Terelyn...Your ignorance is shocking! In truth the ENTIRE world does indeed revolve around our children. They will grow up to take their rightful place as the leaders of this world someday and I for one would like for them to have been nurtured in kindness not hatred.

Scrooge.

Sorry, not my job to protect your delicate little blossom of a child. If they're going to be so traumatized by something, out in public, then keep them at home where you can guard their tender little psyche.

It's also not your place to tell others what to do with their children, nor is it your place to deem children segregated from society because of your beliefs. How about this logic, Someone sets your house on fire and tells you, if you don't like it, don't live in your house? Same logic your agenda is showing. It's invading your rights, your ability to cope, your ability to live life the way you want to and for those around you. In what way does your disparaging remark even make sense? It's people like you that set the trend for a downward spiral due to lack of acceptance and proper attitudes. Where the hell did our morals go?

YOUR world may revolve around YOUR children. Mine does not and it's extremely tiresome to have to deal with people that think everyone must cater to their kids, at all times.

Whether you like it or not, that's the way it is.

That, I can understand and reason with. There are also points in time where mild respect and discipline of the tongue should be used, but alas, most adults simply aren't adults. I don't see where this is a catering issue, but I see it as a right to display one's opinion. Granted, that may be fine, but if it has the ability to harm a child, (which in this case I don't see) then I'd say it needs taken down.

SKH-2736757, I find your comment amusing to say the least

"They will grow up to take their rightful place as the leaders of this world someday" - Have you SEEN how kids behave these days? There are, admittedly, exceptions to the rule but most are nasty, selfish, stupid and lack any sort of common sense whatsoever. Every generation it gets worse and I for one blame the parents

Try teaching them how to read, spell properly, do basic math, treat others with some sort of respect and have some sort of respect for themselves. After that a skeleton Santa doesn't seem like that big a deal

And, FYI, it IS a free speech issue and the holidays HAVE become over-commercialized. It's gotten so bad that if you tell people you only give gifts as you see fit, never expect gifts and refuse to buy them out of guilt people look at you like you spit on their mother or something

So rather than vandalizing the display take the time to open a dialog. If your children ask "why" then discuss comparative religion and atheism with them.

I for one applaud the creativity of the "bones" Santa.

I'm not Christian, but I don't get why you would be so hateful to kids, Terelyn. Or you are just a troll. If other faiths or those with no faith are represented if they want to be why get upset about it? And I don't get why putting something out that could scare kids is necessary?

I don't care if people put up a tree, and if a church wants a navity it doesn't bother me and my kids know what it means even if they aren't Christian. While I don't want one in my yard why get worked up if the church has one? And Merry Christmas is just well-wishes, so why not enjoy it?

How is not putting public displays that are disturbing to kids catering to anyone? Terelyn, you aren't even making sense..lol. You have no idea how anyone here raises her/his kids, and is not putting a scary version of Santa out such a big deal? I mean I see the point, but couldn't it have been made without hanging Santa on a cross? I don't see Santa related to religion anyway, and why do that to kids who aren't even part of the discussion?

Terelyn: "it's extremely tiresome to have to deal with people that think everyone must cater to their kids, at all times."

THANK YOU :)

When I decide to vandalize Xmas/holiday displays I want everyone to remember that this has been allowed. When a city wakes up to baby jesus being mounted by a sheep and the menorah sticking out of a hogs rectum with shrimp in place of the candles I do not expect anyone to complain.

Just remember, Terelyn & Eugene - one day those children that you so despise will be the ones in charge, regardless of your opinion of them. That's not to say that they'd actually remember or attempt to carry out any revenge for any slight you might have given them, but rather now is the time to influence their future behavior and decisions that will affect you.

digitalnoise: Try reading. Our issue isn't with the children, it's with the PARENTS who expect everyone else to help raise their kids. And it's not my job to influence children I have no semblance of authority over.

Just remember, Terelyn & Eugene - one day those children that you so despise will be the ones in charge, regardless of your opinion of them.

Lets just hope the children in charge are more grown up that the ones currently in charge. And that they were raised to be reasonable instead of getting upset over something they find 'disrespectful'.

When I decide to vandalize Xmas/holiday displays I want everyone to remember that this has been allowed. When a city wakes up to baby jesus being mounted by a sheep and the menorah sticking out of a hogs rectum with shrimp in place of the candles I do not expect anyone to complain.

Get out much?

This display is something that should just be ignored. Just a tasteless prank by someone who thinks they are being relevant.

Terelyn...Your ignorance is shocking! In truth the ENTIRE world does indeed revolve around our children. They will grow up to take their rightful place as the leaders of this world someday and I for one would like for them to have been nurtured in kindness not hatred.

SKH-2736757, I agree with Terelyn. I really don't give a rat's ass about your kids. Those are your responsibility, not mine. I can't stand the adults who use their kids as an excuse to legislate their morality upon everybody else.

As far as displays in front of court houses are concerned, there shouldn't be any. Christian, Christmas or otherwise. If they banned displays on government property we wouldn't be having bullsh!t issues like this in the first place.

Hmm. To the above posters who don't want to help raise (my) children - awesome. I don't really want you too, either. I would far rather have people who are decent infuences around my kids. That way they can (hopefully) grow into loving, charitable, respectful adults. Religion and first amendment issue aside, this was just a crummy display of holiday "cheer." Way to be downers.

This is about the death of christmas, anyone who doesnt know this is stupid

Santa isnt crucified, hes just hangin there

under god, santa's job is dead, from commericalism etc

btw imma athiest >.>

member then on thankgiving, people were meant to be thankful for what they have, ONLY to camp out once a year to buy cheap stuff...

yaaaaaa

gooooo

america!

This is about the death of christmas, anyone who doesnt know this is stupid

Santa isnt crucified, hes just hangin there

under god, santa's job is dead, from commericalism etc

btw imma athiest >.>

member then on thankgiving, people were meant to be thankful for what they have, ONLY to camp out once a year to buy cheap stuff...

yaaaaaa

gooooo

america!

