. Withdrawal from the Wars, and the backlash of abandoning our US Allies (the few that are left at the Middle East, Africa, Asia). This will throw about 150,000 US Military and the xxx, xxx US Civilians that support the 150,000 US Military on Unemployment, as No Mission means no US Congressional Appropriations. This is how the US Civilians control the US Military, including the Congressional Defense Appropriations Committee directing how the Congressional Appropriations of the US Defense Budget will be spend (example: US Congress telling the USAF they must buy more F-22s to save the 95,000 US Civilian Jobs, regardless of the USAF saying they want the F-35, not F-22.).

Do NOT even start with that "Use the US Military to secure Borders". As the Federal Active US Military is NOT the same a the States Militia, aka National Guard. And President Obama'a Policy (April 2009, August 2009) as stated by President Obama August 10, 2009, "US Military will not be used to secure US Borders".

The proof that the 150,000 returning from the Wars will be Reduction In Forces (RIF) of the US Military is the upcoming President Obama RIF of 27, 000 US Military Personnel and the no longer needed after the RIF, xxx,xxx US Civilians (Jobs) that support the 27,000 US Military, with both being thrown on Unemployment (States Problem).

The Solution, as one of the Only viable Missions for the 150,000 US Military would be to conduct a larger scale version of President Eisenhower's Operation Wetback to apprehend and deport the over 23 Million Illegal Aliens at the US. This would include "the Little Frauds" (aka Anchor Babies, as a Fraud against the US Citizens and the Legal Intent of the US Constitution (as still upheld by the US Supreme Court)). These Illegal Aliens are Loyal Citizens of Another Nation, and are a known National Security Threat.

BEFORE you even fail to attempt to justify Illegal Aliens read post#6.15 at:

http://politics.newsvine.com/_news/2011/09/08/7673693-obama-pushes-congress-to-end-circus-and-act-now?commentId=57850820#c57850820

Also go research what the US Army Corps of Engineers responsiblity is within the US, so every time you cut the US Defense Budget you also chop these US Army Corps of Engineers Responsibilities at the US.

That's a great article RAF. It underscores the point in order for a republic to succeed, the wealthy have to pay a higher percentage of the costs of those items that the republic enjoys as a whole -- things that keep a community safe, healthy and well-educated, like good schools, police and fire departments and the like. The problem, as that article highlights, is that over the last 28 years, 5% of the population has enjoyed far more fruits of the society than has the rest, especially the bottom 60%. Currently, they are making money and holding on to it -- not investing in employees or their communities, as is evidenced by the fact that the profit per employee rate has increased by 50%.

So sometimes the government's job is to coax those who have succeeded and really not contributed to society in general maybe as much as they should have.

You people don't get it. Our money has no value,you spent us into depression. Tax the rich at 100% it doesn't matter. Cut the credit card now. The writing is on the wall,all you have to do is open your eyes.

rich you and i will never see i eye to eye.you say its jealousy and envy i say its disdain for their obscean gluttony and greed.the super rich are like a 900 pound man complaining about losing one of the 1000 full banquets in from of him to his starving neighbors.the republican position of run to the aid of these selfish monetary behemoths is indefensible.you ask what would i think is a fair rate.the 70 percent they were paying before the republicans started americas decline

StopTheCannibals:

Capital gain income is NOT taxed twice. Perhaps you were thinking of dividends.

Sorry my friend but the calculation of the capital gain is the difference between the asset's basis value and the capitalized value less the cost incurred during ownership ... which includes taxes. Now, without getting into a "did to ... did not ..." pointless discussion let's cut to the chase because at the end of the day the numbers are the same ...

Regardless of the path by which wealth is accrued (either via capital gain or via dividend), the tax rate is 15%. My point relevant to Warren Buffet and the President's demagoguery is that the very rich DON'T pay taxes primarily on the IRS marginal tax rate for a reason ... they CHOOSE to pay it on capital gain or dividend. Just a minor point is that in the case of Warren Buffet ... he DOESN'T DO THAT EITHER!!! If he WANTS to pay more taxes ... he simply takes a W-2 disbursement from his bank account. Oh, that's right ... HE DOESN'T GET A PAYCHECK!!!

My specific point is the hypocrisy of the left. If you want to get more tax revenue, then let's talk about tax reform. You don't hear that do you? That would be eliminate all loopholes (i.e. no ones cronies win) and lower overall rates. That broadens the base and neither Exxon nor GE would have any favored child status. The consequence is that SMALL businesses would have more certainty and could grow their business. You'd actually garnish support for that as well as doing some good, but being bought and paid for by the extreme left wing groups ... the Left has it's cronies too (Can we say ... SoLynda???).

For all your hate and contempt for Sarah Palin, Lefties, she's got this one right! It's cronyism ... Chicago style. If you think raising tax bracket values will result in ANY millionaire paying one iota more tax you're even more foolish than I think. It will only result in less economic growth and higher unemployment ... but then your cronies will be happy!

