Right, because the National Guard did such a great job of crowd control at Kent State. The protesters don't have a right to occupy parks indefinitely but they certainly have the right not to be brutalized in the manner you suggest

Mr. X-Ray:

You BET!!!! LA is notorious for spectacular riots, and fights with the Police. Their jails right now are packed with other seedy characters. The Mexican Border is nearby----

Stay-Tuned---Am sure ALL the Protesters from all over the US have now congregated in LA to be and be seen on the News Stations.

What is their "point" now?---

When they go in they'd better have cameras video taping the whole mess. They'll need it in court.

Capt. Porker,

the 99% is about having to breath twice as much carbon dioxide as 150 years ago. it is about 40 % less phytoplankton in our oceans. It is about consumerism that leads a toxic existence and a drug addicted society. It is about a planet and a world economy that is on a crash coarse and an 80 billion dollar bank bailout. It is about American terrorists that invade other countries and kill people. It is about selfish Americans that only care about their pathetic lives that are so wrong that they feel vindicated to watch police hurting others that are only camping in a public place with children...what is the problem....they are wrong for not living a careless fuel driven lifestyle that is not going to be supported in less than 20 years... this the future folks and it is not going away....it is inevitable. The system is failing and will collapse, the planet is dying people....it is really to late so enjoy your media blind side, it won't last, sorry.

Porkchop, you are tiananmen square. You may disagree with the protesters message, but they are your fellow citizens and a tank driving over them is the same as a tank driving over you. You want a tyrannical government, shame on you if you are an American citizen.

Throw them out... they made their point now it is time to get out of the park! So the 99% and their family's can use the park again.

Americans who wants to brutalize the protestors are not worthy of being American. In 1776 American protestors staged worst demonstration and riots than any OWS which has been peaceful until the police insist on denying their 1st Amendment. The Established Powers had always found excuses to brutalize and arrest those who want to assemble and protest as redress against corrupt government policy. Today, cops armed to the teeth like paramilitary troops with machine guns, armor vehicle, and helicopter gunships are the tools to suppress the American people.

When the Federal government mortgaged several generations of Americans to bailout the WallSt FatCats, every American should protest. When the Federal Reserve gives free money, nearly $8trillions, to the WallSt Bankers while millions of Americans are jobless, homeless, and hopless, Americans should outraged. When the corrupt politicians selectively bailouts their favorite corporations while thousands of American small business go under, the American people should demand justice.

Unfortunately, too many Americans have been brainwashed by government propaganda. They are lead by their nose to kill and be killed in foreign wars for liberty, justice, and America even when there is no liberty at home to stage protest; WallSt FatCats criminals receive no justice under the law; and America is a fascist state ruled by privileged groups.

To ensure the loyalty of the cops, the Elites are paying them well. To ensure the Elites' survival and power monoply, cops are hired for their brutality, cold-blooded violence, and mercenary instinct. Tonight, a few of the Los Angeles OWS protestors will pay with their lives. Others, with their blood. And the Elites of the fascist state will once again triumphant.

It is incredibly sad to see freedom die in the United States.

Since the beginning in 1776, the world's poor and persecuted have always looked to America as a place where freedom and justice prevail. Now 235 years later we are watching the decline and fall of America.

One of the world's last bastions of freedom and hope turns into just another totalitarian regime, where its' people are treated with brutality and deadly force because of their political beliefs.

A Messenger:

During WWII, the Japanese Americans were sent to concentration camps for no reason other than having a certain physical appearance and Japanese ancestry. For these Americans, there were no liberty, justice, or the protection of the US Constitution.

Under government propaganda, the Japanese Americans were deemed a threat to national security. They must be rounded up. Several of them defied the government order and were subsequently, tried, convicted, and incarcerated. One of the cases, the Korematsu v US, went all the way to the US Supreme Court. There, even the US Supreme Court did not find any Constitutional protection for the Japanese American. At the end of the war after their release from the concentration camps, many of the Japanese Americans return home only to find their personal and real property confiscated and sold.

Despite suffering the injustice and violence at the hands of the government, many Japanese Americans enlisted in the US Army to show their patriotism during the height of WWII. The US Army of WWII was a segregated institution. It had all-Black American divisions as well as all-Japanese American divisions. As to the all-Japanese American division, they were the soldiers of the 100th and 442nd Division, the most highly decorated units in the entire US military history for bravery, sacrifice, and valor.

One of the wounded soldiers is today's Senator Inouye, who, in 1945, came home without an arm and limping into a small grocery store. The store owner toke one look at Inouye and said, " We don't serve Japs."

LA Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa and the Los Angeles City Council are totally and completely incompetent...they practically welcomed this protest movement with open arms and now they are forced to pay 1700 police officers overtime to break it up...not to mention the costs of repairing the broken up portions of the public park! Glad the City of Los Angeles has a lot of extra money to throw around.

At this point they have pleased no one, because of their mis-management they are losers in the eyes of the protestors, and losers in the eyes of the public who will foot the bill for this fiasco!

After the park has been cleaned out...clean out City Hall!

Porkchop never heard of East Timor - gets all riled up over a headline with "Riot" in it - and has no intention of ever learning the facts about what America does here and abroad...his bubble is warm and cozy and Fox throws enough logs on his fire to keep him in his place.

Riot Police? doesn't sound like any riot I ever saw...the police must love it when the media makes their job harder, or they get caught up in the media hype and start thinking they are dealing with rioters. Illegal searches and arrests are easy over time for New York cops - why no coverage of what they do there to minorities? You want a riot - keep mistreating minorities and the poor and they will make the OWS people look like saints....or did you miss the part where churches are opening their doors all across the country to the OWS protesters.

Ernie:

People's right to exercise Constitutional protected rights are always in tension with certain government interests. All governments seek to usurp the rights of the people as the power of government grows larger. The Framers of the US Constitution were well aware of this struggle, and hence, they enshrined the Bill of Rights as special Amendments to the US Constitution. Despite the Framers' special effort to secure these rights to the people, the government has grudgingly allowed the free exercise of the Bill of Rights by passing various laws that narrow the application of the Bill of Rights.

By passing various laws that constantly nibble away at the Bill of Rights, the government has basically achieved its goal of eroding too much of the guaranteed liberty. All Americans, whether you're a cop, teacher, or a working-stiff have the duty to protect the Constitution. Nobody is allowed to claim, " I'm just doing my job," while violating the US Constitution or laws. The Nuremburg Trial is instructive: unlawful orders must be disobeyed.

Most cops are hired for their brawn not brain. It is not a coincident. The Established Powers had intented it that way. A cop who carries out orders is a good cop while a cop who asks too many questions is a bad cop. It's not surprising so many of them brutalize the American people.

What's your Point Fat Cat????

Attaining democracy is hard; retaining it, even more difficult. “Those who make peaceful revolutio­­n impossible will make violent revolutio­­n inevitable." John F. Kennedy

These people certainly have a right to their beliefs and they have the right to protest, but they do NOT have the right to take over public parks indefinitely and trash them and make them such that others cannot use them. They also drive away business from the area and in so many ways show a complete lack of respect for the 99% they pretend to represent. I am NOT a one-percenter, and none of my friends are, either. And I assure you that this group does NOT represent my views nor the views of the vast majority of people that I know. They are the kids I knew in college who liked to say things like, "Grades aren't everything, dude. You've got to have some balance in your life." Translation: I am flunking out but am having a REALLY good time here!

To Dani Seakey.

You are so, so right on. It's already too late. The world is involved in a major ecological collapse and nothing can stop it. After the die-back maybe the remaining relative few will realize that real wealth is in a healthy planet. So much more could be said, but people have to find this out for themselves.

Go4Broke:

It was my response to A Messenger's blog published above about the theoretical passage of his 'NAZI Authorization Act' that would deprive Americans the due process as guaranteed by the US Constitution. My point is that American history has already shown a precedent, and hence, nothing would surprise me when there's enough hate and prejudice in America.

Note: "Go For Broke" was a popular term used by the soldiers of 442nd, and also made famous during their offense in the Italian campaign during WWII.

I'm amused when I see all the comments about how ugly this is going to be, it's gonna be a huge riot, police are gonna kill someone in the process, and yet now that it's over those same alarmists are standing there with egg on their faces.

The sun of the US empire is setting.... Way to go LAPD..Bad boys ha.... Very sad......

you may disagree with the protesters message, but they are your fellow citizens

NEWSFLASH: Anyone or any group that disrupts commerce, causes street businesses to close down because of the trash, filth and debris that drives away customers, invades Wal Mart on Black Friday and leaves 75 shopping carts all over the store full of perishable food, tries to block shoppers from entering Black Friday stores, and threatens to "bring it to the streets of the suburbs" is NOT my "fellow" citizen (oh PLEASE try blocking the streets of my neighborhood... PLEASE).

They are domestic economic terrorists to me. I'm fed up with them and the majority of America is now against them. Their 15 hours of fame are up. Time to pack up, go home to mommy and daddy, and FIND A JOB to pay off your student loans. If you have to get more than one job to make ends meet temporarily, then put your big girl panties on and suck it up. If you have to move to find a job, then MOVE. I have done both. You start appreciating things when you have to EARN them.

Can you imagine these whiners in the 1800s trying to cross America and head to the West Coast in covered wagons? They'd have gone about 10 miles and given up.

Well, it's now morning, most went home and the remaining were arrested. No big ugly scene as some above predicted.

And no, 1st amendment rights does not included trespassing, destruction of private or public property, or keeping non-protesters from pursuing their lives. So no, these people have not lost their 1st amendment rights, just been forced to stop breaking the law.

It became apparent some time ago OWS protesters were marionettes for the radical left wing. They do not truly represent the "99%." Nothing has been accomplished by them, except to waste lots of Taxpayer money during hard times.

10tacle,

The economic terrorists are the people who caused trillions of dollars in economic harm, not a bunch of thugs who left some meat out to spoil.

Every time the authorities move strongly against the Occupiers the movement gets stronger. As long as they continue in the nonviolent tradition of Ghandi and ML King they will prevail in the end. The Big vs Small, Wall Street vs Main Street concerns of OWS are shared by the vast majority of Americans and the smears of those paid to represent the interests of the 1% won't change that.

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
Mohandas Gandhi

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/m/mohandasga103630.html

Apparently little known fact: When we sent messengers and diplomats to as England for better treatment, those in power laughed at us, and sent us packing.

In the end, we took what we wanted by force.

True story.

The OWS should have been arrested long ago!! This is a long time coming and it's about time. I'm getting tired of being held "Hostage" by this group of law breakers. I know people who are raising a family that had their hours cut or have lost their jobs because of the OWS. The OWS would lead you to believe that they are looking out for the "little people" but all they have accomplished is destruction and more unemployment. This so-call representatives of the "99%" actually represent much less than "1%" of the "99%". Politicians and Law enforcement should stop pandering to this group of deadbeats and throw them in prison. Any donations the OWS has gotten should be used to re-pay for the damages to Public & Private Property caused by these deadbeats.

Maybe Herman Cain should join up?? If it doesn't help him at least he'd have some new turf to plow.

In a statement, LA Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa says: "We have taken a measured approach to enforcing the park closure because we have wanted to give people every opportunity to leave peacefully. I ask that anyone who remains in the park to please leave voluntarily."

He says a "First Amendment area" will remain open on the Spring Street City Hall steps while the park is closed.

Where in the United States Constitution does it say that the government is empowered to ban public protesting everywhere except a few special areas that they designate as "free speech zones"?

The UNITED STATES is a "First Amendment Area"!

JoeB-460595 The OWS should have been arrested long ago!! This is a long time coming and it's about time. I'm getting tired of being held "Hostage" by this group of law breakers. I know people who are raising a family that had their hours cut or have lost their jobs because of the OWS

Really? The entire movement should be arrested? What percent of the supporters of OWS have broken the law? Do you have any idea at all or are you just wanting to stop people from protesting if you don't agree with their message?

Just roll in the fire trucks and hose them down with the water cannons and detergent. A few nights of that and they will all crawl back to mommy's basement. Besides, these scum all need showers and a lesson in hygiene anyway. We may as well give them one.

Would it be any different if they were waving the Mexican flag..?

OK, we give up. Tell us what you want and we'll give it to you, you made your points, we think. If you can figure out what you're protesting about, write it down and come see us.

@JoeB-460595, I'm tired of being held hostage by Corporations and politicians who bend laws or make laws against the very nature of America and Freedoms. I'm just waiting until someone at OWS movement gets shot by cops, then you will see some real protesting. I'm an old school farmer and have no problems shooting anyone in government that tries to deny me my freedoms in the Constitution.

The entire Constitution, not the cliff notes version that the TeaParty and Republicans skipped around reading. (You do know they missed the parts about slavery and other embarrassing actions done by the Republicans in charge?)

Message to occupy people: Get a life. The rest of us are working while you are trashing our parks.

to all the OWS haters here,

get used to it !!!!!!!!

this is only the start of the American down trodden outrage. You can only push people so far, and then they will start to fight back.

yes it's ugly, but it will get uglier

Just roll in the fire trucks and hose them down with the water cannons and detergent. A few nights of that and they will all crawl back to mommy's basement.

Yeah, that's exactly what caused the Civil Rights Movement to collapse before it could get any traction.

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
Mohandas Gandhi

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/m/mohandasga103630.html

Junicon:

Where in the United States Constitution does it say that the government is empowered to ban public protesting everywhere except a few special areas that they designate as "free speech zones"?

Fantastic! The encampment can move to your front lawn then.

No one is saying they can't exercise their free speech, but camping out in the park is not included in that free speech. I have absolutely no problem with OWS exercising their free speech and protesting. But I don't agree with their camping out in public areas, making them unusable for the rest of us.

I actually agree with some of what OWS is protesting... but I think they're protesting the wrong people. Our government that grants these corporations all of the tax loopholes, regulations, etc. Why protest people who are just taking advantage of what is given to them? Why not protest the people that actually let corporations get away with what they do?

The eviction of the people from the occupy movement means nothing, as the movement is global and shouldn't necessarily be tied in to any one location.

The movement will only grow in size as those who start to question what is going on will soon find out that the systems of government set in place don't serve the majority of the people. The privileged elite are out to disrupt the entire social-political-financial fabric of every country so they can rule a planet of virtual slaves.

There is nothing new in this movement to starve the many to make them more obedient to the rule of the elite, just look up the 'hut tax' and how it was used in Africa.

We are being lulled into a false sense of patriotism to serve a system that is being set up to exploit the many for the extreme greed of a few. America is being set up to fail so that a new one world government can take its place.

If you feel like doing more research than look up the history of the Federal Reserve Bank and which banks are the members of this cartel.

Two Philadelphia police officers were taken to hospital with minor injuries following a "scuffle" with anti-Wall Street protesters while clearing the city's Occupy encampment, authorities told NBC Philadelphia.

