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Los Angeles police officers process two arrested Occupy LA protesters near City Hall after a deadline to dismantle their encampment passed on Wednesday.
Major police actions have cleared Occupy movement encampments in New York, Portland, Los Angeles and Philadelphia, leaving protesters in other cities preparing for the same. Among the next likely targets are camps in Seattle, Boston and San Francisco.
For some 100-150 Occupy Seattle protesters living on the grounds of Seattle Central Community College, eviction was ordered on Nov. 23, but action was temporarily barred by a restraining order. A judge is slated to rule on the case Friday afternoon — after which the camp could become fair game.
College administrators have voiced support for the camp and First Amendment rights but on Nov. 23 called for an emergency change of state administrative rules to bar camping, citing “deteriorating conditions” in the camp.
Protesters argue that the problems administrators and others are pointing to are preexisting conditions — homelessness, mental illness and poverty — that have been ignored. “We are dealing with people who have been thrown under the bus — people who have addictions, they are out on the street,” says Joshua Farris, an organizer. “We’re saying these drug problems, this crime, these people who we are helping were here before we even came here … We’re saying our presence is making a positive impact. They are saying it's negative.”
The protesters are talking with neighborhood churches to create a backup plan in the event of eviction.
If the ban on camping is upheld, the eviction could be effective by the end of business Friday, said college spokesperson Patricia Paquette. But she emphasized that community college chancellor Jill Wakefield is committed to a civilized outcome.
“Seattle is well-known for coming up with innovative solutions,” Wakefield said. “My hope is that we would be able to provide a model of cooperation to move the campground to a location that is safer and more appropriate.”
In San Francisco, members of the Occupy movement who have staked out territory in Justin Herman Plaza had faced a noon deadline to clear out. It was the latest of the “final” orders to vacate, which have been ignored by the demonstrators.
Protesters met to consider an alternative site offered by the city, but the meeting ended inconclusively, according to a report by the Mercury News. As of noon, according to the report, no one at the encampment of about 150 appeared ready to leave.
Meanwhile in Boston, a judge ruled Thursday that protesters may stay in their encampment in Dewey Square until she issues a decision on or before Dec. 15, Bloomberg reports. There is a restraining order in place to prevent eviction of 100-150 protesters despite warnings that the combination of crowding, flammable tarps and cigarettes presented a safety hazard that one fire official compared to napalm.
In Portland, some Occupy demonstrators were planning to march through the city Saturday and occupy another unspecified park. The Occupy Portland folks were cleared from encampments at Chapman and Lownsdale Square parks on Nov. 13.
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Leave a Comment:
Evict Congressmen.
There is nothing in the First Amendment that says anything about any American being allowed to "occupy" anything. Under the peaceable assembly clause of the First Amendment, protesters, demonstrators and activists do not have the right to "occupy" anything. Occupy means to reside in. Peaceable assembly does not equate occupation.
Workhorse
What a lame attempt to justify the destruction of the first amendment.
The OWS message, if there ever was one, is so muddled that all they have become is a nuisance. If they want to appear as if they are intelligent people with a plan, they need to totally change their approach. Right now they are on the verge of becoming totally irrelevant.
Occupation implies capture/control of a resource/area. These OWS groups have done nothing but disenfranchise the real 99% to their cause and wreck havoc for those of us trying to actually work.
If they're so freaked about not having jobs, there's thousands of jobs available for them across the nation. All they have to do is stop being entitled asses and realize that not everyone can be a rocket scientist...even a rocket scientist.
abrover banned, re-reg of multiple accounter Rory3566.
Evict idiot tresspassers
OWS is dead. Maybe they looked in the mirror and realized they are part of the problem. No question there are problems with some corporate executives, some politicians, some corporations, but we are all to blame. We all thought we deserved to own a house, and that the value will go straight up. We all thought we would make more and more money to pay off our debt. We all had to have everything now.
Corporations do not want the 99% to suffer, that is who they make their money off of.
So to OWS, I say find something else to do. Do volunteer work for a charity. Help society.
I did not say get a job, but that would help.
i have been working since i was 14 and i'm 50 now i have no new car no house
no retirement and i still go to my job i hate everyday! that's life! nobody gave
me anything and i never expected the government to be reponsible for giving
me free stuff! i hate these protesters cause it's all a bunch of liberal hippy crap!
Working since you were 14, no house, no retirement and you hate your job. And yet you take the side of the people who have ensured that the hard work you hate, yet have done for 35+ years is not even valued enough to buy you a place to live.
You work your entire life to live in a rental with no security for your declining years and you still sidle up to your master.
You're a whipped cur, head down and tail wagging, begging forgiveness for sins you didn't commit.
You insult the people who have the stones to stand up for you and what should rightfully be yours- the opportunity to turn hard work into something more than scrabbling on the hamster wheel every day just to stay afloat.
You're being crushed under the heel of your masters and you like it. It's pathetic and disgusting.
This Occupy Wall Street movement is supposed to be the Left's answer to the Right's Tea Party. I definitely see how the two movements match with their political allies. Lawless dirt bag citizens on the Left. Clean, law abiding citizens on the Right. How many stories of violence and forced evictions did you see in conjunction with a Tea Party event? How often did you see a park look worse after a Tea Party event than before the event? How many cops did it take to keep a Tea Party event in check? How many injuries or deaths were attributed to a Tea Party event? Yea, much like the Left, the OWS are a worthless bunch!
