Wow. If only we could curtail the cheating that goes on with the bankers and stop the bribery of elected officials as easily as we stop kids from cheating on their SATs. Of course, students wouldn't need to worry about SAT scores if they were born the children of an generous donor or high profile person.

Yes Julia, lets forever punish a kid for a mistake they made as a teenager. I'm glad to see you've never made a mistake.

No, I never cheated on my tests. I sweated through the SAT's just like all my friends. My parents would have been mortified if I had tried to scam my way through.

PS - I didn't have access to that kind of cash anyway.

You may have never cheated on a test but I'm sure you made a mistake. We shouldn't "nip their careers in the bud," essentially ruining their lives just because of a mistake made in high school.

PS-Maybe they worked for their money.

"Yes Julia, lets forever punish a kid for a mistake they made as a teenager."

Cheating on the SAT a "mistake"??? Are you @!$%#ing serious???

I'm sorry but this is the sort of thing that should permanently bar them from any legitimate university. Nearly all of which have one form of honor code or another. When reviewing the application they realize that you were so full of yourself that you would defraud them on a simple entrance exam of all things - you're surely going to try to cheat on something else while you're there. There's absolutely no room for cheaters at colleges and universities - they have no obligation to allow you in whatsoever.

Welcome to junior college cheating punks!

Hahahahaha. Yeah, they worked for their money. You can tell by the way they are trying to scam their way into top colleges and universities that these are hard-working, industrious, young kids that will contribute greatly to our Society. RealAmerican, are you smoking crack. People are judged by their actions and not by their words. These ARE spoiled rotten brat kids that always get what they want. And yes, they should be censored from applying and entering any college or university for at least two years!!!

Maybe Universities shouldn't rely on SAT scores so much. We all(I assume) know the stress the SAT can put on someone. Regardless of your grades in High School I imagine if you had a poor showing on the SAT it can negatively affect you.

My original complaint was not being accepted into college but for ruining their career. I don't know why you are arguing their admission into college.

Once again the government steps in and stifles free trade! These kids are what I call "Job creators" - they knew they wouldn't do that well so instead of moping around feeling bad for themselves they used the wits God gave them and the money their parents gave them and hired someone.

I remember back in the day taking a test for some kid from Texas who couldn't find his butt with both hands and a road map - well, to make a long story short - with the test grade I got for him - 1412 - he was able to get into Yale and the rest ... as they say ... is History!

Big difference between a youthful "mistake" and deliberate fraud. A mistake is when I wanted to see how fast my buddy's car would take a dangerous corner and I slammed it into a tree, totalling his car. I did not, however, try to tell the police that someone ran me off the road - thus launching an investigation into a fictional offense in order to deflect responsibility for my mistake.

And, I have serious doubts that all of these kids came up with the $1500 - $2500 on their own without their parents' knowledge. I'd be hauling some parents in for questioning, too.

A few grand? I had a few grand in highschool. I had a part-time job at a grocery store. You sound poor.

When I was in high school the majority of kids cheated and the majority of the cheaters cheated on every test. Should their careers be nipped in the bud as well?

ummm, listen to me. mistakes are made and it is true that they should be punished, but not like some of you people are claiming. they're not even fully cooked yet -- they should have to pay fines and do some community service ... it's really not that big of a deal. do you know how many students do this? just because these kids got caught and are in the media everyone is acting like this is so unnatural when it's not.

Cheating is not a mistake, it is a choice and they should pay for that choice.

Miker-great point! Most kids do not have a few grand in high school. Fatsean---we don't care what you had, this is about the norm. It is unlikely that kids would have a few grand, even with a part time job as most spend on recreation or a car.

I do not think he should be ruined for life, but please remember, he is a college student not a high school student. He knew what he was doing and went to the trouble of creating a fake I.D. He should be prosecuted. The kids involved should also be prosecuted and if their parents paid for it, guess what!

