It used to be a "free" country. If you don't like it then don't look at it.

I love it, Christmas is about shopping, Jesus ditched the holiday long ago, before it was even a holiday I suspect.

I am an artist, so I am open to free speech in art. But, really, this was not about the "commercialism of Christmas" Those were atheists and they could care less about Christmas commercialism. What I think is sad is that Santa has nothing to do with the Christians' Christmas, Jesus Christ's birthday. "Santa", Saint Nicholas, was just a good person who distributed gifts to the poor. Instead of making a valid statement about religion or commercialism. They just spit on the last good symbol of modern Christmas, not to mention what small children will feel when seeing that display. It was better to not have any holiday displays than allow that trash on a court house lawn.

Looks to me like he was a "Drunk Santa Leaning on a Cross"... That's appropriate for that area

Crushedu--you should do a little praying for yourself. In a country like the US, based on freedom of religion, we don't need YOUR religious imagery forced down our throats.

As someone who worships Santa, who died on the cross, I also demand to see my imagery in front of a courthouse which I helped pay for with my taxes.

If a person believes they are a atheist, so what it is a free country; however why must they insult the beliefs of those that are not atheists, are they upset that the vast majority do not agree with their beliefs, do not insult my beliefs because of your lack of a belief in a supernatural being .

Who, really, is harmed by the deplorable and disgusting? Is it not those who create and display those things radically offense to most people?

If a poll were taken, I expect most of the good people of Loudoun Co. would say this display is offensive.

This is what angers me about athiests... that's fine that you have your beliefs and i respect that, but don't be vulgar and crap on my beliefs. Erecting this monument will not make me say, well maybe i should rethink things... all it's going to do is make me angry which is all they are really looking for is a reaction out of people. disgusting.

I believe in Santachrist!!!!!

OK, let me get this straight. You advertising your religion with a manger scene is just an expression of your beliefs, while their display is an insult to yours and must be removed. Have I got that right?

Look up "hypocrisy" in the dictionary.

As for the "vast majority" not sharing their beliefs, 33% of the world's population are Christian. That means that 67% are not!

Not religious myself, but I would say that whoever did this was hell-bent (pun intended) on offending others, and I don't condone that one bit. If you're going to make such a "statement", place it in your own front yard, not on the lawn of the local courthouse. Either way, it probably wouldn't have stood for very long. As a previous poster pointed out, why subject little kids to stuff like this?

Besides, I think it's just plain tacky and in poor taste.

You are all perfectly free to have the opinion that the display is offensive. The important question, though, is this:

Do you support the religious freedom and the freedom of speech of the people that put up the skeleton Santa display?

Everyone on earth supports freedom of speech and freedom of religion when they agree with the beliefs that are being expressed. The test of whether or not you truly support freedom is whether or not you will defend someone's right to say something you find completely disgusting.

These people are right beside Washington DC. You can call them Virginians if you like, but really, Virginia wasn't care about the people up there. The real Virginia is further south, and actively ignores anything close to DC.

However, if I had my kids with me and saw such a display, it would be the time to start educating them about America, and the price of freedom. We must always endure things we don't agree with, so that we are free to live our lives as we please. Sometimes the price seems high, but that just means it is worth it, even more.

my2cent$

Not religious myself, but I would say that whoever did this was hell-bent (pun intended) on offending others, and I don't condone that one bit. If you're going to make such a "statement", place it in your own front yard, not on the lawn of the local courthouse. Either way, it probably wouldn't have stood for very long. As a previous poster pointed out, why subject little kids to stuff like this?

Besides, I think it's just plain tacky and in poor taste.

That's a perfectly fine position to take as long as you don't want to allow *ANY* religious displays on courthouse property. If you allow only certain beliefs (i.e. those that you think are not 'completely disgusting') to be displayed, then your position is unconstitutional.

Art is hard to interpret. If commercialism was the message, it was poorly executed. I would have put a nativity scene behind a small forest of "Sale!" signs with a manequin trying to get through to see Jesus. That would have been a less offensive message than a skeletal Santa pretending to be Jesus.

What atheists need to realize is that bashing someone's religion is as bad (or worse) as someone coming up to you and saying, "I hope your mother dies during a rape." It's just not cool.

@Styro

Interesting art concept. That would be cool.

As an atheist, I don't think that displays like this do anything to help the perception of atheists, nor do I condone desecrating someone's religious symbol in order to make a point.

The question is...do Christians feel the same way? Were you just as outraged by the pastor who planned to burn a copy of the Quran? If you believe that the way that these people chose to display their beliefs on public property was inappropriate, do you also believe that representing other religious beliefs is also inappropriate?

Belief (or lack thereof) should be a personal endeavor and each person should be allowed to worship (or not) in their own way without persecution from others. If you believe in a God, please, by all means, feel free to display it in your home...or even in your front yard. However, I don't want your religion thrown in my face at a public building which is supposed to represent ALL of its citizens, just as I will not throw my lack of religion in yours.

@Junicon - I think I'd rather invoke "separation of church and state" and leave the constitutional stuff to the layers.

We cool?

Toasty - Oh my Sagan, a plastic skeleton! EVERYBODY PANIC!

Do you mean the same panic that goes on over the Nativity? Oh my goodness! A plastic sheep and people sitting in a barn!

Both are stupid.

Crushedu, an interesting handle,

and you would be arrested by the police for damage to my property and trespassing. Freedom of speech protects things like this. The only reason it was able to be taken down with no consequences was because it was on the court houses property. If it was on private property whoever did it would be arrested and maybe fined.

If for all these Christians, who are hurt by this rather comical display, its Ok to draw cartoons to offend Muslims, and they are fine with burning the Quran and books of other religions as well as belittling anyone who is not a Christian, then this is next to nothing, it hurts when it strikes home :) . I find these people extremely cowardly who hide behind the cloak of freedom of speech and intentionally hurt feelings of other people, however in the case of Christians if you have been doing it all along then suck-it-up and smile, like you tell others FREEDOM OF SPEECH!!!!!!! I am all for no religious displays on any government lands. Keep religion out of government or become a theocracy.

saxon

If a person believes they are a christian, so what it is a free country; however why must they insult the beliefs of those that are not christians, are they upset that many do not agree with their beliefs, do not insult my beliefs because of your belief in a supernatural being .

Styro

What atheists need to realize is that bashing someone's religion is as bad (or worse) as someone coming up to you and saying, "I hope your mother dies during a rape." It's just not cool.

so it's OK for one religion to bash another so long as it isn't yours getting bashed? It's OK to PUSH YOUR religion down someones throat (in their face) but not ok for them to return the view? Which "flavor" of Christianity is OK to push on a Buddhist or Muslim or Hindu?

What ALL religions/people need to realize is that each PERSON has the right to THEIR own beliefs. Everyone is going to be offended by someone else idea of what is "art." I'd prefer NO displays on public property. Yes most public schools recognize Christmas and put up some form of display.... Isn't that promoting a religion? Isn't that offending some portion of the population? The display was obviously meant as a form of artistic expression. Whether you agree or not, it was their right to put it up and yours to ignore it. Everyone had the same opportunity to put up a display, first 10 got to do it.

carianne.

Too sane for the vine.

Kayner, when a nativity scene is on government property, it's a violation of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. That's what the "panic" is about. It can be remedied to an extent by allowing art pieces from other religions, as well as the lack of religions, as was done on this courthouse.

Jesus wasn't born on December 25th; he wasn't even born in December. I just find it ironic that free speech isn't free when it comes to anything remotely dismissive of Christianity.

I'm all for freedom of speech, but in a country where we are so worried about offending people that we ban the poinsettia cause it may offend, why should we then allow somebody to obviously aim to offend people by making skeleton Santa nailed to a cross? People have a right to their opinion, but they also should practice a little respect for other people's faiths and beliefs. Unfortunately it seems that many people think it is the right thing to do when they trash Christianity or any other religion. You don't agree with the religion, and I get that. But have a little class. The real moral to this story is that some people have no class. People of faith and the faithless need to learn respect.

I'm not a religious person, but I respect people and their faith, and it doesn't hurt me to have to see expressions of their faith. I'd be happy to go to a mosque, church, or temple and at the very least, gain an understanding of how other people see the world. What more beautiful of a thing could there be than to get to know people on a deeper level by taking a few steps in their shoes.

I'm all for freedom of speech, but...

I realize this probably won't be a popular sentiment, but I think the display is hilarious. And, yes, I'm well aware of the fact that I have a warped and irreverent sense of humor, so please spare me the well-intentioned - though ultimately condescending - lamentations and prayers.

Symbols are not inherently religious, holy, divine, sacred etc. . . . they're just symbols that people invest with such qualities - all too often as an easy substitute for the more difficult task of living according to ones given faith. In other words, lighten the hell up. Peace.

I really dont get why people are so anal about the whole "dont shove your beliefs down my throat" thing. Christmas doesnt bother or offend anyone and chances are ur full of crap if it offends you.. its about the joy of the holiday, family etc.. something thats been around way before Christmas. Its about the spirit of the holiday more than it is about worshiping Jay-C.

This is exactly why I cant really label myself an atheist although I do not believe in god nor religion, because this groups me with the same lame, self righteous dbags that religion seems to attract. I mean how can the parallel be more clear? What ever happened to "live and let live" or "doing you" to be more relevant?

Jesus was conceived at that time, that's why it's celebrated. he was born in Sept.

This headline is misleading. This isn't an atheist display it is display by an artist who has a very different intrepetation of the Christmas than many of us do. This was not promoted by an atheist group as statement of their beliefs. As an atheist myself, I am tried of being linked with such inflammsyoty ideas of Christmas. Did NBC run an article that states atheists promote understanding and knowledge as they did recently in Pennsylvania when they protested their exclusion from the holiday displays by creating a tree of knowledge that highlights all religious belief and non-belief() -No instead they chose to higlight this piece of work because it was controversy. If the artist had been Christian would the headline read _Christian Display? No. Please don't confuse atheists with one artist's idea.

For everyone who has bashed an atheist in this comments. I would like to say most of us celebrate the holidays the way Charles Dickens expressed it in Christmas Carol - With family and friends and with an emphasis on the promoting the betterment of mankind.

Is there nothing worse in this world than an overly opinionated, throw it in yer-face, evangelical atheist?

I would like to see the hard core atheists comments if this was a spoof of Mohammad! This "artist" would be in hiding and would most likely be on a Islamic "Video" meeting his/her end expressing their 1st Amendment right.

Why do people like to antagonize a religion that will only look the other way and not really respond? Why doesn't the artist really have the "balls" to poke fun at the other two major religion's?

I know why he/she doesn't.... FEAR FOR THEIR LIFE! Can you say HYPOCRITE?

I once believed in Santa as kid. Not sure seeing Santa hanging or nailed to a cross is very appropriate for young children to see, but that's my opinion.

Fortunately, as I got older and opened my mind a bit, Santa, the Easter Bunny, the Flying Spaghetti Monster and any other imaginary friends or beings became less important to me, and yet I still lead a happy, moral, caring life. Imagine that....

Freedom of speech? Would you feel the same about a display of a black man hanging from a noose?

If atheists want to include a display of their beliefs, fine. How about a big zero?

Who did Mary REALLY have sex with to finally have Jesus if Joseph was not the father. I think they should go on the Murry Povich show and find out. "YOU ARE THE FATHER"!! God and Jesus are not "Santa Claus"!! Pray all you want and wish all you want. If Jesus was king of the Jews then we are all Jewish. Jesus is dead, they nailed that fanatic to the cross and Santa Claus and his reindeer were shot down by the Iranians a long time ago. Open your eyes to what is REAL folks. Innocent, little, naive children believe in fairytales I would hope that mature adults would be over that by now.

Why doesn't the artist really have the "balls" to poke fun at the other two major religion's?

I know why he/she doesn't.... FEAR FOR THEIR LIFE! Can you say HYPOCRITE?

Interesting theory, flash8. Just a shot in the dark here, but do you think it may also have something to do with the fact that the "other two major religions" don't celebrate Christmas?

I disagree with your comparison between my skin color and someone's choice of religion. I was born this way. Christians were not. And, unless you can source a historical instance of Santa being hung on a cross, I feel your comparison is unfair in that it compares things that did happen with things that didn't.