Slow down Rodney, trash and overflowing out-houses seem to appeal to the lefties.
Does that include those derivative's market dealers? You know, those 1%'ers that sold toxic debt to unsuspecting institutions all around the world and played the lead role in wrecking world economies. Yeah, some real clean, law abiding citizens there.
But you have more disdain for the OWS crowd, how bizarre.
So you are saying that your insides are trash, but you look good and follow the law.
Okay, first off, there are extremes on both ends. To use the worst examples of the very end of a linear spectrum of people to paint a picture about the entire group of people is unfair and inaccurate. I wouldn't compare the TP to OWS because they aren't in the same category. One's an active protest, the other is psuedo-ideological/political party. A better comparison would be OWS to the Freedom Summer activists or civil rights protests, seeing as both are using non-violent civil disobedience, and if you do that you'll also see similarities in what the detractors of those two movements said.
I believe SoNot's point was that while the TP calls these protestors criminals because they may, MAY, be in violation of some municipal ordinance (which under the 1st Amendment may be inapplicable anyway), the TP folks say nothing about the criminal fraud and violations committed by the Wall St. people. Fraud and violations that victimized and stole money, homes, and opportunity from the protestors. And, gimmie a break, the rape of women??? Newsflash, men don't become rapists because they join OWS. It's not contagious. You can't catch "rapist" by joining OWS. That man would've been a rapist, and would've raped someone regardless. And, come to think of it, since when do you TP folks care so much about women? You're the ones that would force her to carry that rapist's fetus. Oh, and by the way TP, you're complaining about misdemeanors, when you're named after a felony.
Listen, people have a legitimate reason to be angry. The actions of Wall St. and the influence of Wall St. on our politicians has stomped out the American Dream. Keep in mind that after the recession started, the share of total wealth owned by the top 1% of the population grew from 34.6% to 37.1%, and the top 20% saw their wealth rise by about 2% points. The middle class saw their median household wealth decrease by around 36% while the top 1% saw their drop by only about 11%.
Also keep in mind that the SCOTUS decisions of Valeo and Citizen's United enabled Wall St. to buy financial deregulation from Washington. Gripe about Fannie and Freddie if you like, but the overwhelmingly agreed upon truth, is that they only contributed 16% to the proliferation of high risk mortgages. TARP was necessary because of deregulation. The stimulis was necessary because of deregulation. This whole mess was caused because of deregulation. It's the difference between a reactive solution and a proactive one. Without regulations, there is no free market, only a rigged one.
The overwhelming majority of OWS folks have lived up to their end of the bargain. They've gone to school, followed the law, paid taxes and voted. They've been promised that if you do these things, and allow Wall St. and the government to do their things, you will have a job and a realitively good life. They continued to believe in that as they watched corporations become people, tax cuts being given to the rich, two wars begun, their pensions pilfered and their homes forclosed on. While simultaneously watching the very people responsible for the loss of their jobs, homes, and pensions becoming increasingly wealthy through increasingly criminal activity.
Upward mobility has all but ceased in this country. We have an entire ruling class of political and intellectual elite. Why should the OWS or middle class not only have to suffer at the hands of the corrupt ruling class, but in addition have to also find the solution to their corruption. They broke it, they need to fix it. OWS isn't trying to take away that wealth or "eliteness" (that would be class warfare, fyi) they're trying to speak out and enact cooperation from that ruling class.
"First they laught at you, then they fight you, and then you win." - Gandhi
Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. Therefore, the police should carry a copy of the Constitution and read it before they allow anyone above them to defy the Constitution. They certainly should never hit protestors with bats, nor pepper spray, nor impose curfews on those who are peaceably doing what they have the right to do. Someone is telling the police to act and since they are the equivalent to the military in respect to the defense of the Constitution, the police should defend the Constitution against all oppressors foreign and domestic, too. Funny how police know the code enforcement book inside and out and forget the First Amendment because someone in an ivory tower tells them to do something, even if it is wrong. These protestors are doing what the Costitution allows for. They shouldn't have to request to anyone when they want to redress their grievances or have to reserve a space. Read the Constitution. And all you who boohoo these people have better things to do than troll on those who seek redress to what the 1 per cent have wrought on the 99 per cent for profit and greed.
Jack
Haven't you heard?? RIGHTS HAVE RESPONSIBILITIES AND LIMITS. Since the OWS crowds don't have the proper permits they are in violation of the law. But it seems you Liberals have little if any respect for the law. If the Park closes at 10 PM leave and come back in the morning. Pay you fee for use of the Park if required,and protest all you want till 10 PM. Then repeat. What is so hard about that??? By the way get your PERMITS like the TEA Party did.
Maybe, Jack, you could invite them over to set up housekeeping on your front yard. Never mind the garbage they accumulate, you can pay for extra trash cans from your garbage company, and oh, don't forget to have a mess of porta pottys delivered as well. They should have that right, no?
The Supreme Court has struck a balance between these competing goals of free speech and keeping order. The Court has held that the government may place reasonable restrictions on the time, the place, and the manner in which people speak and assemble.
Boom, you and a few others here are so concerned with the protestors that you seem to be defending the people who really made the mess, the ones the protestors are protesting. Maybe you all should open your savings accounts up to the Investment Bankers and let them help themselves, then scrape together a bit more so they can have another bonus.