When you think about the trouble most of us experience trying to do well on these tests by doing the right thing, this just nullifies the statistical data that we chased. Perhaps is should be required that the test be taken at the child's high school so that the i.d. can be verified more effectively? Also, the tests dates and times should be consistent so that someone like this cannot take so many tests as he can only be at one place at one time. Internal control is needed.

"I imagine if you had a poor showing on the SAT it can negatively affect you."

Wrong... you are allowed to retake it.

They will accept whatever is your higher score.

I'm still laughing that somebody would try to call cheating on the SAT a "mistake" when it's quite clearly PREMEDITATED FRAUD AND CONSPIRACY TO COMMIT FRAUD!!!

Unless I'm mistaken a big complaint by the OWS protesters is against the CORRUPTION and CHEATING in big corporations. Yet some of you seem to think it's just a youthful mistake to cheat on one's SAT's. You do realize that the SAT's are one of the first big challenges a young man or woman faces as he or she enters adulthood-they enable him or her to enter college and, arguably, set up their trajectory for life. As such, they are extremely important! If a young man or woman is willing to cheat on this important exam, it says to me that they are likely willing to cheat on almost anything in their future life. And what's the justification given? Oh, kids cheat all the time. That's supposed to make me feel better? That just confirms what I'm saying. So what makes them any different from those who are being protested by OWS? If they would cheat on the SAT, what would they do in the future if they became head of a large corporation or a politician? After all, kids cheat all the time, right?

As for RealAmericanPatriot, what kind of patriot are you if you would approve of large majorities of students in high school cheating on every test? And people wonder why we have such a corruption problem in our government! Guess what! Corrupt students grow up to be corrupt adults! Do you think that after all this cheating they are suddenly going to "see the light" after graduation and stop cheating? Why should they if it has worked for them all these years? This isn't some little "mistake," obviously. This is a lifestyle. And it's ruining our country.

Of course I've made mistakes, but I didn't make excuses for them. I took responsibility and paid the price (sometimes after sweating it or trying to get out of it at first). That's what REAL adults and patriots do.

@Seen too much: Right on! But, sadly, that's the typical thinking today: "You should be in jail for cheating, but I should be allowed to cheat so that I can make up for the inequality between us."

...these kids show all the makings of a successful Wall Street investment banker

Real American Patriot, you write:

Lets forever punish a kid for a mistake they made as a teenager. I'm glad to see you've never made a mistake.

I don't see your logic in attacking this author . . . is this just a way to get away from the fact that your posts have little (or no) value? Please be a bit more reasonable. Of course, we ALL make mistakes!

However, making a mistake is one thing. Deliberately cheating, paying money, arranging for someone else to take a test, accepting the test results as their own work is another situation entirely. Using your logic, someone who as a teenager makes a "mistake" of shooting people in a drive-by, or who kills their own family or someone else, is entirely different. I don't think it is an appropriate thing to ignore "mistakes" of this magnitude.

As for whether they worked for their money or not, it is unlikely that they had that much money from working a part-time or even a full-time summer job. It's more likely that they either got it or took it from their parents. However, I think this is irrelevant (unless they stole the money, of course) to the question of the cheating on the tests.

So while our education and new job seekers are some of the lowest in the world, many of you think that the best way to handle this is to keep them out of college? That's a great idea. Hey, at least they will learn their lesson right? Why is our country so hell bent on teaching a lesson versus doing what makes sense.

Ok so maybe delaying them a couple years (which I saw mentioned above) makes sense but to ban them from any good college for a decision they made at 18 yrs old? Really. My cousin is an acct for Trump Enterprises and we went out during our Senior year and stole a light bar off of a cop car. Stuipd? yes. Against the law? yes. Dumb decision as a kid? yes. Something that should have altered our entire lives? Not at all. Get over yourselves people, you were kids once.

Glad to see some of these pampered Golden Coast yuppies being given a dose of reality.

I may have made mistakes in life -- some doozies too! -- but none of them involved the deliberate choice to cheat on tests that would be decisive in what school I attended.

