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The skeleton in a Santa suit didn't survive for long outside the Loudoun County courthouse lawn, but it generated plenty of controversy in Leesburg, Va.
The skeleton was nailed to a cross on Monday by a mother and son associated with an atheist group, one of the nine approved displays for the Christmas season. But the macabre Kris Kringle was not standing for long. Someone tore the skeleton down, sparking a debate about free speech.
It's not a new argument. In 2009, Christmas displays on the courthouse lawn were banned after the constitutionality of a Nativity scene was questioned. Last year that decision was overturned, and 10 displays were allowed on the lawn based on a first-come, first-served basis.
Leesburg council member Ken Reid spoke out strongly against the skeletal Christmas display. "I think that it's just extremely, extremely sad," he said, "that somebody in this county who would try to basically debase Christmas like this. This really crossed the line."
After laying face down in the grass for several hours, the Santa-suited skull and bones was taken away on Monday night.
"The message to me at least," said Jonathan Weintraub, of the group NOVA Atheists, "is that the meaning of Christmas, which is about faith and family, is dead and has been replaced by commercialism."
Read full coverage on NBCWashington.com
According Julie Withrow, a Loudoun County administrator, the display belonged to Middleburg resident, Jeff Heflin Jr.
She told the Loudon Times that Heflin described the display in his application as an “art work of Santa on a cross to depict society’s materialistic obsessions and addictions and how it is killing the peace, love, joy and kindness that is supposed to be prevalent during the holiday season.” Heflin was not part of any organization and sponsored the display himself, the newspaper reported.
The display was discussed Monday night at a Loudoun County Board of Supervisors meeting, where it was labeled "provocative" and "obscene." In the meeting, some suggested a complete ban of public displays in front of the courthouse.
County officials are still meeting to decide on what to do with the displays.
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This was made to offend, not to make a statement. If it was made as a statement all they had to do was put a piece of cardboard on the front of it with the words, "The meaning of Christmas is dead!" They didn't though. They knew what they were doing, and when called out on it they yelled 'Freedom of speech!", "Freedom of speech!" to cover it and then the NOVA atheists came up with excuses for their intolerant act. They are no better than WBC with this stuff. These type of atheist preach that religions are all intolerant and brainwashing, then they go and do this and act just as intolerant and make speeches that are just as brain washing as they called religion. If religions were a race then these atheist would believe they are superior to all. I know not all atheist are like this, and i know there are some good ones out there with common sense, but these people are making them look very bad. Also, before the christian hate posts, I'm a deist.
man during this time of the year i realize how annoying athiests really are trying to posion the minds of anyone on the fence about the religion. oh and to anyone i might have offended...... get over it.
... If this is how they treat the atheaist, by putting this on the top articles page!, then who's to say that nativity scenes are allowed? Its honestly the same. I believe in the truth which is that Jesus Christ came to Earth to save us from sins. He died on the cross and rose from the dead and is in heaven know preparing a place for those who love/seek Him... I don't find it wrong that they would publicly display their religion because we do the same! but...what about the kids?? If the Atheaist were to do that (which they did obviously) then they probably should have used a little more common sense since there is a 99.9% chance that, besides adults, kids will see it too.
Atheism is my religion just as not smoking is my dirty habit. I usually don't smoke 2 packs a day after a frantic day of my hobby, not collecting stamps.
Paul N
Loved your reply so much I think when I retire I’ll go back to college & become a child prodigy!
Stuart - You might need some faster-than-light neutrinos to pull off that trick. I'll send you some when I get home. They should arrive yesterday.
dirtydog200
"I always get an internal chuckle when I hear an atheist tell me that they are good people. I always wonder,why would you be a good person if there's no punishment for things done in secret? If I were an atheist I would do unmentionable things, since I already don't believe in most of man's law. I am an ex-heathen."
@dirtydog200 Are you serious? Just because we are atheist does not mean that we don't know right from wrong. Also, it does not mean that we don't care either. Atheists have morals too, and of course we don't commit unspeakable acts "in the name of God", which in centuries past, people have done. Oh, and the last time I checked, the majority of the prison population in the United States are of Christian faith!
So you have morals? Christians have set Morals. With Atheists you have no set morals they can change day to day depending on what new perverted idea you have. Today its OK to be Gay next year it will be OK to have sex with a minor, the next year it will be OK to have sex with your dog! You have no set morals and Christians do. That's the difference between Christian morals and Atheists morals!