Perhaps ows has to fight harder and more perverse because we are getting desperate for our sons and daughters to come home from foriegn lands and we want American jobs we college is so expensive that the average man cant go without taking out a high rate loan to give our hard earned dollors to the banks ...
No one is doing anything about Americas problems we need someone to pay attention, and hopefully the goverenments will see how desperate the people are becoming...
The tea party had homes jobs and educations the ows maybe not so much. All the orginizations that used to help so many people are shut down there are no resourses for the addictis homeless hungery these are running out...
If no one in america needs ows fine but i say those without a voice do need ows and in rights so does every American in this country.. the forget the downtrodden first then u next and these wars that cost so much dam money to fight and all the while were selling arms to many of the enimies we fighting ... come on people open ur eyes ..
American jobs exist, Americans are too stuck up to take them.
Some people can aspire to be President. Others should feel lucky to pass middle school.
There are many ways to approach the problem. Perhaps the best one is using the Constitution as the basis of the argument. If no laws can be passed to block access of the press and the people's right to assemble peaceably without limit to the size of the demonstration (as guaranteed by the Constitution), then the police should stand aside and allow the people to surround the Governors, or the buildings where laws are made until someone acts on behalf of those whom they are pledged to serve. Certainly, petitions can be signed and offered up for voting, but when the Congress refuses to act upon those petitions, then the last resort is to have the people peaceably go to where the governors are and confront them. Can you imagine how fast the laws would change if the police would truly stand on the correct side of the Constitutional law?
We see it happening around the world and cheer. Yet, when we have the same demonstrations here in the US, our Americans seem to forget how to make a government respond. The OWS movement is alive and the majority of the people agree something needs to be done. Please understand they are doing what our Constitution allows them to do.
Jack
I refer you to post #5.1
The police are serving those they are pledged to. The real 99%. Not the people that are causing problems for the 99% that are just trying to go about thier lives. As in taking care of thier business, going to work, providing for themselves and thier families.
Not the people squatting in parks and holding thier breath until someone fixes all thier self imposed problems.
Wow, the laws you speak of are in conflict when it comes to the peaceably assembling. How can you use curfew, or any law that stops the people from voicing their redresses. I will grant you that it would seem that blocking people from crowding a floor not designed for the weight might be reasonable, but the Constitution does not include restrictions other than the fact that citizens have the right to peaceably assemble. More than that could be in conflict with the intent of the meaning of the first amendment. Certainly, it would seem there could be a time in many nations when the people rise up to air their grievances. Using curfews to block them or requiring a permit for them to stand on the ground or sleep there, if necessary, to be heard doesn't seem to be a good enough reason if the Congress refuses to meet with them. I know everyone wants to blame someone for things that scare them. But look at the true patriots that are willing to listen to the protestors and you decide which party is willing to go out and listen to them. And then you decide when you vote which side you really want to be on. If you do not seek to understand the protest, you may not be qualified to judge those who seek redress.
I see some things in the news now that never got there before these protestors stood up and wanted to speak. We should cheer them on. It's not that they want anything for free. But they do want to be treated fairly. Remember, there is no reason why corporations could not pay higher wages, nor make our lives better. They declared the war. The citizens are just responding.
Jack
Nobody is stopping them from protesting. Just do it in accordance with the law. Pay for the Permits required and Protest to your hearts content. At closing time go home come back tomorrow What is so hard about that??
And Jack Nobody said that Life is fair. Deal with it. Do something to better your lot in Life. Just don't say "He has more then me IT'S NOT FAIR"
The law is the problem. Worship it if you please, but I worship only justice.
Ok SLOWDON, I'm an award winning vet, a 2 time high school football state championship winner, I have a GREAT job with awesome benefits and I am an extremely positive influence on my community...so how come I'm being ignored every time I speak up with support for OWS? Why am I disrespected and called names when I even mention OWS? Why can't I speak and be heard? Why is it that every time I step up and voice my support everybody just calls me crazy and tells me to get a job?
I am SO SICK of all of you instigators constantly trying to justify your sick disrespect of others who see things differently simply because they see things differently from YOU. Permits you say? Ok, here's a little tidbit for you: Occupy Denver protesters applied for permits 27 times and were denied 27 times, so you do the math and tell me how that's fair.
The propaganda campaign against the OWS movement is winning the war, but that just goes to show how weak and flaccid our society has become. The great Thomas Jefferson is rolling in his grave right now. Civil War 2 HERE WE COME!!!
BTW, "peaceably assemble" has MANY different meanings, one of which is to assemble in a place for an undetermined amount of time to attempt to force the change necessary to stave off the negativity that comes with the disenfranchisement of the masses.
Look, my story is the perfect example of the rumors and lies about the people of OWS. I don't want free crap or higher pay, I want to change our governmental system to better reflect the principles (that have been forgotten) of our forefathers.
All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression.
Thomas Jefferson
I'm pretty sure he meant that it should be reasonable to the minority and not the majority, but that's just my translation, figure it out for yourself.
Take them to court. Problem solved.
Ranger
After taking with my wife I decided to answer you in the appropriate way.
I'm a combat Vet also. Flew as a crew chief on a HH-19 chopper from 1965 to 1966. I scored 2 touchdowns on Offense and 1 on Defense in my High School Football career. Small school played 6 man ball. I retired from a great job. Supplied a house, health care and schooling for my family. I to have an impact on my community by building and giving away computers to the children in my town. My cousin won the World Series MVP for the Angels in 2002!!! Why can't I speak and be heard???
