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Subscribe to RSSEDINBURG, Texas -- Three deer hunters suspected of possibly firing the shots that wounded two South Texas middle school students were taken in for questioning, but investigators hadn't determined early Tuesday whether the shootings were accidental, reckless or intentional, a sheriff said.
Hidalgo County Sheriff Lupe Trevino told The Associated Press that authorities have theorized that the students were hit by "errant or stray bullets" fired from hunting pastures near the middle school, which was hosting outdoor tryouts for the basketball team.
Three hunters were taken in for questioning Monday night but were not immediately arrested, he said. Authorities planned to search Tuesday morning for rifle casings to see if they match the barrel markings on the guns the hunters questioned had in their possession, he said.
"It's undetermined if it was intentional, someone was reckless, or a plain old accident," Trevino said. "We just don't know yet. We're going to continue to see what the three people have got to say for themselves, see if we can piece that together."
Two students, ages 13 and 14, were wounded in the Monday afternoon shootings outside Harwell Middle School near Edinburg.
One was in critical condition Monday night with a gunshot wound in in the back and a bullet embedded in an organ, while the other was in stable condition with a gunshot wound to the armpit, Trevino said.
Even if accidental, investigators will want to know how close the shooters were to the school when they opened fire. Trevino said two hunting pastures are within 600 yards of the school.
Classes were to go on as scheduled Tuesday, but with increased security and counselors available to speak with students, said Edinburg school district spokesman Gilbert Tagle.
At the time of the shooting, one of the boys was going for a layup. The other was waiting his turn to try out, Trevino said.
A number of after-school activities besides the basketball tryouts were going on at the school, including a concert and a faculty meeting, Tagle said. He estimated as many as 200 children could have been on campus.
Classes were not in session when the shooting happened, but the school complex was immediately placed on lockdown.
Harwell Middle School opened just this year on the rural property northeast of Edinburg, which is about 50 miles northwest of Brownsville. Homes line the road approaching the school, but open fields stretch out behind it and to the north.
Gangs have been a problem at the school, said Harrell eighth-grader Samuel Cepeda, 15, and he has worried about security. However, Trevino said investigators do not believe the shooting was gang-related.
The outdoor court where the shooting took place was north of the school complex at an athletic facility that includes a football field, track and tennis courts, said fellow eighth-grader Oziel Garcia, 14.
Eighth-grader Annette Vargas Ugalde, 15, said she was about to board her bus near the gym after school when school officials started rushing students indoors.
"They told us to, 'Get inside, get inside,'" she said.
She said she heard no shots but saw a group of people on the outdoor court standing near one boy on the ground. A school nurse tended to him while another boy was sitting up.
Annett said she boarded her bus, and it left.
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Apparently, Texas is just so small and crowded, there's no way to keep hunters a safe distance away from schools.
Common sense would close down the two hunting pastures, you'd think?
common sense would close down the school you'd think
if they had any common sense , they wouldn't have built a school in a hunting area !!!! but seriously , I hope the kids recover fully , and this is a wake up call to all gun owners about how far a bullet can travel , and still be potentially lethal .
a .22 rifle can be deadly at more than double the 600 yard distance. This is crazy that you could be allowed to hunt that close to a school. Hunting with a shotgun is much safer as you have to be fairly close to your target. Even bow hunting is becoming more dangerous like rifles as technology allows for much higher forces nowadays.
Common sense would say not to build a school within 600 yards of two hunting pastures.
No Earlyout-we just have way too many damned hunters!
Common sense would say that the school shouldnt have been built where it was. The school just opened...really?! I suppose they didnt think that it might be a little dangerous to build a school so close to hunting pastures.
Unless this was Deliberate then it was an Accident caused by Negligence and they need to be charged accordingly.
I am a hunter and you must know where your bullet is going.
Its Texas.
How bout all u damn yankees stay up north and quit comin down south cuz every time yall do somebody gets shot or lost in the woods there should be an iq test required before purchasing a gun up north
Personal experience makes me lean towards carelessness on the part of the hunters. Growing up in a rural area we had hunters a lot less then 600 ft from the house. I've hat a hunter take a potshot at a rabbit on the front lawn and one of my friends had their cat shot and left in their driveway. Maybe not all hunters are this stupid but I've had experiences that make me feel this way.
Damn Rednecks.
Common sense would say that most people know that other people don't always use common sense. I don't live in Texas but I do have a bullet hole in my bedroom wall over my bed, dings left in the siding by buckshot and a ding in one door of my car left by a 22 caliber bullet. I live in the middle of a residential neighborhood. You would think that all the houses, vehicles, fences and No Trespassing signs would be a real give away that people should not hunt here. I personally have nothing against hunting as long as the hunter is an intelligent, responsible adult. It's way too easy to get a hunting license without proof of any knowledge of safe hunting practices. The hunters just show up at the right office, sign on the dotted line, pay their fee and they instantly get a hunting license. At least with a driver's license you have to take a driving test. I think their should be a firearm safety test.
Unbelievable. I don't think we are getting the whole story.
The idiots should have never been shooting towards the school anyway. I hunt behind my house and I am aware of what direction and other houses are and how far and what is in between. ( as in trees hills etc. ) It is called common sense. If i hunt close to the house I use my shot gun.
Well, the school is already built, and current economic conditions would probably prohibit shutting it down. Much simpler to shut down the hunting area and choose another location farther from populated property. This is Texas, after all. Surely they have more hunting pastures that are out of range of the school and subdivisions!?
"Hunting is not a sport. In a sport both sides know they are in the game."