That is beyond 'mistake.' That is intentional fraud. Why are some kids busting their butts studying to make good grades while these lazy little jerks don't want to give up their play and party time to do the same, and instead just buy their way into the grades they need.

RealAmericanPatriot

Yes Julia, lets forever punish a kid for a mistake they made as a teenager. I'm glad to see you've never made a mistake.

They cheated in order to get into competetive universities. Because of that, 13 other students lost their chance to attend those schools. This isn't a simple petty crime, people's lives and future careers have been affected.

My original complaint was not being accepted into college but for ruining their career.

They used these scores to get into competetive universities. That means 13 other students who didn't cheat lost their spot. This isn't a simple petty crime, people's lives and future careers have been affected.

Yes, their careers should be forfeit, since they stole those careers in the first place from deserving candidates. Would you hire an employee you know was a proven cheater?

The big argument here isn't that the kids should be punished, but how severe the punishment should be. Delaying their lives a few years seems like more than punishment enough. They could very well change. A few years is a big deal in a young person's life when it comes to how they deal with situations. In the end, the delay could be a good thing for them and they may appreciate second chances more than some people on here seem to appreciate.

RealAmericanPatriot

"When I was in high school the majority of kids cheated and the majority of the cheaters cheated on every test. Should their careers be nipped in the bud as well?"

Yes!

RealAmericanPatriot: Cheating, lying, and stealing are encouraged for future real American patriots ?Don't give this excuse about "making mistakes". Those are not "mistakes", those are moral choices some chose and many don't. Sounds like you lied about your name too.

I knew a guy who cheated on his ACT when I was a senior in high school. He got a really high score and several colleges were after him. Well, he flunked out before his first year ended because of partying and never finished college. Today his brain is burned out due to drugs and he can't hold a job. I don't dislike him or think he's a terrible person-I think it's really sad the way his life turned out, to be honest. However, he likely took the place of someone as a freshman who would have made it through the year and the entire four years-someone who may have even gotten a scholarship.

Everyone in one of my high school classes cheated. I would put in the time to do my homework and they all wanted to copy it. I said, "No way!" I did all that hard work, and they were just going to freeload off me? Besides that, I believed cheating was wrong. I was despised because I wouldn't let anyone copy my homework and get for nothing what I had worked my tail off to do. Others who did their work let people copy it, but I refused. How was it going to help my classmates anyway if they never learned the material they were supposed to learn? How would they succeed in life if all they ever did was copy words and never actually had to think about anything for themselves? My sister was once in a class where everyone cheated on a test except her. They all made good grades except her. They basically cheated her.

People on this vine CONSTANTLY complain that politicians and others can't think for themselves and don't have brains. Did it ever occur to you that maybe it was because they spent all of high school and college copying off each others' papers and never learning to think for themselves? Did you ever think that maybe those tests and homework assignments in school actually had a purpose other than to keep your teachers employed, that maybe you were supposed to be learning how to think and reason and figure things out-and that if you cheated all the time you might just miss that? Not to mention the fact that if you cheat all through school you are highly unlikely to stop suddenly once you graduate. And EVERYONE complains about our CORRUPT and CHEATING politicians! Where do you think they learned it? Where do you think those heads of corporations learned to cheat? Is it perfectly okay to cheat all through school but suddenly not okay when someone is cheating YOU? Isn't that a bit hypocritical, since cheating in school is also cheating someone else? (How many schools grade on a curve, after all?)

RealAmericanPatriot

"When I was in high school the majority of kids cheated and the majority of the cheaters cheated on every test. Should their careers be nipped in the bud as well?"

You went to school with Bernie Madhoff and Kenneth Lay? If you know who all these cheaters are, why don't you turn them all in so we all win?

Real AmericaPatriot is shallow in defending his stand.... he didn't understand the real issue.... cheating is not a mistake...

Naw, RaeRae, no need for outside intervention. If they cheated on every test, their lack of knowledge will be sufficient to strangle their careers. What's disgusting here, is the situational ethics these kids have learned from their parents and society.