Wall Street ain't in Philly. WTF? Ahh the fruits of a public school education. The authorities in the North and Eastern cities are doing these losers a favor. They've given them an excuse to clear out before the really cold weather sets in. I predict Cali is going to get a large influx of lazy, entitlement demanding, quasi-intellectuals who, even now, are thinking of the stories they'll tell their grandchildren about how they took it to the "man" in the Winter of 11/12 in sunny California with some douche bag cliche about having flowers in their hair. As another poster so aptly put it. What are your demands? Make a list so we can understand what you want. You put together a bunch of Left Wing Radical Liberal/Progressive Wack job Marxist pablum eating nut jobs and I'm sure that list will be very enlightening to who these freaks are. Here's a clue. The 60s were over 40 years ago and it wasn't as great as the worn out old hippies say it was. Get a clue Jr., get a job, and get an effing life. If you really want to protest something go on and protest the big eared jug headed clown in the White House who with his Leftist conspirators has mortgaged your future to Third World status. Yeah buddy. Yours and future generations are headed for a downward spiral that will result in your generation being less than the prior. Congrats!

I also believe that you did NOT read the story, it stated plainly, there were NO DRUGS or WEAPONS at the camp. So go ahead and keep listening to the lies from the media and state, and be a good communist and consume more.

I just want to remind all those who parrot "their message"

If they want to to protest nothing it is their right to protest that under the constitution.

I know it is hard to pick up a book and read said document....but it is the law of the land.

@Capt. Porkbelly (or w/e):

Yeah, that plan worked well at Kent State, didn't it.

@trust:

That event will likely be what tips the scales and turns Occupy: Wherever into the 2nd Civil War.

@JK (and those who think along these lines): You don't have to agree with these people, but you do have to allow them exersize their rights, because it is in the nature of government to take those rights if and when no one is using them, and that includes YOUR right to tell these folks to Get a life.

Messageto JK: Get a life, the rest of us are trying to make things better while you are ruining our country and making other people rich.

Can you imagine these whiners in the 1800s trying to cross America and head to the West Coast in covered wagons? They'd have gone about 10 miles and given up.

Funny you say that because if it wasn't for people with the same mindset and courage to act on that mindset as OWS, this country would never exist. It's funny because you don't realize that, but then again, I wouldn't expect someone of your ilk to brush up on their history.

Occupy jailhouse.....

When OBL flew planes into the towers, he greatly impacted commerce. His supporters would say that was the point. OBL often said that was the point to hurt the economy of the US. OBL was not considered a protester but a terrorist. So now when protesters claim to want to shut down ports for 2 weeks which will greatly impede commerce, many of you on here support that action. So you pick and choose who you label a terrorist.

Many small businesses around these encampments that originally supported the protests believing it would last a day or so are the very ones now pleading with the cities to remove them because COMMERCE has been impacted. Imagine if you owned a business that nobody was coming to anymore because of the chaos around your place of business.

Please, some of you need to think about these issues with your brains and not your feelings.

So now when protesters claim to want to shut down ports for 2 weeks which will greatly impede commerce, many of you on here support that action. So you pick and choose who you label a terrorist

Well, to their credit, they have only killed and raped a few, not over 3,000

Those who forget their history are doomed to repeat it.

Apparently, we are going to demonstrate that axiom here in America. We went to war with England in the last quarter of the 18th century over "Taxation without representation." The so-called Tea Party of the 21st Century is trying to make a similar claim, but in actuality they are puppets of the 1%. Dick Armey and the Kochs created the "tea party" in order to preserve the rights of the wealthy, not the 99%.

The "Occupy" movement is the true descendants of the Boston Tea Party. They stand for the common man and woman, not the 1%.

Sadly, most of you do not and cannot understand that. You are dupes of the high and the mighty. The Congress of the United States has been bought and paid for by the wealthy and they are only interested in preserving the status quo, not the American dream.

If someone doesn't way up and smell the coffee soon we'll see a second American revolution. Don't think it can happen? Look at Egypt, Tunisia, Libya. We labeled it "Arab Spring". We'll be looking at an "American Spring" in 2012 or 2013 if things continue they way they are going. Frankly, I welcome it. Thanks to the GOP and their wealthy supporters America has lost it's way and revolution may be the only way to find the American dream again.

This is how it starts folks. Instead of demonstrating your ignorance on this board, why don't you read a little history. Start with the American Revolution, then the French Revolution and then the Russian Revolution and see how they progressed and what happened in the end. Then review the credible news sources about the Arab Spring and finally take another look at the US "Occupy" movement.

You might be surprised what you learn.

Notice how the corporate bloggers avoid the real issues.

They use personal attacks and hate talk.

Typical Propaganda techniques.

These OWS protesters should realize that as Americans we should all be happy that we live in a country where corporations and banks police themselves.

The left should be ashamed that great companies like British Petroleum, Goldman Sacks, Bank of America and Citibank have to deal with government harassment. The government should be here to protect the rights of international corporations (citizens), not people who just so happen to live here!

History shows that when the government gets involved with "regulations" it can damage the bottom line.

We would be better off if we didn't force Lehman Brothers and Enron to close.

When the money rolls in DON'T ASK QUESTIONS!

When the Police give you an order OBEY!

Who do these people think they are? Assets?

The so-called Tea Party of the 21st Century is trying to make a similar claim, but in actuality they are puppets of the 1%. Dick Armey and the Kochs created the "tea party" in order to preserve the rights of the wealthy, not the 99%.

Wrong...they want fiscal responsibility. Propogandizing yourself arnt you skip. Nice addition of the Koch brothers. You are so brainwashed that the Koch brothers set off your saliva glands like Pavlov's dog.

The "Occupy" movement is the true descendants of the Boston Tea Party. They stand for the common man and woman, not the 1%.

...and what are they protesting? The products, and the makers of those products that they all enjoy? Cell phones, computers, clothes, sleeping bags, tents. If they dont like it, dont @!$%#ing buy the @!$%#. Knit those sleeping bags. Make tents out of reeds and leaves, maybe animal hides. The most productive move you all made awhile back was to move money from bank accounts to credit unions. That is how you fix it. You stop spending in those areas that you despise

This is how it starts folks. Instead of demonstrating your ignorance on this board, why don't you read a little history. Start with the American Revolution, then the French Revolution and then the Russian Revolution and see how they progressed and what happened in the end. Then review the credible news sources about the Arab Spring and finally take another look at the US "Occupy" movement

This may happen again, I agree. We are completely divided. I will never agree with you, and you will never agree with me.

The "Occupy" movement is the true descendants of the Boston Tea Party. They stand for the common man and woman, not the 1%.

WHAT? You are so wrong on this it's painful to read. The Boston Tea Party was fighting for no taxation without representation and the freedom to pursue industry for oneself (entrepreneurship). They would detest many of the requests of the OWS movement as they were for smaller government and fewer taxes. They were libertarians at heart who feared true democracy and despised socialism. They would never fight for handouts or "loan forgiveness."

If you want to pay homage to the original Boston Tea Party, then take advantage of the democratic republic they fought for by finding yourself a candidate to vote for. And read a history book.

And, BTW, go chat with some French and Russian folks to find out how that all worked out for them. It's not all rainbows and roses.

Kornfed is right! We should all be proud of the Asian made sleeping bags and the American made credit default swaps!

Ernie-201266

Fat Cat,I take it by your post that you are a low life, law breaking waste of air, who has had numerous bad contacts with the Law? Either that our you're just trying to stir up hate and discontent for a group of people who get paid to enforce laws made by people you elect to office. Are you jealous that the cops have jobs and you don't or is it that you are a career criminal who can't seem to stay out of trouble?

What part of TRESPASSING/ILLEGAL OCCUPATION/DESTRUCTION OF PUBLIC PROPERTY being committed by these OWS people across this country don't you understand? L.A. gave these people plenty of warning to leave or be forcibly evicted. Those who were truly peaceful and only wanted to make their cause known have left. The rest will be dealt with in a manner of their choosing as in most cases the cops use that force that is made necessary by the perpetrator of the crime. Yes there are a relatively few bad cops as there are bad seeds in most any large organizations. Sooner or later these types are found out and dealt with!

Bottom line is most cops simply do their job which is LAW ENFORCEMENT. Don't like the laws that are being enforced? You have three basic choices in this country. (1) Peaceful distention. This means you break the law to make your point and the go to jail like a good little criminal. (2) Get the people you elect to change the laws. Hell there are some laws out there that even the cops don't agree with, but it is not their job to decide which laws to enforce and which not to. (3) Don't break the laws and you don't have to worry about it..

Get the idea? For some reason I seriously doubt it!

I take it from your post that you are a mindless slave to the system. First of all our current political system is so corrupt, it doesn't matter who we vote for, they're just going to be more of the same thing we already have. Democrat, Republican, there is no difference. Until people wise up and start looking for third party candidates to vote for, nothing is going to change the crony capitalism that's been in place for decades upon decades now. These police state thugs are put there to protect the rich, the 1%, at the expense of the rest of us. Even the Supreme Court has said they are under no obligation to protect us. Just Google the term "police under no obligation to protect" and you'll see article after article on this fact.

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&cp=33&gs_id=2q&xhr=t&q=police+under+no+obligation+to+protect&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&site=&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=police+under+no+obligation+to+pro&aq=0w&aqi=q-w1&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=6de4e8b0720c48a0&biw=1262&bih=702

And how are they breaking the law? In case you haven't heard of The Constitution, the FIRST LAW of our country, the first ammendment says:

First Amendment – Establishment Clause, Free Exercise Clause; freedom of speech, of the press, and of assembly; right to petition

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Now, see that part highlighted in bold? That right there says, the government CANNOT pass any laws to limit the right of free speech by the protesters. That means these pigs, going in and breaking up the camps, as well as the ones ordering them to do so, are being 100% unConstitutional.

But then our Constitutional rights are being squelched by our previous and current Presidential administrations on a daily basis, so why would we expect these protesters to get any different treatment?

The problem with our country is people like you who stand idly by and let the police state brutality and the powers that be get away with this. This is no longer the United States of America that I grew up believing in. It's looking more and more like Germany in the late 1930s and 40s. The more they are allowed to get away with, the further they're going to go, until it's too late to stop them any more.

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out - because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out - because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out - because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out - because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me - and there was no one left to speak out for me.

PH-3046605 is right!

The founding fathers detested socialism, even before it existed!

OWS needs to occupy Washington. That is who makes the laws and is in bed with the big wall st. guys. I know people that work at small investment firms and they are being regulated and audited to death, but the big guys have no problem. Same is true with most small businesses. Are they trying to regulate the small business out? Hmmm. Something is wrong here. Google OWS backers...it is being funded by Soros and Adbusters, an anticapitalist group out of Canada. I'm sure they are laughing at all these people being arrested. Very sad.

"Just think...when the new NAZI Defense Authorization Act is passed, they can charge all these people (along with everyone else, including US citizens) with terrorism, send us to military prison indefinitely, with no charges, no judge, no jury...just like the NAZI's did to their own population. Get ready folks...NAZI America is here:"

They already can it's called the patriot act. All that needs now is someone to in power to abuse it.

Indigo-Rage,

That event will likely be what tips the scales and turns Occupy: Wherever into the 2nd Civil War.

Really? Doesn't something like organizing and running a civil war take, I don't know, gumption, motivation, and courage? I'm not sure I've seen any of that. I don't count sitting around all day banging on a drum occasionally, not bathing, and once in a while getting off your butt to repeat what others are saying over a PA system the basis for a effective civil war. I may be wrong but I think there's more to it than that.

Authorities are being pressured by the government, aka the political parties in Washington. The world is watching these mini revolts in our 'peaceful society that allows freedom of expression.' Support is gaining for the movement here and the world is seeing this. The world is not against the citizens of the united states it is against the political government which bases its laws and policies on religion. Go figure.

FATCAT, thanks for the laughs during my morning coffee. You like to quote "history" when it seems to me that you revise it as you go. Trying to relate OWS to the depth of depravity that we inflicted on the Japanese Americans during WW2 is disgusting and you should be ashamed at that analogy.

Get over to your litter box, and sell your idiocy somewhere else, we full up on here already.

skip Nicholson, Oklahoma City

Those who forget their history are doomed to repeat it.

Apparently, we are going to demonstrate that axiom here in America. We went to war with England in the last quarter of the 18th century over "Taxation without representation." The so-called Tea Party of the 21st Century is trying to make a similar claim, but in actuality they are puppets of the 1%. Dick Armey and the Kochs created the "tea party" in order to preserve the rights of the wealthy, not the 99%.

Actually, the Tea Party was started by Ron Paul, his original intentions were to remove the 1% from having any influence over our current political system, but then people like the Koch brothers came in and hijacked the movement, and now in it's current state, some of it's more prominent members are puppets of the 1%.

You are drooling all over yourself, arnt you Prohibition

The funny part is, Proohibition and I may actually agree on most things. Ron Paul is now my guy as well. He will never get a chance though. No, not because of the Koch brothers....but because he is a little quirky, and does not have support from the establishment Republicans. The drones of both parties make sure that establishment talking points are well versed, molding the minds of most, hindering individual thought and reason.

Kornfed,

Individual thought and reason is beyond most peoples' abilities anyway. The average human being is incapable of serious critical thinking. Why? Because their emotions override their intelligence 99% of the time. You don't have to look any further than these comment boards to see the proof of that.

You have individuals here that support the OWS crowd, but refuse to condemn any of the bad things that they've done. You also have individuals here who totally condemn the OWS crowd, but refuse to acknowledge that they have many valid arguments and concerns. Both sides are ruled by emotion, not by rational thought.

What a surprise.

Kornfed,

On February 19, 2009,^[52] in a broadcast from the floor of the Chicago Mercantile Exchange, CNBC Business News editor Rick Santelli criticized the government plan to refinance mortgages, which had just been announced the day before. He said that those plans were "promoting bad behavior"^[53] by "subsidizing losers' mortgages". He suggested holding a tea party for traders to gather and dump the derivatives in the Chicago River on July 1

Ron Paul had nothing to do with it. You obviously make this crap up as you go along.

Read a little more thoroughly Svenolafson...I didnt make the claim hehe

There is that emotion you were talking about Wizard!

@ concealedweapon.

In your view, what exactly does the movement stand for?

PH and Dan,

Sadly, you'll wake up someday and look outside and wonder "What happened to America?"

You don't know or understand your own history or that of the world and the ramifications they have on us today or tomorrow.

Stop watching FOX, read a book writtejn by somebody other than Glen Beck or Rush Limbaugh, and get a clue before it's too late for you.

Please. You embarrass yourself. I have a fine understanding of American history and I can assure you that the Boston Tea Party was fighting against tea import taxes that were arbitrarily levied by the British Government. They didn't want to be taxed to consume it and they didn't want to be taxed to sell it, without representation. Please show me evidence that disputes that fact.

Please also show me evidence that says the Boston Tea Party was fighting for pure democracy and/or socialism.

Obviously, you can't disprove what I said because if you could you wouldn't resort to "go back to watching Fox," which is probably the most tired OWS response on these boards. And, for the record, I don't watch Fox at all. Can't stand it. I read MSNBC, CNN, NYTimes, WSJ, The Financial Times and the BBC. I'm also an independent.

As far as books and resources go, might I suggest you review all of the literature recommended for the Advanced Placement U.S. History courses (which I aced by the time I was a junior in high school) and, of course, the Federalist Papers.

skip Nicholson, Oklahoma City

Look back at my comments, I was being sarcastic.

Socialist ideals, although maybe not termed socialism, have been around since the dawn of man. Do you think these principles are new? But, you are right. The term socialism was not used until later. However, terminology aside, the ORIGINAL tea partiers were not fighting for a re-distribution of wealth by any means.