LOL! EXACTLY what I was thinking. Although in the end (smart or not as far as placement of the school) it doesn't matter. A hunter is responsible for any damage they did. The hunter isn't too bright to hunt near a school (allowed or not. He still needs to use his God given intelligence). If you "accidently" shoot someone it isn't an oopsie. YOU were negligent and you must pay. You didn't hit the right target. That means this moron will be financially responsible (hope for the kids sake he owns a home & has good insurance) and he should do time for manslaughter if the kid dies. He was definately negligent. Hunting isn't a bright sport to be involved in. I understand people "like" it but the cost of "accidently" killing someone is just too high. Unless you are hunting for food and it is the difference between starving or not there isn't an intelligent reason to hunt. Target shoot at the range to your heart's content. We have signs where I live on a walking/biking path which states you have to wear blaze orange during hunting season. I just don't get it. Why let anyone hunt in an area where people exist on a regular basis???? How bout you just let people hunt on special hunting grounds where no one lives? Is that too friggin hard? I would never want to be responsible for accidently hurting or killing someone, its just not worth it. You pick your battles in life and hunting (unless your starving) is a stupid battle.
Just about all, if not all states require a hunting safety course before you can get a license if you were born after a certain date. I am not sure what that date is because it doesn't pertain to my age group.
1. Treat every firearm as if it were loaded.
2. Keep your muzzle pointed in a safe direction. (Sounds like the fellow(s) who shot didn't follow this rule.)
3. Be sure of your target and what is beyond. (Sounds like the fellow(s) who shot didn't follow this rule either.)
A .22 cal Long Rifle cartridge can be dangerous (deadly) up to 1-1/2 mile when fired.
A High powered rifle like a 308 Win or 30-06 can be dangerous (deadly) up to 4 miles.
A shotgun can be dangerous up to 100 yards depending on the shot size. Shotgun Slugs are sighted in at 100 yds.
Accidents can happen, but most likely if the people hunting didn't follow all three basic hunting rules, bullets do go where the muzzle is pointed. I would say if somebody in the group fired the shots they are in hot water and will be punished.
Actually, "Northerners" know how to shoot quite well. I don't recall history books saying the South lost because of all the good aiming of it's cowards. Second, most Northerner's I know haven't started the last moments of their life with the words, "Hey Ya'll, watch this..." I rest my case.
A lot of talk about common sense here, but just how old were these three hunters and where was their common sense. Did they even make it out of middle school. Just because a pasture designated for hunting is there, doesn't mean you take firing a lethal weapon for granted in hopes of shooting an animal for sport. They obviously knew the school was there, and if they had any common sense or any judgement what-so-ever, they would have realized how close to a populated area they were shooting weapons. All three of these guys should face felony charges.
All three should not be held accountable unless all three shot their rifles. There is suppose to be individual responsiblity in this country.
You can't keep someone other than yourself from getting excited and shooting in the direction of a school.
If you wanna play for Texas, you need to be able to make your free throws and layups under alot of pressure. WE DON'T FLINCH! Gunfire and other distractions should be ignored. Now ladies, if you happen to take a bullet, finish the task at hand, and then cry if you need to. Momma's boys!
If BILLY ROWE, RICK PERRY and GEORGE BUSH II are typical of people of Texas, it would clearly explain how such a stupid "accident" might happen. Imagine being so damn buzzed on the thrill of killing an animal that a hunter did not even notice innocent children standing in their range of fire!!!!
Billy. The injured children where NOT FROM THE NORTH! Were the hunters? I didn't see that in the article. Does anything tie in with your comment blaming Northerners for this incident?
I can't believe that anywhere in any state would permit hunting in such a close proximity to a school! What complete and utter carelessness and lack of IQ. Seems to be an epidemic in Texas, eh Billy? The IQ thing.
The fact that a child lies in the hospital in critical with a bullet lodged in one of his organs is terrible. I'm praying for his full recovery and hope everyone else out there will too.
Them hunters must have taken the same shooting safety course Dick Cheney did!
Squirrel !!!
Common sense when firing is to know exactly where the bullet will stop. No excuse for the hunters, and I'm NRA Life Member.
I can only drive 20 mph around a school, during school hours. Perhaps, the hunting area should be shut down during school hours. At a minimum.
Max unless your shooting at a target in a enclosed place or pinned to a solid object (tree, stump, etc) how in the hell can you 100% accurately say where your bullet will go?
You can easily hear the shot @ 600 yards. You can hear the shot at over a mile.
If it turns out that the shooter was a mile away, and the school is less than a year old - you have to factor that in.
It may well be that they hunted there decades longer than the school was there.
That doesn't change the fact that your bullet should never go beyond your property line.
That's just one reason why people use raised hunting blinds or tree stands. It naturally makes your shots headed toward the ground.
I highly doubt a ricochet. Both bullets ended up in a small area. Ricocheted bullets go off in different directions. Also, ricochet bullets lose power and range.
I cannot understand why they would hold all three in jail. At most, 2 people shot.
I agree with others who said it was negligent. I would call it reckless endangerment. Based on the outcome, I would personally put the punishment at 30 days.
I would also revoke hunting permits for 5 years.
Damu, you have to know the terrain where you are hunting and the characteristics of your firearm. A .308 full metal jacket slug will go through 20 inch pine tree at 100 yards and still have enough energy to kill the person on the other side. If the terrain is level, a horizontal shot from a typical .308 rifle fired in a standing position will need more than 1000 yards of open space before hitting the ground. Firing a weapon carries a tremendous responsibility.
Of course, in Texas it's a misdemeanor to operate a motor vehicle without a loaded firearm and an open container of alcohol.
@trust: Actually, The South outperformed the north hands down in the War of Northern Aggression. It wasn't marksmanship or a lack of it that resulted in unfortunate and temporary advantage held by the north when active hostilities abated.
As far as all the morons who do stupid things, start by looking up Bam Margera. He's from PA. (So are a lot of people in the news this week. . . ) Jackass.
Before I start my post... I hope these kids are OK and the hunters get investigated to ensure they were acting within the law.
"Dang gubmint getting in our way with building schuls so close to hunting grounds. Schuls ain't as 'portant as huntin'. Chitlings don't not need schuling or edumacation. Schuls = BAD Huntin=GOOD.