Finally, the epitome of the hypocrisy is Obama thumping on the class warfare while at the same time denying he's doing it ... SOLELY to play to his extreme left wing base.

Total B.S.

Some news for all of you righteous CHRISTIANS. The US Census has released its latest findings on income levels in the US: 1 in 6 Americans now lives below the poverty line. The majority of those are children, you know the children who you religious morons did not want to be aborted. And you right wing nut cases, who supposedly follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, want to eliminate what few programs there are to help the poor.

Where is your supposedly Christianity? Christ fed the poor, he did not leave them out to starve. You want to eliminate all abortions, what about the programs to feed and maintain those children after they're born. When is your hypocrisy going to stop!? When are you double-tongued sadists going to stop fighting for the wealthy and start showing concern for America.

All you Bible thumping hypocrites are good at shouting is how the libies spend money for the lazy. What about your stubborn defense of the rich and the gluttonous, at the expense of the masses? When will you be happy, when the poverty line crosses the 50% mark and open revolt breaks out against the self-indulgent?

This is the United States of America, supposedly the richest country in the world. How do you like living in a country where 1 out of 6 human beings is living in poverty? How proud are you of those statistics? But, then, why do I bother with you. Your skulls are so thick and full of hatred of who knows what, you can't see anything past your nose. The ME, ME syndrome is so well entrenched that a jack hammer beating against your skull will make no dent what-so-ever. Truly, a pathetic, obtuse lot.....

Hi again johnQ,

I think you are right about one thing--we will likely never agree on this. But I think the source of perpetual disagreement is over the foundational facts, not the politics per se. I was on my way home from refereeing and I was wondering how you might have answered me, if at all. What would be fair? Would it be 30%? No, too low. 50%? No, too low. 70%? Maybe, just maybe. And it got me to wondering why you think that would be fair for this reason--regardless of the marginal tax rate the US federal government gets from tax payers about 19%. When the rate was 90%, the gov't got about 19% effectively. When it was 70%, the gov't got about 19% effectively. And so on.

If you were to get your way so that the effective tax rate, not the marginal rate which is what you want raised, became 70%, I think the economic cataclysm you would create would dwarf any ever seen on earth. Our nation, still the world's economic, political, military, and cultural leader, would in a matter of months surrender each position as our economy would likely contract to something you'd have seen perhaps a century ago.

See, you hate the rich and think they have ill-gotten gains, and you want your cut. This is an age-old emotional draw by leftists. I would prefer a different ethos from the left, but all we got were platitudes about hope and change.

nonsense the income tax rate at the zenith of the united states power and influence was 90 percent.save the doom and gloom crap.your right about one thing i do hate the rich.i see that they subvert my government from a representative government into a plutocracy.i only expect my cut to be what i earn.sorry to burst your liberals want everything for free or that someone else earns bubble.one last thing.for the most part obama is a disappointment.but given a choice between a republican that do away with the minimium wage,cut social security and increase taxes on the middle class and poor.ill have to stay with obama

never mind.elected officials not on the take,rich people not screwing the poor and middle class.a fantasy ill never see.youll win.evil selfish greedy people always win.at least i got to be a part of a great experiment a democracy.too bad it didnt work

TAX the crybabies. Silly posts defending these modest raises are absurd. And, it didnt take me 400 words to say it.

Already lining up? Please remember that this same proposal was voted down in 2009 under reid and his democratically controlled senate. So, you need to say the democrats and republicans had lined up against this and are doing it again. It is called bipartisanship.

I quoted from the article, Mark. Where are your links to back up your statement that the Dems are lined up against the President?

More liberal spin. What did not get a lot of play was Nancy Pelosi saying that SSI and Medicare were off the table. Mary Landrieu has said that oil subsidies are off the table. Now if we don't see changes in those two I promise you the liberal media will make NO mention of those two.

Euterpe,

Both parties line up with objections before knowing the facts. Stating this is specific to the GOP is just falling for the Democratic party line.

whar does thids poll have to do with the article sabout cutting militasry retirement benefits? That was the article I read and wound up here....

soazDan

That was the article I read and wound up here....

Hmmm - I seeded an article about that today. Did you click on the article or on my name?

Politics above country?

Were you not paying attention during the Bush years?

Hillary told us that being against the government was patriotic! Or does that only hold true when a Republican is in office?

You silly people thinking you can act badly for 8 years and then feign surprise when your idiot gets the same treatment for a far larger debt and failure. Nice try kids.

Actually, Practical, Obama has tried repeatedly for consensus and compromise. He, and the American people, learned the hard way that there can be no compromise with the GOP. They are the party of NO - no matter what. They've proven this over and over again since Obama was elected. Their only objective is to shut his Administration down, regardless of how it hurts the country.

You and I are both entitled to our opinions, but, darn it, facts remain facts. The facts go against your spin. Nice try yourself! But do better next time.

Obama is playing a shell game.