Some words our forefathers said: ‘Whoever would overthrow the liberty of a nation must begin by subduing the freeness of speech’. Benjamin Franklin

“When people talk of the freedom of writing, speaking or thinking I cannot choose but laugh. No such thing ever existed. No such thing now exists; but I hope it will exist. But it must be hundreds of years after you and I shall write and speak no more” John Adams

“Without freedom of thought there can be no such thing as wisdom and no such thing as public liberty without freedom of speech” Benjamin Franklin, 1722

The propagandist's purpose is to make one set of people forget that certain other sets of people are human. - Aldous Huxley

If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking. - Gen. George Patton

The right to think is the beginning of freedom, and speech must be protected from the government because speech is the beginning of thought. - Justice Anthony Kennedy, majority opinion Ashcroft v. Free Speech Coalition, April 16, 2002.

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be ... The People cannot be safe without information. When the press is free, and every man is able to read, all is safe” Thomas Jefferson

“I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man” Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800

“You see these dictators up on their pedestals, surrounded by the bayonets of their soldiers and the truncheons of their police. They're afraid of words and thought. ... They make frantic efforts to bar our thoughts and words. ... A state of society where men may not speak their mind -- where children denounce their parents to the police -- where a businessman or small shopkeeper ruins his competitor by telling tales about his private opinion. Such a state of society cannot long endure if it is continually in contact with the healthy outside world” Winston Churchill, explaining why Nazism is the enemy of Democracy in a BBC radio address - 10/16/1938

and others: “Restriction of free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions. It is the one un-American act that could most easily defeat us” Justice William O. Douglas

“And you have the right to free speech, as long as you're not dumb enough to actually try it...” The Clash, "Know Your Rights"

“In revealing the workings of government that led to the Vietnam War, the newspapers nobly did precisely that which the Founders hoped and trusted they would do” Hugo L Black, Associate Justice, US Supreme Court - Concurring opinion in 6-3 ruling that upheld the press’s right to publish the Pentagon Papers, 30 Jun 71 (We don't have this anymore, a free press that prints the news instead we now have a press that only prints what it is told to print. Only tells the news in the "proper" slant as it is told to tell it.)

As I would not be a slave, so I would not be a master. This expresses my idea of democracy. Whatever differs from this, to the extent of the difference, is no democracy. - The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume II, (August 1, 1858), p. 532.

He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent which will reach to himself. Thomas Paine (1737-1809), Dissertation on First Principles of Government, 1795

No constitution, no court, no law can save liberty when it dies in the hearts and minds of men. John Perkins

Hopefully this helps some to understand.

How is freedom of speech being violated here? Because people got kicked out of a public park?

The OWS movement is free to publish anything they want and they are free to say anything they want. They are free to get the right permits, post signs, recruit over the internet, find candidates, arrange speaking tours, book venues for rallies and so on and so forth.

Freedom of speech is very alive and well in this country - as we saw when the courts ruled in favor of the Westboro Baptist Church when they were protesting the funerals of gay soldiers.

Can someone here tell me why "human waste" was being stored at the LA protest ? I cannot think of one normal or sane reason to do this...except for the possibility that the collected urine and feces were to be used as weapons against police officers.

What kind of human being offers to do his or her 'business' into a jar or bag, so that it could be later directed at another human being ?

Sorry '99%' ...but you don't represent me on any level.

Ask yourself this: If the Constitution is so "outdated", so "out of touch with the present times" then why are they working so hard to destroy it?

This is not about party, or any other political dogma tossed at us. The Constitution requires the three branches of our government, the Military, all Law Enforcement, all Heads of the States, all federal employees are required to take an Oath to support and defend the Constitution and not an individual leader, ruler, office, or entity as our protection.

So that if they do not keep that Oath until they leave office/position they currently occupy they no longer can legally stay in that office/position they currently occupy. They make themselves:

Domestic enemies pursue legislation, programs against the powers of the US Constitution. They work on destroying and weakening the Rights of the People guaranteed by the Constitution. Plus they create laws, amendments, etc that goes against the restraint on the three branches of our government by the Constitution.

Then ask yourself this: If there were never intended to be action to defend the US Constitution from those who are domestically attempting to destroy its power and authority, why would each Oath require it of those taking the Oaths?

It is about OUR way of life that has been eroded by the "representatives" within our government. They are NOT representing America, Americans, or even the US Constitution.

How can I say this, let me point out the ways: Patriot Act, nice name to an illegal destruction of our freedoms, our way of life - but it is the tool of dictators everywhere else on this planet and now it is here.

Pre Crime - is another way to stop those in our country from doing what they are legally allowed to do by OUR US Constitution. Again, put into place to destroy our country, our freedoms, our way of life, OUR Constitution which is OUR protection from "our own" government.

Prolonged Detention - Arrest without cause, warrants, or reason other then some dictator in a higher position then you wants you removed. It can be because that dictator wants your job, your house, your wife, your husband, or doesn't like what you say, how you look, how you dress - doesn't matter why, what matters is it is an act against our US Constitution, our freedoms.

Operation Gunrunner (Fast and Furious) - Obama/Holder, they lied about it. He fought to fund it in 2009, lost on his first try, a month later got Holder and the rest his funding to sell weapons to gunrunners for a foreign nation. Those weapons were used on American soil to hurt and kill US Citizens. That is a traitorous act against America and Americans.

The Federal Reserve, put into place directly going against the US Constitution, which means those who put it there are Domestic Enemies of the USA.

Going against: Amendment I - Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. "Make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble means just that NO LAW under our Constitution where it is listing our protections FROM "our" government.

What we are fighting for here is are we going to stay under the US Constitution, with written guaranteed rights protecting us from things "our" government can do to us. Or are we going to let America, the land of the Free die to become another country in this world already full of countries ran by governments with citizens who have NO WRITTEN RIGHTS TO PROTECT THEM FROM THEIR GOVERNMENT.

POTUS Obama stated “the Constitution is a document of negative liberties.” How is he looking at the Constitution in order to have that opinion? The Bill of Rights is not a list of negative liberties to each of us, but a list of written restrictions upon the federal government. The Bill of Rights do not restrict US citizens, they limit what the politicians and bureaucrats can do to or against us. In order to view the Bill of Rights as “negative liberties”, Obama and his administration would have to be seeing them from how they stop what they can do to the people.

But it is not the words that stop him/them, the old Bush regime, etc; it is the words that ALLOW US to stop them to protect OUR nation, our freedoms, our written guaranteed Rights protecting us from "our" government.

"How is freedom of speech being violated here? Because people got kicked out of a public park?"

As long as it is public land, owned by the citizens of the US (supposedly), they cannot be prohibited by our government to use it any day, night or day, for protest against the actions of our government.

But, they (protesters) are also not allowed to destroy it, must take reasonable care of it. It is reasonable to have portapotty's placed there to assist.

But the government cannot tell us when or where (as long as it is public property) we can protest it. They cannot designate a "free public speech area" because then they get to choose wh listens to the speeches.

Is anyone actually paying attention to what this government that is supposed to represent America, and American interest is doing? Read below and worry.

[Nor can "our" government give OUR Rights to the United Nations: "The commander of the U.S. Cyber Command said Thursday that he does not favor giving the United Nations the power to regulate the Internet.

Some regulations are needed to protect critical networks that control electrical power, banking, transportation and other key elements of society, Army Gen. Keith Alexander, who is also director of the National Security Agency, said after a speech to a security conference.

But asked whether the U.N. should have a regulation role, Gen. Alexander said: “No. I’m not for regulating, per se. I’m concerned about it, and this is a tough question. I would say, generally speaking, I’m not into that portion of regulating as you would espouse.”

Last month, Russia, China, Uzbekistan and Tajikistan submitted a resolution to the U.N. General Assembly calling for giving individual states the right to control the Internet. The resolution, submitted Sept. 14, calls for “an international code of conduct for information security.”

It requests “international deliberations within the United Nations framework on such an international code, with the aim of achieving the earliest possible consensus on international norms and rules guiding the behavior of states in the information space.”

China tightly controls the Internet through a cybersecurity police force estimated to be more than 10,000 people who monitor Internet users and websites.

Russia’s authoritarian government has taken steps in recent years to curb Internet freedoms. Uzbekistan and Tajikistan also are authoritarian regimes that seek to control Internet use.

Gen. Alexander said that, rather than seeking U.N. regulation, individual countries “first need to step up and say, ‘Look, how do we do this without regulating it?]

[The United Nations wants to pass a treaty banning and confiscating US (your) guns, all in the name of "world peace." Doing that would obliterate the Second Amendment of our Constitution, and leave law-abiding American citizens unarmed while criminals and terrorists wreak havoc!

The Second Amendment to the United States Constitution reads: "...the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed."

Doug C - From: Doug G. of San Diego says it best:
We can not allow third world representatives from the United Nations to dictate which rights Americans may or may not enjoy. The UN does not supercede, nor will they ever supercede our Constitution and GOD given rights. Our country was founded on principles that free people should have rights and choices. Guaranteed the Right to protect themselves and their families, and others if in Harms Way or a Dangerous Situation.]

Don't you think it is time to stop this now before we are forced to fight the world for OUR country, OUR Freedoms, Our way of life or become them?

tony-268769

Did it ever occur to you that some protesters wanted to dispose of it where it belonged,but the city took waste disposal and trash disposal off the table as punishment. Did you ever pee in a bottle on the thruway? No? Take a good look on the side of the road at all them yellow bottles.Especially after winter snow melt. Occupy protesters? No people like you and me.

Did you ever wonder where 100,000 people go during the Times Square New Years celebration after drinking all evening ? How about your kids loaded diaper. There's plenty of them laying in the gutter waiting to be used as weapons. Dude,they call the storage areas for waste porta-potties,or didn't that cross your mind.They were absent from the site.

It's crazy to think that 200 get arrested by countless cops for doing nothing,yet try to find a cop for a burglary or shooting and they put you on hold.

http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/42805

That fight was lost a long time ago, my friend.

Ok, Knine. What about the rights of the people who want to use the park for its intended purpose? What about the rights of the business owners in the area? What about the rights of people trying to get to work?

Don't those rights matter too? OWS had months to Occupy and they haven't accomplished anything meaningful in that time because they are taking the wrong approach and infringing on the people they claim to be fighting for.

Blaming FOX news? Wakeup!

CNN has complete coverage 24/7 of the Protesters on their Cable Network.

It's fair and balanced News now.

Do not worry.

Ernie-201266 Before you open your sew3!!r hole you all should watch this, Obama And Hillary dont practice what they preach. The first amendment being trashed http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkdridoVEwM This will probably get collapsed And I think thats wrong too!!! RON PAUL 2012

Dani Seakey and BooCoo DaBreeze

Wow must be so damn hard and lonely to be one of the intellectual few having to try to enlighten the fat, stupid, lazy unwashed peasant masses but like booboo says one day all we scum will be wiped out and the holy, pure, righteous intellectual superior elite few will rule the earth

demmie....

Are those "facts" you offered about the packaging and storage of human waste at the LA site...or just a possible motivation ???

And "no" ...I've never had to relieve myself into a bottle and would wager that most normal folks would say the same.

This 'freedom of speech' so often mentioned on this topic...is that 'freedom' supposed to include the delivery and emptying of porta-potties and dumpsters too ? Taxpayers are supposed to cover the costs of dealing with human waste and garbage created by the few people creating it ? There was a story here on MSN a couple of weeks ago about a $300,000 deposit made by OWS in a New York bank...there's the trash removal and porta-pottie money right there. Or does OWS in New York see no need to pay for the waste removal of OWS Los Angeles ?

And in the cities where these messy protests are taking place...maybe residents of those areas could get a faster police response if half the local force wasn't doing their due diligence at protest sites...heavily at 'overtime' rate and once again paid by taxpayer funds...not OWS funds.

Bruce:

Exactly, re: The College Students; have seen this time and time again.

Great Post! The truth has arrived!

RE: all the Collapsed by the Communty: MSNBC, please reconsider and Restore them---

Where is the Right to Freedom of Speech here? Most are not harmful; nor are they disobeying the NCOH.

Balanced views?

Thank you!

Maui2 - here is a prime example of those who on the one hand, blindly support OWS and scream for their "free speech," and on the other hand is suppressing the free speech of those who do not agree with OWS. Funny thing, there are more who do not support the law breaking than those who do. Maybe they need to take off the rose colored glasses and step up to reality. That's what they are really saying, "it's OK to break the law if I agree with you." But it's not OK for others to have their free speech rights because "they don't agree with me." And the opposition didn't break any laws. Is this what you really want to teach your children? Laws and rights are only for certain people and groups?

Maui & Willow...

I have the same feeling at time when I see the protesters reaction to the police trying to move them away from an area or even when they arrest them. I've seen police barricades pulled away from where the police set them up...protesters pushing back at police, swinging at them, and a few times, throwing rocks or bottles at them.

Ain't mob mentality grand ???

Would any of those protesters act the same way if they were alone. If one was sitting in a doorway blocking customers from entering a business establishment and a police officer asked them to move...would any of them push the officer or scream in the officer's face or throw something at them ? Positively not. But put them in a mob environment and they react in kind...as a member of a mob.

And you are both right about opinions being collapsed on this site...all the while reading that our "right to free speech" is the order of the day for OWS and that right should be respected...when it's their "right" to claim. So if one doesn't agreed with the opinion of the OWS protesters...one loses that same "right".

10tacle

NEWSFLASH: Anyone or any group that ... Wal Mart on Black Friday and leaves 75 shopping carts all over the store full of perishable food

What perishable food? The Video shows carts with mostly boxes off the shelf.

willowbrook tony-268769 Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. That still does not give MSNBC or anybody else the right to collapse the peoples comments. This OWS has all been a peaceful protest except for a few people, but the police have no right beating, pepper spraying, or shooting people with rubber bullets, as of now our goivertment are trashing our Amendement rights, this is one of the reasons why they are protesting, our forefathers warned us of big government and this is what should be done, We have aright to fire our gov. and start over. maby you should all watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkdridoVEwM We need to take back America!!! RON PAUL2012

Odin - free speech rights do not extend to trespassing, vandalism, and obstructing non protesters from pursing their livelihood. By allowing OWS to do these things, THEY are keeping others from THEIR rights. The police were correct to break up the groups. To disrespect the Police and the rule of law doesn't make the police wrong for using more force. The police actions were appropriate. It is their duty to enforce the rule of law. For OWS to resist or attack the Police makes OWS wrong. For that matter, most did not ignore the instructions of the police and went quietly, only a few choose to resist, and they got what they deserved. This is a non-issue.

So bottom line, Maui, Tony and I are correct, and as I stated earlier, it is those who are supporting the law breakers that are collapsing comments. Those folks are no better than OWS and not people I would be friends with in real life as I believe rules are for everyone, not to be ignored through creative interpretation of the Bill of Rights. I don't agree with their comments, but didn't flag them. I feel sorry for their ignorance and realize this type of ignorance is what has gotten our country to where it is today.

One does not have the right to break other laws under the guise of free speech. Either engage in free speech or not, but don't use free speech as an justification to commit crime.

Yeah, @!$%# the First Amendment.

The 1% will pay the price no matter what.... Don't worry about an encampment, the 99% are here to stay!