America & Texas don't not be needing to be messed wit by dag gum schuls and gubmint regulations "
Quote from fictional Texas citizen. If we repeat it often enough (like the echo chamber comprised of Faux news, conservative pundits, drudge, Beck, Rush and Hannity) then it will be true. Their amazing ability to make BS stick and to convince myopic morons to believe opinion as FACT is unbelievably dangerous and will eventually lead the US to become a third world country.
AMF
I have to wonder if one of the hunters was named GW and the other was named Dick.
Law-Abiding gun owners have to field the critical fallout from idiots like these two guys.
If you pull the trigger, you are responsible. It is that simple.
It is not a "plain old accident." A plain old accident would be if the firearm accidently discharged.
Schools can be built anywhere. So what if people hunted there previously? When an area is not safe to hunt in, it is no longer a hunting ground. Unless the school's team is the fighting whitetails, then no excuse exists if these idiots aimed, pulled, and fired.
I repeat the point. Drive an extra 20 miles to hunt if the alternative is shooting school kids. These idiots are better at furthering gun control than Obama ever was.
Several comments restored. None of the comments extrapolation-trolling Texans restored. Not this either:
Billy Rowe, don't call everyone in the discussion names. It's bad for discussion.
Oh, so it's OK for the damn yankees to call names and make gross generalizations but how dare anyone call them on it. . .
I bet the new school color uniforms will be bright orange.
Reminds me of when I was a kid and we walked to the bus stop wearing fluorescent orange during hunting season so we wouldn't get shot at by hunters who thought everything moving could possibly be a deer.
Bus stop? Back when I was in school we belly crawled 9 miles uphill in our camos'! Bus stop. Nancy.
lol Texas is so backwards!
Around here we bring the kids inside on Gun Days.
Around here it's just illegal to hunt inside city limits.
Around here, we don't build schools next to hunting grounds.
The area is rural, not city. By Nebraska regulations you have to be 200 yards from buildings.
Because it would be soooo much more important to preserve a hunting ground than to provide one of those edumacation things. Seriously???
Edumacation eh lol
Nice straw man. DrDr. There are plenty of other ways this could have been prevented.
1) pick a place not actively used by hunters
2) or, if there were no other place, prevent by ordinance or existing law the discharge of firearms in such close proximity to the school
No one is trying to say hunting pastures are more important than education, rather that a great deal of idiocy on the part of community planners contributed to this situation.
Not all schools are in the city limits.
That part of Texas is literally controlled by the Democrats. Now you know why a school was built there.
Hey daryl I take offense to your post. My gun saved my life and the life of my child from a home invasion. I thank god everyday I had my gun in my nightstand and the man about to kill us left me on my bed next to it. I pray neither you nor anyone you know has to endure what we did. Believe me that was NOT imaginary!
Why have hunting grounds 600yrds away from a school? A bullet from a hunting rifle can easily travel 600 yards and still be lethal.
You may as well have said, "Why have cornfields near a school? Don't those idiot farmers know they're in the city? " Generally, 'hunting grounds' in rural areas are anywhere there is a farm.
Do you even know how far away 600 yards are?
Obviously those hunters did not follow gun safety rules, but 600 yards is a reasonably safe distance when you operate firearms responsibly.
Accidents do happen, hence the term, and I hope those kids get well soon. If it turns out that the shooting was intentional, well, say what you want about Texas, but they DO have the death penalty as a reward for such shenanigans.
Are you serious? I hope you are not a gun user. A .223 (probably the most common sporting round besides the .22) has an effective range of 300 yards. But bullets go over twice as far as their effective range and can still cause injury or even death. Anyone who points a rifle in a direction should know what the effective and dangerous range of their firearm is, which I doubt you do.
A 30.06 can easily be effective at 1,000 yards, which if the hunters were using could easily mean those kids would be dead or dying right now. This is a case of firearm negligence at best.
Are you serious? Have you even been in a rural area? Ever shot a firearm?
"You may as well have said, "Why have cornfields near a school? Don't those idiot farmers know they're in the city? ""
Last I heard, stray ears of corn never killed anyone. Stray bullets on the other hand.....
600 yards is NOT a safe distance. Heck, I've sighted in a couple of my rifles at 1/3 of that, at which distance the bullets haven't even really started to drop appreciably. Triptolemus, maybe gravity is heavier on the world where you live, or the atmosphere thicker, or something.
I'm not sure this is a case of firearm negligence though, as much as a case of negligence of the permitting crews, who allowed a school to be built so close to where firearms are being discharged, and then once the school was built, failed to fix this error and allowed hunting to continue in close proximity to the school.
Well there are many public places and i am sure schools in these small towns that are close to what you call " hunting grounds " . in small rural places I imagine that cant be helped but if you are hunting it is your responcibility to know what is around you . With that being said you never shoot toward a highway , houses , buildings and certainly not a school . The school being that close they had to know what direction the school was in . A friend of mine shot and killed his best friend a few years ago in a hunting accident . He knew he was just across the way from him but when he saw the deer he forgot all about his friend for that split second . Did he mean to do it ? No ! Was it still his fault and held responsible ? Yes !
No doubt, at the end of the day the rule is know what is behind your target, they did not have a good backstop and they took the shot anyway. 600 yards is not that far when you look at hunters using .308, 30.06, .300WSM etc.
All I am saying is people are stupid, so there is no way I would have a school six football fields away from people potentially firing high powered rifles in its direction.
The M16A2 military rifle fires the .223 Rem and the max effective range is more then 300 yards, try 300 yards times two. The M16A2 without a scope has a max effective range of 550 meters (601.49 yards) for a man sized target and 800 meters (874.89 yards) for an area target. The max range is 3534 meters (3864 yards) 2.2 miles
Tell us how you really feel Ken Wulf.
