Religion has been the worst thing that ever happened to the human race.

.

Reid was quoted as saying, "that somebody in this county who would try to basically debase Christmas like this. This really crossed the line."

Oh puhleez. The commercialization of Christmas already beat us Atheists to that.

Okay .... atheists (which I am) and religious folk alike.

READ HISTORY PLEASE!

Christmas (or the tradition thereof), has a long history that predates Christianity. It's a pagan ritual in honor of the solstice. It isn't about "Christ" anymore than Christmas Trees are about Christianity. All of it, the trees ... December 25th ... ALL of it is traceable to its pre-Christian (PAGAN) traditions.

So, Atheists, stop rallying against the holiday. Quit fighting about what to call it and other childish nonsense. It just makes the rest of us secularists look bad when you're bickering over a "Christmas" Tree or "Holiday" tree.

And Christians, for god's sake, put your bible down and read a history book for once. This isn't rocket science ... it's incredibly easy to find out where the traditions of Christmas came from and why it's celebrated when it is. Here's a hint, Jesus wasn't born on the 25th of December and it's not in the bible. Here's another hint: "Saturnalia" ... Look it up.

It takes just as big as a leap of faith to say something does not exist.... the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence... Atheists don't like it when religion is crammed down their throat... don't cram your godless religion on others.

It takes just as big as a leap of faith to say something does not exist....

Would you say the same thing about fairies? How about unicorns? I could pretty much pull anything from thin air and tell you it "existed" ... but does that put the burden of proof on you? I should think this question answers itself ... and it's no different for your god, or islam's god, or any of the other thousands of gods man has created and worshiped over the generations.

the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence

See above

the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence

That has got to be the biggest twisted steaming pile of rhetoric I have ever read! It is typical of the argument presented by the various sun(son) worshippers.

Would you say the same thing about fairies? How about unicorns? I could pretty much pull anything from thin air and tell you it "existed"

Religions are not pulled out of thin air. They existed long ago as long as time existed. You're welcome to your own "belief" because that's all there is. Funny how this article talks about atheism as a belief rather than something more neutral like FACTS.

What is the difference between sun worship and government worship? Many atheists I've spoken to are statists also. I would expect them to be die hard anarchists or social darwinists, yet the opposite is true.

I feel sorry for a lot of atheists. They can't simply be content with not following a religion. No, they have to go out and attack religions, forcing THEIR beliefs on others. It's amazing how many of them don't even recognize the blatant hypocrisy of their actions. I have a great idea, though I doubt many atheists will heed it.

Don't believe...SHUT UP...and have a nice day. How's that sound? Oh, right. Never happen. They have a "right" to shove their particular beliefs...or in this case, lack of a belief...down other peoples' throats.

What a bunch of clueless, hypocritical clowns.

And by the way, this is coming from someone who is no fan of religion either. However, unlike them, I simply live and let live. These fools should try it sometime.

UnitedStates1776,

No, the worst thing that ever happened to the human race was never developing a little thing called emotional self-control. A lot of atheists seem to have this condition...just like the religious believers they seem to hate so much. Go figure.

People are stupid, regardless of what they believe.

Dislexic Atheist......." There is no Dog "

No, it might have to do with the hypocrisy of how an all loving god will punish you with eternal torment for not following them.

Religions are not pulled out of thin air. They existed long ago as long as time existed.

So, do the older religions carry more weight than the newer ones because they've been around longer? Is the belief in Horus "more true" than the belief in Christ because it predates it? How about Poseidon? Is he more "true" than the belief Joseph Smith was a true prophet because Poseidon was taming the seas long before Smith was reading golden tablets?

Religions are part of our collective human experience. They are a shared, common denominator within the human condition and should be respected as such ... but they are all equally manmade fabrications that were (yes), created from thin air. Ironically enough, many of the earliest forms were probably literally created from thin air as they were gods we created to help explain weather patterns and the violent (unexplainable) storms we encountered.

And so our country sinks even further into the mire of stupidity. The question I have is that if you are an atheist, why does it bother you that others are not? Its not enough that you can't believe that everthing is created, but you find it necessary to destroy others faith as well. The only thing worse than your soul going to hell is trying to take the rest of us with you!

Christians/Atheists- listen up. You both start this garbage every year like clockwork. Well, guess what? You're both fringe groups cut from opposite ends of the same narcissistic cloth, and neither of you have any right to ruin this time of year for the rest of us who just want to spend time with family and friends and enjoy the holiday season. Both of you are free to believe, or disbelieve anything you wish. But you don't have the right to foist your hatred of each other on the rest of us, so grow up, and shut up. You should both be ashamed of yourselves.

Live through a Texas summer and you will know hell exists 8^)

We have Greek mythology but it wasn't at the time...It was the truth

Perception is Reality

The question I have is that if you are an atheist, why does it bother you that others are not?

Because "beliefs" have consequences for us all and are not housed within a vacuum. They impact our political policies, our stance towards scientific funding and research and our overall attitude towards our fellow human beings. Atheists aren't telling you you don't have the right to believe. You can roll around in fairy dust for all I care, just understand that we are not admonished to respect people because of what they "believe" ... but by the actions that they take.

Religions are part of our collective human experience. They are a shared, common denominator within the human condition and should be respected as such ...

Chad, that is the best argument for tolerating religion I have ever read. I often have to be reminded that people have a right to their beliefs. It is especially hard when religion is used so much to keep poor people voting against their own best interests. I don't know, the whole subject is so darn confusing and it just doesn't seem like there is any easy answer. I mean, are we supposed to tolerate religion just because people have been religious as long as anyone can remember? People have been raping and killing each other for as long as anyone can remember too.

Richard,

No one is cramming anything down your throat...happy holidays

No, they have to go out and attack religions, forcing THEIR beliefs on others.

And when was the last time an atheist knocked on your door and passed out atheist literature? Happens me every few months with you religious folks.

Atheists are like a hound dog that lost its sniffer.. they beat down Religion because they have no place to go, they just wander aimlessly.

Even if Religion was a fable, even if Jesus wasn't born the son of God the Father through Mary with Joseph his Dad a poor carpenter..Even if Jesus didn't walk the cobblestone streets and preach for all of humanity the difference of love and giving and greed and hate then beaten to within a inch of his life and hung on a cross to die for our sins later to be resurrected to heaven is an awesome story ; How could you hate that.

Gnostic atheists are just as fanatical and illogical as any other religious freak. They claim to know the truth, with certainty; they won't hear any deviation from said belief; and they'll jump down your throat with pseudo-science if you try. Several posters here have already done that.

Either you admit that you don't have the answer, or you're banking on a faith-based presumption. End of discussion.

I think the real joke is that being an absolute atheist puts one into some rarified intellectual category. It doesn't. Plenty of scientific giants have been agnostic, including Einstein and Hawking.

Gnostic Atheists, who claim to know the truth, are simply stupid and limited in their own way.

There is no room for faith in science, no matter which direction that faith causes you to lean.

Atheists for the most part...Mind their own business

Religious people like to mind everyone Else's business

I mean, are we supposed to tolerate religion just because people have been religious as long as anyone can remember?

I don't think it's an issue of "tolerating" anything. Everyone has certain "beliefs" based on one thing or another. The reality is, there are very few things in this life not based upon some form of opinion. The difference is some beliefs are informed and some aren't. I become moved when I hear devotional music or read inspirational passages from the Bible. When I walk into a Gothic cathedral, my knees get weak and the hairs on the back of my neck stand at attention by the sheer beauty of the building. As I said, there is much found in religion that is a shared experience ... one we all maintain for better or for worse.

The irony here is that the more and more we gain through science, the smaller and smaller their god becomes. That's not to say there isn't a god, or couldn't be a god (there very well could be). But our terrestrial attempts at creating a practice to glorify "X", are becoming less and less the only cause we have for experiencing the natural world. The awe, mystery, and transcendental experience of the natural world is so much more beautiful than anything our religions could have ever even imagined.

Does that mean we forget about our history? No.

Does it mean we forge a new path with the new information and collective data that we've gained through generations of shared, cultural experience? I surely hope so.

I am a believer in the Christian God and that Jesus Christ died for my salvation. I share my faith with fellow believers and anyone who wants to listen. I do not force my beliefs on anyone. I enjoy talking with fellow believers and non-believers alike, about any topic. I do not in any way feel threatened by non-believers. So why is it that atheists feel so threatened by believers. Furthermore do they attack all religions equally or just Christianity? To me their efforts seem more like that of a group that feels left out, and the only way they know how to respond is by taking away my freedom to enjoy my religion. There is a cost if you choose to live in a country where the vast majority of people are Christian, and that cost is to feel left out when everyone else is celebrating the birth of Christ. As for what day Christ was born, how can we ever know for sure, if you're off by 1 day or 182.5 days, what does it matter?

If everyone Christian or otherwise actually lived by the teachings of Jesus Christ, there would be no problems in this world, it would literally be Heaven on Earth. However we humans, Christian or otherwise, are incapable of living that way. God gave us freedom to live our lives as we see fit, and reap the rewards or suffer the consequences both here on Earth and in our spiritual lives to follow this life. There are too many unexplainable things that happen, far beyond our capability to understand or explain. These events are not proof of God, but they are evidence.

Don't believe...SHUT UP...and have a nice day. How's that sound? Oh, right. Never happen. They have a "right" to shove their particular beliefs...or in this case, lack of a belief...down other peoples' throats.

You know what Wizard...I don't have a problem with that...provided that you can keep the religious zealots out of our government! ...out of our bedrooms ...in short, believe what you want to believe but don't force it down my throat!

No, nosy people mind everyone else's business, no matter their belief.

Old-Doc, amen to that.

Raisa,

First, let me just say, damn.

That is by far the greatest Newsvine pic I've ever seen.

Second, I've never heard an atheist say they "know" anything about god, his existence, or otherwise. Atheism is really a made up term that doesn't mean a whole lot. I'm as atheistic about Jesus as I am about Santa.

Third, damn. Did I mention your pic is ridiculous

Why do atheists have to be joy-killing blowhards? If you really don't believe, you should just laugh and not give a flying...

EngEsq,

You are obviously lacking in reading comprehension and critical thinking skills so I'll correct your inaccurate assumptions.

First off, I'm not one of the "religious folks", as I specificially mentioned in my first post. You might want to actually read a person's entire comment before you attempt to respond to it. It'll help keep you from looking a little less clueless in the future.

Secondly, you don't have to knock on someone's door and attempt to give them literature to be shoving your beliefs down their throats. Ever hear of billboards, putting out lots of ads on radio, tv or magazines? Gee, this very article had pictures of different atheist setups mocking religion.

But I guess that isn't shoving their beliefs down other peoples' throats huh? Only religions can do that right? Get a clue.

@big mac 4590839. I stand by my comments sir. And, for what it's worth, I feel pity for both atheists and christians who seem to have such little joy in their hearts that the only comfort they can find at what should be a peaceful and loving time for those of all philosophies, is to go to war with one another. How truly sad.

It's one thing to side with science. It's another to take out your frustrations on a holiday.

For those of you who don't know atheists personally, there's something you should know:

Very few atheists are actually 100% bona fide God-cannot-exist atheists. To date, I have never met anyone of that creed. Instead, most (including myself) who identify as atheists are agnostic leaning to different degrees towards atheism. There's a good reason that atheist is used rather than agnostic- agnostic is such a broad category that it doesn't convey any useful information. Agnostic by derivation means "without-knowing." Agnostic can mean that you'd say the chances of God existing or not is about 50%, or perhaps that God likely exists but we can never really know, or like many self-proclaimed atheists, that God almost certainly does not exist, but we can never be sure. Among the scientific community, those who do not identify as atheists are the minority. As a true scientist, one needs evidence for belief, and without such evidence for belief we can do nothing but follow what the current empirical evidence suggests.

As an atheist, I won't say that God cannot exist. However, it is my personal conviction that if a divine creator were to exist, said creator would have no interest in human affairs, and that creator would have had nothing to do with religion as we know it, which is to say that religion as we know it, in any form, is a fabrication. I am not also against the idea of God, but if no evidence can speak in favor of a divine creator, then no evidence can speak against the existence of one. That's a mathematical statement.

As Chad said, I find much of religion disturbing because it affects our social policies and funding of scientific research. Historically, religion has very much been opposed to science and social progress. Science, because any and all empirical evidence that could possibly contradict what appears in religious texts does. Social progress, because the world was a very different place when many religious texts were written, and under the blind-faith of many followers, they feel that these texts were the word of a divine creator rather than scholars who lived in a very different society filled with xenophobia, homophobia, sexism, and superstition.

If someone believes that the universe came from a divine creator, I'd be fine with that. Unfortunately, such things come in packages with dogmatic beliefs about what I can or can't do behind closed doors, or whether a woman has a right to her body if she becomes pregnant, or whether or not scientists will be able to do research on stem cells, which presently hold enormous potential for new medical treatments for aliments that are currently untreatable.

Ol Doc,

I don't like having others' religious beliefs shoved down my throat either, so I agree with you. My point was that it's EXTREMELY hypocritical for these atheist groups to complain about having religion shoved down their throats when they do the exact same thing with their displays.

I have no problem with someone who doesn't believe in God or who doesn't follow any organized religion. I DO have a problem with people who decide that since they don't believe in God and don't LIKE religion that it's ok for them to mock it, attack it, deride people who do believe, etc.

People have a right to believe or not believe. However, they do NOT have a right to mock others for their beliefs, or lack of them. You mock a religious person in my presence and you'll hear about it. By the same token, if you mock someone in my presence because they don't believe in God, you will also hear about it.

I detest meanness and petty emotional bs, regardless of its source. It would be a much nicer world if 99% of humanity would grow the hell up.

MireV03 1.4

It takes just as big as a leap of faith to say something does not exist.... the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence... Atheists don't like it when religion is crammed down their throat... don't cram your godless religion on others.

Ah, yes, the unrepentant empty mewlings of Christian false witness and terminal ignorance. Too bad such isn't painful.

You stated:

It takes just as big as a leap of faith to say something does not exist.... the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

No leap or baby step of faith involved. You lack belief in a myriad of entities as that holiday display suggests. The difference is I lack belief in the Abrahamic mythos as well-and the lack of special treatment to your favorite mythology bothers you.

Examine the following examples;

Tiamat the Dragon manufactured (created) everything.

Odin All-Father manufactured (created) everything.

Amon-Ra manufactured (created) everything.

Mbombo of Bakuba mythology, who vomited out the world upon feeling a stomach ache

Vishvakarman in Vedic mythology, manufactured (created) everything

The Elves of Underhill manufactured (created) everything

Continue to insert every manufacturer deity through out time.

All statements are equally valid. The Abrahamic mythos has hefty problems. One problem is temporal. This mythos is just over 2,000 years old. Babylonian mythology weighs in a some 5,500 years of age. Your mythology is 'as a babe at first suck' in comparison to its elders.

Whoops! That eliminates the Christian mythology as it is demonstratively false. The Babylonian mythology (as does every manufacturing claim) suffers on several counts.

1) Objective supporting evidence the universe was manufactured?

2) Objective supporting evidence a person's favorite mythos deserves credit? (keep in mind the time line eliminates the Abrahamic mythology from consideration.) So, the objective time line evidence supports the Babylonian mythology as per 'manufacturer credit'. Is this acceptable to you? Why or why not and please show your work.

The 'manufacturer' assertion indicates everything must have a 'manufacturer'. Such leads to a never ending line of 'manufacturers'.

To try to hand wave this problem away many Christians bring in an 'uncaused cause'. This tactic destroys their own 'argument'. Now, everything doesn't have to be manufactured (You've sunk your own metaphorical fleet).

The question now comes back full circle; What objective supporting evidence is there the Universe was manufactured?

These aren't the only problem with the Christian mythology, but they will do for a start. It should also be noted that the requirement to have religious faith acknowledges the disconnect with reality.

You've also falsely stated in the latter part of your statement: Atheists don't like it when religion is crammed down their throat... don't cram your godless religion on others.

