JM TX

We should throw the mother's corpse in the frickin TRASH! Oh wait... she wasn't serving in the military... my bad. WTF is going ON with our society????

..........Your worthless and irrelevant post may be one indication.

We don't know what kind of mental illness this woman had. We don't know to whom and how often her ex-husband and ex-mil reported her.

We don't know if she was doing okay, and her struggles to obtain food stamps for her family put her over the edge.

We don't know why she needed food stamps - if the father and grandmother were so concerned about the kids, why weren't they buying groceries for them?

It seems that the father and grandmother weren't THAT concerned. Sure, they can make all kinds of claims now - but true concern would have meant actively trying to remove the children from the home, making sure they were fed, etc.

Roadhouse,

I believe JM TX was referring to an article about the military dumping the remains of 123 killed-in-action military personnel in a dump - after having told the families they would be buried in a respectful manner.

I got one word for this situation: FUBAR.

the police had 4 hours to get to her. they should have taken the mother out. Even if she had been shooting towards the police trying to get to her, the kids would have still been alive. We have the technology where it would be possible to do this safely. And what happened to the social worker inside with her? Once the gun is pointed towards a child your safety is of no importance, she/he should have tried to save those kids especially as a social worker.

I cant say that you are wrong,, but were you there??? If not how can you say WHAT EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE DONE, another prob with our society is everyone always has the answers after it is over like they know what the hell they are talking about.. I would have helped if i were there but for me to expect someone else to risk there life and possibly leave their own kids orphaned becasue they try to subdue a lunitic that is not for any of us to judge,, really doesnt matter because the social worker was released earlier. A sicial workers job is not to risk their life to save others,, that would be military personnel or secret service..

What if the agency simply told her everything for her food stamps was done and hand her the card for them?

Granted, it doesn't matter now.

"...on so many levels"

Ram, that is such an annoying, overused cliche. If you have something to say, say it intelligently.

If you had read the story, she had let the supervisor go at 7:45. She shot her kids and herself at 11:45. There was no social worker to help the children.

Parents and children cases of this nature are extremist; some parents retain custody and people are in disbelief while others have CS called on them for the slightest of infractions, or percieved infractions. Extremism equates to a broken system, and we're seeing that in politics as well.

There's not a whole lot to go on here, other than referencing to the father's and grandmother's complaints and concerns. How far did they try to go with this, how unstable was this woman, how much is 20/20 hindsight.... not readily known. What I've inferred is that she is unstable, considered she couldn't take care of her own so took them out which does point towards more of the male complex of 'I've lost all and so will they and they can't do without me so.....' instead of seeing clear reality, however unpleasant or bleak.

Killing those outside the family for reason A or B shouldn't be an accepted norm or forgiven, but for most of us is more understandable than killing your own.... we can't wrap our heads around it. For that reason, mothers/fathers that kill are more likely to, if they haven't done themselves in, get a good shot at an insanity defense. By most of our standards, that is insane behavior.

Having said that, rather than hating on this woman perhaps anger should be directed towards a broken system; certainly, there are those that kill their children for romantic or other selfish reasons, are really just plain, worthless POS evil things but in this case it seems more of a disproportionality of how child services and those intertwined react and respond to varied calls of neglect, violence, unstability, etc... . Once again, common sense gets lost in the shuffle of beaurocracy and ineptness.

Sick. As a mother of two children myself, I'm appalled. Every other day I am reading about some crazy parent killing their child or family. How depressing.

People who have mental illness....don't understand society and it's rules. Duh-oh! What do you suppose "Mental Illness" means? The state failed her and her children by not seeing to it that whatever could be done, was done. My motto is "learn from experience". This need not happen again, but it probably will. Anybody ever said "you are your brother's keeper"? It is a shame the rich can't part with enough of the money, made on the backs of the poor, to help take care of them.

I am bipolar, amongst other things. If it wasn't for the generosity of Astra Zenica, I would be pushing around a shopping cart with everything I possessed in it. The anti-psychotic Seroquel, not only helps me think straight now, it helps me see what was going wrong in the past. Mentally ill people are not that way by choice.

According to the Center for Disease Control, American women kill more of their own children than any other mothers in the industrialized world.

Why isn't the National Organization of Women "in yer face!" about that?

anyone saying it didn't look liek the other family members cared enough to do anything... This could very easily have been somone with drug induced mental disorders. Often people who have others paying for living needs will still apply for food stamps and whatnot so they can trade food stamps for drugs. Also people like this are often very protective of others taking their kids from them even when they know they are doing a terrible job raising them. To shoot your kids ebcuase the government wont give you free stuff?? and to think they probly would have if she had given them the right information they needed.

THis mother was just crazy beyond help it's such a shame the children wern't saved.

The little girl was changing her facebook status as the event was unfolding. So I am assuming she had her own personal smartphone with her. So why did the mother need food stamps if she can afford to provide her 12 y.o. with a smartphone?

Yes, that mother may well have been crazy -- and desperate -- and in a terrible rage.

Her daughter lived with her for 12 years. For that child to write a post that she might die, she must have understood that this was beyond anything she had ever experienced before. How terrifying that must have been for the kids.

That her daughter turned out to be right was a horrible tragedy. If the mother had not carried -- and used -- a gun, this would not have happened the way it did. Sure, she could have used a kitchen knife or a clothesline to kill her kids -- but that would have taken more time, more thought, more physical involvement. Maybe she would not have done it.

The impulsiveness with which guns can be used -- and the irreversible harm they can do -- make guns terribly dangerous in the hands of people who are unbalanced.

you can blame social services, her husband, her mother, etc., however, my question is, how the hell did she get a GUN? maybe we should start putting the blame where it belongs, on a country that allows people to purchase guns so easily. thank you NRA.

Softdude, thank you for your input. As for those of you who want to know why the dad and grandma didn't do more -- they may have tried many things to no avail. Child Protection services will say it's not against the law to be mentally ill and nothing can be done UNTIL the kids get hurt. Police, judges etc. don't always believe what others tell them when the ill one's behaviors are 'way out there". It can take years before outsiders understand the severity of the situation. The one that is ill CAN'T see the error of their ways until they are stabilized. Been in a similar situation and it is hell on EVERYONE. Mental illness is NOT being addressed as it should in this country. There is no money and society still prefers to hide or ignore it rather than providing resources to deal with it. Don't assume that families aren't trying to protect the kids and help the one that is sick. That is rarely the case.

"

We don't know what kind of mental illness this woman had. We don't know to whom and how often her ex-husband and ex-mil reported her.

We don't know if she was doing okay, and her struggles to obtain food stamps for her family put her over the edge.

We don't know why she needed food stamps - if the father and grandmother were so concerned about the kids, why weren't they buying groceries for them?

It seems that the father and grandmother weren't THAT concerned. Sure, they can make all kinds of claims now - but true concern would have meant actively trying to remove the children from the home, making sure they were fed, etc."

Are you kidding me? You are making excuses for this sack of @!$%#ing @!$%# killing her kids? This bitch should have just blown her own @!$%#ing brains out why kill the kid?

softdude, did you even read this story? She was miffed about the refusal of the state to give her food stamps. Who exactly do you think pays for them? Not the poor. It's not my responsibility to see to it that people like you have free food and medicine and what ever the hell else you want. Get a job like the rest of us.

People who have mental illness....don't understand society and it's rules.

Why does she have to be mentally ill? Maybe she was just a selfish bitch. Not every murderer is mentally ill.

Mentally ill people are not that way by choice.

Agreed. I am bipolar as well, but unfortunately it has caused me to be less sympathetic towards people that use the 'mental illness' as a catch-all to negate personal responsibility.

how the hell did she get a GUN? maybe we should start putting the blame where it belongs, on a country that allows people to purchase guns so easily. thank you NRA.

Oh please, the gun-control crap again. We don't think people should be allowed to just buy a gun, and we do not object to background checks and gun registration. We learn gun safety as soon as we are old enough to understand, and it sticks. Our children know the dangers, and we also keep our guns in places that small children cannot get to. I have yet to see a child getting into a locked gun safe or a locked fireproof box. We learn proper handling at an early age.

The right to bear arms is important. I have the right to protect myself and my home and family from harm.

The problem in Texas is that there are not enough guns. Now, if the 12 year old and the 10 year old had been carrying their concealed pistols, they could have easily defended themselves by wacking their mommy.

Governor Rick Perry needs to get a handle on this. Parents in Texas are poorly educated and are too often gun-toting crazies. The children need to be armed, certainly no later than age 12. Gun safety and marksmanship should be a compulsory part of 5th grade in every elementary school in the Lone Star State.

Someone upthread asked why the father didn't buy groceries. Perhaps he did and she wouldn't take them because of her mental illness. Some people get very, very paranoid.

@Theresa Balbo, the Second Amendment gives her the Constititutional right own a gun, not the NRA.

The blame should be squarely on the mother's shoulders, she made the decision to go into the building with a gun. There was only ever one outcome and it wasn't her getting the services she felt she deserved.