Am I the only one who caught these? "there's a lot of gang problems here..." But, we need to assume the hunters done it before we even haI do@!$%# itve the projectile in hand. Secondly. The school official "There were probably around 200 people on campus..." and the msnbc reporter gets the witness, a girl who seen people standing around got on the bus and left. I don't want to say that is the crapiest reporting I have ever seen, but, there was a blow job given at that job interview.
Triptolemus:
600 yards is not a safe distance. It is 6 football fields. My evidence is the 2 kids in the hospital because they were playing basketball. Bullets travel at high velocity. Unless a backdrop existed to catch the bullets, then it is on the shooter to determine whether sufficient visibility exists to take the shot. If they were in a stand and shooting to the ground, then 600 yards is sufficient. Shooting through low visibility backdrop is stupid. Let me say it again. It is indefensibly stupid. With a high-powered deer rifle it is profoundly stupid. Most importantly, it is criminally negligent.
Pure luck for two hunters prevented two deaths. Pure bad luck landed two kids in the hospital, one with a bullet in a vital organ.
Not one major Civil War battle was fought in Texas. In fact, it was one of few Confederate states in which no land was in Union hands at the end of the war. It's unrealistic to expect to be taken seriously calling others 'numbskulls' when your own statements are so clearly ignorant.
600 yards is a safe distance when you consider this Texas regulation:
What this means is you need to know the area your hunting and where the boundry is. Taking this regulation into consideration, 600 yards is plenty.
Actually, if the firearm was knowingly discharged, then it crossed a property line into the school, and 600 yards was not adequate in this case.
If the hunting ground was owned by the school, however unlikely, then the shooters would be violating federal law as well as state law by carrying firearms on school property.
The only way 600 yards was ok in this case is if the firearm accidentally discharged.
but 600 yards is a reasonably safe distance when you operate firearms responsibly
There. It seems many of you missed that part.
Operating firearms responsibly includes things like; Always know what is behind your target. Always have a clear shot to the target. Always know your target. Never shoot at something on a ridge line, and never shoot in the direction of a house or other people. Always consider the gun to be loaded. ESPECIALLY when it isn't.
Never point a gun at something you do not intend to destroy.
Again, obviously these people were not following gun safety rules. If there is a person behind your target, 3,000 yards is not far enough.
In addition, apologies Mike747, I can see that my post was a little too snarky and presumptive.
My point was that most agricultural lands become 'hunting grounds' when hunting season arrives, and as such there are a great many houses, schools, hospitals, etc. within 600 yards of farmland across the country, especially with the ever increasing rate of suburbanization. I realize that the author was trying to sensationalize the distance as if this type of thing never happens anywhere, and expecting the author to even be remotely acquainted with hunting is a long shot.
fired from hunting pastures near the middle school, Earth to the idiots who built a school so closes to a hunting pasture. How about putting up a 12 foot 6" think concretewall to protect the kids from any bullets that might go that way. The Moron who put this school here thinking it was a good location needs to be fired. Even if it turns out the hunters did this on purpose and fired shots towards the school. There is no reason why a Thick concrete wall is not separating the school boarder with the Hunting pasture.
Please don't tell me you are a shooter. You should know that anything downrange is a potential target, any safe hunter would not take a target with a residence, school, traffic etc..only 600 yards away. Irresponsible behavior from a hunter that may have never taken a safety course, I would highly recommend a NRA hunter safety course. Granted I shoot, but don't hunt, and I remember taking multiple gun safety courses in the Scouts and school when I was a kid. The moron is the person who sighted a target and pulled the trigger with a school downrange.
Several nights ago, after sitting in the deer blind for about 2 hours and seeing nothing, I started walking back to the truck. On the way back, I saw 2 doe and a monster buck about 300 yards out. They were standing on the opposite side of the pasture from me. My .270 will easily make that shot, but I had to let them go because there was a farm house behind the deer, probably another 600 yards out. It sucked that I had to watch them walk away, but had I missed the deer, or the bullet gone through, the buildings around the farm house would have been in the path of the bullet.
ALWAYS know what is behind your target! A high powered rifle round can travel several miles. These hunters should have known better. Hunters like these idiots give the rest of us a bad image.
Scobie: I own guns and have over 25 years of training with firearms, I was not there nor do I know the terrain at this spot. For all I know you might not be able to see the school from inside the hunting pastures even if its 600 yards away. Hell I been in places you could not see more than 5 feet in front of you do to the Trees and buses all over the place. What I'm saying if the hunting pastures is so closes to the school, why is there not a thick wall of concrete there too. I have never fire my weapons unless I could see the bullet would end up in a safe spot. Yet I know there are stupid gun owners all over the place and read about them daily. SO Again why did the school board NOT put up a wall to protect the school from a potential dangerous situation. They do it for everything else, so why not this. Its called planing/Thinking ahead.
In every state I've been in, "hunting pastures" are not designated. The land owner can simply allow (or not allow) hunting. So unless the school district was willing to buy roughly 8 times to necessary land to ensure there were no private owners within, say, 1,500 yards, it seems more useful to disallow hunting within certain perimeters of schools.
Regardless of sight lines, however, it is the SHOOTER'S responsibility to ensure that s/he knows where the bullet will end up, not society's responsibility to build walls to prevent kids from getting shot.
And, yes, I am an avid shooter. Any shooter trying to claim this is not shooter negligence is not someone I want to be on a range with and that I hope does not have (and cannot get) an NRA certification.
Who's responsibility to build the walls? I'm all for them, but should the hunters license pay for them or the school? (via tax dollars).
I don't live in texas, but theres enough hunting going on around me that I'd have to be concerned... I hear gunshots in my neighborhood (it's very rural- it's deer hunting season). Should I have the expectation that hunters are doing due dilligence or should I have to build massive concrete walls?
Leatherneck I believe you have a touch of a philosopher in you. Your logic is ingenious.
Those idiots building a school near a pasture. And I can't belive the they didn't have 12 foot wall all the way around it.