I too am sick of "constantly trying to justify your sick disrespect of others who see things differently simply because they see things differently from YOU."
Now get off of your high horse,somebody always has a higher horse, and do something other then complain.
Ranger
Now that we have gotten the BS out of the way do you want a debat on the merits of the TEA PArty Vs the Occupiers?? I'm not a member of either but am aligned in spirit with the TEA Party. I'm an unabashed conservative. Was a registered Democrat for 45 years. How about you??
@ Ranger
You don't win awards in the military, you earn them.
Have a nice day..."Ranger."
Ignore the protesters.
Amen. If the press decided to cover popsicle trucks instead, the OWS movement would be history.
Yes, exactly. Nobody who says something you don't agree with could possibly have anything of value to say.
Echo chambers for all!
The OWS protests are fading away. The big mistake was making it about the right to camp out rather than some of the serious issues facing the country.
The reason the protests are "fading away" is the people who are on the other side have sabotaged the movement with propaganda and deception instead of battling them with integrity and honor, and we all know that negativity resonates longer and louder than positivity. The more people keep saying it's fading away the more people start to ignore it and go back to their crappy slave driven lives, unknowingly quitting and giving in to the control mechanisms put in place by the greedy and rich, who payed for this outcome and are already making money and growing their sheeple base off this. I am sickened by the treatment of these people, who are human and deserve some dignity NO MATTER THE CIRCUMSTANCES, that was the whole point of the Constitution, to put everyone in the same category when it comes to rights. Do you see anything in the Constitution about drug addicts getting less rights? They had some SERIOUS drug problems back then and pretty much everyone was an alcoholic, so what do you say to that? Yea, nothing...that's what I thought.
Vet,
While I thank you for your service, I have to question how well you're seeing the issue at hand.
They have a right to protest. But that right ends when it infringes on the rights of others to make use of the public land they're destroying through constant occupation. Laws exist, and breaking them doesn't make you a hero. It makes you a criminal, and its a long road back to remove that label. Options have always existed to fix these issues, but nobody is willing to take them; they're not easy. They're not quick. But nothing good is.
The control mechanisms (law) you're speaking of were put in place to protect all the people, rich or poor. What needs fixing is not the law, but the application of it further down the chain of effect. Fixable, just like all these "corrupt" politians everyone rails upon...right before they vote for them cause none of the complainers are willing to go against them.
I'm not quite sure if I can support all of what the OWS people are protesting about and what they stand for, but I do support The Constitution of the United States of America and what it stands for. What I will never support however, is the way our government is addressing this issue and those who are so down on the OWS for exercising their rights given to them by The Constitution. Obtaining permits is pretty much impossible when local governments have written in laws restricting these kinds of peaceful demonstrations. That in itself is in violation of the peoples civil rights. One of the things that ticks me off more than anything is to see someone burn an American flag, it absolutely gets me fighting mad. But I have to bite my tongue and accept it because it is their right to do so....Grrrrrr. At the time The Constitution was written, it was to be “the law of the land”, giving equal rights to anyone and everyone, no matter if others agree or not, regardless if its one person or a million people, the right to be heard and express yourself in whatever fashion suits a person is to be allowed as long as it doesn’t infringe on the Constitutional rights of others.
So, for those of you who think you're better than anyone else, making personal verbal attacks about what “you think” is right or wrong, you had better think twice before doing so. It might be you someday who needs to exercise your civil rights. Be damn glad you have them and remember those who died for you and your rights.
Carry on OWS and God Bless America
The Supreme Court has struck a balance between these competing goals of free speech and keeping order. The Court has held that the government may place reasonable restrictions on the time, the place, and the manner in which people speak and assemble.
The Supreme Court is full of traitorous, sold out puppets. How else can you explain United States vs. Citizens United?
The Supreme Court is just like the rest of our political system: corrupt to the core.
abrover - Congratulations on winning the Dumbest Reply of the Day award.
The Supreme Court established these laws decades ago.
@boocs2006
You obviously have little idea as to how a court system is run, or how a discussion is handled.
abrover's reply is correct. If you want to change the Supreme Court, get on it. The Supreme Court's only job is to determine constitutionality and if procedures were followed. That's why a lot of cases don't get actually ruled on, just returned to the lower courts for redo's.
The current Supreme Court lineup is ethically challenged - look at Clarence Thomas, who hasn't asked one single question during any proceeding for YEARS. Pretty much says his mind is made up before anything actually starts.
The day the Supreme Court gathered behind closed doors to consider the politically divisive question of whether it would hear a challenge to President Obama’s healthcare law, two of its justices, Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas, were feted at a dinner sponsored by the law firm that will argue the case before the high court. A clear violation of judicial ethics.
@allswell - You may know how the court system is run on paper, but you obviously have no idea how things really go down in practice. And you never did say how Citizens United fits in to your excuse for a corrupt Supreme Court. Just because the Supreme Court rules on something doesn't make it right, ESPECIALLY when it is in clear direct violation of the Constitution. Making a law doesn't mean that law is correct.
@boocs2006
Do you mean Citizens United vs FEC? Cause that's the only case that shows up. And it had to do with First Amendment rights to belittle a public figure.
You're wrong, and you're avoiding the question.
First you claim Citizens United vs FEC is a sign of corruption.
Then you quote something stating it upholding First Amendment rights.
WTF are you smoking?