When the story first came out there was no info on her mental state. No info on a criminal record either. Plenty of people with no history of illness or crime have murdered their spouse and/or their children. I had assumed this was another one of those tragedies that could not have been prevented regardless of what laws could be in place. However, if the father contacted social workers 3 times and the mom had a history of mental illness, then someone dropped the ball here.

What the media still needs to divulge is 1) what was the custody arrangement? and 2) was the mom ever officially diagnosed and treated for the alleged mental illness?

If the welfare spokesperson was correct and the only thing that kept the mom from getting food stamps was missing info on her application, then she probably did have some serious mental illness. I won't get into preventative changes that may have been possible to treat her, but what seems clear is that the cries for help from the Dad were dismissed.

What a terrible way for those kids to die. Knowing it was going to happen,

What are you talking about????????

the people who blame the gun or the NRA for this are morons. The gun does not make it easier to kill people. if you recall the people who blew the twin towers were not carrying guns.. they had box cutters. killed a lot of people with just box cutters. and how did she get the gun? well if you would pay attention to the news a little bit.. you would see that our own government just lost a large amount of weapons in that area. democrats were in charge of that project.. the ones that are supposed to be against guns.. put them on the streets. also.. had their been a gun in the office in the hands of a responsible person.. they could have stopped it... but you only see what guns do in the hands of a (in this case) mentally ill person.

To answer the question about the social worker who had been inside the room with mother and children:

Grimmer let a supervisor go unharmed around 7:45 p.m., but stayed inside the office with her children. Hostage negotiators stayed on the phone with Grimmer, reported the AP.

As to the Dad and Grandmother, they are negligent.

The children’s other grandmother told The AP her former daughter-in-law had a history of mental problems. Mary Lee Shepherd of Montana says she and her son Dale Grimmer, the children's father, had contacted social workers at least three times. She says they worried Grimmer could harm the children.

If this statement is true then CPS found that the children were safe in the home. They found "no cause" to remove the children. This mother was desperate. Her children needed food and if she couldn't get help, she believe the kids were better off dead than starving. She killed herself because what did she have left to live for?

I wasn't there, but I understand. My ex tried the same thing, telling a doctor that I was a negligent mother only to find out that he was more negligent than I. He knew the situation and did nothing to help. My kids weren't starving though.

Well Glenn, if we didn't know it before, you certainly confirmed that you indeed are an idiot. Sarcastic, toungue in cheek or not!!

happy42 - you did not have to go there.

After reading, and RE-READING this and the companion article, it is obvious that most commenters latched onto a single paragraph to support their own opinions, not studied what happened. I apologize for any spelling and grammatical errors in advance. And the only people who have called me an extremist, are those who are truely extreemely liberal or conservative. I am an RN who grew up in the inner city surrounded by gangs, and escaped from an abusive home when I was 17.

1) MULTIPLE reports that the mother (Grimmer) was a threat to the children, made by the MIL and father of the children. They were trying to work in a system that favors the mother having custody of children over anyone else. This is the case in most states, and Texas is one of the worst.

2) No mention of how she obtained the handgun she used to murder her daughter. It is much easier to buy one on the street than legally. And all the states bordering Mexico have more problems with illegally purchased & imported firearms. If the media had found she had purchased the gun LEGALLY, we all know that would be in the report, and the seller pillaried regardless of any lies she would have attested to on the federal forms required.

3) '"This wasn't like a knee-jerk reaction," said Baeza, adding that Grimmer felt she was owed restitution of some sort.' Whether she qualified for food stamps or not, DOES NOT MATTER! The application was denied in JULY, almost 6 months ago, because she did not provide the documents required. And the documents required are usually proof of residence and associated costs of living, proof of identity for all in the household including SS cards, proof of income for all in the household, and similar. Since it was only food stamps that were requested or denied, and the programs I am aware of already provide for "emergency assistance", she was not in immediate need.

4) 'she wanted "restituiton" for something'. She felt that she was OWED something by the citizens of the USA! It is time we get out of that mindset that you are owed something because you are in the USA. The constitution indicates only one group of people who are ENTITLED to something from the USA - it's VETERANS. Just because you will not work one, let alone 3 jobs at a time, or because you suceeded in making to age 65, does not entitle you to anything! I have seen in the last few years, people living on welfare getting more off the dole, than our servicemen and women get while fighting against our nation's enemies. In order to pay for my living expenses and go to college, I worked 40+ hours a week (yes, at night), was in the National Guard, and took every day job I could find. As of today, my wife and I live on about $30,000/year including my disability, and we raised 2 young men on that. Our "new car" is a 94 Suburban, the only thing we could find without having to take out a loan. Excluding medical bills, our total debt today is under $40,000 and most of that is the balance on our home.

5) She had time to plan this, and obviously planned on using the firearm to take people hostage. Her daughter knew she was in danger long before she was murdered by her own mother. Ask ANY mental health professional, emergancy services worker, and forensics/law enforcement professional - very few women use a firearm to commit suicide, most use some like of poison (including alcohol) or sharp cutting implement (knife, razor, etc). There are plenty of studies that make suggestions as to why, but the simple fact is that her using a firearm was part of a plan.

6) I cannot prove it, but it is my opinion that she planned to murder her children. Her daughter knew she was in danger. The children's father reported that they were in danger and that their mother was capable of killing them. And the MIL reported that the children were in danger. At least 3 reports were filed, although there was no mention of the time frame over which they were filed. Again, ask any person in personal security, the Secret Service, FBI, local law enforcement, etc. - if a person is willing to die to kill another there is very little you can do to stop them. This sounds like just that to me!

7) It also appears that she was trying to hurt the children's father. While I still bear the scars of being the victim of spousal abuse by my ex-wife, they are nothing compared to having your childran taken from you. And to have them murdered, knowing you were trying to protect them, has to be one of the hardest things of all. Grimmer did not hurt any of the welfare office, with whom she claimed to have issues with. She murdered her children and herself. There were no reports of "I cannot feed my children", "I cannot afford to live", etc. She appeared to attack the people she most wanted to hurt - her ex-husband, MIL, and perhaps her own children (probably because they were part of her ex).

8) Cell phone. While I agree that if you cannot afford groceries, you certainly cannot afford a high tech cell with internet capabilities, there is no indication of who bought it for the girl. It could have been a gift from her father, grandparents, or other relatives. Forget the cell phones. What it does do for us is give a little more information into the mindset of the players in this situation. The children were ignored ("bored"), and felt threatened. The only person threatening them was the mother - all the rest were out of the room/building.

I have no doubt that anti-gun groups will try to use this to try to get more laws that do nothing to the illegal guns brought in by gangs and drug dealers (using the same routes and methods), and that the liberals will blame the conservatives (especially Presidents Bush) for not having compassion and making her somehow poor. Both are ridiculous. I also have no doubt that the liberals will cause my comments to be collapsed because they do not like what I have said. Grow up, look at all of it realistically and honestly. The only one to blame here is the mother who murdered her own children. IF she could not afford to feed/house/cloth them, she was too greedy to let other family who could to do so.

"Streesed out, ex-husband not helpin me out, kids hungry, very hungry...can't take a job,kids need me...Government won't help me feed my kids....what am I gonna do about Christmas gifts...we don't even have decent clothes or food, and the kids are hopin for presents...can't tkae it no more..."

CPS tries to keep the family together. They have to investigate every call. If they found evidence of parental neglect or the children not being safe they would have removed the children from the home, at least temporarily. The final and permanent removal is up to the courts, not social service.

Besides all this, not one us was there or privy to what was really going on. Now we will never know. Why are we trying to second guess this tragedy?

Ok about the mental illness part of all this. Not every person with a mental illness is in the same category! A bipolar person is not the same as catatonic. Even with bipolar there are varying degrees. Some people with a disorder can take medications and function. While others cannot.
And there are many disorders out there besides Bipolar disorder. Some worse some not.

She might have been already 51/50 and not on any medications. Or refused to take them. Or was taking the wrong medications as prescribed by a doctor. and they made her worse off.

Frankly we do not know. Another sad day for the community and the family of those kids. And even the family of the mother. As sick as she may have been. Killing a kid is really out there.

To bad we live in a society that shuns people with mental illness as weak or just plain irresponsible. When science does show malfunctioning chemical reactions in the brain.

The most sick are those who deny they have a problem.

For 3 or 4 hundred dollars a month this woman and her kids will probably all be dead. Texas; Whiskey , Tango, Foxtrot!!! Just for openers how much money did they have to spend for these people's stay in the ER, CCU, and hospital after they were shot? How much money spent for all the cops and the swat teams presence at the scene. All tolled probably, hundreds of thousands of dollars. How many months of food stamps would that be worth. Texas is such a backward place!! I, for sure, will vote for rick perry now......not!!!

I want to know where the hell the article said the ex-husband was not helping the kids and where the hell it said he was not doing everything he could to get those kids. The article clearly stated that he had already filed complaints saying he felt the mother was a threat, and how do any of you know what else he had done? Damn, every time some whacko mother kills her kids the first damned thing you idiots do is say it was the Dad's fault. Some of you are just too stupid to live. Mothers can be just as neglectful, hateful, and plain damned mean as Dads can. To hell with the women's propaganda about how they love their kids more than the Dads ever could. It's a plain damned lie.