Yeah, @!$%# the First Amendment.

Please do share with the rest of us just exactly where in the First Amendment it says you're allowed to occupy public places? Have you heard of the "Bonus Army"? Wasn't allowed then, don't see why it would be now.

Give its some time your kids will occupy..

@Toasty, they've had their say. They've not been denied any of their Constitutional rights whatsoever. They can march, wave their signs, chant their slogans, etc, to their heart's content...they just can't camp in their own filth at City Hall anymore! The Bill of Rights doesn't mention anything about "occupying" places that aren't theirs! If "occupying" a park while smoking dope and wallowing in your own excrement is "freedom of expression" to you, this country's in a lot bigger trouble than I previously thought...

"Please do share with the rest of us just exactly where in the First Amendment it says you're allowed to occupy public places? "

No, they don't necessarily have that right (people can debate the meaning of Freedom of Assembly all they want), but they certainly have a right not to be beaten and pepper sprayed by police for committing a misdemeanor

Toast McGrath, do yo have any idea what the first amendment says or are you just mimicking others who hide behind the constitution when they want to break the law? The constitution does not give you the right to break the law. Period. The arguments never change either for these guys

- The first amendments lets me do it!

- The German Soldiers in WWII were law abiding citizens!

- We are the 99%!

I hear it over, and over, and over again. It's very unoriginal and it shows how little thought these guys are putting into their movement. How can you claim to be thinking for yourselves when all you do is copy what others are saying?!?

3 gold bars--AMEN. The constitution guarantees the right to peacefully ASSEMBLE--not to 'squat' on public land, thereby denying the use of that land to OTHER citizens who have JUST as much right to it as the protesters.

Backcountry, think about it for a moment. When they say a public place, that means it is for all of the public to use, you know, just like a public sidewalk. What do you think a public park is, a place for just the trees to grow in, no people allowed?

"where in the First Amendment it says you're allowed to occupy public places?'

So, if it's a public place, in your thinking, the public can't assemble there? If it is bought and paid for using the tax payers money, for the public benefit, that doesn't mean it's owned by the government for their benefit, it's owned by the people. You see, that is what people don't understand. Even the so called Federal lands belong to the people, when it is bought by the government it is paid for with the tax payers money. And the moment you stop exercising your rights as a tax payer, you may as well hang it up, because you just gave up all of the rights that make you a free person with any authority over the government. So yes, if it is a public place, the public can gather there. Remember, it's not a system where it's a government over the people, but people over the government. Stop throwing our rights in the gutter.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the "PEOPLE" peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Notice the word people capitalised . People=Public, as in the term public places, places for the people.

they certainly have a right not to be beaten and pepper sprayed by police for committing a misdemeanor

The people who typically bring this up are usually the same ones who bitch and whine when some small minority of protesters are used as an example of the entire group, much as you did here-http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/11/29/9105583-reports-police-raid-on-occupy-la-encampment-imminent?threadId=3284012&commentId=60324481#c60324481.

Yes the police have behaved poorly at times but that is the overwhelming minority of the time. If you don't want OWS summed up, or "generalized" by the acts and wants of a few then don't turn around and do the same thing anytime something negative comes from the other side. Especially considering the protesters are the antagonists whether they want to believe it or not.

Can't Stop Me,

Uhh, where have you been? The TP and OWS are as diametrically opposite as you can get. OWS wants money out of politics and corporate fingers cut off if they reach for the cookie jar. TP doesn't care about that and only wants to cut the Gov to skin and bones so that we will reach upwards of 50% unemployment.

Generalizing of course, and some predictions on outcomes if what each group wants comes to pass.

@Backcountry

Maybe a bit more then "overwhelmingly" minority:

Okland, twice

UC Davis

Chase/Bank of America/JP Morgan Incidents (arrested for trying to run the banks and close their accounts)

Unlawful removal of power generators from OWS

But yes, you have a point, the cops have at times been human in doing their jobs, some have even stood up for them.

However even one case, in America, is going to stand out. Police brutality should not be happening, period, in this country.

So, if it's a public place, in your thinking, the public can't assemble there?

No that's not my thinking at all. It's just a retarded attempt to spin my comment into something you can bitch about.

You don't know the difference between assembly and occupation? Really? That's what you're going with for your straw man? These protesters can show up at their park every single day for the rest of their lives. They can NOT, however, pitch tents and destroy that public place which, as you point out, is bought, paid and repaired, with tax payers money. Like it or not, destroying public property for your own purpose is against the law. Denying the rest of the public access to those same areas, not to mention sidewalks, bridges and ports, violates the rights of others.

Please don't make a fool of yourself by quoting the Constitution after you've shown quite clearly that you really don't have a clue what rights it protects and who exactly it is violating those rights.

"Yes the police have behaved poorly at times but that is the overwhelming minority of the time."

What evidence is there to indicate this is in any way true? The amount of police brutality and use of excessive force to break up these protests should be alarming to anyone who knows anything about authoritarian regimes. This should NOT be happening in a supposedly free and democratic country regardless of whether it is happening a minority of the time or not (and I've seen nothing to indicate these occurrences are an "overwhelming minority")

Jeff-803009 Comment collapsed by the community

About damn time....spank these smelly scumbags

Guess we know how you spend your free time.

Toasty, your argument is tired and old, the First Amendment doesn't apply. The illegal campers have worn the patience of city and police also including the 99% of the population. Time to go or be become a part of the city jail.

"The amount of police brutality and use of excessive force to break up these protests should be alarming to anyone who knows anything about authoritarian regimes."

This is one of the most ignorant comments on this thread. "Anyone who knows anything" knows that thus far the authorities have treated these whining tantrum-throwing children wtih kid gloves. The "occupy" movement is a deliberate provocation. It is the commission of an act of violence. The police have the law on their side with the authority to arrest anyone who disobeys an order to disperse or to move back from the person of the police officer. To resist arrest is a crime indendent of the cause for the arrest. One can be completely innocent of all wrongdoing EXCEPT for resisting arrest, and go to jail for resisting arrest.

To court an arrest for resisting arrest is foolhardy, will self-brand a person as an uncooperative and criminal fool.

Many of the complaints I have heard from these OWS types have a resonance with my own grievances against the banks and the government. But they have not presented the government with a petition declaring their grievances because this juvenile tantrum-throwing has nothing whatever to do with the First Amendment. It is a Marxist ploy, a standard textbook example of a marxist shoving match the purpose of which is to provoke a response from the police that they can then use as a club to beat society with as they run amok crying "police brutality!" "police brutality!" which they will then try to use as an excuse for damaging property and committing other acts of violence to further escalate the conflict.

The police know this. They have been exercising an extremity of restraint. Anyone who knows anything about the Los Angeles Police Department IN PARTICULAR knows that they are showing an uncommon level of decency and restraint.

Thus the poster quoted above is obviously not a person who knows anything about anything.

These OWS criminals are not exercising any "rights" as I said. They are committing an act of war. They will never be satisfied with achieving any stated goal; no amount of and no kind of social change will molliy them. They are trying to start a war. For every imaginary "demand" they might ever name that was met, they would invent another to replace it. This is why they have never, never, never at any time stated a specific goal. They fancy themselves getting all the mileage out of a list of demands that is possible before they have even submitted so much as one such thing. They have no other purpose than waging war, thus they see no reason to provide a reason to come to terms, thus no reason to state any particular demand. It is already quite clear that confrontation is their only goal and their only purpose.

This is an ugly, violent mob. It is nothing else. The authorities, whom I neither favor nor disfavor, have shown more restraint than has ever before been seen in history for such a continual provocation. The ugly, violent mob lurking beneath the surface of this so-called "peaceful protest" is predictable as rain after dark and moisture-swollen clouds move in.

These "protestors" are already guilty of second-degree murder, according to the laws of the State of California, should anyone die in a confrontation between the mob and the police. They have placed other human beings in mortal danger with complete disregard to the presence of that danger. See the recent San Deigo Reader article on Debt. Arson. Murder, in which it is plainly stated that placing another person in mortal danger with disregard for their safety is "malice" as defined under the law, and requires no specific hatred or dislike of the other person. Simply being unconcerned with the safety of the other person is defined as "malice."

Thus these little babies are not innocent. They are not protesting "peacefully." They are not a non-violent gathering. All of that rhetoric is false. They are a violent mob. That no one has yet been seriously hurt is to the credit of the restraint shown by the authorities, not to the credit of the violent mob that has gathered to provoke an act of violence.

Occupation, is a military term. These people have commited the same act against the government as the State of South Carolina did when it fired upon Fort Sumter. This OWS movement is a military force and it has begun to wage a war.

All their claims of "peace" and "rights" and "assembly" are false.

When people go to church to pray for the nation, the state, the city, and the civic and business leaders of these, including those with whom they disagree, they are assembling, they are doing something right, and they are doing it peacefully.

When ignorant vagrants confront the police solely to dare them to knock a chip off their impudent shoulders, they wage violent war

right out of the Marxist-Leninist textbook

and given the historically predictable outcome which is clearly evident to every mature and thinking person well in advance of the coming clash,

they are already guilty of attempted murder.

To remain entrenched and persist until the first blood is shed,

will inexorably make them guilty of accomplished murder--

the OWS crowd, at whose feet the blood will lay

on Judgement Day.

Under government propaganda, the 1st Amendment means Americans can only protest only during certain time, place and manner. You can't protest unless you obtain a permit, for example. You can't protest on public land. You can't protest on private land. You can't camp and stage a long term protest under the 1st Amend; you must go home and come back tomorrow. You can protest as long as the authority tolerates it. If one protestor breaks a law, the whole assembly must be disbursed else risk arrest.

Under government propaganda, certain Big Corporations are too big to fail and must be bailed out with taxpayer money, nearly $1trillion. But if your small business is about to go under, too bad, because America is about capitalism. Not a cent to you. All working Americans and business must pay their fair share of taxes but if you have smart tax lawyers, you are exempt. GE has revenues in the billions and paid no taxes in 2010. For you, just pay yur taxes and shut up.

Under government propaganda, all Americans are created equal. Some are just a bit more equal than others.

@John-3078515

Even if it is a "Marxist ploy" as you call it, they still have their right to protest against what they see as a system that has gradually become unfair and corrupt, which benefits solely the upper class of American society. Nowhere in the Bill of Rights does it say that people have the right to present their grievances unless their agenda is a socialist one; it would simply be a null and void document since it completely contradicts the original purpose of the amendment.

You cannot generalize that the whole Occupy movement is provoking law enforcement into violence; it would be really different if every single person in the movement were to say, "Yes, I want to confront the cops, whether it ends up in a full-fledged riot or not." Yes, I agree that there are those that do seek violence but usually it is a small percentage of every single person participating in the protest.

John3058715,

What an absolute load of horsesh/t and twisted intents you have posted. "Occupation is a military term." you say. Yet when I use many public bathrooms when I close the latch on the crapper it says 'occupied'. Well, send in the Marines! 'Occupation' has many meanings and is NOT a military term unless it is used by or about the military. Nice try propagandist, but no gold star for you.

OWS is NOT a military force. At no time have they engaged in any kind of military activity- they carry no weapons. Some have gas masks, but that is to protect themselves from police gassing. The police have become, however, a quasi-military force. Having been an Infantryman, having trained in riot/crowd control, having trained and engaged in the use of military tactics and recognition of enemy forces, I can tell you straight up that the OWS is NOT a military force even under the most twisted 'definition' of military force- like yours. They are citizens engaged in a prolonged protest of government and corporate policies intended to cause them (and the Nation) ongoing financial hardship. ALL LAWS- federal,state and local have to conform to,and not conflict with the US Constitution. State constitutions must conform to and not conflict with the US Constitution. The laws/regulations made about the hours of use for the park are conflicting with these Citizen's 1st Amendment Rights to peaceable assembly and petition for redress of grievances. Any damage to the park will be repaired at their own- the taxpayer's expense or more likely by the protesters own voluntary work. It has never been their intention to destroy public property- just put it to public use. Their reasons for remaining and 'occupying' areas such as this instead of reorganizing each day is simple. One day they'll come to continue their protest and they'll be denied access to ANY public property near the intended targets of their protests by militarized police or possibly even the military. It has been the police who have been doing the confrontations and endangering people- not the protesters.

Things are relatively peaceful except when the police get itchy to break heads because some protesters won't be denied their Constitutional rights and won't kowtow to their bullying and unlawful orders. Let the police go ahead and break up this peaceful protest and attempt at redress of grievances, and the next time the protesters will come PREPARED to resist the assault on them, this time exercising their 2nd Amendment Rights too. The American Revolution followed that pattern as did the protests of the 1960s and 1970s. Also, following the pattern of the anti-Vietnam War protests, as this cause grows there will be a larger proportion of combat veterans engaged in the protests. They will be even more difficult to oppress and suppress- plus they'll teach others. That is why the protesters gained their goals in the 60s and 70s.

You also claim that the protesters have not presented any formal written petition to the government and this negates their coverage under the 1st Amendment. WRONG!!!! They don't need to present the government a single printed/written/scribbled word on paper! The GOAL is to ensure that the elected representatives/senators/public officials and those that are on the government payroll DO THEIR DUTY & JOBS TOWARDS THE CITIZENS & PROTECT THEIR INTERESTS THROUGH THEIR OFFICES, PERIOD. They were elected to take care of the lawmaking and to be guardians of the public's interests as it is done. Protesters need do no more than that- especially when they see their interests being disregarded, sold out, and/or abandoned while said electees dither about with thumbs up their a$$es or courting campaign contributors for large sums. You demand that the protesters do the job for which people were provided by election, appointment and simple hiring. An absolutely unreasonable demand on your part and you SHOULD know that.

John, I don't know where you learned your twisted and perverted view of what it means to be an American Citizen or to exercise one's Constitutional Rights and Responsibilities- but dictators would absolutely love your version of being an American and allowing the government to call all of the shots while the citizens just obeyed the "public servants" instead of commanding them. If you're a voter you should know better.

Merlin,

Excellent post ... succinct & lucid. Kudos.

The "occupy" movement is a deliberate provocation.

True.

It is the commission of an act of violence.

Incorrect. It is the commission of an act of nonviolence, made necessary because all of one political party and some members of the other are in the back pockets of the 1%, and are imposing a government of the 99% by the rich, for the rich, intentionally impoverishing the rest of the population

Merlin....Excellent post! I was so disappointed after reading John's Post. John likes to twist the meaning of words around and or lie. The protestors ARE peaceful. They are not committing an act of WAR they are excercising their constitutional amendement rights. They stand for the rights of all of the people of America...even those that do not understand this or do not agree with their protest. Power to the People!

@Merlin-420455

...some protesters won't be denied their Constitutional rights...

God I am so sick of hearing you guys yammer on and on about the Constitution. What a load of BS. The Consititutuion allows you to shut down a port? The Constitution allows you to prevent other people from going to work? The Constitution allows you to set up camp in a public place? What a bunch of fckuing idiots. You piss all over the constitution and the rights of others but then you cry and whine about your own "Constitutional rights" even though you clearly have no clue what they are. Both sad and pathetic at the same time.

Conservatives are always talking about their love for the Constitution. Once in a while they tell us what they really think;

God I am so sick of hearing you guys yammer on and on about the Constitution.

