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Subscribe to RSSMcALLEN, Texas -- Authorities say a 10-year-old boy shot by his mother during a standoff at a Texas welfare office has died.
Laredo police spokesman Joe Baeza says Timothy Grimmer died Thursday at a San Antonio hospital. His 12-year-old sister died of her wounds on Wednesday.
Police say their mother, Rachelle Grimmer, shot the children and then killed herself Monday following a standoff with police at a welfare office where they had been denied food stamps.
Also on this case:
The Texas Department of Health and Human Services says the agency rejected Rachelle Grimmer's application because she didn't submit enough information.
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I believe that the welfare workers should be held accountable as she tried to get food stamps 4 times and was turned a way.
the long drawn out process of paper work pushed this mother over the edge.
having two children she was unable to feed she should have been helped asap!
there is no excuse for this.
Shame on those that pushed her over the edge.
Ally, I think your sympathies are miss placed. Shame on her for killing her children. Yes, sounds strange doesn't it? That is because it's not normal to kill your off-springs. This is so tragic, but there is no way this should be thrown on the welfare workers. I know it's in vogue to hate government workers, but no matter if they were the worst workers ever known to man, it doesn't justify killing your children. My heart is breaking as I type this. I wish I could give their Dad a hug, because he has to be going through his personal hell right now.
Your comment is truly ignorant. As someone who has a family member that works as a case worker for the state, I can tell you that this is not the case of having to do too much paperwork.
People who come in to get food stamps (half of them have no jobs or only work part time) can't be bothered to fill out the paperwork. You mean, in order to get something for free, I have to take time out of my day and fill in work history and other information?!?! How dare you.
Really, how lazy are people? If you can't afford to feed two children, and can't handle filling out STANDARD paperwork (pretty sure I have to fill out paper work to open a bank account, get a job, anything really) you shouldn't have those kids.
Food stamps are there as an aid. Too many people treat it as their right to be lazy. It's not meant to be just handed to you. You have to prove you need them. I see nothing wrong in this. The other article states that the office tried to contact her several times. There is only so much they can do.
She was pushed over the edge by non-sensible people like you. They think that they are entitled for free everything. First they don't want to work.. now they don't even want to have to fill out an application.
A mother murders her two young children and you blame a $30k a year social worker?
Blame Obama ... it was a federal form. Blame the Governor.. it was a State Office. Blame the grocery store chain because they charge for food. Blame corporate America because they didn't give her a $150K job which she probably wouldn't have showed up for. While you are at it why not blame the guy that painted the center lines on the streets to the Welfare Office. OR.. grow up and take some personal responsibility for your own pathetic whiny life.
Welfare was never meant to be a career field Peaches.
Try reading the article, and aim your blame correctly.
ALLY - So, this beast (the "mother") refuses to attend her scheduled meetings with her caseworker, and it's the caseworker's fault? Explain to me what the caseworker should have done to force this woman to get into her car and drive to the building on time. I'm chronically ill and have lots of doctor's appointments, and I somehow manage to attend all of them at their scheduled times. If I can't because I'm too sick to drive safely, I call and reschedule. It's not difficult.
There's only one person at fault for this tragedy - the mother. Nobody else. Period.
none of you know her situation. why do you insist she was lazy? her mother in law stated she had mental issues. maybe she couldn't hold a job due to that. i read that the application she was given is over 18 pages long. really? is that necessary? or a bunch of bureaucratic bull@!$%# to humiliate someone who is in need?
i am not defending what she did to her children. unforgivable. but Human Services workers are there to HELP people. not saying they are to blame, but perhaps they could have done more for her.
and no one forces someone into social work. it's their decision. they make the decision based on the fact that they want to SERVE people, help those who need it. no one is holding a gun to their head to stay in the $30k a year job.
No one is to blame for the death of those children except the mother. No excuses. I've had 6 children, and raised a grandson after daughter's death, but though married, still worked at times when necessary to make ends meet. There's always housecleaning and waitressing, even w/a college education. Whatever works. The kids were old enough to be in school. If she couldn't deal, drop them off at the police station, fire station, or hospital. Then go do your thing. Selfish witch to off her kids.
So much better to not have any regulations and just give it away to everyone who walks through the door? then complain about taxes and fraud. Was she enrolled in the program in Ohio from where she moved a few months earlier? Her mental issues were the problem. She had no problem finding a gun. So why not find the needed documents.
You are correct Raven, no one knows the whole story as of yet, but this mother lived in Ohio and was on welfare and all, there, so being on welfare there and then uprooting her family to a border town and expecting them to do the same as Ohio did, is not realistic. If she had a job waiting for her elsewhere and on assistance, I understand moving, but she didn't have a job waiting for her. There are many people who go to other states to get more assistance and when it seems to run out in their states or too many questions are asked, they move to another state. Too many people know that there are people who make it their only income, living off food stamps and cash assistance, so therefore the comments. You don't know the situation either, and if she was mentally unstable then her family should have helped her and the father should have asked for custody of the children. If I needed temporary help I wouldn't mind filling out as many papers as they need me to fill out, after all it is money from tax payers that I would use. She was new in the state, how much more do you think they could have done for her? There is no justification for any parent to kill his/her children, none whatsoever! There are just too many parents killing their children lately, or they mysteriously disappear. Something is going on and who knows what it is, but whatever, there should never be a reason to kill ones children.