EDIT: Let me guess, its the "funded by corporations" part that gets you? You do realize its also allowed to be done when done by individuals? The issues of Citizens United was whether obviously politically motivated groups could invoke First Amendment rights to protect politically motived attacks in the guise of being a third party.
That's right, it is all about corporations being allowed to fund attacks, and to influence our elections.
If you don't realize that all corporations are not necessarily owned by Americans, and that corporations have no other legal obligation than to increase the profits for shareholders, then the idea of corporations being allowed to dump as much money as they want into our elections should be repugnant to you. Especially when it's deceptive and misleading, as your own statement includes the term 'in the guise of'....but deception doesn't seem to bother you at all, so go ahead, live in your little bubble while those of us that are serious about change make it happen. Your bubble will only last for so long.
Again, there was never anything against allowing individuals to do so, so why would it matter if a corporation did it? Previously it was obvious when an individual was playing the frontman for a corporation. ANYONE can influence ANYONE, you can't really stop that.
Do campaign finance laws need to be addressed? Yes, but they need to be done across the board, primarily for visibility. If someone donates to your campaign publicly, you owe them nothing. When they do it in the shadows, then they own you.
So once again...did you have a point? How is the case of Citizens United a violation of the Constitution?
I asked OWSers on another thread why they shouldn't have to clean up the parks they've camped in for two months. And if they don't, why they shouldn't have to pay to clean it up if someone else does the work.
Oddly, I didn't get a single response.
Let me guess. The first amendment means free speech, and it also means you can camp out and trespass wherever you feel like it, and you don't have to clean up after yourselves, right?
Seriously, I'd like the OWSers to explain to me why they shouldn't be responsible for cleaning up the parks.
If you actually visited one of these encampments you'd find that most of them are orderly and clean. You're being lied to by people with an agenda when you're told that the OWS camps are all filthy horror shows.
In many cases, the encampments have attempted to bring in things like porta-johns and other sanitation infrastructure, only to be prevented from doing so by governments who would prefer to force them to live in unsanitary conditions so they can be evicted for creating unsanity conditions.
In other words, the reason you didn't get any responses is because your entire premise is a strawman.
What you seem unable to realize is that the ground's rules likely disallow porta-johns.
The real strawman is all of the attempts to ignore the rules and laws already in place, or to bend them to allow permanent residence in public space.
Using porta-johns in a public space is not an unreasonable accomodation.
The right of the people to assemble trumps local regulations- despite what the authoritarians will tell you. Yes, maybe they're not following local regulations. That does not mean they don't have the right to use a public space to protest. The United States Constitution makes this quite clear- you can't use a local zoning regulation to trump the fundamental law of the land.
In short, the rights of a large movement of people to make a statement by assembling in a public space is covered by the First Amendment. They have the right to be there, the question is whether this country will stand up to its principles and accomodate the people who are exercising their rights, or will we simply ignore the fundamentals of our government?
Your rights exist independent of acknowledgement of them by the city, county, state or the police. They cannot be taken from you, but you can give them up simply by refusing to exercise them, or worse by telling other people they are wrong for exercising them.
The right of the people to assemble trumps local regulations- despite what the authoritarians will tell you.
No, it doesnt, despite what outhouse lawyers will tell you. There are restrictions imposed by the SCOTUS.
Ah, SCOTUS. The corrupt group of filthy individuals slowly turning human rights into corporate rights.
The Consititution does not give you the right to break local ordinance beyond assembling. They could assemble each day and leave each night, and they'd be perfectly within their rights and the law.
Americans need to quit this entitlement bull@!$%#. And this is from someone living below the poverty line.
The Constitution trumps any local ordinance, and SCOTUS is now owned by corporate America.
Americans need to wake up to how badly we've been screwed over the last 30 years. We're a few decades overdue for a revolution.
The Constitution isn't unlimited.
Its unbelievable the number of people who think otherwise.
No, the Constitution has been twisted to serve the needs of the few.
The revolution is coming, what will you do? Hide under your bed, I imagine.
What will I do? What I swore to do, defend the Constitution from enemies foreign and *domestic*.
So you tell me: will I see you down my sights, or your meatshield?
More importantly, I'd like Wall Street's Investment Bank Executives to explain why they shouldn't be responsible for cleaning up the economy they wrecked.
We haven't received a response from them either.
Oh yes, I was expecting the "two wrongs make a right" response.
Without deflection, can anyone answer my question? Why OWSers don't have to clean up the places they've camped in for two months? Anyone?
@sonotright
...and how about the trashing of public property? Or don't you think you protesters don't have a responsibility to "clean up the crap they left up?"
Deflecting the issue doesn't answer it. But, then again, I recognize that you and your cronies think as long as you can, you don't have to be responsible for a damn thing...right? I mean that's the way you lead your lives and think...and why you dumb sh*ts can't pack your own sand. Check out the "L" on the middle of your forehead... LMAO at each and every one of you.
Clean freak.. eh???
Hey Jax,
The reason why the OWS folks aren't "cleaning up their mess" is because they have been raided in the dead of the night and arrested and taken away. Meanwhile, the cops and crews came in and "cleaned up" all of their personal belongings while they were gone, all the while squawking loudly about all the "mess" left by OWS.
Also...realize that the recent police breakups in LA and NYC were done under a media blackout. Only certain media were invited to that party. Aren't you concerned that you are being played by big media? Why don't you wonder why?
