E-mail updates
Follow on Twitter
Subscribe to RSS
Jeremy Harrison / AP
Joint Base Lewis-McChord spokesman Lt. Col. Gary Dangerfield gives a brief statement about the crash of two Army OH-58 Kiowa helicopters Monday.
Updated at 4:15 a.m. ET
SEATTLE - Two Army helicopters crashed Monday night at Joint Base Lewis-McChord in an accident that killed four soldiers, a military spokesman said late Monday.
The two-seat OH-58D Kiowa Warrior observation helicopters crashed after 8 p.m. (11 p.m. ET) in the southwest training area of the sprawling base near Tacoma, Wash., according the Army.
KIRO TV reported that local fire crews reached the crash sites, but there were no survivors. The victims were not immediately identified, even by unit, pending notification of relatives.
It was not immediately clear whether the aircraft collided or crashed separately.
"We don't have details on what actually occurred," base spokesman J.C. Mathews said. "That will be part of the investigation."
He was unable to say whether the wreckage of the two helicopters was found in close proximity.
The crash site is geographically closest to the civilian community of Rainier, which is south of Tacoma, Mathews said. There were no injuries on the ground, KCPQ TV reported.
There are more than 40,000 military personnel stationed at Joint Base Lewis-McChord, and with dependent family members the population is 100,000, KCPQ TV said.
Base officials secured the crash site late Monday and immediately began an investigation. The Combat Readiness Center at Fort Rucker, Ala., will lead the overall investigation into the accident, base spokesman Joe Piek said.
"Our thoughts and prayers go out to the family, friends and loved ones of the soldiers involved in this tragic accident," said Maj. Gen. Lloyd Miles, acting senior Army commander at Lewis-McChord and deputy commanding general of I Corps.
"We will conduct a thorough investigation into this incident, and we will do everything in our power to support the families of the brave soldiers who died this evening," he said.
Temperatures at the base were around the mid-20 degrees Fahrenheit on Monday evening, and local media reported a likelihood of fog in the woods where the crash was said to have occurred.
The Kiowa Warrior is a single-engine, four-bladed aircraft used for armed reconnaissance, Mathews said. It's often called a scout helicopter.
Reuters and The Associated Press contributed to this report.
More content from msnbc.com and NBC News:
Leave a Comment:
Condolensces and prayers go to the victims' loved ones.
Have the helicopters had any mechanical problems? Was there any visibility problem at the time of crash?
Our military expanses are already six times more of the number second: China's expanses. How are the military expanses spent?
For instance, please do not tell us that our DOD was paying a dozen dollars for a couple dollars of a pack of anchors.
As it says at the end:
Since two crashed it sounds more like a collision.
Who gives a rats ass about how much China spends. BTW it's expenses. God bless these brave souls for the sacrifices they have made for our country and be with their families during this most difficult time.
Anchors? What are you talking about?
@ Billie
My third tour in Iraq we had two Kiowa's hit each other while securing a raid site. I don't think the helo's are mechanically unsound.
It's just that the maneuvers they do and situations they are in (night) push men and machine to the limits. Those are all operational norms. Every once and awhile, unfortunately, things get pushed over the edge.
God bless them and their family's.
Expanses? EXPENSES? Is that what you mean? Are you thinking that they put sub-par gear into those helicopters? You may want to do some more research there skippy before you start rambling about China and expenses. It is hard, too hard, to understand what you are getting at or trying to say.
How about this: thoughts and prayers go out to the families of those lost. It hits harder around this season and does not bode well with children to always have the memory of losing a loved one at Christmas. Prayers go out to the little ones especially!
I don't think people realize that our servicemen and women not only die in combat but in training as well. On the battlefield and off, they face danger & risk their lives daily for us. Their training operations are very dangerous. God, please protect our troops.
Coming from the Fort Rucker area, I know how awful one of these accidents can be. It has been quite a while since anything this serious has happened here, but during the height of Vietnam, with the flight school going full tilt, mid-airs were not that uncommon. Most, however, did not end in all being killed. This accident is especially sad because of the number of deaths. This was likely a mid-air since it would be rare for two identical choppers to go down in close proximity without one or the other invading the airspace.
Farmers die in accidents also. I don't think "God" gets involved. If he does, he's been against us since WWII.