'Bald is not a hair color' no matter how many times you insist it is. Bald is a lack of hair. 'Not stamp collecting' is stamp collecting.

You might read up on word groups which have an 'a' prefix. This means 'without the following property.'Amazing' (sarcasm alert) how folks like you only have a problem with one of the examples.

Some examples are;

apolitical=without politics

agnostic=without knowledge

atheist/atheism=without theism, theos, god(s), goddess(es)

asynchronous=without synchronization

asymmetrical=without symmetry

Christians don't bother me. What does bother me is being lied about. If you had indicated this was all internal to you (rather than projecting Xian stupidities onto others when you well know there are myriad people (including other religions who lack belief in your precepts)) these things could have been explored to a point where you said; I don't know or I haven't come to a conclusion yet-there would have been no problem.

I surmise you don't have a problem with non-christian religious folks. So, why do you have a problem with those who aren't any type of theist?

G. Gable - The question I have is that if you are an atheist, why does it bother you that others are not?

The problem isn't your religion per se, it's your desire to use our secular government to prop up your religion. Your religious displays belong at your home or at your church, not on public property.

Wizard, I never claimed you are "religious folks", I merely pointed out that of all the people I see forcing their opinions on others atheists don't typically come to mind. Here we have a billboard, on a news article. I have never seen such a billboard in person, they are very rare. I have seen billboards for jesus, against abortion, for churches etc every week. Not to mention those early morning visits. That was the point of my comment.

If athiests are shoving their beleifs down your throats, then religious people have shoved it so hard it is comming out the other side. To quote you "get a clue".

Stoney for president! I wish I could vote your post up 100 times.

mirev03,

Your ignorance is astounding.

It is NOT a leap of faith to say that something does not exist; it is fact and logic.

One does not need to prove a negative; the very fact that there is no proof of God's existence puts the burden of proof on the one who DOES believe God exists. You are the one making the claim, why would I need to prove you wrong? You need to prove your story.

Example (I know you're a believer and therefore a little slow, but try to keep up): you go into a bank and try to withdraw money. They ask you to prove your identity by showing your driver's license. If you can't provide proof of your identity, do they give you the money because THEY can't prove you AREN'T who you say you are? No, Einstein, you walk out empty-handed because you made a claim and couldn't back it up with proof.

As for a godless religion, again, your ignorance...just mind-boggling. Atheism is not a religion. It's a made-up term for people who have the common sense not to believe their life is controlled by a higher power.

That being said, I believe this group is out of line; I think people who believe in God are mindless sheep, but I don't go out of my way to ruin their celebrations.

Well, Julkie, America is not.

Stoney, I agree with living. If I had a clapping icon I would use it a hundred times!

@Hardtostarboard,

Did you really just asky why atheists feel threatened by Christians, and not vice-versa? Um, maybe because the sheep outnumber the people using common sense about 1,000,000 to 1...I made up that number, but there are VASTLY more religious nutjobs like yourself than there are atheists. So our social policies are controlled by idiots who base their lives on a fairy tale. Basically, the atheist population has no say in public policy, and any time an atheist tries to exercise his rights, the sheep generally say "Well iffin yall dont buhleeve in Gawd, yall kin git the hell out of the USA!"

It's kind of like asking a Black or Native American in the 1800s why they felt threatened by whites.

I thought this was a liberal website. Is it just me or does this article sound so biased that it could have been cut and pasted directely from the fox news website?

Man, atheists are so pushy. Imagine no atheists.

wizard

The difference is: Atheist displays, I don't have to pay any attention to. Religious nutjobs trying to alter civil laws to match their religious idealism---big 4v<king problem.

Rob, I had trouble taking anything you said seriously after the nasty way you started your post. Just a hint...name-calling doesn't make you look smarter by any means.

And most atheists don't want to destroy anyone's faith, but just basically want to live in peace without being harassed, legislated to from religious views, or judged. Don't speak for all of a group you aren't authorized to speak for, please.

@Cullerco,

"Why do atheists have to be joy-killing blowhards? If you really don't believe, you should just laugh and not give a flying..."

If only Christians could use that approach towards gays. I guess holding signs that say "GOD HATES FAGS" is okay though, right?

Christians are the most hateful group of hypocrites in America; if anyone does anything that's not in line with their views, they've got to protest, but if someone protests their mentions of God on our money and in our nation's pledge, they say "If you don't like it, get the hell out!"

I feel sorry for a lot of atheists. They can't simply be content with not following a religion. No, they have to go out and attack religions, forcing THEIR beliefs on others.

I thought that's what religions do.

And isn't that why we are fighting, how many wars again?

Everyone needs to dial down the theology or lack thereof, not spend money like a bunch of tinsel-festooned crackheads, and enjoy the ancient tradition of gathering together for some fun in the darkest time of the year.

It's a big universe, and we jumped-up hamsters probably aren't ever going to understand all of it. Just looking at the Milky Way on a clear night is enough cause for celebration.

ram,

So you ARE authorized to speak on behalf of all atheists? You just made an unsubstantiated claim about atheists. How do you know how most atheists feel? I wasn't given a survey.

Also, not sure which comment you're referring to, but "you ignorant slut" is a classic Dan Aykroyd line from Saturday Night Live (on Weekend Update..."Jane, you ignorant slut."). It was his response to something Jane had just said, which he clearly felt was nonsense. Too clever for you I guess.

Beautifully stated Melissa. As a fellow stargazer, and citizen of a vast universe, I salute you. Peaceful solstice, and a joyous yuletide to you.

AlMightyDollar,

EXACTLY! Just amazing the hypocrisy the believers spew on here.

And for the record, believers, atheists don't cram beliefs down anyone's throat; we don't HAVE beliefs on the subject. Thus the term "atheist", "without religion".

I direct you to the post a few posts back that used "bald is not a hair color". Says it perfectly.

Eric,

Who are you responding to?

If it was me, let me point out first that you appear to be mildly retarded based on your spelling ability (not to mention the fact that you believe in God).

Now, to the post itself:

First, why do you think I would care about which direction I'm going when I die? Death is final; there is no 'direction' to go.

Second, who am I trying to 'convert'? You're already converted by whoever got you to believe in the first place. I'm just stating facts; I highly doubt any of the sheep will listen to common sense.

Third, you say "You are destroying their culture. If you do that, you lose the knowledge you could gain." I'm not destroying anything; atheists are the vast minority. And I certainly cannot gain knowledge from a religious nutjob; I can only become more stupid (case in point, see...you.)

Fourth, yes, actually, one man CAN tell you what will happen after you die. Me. And that is, nothing. Your body, however, will rot away underground, unless you decide to be cremated. Point being, there is no afterlife. It's a myth.

Your education is complete; you may sit down now.

I don't believe in atheist...therefore they don't exist.

Bah Humbug to you.

Look at it like this, there are 1000s(100,000s?) of different types of religions and they all have different beliefs that contradict each other. So there is no way they can all be right. Atheism on the other hand is just non belief and if one of us is right we are all right.

Regarding my spelling. Who invented it? I R not retarded you insensivtive pr!ck. Nor my I have perfect spelling. You are not dead and rising to tell me what will happen you athiest. Is that how you selpl it? Just like the Cathlics/Catholics and Mormans/Mroamns, Your situpid peolpe tell or ask others what is real?

You knor I know. Just recently they found a molecule that can travel faster than the speed of light. Oh wait? Is that possible? OMG, a human said that wan't possible. It's not nice to pick on people with special needs. Shame on you and you... dot, dot , dot. Or dittle. Do you know what that means? Google it. FU

I am a homophobic. Which means I am afraid of man on man and such actions ( not the person just the actions)

So, an athiest would be a Christophobic, Right?

Ha, I think I just made up a word. Use it 30,000 times and it will be in the dictionary. This is fun.

This is some funny S*IT. I have found that there are no Atheist in Fox holes. They cry out to God like little babies. Funny S*it I tell you, funny S*it.

Rob, If I were to find the smallest bitches on this thang it would be the people that piont out someone elses spelling. Small, small and smalles. I mean smeelest.

TommyB-4236974

Would you say the same thing about fairies? How about unicorns? I could pretty much pull anything from thin air and tell you it "existed"

"Religions are not pulled out of thin air. They existed long ago as long as time existed. You're welcome to your own "belief" because that's all there is. Funny how this article talks about atheism as a belief rather than something more neutral like FACTS."

Atheism isn't a belief. It is the disbelief or denial of God. They believe in only themselves while trying to trash what they refuse to even try to understand. They have nothing and want to make sure others have nothing too.

Milo - Not in an actual foxhole but I'm an Atheist and currently fighting in Afghanistan and have never once wanted to cry out for god

Rob-3829825

"First, why do you think I would care about which direction I'm going when I die? Death is final; there is no 'direction' to go."

Well, that is what you believe but what proof do you have other than your disbelief? None.

What is the meaning of your life? Nothing, so nothing really matters, to you. So sad.

Christians/Atheists- listen up. You both start this garbage every year like clockwork. Well, guess what? You're both fringe groups cut from opposite ends of the same narcissistic cloth, and neither of you have any right to ruin this time of year for the rest of us who just want to spend time with family and friends and enjoy the holiday season.

While you have a point about the extreme Christians and their interpretation of the holiday, you have to admit it's the atheists on here who are awfully cranky tonight, huh?

Look, even though I'm NO Harry Christner fanatically religious man, I DO celebrate the holiday with my wife and son. I let them have their fun. And YES, I splurge on them. SO WHAT? Who the f*ck cares. It's MY money, NOT anyone else's. Wife and sonny are happy. I'm happy. They love it. I love it. We have JEWISH friends and are going over their house for a Hanukkah dinner this weekend. I am looking forward to it.

To everyone here: enjoy your holiday, however you wish to celebrate it. Don't like the holidays? Then Don't celebrate! Stay at home, lock your door, suck your thumb, pout till the cows come home and don't come out until after the New Year if you feel that way. Fine with me.

Christ, what a bunch of yum yucks.

Please keep your comments down to 5 or 6 lines. I forget what I am reading.

We have theist that believe in things that can't be proven arguing that those things certainly do exist and atheist, whose belief when followed to it's logical conclusion demands that human existence, in the end, is utterly meaningless, arguing with the theist that they are wrong, as if it actually matters.

Humans sure are an interesting species.

I believe that atheists should have the right to post their beliefs if other religions-however, I think that their message should be one promoting themselves-not making fun of other people's beliefs. Just as it would be wrong for a Christian group to put up a billboard saying that Islam is a myth-the same is true when atheists do it.

Just as all Christians do not speak for me, I believe that all atheists do not speak for each other. I have close friends who, while atheist, appreciate that Jesus was a good man. The do not believe he was Divine-but feel that his message is a good reason to celebrate.

There are respectful ways to promote atheism that do not involve intentionally offending people. Doing so would not only be nice-it would go father in ending the war for/against religion. If people feel the need to defend themselves-they are more likely to attack.

UnitedStates1776 money/greed is the worst thing that has happened to the human race. If you do not believe in God, fine don't believe; but believers of any religion have the same rights that you have. If you remember your history, people came to America for freedom of religion (among many other freedoms). People get over emotional when something doesn’t go their way, stop whining.

I am a atheist. I too celebrate christmas with my wife and kids. I don't have a nativity, I don't have an angel on top of the tree, and I still hate to see that stuff on public property. I celebrate christmas cause everybody has off at the same time and I like giving presents. I don't have any more problem with it having christ in the name than the days of the week being named for norse gods. Christians stole christmas from the pagans and someday we will take it from them.

Extremists....religious zealots or over the top Atheist's need to just stop. I am tired of both sides trying to shove it down our throats. Let it go. I am agnostic but I like Christmas tree's, Santa Clause and egg nog. It is the culture of this nation and the melting of several traditions that are just American as Apple Pie...which I also happen to enjoy.

I'm not a believer, don't really care what anyone believes, or not. It's your own right, as it is mine. Just don't push your opinion on me, don't try to convince me how I will rot in hell, or whatever. If you want to believe that you will go to some place in the sky when you die, so be it, save yourself.

As for Christmas, It has no religious meaning to me, but we celerate it every year with the family getting together, we eat, drink, and hey, like Santa, we get Merry. We don't exchange gifts between adults, but do give a generous gift to our parents, and all kids get gifts until they are adults.

This year, we put up a tree, it's our turn to have the holiday at our house. Every other year, the tree basically stays in the box on the basement. We have Jewish friends, so if they visit we bring out the Menorah.

I have friends and family who are believers, (many different faiths) and many who are not. Somehow we all get along, with no hostilities or wars going on between us. I laugh at them if they try to convince me there is a god, some pity me for not believing (behind my back of course), and I laugh a little more.

Basically, who gives a sh!t who believes in what? Get over it, and enjoy life without getting in other peoples business.

Oh, by the way, don't come knocking at my door trying to convert me, don't try and convince me of any existence of a god. If you do, I will tell you I am a follower of the other make believe guy, Satan himself.

The christmas that is spoken of by atheists( and yes, you can admit now that there is a term called that) is completely different from the christmas celebrated by christians. The fact is that if you look back far enough, there isn't anything anywhere that someone else didn't think of as well, or at the same time.

Jews used to perform animal sacrifices, so did pagans; the reason for performing them were different. Are atheists now going to claim that it was the first, the right of pagans and the Jews are copying off of them? No. If there's any stupidity going on, it lies with the atheists. Afterall, they didn't care this long about who thought of it first, why should it matter now?

"How about unicorns?"

Unicorns exist. You've seen pictures of them. Just because you're too lacking in the mental initiative to use your intellect and figure out which animal is being referred to is no reason to exalt yourself as one up on those who know why the book of Job makes it clear that no one is ever going to hook their plow to one and get it to till their field for them as a horse would.

The unicorn is a real animal. You laugh? You laugh because you call it a rhinoceros and you're too intellectually lazy to make the connection.

Jo Ann: "Imagine no atheists." That would be the dark ages in Europe or Afghanistan/Pakistan today....wonderful way to live really. No imagination required.

"Just laughable how you can call atheists stupid, when there is overwhelming scientific evidence against the existence of God, and not a shred of evidence supporting it.

How very bizzarre. How utterly false and untrue. Scientific evidence for God's nonexistence? And no one has ever heard of this evidence. Very spooky.

But the prophets predicted the birth, mistreatment, and death of the Messiah, the Jews are living proof that the prophets did predict this before the fact, and the Romans threw the Christians to the lions for the same reason that they killed Jesus, all of which is consistent with everything I know about atheists, pagans, and human behavior.

"An honest witness will speak the truth, but a false witness will speak lies."

Who can argue with the obvious truth of this statement from the book of Proverbs? And no, it is NOT a tautology. It is a simple and elegant statement of a known true fact. Of course, this can't be scientifically PROVEN, but it is certainly KNOWN to be TRUE.

So history is full of evidence for God's existence. But science, which can't even TOUCH the topic without going OUTSIDE of SCIENCE, has EVIDENCE? That quoted statement above is more queer than a queer is queer.

By doing anything at all for the holidays, atheists prove themselves to be hypocrites. After all, Jesus is the reason for the season. So, by doing anything at all for CHRISTmas athiests admit to hypocrisy.

Bob-3374873

"Religions are not pulled out of thin air. They existed long ago as long as time existed. You're welcome to your own "belief" because that's all there is. Funny how this article talks about atheism as a belief rather than something more neutral like FACTS."

Atheism isn't a belief. It is the disbelief or denial of God. They believe in only themselves while trying to trash what they refuse to even try to understand. They have nothing and want to make sure others have nothing too.

Bob, sorry, wrong answer. I realize you have a belief, great, keep it. But for you to say I have nothing (as you say above about non-believers) you are wrong. I was raised by loving parents, I have a loving caring family, we live happy lives, donate to charities of our choice, have many caring friends, the list could go on.

I have tried to understand religion, contrary to your belief. I also understand science, history, mythology and geology. Your religion didn't make sense to me, so what?