This is about the death of christmas, anyone who doesnt know this is stupid

Santa isnt crucified, hes just hangin there

under god, santa's job is dead, from commericalism etc

btw imma athiest >.>

member then on thankgiving, people were meant to be thankful for what they have, ONLY to camp out once a year to buy cheap stuff...

yaaaaaa

gooooo

america!

I wonder if they crucify a bunny instead of Jesus for Easter.

I think that religious displays of any kind on public or government property should not be permitted at all. That would put an end to this argument very quickly. We are supposed to have a separation of church and state in this country and allowing religious displays on government property seems to b a clear violation of this doctrine. Santa may not be considered as a religious symbol by some, which I only partially agree with, but there is no mistaking the cross as a religious symbol. Santa may have become more of a secular image of the season in this country, but in many other countries and cultures Santa is still very much a religious symbol.

Terelyn is absolutely right.

I am so sick of these people using children as a tool to push their social agendas. The problem is that people use the excuse "it harms children" for EVERYTHING. It has turned into a weapon to push whatever social issue they are focused on. People try to use the pathetic "Think of the children" excuse to stop television programs they don't like, music they don't like, video games, magazines, art, and any other form of freedom of speech they do not agree with. They have turned them into weapons, used by people who want to force their ideas and morals on everyone else. Freedom means that EVERYONE is free, not just you and your family.

Your rights to procreate stop at my rights to live my life. Your children are not unique, they are not special snowflakes, and they are not my responsibility. Stop using them as a weapon to push your social agenda.

Here's what I will never understand. . . an atheist work goes up, and Christians get offended and wonder why atheists have to do things that offend Christians, yet these same Christians often have no problem placing a Nativity scene in the same place, ignoring the fact that this may offend atheists.

It's like the conversation I had with my friend. He goes on forums and says, "God says. . ." and gets upset when atheists respond to that "There is no God." I asked, "They probably get just as upset with you when you mention God to begin with. Aren't you doing the same thing to them?"

Simply put, you're all doing it to each other. . .

If it has the ability to infringe on what a parent is teaching their child to believe, than it is wrong. I dont particularly see the skeleton as a "anti christmas" thing, some people are funny that way. I see the beheading of it to be detrimental to a child. Imagine the image of santa being headless as one of your last memories of christmas. I also wonder why people have to be hateful about a belief that many people have. If you dont believe, fine. Dont celebrate it. That is your right, as well. The hatefulness is the biggest issue here.

AMEN PJ697731!

and...

Eugene Saxe

digitalnoise: Try reading. Our issue isn't with the children, it's with the PARENTS who expect everyone else to help raise their kids. And it's not my job to influence children I have no semblance of authority over.

@ Eugene Sax: Try reading. The story was never about kids' their parents raising them, or wanting anyone else to raise them! The story is about the SANTA that has been vandalized. Terelyn is the one that jumped the track with a nasty attitude.
Whether or not you agree to this kind of expression is your business. But others' have just as much right to have their opinion and speak it just as you.

And I agree with PJ's statement. There are more hateful, self-absorbed people in this world now, that don't give a rat's ash about anything but themselves. The problem with that, is they think they should also have the right to run everyone else, or condemn them for the way they run themselves.

I personally wouldn't want any of you snobbish, heartless clones of human beings, having ANYTHING to do with my kids. You'd scare the hell out of them!

As for Terelyn, I feel very, very sorry for you. You must live a desolate life.

If it has the ability to infringe on what a parent is teaching their child to believe, than it is wrong

NO, infringing on what you are teaching your children does NOT make it wrong.

You can use that excuse for EVERYTHING, that is the problem. You don't like the clothes someone wears, use that excuse. You don't like a TV program, use that excuse. You don't like fat people, Jews, African Americans, homosexuals, Muslims... use that excuse.

YOU have the right to teach YOUR kids whatever you want, other people have the right to teach THEIR kids what THEY want. And other have the right to live THEIR life the way THEY want.

YOUR children do not supersede the rights of other people.

SKH

OUR world doesn't revolve around YOUR children---terelyn's statement hit the moron on the head. Of course, yours is too pointed to get it.

ram

Your decrying of scary Santas would make sense, if you weren't one of the idiots filling childrens' heads with images of a "vengeful and jealous God".

I feel that many atheist usages of free speech are mockeries of, or some other negative reaction to organized religion. - THAT's why there are complaints. A manger scene, menorah, tree, etc, were not designed to mock athiests.

Terelyn stated: "Oh, think of the children!"

If not the children, who then, you, or something like you? I say something, because to me, any inanimate object has more personality and heart than you.

"Sorry, not my job to protect your delicate little blossom of a child."

That's good, because I doubt anyone would ever think of putting their child under your care in any way shape or form.

"If they're going to be so traumatized by something, out in public, then keep them at home where you can guard their tender little psyche."

I'm sure if the children stay away from people such as yourself, they will stand a pretty good chance at not being traumatized.

"Regardless of what some parents seem to think, the world does not revolve around your child."

Tell us, what does it revolve around in someones unfeeling life? Does it revolve around the ego maybe?

"Your world may revolve around your children"

Better our children than ourselves. Who wants to be as uncaring or loveless as you?

"Mine does not"

Gee, what a surprise, who could tell with that attitude?

"and it's extremely tiresome to have to deal with people that think everyone must cater to their kids, at all times."

Funny, I don't recall anyone personally asking you cater to anybody at all times.

"Whether you like it or not, that's the way it is'

In your little corner of reality, yes. But not everyone has your take on reality, now do they?

Eugene Saxe stated: "And it's not my job to influence children I have no semblance of authority over."

Every time you step out into the world, where children can see you and the things you do, it influences them. Children not only learn from the parents and the schools, they learn from the actions of those who may not even see those kids, but those kids may just see them.