I'm an atheist, and I don't feel as if I need any sort of public display in honor of my beliefs. Quite frankly, I don't care if you know what I believe or not. I would think things would improve significantly if Christians felt the same way. It's not as if the display was thrown out there. It was a counter to the constant, unending stream of Christian advertisements that always arrives at this time of year.

I have never had an Atheist at my door trying to convert me to their belief or compelling me from the TV screen to accept their "amazing facts". Thank you, Atheists; I respect YOU too.

How is a manger secene 'assaulting' the sensibilities of the athiest? Christians get the most vitriol from Athiests. I don't put up billboards proclaiming athiests as 'ignorant and foolish'. Personally I think every attack of such kind can be claimed as dicriminatory and slanderous. It's qalso funny that the only post marked as 'collapsed by the community' aren'ty the attacks on Christian beliefs but instead a prayer for someone's soul. Now who's biased?

The divine parts about the holy ghost and god and all that stuff is fairytales, but Jesus was a real dude that did exist, had himself a lot of followers and was quite liberal compared to the "establishment" that was around (Jews and Romans). Obviously, they were inconvenienced by him and decided to get rid of him - just like the thousands of unlucky political activists before and after him. The Jews that didnt support him remained the Jews, and the Jews that did support him because the Christians (still the Jews), so yeahh not sure what youre trying to get at here. Oh yea, his supporters loved him so much that they decided to worship him even in death and thus the legend was born.. but everything else is pretty much bs..

How is a manger secene 'assaulting' the sensibilities of the athiest? Christians get the most vitriol from Athiests. I don't put up billboards proclaiming athiests as 'ignorant and foolish'

Nope, but the whole story of Christianity is based on the implication that I will burn in hell for eternity if I don't believe what Christians believe. Besides, you don't put up billboards stating as such, but have you ever sat through a church service? The hour and a half is generally geared around explaining why believing what you believe is superior to believing what I believe, with a little bit of "you must be miserable because you don't believe", "you'll believe one day" and "you're immoral and need us to help you be moral" mixed in for good measure.

Funny how some folks get ticked off about a skeleton Santa on a cross "degrading" their holiday, but boycott stores that try to recognize others with "Happy Holidays."

The commercialism is what's truly ruining the value of the holiday, and they're actually encouraging that while stifling commentary on it.

david bion

Jesus was conceived at that time, that's why it's celebrated. he was born in Sept.

There's another part of the story I questioned while told not to do so. (Question things that is, how dare I !?!?)

So let's see, this Mary girl, had no sex, but still had a baby. amazing! But yet, the baby was conceived in December and born in October. You'd think a miracle might happen quicker than the normal? God, the guy who created the universe (with the earth in the center back then) in 7 days, couldn't speed up the baby making process a bit for his own kid? Hey, just asking...

So then I ask, when did we know Jesus was Jesus? What happened between when he was born, and when he became the famous guy you worship? How did we go back in time and learn his history? What did he do as a toddler, or teen?

Who wrote the bible, and when? How many years after Jesus was crucified was the "new" bible written?

And my two favorite questions that really got the nuns and priests upset were: If we started with Adam and Eve, they had two sons, who did the two sons mate with to grow our civilization? Bad mom, huh?

The other was about the Noah guy and his ark. Hmmmm, two of every species on one boat, yet the lions and tigers never ate their natural prey. Amazing will power, wouldn't you say?

No wonder my knuckles and wrists hurt so much after Sunday school, I brought logic into the conversation. Can't have that, huh? But they still couldn't beat me into submission, I won! Wooooo whooooooo!

het to say it dAt crAzy but then don't go to church. I don't attend athiest meetings, seams to me you'd be going out of your way to be offended. But, I digress, If you're Athiest...Great! If your Muslim...Fine! If you worship a footstool in your backyard...Fantastic! But I'm not making fun of you or your beliefs (which is Non-Tolerant, and discriminatory), why do so many athiests feel the need to validate their beliefs by denegrating mine?

careful neopolaris, talk like that will get your comment collapsed!!

All atheists are hypocrites. Why any of the Christmas traditions would bother them that they feel the need to do something like this is beyond me. Who cares what someone's religious beliefs are except when it involves killing people for not believing. The hypocrites pick on Jesus who teaches peace and love because they know Christians are an easy target. The day I see one of these hypocrite atheists burn the Koran or make fun of Allah in public then maybe I will take them seriously. However, their free thinking beliefs and activism obviously stop short of being blown up or beheaded by Islamic loons.

Oh yeah, how is that Jesus was a pale skinned, blue eyed, blonde guy in the middle of all the dark skinned, dark haired, brown eye folks?

No wonder they got rid of him, even back then he was an infadel! Holy sh!t, now I understand.

Trust_Verify: The whole "shoved down our throats" thing is really just a stupid way of saying you'd prefer not to see something. Two guys walk down the street holding hands and someone complains that homosexuality is being "shoved down" their throat like a gay you-know-what. I went on vacation as a Christian in Dubai, and at no point did I complain that Islam was being shoved down my throat. It's the predominant culture there, and you accept that the mosque down the street is going to wake you up warbling at 4:20 in the morning. Live with it. You can't expect a population to hide any and all signs of their existence because you don't feel it applies to you. Walk into the courthouse and ignore the freakin' nativity scene on the lawn. Or bet yet, keep yer butt clean and out of court.

And Reed Rolai, if you can call Jesus a "fanatic", then you evidently are little more than a walking bag of stupid opinions with little or no historical context or supporting reasons. You just want to be mad at things. No matter what you think of Christianity, Jesus was undoubtedly one of the purest spirits (in my Christian opinion, THE purest) that ever gained public attention. He was against judgmental attitudes and opposed to strict fundamental religious interpretation and oppression. Why are you so eager to label him a fanatic?

I couldn't admit the holes in my own theories all the while not researching and ignoring the truth of the Bible.

How do you explain the holes in the theory of the Bible?

het to say it dAt crAzy but then don't go to church. I don't attend athiest meetings, seams to me you'd be going out of your way to be offended. But, I digress, If you're Athiest...Great!

As I stated, I'm not offended. Actually, this post is regarding the Christians who were offended by the display. However, I do feel that your claim that Christians don't call atheists "ignorant and foolish" is patently false. There are millions of Christian billboards that do just that.

why do so many athiests feel the need to validate their beliefs by denegrating mine?

I'm not sure what you're referring to. How does Santa Claus on a cross denegrate your beliefs? And why is it that Christians are able to go overboard this time of year, but one atheist creating a display causes an uproar?

Why any of the Christmas traditions would bother them that they feel the need to do something like this is beyond me.

Like put a skeleton Santa on a cross? What's so bad about that? Besides, do you have a problem with Christians borrowing traditions from pagans and calling them Christmas? It seems to me it is simply correcting a historical wrong.

I agree--if you don't like the display, don't look at it.

But my husband, who is an atheist and whose favorite holiday is Christmas, would probably look at something like this display, laugh, and leave a burger under Santa, with the note: "You could use a few more of these!"

Let me just bottom-line the entire religious debate -- I don't know with any degree of certainty that God exists . . . . and neither do you.

Everything else is just politics and propaganda, so chill out, have an egg-nog and enjoy your friends & family. Happy Holidays!

Dat,

1. please post a single picture of a billboard that calls athiests "ignorant" or "stupid"

2. my comments regarding the denegration of my beliefs is echoed by the posts on this wall. Count the number of Posts that go out of their way to do so. The issue I have is that the athiest in question, went out of their way to do so near an important holiday of my religion. and I also would not complain if it displayed some feeling about what their beliefs actually were instead of simply trying to mock mine. If you think they did not go out of their way to denegrate Christmas, and did not time their display appropriately then I've got a bridge to sell you.

As far as adults go, yeah, ya don't like it, you don't have to look.

But there are tons of kids out there at a certain age who actually BELIEVE in Santa. How do you tell a kid not to look at something like that? I guess you just tell the child what we all probably have noted to ourselves already, that this is was a immature display designed to be hurtful. . .and that it SHOULD be ignored. Is the point, the commercialization of the holiday that we're already all very much aware of, a dead horse that really needs more beating at the expense of the emotional trauma that children may suffer seeing this crude and ham-fisted attempt at 'art'?

Please provide one atheist billboard that called anybody "ignorant or stupid". I won't be holding my breath.

1... http://www.net-burst.net/quips/punchy.htm From Net-Burst.net. It's a list posted by a Christian of new slogans that churches can use to get their point across. Such relevant suggestions include:

Questioning God? He made the brain cells you think with.

Jesus: There is no substitute

Jesus believes in you

Don't miss life's best. Find God.

Jesus: Source of all Beauty

Life begins with Jesus

All of these imply that I am ignorant, or at very least missing something from my life, regarding my lack of belief in God.

http://christianblogs.christianet.com/1121437327.htm (a place for Christians to exchange ideas for their marquees)

God does not believe in atheists, Therefore they do not exist.

A-Theist: A-Believer in God.

http://www.webtothumb.com/christian-marquee-sayings.html This site is a compilation of other sites which offer the same service. You can view the links for yourself, but suffice to say, there are plenty stating that atheists are ignorant, at best, wrong, at worst, and stupid, at face value.

2. Echoed by what posts? There are just as many posts here that are denegrating my beliefs, for example,

All atheists are hypocrites.

Athetists do things like this, not as a statement, but actually as an extreme personal cry. They are mad at God, sadly... They are confounded and confused about all manner of things they have been told, or misled to believe through their lives. They need to take their issues to a more personal level, so to speak. I used to base my beliefs on science, mainly because I thought I was too smart for anything like God. Nothing really made sense. I couldn't admit the holes in my own theories all the while not researching and ignoring the truth of the Bible. It's amazing. Truly amazing. God isn't pop-culture, but it is reality.

I'm an atheist, but respect the right of others to believe in any fairy tale they choose.

However, I find this display distasteful because the intention is clearly to insult Christians. To me this is no different then a Bible (or Koran) thumpers getting in my face an forcing their views on me.

When I see a nativity seen (in a private or public place) I'm not offended. I also enjoy having an intelligent conversation with those of faith because I always learn something (even if I personally don't believe in a higher being, especially a Judeo-Christian version).

The display was more akin to art and I definately see the connection to the "commercialism" of Christmas, but it would be better placed as art in a proper setting becuase provoking a class of folks because of their faith, or lack of it, is not good for anyone.

The views of these particular atheists don't represent those of most of the atheists I know who may poo poo religion - just not in an insulting and provocative manner.

Hey Saxon, if you like it or not, it goes BOTH ways, not just yours. So, hush!

It really doesn't matter if you want to belief in God or not the truth is that he is real; and if you don't repent and you don't believe in the father, the son, and the holy trinity you will not have eternal life in heaven. I know for a fact that in their final hours many non believers will become believers. Jesus is the reason for the season.

@dAt crAzy bOk. How do you explain the holes in the theory of the Bible, you ask?

You are going to find it hard to believe, but there aren't any. Here's something else you may fine outrageous. ready? Modern science has been over 1000 years behind the Bible consistantly through the ages. It's still happening today. They can replicate or make a facsmile, but that's it. Just as written. To each it's own kind. We are not animals. We didn't evolve from apes. That's just one example. The Bible said we floated in space, as a sphere, hundreds and hundreds of years before the first "modern" scientist FINALLY figured it out. There are so many examples of this, and also so many scientists who do believe in a creator.

At least THEY search... as for denegrating YOUR beliefs? pffft. You hardly have any let alone any original thought. Your arguments are childlike, however. Offended? tough... Time to UNLEARN and grow up.

So you stick by the "created by God about 6,000 years ago" story, yet you don't find holes in the story? Right on. That's your right. Don't call it like it is just iron-clad and set in stone, though. Because it isn't.

At least THEY search... as for denegrating YOUR beliefs? pffft. You hardly have any let alone any original thought. Your arguments are childlike, however. Offended? tough... Time to UNLEARN and grow up.

At least you admit you denegrate my lack of beliefs. Unlearn? You mean I shouldn't follow everything I have been spoonfed my whole life but haven't seen any proof for? I already did that, when I "converted" to atheism.

Nope, not offended. We've covered that repeatedly already. Please explain how my arguments are childlike. I kind of thought the whole "your beliefs are childish" was pretty childlike myself.

And your evidence of his existence is exactly what, Neo?

The truth is that the Bible has been disproven time and again by science.