Like notasocialist said,how is it she couldn't afford food but the little girl had a smart phone with internet access? I'm sure the mom had one too. We've been a welfare state for so long everone thinks the Gubment owes them EVERYTHING! Well gosh,I don't get my freebies while I blow my money on cell phones and cable TV. These kids aren't worth much without the welfare,might as well get rid of them.

Not a Socialist-1286940

The little girl was changing her facebook status as the event was unfolding. So I am assuming she had her own personal smartphone with her. So why did the mother need food stamps if she can afford to provide her 12 y.o. with a smartphone?

I saw nothing in the article that said she was using a smartphone (which if she was, could have been a gift from a family member). I think it odd that you would have assumed that she did. I assumed that she was probably using the office computer there to log onto Facebook, pretty much the same way you can at my local library. Maybe the social worker left the computer or laptop or his or her own smart phone for the girl and her brother to use.

Also, most smart phones are free or very cheap with a two year service contract. Here, the monthly service fee for a smart phone is about a third less than a land-line's. However, if the family didn't have any phone, that probably would have been one more cause to snap. Pay phones aren't around anymore like they used to be when I was a kid, so how would she have been able to be contacted for a job? (I know, I know...any excuse to bash the mom.)

Answer me 1 question my friends when on Gods green earth would ever hear a story like this in any times past...I guess there's too many people for anyone to take charge.

Jan "death panels" Brewer cut most of the funds for AHCCCS here in Arizona....ask Gabby Giffords how that worked out.

I have a 25yo bi polar step son - any of you saying he has a right to own a gun, tell ya what, I'll be happy to send him to your home.

drain...my dad was bi-polar...it was bad enough all the trouble I had getting him "back" when he went off his meds...no one took it seriously until he did this...and anyone who says he should have been able to get a gun is an idiot.

The article states that the father and the father's mother tried three time to get help from the welfare community, afraid this woman would hurt her own children.

Another example of "I'm the the expert so I know more than you about your own family member."

They should sue this office and all those they sought help from.

The gun did not kill anyone, the Government did not kill anyone, the mother killed herself, her daughter and possibly her son!!! Quit bitching about the Government not doing enough for people and start doing something for yourselves and the Government so they CAN help those who NEED it!!! For those stuck on the girl having a smart phone, they are cheap and easy to get. Better question, if money or food was really the issue here, she could have sold the gun! Obviously the issue here was this woman was a cold hearted murderer. Anyone who would kill al child, especially their own, deserves nothing less than death. I am glad she saved the taxpayers some dollars by shooting herself. I am truly saddened for the kids and their surviving families.

We do not know all the circumstances. CPS either didn't find for the children to be in danger or, if they did, the courts didn't. This is fact. What happened is a tragedy. We can not pass judgment.

I'm betting all across the country, they are rewriting the hostage negotiation books right now:

"When a hostage is involved and the demands being made are for things which can be easily reversed, the hostage taker is most likely mentally ill. They are unlikely to be open to negotiation for long. Give the hostage taker everything that they want, free the hostages, THEN act to capture the hostage taker."

Meanwhile, illegal immigrants in your country benefit from the same exact thing that this woman would literally kill for. And she did. She erased her own life and the lives of two children from existence. Two children? Wow...

Once the gun is pointed towards a child your safety is of no importance, she/he should have tried to save those kids especially as a social worker.

Maybe for you buddy, but I have always lived by the motto every me for myself. I'm pretty misanthropic though, but I'm not a social worker and I'd be terrible at it. I do see the hypocrisy in that. You'd think that someone whose job it is to help people would care about kids.

Tad you may be heroic, but you would have been crushed by the stampede of the cowards.

So he can live with the fact his mother killed herself, his sister, and tried to kill him...and then he can be tossed around the foster care system where he will have a high probability of being abused? Then he can be released into society with a hardened heart where he won't be able to afford college or find a job?

Then, he'll ironically, find himself standing in the welfare line his mother had been standing in years earlier?

His grandmother and father are still living.

Unfortunately, Timothy may be better off if he passes away. He may be permanently brain damaged on top of the emotional scarring that he will endure if he survives.

If he lives and heals and manages to live a happy and fulfilling life, then that would be the ideal situation, but I don't see it happening.

weR - your post is a wasteland of supposition. You ignore the fact that the father is there. And two grandmothers. The child, if he survives, will be well cared for.

You have already condemned him to a live of nothingness. I pray he becomes an artist, doctor, engineer, or a brick layer, carpenter, electrician. As my wise Grandma Gracie said " work is it's own dignity".

Geez people! So much for the sanctity of life! The family obviously had a number of problems, but these posts are sick!

weRdoomed, don't be such a pessimist...

WeRdoomed: I take exception to your blanket statement that if the child goes to foster care he will be abused. I have been a foster parent to at-risk teens for many, many years, often without compensation if they were 18 but still unable to cope with functioning as an adult. All foster homes are not horrible places to be, nor do all people who are raised in foster care end up emotionally scarred and standing in a Welfare line. In fact most of "my" kids went to college or at least a trade school and are doing very well.

At this rate, I think it would premature to do anything but really pull for the little guy, whether you pray or just send strong willful thoughts to the Cosmos that he recover and be well. Poor little guy, what a horrible situation.

That's the spirit weRdoomed.....you'd rather see the kid die?!?!? Give him a chance....he could make something of himself.

Yeah I agree JFC some of these kids end up growing up and being advocates for abused and neglected kids. Some do real good in this world. I hope that poor child makes it.

I'm realistic. Everyone has high hopes for the kid. Has anyone started a fund for his recovery? I checked. No.

Any volunteers to mentor him? Visit him in the hospital? No again? Everyone busy?

If his father and grandparents were so capable of "raising him well" - why was he with a mother who needed food stamps? Why was he shot by her?

You "hope" he makes something of himself? Well, gee, way to hang him out to dry.

This story makes my heart hurt. These poor children! I don't understand how people can be so cruel to eachother. God must be weeping today.

I'm kind of jaded and pessimistic, but Doomed really takes the cake. First off Doom- you gonna go pull the plug?

You don't know A DAMNED thing. First, kids can be resilient. He might end up being a better person for our society than someone who would just wish a kid to die, so that he didn't have to face life. Again, not knowing anything, but still talking out your blowhole anyway, you ASSume that no one is doing anything. Your whole post is nothing but ASSumption based.

And based on your interpretation of life, and the world, I could see you being OK with the idea of killing off all children with bad parents. Orphans in the foster care system (good job good foster parents! I want to be like you) as well since you are basically saying they are doomed to be a blight on society. How far would you like to go Doomed?

As much as I dont agree with spreading hate (ie. your name)

I agree with you on this. No child should ever be put in that position.

It's truly sad, what is even more sad is the fact that the right will block any attempt to open the discussion as to how this lady was able to get a gun in the first place. Two more children's lives are taken by gun violence in what republicans wish to call the greatest country in the history of the world. Sad indeed.

What a sad sad story for this mother and children! She was so desperate she went back for help and was told what???? Sometimes one feels like there are no other outlets. I blame this DSS Office and if she and her kid would have been illigals they would have gotten everything!!! This is our country.. people have forgotten that! And as for mommy dearest inlaw.. if you knew it was that bad why didnt you and that daddy help?? God Bless the children and the mommy to

Rose Barrett

Rose there is No blame here except for the mother. No excuse,no sympathy, no one shoots children and gets any sympathy or understanding. Just condemnation!!! It doesn't matter what anyone else did or didn't do SHE SHOT THEM!!!

Dem- I love how you assume she even got the gun here in Texas, how do we know she didn't illegally bring it across state lines with her when she came from Ohio? And if she did get it here she should've used the money to buy FOOD and not a damn gun, hell she could've pawned the gun and put food on the table.

Rose- the dad and the grandmother called CPS numerous times in Ohio, crazy mom took off and the father was looking for her, they DID try.

There's no one to blame here other than crazy b*tch who murdered her children

Should have just gave the woman the food card then after everything had calmed down a little they could have scooped her up without incident.

Get the kids, huh? That is illegal to do, if their primary custodian is the mother. The system is set up to say that the mother is always the better care giver and that is not always the case. We need to start looking more objectively at who can care best for the children after a breakup/divorce, etc. and go with the capable parent no matter the sex.

This story made me so sad that you cannot believe. Go home and hug your children. Cherish them and let them feel loved and wanted.

We don't know what kind of mental problems there were. It could have been mild depression or anxiety which are both classified as Mental Health. It also could have been worse. Don't jump to judgement until all the facts are out.

The fact is people told Government agency this women was a danger and they didn't do enough. Jahmekan is right, the system always favors the mother, and usually by the time the government agencies step in to do anything damage has already been done. Talk to fostercare parents, or a lot of fathers out there and you will the insanity of the government system who is suppose to help protect kids from this.

Tiggle, the fact that this woman took her two children too too the welfare office and shot them is pretty clear. What type of mental problems justifies protecting these children?