Only in America

"Regardless of what some parents seem to think, the world does not revolve around your child."

Tell us, what does it revolve around in someones unfeeling life? Does it revolve around the ego maybe?

Be careful discussing the "ego" of someone else, having children is the greatest ego trip anyone undertakes. Think about the reasons that people have children... go on, really think about it. "I want to validate myself as a woman/man", "It's my dream to have children", "I want to feel the love of a child", "I . . . I . . . I . . ." Every single reason that people have children is a selfish one. Whether it's to fill a craving for unconditional love, a desire, a dream, whatever. Every reason stems from the parents WANTING something and using those children to boost their ego. Now they feel validated, now they feel like they have a purpose, now they feel more love. Having children is all about your ego.

Funny, I don't recall anyone personally asking you cater to anybody at all times.

So you are not aware of the countless "Focus on the Family" style groups that consistently ask people to "cater" to their demands? You don't hear these activists telling people how to live their lives, all supported with the "think of the children" excuse? You don't see parents ask people to change their lives, because it might offend their children?

You must live under a rock.

Terelyn -

So I guess in your opinion, it would be fine and dandy to have sex in front of the courthouse also. Just because some people have common decency and can show respect to one another (by letting those people ENJOY this time of year, regardless of their own personal beliefs), that doesn't mean that they are catering to someone's children. I personally have no children or family and don't celebrate Christmas because of that, but I'm not going to begrudge people of their right to enjoy the holiday simply because I'm a miserable old bat.

terelyn,

Your response about children is so self-centered, conceted, arrogant and stupid that it amazes me it is allowed. Freedom of speech is one thing but stupid is entirely another.

I dont use my kids for an excuse for anything. I do advocate their view not being slaughtered because someone defamed a powerful figure to them. I get that people have their beliefs, but I dont stand outside screaming that you are wrong on your beliefs.

Wow, the stupidity of this world is amazing...first off, i am a christian. I have a hindu friend, a mormon friend, two atheist friends and they agree with me on this. Now having said that, CHRISTMAS is a christian celebration. It is not a holiday or santa day...it is a CHRISTIAN CELEBRATION. I respect that, and it is called CHRISTmas. This is not art in any way WHATSOEVER. This is not artistic and does not have a greater meaning. It is disrespectful to other human being beliefs. IT SHOULD BE TAKEN DOWN OR BURNED. All of these people believe they are owed something because they do not believe something or have a first amendment right...you do have a right, but when it is in spite then it is WRONG. And all this crap i have heard about it representing commercialism is so they have an excuse to 'show their beliefs.' This shows nothing except the seperation of America. May god or the lack of a god help us all in our journey. And yes, it is every adults job to watch over the younger, weaker members of society, children included. You are trash if you support this.

No one have to cater to other people's children, but if you are a human with decency, discipline, and a law abiding person who demand some kind of respect, then you must respect other peoples and their kids, so you may get some respect. I believe that I don't need to be a religious person to earn trust and respect, I also respect any person who has religious belief. well, except for the ones that think that if you are not from their belief, you are de devil. for you to know. my neighbors celebrate all kind of festives, and I don't, but if it make them happy then I am happy for them too.

And one final note on that...they do have the right to post this 'art' if they want to by free speech and all that jazz. But does that make it right, no...and everyone goes on the belief that morals are all an opinion...yes they are, but every human being who has a clear mind knows that this is not just an expression or to show that they have a right...it is to SPITE and we all know this because that is the mindset of America as a whole, and unless this garbage stops, it will not improve. I don't shove my religion down peoples throats. I read my bible, pray and stick to myself...everyone says christians are crazy and go above and beyond...what do you call a skeleton in a santa suit ON A CROSS? If it wasnt on a cross, that would be something different. But the cross represents christianity and is aimed at that.

Hello - Christmas is Christian yes but it was instated to take place of the Pagan solstice and that's where many of the traditions come from. I'm not even going to go into Christianity borrowing most of it's ideas from other religions. Both of the major Christian holidays(Christmas & Easter) were placed on the dates they were to coincide with Pagan holidays and make for easier converts.

Anyway Christmas isn't about Christ anymore there's more commercial ideology in the holiday that Christian.

As for it being disrespectful to other human beings beliefs, just about everything is disrespectful to someone somewhere, whats your point? someone taking offense does not make Freedom of Speech go away.

I must admit to checking back on my post because I wanted to see if it would be collapsed. To my amusement it was. I find it ironic that I have on many occasions seen comments left open that verged on threats of violence or used misspelled forms of obscenities that anyone could decipher immediately. Apparently the absolute worst thing you can do to an atheist is pray for them. Odd that if I had said "Terelyn you are a selfish (insert B word) and I hope something awful happens to you" the comment would probably have been left open but my threat to pray for her was so offensive when I literally meant I will pray she has a personal awakening and sees herself as a part of the larger community with both benefits and responsibilities she needs to embrace. I didn't even threaten to pray she might find Jesus or some other form of faith just that she mature socially.

I am noting this not because it distresses me to have the comment collapsed but because it is part of a bigger picture I see happening in our society. In my culture (rural and southern) we do throw out religious statements randomly just as people from some other communities pepper their speech with obscenities. What does distress me is how confused our larger society has become when I see people thinking the way Terelyn does. I have friends who are of different faiths and some who lack a religion. My youngest son is a Buddhist. One of my friends is Native American and frequently burns sage to pray for my health problems to relent. While my faith doesn't match theirs I am not offended when they say they disagree with me and if they offer to do their version of praying for me I am grateful. To me it is their way of saying "I care about you and wish you well." I respect the spirit of the message even if their form of expression is different. This makes us a cohesive community and in hard times we pull together even if we have different religious principals.