Obama the pitiful clown can only get the deaf, dumb, and blind (can you say liberals) to play his game!!!

haha "job creators" - they havent been making jobs since theyv gotten their tax reductions from bush. The GOP loves to classify the wealthy as innately job creators... which is completely insane. Demand for a good/service creates a market which creates jobs... not the existance of more money in the wealthys pockets.

The "job creators" have been unproducing for the last decade, wouldn't you say?

Job creators? That's funny. Unemployment is over 9%. I think I can smell funny stuff coming from your way.

Ray W. just who are these so called job creators you tea people GOP republicans keep talking about? Give us some names not just generality's. All you can do is parrot Fox (aka tea people GOP republican propaganda machine), Limbaugh and all the other do nothing GOP congress. You don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Over 75% of all new job over the last 25 years have been created by small businesses. The same group of people which this tax program is targeting half of. But even with demand, these business owners must exist to hire people. If not, who does the hiring? Who owns those small businesses who do the hiring? Both demand and the business owner are is the chain which creates the jobs. If tax reductions didn't work under Bush, how did we go from over 8% unemployment in early 2002 to 4.2% unemployment in 2006?

Ray:

What jobs have been created due to the Bush tax cuts ? Wealth has been created for those who were already wealthy, but no jobs....it's been the opposite. Give a rich person a tax cut and they do something like buy themselves another Rolls Royce (Floyd Mayweather did just that), no American jobs created there unless you count the one guy who washes and waxes his Rolls.

More class warfare. If people with money aren't going to create jobs then who? It has always been people with money who take risks and create companies. You want jobs. Well, we have tried 3 years of government job creation. We need job creation not class warfare. We went from 8% unemployment in 2002 before the tax cuts to 4% unemployment after the cuts. What the left doesn't want to talk about is results. Our recession was started by the housing bubble from the sub prime market which burst. We have yet to do anything about the corrupt scheme of Fannie and Freddie and the Fair Housing scam. Again, the only people who have had success under the past 2-1/2 years of stimulus are the rich campaign contributors on the left like Solyndra and GE.

Ray, i could point to numerous occasions in our history were high taxes (as high as 90% on the top bracket) have coincided with economic growth and low unemployment, so your point that bush unemployment went down for a short three years (then skyrocketed) is void. The fact is that the top 2% hold a make a majority of the income in this country and it needs to change, we are not going to go back to the 1890's-1900's and eliminate govt regulation so the wealthy can flourish while the poor work for minimum wages (if the GOP wants to keep that too, we know bachmann thinks its a good idea to eliminate it)

Why will none of you liberals accept the fact that employment rates were higher during the Bush terms? You all keep spouting off about Obama's job creation but you don't care that net job growth is what is important. Any of you have any ideas how to get that money out of the hands of the banks and businesses and into the economy. A way that will actually work?

First and foremost, our economy is a consumption based economy. What many business men are saying is that they need customers, not tax cuts. Why should they be hiring more people if they don't have the demand for their products and services? Somehow we have to get money in the hands of those that will spend it immediately. Rather quickly, a lot of the money flows upward to the business men. Also, the world economy is having a major negative impact on the U.S. economy. I don't think our politicians can fix that situation - at least not quickly.

Rick-312779 At the end of the Bush administration, we were losing over 700,000 jobs per month. How long could we have continued that trend? Political speak and party talking points are reducing our current situation down to far too simplistic levels. There are an enormous number of factors that affect job growth. To date, neither party has offered a combined short and long term (which is required) solution that will address our economic woes.

Ray W.

If tax reductions didn't work under Bush, how did we go from over 8% unemployment in early 2002 to 4.2% unemployment in 2006?

And then 9% in 2008. Categorically - unemployment was worse when he left office than when he arrived.

Also - you cant claim tax cuts led to any sort of unemployment reduction unless that scenario occurs in a bubble with no extrinsic impact.

Drew, you neglect to include in your post about the lack of abilities of other countries to manufacture goods and services post WWII. When you have no competition because the remainder of the industrialized world is rebuilding, you will increase your output and thus jobs.

Many times the tax increases are touted as being imposed on the millionaires and billionaires. If this is the case, why isn't there a proposal out there that would not increase the tax rate on a single person making $200,000 per year but rather on those making $1,000,000 or more per year?

Mike - Unemployment was 7.4% when Bush left office - only 1 Term 0bama has managed to get it above 9%. You might as well Google the right numbers b/c someone will call you on it when you make them up!

How many jobs were created by the Obama job stimulus?

First, it is worth noting that President Obama and Democrats created more jobs in 2010 than George W. Bush did in his eight year reign of economic malfeasance. From Bush’s first month in office until December of 2009, the economy added 1 million jobs, but in 2010 alone the economy added at least 1.1 million jobs and though the numbers show improvement, there is still a long way to go to get 14.5 million more Americans gainfully employed. It is unfortunate, but if Republicans were not so bent on obstructing President Obama’s economic agenda the unemployment numbers would be much lower and the economy would be on a more solid foundation. Economists have outlined what measures to take to improve job creation, but because Republicans are ill-equipped to take advice from experts they are resorting to their tired canards of tax breaks for the wealthy’s corporations and deregulation of environmental protections.