Interesting comment on China's military spending. Considering their wages (I assume someone building their AK-47's are paid the same $1 an hour as someone building an I-Pod)., they are spending way more than it appears on paper.
More direct on the article: mid-air collisions are not that uncommon. Training implies they are learning, after all. Still, its a sad loss of life.
What an awful tragedy; The 4 Military people were not even away at War--
Young people who should of had many more years of life ahead.
Sympathies and deep condolences to all the families.
The Volunteer US Military Forces are the greatest---
sandtrich - Are you comparing the risks to our troops to the risks involved in other professions? Are you trying to belittle the sacrifices made by our servicemen and women?
Farmers do not train using live ammo, lobbing live RPGs, and traveling from ships to beaches in amphibious crafts that can sink (2Marines died at Pendleton in an amphibious landing training last summer). 29 Palms is such an expansive training site that they not only inventory weapons as they leave for the training fields but men as well because they have lost soldiers and Marines. Since 29 Palms is in the Mojave Desert they die of thirst. Don't think too many farmers are dying of thirst. And I think those same farmers are pretty darn proud of our troops. When was the last time you put your life on the line for someone who doesn't care about you? Unless you're a firefighter, EMS or cop you have no place to talk. PS - Just because you don't feel God's presence in your life doesn't mean He's not there. You have a right to your beliefs just as I have a right to mine.
I served in the Vietnam Era, as did my father as a WWII Submariner. My brother has a Purple Heart from Vietnam "in country" experience, (as well as shrapnel still buried in his body). My son is an active duty Navy officer with 14 years in. If you want to pimp imperialism, you have the wrong guy.
Don't bring a "god" into the conversation. As I read it, "The Prince of Peace", Jesus was a man of total peace, Not for a moment do I believe that he would be alright with our endeavors to invade other countries. The written accounts of Jesus shows that he was a Liberal and had a strong Socialist leaning. He did dislike banksters though. Do you think that Jesus would approve of the US spending as much as the next 14 countries combined on the military? Do you think Jesus would approve of the US being the chief manufacturers of WMD's? Do you think that Jesus would be toting a Glock with a back up Saturday night special in his sandal?
Nice post b-895713....I agree 100%..
dano
expanses, bla, bla, bla.you would bring money into it.......crackhead.
Condolences to the Families.
sandtrich typical TROLL, when you have nothing valid to add as usual you throw any type of sh!t on Newsvine to see if it sticks.
The Investigators from Fort Rucker will have do the Investigation. Looks like a Rotor Strike.
Mechanical:
I never trusted the OH-58 even without the "flying eye ball" (observation device on the top of the rotor mast). Even long ago we started to use the OH-6 and not the OH-58 that was being pushed on the rest of the US Military by Bell Helicopters (President Johnson's personal interests, "Lady Bird" Johnson's stocks in Bell Helicopters.).
For those that are not aviators, the OH-58 is an articulating rotor system, the OH-6 is not and can actually do a loop (go inverted) which the OH-58 cannot do (stress on the articulating rotor system and rotor mast). The OH-6 uses a "Rigid" rotor system that can survive higher stress. To this day we are using completely redesigned and rebuilt OH-6s as the MH-6 (refitted to Attack Mission as the AH-6).
Training and Experience:
During Training (non 160th SOAR) it is common during night time flight planning for Aviators to miss the high tension wires on maps when they are planning for NOE (Nap Of the Earth, low level flight). It is common also for those unfamiliar with Night Flight wearing NVGs (Night Vision Goggles) to bunch up while flying in formation leading to rotor strikes and crashes. This part has to do with the amount of actual Flight Experience.
From your previous posts you did not. If you did and are not some 15 year old, you would have known about President Johnson and "Lady Bird" Johnson's involvement with Bell Helicopters as that was splashed all over the Stars and Stripes Newspapers even at Vietnam as well as headlines Stateside during those days (Vietnam Era). You would have also known about those common tasks that were trained to the US Army, USAF, USMC and USN of the Vietnam Era, and you did not (sandtrich stop phishing for information so that you can be a poser, imposter.).
Because of this influence it was a decade before the US Military started to switch to "Rigid" Rotor Systems (aka Sikorsky System, Igor Sikorsky pioneer of US Rotary Wing Aviation) like on the Blackhawk, UH-60, our MH-60s.