A reply to the reply: Are you smoking pot? If they are of Christian faith, then they either are mostly not real Christians (please go consult your local pastors for definition of Christians) or they have come to Christ during incarceration. Atheists have morals certainly, but whose standard? If there is no higher Authority after death, one can do whatever acts (moral standard is relative for atheists) they deem moral. Christians have committed atrocities certainly, AGAINST God's will. In fact, the entire Bible is about God love for His people to repent and return to Him and His Way. Christianity is not about who has higher moral ground although the true followers certainly should do better because God is Holy and so should His children. More importantly it is also about life transformation going from lower to higher standard and know that God is the only true God and Christ is sent by Him. Pertaining to the article, what does an atheist have to display for their belief? Nothing, because they don't believe in anything above humankind (oh, sorry, maybe aliens, but it is hard to display one since we haven't actually ever seen one. At least Christ checks out historically-anyone has doubt please take a church history class for ample historic document providing much more solid proofs for Christ than documents on aliens).
What about the priests (Catholic and Christian) in the church that go about molesting and having sex with the altar boys...HUH? Yes, I am an atheist, and I know that child molestation is WRONG!!! You don't have to be a Christian to know that! Atheists do have morals, we just don't follow the "set" morals that are for Christians in the bible, especially since the bible is filled with immoralities!!
Morals change. I use the example of a Southern, Christian, church-going slave-owner from generations ago. Was he moral or immoral? Slavery was an accepted practice at the time. Are they all going to hell, or were they okay, because the morals were acceptable, at the time?
Morals change, even for Christians. Even amongst the denominations of Christianity, there are different moral standards. They all interpret the book differently, apparently.
*priests and ministers
I do agree that morals change. What I don't agree with, is that a lot of Christians follow a set of morals, because they have this fear of going to hell. Atheists have morals, and follow them because they don't want to hurt the people that they care about, and simply doing the total opposite is WRONG!! What is wrong with having "belief" in humankind, or having concern for it?
Atheists have morals set upon the social contract that has evolved with humankind.
Christianity's morality was crafted based upon this same social contract, only about 2000 years ago.
I do good works and avoid immoral things because I fear repercussions in THIS world, not some imaginary afterlife.
I want the positive responses from my good works to benefit me now, not when I am dead.
Christians really don't care about morals. According to christianity, the only thing that is important is to "receive christ".
So, heaven will be filled with murderers, rapists, warlords, pedophiles, and every despicable creature you can imagine - as long as they accept jesus christ into their hearts before they die.
Oh, I guess if you are Catholic, there's an extra step - you have to ask forgiveness for your murders, rapes, war crimes, etc.
@ Humbleservant999
Numbers 31:17-18
17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
So, tell me, how is THAT love?
Though you all have good points, let's not forget that the impetus for the article is that some atheists feel the need to fervently preach disbelief of all divinity but raising humanity above divinity while frequently calling believers "fools." Yes, it is like Christians hundreds of years ago persecuting atheists which both are wrong. @ If the morals of Christ for 2000 yrs are the golden standard (for Christians), what is wrong for Christians to adhere to it? @Sblizzard- you must understand the Christian God from its totality theologically. That was instruction for the nation of Israelites for that time. Hypothetically speaking, let's say God is real (even for you), God has stated He commanded so because of their extreme wickedness not because it is for the Israelites' sake. Coming from God's view point, He is the Resurrection(no death in Him), judgment here on earth or in His spiritual realm makes little difference to Him. It is for none believers who believe that death is the finality for mankind that this treatment is hard to accept. Remember, the judgment is God and His solely. It is not for any man to claim killing in the name of God which many did and still do. As for argument regarding crazy people kill in the name of God, how do we know... yea that is for later discussion because the argument can just go on and on.....God has a set purpose according to His timing and plan ( please refer to Acts 17 sermon on Mars Hill and 1 Corinthians 13 to understand God's love from a different angle).
The impetus for the article was the desecration of an atheist display by a bigoted christian woman.
Christians already had two displays at the courthouse - a nativity and a christmas tree.
This woman was so intolerant of opposing viewpoints, she attacked the atheist display, which later seems to have disappeared (stolen?).
Had the atheist display been left alone, we would not see any articles in the news.
So, this article isn't about atheists supposedly preaching.
This article is about intolerant christians attacking atheistic holiday displays, trying to silence an opposing viewpoint.
Stop trying to warp the article to make christians the victim here.
Regarding the slavery issue, the Bible doesn't condone slavery but God deals with mankind in temporal and moral progression. The Bible gives instruction on how to deal with contemporary culture and custom. Such as the case of divorce which God doesn't approve of divorce but Moses gave divorce papers because those Israelites' hearts were harden and set; so rather then forcing the spouses to live in relational hardship, he disapprovingly let them separate. Please read the Book of Philemon for a better understand regarding this issue. God allowed the Israelites to suffer as slaves in Egypt for over 400 yrs before freeing them (sounds familiar to parts of US history of slavery?) Read Leviticus 25 regarding slavery. God demands kindness in progression in teaching mankind to be intrinsically kind, not just through the Law and perform good deeds externally. So for Cassivella to say that heaven is full of despicable creatures is show ignorant of Christ's redemptive power and purpose. Please read John 17 esp. v. 3 to understand better what is eternal life according to God. As I have said already, it is not a moral competition that one with higher moral gets into heaven. Eternal life is about know the Truth- John 17 and John 14:6. Sorry that I cannot elaborate everything or simply on comment blog. God has been poorly represented by many so called Christians. One must know God for who He is through the Word. Please check Him out on your own rather then see Him who is infinite and judge Him through the lens of His sinning and imperfect children.