Mayhem-3971499: I was not talking about all the way around, just the sides exposed to the Hunting area.
As a hunter safety instructor, my input is a school should not have to barricade themselves against all possible threats from outside their zone. The individual is the one that is responsible for knowing where the bullet is going once it leaves the cartridge case and down the muzzle. For being a leatherneck, you should know that from your Marine training. !!!!! Building walls around a school or any other buidling is ludicrous.
There is a reason they didn't build a concrete wall. The people in charge are fools.
Well, we cleared that up...
It's the School Buildings fault!
Leatherneck:
Your comments reflect poorly on the Corps.
2 kids > one lost buck
DelFairchild-1968594 and primate guy being a Marine I learned one hard lesson in life YOU CANT TRAIN STUPID PEOPLE. By the way looks like I'm not the only one who figured a concrete wall was a smart Idea. The school is now considering erecting one for safety.
I'm surprised they aren't planning on tearing the school down and relocating it.....hunters need to hunt - a safe educational environment should be the secondary concern...
Hmmm, it appears many people value hunting more than education. The results of that preference are pretty clear in this case. The hunters cannot hit their targets, and are uneducated, assuming that an educated person would be able to read a map and know there is a school down range. Seems to me there must be plenty of open space in Texas far away from schools.
What the heck were they thinking putting a stupid darn school right in the middle of prime hunting turf?!?!?!
Many fine Texans have long since proven that edmucation is pretty much worthless.
The should have been using that taxpayer money to build ore shootin' ranges not skouls!
sorry i can't understand what i am assuming is a Colorado spelling special skill.
but there are a few things, was it one shot or multiple.
1 the hunting was there before the school.
2 hunting does not mean uneducated.
3 the shooters should have been aware of the school and not fired in that direction. though i find it strange that with a 600 yard shot the bullet would drop on average over 72 inches for a normal hunting round.that means they were shooting from a hill or aiming up near six feet over a deer at 100 yards if the ground was semi level, and no natural baracades were in the way,trees rocks,bushes, and such.
4 its to bad to colorado use to be a place hunters dreamed of going.
Sorry, but Colorado is no better. You have your own fair share of idiots. You've proven that by your post.
WHO THE HELL CARES IF THE HUNTING GROUND WAS THERE BEFORE THE SCHOOL!!!!!!!!!!!! Now that there is a school there, all hunting must cease around the school! I don't know why the school built there. It could be that every other spot did not meet federal, state, or local guidelines, or that that spot was the cheapest and saved the most taxpayer money. Regardless, education and thus the children's safety trumps hunting hands down. If your that desperate for venison, find a new ground or buy it at your local market!!!
WHO THE HELL CARES THAT YOU WERE STANDING THERE BEFORE ME!!!!!!!!!!! Now that my body is there, All your standing must cease around me!
I think both of you fail to see the sarcasm &/or humor in Ron's post. But, TC, I fail to see the significance of your #1. So what? You have a gun in your hand, you are responsible for adhering to the most important rules--KNOWING YOUR TARGET and KNOWING THE RANGE, and your #3 solidifies that rule of hunting. And, yes, #2 does not mean that hunting is uneducated. Considering land value in Texas, with such a growing population, it is more economical to build schools outside of city or town limits. If the owner (or owners) of the hunting pasture also had owned the land on which the school was ultimately built, my question would be, since he allows hunting, whether he shares some of the responsibility for the injuries by not posting his land with a warning about the school's direction & proximity to the hunting area. And even if the owner did NOT own the land upon which the school was built, he would have known it was there and still should have posted a warning. It would have been the safest and most sensible thing to do since the school grounds may not be visible, or hunters may NOT be completely familiar with the area, so unaware that there was a school in their line of fire. In any event, such warnings should be posted NOW, before another such incident occurs.
1 hit person is an accident, 2 is on purpose. the only possible explanation for it being an accident with 2 hit is if they were hit with the same bullet.
If the facts were reported accurately, two hits with the same bullet are quite possible in this scenario.
One student had a flesh wound near his armpit, and the other stopped the bullet. A female student interviewed noted hearing no gunshots.
Now, if a high powered rifle was fired anywhere reasonably nearby, the shots would have been heard. Likewise, if the rifle would have been in the immediate vicinity, the bullet's terminal behavior would have been much different. Presuming it was a purpose designed hunting bullet, meaning a hollow point of some type, it would have mushroomed on impact and caused severe injury to the first student hit and may have also passed through the second student, also causing severe tissue damage because of its irregular expanded shape and jagged open edges; it also would likely be tumbling and made a 'keyhole' impact after passing through one person, animal, or object.
Based on what has been reported, this shot could have come from up to or even well over a mile away. This is too far to take an aimed shot at anything and expect to hit it, but this is also what makes errant shots so dangerous...there's essentially no predicting where they'll go and absolutely no control over what they'll hit. At that distance, the muzzle report would also be unlikely to be heard over normal school ground noise. It sounds like the bullet was pretty well spent and did not expand on impact, which happens when the impact velocity is too low.
In my state and many others in this region, it is illegal to hunt deer with rifles. The reason why is that we're mostly flat with low rolling hills. We don't have thick forests and high hills or mountains to stop a shot fired at a deer that was, say, standing on the peak of a hill. That bullet could travel perhaps three miles before touching down if launched at roughly a 45 degree angle from horizontal. Even a .22 Long Rifle bullet fired from a rifle can travel a good mile and a half fired at a 30 degree angle! This goes to show why you not only have to be certain of your target and what's behind it, but also to plan your shot and visually 'follow' that bullet into the ground before you even depress the trigger.
are texan's that egnorant to let people hunt by a school!!!! that sounnds like plain old supidity!!!1
well, they do have a 15 year old 8th grader on their hands... that should tell you something about the level of education these people have.