Basically you say if we don't believe in your god, we have nothing. How ignorant can you really get? You sir, are a bad apple that I would call a religious fanatic, and one I would not consider a nice person, nor would I say you had an open mind.

You also make the following statement, "Religions are not pulled out of thin air. They existed long ago as long as time existed." Really? Tell me about this, who believed in religion before man existed? Were dinosaurs religious? You do understand the earth was here billions of years before man, right?

That's just what I was thinking Old Man. In fact, if all of these loudmouths want to show that they're not hypocrites, I think they ought to go to work on Christmas Day.

OldMan: You gotta be joking! Xmas is no more about Christ for many of us than it is Christ's birthday...it's about time off work to spend time and celebrate with family and friends, not bible studies, stoning to death everyone in site or other Xian (Christian) habits. You confuse an OLD label with modern intentions.

Does Love exist? Really, can you prove it? Does it touch you? Can you feel it?

Yes = God, No = Atheist

Now replace Love with God. I am just saying.

Old man, are you hypocrite for getting out of bed on Thursday? A day named for the Norse god Thor. Or, do you believe in Thor too?

"I'm not a believer, don't really care what anyone believes, or not. It's your own right, as it is mine. Just don't push your opinion on me, don't try to convince me how I will rot in hell, or whatever. If you want to believe that you will go to some place in the sky when you die, so be it, save yourself."

And why should I do what you tell me to do?

"Go ye into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature telling them to observe all things whatsoever that I have commanded you."

This is the command that I received from my king. Who are you to countermand that? Who do you think YOU are? I can tell you this, that when you demand that we Christians stop preaching the Gospel, you are going to be ignored and disobeyed. And we won't lose a minute's sleep over it, either.

You could cry me a river about it without disturbing the peacefulness of my slumber.

"Just don't push your opinion on me . . ."

No. No. And no. I will not obey you. Who do you think you are to be telling me what to do? JUST WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE TO BE ISSUING INSTRUCTIONS TO A CHILD OF THE MOST HIGH GOD THAT COUNTERMAND THE CLEAR INSTRUCTIONS WE HAVE ALREADY RECEIVED FROM THE KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS?

Get used to it. That's my advice to you.

Any other way is grief to you.

First it was a Pagan Holiday, Xian's took it over in order to integrate more ppl into their scam and now it's been taken over by the broader secular society. Funny how things change over time.

I do not believe that everyone can just live their life with no consequences. For example: The things people have gotten away with.

I do not believe this little bit of existence is all there is.

I do not believe that nothing put together our bodies, the earth, or the universe.

I believe in my Lord Jesus Christ. He is the Creator.

Earl-1443766

Does Love exist? Really, can you prove it? Does it touch you? Can you feel it?

You nailed it Earl: Both love and God only exist in the minds of people! (and other animals in the case of love)

Earl, love is just an evolved instinct. We as a species try at all cost to find and keep a mate and raise and protect our offspring. Since we are a very evolved complex creature the instinct has evolved as well. It is real and it is great(sometimes) but, it is not magic.

Apparently Christian bashing is OK. Did not hear a word about Islam. Guess the athiest are afraid to critize Islam, lest they get targeted for a jihad and their headquaters bombed by radical muslims.

But da*& those evil Christians.

Seems like everyone is crankly and irritable; athiests and believers. Let's just use some common sense. "Jesus is the reason for the season." The word Christmas comes from Christ. I don't understand why athiests spend money to put up billboards stating their non-belief. They have absolutely nothing to defend so why bother? I, for one, am sick of people taking God out of so many places. Let me live in peace and practice my religion. By the way, athiests, I love you even though your ideas are incorrect.

wayne:

Atheists have "headquarters"???? Nah--in fact they don't have dogma, it's not a religion, they don't all agree on anything necessarily, only that there is no evidence for any of the hundreds of gods---NONE. Islam is arguably even worse than Xianity. (although historically Xians have slaugtered more innocent ppl than Muslims, in the name of their respective faiths) The reason ppl are panning Christians here is due to the reference article and the fact that it is the dominant and most dangerous cult in America today.

The Wizard of Wisdom[sic],

It's funny you should be all up in arms about a couple of satirical billboards. Have you personally ever seen one? I travel around a lot is an understatment, and in my life I have seen exactly ZERO atheist billboards. What I cannot count however, is the number of religious billboards I have seen. What I cannot count is the number of churches that I have come across. The number of street preachers that have graced my ears with their poetic damnations. The number of times I have heard "god" referenced in everyday conversations. The number of times I have surfed through the channels and have been inconvenienced by a televangelist trying to display their meek and feeble propaganda in hope to find an equally week and feeble mind that will be drawn to their proselytizing, and swear themselves over unconditionally. I think it's fair to say that a small voice of reason is not really such a bad thing.

You have to then ask yourself what exactly is the motive? What happens when everyone is pursuaded? Well maybe as time is cyclical, we can go back to where 98% of the population is a ferverent believer, and anything that is different or contrary to that line of thinking is met with distaste and violence. Yeah, lets introduce a theocracy, it seems to work nice for Israel and Palastine. I know you said that you do not succumb to ancient control methods, and dellusions of the wishful variety, but I just want to give you something to maybe dwell on as you will likely read this. People fun little rituals are fine by me, but remember the bad also has to be taken with the good. I'm sure you don't want me to list all of the pagan/christian/jewish/Islamic/buddhist rituals that are either just plain wrong or indoctrinating. I just remember that this particular one doesn't come without a sense of hypocracy. Of the millions of christians out their I would love to know just how many of them understand the alledged significance of this holiday. I bet you would, as I have seen first hand, come to realize that there are more than a few that observe the holiday based upon the societal norms of gift giving and family reunion. Which is a great thing. I say continue to practice it based upon this, but a lot of christians would have a problem with renaming it "Giftmas," and be far to ignorant of their own faith to understand why.

So I disagree whole heartedly about hypocracy being on the side of the atheist. If nothing else can be said about the agenda of an atheist, I would coin "self preservation" as a key motive. The Michele Bachmans and the Rick Perry's of the world would have their faith invading just about everything but your home. This is a worthy fight. It does nothing to take away what you choose to do, it mearly limits the exposure of what will help to perpetuate man made stupidity. See happy holidays out in town, say merry christmas at your home and church. Secularize this world before we lapse into a faith based coma like that of the past.

And Thor is the reason for Thursday! So every Thursday, I want you christians to bow in reverence to the True Son Of ODIN!!!

I think a lot of people have missed the real argument here. Atheists don't care if you make a public display of religion at your home, or your church. Those places belong to you or to you and your fellow worshipers. But a city park belongs to everyone; Athiests, Christians, and belivers of other faiths. It seems very audacious for Christians to feel they have the right to be the only group with a display of their faith on community property. I believe the in-your-face actions of the Athiests are a result. Some Christians think their beliefs deserve special priveledge and consideration during the Christmas season. Would those Christians be as vocal about religious rights if a Pagan or Wiccan group wanted to create a holy display, or if a Muslim group wanted to hold a celibration in the park? How about a group of Satanists who wanted to conduct a satanic ritual in a public park? I will agree that we Atheists sometimes push the issue a little strongly, but if Christians want the respect of Atheists, they should learn to respect those who have other beliefs, and those who have none.

Burden of Destiny:

Christians can get away with EVERYTHING--including mass murder--all they have to do is "accept Jesus into their lives" before they die, then it's all good and heaven awaits. (Yup--that puts A. Hitler in heaven too! You will be pleased to meet him no?) Nobody is suggesting that 'we came from nothing', some think it was Thor, Yahweh, Alah or any number of other random gods. One thing for certain SOMETHING must have created those gods too so your left with an infinite series of gods one creating the next.

Others see that nature explains it all, life came from non-life and there is no need for fairytails anymore.

Rob-38....., stated

"there are VASTLY more religious nutjobs like yourself"

Rob, I'll pray for your salvation. It is obvious to me that you are a very troubled person, one who feels the need to resort to insults in order to support an argument. I ask a question and speculate on a possible reason, my post is collapsed and you jump on me like I'd made a personal attack on you. Lighten up and have a nice day. God loves you anyway.

When you believe in something but have no proof, your judgement becomes suspect. Scientists are cynics who, if they see no proof, become non-believers, and they say so. Now, since you have no proof, you get angry, because you feel threatened--that you'll have been made a fool by the non-believers, that you've lost all your senses and you're an idiot. Back in the dark ages, you could avenge such insults with torture and witch-burning.

Eventually, the Age of Enlightenment dawned, and it was at this time when reason trumped religion, and our secular nation was born with freedom of speech and separation of church and state.

But old habits die hard, especially with the superstitious. The bible is said to be sacred, so evangelicals seized on that concept and used psychological fear: "You will burn in hell for eternity if you refuse to believe!" The politicians then sold their souls for votes, which has perpetuated the myth, so now we have a 21st century society teeming with scientific know-how, yet many of our elected leaders deny evolution and pray for rain.

Religion is all about power, and it's the ultimate pyramid scheme for evangelists and politicians. They want you in on their pyramid so they can gain more power. They convince you it's for your own good, and, if ignorance is bliss, they will succeed. But what they fear is that you will eat from the tree of knowledge (i.e., you will learn how to use empirical evidence to determine the truth), and you will see through their scam.

Why do children sob and cry when they discover there is no Santa Claus? Do they really love him, or is it the realization that someone they loved and trusted (their parents) lied to them? Oh well, enjoy your family and gifts, and have a Happy Holiday Season--it's the Yuletide tradition!

What the hell is a Xian? Are we in China now?

WTF-Really

Milo - Not in an actual foxhole but I'm an Atheist and currently fighting in Afghanistan and have never once wanted to cry out for god

Hmmmm, find your *** in a fire fight, wounded and with a strong will to live then make that statement again. By the way I'm agnostic. The atheists I have known in battle **** their pants like the rest of us and hit the 360 to God.

Actually religion is the worst thing that has ever happened to faith and belief. "Religion" separates people. Its a manmade construct based on the ideaolgy that what was suppossed to be simple and straightfoward is really all about "my interpretation of what were suppossed to do is different and better than yours" Also, religion became a tool of those in power to control the masses, which was never suppossed to be, belief and faith are a deeply personal thing that should involve you and you only, you can no more force someone to truly believe something they dont want to than you can force the sun to rise and set.

True inner peace cannot be achieved through a lie. If you have true inner peace, then you are doing what is right for you. Dont force it on someone else. They need to find their own peace. And its TRUE inner peace, theres a difference between bein happy bout something or content , than peace within yourself.

Life is too short to argue about semantics. Who's version of God, Allah, Jehovah, Jesus, Boethia, Poesidon, Science, Unicorns, IPhones, or Ronald Reagan is better? Does it really matter in the grand scheme of life? Do what brings you TRUE peace and we all win in the end.

This is so tiresome - I'm not sure why I'm bothering, but here goes anyway:

Okay .... atheists (which I am) and religious folk alike.

READ HISTORY PLEASE!

Christmas (or the tradition thereof), has a long history that predates Christianity. It's a pagan ritual in honor of the solstice. It isn't about "Christ" anymore than Christmas Trees are about Christianity. All of it, the trees ... December 25th ... ALL of it is traceable to its pre-Christian (PAGAN) traditions.

So, Atheists, stop rallying against the holiday. Quit fighting about what to call it and other childish nonsense. It just makes the rest of us secularists look bad when you're bickering over a "Christmas" Tree or "Holiday" tree.

And Christians, for god's sake, put your bible down and read a history book for once. This isn't rocket science ... it's incredibly easy to find out where the traditions of Christmas came from and why it's celebrated when it is. Here's a hint, Jesus wasn't born on the 25th of December and it's not in the bible. Here's another hint: "Saturnalia" ... Look it up.

Hi Chad, sorry I'm picking on you, but your post makes some really bad assumptions about Christians that I feel I need to clear up. I HAVE read a history book (several, actually), and am aware that several different traditions melded together to form the AMERICAN TRADITIONAL Christmas -- so what??? You're right, the Bible DOESN'T tell us the day of Jesus' birth, only that he was, in fact, BORN, so we picked a day to celebrate his birth. And so MAYBE the Romans (who after all started your referenced Saturnalia) who became Catholic decided to use a well-known holiday as the birth of Christ; again I say SO WHAT??? Christmas predates Christianity??? I don't think so.

But you are right about one thing, this ridiculous "War on Christmas" crap that gets stirred up every year by people on both sides trying to prove something. There are PLENTY of atheists who celebrate Christmas, seeing it as a time to enjoy their family and friends, no religious sentimentality required. THEY don't need atheist billboards anymore than I need a public nativity scene. As long as my CHURCH is allowed to put one out on their lawn, that's fine. I don't CARE if City Hall puts out a nativity scene or a Christmas tree or whatever, and I don't know why anyone else would really care, either. They could not put out anything and that would also be fine. And if a dept. store tells their employees to say "Happy Holidays," so what? There's nothing terribly wrong with wishing someone a "Happy" whatever - just don't expect ME to say it, I'm a "Merry Christmas" kind of gal. Live & let live, okay?

Hi Chad, sorry I'm picking on you, but your post makes some really bad assumptions about Christians that I feel I need to clear up. I HAVE read a history book (several, actually), and am aware that several different traditions melded together to form the AMERICAN TRADITIONAL Christmas -- so what??? You're right, the Bible DOESN'T tell us the day of Jesus' birth, only that he was, in fact, BORN, so we picked a day to celebrate his birth. And so MAYBE the Romans (who after all started your referenced Saturnalia) who became Catholic decided to use a well-known holiday as the birth of Christ; again I say SO WHAT???

T Bour

I don't understand your confusion? My point here was to my fellow atheists ... I was saying that when they attack "Christ"mas ... they look pretty foolish considering its roots/foundation. The winter solstice was a Pagan tradition in which the Romans converted into a Christian holiday to secure popularity as they continued the conversion into the new faith. Fast-forward to today, and it's a secular holiday celebrated by multiple faiths and is much more about family and friends than it is about religion.

Christmas predates Christianity??? I don't think so.

Uhhh ... yes ... it does. From your very admission, the bible says nothing of the date for Christ's birth. In fact, if you would like to get technical, I could quote multiple references in the bible that shows the topic of Jesus' birth (virgin or otherwise) to be highly contradictory. Your own book can't get its stories straight ... I wonder why?

But you are right about one thing, this ridiculous "War on Christmas" crap that gets stirred up every year by people on both sides trying to prove something. There are PLENTY of atheists who celebrate Christmas, seeing it as a time to enjoy their family and friends, no religious sentimentality required. THEY don't need atheist billboards anymore than I need a public nativity scene. As long as my CHURCH is allowed to put one out on their lawn, that's fine. I don't CARE if City Hall puts out a nativity scene or a Christmas tree or whatever, and I don't know why anyone else would really care, either. They could not put out anything and that would also be fine. And if a dept. store tells their employees to say "Happy Holidays," so what? There's nothing terribly wrong with wishing someone a "Happy" whatever - just don't expect ME to say it, I'm a "Merry Christmas" kind of gal. Live & let live, okay?

No argument here. Again, I think you should have singled out a different post. I can't stand all this crap about the war on Christmas. I love Christmas ... It's one of my favorite times of year (and I'm as secular as they come). I wonder if my fellow atheists would lobby to change the name of the planets in our solar system? They are all named for gods after all.

There's bigger fish to fry ... much bigger problems going on for secularists to fight. Defacing a nativity scene only makes you look like a virgin living in your grandma's basement.

@

MireV03Restored.... the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence....

someone has been watching the :D ... Boondocks- Samuel L Jackson quote as char. Gin Rummy... "the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence, ...there are known knowns and there are known unknowns but then there are also unknowns unknonws things that we don't know that we don't know...."

@Milo - where the hell do you get that all atheists will be screaming for god at their end times? You know, you are not the first person to state this and all I can think of is the fact that the only way you people know this is because you are probably slughtering the poor individual and bludgeoning them to death until they accept jeebus creepers as their lord and savior. If it weren't for religion, the world could have acheived world peace by now. Just saying.