Keep rationalizing to yourself...
You've already admitted the book is rather out-of-date. Leviticus is really not applicable in today's society.
Besides, you seem to pick and choose which parts of the old testament you wish to keep. So, you can go to Key West and eat coconut shrimp because Jesus died for your sins and created a new covenant, but you still want to hold onto the parts that you think are against homosexuality (the actual greek tells a tale against going "a whoring", nothing to do with homosexuality).
So, some consistency would probably help with the hypocrisy.
But really, the despicable creatures are allowed into heaven. Jesus is magically going to redeem them and turn them into good little angels?
Jesus is a cop-out to the Jewish faith. Those who could not keep the old covenant with god needed Jesus to re-write the contract. Conveniently, Jesus dying magically made most of what was a sin no longer a problem. Just doesn't seem like an honest way of worship.
Dear Cassivella,
Please read my 1st comment clearly. What is an atheist to do with such a display? Isn't the honest purpose to mock Christians or trying to make a malevolent contention? If you believe in nothing, then display nothing. Or is atheists' god a skeletonized santa clause? Forcing religious people to your same belief of nothingness by mockery is just as bad as Christians' oppression of atheists intention wise. It is the duty of Christians to preach the Gospel. Does atheists have the alike commandment from the all power Nothingness? Who really is the intolerant one? Why do some atheists like to use entrapping trickery as such to entice a response from Christians? So you can attack and mock Christians for their "foolish" belief and show your superior moral and intellect. Deep down you have such a urge to show the "ignorant" religious people, that truth of yours, that you don't realize you are spread your own gospel of blasphemy and spreading the truth of nothingness. Another word, atheism is in its self a religion. I know, I used to be an atheist. My atheist buddies and I loved to mock God and religious people of all kind all the time. It is arrogance, perhaps subconsciously. May you find inner peace and true meaning in your life wherever you are seeking.
Atheists don't necessarily believe in nothing. And there are also plenty of non-christians in the world who have strong belief systems, which you are grouping into atheism.
This display is a piece of artwork depicting the commercialization of a former religious holiday and the hypocrisy involved. Personally, I think the cross is just the stand for the skeleton.
No atheists are trying to force their beliefs upon anyone else. They are simply asking that you recognise that there are plenty of opposing beliefs in the world.
Since christians are mandated to proselytize, and since christians are also non-henotheistic, by definition a christian is going to be intolerant towards non-christians. This is a simple fact: christianity is an exclusive religion and a religion based upon bigotry.
My spiritual belief system recognises that there may be many gods worthy of worship. There are also many non-personal-god belief systems that are worthy as well. Everyone will find their own path, and no one should be forced or coerced into a religion, including children.
Statistically, atheists/non-christians are better educated and more intelligent than christians. They are also more open-minded.
You will also find that many atheists/non-christians are better versed in the bible and the history of christianity than christians are. Christians tend to take great offense to this, as providing facts in the presence of their dogmatic beliefs is considered an attack to them.
Facts aren't an attack upon a religion or a person. Facts simply are. If one is so insecure in one's religion that a discussion on a topic such as the "stauros" is intimidating, then perhaps one should re-examine one's faith.
You will find that nearly anytime you see an atheist speak out against a religion, it is in response to a bigoted comment.
I did not start any comments on this vine. My comments are all responses to the hatred that is being preached here by supposed christians.
I do feel it is necessary to speak out when someone says their religion is compelling them to commit crimes, do violence upon another human, or completely wipe out everyone who is not christian.
The biggest problem here is that atheists/non-christians are willing to change their beliefs based upon the facts that are presented.
Christians require no facts for their belief system, and thus are completely intolerant to anything that opposes the viewpoint with which they have been indoctrinated.
These are not attacks. These are simply facts.