Then he has to face a kidnapping charge. He followed the rules. The agency dropped the ball. I reported someone to our local welfare office and was told that Child Protective Services only acts AFTER something happens to a child. By then it is too late.

This is a tragic thing. Clearly, we do not know all the detailas of what caused such a terrible thing to happen, You can say what you will about the mother and her unstable mental state -- or what might have "driven her " to what she did, but these two children should not have been in the middle. I agree that if she was showing long-term signs of mental problems that the father, family and/or someone else should have done something about it -long before. I realize it is not easy to do that in every situation, but I have heard of "protective action" being taken for much lesser reason. Once again the children are the victims here.

They recently moved to Texas. Who knows what state got the report. Add to that it's one more of thousands of reports that come in. you expect these agencies to drop everything and get right on this NEW report?

Jahmekan @ #3.1: "The system is set up to say that the mother is always the better care giver..."

This is no longer the case. Well, maybe in some backward, racist, closed-minded areas of Texas they still do but, for the rest of the country, courts are now recognizing that sometimes a father really is the better parent. Which makes me wonder why, if Dad knew Mom was mentally unstable, would he allow the kids to live with her.

And why was Mom denied food stamps? Dad paying too much in child support? Income too high?

In hindsight, the police probably should have moved in on the situation long before the shootings when Grimmer kept hanging up on them. I guess they optimistically believed they could still open some line of communication with her. But when the hostage taker won't talk, it's time to take more aggressive action. A couple of flash-bangs and/or a sonic grenade through a window would have successfully rendered Grimmer, as well as her hostages, pretty much incapacitated. But everyone would have survived. Hopefully they will have learned a lesson from this for the next situation.

So sad on so many levels.

It is not illegal to take your kids in this situation. The father can file for an Emergency Protective Order. With sufficient cause, these are almost always granted. A hearing must be held within 3 days on the merits of the case. But, to make the order permanent, he must have evidence that the children were in danger.

Of course, this action might have pushed the mother over the edge.

If you have never dealt with the child protective services, you will never understand. Our system is so F***ed up on SOOOO many levels. Not just child services, but many other areas. However, they always seem to think that "mother knows best". Not so people. Sometimes the best interest of the child is not the mother. I took a young girl to social services not to long ago. As I sat there watching the people, and I use that word loosely, that worked there I was sick to my stomach. These people do not give a damn about any of their cases. They are rude beyond belief, never even look at you in the eye, never smile or say a polite word. They are government workers, and no wonder "government workers" have a bad name. Motor vehicle, DMV, social services, IRS....they are all the same.

Government workers should be thankful that they have a job and benefits and are not sitting on the other side of that desk. I wish just once they could all experience the treatment they give us.

God bless these children. Nobody else lifted a finger to help them. Typical.

Thewordsmith - that might be what it is on paper, but even in more "progressive" states, it is appallingly hard for the father to get custody, even when the mother is blatantly a bad parent. One of my friends had to go through this. Even with the mother failing to get her children to school, even with them constantly coming down with lice, even with incomplete and inconsistent paperwork, the mother still got custody and didn't lose it until she was arrested for felony child abuse.

I did just that. On paper, my ex has 25% custody of the children. He can see them if he wants, he chooses not to come see them. I will not allow them into his sick home where one of them was abused and the other witnessed it and the police determined the abuse occurred but chose not to prosecute. You go in and do, don't talk about it. Take your kids before the tragedy.

And why was Mom denied food stamps? Dad paying too much in child support? Income too high?

She wasn't denied exactly, she didn't bring all the necessary paperwork or finish filling out the forms, they gave her a month to bring it all back, she didn't, she also did not return their phone calls or show up for her interview.

@maga and thewordsmith

And? What's your point? Unless she did this in outrage of the military's actions, which she didn't it doesn't change the fact that the comment adds absolutely NO substance to this particular conversation. Why should they appologize for pointing out someone trying to stir the pot in a completely unrelated article.

There should Never be a law or rule that automatically says the mother is the best care giver. This idea has been wrong from the beginning. How many times have you heard of the mother killing their children. Each custody hearing should give equal rights without any automatics. This is as much the courts fault as anything.

A wackadoodle? Well Lisa, I'm quessing you have no experience with the mentally ill. Softdude above had a good post. I suggest you read it.

Mental illness is a reality that we need to accept. I spent 8 years as a mental health worker before going to law school. The differences that having the correct medications and treatment regimes can make are incredible. From my experience working with the mentally ill I can almost assure you that this woman's mental illness could have been treated, which would have prevented this, and you would not now be calling her a "wackadoodle."

Mental illness is not being addressed in this country. If we could stop whining about our tax dollars and give back a little to our communities we could start treating people's illnesses before things like this happen. And don't tell me to donate to a mental health cause if I want to help fix the problem. This is a much larger issue than one that can be addressed through "the freedom" to put your money towards a non-profit. Mental illness is a problem that needs to be addressed through a body of democratically elected officials in order to allocate the proper amount and type of resources and funds - oh wait, that's like the government. Some things in life are simply too important to throw to the whims of the "free market."

Wow I use a term and you start assuming things. I actually do understand mental illness and have had to take medication to keep myself in check after some difficult times. I have no problem saying I take crazy pills (however, the people close to me hate it and know different). I tend to make light of it just to deal with it.

Maybe you should go back to your law books.

The Russians have the correct attitude towards mental illness; Get over it or go to jail! They don't have crazies taking care of their children. If there is any doubt "take the child away until proven wrong" at least they live healthyer and longer that way!

I'm with Lisa here. A wackadoodle for sure. And for those of you still preaching about the Government not doing enough or saying this is somehow their fault keep this in mind. This Government is made up of elected officials, elected by "us" sent to act on "our" behalf in "our" best interest. Therefore, since "we" elected these officials, and they represent "us", this is actually "our" fault. Not the Government, not just me, not just Lisa, all of "us". Now, doesn't that make you feel better? Quit blaming the Government for your (and this woman's) shortcomings, take responsibility for yourself and do something productive that helps our Government help people like this. For those clinging to religious faith here, remember this one; give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach that man to fish, he'll start a business, pay taxes, and support the Government's efforts to help wackadoodles like this before they kill their kids!!!

I agree that people with mental illnesses are often unfairly ostracized and called names, but when they even THINK of killing their children, all bets are off -- they're a psychopath who must be stopped by any means necessary, up to and including deadly force.

Remember in 2001, when that woman from Houston drowned her FIVE children in the bathtub? She got to go to the loony bin. I cry foul on that -- they should've given her the needle, psychosis or not.

Good Post.

And just yesterday an article about a Dr. and his wife living high on the hog and claiming welfare benefits, but a single mother with two children is denied. This country is f'd.

36% REAL unemployment rate

The number is actually 17.4%

Auto:

I don't discredit your claim, but is there somewhere I can go to see?

My personal concept of unemployment is anyone between the ages of earliest legal unemployment and retirement age that is capable of working but isn't.

No, the real number is still 8.6%. People who "stop looking for work" don't count for a reason. People who really need jobs to survive NEVER stop looking for work. People who don't really need a job stop looking for work, like people who's spouses earn enough to support them, people who choose to go back to school, or people who are independently wealthy. The right wingers like to put these fake numbers out there all the time, funny how they say "Duh, unemployment was 7% under Bush, but according to the numbers I just made up, it's 17% under Obama!" Why don't they make up higher "realistic" numbers for Bush as well? What about this phony number they've been spouting lately that "47% of Americans pay ZERO income tax"? Do they mention that the number includes children, unemployed and disabled? No, they don't, that would require integrity, of which they have none.

" I believe it's too late for lawmakers to even tackle these challenges. Their solutions won't prevent revolution. "

The solutions won't arrive by our lawmakers, since they are all [for the most part] part, and parcel of that 1%; they pass laws to support their greed, and agenda......and we, the voting public, are not part of their agenda!!!

Tiggle, so what, stay-at-home moms or dads would be considered unemployed? Disabled people? Lazy people? Trust fund kids? Independently wealthy? Lotto winners? Moochers? Homeless? Mentally handicapped? Sick people? Hell if we include all those people, maybe it would be like 36-40%. But one would only do or say such a thing if their intent was to decieve people into believing things are worse than they really are.

Wow Ok(not so much) mom, you can attribute mental illness and the killing of children to politics?????

Just out of curiosity are you saying the that wealthier people should not be allowed to make good money,, isnt this a caplitalist country we live in,, do you think it is right to take form those that have and give to others, that sounds like either Robin Hood or just a solcialist.. There is NOTHING wrong with making over 6 figures in income if you earn it and there is NOTHING right about taking from them to support others that will not work.. This sense of entitlement amazes me that so many in our society, mostly the jeleous ones that is, have,, no one owes anyone a living or happiness, the constitution only promised the Persuit of happiness.. Yes the system is broken and it needs to be fixed but it has to start with getting rid of this sense of entitlement that so many people in our society have..

@Kansas City Guy - Average people don't go around shooting their kids because they can't get food stamps. She had mental problems. She didn't bring the required information. You can't blame everything on the government and the rich. Things are bad right now for everyone, but you can't just kill people because of it.