As the Defender of Logic, I have to agree with the Wizard of Wisdom.

I am an atheist too but I really feel absolutely NO urge to tell you that you can't worship and celebrate the deity of your choice on your religious holiday. I bear in mind that St. Nicholas was not just a Christian saint who believed in the birth of Jesus, he used that belief to inspire him to give gifts to all of the orphans and the poor in his village. AND YES HE DID EXIST!!!! Many great men since his time have replicated his actions of love of warmth during this time of the season. Imagine that.

Christmas as we know it would be VERY different if St. Nick did NOT exist and I'm not so sure we would like the gift-free, lack of generosity, lack of "spirit", lack of decorations except the atheist signs quoting other atheists, that would come with this Winter Solstice pagan holiday the other atheists praise so much. I actually prefer Christmas thank you, with the decorated tree with the star on top, with the myth of "Santa Claus" based upon the generous life of a Christian saint philanthropist.

I'm an atheist, but I say: take your Winter Solstice and shove it. I'll take Christmas any day!

Most atheists are the strongest defenders of the freedom of religion but we will not tolerate government representation of any religion. Christians use Christmas as a platform for their beliefs from the government and it needs to stop.

What sadness? You mean the christians who are sad they have to share "their" holiday with others?

Christians are usually happy to share their faith with others.

The silliness of atheists is similar to the silliness of Santa. It's easy enough to ignore both most of the time. The rest of the time I just tell myself that they don't realize how rude they are and I move on.

What's silly about common sense and reason?

What's silly about common sense and reason?

Nothing. Silly is in thinking that if you demonstrate the folly of others that somehow makes you a better human. Silly is in not realizing that religion isn't about the past or the rituals - it is about how it can make you a better person today.

Look at it this way: science develops the best model it can to explain the universe, and constantly revises that model as we learn more. The goal is to understand the physical universe. When you use a ball-and-stick model to represent a molecule you don't really believe that there is a real 'stick' connecting the atoms. Instead you understand it to be a model. Similarly, we use many other models to represent physical structures, processes and data spaces, and though we may act as if those models are an accurate representation, we know deep inside that they aren't really, but we need the model to wrap our heads around the concepts.

Faith is about developing a moral model. Science is to the physical universe space as faith is to personal moral space. It isn't about the model (stories in the Bible) - it is about how you use that model to understand and improve your own moral space.

Silly is not seeing what is so useful about faith. Silly is assuming that faith has no use in today's world.

Faith means you don't know what the hell you are talking about...Do think for yourself...Someday.

Please, Don't share with me your ignorance. (GOD = SANTA)

Faith is deliberately trusting that a thing is right when you cannot demonstrate it on the spot. Much like you trust that physicists aren't full of crap when they explain quantum mechanics. Unless you happen to be in the upper echelons of that field you can't demonstrate the truth of any of it directly. Instead, you trust that a chain of scientists have done proper science and checked each other for accuracy. You have faith that quantum mechanics is a proper model for that facet of the physical world. I have faith that the tenets of my religion are a proper model for my internal moral universe. It is the moral model I use to consciously become a better person.

I realize that not all people of faith treat religion that way, but then I also know that not all scientists think of their models as only models either. I can't apologize for the actions of others whom I cannot influence or control, but if I could I would certainly apologize for the willful ignorance of many of the people who claim the same god I do. They miss the point much as you do.

Lastly, God =/= Santa. I stated that Santa = silly. Don't misrepresent what I say please. I believe that I think for myself just fine.

Merry Christmas.

Baja

I'll take a socially moral person over a Christian elitist like you anytime.

I can see how my post at 261.2 could be seen as elitist. I apologize for my inappropriately broad wording. The atheists I refer to in that post are not those that best represent atheism. I meant that to refer to those who are blind to the fact that they are exhibiting the same behaviors that they decry in people of faith. Most atheists I have met are intelligent and not purposely divisive. Please excuse my poor choice of words. [no sarcasm]

Just precious, Baja...

So the silliness of atheism is in 'thinking that if you demonstrate the folly of others that somehow makes you a better human.'

But one sentence later, it's acceptable for you to then say that RELIGION is "about how it can make you a better person today. "

Fuzzy logic if ever I saw it. So blindly following an unsubstantiated myth can make you a better person, but following science is silly, and in your mind, will not make you a better person?

Translation: "Baaaaa baaaaa baa baaaaaa baaa baa baaaaaaaa baaaaaaa?"

TommyB-4236974

Religions are not pulled out of thin air. They existed long ago as long as time existed

As long as time existed? I didn't know the dinosaurs had a GOD? Who did they worship? Did they also go to church?

God is an invention of man to explain something they don't understand or are incapable of understanding.

There is a difference between atheists and anti-theists.

Atheists don't believe in God (however you name Him) whereas anti-theists want others not to believe and appear to have an agenda as such.

To the true atheists, although I am not one, I accept your view and appreciate you quietly going about your business, perhaps snickering at us theists. To the anti-theists, please don't force your views on others. Be the atheists you claim to be and just ignore our "foolish" beliefs or how we celebrate. Unless we come to your door to proselytize you, then you can slam it in our face.

Baha,

As an atheist, I just want to say how much I appreciate your post. If only all Christians were as logical and common-sense as you, internalizing their moral beliefs rather than externalizing them as a club, we would all live in a calmer, kinder place.

gingko...also agree with Baja's neutral position and yours as well, except that you make the comment "externalizing them as a club" referring to theists. I suggest you google 'atheist clubs".

I can't think of a characteristic of theist that doesn't also apply to atheist. Both sides have their lovers and their haters. I think it's called 'being human'.

hs321

Fair comment; all groups exhibit "we vs them" tendencies, and atheists are no different from theists in that respect.

I guess what I was trying to express was appreciation of a personal internal moral code rather than an external moralistic code.

My overreaction probably comes from trying for decades to fit into the Christian mold, really trying to absorb that point of view, but now, happily freed for many years from that limiting, and limited, perspective, I find few theists willing to at least listen, or attempt to understand, the non-theist perspective.

"As an atheist, I just want to say how much I appreciate your post. If only all Christians were as logical and common-sense as you, internalizing their moral beliefs rather than externalizing them as a club, we would all live in a calmer, kinder place."

Ginko, I don't give a crap what you think about me. I think even less about what you would consider to be a "calmer, kinder place."

"Go ye into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you." --Jesus Christ

I care what He thinks about me.

"Ye are the salt of the earth. If the salt loses its flavor, wherewith shall ye make it salty again? It is useless, even for the dunghill. It is thrown out to be trampled underfoot. Have salt in yourselves then, and be at peace with one another."

"One another" in this parable, is fellow Christians. We are the salt of the earth that give flavor to the world to God because we preach against sin. Without our preaching against sin, this sinful world would no longer have any flavor to God and it (and everyone in it, including ourselves) would be destroyed. We will continue to preach against sin (have salt in ourselves) and be at peace with fellow Christians, even if we do not receive peace from the wicked (those who want a free pass to continue in their sins without being rebuked).

"Think not that I have come to bring peace to the world. Not peace, no, but division. From now on a family of five shall be divided three against two and two against three."

It isn't our job to make your world a nice, calmer, kinder place as you define these things. It is our job to preach the gospel, whether you want to hear it or not. What violence you do about that is your business, and your judgment, not mine.

Jesus Christ was crucified for doing this. He said "Follow me, so I do. He promised me eternal life for doing so. I trust His promise. I believe that He can and will make good on it.

Who do you think YOU are? What do you have to offer me for betraying my Lord and following you? What makes you think that I would trust you to so much as hold a flashlight for me, much less trust you to keep a promise or trust you with my life or my soul?

You ask too much. You demand far too much. I'm just doing what I was told to do.

You're never going to make me feel guilty about that. All of your mockery a million-fold cannot ever make me feel any shame about this.

If we're going to talk about wasting one's time, you're the one who's doing it.

I have a few things but I will just keep it as brief as I can.

If you are one of the atheists then you should have NO problem working on December 25th or whatever day Christmas falls on. (ie: falls on a Saturday or a Sunday as a just in case) That would mean the people that DO believe can have the day off to spend with their "loved ones" and you can work for them since you don't believe.. sound fair..? It does to me.... Or do you want that day off even though you don't believe..??? fair question I think but you don't have to answer.

My second comment... I have known two people that where atheists and I promise you each one did say God please help me when they where in the Hospital and on their death bed.

All I have to say as to keep it from become a long read. So collapse my comment's and have a great day and a Happy New Year if you even believe in having a Happy New Year.??? After all.. that is just a "made up" day also is it not, if you think about it?

Sorry for my grammar and spelling but My Mom just passed away and I KNOW she is now in Heaven with my Father right now.!

Well, actually as an agnostic, I don't like working on December 25th and enjoy the feasting and presents and all that, but if you christians think that day and the holiday that happens to land on it belongs to you just because it has your messiah in the name... well.. I suppose perhaps the government should just rename it to Winter Day or something of the like, so that we need not worry that your religion is being endorsed by the government... which we all know would be against the Constitution... Also, as an added benefit, no one would feel excluded from Winter Day... all Americans, regardless of religious belief (or lack thereof) could enjoy the holiday without judgmental selfish christians claiming ownership of the day.. See? Everyone wins!

Personally, I give the "christ" in christmas about as much credence as I give for the "yorkshire" in yorkshire pudding.. I like to partake of it, but I honestly don't give a flying F about the name of it, where it came from, or why it is called that.

I think Baja5B worded his stances and responses quite eloquently and beautifully. Well done sir.

I am a southern Baptist, my husband is an atheist. I know how unlikely our marriage is to succeed, but its just the way the cookie crumbled for us. We do keep to a strict rule though, no 'harping' about my beliefs and no belittling about how 'superior' his are to mine. Respect has to come from both ways and that's why atheists think Christians are condescending and Christians think atheists are rude. No side has any respect for the other. Look, I know he has his beliefs and no amount of soapbox preaching from me is going to change it. Just like wise, he knows Im always going to pray and believe God is there to listen to me, so I dont want to hear how stupid I look 'talking' to myself from him. We have our lines drawn, but respect pushing past them. I can go to church to be around like-minded.

Nobody would ever know an Atheist if it was not for religious people "sharing" their beliefs in public displays. Atheists have no reason to say "I don't believe" until a religious person brings their god into the conversation, or advertises their beliefs in public with visual displays. An Atheist has no reason to say there is no god, until someone else preaches their religious views in some way.

If you open the door and invite someone in, don't be surprised when they enter.

Thank you all for an interesting evening read. If I may make an observation, most people react negatively when faced with an alternative line of thought if their own belief system (for lack of a better term) is not perfectly secure. If an individual is convinced his or her line of thinking is truly correct, someone elses arguements offer no threat. Frankly, no two people share the exact line of thought on ANYTHING! Anyone who says they follow exactly a certain dogma, myth, faith, whatever is either a fool or too lazy to think for themselves. However we came to exist, we developed the ability to think for ourselves, to accept or refuse on our own terms. To argue over who is wrong or right misses the point. Politically, the same situation exists. Religion, gun rights, animal activists, environmentalists, communism, capitalism - need I continue? Feel free to discuss, indeed to argue, cajole or fight. I prefer to just watch.

Wow!! The atheists went wild collapsing messages that did not agree with their point of view in the thread that precededthis one, until they finally collapsed the entire thread. Just goes to show what hypocrites they are. They scream and holler that the Constitution of the United States gives them the right to censor religion. Then they fail to see that the same Constitution gives those who disagree with them the right to express their opinion. What a bunch of hypocrites the atheists are.

Did you write all this just for me? There must be a GOD.

That would mean the people that DO believe can have the day off to spend with their "loved ones" and you can work for them since you don't believe.. sound fair..? It does to me.... Or do you want that day off even though you don't believe..??? fair question I think but you don't have to answer.

I have worked more holidays than you can shake a bible at. Where did it get me no where. Now maybe I displease the do nothing god, by working those days to support myself and my family.

The way I figure it. If that sorry good for nothing, I talk a bunch B.S god would get down here and do some thing. We could all live a little better life. But no, we gotta play thought this stupid azz cheap story plot. Written by, no other than the supreme being himself. Big surprise! Here is what I have to say to this P.O.S god.

If you love your G.D creation so much get off your lazy azz, show some empathy and sympathy, for those lesser beings. I do, WTF is your problem? I would not worship a god such as your self, well even if you told me to (big surprise I only have two choices Burn in Hell or worship this F tard). I would rather burn in HELL!

My second comment... I have known two people that where atheists and I promise you each one did say God please help me when they where in the Hospital and on their death bed.

Well you don't know me pal. I didn't pray to any god before or after, I was run over by one of his fine creations. Who really didn't seem to give flying F that he run me down.

I didn't pray to any god when one of his fine creations pointed a 12 gauge at my head, while he was drunk and methed up over a hooker. That's what I get for trying to consolethe P.O.S. At least he was nice enough to commit suicide.

I didn't pray to any god when a drunk business owner pointed a 357 at my head over a dirty diaper dropped in his parking lot by mistake.

I didn't pray to any god when I fell off a god fearing business man's junk scaffolding and busted my Gaul bladder along with a few ribs, and needed emergency surgery to save my heathen life. By the way he had no insurance and refused to acknowledge I was on his job, when it happened.

Finally I didn't pray to any god when I just recently had to have a heart stint put in. And I don't plan on praying any time soon.

I will gladly burn in hell if the best god you people have to offer is, don't worry about how much suffering and pain you have to endure here on earth, you will get your reward in heaven. You can keep it to your self.

Mom just passed away

Sorry about that buddy. Mine died 30 years ago when I was at the ripe old age of 14. And I have been on my own ever since. Thank you lord.

What a bunch of hypocrites the atheists are.

A quick scan of your post proves you don't know as much as you think you do Oldman. Just becauseyour old does not mean your wise.

The ancient Mayans could not see into the future. If they could have seen the future they would have known that they could go to Walmart in December 2012 and buy a calendar for 2013.

If you were as wise as you think you are. You would know that the Mayans made planetary predictions, that NASA could only confirm a few years before they happened. Never mind the fact the Mayans made them over a thousand years before NASA and you existed. Without todays technology.

Now I will take my tinfoil hat off so that I can see into the future.... At midnight on December 21st, 2012 I see something happening... I see the beginning of December 22nd, 2012 happening. Now I will put my tinfoil hat back on so the aliens can no longer send visions of the future into my mind!

I think you need to put your tinfoil hat back on. And be sure to buy your aluminium foil at Walmart. Wise Oldman.

I think the hostility many have towards Christians is based on the harm Christians have done by using the violent power of the state to force their values upon others at gunpoint. By this I am referring to the War-on-Drugs including alcohol, laws against gambling, prostitution, gay marriage etc.

It is Christians who support every effort of censorship I have ever heard of.

You evangelicals have much to learn from the Amish. If a member of the Amish gets his beard cut off it makes national news but any attack on evangelicals short of burning a church down is too common to inspire interest. The Amish have few enemies because they do not harm others. Evangelicals have more enemies than they can count because they harm so many.

Are these atheists or misotheists?

ah, to live in a country where we all can believe what we want. I wish i did...oh wait i do....WOOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOO.

I'm looking at the posts, reading the comments and I cannot help but notice one thing: There's no difference. One belief system saying the other is wrong, childish diatribes. Proof once more that there is no love, respect or responsibility no matter what you believe. Ignorant children fighting for the thought that only they can know what is right, that only they can be better and that they are the only ones that can win. Both have lost and are lost, until you learn that in being human the differnces must be embraced, when you try to drown out ones hopes and dreams you kill the person, regardless of what or who they believe in.

I have no problem with Atheists or other Non Believers. I feel sorry for them. They don't know what they are missing. My husband is Military, and a Catholic. Regardless of a persons faith (or lack thereof) there are no atheists in battle. When you're trading fire against the enemy, or lying on your back while the medic is trying to save your life, You PRAY.