Personally I find the idea of the skeleton Santa on the cross offensive because it is likely to upset children. I think I would feel the same way if I saw a giant Barbie doll depicted as a victim of violence so it isn't the holiday. Even though I am a Christian do not know if an obvious lifelike representation of Jesus on the cross would be a comfortable thing to display publicly and think it would be better to use Nativity Scenes etc. Death, Crucifixion, violence and all that come with them really are a lot for small children and even some adults to feel comfortable with. There are easier ways to share ones message without risking offending someone for a logical reason... ie blood, gore, death. Surely there was a way to argue against Christianity without doing something that might frighten small children.

The approach Terelyn and others like her took verged upon bullying. "I can't shake the faith of an adult but I can frighten and intimidate their children" seem like a pretty clear cut case to me.

What concerns me is that people like Terelyn marginalise themselves. She has firmly built a shell around herself and like a porcupine with its quills extended she has warned us all off. Times are hard now and seem to be getting harder. What happens to people like her? Atheists supposedly believe in evolution. Is not our social instinct and our collective concern for the good of our society's offspring the cornerstone of what makes us successful as a species? Without that ability to cooperate none of the rest would be possible.

Failed Christians have the fear of Hell looming over them. Is there an atheist equivalent of that? What happens when your right to your social values makes you an evolutionary dead end? Times are hard and they are getting harder. I must admit if given the chance to help someone my first choice would be the person who cares about others. Terelyn flaunts the fact that she has no concern for the well being of other people's children in a way that seems very close to bullying. What happens to people like her in the end?

SomethingToAdd: I'm sure many of those who want nothing to do with your spawn have kids of their own. A dollar says some of them do just as good a job at parenting as you, maybe even better :O

Only in America-2604171: No. I'm not an influence, I'm not a role model. I'm not a PARENT. I didn't make it, don't ask me to raise it. Don't pull out old-school crap like it's everyone's responsibility. I'm responsible enough to not bring more kids into this world; that's where my responsibility ends.

ConwayTwitter: Try reading. My original comment had nothing to do with the article, I merely complimented Terelyn on their brilliance:

Terelyn: "it's extremely tiresome to have to deal with people that think everyone must cater to their kids, at all times."

THANK YOU :)

Anything posted since has been in response to people responding to me. It's called "trying to have an intelligent conversation", but it doesn't work very well around here.

Eugene Saxe

SomethingToAdd: I'm sure many of those who want nothing to do with your spawn have kids of their own. A dollar says some of them do just as good a job at parenting as you, maybe even better :O

That may or may not be but I do refrain from trying to go to their schools and show a video saying atheists will burn in Hell or some other such nonsense which in my mind is pretty much equivalent to the display put on with the Santa on the cross thing. This is not about who is the better parent it is about respecting a parent's right not to have their small child frightened or upset in a public place. Honestly it is about respecting the rights of all parents no matter what their religious views. I know quite a few people who are atheists who give their children presents "from Santa" and I think they would be equally upset. After all Santa is a beloved childhood fantasy figure like the tooth fairy not a religious figure - Saint Nicholas is a legitimate Catholic saint but I am fairly sure he didn't have any reindeer or deliver Xboxes. Can't the atheists get the message across is a way that doesn't upset small children? I think removing the head was actually a good idea. The headless costume is much easier for me to explain to my daughter because I could tell her that it is like when our church drapes a purple cloth on the cross at Easter where as a skull has all of the subtly of a sledgehammer.

@bvhaast344 - thank you! they shouldn't be allowed. Take it to your own front yard, people. Or are you too chickensh*t to own your beliefs??

but rather now is the time to influence their future behavior and decisions that will affect you

Do you mean influence them, as in raise children with lies (Santa, Easter Bunny, etc...) only to later crush those fantasies and tell them that Mommy and Daddy have been lying to them all those years. Or blackmailing them with gifts in order to try to get them to behave?

Or maybe you mean influencing them by brainwashing them with any religion and making them fearful for their very soul if they don't do exactly what that institution says they should before the child has any notion of what their being indoctrinated into?

One would think that the truth would be a welcome influence and what children should be raised with rather than lies and deception.

I could tell her that it is like when our church drapes a purple cloth on the cross at Easter where as a skull has all of the subtly of a sledgehammer.

Because a cross is so subtle. You know. That thing that was used solely as a form of sadistic punishment and execution.

PJ-697731: This is not about who is the better parent it is about respecting a parent's right not to have their small child frightened or upset in a public place. Honestly it is about respecting the rights of all parents no matter what their religious views.

What about my right as an adult to not have the world dumbed-down for me? What about my rights as a non-parent?

It's still the same argument. You want things done YOUR way to make YOUR job as a parent easier. Don't want your precious frightened or upset in public? Better keep them home. And turn off the TV, it's way too violent. No radio either. Newspapers are full of violence and death too.

Get used to it, the world is a sh!tty, scary place. Precious better get used to it quick, or life's going to suck in that windowless room you're constructing to keep them safe from reality.

Baseball Purist:

I agree with the intent of your post 100% I think the display is one of those extraordinary "thought provoking" things we just have to look past and not take personally, ignore it. Like watching you tube videos of folks acting stupid.

Why can'y people just set out flowers? But I'm sure they would offend someone.

Santa Claus is Fake & it has NOTHING to do with Christmas. Christmas is ALL about the Birth of CHRIST. Santa should have been put away a very long time ago. Christmas is a christian holiday that celebrates the comming/birth of Jesus Christ and anything else is a false teaching or a "brain-washing" for our children. I was raised to "believe" in Santa Claus which leaves you kinda empty when you come of age & learn the truth of Christmas. It is easier to be honest with our children (and ourselves for that matter) from the get-go, no matter what the subject is. Same for the Easter Bunny.

that's right - "you were raised." But others were raised differently and that's what makes us a diversified country. You're beliefs are no more important than the next guys.

your a fool educate yourself.

Big Jhon

I do agree that Christmas is a bit over-commercialized, but getting rid of Santa Claus entirely isn't the solution.