Much like the flag, you see, the Constitution isn't of any real importance to Conservatives, other than as a prop to make them seem serious, thoughtful, and patriotic.

Backcountry stated: "No that's not my thinking at all. It's just a retarded attempt to spin my comment into something you can bitch about. You don't know the difference between assembly and occupation?"

So, if a group of people "assemble at a specific location", are they not "occupying that specific location" during the time they are there "during that assembly"? Two people meeting at a specific point can be called an assembly, and during the time they are there, they occupy that specific point. And by the way, explaining a point is not "bitching" as you like to call it. Also, watch what you label as being retarded, some of the things you state are highly questionable themselves. I can also see, that asking you to think about something for a moment like I did, was futile, and was beyond your capability of doing.

"Like it or not, destroying public property for your own purpose is against the law."

Ok, I may have missed something here. Show me proof that things were destroyed, and proof that this was their "purpose", to destroy these things?

"Denying the rest of the public access to those same areas, not to mention sidewalks, bridges and ports, violates the rights of others."

How did those people, by being there, stop other people from being there? Did they physically touch them and force any of those other people away? If another person is not physically putting their hands on you to stop you, how is that violating your rights?

Don't try making the word occupy out as being something bad or dirty like you are trying to do, it is far from it. Everyone occupies space at every moment of their lives, you want to throw everyone in jail? No, you want to use that term, because you can twist it(spin it) and make it out to be something dirty, all because you don't like what those people are doing. You don't like what they are doing, tough, learn to deal with the things you don't like.

I would comment on the other things you stated in that post, but from what I see of it, it's all clap trap rhetoric. I tried to be nice in my first responce to you, but no, you have to start using the word retarded, and that I was spinning your words, so in my opinion, the gloves are now off. Want to go another round Backcountry?

"Daddy, why did you stay when the policeman asked you to leave?"

I don't think this is going to turn out well for anyone. It's going to be a bad, bad day for the United States of America. We'll have a new debate with new divisions, and a time for choosing sides.

Laura

Any parent who doesn't get their children out before then is unfit. It sounds like you want to be evicted just so you can exploit the children, by making them watch, and then tomorrow you will parade them out and say, look what the police did in front of our children. That could be child abuse by exposing them to potential danger and harm.

If you're a parent and have your kids at any Occupy Wall Street rally, you are intentionally subjecting them to a situation they do not understand and more importantly, you're putting them in danger.

You're putting them in harms way to get what you want and you're using them as a human shield in the process. You deserve to have them taken away.

Because of your SELFISHNESS, you somehow think it's your "right" to Occupy any space you want, regardless of the law, you think it's your "right" to agitating the police by throwing objects at them and when they respond with non-lethal force you invoke "Constitutional Rights" and decry they're the "bad people."

What are you teaching your children?? Be afraid of the police?? That you can do whatever you want, whenever you want, that the law doesn't apply to you and when the police come to arrest you act out in violence??

Yeah, real American Patriots you OWS people are.

Bunch of friggin losers.

So instead let's let them grow up in poverty. You have no right to complain about these people exposing their kids to a certain situation when they're the ones with the cajones to stand up for their childrens' futures. 20 years from now those kids are going to know mommy got blackjacked TRYING to give them a chance for a future where social mobility was more than a pipe dream. Collapse my comment, I don't care, you cowards disgust me...

Totally agree with you. Bringing children into this??? Totally irresponsible...

People want justice. That's all they want. Justice from the big banks who got bailed out by the American people; the same group of the richest of the rich people who benefitted the most when Wall Street got rescued too. You got paid. We got screwed.

The American people want justice. And this is not going to go away until there is justice.

And now it only stands to get worse if more injustice is applied to Americans exercising their constitutional rights. Bringing police in in riot gear is inciting violence.

I'm saying this ahead of time: LAPD knows what they're about to do, and the reason they're doing it. But you'd better know that not even a stacked Supreme Court can make people stay at home. Because most of the 99%, those who don't make a million dollars a year, know their constitutional rights; and they know injustice. The backlash for injustice is being witnessed in Ohio and Wisconsin; in Oakland; at UC Davis.

Now LAPD is not known to tread lightly. But you'd better not think that the American people don't know the reputation of the LAPD for inciting violence. If it isn't kept peaceful, people will blame LAPD, and any positive reputation you had will be gone forever. Put it this way: if corporations are people, then LAPD could be considered a person then too, right? Well if things turn ugly, LAPD will be the OJ Simpson of law enforcement forever. OJ used to look real good in uniform too.

Tread lightly, officers. The world is watching, and you can never get it back if you screw up. If you're looking to be responsible for starting a civil war, know that violence is the surest way forward.

P e a c e .

Hey Robert,

You disgust me. Because you know if anything happens to any of those children. They will sue whomever they can, and to the best of their ability.

Understand, the OWS movement is all about "I don't way to pay my student loans back" and my free entitlements are going away. Both have to understand the free ride is over.

Patty, you are an ignorant and narrow-minded individual. Your generalization of the movement's participants is pathetic. They are voicing their displeasure over legitimate societal and economic injustices in your country. These are real problems that affect millions of Americans, not just the ones who have taken it upon themselves to occupy parks as a means of getting their message out there. There is much more to this than wanting more free handouts. People like you trivialized the anti-war movement when it was in a similar state, but as long as there are real issues at the centre of these protests they will not be pepper sprayed away. If nothing is done to fix the underlying problems in America the protests will grow to encompass what is left of the middle class and it will be hard to justify brutalizing middle class American families. Then Washington will be forced to listen whether you like it or not

You might want to check out what OWS is doing in Olympia WA. They are protesting the legislature going into special session to attempt to balance the 1.5 billion shortfall in the state budget primarily by cuts to the budget.

Notice the 99% signs, the OWS Tacoma is here sign and the NO MORE CUTS Signs?

the estimate was around 2,000 showed up monday. They really don't want their particular entitlement taken away. And they are for a .5% sales tax increase on some of the highest taxes in the nation so they can keep their entitlements?

Right it's all about the 1%

www.theolympian.com/2011/11/29/1894473/protests-flood-capitol.html#storylink=mirelated

If you can't peacefully assemble in a public park, where exactly did our founding fathers intend for us to redress grievances to our government? THe argument that you don't have the right to occupy a public park is assanine, people have to assemble somewhere and if it isn't on public property then where? If anything happens to the kids because LAPD comes in with pepper spray blazing, then they need to be sued, they will have brought it upon themselves.

As far as "what their all about": If you truly believe that that is all they want then you are VERY selective in your news reading... Or don't you think that their growing frustration with the ever widening disparity in income between the power elite and everyone else is warranted? What about the corruption of government that is only getting worse? Maybe the bailout of the "too big to fail" banks with the multimillion dollar bonuses of CEOs while the common taxpayer struggles to keep his lights turned on and his children fed? Please explain to me where you get the notion that it's a bunch of spoiled college kids who just want to get out of paying back their student loans, because I genuinely have no idea where that wide-spread on the internet idea came from.

Rick, seriously. It's a comment, not a 5 paragraph essay. Although there are some who will waste their time reading all of that, most won't.

Robert, a society that feels its OK to exploit children is definitely on the wrong path.

However, kudos to you all for not going to the OWS defaults:

- My first amendment rights say I can do whatever I want!!

- The Germans in WWII were law abiding citizens!

- Were the 99%!, seriously we are! No I mean it, we're 99%!

Landoran

If you're a parent and have your kids at any Occupy Wall Street rally, you are intentionally subjecting them to a situation they do not understand and more importantly, you're putting them in danger.

So are you saying that those children - American citizens - should not be protected because their parents may have broken the law? The only danger will come from LAPD. Let's not get caught on camera pepper spraying children in the face. Does your side ever watch anything except for Fox News? Because there is a whole big world out here.

Hope none of the women Protesters are not pregnant; getting pepper-sprayed by the Cops!

One of the Protesters has lawyas, suing for her miscarriage, because she was punched in the stomach?, taken to jail, and then lost her 3-month old (fetus) baby.

They are seeing $$$$$$$$ signs for this inconvience--The Occupiers are not that dumb. They know about Friviolous Lawsuits-----just wait.

John Doe-2241225

Rick, seriously. It's a comment, not a 5 paragraph essay. Although there are some who will waste their time reading all of that, most won't.

Wow John Doe, your comment is so short.

Its readable. That's what counts.

rebuttal53

Anyone who takes children into this mess, should be arrested for criminal abuse and have them taken from their custody

So if you are a parent and you want to protest you better hire a baby sitter.... Notice how the Mayor 'heard' their were children there? Couldn't he confirm that before hand? It's easy to make up excuses to go in....

btw rebuttal53, opinions like yours scare the living daylights out of me.... Do you keep copies of the constitution around to wipe up your spills?

I keep looking for the constitutional amendment that says you have the right to tell elected city officials and police officers to F-off while you continue to defy the law, but I can't find it. Please Ray in Jax, tell me where in the constitution this right is guaranteed?

1: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Bill of Rights (Patch 1.5)

1: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances by defecating on police cars, shouting obscenities at police officers, and defying elected public officials.

my apologies Ray, I never got the update.

"20 years from now those kids are going to know mommy got blackjacked TRYING to give them a chance for a future where social mobility was more than a pipe dream. Collapse my comment, I don't care, you cowards disgust me..."

No, Robert, 20 years from now we will all be long past dead and having been brought before the Throne of Judgment to answer for ourselves

because of the escalating violence that mindless people are fueling here--all will be, I say, including those children.

And the huge number of people standing before the Great White Throne who will by then not merely "collapse" petty comments, but will STOP FOOLISH WORDS ALTOGETHER, having nothing but loathing and contempt for those SPIRITUAL COWARDS who thoughtlessly and selfishly provoked and escalated the predictably bloody conflict that cost everyone his property, her friends, their families and our lives, and we who despise this rabble will rejoice to have the authority on THAT DAY to trample on their ashes--those who started this final push to Armageddon with not the shallowest second thought for the WORLDWIDE BLOODSHED that they were setting in motion.

I use to take my young son to Gulf War protests - it actually had a calming affect on the protesters. They would smile at us as we tossed the Nerf football around and talked with people we would never talk to usually. The only threats came from the out side agitators - you know - like people who come to liberal forums just to cause trouble.

So let me get this straight A child can't protest for their own future? When did we only have constitutional RIGHTS at a certain age. If these kids are old enough to understand to see history then you take them, when the cops move in you get them out for their saftey but they have a right to protest just like everyone else because in ten years time most of these KIDS will be voting adults. TEN years the last ten years of my life have seen numerous wars and multiple recessions. Wish I would have spoke up then.

john doe if that's the case than why does your side(gop-teabag hypocrites} cant handle the fact we have an African American President?....Isn't he an elected official that your side has defy? And rise up against?.....Typical tea-bag hypocrite,who's morals & values suddenly appear....then disappear when the tea-retards don't get their way when this President was elected by the widest margin of voters ever in the history of this great country of ours......WAIT..WAIT! FOR IT.....Founded on tyrannical ideas of rising up & against their own country.....ENGLAND!......and there had to be a john doe of yester-year sayin the same low-info. garbage back in mother land England against those rising up BACK THEN!!.....YOU MUST BE RELATED TO THAT PERSON OF NATIVE ENGLAND before America was a country founded on the same princIples of ows here in the now & WHO WAS SPEWING YOU DON'T HAVE A RIGHT ,YOU DON'T HAVE A RIGHT.......YES ! THEY DO HAVE A RIGHT!...........LONG LIVE OWS!!.........................Obama/Biden 2012

I was with you TBN right up until your Obama plug.

You understand everything except GOP=DEM. Take a trip to China and check out the billboards there. They praise our president....

Mark-1219747

It's true that in order to become president of the US, one must serve the interests of those with money. Therefore all presidents in our life time have done so.

The only way to stop the cronyism is to have the federal government pay for the elections while banning "contributions".

The least corrupt governments on earth like New Zealand pay their politicians and public officials well and ban "contributions".

I've been to China, never saw any public display of any thing American. They are too busy making the things that make the world run.

Mark

So?

robertI - I am sure that our founding fathers had little grasp on how America would turm out in 200 yrs. Our constitution provided common sense rights for us all. Unfortunately for us today, many of us have interpreted those rights or changed there original intent over time. I won't begrudge OWS their right to protest peacefully and with a clear message. However, when they adversely impact their fellow citizens rights as well that is another thing.

Think about it, one of our constitutions goals is to provide a gonernment to look after the "general welfare" of its citizens. I am thinking that cities made the mistake of allowing tents to be pitched in the first place, or at the very least not being clear about the rules that must be followed when permits were issued.

As for growing up in poverty, isn't it the responsibility of the parents to encourage their kids to be the best they can be? To know that following certain paths have consequences? Or that government can't guarentee a prosperous or happy life? That certain occupations are not an abundant provider of jobs?

As for income disparity, so what? Government can't legislate parity except through tax reforms and even then there will be those who want to scam the system across all income levels. Think burglaries, muggings, etc. I don't agree with corporate policies on golden parachutes or with large salaries for top management who can't create a positive return for their investors (whether the hands on employees or $$$ investors). IE performers and the niche workers get the rewards based on the companies skill sets required as well as what the labor markets have available.

Well said American.

That was indeed well said, American. I commend you for the most logical anti-OWS argument I have seen yet. It helps me to build a deeper understanding of the "other side of the coin." While it's true that our founding fathers couldn't have known how we would turn out 200 years ago, I think the basic principle of people protesting against the government has not been at all distorted. As far as infringing on other people's rights, it's a public park. If 20 people have to forego their morning jog so 500 people can protest, I don't see why that's a big deal. I'm sure a few people were late to work when Dr. King marched on Washington. Furthermore, people also have a right not to be brutalized by the police (UC Davis or Oakland for starters). I think infringements on the rights of others have been made by both sides. It is my humble opinion that if the government is to err, it should be on the side of the citizens who have a legitimate concern. If it errs the other way, it is self defeating in its efforts to provide for the general welfare of the people.

As for growing up in poverty, it is the parents responsibility to teach children the value of hard work, but hard work is no longer the key to social mobility. I think this argument falls into the government legislating parity. Obviously you are correct on that point too. The government cannot legislate parity. It can, however, stop legislating DISparity. The supreme court ruling allowing corporations to "buy" politicians needs to be overturned. The "too big to fail" mentality fueling the bailouts was, in hindsight, probably a mistake. The fraud that was a major contributing factor to the 2008 housing market crash didn't result in one single arrest, even though so many people lost their life savings and their homes.

These people are fed up, and rightfully so. Rather than the government seeking a way to address their concerns, they are content to have them arrested. This frightens me.

Hey, well said.

It is possible for businesses and consumers/workers to have economic relationships based on association rather than exploitation.

If there were never intended to be action to defend the Constitution, our country, our way of life from those who are domestically attempting to destroy its power and authority, why would each Oath require it of those taking the Oaths?

Egilman and Patty; Patty, you're totally foolish, because you did NOT bother to find out what OWs are fighting for and made a stupid comment.