Some of the judgemental, irrational, insensitive people on here reflect what is so wrong with America today, "she should have gotten a job, should have ask family for help, ect., shame on you . You do not know her state of mind or whether she had family that would, or could help. You do not know what her comprehension or reading skills were, or whether she was capable of filling out the paper work. All she knew was she had two hungry children and noone would help her......Put yourself in her shoes.
This is a tragedy all the way around, and I am sure this apparently mentally challenged woman felt backed into the corner. This is just another sad example of the stress people are under during these troubled times, but a little compassion could go along way, if there is any such persons left in our society.
An 18 page application to get food. Would msnbc please post what is on those 18 pages?
no, not true, she did it all by herself. There are options always. Suicide, ok- but not take the kids with you.
SHE did this all by herself. We have all wrestled the system in one way or another, but killing our kids was NOT an option!!!! It's not dad's fault, it's not the system's fault, it's not her family's fault- Its HERS alone!
ElkMeadow--here is a link that may help you get some info. To get a look at the online application, you'll have to register as a user, but that'll only take a few seconds. There's also a benefits estimator to help you determine if you might qualify, and for how much. The monthly amount for a family of three (mother + 2 children) is $526. There are emergency benefits available for people who are in dire need; you'll see the details on the page if you follow the link above. Just scroll down a little. They give emergency benefits on a same or next day basis, so you don't go hungry waiting for your interview.
From personal experience, let me say that to call it "18 pages" is misleading. Most of those pages consist of simple explanations of what's available, and what your options are. Just the question asking you to list the people in your household takes about a quarter of a page; it's not hard to answer. The signature page is just that--a whole page that only requires your signature at the bottom. It's the basic boilerplate stuff about how you're not giving false information, what happens to people who do--the usual stuff. If you don't have all your documentation when you hand in the application, they call you and let you know, and you just bring it with you to your interview later. If you don't have a phone, or have a phone but are disabled and can't get there, or don't speak English and need an interpreter--they'll work with you. It's not that bad, really. I know, I've been there/done that. This person was not driven crazy by a harsh unreasonable system; she was already unstable when she got there. I personally wonder why no one addressed her mental instability in Ohio, before she took off with the two children. All this might have been prevented long before she got to that welfare office in Texas.
ElkMeadow--well the link keeps dropping out of my comment; just do a quick search on "Texas SNAP application" and follow the one that comes up starting with hhsc.tx...etc. Sorry, I tried to post it but it won't stay.
Two children losing their lives is a tragedy, regardless of the circumstances. I find it interesting that the 12 year old was updating her Facebook status during the ordeal. I can't help but wonder if she used a smart phone to do that. If so, what was the mother doing going for food-stamps? It takes more than being turned down for food-stamps to send someone "over the edge". If she did in fact have a history of mental illness, chances are, this has been building for quite sometime. May those children rest in peace!
All you people are judging this woman with yourselves. If you have an intact family where everybody helps out. Great. If your reasonably sane and have the skill to navigate through this bureaucratic obstacle course, fine. All you people that condemn her out of hand, put yourselves in her place, your emotionally overwhelmed, your kids have not had a good meal in two weeks, your tired down into your bones, but most of all you don't understand why this food stamp agency won't help you, and you have reach the end of your rope, and remember this is Texas, so you go for your gun!! Of course no person in their right mind shoots their kids. But this poor woman was not in her right mind and she needed help, in the worst way, and nobody was there for her, nobody. I sincerely hope none of you that condemn this poor soul ever get to the place where she was, it's horribly dark and with terrible loss, very few people survive it. Please pray for her and her children.
As people loose everything and have nothing left to loose, they loose it.
As the economy continues to degrade, we will see more and more of this.
Wait until the structurally unemployed start to cry "Off with their Heads" like other desperate people once cried in France.
The sad thing is our economic tragedy was voted on by our current generation of senior citizens over the past 40+ years. They inherited a rich country often called the "Land of the Free" and they voted to turn it into an impoverished police state now referred to as the worlds "Prison Nation".
How many of you OLD PEOPLE reading this ever voted for parties other than Democrat or Republican? How many of you spent your entire lives never once voting for Liberty or freedom?
You could have saved your children form all this suffering by voting LIBERTARIAN. Instead you voted for tyranny. The post boomer generations are going to have to do a lot of dying to pay for your uncaring negligence and depraved indifference. Shame on you.
I hope your Social Security, Medicare and Pension checks; all benefits which will not be enjoyed by your children, were worth it.
Sadly if she had been an illegal mexican she would have been given the food stamps on her 1st try,and those poor children would be alive today. I once had to apply for foodstamps the paper work alone was a very daunting task. After I filled it out I got called into my local welfare office 5 times for them to ask me questions over and over again finally on the 6th visit the welfare officer proudly tells me I had been approved for $10.00 a week food stamps. She smiled and handed me the card that you use at the grocery stores. I took the card and proceded to sit it on her desk and said thanks but no thanks you can keep your $10 dollars. As a working taxpayer since the age of 16 I was insulted. This was at a Texas welfare office were a majority of people that were given help were illegals from Mexico. I told her I would rather starve to death than accept $10. Luckily I manage to get another job soon after. It is disgusting the way we are treated like 2nd class citizens and illegals who have never paid a single cent of tax to the US goverment gets help first. What this woman did was a terrible thing ,but I can understand what drove her to it.