When Republicans won the House in 2010, they promised to make jobs their highest priority but instead of job creation, they focused on procreation and assaulting women’s right to choose their own reproductive health. After 8 months, Republicans have still not made any effort to help create jobs and instead have obstructed the president and the Democratic determination to create an environment that is conducive to job creators. When Democrats attempted to eliminate tax breaks and incentives for corporations that outsource Americans’ jobs, Republicans obstructed and eventually blocked the job-creating legislation. Their job-killing agenda served two purposes; to protect their wealthy corporate donors and to portray the Obama Administration as ineffective. The U.S. Chamber of Commerce president made the rounds on news talk-shows to tout the benefits to corporations of moving American jobs to India, Korea, and China, and although near-slave labor may be good for big business, it is devastating Americans’ lives as well as the country for the lost tax revenue from working Americans and corporations that avoid paying taxes on foreign earnings.

The Republican meme that regulations and the corporate tax rate are hurting job creation plays well to conservatives and cognitively challenged Republican supporters, but they are outright lies that have been around since the Republicans’ man-turned-god, Ronald Reagan​, was president. It is an oft-repeated statistic, but it bears repeating again that during the Clinton Administration, the tax rate for the richest 2% of Americans was 3% higher than it is now and funding for regulatory agencies like the EPA was increased leading to millions of jobs being created and an environment that was considerably less toxic. When President Clinton’s term was finished, he left a budget surplus that the Bush-Republicans promptly turned over to the wealthy and the economy began a devastating slide that continued until President Obama’s initiated a stimulus program that started the painfully slow economic recovery.

http://www.politicususa.com/en/obama-gop-job-creation

Culheath,

Using your logic, if tax cuts are the problem, and most of the tax cuts were for the poor and middle class, maybe that's what caused our economic problems? Maybe the solution is to tax the poor and middle class more...

No, I'm not actually advocating that position, I'm just pointing out a potential logic flaw in the "tax cuts don't help jobs" argument.

Black_belt3, it took a while to stop the free-fall that we were in. You talk like every job lost after Obama took office is because of him. We were shedding hundreds of thousands of jobs per month when Obama was sworn in. It took a while to level that fall out and start to try and claw our way back.

“Obama” didn’t get the unemployment rate up to 9%. Greed and stupidity of the money changers did that.

You all want a direct, positive correlation between the president and job loss it seems. However, you are not looking at the control of the purse strings - Congress - in correlation to job loss. If you want to blame (or credit for that matter) whatever president is in office, you need to look at the make up and policies of the Congress as well.

culheath first of all obama had nothing to do with any job creations and if you'd look most if not all real jobs meaning jobs in the private sector not government jobs are in conservative states not the bankrupt communist ones.

@Ron.... :

Culheath,

Using your logic, if tax cuts are the problem, and most of the tax cuts were for the poor and middle class, maybe that's what caused our economic problems? Maybe the solution is to tax the poor and middle class more...

No, I'm not actually advocating that position, I'm just pointing out a potential logic flaw in the "tax cuts don't help jobs" argument.

The flaw in that argument is that the tax cuts have never primarily been aimed at the middle classes and lower. There is also zero evidence that the so-called job creators have ever been stimulated by tax cuts to create jobs.

Jobs are created when there is ample market demand for products or services produced. Whenever the money supply is contracted by the central banks or by reductions in national debt via austerity programs, there is less available money to consumers to produce that sort of market demand.

Most of that self-perpetuating and spiraling down feedback loop is a product of the money supply being generated out of debt controlled by whoever controls the issuance of currency; namely, the private owners of the Federal Reserve. If the government printed and distributed its own debt free currency in order to fund say infrastructure projects, both the unemployment and the national debt would be easily ameliorated in 5 to 10 years.

I mean seriously, why is the US government having to purchase its own currency from the banks at a debt premium? The Fed is not a government agency, it is a privately owned organization that has been granted the position of being the sole issuer of US currency. Why is that?

@Democratnomore

culheath first of all obama had nothing to do with any job creations and if you'd look most if not all real jobs meaning jobs in the private sector not government jobs are in conservative states not the bankrupt communist ones.

If you ask politely I am sure the nurse will offer you some more lithium.

I think unemployment is connected to congress more than the POTUS.

2006.Rep congress....4.2% unemp

Changes to Dem Congress and WHAM

10-13% unemployment

Companies have no issue in making jobs if they are sure the carpet is not about to be pulled out from under them. Companies do not know where all this is going because Congress is not listening to groups and not the interests of the country.

LMBAO At Job Creators!! I wish they would join the rest of us and do their jobs!!