On that note..MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!!!

When you're trading fire against the enemy, or lying on your back while the medic is trying to save your life, You PRAY.

I didn't. ....and that the tired old cliche of 'no atheists in foxholes' was likely invented by a person that has never met an atheist in a foxhole.

As for this whole atheist vs Christian thing.... so long as public displays of XYZ religion is allowed and tolerated, so too should be those of non-theists and other religions as well. Have a problem with that? Well, let me take a page from the religionist and tell you "too bad, gtfo of this nation of constitutionally established secularism." lol, couldn't help it.

As for this whole "Happy Holidays" thing - the term includes Christmas, for your information. So when someone says Happy Holidays, they are in effect wishing you a Merry Christmas if you are a Christian, or a Happy Yule if you are an Asatruar lol, or whatever. It is an all inclusive term.

"Merry Christmas" on the other hand, is an exclusive term - it only refers to Christians. If I know someone is a Christian, I will say Merry Christmas, but if I do not know - I will say Happy Holidays, because that is the right thing to do since my particular Holiday, in this great nation of tolerance and religious freedom, takes no precedence over someone else's holiday, and it's only respectful to acknowledge that by using an all-inclusive term.

I don't see a war on Christmas, what I see is a war on the very American ideal of religious equality and freedom. "Happy Holidays" includes everyone. "Merry Christmas" excludes everyone except Christians. Which, would you venture to say, is truly the more Christ-like thing to say?

a couple of posts on the "there are no atheists in foxholes" theme. actually, there are, and an organization--Atheists in Foxholes.

Janine - That no atheist in a foxhole stuff is just plain wrong. I've never prayed to or much less thought about god while on deployment.

WTF-Really Janine - That no atheist in a foxhole stuff is just plain wrong. I've never prayed to or much less thought about god while on deployment.

Hmmmm, you must be in the rear with the gear. Like Remington raider and chair borne ranger type. Gotta love you office soliders of the month, quarter, year..

Hmmmm, you must be in the rear with the gear. Like Remington raider and chair borne ranger type. Gotta love you office soliders of the month, quarter, year..

Yeah, that must be it. There is no way that your though-terminating cliche could be wrong. It's impossible, since it's in the Bible. But wait it's not... but my pastor says it, and other religious people say it a lot.... so it must be true. There is no way that so many biased people could be completely wrong about people that they know nothing about.

/s/

Milo, you must be one of those people who delude themselves into to thinking that a string of explitives (four letter words) containing the modifying words Jesus and Christ and God to actually be prayers.

They shouldn't be called Athiests. They should be called Hedonists which is what they really are. They want to believe there is nothing other than the here and now so they can feel free to do whatever and to whomever they want without having to think about dealing with consequences.

The same kind of liberal thinking that is behind the push to denigrate consequences for anything. No dealing with illegals, fewer and fewer consequences and more rights for criminals, more and more groups of pedifiles supporting each other, less marriage because the government mandates it with their welfare system.

If these loons all have thier way we wil end up back in the jungle with total anarchy.

Keep religion out of christmas and everything will be just fine. Christmas is a hodge podge of religions tossed together anyway, and christians try to claim it.

Keep it about Santa and trees and everyone should be happy.

They shouldn't be called Athiests. They should be called Hedonists which is what they really are. They want to believe there is nothing other than the here and now so they can feel free to do whatever and to whomever they want without having to think about dealing with consequences.

Wrong. Atheists are capable of doing what is right without the threat of eternal damnation to scare us into doing them.

Who has the higher morals? One who does what is right because it is right, or the one who does what is right out of fear of retribution?

So you believe in right in wrong though? Who governs this? Who distills morality into us to begin with? Do you think this is instinct? Do you think love is an instinct? You know atheists have a big following now because I see how many people get on here and PREACH about how right they are. I see there are big groups, or congregations that get together and talk about how there is no God. You know this sounds kind of hypocritical to me, sounds kind of like those huge churches I grew up around in the south. Everyone was there to show off there new ride instead of learning how to treat their neighbor. You can go into the Bible and pull out all the wrong and contradictory phrases you want. Why? Because we are humans and we are bias. I am a Christian because why not try to live like Jesus. True Christianity is a beautiful thing, it brings communities together, especially in times of disaster. I seen this first hand when a F-4 tornado came through Tuscaloosa. I'm not trying to pull the "this makes Christians better card" but as far as shelters and food for the homeless all I saw were churches helping fellow man. Here is good quote from an awesome scientist

Freeman Dyson-"Only a small fraction of sinners repent and do good things but only a small fraction of good people are led by their religion to do bad things."^[

Who distills morality into us to begin with?

My parents instilled the concept of right and wrong for me, without bringing religion into the equation. And love is an emotion, it is not taught unless you are brainwashing someone. We have no control over who we love or do not love. Ever have a pet that loved you? Did you have to teach that pet to love you or did they do it on their own?

So you go off of the same rules your mom and dad put into you when you were a child? Do you still live in the basement? You say that love is an emotion, and yes that is a good diagnosis but what does that really say? Oh I know the smart answer that comes next, "It's a chemical reaction that happens in your brain". Where does this reaction start at? Why do we have a conscious? You know there is an uncontrollable thought process that goes on in your head(right or wrong), and you don't sit there and say, what did my mom and dad tell me? You make some good arguments, but they are the same as mine, can't be proven. So I guess it is just faith. My emotions are filled with love because I try to help others as Jesus did. Shoot me for not being original.

So you go off of the same rules your mom and dad put into you when you were a child?

Yes. And I have added to those base morals with my own life's experiences. Now I'm 47, never been in trouble with the law, help anyone I can if I can and all without the threat of eternal damnation if I don't and without any kind of faith other than faith in myself.

Oh I know the smart answer that comes next, "It's a chemical reaction that happens in your brain"

That is the smart answer because it is a scientifically proven fact. Trying to imply it's because of some unprovable deity is nothing more than blind faith. I base my life on reality. WWJD is nothing more than a crutch for those that can't think for themselves or determine right from wrong without outside instruction.

You are acting as if your opinions are facts. I would say I am probably more qualified to say if that is "scientifically proven". Science does nothing but express what is ALREADY happening, fit it with a mathematical equation, if it is linear find the slope and put your name on it, and if it is not linear, come up with a fudge factor to make it fit. If it has a lot of variables use differential equations..., I have a BS in physics and currently in grad school, so I can play the "who knows science" game all you want. Not trying to sound arrogant, but I have worked hard. Last time I checked serotonin is made up of a benzene ring, few nitrogens and a hydroxyl. Can you tell me how you get love from that? Other than filling receptors, that are made from the same principal as a clump of carbons and nitrogens. I can tell you for a FACT that scientist are not even close to figuring out why the chemical is produced in the first place. So do you think it is this is a huge coincidence that all of these elements came together and created personality and the concept of right and wrong? I am not trying to sound like an ass, which I probably am but Christianity is not just for the weak people. I don't go to church, but I try to live my life as Jesus did and if you have a problem with that, as far as calling people simple minded and not realistic, then you just sound self absorbed to me. But I do commend you for helping people, and that feeling when you get after you do, that is nothing more than a simple chemical reaction. And another thing, stop thinking of all Christians as being hell fire and bremstone, we are evolving too you know.

Beautifully stated. Thank you.

It's a select few militant atheists that give the rest a bad name, similar to many that are religious. It's a shame people can't abide by the "live and let live" policy.

I totally agree. I'm Christian myself and I do admit that we have not had the best reputation in history and down right performed atrocities in the world, but so has other people that were non believers. We should be able to live together as you say and enjoy life, because I know that both sides Christians, Muslims, Jews and atheist both believe that we only get one chance.

I certainly agree. While I will fight when my rights are violated, Christmas seems an almost silly battle at this point. I'm sure there are bigger ones to fight with more at stake and I'm really sure that a skeleton Santa nailed to a cross isn't going to accomplish much. (Although I do find it semi-funny. That's just me.)

On the flipside, the reactions to some of these things are overblown. I've heard someone pitch an absolute tantrum over atheist billboards. Life can be insulting. Even if it's childish and distasteful, an insult is no reason to silence someone else's free speech.

The problem is that christians are continuing to expect special treatment and to be allowed to stomp on our rights. Being nice didn't work so now we have to fight back.

You want to see a Christian squirm. Enlighten them that Jesus was a Jew because Jew's were the persecuted people of the day. So if Jesus came back here now, to America, he would more than likely be Mexican because of how they are being persecuted by "Our Government".

And how exactly are they shoving it down your throat? Are the Vets shoving their holiday down your throat too? How about those Muslims?. Alverant what special treatment are you referring to

@ trust 2112 Umm...I've never met a Christian that didn't know that Christ was Jew, ie "King of the Jews". And why would he come back as a Mexican? What is so special about "Our Government" as you state, that would actually sway God's opinion on how to appear to Humanity? There are many far more oppressed groups in the world than Mexicans. Besides if you follow the word of the Bible, God will appear in a way so that all Mankind will witness Him.

I guarantee you that if Jesus came to America today in a human form and preached the same message there would be an attempt to kill him all over again by those who claim to worship him. And yes, I am a Christian, and no I don't believe that Jesus is God, nor do I worship him, but his message would be very unpopular. For one thing, he would be echoing some of what the atheists on here are saying, at least in the matter of Christmas being a pagan holiday, not his birthday, not in the Bible, not something he told his followers to do, it is a blatant attempt for the merchants to drive people to spend more money they don't have, etc. (I also don't celebrate Christmas) If giving is truly the motive for the holiday season, why don't people just give to their charity of choice? We certainly have a lot of truly needy people these days. Many of Jesus' teachings are swept under the rug for "traditions of men," including that favorite "traditional" teaching brought up by people who don't want to believe that God could exist, eternal damnation in hellfire. Not one of Jesus' teachings, not a Bible teaching! I could see why people thinking God was really like that would have a hard time believing in him! For those wondering why anyone would want to worship God if there was no threat of hellfire, why not just try love and gratitude for life? Love and life, the two greatest gifts, two big reasons I do believe in God.

I guarantee you that if Jesus came to America today in a human form and preached the same message there would be an attempt to kill him all over again by those who claim to worship him.

You know, I've often thought the same thing. Jesus, in the modern era, would be considered a hippie by most measures. You know, peace, love, pacifism, resistance to political and social control of the individual, a communal lifestyle, compassion, never showering, etc. Of course there are plenty of differences too like free love and mind altering drugs. But if we saw Jesus today, we'd call him a stinking hippie and tell him to get a job.

I guess the aethiests are finally fed up with the constant harrasment that religionists have been doing for the past 1500 years. As soon as someone puts it back at them they cry foul. They just can't stand the daylight of the truth. If there were actually proof that we are to worship an invisible man, there would be no aethiests. The problem is, there is no grain of evidence that points to that direction yet we have preachers, televangilists, and other salespeople trying to persuade us that we need their invisible friend, and please send your checks.

wlee,

Are you serious? Take off the blinders, please!

Ever hear of The Pledge of Allegiance? or US currency for that matter? Both require you to declare your faith in God, regardless of your religious beliefs or lack thereof. And before you say that's the way it's always been (an empty argument in itself), neither the Pledge or our money had any reference to God when they were created. These references were added in the 1950s. There was no opposition then because anyone who spoke their mind was labelled a Communist.

Also, ever hear of Westboro Baptist Church? Ever hear of Jehovah's Witnesses? Abortion clinic murders? Must I continue?

Christianity isnt a religion,its the Truth.No religion has a god that came down to earth and had every evil thing,past,present,future,laid down on Him.U dont have 2 be perfect or never sin 4 Christianity like other religions,Christianity accepts u the way u r if u only confess your sins and believe,now how could that be a lie?i dont think some1 who wz lying about himself being the Son of God would die 4 his lies,He would rather die 4 Truth

So who exactly told "Freedom from Religion" that they had to join a religion? Just don't go to church and look the other way if something bothers you.

If one of those door to door religions shows up at your house just give them crap like I do and they usually won't come back.

I am another one who believes that if Jesus came to modern day America as a man he would likely be killed or seriously opposed at minimum. And I believe the church would be one of the largest forces opposing him, just as the religious leaders opposed him before. He came to a very poor couple and began his ministry with relatively unknown people in a rather rural area. He was not swayed politically-in fact, his disciples covered the entire spectrum from extremely conservative to extremely liberal. (One was a zealot, who was part of a group that advocated the military overthrow of Rome and another was a tax collector, who was part of a group that directly profited monetarily from Rome.) He hung around with the sinners, whom he healed and forgave; and he preached fiery condemnation against the religious leaders for their hypocrisy. He never owned anything in his life except perhaps his carpenter's shop; and, once his ministry began, all he owned was the clothes on his back. Does that sound like your typical church leader? His followers thought he was going to lead a military coup and free them from Rome, but instead he had come to give his life as a sacrifice, the ultimate sacrifice that would fulfil the requirement for the forgiveness of all people on earth.

In today's world, he would likely hang out with all those who are despised by the church: gays, "liberals," illegal immigrants, people in bars, etc.-because that's what he did. He did not spend much time with elitist, hypocritical religious people who thought they were righteous. I also think he would have some things to say about social justice and caring for the poor, and I believe he would speak out against the church today. He was an advocate for the downtrodden, and in fact the Bible as a whole has a good bit to say about that-more than a lot of people who claim to follow it would like to acknowledge, I think. However, he would not be able to be influenced or controlled by anyone else outside the church either-he would not go along with anyone's agenda. These things alone would likely be enough to get him in trouble.

You know, that's the thing. If I were going to invent a religion in the first century, I would not have invented one that got me killed. If the Christians had stuck to the previous dying god myths like Tammuz or Mithras or something, the Romans likely would have been okay with that-they seemed to absorb other gods pretty well like they did the Greek gods as long as you maintained the Imperial Cult and worshipped the Emperor. But the Christians refused to worship the Emperor, and they were thrown to the lions or burned at the stake as a result. Also, it is strange that the Main Event in Christianity was attested to by WOMEN. Unfortunately, women weren't given much credibility in the first century. Their testimony was definitely not equal to that of man. Yet, in the New Testament, the first people to see Jesus after he has risen from the dead are women! Kind of odd if you want to invent a new religion-but it certainly does elevate women. Yet a third thing, you'd think if they were inventing a new religion, the writers of the gospels would get together and synchronize their stories exactly, like criminals before telling their tale to the police. However, they differ in places. It's more like when you interview people who saw an event and each one gives you a slightly different version based on a slightly different perspective-like the old psychology experiment where different people see a car accident or other traumatic event and each one gives a slightly different account of what happened-even to the extent of giving different colors for the cars or different ways the people are dressed.

Alverant

The damage Christians have done to this country is to great to contemplate. The driving reason for the American Revolution and the formation of this once great nation was the pursuit of Liberty. In my experience liberty is not a Christian value as so many efforts to destroy it are based on Christian values.

When is the last time you saw a non-christian try to ban a book?

Since I work second shift I can't even get a beer after work because Christians forced laws that make it illegal for anyone in Oklahoma to sell beer after 2:00am. The prohibition of marijuana and the hundreds of thousands serving time in prison catching aids through rape is entirely the fault of christian activism.

You are right. Christians are not nice

Thomas Jefferson was mentioned, which is ironic since he had his own book which held just teachings of Jesus. he was agnostic, basically, might have been atheist, either way he was and is one of the most respected of our forefathers. Jesus taught what the church has long lost: Love, respect and responsibility. If the leaders of the church from the time of Christ had acted as the Christ did in his life, love for all, compassion for all, respect for all, acted with great wisdom then the "church" wouldn't be like shattered glass, with so many different denominations. I don't believe in religion, i just believe in God, there's a big difference.

Man is afraid of the dark and death. Religion is a cure for death.

Truth is a cure for darkness.

Religion is a band-aid for arterial bleeding. It does nothing when you die you still die. whether you believe there is something more when you're dead you're dead

Christians are not nice?