So does this mean that it is easier to get a gun and amo in Texas than it is to get food stamps??????
Opps!
It's too bad she didn't look to multiple avenues for help. While waiting for the food stamp miasma to clear, she could have approached local food banks, churches, the Salvation Army, and probably lots of other places. There are also lots of online organizations (modestneeds.org is one) that will put individuals with immediate needs in touch with private citizens who will help.
Too late for Ms. Grimmer and her children, but if anyone out there is in a similar situation or knows someone who is, please let them know there are other organizations that can fill in the gap while waiting for food stamp approval, or if they need help with rent, utilities or medical expenses. The true shame here is not that the welfare workers "failed" this family. The true shame is that so many Americans have been put into situations where they cannot make ends meet, even if they are working. That should not happen in the greatest nation in the world.
The twelve year old had a smartphone (she was posting on facebook throughout the event.) If they had no money for food, where did they get the money for the phone? I have two jobs, and I can't afford one!
Prayers for everyone involved.
Let's be rational here.
1. She was recently applying for food stamps. This implies she was probably employed recently and dealing with the stress of going from employed to destitute.
2. Her kid probably had a smartphone from when she was employed, and as you know, they come with 2-year contracts that charge a penalty so you basically have to keep them. Plus, the last thing parents want to do in tough times is take things away from their children.
3. I don't blame the caseworker who is doing his/her job. But we need to remember that welfare offices deal with the people who are often less educated, less good at taking direction, etc. If they were great at reading applications, filling them out completely, and showing up on time, they'd be more likely to be employed. Some of the unemployed are terrifically skilled and able to navigate the system. But many aren't, and compassion dictates that we need to adapt our systems to their skills (or lack thereof).
4. It is a shame that it is too easy for people to get guns. Had she been holding a knife or a baseball bat, the SWAT team would have been able to subdue her with little or no loss of life.
It's just sad that it comes to this.
The welfare office should be held accountable? Really?
I have a disabled child who needs both Social Security Disability and Medicaid benefits. The paperwork is very time consuming, requires several different forms and needs to be filled out completely and correctly to receive the benefits. Along with that we also have several phone calls and meetings throughout the year to verify information. Once we get those benefits we use them to go to medical appointments, many, many medical appointments over the course of the year. They also require extensive paperwork, time and energy. (And a significant amount of waiting.)
I write all of that to emphasize how incredibly time consuming and frustrating the process is. And yet my child is alive and well.
How DARE you excuse what this woman did and try to take the blame away from her! I know many, many parents who have struggled financially and never once took that fear and frustration out on their children. This woman was a sick person and the blame for what happened belongs ONLY to her.
Somehow they got money for the daughter's phone and mom's gun... The only person to blame is mom, the only people to feel sorry for are the kids...
ElkMeadow - you are a prime example of what is wrong with this country. You are obviously sitting at a computer or using a phone to post your statement, but you are too lazy to do your own on-line search to find out what the application entails. You expect someone else (MSNBC) to do it for you just like this "mother" expected the taxpayer to feed her children while she did not work so that she could home school them. The children probably would have gotten some kind of free lunch program if they had been going to school. Finally, whatever is on the application has nothing to do with the story, so why is MSNBC under any obligation to publish it for lazy bums like yourself?
She wasn't "pushed over the edge" by anyone other than herself. It has been stated over and over that this woman was mentally unstable.
If everyone who was denied food stamps shot themselves and their kids, the bodies would be piling up daily.
Whacked out idiots seem to be using this incident to have a "honor system" for getting food stamps. You ask for them, you get them. That's BS.
Barlow, I don't understand where you are coming from. In fact I'll go as far to say if there is a hell I hope this woman is in it. Under no circumstances NONE NOT NOW NOT EVER....EVER I cannot say that enough, I don't care if the world is ending in 30 seconds, I don't care if I think they are the anti christ. It is NEVER EVER EVER even remotely ok to rationalize how it's understandable to do what she did.
Barlow,
I have been in her situation. I didn’t murder my children. Please stop trying to defend this murderer. This is not 1850. So the mentality “this is Texas, you go for your gun” stuff isn’t flying. Andrea Yates was a demented woman from Texas. She didn’t “go for her gun”. She used a bathtub and her hands as her weapon to murder her children.
May those babies rest in peace. I still held hope he would make it.
I had hoped he would make it, too. But I take a little comfort knowing that he won't have to live with the knowledge of what his mother did to him and his sister. *sigh* Terrible, terrible thing all around.
Sad, sad, sad for the children, the mother and the father. The whole thing is tragic.
Rest in Peace, thy oughtta hold those workers accountable for turning her away.
You are kidding right? Blame the social workers? I am certain Michael Moore will make another couple of mil off his next film thanks to audiences like you.
Proudamericanvet,............. Apparently you haven't dealt with government bureaucracy much. Most of them I have dealt with could care less about your concerns or problems as long as they get their paycheck on time. Sometimes it is not very hard to push someone over the line, especially someone who is mentally challenged to begin with............Frankly, your response surprised me, though you were more rational.