You cannot compare the Chinese nor the Russian Federation to the US Military, as the Chinese and Russian Federation still take people out and execute them for Contract Defaults, Fraud, Crimes Against the People, etc. They get every Chinese Yuan or Russian Federation Ruble's worth. The US on the other hand must pay Out of Court Settlements to keep the Contractors that Default, etc. from filing Lawsuits that will tie up the Contract for years in Courts as Contract Disputes, then the US must contract someone else hoping that does not happen again (end up in Court). This is why when only One (must be Proven, not promised) Contractor can provide US product, goods or services, they become "Sole Source", "No Bid", especially if they are a Minority, Female, Owned Business. Also increasing the costs is the fact that the US Military is paying a "Fair And Living Wage" to US Civilians, this the reason for the $300 hammers and expensive USAF Toilet seats, as the US Military could buy if allowed better products from the Chinese and Russian Federation (hand made at US (acceptable fault tolerance 7mm from original design) versus CNC and Fully automated production at China and Russian Federation (acceptable fault tolerance of .05mm).
Weather:
Posted below. Post#58.1.
Do you suppose the next 14 countries combined budgeted 1.2 billion for environmental restoration, forked over 828 million to NATO for budgetsharing, 272.6 million for NATO security investment under military construction, 514 million for the CIA Retirement & Disab. Fund, 60 million for the Radiation Exposure Compensation Trust, 4.5 billion for FBI (Defense Related)? DOD has to pay for postal services out of its budget. How much do you suppose the Russians or Chinese spend on stamps, or family housing, or retirement? Get back to us when you find an apple to compare to that other apple.
@ Sandtrich
As I read it, "The Prince of Peace", Jesus was a man of total peace, Not for a moment do I believe that he would be alright with our endeavors to invade other countries.
If the Bible is taken in part (i.e. the new testament) and completely ignore the fact that Jesus and God are (according to Christianity) one and the same, then invasion wasn't an option.
However, Joshua's invasion into Jericho would show that God apparently does allow invasion and war when necessary.
Could be visibility issues if i had to guess right now. The weather tonight was calling for freezing fog in places and the area around the base is prone to horrible visibility in bad weather. I live just East of the base....
Horrible accident regardless, my condolences the the family members involved.
GCooper-4276999,
Weather (continued from post#57.15):
During previous training there (long long ago, before it was a joint base) with the guys that used to wear the black berets (now tan), we and the "blues" (ground reconnaissance, usually attached to the Aviation as legacy LRRP/Recondo/Ranger from what I was during Vietnam) would go out in that weather at Fort Lewis.
There are areas at the US that have the "High Speed Wind Vortexes" like here in the mountains of Afghanistan (2/3rds of Afghanistan), that have sucked USSR aircraft (fixed wing and rotary wing (Helicopters)) into the mountains during the USSR 40th Army Occupation, US aircraft previously and recently into the Afghan mountains (US Aircraft "Fixed wing" flew into a box canyon, daytime, attempted to turn around was sucked into the face of the mountain; one of my support MH-60s with one Team sucked into the side of a mountain while flying NOE, night time.). At the US this happened with experienced aviator Steve Faucett, high speed wind vortices coming off the desert pushed and sucked him into the Sierra Nevada Mountains.
Maintenance:
Now a days unlike before the majority of US Military Aviation Maintenance is accomplished by US Civilians of the US Contractors (cost and profits a factor), and not the US Military (costs and profits not a factor). Also the US Civilians will not be in the Aircraft, and the US Military will be, in the event of a Mechanical Failure. The US Military Aviators are responsible for Pre Flights; however, this is like "kicking the tires" compared to doing a detailed inspection (all the nuts and bolts torqued to specs and safety wired, wiring harnesses secured, avionics electronics black boxes ("fly by wire") installed and connected properly).
Shilling for the Mil
$1.2T to $1.4T will be spent on our military and they just got a 1% increase in the GOP budget. Total revenues are forecasted at $2.2T. The old saying, "War is good for the economy" only applies if you are a defense contractor. There's a lunacy that put an end to the Roman Empire and the USSR and it's happening right now in the US.
Cut the defense budget in half for starts. I'd rather see the money used to balance the budget and pay down the debt. Protecting one's borders doesn't stretch to Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Iran, etc. None of these countries attacked us on 9-11.