@Jax & @Tango, Your priorities are mixed up. The protestors are leaving trash behind in a park and the Investment banks have trashed an entire economy, actually world economies. Until the corruption gets cleaned up I really don't care what trash gets left in the park or who cleans it up.
The protestors are there because of what the bankers and others like them have done to all of us. They, and your kids, are looking at a future of lower pay, NO company pensions, reduced benefits, reduced social security, and perhaps no Medicare, not to mention a dirtier, hotter planet. They should all be happy citizens and not make a mess? It's a wonder they're as well-behaved as they are.
Timesfour, are you seriously trying to tell me that ALL the OWSers were arrested? Every single one of them? And how long were those that were arrested actually detained? A few hours? And you're not trying to tell me all that trash that's visible in all the pictures is someone's personal property, are you?
Again, why won't anyone answer this simple question?
Why aren't OWSers responsible for cleaning up the mess they made? Is this a difficult question?
@SoNotRight
Can you even explain what occupying public spaces is supposed to accomplish?
Is it...nothing?
If it were "nothing" we wouldn't be here on this forum talking about it would we?
All the ones that were arrested should pay a 500 dollar fine and be forced to clean up the park.
[quote]If it were "nothing" we wouldn't be here on this forum talking about it would we?[/quote]
You obviously know nothing about the ability of humanity to argue about absolutely nothing for a lifetime.
Point in fact.
Dear Slodon. The Constitution says Congress shall pass no law...this means permits and curfews are not required because they are the laws you keep saying the protestors should adhere to. The whole first amendment is as clear as a bell. The people are seeking redress and whether they are OWS or Tea Partiers, they have a right to seek it. There is no "where or when it is convenient" for the school or the state or the nation in the First amendment verbage. Normally, curfews and permits are a fair requirement, except when it comes to the redress of grievances.
How do you think progress gets made if we allow PR firms and enforce laws to remove our rights to protest? How can we make government work if we don't allow the people they are pledged to serve take a time out and say so. Why should it be convenient? What makes you think it should be convenient? Why do you chastise the people that are sincerely believing they have the right to protest because they take the First Amendment at face value?
I understand you are trying to say they should pay their way, abide by all laws, and allow the corrupt officials to step all over their rights, but I believe you are wrong in this instance. Read the amendment word for word and understand why it was written the way it was. We do not live in Bizarro world. The words are plain and enlightening if you would just understand the reasoning behind them. The people have no laws that should override the Amendment if they are doing what the amendment requires.
And just because one or a few people are homeless or drunk in the seeking of redress, we should not seek to undermine the reason the rest are there. The left wing listened to the Tea Partiers. It seems to be the lawmakers and their trolls that refuse to listen to the enderlying reason for the OWS protest. And many on the left refuse to listen, too. But can we both agree that at some time when one person has all the riches there would be a time to stand up and protest and seek redress.
Please don't blame a stupid person for being stupid. In a football game 50 per cent of the people are losers, but that doesn't make them un-American or make them unworthy of listening to. Step out of your box and see that these protestors are not all liberals. They seek fairness in our laws and redress the leadership to change them to benefit us all. Just because you may be satisfied with your lot in life and were taught that some people have no value, you should not be so sure in your beliefs that you think you are the only intelligence in the room.
The Supreme Court has struck a balance between these competing goals of free speech and keeping order. The Court has held that the government may place reasonable restrictions on the time, the place, and the manner in which people speak and assemble.
Jack don't worry about what these people are saying.At the rate this country is going and that's to the bottom.These people on here criticizing you ain't seen nothing yet.
The Occupy Movement was just an introduction as to how many people feel.People are going to reach a real satuaration point and the out come is not going to be pretty.
As far as the right to protest you're right the Constitution makes it very clear.Congress shall pass no law, and that goes for the Supreme Court also.Permits and Curfews really under the REAL CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT ARE NOT REQUIRED.
These people can babble all they want because like I said they ain't seen nothing yet!
Jack
Then you wont mind if I walk the streets with a hand gun on my person in plain sight or concealed without a Permit.
You wont mind if I go purchase a MA DEUCE(50 Cal Machine Gun) or a 20 MM Mini Gun. After all it says in the SECOND AMENDMENT
"....the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Notice the words "shall not be infringed". Now if my 2nd Amendment Rights can be limited so can you 1st. Amendment Rights.
Or are your Rights more important then my Rights? See the conflict? That is why we have laws and limits for Rights.
Jack,
The reason the lawmakers and their trolls wont listen is because they are the ones that would be hurt the worse if they weren't allowed to create those laws that undermine the constitution. I didnt list them in my post, but the permits and curfews were exactly what I was talking about when I said that local governments have written in laws restricting these kinds of peaceful demonstrations. You're 100 percent correct referring to the First amendment verbage. And just because the majority may not like something, it doesn't change a thing when it comes to others rights which are supposed to be protected by the constitution. If indeed it did, the United States would be no different than the countries we invade for doing the same thing.
slodon, it helps if you read the whole amendment and not just the part you want to abide by. Namely the part referring to the "militia" or, shall we say, police. No? You're an amateur "militiaman?" The hell you are.