I am sorry she felt there was no way out. I am especially sorry for the children that had no say in anything but lets put the blame where it belongs. My heart goes out to their father and their grandmothers.

OklahomaMom,

Brainwashing? Really? You posted WORD FOR WORD exactally what Glenn Beck, Larrs Larson, Mark Levign, Rush Limbaugh and all the other right wing talking heads have been saying on the radio for the last few months. YOU are clearly indoctrinated into believing this drivel. The vast majority of young people WORK, and they work hard. For your information, the vast majority of social assistance in this country is spent in RED states. Furthermore, the majority of obese people in this country are over 40, and again, in RED states. I laugh at this attitude of the right wing nut jobs that all these lazy people should just go get jobs, or "occupy a job" as they so ignorantly say. Well, they could if right wing policies of the Bush era hadn't given incentives to corperations to ship jobs overseas. I bet you're a "Christian" too, right? If so, I suggest you go give Luke 6 a read, especially verses 27-30. But expecting an Evangelical Pseudo-Christian to ACTUALLY follow the teachings of Christ may be a bit too much to ask. You prefer your docterine of HATE, INTOLERANCE and SELFISHNESS.

Talk about head in the sand there CV. You think that people actually stop looking for work because they don't need the money and are not desperate? There are 2 main reasons that people disappear from those roles other than actually finding employement. One is discouragement. People can only take it for so long before they give up and move back in with Mom or their girl/boy friend. They will eventually try again. The other is that one person is working and the other is not and despite whatever economic reality the family is facing a lot of people will drop out over the holidays thinking they will try again after the new year. Which is sad because the holidays are when it is most likely that you can at least pick up some part time work. For the most part these people you claim don't count will be back in force come January and your coveted 8.6 will jump to 9.5 or 10. Sorry Obama but even the 1/2 truth of your record hurts as will you when you join the unemployment line January 20 2013 which will make for a sweet birthday for me.

Unbelievable tragedy but this is how they do business in the grand state of Texas. Just think...Perry might actually be elected President of the US. If it is left up to the banks, investment firms, big oil and Perry we will be seeing much more of this.

I agree, very good post. Even if we could somehow stop the widening of the financial gap between the haves and have nots right this instant, the damage is done. The rich few and the politicians that they have purchased all have their blinders on and their head in the sand by being unable to recognize that their fellow man aka John Q Average citizen is hurting on all levels. The well will run dry and the ridiculously rich idiots can all go hide in their basements counting their money while their front door is being kicked in by a revolutionary.

Cvilleguy78 They are no longer counted when the unemployment benefits stop...This does not mean the people who don't have jobs have stopped looking for work.

The rate is skewed because they want people like you to repeat the crap they told you.

OKM-Blah blah blah everyone on government assistance is fat and lazy blah blah blah I'm so much better than they are blah blah blah I'm the world's best mom blah blah blah I work multiple jobs blah blah blah no one helps me blah blah blah...I've heard all of this before. If ranting about an obviously troubled woman makes you feel better about yourself, then I pity you. As for your claim that no one has ever helped you, I call BS.

Hairfarmer,

Correction; collection of unemployment benefits is not a factor in the uneployment statistic. So, no, one does not cease to be counted once their benefits have run out. Try doing a little research, I'll get you started; Google: Who does the government count on uneployment statistics?

Stop looking to the Federal/state government/politicians for answers and solutions. Solve your own problems, ask your family, your neighbors or your church or local non-profit organization for help. They are much more responsive and able to help you.

I am sure you know the accurate information....And the reasoning behind all of the peoples motivation...You have it all figured out don't you.

"Blame yourself if your not rich!" Cain

So sad for this family!.

I think Kansas City Guy's employment rate estimate is probably pretty accurate. The government doesn't include all the people who have run out of unemployment benefits, how could they possibly know how many people are out there looking for work but aren't getting unemployment benefits?. How do they know i'm unemployed and not getting unemployment benefits?. It really peeves me off when they come up with these statistics and don't gather all the facts!!!.

Nobody is asking where did she get the gun or the money to buy one. These stories are heatbreaking to say the least.

Hairfarmer,

Why is someone "to blame" if they're not rich? Is someone not a success if they aren't rich? You see, selfisness is the problem of the right wing. Not everybody wants to be rich, some people just want to work hard and live comfortably. And aparently pride is a problem for you as well, you couldn't just admit that you were wrong.

The lady asked for a different case worker than she had to deal with last time - that is an implication something triggered her anger and disappointment in the way she was handled or talked to the first time. All to many times certain workers are so sarcastic there is no way they should be dealing with the public to begin with. Way too many govt. employees woking for an agency think they can do what they want with no respect for the people they are serving and -so what they can't get fired - they hold a civil servant job. She needed more information - but then again the process is so time consuming, red tape, duplication of required information - it can drive a person beserk. And if she already was diagnoised with a mental problem - don't you think someone should have handled her case slightly different than the - OK next joe-blow, whats your problem?

People are tired of govt. BS, workers with no sense of respect, seeing others (illegal aliens) getting govt. benefits, yet they are refused even with a good case or need. The whole system is broken - its not just people are crazy. People cause other peoples problems. Thats what is wrong with this country - no sense of accountability for deeds done. No one is responsible so lets just blame this whole sad event on the poor looney woman. Yea right- and your sane.

Mickey,

I just corrected another poster on the same lie that people are not counted after benefits run out. It's simply not true. Unemployment rates are adjusted for seasonal help, so the number isn't down for holiday season employees and unemployment benefit rolls ARE NOT CALCULATED as a part of the statistic. It really peeves me off when ignorant people spout off without correct facts.

CV : So sorry you get peeved...I am not wrong. You are obviously right...

The calculations are not accurate. I see the unemployed all around me everyday. The rate they state is flawed. The calculations for the cost of the wars is flawed...The math the government puts out on almost everything is flawed to make things look better than they are to ensure the masses feel better about the state of America.

You did not correct me...You are incorrect.

I am not ignorant of the facts...I have an education, and I observe the world around me. I also know about statistics...97% of them are made up on the spot...Like that one.

Have fun being peeved but right. It must be a rich existence.

The 'Real' problem is the Gov and also you people that are lap dog Dems and Rep. You believe what ever your party spews and are to damn busy fighting each other to see the real problem. Your political parties

I do also feel that more than just people collecting should be counted as unemployed. What about all the 'self-employed' workers that are out of work or can't find any? Do they not matter or count? The whole system is eff'ed up, I once tried to claim SS while being in rehab for several months. After many denials I had asked why I see able body folks of color(not just black) getting approved right away. The agent said to me "If you repeat this I will deny it but if you where not white you would have been approved". This made me sick. Granted I was younger but had been paying taxes since I was about 15, then I was 25 and had worked full time for over 7 years.

The system is broken and many of you folks fight against yourself instead of the real problem. Heck just for a week try showing some compassion to someone in need, if the smile on a childs face doesn't do it for you then please just crawl back under the rock you came from.

Hairfarmer,

Again that foolish pride shines through. You made a statement that people are not counted in the unemployment statistic after unemployment benefits run out, and since that statement is not true, logic dictates that you are one of 2 things; either woefully ill-informed, or a liar. Given your attitude, I feel safe concluding that you are indeed a liar. But hey, what's new, a right winger telling a lie, big whoop. You cannot provide any evidence that suggests the government statistics are incorrect, in fact, I'd say your math is flawed, you, being a selfish and prideful right winger, want things to look worse than they are, so you lie. Now, I know you'll be upset that I've called you out on your lies, but hey, it's understandable, most liars are usually offended by being called liars. They continue to lie and lying is just a way of life for people like you. So, go ahead, continue to perpetuate your lies by lying about being a liar, you dirty liar, but everyone here know you to be a liar, so nobody will believe you.

I have not had to use benefits for years, but have had to at times in the past. Some workers were awful, others very good at working with their clients. The paperwork was always horrible (like the forms that asked you to predict your medical expenses or loss of work due to illness next month)--it's kinda designed to work for people whose income, expenses, housing, etc never change from month to month. It's very hard for anyone dealing with MI. I remember seeing a guy in the office asking for help with forms, being told they did not have time to individually walk him thru the forms, and he was freaking out and falling apart saying "you don't understand mental illness at all!" Saw the same thing at job service during a long, bleak job hunting period (yeah, it was awful, and yeah, I make pretty much median individual wages now, but I am not going to be one of those "I did it so what's wrong with you?" people)--people confused by the computer software they had to use to apply for unemployment or to look for a job and were simply refused individual help. Maybe not enough staff? But there were always 2-3 job service staff standing around doing zip. They did not even have orientation group sessions to teach people how to use the system. The disconnect between agencies and what people need is astounding sometimes.

