I wouldn't mind hosting a couple of them. It would be a good Civics lesson for my grandchildren. Viknat- crude Conservative belligerence isn't in style any more. We're tired of you.

Siara Delyn

QUOTE: ..... Follow in the Steps of the Archbishop of Canterbury, who refuses to turn his back on the Occupiers.

I don't blame him, I wouldn't turn my back on them either.

@ siari.Try checking Mat- 7;1. yourself, you judge others without knowing the truth.

Put a sign on your yard saying occupiers welcome. Must have good manners.lol

Siara- Please post your address so that OWS can find it's new home. I'm sure that your neighbors will understand it if 500-1000 people just show up and live on your front yard for a few months. They'll be further understanding when they crap all over your yard, destroy the landscaping, make noise all night, get frequent visits from the police, and they'll get used to the yelling and "mikechecks" that will happen all the time. When they have to leave, AKA when the health department gets involved and finds typhoid and OWS fever on your property, they'll tear up what's left and leave a few tons of debris for you to clean up, you'll get the huge bill from the sanitation department and the police for having to show up for months of overtime. Just remembered, hope your home owner's insurance is paid up because you are going to face lawsuits when someone falls or gets assaulted on your property. You- of course- are the party responsible for having them there. ENJOY!

The OWS entitlement generation needs to understand that camping out on the street pretending to protest while partying and drugging up has gotten old for the public and is no longer getting a good message across. They need to get better organized with their message and picket the place that counts, the White House! where they won't be punishing small business with their disruptive behavior.

i was once a bit of an expert on the bible; yes, a creepy fundamentalist. i have no doubt what jesus would do. he would walk the path with the occupiers, not to heal them, but give them strength against the hatred, greed and delusion of the system, including the churches, banks, government, media... .

remember jesus went into the temples and turned over the tables of the money collectors; he was angry at the economic injustices. he wasn't a character to turn his back on those in need, but to lift them up.

as a wealthy Occupier myself; i do what I can to lift the ones on the street up. not just with money, but by taking them fresh pots of warm soup, walking along side them, listening to their stories of police brutality and generalized hate they receive.

wake up, if you think these folk are entitled, you are missing the point. it is you who is entitled sufficiently enough to choose to ignore the 50% of americans who are poor. Yes, it was just announced, 50% of americans are low income and poor. get up off your sofa now and take action because it isn't just about the 1% greed and hatred, but our societies, including you and I.

@ clark; That would require hard work sir. Wow,what an epiphany!

Again, the occupiers have it ALL WRONG !!!

They should set up camp on the White House lawn.....the source of our PROBLEMS. Heck, they would probably be served snacks from the White House's kitchen or invited inside for a formal dinner.

OWS is racist. The lump all the GOP, wealthy successful people, corporate executives, Wall Street togeter and call them all bad. They have no clue how much contribution to this country all those groups have made. Jobs, Charities, time, effort, hard work. There is no question there are bad guys among these groups. But then again how many criminals camp out with OWS?

HUm----WWJD? They are right, he was a Liberal and a "socialist." You folks are petrified of the word. Think about it next time you go to a "social" gathering, attend a church "social," or cash your "Social" Security check. Facebook is a "Social" Network.

Seriously folks, unless you are the 1%, you should stand with these fine folks in their quest for democracy. "dirty, smelly?" stereotype much? The "church" defies the logic of the Jesus that I read about.

Jesus did not try to "overthrow" the government. Jesus did not come as a political revolutionary, he had no concern for it, even though that was what his disciples believed he was going to do at first (overthrow the Roman rule). It is not the responsibility of the church to house these "so-called poor" who have the choice where to sleep. It is the responsibility to give refuge to those who truly need a place for comfort, warmth, and the love of Christ. Jesus was uninterested in our squabbles over what we have here but whether or not we know him. "Set your minds on things above, not on things that are on earth."

Viknat- crude Conservative belligerence isn't in style any more. We're tired of you.

LMAO. "Belligerence" in the same sentence by a liberal who promotes anarchy in the streets under the guise of the OWS movement. Hilarious!

Merry Christmas to the swarm of hypocrites posting today !!!

It will be educational to witness the morality play involving Rev. Cooper's spiritual and material interests.

He had better hope that what he preaches others is indeed B.S. if he chooses to violate his own teachings.

They should set up camp on the White House lawn.....the source of our PROBLEMS. Heck, they would probably be served snacks from the White House's kitchen or invited inside for a formal dinner

And another thing for sure, they would not inconvenience or interrupt any workers there. Nobody does sh.t there anyway!