I'm sorry this made me almost fall out of my chair laughing, "proudamericanveteran" his/her name tells you he/she has dealt with more bs government bureaucracy then you've probably ever seen in your life time!
crazy b*tch wasn't mentally challenged she was mentally ill SHE didn't fill out the paperwork required, SHE didn't show up at the interview, SHE didn't answer her phone when they tried to contact her, she applied in JULY they needed more documentation from her she never provided it they closed her case in AUGUST a full month later! She called back in NOVEMBER they told her to come back in she showed up in DECEMBER again a full month later but this time she brought a gun, there's no one to blame here but the crazy b*tch that murdered her two children.
There is more to this story, a woman doesn't just take someone hostage, and kill her children for no reason.
Why are people saying the workers should be held accountable? Thousands of people complete that paperwork properly all the time. I think there is a lot more to the story we aren't hearing, like why someone would move their children across the country unless there was a job or family members there. Did the father know where his kids were and is there a reason he wasn't helping support them?
May these poor babies rest in peace.
Because they either don't know how to read or they're getting ready to shoot their own kids in the head the next time they refuse to attend a scheduled meeting. The number of people I've seen defending this horrible beast (the mother, not the caseworker) and her actions makes me sick. No wonder this country is so messed up.
Father?
I read in another article that when the woman left Ohio, she skipped town with the kids and no one knew where she was headed. The paternal grandmother said her son (the children's father) had been trying to find her and the kids, not just for the kids but to get the woman help because she'd been unstable for a while.
All the people who want to blame the welfare staff, system, this party, that party, whatever--nope, sorry. This is not about how the welfare system drives people to kill their kids. It's about one crazy woman and the innocents who suffered at her hands; possibly it's also a reason to wonder why, if she was known for unstable behavior, she hadn't been given psychological help before she ever skipped out of Ohio.
Elspheth You are quick to let everyone off the hook other than the UNSTABLE Mom. Well people who are unstable don't, by definition ,normally do the sane thing. It is a pity that someone who had noticed that she was unstable hadn't tried to help her with the forms and just basically helped her cope, maybe a family member or a TRAINED social worker who should have recognised "Unstable". Or better yet, maybe someone should have protected the children by removing them from her care if she really could not function.
I had a very bad experience with a military member female single parent of two young boys when I was in the military. The commander and I were called by the base police to her home because of a terrible disagreement between her and her neighbor. As the fight escalated both her and her neighbor were accusing each of living in filth so bad that each one said that they could smell the stink of the others home in their backyard. The neighbor female invited us into her house to see if it was clean. It was spotless. That put our female sergeant on the spot to show us her house. I have never seen such filth in my life. I think that the worst was the bathroom where @!$%# and the four year old boy's dirty underpants filled the bath tub about 6 or 8 inches deep and the floor as well. You could not step anywhere on the floor without stepping it it. Both of her children were very sickly had asthma and were regulars at the hospital ER. She chain smoked in the room with the boys. In the kitchen the cabinets had no food; just candy and junk. The refrigerator had only soft drinks. She drove a very nice car and had money to go out all the time. She was getting child support from the boy's dad. The Captain and I both agreed that the children were living in a terribly neglected state and that it was a danger to the children's health. We called the county child protective services and a case worker came over within a couple of hours. The case worker checked out the place and agreed that it was unlivable but said that they could not do anything other than have her take some parenting classes. Both the Captain and I are parents and we wanted those children placed somewhere where they could live in a healthy place at least temporarily. NO Such Luck for the two boys.
I don't disagree with your criticism of the comment of mine that you refer to; let me say then that 98% of the blame lies with the mother. I'd give 2% of the blame to the people who knew her in Ohio, and have been quoted in other articles as saying they knew she was mentally unstable. If they had taken more decisive action before she ever left Ohio to get her some help, and get those kids out of her hands while she got that help, none of this would ever have happened. I've indicated this in other comments I've made in this thread, to some extent. I don't harp on the issue of the woman's surviving relatives being to some degree responsible, mostly because I figure they'll already beating themselves up right now for whatever they may or may not have done.
By the way, I haven't read in any articles that this woman has ever been professionally diagnosed with any real mental disorder. I have to wonder if we're really being too charitable in assuming that she must have been suffering from mental illness. There is the ugly possibility, although we don't want to think about it, that she was just a bad person. This is not a perfect world, and there are people who are simply bad people; we'll never really know. The thing I really want to address is that either way, the welfare office staff are not to blame, and the system may be flawed but that is certainly no reason to shoot your kids. I'm just outraged at the number of people who seem to think that there could ever be any justification for such a heinous act.
Isn't this the second situation like this, in the last two weeks.About a week ago a mother threw her 8 yr. old son out the window and stabbed her 4 year special needs child.The cops had to shoot her because she wouldn't put down the knife.If I'm not mistaken they were also denied food stamps.This happened in Georgia.
I feel bad for both families.I hope to God this doesn't become epidemic across this country.When you have a second situation like this over food stamps something is going on and is drastically wrong here.
I'm pretty sure I maybe wrong about the one in Georgia trying to get food stamps, it might have been another situation.However it's still the second tragedy of a mother killing their kids, and being down and out.