I swear, there should be a comedy forum in the "Vine"!!

why do the middle class and lower income citizens have deal with Discrimination"prejudicial treatment of an individual based on their membership in a certain group or category. It involves the actual behaviors towards groups such as excluding or restricting members of one group from opportunities that are available to another group" in this case the upper class , also noting the same class that driven by greed put us in this mess in first place(no I don't me the House in this case, but most fall into the upper class)WOW wait I see the problem now they would be putting taxes on themself

If the rich aren't job creators, then why did the number of US millionaires increase by 30% in 2009, 2 years into the recession? You just cannot keep lying about where jobs come from and think any of us are going to buy your liberal drivel.

The private sector is the only place that jobs come from that matter. Government jobs are a drain on the growth of our economy. If this were not true, why are we not recovering?

Obama added more six-figure new government jobs in the past 2 years than any President in the history of America. If growing government were the solution, why is hiring stagnant?

My guess is, rather than answers, I will simply hear more name calling.

@Mark-1219747,

Bush was out of office until Jan 2010 Wham. unemployment 10.1%

@Mark-1219747,

Your argument is faulty at best.

If you want to blame President Obama for the economy which was in a free fall when he was sworn in.

We must blame it totally on Bush for the destruction of the economy.

Solutions,

Obama won in 2008, took office January 2009.

Why should anyone who can hire a new employee do it? This isn't only about tax rates, but they do matter. It's about an entire pro-government position held by the left. This includes taxes, government programs, regulations, even how our legal system operates. There isn't a single position held by the left which doesn't place the government in a higher position than the people and this ought to scare the hell out of you.

When businesses leave the USA to set up shop elsewhere what does the left say? That they are turncoats. Where is the introspection as to why those businesses left? It works the same in our own personal lives--rather than hurl blame and cast aspersions we should try to figure out why whatever is happening is occuring, and then fix those things. This might lead, in our present situation, to tax reform, to spending reform, to regulatory reform, to legal reform. But it won't happen. Too many of us want a large and interferring government to undertake a thought process that inevitably would lead to a smaller and less meddling one.

Ray W.

Job creators??? Really? Then tell us oh wise one, WHERE ARE ALL THE @!$%#ING JOBS?

How much do you get paid to spout your idiotic bull@!$%#?

Rich,

I think you're right, and the general anti-business sentiment is the core of the problem. We need to get back to a partnership with businesses so they will want to operate in the US again.

Also, by "partnership", I'm not referring to isolated deals to specific companies or industries - that's just crony capitalism - I'm referring to things such as streamlining the tax code and regulatory processes, as well as structuring trade treaties to put US businesses on a more even footing with their foreign competition.

Hey, Ray W,

So who's screwing the job creators? Who in the hell exactly are the job creators? I don't see any. OH, you mean those people who have record high profits, have been receiving the Bush tax cuts for over 10 years, are still sending the jobs overseas? Those people? What?, do you want us to feel sorry for them? Are you scolding us hard working tax payers because we think taxes should be fair. You and many others need to leave that fantasy land you are living in. Of course, you are just repeating the Republican mantra. No taxes for the rich. No taxes for the rich. No taxes for the rich.

So Jimbo, how has that big government stimulus "trickle down" of the the last 2-1/2 years worked? Seems like that trickle stopped at GE and Solyndra!!

Actually Ray, quite well thank you very much. My family business is asphalt, and I can name four local highway construction projects that my family's bottom line benefited from that were either directly, or partially funded by the last stimulus program.

Oh Jimbo, if only the common man could afford to have 1-4M in machinery to do asphalt work with. How many illegals did you have pushing the shovels?

why do the middle class and lower income citizens have deal with Discrimination"prejudicial treatment of an individual based on their membership in a certain group or category. It involves the actual behaviors towards groups such as excluding or restricting members of one group from opportunities that are available to another group" in this case the upper class , also noting the same class that driven by greed put us in this mess in first place(no I don't me the House in this case, but most fall into the upper class)WOW wait I see the problem now they would be putting taxes on themself

Ray W.

More BS from you, "trickle down" economics is a Republican baby started under Reagan, but you're right, it hasn't worked for 30 years, and now you're trying to say it's Obama's plan, yet the GOP and people like you still cry foul when the rest of us want to start making those fake "job creators" pay a little more taxes. I'll ask you again. Where are all these jobs that the whole GOP "trickle down" system is supposed to create?

Yeah, and Obama will accept all the praise and none of the blame better than anyone. As a matter of fact, he is probably unsurpassed at this ability in modern times.

The unfortunate thing is that no one in modern history has done more to undermine the Constitution, destroy the economy, erode our personal freedom, promote rampant expectations for a government nanny state, violate the govermental branches balance of power, and betray the trust of the American people than Barack Hussein Obama.

Pardon me. Would you happen to have any Grey Poupon?

Do you have any idea how much insurance is on a Ferrari Mother****** (The Replacements)

That's the main theme of the Karl Rove play book Chuck M. And what the paid tea people GOP republican trolls use on this blog daily.

And there you have it..a paid advertisement by the Liberal Thinking Machine.

Translation: I know you are but what am I?