What they are marching for is:

Campaign finance reform so that corporations could not buy OUR politicians;

Repeal of the Citizens United rule that designates corporations as 'people';

End to wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, and no further involvement in foreign countries until the needs of Americans have been addressed;

Stop spending American taxpayer money on foreign countries, and instead use that money to help America to repair our failing infrastructure, build schools so our children can get a decent education, take care of our seniors who have to choose between food and medicine;

Bring down the cost of health care so that more Americans can afford it;

Close tax loopholes for all, from the top to the bottom;

Make college education more affordable so that more middle class Americans have a chance to improve themselves.

(the rest of the list is here in todays comments, look for it, it is easier then researching it for yourself)

Egilman, "You might want to check out what OWS is doing in Olympia WA. They are protesting the legislature going into special session to attempt to balance the 1.5 billion shortfall in the state budget primarily by cuts to the budget."

That is because that is what the legislature is there for today.

But why not cut Foreign aid ($2.5 Trillion to just 25 of the 150 foreign nations we give OUR money to) instead of cutting off American citizens? And yes, I do know that for a fact, I spent 6 months researching it, and they do not list all foreign aid under foreign aid, they insert it in other stuff, they hide it .. openness is not here at all. That is JUST 25 foreign nations out of the 150 foreign nations we give OUR money to. Most of those foreign nations hate us, work against us, even use that money to buy arms, fund terrorist activity against us, with the knowledge of this administration.

Or why not cut out the $1 Trillion a year in corporate welfare that goes mostly to mega corporations based outside the USA (few, like WalMart is the only I have found is based here), plus make Billions a year in profits. So they do NOT Need corporate welfare. Yet, we do not hear that Foreign aid or corporate welfare will be cut.

Or cut out Homeland Security, the third largest expense in our nation today. Third to even our Defense, which is massive.

NO, this administration as much as the previous administration, wants to make American citizens hurt, poor, too worried about food and housing then about what "our" government is doing.

Domestic enemies pursue legislation, programs against the powers of the US Constitution. They work on destroying and weakening the Rights of the People guaranteed by the Constitution. Plus they create laws, amendments, etc that goes against the restraint on the three branches of our government by the Constitution.

The Founding Fathers recognized that a citizen can become a domestic enemy of our country. They understood the possibility of a political leader, a soldier, an officer in the military, or even the President could become an enemy of the Constitution.

Our country, our Constitution has been under assault by domestic enemies for decades. The progression of the attacks has escalated over time to include a total disregard of the Constitution. Currently we have elected officials who have taken the required Oath and still try to dismantle the protections the Constitution provides to the People. We have those in Congress who have stretched the meaning of certain phrases of the US Constitution so that they no longer resemble the meaning of the original written word.

POTUS Obama stated “the Constitution is a document of negative liberties.” How is he looking at the Constitution in order to have that opinion? The Bill of Rights is not a list of negative liberties to each of us, but a list of written restrictions upon the federal government. The Bill of Rights do not restrict US citizens, they limit what the politicians and bureaucrats can do to or against us. In order to view the Bill of Rights as “negative liberties”, Obama and his administration would have to be seeing them from how they stop what they can do to the people.

If there were never intended to be action to defend the Constitution, our country, our way of life from those who are domestically attempting to destroy its power and authority, why would each Oath require it of those taking the Oaths?

the core organizers of ows are anarchist who's goal is to destroy capitalism and democracy and the majority of the "99%" protestors are their useful idiots

sick...

I agree. I take it you've read a recent Van Jones interview. And yes...many pawns without a clue on the front lines.

the core organizers of ows are anarchist who's goal is to destroy capitalism and democracy and the majority of the "99%" protestors are their useful idiots

For me not to consider that a mindless and silly argument you would have to provide some sort of proof, which I am certain you cannot.

cul...

Last week or week before...'Newsweek' or 'Time', I forget which...quite large interview with Van Jones about his involvement & plans for the OWS people. 'sickandtired's' comment isn't silly at all.

Oh I see, Van Jones is out to destroy capitalism and democracy...that explains everything. Are you people for real?

Sure do....I spent 6 years defending it (it's not just a JOB, its an ADVENTURE)

This is probably the most sacred of all american rights and democracy. Glad to see Jeff supports the constitution

BS. The Constitution doesn't give you the right to occupy public places. Please don't start yammering about the Constitution if you don't know jack shti about it.

actually anything that was not written and said that it was against the law in the constitution is "assumed to be legal" plus the constituition says you can gather peacefully and i havnt seen any violence... yet haha it still is la

source: 8th grade textbook and internet (say whaaaaattt)

Berek-2161085

actually anything that was not written and said that it was against the law in the constitution is "assumed to be legal"

You got it wrong.....

The constitution states that what is not expressly stated as a power of the federal government or as a limitation of the federal government, is exclusively reserved for the states to determine.

It doesn't say anything is legal or illegal, it simply enumerates the powers and rights of the federal vs the states vs the individual.

It is up to the citizens thru their elected officials to determine what is legal and illegal.

Go back to school, you need a tune up.

The constitution does not give you the right to break the law, stir up violence, revolt against the government, the police, or standing public officials. Period. Seek to further your cause in a legal manner, please.

Berek-2161085

Oh excuse me!

source: 8th grade textbook and internet (say whaaaaattt)

Please name the book (with an isbn# please) And post the links to where it says this on the internet!

Source: "the internet".... really, can you be any less general in your citation?

Jeff-803009

Sure do....I spent 6 years defending it

You like to say that a lot. I guess you just don't feel thanked enough yet. Maybe you never will.

The constitution does not give you the right to break the law, stir up violence, revolt against the government, the police, or standing public officials. Period. Seek to further your cause in a legal manner, please.

The right wing is always quick to remind us of 2nd amendment solutions to political problems. Or did you forget what was coming out of the talk radio bullhorn the past 3 years?

The First Amendment does give people the right to peacefully protest. The police are declaring it an unlawful assembly when it is not (in order to be an unlawful assembly the protest must have begun with an unlawful purpose). These protesters are within their constitutional rights, if any members of the protests are doing anything illegal then they should be arrested, but the police should not be arresting those who are within their rights. Many judges across the nation have thrown out citations for this reason.

"The constitution does not give you the right to break the law, stir up violence, revolt against the government, the police, or standing public officials. Period. Seek to further your cause in a legal manner, please."

Actually it does give us the Right to protect our US Constitution, even requires that action of the three branches of our government, of the Military, of all Law Enforcement, of all Heads of the States, and of all federal employees by requiring them to take an Oath to support and defend the Constitution and not an individual leader, ruler, office, or entity.

The three branches of our government, the Military, all Law Enforcement, all Heads of the States take the required Oath to support and defend the Constitution to get into the Office or Position they want. If they refuse to take the Oath they cannot have that office or position (doesn't matter if a POTUS/etc has every single vote; no Oath, no office of the President/etc)

Then they must keep that Oath until they leave office or position they currently occupy to be able to stay in that position.

If they do not keep that Oath, they make themselves Domestic Enemies of the USA and they no longer meet the legal requirements for them to stay in that position or office and must be replaced.

Domestic enemies pursue legislation, programs against the powers of the US Constitution. They work on destroying and weakening the Rights of the People guaranteed by the Constitution. Plus they create laws, amendments, etc that goes against the restraint on the three branches of our government by the Constitution

With domestic enemies “attacking” the US Constitution within the highest levels of our government, what can we do? What can the sworn defenders (Military and Law Enforcement) do? At what point is non-political action necessary? If there were never intended to be action to defend the Constitution from those who are domestically attempting to destroy its power and authority, why would each Oath require it of those taking the Oaths?

The Oath is their guarantee to us that they will not take away our rights or subjugate our country. Unfortunately not only is that happening, but they are trying to give certain Rights of ours (Free Speech and Weapons) to the United Nations which is so UN American, but very dictatorship and illegal of them to do.

Our government is trying to destroy America, our Military is too busy fighting UN wars to protect our Home from Domestic Enemies, and Law Enforcement are too busy taking orders ad feeling separated from the general populace (which they are by the very job they do), so the defense of our Country, Our Constitutional way of life is now up to the People.

It is the People who benefit from the Constitution the most because it gives us written protections from our government. It is time to fire those within this administration, and prosecute those in this administration, the previous two or three administrations, and bring back the Constitution of the united States as it was before Domestic Enemies throughout the history of our nation took away form it.

Get rid of the TSA, Homeland Security because anyone who has studied history knows they are similar, very similar to the SS which was also put into place to "protect the people" from outside threats when the threat was internal.

Knine

To defend the Constitution is simple, GET INVOLVED!

The Forefathers wrote in in the specific manner they did to quelch the forces of repression for ALL TIME!

It insures that the citizens have a voice that cannot be overturned, the weapon they gave us to enforce our will is the VOTE!

Trust me when those in power order the military or police forces to start opressing the citizen, there are millions of both Republicans AND Democrats that will join the Libertarians in armed defense of our freedom.

WE are not anyway near that point yet, right now the most potent weapon we have IS the vote, Use it or lose it.

Vote Ron Paul 2012 the last honest man.

Knine, that was such a beautiful speech I almost hate to correct you. The government is 3 branches, but it Judicial, Executive, and Legistlative. The other problem I have with your speech is it is a bit idealistic in that it assumes everyone taking an oath stands by that oath without reguard to their personal selves and this is a lost moral ideal within our government.

im still in 8th grade you go back to school -_-

yeah feel bad about insulting an 8th grader who's still in the process of learning all the amendments

Berek-2161085

If you are truly an 8th grader, then you have received a very real object lesson in life, most adults do not suffer foolishness.

You would probably find that the responses would have been a lot more muted and instructive, rather than as critical as they were, if you had revealed your self as young and inexperienced as you now claim to be.

Since you are capable of understanding the issue enough to give an on point response (as inaccurate as it is) you should be mature enough to accept a bit of mild criticism.

And yes, in the adult world what you received is MILD criticism.

Actually Berek, what you've learned is that many on Internet will respond to things that disagree with their preconceived notions with ad hominem attacks instead of reasoned argument and rebuttal.

If you have sources put them up with quotes and links. You're still likely to be personally attacked for daring to disagree with someone who believes otherwise, but your statements will stand on their own and you can be proud of them. Don't be intimidated, and notice that Egilman did NOT provide any back up for his beliefs even though he demands that from you.

What parent in their right mind would expose their child to this?

Johnny: You rant in front of your kids how much you hate our POTUS, is that different?

Try I don't rant in front of my children about anything, it's more like they rant in front of me about what their taught is school, 12 and 17.

children are american citizens too and it's very good to teach them since they are little how to defend the constitution,i hope those kids are not just homeless kids,that would be really sad,all kids should have a warm place to live and a family.

JohnnyOnTheSpot-3794903

Try I don't rant in front of my children about anything, it's more like they rant in front of me about what their taught is school, 12 and 17.

It's not Fox News, it's called the truth. Maybe that's what they're talking about.

Childrens service SHOULD remove these children from their reckless and irresponsible parents. They are knowingly putting them into a possible dangerous situation. There have been many deaths at the OWS sites. Rape and drugs as reported in the liberal news seems rampant. Mentally defective and deranged people are a significant proportion of the OWS protesters. All in all this is not a good environment for little kids. Parents should know better than to try to use their children as shields hoping that a little kid is hurt just to get some publicity for their greedy selfish Marxist cause. These people are a greater harm to our society than all the so called filthy rich. Do they plan on feeding their kids on the bodies of the rich. There have been many signs with "Eat the Rich". Along with the hate and bigot rants and signs about Jews. No the radical and hate atmosphere, the prospect of danger makes these parents guilty of neglect and endangerment of their children.

And the LAPD once again proves that the United States is now a Dictatorship Police State.

I support the 99%

Uncle Sam,

There have been many deaths at the OWS sites.

How many?

Mentally defective and deranged people are a significant proportion of the OWS protesters.

Are you a psychologist?

Parents should know better than to try to use their children as shields hoping that a little kid is hurt just to get some publicity for their greedy selfish Marxist cause.

So you want to tell people how to raise their kids.

There have been many signs with "Eat the Rich".

It's the name of a song.

Along with the hate and bigot rants and signs about Jews.

The Tea Party protests are no stranger to these.

No the radical and hate atmosphere, the prospect of danger makes these parents guilty of neglect and endangerment of their children.

Let me remove the veil from your argument: You disagree with the message and you think exposing children to that message is harmful.

how can anyone think that our current course of paying labor minimum wage and thus rewarding the rich even more riches, is a healthy course for our economy?

when people can't get enough to eat, or don't have any where to sleep, or can't provide for their children, they will do whatever it takes to survive.

violence will increase and eventually riots will begin.

I just hope this time around, instead of burning down their own neighborhood, they move out to the suburbs where the rich live and burn those houses down.

how can anyone think that our current course of paying labor minimum wage and thus rewarding the rich even more riches, is a healthy course for our economy?

Less than 5% of the workforce earning an hourly wage earn minimum or below. Less than 3% of the overall workforce-http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2009.htm

But hey, let's not let any pesky FACTS get in the way of a good rant. So much easier to just regurgitate whatever BS rhetoric you've allowed yourself to be spoon-fed. Who cares if it makes you look foolish, after all, it's not like you're the only one. Does a fool feel like a fool if he's in a room full of fools? Probably not.

You must be a spoiled rich kid.

I'm sure the fleabaggers all sit around telling themselves the same thing. If your not with us, you must be rich and spoiled.......you folks are in total denial.

denial of what?

You must be a spoiled rich kid.

Doubtful, he was pretty clear on the fact that he opposed OWS. Why would you think he was one of them?

I'm certain that I could go to any tea Party event and grab at least one person who would supply me with delusional ravings about chemtrails, their right to own a fully automatic grenade launcher, or the fluoride conspiracy. one big difference is that with the Tea party events, the police are not directing the homeless (many of which, I hear, are flipping insane) to join the protesters.

I have to assume you are also contemptuous of the massive number of veterans who have been a big part of the occupy movement?

The only thing they are doing wrong is the tents, and the kids. we have a right to assemble and demand improvement, we do NOT have a right to set up housekeeping on public property or expose kids to the known threat of, um, "overenthusiastic" police.

And we cleaned up after ourselves and didn't cost the taxpayers any money..

Jeff, quit using fallacies to support your arguments. Once nut in a group does not make the entire group nutters. You can't see the big picture because you get too distracted by singular morons that say stupid crap like the one you mentioned. Either that or you refuse to see the bigger picture. The bigger picture is that there has not been an iota of any kind of legal ramifications brought upon the banks that knowingly crashed our economy.

There has been no legal actions against the Fed whom, it was just revealed, loaned over 7.7 trillion dollars to the banks under the table over the past several years. This is going to cause major inflation and no the banks are not going to pay it back, if they needed that kind of change to stay in business there is a snow ball's chance in hell that we will ever see that money returned.

The overall broad statement of OWS is that they want these bankers clapped in irons and prosecuted. There is more then enough evidence to convict the CEO's and slap S&P with major fines for rating those craptastic mortgages as Triple A's.

Another thing they want is for politicians to start doing their moral duties and stop accepting bribes from the pimps of the lobbyist industry. They want either the lobbyist industry to be destroyed or a constitutional amendment banning all private sector money from politics period.

They also want to see some heads roll within the Government; they are not too happy with President Obama but even more so with Congress. You can bet that next year many incumbents will have their political careers challenged, if not ended.

TL;DR:

Fallacies get you no where in a discussion in which you are attempting to actively contribute to the intellectual level of the discussion at hand. You were using the Poisoning the Well fallacy by the way; if one person does, says, or thinks it they all must do the same.