If you wish to raise your children that Santa isn't real from the get-go, that's fine. Besides, I'm pretty that even if you didn't, I have no doubt you would raise them so that they would know the spiritual significance of Christmas.

Even though Christmas is a Christian holiday, it is observed by many non-Christians. It's a season when people try a little harder to be good to one another. Santa is a symbol of that. The warmth and goodwill of Christmas time comes from people trying to bring out the best of each other.

Sure, Santa as we know him today was manufactured by Coca-Cola, but that doesn't change the fact that Santa is a symbol of peace and joy.

Jesus was not born on December 25th December 25th is a pagan holiday

Jesus was born on the 1st day of the Feast of Tabernacles! In the year 5 BCE, this fell in the month of September. Sorry all you missed his real Birthday.

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Jesus-Birthday

Funny how many say they are christian and do not even know they are celebrating on a pagan holiday with pagan traditions. Xmas Tree anyone. LOL

I have nothing against Christians. I just do not follow the religion. I tend to hold onto Native American traditions. But hey happy holidays.
Sounds like the people are just exercising freedom of speech.

yes it is spot on. i find it funny how the "christians" that are so upset over this maybe affecting their children -think it's okay to add decapitation to the list. wow. just wow.

Xmas Tree anyone. LOL

Actually I agree with everything you said except the part about the Christmas tree. The process of cutting down the tree and putting it back up again is symbolic of Jesus's death and resurrection. It was meant to provide light for the Christmas plays. It has nothing to do with the pagan wreath which was said to be decorated like a christmas tree. It is what so many pagans mistakenly think of with when they think of "christmas tree". The origins of the wreath and the christmas tree are not the same.

Christmas, Easter, .... you pretty much name the "Christian" holiday and you can dig up the actual PAGAN roots of it with minimal effort. It was part of the attempt to brainwash the masses and push more converts.

Big John:

Actually "axial tilt" is the "reason for the season". In many northern hemisphere cultures, the days after the winter solstice were times of great celebration (Saturnalia, Mithras' day of birth, Yule &c. &c.). The early church in c 325 CE, took over these celebrations and insisted that the birth of Christ was the reason for the celebration.

So, when you rue the loss of Santa and the Easter Bunny, remember who told you about these myths, and then who told you of the myth of the redeeming saviour.

Actually MDH, you are probably mistaken Big John for being Catholic. Not all christians are Catholic and so the importance of Saints ( such as St. Nick) are more or less disregarded. It is the same thing with the Easter Bunny. As a child, I never concerned myself with the Easter Bunny; only what Christ did on the cross for me. It's a pity you think of him as a myth.

But in actually, you do fulfill the verse in Romans 1:22 where it says "Claiming to be wise, they became fools"

Why is it that everyone is focused on what "they should do" or how to influence "their kids" and "your kids".

It's Christmas for Christ's sake. Where's the peace? Where's the love? Where's the warmth?

Every day there are people who kill, people who rob, people who cause pain to someone else. Why is it that we (as people) get offended when we see someone else's expression of reality. I mean seriously, has anyone ever seen Santa for real? So how do we know what he looks like?

We don't. Does he exist? We will probably never prove or disprove it. We all should try to take things less personal. Try it for a week. You will probably find yourself less stressed out.

Now, it may or may not have been the best display of holiday-themed art, but try to keep peace between you and the world around you. That's what I do, and my problems are a little easier to manage.

Sorry about the rant. And sorry if I have offended anyone. But let's try to be the change we wish to see in the world.

Happy Holidays to all!

big john

Yes santa is fake but so is the birth of jesus! the christans stole a pagan holiday that was around for centuries!!!! all it takes is a little research.

Ill be honest here dk-3500585. Im a Christian but the birth of Christ being on December 25th was rival the Pagan holiday, same with Easter. But nowadays, Christmas is to be a time of love and giving. Which is what jesus would have wanted. Jesus WASNT born in September like someone said, no one really knows, they know it was between September and May, probably November through April is more likely. Lets not argue, we all have different beliefs, but Christmas was put on the 25th to rival Pagan holidays, HOWEVER the beliefs of that holiday are to celebrate the birth of Christ, even if he wasnt born on the 25th. Now its evolved into a day that everyone celebrates. I dont care who celebrates it, but we Christians need to celebrate the REAL meaning behind it. I dont find the crucified Santa as offensive. I dont get why an Atheist mom AND a Christian son would do that, though. I mean if Christians are offended by crucifixitions, why is the symbol of Christianity a cross which Christ was crucified on? I dont think they should allow it even if I dont find it offensive. Atheists can do and say pretty much whatever they want, but if a Christian puts sometime up bashing Atheists, they'd throw a fit. Thats just how I see it. All in all, Christ wasnt born December 24th, Christmas was put there on the 25th to rival Pagan Holidays. But does it matter now? Christians outnumber Pagans like 15-1 in this world anyways. Christians put Christmas on the 25 to rival the Pagan holiday, BUT the Pagans celebrate the solstice, We Christians celebrate the birth of Christ, so really we didnt steal anything, we just put it on the same day or around the same time, the beliefs and reason for the celebrations are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

You've all missed one point about Atheists. I've read a lot of comments about what if others decided to bash Atheists beliefs. Atheism is the rejection of beliefs and claims of others. Not a positive belief in anything. Atheism is simply saying that based on evidence, I cannot accept your position as feasible for me. Putting up ANY religious symbols on public ground is technically "bashing" Atheism. This is why Atheists would like to have these religious symbols removed from government properties in the first place. There would be no arguments if they were.

One of the most disturbing comments yet... "Christmas was put there on the 25th to rival Pagan Holidays. But does it matter now? Christians outnumber Pagans like 15-1 in this world anyways. "

YES!! It matters, because the world is not yours, and others have the right to support whatever views we want. Now Christians are trying to screw up Halloween also with Jesusween. And it's people like you who are rooted in the religion who say, well most of us are already Christians, so why not let majority rule? The answer is, because we have the right to not be forced into a religion. What you are asking for is Anti-American.