It's a popular trend in several areas to hold back boys in school at least a year for sports purposes.
chris3355052, are you really talking about how egnorant texans are. you might want to learn how to spell IGNORANT before you start talking about how stupid they are genius
Dusty, that's an unfair, classless and a really backwoods, jerkwater thing to say! The child may have been mainstreamed and has developmental issues. I take it you don't have any such children in your school district? He may have had medical issues early on that kept him out of classes--how about, maybe, chemotherapy, or hospitalization for surgery or surgeries for life-threatening injuries suffered in an accident? If you don't know his or her circumstances, you really should keep your mouth off kids. They may not deserve your insults. Bully much, do you?
Some new information has been reported on the top-of-the-hour radio news this afternoon.
According to one of the national radio news networks, the three men being questioned consist of one deer hunter using what was described as 'an assault rifle' and two men who were 'target shooting' on a nearby ranch.
Still not very much information, but interesting in several respects:
1) I question the 'assault rifle'. That term is used so loosely that it's tough to know just what it means when someone uses it. My best guess would be that perhaps the hunter was utilizing a Ruger Mini-30 sporting rifle, which is an autoloader chambered for the Soviet M43 7.62x39mm service cartridge. It was introduced some years back when ComBloc surplus ammunition was plentiful and cheap. Otherwise, an SKS may have been used, as they sometimes are for deer hunting. It is also an autoloading 7.62x39mm rifle that once was commonly available for a shockingly low price, maybe 15-20 years back. Since the 7.62mm is an approximate .30 caliber, it is generally allowed as a deer hunting rifle in places where a rifle is allowed for deer. The effective range is pretty short, but not a lot different from a .30-30, which is a classic deer rifle for short to moderate ranges (no more than about 250-300 yards, tops). Most other 'assault rifles' are chambered for .223 Remington / 5.56x45mm NATO. This is a centerfire .22 cartridge, and generally prohibited as a deer rifle pretty much everywhere. There are a number of autoloading service rifles in .30 caliber and/or 7.62mm, more specifically 7.62x51mm NATO. Some of these are called 'assault rifles' but are really battle rifles using a full powered cartridge that can be, if the proper bullet and propellant charge is used, more than adequate for the largest game in North America.
2) 'Target shooting' can mean almost anything, too. The layman calls anything that's not hunting or combat 'target shooting'. Strictly speaking, either you're competing in marksmanship by firing carefully aimed shots at a paper target, or else you're practicing for when you will be doing that. There are many other varieties of recreational shooting that are not as formal. You get 'plinking' of tin cans and other improvised targets, and then you get people who are merely test firing small arms for the experience of squeezing some rounds off without much regard for aiming or hitting anything specific. If not treated at least somewhat seriously, a lot of damage can be done when people get carried away doing this.
3) Hunting regulations universally require an expanding bullet if a rifle is being used. Part of this is so the bullet effectively and humanely kills the hunters' quarry, and also because hollow points that strike an object and expand will deform enough that they'll slow down considerably, fragment, or otherwise be hindered from continuing on a long, uncontrolled trajectory. However, there are some hunters who will unwisely and unlawfully use solid, non-expanding 'ball' cartridges if they have them or else can buy them cheaper than hollowpoint hunting cartridges. All surplus military ammunition is solid tipped because international conventions dictate that only solid, non-expanding ammunition is utilized in military weapons. You can buy hollowpoint ammunition in virtually all military calibers, but sometimes it's hard to find or if you have a quantity of economical surplus ammunition on hand, it's tempting to just use it.
4) Recreational shooting can be done with any kind of bullet that isn't illegal to possess (like ones that may be explosive, incendiary, etc.) in the locality but usually solid bullets are used because they're the cheapest and hollowpoints will only be used if that's all someone has or if, somehow, they were able to be purchased at a real bargain price. While solids are cheap, they do not expand. This is fine for shooting paper targets and tin cans, and in military use solid bullets theoretically do not cause excessively grievous injuries to humans (but many solid military projectiles are prone to tumble or fragment on impact). However, solid bullets, because they do not expand, will penetrate much more solid material before they're stopped, and can often pass right through people, animals, or inanimate objects and keep right on travelling. They're also very prone to ricochet off of rocks, bricks, metallic debris, standing water, etc.
Near where I live, some years ago a farmer was shooting a .357 Magnum revolver in his back lot. I believe he was 'plinking' tin cans, and his backstop was a large wood pile. One of his shots went into said woodpile and found a splitting wedge that had been left in there. The bullet glanced off of it, traveled over 3/4 of a mile in a very different direction than the farmer was aiming, and was found embedded in the wall of a care facility. They say he about had a coronary when he was approached about it sometime later; he hadn't any idea what had happened. I don't think he got in any legal trouble, just scared half to death and urged to be more careful in selecting a backstop next time.
Our 'target shooters' at the area ranch could have been horsing around and shooting whatever kind of rifle(s) they had in an unsafe manner, or else a stray bullet could have gone somewhere they hadn't anticipated, which was the school yard. This is why ricochets are extremely dangerous and great care must be taken to ensure there are no opportunities for them to occur on your shooting range. This is done by eliminating all rocks and scrap iron as well as NOT firing any shots over a pond or lake where the bullet may skip off the surface of the water.
Dusty #7.3
"they do have a 15 yr old 8th grader"
and he's the Valedictorian...
Duhhh its hunting season and they hunt in that pasture over there,so let's hold the basketball tryouts outdoors!!! Somebody needs to get their head out of the sand.
Cath8385 - let me get this straight, you think that the school officials are idiots because they let kids play outside on school grounds during hunting season? Should these kids wear orange jackets and caps when they walk from their parents cars into the school each morning too?
If you look at the google map for Harlan Middle School, you'll see a patchwork of fields among the development - it is beyond belief that they would allow hunting near this school. A shooting range maybe could be safely fit in to that area, but hunting, near a school?? Well, hindsight is 20-20, and the lawsuit is going to shut down that ridiculously small hunting area. No doubt the rabbits, doves, armadillos, and other tiny creatures that such a little patch of land would support, will be relieved.