Watch this,

Alex Rodriguez does steroids

Alex plays in the MLB

All MLB players do steroids?

Yeah this does not make sense at all, just like your logic. Man I wish some of you could meet some real Christians instead of going off of the kid that picked on you in high school.

I think we're ready, so bring it on.

Oh, madcitizen, is that a quote from Jesus? Clearly his love shines through you.

Lol. Good luck with that.

Atheists aren't looking for a fight, they're trying to help people get their heads out of their asses.

Ohh! Ohh! Me first! Right here! This will be fun.

Ohmy, We aren't looking for a fight, and most of us don't care what deity you choose to believe or not believe in, we want ALL religion out of government/politics, that's ALL we want!

This country was founded upon the rule of law, not the rule of some flying spaghetti monster, or whatever mythical being the religious believe is peering over their shoulder, and judging their every action.

Hey OhMy99999,

Then what would we do with people like you who are just as...es? Yea, an atheist lacking intellect, how embarrassing by making a paradoxical statement like: "Atheists aren't looking for a fight...," calling people to pull their heads out of their asses and saying you are not looking for a fight? You have the right to be an ass just like believers have the right to believe. Is it really superior of you to think that humans are just the nature byproducts of chemical reaction under the right condition... and now we are creatures of intelligent capable of making incredible machines like the one you are typing on with soul and passion...no chance at all for intelligent design by a Supreme Being? You got that all figure out because you think your head is not in your as...? Say something and see if there is any echo just to make sure.

"If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." -- Matthew 5:39

Children now, Children, go get yourself laid. By the conversation, that's the limit of your all's intellegence. So go out get laid, and relax.

@ madcitizen, My Un-God can beat up your God!

Madcitizen, if you are Christian you need to turn the other cheek, your reward is in heaven not here. Whether you believe or not the point of Christmas is goodwill towards men and it's better to give then receive why would anyone not want to abide by that?

Regardless of what you do or do not beleive- why is it so difficult to simply show some respect to the opposing view? Why try to pick a fight? Why insult another's diety by calling them "flying Spaghetti Monsters"?

Seriously- you want respect, show some - otherwise dont be offended, bothered or upset when the rest of society writes you off and doesnt take you or or views seriously because you feel the need to act like a child and cant have an adult conversation without trying to insult a person or their beliefs.

If you want to be taken seriously, and be treated like an adult - act like one.

Anyone can believe anything they want as far as I'm concerned. I just don't want the Bible/Koran/Talmud taught in school as if it's fact. It can be taught as a work of literature. I'm okay with that though I'm not sure I'd want my kid reading all that violence, abuse and subjugation of the weak, but it is what it is.

I want to be just as free from religion as anything else that I have a right to ignore. I don't want it printed on my money. I don't want in my courthouse and I most assuredly do not want it in my government. Half of our ancestors left their countries to pursue freedom of religion and I know you god-people won't believe this but non-belief (which I hate because it implies I'm being stubborn and refuse to accept something that is fact) is just as viable as belief.

That said, I love Christmas. I love the decorations and the family and the feasting. As a winter solstice celebration it's great. That said, if someone want's to see a baby's face in a burning bush who am I to argue.

Asking a person to grow up and stop believing in fairy tales isn't "fighting."

Bobo - the Flying Spaghetti Monster is just as much a God as any other

Your missing the point - i dont care whether or not you belive in God, nothing or anything in between. The point of my post, which both you and Toasty either missed, or simply are willfully ignorant to is the issue of RESPECT. Whether you agree with a believer or not- what possible reason, beyond simply trying to pick a fight or simply be a forum troll, would you have to insult the beliefs of others?

"Asking a person to grow up and stop believing in fairy tales isn't "fighting." "

yes, it is- by belittling someone's faith and belief by calling them 'fairy tales' is just that. The grown up thing to do, would be to simply respectfully disagree - And that goes for both sides of the arguement. And if the other side simply refuses to be respectful, then why even have that discussion unless you yourself are trying to pick a fight? Clearly neither side will be budging. Its not like by you saying "your belief in fairy tales is childish" is going to sway a beleiver to say "Wow, your right, that was an excellent point and argument." Just as someone quoting scripture wouldnt sway you.

Same goes for calling the Flying Spaghetti monster as much of a God as any other. To you, and many others - that is the case, there is no difference. But to people who beleive - its simply you trying to belittle their god, and there is a big difference.

Based on your comments, i dont expect you to get it, or even be respectful - its just sad to see people so blinded by their hate of those who dont beleive (or not) as they do that they out and out refuse to respect each other.

And MJ - ive never, nor do i know anyone that thought non-beleiver refered to someone to stubborn to accept something, it simply meant that they do not beleive in a divine entity or entities where those called beleivers ,do.

I honestly don't give a damn what anyone believes in or doesn't but if they have the right to push their beliefs to me than I have every right to push my belief that religion is just a politically powerful fairy tail back at them.

If one does not push back against those that press against him, He will find himself on the edge of a cliff with nowhere to go but down.

I am respectful to those that earn it through showing respect themselves. Those who tear down and degrade other for no reason deserve no respect.

if atheists want a fight then they sure as hell will get one.

So how do you want to fight? Fisticuffs only proves what a savage brute you are, and the greatest boxers were not necessarily "Christian". Shooting guns only proves what big armaments you've got, and neither side really wants a charge of murder. Same goes for clubs and knives.

So that leaves us with intellectual fights, done with wits and words, not bullets.

How about this one - you claim that your God is all-knowing and all-powerful, such a deity would know where all the atheists are and be able to smite them, without implicating you in the horrible crimes of battery, mayhem and murder. So pray to your God to smite the unbelievers, and if said unbelievers get smote, you've won. If not, then either your God doesn't exist, or whatever deity does exist is paying no attention to you and isn't really "your god" anyway.

Bobo,

Please do some research. Nobody calls Christianity the "Flying Spaghetti Monsters". The Church of the FSM is another religion (though clearly tongue-in-cheek). It was created to demonstrate to the Kansas(?) Board of Education that if creationism is to be taught in school as an alternative theory to evolution, then Pastafarianism must also be taught, since all of its teachings are based on myths that nobody can prove or disprove.

A note on evolution, though: To call creationism (or Pastafarianism) an alternative to the theory of evolution is just laughable. The evolution theory is a SCIENTIFIC theory, meaning it has undergone vigorous testing based on several hypotheses over thousands of years. The creationism theory uses the word 'theory' differently. 'Theory' in this sense means 'educated guess', which is actually giving it too much credit.

OhMy999999

"Atheists aren't looking for a fight, they're trying to help people get their heads out of their asses."

Maybe atheists should start by helping themselves with that problem.

I'm sorry I don't believe in a God that will save me from the Hell He created. Fear tactics much? Religion is just another way to control the masses and keep them divided. It is much easier to control the peasants when you tell them that sure this life sucks but in the NEXT life you will get a just reward.

Kind of like the Viet Cong, Chinese, Pakistanis (sp) Iraqis, Syrians, and most Muslims. Their lives are so miserable, death looks good. With Muslims, the Koran (sp) states that every Muslim is a missionary. Their job is to convert the world. " If you cannot convert them, kill them". Wooah. Athiests, look out. You are prime targets. At least those who believe in a god already are capable of being converted.

My Grandma Gracie once said ' it is easier to take two steps down the mountain, than one step up".

Translation - it is easier to regress than progress.

BoBo my friend, you have some mighty high expectations of humans.

Can you not read up and down the vine and see proof that "If you want to be taken seriously, and be treated like an adult - act like one" is a concept lost on the majority here?

This vine is almost absolute proof that humans evolved from chimps. Evolved into a chimp with an intellect they sparsely know how to use.

Rob-3829825

"Please do some research. Nobody calls Christianity the "Flying Spaghetti Monsters"."

Actually I think that's Scientology.

madcitizen

You Christians started it. You drew first blood

Everyone who has posted here is an atheist. There are hundreds of past accepted Gods that we don't believe in anymore. And which God are you talking about? Allah? Zeus? God of Abraham?

The reason why Christian love to fight is because it's repeatedly mandated in the Old Testament.

Christians are taught to admire the man who would gut his kid (Abraham and Issaic) to prove his love for God. Religion is a failed attempt to improve society. Most scientific advancement especially medical has been thru the teeth of religion. If it were not for religion we would of had the internet 500 years ago.

Religion retards society!

grandbo... only proves that you know next to nothing about Christians.

You'll find that when you treat Atheists with respect and dignity, they will respond in kind. If you treat them like second-class citizens with fewer rights than christians, we will fight back.

Alverant... LMFAO... Pants on fire. All one has to do is look at these boards..... LOL..

Differnet - You could easily argue that those billboards a mild response to having religion printed on our currency. "In God We Trust"

Defended as a cultural saying it is in fact a clear violation of the establishment clause of the 1st amendment, as God(capital G) is an artifact of religion, a particular brand of currently popular religion - monotheism.

Fooz, I think having God and politics combined is dangerous. But come on... that wasn't my point. Alverant is just wrong. Atheists have radicals that want to thrust their beliefs down other people's throats just like other religions. And anyone who tries to say that atheist are more reasonable is lying to themselves. It's almost funny. Atheisms have become exactly what they complain about.

Differnet - You could easily argue that those billboards a mild response to having religion printed on our currency. "In God We Trust"

You guys talk about wanting Christians to live and let live. That same money has pagan symbols on it, which I don't believe in. However, I'm not going to sue to have THEM removed. Many US monuments and other government things have pagan symbols and symbols used in magick all over them, yet you would likely think I was nuts if I initiated lawsuits to remove all of them. Many religions are represented in this country. I don't agree with many of them, but that's part of living in a country with freedom of religion. You can't expect freedom of religion to apply to you and then not apply it to others. If you want freedom FROM religion then we should get freedom FROM atheism. It's either freedom OF both or freedom FROM both.

I don't follow any organized religion, and as far as the existence of a supreme deity, I withhold any opinion. This is because there is no evidence to support or disprove that human existence was not influenced by some unknown factor. With respect to these facts, I conduct myself as if the existence of a supreme being is inconsequential to human existence. I acknowledge that there have been numerous religious figures throughout history that have presented reasonable moral models to maintain human existence.

As a humanist, I am particularly cognizant that logically I should attempt to respect and tolerate views that may differ from my own, as long as those views don't cause actual harm to others. I also don't label myself as an atheist or other brand because this tends to create a religious like mindset. It's like formalizing a group that doesn't believe in the Easter Bunny. You don't need it.

I take exception to those that somehow interpret the First Amendment to mean that they have some right to not be exposed to others beliefs. The First Amendment does one thing concerning religion, it precludes the government from passing laws that restrict the formation of a religion or the practice of that religion.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of
the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the
Government for a redress of grievances"

Even the notion of a separation of Church and state is only inferred by interpretation, so having the term God on money, or used in any other National publication is left to the wishes of the majority.

In fact, Atheists need to stop believing that they have rights over and above those that practice a particular religion.

I celebrate Christmas because it is a traditional holiday and justify its importance given Jesus, the man's contribution to society.I respect people that are respectful regardless of their religious beliefs. Similarly, I condemn those that judge and discriminate based on their beliefs. It should serve to remind us all how we should treat each other.

This was the most insightful section I have read on here all day. I am a Christian, and the way I preach is by doing good deeds for others and not following it with an amen. Real charity is done by the nameless man.

After all, ignorance is bliss!

If you talk to some atheists I think you will find that overall we are very happy. We try to enjoy life and do as much good for our fellow humans as we can because we know that this is our only chance for a good life. I put up lights and a tree for the Winter Solstice and have a good time with friends and family. I hope your holiday is equally enjoyable. Peace.

These atheists sound like a bunch of unhappy people that don't want anyone else to be happy. Guess what, it is not working, we will enjoy our Christmas.

Research the history of Christmas and then come back to this statement ;)

I do not celebrate Christmas as the birth of Christ, as I am not Christian. However, I do feel that the "spirit of Christmas" (you know, peace, joy, good will towards all) is worth enjoying. Plus, I still believe in Santa.

Research the history of Christmas and then come back to this statement

You mean the history of Atheist regard for Christmas. It sounds like one happy Christmas party.

The Atheist's Guide to Christmas

Research the history of Christmas and then come back to this statement ;)

What does the history have to do with it? The rituals of Christmas may appear to celebrate "history" (loosely defined), but if you think that Christmas is really about the past you not only miss the point, but misunderstand rituals and faith itself. Don't feel bad - most people miss the point, even when we change the focus to , say, the 4th of July (another common ritual in modern US society). It isn't about something that happened 235 years ago (or in the case of Christmas, ~2011 years ago). It is about what is happening in your life right now, and how you choose to apply the message to today, tomorrow, and the rest of your life.

I don't celebrate July 4th because I revere what happened in the past. I celebrate it because I appreciate what I have now. I don't view July 4th through the lens of someone who lived 2.5 centuries ago. I view it through my life in the here and now. For this same reason the history of religion is not relevant to anything I might celebrate today.

Merry Christmas!

History is very relevant to help know ourselves. Otherwise, the following could be thought to be true:

"Jesus is the reason for the season"

It is history that reminds us that this is blatantly false. This potentially betters the holiday season and even the date 12/25 itself by opening up the celebration to all, in whatever manner / method they see fit. Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, and everyone else could all put up a tree, hang lights, eat good food, buy presents, and/or whatever else without feeling like they are being blasphemous to their own religion. Christians could still additionally celebrate the birth of their god (as other religions celebrate their respective holidays) through a more relative celebration to that experience. Wouldn't it be nice to have a holiday everyone could celebrate together instead of segregating ourselves into our different gangs as usual? Just need a new or old name and a little historical education.

Happy _____!

These atheists sound like a bunch of unhappy people that don't want anyone else to be happy. Guess what, it is not working, we will enjoy our Christmas.

Where in any of those signs does it say we want others to be unhappy? Did you suddenly stop believing because you saw those signs? I don't think so. So even if your belief in God leads you to happiness, these signs can't make you unhappy.

But Atheists for the most part found their happiness when they threw off the shackles of religious restrictions, and put up those signs so those with doubts could also shed their superstitious fears and find happiness, just like they did.

BTW, I enjoy the decorations and lights and music and food and exchanging gifts. Even the religious carols and make-believe fantasy aspects are fun, in the same way other forms of fiction is fun.

Chad: Research the history of animal sacrifices. Pagans used to do them. Guess what? Jews used to do them too. All for different reasons. Are you now going to claim exclusively that it was the pagans who thought of it? Just checking.

Yes, I can just sense the joy radiating from you right now.

Atheists do know there history, I mean most of them know more about the Bible than I do. But I don't care because I got the message at a young age and did not care about the persecution my family went through from bad Christians. My mother and father told me I could believe in what ever I want(in the heart of the south), which is dangerous haha. When I was like 8 or 9 I told my Mom I believed in reincarnation, but as I got older and witnessed fake and true Christians I realized this whole "life" thing is not about ME. It's about the person beside me, that achieving happiness through them is the ultimate happiness. So you want to know why Christians force a "fairy tale" down your throat, its because we don't have to spend our whole lives reading through material and history to prove something wrong, we are not living in the past, we are living for the future my friends because true Christians are not in fear of death, they have happily embraced it. I know there will be some clever anecdotes to follow or not, but I mean take it from a free thinker, a physicists that knows when to separate science from religion. Can't prove it, but it takes just as much faith not to believe then to believe.

their* first sentence

it's* sixth sentence

I guess I should at least act like a physicist haha

Love that name Google smart. It is amazing what you can find googling on your search engine.

Google smart is an oxymoron of sorts.

Don't forget Solstice!

As I've stated before, perhaps the government should just smoosh it all together and call it Winter Day... All inclusive, every religion or non-religion or atheist or agnostic can celebrate Winter Day whatever way they see fit. Everybody wins!

Can anyone find anything logically wrong with this little idea?

Why can't Spring have a day? What about Summer and Fall?