Pee Wee Herman will not save this country

You won't be missed around here jeb233. Good luck with your new adventure in Costa, where ever that is.

jed:

Good news for you, Costa Rica does not have unionized police forces to protect you. Yay, cheap taxes. Enjoy !

Costa Rica, where the wealthy has to surround their homes with razor wire and the rest of the populace resents the hell out of them. Sounds fun!!

See Ya!!

Based on the comments directed toward upper end wage earners on this site, we're really not that far off from doing the same in the USA. And this isn't about class warfare?... pffft!

Tom ,Yreka

Costa Rica, where the wealthy has to surround their homes with razor wire and the rest of the populace resents the hell out of them. Sounds fun!!

Jed::: You have the permission of a lot of us to leave. Here's your hat-- what's your hurry. And don't let the screen door hit you on your butt as you leave.

What's your job? A john, and the 30 you are moving to Costa are your prostitutes? Bet none of you pay taxes-- especially what you get under the table. The bimbos down there might object to you bringing bimbos from here when there are enough of them there.

All you Libs patting him bye bye, You do realize your checks on the 1st and 15th are paid via his taxes? You just lost 91,000 in taxable income. Nice logic you all use.

Don't let that doorknob hit ya......Wait, let it hit ya!!!

Hell of a lot more than that Mark.

Ha! I am thinking anyone can sit behind their computer and pretend to be a big business owner making a "hell of a lot more than that". I don't buy it for a minute. Sort of like those with a good sex life - those making good money don't usually have to brag about it to feel important. Just saying.

jed233, you and a lot of other small and medium sized business owners say that you all are fed up and are going to move your businesses out of the U.S., citing too many regulations and corporate taxes and other "job killing" measures. But, once you get your businesses going good in those third world countries you love so much, and once you are forced to pay for protection of your business property by thugs that are in league with the country's ruling party, and once you get a look at the paltry profits you are making, due to having to price your goods and services so low so as to make them affordable to the public who are living in squalor because they make the equivalent of $50/month in household income, you'll come to realize that business owners, for the most part in America, have it good right now. All those tax breaks and shelters that the middle class can't take advantage of. You can whine about paying corporate taxes and capital gains taxes, but after it's all said and done, you're still FAR better off than if you were to move to another country. And, you're still far better off than us working class folks!

ere is no class in this administration

I think Zimbabwe has a better income disparity than the US.... Thats the america the GOP wants i guess.

drew - no that would be what would happen if they continue printing money like they have been doing. If they devalue the dollar enough, we can all enjoy the fun of hyperinflation.

The hyper-inflation excuse is a myth.

When Lincoln turned his back on the banks and issued debt free currency during the Civil War called Green Backs, was there hyper-inflation? No. The Green Backs did just fine at producing a high growth economy.

NO. Drew is correct, Zimbabwe does have better income disparity. Shame, isn't it

Flat tax.

The GOP are the 1st to CRY for LOOP--HOLES....................

OOOh my gwad! Make the rich pay that "alternative mininun tax"! McConnell, Toomey and the rest of the republicans screaming. You sons-a-bitches are no better than people such as myself. You're proving though, you think you are. As Toomey said; we don't have time for games any more. I agree. Pay your goddamn taxes you pack of self serving jerks. Those shills who want to scream; they'll are run to some other country, can simply swallow it along with all their other crap. May the national door not hit 'em in their collective asses as they leave! Good for you Mr. President! Stick to your guns! The people have your back on this one!

Ron Paul will be kicking the brother out in about 14 months. Radical change is on the way, Obama will take with him the title 'Most ineffective POTUS EVER" and Jimmy Carter will console him.

Economan: Obama doesn't want to tax the rich to spare budget cuts. He wants to tax the rich because he hates the rich

Your statement makes no sense, Isn't the President among the Rich? Its a matter of economics, the Rich should pay their fair share, I am sure he is not talking about your income level.

Anyone who votes for Obama’s tax the rich plan has bought into the only play Obama has left, which is to play on your emotions by making you believe that taking something from someone else will make your life better! Does anyone honestly believe that raising taxes - on anyone - is going to actually reduce the deficit or create jobs! (Do we need another Solyndra for us to get the message that the Govt. cannot be trusted with our money?)

The rich are rich, not because they are stupid with their money but because they are smart. They have the option to take their money elsewhere. Liberals can whine and stomp their feet all they want about taxing the rich, but if you owned a company that was bloated, in debt, and in trouble, would your first move be to raise prices on your best customers, or any customer for that matter? What do you think your customers would do if you took that action? What would you do? My guess is you would do exactly what they (the rich) are going to do, which is take their business elsewhere. How that is that result helpful for anyone?

Why doesn't Obama take the opposite approach and lower everyone's taxes or have everyone and - I mean everyone - pay one flat tax rate and eliminate all the tax loopholes. Oh that's right, he cannot sell any legislation without pitting us against one another first. Be very wary of any man who sells jealousy as a means to promote the greater good!

Paid for with tax payer money. Cut the working mans pension but don't touch mine, that's what all these politicians are about, them selves.