I have not had to use benefits for years, but have had to at times in the past. Some workers were awful, others very good at working with their clients. The paperwork was always horrible (like the forms that asked you to predict your medical expenses or loss of work due to illness next month)--it's kinda designed to work for people whose income, expenses, housing, etc never change from month to month. It's very hard for anyone dealing with MI. I remember seeing a guy in the office asking for help with forms, being told they did not have time to individually walk him thru the forms, and he was freaking out and falling apart saying "you don't understand mental illness at all!" Saw the same thing at job service during a long, bleak job hunting period (yeah, it was awful, and yeah, I make pretty much median individual wages now, but I am not going to be one of those "I did it so what's wrong with you?" people)--people confused by the computer software they had to use to apply for unemployment or to look for a job and were simply refused individual help. Maybe not enough staff? But there were always 2-3 job service staff standing around doing zip. They did not even have orientation group sessions to teach people how to use the system. The disconnect between agencies and what people need is astounding sometimes.

CV...I have been called many things in my life...But a right winger? LOL ...I usually get liberal hippie scum...Perhaps even commie...A lying right winger...That is going to be my new facebook status...

You buy the lies the government sells you...I do not buy a word they say. In fact...Do you work for them?

I will vote out as many incumbents as I can this next November...I protest the bank bailouts, the wars, and the current American government...A right winger...You made my day. LOL

I think I am going to go watch some youtube so I can dumb myself down a bit...Perhaps then, after you attend your anger management classes, we can have another good laugh.

Call me a liar, a right winger...A liberal...Whatever...Just don't call me late for dinner. ;)

WOW...so much going on in these responses....

We have a woman who, for some reason, brought a gun and used it on herself and her children....mental illness-maybe......though she could have been sane and just made bad choices....we will not know until more facts come in....but I will state that just because someone does something like this does not mean they have a mental illness (unfortunately)...you have a 50/50 chance that they are suffering from a mental illness....

It is interesting that instead of focusing on the situation at hand, politics came into play...when I say politics, I mean the usual fight against the dems and reps...left and right....liberal and conservative....

Oklahoma mom....I AM SO SICK AND TIRED of my age group/generation/whatever being labeled as lazy.....having no jobs....don't want to work....looking for a hand out.....and any other ridiculous thing people come up with......let me say that, yes there are some people that are content to do the bare minimum or nothing at all....BUT GUESS WHAT? there are people like that in EVERY generation....always have been so please don't pin that strictly on us....

Myself (and others I have known in my life) have always looked to achieve in life...I put myself through school...worked all day and went to school at night...paid for it myself....I am in school now....looking to get to where I really want to be career wise....I have worked since high school....I have always taken care of myself.....I ask no one for anything and I am not even 30 yet.....sorry to burst your bubble, but MANY people I know, in my age group, are the SAME way.....

Our government has made many mistakes over the decades.....too bad for us coming up now and in the future because we are going to feel those mistakes.....fact is our government needs an overhaul and we need to get back to what this country is supposed to be about......it is supposed to be about US, the people...not politicians (on both sides) greasing their palms or lobbyists trying to get their cuts or corporations trying to be the one and only......

Just one suggestion....people on both sides need to QUIT listening to what politicians and the mouth pieces have to say and do some RESEARCH! learn for yourselves what is and isn't going on in America....make your own opinion about what is going on....think for yourselves....hell we all have brains, let's start using them....the only way to get things to where they should be is to educate ourselves and start to advocate for change.....

Oh yeah...as far as the rich and poor issue....no one is saying that the rich can't be rich....no one is saying that the rich should not be able to make a ton of money....no one is saying that money should be taken from the rich and given to the poor....but DAMMIT stop allowing the rich to get rich off of the backs of the poor.....I am sick as hell of having to work more and get paid less when the only people profiting from that are the rich (who take advantage of the crap that government has passed over the years to aide the rich)....you want to be a billionaire....fine with me, I truly don't care.....just don't become one at my expense....don't make it my back that you step on to get you there.....that is the real issue though many don't want to say it....fairness doesn't mean that rich have to stop being rich....it just means they are getting rich without the poor suffering for it......

Oklahoma Mom - You see fat, lazy kids everywhere you look? Where? In Oklahoma? Get off your high horse. Why don't you take a second to consider how much of your tax dollars (if you're even paying any) actually goes to these fat, lazy kids. And then perhaps compare that amount to the percentage that goes to military spending, bailouts for Wallstreet, etc. I think you'll be surprised.

Cvilleguy78

No, Cvilleguy your about as full of it as a christmas turkey. The actual unemployment number would be closer to 20%. The govt. no longer considers the people that have used up their unemployment time. This mess has been going on long enough now that a lot of people have used all their eligability and now don't count. o.bumma has done nothing to help anyone. The numbers are down because more and more people are no longer eligable.

@OklahomaMom I think I might be in love with you!!!

@StateAtty, I agree that the bailouts was a complete waste of tax dollars, if a company runs itself into the ground too dang bad. As for military spending I disagree, who is it that guarantees and protects your right to post comments on this page? The Government? Politicians can spout off at the mouth all they want, without someone willing to stand up and serve it means absolutely nothing!!! We did not get the rights and freedoms we have in this country because some self serving politician said we should. We got them through the blood sweat and tears of our military! Cut the military budget, reduce the forces, heck, go ahead and disband them altogether, I'm sure when some Muslim extremists or other radical country (anyone remember Japan or Germany) I'm sure they'll be understanding when we tell them we have the right to practice our own religion, say what we want or even carry a gun. Sure, they'll understand, make love not war man! Good luck with that!

@ Adam. Hate to break it to ya buddy, but YOU chose to read it. The article must of had some sort of attraction for you to want to read it.

Don't get me wrong, this is what us humans do. We find things to be upset about, then when we find them (ie. this article), we proceed to become upset.

Yet it was ourselves all along who wanted this to begin with.

Indeed.

Why didn't the mother sell the gun or pawn it if they needed food.

Agreed!

You have to be of a certain age and pass an exam to drive a vehicle. Apparently, raising children is easier than raise a child.

Bingo.....and some of the people behind the desks like to play god just because they have the power and can.....it must be difficult enough to have to be applying for help without the crap they put you through. I have heard people say they were treated like dogs at the agencies.

Read the post. She didn't turn in the required information.

They were probably treated bad because they drove up in a 40K vehicle. People know how to play the system. Their job is to help people who need help (when they provide proper paperwork). Otherwise our country would go broke. Oh wait it already is.

It has, thank goodness, been 15+ years now since I applied for unemployment benefits. Some of the people there were more-or-less helpful, others seemed to do nothing but look down on the people they were supposed to be helping and were as obstructive as possible.

I busted my butt to do everything required and find another job to get off that dog-track! And still got the snotty attitudes and condescencion. The day I was summoned to the counselor so she could 'explain' that I needed to be doing more to find a job, I plunked my file of all the copie of the letters I'd sent out and list of companies I'd applied to. It was easily 2" thick. She looked at that and put her forms away. Then told me to keep on doing what I was already doing.

She should have moved to Washington. apparently all you have to do is sign your fake name, then they give you an Escalade, cell phone, food stamps, costco card and free medical!!

No, she didn't have a 40k car. In fact according to the local newspaper, she didn't have a car at all--it broke down and she most likely couldn't afford to fix it. She WALKED the five or so miles to the social service office, probaly either because she didn't have busfare or just didn't live on a bus route. Public transportation in Texas sucks eggs.

Also, neighbors shared food with her. The family was living in poverty and she was at her wits end. If she had a mental illness this exerbated it. Learn facts before posting such nonsense.

And as for her relatives, why weren't they helping her out? I bet the father protested all the way to his bank account his child support payments--if he even paid. And yes, the forms are long and the workers are not bright and don't want to help you at all.

Texas sucks but I'm stuck here because the industry my son is going into has all their headquarters here--believe it or not.

Bus fare? In Laredo? Genuine proof that you have no idea what you are talking about!!!! There is no public transportion is towns that you can walk across in 15 minutes.

Don't like the state move out. Sounds like your son is grown so why are you "stuck" here?????

Your just talking our your butt. Government workers are the same in all states lady. Hows that fro a gneral. ombiguous statement. A crazy lady killed herself and her children, don't blame the entire state and millions of people for that.

BTW, some person just killed two people in Virginia. Must be because of no mass transit, long forms and dumb people!!!!! Give me fricken break!!!!!!!

I think it'd be an interesting story if reporters tried to apply for benefits, undercover of course, just to see what it's like.

They probably already have, multiple times, in multiple states. The problem is, they probably got the assistance - and that doesn't make a for a good story. This one, however, sells subscriptions.

She was denied the food stamps because she didn't provide all the information required on the application... not because she didn't qualify. Technically this is her fault, not the governments.

I do think it is outrageous that they gave the people $1200 a month though. Unfortunately, there are people who take advantage of government programs meant to help the truly needy... this is hard to avoid.

The woman was denied because she failed repeatedly to show up for the appointments she was scheduled for. She was supposed to do a phone interview and when they called her multiple times at the number she provided, she never answered. She failed to provide the information she was asked for - something they ask everyone to supply when they're applying.

You don't follow the rules, you don't get the free hand-out. She was responsible for meeting the institution halfway and didn't do what she was supposed to. Then she blames the system for not giving her a free ride. So because she didn't get her way without having to work for it, she goes and kills her kids. Talk about a major tantrum.