Ok, so we cant hang our christmas decorations, but we are supposed to be ok with letting those who dont believe mock us because of our beliefs? Because that is what this seems to be doing.

Big John;

St Nicholas was a real person who believed in Christ’s directive to sell all you have and follow him. He did that and gave it all to the poor. He also was one of the members of the council of Nicaea, and actually had a knock down drag out with another member. His Birthday is, oddly enough December 6^th.

And yes joeyfromcali;

December 25 was a pagan feast day (Backus I think) so the early Christians decided to celebrate Christ’s birthday then to compete with pagan feast (remember, most early Christians were former pagans). But it does not matter what day he was actually born on but simply that we remember him.

Which is what jesus would have wanted.

How many newborns know what they want? Over the approximately 33 years of his life he is never credited with expressing desires regarding Christmas.

What has always puzzled me is how the birth of an illegitimate child morphed into the commercialization of material goods.

It doesn't matter what they think. The constitution guarantees you can believe in any fairytale you want to.LOL

That's right. There are a lot more people who believe there is a greater chance of meeting Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairie, and the Easter Bunny than meeting jesus. They certainly leave more tangible gifts.

As much as I dislike your first comment, you are spot on here. Some people do go out of there way to offend, and some go out of their way to be offended. There is freedom of expression, in action in these displays. What better place than the seat of government.

If you do not like the message, (if indeed their is one), ignore it.

Freedom of expression can only go so far. This is taking aim at a character who sole appeal to you very young children. What would your reaction be if they had depicted an African American Santa on that cross? Some things are not meant for public display.

"What would your reaction be if they had depicted an African American Santa on that cross? Some things are not meant for public display."

It would have been decidedly-similar to my present reaction. Which is to say, I have no qualms with what they're doing. Further, this whole "won't someone think of the children" record is tired, broken, and empty. Find a reasonable point of discussion, please.

"What would your reaction be if they had depicted an African American Santa on that cross?" - Well, since every depiction I have seen of Santa depicts him as Caucasian then I would yell racism, but that's only because I have something to back that up

As far as the display, with as commercialized as the holidays have become I actually agree with the people that put the display up. 'Christmas has been Crucified' is how I see the statement, and they're right, the meaning of Christmas is largely dead. We broke records with holiday spending this year if I'm not mistaken...

Skup wrote: Freedom of expression can only go so far

True, but who decides how far. The city council in this case has made their decision.

Griff999: I do not need Terelyn to be concerned about my children or my grandchild. I know what to do, so does the rest of our family.

Besides, Leesburg is around 1000 miles away. We will not be making the trip.

I really do get what you are saying and agree up to a point. If this didn't affect kids much more than adults I would totally agree with you. I'm just saying argue with the adults and pick something they would get instead of doing something scary and creepy that gets kids upset more than parents.

I thought it was kind of interesting that my 7 year old (not a typical 7 year old in her level of understanding) saw the picture when it had a head and was upset. She asked me why someone did that and I tried to explain. She rolled her eyes and said if they wanted to say that Santa and commercialism have nothing to do with the supposed birth of Christ and it is all hypocritical, why not just either put up a sign so people can see it clearly, celebrate how they want and don't worry about anyone else, or grow up, don't buy presents, and stop scaring kids...lol. (and yes, she did say that)

ram - you should (as the parent) explain to your child that they're not going to agree with everything in the world. As a result, you should encourage them to adopt a "live and let live" approach to dealing with others. Some of your daughter's points are very good. Others ("I don't agree with it/it is inflammatory so it should go away") are naive -- which is to be expected of children. You, however, should know better...

(In the interest of candor: This is my opinion. You're free to teach your kids anything you'd like. However, I'd appreciate if you didn't blame everyone BUT your child for the way they process reality)

Ram, your answer should have been, "because we live in a free society where people are free to express their opinons how THEY see fit --- not how you see fit." If people raised their children with the knowledge of what is in the Constitution, then they wouldn't be so upset when they see someone display an opinion different from their own!

BadWolf-404040

The skeleton dressed as Santa only symbolized the VERY LEAN state of our nations economy.

By the way; I love your moniker being a former armor officer myself; 2/102.

Terelyn,

I am am will be praying for you and would give you a big hug if you were here .. you need it really bad, my friend!

ram... reading is fundamental. Not everyone understands what they read/see. The sad thing is while the display might have offended some, including children, the larger message that has been sent by those that vandalized it is one of INTOLERANCE. Now my question to our fair readers is which message is worse to send to your children?

The message of Christmas is "hope". I cannot see how a skeleton symbolizes that in any fashion. If these people want to exercise "freedom of speech", why don't they display the thing in their own yard? That way all arguements are put to rest and they can maintain the freedom they declare they deserve.

I think it's a lot of bull, Why do atheist always bring up this topic? I don't give a damn what atheist put up, I don't have to look at it. They should just "Live and let live"

ram, Why are you showing a picture of this to your 7 year old daughter knowingly if you think it would offend or upset her?

Really people... if you do not want your kids to see this, don't take them there, or show them pictures. Similarly, if you don't want them to see any of the scary world out there, shelter your children. I for one am preparing my kids for the real world. They need to be equipped to be able to survive. The world is full of differing views, and the weak person is the one who wants free speech, but only for people who believe like THEY do.

alma jean, I agree with you entirely, as would most atheists. Atheists don't want to have these types of displays at government owned buildings. There is supposed to be a separation of church and state in this country, and that has been eroded. If NO religious demonstrations were allowed, then we would have to go to our respective places of worship to view them. Problem solved. Since people want to be able to put up displays like this, then ALL people are welcome to. I'd be interested to see who decapitated the display. My bet is intolerant Christians. Not trying to offend anyone, but there is more intolerance from Christians than anyone I've ever seen.