"No atheists are trying to force their beliefs upon anyone else. They are simply asking that you recognise that there are plenty of opposing beliefs in the world." Yea, but if you know Christianity is monotheism, why are you so staunchly forcing Christians to recognize other religions? So you are a polytheist forcing Christians to accept other gods? Logically, can there be multiple truths about the origin of creation (whether scientifically or theologically)? Mankind is sinful religious or not. French Revolution, Communism, Khmer Rouge, Nazis (heretics, not real Christians in my view), and many other none religious causes also have done great deaths. Violence in mankind is not an exclusivity of religious ones. Christian intolerance is only doctrinally which is intrinsic in its monotheistic belief. One true God. Why is it alright for you to believe in many gods but I must recognize more than one? Real truth (a paradox phrase perhaps) to me can only be One logically. You can decide whether it is bigotry with one Truth or openness with many truths, which to me means you still have not find it yet. You are versed biblically and perhaps even in Greek(although your translation from which manuscripts leaves the accuracy in question; however, I will leave that debate to the theologians or seminary professors). However, perhaps a more in depth look into the theological realm might give you a different insight somewhat. God is Spirit and only His Spirit can show us that He wants us to be just, kind, and walk humbly with Him (Micah 6:8). We will not truly understand God if we use human logic and literary critiques to see if He is qualified to be called God. If you are familiar with Acts 17 or Colossians 1, the purpose of God is clearly stated. You can disagreed but please do consider it. Redemption is about God's righteous wrath regarding mankind's sins pacified through the death of Christ as propitiation. It requires true repentance of hearts which Christ judges; not just random babbling of verbal confession as a convenient escape clause. Is the Almighty God so easily fooled by mankind's lip service? If you believe so, then you need to reexamine your definition of god. BTW, the so called facts formulated by mankind are only good until we discover newer or augmented information. It is only factual to the limit of human understanding like the earth was flat(believed by all back then not just the religious dogmatics), but the 1st orbital trip photos dispelled that even for those who don't understand astrophysics. So I won't put so much faith into something that are mutable according to human intelligent. Again, the Bible is not out dated but it describes God's timely plan accordingly. You just need to see which time period we now belong to accordingly to see if the teaching makes sense or not.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21
18If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them,
19then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city and unto the gate of his place.
20And they shall say unto the elders of his city, `This, our son, is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.'
21And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, so that he die. So shalt thou put evil away from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear.
I don't care how you interpret this, it is still WRONG! Sadly, this kind of crap still happens today because some people believe they are following the word of god.
Oh, whats even better about this is in the Ten Commandments it states "Thou Shalt Not Kill". Another translation would be "Thou Shalt Not Murder". Either way, it is still hypocritical.
Humble
This isn't a mono- vs. polytheistic debate.
It's a debate about henotheism.
I'm not asking you to worship any other gods. I'm asking you to respect that other religions/belief systems have gods or other concepts that are worthy of worship.
However, Christianity is perhaps the only non-henotheistic religion. Christianity does not allow you to be open-minded and view other religions as valid.
Christianity forces you to be bigoted and say that other peoples' gods are not gods worthy of worship, but rather they are demons that will force you into hell if you worship them.
That is the crux of why I disagree with Christianity. It is impossible for a christian to follow the tenets of the faith and not be a bigot.
My spiritual belief system recognises that there are many gods and other concepts worthy of worship, even those I do not personally chose to worship.
Even Judaism recognises that there are other gods of other peoples who are worthy of worship. They just feel that they are the chosen of the god of Abraham and they will put no other god before him. But, they do not demonize other peoples' gods.
Islam is even more henotheistic than Christianity. At least Islam recognises that the other "people of the book" are worthy of redemption (though this stretches the definition of henotheism a bit in reality as Christians, Jews, and Muslims all worship the same god).
So, I don't understand how people can choose to worship in a religion where you have no choice but to be a bigot. I don't understand how you can choose to worship in a religion that forces you to impose your religious views on unwilling others by proselytizing.
I respect my fellow humans more than that. That is why I will never be a christian. I don't want to be a part of institutional prejudice and bigotry.
Cassivella,
Won't Christians be more hypocritical if we claim that we believe in One True God, but also "recognize" other gods? Then the problem is that you haven't found the Truth. Not believing other gods or being "intolerance" toward other religions is part of package in believing one Truth. Shouldn't Christians be afford the same freedom as you desire in believing or "respecting" other gods (though logically, I still don't now how that could work)? Granted many Christians throughout the history have gone too far against Christ's commandment.
Philosophically speaking, Truth, esp. God's Truth, is not up to debate or mankind's liking. You don't have to agree, but to have better discussion, try seeing things from the angle of whom you disagree; in this case God. If He is the Creator of the universe (for you please allow this hypothetically), He is independent of what we think, like, or want. If Truth(Christ is the Word of God and the Word came in flesh) is up to our liking or standard, then this god(s) of yours is the projection of human imagination as many atheists have accused what God is supposed to be.
Does it make more sense to believe in gods that are man made of stones, tree trunks, gold, or silver over a God who acknowledge that He is too great for us to see or understand that earth cannot contain Him? If God is the Creator of the universe(s), He is too great beyond our understanding and command. If you see things from God's angle to the best of human limitation, then many things in the Bible which is the inspired Word of God would make logically sense even if you don't necessary agree with the way He goes about it (like Sblizzard's reaction).