You need to get your head out of someplace other than the sand. Know what I'm sayin''?
This is what happens when you run all the liberals out of a place.
Yee-haw
:)
This is what happens when you let liberals pick a location for a new school.
a shooting at a school turns political. knew it wouldn't take long moron
If it was an accident, I can only say that they do happen. If the hunters were not aware the school was located there, say the view was blocked by a thick stand of trees. But that begs the question, if the tree line was that heavy, how did any round get through without striking something.
If it was pure ignorance, as above, it happens but can be corrected.
The last point, I don't want to consider. That it was intentional. If this is the case, lock them up and throw away the key. Just make sure any cell mates are aware that they shot kids... there's a wierd prison justice system that will show them the error of their ways.
And yes I own and use guns. I DON'T condon what happened here, and hopefully it will be determined to be an accident. If not, you've already seen what I would like to happen.
It is the shooters sole responsibility to know the terrain before shooting, in my opinion. If the kids were playing baseball and broke a window it would be their fault, but to shoot a high powered rifle it is somehow not the shooters' fault. An accident implies reasonable measures were taken, I disagree that this is that case.
With google maps, google earth and numerous other mapping sites not knowing what was around isn't an excuse. I extensively map out my hunting spots, measure distances to houses or other buildings and know my fields of fire. I will add that I have never had to aim up at a deer, so I'm somewhat doubtful this was a hunting accident given 600 yards at a level or lower shot wouldn't have likely made it to the school. When people talk of extreme ranges a weapon can reach, this also means an elevated shot.
I love that people are upset they put a school near the hunting fields. Umm how about getting rid of the hunting fields near the school? Oh s**t ...sorry thats just logic kicking in. Cant let that happen in Texas.
What state are you from? You put down my state, so let me trash yours!
cp from PA: I don't think you are being logical. One wouldn't shut down the hunting fields, since they were there first. The logical thing to do would have been to pick a more suitable location for the school.
so you are saying destroy the environment, let local wildlife be moved from the area or stop hunting and let starvation and disease spread there by killing the animals in horrible ways just like chronic wasting disease?
granted the hunters should have known a school was there, PA systems, school bells and such. and then thy should have not fired in that direction and found a better angle to hunt from as to not endanger any one.
there is more to this story were not getting. i bet we will never get it all because it will be old news way to soon.
Or just close the school. It is Texas, after all.
Then all the former students could become judges in the Eastern DIstrict and grant reward patent trolls.
They take homes to put in highways, i'm sure it would not have hurt anyone to take a hunting spot for a school. Hunting is to control animal populations. Development would push the animals out. I wonder how many animals were in the area with the development going on. You don't decide the placement of a school because of a hunting pasture, you just put the school in and make hunting in that area off limits. Otherwise, why not just keep the hunting pasture downtown Houston? Oh, I forgot, they had to take the hunting pasture for the office building that is now downtown Houston. Same thing, you take the hunting pasture for the school. "Lets see, where do we put the school? near this hunting pasture, or near that one over there? How about near that one over there? I don't know, hunting pastures are everywhere. Ahh forget the school, they don't need one. NO, you take the pasture for the school.....
Scarlett31 in response to cp from PA:
What state are you from? You put down my state, so let me trash yours!
Seriously??
Its called a farm.
In response to Scarlett:
*shakes head pitifully*
Roger,
There are a lot more animals inside the city limits than there are outside per unit area. Animals know where the boundries are of their santuary. I've seen deer move into the city limits during deer season. It may not be by actual knowledge of a safe area than it it most likely going somewhere that the deer are not pressured. But it does show that city limits are reserves of sorts and animals take advantage of it during times of stress.
Scarlett31 in response to cp from PA:
What state are you from? You put down my state, so let me trash yours!
PA is the postal abbreviation for Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania is a State in the United States of America. Texas is also a State in the United States of America, contrary to popular belief within the state.
Once they built a school in that location, hunting in the area should have been banned or a concrete barrier erected. I would prefer the banning since accidents could still happen.
JerseyGirl1947: Don't you think they should have picked a more suitable location for the school. It wasn't the hunting fields decision to build the school that close to them.
Hell, lets NOT put in this needed Highway. I mean why take a home to put in a highway. Why take a hunting pasture for a school. Different location??? what hunting pasture are they going to put it near??? they are everywhere...
They very well may not have even known the school was there, it doesn't say they were local hunters, does not excuse being irresponsible though.
Guns don't kill, dumba ss rednecks with high powered rifles shooting them towards schools do.
or angry kids, upset parents not getting ther free food,or spouses,or many other people.
Love it (the comment). We used to live in Indiana and there was a wonderful neighborhood on the west side of town but people used to complain about "the hunters right on the other side of them trees." The utter stupidity of authorities not immediately arresting anyone with a high-powered weapon anywhere near a public place...and of hunters themselves being so inconsiderate, and such morons, to even think of hunting anywhere near a public place...I'm afraid people in these places may be beyond help, "you can't reach them." Maybe it's like in the movie Brubaker: "One way to fix him." "How?" Put a bullet in him."
+++++
Larry the Cable Guy: "These two fellers was out hunting. One of 'em says, 'I can see your house and your wife's cheating with another man.' The other one says, 'Do me a favor: shoot her in the head and him in the private parts.' First feller says, 'I can get that with one shot.' "
...And lowly ghetto trash.
ohh how many weapons related hunting accidets happend there?
seems as though your idea is to .. kill other people. perhaps thats what the "hunters" were thinking about the school, perhaps not.
lol oh you bass ackwards Texans. Who is the numbskull that decided a school would look "real purdy right there next to that there huntin' range?"
Mother Nature has a funny, yet effective, way of filtering out the idiots.
No Capt, if Mother Nature could filter out the idiots we wouldn't be reading your posts.
mm clever and original. Good going Jim, I'm impressed. No, seriously, I am...