Something still is drastically wrong!
Those poor innocent children deserve our sympathy, and so may their surviving family. The murderer who took their lives deserves none whatsoever.
I'm a single mother who's had difficulty making ends meet, sometimes to the point of not having enough food and not knowing where we'd be living the next day. I've been through the process of applying for benefits in Texas, and it's not that hard. You have to help these people help YOU. You don't just walk into the HHS office and money and food magically appear, and if you don't show up for your interview and don't answer your phone, what should they do? Hire a detective, a psychic, get out the crystal ball to figure out where you went? And then, pick up a can of Poverty-be-Gone and spray you down with it? And don't tell me that she couldn't afford a phone--she had given them a phone number, and she had that gun too, didn't she? I lost a job a while ago, had trouble (like a lot of people) getting another one, and was running through my savings and and groceries fast. I'd applied for benefits and waiting for my appointment was stressful and frustrating. I went to the shelf, took down my .38 pistol...AND TOOK IT TO THE PAWN SHOP. I kept the lights on and food on the table until my benefits were approved, and found work too, thank goodness.
I'm angry at this woman, because my heart aches for these two children. They clearly deserved better; how they died, and how they lived, is an outrage. I can only imagine the life they led before the tragedy, with a mother like that in charge of them. Let's save our sympathy for those who deserve it, like the children of crazy, selfish people. Or the parents who skip meals so that the kids eat--who would never dream of harming their babies no matter what else happens. And give the people working in the welfare office a break too; most of them are doing the best they can.
If you think that killing your children is an understandable reaction to ANY level of stress, there's something seriously wrong with you.
But Elspeth your not insane. People can accomplish much if they have the emotional wherewithal to get up when they have been knocked down once, twice, and they get back up. But what if they don't have a healthy mind, what if they are broken. We just put them in the trash? No one in their right mind kills their kids, this woman was very sick!
Your point is well taken; however, we don't know for sure if this woman was really insane, or just incredibly selfish and immature. We're making a charitable assumption when we say that she was mentally unstable, unbalanced, or insane; we don't really know that. I've read several articles on this incident, and while her in-laws describe her as unstable, I haven't seen anything yet that indicates she'd ever been properly evaluated. I do think that if they really thought she had mental problems, they ought to have taken steps to get her some help, or at least to get the children into safer hands, long before she skipped Ohio. We'd like to think that motherhood is so instinctive that a woman would have to be insane to do something like this; but motherhood is not instinctive, it's learned. Andn it's just possible that this woman was a sociopath who only thought of her own needs; sociopathy does not disable your reproductive organs, and women are not immune to sociopathy.
Really, you and I will never know for sure what was going on inside her head. I'm just appalled at the number of people who can feel so sorry for a child murderer, while simultaneously castigating the people who would have helped her if she'd only let them. I hope you're right; I hope she was really very sick, and that God will forgive her for not knowing what she was doing. But I don't know if it's the case or not; none of us do. And the senseless slaying of two innocent children just pisses me off.
Can't we all agree this is a tragic situation? It's rather pointless now to argue over who's to blame...there's plenty of places and people to point.
The fact is a mother and her kids are dead. Times are hard, and people, then they feel they are against the wall, will do desperate things. This mom felt she and her charges had no way out, and as a result, three lives are gone.
I'm sure that any investigation (as there should be one) will at least shed some light on what led to this, and hopefully prevent it from happening again. To just call people deadbeats looking for handouts is prejudging (ditto for blaming aid workers)...we don't know the full story, and unless we've been there, we shouldn't be casting stones. For now, at least let's keep the children in our hearts...they certainly were the innocent parties in this whole mess.
Wm. Sanders,.......A most caring and rational post, thank you.
My heart cries for those two kids. But, the blame lies with the mother and the mother alone. Whatever her excuse, whatever drove her over the edge, she alone is accountable for what happened to those children. Very sad.
You can hold someone accountable for their actions while at the same time feeling compassion for their pain and suffering.
Right on. But, there's a pretty thin line, I think, between compassion and letting someone off the hook.
I think you are only accountable if you are in a sane state of mind. That poor woman was out of hers, so be kind and feel her pain instead of blaming her. She was trying to put her kids out of misery.....she eventually did, but they suffered in the mean time and that is the tragedy. Death is evidently a sweet release for them.
Mmmmm. . . I hear you, alumett, but I'm not sure how I feel about that. I'm not going to disagree outright, but it's a very slippery slope to let someone slide on the insanity defense - legally or just morally. My problem with it is that you can argue that anyone would have to be "out of their mind" to do something like this. And, clearly, at the moment she pulled the trigger she wasn't "sane" by the common definition. Still, I have a problem with just saying it's OK for people to slip their lead and kill their children or commit any other act.
I guess I feel like we're all compelled to somehow stay sane in spite of the difficulties. While I'm sypathetic to those who just can't seem to hold it together, I'm not quite willing to consider them blameless.
Children - enjoy Heaven. Mom - enjoy Hell.
God knows everyone's heart. I doubt he condemns the mentally ill for actions they can't understand or control. This should come as good news to a great many republicans I've met, since they are starving, and on welfare, and still vote for the party that spends the lion's share of it's time trying to cut their throats.