"These are the new bankers/hedge fund managers"...hahaha

more like they are the new liberal democrat senators and congressmen/women

"We all(I assume) know the stress the SAT can put on someone"...more hilarious crap

LIFE puts stress on you...but then the libby mentality is always looking for the easy way out...it's called "entitlements"

flbikerchick wrote:

Would you hire an employee you know was a proven cheater?

No but others have fewer problems with cheating. As one example, Massachusetts voters elected Edward Kennedy to the US Senate several times despite his cheating in college and getting caught. I guess it doesn't matter as long as he supports a 3% increase in funds for the homeless or some such.

Nothing will change anytime soon. In politics it appears that cheating is a quality to be sought out and cultivated. Survive!

i made big bucks when I worked two jobs while going to high school and never managed to amass that amount of money these kids did to pay for someone to take these tests. Try telling me that the parents or at least one of the parents of each kid involved wasn't aware of what was going on. Sure the lawyers are trying to downplay the severity of what happened but this is a lot severer than meets the eye.

Those of you saying this is a "mistake" scare me. Paying or accepting over $1,000 to take an SAT for someone else clearly rises above the "mistake" level, and these young people are not children. BTW, I'm a former university admissions official. College education for the students involved is a privilege that probably won't be available to them, at least for the time being, and that's appropriate. If they want to attend college, perhaps they can convince their local community college to take a chance on them at some point and then hope for acceptance by a 4 year institution later. I doubt that either will happen right now.

These tests are considered WAY too important. Basically, they are a money -making scheme for companies that produce them, remnants of an era when they meant something. How about testing for how long it takes them to shoe a horse? That was important.....100 years ago.

After 4 years out of highschool, the SATs are ignored. Join the military and they are ignored.

What irritates ME is that these kids are looking at 4 years in jail for "fraud" (whatever....) while the bankers and other schemers of the same ilk who destroyed the worlds economy to the tune of TRILLIONS of dollars, and millions of ruined lives, haven't even gotten a slap on the wrist.

I would hit them with a $10,000 fine, and MAKE them do well in school. If they don't, THEN they go to jail.

Considering that a lot of colleges are hurting for enrollment these days, decreasing their populations seems like a stupid idea. Are the kids actions bad? Yes. Unethical? Yes.

Take a look at Congress, and THEN see who is worse. Are you gonna replace YOUR elected "representative"?

They made over 10 grand by cheating, that is too leniant. I have a feeling you'd be a little more upset if you or your child lost their chance to attend the university they want because of these slimeballs getting the spot.

So... we should just let fraud run rampant and not even try to stop it because it is inevitable? Well that's a depressing, defeatist attitude.

If these are the ones who were "found out," I can't help but wonder how many didn't get caught? I did okay on my SATs, (way back in the stoneages), but I can't help but wonder if some were cheating then, too. All said and done, a level playing field would be good for all.

I have the satisfaction of knowing that I earned the 1200+ I got on my SATs - and took the test ONE and ONLY ONE time. I'm curious if these little frauds will ever start to feel a little hollow for having gotten into colleges that would otherwise never have given their applications a second glance.

I take some satisfaction in knowing that at least a few of them won't be forced to develop a conscience on their own; their lack of true scholastic aptitude will likely show itself within their first two semesters.

These kids knew exactly what they were doing. This is fraud. It should stay on their record as they apply to college and let the college decide if they should be admitted.

When it's perfectly legal for our Congress to engage in insider trading, does this type of thing surprise anyone.

"Educating our children means more than teaching them facts and figures. It means teaching them honesty, integrity and a sense of fair play," Rice said in a news release.

This is in large part why why our education system is failing.

Nukeman

I don't think its perfectly legal, but they do it! And they should be in jail for it.

Waaaay too many people are defending this behavior.

Google "structural collapses" or "medical errors" if you want to see the results of people who DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING because they never learned the crap in the first place.