This has definitely exposed the over reaction crowd on here. People apparently find this "disgusting" "horrific" "Insulting". Either you have lived a very very sheltered life because I can not for the life of me work out your emotions welling up because of a bit of balsa wood, cloth and plastic bones.

Atheists arguing with christians, christians arguing back, its all rather pointless. Atheists let them be, christians practice what you preach, turn the other cheek and let them be.

@ Trisha29

I know for a fact that in their final hours many non believers will become believers.

This is true, it's defiantly hard to accept, or believe, that when you die that's it; nothing, blackness, no consciousness at all, no after life.

I myself, as a devout atheist, find it difficult to believe that when you die that's it. There's no guarantee that I won't "repent" in my final hours; although this would be highly hypocritical, something I find as distasteful as blind faith.

There may be an afterlife, there may not be an afterlife, but I'm pretty confident that it's not the heaven that we were taught of as children in bible school.

Besides, the thought of being in a heaven that my beloved Brittney Spaniel isn't allowed in is not a place I'd like to be.

Respectfully,

A long ago converted atheist........

Why is it that some need to try and offend or insult those who they disagree. I would have no problem if Atheist had a symbol or something they wanted to display for a winter solstice celebration, but why must some always mock and degrade what other peoples traditions and faith are? I am a believer and my neighbor is an atheist, but we get along fine because we "RESPECT" each others views without name calling or degrading. Christmas is a time of year all should get along regardless of views, yet some choose this time to try and make a point and cause divisiveness.

I dont care about this display one way or the other...but I dont see how the city/county could have left it up. Since the athiest crowd has been successful at preventing religeous scenes, such as the nativity, from being displayed on the grounds of public buildings then clearly a display advancing the religeious views of athiesm must also be banned. By using the courts to limit free speech and the free exercise of religeon the anthiests have also limited their own free speech and free exercise of their religeous views.

The Santa on the Cross was allowed because of a compromise. That is, Christians get to display nativity scenes, and 10 other scenes would also be displayed. Interestingly enough, the atheist display was the only display that was removed. But... it's the war on Christmas and Christian's beliefs. *shrug* I'm not too sure how the logic on that works.

@Toasty McGrath and anyone else: That's the big myth, the big lie. It's hasn't been even remotely disproven. Believe me...I am all about the truth. It's all I want anymore. I had to go look for myself to get it. Too much stuff is controlled and biased today to get it as a mainstream dish. Go look! And be wise. Don't go "googleing" for the first "how to disprove the Bible" link. Go for the good stuff. I promise you will be amazed. Google the scientists who have converted. Just be fair to yourself in your search. It is, after all, about you. Google the e-coli and look closely at how it is constructed. It has DESIGN, ok? You KNOW what that means. Design indicates a CREATOR. The ONLY creator who can make sense of the notion that, "...in the beginning there was nothing, which exploded..." I wish you well in your search. Just keep searching, for your sake.

Now that "Don't ask, don't tell" is no longer being used by the military, how about we just adopt it in our personal lives with regard to religion...at least that way it won't be used as a way to discrimate against a group of people. We can all just go about our day demeaning, disrespecting, and/or hating each other based on something OTHER than our religious (or non-religious) beliefs.

Carrieanne...yes I was very offended by the pastor who wanted to burn the Quran. And, as someone who celebrates Christmas, I love being told "Happy Hanukkah" "Merry Christmas" "Happy Kwanzaa" "Happy Holiday", etc. All of them mean one thing to me...the person saying it is wishing me well. I just wish everyone would understand that. This war over words, when it is really the spirit being conveyed, is ridiculous. With that in mind I would like to wish everyone on this message board a very Merry Christmas and hope that the spirit of the message is picked up on, rather than the words themselves.. :)

As for this piece of artwork....I somewhat have to agree with the fact that the spirit of the season HAS been crucified. Just read some of the posts on this message board.

People do have a right to their beliefs whether anyone else agrees or not, and they do have the right to express them with displays, etc. The courthouse opened up a can of worms by allowing various displays on their lawn. That being said......

The display is in poor taste and I would think quite upsetting to small children. It is sad that a lack of sensitivity will most likely result in a ban on all displays.

My simple question- what does Santa, the main figurehead revolving around Christmas (and this display) have to do with a 'Christian' holiday?

Especially considering the fact that there are aspects of religion that believe Santa is really an incarnation of Satan- explained in this link pretty well...

http://ecclesia.orb/truth/christmas.html

Now I don't prescribe to many, if any, religious views (for the religious apect of things) but from a christian standpoint (at least looking through the bible itself) that above link pretty much removes any aspect of 'Santa' from Christmas because of the negatives.

Neo, I have spent most of my adult life attempting to find the truth. That's what led me to atheism. I can't help but wonder if it is your truth you hope I find, or "the truth". Of course, in your mind, it seems they are one and the same.

Everyone on earth supports freedom of speech and freedom of religion when they agree with the beliefs that are being expressed. The test of whether or not you truly support freedom is whether or not you will defend someone's right to say something you find completely disgusting.

Defending THEIR right to say something is not my job - it's THEIRS! You can't seriously expect me to defend an atheist's right to ridicule my religious beliefs. Why should I??? Would THEY defend MY right to, say, preach on a street corner? Some might, while others would call that harassment and tell me I should do that in my own home, or in my Church, but not in public. You're right, the door does swing BOTH WAYS!

Was the display of a "Santa skeleton on a cross" harmful to Christians? Of course not. Was it insulting? ABSOLUTELY, and that was the whole point. But when someone puts up a manger display, they are doing it to remember what they consider the point of Christmas, NOT to insult an atheist. And really, the manger scene is about as harmful to atheists as "Santa skeleton" is to Christians - in other words, IT DOESN'T HURT THEM IN THE LEAST!!! So, atheists want equal time? Fine, go get it. You want respect? Be willing to respect others, at least enough to not be deliberately insulting. Don't want to listen to a preacher on a street corner, fine, don't listen - but don't interfere with MY right to listen!

@dAt crAzy bOk. Man, I totally get what you are saying. I've been on that side wondering if these wackjobs are secretly anniliasts or something. There are so many Christians that are going the wrong way, I'm sure it looks pretty bad. It doesn't change the world and what's happening though. If someone were to ask me, this is the time of sorrows. We are literally living in that age. The power structure of this world isn't as it appears. It's bad. Really bad and corrupted to the core. Believe me, this isn't something I want. But it doesn't change anything. There IS a conspiracy...and it's the same as it ever was. It's against Christ. Just go look at the patterns through history alone? It's virtually a never-ending theme... Listen, I understand your disbelief. I am only about 5 or so years into this, but there just isn't any doubt in my mind. Just brace yourself for some of the things that you discover. It can be uncomfortable relearning what reality actually is. It's all connected... that's about all I can say. I have hope for ya! It actually is good news -I know that sounds cliche...

The whole point of the courthouse decorations was to display different ways to celebrate the holiday season. This was in NO WAY a celebration, just an attempt to crap on Christian beliefs. I still don't understand why anyone's beliefs in a higher being, be it God, Allah, Buddah, etc. is insulting to non-believers. I don't care what anyone chooses to believe or dis-believe. This is a free country and religious freedom is in our constitution. But, I also believe that is also says something about freedom from persecution which is exactly what this person was doing with this display. Ridicule of others beliefs is also unconstitutional. So please don't crap on my beliefs and I won't crap on your choice not to believe. Simple as that!

I was raised Christian. I was in church every Sunday and Wednesday. If the doors were open, we were there. I don't proclaim that my atheistic beliefs are right. I'm actualyl an agnostic, but I know what I believe, and it is what I believe. That is, atheism.

I have read nearly every major manuscript from every major religion, including the bible, the tao, the book of mormon, the satanic verses... heh, just kidding on that one... anyways, I've read and studied it all. I'm open to learning. I love to learn. I just haven't seen anything to convince me that there is some being out there who created everything, and has an interest in our day-to-day lives.

Like, take for example your e-coli example. It is just so complex that it just had to be created, right? Well, "it just has to be" isn't enough validation, in my book. God just has to be there, because he just has to be? That's not any sort of proof. That's just extrapolating what you know about this world to the entire reason for our being. It doesn't work that way, in my opinion. I mean... I could come up with a million "out-of-this-world" reasons to explain why things are the way things are. I don't know why I would accept one "out-of-this-world" reason on blind faith without any proof than I would any other "out-of-this-world" explanation.

Like I said, Neo: present your evidence.

I am a Christian, and I LOVE the display!!! I whole heartedly agree with the man "atheist or not". I think he was making a statement of: "The TRUE MEANING OF CHRIST MAS is GONE" Gone to the all mighty dollar.

It is sad, and I think that he should have the right to have it ANYWHERE he got permission to put it, the kids could have gotten a good lesson on the meaning of what he was trying to say.

People its not about the biggest present, or how much you spent, it is about celebrating the Kings birth. About rejoicing in the love abundant around us. Stop and take another look at the picture. (well other than it looking like a drunk santa) see what he was trying to say. Even "santa" would agree with this man. Even his meaning (Santa's that is) is GONE.

Instead of buying expensive gifts for your kids and family do something different. Adopt a family, go to the local school, they will know what families are needy this year and buy some gifts for them. I WILL GUARENTEE you that they will enjoy the gift better than your loved one who knows if they didn't get it for Christ mas they will for their birthday. (oh you know you will!)

ADOPT A NEEDY FAMILY FOR CHRISTMAS, LETS BRING BACK TO LIFE THIS SKELTON SANTA!!

O M G people SHUT THE F*CK UP!!!!!

@Dat Crazy. I was referring to the structure of the e-coil. NOT that it is complicated. You misintrepertated what I said... Being complicated certainly is NOT an indication that God exists. I was referring to the STRUCTURE alone. It simply could not have evolved as such. BTW, were you taught to capitalize proper names? Good. Start doing so please. It is disrespectful. And no, I don't believe you are a student of any of the books you mentioned. Not one.

@Toasty: It's not my job man. There is no magical combination of words that will convince you of anything. It is up to you. Not your govb't, not your parents, friends...You. Go look.

flash8, you won't be seeing things like that from "hard-core atheists", nor would you see things like this from them either. I am an atheist. I don't feel the need to belittle any religious person for their beliefs, it wouldn't make me feel more right or more powerful. I also don't feel the need to recruit anyone to my lack of religion, mocking Jesus or Mohammad wouldn't make me more important or atheism more true. Actual atheists don't need to shout "in your face" or call religious people names. It is none of my business how people worship or if they worship. The world would be a much nicer place if people would mind their own damned business.

As I have stated, I couldn't care less if you know what I believe. It matters not to me.

And, if we're doing the punctuation corrections, the correct spelling is "misinterpreted".

@dAt..."I have read nearly every major manuscript from every major religion, including the bible, the tao, the book of mormon, the satanic verses... heh, just kidding on that one... anyways, I've read and studied it all".

I just wanted you to see your own lie. You aren't being very honest with yourself. Claims like yours are very common towards them end of a useful conversation. the literal nuke. Well, Mr. Know every-nothing. Good luck. Luck will be all you have...

You've quoted where I stated the basis for making my choice. Now, if you could just point out where I gave any impression of caring about what you think about it, my question will be answered. In fact, in 1.47 I clearly stated:

I'm an atheist, and I don't feel as if I need any sort of public display in honor of my beliefs. Quite frankly, I don't care if you know what I believe or not. I would think things would improve significantly if Christians felt the same way. It's not as if the display was thrown out there. It was a counter to the constant, unending stream of Christian advertisements that always arrives at this time of year.

Where is it that I lied?

And I don't believe in luck any more than I believe in a god.

If Christmas is not your holiday fine. Ignore it but doing something like this only hurts and the ones who are being hurt the most are children who believe in Santa. No one says you have to believe in anything but stop doing hurtful things. I'm not Christian and I don't believe in Santa but I would never take that special magic from a child who does.

I agree with your point regarding the skeleton santa on a cross. I get that, that the atheist dude went too far. I can admit that. However, I don't plan to teach my son about Santa, either. Christmas will be no less "magical", or whatever, in my household. I don't need fairy-tales to make a magical family holiday experience. If you do, or you feel others do, that's great. Just know that it isn't mandatory.