Sounds good to me! Get rid of that easter thing and have Spring Day. Just pick a day for Summer Day... And to be honest, I won't complain if, just to make everything fair and happy, call Halloween "Autumn Day" ... People can still do whatever they always did on those holidays before the renaming, but just give'em all nice non-descript non-controversial names...

Sounds communist to me, you should move to North Korea.

And how is removing an element that could be taken as federal endorsement of a religion from a holiday even remotely communistic? I'm looking at from a US Constitution point of view... you know The Constitution right? That document that is the backbone of our country? That piece of paper that states that the government shall not endorse any religion? Separation of Church and State and all that? Ring any bells?

I think you might want to go crawl back into your box, Corky...

War beast, You're another that's fallen for the myth that the US constitution specifically describes any separation of church and state, and that religion must be precluded from government. The only thing the First Amendment does is protects the ability to form and worship religion. There may be an implied separation stemming from historical decisions, but these are specific and are mostly attributable to areas where people were in essence forced to worship a God they may not believe in. These issues dealt with public school prayer, and businesses failing the allow or recognize employee religious practices.

There is some precedence that suggests that disallowing individuals from expressing their religious beliefs in any public setting violates the heart of the first amendment. People have no right to not be exposed to other's beliefs and practices, unless it actually violates a constitutional right.

I have to say that as a non-believer, I am appalled how atheism is quickly becoming so religion like, and similarly intolerant as extreme religious groups. Non-belief is non-belief and does not require a belief system to follow.

If the model works....

Your comment is exactly my point about respect for the beliefs of others. You obviously don't believe in God, but, you also have no respect for the fact that other people do. Your comment is an insult to that belief and faith.

Is it THAT difficult to have respect for the beliefs of others when those beliefs are vastly different from your own??????

Loveblue, respect is a two way street. I find, as a non-believer, that I receive very little respect from Christians here in the bible belt where I live. I see Christian privilege where ever I go but one secular sign brings out the wrath of the less-than-tolerant Christians. Any statement by humanists are considered an insult to Christianity.

Loveblue22, now aren't you disrespecting Khan and Skup's beliefs? They are not allowed to state their point of view? Lighten up, already. They are not at your house destroying your manger scene, are they?

Ron do you work? Get much respect there. Wow I've never gotten a discount at my favorite diner for being a Christian maybe I should mention that next time I eat.

Loveblue, respect is a two way street. I find, as a non-believer, that I receive very little respect from Christians here in the bible belt where I live. I see Christian privilege where ever I go but one secular sign brings out the wrath of the less-than-tolerant Christians. Any statement by humanists are considered an insult to Christianity.

Ron, you don't demonstrate proper behavior by emulating the improper actions of those you oppose. If you want to be demonstrably right you have to be prepared to be the better man. You have to be prepared to let your opponent think they have won, when you know they have not. Otherwise it is simply tit-for-tat, and you demonstrate that you are no better than those you denounce.

baja

How is Ron emulating the improper behavior of those he doesn't agree with[he didn't say he opposed them] by stating the issue? Wow, aren't you the passive-agressive piece of work.

Unfortunately that is my experience here where I live in the Bible Belt as well. I have lived enough other places to know that not everyone or every place is like that, but it is hard not to get truly sick of having my kids picked on if anyone finds out they don't go to the "right" church. It is really hard not to get fed up with every.single.thing in the area focused around church (even homework assignment nights), people asking where you worship before your name, some boycott businesses that don't have obviously Christian owners, and if a person dares to say s/he isn't Christian things can get unpleasant. There is some serious hate displayed by some toward those who don't profess the right beliefs or go to the right church, and sometimes even toward those who are Christian but not the right "flavor" to suit this group or that. To someone who happens to feel that way this is all natural and right, but to anyone else it is a bit tiring.

The local council publicly stated racist views and kept our area from getting new business on more than one occasion, and in the local schools some teachers try to get in Bible verses and religious songs. Religion is on signs all over, churches are on most corners, and people come to the doors telling me I am going to hell and trying to trick me...they even send their teens to trick people as well. There is little attempt to understand any view but the "right" one, and my daughter said last night she doesn't tell new friends she doesn't believe in God because she is afraid they won't speak to her or will make fun of her. She is a child and shouldn't have to live that way in the United States in this century. She respects that many do believe and that many don't in the world, but where is the respect for her and for anyone else who doesn't happen to believe? How different do you think we would be treated if we were Muslim? We have many cultures represented here, but that council even insulted some of them publicly! Once again, if you happen to be Christian (I used to be) it feels all natural as it should be, but otherwise it doesn't feel so great.

To be fair, there are also some who are tolerant and accepting, and I am not painting everyone here with the brush of what I described above. We do have friends and my kids are treated pretty well by some who are their friends, and if leaders who are supposedly very religious didn't feel the need to legislate bedrooms, schools, and women's uteri I really wouldn't care at all about who believed what.

So yes, I understand the anger, but no, I don't choose to fight or put up signs and so forth. If I put up a sign in my yard it would be a big peace sign in the hippy style...lol. I don't care who celebrates what at Christmas and I love the lights and family time, but yes, I believe in separation of church and state.

I'll do my thing and you all do yours and have a wonderful season, but please try to understand that the many people who don't believe in gods in the world aren't missing something even if it feels that way to those who believe, and perhaps you personally respect others, but just as some believers in various faiths have experienced persecution, so have those who don't believe. It's how you live and what you do that define your character and not what building you enter on Sundays or how loudly you pray, how bright the signs are or how many laws you get passed. It's how you live and what you pass on to your children that matters, and that those who don't believe as any one of us happen to have just as much right to live here in peace as anyone else. How about we all just respect each other and perhaps the need for all the anger on any "side" will dissipate?

Ram, ironically (as an atheist), all I could think of to say to this was "Amen!"

Shouldn't the amount of respect a belief or idea gets depend on it usefulness and how well it is founded in evidence?

If I believed the sun revolved around the earth, should I expect that my belief be equally respected by others, including the scientific community? How about if I believed that Elvis was still alive? Why should this be different for religious beliefs?

Ideas and beliefs are not equal so they should not be given equal respect.

Do I tolerate a religious belief, and people's right to practice their faith, sure, but tolerating a bad or wrong idea is a loooooong ways away from giving it respect. Tolerance simply means putting up with something, like putting up with a screaming baby on an airplane, you don't like it but you resist the urge to put it in the overhead compartment. And tolerance sure as hell doesn't mean people get to share their religious views, while I don't get to, because it might offend someone.

Mr. Jones78

I feel that it is proper to respect a person's right to believe what they believe.. however that is absolutely not the same thing as respecting that person's beliefs.

A person can bellow, "YOU MUST RESPECT MY BELIEFS!!!" ... but I say "No.. I'll respect your right to believe the way you do, but to respect the actual belief itself? I'm sorry but no, I don't think so.. I can't respect a steadfast earnest belief in talking snakes and burning shrubbery that gives advice."

Ram, your comment made me very sad because I can picture your community very well; and I know many people like the those you described who believe they are being well-meaning and yet understandibly come across as horribly offensive. So many people can't seem to conceive of the fact that others do not believe as they do and just are not able to put themselves in the shoes of others very well-not that I am trying to excuse it in any way. My daughter went to a Christian school and was friends with a few girls there who were not Christians, and they were miserable because of the heavy-handed attempts of others to convert them all the time. Though my daughter is a Christian, she was furious that the other girls would not even listen to her friends; they would not let them express their opinions or even ask questions. It was a terrible situation for those poor girls; and all of them wound up transferring, though they remained friends with my daughter. I am so sorry your daughter is feeling such pressure. I feel for her.

I won't pretend that I never talk about my beliefs, but it's not something I force on people-only if and when it comes up. I don't like it when people force things on me. I think something is seriously wrong when someone else is feeling like they can't talk about their own beliefs or if they feel like I am ramming something down their throat. It should always be a two-way, give and take discussion where both are free to share ideas-or change the subject if they don't want to discuss it. In that case, I'll move right on to the next topic. If someone were to make it clear to me that religion was off limits for discussion, I would do my best to respect that.

When religious leaders get racist, it REALLY makes me crazy; though I know it happens all too often. I grew up in Mississippi. I agree that many of the outward trappings of Christianity-the signs, the buildings the loud prayers, how many laws are passed, etc, are essentially meaningless; and that what counts is what is in the heart-I'm trying to tell the church that.

*Some* atheists, not all, Fred. I'm sure you don't lump all Christians into the Westboro Baptists, or all Muslims into Al-Qaeda?

"Some" atheists, Matt. My bad. I did that which I often protest against.

How so? There were a fixed number of slots. A random drawing was held to see who got them and Atheists won. We're not the ones demanding special rights, christians are.

Al, what special rights ?

The right to use the full force of our originally secular government to sanction their religion unconstitutionally.

wlee,

The rights to have the slots for the nativity scenes. Read the article. Atheists got less than half of the 21 slots, and the Christians still wanted more, and are whining about the atheists' use of their slots.

From the article (clearly biased in favor of religion to the point of making up figures): "all but a few of the 21 display spaces in the park that have housed Nativity scenes for nearly six decades were claimed for atheist displays", then later "an atheist group got nine spaces, and another group laid claim to nine for "Christmas spirit and solstice decoration."

So 9 is "all but a few" of 21? 12 is more than 9, right?

The group that labelled itself "Christmas Spirit and Solstice" was also a front for an atheist or an atheist group. Between the 2 atheist groups, they got 18 spaces. They are only using 3, and those are "displays" consisting of posters and potted plants. This makes it look very much like their whole purpose was simply to prevent the Nativity scenes and Menorahs.

Christians got 2 slots and Jews got 1. Personally, I think any group that takes slots and then does not bother to use them needs to be banned from now on, as their only purpose seems to be to prevent others from using them. Kind of like the little kid on the playground who when invited to join the game, grabs the ball and runs away with it so no one can play.

The problem, unfortunately, is that the majority of Christians DO try to shove their beliefs down everyone else's throats.

Then you are the exception, LoveBlue2, and for that I respect you. However that is not the case with many Christians who strongly believe that this is a "Christian nation" and that prayer should be allowed in school, etc etc etc. We already have "In God We Trust" on our currency. That's plenty invasive enough. You are absolutley correct though, this is about mutual respect.

Though I do believe in a creator, I have to agree that some Christians do get overly pushy with their religion, trying to get others to believe as they do. One aspect that I have never liked, is the brow beating tactic that some employ to get others to believe as they do. My opinion is, don't try taking my free will away from me, when it's not yours to take. So, when was the last time anyone out here had any atheists knocking at their door with book in hand wanting to talk to them about joining their belief? I haven't, and I don't do it to others myself. Everyone is free to believe what they will, so why try to force your will or belief onto someone else?

It's quite simple just close the door, I'm glad you said some Christians. Believe it or not they have good intentions ,trying to make sure in their believe that you go to heaven. You can simply say that if God exist then it's between him and me and has nothing to do with you.

Eric, many atheists are republicans, and many liberals are good Christians. But whatever, logical thought is obviously not your strong suit.

Eric, I'm sorry you are so angry and unhappy. You probably don't realize that your first attempt at a sentence turned off many readers and that your posts didn't make a lot of sense. If you were trying to represent Christianity and the Christmas spirit in your post I don't think you succeeded...as least I hope not.

Krell67,

You do not have any right to not be exposed to others beliefs. In fact, if you propose that the government should restrict people from celebrating their religious holidays, you are condoning violating the First Amendment.

My heart and head tell me nothing is there. Our laws, happily, allow us both the freedom to believe as we choose.

krell67 I don't believe in organized religion I believe in John Lennon's you may find that hard to understand.

Millions of people murdered on behalf of a fairy tale is something to be bothered about.

Toasty, who has been murdered in the name of x-mas? Sometimes you think to much.

Gary - X-mas is just a single holiday of a huge Fairy Tale who's believers have killed countless people

How many were killed in the name of Christianity? Millions. Hell, I can think of six million jews in the 1940s, for a start.

Toasty McGrath, millions of Jews were not killed in the name of Christianity in the 1940's. If you are referring to Hitler, he was not a Christian. One thing you have to remember, just because someone says they are something does not mean that they are. Many have used religion to get people to follow them when they were not religious at all; take Jim Jones, look how he used the people that followed him.

First off, he was self-admitted, which means he was whether you like it or not. And even if he wasn't (and he most definitely was), the rest of Germany was christian.

Hitler's atrocities had little or nothing to do with his Christianity. The Jews were far more organized and held a great deal of the wealth and power in Europe. He also targeted them due to their race and ethnicity.

If you want to compare, Mao was an athiest, and directly responsible for the deaths of over 10 million people.

Hitler was not a Christian. He did not actually practice any religion. He murdered between 9 and 12 million people in his death camps, because in addition to 6 million Jews, he tried to wipe out Gypsies, and killed Communists, and any Christians who opposed him like Bonhoeffer and many more. He tried to control the churches and to their shame, many fell in line and did not speak out, but others did and suffered greatly for it. (Look up about the Confessing Church in Nazi Germany.) You can find both public quotes from Hitler supporting religion and private ones opposing it, so logic would say his public quotes just mean he was like many other politicians, lying.

Stalin, Mao, and PolPot were all both Communists and atheists and each killed millions.

"Toasty McGrath First off, he was self-admitted, which means he was whether you like it or not. And even if he wasn't (and he most definitely was), the rest of Germany was christian".

This is the kind of responce I would expect from a child, if your mom told you she was big bird (meaning no disrespect to your mother) does that make her big bird? No, Hitler may have said he was a Christian but definatly was not. Many of our politicians say they are Christians and have not steped foot in a church for years, or done anything to let others see that they are Christians. To be honest if you are a Christian you shouldn't have to tell anyone, they should be able to see that you are by the way you behave, so if you are going around killing millions of people out of hate; that clearly shows everyone else that you are not a Christian.

EAE, do some research on Hitler. He praised Christ. In a sick, twisted way, he thought that exterminating the Jews is doing what Christ couldn't finish. Who killed Christ? The Jews, mainly the ones affiliated with the synagogue (rabbis, religious leaders, etc.). They saw Christ as a threat to their religious ways, creating a new religion, a rivalry. Christ was gaining followers from all sorts of crowds, some which these religious leaders would never associate with. It can almost be seen as Christ was 'fighting' the Jews.

Jesus Christ was a Jew, He was not fighting them. It is true that the Saducees of the Temple were involved in Jesus arrest, but not all Jews. The Romans actually crucified Him, not the Jews themselves.

And as I said, what Hitler said publicly was very different from private, recorded by his own secretary, including some pretty strong anti-Christian statements, comparing it with the pox and stating it was best to let it die a natural death. Hitler also promised in writing to live in peace with France, to stop his conquest with Czechoslovakia, and stated that there was no religious persecution in Germany as late as January 1939, well after he had started the persecution of Jews. So I would assume Hitler's public statements were merely political expediencies (lies).

EAE, you are correct that Jesus wasn't fighting them. But Hitler interpreted it that he was. People can interpret anything in different ways. I believe he mentioned Jesus Christ in Mein Kempf, his book.

You'd be right about the reason:

http://www.loudountimes.com/index.php/news/article/skeleton_santa_display_removed_by_citizen123/

On Heflin’s application for inclusion in the courthouse display, he described his entry as “art work of Santa on a cross to depict society’s materialistic obsessions and addictions and how it is killing the peace, love, joy and kindness that is supposed to be prevalent during the holiday season.” Heflin is not part of any organization and sponsored the display himself.

Seems the media would rather ignore that part and use it to get people riled up

The only vocal and almost militant atheists I know are reformed Catholics. Take it as you will, it is the truth. I choose to be an agnostic. I find most religions abhorrent, but the fact that every society has had one (some are now called mythology) and many of the stories are similar, says something to me.

Sophie-472322-608038 - These sounds like "atheist extremists" to me!

Actually they're just making a point about the 1st Amendment - that our secular government shouldn't be sponsoring ANY religious displays.