Jack-Gloria- You forget about the part where other peoples rights are obstructed- Sure they can protest but there have been guidelines set up by society and laws there after that state how that should be done. And just remember -this is such a small part of the population that is protesting. They couldall fit inside a small football stadium if all lumped together. They can not violate private property owners rights also. You scream of freedom but only for those that you choose to have those rights and in the next breath you want to stomp on our second amendment rights as well. As with all the OWS crowd - And if the OWS crowd wanted to make a statement then get rid of your Iphone- I pads- laptops, ATM cards tents, propane heaters even the cigarettes they smoke- All those things provided by the Big Business, banks and Capitalists that they are protesting.. Hypocrites- If you want to make a statement move your protests to DC and in 2012 and remove the biggest fraud in us history from the white house. And as a second point I saw the ads today the the unions are paying $470.00 a week for people to be protesters- I guess if one thing comes from the OWS movement- some people got jobs
Freedom of Assembly Clause restrictions
The right to assemble is not an absolute right. There are some restrictions on this right as there are with other rights. The right to assemble is not as strongly protected by the government as other rights, such as the freedom of speech. This is because groups that assemble often do so, not with just speech, but with some type of conduct, such as picketing, protesting, marching or gathering in a park, which may disrupt the peace.
The courts have ruled that, while it is the responsibility of the government to protect the people's right to assemble, it is also the government's responsibility to keep the peace. Because of this, the courts have allowed governments to make reasonable restrictions on the time, place and manner of these assemblies. The government may place restrictions on the right to assemble that will maintain law and order, facilitate traffic, protect private property and reduce noise congestion.
http://www.revolutionary-war-and-beyond.com/freedom-of-assembly-clause.html#ixzz1cHs37Gka
Hunter
I refer you to the most recent Supreme Court Decision concerning the 2nd Amendment. For that matter ANY Supreme Court Decision concerning the 2nd Amendment. Your Militia argument has been shot down on several occasions. I left out the first part just to point out that Congress can not INFRINGE on the 2nd Amendment just as Congress shall make no law in the 1st Amendment. SEE???
So it is OK to LIMIT MY 2nd Amendment RIGHTS BUT NOT YOUR FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS?? What is your justification for your position?? May I remind you that my 2nd Amendment Rights protect your 1st Amendment Rights.
Gloria
The Supreme Court doesnt pass laws, try again.
Does that include those derivative's market dealers? You know, those 1%'ers that sold toxic debt to unsuspecting institutions all around the world and played the lead role in wrecking world economies. Yeah, some real clean, law abiding citizens there.
But you have more disdain for the OWS crowd, how bizarre.
SoNotRight, it's just as bizarre that those here also ignore the fact that their wealth is being redistributed by the feds and banks to shore up the European banks and markets and there is nothing they can do about it heh heh. And another thing, while those who hate OWS people are busy here, they are being screwed there LOL. At least the OWS people are good for a distraction while their money is being stolen heh heh.
Guess I'm not sure how to describe it but many seem to favor a form of capitilistic socialism heh heh. Don't know what else to call it LOL. It also seems they don't seem to mind giving their money away in that manner either as I've yet to see any on those threads commenting about it heh heh.
canoworms, the term you're looking for is "mixed economy". Some capitalism, some socialism, it's been the U.S. model from day one. The pure form of either is flawed.
If a bulldozer trashes the tents people in an "occupy movement" were staying in and the news media is only allowed to take pictures of the aftermath, it would seem like a lot of dirty people were just camping out. Maybe that was the plan that kept the news media out so that only the ugly was left. I assume we and future generations of Americans will pay for the mess the banks made, too. But when it comes to the bulldozed remains of a demonstration it is just too much to bear?
And when a city closes a park from the protestors and plans to build a big building there to make sure no protestors will have that dirt to stand on again, you may call it Progress. I call it a travesty. We all have a right to our own concepts and beliefs.
I just hate trolls that laugh at the poor and the sick. I certainly never claimed to be an authority on fairness, but when the direction a nation is headed is clear for all to see, then I will salute when someone stands up and says something that may need to be heard.
If I was the politician that was elected to represent the people, I would want to think I was doing the best for the most, not becoming a servant of the rich and powerful. Isn't it funny how politicians will vote themselves a raise while raising taxes on those who can least afford it. I have seen the rich and they are just more ruthless than most. I don't think that is necessarily bad. But I wouldn't want to look in the mirror every morning and ask myself if I thought I was good. And if I was a bad politician, I should expect dissatisfied people to visit my lawns now and then to remind me who I am working for.
Tell you what, if the fat cats that supported and profited from the lax regulations and weak oversight during the last 10 years agree to clean up the economic mess they dumped on us, I'll gladly go clean up the mess in the NY park myself. Of course that's one promise I'll never have to worry about living up to; those people never clean up their messes.
The OWS movement is not fading but becoming more organized. Hats off to the courage of these people, young and old, who are devoting their time and energy to call attention to our corrupt nation. Stay tuned it's not over.
Where is the ACLU?
They are hiding. They know that there isn't any case against the Police or City Gov'ts.
There out of money
So much for the Bill of Rights. It's sad that our most sacred document could last 222 years of war and depression, only to finally fall to Big Money and greed.
I'll repeat for you Toasty what I said to Jack earlier.
Then you wont mind if I walk the streets with a hand gun on my person in plain sight or concealed without a Permit.
You wont mind if I go purchase a MA DEUCE(50 Cal Machine Gun) or a 20 MM Mini Gun. After all it says in the SECOND AMENDMENT
"....the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Notice the words "shall not be infringed". Now if my 2nd Amendment Rights can be limited so can you 1st. Amendment Rights.