As for Islam and Judiasm, you are quite wrong in my view, but an open and honest discussion in this form/forum is not possible. I have done some study on this issue (books from Middle Eastern scholars not just Western in order to minimize bias); and the fact that I don't feel comfortable to speak freely should give you some hint of what I think and discovered.
Sharing the Gospel and forcing it upon unwilling people (please define "forcing") are different approaches. When I was an atheist, I feel that Christians are annoying almost to the level of stalking, but in a loving way; sort of like that kind but bothersome relative if you know what I mean. However, I am pretty sure we haven't cut people's heads off or bomb them until kingdom come in recent history.
Rejection and bashing of Christianity is quite prevalent nowadays. In fact there seems to be much more of this then evangelizing nowadays in most of mainstream media comment forums. So I think the table has turned around. Christians are and will be persecuted in increasingly greater degrees. Intolerance of Christianity because of its theological intolerance, what irony! Pretty soon, there will be religious thought police force making sure Christians, a monotheistic faith, are "opening up" to worship other gods. Funnily things do come in full circle, because this is the precise type of environment in which Christianity blossomed. "The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it (John 1:5 NASB.)"
"Thou shalt have no other gods before me..."
Doesn't the book seem to at least acknowledge other gods, just that you can't put them higher than YHWH or whatever? It doesn't say "there are no other gods besides me". It just says don't put any of the other ones above him, right?
dAt crAzy bOK
"Thou shalt have no other gods before me"- it is a translational issue in my view. Just like the word "Lord," it doesn't always refer to Christ. The original Hebrew or Greek words are various in referring to "sir, master, high officials, and etc," but when translate into English, the translators used Lord for them. The NLV translates this as "thou shall have no other god but me." This is a better translation of the intended meaning in my view. It is not an acknowledgment of other gods, but a commandment to not call the fallen angels (higher and more powerful beings than humans, ex-servants of God) gods. The usage of "gods" is in reference from human stand point because we call the fallen angels "gods," not that God acknowledge them as gods. John 17:3 states clearly that there is only one True God. Here is a good link with various translations and commentaries- In addition, since YHWH is the highest, what He said counts. HE is the one True God. If you have access to consult a theologian or biblical scholar, you should look into it more. Acts 17 Paul's sermon and John 10:34 and on are good reference passages regarding this issue.
dAt crAzy bOK
The MSNBC forum posted my comment before I finished editing it. Anyway, here is a link you can go to for more in depth, expertized views. I think the key to your comment/question is that people have different definition of God/gods. The key for Christians is to only acknowledge YHWH (the Supreme Being who cannot be described properly in human language and all powerful) as God to worship and not seek other lesser beings to worship, fellowship, or association.
I'd really be interested in reading that link. Are you still new here? You can't start posting links immediately. I'd honestly like to read it, though. If you could repost it without making it a link, I can copy and paste or whatever. I'm definitely interested.
Hey dAt crAzy bOk,
Sorry, I am new. So apparently, I didn't know that the link won't post. No wonder it keeps on disappearing. The link is, bible.cc/exodus/20-3 , (you may need to add "htm" after 20-3).
Yeah, you can't post links until you get out of the greenhouse. I'm not even sure what that is, actually, but that's what I have heard, anyways.
Dang, dude er... or dudette. You rock. That's an awesome link. I am very into the historical aspect of the Bible and other religious texts, and language, as well. I gotta admit, I don't read or speak Greek, Hebrew, or Latin.. heh. Who does?... So I'm usually stuck at www.biblestudytools.com looking for translations and commentary as to what the original text was trying to say. It's nowhere near as well-put-together as that link, though. Yours even includes apocrypha. That's pretty impressive. I really appreciate the link. I'm fascinated.
I think you were right, as far as the intentions of that passage. That's Hosea 13:4, and it clearly states that you should acknowledge no God, except for YHWH. Your link also mentions the polytheistic religions of the time which God, or the author, was clearly trying to distance himself from. That's interesting.
Thanks for the link. Now I've got a few more passages to look up, as I am curious what the commentary will say.
Just another scumbag, not worth anything, come and see me in NY and I'll personally nail YOU to a cross!
i'm an atheist i found this to be in extremely poor taste. i would have taken it down too. santa claus has nothing to do with christianity- santa claus is about childhood and magic and fun. i did the santa claus thing full on with my kids, just as my mom did with me. i did not feel lied to as a child, i felt wonder and excitement. as i got older i felt more grown up to be "in" on the secret and would never have violated that sacred trust. i gave the magic of santa claus to my children and we enjoyed every minute of it. i look forward to sharing santa claus with grandchildren. shame on the people who did this.
What did Jesus ever do for Santa on his birthday?
Lol. Well played.