@RUCKUS-

What does taking the SAT have to do with learning medicine or becoming an engineer? Other than Doogie Houser, I don't know of any high school students doing surgery. Do you? Do you know a lot who are designing skyscrapers? Or anything else?

Are you saying that JUST BECAUSE somebody did well on the SAT they will make a good doctor, engineer, lawyer, manager. etc? Have any facts to back that statement up?

This whole thing is a tempest in a teapot. if you are so stupid as to have to hire somebody to take the SATs for you, I'm pretty sure that will keep you out of the technical / medical schools, and more likely send you into liberal arts. I went to RIT (RITdog!) and we saw kids drop out all the time because they couldn't hack it.

Almost any shrink will tell you that just because you TEST well, it's NOT a predicter of success.

"Almost any shrink will tell you that just because you TEST well, it's NOT a predictor of success."

Yet anybody with a clue would be very safe in asserting that if you can't do well on the SAT, you sure as hell aren't going to succeed on an engineering or med school midterm. If one cannot remember basic math, basic grammar, etc - the chances of memorizing hundreds of bone names (and all of their anatomical features) is nearly zero.

Your assertion about the shrink is reverse logic at best.

Some people say that the test is rigged or biased but they're wrong - it's very indicative of how somebody's performance on ANY long test will be.

And as so many have completely overlooked - they say they don't test well due to ADD etc - if you ask for extra time ahead of time due to medical reasons you WILL get it.

Goldman Sachs will be interviewing them shortly...

Sam,

Your ignorance is laughable.

Sincerely,

A Wharton grad.

Sam, get a job.

It's pocket change for some of these kids.

Duh. They got the money from their parents. You honestly think the parents didn't know?

The parents knew. These kids live in Great Neck, NY; a very affluent community. What regular kid has access to that kind of cash?

As a senior in high school I had $10k on hand because I had worked since I was 15 and practically saved every penny I could. It's not unheard of for a kid to have cash you know.

Well, you had Parents that paid for your food, martgage, cloths, books, etc...for school. They probably either gave you a ride to work or gave you a car, and you really had no expenses. There are some critical expenditures and support you are leaving out. You make it sound like you worked hard and supported yourself and saved that much money, which is not really the case. Your Parents helped you save that much.

@RealAmericanPatriot

Was one of your kids in this group?

Busy, busy defending the cheaters/scammers.

Yes starfox, I did have parents that provided me with meals and shelter during high school. Everyone on the board is saying these kids got the money from their parents, and I'm just saying it's possible for them to make some money on their own(obviously with some help from their parents).

And no onejulia, I'm not able to have kids.

Very easy for the girls to come up with that kind of money over a single weekend. Although in this case it sort of sounds like it was a barter exchange of services rather than a cash-based transaction.

um hello you people act like thousands of other kids aren't doing the same exact thing. just because these kids got caught everyone is acting like this is so uncommon and disgraceful. get over yourselves. they should be punished, yes. but this issue is never going away

You make it sound like parents aren't required by law to feed clothe and shelter their 15 year old children.

Deb, you're absolutely correct. A good teacher, adequate school resources, and a motivated student = learning.

Pragmatist, you're only partially correct. Motivated student = learning. With today's resources, there's nothing that can be learned in college that can't be learned in a library - for free. Who cares if they someone to take their tests? They're not paying for an education, they're paying for a piece of paper.

Unmotivated: I'm sorry your college experience has been that way. Mine was not. I loved my professors, who added insight and perspective to the materials and facts that were read. For example, they selected a combination of reading materials that pitted opposite ideas against each other, forcing you to see something of both sides of issues and events. That is something most people do not do when they select their own reading; instead they tend to select reading that reinforces what they already know or feel.