What all of your comments make me see is that we have lost civility in this country. "You offend me, so shut up or I'll do something to offend you." Guys, religious and non-religious alike, we need to not be so angry at each other.

Holy GUCAMOLE people, talk about free speech and then collapse comments you don't like. Seems like if the majority doesn't like what a minority is saying they can just quash their comment, isn't anything democratic about that at all. And all of you yapping about this freedom of speech thing, well then let everybody's comment stay on this vine. But then all you whiners will probably collapse my post so you all just Have a Nice Day yhrn. And think about what you do when you collapse somebody elses post, you steal their First Amendment right to Free Speech like a Tinhorn Dictator. One more thing all you trigger happy cowboys out there, if you shoot somebody outside your house you will be arrested for murder, you just can't do that. You can shoot somebody inside your house, but if it's in the back you better have a good reason or they'll get you for excessive force.

Is it just me or is the jolly fat old conditional gift-giver Santa symbol being slowly replaced by the stern, ramrod straight Toy Soldier from Nutcracker? The fully life sized Soldier I saw for sale in Costco and, subsequently, his littler clones all over the damn place as our 'symbol' of religious observance make me expect to be seeing the Stars and Stripes begin to be replaced by the Jolly Roger, in the same vein of symbolic evolution of American values. Since so many people in America would prefer to salute the 'Flag' symbol rather than the country or the People who constitute the country, it's clear that symbols are important in the unconscious perceptions and reactions of our herd. Again, maybe it's just me but Santa does not seem as ubiquitous as usual and in his stead, the militaristic icon. And, yes, I know the story through Tchaikovsky, which does not matter here. Just asking...

William, you have given me pause to think. Do I want to believe in a little fat man riding around the world in sleigh pulled by reindeer who brings me presents. Or....do I want to believe in a nutcarcker who can come to life, defend me from killer rats, whisk me away to a magical land and them make me a princess. Nuts, as if this time of year is not busy enough trying to decide what kind of sox Uncle Joe wants, what handkerchief to get Aunt Gladys, a pipe for Grandpa, NOW this. oh dear.

I don't get it what is the problem? The articale said first 10 displays and this man was one of the first ten so whats the problem? He followed the rules did he not?

So basically, Neo, your answer is "sorry Toasty, I have no empirical evidence to support my position, I just believe it because someone told me to."

I get it.

T Bourlon

Defending THEIR right to say something is not my job - it's THEIRS! You can't seriously expect me to defend an atheist's right to ridicule my religious beliefs.

If that's really your position then I hope you don't claim to be a supporter of freedom of speech. Just admit that you think the first amendment to the United States Constitution was a big mistake.

One of my favorites quotes: "I disagree with everything you said but will defend to the death your right to say it."

I am praying for their souls with you "Crush". The thing most of the simpletons do not understand is that the same Constitution that gives them freedom of speech, gives us the exact same freedom. They are free to be perverse, we are free to speak of Jesus Christ, and against ANYTHING that insults Him. I really wouldnt care if it were against the law, or even punishable by death. I will NEVER stop standing up for Jesus Christ, as long as I draw breath.!!!

I am an atheist but I also find that display to be in bad taste and pretty darn silly really. When I looked at it I didn't think of the commercialism of Christmas. I thought that some atheist guy is trying to offend Christians. That's not on most atheists agendas. Most of us respect religious views otherwise it would be hard to function in a world where most people believe in God.

Sure everyone has freedom of speech and religion. I see a lot of comparison between this and nativities. The problem I see with that is the intention behind each one. A nativity is a religious symbol. Though it is possible someone worships Santa who died on the cross, I have a feeling this was just more of an insult to believers. Two displays, but polar opposite intentions.

The holy pink elephant in the sky will fly down on wings of gold and destroy the Earth with fire and brimstone unless you give me 10% of your income ASAP. Please contact me separately for wiring instructions.

What? You don't believe?

All I have to say to Atheists is: "You'd better be right".

There is no right or wrong. what you call wrong is someone else's "right"

EVOLVE humans. Evolve please.

All I have to say to Atheists is: "You'd better be right".

Considering there are hundreds or even thousands of "gods" that people worship throughout the world, I hope *you're* right and chose the right one. If you end up meeting Ganesha at the pearly gates, she's gonna be really pissed that you've been praying to Yahweh all this time.

Misleading headline is misleading.

The only thing Atheists had to do with this story is that a group had an official comment to it.

"Heflin was not part of any organization and sponsored the display himself, the newspaper reported."

But I suppose provocative headlines are more important than journalistic integrity.

Most of us are atheists for the vast majority of gods... Some of us have dared to go one god further...

Right or wrong is not important... Tolerance is.

Obama Lies

All I have to say to Atheists is: "You'd better be right".

The argument of a truly dumb.

I better believe in the purple spaghetti monster or when I die it might eat my soul, better safe than sorry and dumb.

this has nothing to with being an atheist nor does santa have anything to with christianity. this was just idiots trying to get a rise out of everybody and looky here they did.

Why can they tear down this image but keep the one of Christ on a cross? Simple question for a secular country.

@RamFla,

The funny thing about tolerance in this country is that the only people that have to be tolerant are the majority. The majority have to be tolerant of the minority and give in to them, but the minority doesn't have to give an inch to the majority.

Tolerance should be both ways, but in this country it isn't.

This display was not set up for any other purpose than to insult and demean. I find it interesting that "some" athiests and "artists" create things strictly because they know it will hurt and insult people, organizations, and ideas they disagree with. Yet these are the same people that nash and wail about tolerence and understanding for the people, organizations, and ideas they agree with. There are ways to disagree without being rude and hurtful. Just because a person creates something doesn't make it art anymore than creating something makes you an artist. Most of the time it's just intolerence and bigatry at work. An example the creater of this display is not an artist, he is a bigot and a hate monger.

"Wet Willy -

These atheist fools commit such acts in an attempt to validate their beliefs. If they were truly comfortable with what they espouse, they wouldn’t feel the need to denigrate the beliefs of others, in this case, the vast majority.

They are a self deluding bunch."

These Christian fools commit such acts as the crusades, discrimination against gay people, and basically anyone who's not like they are in an attempt to validate their beliefs. If they were truly comfortable with what they espouse, they wouldn't feel the need to denigrate the beliefs of others (including atheists), just because they feel that they can because they are a majority.

They are a self righteous bunch.

Why do we need to be right?

Obama Lies All I have to say to Atheists is: "You'd better be right".

Why are religious people not given your heartfelt warning? Most major religions teach that something dreadful will happen to people that follow a different religion. If you're a Christian and one of those other religions turns out to be right you're also in deep trouble.

I always get an internal chuckle when I hear an atheist tell me that they are good people. I always wonder,why would you be a good person if there's no punishment for things done in secret? If I were an atheist I would do unmentionable things, since I already don't believe in most of man's law. I am an ex-heathen.

For ohmy999999: I'm reminded of a line from the great TV series "Homicide: Life on the Street": "If my God wins, you're screwed!"

The irony is that the Christians say the same about the muslims...How does it feel? Live and let live folks.

Wet Willy - I fully agree yet I do not see a response to your comment. Must be too logical. I would also add that the only time I see a liberal calling for tolerance is when it is their beliefs or opinions being argued against. I have never heard of one supporting the Tea Party's right to free speech but I see a ton of insults from them.

The funny thing about tolerance in this country is that the only people that have to be tolerant are the majority. The majority have to be tolerant of the minority and give in to them, but the minority doesn't have to give an inch to the majority.

Tolerance should be both ways, but in this country it isn't.

Are you kidding me? The majority, or perceived majority does not have to tolerate what the minority wants, only tolerate what the minority wants them not to do in public....it's different.

i.e. - A Christian who is mad the Bible isn't taught in schools is not giving up the same thing as the Islamic parents who just want the school to be free of Christian imagery or teachings....how would you feel as a Christian parents if your child was taught about the Koran and the beliefs within it as something they should believe.....that is what children of other faiths, and more importantly their parents, have to endure if prayer exists in schools....same goes for citizens of the country as it relates to state sponsored religion, whatever the religion (which includes Atheism, which has become a religion)

PatrioticThinker

Wet Willy - I fully agree yet I do not see a response to your comment. Must be too logical. I would also add that the only time I see a liberal calling for tolerance is when it is their beliefs or opinions being argued against. I have never heard of one supporting the Tea Party's right to free speech but I see a ton of insults from them.

Perhaps because it is not worth commenting on. It is self evidently stupid. That does not have to be pointed out - or may be it does - to you.

dirtydog200 informs us:

If I were an atheist I would do unmentionable things

Typical amoral theist. So the only reason you behave like a civilized human is to avoid punishment or get a reward. You don't give a flip about what is harmful to others. Well, if your belief is the only thing keeping you from murdering my family, then I guess I'm grateful you have it, but it says more about your pathetic lack of character than it does the existence of any supernatural being.

"I always get an internal chuckle when I hear an atheist tell me that they are good people. I always wonder,why would you be a good person if there's no punishment for things done in secret? If I were an atheist I would do unmentionable things, since I already don't believe in most of man's law. I am an ex-heathen."

Then all that tells me is that you are a sick bastard who secretly wants to harm others. As an atheist, I don't need a fictional cosmic jailer to keep me in line. I don't want to "do unmentionable things" because I'm not a sociopath. My sense of empathy derives from respect for life and others, not a stupid fairy tale. You, however, should be in a padded cell.

I always get an internal chuckle when I hear an atheist tell me that they are good people. I always wonder,why would you be a good person if there's no punishment for things done in secret? If I were an atheist I would do unmentionable things, since I already don't believe in most of man's law. I am an ex-heathen.

No, you wouldn't. You don't need an invisible friend for morality; it comes with sapience. Take your bible for example: there are several parts where you are supposed to kill your neighbors or children, but you don't follow that. Why not? Because despite your invisible friend telling you it's moral, you know that that isn't true. You don't need the bible to know right from wrong. Indeed the bible has so many evil rules in there that you have to already know right from wrong to recognize it.

Shame on you Toasty... You are taking things out of context, not to mention, the Old testamant is not for us, this age... You really know very little... Someone should tell you that. Without God you have no morality. You would have nothing to base it on. Look around you! What's good has become bad, what's bad is now "good". reproduction without sex...sex without reproduction...men with men...the double-entranda of all excuses and abuses of technology... YOUR liberty. Your FREEDOM...It never ends, But it will all end one day, including this world. I know how radical it sounds. It's true though. WW III is beginning. It will be the last war. One day I hope you re-read your comments and see how much you have grown up. You read like an angry child who has actually done very little to seek the truth of the world. I hope you take the time instead of continueing on your path of never really understanding and constantly tuning in to sub-consciously hope for something to make sense... I've been there. It's like pseudo-intellectualism wrapped in lonliness. Well, that's my recollection anyways. I do hope the best for you., but you have to ask Him. He will make it known if your heart is open.

Hey Big John (2.15). Pretty good exercise in irrational rambling, and including the crusades in your ravings was a wonderful touch of delusion. The facts are that while some Christians may disapprove of certain acts or aspects of society, you don’t see them committing such vile acts as this bunch.

The goal of these atheists was to be as vile and offensive as they could possibly be, all in the name of free speech. They only emerge at Christmas time to pander their obscenities and what they do the rest of the year is anyone’s guess.

God doesnt believe in atheists , one day they will believe but then it will be one day to late.

CARRIANNE....The only ones who supported that "pastor" who wanted to burn the Quran were HIS small group. I don't even want to call them "Christians". Please don't paint us all with same brush.

I'm glad to hear that you see this "structure" as an affront to people's beliefs, even though you do not share the same belief. Thank you for being respectful. I won't paint all athiests with the same brush either.

*************************************************************************************

PEACH: How about you PROVE there ISN'T a God.

"The goal of these atheists was to be as vile and offensive as they could possibly be, all in the name of free speech"

Perhaps the goal is to get people to think. In order to do that you must get their attention. Santa Claus, crosses, Christ in the manger, they grace practically every storefront window and lawn display this time of year, Christian music is on the radio waves constantly from November into the New Year . . . And you get your panties in a bunch when someone reacts to that?