We have 1000's of returning Vets from the wars in the Middle East. Do you think the VA can handle the strain. No, yet they get no increase in their budget, while the Pentagon does.
Vote out all of the war mongers.
sandtrich = TROLL. some 15 year old living in his momma's basement.
Sure lets start by throwing the almost hundred million US Civilians employed by the US Military as the US Military Industrial Complex as created by President FDR to get the US of the 1929-1939 Great Depression in 1939 (not 1941 US Entry into WWII) after President FDR's New Deal To the American People failed (US Government spending money did not have, to create jobs).
Where do you think these US Civilians are getting money to keep your arse employed at McDonalds and for your momma and daddy to give you your allowance and pay for your obese arse living expenses. The money they earn working for the US Military Defense Industrial Complex is spent on Fast Food, Retail, Car Dealerships, Restaurants, Real Estate, Utilities (water, electricity), Rent, Local City State Federal Taxes (your Food Stamps (SNAP), WIC, Public Housing, etc.), Entertainment, Property Taxes (Schools, etc.), Health Insurance, etc. keeping all these US Civilians employed.
Proof once again that you are some 15 year old. And that you NEVER Served in the US Military, as most REAL Veterans would be at the VFW, talking with the later Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. VFW members asking why Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.. With you being a 15 year old not allowed in the local VFW.:
Nope. I say 15 year old because at that age you would not know of the events leading to US involvement with Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. as headlines and main articles on the US Newspapers. You did not even know the common things for those of us that did Serve during the Vietnam War (Era) regardless of Branch (US Army, USAF, USMC, USN (even the Coast Guard, Merchant Marine, etc.)) or Status (Active Duty, Reserve, National Guard). Most of the Veterans on Newsvine saw that too about you, sandtrich, being a poser, impostor.
I hope they werent Osprey.
They were single rotor Kiowas, Armed observation choppers.
I live about 20 miles from Rainier WA, it was very misty and Foggy this morning... Think London in the early spring.
Or Seattle between October and April. . .
Deleted by user
Osprey are not helicopters, they are vertical takeoff and landing aircraft with a greater payload then any helicopter at the present.
The OH-58 is a dependable bird, the military version of the Bell 206, which many police forces and TV news programs use as well. They've been around since 'Nam, but have been continually updated and improved. I flew them occassionally, though I primarily flew the UH-1H Iriquoise (Hueys - mil version of the Bell 204).
We regularly flew in an environment that pushes the envelope for both man and machine, and thanks to very good training and well-maintained machines there are not very many bad accidents - but they do happen. You operate close to the edge in training because it increases your survivability in a combat environment. My heart goes out to the families of these soldiers.
duane, a vet,
Compare a OH-58 (Bell 206) to a OH-6/MH-6/AH-6 (MD-500). During the Vietnam War, my father was a Fixed Wing/Rotary Wing Aviator (Instrument Rated, Instructor Pilot, Examiner). He flew UH-1s occasional OH-58s and OH-6s, and Otters U-1 (Fixed Wing). He later trained many US Aviators at Fort Walters, Texas; Fort Rucker, Alabama; and Hunter Army Airfield, Georgia (many later becoming 160th SOAR). The irony was later, it was the Aviators that he trained that were those that flew us in or pulled our arses out of the fire, as we were LRRPs/Rangers. While he was still in he also did the transition course from Hueys UH-1s to Blackhawks, UH-60s; he later qualified to fly CH-47s/MH-47s (Mid air refueling). He kept trying to get me to get my US Military Aviation Wings (He said I was barely acceptable after graduating from Air Assault School, I already had my Civilian Multi Engine (Fixed Wing)); eventually after completing most of the other things required within my US Military Officer Speciality (SSI), I did get my US Military Aviator Wings (Rotary Wing) and later my Fixed Wing (then U-21s). He flew to Fort Rucker and wore his dress uniform just to pin my Wings on (above my other wings)(some of my Instructors were shocked when they found out that I was his son, they considered him some sort of Legend, if they would have known before I would have caught hell during the Course (expected to know more, "Like Father like Son".).).