I get the concept of 'paying for a piece of paper'. Sadly, that seems to start in elementary school, where the concept picked up is not that one is learning, but that the goal is to get the correct answers on the paper, period, no matter how. Seems to be part of the instant-gratification, me-first attitude that too many Americans prefer to dwell in. However, I don't see that perspective in students whose parents value a genuine education as a means for genuine growth of a person, intellectually and spiritually. As I said, the first requirement of an education is motivated effort by the student. I have occasionally had a 'bad' teacher or two...but I learned anyway, because I wanted to, because I valued learning, and placed a much-lesser value on entertaining myself every possible moment, so I was not lazy or seeking the easy way out.

Deb, what do you expect from a liberal government that tries and tell the populace everything should be handed to them? How can parents encourage their kids when the liberals think it is abuse if you punish them for making a bad grade? The problem isn't NCLB it's the PC liberal BS you're pushing down our throats!

I'd be happy if MSNBC could spell and proofread.

RealAmerican - 'when the liberals think it is abuse if you punish them for making a bad grade'

I think that statement in itself describes you as a horrible parent. I've raised two kids, each good students who love to learn. They get that from their mother and myself. They see us read, they see us learn and they want to do it as well. If you have to resort to punishment to 'encourage' your child, then I suggest you are a failure as a parent.

Congratulations for being parent of the year C Wood. By the way, I'm not a parent, I'm not able to have kids, but I've worked in the school system for over a decade and I have seen this.

In college? I've got "college graduates" at work who can't write a cohesive sentence!

Deb W, What a pointed, clear, well-explained post. You have expressed yourself beautifully, and in doing so, clarified much for the rest of us who are not able to turn a phrase as nicely as you can.

One of the things you wrote was: "I loved my professors, who added insight and perspective to the materials and facts that were read." This is indeed one of the hallmarks of a great professor!

Thanks!

When I was in high school the majority of kids cheated and the majority of the cheaters cheated on every test.

And people wonder why this country is failing in education.

I'm sorry people feel that their college degrees are only a piece of paper, but I couldn't have learned in a library what I learned in college. It required hands on experience with professors guiding me and grading me on my work. No computer can do that. Along with four others I dissected a human cadaver and identified various body parts including numerous tiny, tiny nerves that had to be distinguished from fascial tissue in some cases-we needed guidance for that since no two bodies are the same, and it NEVER looks like the textbook in real life. We had a number of cadavers in our lab so we were able to see a number of variations in the human body. Some also had various disease processes that we were able to see. Granted that was anatomy class and neuroanatomy.

I also did things like qualitative analysis, which I had to do myself; and it had to be checked in person-a computer in a library could hardly provide reagents for you to analyze a beaker of chemicals-that was just plain old freshman chemistry. In physics we also had a lab, where everything was hands on and graded-couldn't be done by a computer in a library! Can you even write computer code on a computer in a library? I kind of doubt it. That was another of my classes-Computer Science, where I did programming. I liked that one so much I almost changed from premed to computer science. Other classes, like general psychology, I could have taken at a library-but I would not have had the extremely colorful professor I had. I had another psych class, however, that involved a research project where I assisted a teaching assistant with a Cybex (Not the stuff in the gym, but a computerized piece of equipment that measured knee extension/flexion speed, range of motion, and showed a readout of the pattern of the movement, etc) and some other computerized equipment involving tracking body motion sort of like a primitive version of what they did when they did the animation for Gollum on LOTR (I know a Cybex is not used for psychology-the prof let me do a project on something physical therapy related since I was transferring to PT school the next year.) Even aside from anatomy and neuroanatomy, a number of my PT classes were directly hands on-some with each other, some with actual volunteer patients. And then there were my internships...

Anyway, my college degree was a LOT more than a piece of paper and definitely could not have been learned in a library. That would have been true even without physical therapy school, as freshman chemistry, physics, those psychology classes, and computer science still would have been a part of it. Oh yeah, I had to take ballet and speech class as part of my prerequisites for PT school-can't do THAT in a library! What kind of awful classes are you guys taking that all of them can be taken in a library?

Exam cheating in many instances may be prosecutorial. BTW, ACTs can be taken w/out SATs to be admitted into college.