Listen, some people don't believe what you do, they don't want to raise their children under a narrow minded guise called religion, they want them to have their own thoughts and to find their own path in life . . . they teach them to believe in themselves, to not settle for mediocre, and to be the best HUMAN BEINGS they can be while they're on this earth. But above all else, and you should probably take note on this, they teach tolerance. To some of us, going outside this time of year on any given day is as unnerving as the "Crucified Bone Santa" may be to you, but most of us have the common decency and tolerance not to tear something down simply because we don't "like" or believe in it. Suppose we did though, we'd go to jail, as happens every year around this time . . . funny that the intolerant woman who vandalized this display didn't, it was after all a sanctioned display on court property. And we're the vile ones?

If morals are absolute and come from God, was a Southern, Christian, White slave-owner moral or immoral? If he was moral, because that was the morals of the time, then morals change and you can eliminate the possibility of morals being absolute and provided by God. If he was immoral, then you've damned entire generations... You can replace the question with any number of "moral" issues that have changed over the years. I don't see how the claim that morals are provided by a god or absolute has any merit. Because your bible said so or is there a better reason?

Some monkeys know how to form and maintain a civilized society as well. It has nothing to do with pleasing the big-guy in the sky and everything to do with maintaining order.

FLASH:

Another crack job of reporting the news.............NOT, just more feeble minded jibberish, who cares?

Hey msn news staff you need to find a new line of work, reporting the news doesn't fit your pistol!

Woe, Woe, Woe, Meeerrrrrryyyyy Christmas!

Aw Chris (2.31)
so the poor little atheists are starved for attention, are they? That’s what a spoiled child does when he
feels nobody is paying attention to him. I suppose this is the atheist’s version of a tantrum.

BTW, the reason you see and hear all the usual Christmas icons this time of the year is because of that pesky federal holiday known as Christmas. Nobody is forcing you to celebrate Christmas or, for that matter, any other holiday.

I wonder if this woman and her son exchange gifts on Christmas. Most atheists do, which I find vastly amusing. Oh and could we all start using a few adjectives. Not all Christian denominations are alike and neither are all Muslims mosques or Jewish sects, etc. Heck, I'm sure even some atheists believe slightly different things. I hope her kid is an adult, because the mom has just assured that the son's life will be ugly for at least the next few years. Sometimes being shunned is a much worse trial than being bullied.

Chris said:

Santa Claus, crosses, Christ in the manger, they grace practically every storefront window and lawn display this time of year, Christian music is on the radio waves constantly from November into the New Year . . . And you get your panties in a bunch when someone reacts to that?

Uh, I think you're going a bit too far on this one Chris. Your attitude is intolerant and you're talking about private property. There's no fine line between public and private property, it's clearly indicated. And there's no reason to remove all displays of religion from your view. If you don't like it, that's just too bad!

As far as displays on PUBLIC property, that's another matter. I don't think we need to go in the opposite direction and become as intolerant of the people who do profess a religion. Two wrongs do not make a right. Freedom of religion allows any religious display on private property and it shouldn't matter if it offends you, it's doing you no harm and it's up to the property owner. If a storefront Christmas display offends you, you don't have to shop there, it's easy. But I would say it's pretty intolerant.

When the government endorses a religion by allowing displays and symbols to be posted or erected, that's where you draw the line. Leave private property to the one holding the deed.

"PEACH: How about you PROVE there ISN'T a God."

Yeah Aggie, I'll get right on that... right after you prove that mermaids don't exist. Oh wait, you can't do that, can you? It's not possible to prove that something DOESN'T exist. All that one can do is point out that there's no evidence that something DOES exist.

Dust off the cobwebs, put down the bible, and try thinking from now on.

Muslims and Christians worship the exact same god and use mostly the same holy scriptures.

Once people like you can understand that, we can have peace.

Both Islam and Christianity espouse Love Thy Neighbor--however those who claim to practice those religions seem to have forgotten what they are about.

How so, Mike2283408? Are you one of those types that think every Muslim is a terrorist? You all pray to the same god, no matter what you call him or her. I don't see any difference.

Y'know, as a Christian myself, I have absolutely no problem with the display. In fact, I agree with it's anti-materialism message 100%. In fact, many Christians are appauled by has become of the Christmas season. Christian or not, this is worth checking out: http://www.livingthequestions.com/xcart/home.php?cat=161

You can watch some of it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZuU7-xA2NU It's good stuff!

This was the subject of our adult education series at our our church. Seriously, breaking free of the production-consumption mentality of our culture is very liberating. When you can tell the difference between your "wants" and your "needs," you find that you don't really want your "wants" so much after all. It tends to lead to a much happier and fulfilling life. Well, at least, for me it did.

You are the kind of Christian I respect, Warhammer! Thank you. However, even as a Pagan, I still think the display was in poor taste. Thank you again for your non-inflammatory statement. Peace :-)

One-Eye--I have to say your point is very valid, and I agree with the sentiment wholeheartedly, but you really ought to recognize that Christianity is every bit as monolithic as Islam: not at all. There are many Chrisitans like me who look at the fundamentalist right-wingers trying to legislate (or constitutionalize) their version of morality to force every American to live by their rules, and see a Christian Taliban trying hard to achieve the power to impose their will. I can only assume that this right-wing crowd's only problem with the Taliban and other fundamentalist Islamist states isn't that it's a theocracy trying to control society, but simply that it's not _their— god's theocracy, and therefore they're evil.

It's kind of appalling really.

@mtnbikerZOM

Our next door neighbor is Wiccan. Her kid and my kid are pretty good friends. We're actually getting the priestess of her coven to come speak at our church's adult education class (we're a unified congregation of the United Church of Christ and the Presbyterian Church) to help break down some of the goofy sterotypes surrounding their beliefs. The folks from my congregation who regularly attend adult ed. are really looking forward to it.

And for what it's worth, Merry Christmas, Happy Hannukah and a Joyous Whatever-Else-You-May-Or-May-Not-Celebrate-This-Time-Of-Year! :) Peace to you as well, Zom!

Mike, Christianity and Islam are VERY SIMILAR...that is what cracks me up. Same God as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob...it is historical. And our DNA is 99% the same as Chimpanzees. Why does that bother people? The funny thing is, that "God created the earth in 7 days"...For a POWER that is Omnipotent and Omniscient, who is to say how long 7 days is in God time? People need to open their minds a bit.

AND HAPPY HOLIDAYS...whatever you believe.

That pesky First Amendment....

I am not a member of a mainstream christian church. Gave it up many, many years ago. A few years back, I worked for a company that had a small group that all belonged to the same fundamentalist christian church. They were good, devout, hard-working, family-oriented people. Then, they discovered I was...not christian. The horror!!!

They took to standing on the other side of the cubicle-wall and praying -- loudly -- for my salvation, every morning before starting work. I asked them nicely to please give it up, I'm not joining their church and this is very distracting from trying to get my own work done. Their response was to pray longer and louder.

I made an official HR complaint -- the GM knew what was going on, but ignored it as long I wasn't saying anything. They all screamed to the heavens (pun intended) that I was violating THEIR 1st amendment rights to practice their religion. Apparently, harrassing non-co-religionists was a part of it.

It finally took sitting them down and making them read the company policy about 'no harrassment on grounds of race, color, religion, gender orientation, etc' to make them stop the overt pressure to 'save me.' They still left all their tracts on my desk daily. I dropped them into the trash.

This went on (for months) until the senior guy in their group left for another job. I was supposed to respect their rights and religion, but they felt no need to do me the same courtesy,

People do have a right to their beliefs whether anyone else agrees or not, and they do have the right to express them with displays, etc. The courthouse opened up a can of worms by allowing various displays on their lawn. That being said......

The display is in poor taste and I would think quite upsetting to small children. It is sad that a lack of sensitivity will most likely result in a ban on all displays.

Anybody up for a road trip I think it is about time to deface a few holiday displays if they can do it to an athiest display then why can't any of us destroy the displays we disagree with.

Actually, I find the Santa-suited skeleton more cheerful than all those Christian crosses with a dead body nailed on displayed by churches and people - and even wear around their necks. Yuck! The murder of Jesus (if he existed as stories claim) was a tragedy, just like all other murders based in hate and ignorance. Why celebrate?

I prefer to recognize the holiday season as celebrating earth's winter solstice, as it has been for many thousands of years before rulers and storytellers created Christian myths. Besides, the Christian cross is associated with Easter, not Christmas: the tongue-in-cheek lawn display should have shown a Baby Santa in a manger!

Promotion of any particular religion, or religion in general, is contrary to our U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Therefore, only secular holiday displays should be allowed on government or public property in our country. Santa Claus seems to fit in with that just fine, along with the Easter Bunny and a Pumpkin Patch.

I am a Christian and the display does not bother me. The ones who put it up are afraid. you put down what you do not understand. so if this is how they see things it does not hurt me or GOD. He can take their taunts and and names and symbolisms. i do not know why they fear Christianity because lets say they were right(not) but why fear GOD or his Christians if in the end we just die and go nowhere. They sure do fear a lot. I know where I am going when I leave this world. Not worried about what an unbeliever thinks. They do derserve a special name nor should a Christian worry about what they say. We can just pray for their souls and let it go at that. Merry Christmas.

If we should allow these mockeries, then let Christians put the 10 commandments on the courthouse lawn again. Compromise means both parties give in not just one.

yep, bith are bs.

I'm curious TT, did you see this as a "secular" holiday display?

I personally see it as a childish immature prank. Not because I am anti-antiest, but because it was stupid!

atheism means you believe in god you just don't believe the right one has shown up yet...It doesn't give these morons the right to piss on someone elses religion. Christmas is about Christ so let us celebrate it and stop with the happy holidays or Holiday trees or objections to the nativity scene....If you don't believe in Christ or Christmas don't celebrate it...

I'm not Islamic so you don't see me celebrating RAMADAN...you also don't see me telling others they cant celebrate Hanuka or Shoshana...give it rest

What was so offensive? Christians have long clamored to take Santa Claus out of the equation, and it looks like someone did. Was it the use of the cross? I don't understand all the hoopla over a crucified Santa Skeleton (who obviously didn't rise after the third day, once again proving ...?)

Mike . Summed it up quite well. FYI: Muhammad literally means Destroyer. Jesus does not.

Sniffing my fingers after a BM isn't proof of evolution either.

Where did you get the idea that Christians want Santa out of the equation, rainyday?....

@ttmadison, if he existed? he is also refrenced in history books as well.

There is a difference between celebrating peoples beliefs and attacking them. this is a display attacking christmas, and I dont think that it is ok. If there was a display of some famous atheist leader (if such a thing exists) being hung or something, I also dont think that it would be ok. But if there is a manger scene or some symobol of hanukah being displayed on public property, I think its ok, I think a line could be drawn where if the majority of people would rather have no displays at all then have a display like this, then I think it should be took down. I am guessing this is how the people of this town feel... Yes i get the whole critique of materialism or whatever, but I dont see why atheists would care about the materialism of christmas if they dont celebrate it, so I think it was intentionally created to offend people because some of the atheists were upset that there were holiday decorations on public property and for some reason they are offended by being reminded that other people dont believe the same way they do... this is the only explanation that makes sense to me.

ttmadison;

Easter bunny?, self explanatory, Pumpkin patch?, Halloween. Both are in fact religious holidays, not secular. The fourth of July is secular, thanksgiving is secular as are the various presidents birthdays, Labor day, memorial day, MLK day, etc. Changing the symbology does not change origins of the holiday. And before you tell me they pre-date Christianity, I know this. So why do you care how others believe? Are you stoned daily as a hieratic by Christians? Clubbed as an Infidel by Muslims? No, you are not is the correct answer. Not in the U.S., elsewhere in the world, it might be different. Do you burn Bibles, the Qua'ran or even the Torah in protest of religion? If so, why? These books have done what to you exactly? If you wish your beliefs or lack thereof, respected, try lending the same courtesy to others. I have no problem with any religion or abstinence from same. The choice is up to the individual. This however, is not license to debase ours beliefs.

brian-1077790, I think you mean Agnostic. Atheist's do not believe in any God, they believe man is his own God, as it were. Agnostics believe there could be a God, just perhaps not the one of organized religion pro-ports and prefer to follow their own beliefs in a deity. Otherwise, your on the mark.

WarhammerThree excellent post I happen to be aetheist but have also given up materialism of christmas along with all of my extended family, which is made up of all kinds of beliefs. We seem enjoy christmas much more the last five yrs since we have taken the presents out of the equation.