Anyway he warned me to stay away from OH-58s, as he did many crash investigations at Vietnam; and told me the results, and the differences (Survivability) between a OH-58 crashes and OH-6 crashes. OH-58 sudden impact "plows into the ground" (zero survivability), OH-6 rolls like an egg impact dispersed.
Eventhough, I do not maintain my Flight Status and Instrument Rating (required minimum hours, plus check rides), I do every so often fly our supporting MH-60s, MH-6s (rare occasions MH-47s) to and from my meetings (Commander's Briefing) at Kabul. During my US Military Career I have been on hundreds of Air Missions (All Branches), and walked away from three crashes (I was not piloting, nor co piloting). Based on the above you can guess my involvement with the Special Reconnaissance turned into a Direct Action (Raid) on Osama Bin Laden.
duane, a vet,
I am leaving out many details so that posers (impostors) like sandtrich will f**k up and expose themselves.
Jake-3782984,
Eventhough, my father (US Military Aviator Rotary and Fixed Wing) liked the idea of the VF-22's (CV, MV, etc.), Osprey; I have seen them here at Afghanistan. I did get to ride in them three times (two times too many, unnecessary risk).
I refuse to even consider riding in them or using them in any of our operations. During their landings and take offs (Rotary Wing) they kick up a sh!t storm, take a rough guess where a lot of that goes, right into the jet turbines. During our standby for redeployment from here (Afghanistan) to Libya to be attached to SAD to provide Security and Targetting and Target Damage Assessments we would have to use VF-22s (I was so glad other Teams went and none of mine.)(I changed the plans to C-130s, with us combat jumping).
On the majority of the Helicopters attached to the fronts of the turbine intakes are centrifical separators to keep dust, dirt, sand, rocks, etc. out of the turbines; the VF-22s were not originally designed to have this. To put one on a VF-22 would require a driveshaft going to the intake under the propellors (rotors) or some sort of electrical centrifical separator, with both decreasing the operational capabilities of the VF-22 unless you completely change the turbines (higher power, like what was done to most helicopters to accomodate the centrifical separators for desert warfare.).
MH-60 Just inside of the intakes are the centrical separators
http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Fea1/601-700/Fea639_MH-60_Silva/01.jpg
http://www.snariad.ru/wp-content/gallery/mh-60g/mh60g_03.jpg
http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/AWA1/101-200/walk158_MH-60G/part2/Images_Matthias_Rabiller/UH-60-Blackhawk_03.jpg
MH-47 at front of the engine intakes are the centrifical separators.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/images/mh-47_070919-f-xa506-260_0xnsu.jpg">http://www.globalsecurity.org/jhtml/jframe.html#http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/images/mh-47_070919-f-xa506-260_0xnsu.jpg
On helicopters as long as you have your rotors you can autorotate (minimum landing space), even with the rotors (propellors) on the VF-22 being intact you cannot (must crash land like a fixed winged aircraft, large flat open area). The VF-22 also has an unforgiving (fatal) VRS (Vortex Ring State) the VF-22 propellors (rotors) themselves creating a vortex that causes a usually fatal crash; this does happen on some Helicopters (multi rotor, like CH-46s, CH-47s, our MH-47s) but you can make changes to get out of the VRS.
To date, most US Military Commanders refuse to even consider the use of the VF-22s during actual Assaults (of unsecure areas, like CH-47s (MH-47s), UH-60s (MH-60s) are used and planned for.). The USMC did an Assault of a Secure Area, to prove to other Nations that were interested in buying the VF-22 under US Military FMS (Foreign Military Sales ). Foreign Military Sales (FMS) that makes significant Money for the US Civilians, decreases US Trade Deficit, US Economy, is why the US Military quite a few times ends up with junk (US Military must have, or other Nations will not purchase). Back in my day, the "Deal of the Century", the F-16, as the USAF wanted a multi engine, not a single engine (based on the USAF experience with the F series engines, flame outs, compressor stall, etc. of that manufacturer, so the USAF demanded and US Congress refused to appropriate the funds for another brand of engine and even aircraft that the USAF wanted), so based on the "Deal of the Century" sale of F-16s to other Nations worldwide thru FMS, the USAF was required to purchase F-16s, as many Nations started asking if this F-16 was so good (as advertised) why didn't the USAF have the F-16. To this day, FMS is making money (hundreds of) Billions to Trillions and keeping US Manufacturing, US Industry, etc. in business and employing millions of US Civilians as one of the last "US Only" by US Law (US Code) Businesses.