Don't like the statement? Then maybe you should think twice before putting a Christmas creche in the city park.

Some atheists are born from a deep resentment of a religion, church or member of the clergy, stemming from a sense of betrayal. Many who are subject to intense religious instruction, but then wind up unable to intersect reality with these teachings react with contempt towards the religion. This can cause a level of extremism directed toward trying to discredit the belief system.

Actually Dec 25th was taken from us as a holiday. And for political reasons given to Christians.

Looking at Santa on a cross is better than the religious groups showing graphic bloody aborted fetuses at our state fair every year. Freedom of speech is freedom of speech, right? Unless it steps on religion's toes, then it's evil apparently.

Agreed. That is why even as an Atheist you may see me defending someone's right to have an Islamic center in downtown Manhattan. Because when discrimination against religious groups is legitimized, discriminating against myself can't be far behind. ( we are supposed to be the most mistrusted people in America. Why? I don't know.)

If you don't believe in Jesus or Mohammad or whatever I think your right, but your not going to win anyone over crucifying Santa.

BTW, I celebrate the very secular holiday of Christmas.

" ( we are supposed to be the most mistrusted people in America. Why? I don't know.)"

In my state (SC) and ten other US states you cannot run for public office if are Atheist/Agnostic. That just seemed incredible to me when I learned this fact but it is quite true. Hard to believe such discrimination exists in America today. Clearly unconstitutional but if you are the one to fight such a case you would likely become so persecuted in this state you would have to move.

I didn't realize that, vox. I'm most likely in one of those states. That I think is where the anger comes from...it's not okay to ban someone from running for office because of color or sex, but it is required a candidate believes in God? I will have to research that more...of course if that is true you are right that if anyone tried to make the point that a law like that is illegal s/he and the family would be threatened and ostracized. How sad.

NC, SC, TN, KY, FL, MA, CT, PA, TN, MD, TX are the states in question. You would think this would be purely a Southern thing but it is not.

Most of these are antiquated laws of course that have never been removed from the books. In Asheville, NC an atheist was recently elected to the city council. He remains on the job despite the state law. There are a few very progressive parts of that state that do not tolerate intolerance. Asheville might be described as the Berkely of the Appalchians. So there are those willing to push the envelope.

One might think one of the real problems facing our nation is the failure to rely on logic and reason. Instead most chose to believe that begging to the sky will change things for the better. We saw the people of West Texas attempt mass prayer to bring rain to their region this spring and summer. Of course no rain came in a timely manner. But no one seems to learn anything from this ignorance.

Jonathan,

I'm confused about your remark -- you're happy to celebrate Christmas but leave the supernatural out of it? Despite the secularization of Christmas, its true purpose is to celebrate the birth of Jesus, the Son of God. That has to be the most supernatural act in history.

Or are you just celebrating the secularization? Again, I'm confused.

So what happens if you pick the wrong religion?

Sure you can: Acts 3:19

Then you ARE the weakest LINK,,...good bye...lol

Roger, as a matter of fact that is exactly what you can do!

You can lay on your death bed and change your mind if you are a Christian. Christianity is the easiest religion. There is no Karma to deal with, eat all the pork and shrimp you want, kill people, etc. Just be sure to confess your sins before you die and Jesus, God, or a Priest (if you are Catholic) will forgive your sins and flash you go to Heaven!

Corn, yeah it's that simple, you have no idea of what you're talking about.

Since when does "I don't believe in a God" mean "I have no beliefs"? That's just silly.

You are wrong. Atheists simply don't believe in the existence of a god or gods. That doesn't mean they don't believe in anything. Why is it seemingly simple concept can't be grasped by so many theists and has to be explained over and over.

Vor, stupid comment.

Did you hear the one about the Atheist who thanked God he was an Atheist.

No but I did hear about the Agnostic, Dyslexic, Insomniac who lay awake at night wondering if the truly is a Dog.

God is not among the things that make up the world in which we live.

Did you hear the one about the Atheist who thanked God he was an Atheist.

Too bad there was no one there to hear his thanks. lol

Yeah, sounds like you know a thing or two about good old hate... LOL!

All I can say is as an atheist I manage to have friends that are Christians. It sounds to me like you are the one who has a problem with hate.

Despite having a father who is a minister and many friends who are Christian (majority in fact) - I am an athiest. Have no fear David - you are one christian I wouldn't want to be friends with either.

David...as Swift once said "We have enough religion to make us hate one another but not enough to make us love one another". I have many Christian friends who tolerate me and I them. Apparently your toleration level is very low.

Why are atheists so stupid?

I meen lets just say for a minute that your right.... lets pretend for a minute there is NO GOD... alright... what do you get in the end for that belief system when you die.... nothing right? Your just dead....

However, what if your wrong? Then you have to stand before your creator and end up in an eternity of hell fire.

So being an atheists means you never win anything and can lose everything.

Whereas lets say i am a christian and there is no God... what do I lose.... I am just dead right?

But if i am right I spend an eternity in paradise.

So here is the truth about atheism and christianity....

atheists have nothing to win and everything to lose whereas christians have everything to gain and nothing to lose...

funny thing is.... the atheist liberals like to portray themselves as intellectuals.... lolllllllllllllllllllll

Well Eric.

Maybe you have the wrong god. Furthermore maybe the real god will cut you some slack if you are an atheist because at least you aren't worshiping someone else. Now on the other hand if you are a Christian he's going to make you fry!!! Bhahahahahahahhahh! See we can all come up with scenarios that work in our favor but that doesn't make them real.

Eric, Pascal's Wager is seriously flawed. Swan tried to point it out to you, but I just want to reiterate that when you call another group "stupid" you should be aware of your total lack of logic.

What was hateful about this poster?

David-2553803 - If I had a friend who told me they were an Atheist, I would end that relationship on the spot just as I would an American Flag burner.

Spoken like a true Christian.

eric stated: "However, what if your wrong? Then you have to stand before your creator and end up in an eternity of hell fire."

Doesn't sound like a very all loving creator then, does it? If this is the God or creator you want, then who is it that is stupid eric?

thank you skrekk...LOL

"Why are atheists so stupid?

I meen lets just say for a minute that your right"

LOL...that's sort of "meen" of you to call us stupid...don't you think "your" being a little harsh?

Maybe you should have skipped Sunday School and paid more attention during Monday-through-Friday school.

However, what if your wrong? Then you have to stand before your creator and end up in an eternity of hell fire.

Why? Because you said so? Nah.

The problem is, there are over a thousand different "Christian" religions and thousands of other religions, all disagreeing on almost everything involving God worship. If an all-knowing all-powerful God wanted me to worship it in a specific way, then that God would have the power to talk directly to me and would know just what to say, thereby cutting out all the middle-men "prophets" who keep confusing the "message" and putting their own spin on things. Since that doesn't happen, I can only conclude that such a God does not exist.

In the unlikely event I find there is an afterlife and a God, then either that God would be a sadistic monster that would want to torture me forever for not following His Word, even though He never told me what to do, or God would be just and reward me for using my intellect and doing good for the sake of being good, not because I feared hell-fire.

Consider this - if God really is a sadistic monster that would eternally torture anyone merely for not believing when God provided no evidence, then said God would also be the capricious sadistic monster that would condemn YOU to eternal torment for violating any one of his hidden inscrutable rules - but at least I'd have the comfort of knowing I hadn't bowed down to such a monster.

only in america- u obviously know nothing about the Bible,let alone read it.Jesus died 4 our sins and if u believe in Him u will go 2 heaven,we were destined 4 hell,God doesnt want us 2 go 2 hell, tht is why He died 4 our sins,so its ur fault if u dont believe,u have a chance so take it.was it not enough 4 Him 2 hang on a cross 4 u?did He have 2 give u a free pass 2 heaven,whether u loved Him or not??get a clue

artist205

Perhaps many of us read the bible enough to understand that it truly is a nonsensical piece of literature. Let me put it this way.. God, whom is an all-powerful omnipotent omniscient being, created hell to punish those who do not revere him and follow his rules. Not revering God and not following his rules pisses God off so much that at one point he killed every single person on earth, save one family... That's how pissy God is about the rules... but he loves us. Am I right so far? Okay.. Good..

Now, flash forward however many years or centuries or whatever.. People are forgetting to give God and his Rules the proper respect, so he's thinking about smiting the whole lot again.. but no.. Instead, he's so keen on the human race that he knocks up a virgin, who in turn gives birth to his son, all with the plan to have him killed to pay for our continued misbehavior... What the hell kind of silliness is that for an all-powerful being? If he is all powerful, why send his kid to be killed in the first place? He, in all his love, power and glory, could've just skipped the whole gory ordeal and just forgiven us himself, appeared in the sky for EVERYONE to see and reiterated what he wants out of everyone... and continued to do so for each generation... ya know, just so none of the message gets lost or distorted over time.

But no.. instead, he has his kid offed, and still relies on imperfect beings to relay his message down through history... knowing full well that imperfect beings will no doubt relay his wants imperfectly... Does that make a lick of sense to you?

And before you give me that "Well God wouldn't reveal himself to the masses that way, because he wants us to come to him of our own free will" line... Well, according to your book, he revealed himself to Adam and Eve and still gave them the free will to choose to do or not do what he said.. He's revealed himself to many people throughout your book.. why only them? Why didn't they have to take all this crap on faith like everyone else? Seems kinda illogical and mean-spirited to me...

Basically, when you boil it all down, if your bible is indeed the penultimate truth you believe it to be... Then your God is the epitome of extremely bad parenting behavior. Think about it.. The way it reads is, God gave the rules to a few people a long long long time ago... Then he disappeared for a while.. came back and was pissed because people stopped following the rules.. so he kicked his kids in the ass and reiterated his rules to another small handful of people.. then took off again...

What you've got is a parent that told his child to write down his rules and relay them to the child's brothers and sisters and didn't stick around to make sure all the kids knew for sure that they were indeed his rules or that child wrote them down correctly or even if the child wasn't adding and removing whatever the child felt like... AND THEN EXPECTED THE CHILDREN TO ALL BEHAVE?!!! ... Does he even stop in at the house from time to time to make sure the kids are doing what he wanted? No.. he waits till a child grows up and leaves the house (dies) and if they didn't do as was told, chains them up and throws them in the river (hell).

So, if you're right and when I shed this mortal coil, I find myself standing before the God of your bible and he asks why the hell didn't I follow his rules.. my answer will be, "Why didn't you tell me the rules yourself? Why did you leave the rules in such an easily corruptible subjective format? Why did you allow so many other sets of rules to be made and handed down through the centuries? Why did you give me a mind that finds all of the contradicting and conflicting beliefs in the world nigh impossible to believe? Why did I not believe in your rules, you ask? Because you were a bad parent.. I was your child and you let me live in a confusing world without your DIRECT guidance.. You let me be born and then abandoned me.. The only guidance you left for me was one of hundreds of books of rules, written throughout time, and the assurance of men that wanted me to believe their book... I had to make sense of it all and this is what made sense to me.. Why did I not believe? Because you failed me."

I meen lets just say for a minute that your right.... lets pretend for a minute there is NO GOD... alright... what do you get in the end for that belief system when you die.... nothing right? Your just dead.... However, what if your wrong? Then you have to stand before your creator and end up in an eternity of hell fire. So being an atheists means you never win anything and can lose everything. Whereas lets say i am a christian and there is no God... what do I lose.... I am just dead right? But if i am right I spend an eternity in paradise.

A Pascal's Wager is a logical fallacy and shows a lack of credibility (and questionable faith) on your part.

atheists have nothing to win and everything to lose whereas christians have everything to gain and nothing to lose...

You better hope you picked the right religion then or else "god" is going to be pissed.

Why are atheists so stupid?

This coming from someone who believes in fairy tales. Seriously?

Jesus died 4 our sins and if u believe in Him u will go 2 heaven,we were destined 4 hell,God doesnt want us 2 go 2 hell, tht is why He died 4 our sins,

Yeah, like that story makes perfect sense. >sarc<

"We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes." ---Gene Roddenberry

there's no Santa

Say it ain't so ! Who the hell has been using my credit card then?

your ex-wife...lol

So wait, there isn't a Santa... But you expect us to believe there is a Jesus? They're both silly fairy tales.

Yep, I'll never understand that one...at a certain age, people come to the realization that Santa isn't real. Same goes for the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy. In my case, I came to that realization about God. But the rest of the world can't make that connection. Talk about brainwashing.

Toasty, it's people like you that make atheists targets. I am a Christian and the crowd I work with is predominantly atheist. They are quick to hold me responsible for some minister that accosted them that they can never identify. Guess what? I didn't do anything to them. Never have. The fact that I exist bothers them. You are no different from the zealots on the religious end of the spectrum. You are intolerant and cross, and exceedingly bitter. And from what I count, you have nothing better to do than to go to EVERY post about Christmas and belittle the faiths of others. I don't like it when people get pissy with me because I say "Happy Holidays" to cover all holidays instead of specifically saying "Merry Christmas," and I don't like it when someone that feeds their inability to feel secure in their decision to not have a faith by bashing others. You are no different from the people that wake me up every Saturday passing out pamphlets. I hate to break it to you, but my faith doesn't need your approval to be important to me.

Hey Chad, here's even more late breaking news - the moon is not made of cheese!

Really? Do you really think Christians don't know that? There are some Christian religious sects that don't celebrate Christmas for that reason. But over the course of 2,000 years, things change. You, being so enlightened and an atheist and progressive and all, should understand that.

God is just pretend and nothing fails like prayer.. let's just leave it at that and go get some ice cream

Jeff there are studies that say prayer does make a difference. Next time you are in a medical library look it up.

Jeff there are studies that say prayer does make a difference. Next time you are in a medical library look it up.

I have and there is no credible study which supports the efficacy of prayer in physical health matters. It may provide a mental comfort, but that's about it. It's essentially the same as a placebo.

. Talk about brainwashing.

It's more a case of stonger indoctrination, especially as a child.

According to MSNBC yesterday, it was a Christian son and atheist mother:

I guess it made a better story today to say it was an atheist display.

Uh, Khan? The poster was not vandalized in the picture I'm looking at.

Even the article is not good, it twists the truth. It says atheists took all but a few of the 21 spots, then later says they took 9 out of 21.

I agree, the headline is completely biased. Might as well say "Screw You If You Aren't A Good Christian"

Pascal's Wager rears its ugly head.

I'd rather live a free and fulfilled life carving my own path of righteousness than having a centuries old book written by men dictate how I should live it.

Did you ever consider if there was no god and you died, you wouldn't find out about it since you would be "dead". This of course assumes you don't also believe in some afterlife phenomenon that doesn't require the existence of a god.

so....do you believe...or do you hope?

dirt nap city woo hoo!!!!!!!!

Your right Thomas, and Zeus is going to be really pissed.

And if you spend all of your life denying yourself any pleasures in an effort to please a non-existent God, you'll have wasted the one and only life you'll ever get.

So the best answer to Pascal's wager is to live the best life you can. If there is a just God, you will be rewarded for using your life wisely. If there is an unjust God, you will be no worse off than those trying to please an unjust God. And if there is no God, you will at least have had one good life.

By the same token, if you live your life thinking it's some sort of dry-run with a do-over later, you're screwed. When you die, you're dead. You're not going to "find out" anything. You're not going to "think" anything. You're not going to "feel" anything. You're dead. Dead. Dead. Dead. Just like a door nail.

Pascal's Wager rears its ugly head.

Yup. Yet again.

I'd rather live a free and fulfilled life carving my own path of righteousness than having a centuries old book written by men dictate how I should live it.

As would I. But then, I guess some people need to believe in fairy tales to help them cope with reality or deal with the reality of death, like some mental comfort mechanism.

dirt nap city woo hoo!!!!!!!!

And time for worm chow! :P

Your right Thomas, and Zeus is going to be really pissed.

And the Flying Spaghetti monster might give you a wet noodle b!tch slap too! RAMEN! :)