This is not a holiday display, this was done to promote a personal agenda and was definitely in poor taste. To allow this display on public property would be like allowing the KKK to put a burning cross on the Courthouse lawn?

Since we can not respect the rights of others we should not allow the promotion of any displays on public property. This is not even a separation of church and state issue. This is just downright hate.

brian-1077790

"atheism means you believe in god you just don't believe the right one has shown up yet...It doesn't give these morons the right to piss on someone elses religion. Christmas is about Christ so let us celebrate it and stop with the happy holidays or Holiday trees or objections to the nativity scene....If you don't believe in Christ or Christmas don't celebrate it...

I'm not Islamic so you don't see me celebrating RAMADAN...you also don't see me telling others they cant celebrate Hanuka or Shoshana...give it rest"

@ brian-1077790

The definition of atheism is the rejection of belief in a god or gods. Also, where in the entire article, comment section, and display did it say that you CANNOT celebrate Christmas? Not even atheists have said that you have no right to celebrate Christmas. Celebrate what you want.....that's the nice thing about being atheist....WE DON'T CARE!! What we do care about is having the same right to display our own symbols, without them being torn down. Although I don't necessarily agree with the display, I think that it really doesn't matter what atheists put up as a display, somewhere, somebody would have been offended, just because of the fact that we don't share the same beliefs as they do.

Mike-2283408 chides:

...you still believe your relatives are monkeys.

And you still believe your relatives are dirt clods.

But donate first so I can keep driving mine!...

"Instead it was used as a way for someone to show their rage at (*GASP*) being offended."

It seems to me that such a childish display that was obviously INTENDED to be hurtful is also a show of rage. It certainly wasn't likely to spark thoughtful discussion.

But it has...you're discussing it right now.

I actually think it's hilarious. Reminds me of A Nightmare Before Christmas where the Skeleton wants to be Santa Claus.

I thought the same thing, NFIL - very 'Burton-esque.'

Usually, when an Atheist posts a religious-themed display, it is a mean-spirited attack against those who who disagree with their worldview, so the knee-jerk reaction to this doesn't surprise me. This season is supposed to be about peace and love, not mean-spirited attacks against those who wish to celebrate it according to their faiths. However, in this situation, I actually agree with the message of too much commercialism has overshadowed the meaning of Christmas. In this case, the displayer should have included a placard with the explanation of it's intent. A lack of good communication skills is often what causes mistakes, and often has led to wars.

Usually, when an Atheist posts a religious-themed display, it is a mean-spirited attack against those who who disagree with their worldview, so the knee-jerk reaction to this doesn't surprise me.

I am an atheist, and it's obvious that this display was a mean spirited attack on Christians. Nor is identifying it as such a 'knee-jerk' reaction. It's common sense. You nail a santa to a cross, and it's ridiculous on its face to try and claim it's NOT intended to insult/inflame Christians.

It is really too bad that the extreme bible thumpers and the extreme bible bashers are all too bull headed and selfish to simply let this be a holiday for those that want it and it doesn't have to be for those that dont. We celebrate Christmas with our kids every year, have a great time and the kids obviously enjoy it. My neighbor doesn't celebrate it because they don't believe in Christs B-Day. Guess what? That is ok. They wish us a Merry Christmas every year because we DO believe in it, and they asked that we DON'T wish them a Merry Christmas since they don't believe in it. No problem. Why are so many of you selfish A-holes so worried about whether YOU are right or not? Personally I don't give a damn what you believe, and just like I have the right to put up a Nativity Scene wherever the hell I want to, you can put your little skeleton up if it makes you feel good to make some innocent kid ask what the point of a dead Santa is. It's a free country and you should be able to do what you please.

The skeleton was nailed to a cross on Monday by a mother and son associated with an atheist group, one of the nine approved displays for the Christmas season.

But I agree, it was in poor taste. I am OK with Andres Serrano's Piss Christ, so my opinion has nothing to do with my views on religion. It was in poor taste to have it on the court house lawn. At least Serrano's work is in galleries where parents can control if their child sees it.

I know, seeing a plastic skeleton in a classroom laboratory is one thing, but seeing a plastic skeleton in front of a courthouse? EVERYBODY PANIC!

Ok Toasty I'll post the same thing too. Let's everybody panic over a sheep and some people sitting in a barn. That one always scared me when I drove through the country side as well.

It should, because when that barn scene is displayed by the government, it's a direct violation of our Constitution. I find that VERY frightening indeed.

How in the world is that in direct violation of our Constitution? We have been lied to so much in this country it is sickening! We should be able to display the TRUTH...a nativity just reminds us of that truth.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

- "Establishment Clause" of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution.

"Before we start hearing from the "why do atheists hate everyone?" crowd, please note this display was supposed to provoke a discussion about our obscene commercialism, not one about God. Nor was it sponsored by any group."

You posted your comment right after I posted mine. It is as follows:

Usually, when an Atheist posts a religious-themed display, it is a mean-spirited attack against those who who disagree with their worldview, so the knee-jerk reaction to this doesn't surprise me. This season is supposed to be about peace and love, not mean-spirited attacks against those who wish to celebrate it according to their faiths. However, in this situation, I actually agree with the message of too much commercialism has overshadowed the meaning of Christmas. In this case, the displayer should have included a placard with the explanation of it's intent. A lack of good communication skills is often what causes mistakes, and often has led to wars.

Texana Deb: The mother and son were associated with this atheist group, but they acted alone. The group was not involved, according to the article at least.

MyCommentsandSuch: Perhaps there was an explanation posted by the cross? If not, you're right; it doesn't communicate anything but shock.

and christians hard at work silencing anyone who believes different than they do.

The more correct way of saying this would be:

Atheists, hard at work rejecting your belief of a omniscient omnipotent omnibenevolent and omnipresent sky god who has the ability to eliminate childhood cancer and sudden infant death syndrome but chooses to sit on his hands while we kill eachother in his name....

Not spreading... just expressing. Besides, it was about commercialization of Christmas, not atheism. People seem to read their own prejudices into a written article.

lol, oh that's rich! :-)

Fromtheashes

Right On Man! You forgot this little gem

"God created polio and small pox. Man created the vaccine."

Of course, Bill, from a devil's advocate point of view, God also created man, and can therefore be credited with all his creations (bad and good) as well.

wrong thread...

As a Jew with a VERY ecumenical family*, I think this was actually very funny. My personal favorite X-mas song is "Gramma got runover by a reindeer". Too many so-called Christians have absolutely no sense of humor. In fact, I find that the more "Christian" one proclaims oneself- the less that person actually is. Probably the same for Moslems - most of the terrorists pick & choose which Koran verses they like, just as many fundamental Christians do.

*married 3 times-catholic, lutheran & southern baptist & my daughter is married to a (NON_TERRORIST) muslim from Uzbekistan!

All christians that go to war belie thier claim to be christian (Isa 2:1-4)

Satan is the ruler of the world (1Jo 5:18) that is why he could offer all the kingdoms to Jesus.(2 Cor 4:4)

(Mt 4:8,9)

That is why God does not (can not) help mankind in thier current condition because he would be helping

satan with his rulership and lie that Jehovah withholds good things from us. (Gen 3:1-5)(Heb 6:18,19)

Jehovah is waiting for the proper time to bring this corrupt world condition to an end (2 peter 3:9,10)

I do not like green eggs and ham. I will not eat them, Sam-I-am. (Dr. Seuss)

We're both talking about children's fiction - what's your point, Jake?

Yashmak,

By that reasoning, everything you do should be credited to your mother and a little to your father. Then when you have kids, you can have the ultimate in self gratification by taking credit for everything they do.

Agreed! I just wish people would not try and force those beliefs on others -- especially by trying to get laws changed to "conform".

"Religion is like a penis. It's fine to have one. It's fine to be proud of it. But please don't whip it out in public and start waving it around."

Jessi, Great analogy LOL. I think that analogy could be etended to lack of religion and politics as well.

If public places want to have displays and not offend, why not just string pretty colored lights?

Texana - I couldn't agree more.

So true Jessipalooza.

I for one don't think that respect is necessary in either direction. If you can't handle seeing or hearing something you don't agree with, you have no business leaving your house.

Jessipalooza,

BWHAHAHAHAHAHA! That is a keeper.

Toasty I think for once we may agree on something. Well....actually hold that thought. I seriously doubt that you would be putting your post on here if it were to discuss the Nativity Scene. The only time I see you say what you are saying is when it is NOT in favor of the bible bashers. Am I wrong on this one?

As long as the scene is on private property, I couldn't care less.

Jessipalooza, I totally agree with that... however I would add to it...

"Religion is like a penis. It's fine to have one. It's fine to be proud of it. But please don't whip it out in public and start waving it around... AND IT IS WRONG TO TRY TO SHOVE IT DOWN A CHILD'S THROAT!!!"

... AND IT IS WRONG TO TRY TO SHOVE IT DOWN A CHILD'S THROAT!!!"

Hahahaha! The original was already pretty funny, but the addition is f'ing hilarious, WarBeast!

Why is it that we are not reading what the article is about? First of all I saw no mention of Christians being involved with any of it.

So Jessie and Texana, you do not believe in the basic right of "freedom of speech?" I love it when the athiests want to throw the freedom of speech thing around in issues like this, but don't believe that christians should have the same right.

I have the right to speak it, you have the right to not listen!

Txhorseman

Obviously you did not read all of my posts. I AM an artist and I believe in freedom of speech, for all. This display should never have been on public property. It was tasteless. If they want to put it on their own property;have at it. Atheists have fought to take religion out of state, well then they have no right to put their thoughts on it on state (county courthouse) property either. By the way , I AM a Christian.

It's kind of hard to express your "beliefs" if they are NON-beliefs. The only way to do so is to mock that which you do not believe in, as witnessed by many comments left here. I can't stomach in-your-face right wing religious nut cases. I equally can't stand in-your-face atheists who have a "need" to tell the world that they are superior and enlightened, and who will do so at every turn. I once read a story about a puppy, and a reader responded with, "God, she's cute!" Another reader responded by telling her that there was no God, blah blah blah. At either extreme side of the topic - morons, all.

if Christians are wrong, we lose nothing...

IDK...there seems to have already been a loss of dignity and logic.

If Christians are wrong, you face punishment from the countless gods you claim don't exist.

My chances of punishment are only slightly higher, by a statistically insignificant amount, due to my rejection of only one more god than you.

What about if Muslims are right and Christians are wrong? You lose eternity.

What about it Jews are right and Christians are wrong? You lose eternity.

What about if Hindus are right and Christians are wrong? You lose eternity.

Pascals wager is the dumbest argument to believe in a religion ever invented.

if Christians are wrong, we lose nothing...

Except a lifetime of pointless worship and money wasted to a non-existent deity.

christians lose living a life free of restrictions.

"Bottom line, if Christians are wrong, we lose nothing... If atheists are wrong they lose eternity."

Ahhh, the old Pascal's Wager. You silly Christian... what makes you think you lose nothing if you're wrong? You assume that if there is a god, then it's YOUR god. What if you're wrong about that? What if the god that exists is Zeus? Or Pan? Or Krishna? Or Allah? Or Aten? Or Isis? Or Ahura Mazda? You could be wrong in worshipping the WRONG god, and then you end up in some other religion's hell? Ever think of that?

You keep forgetting, Christian, that you are an atheist in regards to all gods, but one. The only difference is that self-identifying atheists don't believe in your god either.

So essentially christians are just covering their bets 'in case'. Sorry I've seen absolutely zero 'evidence' of god, ANY god out of the hundreds that are out there. I'm not going to go through all this malarkey just as an 'in case' scenario.

That's because there IS no evidence for any gods. None whatsoever. Zero percent.

For the record, I believe in GOD, that is, the Creator that breathes life into all things, that we are surrounded by, and from within, that has given us free will to choose.

It is precisely this choice that we are given (by whomever "God" you worship) that allows us to love one another, be tolerant of one another, and help each other. It is also the choice to hurt one another, manipulate and repress each other for our own personal gain.

What religion teaches, (and I'm speaking of the fundamental aspects, NOT the sociopathic interpretation thereof) is how to recognize and respect the benevolence of God, and to love each other universally. ALL religions have the same foundations of peace and tolerance. It is the PEOPLE who misinterpret these things and warp religion to suit their own purposes.