The VF-22 was one of those pushed on the US Military by US Congress since 1989, to keep US Civilian Jobs in their States. Just like US Congress tried to force the USAF to buy more F-22s to save 95,000 US Civilian Jobs.
A terrible loss, at any time. Especially awful for the families at Christmas...Christmases are never the same once a loved one has died, but now their Christmases will always be associated with the death of their loved ones...my heart goes out to all of the families and friends...
Yup! Just like when 3 adults and 3 kids died when their plane crashed into the Superstition Mountains in Arizona 1 day before Thanksgiving (11/23/11)! I live not too far from the mtns.,
We must remember even those that do not die in combat are heros also. Unfortunately these instances happen on our own soil a few times a year.
God be with the families and friends of those who died.
A tragedy no matter how it happened, where it happened or the reason it happened. Very, very sad.
Unfortunately, training for combat involves many actual combat risks. A sad loss for families, friends and country.
Who's doing the training,Muslim extremists?Our military excepts all kinds of trash these days!
I think the word you were looking for is "accepts" not "excepts".. Were you in the military on education waiver? word.
2sunset, please crawl back under the rock you came out of to spew your hatred.
2sunset you're a perfect example of why it's far better to just remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
2Sunset: just to let you know that I accidentally checked the box when I was trying to report you for not adding any value to this thread. Find a dark place (other than your soul) and go there if you have anything negative to say during this time when appreciation for their service and condolences towards their family should exist.
2sunset--Ignorant comment by you. Prayers to the families.
Hey 2sunset, you piece of human sh&t, and that's a compliment. Have you ever served you god&*mn horses ass? Please crawl back where ever the f^ck you came from . The best part of you ran down your moms leg, you father (if you know who he is) should have worn a condom
My heart goes out to the G'I's and families. For peace we train, for freedom we fight
2sunset
WRONG!
There have been times when the military would accept someone if there was a blemish on their record. Not today. Today the military can pick and choose and they choose the best.
When you hear about a guy getting out after many years of service often (not always) it is because they let him go. The military wants and expects the best.
REALLY? Our military, no matter what branch, is the best of the best, you ungrateful little man...try and show a little respect...
They come from all walks of life, as I am sure there are some who are Muslim...as well as Jewish, Catholic, Protestant, Baptist...etc...
Your hate is what is wrong with this world...
2sunset = sandtrich = TROLLS.
Condolences to the Families of "Above the Best" (US Army Aviation).
Although a misspelled word,the message remains the same!
If you call our military trash, then we have every right to call you an uneducated fool.
You didn't misspell "accepts", you used the word "excepts". The other, when used as a verb, has the opposite meaning.
Who cares what this moron has to say. Anybody that calls our young men and women entering the military, "trash", deserves an ass whippin and nothing less. He sure doesn't deserve anybodys acknowledgement. Maybe the Occukook kids should do what these kids are doing instead of being the trash they are.
2Sunset--The only message I get is that you are ignorant. Without our military you wouldn't be able to speak your ignorant, assinine remarks. Since you have nothing intellegent to add to this post, please JUST GO AWAY. God Bless these brave soldiers and their families! Thank you for your sacrifices!
2Sunset, you are oviously trolling and should be banned forever on this site. You add absolutely no value at all and are only making comments that you know will upset others. For that you should probably find another hobby and get out of your mother's basement for once and get some fresh air. I am sure the air is stuffy with all of your ignorance and arrogance wafting throughout the already smell basement. Grow up and stop trolling
Who needs the enemy?
Truth will never be known on this side of the river!
Thanks for the service fella's. R.I.P. Now 2sunset, what's wrong with you?
May I ask you the same question,dude?
2sunset, go back to bed and get up again later. Maybe that will clear your head somewhat.
War-FF,I never called our military trash.I said our military is now allowing trash to enter its ranks.Please try to read with understanding!
@2sunset
That statement is ignorant. Show the men and women who fight for this country a little more respect. If not for them, you wouldn't be able to sit & troll this board all morning. My deepest condolences go out to the families of the decest. RIP.
2sunset you are extremely ill informed. The military has actually increased their standards. They don't let just anybody in anymore. They don't have to.