The children were shot and this woman died because she failed to be a responsible adult - not because the "system failed".

Exactly......everyone thinks they are owed something but they would rather pick up a sign and go complain about how hard it is ( OCCUPY WHATEVER ). They should go and OCCUPY A JOB!!!!!!

Actualy 80% of occupy wall street people have a job. So I guess your a Republican drone who doesn't think for yourself?

And I guess you have polled all of these people!!! Dont run your mouth related to things you dont the information to back it up!! Many of the occupy are a bunch of free loaders that want something for nothing and are jeleous of those that have something.. I suppose all the employers of those 80% with jobs are letting them off to demonstrate huh!!! If you dont make it you dont get it in a capitalist society-- get over it or get out!!!!

J Elliott...Did you poll them?

I work...I also go to the protests...I have met lots of people with jobs who are tired of the status quo and decided to protest the bailouts, and the corporate influences on our government.

I also work - in a job that most likely pays way more than Letusreason, patd562, and J Elliot make combined because I was smart enough to make it into and through one of the best law schools in the nation - and I also go to the protests.

I go because I am smart enough to understand the negative consequences of our three decade decline in tax rates on top earners (such as myself).

I work almost 70 hours a week. Not to brag, but for purposes of this discussion, I make a lot of money. I support most of what OWS stands for. This idea of "entitlement" is a complete fallacy. The percentage of our tax dollars going to poor people who "take advantage of the system" is so minute in comparison to everything else our tax dollars go to. Of course, it sure makes conservatives making $30K to $100K feel rich when they can say "hey my tax dollars are going to the poor!"

"Entitlement" does not prevent poor people form finding jobs. Lack of jobs prevents poor people from finding jobs. Lack of jobs comes from a lack of demand for the products and/or services those jobs would produce. Lack of demand for products and/or services comes from the fact that poor people, and the middle class, have less disposable income to spend on said products and/or services. Not until we get more money in the pockets of the poor and middle classes can we expect "the rich" to start "creating" jobs (if you were rich, would you create a job to meet a demand that isn't there?).

J Elliott-2826580

lmao You self righteous prick. You don't know squat and you're attitude is part of the reason there is something big coming and it's not your belly lopping over your belt while chugging down that beer. You seem to like to make generalizations, how did you like that one?

Used to live in Texas and the poverty there is staggering......along side the unholy wealth of a few.

I always love these posts from people like you Kathy. You are so full of crap.......!!!!!!!!! You too Tom!!!

The system simply can't support all of the illegals. Laredo is just across from Mexico by the way.

I've been to........................................... You fill in the blank and it is true! Just a stupid, generalized statement.

For me I can say that about NY, California, Missouri, Kansas, North Carolina, Florida and Michigan.

Tom- This can be argued in every state... not just Texas. When it comes down to it, the mother is responsible for her actions. I doubt this would have turned out differently if she lived anywhere else. There are people in hard times everywhere. No doubt there was more to the woman's madness in this situation... and her children paid the price. Heartbreaking.

Moron

Pretty sick point you make Ray.

This is f%&Ked up.

RIP to the little girl, and may her brother heal up.

I think (hope) Ray was being sarcastic.

Ray: I hope you're being sarcastic! If you are? Good one! If not: ew.

Yeah, and I'm sure Tea Partiers everywhere are rejoicing that there are two less mouths to feed in the state of Texas. /sarcasm>

Ray

Your a heartless piece of Sh1t to turn this political

Stinky pig

Your name says it all.

yeah right .. your solutions stink too!

You picked the right name ....stinky pig.....you obviously don't think much of yourself.

You are assuming they had a big screen tv..... Been to their house? If you had then you are responsible for not warning authorities about her mental state... Haven't? then shut up... You have no idea how they lived....

Stinky Pig gets my vote for most moronic comment of the day!! (but the day's not over yet...)

We don't know if she had a big TV to sell for food money, but we DO know she had a gun she could have sold!

Apparently this 12 year old had a smartphone, to be able to change her facebook profile while not at home, plus the fact that she typed "2day", which they only do on a phone keypad for speed. Smartphones are EXPENSIVE. The mom bought a gun, and guns are EXPENSIVE. Even if she HAD supplied all the information on the application (which she didn't), they should have denied her foodstamps because she obviously owned a lot of expensive posessions.

Moderate Matthew - We have no idea where the phone is from. The child's father may have purchased it for her when they moved so he could stay in touch with her. It's common practice. The dad gets a friends & family plan and gives a phone to the kid(s) so they can be in touch. My ex did it for our daughter. It's very, very common.

Also, we don't know that the mother bought the gun. She might have, she might have 'borrowed' it, heck she might have stolen it. We don't know. Your logic is faulty.

Moderate Matthew

Apparently this 12 year old had a smartphone, to be able to change her facebook profile while not at home, plus the fact that she typed "2day", which they only do on a phone keypad for speed. Smartphones are EXPENSIVE.

2day. Hmph. I did it on my home computer. You are assuming that she had a smart phone. Well, I learned sometime ago that to assume makes an ass out of you and an ass out of me. ass-u-me.

Smart phones are cheap, if you get one with a two year contract. And in most parts of the county, the two year contract is cheaper than paying two years for a land line. Most likely, the girl was using the computer in the office, just as I can use a computer at the library to log onto Facebook or msnbc.

This was my thought too! No money for food, but we can still have fancy phones or ipods.

I was thinking the same thing! My kids would love a phone that would allow them to post on Facebook, but I can't afford it and I have two jobs! Heck the data package alone is $30/month, add in the price of the monthly service and the phone itself and it is enough to feed the family for a week

nate-1333487

As messed up as it sounds, I do agree with you. Priorities were screwed up since the beginning and these children paid the price for it.

And you think the mother's mind would have though rationally about this because...??

Maybe her phone was paid for by dad, or grandma.... too much speculation when the focus should be on the children........... NOT their possessions

She probably had a free welfare phone!

It amazes me that people are so focused on the phone. Cell phones are given away free these days, or it could have been a gift, or a hand-me-down, or she bought it when they had more money. It could have been the Mom's and she was just using it. Could have had a shared plan with Dad or one of the Grandparents. Sometimes it's cheaper than having a landline, and more convenient. Obviously food would be more important if it came down to it, but there are lots of legitimate explanations she might have one, and you lot act like someone has to be completely destitute to qualify for any kind of aid. She probably had a car too, and maybe even electricity. I guess even if someone else was helping pay for them, they should be paying for food only and nothing else, and that shouldn't get any help because they aren't all starving to death.

Nate sayin hi to another Nate. btw this crazy broad reminds me of my ex. Bonkers as hell

Solvseus: Cell phones CAN be free, but there are hardly any free smartphones, like the one she was using. And they cost insane amounts per month, even the free ones. And even IF, like you say, she was on her dad's or grandparents' plan, WHY THE HECK ARE THEY PAYING EXPENSIVE CELL PHONE SERVICES AND NOT FOOD FOR HER? It's pretty obvious why the woman refused to supply all the information needed to get the food stamps. She obviously left out her income, which would have been far too high to receive them.

No one said they weren't. You don't have to be destitute and starving to death to qualify for food stamps, nor should you be. Again, a phone is a commodity these days, like a car. Should she not be allowed to have that either? Besides, how do you know what kind of phone she had, or if it was even her's?

There in NOTHING in the article that says that the girl was using a smart phone!!!

NOTHING!! The girl probably used an office computer. I guess that, using the logic shown here, that Texas food stamp offices should not have computers, as they're paid for with tax money. And even if she did have one, I agree with other posters, that dad or grandma might have gotten one.

And for the jerks who think that "2day" can only be typed on a smart phone, look at your own keyboard. See the "2" key? No wonder the country's going to hell in a handbasket.

Why are so many people on here getting fixated on whether this girl used a smart phone or the office computer? Who cares? The fact remains this woman who gave birth to two children (she obviously doesn't deserve the title of mother) killed herself, the little girl and very possibly may have taken the life of the boy we won't know for some time. Whether she was destitute or this couple from Seattle drawing welfare living in a million dollar house, the story here is not about how the girl posted the messages, the story is she was killed by the woman who was supposed to be her mother!!!

Read the article. She was posting while surrounded by police. What good would calling again do? And the grandmother was giving emotional support through the only means she had. Do you think the cops would have let her stroll in and have a conversation with them?

she was already in the building surrounded by cops and the cops were talking to the mother on and off.

no need to call the cops as they were already there and couldn't do anything. read the article dude.

Did you not read that the police (SWAT) were there? The mother had barracaded them in an office, the police were outside and on the phone trying to talk the mother down.

If you would have read the article... the cops were already at the building. The girl was locked in the room by her mother and the cops were on the phone. Not much her grandmother could do... but try and comfort her grandaughter by the only method she had at the moment.

Arguments could be made as to why the daughter had a cell phone with internet capabilities and her mother was mad about not getting food stamps... but that is an entirely different point.

People living in "poverty" in America somehow manage to still have $90 a month cell phone plans. I live well above the poverty level and I just now got internet at my house... I'm not saying that there isn't a real poverty level in America... I'm just saying the real numbers aren't quite as high as they claim they are.