Wasn't Leona Helmsley's fate sealed when a former housekeeper testified during a trial that she had heard Helmsley say: "We don't pay taxes. Only the little people pay taxes..."

Tom Donohue, the head of the US Chamber of Commerce and GOP contributor says we need to "Stop Whining" about our Jobs being outsourced.

http://cnre.vt.edu/lsg/intro/outsourcing.pdf

akgirl-846983

Interesting article. The man is NUTS!!

Obama doesnt want to necessarily make these cuts, but he believes in something called compromise which is apparently lost from the GOP dictionary. Democrats(or at least I) understand the unsustainability of some parts of Medicare and am willing to make changes to it. Obamas focus is primarily on creating jobs in this plan... which is priority number one for him. However the GOP is more concerned with the debt than getting america back to work (not surprising coming from the party of the rich)

So you admit that all that screaming and rhetoric about never cutting Medicare coming from the left was just a bunch of campaign politics designed to drum up votes. Thanks for your frank honesty.

That is on top of the $500 billion+ that 1 Term 0bama is trying to raid from Medicare to fund the unconstitutional 0bamacare. Not to worry tho - 0bamacare will be ruled on by SCOTUS during the Oct - June session and we won't have to worry about 0bamacare anymore and then on Nov 6 2012 - 414 long days away - we vote this incompetent socialist out of office.

We don't need more Obamath:

missed cost overrun of $500 billion associated with ObamaCare insuring the spouses and children of new entitlement recipients.

double-counted $529 billion in “savings” associated with the implementing Obamacare legislation as Kathleen Sebelius was forced to acknowledge in March of 2011 under oath.

indicated now defunct alternative energy company Solyndra, which received $535 million in “stimulus” loan guarantees from the Obama administration, was a prudent investment.

Right now all stimulus money the states receive go to paying states bills. You noticed in June when the stimulus was over there were mass layoffs again? Georgia calculates just in assistance 3 Billion dollars a month was being soaked by Illegals. They estimated 8-12BILLIONa month cost due to illegals.

Kick them out...and we are fine. The only class warfare is illegals have more rights than us.

The bible thumping, people hating "conservatives" don't need President Obama's help to look bad, they got that one covered on their own.

The tea people GOP republicans don't need any help looking bad IRT. They do a pretty good job all on their own.

Of course Obama knows as do all people that it won't pass.But what it does is shows not only America,but the whole world what a bunch of idiots the Republicans are.Everyone now knows they truly are the party of NO,and only for the corporate sleeze bags.Sleep with dogs you wake up smelling like a dog.

I can't believe I am reading this nonsense in 2011. It sounds absolutely insane and inhumane. The Republicans accused Obama of having death panels, yet the GOP want to cut medicaid, medicare and social security? WHAT THE WHAT???? This just totally blows me away. I can only imagine what other democratic nations are thinking. They provide health insurance and education because they KNOW it benefits the entire nation as a whole. Republicans refer to these other democratic nations as socialists? Is something in the water, air, food to make them brain dead or WHAT? There is something REAL WRONG here!

RUBE,

Whats REAL WRONG here is called liberalism.... Read anything about Greece yet???? Is the gooberment supposed to support us cradle to grave???? You and the liberals are WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS COUNTRY!!!

should society assist a dying man who has no health insurance?

No, shouted a teaswiller, let him die, and the other teaswillers hooted and cheered

everyone dies, the worms devour everything and every BODY and all those gazillions wrapped around you are no barrier.

time for the conservatives to make another chess move.

how about a real move, volunteer for the armed services and go fight to defend your freedom to own an AK47 to shoot your neighbor's cat? dubyASS and dickie started two wars which cost 2.4 trillion dollars, their livers were too yellow to go to vietnam where 55 thousand real men, many libruls, died

Have owned a small biz since 1995. The worst 3 years have been the last 3. No way I am hiring for the 1 time tax benefits this POTUS is trying to scam us with. Small biz are a lot smarter at running the economy than this POTUS and won't be fooled by him. The only way we get out of this is to get rid of 0bama and 0bamacare to start with. Otherwise the small biz person will never hire and will save for a rainy day. (which is right now)

Black belt your a Idiot. I have a couple of small bizz. I had a couple of rough years take the tax credit and hire a person or two. The only reason the economy is in the drink is because all the protectionism attitude from the right is holding up the county. Stop being a jump the band wagon person and help. That or learn how to better run your buzz. You are part of the solution when you hire.

black_belt3, is it fair to say that if demand for your business were to increase somehow, you would start hiring people to accommodate that demand? If not, then congratulations, you are part of the problem.

Well said, Freedom!

No one is going to hire if there is no demand for their product. Why should a business hire someone if there is going to be no output. Where I work is seasonal. We work more hours during the winter months and during the summer it is very slow. During the heavy months when the demand for the product is high, we have temp workers. the temps are let go during the slow times. That is just business. You can't expect a business to hire someone when there is no work for that person. A business is there to make money not to hire workers. If the business doesn't make money it will shutdown and no one that works there will have a job. That is simple economics.