Patty-707877

And we cleaned up after ourselves and didn't cost the taxpayers any money.

I'd say those Tea Party losers your clan supported in the last election have cost us more than a few trillion bucks in the downgrade of the US Standard and Poors credit rating. And yes, somebody cleaned up all right: the 1%. And that has cost taxpayers plenty.

He was simply making the point that the tea party rallies happen in a respectful manner.

Yes, calling your President a Nazi socialist is what I would call "respectful"

Tryreality, the core of the problem are the enablers on Capitol and the White House. Go occupy the halls on Congress and the front of the White House and see what happens. Bet they wouldn't last very long because it makes elected lackeys who supported and sympathized with the protesters look like horse puckey.

Papa g..the potus is NOT a black man, he is a commie mooslim

Texas The OWS don't get either.

CSM,

Umm, what good will that do? The President has almost no domestic power other then vetoing. He cannot forcibly make the Congress do their job and he is not responsible for babysitting the children. He has much more important matters to deal with like, besides campaigning since I know someone will throw it out eventually, deal with this whole Pakistan situation and with Iran. Not to mention getting us out of Afghanistan and Iraq.

Excuse me? Geowil

You also need to go back to school and get a tune up, failing that get a refund.

The Pres. is the person who directs the largest domestic government in the world, he has executive authority, granted by the constitution to do whatever he has to within the framework of said document to enforce the provisions of said document.

Which essentially means he can do whatever he wants to, within the rules that apply to him.

Trust me OWS tries to occupy the WH you will see first hand what real power that man has.

Egilman,

I am not implying that Obama has no domestic power, but he has very limited power to create his own laws. All bills must pass through Congress. All the President can do with those bills if sign off on them or veto, and even so Congress can override that veto.

Sure the President can sign Executive Orders into law, but those also have checks and balances. The highest level of domestic power lies with the Congress, Legislative branch, and the Supreme Court, the Judicial branch. The Executive branch is a means to check and balance the other two but has limited power to influence them. Obama cannot make congress do their jobs, he cannot cut their salaries or revoke their vacations. Likewise he cannot tell the Supreme Court what rulings they should give or what laws should be repealed.

No one branch has total control, but the Executive branch has less domestic power then the other two; as noted above.

Geowil

You decidedly need to go get a refund....they didn't teach you very much in school did they....

Egilman, kind of hard to get a refund from a public school. Government and civics were/are not part of any of my college courses in either my AA or BS, or at least not focused like my Senior Gov/Economics class was in HS.

Geowil,

The Executive Branch (you know, the one the President runs) is the largest of the 3 branches of the federal government and creates the most law. Its just that in the Executive branch they are referred to as regulations, not laws. The Executive contains all of those departments represented in the President's cabinet (Justice, State, Defense, Labor, HUD, HHS, Education, Energy, etc.). Egilman's right - back to civics 101 for you, ASAP.

So Mark, you admit to seeing children living in cardboard boxes and failing to report this to local authorities? And on top of this, you condone having children, against their will, to be occupying a public park under the name of a protest day and night? Public parks in urban cities are not designed for full-time use of one group in such a manner. Protests, done in a peaceful way and within reasonable times conducive to the benefit of all, are of course within the parameters of the Constitution. But to allow these sorry excuses for a 'movement' to inhabit an area day and night no longer holds the meaning of a protest, but rather to do so in a perverse manner. Maybe it is news to some here, but almost all municipalities require permits for such use. Yes, so far they have gotten over on the system, but they are also constantly testing the limits, which starts to cross the line.

I have folllowed what the protesters initially attempted at accomplishing, which was to bring attention to such matters as have been spelled out previously. But as the old saying goes, they have already "worn out their welcome". Protesting by itself only goes so far. The next step after 'advertising' is to get involved. Become a politician, become a part of society and contribute to it, to make it better. Show a more positive role, not only for others, but for your children. All I am trying to say is that protesting in itself cannot produce any desired immediate results. To make real change takes progression. I see no effort on the OWS at this point to make any more difference.

rebuttal53

Remove the children from the custody of any one that brings them.

Your diatribe does not keep that act from being abuse and possible endangerment

You sure seemed obsessed with taking people's kids away from them....

The movement is peaceful, having a child there would hardly be abusive. Taking your child to a sporting event could be dangerous too, no? Couldn't a riot erupt with a bad call or a missed crucial foul? Maybe we should shelter our children from life so they will be safe.... /sarcasm

rebuttal53 is just content with telling people how to raise their kids. I get the feeling that the same advise wouldn't be taken.

@ can't: what are you talking about, gun laws are the same as always.

Here the right to speech and assembly is bring trampled

The only people attempting to abuse the right to speech and assembly are the OWSer's. Nowhere in the Constitution does it say you can occupy anything. Nowhere does it say your right to speech allows you to trample on the rights of others. Nowhere does it say you can close off sidewalks, bridges and ports. The OWS people crap all over the Constitution and then idiots try to use the very thing they're trampling all over as a defense. Give me a friggin break.

I have guns, I love my guns, and I love knowing others can't buy my guns. Here is the thing bro, go get guns at a gun show. You know how and I know you have done so. The thing is, now that I have my guns I will do my best to prevent anyone else from getting guns. You know, so they can't shoot back... Quit crying about your guns, load up on all the legal gun show guns you want, then join me in helping to ban others from getting guns.... You know, so they can't shoot back stupid... Gun rights are rights for people who have not bought their guns yet lol. It's like once your 21 you don;t care about voting to lower the age to buy alcohol to 18, you know, because you have your booze and you don't care about the next guy. That's the American way.

The more guns you can keep out of the hands of your fellow Americans, the better... You know, so they can't shoot you..... If you really, really want a gun, go to a gun show.... Non-issue

Last I checked we still have freedom of speech and assembly. You just have to assemble where it's legal and follow the law. That means following curfew, trespassing and obstruction laws.

"The only people attempting to abuse the right to speech and assembly are the OWSer's."

That really makes very little sense but even if you choose to believe it the fact is sometimes you need to practice civil disobedience in order to oppose an unjust system. Invoking the Constitution is cute, but unfortunately the idiots in the Capitol have spat on it so much it is now unrecognizable. What some of these people don't get is you must be prepared for the police brutality and not strike a blow against your oppressors, because then and only then will you gain the moral upper hand. When these Occupiers can prove they can do this more people will respect them for it and hopefully become vocal in the movement, steering it in a more focused direction to advocate for real change

Johnny,

You know there is no such thing as a curfew for adults right? Maybe in Government owned properties but not on publicly owned property. A curfew on publicly own property for everyone is called martial law by most.

can't stop me

Tea partier right here. The don't want me to have my guns. Why should they get freedom of speech. Hose them all down.

This is just more right wing ill-informed crap.... I haven't heard of a single Occupy general assembly so much as mention a gun....

Trample the constitution much?

Toasty,

Where are the permits for these protesters that the Tea Party paid $8500 to the cities for just one day and kept their protest well within the law.

What gives these gimme wannabes the right to be exempt from the law? Hmmmm, smells of liberalism and more freebies as usual with the Protester in Chief afraid to make a stand on this issue one way or another. Bet he's hiding behind his non stop campaigning and failed leadership.

Tad, Why should it cost $ to have a get together? Oh I see, they deserve to be dispersed because they didn't bribe the right officials. Sounds like a protection racket aimed at free speech. Pay us money or else. Sorry that these people are loosing their homes, but they better have their bribes paid up. Public lands are paid with taxes,why should they have to pay to assemble there?

Toasty,even though most won't admit it, the tea party consists of a bunch of pompous,self righteous,vain,egotistical,arrogant,non-producing,worthless,pathetic,abortions of humanity.They are a blight that needs to be removed.

Yea, and they assemble and take over public parks, leave mountains of trash behind, urinate and defacate in public and on sidewalks and demand everything be given to them freely. It costs the cities thousands daily because of these tea party rallies........oh wait, thats the occupy rallies.

The tea parties obtained permits, cleaned up behind them and even paid the city for the added police. Hmmm some difference huh.

@Geowil

A curfew on publicly own property for everyone is called martial law by most.

Martial law? Really? That's funny because the sign in front of every single park in my hometown says "Park Hours", no mention of martial law whatsoever. Honestly, what a ludicrous statement. You guys are really grasping at straws if you think the states do not give the right to cities to close their parks and public places at night. In fact this may be the dumbest statement on the entire board, top 5 for sure. Congratulations on that. LOL!

Backcountry,

If the land is publically own it means it is paid for by the citizens. If they pay for it they should be able to use it when every they feel the need to. What will be next? Will they start closing down roads after a certain time? I mean it is public property after all and as you said the city can do what it wants with it. /s

For Government owned land and privately owned land curfews are fine. The tax payers do not own or use these locations daily, some never at all. But public parks, streets, sidewalks are owned by the tax payers and the City has no right to restrict their use unless they own them, in which case they become Government or private property like Zuccotti Park.

Will they start closing down roads after a certain time?

When the Interstate Highway is impassible due to weather, they decide it is unsafe and they close it down. States have the authority to do so on state highways also. Cities can also close down a road for saftey concerns, such as when there is construction. And yes, if a city decided to close one of it's roads at a certain time every day they'd be well within their right to do so. You actually didn't know they could?

For Government owned land and privately owned land curfews are fine.

Uhhhhh, you think don't think "government land" is publicly owned? You don't believe a city owns the public parks within that city? Your argument of "public land" is ridiculous. Sure the tax payers "own" the land or the road; and then they elect officials whose job it is to set the rules regarding how that land or that road can be used. Surely you don't doubt that cities can set speed limits and stop signs and weight allowances for roads so why can't you grasp hold of the idea that they can do the same with the parks?

Clearly the problem here is that you don't have a clue how things work in the real world. Gee, what a shock.

Backcountry,

You are talking about conditions regarding the safety of the road, in the case you presented. I am not talking about stuff like that. I am talking about making an arbitrary time period for no reason where citizens can not use a public road or park.

And no, I do not think that a city should be allowed to deny a citizen that has paid for a service access to that service at any point in time when they feel that they want to use it. What would you do if they shut 911 down between 1AM and 7AM to try and cut back on expenditures by compromising your own safety by denying you access to that service? What if they closed down the roads, for nor reason other then that they could, between certain hours of the day?

If I paid taxes for a sidewalk to be built somewhere I should be able to walk down that sidewalk no matter the time of day. Simple as that.

Closing a road for repairs, weather conditions, or accidents was not what I was talking about; not sure how you can to that conclusion or if you just read what you wanted to read.

Many of these park's with hour of operation did not exist before OWS began and were enacted only after Mayor's were trying to find a quick and dirty solution to clear them out. That's not the case with all of them, obviously, but there are a few.

No, you are right Government owned land is publicly owned, however there are people that work at these places. Parks have no such staff and should not have hours placed on them (public parks, not national or state ones to be absolutely clear). Otherwise there is no justification because there is no staff on hand that would lead to that requirement. There is no reason to close a public park down between certain hours unless they are building something or repairing something that has been damaged. While maybe they did damage a few things arresting the protestors just to attempt to fix these things is a disproportionate response.

They should have done what Bloomberg tried to do with Zuccotti and asked them to leave between a certain number of days so repairs could be made and then do what Bloomberg was not going to do and let them back into the park.

Obviously we have a difference of opinion between what the Government can tell its citizenry to do and when they can do it; you seem to advocate that a municipality/state/federal Gov can deny it's citizens access to things they paid for while I am on the opposite end of the spectrum in believing that if you paid into it you have a right to use it as you are a stakeholder in that property and that Gov should not be micromanaging when citizens can or cannot use those services or properties when it is not logical to do so based on our last couple of posts (don't have the time nor focus to search through every post you have made to get a better picture of your thought process, arguments, and ideology).

You are talking about conditions regarding the safety of the road

Why do you think parks are closed at night? Just for the hell of it? It's a safety issue, which has also been cited as a reason for disallowing protesters to set up camp. Durrrr

And no, I do not think that a city should be allowed to deny a citizen that has paid for a service access to that service at any point in time when they feel that they want to use it.

Well good for you, why don't you bring that up at your cities next council meeting.

Closing a road for repairs, weather conditions, or accidents was not what I was talking about; not sure how you can to that conclusion or if you just read what you wanted to read.

The reasons are irrelevant, they can do it for whatever reason they choose whether you agree with it or not. You can harp all day about what you think they should be able to do, the reality is that they can and they don't need to provide you with any reason at all.

Many of these park's with hour of operation did not exist before OWS began and were enacted only after Mayor's were trying to find a quick and dirty solution to clear them out.

Please don't state your opinionas if it were fact. Parks close at night for safety concerns, perhaps there was no safety issue overnight in these parks before, there obviously is now. That, in my opinion, would be a much more valid reason. In fact your excuse makes no sense whatsoever. The Constitution does not grant people the right to occupy parks, period, no "if's", "and's", or "but's" about it. Which means up to this point these Mayors have allowed the protesters to remain. Now they are tired, as are the majority of citizens they represnt in most of these cities, of the mess, of the additional cost, and the damage being done to public property and private businesses.

Obviously we have a difference of opinion between what the Government can tell its citizenry to do and when they can do it

Opinion? No, you are the one sharing your opinion regarding what cities can and can't do. What I am doing is pointing out the FACTS of the matter.

Please accept my apologies for the typo...it's late but my point stands. Kids are probably going to get hurt.

Kids won't get hurt if the parents have any common sense, and get them out of there.

I don't want to see anyone get hurt, especially children, but if they do it will serve to strengthen the resolve of the OWS. These people are risking their lives against the fascist state to make this country a better place and they have to listen to comments like "take a shower", and "get a job" from these fat cat politicians who have never wanted for anything, because they are stealing it all from you and I, but people are so brainwashed they can't see that the system is rigged and they will remain willfully ignorant, and that's exactly what the fascist state wants. Just keep spending your money, buy another IPad. Keep you head buried in the sand, they like that.

Are the parents of these kids so irresponsible that they them in middle of an illegal camping site when evictions are about to begin. The stupidity of this reveals what kind of mentality some of these protests have in regards to common sense and logic.

Get your tents, children and your useless butts out of the park and go home. Come back and protest later without the tents and kids. Get a $8500 city permit to protest just like the Tea Party for just one day.

Why do or should we have to pay to protest dont the goverenment get enough of our money ? If its a public park and people want to protest why do they have to pay the goverenment to protest against the goverenment? and btw i think their portay potties should be furnished for them as well.

I dont understand how anyone could say that those there with children should have them taken away, this protest is about the childrens future they should be there and if it gets ugly and the kids get hurt its the goverenments fault..

I'm a fan of about 90% of what the 99% are saying... but I have to agree with you. The tents are, and have been, stupid. If you are going to have a extremely large number of people just show up I could see why they would want to have tents, but "want" and "have a right" to aren't the same thing. I'm certain the American Red Cross or Salvation Army would have set up medical tents on request? and that should have been the only tent in sight.

I've discussed this with other Vet OWS'ers, and I think we had something to do with keeping the Nashville, TN OWS from taking the tent path.

Since the Supremely Daft Court has decided money is speech, I dont think calling a tent speech is such a stretch. Maybe the OWS tent owners just need to buy some judges like the 1% did.