I really don't think God cares what religion you espouse. Religion is simply the cultural expression of spirituality, not spirituality itself!

Some of you athiests may believe that religion is useless. Fine. Some of you may believe that there is no afterlife or soul. Fine. Some of you may believe that God is nonexistent. Fine. I would just argue that these things truly exist, but hidden from us for the purposes of learning. We are here to educate ourselves about life and love, nothing more. We learn through our afflictions, and those whom we afflict. Hateful words on both sides are unproductive.

Go to www.iands.org for more information about near-death experiences and the enlightenment that comes from them. Merry Christmas!

Toasty No evidence. Look around you at your family, friends, people of all sorts, trees, mountains, snow, fresh fruit, the world itself, all to remind us that God created it all. The ocean, the sky, rain, all planned to support human life, and no human couldhave ever planned it -- any of it. Boy, it sure takes alot to convince you of anything, Toas ty. Love, spi rit, faith, all given and designed by --- God. P roof? How much mo re proof doyou need. Thre bir th of a baby. All designed by God, no t by any hand. Believe, Toas ty, andyou will find joy, and peace, and lov e God mo re than you love the wo rld.

Personally, I think it is wrong to bow and scrape to the emperor's new cloths because you're scared of the outcome to call it like you see it, but then I have ethics so what do I know. If you believe, that;s fine, but I can no more believe in a god then an invisible pink unicorn and it would be wrong of me to pretend otherwise.

Toasty- You and I often agree with one another politically, but this is an area in which we differ.

Please try www.iands.org or www.near-death.org for more information about near-death experiences. I think that you will be impressed by the experiences of athiests who have crossed the "veil" into the spiritual aspect, and have returned. The interesting thing is, one would expect a devout religious person to have a religious experience (and they do!), but when athiests and agnostics have similar experiences (spiritual, but non-religious) it is truly remarkable.

That's an interesting argument, Gordon. "Everything everywhere always proves me right." I came up with a very similar hypothesis when I was in the second grade.

Anyway Indy, near-death experiences are just what happens in the brain when it undergoes trauma. You see the exact same experiences in aviation centrifuge tests, as well as when using hallucinogenic drugs. They can even be very profound (just a more realistic word than "spiritual"), and a person doesn't need religion to experience very profound thoughts. It's just the way our brains are wired, and in extreme circumstances things glitch and create "near-death experiences." They're just bugs in the hardware.

"Toasty No evidence. Look around you at your family, friends, people of all sorts, trees, mountains, snow, fresh fruit, the world itself, all to remind us that God created it all."

Or maybe leprechauns created it all.

Using such examples are only evidence of themselves. My family is a collection of individuals who share very close genetic similarities. What is that evidence of? Only that a lot of people have procreated. My friends are just evidence that I'm a social creature and have cultivated relationships outside of my family. Plants are examples of living organisms that replicate themselves through natural processes, mountains are evidence of geological changes through natural processes, and snow is the product of freezing precipitation... THROUGH NATURAL PROCESSES. None of these things lend evidence toward any gods or any other kind of supernatural being.

"Boy, it sure takes alot to convince you of anything, Toas ty."

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You are postulating that an unseen, unknowable being that cannot be detected except through telepathy created things that already have natural explanations.

"Love, spi rit, faith, all given and designed by --- God. P roof? How much mo re proof doyou need."

How about ANY proof?

"Thre bir th of a baby."

That is the result of sexual reproduction. No god is required in that.

"Believe, Toas ty, andyou will find joy, and peace, and lov e God mo re than you love the wo rld."

Clearly, you are convinced by shoddy, poetic sermons and childish imaginings. Some of us, however, can only be convinced that something physically exists by demonstrably proof, not blathering on about the pretty aspects of nature.

Toasty, while I understand your premise, the neurological hypothesis of the "dying-brain theory" actually does not hold up under scrutiny. I do not have time right now to explain this here, but would implore you to go to the websites I listed and research this. Cheers!

Like I just said, it doesn't require the brain to be near-death. It happens regularly in perfectly safe (well, as safe as an Air Force centrifuge can be) settings, with no permanent effects. This isn't some hypothesis, it's medical fact.

Sorry, Toasty, but it is only a hypothesis, it is not yet considered to be fact. There are scientists who have been working on the Dying-Brain theory for decades and they can still not come with any concrete conclusions.

Yes, people have experienced NDEs while in states other than physical trauma, but even these will not fully explain the neurological processes involved.

When congenitally blind people can "see" during their experience and when young children "come back" to report things that they have not yet lived long enough to have knowledge of, and when people report veridical experiences that are confirmed afterward (such as knowledge of occurences that happened away from the immediate environment the person was located in during their experience), it forces medical science to derive other conclusions.

Again, I implore you to go to the website and read for yourself. I can't make you, obviously, but all I'm asking is that you keep an open mind.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's not true. As I said before, this is an accepted medical phenomenon, observed in controlled conditions and accepted in the neurological sciences. That's just how it is.

Atheism is not a belief, it is the lack of belief. I don't believe in a lot of things other people do but I would never try to change the traditions and beliefs of a whole nation just because I decided I didn't agree with it. Who the hell do these fools think they are? If you don't want to believe, don't! Just stay the hell out of the way of the rest of the world and what they want to believe in. Most of these people are just looking for their 15 minutes of fame and some stupid judges legislatring from the bench go along with them when they should just show them the door and offer them a one way ticket to countries where religion of any kind is not allowed.

Atheism is not a lack of belief in anything, it simply means someone's spiritual beliefs don't include a personal deity.

I don't know any atheists who are trying to force other people into atheism.

I do know a lot of christians - in fact all christians are told to - who try to impose their beliefs on others.

Why are you so offended by people who have a different belief system? How does this santa even affect you?

Great idea--that's exactly what I'll say to my tear-streaked four-year-old when she sees this lovely display as we drive by to look at Christmas lights.

But your four year old has no problems staring at statues of a tortured, bleeding, dead man?

What makes you think we stare at statues of tortured, bleeding dead men? I never said I was religious.

I'm thinking R2121's daughter would be thinking the same thing my daughter would have at four, "Mommy somebody killed Santa!"

To which you respond: "No honey, that's just a plastic skeleton. It isn't real." Children can understand things not being real, especially when confirmed by a grown-up. They develop that ability pretty early on, and that's why they don't stay awake at night in sheer terror of Darth Vader coming to blow up the world with his Death Star. However, when a grown-up tells them that the fantasy IS true, like the whole Jesus thing, then they do frequently have nightmares about going to hell. The key is responsibly parenting, and not telling your children lies about the way the universe works.

Listen, I'm am NOT religious--I think filling children's head with dillusions about hell and all that other nonsense is ridiculous. I think you were taking my comment too literally. My point is that the skeleton is disgusting and it will disturb children (and thanks for the advice, but I know what to tell my children when they are upset). I think many religous things are disgusting and disturb children. Don't assume that just because I think this display is disgusting that I'm some sort of religious fanatic or hypocrite.

Thank you Toasty! Well said!

So Toasty, which "truth" does a dead santa skeleton prove to some young kid that looks forward to Christmas every year? What did that just do for that kid? Explain what the point of that is, other than to force your BS on me just like the Nativity Scene does in your perception?

You tell them "that is one person's way of saying that the christmas spirit has been killed by commercialism." Or you tell them "It is a reminder that according to the bible, Jesus was destined to die on a cross and we must not forget that; not even on christmas." Or possibly "it's a funny joke; someone told Santa to lose some weight."

This isn't hard. And I don't even have kids.

Took my 4 yr old and 8 yr old trick or treating this year and I dressed as the grim reaper. I walked down the street and not a single child started to cry when they seen me. I really doubt this display would cause children to cry.

Skulls and skeletons are fine on halloween but 2 months later they are disgusting, vulgar and too scarey. Makes sense.

I think filling children's head with dillusions about hell and all that other nonsense is ridiculous.

And yet your kids believe in an old man who lives far away, somehow watches everything they're doing, knows when they've been good and bad, and rewards them accordingly.

I see.

At the same time, you really need to ask yourself what is wrong with commercialism? I mean, it forms the backbone of our economy, and just because it superceded the fairy tale stuff for some people, it doesn't necessarily ahve to detract from the spirit of the holiday season.

So I am curious to anyone that wants to respond. This truly is not sarcastic, but educational for me as every athiest friend I have, does not celebrate Christmas because they don't believe is Christs B-day.

What are Athiests celebrating on December 25th? Is it just a fat guy handing out presents..just because? Are all athiests like the one's I know that don't do anything at all? Really, help me understand what you do on this day if CHRISTmas isn't about CHRIST?

Kayner. Some people celebrate the Winter Solstice. Some people are just glad to be off work for a couple of days. Some folks just take the opportunity to see family.

So... by Kayner's logic, should we bow down in reverence to Thor every Thursday.. or Fria every friday.. or Saturn every Saturday.. etc.. etc...?

What do I celebrate on December 25th? The day of presents! I grew up remember December 25th was about presents, not about Christ. Sure my celebration is a offshoot of your holiday, but that's the way I grew up. I don't believe in your god or anyone's. I respect your right believe whatever religion you want, as long as you respect mine.

so to clarify the answer to your question, December 25th = PRESENTS DAY

Kayner, it's really not that difficult. We're celebrating the customary time of year, friends and family gather to eat, drink and be merry. The giving of gifts occurs sometimes as does putting up a decorated tree and using the colors green and red. Cards can be sent wishing others a Merry Christmas or Happy Chanukah.

In our home, we do all of the above without the mention of a "Christ" as it really has nothing to do with our celebrations

I celebrate the cultural aspects of Christmas on the 25th even though I don't believe in any deities, because it's an important part of our culture. I also light Hannukah candles every year, even though I'm not Jewish, for the very same reason. Holidays help break up the monotony of daily life, and having special occasions to exchange gifts and visit family is a welcome event indeed.

Simple if the majority of the resident's want displays,and they want a specific type,then so be it,and any others should move,or comply,You should choose your place to live where your neighbors think like you so you have no surprises,and don't have to vote about everything!

For myself christmas is a time to bring family together exchange gifts and to celebrate the closing of the year. This of course is the very same reason pre-Christian peoples celebrated.

jeez warbeast...he made it perfectly clear that he was not being sarcastic, but wanted to learn about the holiday from another perspective.

So most of the responses lable the 25th as CHRISTmas. The whole identity is about Christ. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to convince you that my belief is correct because just like most of you, I dont care what you believe and I am not one of these bible thumpers that believes its my job to tell you what happens after death, because none of us are dead so none of us know. But it doesn't make any sense that you celebrate the 25th of December if you don't believe in the day. If the 25th wasn't this religeous celebration (that is also named after the religeous figure) what is your thought as to what the day even represents? Why not just hand out presents on November 3rd or February 9th?

The day was picked because it was a way for the church to syncretically adopt a pagan holiday. That is the historical answer.

The meaning can be whatever one wants. All cultures practice holidays and festivals at specified occasions. Agricultural peoples do it based on a calendar.

Every humanistic athiest believes that morality when exercised makes life less painful and more joyful. Holidays often celebrate and reinforce sentiment that family, friends, and community have value.

The alternative is to believe that morality exists only as a rule spoken by God, and each denomination has the perfect rule, all others are false. That is why Abraham was going to sacrifice his son, because morality has no logical basis in this worldview.

Christian morality overlaps with universal ideas about ethics, so in that respect is not mostly dysfunctional. It only gets ugly in that other aspect, where it is necessary to sacrifice things to God (Why?), that you need to be dunked in water in order to avoid burning for eternity (What?), that any dissenting argument is demonic, that the world will end based upon a predetermined script, and it is desirable to bring this about (??).

The point is that religions can fit ethics, but ethics exist independent of religion, and religion can also exist independent of ethics. When it does, things get ugly very quickly.

The Protestants were worried about Catholic indoctrination, so they banned all prayer in school.

True -- and now they blame it on "liberals" and "atheists".

I think this alls into the category of tolerance for others' beliefs. If you don't believe, that's fine but don't demean.

Catholics have a dead, bleeding body on a cross.

A skeleton is definitely less graphic.

Demaning others' beliefs is a time-honored tradition in developed democratic nations. I mean, had we respected King George's beliefs back in 1776...

Maybe instead of demanding propriety and deference, you should instead encourage people to grow a spine and embrace the freedom of expression.