Yeah, you clowns, take your messages to Dumbama - he likes you. Make his frigging life miserable, he deserves it.

Hmmmm,

Now, if the useful idiots in the OWS were to have organized better and sent three hundred of their minions out to work a simple minimum wage job at $7.25 they would have brought back $1,044,000 dollars over the 3 months they've been "organized".

I'm sure they could find a few acres in upstate New York they could buy with that much money. They can pitch their camp there and run their protests all day and night.

And another thing, sandtrich: America is NOT a "democracy." We are a Constitutional Representative Republic. A democracy is mob rule as our Founding Fathers were clearly against. That's why you won't see the word one single time in the Constitution. Clearly you also failed Civics 101. And I'll bet you vote Democrat.

And I damn sure could have found a job in the three months these mouth breathing idiots have been living like troglodytes disrupting daily commerce for a fake cause. Let them sleep in the bed they made for themselves. Literally. I'll enjoy my successful life and warm home and bed just fine.

@ sandwich; You are really something else sir.lol. Me thinks you've had too much avocado juice.lol

cweller

Jesus did not try to "overthrow" the government. Jesus did not come as a political revolutionary, he had no concern for it, even though that was what his disciples believed he was going to do at first (overthrow the Roman rule). It is not the responsibility of the church to house these "so-called poor" who have the choice where to sleep. It is the responsibility to give refuge to those who truly need a place for comfort, warmth, and the love of Christ. Jesus was uninterested in our squabbles over what we have here but whether or not we know him. "Set your minds on things above, not on things that are on earth."

You're describing our founding fathers. They overthrew a government that did not represent the people fairly.

What I find interesting is the fact that my friends & I never discuss the Occupy movememt. Out of all our political discussions, debates and general conversations this group doesn't ever come up. My entire group of friends who are all in the so called 99% don't really seem to care about anything this occupy group does. Maybe if they actually come up with ideas or actually have a stance about something other than wanting life to be handed to them maybe there will be something interesting to talk about.

@ sandwich; Yes they did, but they took care of themselves , they did not cry because the motherland had more money than they, or ask them for anything,except independence,not dependence, see the contrast sir.

Amen Coral. Nice to see some fellow common sense around here.

Coral Taxi

@ sandwich; You are really something else sir.lol. Me thinks you've had too much avocado juice.lol

Hum--there's no such thing. I do make a concoction from mango, orange, bananas, etc that I grow myself. You know---a smoothie.

Seriously--what is the beef of folks on the right with the exercise of free speech? Our founding fathers destroyed property belonging to the ruling government. These folks just want their voices to be heard and they're not out to destroy property. Peaceful disobedience was the means of Jesus, Gandhi, and MLK---pretty cool group. That, my friend, is democracy. Do you cherish democracy only when it's convenient?

sandtrich

you should stand with these fine folks in their quest for democracy

We are NOT a democracy, we are a Federal Constitutional REPUBLIC!

Please, please, learn the difference. And please don't insult yourself by throwing some Wiki or dictionary definition of a democracy and a Republic. Read the Constitution and the Federalist Papers to understand the difference between a TYPE of government and a FORM of government.

HUm----WWJD?

ROTFLMAO!!!!!

Isn't it ironic how when the Libbies want to entrench their alleged empathy they throw Jesus and religion around as if they have a clue. But if a Conservative shows his or her belief they are a Bible-waving, gun-toting, Right Wing Nut Job.

Hypocrites!

@ sandwich, O.k, I thought you could make juice from the Avocados you grow. O.K then maybe somebody slipped you a mickey in your mango, cause you are trippin. But then again when are you not.lol

Not out to destroy property? Have you seen how they left Their "occuoy" encampments? Disgusting.

Freedom: I addressed the democracy vs. Republic thing to sandtrich in an earlier post above. Liberalism is all about emotions, not rational thought and facts. And I too love how liberals will cherry pick "what would Jesus do" comments to fit their agenda when these same fools wet themselves in horror over a public Christmas display or prayer in school (or on the football field in the case of Tebow).

Occupy movement: Wearing clothes, made by, and bought from, evil corporations, eating food, from evil corporation stores, sleeping in tents, made by,and bought from, evil corporations, talking on cell phones, made by evil corporations, with service provided by evil corporations, powered by evil corporations. Posting on the internet, through an evil corporations server, with a computer made by an evil corporation, to a web site ran by an evil corporation. The car sitting in their driveway, was made by, maintained by, and powered by evil corporations as well.

Yea, I get it. They are mad because of evil corporations, and not mad enough to not SUPPORT those evil corporations.