Skup - So why is it so infuriating to see a crucified African American on the cross but there is a worldwide celebration of a crucified Caucasian? Doesn't crucifiction symbolize death in any race, regardless of clothing?

Carol - Why is it acceptable to display any "freedom of speech" on the courthouse lawn? Because their version agrees with yours?

First of all, it doesn't HAVE to have a point. It was approved for public display, and that's the only bit that's even remotely relevant.

Further, IF it sparks debate, you should see that as a positive thing. A lack of debate has never (and will never) be a positive thing. If it bothers you, ignore it. If you don't want your children seeing it, don't let them. If they somehow see it anyway, it's YOUR job to help them contextualize it. I realize this is difficult for some of you. Your parents clearly never gave you the skills to cope with the real world.

Absolutely on target Critical ... thank you.

Ive actually seen enough on this subject to clearly say... STOP WHINING ABOUT YOUR KIDS. My 4 yo daughter saw this picture while i was reading this story and i told her that someone must have been placed on the naughty list and was angry,and because of that display would be on it next year too.

dont any of you so called parents know how to talk to your children?

There are valid points both ways. Terelyn, I would never ask you to raise my children, but I would ask that you quit blasting us all for the way you see most kids. The fact is, there are both great kids and terrible kids, we just see more of the terrible kids because their behavior sticks out more and our society sensationalizes it. And Critical, why are you attacking? A discussion on points of view is a wonderful thing. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but attacking someone personally? Wow.

Oh, and Terelyn, I had 19 kids here last weekend, all 17 to 18 years old for a Christmas party. You know what they did; they decorated gingerbread houses together and and played spoons, then watched a disney movie! They had a blast! Don't put on kids in the same boat!

Aralee - I'm not attacking anyone. Read my entry carefully and hopefully you'll agree. The fact that you got so bothered concerns me, as it is part-in-parcel to the issue at hand. Who in particular did I disparage? As far as I can tell, I'm calling for discussion.

Perhaps you misunderstood when I said that some parents don't prepare their children for the real world. If this is what you consider to be inflammatory, then we probably have no common ground on which to debate our views.

All the best.

Critical, what I thought was inflammatory was the comment about parents not teaching their children the skills to deal with the real world. If that was not your intention, then I read it incorrectly, but I don't think so as I read if a few times to make sure. As a parent who has a lot of interaction with her children it kind of took me back.

All the best to you too.

Critical - What Aralee is trying to say is that some people think thay have an open mind when they really don't. And with further guidance still refuse to see other possibilities. Some peole are so ingrained in their mindsets that there are no other possibilities.

These are often the same people that insist on god being male despite no one ever having seen any supreme being. They refuse to accept that the deity received "male" status merely because women were illiterate and males dominated society at the time of written communications.

" It is also our RIGHT to be able to let our kids be kids, and not be tainted by someone elses views."

Not sure what country you're talking about, because it's certainly not the US...

I was thinking the same thing. I don't remember anything along those lines in the Constitution/Bill of Rights.

HMM Well,

First Amendment: addresses the rights of freedom of religion (prohibiting Congress from making a law "respecting an establishment" of religion and protecting the right to free exercise of religion), freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, and freedom of petition.

That pretty much covers the RELIGION aspect of it.

Then we take a look at

Freedom of thought (also called the freedom of conscience or ideas) is the freedom of an individual to hold or consider a fact, viewpoint, or thought, independent of others' viewpoints.

It is different from and not to be confused with the concept of freedom of speech or expression.

and also

The Four Freedoms were goals articulated by US President Franklin D. Roosevelt on January 6, 1941. In an address known as the Four Freedoms speech (technically the 1941 State of the Union address), he proposed four fundamental freedoms that people "everywhere in the world" ought to enjoy:

1. Freedom of speech and expression
2. Freedom of worship
3. Freedom from want
4. Freedom from fear

Which has pretty much made it quite clear that I have the right to raise my children according to my philosophies and views, and that no one else should infringe on them. I am not saying that you cant make a display publically, but it should be done with tact, and I shouldnt have to worry about someone else taking the spirit of christmas out of my kids. That is all. Freedom of speech or not, my kids innocence on the matter is what is at stake.

I agree wholeheartedly with you, wowed by the force. Actually I find the atheist's actions quite offensive. What is the point of the Santa on the Crucifix? Are they denouncing or making fun of Christ's crucifixion? Aren't these the same people who demand that no crosses be displayed because it offends them? Yet they are allowed to display this obscene crucifixion. Small children who believe in Santa will be upset to see him hanging from the cross and will want to know why someone did this. I am offended that they imitated the Crucifixion in this manner. Because Christians object we will be ignored - as usual.

Then Keep your kids away from the things you don't want them to see - shelter them as you see fit - not as others see fit!

Oh, for Joan-1991647, Santa has nothing to do with the "Christian's" meaning of Christmas!

Actually, as far as it goes, if you dont like our holiday, stay inside and dont celebrate it. IT is a christian holiday, not an atheist one. There is not a time when we stand outside and chide your children because you dont believe, do we? Then dont do it to our kids. THAT SIMPLE. You are impeding our childrens right to celebrate free from fear or persecution.

The spirit of Christmas is "hope". Given that Christmas was to celebrate the birth of Christ, the whole point is the hope of new life. I cannot see how a skeleton symbolizes that in any fashion. I agree with freedom of speech, so why didn't these people display this in their own yard? This would remove all arguements, and still allow them the freedom they declare they deserve.

Wowed... Your right to your views stops once you leave your house. If you want the freedom to put a display in front of a government building, then EVERYONE gets that same right, not just you, and not just what you like. The solstice was a pagan holiday LONG before Christians decided to overrun it as Jesus' birthday, which is truly unknown by the way, in an attempt to gain converts more easily. THAT SIMPLE. It's not YOUR holiday, and you are not tolerant like Christ says you should be.