Yes, you can get into a university without the SAT. There are multiple options--there is the ACT; many colleges have their own aptitude tests though you have to physically go there and take it; some schools accept students who have completed adequent hours at an open-admission college or community college (which of course means that some colleges are open-admissions); some students are accepted on the basis of their high school work, especially if the high school was a well-known one with high standards; some students have taken enough advanced placement classes that they qualify nearly as "transfers."

Seriously--if you don't know what you are talking about, please don't. And, no, I don't believe that "all your children" have full-ride scholarships to Top 10 universities (unless you have no children, in which case, "all" = "none"). It is rare that students perform that well when mom is functionally illiterate (and, yes, your lack of punctuation gives that one away).

not a chance of admittance at top universities without at least 2100 SAT score

Not true--many universities, including Ivy League universities, have dropped the SAT or ACT requirement.

beanathome,

Please don't judge kids by their parents.

Fraud, theft of student aid? Identity theft.

That was a little uncalled for, Beanathome...I know many kids who earned academic scholarships despite humble upbringing, (let's not forget your idol, Obama!)...specific to my family, my mother dropped out of high school after the tenth grade; my dad joined the military right after high school (and stayed in for 20 yrs)...I have 2 sisters and a brother. My oldest sister graduated first in her class and had academic scholarships...my other sister, same...me? Same, full ride academic to a top 10 university...my brother, well, he was the exception. So, you may not think Karen is that intelligent (I think it's more that you just agree with her) but to doubt the success of her children based on that is rather closed-minded!!!!

The article does not say what they were charged with. I have a hard time imagining what crime has been committed that would require police intervention? The ETS is a private organization that charges money for taking their tests. I don't see that there is any crime involved in having someone take the test for you, and certainly not a crime that demands arrests and publicity like this. Suppose I start my own Acme Testing Service, and I discover that one of my customers is "cheating" (according to whatever definition I choose to apply). Will the police arrest that person for me? And will it be in the news? I didn't think so.

editing and writing are really atrocious these days, especially on msnbc I find

Does it really matter if u can understand the jist of what is being said ?

Yes, it matters even if YOU can understand the GIST of it. Do whatever you wish when writing text messages. However, substandard writing, and in particular obvious substandard writing as opposed to poor editing (which is bad enough), marks the writer as ignorant of the English language, just as the newsreaders' favored "between you and I" marks them as them as ignorant as well. The best among us make mistakes or have lapses, but repeated language gaffes become inexcusable among those who make their living from the written or spoken word.

Not that I really care what any of you are saying, but please don't knock grammar and proper spelling if you can not even spell careful correctly. There's only one 'L'.

"just as the newsreaders' favored "between you and I" marks them as them as ignorant as well."

Kettle meet pot.

RealAmerican: Do you get paid per comment you submit?

RealAmericanPatriot claims to work for a school system. RealAmericanPatriot claims to be old enough to have children and yet not to have any. RealAmericanPatriot posts multiple times during, as we can see, a workday.

This means that taxpayers are paying RealAmericanPatriot's salary while he spends his days wandering around MSN (yes, he spends a lot of time here) and posting inflammatory remarks. It would be interesting to find out just how many of these right-wing types who prowl MSN are either on the payroll at Fox or are defrauding taxpayers or their employers by posting when they are supposed to be working.

And, just for the record, I am a contract employee who wastes my own time and money by coming here.

Could someone find out what school system RealAmericanPatriot works for and get his fanny fired, please?

@Many Patent's Pete

The laws they allegedly broke are criminal impersonation in the second degree and falsifying business records in the second degree

Falsifying business records in the second degree (Penal Law § 175.05)

A person is guilty of falsifying business records in the second degree when, with intent to defraud, he:

1. Makes or causes a false entry in the business records of an enterprise; or

2. Alters, erases, obliterates, deletes, removes or destroys a true entry in the business records of an enterprise; or

3. Omits to make a true entry in the business records of an enterprise in violation of a duty to do so which he knows to be imposed upon him by law or by the nature of his position; or

4. Prevents the making of a true entry or causes the omission thereof in the business records of an enterprise.

Falsifying business records in the second degree is a class A misdemeanor.