What is happening to free speech ? That skeleton santa, told us more about our selves , than others can tell us . The rules about displays , were clearly laid out . Nine more displays, would have said ' Welcome : to our world ." K G K
Wow! Can’t believe how many satanic pagan like people are out there. Christians who accept & worship the Lord Jesus Christ, the one true God, sent to earth on Christmas to suffer & die for our sins so we can go to heaven certainly have their work cut out for them selves. After reading many of these post, I now understand why there is so much crime in this country. Think I to will do what ever it takes to ‘go to hell’ cause I certainly don’t want to be caught dead with any of these pompous christian wankers
Stuart, Christ loves you too, please read a Bible. We all fall short of what our heavenly father wants for us, so don't judge God by his servants.
R H-1492728 -
christ does not love me, I have read the bible & plan to fall as far short of your heavenly father as possible. the differeance between you me is, your god gave you a bible, my god gave me a brain
stuart pitt
"Wow! Can’t believe how many satanic pagan like people are out there."
I highly suggest you do your research before comparing atheists to satanists and pagans. Atheism is the lack of belief in a god, deity, all mighty and all powerful being. Which means we also don't believe in heaven or hell, or even the devil. Pagans and Satanists have a deity or deities that they believe in.
sorry SBlizzard - read what I wrote again? I never compared atheist to satanist or pagans?
My mistake, I apologize.
To very roughly paraphrase George Carlin:
"God created you from the dust of the earth. He gave you a soul and He gave you free will. But if you don't belong to the right church, eat certain foods He also created but says you can't eat, or you use your God-given free will to come to the wrong conclusion about Him and/or His son, He will throw you into a fiery pit for eternity where you will burn and suffer for the rest of time.
But He LOVES you!"
And sorry, but to stay on topic, the woman who tore down the skeleton should be tracked down and charged with vandalism and destruction of property.
but if she didn't tear it down, we wounldn't have anything to write about?
That right there! That is part of the reason why I am atheist.
@stuart pitt: I think the spectacle of a skeleton Santa hanging on a cross in a public square would have made it into the media in one form or another, even if it hadn't been vandalized.
stop the hypocrisy - grew up in berkeley california, that sort of stuff was common everyday stuff!!!!
@stuart pitt: I lived in Northern California for several years, and visited Berkeley frequently. There has to be more one-way streets there than any place else in the country.
yeah, there were a lot around the east end of telegragh & the people park area but the rest of Berkeley was pretty normal
I'm a Christian but I still see the guys point. If you try real hard, you can usually see things from other peoples point of view, agree with them or not. It was kind of a creepy message, but hey, they said "first come, first serve" and, to be honest, why is a skeleton Santa offensive to Christians anyway? Santa isn't what Christmas is supposed to be about, right? Oh, there ya go, the guys message!
Yes, Virginia, there is a good point to what he did.
So, and I'm hoping this is non-offensive to Christians and other believers/non-believers alike, peace, good will, and love to all. Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas.
The message I get from this artwork is "Atheists are seriously adolescent."
Wow really what a topic but you know this hole thing about religion and such about a skelington clause is a verry tuchy subject, but to be honest if I seen something like that in my city I would tear it down myself. It dose send the wrong kind of message to are children. My daughter is only just beganing to learn about Christmas she is 16 months old. I would not whant to terify her with something like that. I mean hounestly have your views but plz think first about how you are going to display them. Lets not forget about are futer generations and how are desicions may effact them now and later on.
Well, the whole thing was in poor taste. Doesn't mater if you believe in God or not, it was downright tacky. I can see why it was torn down, it was not a statement of opposition to the message, it was a statement of taste. BTW, all the religious folks out there wanting proof there is no God, where is your proof there IS one? And please, don't tell me it's in the Bible. That is a little like saying Chevy is the best car on the market because their pamphlets say so. The Bible is nothing but an advertisment for Judeo-Christain beliefs. Give me something else.
"BTW, all the religious folks out there wanting proof there is no God, where is your proof there IS one? And please, don't tell me it's in the Bible."
Exactly!
Its all in the Bible if you believe.
Sorry, the bible is a book written by man. It is not proof that God, or Jesus for that matter, exists.
The *true* message here (in Virginia, anyway) is...You have the right to free speech ONLY if it meets societal norms.
Hey, I'm an atheist but I can't see what a skeleton in a Santa suit has to do with a lack of belief in deities. Seems like the people who created it (pun intended) were just being jerks and mocking other people's beliefs. That makes them no better than evangelizing born-again Christians or radical Muslims in my book.