I like your thinking Freedom4Everyone!

I'd gladly give the wealthy a tax break ... if they'll give up the loopholes that allow them to pay less taxes as a percentage of their income than the rest of us ... if the corporations they run pay their fair share ... if they'll invest in American jobs and industry instead of whatever foreign country is supplying the cheapest labor at the moment.

During this recession American corporations have laid off about 2.4 million workers ... while adding 2.7 million workers to their overseas payrolls. Now doesn't that say it all?

As for this pathetic "class warfare" argument (which conservatives conveniently pull out any time their morally bankrupt, upper class corporate status quo is challenged), the all-rights-and-no-responsibilities Republicans and their Constitution-waiving Tea Party folks should take a look in the mirror.

They're all for the billions and billions of government subsidies that benefit their political friends and constituencies, but they abandoned the basic concept of economic fairness decades ago.

What we really need is a wealth tax and not an income tax. If someone has accumulated a great deal of wealth (Buffet), they should pay a tax - say 10% - on the value of their assets.

Everybody should pay 10% that is only fair. What you do with your life is up to you. It is not right to tax the rich more simply because they have done more with their lives. Taxes should be fair.

There should be no tax breaks at all. Pay the tax and move on.

Let's discourage the rich from what they do best! Produce, create, provide jobs and opportunities, drive the economy and lets give it all to the non-producers, the un-imaginative, the parasites of our society. Lets give the government more so they can waste more. Lets not hold them accountable for running social security into the ground, bankrupting medicare and the post office. THEY CAN'T RUN ANY PROGRAM EFFICIENTLY AND PROTECTIVELY! Yet, so many of you want to help them continue their run of incompetency! You can confiscate every penny made by every millionaire in this country and it would make no difference to our economic situation! There are not enough millionaires in this country Its all a smoke screen! Of course, its class warfare!

I agree with freedom. Tax breaks are fine if you are supplying American jobs, but I also think there should be a penalty for outsourcing an American manufacturing job overseas only to sell it back here. (Free Trade) Economic globalization can not work in an unbalanced economic world. ie If labor is cheaper overseas then thats where manufacturing will go, unless there were barriers to prevent it. In all seriousness, while corporations are outsourcing the jobs, they affecting this country as a whole. This dominoe effect is happening in both directions, from the top down and the bottom up. The bottom cant buy because they dont have a job and the top are beholden to nobody but the stock holders so they manufacture at the lowest cost, which is overseas (by the mere fact that it is slave labor money) that Americans could not live on without working 100 hours a day.

As for the banking industry, Wall St.; They lobbied millions to repeal the regulations put forth in the early 30's to prevent another stock market crash (see, Glass-Steagall Act) It broke up investment banking and commercial banking, so that the speculation on the stock market would not effect the stabilty of the other, it also removed CEO's restriction being solely from being beholden to one or the other, thus removing any conflict of interest. Once repealled, Wall St took 10 years of greed to get the banking and investment industry back to a crash. And since they were now tied together, when one failed the other was directly affected. So I beleive its funny to hear people blame the mortgagee and not the mortgager. It is the mortgage companies business to investigate a potential mortgagee, but rolled the dice and we the American tax payers paid the price. The ironism is we paid for bonuses so that these corporation could keep the best of the best employees, you know, the ones that caused the problem in the first place.

But the politicians have their special interests at heart, when I always believed they should have our interests at heart. Just follow the money, but pay no attention to the corporations and politicians behind the curtain!

floridamom1, a flat tax such as you are suggesting would be blatantly regressive. Someone grossing 50k a year is going to be impacted way more adversely by losing 5k than someone grossing 1m a year will be by losing 100k.

Americans First--- You're right. How can they defend themselves? This country is on the edge and Republicans don't think anything needs to be done to save it. Incredible!!!!

The Last GOP Slap Fest == The Crowd laughed at people's misery..................

They Only Care about #1 Themselves.

I am Spamming repeating this OLD GOP Job#1

Any Us citizen, Warren Buffet and his friends included, can pay more in taxes to the government any time they want, so why don't they?????

Buffet & his company have lawyers fighting the two to four billion he owes the IRS for about ten yrs. Nothing will be done for now because he's obama's pet billionaire; fits right in w/that thieving crowd. He won't contribute to the IRS fund. He's all show & bull; loves the attention from the press & WH.

Thousands of Americans have fought the IRS for decades because of their abuses and outright mafia tactics, so that Buffet is also fighting them gives me great pleasure.

The IRS have ruined the lives of countless people, so much so that Congress had hearings about it a few years ago. You are delusional if you think the IRS will bow to Obama if they have a legitimate claim against Buffet, but then again you are delusional anyway.

If you want to close the loop holes. Do as the rich do. Use the loop holes. The biggest one is transfer pricing. There are different forms of it. Its simple and stealthy.

TRANSFER PRICING. remmeber its the way forward.