It's not that simple nor is it black or white. They are all in a "place" where their souls can heal and mend. No one is in heaven or hell........that concept is only in your mind. The poor woman and her kids were in hell before they died. Any agreement here ?
welfare office my ass.
Obviously this woman was mentally ill and didn't receive the help she clearly needed. Whose fault is it? If she's mentally ill (not in able to know right from wrong) then it is society's fault for failing to protect her and her children. Plain and simple.
As a society we tend to look the other way when it comes to the mentally ill, at least until they go over the edge and do something horrible as in this case. So many of the mentally ill end up on the street or incarcerated because there is little to no system in place for these people to get adequate treatment unless they are lucky enough to have health insurance.
Even that doesn't guarantee a person can get help. I had a friend who was severely depressed, so much so that he was continually turned away by private psychiatrists. He was once told that because of the likely hood that he would commit suicide, he represented too great of a potential malpractice liability, so he was turned away (his story, but I believed him). He eventually did take his own life.
AIDS went from being a disease afflicting homosexuals who some believed deserved it based on their lifestyle to a cause du jour well within our lifetime. However, mental illness remains largely stigmatized and has been so for a very long time. Depression can advance to the point where the illness can override natures most basic instinct, that of self-preservation. People should think about that prior to voicing a knee jerk opinion about someone who is mentally ill.
I do feel for those children and I do hope there is a heaven and that they are there right now, in peace.
Well, true but there are not enough people to go around in terms of checking on the poor's welfare. With an exploding population, it is impossible to "support" everyone. Many fall through the cracks. Tragedy is always a potential as society tries as best as possible. Sad reality of life.
Mr. Sanders said it best. We should all agree it was a tragedy and laying blame at anyone's feet without knowing all the facts doesn't make it any less of one. Anytime a parent takes the lives of their children and or their life that's reason to feel compassion not spread blame. In order to take the lives of the people you love you have to have become mentally unbalanced. It is unfortunate that some people are ill equipped to handle life's cruelties. I'm sure the social workers would have worked with the woman had she given them the chance but apparently she had had more than she could endure and went off the deep end.
Bob ----
We know this mother shot and killed her children. That's a fact. Who is to blame for her killing her children except her? It takes more than being mentally unbalanced to shoot and kill one's own children for no good reason other than utter frustration. Are you even listening to yourself?
People risk their own lives to SAVE their children. They don't shoot their children because they're frustrated, or upset with other people. Even mentally unbalanced people who LOVE their children protect their children. They do everything in their power to protect their children - not single-handedly destroy them.
The mother is absolutely to blame, but Bob is right. You can hold someone accountable for their actions and still have compassion.
Now, the 10-year old boy has died. The fact that the 12-year old daughter died on yesterday was horrendous enough. So, here I am writing about this woman two days in a row. I offer heartfelt condolences to the survivors who are feeling the painful loss of these children and those who feel the loss of the shooter, as well. I'm sure someone cared about her, too.
However, this mother's behavior is inexcusable. Do not blame the welfare workers. Do not blame society. This woman had free will. She used her free will to murder her own children simply because she couldn't get control of her day. Granted, she was mentally unstable. Still, that is no good reason to murder her children. I would have understood the outcome much better if she lost total control and shot two or three employees at the welfare office - but - her children? No – inexcusable.
There is no rationale to cover this mother shooting her children because she was frustrated with the system. If she didn't have the appropriate documentation, why not submit the appropriate documentation? But, no, they said they needed additional information and she goes into a selfish rampage and kills her children.
Here's another factor to consider. She came to the welfare office with a gun. Why did she bring the gun to the welfare office? Could it be that she'd already planned to shoot her children at that office? And, as someone else alluded, if her situation was that woeful, why didn't she pawn the gun and buy some food? Why murder her children with that gun?
You know in your heart you should have stopped at the first paragraph.
Why should he have stopped? So his opinion would match yours? So the TRUTH wouldn't be aired for all?
If mom can't/won't provide info, piss on her. Blame her. Not the state, not the welfare people. Mom fscked up, and decided to do something incredibly stupid.
Idiots like you should read the story first, or not respond. Dozens of people here are blaming the blameless. Get over yourselves.
:(
I feel so sorry for the kids. I hope the mother goes to hell. Stupid bit*h.
Incomprehensible tragedy. I weep for the children.
It's not the welfare office workers problem. Having worked well over 30 years full time & the sole supporter of my kids - all 2 of them, I found myself asking for food stamps. Sure, the application is pages long, but depending on your circumstances (which all they require are a few documents, not a novel), most all of the application can be skipped. Even if she didn't have ready access to some of those, the H&W have resources to help her acquire them. These 18 page applications are not a college thesis; it's either A) if yes, fill out this; if B) skip to (in my case, often 2 pages) then continue. And bring in the required paperwork. She was way wacko. My son is paranoid schizophrenic, so is it PC for me to say that? Rest In Peace, children...