There is no proof for and truly against any religious figure. Although whether I believe in anything at all is irrelevant to anyone here because my personal decisions upon the meaning of my life and what I hold as value should concern no one but myself for it has yet to harm anyone. The bickering between those who believe, those who dont and those who are so confused by life that they dont know what to decide, is one thats gone on for a very long time. People often bring in religion where it does not belong and often are ready to wage wars and heated debates over the subject. Also everyone is so quick to bring in freedom of expression and rights, but rights entitled to who and by what? A document written down that if truly desired can be drastically altered with consequences. It seems as if we live in a society where everyone is focused on the wrong things and not really on the more immediate and important factors. Religion trully shouldnt be seen as who's right or who's wrong but sadly thats what it has become. Personally t I enjoy learning about everyone's religion and customs no matter how absorbed because it is better to understand then to quickly outcast and become offended just for the fact of it going against your personal values as a human in this world. I do also agree with those who posted statements about how when concerning religion one should be careful about how they display their beliefs for although you have every right to express what you feel, there is a time and place for everything. Also expressining ones feelings does not validate rude behavior, whom ever would rudely do something with the intentions of offending, bothering or disrespecting someone else just to make a point is a very crude person. As for majority and minority human kind is one species we tolerate each other daily for when we dont as you see wars start, people die, and things just spiral into chaos. There really is no majority in a species although of different customs, ethnicities, colors etc we all are the same species. There are pros and cons to both things but to each their own, why worry so much about what someone chooses to believe if overall its not harming anyone or themselves at all? Religion is about a personal connection between you and whatever higher persona you place your hopes in not everyone else and it should never be used as a fuel for hate nor judgement. sadly we live in a society where everyone has a strong opinion and many get offended easily. We protest and sue for pointless reasons other then the fact that we can it may not have harmed us or upset us. Sure we have a right to express but should you be able to express something that intentionally is trying to tear down someone else because you dont agree. With that said there is an exception for most everything. Look at it this way there is no sure way of knowing whats out there and we'll just have to let the one thing we may agree on as a society is agree to disagree for no person is the same nor will they truly ever be. live your life for you, survive the trouble and hardships, realize your dreams and in the end when you die you'll get the answer but until then just let people believe in what they wish while you do the same. Basically just move on you'll argue about this for ages go take a break and breathe.
In God We Trust and I don't know about the rest of you but will pray for you! There is only one God and yes everything you need to know about life is in the bible! Give it a try and you will be amazed!!!! He is real!!!!
I am a happy atheist, have been since I was 8, although it was a little tough growing up in a "christian" family and community with so many telling me, "you are not really an atheist, deep down you believe as we do". News flash, I don't believe in the invisible sky fairy, be it yahweh, ganesha, thor, or any of the other myriad deities out there. I am happy because I have a great attitude, good friends, a good job, and... wait for it, MORALS!! That is right haters, most atheists have morals, without benefit of the flying spaghetti monster or his made up son. A lot of religionists also have morals. I am a good person and my friends, both religious and not, would agree with that assessment.
Morality was alive and well long before jesus did his thing. Morality comes from a wish that most people have to live together in some semblence of peace. Morality is nothing more than common sense. And to you religionists that think you have the moral high ground simply because of your delusional beliefs, bite me!!!! I am so sick of your ilk (certainly not all of you, thankfully) looking down on those of us that choose rationality to superstition. I choose to use my brain instead of the buybull to guide me through life. Many of you are so weak minded you must have a spiritual guide to tell you what to do, how to think, how to vote, where to spend your money etc. I choose free thinking to religious dogma.
As for tolerance, you reap what you sow. I am very tolerant of those that reciprocate, and not of those who hate me because I choose not to have an invisible friend in the sky. I truly believe rational thought, logic, and secular humanism will be our salvation, NOT religion.
One more thing, the person that put up this display was NOT affiliated with any atheist group. It was an individual. Can you hate filled religionists read anything but the bibble? Facts don't appear to mean squat to you, but then I guess that is what religion is all about, fantasy over fact.
how did you change you beliefs? Did you just not belive anymore or did you never even believe in the first place?
There was nothing hateful in my posting but believe what you want. I just think that a skeleton nailed to a cross dressed in a santa suit is very sick and am glad that someone tore it down.
I never truly believed in deity, I said I did to keep peace with my folks, but I thought is was hooey. It all seemed illogical and kind of childish, even for an 8 year old.
A skeleton nailed to a cross is humorous to me, but not appropriate for children. Children should be allowed their innocence, the real world will intrude all too soon. It is, however, not atheist symbology, as far as I know. Maybe just that santa and jesus are both laughable and absurd. I mean, come on, walk on water, raise the dead, loaves and fishes, burning bush, parting the waters, etc. How hokie is that BS. Kiddie tales, and not even good writing, boring and pretentious.
But... God loves you...
Kinda sorta loved this skeleton display thing because it was just so stupid. Whether you are a ‘child of abraham’, pagan, atheist, buddhist, wicca or what ever, I would suggest looking up ‘cargo cults’ especially the John Frum cult of New Hebrides during the Second World War. These are very innocent people trying to understand a world they have been thrust into? It explains a lot about the origins of religions. Me, I feel like this is a bunch of rubbish, love science, love life & mellow people, & as far as why we are here, future generations may explain that but I’m just cog along that path.