2sunset may not word everything he says real well and I'm not quite sure what his comments have to do with this particular incident, but he's not totally off-base. There is a LOT of trash getting into the military despite the "increased standards." Hence the story this week on Military.com regarding gang members infiltrating the military and stealing military weapons to pass along to their gang-banger buddies on the streets of YOUR neighborhood.
Love,
A Veteran (Disabled)
Sorry - it wasn't published this week. It was in October. Here's the link:
http://www.military.com/news/article/2011/fbi-says-gangs-infiltrating-the-us-military.html
There has always been a "lot of trash" accepted into the military, can you say "the draft".
It is the training that weeds out most of the trash, not all of it, just most of it.
Yes, the testing standards are higher than before, but testing never was meant to be a 100% solution, it is why training is so important!
The military will always reflect our society because we recruit out of it, some will be gang members, it is part of our society now.
2sunset, you quoted "I said our military is now allowing trash to enter its ranks."
DOES THAT MEAN that YOU were IN the MILITARY? OR are STILL IN?
GOD HELP US!!
R.I.P to the VICTIMS
2Sunset is obviously trolling. Try not to waste too much energy on someone that the military obviously rejected. Obviously by the way 2sunset spells and attempts to put sentences together, he probably has a hard time remembering to breathe: my guess is he has "inhale- tattooed on the left hand and "exhale on the right" that way when he is about to pass out because he does not remember what to do, he can look at both hands and figure it out.
Too bad that we don't have a DRAFT now. I know many whippersnappers that I would like inducted and MADE into Men (or Women). 2Sunset is one.
DO NOT DUMP 2sunset ON US.
2sunset,
It has been an initiative for years for all new volunteers to be checked for Gang Related "Tats" (Tattoos). After that it became Policy, US Military wide, for all US Service Members to be checked for Gang Related "Tats", those that had them were offered (after another Background Check (more extensive), into their relations to Gangs) to leave the US Military (Honorable Discharge), if they were no longer nor ever would be affiliated with a Gang (got into US Military to escape the Gangs) they were allowed to remain (with numerous strict written conditions, in our field that would include removal of the "Tats".).
Why don't you go take a practice Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery (ASVAB) and the Armed Forces Physical Fitness Test (AFPFT) to see if you even make it out of the Recruiter's Office.
Trash? Seriously? I tried to read with that with understanding, but have a very difficult time with anyone describing anyone else as "trash". That having been said, the military has turned many an underpriveleged, down-on-their-luck individual into the best version of themselves that they could ever hope to be, all while displaying a level of courage and sacrifice that few will ever dream of let alone live out.
When did this so-called "Christian Nation" begin ignoring the mantra of "ONE NATION UNDER GOD" that they fight so hard to keep on currency, public buildings, etc?
Trash TALK is what needs to be cleaned up... might I suggest people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
2sunset = sandtrich = TROLLS.
Condolences to the Families of "Above the Best" (US Army Aviation).
My son is stationed at Fort Lewis-McChord, I pray that he's safe and sound.
My daughter is there as well. I talked to her last night so I know she's safe. I pray your son is as well.
Maj, Kimmers, Decent people's hearts are with you. Been through the waits for info on military accidents, it is a hard situation.
one of my brothers are there also, waiting sucks. My thoughts and prayers are with all of the families.
Maj-1384569 My prayers are with you. My brother is retired but still works for the base. His wife and kids live close by. I know when he was actively serving on C-130's it was always hold your breath moments when accidents like this occurred. I'm sure you would have been notified by now, but my prayers are for you to stay calm and to give help to the families of this tragedy.
Ft. Lewis-McChord is an amazing base. Extremely beautiful.
Sending good thoughts to all those who are there...have faith, everyone...
As long as you are not face down laying on the ant trails, or got the big arse mosquitoes biting the top of your head inside your helmet as well as biting thru the uniforms. The regular Off insect repellent was like the dinner bell, the Deep Woods Off worked (as long as you left nothing uncovered). Training with the 2nd Bat.. Almost forgot forging across the streams during the winter (testicles trying to crawl up into body to stay warm) and the rain.
Other than those beautiful like the Forests at Europe.