I am actually highly tolerant. I dont mind the skeleton, I mind the decapitated one. I also dont believe that the government shouldnt put decorations up because they are "the middle man". They cant really have an opinion. BUT. For others to, IMO, tease and chide people publically because of their beliefs is wrong. I wont point out what I view as flawed logic if you dont do the same to me. That is what this is. A bunch of adults who have nothing better to do than act like two year olds, and all that it is doing is ruining the holiday cheer that so many would love to have right now. Its childish and rude, and nothing more. This wasnt made to "make a point", it was made to invoke fear and hatred. And if you dont believe that, you need to take your blinders off.

Agreed. Tis' the season for reason.

Kuddos to you Terri. I would do the same.

Your comment should definitely have some more up votes.

You're missing the point. The display was put up by both a Christian AND an Athiest in a joint effort to bring to light how we have over-commercialized the holiday season, not to throw stones at each other's religions. It's supposed to be a season of people coming together for each other, not corporate profits. I personally think we're over-commercialized in general, not just for the holidays. It's pretty bad that 1/3 (or more) of all programming (TV, radio, internet, etc.) is nothing but the same commercials repeating themselves non-stop.

@SinisterPhnx - Well said. I think most people here and in Leesburg have missed that fairly obvious point.

@Kirsten - Santa is not a Christian symbol. Totally secular.

Lucky - I find it hard to believe that anyone proclaiming to be Christian would seriously consider putting up such a Santa. I am not the final judge of such matters, but i find it personally offensive and in bad taste.

Okay, well by your very bold comment of "using christian symbols". Crucifixion predates the standard symbol of Christ on a cross. With your statement every kid at Halloween dressed as a white ghost is really part of the KKK. Whats disrespectful is that if it had been a manger scene that anyone did anything to, or a standard santa display everyone would be in an up roar. Christmas the holiday is older than "the birth of Christ" I get your outrage at what you...view as a moral cry against your beliefs, but keep in mind, the founding of the US was based on freedom. That many of them left England to live and worship however they saw fit. That still applies.

I am an atheist and I am offended. This is not some insightful piece of provocative art, it is a bunch of junk stapled together in an attempt to call attention to something most of us already knew. Sorry people, but the emperor is naked. It doesn't matter if this was a joint effort by a christian and an atheist- this is essentially an effort to mock and shame people for the way that they celebrate a holiday. I can't say I wouldn't have felt compelled to knock it down just on a sense of aesthetics.

@lucky St. Nicholas is a christian saint, hence the name.

Lord Vader will be proud. Yes, use your anger and hate...

Probably right. The way to beat them at this game is, not to look.

The sad thing is just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean it cannot be displayed.

Thanks for playing the Bill of Rights game.

Come again sometime.

I'm not normally one to be very artsy/creative, but I appreciate what the kid's display says to me. Whether that's the message intended, who knows, but everyone bitching who claims to believe in God should be backing this kid 1000%.

Huh?What? - Does that mean I can put a nativity scene out there too?

lol our local news refused to cover westboro protesting the officers funeral at Va Tech. go news Im a Christian and these people offend me to no end!

HA! Best damn thing I have read all day. Thanks F.X. Lozano!

Yeah I agree.

Now if it was set on fire or stoned to death ......................

Troll.

Good point. Some of the Halloween stuff creeps me out. I just don't look. And you make an excellent point that it isn't any worse at all than the Jesus and thorns on the crucifix. That is just awful.

I dunno. I was pretty traumatized by a drunk Santa when I was little. I remember crying to my mom afterward and telling her that Santa smelled really bad and was acting kind of funny.

Seeing a skeletized Santa hanging on a cross might have the same effect on a 3 or 4 year old, especially if that child hasn't been exposed to artwork of bloody, crucified Jesus.

@Roger: Um, not sure if you know the distinction, but there is a different between symbols of hate and a political statement. Spraying a swastika on a Jewish person's home is clearly a symbol of hate, a threat against their safety, as is burning a cross in a black person's yard. A crucified skeleton in a Santa suit doesn't even come close.

You are just being silly....lol. If you don't see the difference between the two things you need to read some history and step back a moment to reflect. Which part of this do you feel is Christian? The cross, the Santa, or the crucified headless Santa?

Santa represents the Christ Child, our gift from God. Santa is the spirit of giving at Christmas, as God gave us Jesus Christ. Yes, for some it is blown out of proportion. As for "it's open to anyone", no, it isn't. "It" is open to any persons celebrating the birth of Christ. Not some jackass needing drama. I respect anyone's belief who does or does not believe that there is God and anyone's belief that Jesus is not the Son of God, but they should not interrupt the celebration display of the believer. That's just nasty. It's how wars are started. there is no need for "others" to display their anti-decorations. Jesus invites everyone, so yes, it is for all...all who want to walk with him. If you choose not to, I don't believe it makes you or anyone a bad person because of it. What makes someone a bad person is the nasty action they choose to commit against others because of it. Like placing their own anti-Christian statement along side of it.

Fine ... so would you say that ALL Nativity scenes should be INDOORS as well? After all ... many Christian churches are nasty to others who believe differently from them - even among Christian denominations.

I am surprised that more people are not taking this as a threat against Christians. God knows you can't hang a noose anywhere without some black person being "threatened" by it. White Christians are the only ones for whom there is no legislated tolerance.

Guess you never visited many parts of the country if you think this is bad taste or even atheism really....lol. I could list so many things done in bad taste in other areas we would be here all night, but why bother? I'm sure Leesburg will be fine without you. I have a friend there who is a wonderful person and not atheist, either. Guess you just hate the whole town? Good thing you aren't spreading hate...lol.

And make sure all your kids find out all the places their friends might have lived once before you let them speak to them..lol.

Too bad you don't live in a country where people behave instead of acting like animals and ruining something just b/c they don't like it.