Or are your Rights more important then my Rights? See the conflict? That is why we have laws and limits for Rights.
slodon
What a lame attempt to justify the destruction of the first amendment.
Just how am I justifying anything like that? I'm just pointing out that all Rights have limits. And we all have to abide those limits. Now how is the First Amendment more important then the 2nd. or 4th. or 24th.? They are all equal and they all have limits. Now I can say that the 2nd Amendment guarantees the rest of the Amendments and show justification for that view. Now tell me how the First Amendment is the most important above all others.
I suggest that you look up the SCOTUS decisions on the limits First Amendment Rights. Did you ever hear of Libel or Slander Laws?? How about Unlawful Assembly?? Look them up and learn a thing or two.
FREE YOUR MIND AND YOUR ASS WILL FOLLOW
It really did sound like you were bragging about the First Amendment being dismantled. Perhaps a better analogy is in order.
And what specific law was being disobeyed? And how does that law supercede the Right to Assembly?
Why dont you try assembling in the Oval Office, its public property isnt it, there shouldnt be any restrictions against assembling there. Give it a try and see how far you get, all you have to do is explain your First Amendment rights to the Secret Service.
slodon, I see the point you are trying to make. However I would love to see you walking the streets fully armed. That would mean that everyone else could and most likely would be. The second someone draws their weapon, there would be 20 more drawn on them.
Yeah Steve, a park is EXACTLY like the Oval Office.
I thought your first amendments rights existed everywhere, at least thats what the libs keep telling us. Try that Oval Office thing and let me know how it works out for you.
PMagoo
Yeah I know what you mean. I wouldn't do that anyway. I know my responsibilities and limits to my rights. And that would not be the responsible thing to do. As far as my analogy using the 2nd Amendment and the 1st Amendment. I used that because I knew it would draw a response. And I couldn't think of another Amendment that has so many limits and responsibilities associated with it.
Toasty
Every City has Ordinances that require Permits for things like Parades,Park use,and yes ASSEMBLIES.
Our government praised Egypt when they took to the streets but when we do it all of a sudden were all trash.We should take to the streets of D.C. and demand all of congress and the senate to step down.
Any chance the Egypt was praised because they overthrew a dictator? Of course not.
Geez, maybe the Second amendment was about tattoos Slodon. It doesn't say anything about handguns at all. It just says to bear arms. Maybe that is a goodwill gesture, meant to show we have no weapon while we parlay. Why does everyone grab on to the idea that bearing arms is necessary during peacetime anyway? Are you so afraid of death that you must arm yourself in defense of your fears? Maybe bearing arms means having a cool tattoo to show off and it kinda breaks the ice and starts a useful conversation, not one hidden in fear and innuendo. Handguns have one reason for existence and one alone...to kill man. A rifle may be used for hunting, but how many deer will you get with a handgun (unless you have the game tied down...like Palin and Cheney prefer). I never believed guns were the answer to anything that a sane man could live with.
What's with all the macho guntalk on this topic anyway? We were talking about the rights of protestors. If your state passes a law to allow you to walk around and flaunt your gun of inadequacy, be my guest. I have no problems with it. The question is whether you would feel like a better man if you really used it, or if you feel stronger having your warm gun and bible to sleep with at night to protect you from the werewolves. hahaha, when you close your eyes, they are getting closer......never close your eyes. A gun in the hands of a sleeping man is of no use if you are asleep. See how stupid it all gets....and then a child finds the guns and plays bang,bang...maybe not with your gun, but with someone elses who is even less responsible. Make Love, Not War. No war was ever won with guns...it was always resolved when the leaderships came to an agreement and the guns were laid down.
Jack -If you ever did a little reading you would know that our founders foresaw many things and that is why the constitution was written- Why should you own a gun- Simple- so that the People have the power to protect them selves from invaders both foreign and domestic- Your choice if you don't own one- but don't tread on my right to do so. And wars are won with guns- WWII and WWII- We had the bigger and better ones so we won. The only reason we can't win now is because we fight politically correct wars- No one can ever win when politicians are involved. Everyone looses.If we did not you would be speaking German or Japanese right now. Don't be so Naive
Send them all back to their Mom and Dad and maybe they can finally look for a job and get to work. Washington is thee only place for an "Occupy" movement and these jokers never figured it out.
hey let them go to washington seems to be the only place where employment has
expanded since OBOMBO got elected! big government! go ask your liberal leader
for a frickin' government gravy train job!
Every picture I se of OWS is some dirty looking -unshaven long haired 20 year old who looks like he just climbed out of the garbage can with some overweight dirty girl- Where is the diverse crowd that everyone speaks of? The guys in business suites or at least a guy who looks like some one who has a job supporting them- the well groomed wife who has on her make up and is dressed well- If everyone supports them then everybody sure picked sad looking representatives.A small group of dirty kids.
OWS is the spark that will eventually bring the "diverse crowds" you speak of into the mix. It takes time to start a movement, the millions of Americans affected by the issues at the root of OWS can't be mobilized in an instant. Make no mistake, these protests are helping people see what those in power are turning the country into and I don't think many are too pleased with what that is, which is of course a plutocratic military dictatorship
Kelldon, don't you know there is a reason why you are seeing only the ratty looking college kids? The corporate controlled media is being very selective with just what kind of pictures, interviews and news stories they will show! If you don't check out alternative sources, you can be expected to be spoonfed propaganda for the corporations who want us continuing to mindlessly consume why they destroy our economy and our constitution and bill of rights.