2sunset, I'm trying to understand your original comment: pilots of downed aircraft are somehow "trash" because the Army has lowered its standards? I don't recall reading anywhere in the article that the accident was definitely due to pilot error or negligence. I agree that the relaxed standards have filled the ranks with people who might not have any business being there, but that has nothing to do with this accident.
For what it's worth, I'm married to a Kiowa pilot - one who has worked VERY hard to get where he is, and studies his butt off to stay in the cockpit.
If Sunset was in the military I am presuming it was long ago. If he still has a military ID card and goes to an exchange or commissary he might perceive the fellow shoppers as being different than in previous times. I too see a different face on the military; clothing styles become more lax, more tattoos, different cultures, languages...not what he's used to. But times change and regardless of appearance, the men and women ARE our United States troops and I am extremely proud of each and every one.
Thank you Kate. I was a 58d pilot for part of my 21 years and you are exactly right. The Kiowa Warrior folks are some of the brightest and most courageous people in the Army. I wasn't very good at being a scout, but the guys I flew with were the best of the best. They were who you would want to be with if you were going into combat.
Again, 2sunset wasn't calling the troops trash. He asked what sort of people were training our troops. Probably not the best question to raise today but also not the same as calling our troops trash.
I guess he was calling SOME of the troops trash, Right?
Possibly. Either that, or he was taking a shot at military contractors. . .
My condolences to the families of these pilots, it's brave duty regardless of where you are stationed. To 2sunset, some advise, engage brain before you engage mouth. If anything, the military has raised its standards on physical fitness and intelligence without regard to morality or religion (subjective) which is what I believe you were alluding to. In any event your comment was way beyond the pale of common decency in this situation and at the very least way off the mark.
Those aircraft no doubt had CAS (collision avoidance systems), but if they were flying a mission in planned close proximity, the CAS wouldn't have helped them if somebody made a quick move.
These aircraft are not equipped with CAS. They were flying in the dark, under NVG's, in less then stellar weather. They fly in close formation and very low to the ground so there is very little time to react to emergency situations. That is why they fly and train so much. Accidents happen. It is unfortunate. Even with all the risk assessments and flight planning bad things still sometimes happen. My thoughts and prayers to their families.
2sunset, you need to get your sign and get back out to the port. We can only pepper spray you with words here..
money: That was funny!
Hard to understand 2sunset, when you speak in riddles. What you said was, "Who's doing the training Muslim extremists" key word here being training. Wouldn't that come from the military? I was never in the military nor do I claim to have an education in it. I am however very patriotic having had a father and a brother in the armed forces. I also like to think I have a bit of common sense.
Don't waste your time Pixie, the guy is a moron. They were no doubt well trained and were most likely out training when the accident occured. I was one of these guys years ago, and they are the best of the best and well trained. However, no matter how hard they try to prevent them, accidents happen. The job comes with dangers that all pilots are aware of. You do it because you love it! I'm sure they died with smiles on their faces. May God Bless them and their families.
Thank you Richard. yes, obviously a moron. immarturity certainly does speak for itself. My heartfelt sympathies go out to their families. And I will continue to include every one of our servicemen and women in my prayers, and thank God for them before I close my eyes every night.
The only "trash" I see here on the vine is 2sunset.
Why do these conversations always degenerate into arguments, accusations, political nonsense, etc?
We bitch about the politicians available to us for election, but behind closed doors we behave the same exact way. We deserve what we get.
Mainly because nobody actually READS any more and prefers to skim over things and jump to conclusions.
While 2sunset's comment was not overly sensitive, not well worded, and not well timed, all he asked was who is training our troops. He did cast aspersions on military trainers - many of whom are civilian contractors (but even then virtually all vets) - but not directly on the troops themselves. Seems kind of a leap to assume that the pilots here were badly trained or that their trainers were somehow at fault, but it's not the outrageous proposition many commenters on here seem to think it is.
Everybody needs to calm down and take a pill this morning apparently.
I am sorry for the loss the families have suffered, and for all their military friends that lost the friends they had in the 4 dead. This has to be a sad moment for them all, and I wish all effected by this loss my deepest condolences.
God bless the four soldiers that died. God is with you know and I will be praying for u four.
I wonder if the men jumped? Sometimes pilots panic. My dad's helicopter was hit in Nam. The pilot jumped and died, but my dad rode it down and survived the crash. It makes sense to have something take the brunt of the impact before you do.