Is this like, NRA vs NBA: Shoot - Shoot !
Hunting fields next to a school. What is wrong with this picture. Talk about stupidity on every level. Only in Texas
I would think common law should grandfather the 'hunting fields', whatever they are. Would you build a school on rail road tracks? Or by a refinery or ammunition factory? Some would. New mega-houses were build adjacent to a rail road that was dormant. When the dormant rail road went active, the sounds of the home owners could be heard over the sound of the train.
WHy don't you shut your mouth about Texas. I come from that area. I can tell you that even there we know not to hunt near schools. This was a mistake, yes. But they do happen, and not just in Texas! Why don't you tell me where you are from so I can criticize it!
Hunting next to a school isn't a mistake.
It's stupidity.
How do two kids get hit? That makes me think it was intentional.
Dont shot until you have the deer in your sights. . . or two kids?
As far as stray bullets go, as a veteran and someone who is trained to properly use a firearm, one of the first things taught is not to pull the trigger unless you intend to kill the target. Stray bullets should not happen when abiding by this safety precaution. . . let alone two.
@Christopher,
Mu thoughts exactly. When I read that 2 students were hit, red flags when up for me...I would like to know the hunters age and background???
it sounds like some one is using the hunting as an excuse if it was really 2 bullets fired. though for the minimal damage from the rounds it sounds like there was allot of distance. possible the bullet fragmented and this was a ricochet.
This is why I gave up shotgun hunting for deer years ago. Too many damn idiots out there. Most hunters are safe and courteous people. But the morons end up outweighing them in the end. Only takes one and there are far more than that who don't hunt with safe practices, or simply don't know what they're doing and are just out with buddies. Every year you hear reports like this, hunters shot by other hunters. I'm amazed at the increased frequency that hunters are "shot" by their dog. Only one way that happens and it sure isn't the dog's fault.
My guess is that some deer ran across their paths and they simply started hurling lead at them without any regard of where they were or what was behind them. And I'll further guess that these hunters didn't hit these two children with the only two shots they fired. There were probably casings all over the place.
So when you were firing on a military range there was really no need for the safety berms, air guards or other precautions?
Bassai:
You can be certain that if there were not safety berms, air guards, or other precautions, anyone shooting and endangering the rest of the base would be court martialed. Soldiers do intend to kill safety berms. They hate them.
For the love of god can we give TX back to Mexico already and be done with it. I'm sure the Mexican Gov't would welcome the return so long as it was accompanied with a sincere apology for the Alamo.
just saying...
And why don't we give you back to wherever you came from. Shut up about Texas!
Scarlett, i've got 4 votes in favor. Better brush up on your spanish!! :-)
Get over yourself Scarlett, sheesh. TX isn't exactly known as a shining bastion of higher thought, so go to another article perhaps - instead of just making TX look even worse.
No habla espanol.
texas is much better than D.C.
Scarlett already does speak spanish.
Don't know about giving us to Mexico?? But I sure do know a bunch of you unfriendly "Northerners" sure like to come to sweet ole Texas and stay........ What's up with that??? But we're nice to "you guys" anyway and we do try not to let our hunters hunt too close to the hotels and RV parks........ :)
By the way that School is in a populated area and if you look at the area, I have not ever seen any property large enough for hunting.......but their population is still under 100 K ......so
§ 42.12. DISCHARGE OF FIREARM IN CERTAIN
MUNICIPALITIES. (a) A person commits an offense if the person
recklessly discharges a firearm inside the corporate limits of a
municipality having a population of 100,000 or more.
(b) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.
(c) If conduct constituting an offense under this section
also constitutes an offense under another section of this code, the
person may be prosecuted under either section.
(d) Subsection (a) does not affect the authority of a
municipality to enact an ordinance which prohibits the discharge of
a firearm.
Added by Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 663, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1995.
Let us get the facts of the investigation first.
You would think that school and children's safety takes precedence over hunting, but what do I know about Texas. If hunting grounds are so close to school, it was an accident waiting to happen. Just commonsense.
Hunting gronds are not always built around public areas in Texas. Obviously city planners made a mistake. This could have happened anywhere. Stop blaming Texas or I'll start insulting your state!
Scarlett, get over it. Texas sucks and we all know it. You can criticize Colorado all you want, but we still know that Texas sucks.
Hey CaptBrng! Who's the "we" that all know Texas suck? Kind of a dumb ststement don't you think?
BTW, where was Dick Cheney when the shooting occurred?
Anybody who doesn't live in Texas constitutes as the "we" ol' Jimmy boy. You seem to get riled up about anti- texas statements, mine in particular. Let me guess, you're a proud Texan? If so, I'm sorry on your behalf.
Scarlett, I'm from Washington State. Come at me.
Just to clarify: Texas has very few public lands per square mile. Most areas considered hunting grounds are privately leased, or permission is granted by the landowner. I doubt this was a publicly designated hunting area. If it is typical it was private land.
Therefore these idiots were in essence shooting at their neighbors, not utilizing some public hunting ground.
The hunters must have been pretty good shots to hit two moving targets at 600yards.
Good thing they weren't NBA players as they are usually better armed than the hunters.
Very astute comment regarding NBA players. The fact that NBA players are usually packing hand guns, however, still gives the advantage to the three Gents toting rifles.
No Sammie......It would be the shoes......yea must be the shoes......
If it was these hunters, they should pay whatever price Texas assesses. Most schools are visibly marked by huge safety zone signs so as to preclude this. Even if the school board negligently hadn't established these zones, liability follows the bullet. Even when some lame-brained, fixated anti-hunters with agenda dresses their own innocent kids up in deer hide or bear skins and marches these poor, obviously unloved kids into hunting areas, the hunters must take the rap.
Is there a pattern here?
When stupid people kill someone with their guns, then its just an accident.
accidents still involve legal recourse they will not just be told to shoot better next time.
wonder what they were hunting?
Teachers?