Just read more information. Her husband and family members suspected her of being mentally unstable. They told Family Services about their suspicions. So, why weren't the kids taken away from her?? Too many errors here.
well, they should have been there to support her...instead of stating...."she is unstable". It takes a lot of paper work to get any action from the state on such issues. Did these family members offer to take the kids while she got her stuff together ? probably not. I remember when Andrea Yates drowned her five kids. She was so psychotic, she was a zombie....catatonic... but her husband left her alone with the kids. She had mother-in-law coming in the morning, but not soon enough to save the kids. Andrea managed to kill them all before Grandma showed up to the house. Her case went through the cracks as well....mental issues are complicated and unless help is constantly there, disaster can strike.
So this is what it all comes down to. A mother can have a gun. But no food for her children. If she uses the gun to get food, then she goes to jail and loses her kids. If she steals food from the store, she goes to jail. If she threatens a welfare worker, she goes to jail. So she kills her children and herself in despair. This is the America we live in today. I do not believe this was right, they should have just given her foodstamps. I know how welfare works. I've been through it. It is a nightmare which makes you feel demeaned and abused. The Republicans and Right Wingers call themselves Christians. Christians who tote guns and hate the poor. They make laws saying a person can carry a weapon concealed into a public place...and this is what happens. Innocent children are killed. The shame I feel about living in a country full of lying, degenerate hypocrites who want people to own guns but don't want them to have jobs or food is almost unconscionable for me. I cannot bear it without just hating myself and the world I live in. Even though I have fought for my rights and the rights of other poor people my whole life. I put the blame squarely on the shoulders of the State of Texas and their present Governor, Rick Perry, who himself is a killer and a hater of the poor. Look forward to more stories like this as time goes on. Especially from states like Texas, run by Republican reprobates. I'm from Arizona, where they changed the gun-laws to carry concealed, and our congress woman was shot in the head by a madman who never should have been able to purchase a gun.
David---
Examine the options you've listed so that you can excuse this woman for cold-bloodedly murdering her own children. There are no excuses for killing one's own children. Why is that so difficult for people to grasp? Why are so many of you seeking to excuse this horrible unnatural act? You're blaming the country. You're blaming the laws. You're blaming politicians. You're blaming anything except the person who lacked the necessary parental instincts to prevent herself from killing her own children.
I've been through the welfare application process in Texas, and it's not that bad. This has nothing to do with who's governor, which party is in charge, or gun laws.
She submitted an incomplete application, no-showed her interview appointment, and couldn't be reached by phone despite multiple attempts.
There is a process you have to go through, as you well know according to your statements. If they don't screen you, they get blamed for letting welfare cheats game the system (and it does happen sometimes), and if they do screen you they get accused of demeaning people. And that application isn't only to make sure you qualify for benefits--it's also to make sure you know about all the benefits you may be eligible to take advantage of.
I'm a progressive Democrat; I'm against cutting benefits, and for increasing various types of aid such as education assistance. I'd like to see a real healthcare reform bill pass, too, so that mentally ill people can get some help in their own home state (she was from Ohio, not Texas) before they commit violence against innocent children. But I'm also a single mother who's been in some very tight situations, and I have never once considered harming my children, no matter how hopeless my situation seemed.
Yes, in Texas it's comparatively easy to get a gun--it's even easier to sell one once you have it. She could easily have sold the gun and used that money to take care of her kids until her benefits came through. Instead she showed up at the HHS office at nearly five o'clock with kids in tow and a loaded gun in her pocket. She didn't actually do any shooting until after about seven hours of a stand-off with authorities. This was not a spur-of-the-moment loss of control.
I'm all for government programs, and socially responsible policies. I'm also willing to take responsibility for my own actions, and see no reason why others shouldn't do the same. The blame rests squarely on the shoulders of the person who took aim at her own innocent babies, and pulled the trigger. Period.
This isn't an article about guns as the so-called "Progressive" Democrats would have us believe, rather it shows the failure of policies that are so corrupted by politically correct implementation that Americans are being sidelined by uncaring and (probably) Mexicano welfare workers in Texas. The Mexicanos are so sure of themselves that they greatly assist the foreigners and foreign-born to have FREE assistance of any kind--housing, education, food stamps, clothing, pinatas--while neglecting the unemployed AMERICANS. Lopsided and biased implementation of social welfare programs FOR PEOPLE THEY WERE NOT INTENDED TO HELP produces these kinds of events; Americans dead and Mexicans alive and well.
Rest in Peace darling children at the feet of Jesus Christ. Amen.
It would've been nicer if jesus could have sprung for a frickin' sandwich.
Jesus would have sprung for a frickin' sandwich.
So what, he's too proud to offer, she's gotta come crawling on her hands and knees?
Well, that's better than an 18 page application.
It's a natural human reaction to want to find someone to be angry at. But some times these perfect storms happen, and there's no one person or institution to blame... It's a bit of this, and a bit of that. In this case, there are so many factors involved, from personal psychology to the economic system to the bureaucracy to workplace culture, etc. These innocent children deserve for us to examine all of these factors and strive for improvement, so that they will not have died in vain. I do not pray in general, and I am not praying in the way that most probably would, but I just want to say, to my fellow humans... Let us look at this gift of life and think deep within our hearts about what makes it valuable. Are we nurturing our selves and our environment, as a human race, in order for us to be able to fully respect and appreciate these truly valuable aspects of being alive here on earth? Or are we caught up in so much socio-economic political bull@!$%# that the quality of human life is getting lost in the shuffle? Let us join together and harness the power of our minds and our hearts, and do better by the children of the future. Amen.
lil anomie---
That lady killed her own children because she was upset with the welfare workers. She brought a gun to the welfare office with her. She didn't knock the security guard in the head and take his. She already had a plan when she walked through the door with those children. This woman murdering her children has nothing to do with how we should value life because we haven't killed anyone, especially our own children. You're preaching to the choir.