How often do you think George Washington, and his rag-tag band, took shower's, at Valley Forge?

How often do you think Friedrich Paulus, and his rag-tag band, took showers in Stalingrad?

See... I can make ludicris comparisons also.

Psssst, I've got a little secret for you, George Washington was a part of the 1%. In fact he would have been in the top 1% of the 1%, we're talkin' Warren Buffet rich. Good choice of examples, durrrrr.

Or the rag-tag band who wait through long, cold, sleepless nights, for the next great adventure of Harry Potter to hit the theater.

Agreed. I would have picked Thomas Jefferson, myself. As a lawyer, no doubt a member of the "1%", but I'm certain he would be out there supporting the protesters. And telling the idiots "Yes! protest! you have the right" while at the same time ripping into the idiots who set up tents and brought kids into a situation where the police have demonstrated their lack of understanding of what rights (and laws) are.

he would also have shown up at a few tea party event, I'm sure. and not always as a heckler.

Yes and he (Jefferson) would have also supported the rights of the protestors to be arrested and removed from the park also.

Jefferson was a huge advocate of being responsible for your actions.....

AND taking the consequences of said actions.

Personal Responsibility...........Those are unknown foriegn words to most people here and at these rallies.

They make poor life choices and then cant find an employer to hire them, they want to be given everything for free but have no concept of earning it. Just because some one else works hard and succeeds they act like they themselves deserve half of the other persons earnings???????

This is America, you can go from poor to rich, back to poor and then get rich again......its called opportunities......but it takes work, responsibility and sacrifice.

Azrancher

I dont know how old you are but the opportunities for upward mobility in this country have mostly disappeared. More than 70% of the 1% were born wealthy. I have a friend who graduated valedictorian from a great high school and then went on to receive two degrees from a prestigious college and finally moved overseas after both her jobs were outsourced. The American dream has been exported with all the jobs.

Egilman

"Psssst, I've got a little secret for you, George Washington was a part of the 1%"

The OWS movement doesnt necessarily have a problem with the 1%, they have a problem with the favored political status the 1% receives. And considering what the Texas school board has done to our history books, I wouldnt mention Jefferson for too much longer. ("Jefferson was a huge advocate of being responsible for your actions.....") No one from Texas will know who youre talking about!

I dont know how old you are but the opportunities for upward mobility in this country have mostly disappeared

BS. The Treasury Dept does an income mobility study every decade, the last one ran through '05.- http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/tax-policy/Documents/incomemobilitystudy03-08revise.pdf

"Previous research on income mobility over the past several decades has generally found that about half of those in the bottom quintile move to a higher quintile and also that more than half of households move to a different income quintile within about 10 years."

they have a problem with the favored political status the 1% receives.

Again, like George Washington. Did you have a point you were attempting to make?

Page 121 of the righty handbook: "When confronted with reality, frame it as marxist thinking."

rebuttal53

page 118, 119 120, of the lefty manifesto

Yes. Those of us on the left actually get work done. Like creating manifestos and GETTING BIN LADEN.

obama merely continued on bush's path to bin laden,the saudi's after all offered us bin laden and clinton turned him down

Earthmx....wrong and wrong.

All protests are doomed for failure. Can you show me one that worked? Complete waste of time and just another form of whining. If these people really cared about these issues they would stop buying products made in China, and services from mega-corps like AT&T, Apple, Microsoft, Starbucks, Walmart, Target, etc, etc. If they don't mind living in a tent without bathrooms and showers they should be able to hack it.

I personally like my corporate junk and my 401K so have a good time. While I am nowhere near the 1% - I applaud them for their success. Jealously is a destructive thing.

Of course there are. This is the new America. Once when people saw a successful person they were inspired, motivated and wishful that someday that could be them or their children. Today, people see a successful person and they hate them, claim that their success came from some wrongdoing and want the government to steal their money to give to them so they can continue their life pursuing drinking beer and watching reality TV.

Well, if you think about it posting here is just another form of whining too, that doesn't stop us from trying to get our point across. As far as sucessful protests go, how about civil rights? Women's suffrage? Syria? Do those count?

Not entirely - I am posting here on one of my 3 montitors while the other two I am using to program and design websites on. See, I work 12+ hours per day, 365 days per year running 4 corporations (oh no! not evil corporations!) and instead of whining I take action on things I care about. For example, I hate Apple - can't stand the company - so I don't own any of their crap...simple enough. If you hate corporations and Wall Street then stop supporting it - these companies depend on you for sales.

Civil Rights, Womens Rights, etc were a lot more than protesting...there was a lot of real action on the ground. People standing around with signs did little. Look at all the protesting over the Vietnam War - nobody cared that made the real decisions...the US kept on with the war with no concern over puplic outcry.

Mark my words, when all this OWS crap is over - nothing will have changed. The people you are protesting made their money whithin the laws of the nation and people are just going to have to deal with the fact that there are super-rich people in this world...most of them deserve it. Boo-f***ing-hoo.

The Vietnam War movement forced LBJ to focus on ending the war instead of getting re-elected, stopped Nixon from conducting at least one additional bombing campaign, and eventually forced the US to abandon the war. Nobody who made the real decisions cared? You're ignorant of your own history, which I find to be a very common problem on this board

papa g-2380005

WOW!

You really need to brush up on the history friend.....

I was one of those protestors, LBJ escalated the war until there was a HALF MILLION American boys over there getting killed for nothing. Richard Nixon started the drawdown, Richard Nixon went to Russia and China and negotiated them out of the way so we could deal directly with the north.

The North refused to negotiate, so he (Nixon) showed them what real military power was, they came to the table but refused to negotiate in good faith even though they knew that we wanted out. They walked, he (Nixon) then gave then another demonstration they still remember to this day. Then and only then, after an extreme show of strength, they let us out....

I wasn't one of those protesters that waited for the boys to come home and called them baby killers and spit on the troops, I was one that forced my congressmen to witness the horror of fighting a war just for the sake of fighting a war. I helped him to change his mind and vote his conscience.

Yeah I was arrested a few times, I know what a baton feels like, and I know how to make and use a Molotov amongst other things. not a time in my life I am very proud of.

You guys in OWS don't have a clue about what real protesting is.

The point I'm trying to make is whining doesn't do nothing but annoy people, rioting just gets you beat up and thrown in jail, (which are the consequences of rioting), Proving to your elected official that his position is wrong will get the injustice changed, and if he doesn't listen, vote someone in who will listen.

The American constitution was made to prevent anyone from ever silencing the protest ever again. use it the way it was meant to be used....

You want you "Right" to civil disobedience? then accept your responsibility for the consequences.

So why did LBJ try to negotiate peace rather than run for re-election? Why is it documented that the Moratorium affected Nixon's decision making? It seems I got my facts right. The North wouldn't sign, at least in part, because Nixon undercut the discussions believing he and Kissinger could win the prolonged war. The terms of the deal that was ultimately reached were the same as terms agreed upon by both sides before Nixon's term. His massive escalation of the war did nothing to bring an end to the war, everyone knows the Vietnamese would have fought until there were none of them left. Not sure what distorted view of your own history they teach in those American schools but your recollection seems a bit off. Also, no need to assume i'm an actual part of OWS, I'm nothing more than a spectator in all of this

papa g-2380005

You got any links or book sources to validate your claims?
Please post them I would like to see them....

Nixon undercuts peace talks - www.k-state.edu/history/specialevents/Eisenhowerlecture/eisenhower3.htm

books.google.ca/booksid=OLBC9xLD0zYC&pg=PA63&lpg=PA63&dq=nixon+undercut+peace+talks+vietnam&source=bl&ots=xv0XgvW5kF&sig=gpE8z0cx5UISJYQDoMtWPFpcPAY&hl=en&ei=GPTVTpPiLOTh0QHd6b3fAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CDsQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q&f=false

"...encouraging them to go slow in the peace talks and to assure them that they would receive more support from a President Nixon..."

Nixon and the Moratorium - www.thenation.com/blog/nixon-and-1969-vietnam-moratorium

"They were concerned about what would be the biggest antiwar demonstration in US history on Nov. 15, 1969, when half a million people came to Washington D.C. to demand that an end to the war in Vietnam.

Now, newly released documents from the Nixon Library provide fascinating details about the debate within the White House staff two months earlier about how the president should respond. Daniel Patrick Moynihan, at the time an influential member of Nixon's inner circle, suggested that the president could "take away the day" from the protesters if he would "close down" the White House "in sympathy.""

If these aren't good enough for you then do your own research because these are facts

Well when I paste that link in firefox it returns a 404 error. (page not found error see below)

404. That’s an error.

The requested URL /booksid=OLBC9xLD0zYC&pg=PA63&lpg=PA63&dq=nixon+undercut+peace+talks+vietnam&source=bl&ots=xv0XgvW5kF&sig=gpE8z0cx5UISJYQDoMtWPFpcPAY&hl=en&ei=GPTVTpPiLOTh0QHd6b3fAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CDsQ6AEwBg was not found on this server. That’s all we know.

And as far as the Blog article link goes, I'm sure you read all the comments also, it's is pretty well derided and debunked in detail.

A blog posters opinion does not make fact.

The book is "Richard M. Nixon" by Elizabeth Drew. You're a big boy, you can Google that one yourself. As for the blog article, I just used it for its mention of the papers from the Nixon library that discuss this topic. Feel free to access those on your own. I already said I can't do everything for you if you aren't satisfied with my sources. Besides, those comments are mostly like ones you see here, just morons bickering about Fox News and unrelated to the article

Methinks you won't be satisfied with any source I can produce so I'm not going to waste anymore time trying to prove to you what is already known and established

If you want to do more research, this is the book I got a lot of my info from:

www.amazon.com/Major-Problems-History-Vietnam-War/dp/0618749373

I've shared some of my sources, quid pro quo, let's see yours

You are right in that this is a book by Elizabeth Drew, she was a MSM reporter that covered Nixon during watergate. I'm sure she takes an absolutey unbiased position.

Why don't you give me something NOT from the left wing media reporter turned author?

But of course, you do not have anything, you have already said so.

Methinks you won't be satisfied with any source I can produce so I'm not going to waste anymore time trying to prove to you what is already known and established

I would take anything that isn't from a left wing watergate tainted source. The truth usually rests somewhere in the middle, unfortunately what was able to be read (google books you know) was insufficient in how deep she went into the subjects. The Reviews on this book are not all good, it is less than 200 pages and is part of Arthur Schlesinger, Jr's "The American Presidents" series.

I would much prefer Professor Joan Hoff's Nixon Reconsidered as a better read if you really want to understand who Nixon was and his presidency.... 496pgs, ISBN 0465051057

papa g-2380005

www.amazon.com/Major-Problems-History-Vietnam-War/dp/0618749373

This unfortunately, is a liberal college textbook, hardly an in-depth presentation of the issues surrounding the Vietnam War and certainly nowhere near deep enough to comment on what Richard Nixon was really all about.

I am posting here on one of my 3 montitors while the other two I am using to program and design websites on. See, I work 12+ hours per day, 365 days per year running 4 corporations

It doesn't sound like your pursuit of mammon is improving your quality of life.

The American constitution was made to prevent anyone from ever silencing the protest ever again. use it the way it was meant to be used....

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." John F. Kennedy

RobertI-4397988

Hear! Hear!

"Ask not what you country can do for you, ASK, what YOU can do for your country!"

You are responsible for yourself, your station in life depends on YOU!

That man had more wisdom than many give him credit for.

The textbook contains many declassified documents and essays that take both sides. Seems my assumption that none of my sources would be good enough for you was right. You ask for unbiased sources, and by that I assume you mean non-liberal conservatively-skewed sources that will not contain heavy criticism of Nixon or his handling of Vietnam. Look up these facts for yourself if you don't like my sources.

Now I'll ask you again, show me the sources that support your argument. This is all too typical of right-wing posters on this board. I contradict your argument, you demand facts, I give you facts, you just deride them as liberal garbage, and then you refuse show any facts of your own. Until you can show me something useful I refuse to waste any more time on this

Ahhh compassionate conservatives........

I am an atheist, pro-gay, pro-choice and a Libertarian that wants to see the federal government reduced to rubble. That sound conservative to you? There is more in this world than black and white Dave.

About 100 miles north east of LA in the middle of the desert. A place called The National Training Center, Ft. Irwin. Let them set their tents and occupy a live fire box !

It's not funny to joke about violence.

Joking about something is the first step to acceptance. You joke about how your gf broke up with you in front of your friends. We joke about gay people, we joke about our racism.

Creating the positive atmosphere for an action invariably leads to someone, not necessarily you, stepping forward and carrying out that action.

Violence against non-violent people is NEVER a solution. If you think it is, then your heart is darker then you let on.

@ angrybusinessowner

There are children there and good hardworking people who want change in this country and ur solution is to gun them down? /cries for the future of this country and the goodness of its people..

Gorge, They are not lazy, your comments are foolish. "'' the Occupy LA" Has n o purposes,no objectives".

What they are marching for is (well, some of it):

Campaign finance reform so that corporations could not buy OUR politicians;

Repeal of the Citizens United rule that designates corporations as 'people';

Stop Congress using "insider trading" with no penalties;

Make those in our government subject to the same laws we are;

End to wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, and no further involvement in foreign countries until the needs of Americans have been addressed;

Stop spending American taxpayer money on foreign countries, and instead use that money to help America to repair our failing infrastructure, build schools so our children can get a decent education, take care of our seniors who have to choose between food and medicine;

Bring down the cost of health care so that more Americans can afford it;

Close tax loopholes for all, from the top to the bottom;

Stop the Federal Reserve (illegally in place);

Prosecute all those involved in the housing, Wall Street, etc debacles instead of rewarding them with billions of US dollars;

Make college education more affordable so that more middle class Americans have a chance to improve themselves ;

Stop Foreign/economic/military aid to foreign countries (150 of them a year receive those "aid" packages from us)

Does that partial list sound "stupid" to you? Or does it sound like a reasonable protest of what our government is illegally doing?

I think you need to occupy a middle school English class.

knine, don't you read the ignorant comments of the Tea Partiers? They just want their student loans forgiven...

Do u have any idea what ur saying . I dont think u do.. Do u care about anyone besides urself. Having ur children stolen or kidnapped from the goverenment because they are standing up for what they believe to be right is no different then when the slave owners in the south took the children from their familes to sell them or do whatever they wanteed with them.

those childern are only in harms way if the cops or goverenment decide to get violent with the parents lets hope that dosent happen .

Having ur family abducted by goverenment officials dcfs for acting on ur beliefs is not right.. and having smelly parents is not a good enough reason and u have no idea if these people are lazy or crazy all u have to go on is what everyone is saying... maybe we think ur crazy and lazy proably drink and smoke ur a unfit parent lets call dcfs on u...

really so you have never head of any interviews with the ows where the ask for free college or signs that say college should be free because everyone else has expect left lemmings oh and while on the subject of ows stupidity look at these pictures http://gopsupporters.newsvine.com/_news/2011/11/30/9123333-the-true-image-of-the-ows

Don't get me wrong, I am all for a revolution and taking it back. I want to kick that socialist out of the White House, repeal social security, welfare, labor relations act and end federal income tax...hand government back to the states - which is what the founding fathers wanted and we let liberal leaders ruin.