How can there be a law banning prayer in school? If there is to be no laws regarding religion, then this would be unconstitutional. If they want to pray, then they have to be allowed.

Just like it was said above about looking/not looking at something offensive, if you don't like it don't listen to it.

Prayer isn't banned. School-sponsored prayer is.

You know, a ten-second Google search could have saved you from looking like an idiot this time, JW.

How can there be a law banning prayer in school? If there is to be no laws regarding religion, then this would be unconstitutional. If they want to pray, then they have to be allowed.

There isn't. Pray all you want to. In fact, I bet most kids do, especially before an exam they forgot to study for! The "law" is derived from the Establishment Clause of the Constitution, and it applies ONLY if the PUBLIC school forces prayer on students. That's why prayer cannot be part of morning announcements, which all students are required to hear, but the "pray around the flag pole" thing BEFORE school and VOLUNTARY attended is just fine.

Catholics believe Jesus died on the cross to save us from our sins, he then descended to Hell to free the righteous, rose from the dead, the ascended and opened Heavens Gates.

That being said, if you knew the true meaning of the "dead, bleeding body on a cross" then you would see that it is a wonderful symbol of our beliefs and our history.

Also, in my high school we had "moments of silence", so students were able to pray or continue sleeping during homeroom. No one had a problem with it.

And many more cultures venerate the bones of their ancestors, even digging them up once a year to clean them.

The point being that a crucifix is more graphic than a skeleton, no matter what your belief system.

I know what you believe your meaning to be. However, to those who are not christian, a crucifix glorifies a dead, bleeding, tortured criminal's body.

Thanks. And good luck to you ask well if you have called any gods or religions false.

Blood, Sweat and Tears made that song famous, but it was written by the great Laura Nyro.

Another Christmas favorite of mine is by Tom Lehrer. One verse goes like this:

On Christmas day you can't get sore.
Your fellow man you must adore.
There's time to rob him all the more
the other three hundred and sixty-four.

Christmas was originally the celebration of the Winter Solstice. In fact, most of the traditional "christian" holidays, stem from Pagan celebrations.

Simple reply: because they are not celebrating a place stupid. In their mind they are celebrating a person.

Thanks G.Zucker, happy holidays /great December to you as well!

thinking now, how is a plastic snowman in Phoenix, AZ celebrating the birth of Jesus? Check your oxymoron of a nom de plume and actually think about the complete contents of the original question before throwing around the "stupid" label. Cheers.

Thank you for a reasonable answer, Diverdown1. All the best.

Zucker: What part don't you understand, the material surroundings of where someone comes from does NOT HAVE to figure in how people celebrate. Simple enough. So it does not matter if a person is born in a desert or on a ship in the sea. Your question is not dificult and your mad it was answered so easily.

The plastic snowman DOESN'T have to be a celebration for the birth of Jesus. It IS a celebration of a holiday culture around us that IS NOT just limited to the birth of someone's savior.

So, if I were to change my entire front lawn into a Japanese rack garden - complete with bonsai trees and paper lanterns - for just a small portion of the summer, and when asked why I went through this ordeal, I said, "It's to celebrate Independence Day," you wouldn't ask why? The artist mentioned in the article must have had you in mind when he talked about the commercialism of Christmas. You are celebrating the myth of Santa Claus (and his fictional existence in the North Pole) with your icicles and snowmen rather than the birth of Jesus. With regard to your "holiday season," other than Christmas, which holiday is represented by these ornaments? I don't recall seeing any plastic reindeer emblazoned with "Happy Hanukkah" or seeing plastic snowmen holding signs that read "Happy Kwanzaa."

BTW, to address another comment of yours, I am hardly angry (mad, as you put it). Actually, as calm as can be - merely typing while other applications load on my computer. However, you seem to have a bristled stance in this thread. Please don't project your rage onto me. It doesn't suit me well.

@G. Zucker

"To the atheists, have a great December." Haha that gave me a chuckle.

Actually I plan to have a great christmas seeing as how commercial it is. Got a tree and everything, and since god is as real as santa, guess what? I get to sleep in on Sunday :) Jealous?

Hey, Ghost. Don't sleep in too late. There are a lot of great NFL games. I'll try to sleep in until the kids jump on the bed.

deleted

And Mike, you believe people are made of mud. What's more intelligent; a clump of mud or an ape?

Mike, you're distorting evolution theory, as most evolution bashers do. There is no theory that man evolved from monkeys, there is a theory that man shares common evolutionary predecessors with other primates.

Yeah, our ancestors separated from monkeys' ancestors a long ways back. Although to be fair, that common ancestor looked a lot more like modern monkeys than modern apes.

not true - when we last separated from chimps (closest living relative), our ancestor was already ape-like (large, no tail, large brain).

I didn't say "when we separated from chimps." I said "our common ancestor with monkeys looked more like a modern monkey than a modern ape."

so your right - i was half going off of common senses - "shares common evolutionary predecessors with other primates" - my bad.

Santa Claus actually reflects the season well. He is giving, good natured, and bribes children to be good all year. A gift to parents, as well. The other guy threatens them with eternal damnation if they are naughty, and if they pay attention to science books.

This damnation will occur in a place nobody has ever seen, overseen by a guy who nobody has ever seen, who is tolerated even though he is opposite of the bigger guy who was never seen, who made a better place nobody has never seen.

Merry SantaMas

even more Jake, the red suit and presents derive from the Norse myths. An advocation of Odin (Red Odin) during the long and very cold winter nights roamed on earth "taking" the old people and left presents to the young to console them...

So, as almost everything in Cristianity, Santa Claus is nothing more than a syncretism of pagan beliefs with a very thin paintcoat of sainthood.

@RamFla

If you ask many christians what a yule log is, or what christmas trees are about they simply don't know and will generally either make something up, repeat what their pastor told them, or shrug.

They don't know the history behind the "christianization" of nordic peoples and the adoptions in place to speed their transition. What's even more obfuscated is that transition and adoption from Roman mythos during the time of Constantine.

Interesting ->

Pasta be upon you, my child.

May you both be touched by His Noodly Appendages!

I just love how tolerant the vine regulars are. Never miss a chance to degrade and make fun of someone else's beliefs. Firstly, this is not art. Secondly, the jackass that created it gave no thoughts to anyone but himself. Why should kids have to see this image? They grow up and learn the truth about Santa, but they don't need this type of imagery to go with it. And don't even go down the Jesus path because that has NOTHING to do with this article.

Alfredo or Marinara?

"and many many meatballs of the seasoning, everyone"

- Not-so-Tiny Tim

Griff999 has a point.

All other issues aside, little kids should have a short time before they have to deal with all the controversy and messiness of adult life. The display was in poor taste, and I suspect the "artists" knew it. The twn should just keep the civic buildings secular. The rest of the town could be awash in decorations and desecrations of every stripe.

Given that Christmas was a religious holy day for centuries, until commercialism took it over, I think you have the cart before the horse. There is no reason that Christians can't celebrate Christmas without buying into the rampant consumer crap that even some atheists despair of. I like the religious - and secular - aspects of the season, and balance the two.

@Hans-285771

I think you miss the point entirely. This was on a court house lawn. A government building and grounds.

Provocative or not, it's making people face the issue of endorsing a particular religion which is still unconstitutional. Anyone is free to practice their particular mysticism however just not on or in a taxpayer funded municipal building.

Why does it need to be there so bad? To help with the argumentum ad populum?

Hans:

The holidays came at the winter solstice way before Jesus. There is no reason Christians can't throw their hat into the shortest-day-in-the-year ring as well but why would you want to? In ancient times I guess it made sense so that they could stomp out other competitors but I would argue that doesn't make sense today. We know it's the wrong day and the wrong month for Jesus' birthday. Why keep arguing for the wrong, overly crowded, day? Pick the real day and keep it special. Wouldn't that also be easier for the children of Christian parents to understand as well?

Ghost, in Hans' defence I think he was addressing my point and it was I that went off topic.

I am a christian and I see exactly what your saying North. I think this wasn't done to make a statement from the atheist community, I think it was done purely to cause an issue. And if this is any kind of reconcilation of my religion for you, if my portion of the protestant regilions (to be more specific I'm Baptist) weren't so segregated then people might actually want to try church.

One church disagrees with how the music is represented (by drums and guitars and more contemporary christian music than old gospel hymns).

One church uses a diffrent bible because the King James is to difficult to understand.

they all need to just stop!

Jess:

OK now I am way off topic but to address your coming together issue: the whole protestant branch was formed by breaking away and rethinking Christianity; the idea of rebeling is ingrained in you. Perhaps you should all try expecting and accepting differences in interpretation of the bible rather than trying to force the diversity out. Maybe moving Christmas to July is an issue you can rally around.

Back on topic: I am against religious displays at govenment buildings so obviously a display that purposely targets its insult at one religion is wrong. (on government property) This display is as offensive as posting the ten commandments in a court house.

What about the banning of the 10 commandments from police stations and courthouses because it violated "separation of church and state". But the same constitution that bans a Christian from expressing his beliefs is the same constitution that protects an atheist's right to mock other's religions. Am I the only one who finds that the constitution is grossly being misinterpreted.

There is a misinterpretation of the constitution, John, but I'm afraid it's on your part.

Because the constitution is designed to favor one group over another? Why is there a such a strong anti-Christian push in our nation these days, and how can they claim that the constitution supports it?

@

John Doe-2241225

Banning the 10 commandments? What about the other 603?

I wonder. Are these punishable crimes?

- Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

- Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

- Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me

- And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

- Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

- And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the Lord thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

Which of those has anything to do with modern law?

Moreover, maybe we need more strict morality like here in the bible?

(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

Hey, we get to keep women and children. Sounds like a superior morality model to me.

It would be much easier to get rid of religion if christians actually read the bible. I wasn't an atheist until I did :)

Mrs. Claus told him he had to lose weight this year.

@fawn: my thoughts exactly. Now had it been a "nightmare before christmas" theme, I would have been all for it.

A person's rights end when they infringe on another persons rights. This display is so offensive to me and my religion that I can barely swallow. If Christian group had made a display that proclaimed or suggested that all none believers will be going to hell on government property that would have been taken down right? If those people don't celebrate Christmas FINE then don't but leave those who do in peace. To do anything else is harassment towards Christians.

And what rights are being infringed upon, J?

JCurtis - Wow, and where is this "I'm offended, take it down" game supposed to end? This is still a free country. Deal with it.

I am not religious but I also will not be labeled as an atheist,I just see no proof to any religion,that being said.That display was over the top .There should be no religious displays on government property period.If you want to believe in the christian god or Jesus or the purple unicorn in your garage that is your choice.I prefer to believe in finding a solution to everyday issues.Peace

I too am a non-believer but refuse to be associated with atheism. But 85% of Americans profess to believe in the existence of a higher being so I feel the majority rules. If the majority wants to put a religious display on public property, pray in school or wherever, that's fine with me, they are in the majority. But please respect my belief as well.

"so I feel the majority rules."

Death to those who oppose the church.

Burning women as witches.

Slavery.

Denying women the right to vote.

Racial segregation.

Jim Crow laws.

Making mixed race marriage illegal.

All things majorities at the time strongly supported.

The bill of rights do not only apply to the majority. There is a legal term "Tyranny of the Majority." Unmitigated majority rule is simply an appeal to strength, not moral legitimacy. If the majority wanted to kill all redheads, it would still be ethically wrong. Just leave the churchy stuff off the courthouse grounds, then nobody with an ethically arguable position is offended.

As much as some of the religious hate government, they sure want to get involved in it.

Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, render unto the Lord.....

Nicely said!

Wait, what in Sagan's name does the lack of a belief in deities have to do with the economy?

Unfortunatly we all insult each other weather it is religion or race,ethicity,or were you are from.

Take with a grain salt as they say. Don't sweat the dumb @!$%#.

Ask the dealers of the "opiate of the masses."

I would think that a crucifix with a dead, tortured, bleeding man on it would be more traumatizing to young children than a nice, clean skeleton.

Oh, I agree.

Looks to me like he was a "Drunk Santa Leaning on a Cross"... That's appropriate for that area

Merry Christmas Virginia

http://www.toilette-humor.com/christmas/WhiteTrashXmas.shtml

Virginia,,,, the only state with a totally gay flag, a bull dyke standing over a man she slayed

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Virginia.svg