Way to live in a bubble, tortcots.
Your basic thesis is "these things happen" and you say someone else lives in a bubble?
Human Behavior 101--Lesson 1--YOU DO NOT SHOOT YOUR CHILDREN. EVER. FOR ANY REASON.
And don't try to tell me I don't understand what it's like to be desperately poor with mouths to feed, because you'd be dead wrong. I understand it right down to my core, from experience. And my ONLY goal was to get my children fed, clothed, and safe.
Anything else is unthinkable to any decent human being.
There are no metaphors you can dream up that can excuse this mother killing her children. If you believe her actions were remotely justifiable or wave-of-the-hand explainable, then I'm wondering, who really is living in a bubble? Or, has the bubble simply popped in your face - so many suds you cannot even begin to see.
There are no metaphors, and it's not a random "these things happen". These things happen because of various factors. Wave of the hand? Not by a long shot. That was my point. Obviously, this woman pulled the trigger, and was ultimately responsible. But to pretend that she's just an evil crazy person, and everything else is dandy? Not going to prevent it from happening again, and not respectful of the value of human life.
Also, I don't appreciate you taking a prayer that we will learn from this and come together as people to create a better future and trying to throw it back in my face. I'm not here to fight. I'm saying rather than getting caught up in anger and blame, we should look at this as lessons to be learned, about valuing and nurturing quality of life. My hope is that someday that won't be considered some crazy, idealistic view. We do make all of this up, and we can do better. For everyone, including the mentally ill and their children.
22 deleted, Daily-4176561 applauding the death. Banned, super basic trolling career comes to a close.
Tragic end to a sad mess.
Mental health issues meets gun in Texas.
Replying to Risika67:
Ignorance? People with your mindset constitutes the epitome of ignorance. You've jumped on a spinned folly that your clientele are "lazy!" Why didn't you not also incorporate the expression "shiftless?" If tomorrow your workplace announced that it had just 3 meaningful jobs with benefits for new hires, you'd have a line of applicants that extended out of the building, down the street, and around the corner. You postulates that you works for your money but leaves out an important element— you were given the job opportunity to work! I also worked and paid into the F.I.C.A. Don't forget that the "F" stands for "Federal," the same source from which comes your salary. I had a high salary and paid more into the FICA than some peoples annual salaries but have no disdain for people not working for corporations/businesses that makes millions/billions and pays its workers minimum wages with no benefits. Those jobs won't pay their bills, does allow people to afford medical care, insurances, etc, and disqualifies those that undertakes these jobs, other benefits that they need while trying to get back on their feet. Their transportation expenses alone to/from work eats up a minimum wage job's pay. I paid into the FICA so that people such as those children could benefit. The agency's protocol is setup to be cumbersome,nosy, with built-in caveats to deny people from qualifying rather than to hire people persons with the acumen to recognize the principle of Maslow's Hierarchy of Basic Needs. You sir, should caucus for Gingrich as you too feel that if this lady had kept her 10 and 12 years olds out of school or not home-schooled them and put them to work cleaningup bathrooms, took a menial minium wage job herself job, then perhaps you'd not have called her lazy. Reasonable people whose sagittal sutures fused, and have at least an ounce of COMMON sense, knows that ALL people are not workforce ready and will need some assistance— hence, food stamps from FICA because we do not want those children to go hungry or die while waiting for their caregiver to get back on her feet. The next person that you determine in your peon mind to be lazy, give them your job or your relative's and you/they go take a minimum wage job and see if they won't take it! Your statement was/is imbecilic, insensitive, and assinine.
Excuse errors/typos in the above post. One I'll correct here: "does allow people to afford medical care" should have been "does not." a few commas are missing but the my message is clear!
This is so sad...The people that should have been helping the people should grieve today that we have failed to take care of our own through human compassion...Not only in the immediate need this family had but the needs of the people that were not met before and what will not be met after...This woman very well could have been very sick as we now know that 90% of all mentally ill have infectious organisms DNA attached to their genes....But we have fallen so far behind other countries none of these people are ever treated with the real treatment they need to kill the stealth pathogens infecting them with prion like proteins because our medical societies have lied about them for the last 35 yrs. to protect profits...While China, Sweden, India, Japan, etc. all work on the cures with stem cells and antibiotics---we are still stuck with "We don't have them." Because the infections can now swap their infectious DNA with ours to remain hidden but very much infective to cause all syndromes of unknown origin...Including psychiatric illness' of all types... We can weep for this family who was lost in the ignorance of lack of dissimination caused by greed of denial of stealth pathogens to protect profits for all things immunological...Because as long as they remain hidden they think their profits will continue....But as other countries now shame the US by even naming the syndromes what ever they want for the infectious organisms with the prion proteins that cause them - it will forever be in our history of crimes against humanity....
Government Bureaucracy working in Texas...Only for the 1%