Criminal impersonation in the second degree (Penal Law § 190.25 [1])

A person is guilty of criminal impersonation in the second degree when he Impersonates another and does an act in such assumed character with intent to obtain a benefit or to injure or defraud another

thanks Another Brian, you have enlightened me.

I still think the whole testing thing is a sham. so they shammed the shammer.

Beth, It would seem to me that the students' grades are also based on tests and so I would expect to see a significant correlation between their class grades and their SAT scores. That being said, since little evidence exists to suggest that SAT scores are well correlated with success in college, we could eliminate this cheating by simply eliminating the use of these standardized tests as part of the admission process.

The SAT does not test either intelligence nor potential. It tests what material a student has learned. If the student cannot pass a test with that same material, it stands to reason that there is something amiss when the student CAN suddenly pass a test in a much more stressful environment.

A student who does well in classes and yet poorly on tests might simply have test anxiety. But, a student who miraculously can do mathematics on the SAT test which that student cannot do on a test in the classroom is to be suspected.

Standardized tests are okay--but, remember, they are not the only means by which students get admitted, and one can get admitted to many universities without them. A student who fails the SAT isn't likely to do well in college (they often do not go), but there is no guarantee that a student who does well on the SAT will do correspondingly well in college.

Colleges are aware of this and are trying to come up with better predictors. For now, the SAT helps to screen out those who would be woefully in need of remedial classes, which are expensive, resource-consuming, and which colleges do not want to have to provide since they already exist in community colleges.

Beth, how did you know it was me?

Didn't do a stitch of work in high school, got bullied for being smart, A'ced all of the tests so they couldn't fail me. got out of there with a D average and got a 4.0 in college, without taking an SAT. bored? heck yeah...these shchools don't (or didn't) know what to do with aternate learners.

Life is what you make of it for yourself. life is the test, the test is not 1 saturday afternoon in someone's gym taking a series of standardized questions on a sheet of paper.

It would be interesting to know how you managed that, Pete. You say you "A'ced" all the tests, but got out with a D average. Hmmmmm. And I don't know what an "aternate" learner is, or a "schchool." Can you clarify?

Pete, I'm sure there are a lot of people who see themselves in my comment. It's not as uncommon as many people want to believe.

I got an underwhelming 1060 on my SATs and ended up with a 3.94 GPA from college. I need to read slow for comprehension, always have, and at the time (mid-80s) ADHD didn't exist yet. Succeeding really is mainly putting in the grunt work and showing up.

Shame on the kids for cheating, but shame on the system for putting so much worth on a meaningless standardized exam.

Wow, I would have thought that Presidential politics were so totally removed from the subject of this article that only a total nincompoop or a fixated ideologue would try to connect it to the current administration in Washington.

I was wrong.

...or was I?

Umm...gallows...the school kids aren't getting arrested, the idiot college student is for perpetrating a FRAUD for monetary gain! You know, there are laws against this sort of thing or should those be done away with as well? Are you an OWS believer?

Agree with you Gallows,

The only people that got hurt in this situation, were the ones that got caught cheating. No need to ruin the rest of their lives over a mistake. We were all young and dumb once. We may not have made this particular mistake but I'm sure everyone has a bone or two in their closet.

Um, slide 6 - who exactly is being cheated out of anything by the college student? The high schooler who is paying a private company to put a number on her record? The SAT testing company who got paid to administer a test? A college, who will get paid ENORMOUS amounts of money from any kid that gets in?

But of course, the colleges can, and do, use any method for evaluating whether a student gets in or not - including mummy and daddy's alumni status and gifts to the alumni association.

We haven't prosecuted EVEN ONE of the bond raters at Moody's who gave junk mortgages AAA ratings, and they defrauded people of BILLIONS. I don't like cheaters, but we don't live in a meritocracy either.

I say good on 'em for getting a place at the starting line.