There is a GOD and you can beleive what you want but when he comes back you'll know him and be sorry you didn't beleive. SO HAVE A NICE DAY FOR THAT DAY IS COMING.
I don't need the invisible friend in the sky to get through my days. Too bad you are not strong enough to survive without a crutch.
Religionists use their weird beliefs to avoid responsibilty for the real world. They think they can pollute, over use resources, and generally rape the earth with no repercussions. All because their invisible friend is going to come riding in on a unicorn with an army of easter bunnies and smite the wicked (me) and rescue the righteous (you).
Religion is easier than reality for the weak minded, like you, Irene.
so you're saying all christians want to "pollute" the world and "use resources"?
lol. and you say that all christians are weak? faith in God makes you strong-minded to persevere through trials and tribulations, whether you have a medical emergency or death of a loved one.
happyatheist55, you are such a hypocrite with petty anger against your own christian family. i'm sure atheists would gladly "rape the earth". chinese industrialist atheists would cause pollution for money or wallstreet atheists who will gladly take any "resources".
irene - when exactly is this day that is coming? think I've heard several different dates depending whether you are a polygamist morman, seventh day adventist, Jehovah's Witnesses....
Stuart
I think it's kind of like Waiting for Godot, but without the benefit of having been written by Samuel Beckett.
brownsmith, I persevere through trials and tribulations without the crutch of religion. I am not in the least angry with my family, we have a great relationship. I am not even angry with religionists, but I sure seem to have pissed you off.
Probably time for you to go mumble into your hands to your invisible friend. I am sure your knees are getting wobbly. I am going to get some sleep, gotta work early.
Merry winter solstice, brown, maybe some day you will grow up and put away your childish beliefs.
I realized organized religion was a bad idea when I was about 7 years old.
I accidentally burned down my kitchen (I put the toast in, the automatic toast lower-er brought the toast down, the toast never came back up, caught on fire, caught the curtains on fire, caught the cabinets on fire, then melted the window).
My teen-aged brother was attending a church at the time.
"Ladies" from the church visited us, and they told us that if we would come to church, they would give us food.
The entire family would be forced to go each Sunday and Wednesday, and we would receive a small amount of food then - basically blackmail.
They weren't generous enough to simply provide us with any help without us committing to the church.
Even at my young age, I realized "hey, that doesn't sound very christian".
Also, those who are homeless who do not share christian beliefs, most of the time are REQUIRED to attend church to get help from a homeless shelter. That doesn't sound very christian to me either.
Yes, the Salvation Army is a horrible with forcing their beliefs upon people who are in no position to defend themselves.
Plus, the SA is notorious for discriminating against LGBT and non-christians both in hiring/work practices as well as with the people they are supposed to be serving. They have been sued (and lost) several times.
It's a sad religion that blackmails people who are poor and disadvantaged.
The atheist in me is fine with the display and actually finds it a little funny.
The mother is me is offended by it and wouldn't want any children to be seeing a dead Santa stabled to a cross.
Considering this is in a public place where children would be walking by and asking their parents why Santa is dead, horrified, I agree that it should have been taken down. Whoever did this was looking for some cheap public humor and is no more witty than your average practical joker. But to those of you crying out because an atheist did it are ridiculous too. If another Christian did this you'd be defending them to the hill saying it was a display connecting Santa Claus and Christianity.
All-around this debate is ridiculous. Let's all agree it was in particularly bad taste for a public area.
so is a child stepping on a landmine
It looks like an atheist's display.
Religion doesn't matter in this issue. In this country, there is freedom of religion and freedom of speech. I see nothing LEGALLY wrong with the display. People need to stop touting freedom only as long as it suits themselves and not anyone else. I live in a city where there is a giant 200 foot cross outside a particular church, visible from several main roads miles away. I see it every time I go to Home Depot for gardening supplies. Personally as an atheist, when I see it, I roll my eyes and snort in amusement. Would I prefer it wasn't there? Of course. It's an eyesore and it reminds me of the type of people I despise (attention whores). It's also mildly embarrassing when I have visitors from out of town see it on their way in, and they make jokes about me living in deep bible-thumping redneck country. However, do I protest it or otherwise try to have it removed? No. It's not on my property. Nobody is forcing me to look at it. It doesn't hurt me. I could care less. I respect their right to free speech, and I would hope they would respect mine if I wanted to display a skeleton Santa (I don't - I actually love Christmas). I don't need to force others to conform to my personal ideals in order to feel secure in myself. That is all.
This display served many purposes, not the least of which is to illustrate why "religious" displays don't belong on government grounds such as that of the court house.
Christians don't mind when a Christian display is on the courthouse lawn whether it is a nativity scene or a crucifix or a cross or something else. But, when some other belief system erects a "symbol" of their faith or lack thereof, it is then said to be offensive.
The obvious answer is to simply ban any and all religious displays on public grounds.