Someone didn't read the article. Besides the fact that it was a standoff, and as mentioned the cops were already there, she was trapped with the Mother. It's not like she could easily be chatting on the phone with her right there. She probably posted when she could, maybe Mom was distracted a few times and not paying attention. Plus, as one of her posts noted, there was a lot of time they were just sitting there, so she was bored thinking maybe it was ok and would all end soon. Then she panicked when it got worse, and already had her FB up, posting what was happening so everyone could read. Easier than trying to talk to everyone at once.

And as for the phone, it's not like they're than expensive anymore. The phone itself could have been free or a hand-me-down or they had it before becoming poorer, and maybe with a shared plan with Dad or a Grandparent. Maybe it was the Mom's, and same thing. Cell phones are commodities these days, and can be cheaper than landlines. Everyone is so focused on the phone, you act like anyone collecting benefits (even with obvious mental illnesses) can't have anything. Do you think she can't have a car, or be able to pay for gas, or electricity, or rent? Even if someone else does pay for it? Obviously food is more important, but it's not like someone applying for benefits has always been poor and shouldn't be able to have anything, even a "luxury item" like a phone.

This is tragic; but I am always amazed at how these poor, destitute people have computers and smartphones. Last time I checked they are not free of charge. Todays "poor" seem fairly well supplied with 50" flat panel TV"s , cable services, Ipads and pods, cell phones, XBoxes, and computers--all of which are non-essential. Just an observation.

I could accept the argument that it might be on a plan with her dad or grandmother...

Maybe in this case it is, but I've personally experienced many cases in which families consider new technology a must have and will purchase these items before they will buy food. I have a friend that owns just about every freaking stamp/craft/scrapbooking gadget you can buy and she had to take money out of her 401K to pay for bills she was behind on. It's actually quite surprising at how common this is. I'm just saying that sometimes people's priorities are slightly off. I will be empathetic to someone who is truly facing hardship that they couldn't control... but it is hard for me to feel sorry for someone who just makes horrible decisions with their money. There is a difference between unavoidable hardship and self-afflicted hardship.

Someone didn't read the article. Besides the fact that it was a standoff, and as mentioned the cops were already there, she was trapped with the Mother. It's not like she could easily be chatting on the phone with her right there. She probably posted when she could, maybe Mom was distracted a few times and not paying attention. Plus, as one of her posts noted, there was a lot of time they were just sitting there, so she was bored thinking maybe it was ok and would all end soon. Then she panicked when it got worse, and already had her FB up, posting what was happening so everyone could read. Easier than trying to talk to everyone at once.

And as for the phone, it's not like they're than expensive anymore. The phone itself could have been free or a hand-me-down or they had it before becoming poorer, and maybe with a shared plan with Dad or a Grandparent. Maybe it was the Mom's, and same thing. Cell phones are commodities these days, and can be cheaper than landlines. Everyone is so focused on the phone, you act like anyone collecting benefits (even with obvious mental illnesses) can't have anything. Do you think she can't have a car, or be able to pay for gas, or electricity, or rent? Even if someone else does pay for it? Obviously food is more important, but it's not like someone applying for benefits has always been poor and shouldn't be able to have anything, even a "luxury item" like a phone.

Edit: I made an entirely different post, but it seems to want to repeat my earlier one and won't let me change it back (not that I remember what all I posted the second time), so apologies for the double post. They really need to upgrade their message boards. Basically, I was just saying that we don't know the situation, and should have some empathy regardless. Sure, some take advantage of the system and obviously we'd hope they choose food over something else, but we don't always know the situation, and thinking the poor should have NOTHING to qualify for help seems myopic to me.

Perhaps, they were suffering from a creeping poverty. The kind that slowly, like quicksand, absorbs everything. The cell phone may have been the last treasure she had. What a girl! She would have made a great journalist.

Even George Bailey was about to commit suicide. The movie was on TV a few days ago. This is the Holiday Season, remember?

@ Amy- No...not all the posts...read the article more carefully.

Jesus, Christ, people...read the article more carefully. Not all the posts were made while the cops were there.

I can tell you that social services has issues. They are not there to protect the children anymore and it would be nice if our government would wake up to that fact. I have seen them fail on so many levels being a foster child myself after my mother died. We had to turn over my husbands daughter to her mother at social services when we refused to drop her off after a visit because the mother was high on meth and the grandmother was drunk. The mother showed up at social services wearing a long sleeved shirt in 100 degree weather flying higher than a kite. But we had to give her to her. I've had a daughter in law who threw the baby across the room...you know what they did to her...they gave her free daycare for all the kids so she could take a break and not get stressed. This woman is mentally ill and social services has been called repeatedly and they don't do a thing. So if this is on anyone....its on Social Services for the failure to help those children when given the chance.

Solvseus - Touché... we don't know the entire situation. The only thing that I know for sure is that she attempted to take both of her children with her and succeeded in one case... I have a hard time having empathy for anyone who is so selfish.

I was raised to believe that I am accountable for the actions that I can control. I have a hard time not expecting this same accountability from others, but do understand that not everyone was raised with the same ethics.

You are right in this situation. I don't know everything about it so I shouldn't pass judgments.

...

Ron Hme - the computer I'm using right this minute, I paid $35 for - monitor, keyboard, everything. Got it second hand from the local University's property surplus. It's a little slow, but it does the job. I don't receive assistance of any kind whatsoever, but I am frugal as heck and have helped others in my area find things to help them. I went to school for computer repair, and am able to help with repairs, finding freeware, etc.

Kids need computers to do their homework on here, and there aren't enough computers at the library to cover every poor kid in the city, plus their parents trying to apply for jobs (all done on-line now). How would you expect someone to try to move past their circumstances if they don't have the tools to do so? That mentality just baffles my mind.

She wasn't refused the food stamps because of her income. She was refused them because she didn't do her part to fill out the paperwork correctly, which they were taking her aside to do when she decided to flip out and take her innocent children along with her. Hopefully the boy will pull through. My heart breaks for them.

The government would have approved her application. Should they just take away the application and hand them out to whomever holds out their hand? Everyone wants to blame the government but where is the accountability for the people who don't do their part? Her part was as simple as filling out the paperwork correctly.

With the gun control laws we have, I'm shocked she was able to fill out the paperwork to purchase a firearm, but, couldn't fill out the paperwork to get food stamps.

Matt in MN - that suggests she didn't fill out the paperwork to purchase a gun.

It was a freakin' 18 page application.

What on earth would need 18 pages? Where's Gov. Perry to allow this abuse?

The former governor of my state was raised in an orphanage and didn't eat a square meal until he was in the military. The first thing he did was have his family and staff cut their food budgets to what the allotment would have been for them if they'd been on it, and no porking out at parties or free eats, either. They did this for a month, including walking through the paper process (without submitting it, of course) so that they would know what people were going through. The current governor is a medical doctor, who has seen over and over the effects of malnutrition on the human body.

A governor who doesn't care diddly-squat for the poor in his own state has no business taking on the rest of the nation, and yes, I'm accusing you, Gov. Perry, of ignoring the poverty in Texas.

@ElkMeadow, so you're NOT voting for Perry this coming election??? Understand all the political drama going on in the country but how is it relevant to this story? The woman did NOT do her part in the bureaucratic process. How is that anyone's fault but hers? She snapped and took her daughter and her own life and may have done the same for her son. The blame is pure and simple, this nut job of a woman, no one else! Why are we having this discussion?

I was wondering where the father was.

You are blaming the system - we don't know if they ACTUALLY contacted somebody about the issue. And we don't know if they contacted the right people.

When you are talking about your kids/grandkids, shouldn't you be doing more to protect those kids than making a couple of phone calls?

And if the family really was short on food - why aren't dad and grandma buying them some groceries?

The system does fail plenty of times, and sometimes they over-react. It's easy to blame the system based on what one person claims after the fact.

'Contacting the right people' ?? Calling Social services, CPS or any government agency should be an ample start. If there are children involved; it should NOT be a matter of contacting the right people. Any one should want to help and give them the right contact info. I don't think that's an issue.

Maybe Dad's unemployed, or Gramma can't afford to give them groceries. Maybe they were shut off from the kids, not allowed to see or contact them, maybe the mother was one of those psycho females ('no you cannot see your kids, I don't need help, your family can't see them either'). We don't have enough details for those questions

I agree completely. My mom worked in social services for years and was continually frustrated at the homes that she was required to leave children in. The rules that the government employees have to follow are built around avoiding legal troubles instead of protecting the children. They are more worried about a parent coming back and suing the state than giving kids a fair chance in life.

Basically, if the kids were fed and reasonably clean and didn't show any physical evidence of abuse, my mom was required to leave them in the home. This is the case in my state... I'm not sure about others.

It is unacceptable that Texas has allowed the system to be understaffed and underfunded that could have prevented these deaths.

It's just like the wildfires this year, a state full of tax dodgers screaming for help from the Fed and other states because they deprecated their government so badly they didn't have any fire fighting capacity and now rich people's houses are burning down. Bunch of morons.