Until the occupiers live by their own means, and make their own food, tents, blankets, clothes, gasoline, cars, etc. they need to simply SHUT UP!!!!!!!!!!!!

And to those of you that feel we need to do more for them, feel free. Do whatever you want, just dont tell me what I should do. You want to donate more to the government, feel free, dont claim any deductions on your taxes, check the little box on the form that says contribute more, etc.

Until the occupiers live by their own means, and make their own food, tents, blankets, clothes, gasoline, cars, etc. they need to simply SHUT UP!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'd like to take it a step further. Round up all these vermin and stick them in some remote land somewhere and let them fend for themselves where no big evil corporations make things they want to use. Let them make their own food, shelter, and clothing from scratch - like our forefathers did.

They know they couldn't fend for themselves if their very lives depended on it. On the other hand, people like me who grew up learning how to hunt, fish, and build things with my bare hands can survive just fine without big nanny collectivism and socialism government if it comes to that.

Oh, and next time you see some OWS useful idiot whine that big evil corporations are hoarding jobs and being greedy, just show him or her that companies aren't filling a lot of positions because they can't find anyone with the SKILLS required. But it's just a hell of a lot easier to sit in a tent and whine about life.

"US manufacturers have 600,000 unfilled positions because of a lack of qualified skilled workers, according to a report released in October by Deloitte, the consultants, and the National Association of Manufacturers, an industry body."

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/6d586922-21f0-11e1-8b93-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1gpKZznXo

This about sums up the whole movement:

talons

Good points on taxes. This pertains to corporate tax as well. OWS thinks that corporations don't pay their fair share of taxes, even though they follow the code. Clearly I would never invest in a company that voluntarily gives up its right to take a deduction.

10tacle

It's an indictment of our self-inflicted illiteracy. You're right, civics have become about wants rather than needs, feel-good programs rather than functional ones and of course, their favorite, envy.

It's sad how American exceptionalism is so difficult for our current Imposter-in-Chief to even say. His veiled efforts are just a further testament to his goal of making America mediocre. remember, it's easier to bring our great nation down rather than to bring the rest of the world up.

This sums up the whole movement:

@ sandwich;

Peaceful disobedience was the means of Jesus.

Umm people were disobedient to Jesus,not the other way around, he was Jesus ya know. I would call the occupiers, the "peoples without a cause", they are so ambiguous, I get the anti corporate thing but they are not unified on much, I consider myself of average intelligence, and I still do not get what they are trying to say. or want is what I really should say, what is their agenda ?

it's easier to bring our great nation down rather than to bring the rest of the world up.

Like minds think alike, Freedom. I have long said that liberalism and the mentality behind it is the equivalent of the mentality of sinking a cruise ship filled with 5,000 people... just to be equal and fair to the 5 people who are next to it in a sinking dingy.

10tacle:

I agree, our government has gotten to the place where these occupier idiots feel they are entitled to MY hard work. I dont work because I like to work, I work because I like to eat. Our country has gotten so far off track that they feel that they are OWED something without doing anything. Uncle Barry wants to give anyone that wont work something, at the same time suing states for doing the unthinkable, protecting our borders.

Lar:

If I thought for a second I was going to invest my time, sweat, money, and risk my home and future on a business only to give it to those that sit around at home and say gimme gimme gimme, why would I even attempt to make my life, and future better? Occupiers want to belittle the "1%" but havent a clue as to what they went through to get where they are. CEOs have educated themselves, and have proven themselves in the business world before ANYONE would even consider them for the position of CEO. Even the sports millionaires have put in more time than the occupiers want to acknowledge to get to the point where they can make the money that we, as a society, agree to pay them. They put their health on the line every day they go to work. Look at any former NFL player, (I know several) and you will see the price they are paying for their paycheck they earned while playing. Bad knees, bad feet, bad shoulders, etc.

What it comes down to is the occupiers need to stop envying the producers in the world and start producing on their own.

If we were in cave man days, they would be the prey, not the hunters.

talons-1110240

10tacle:

I agree, our government has gotten to the place where these occupier idiots feel they are entitled to MY hard work. I dont work because I like to work, I work because I like to eat. Our country has gotten so far off track that they feel that they are OWED something without doing anything. Uncle Barry wants to give anyone that wont work something, at the same time suing states for doing the unthinkable, protecting our borders.

Our government is busy ordering more WMD's from their friends, the defense contractors. I didn't vote for a military dictatorship and all of the GOP pretenders want to spend MORE money on defense with the exception of Paul. Only one department was spared cuts---defense. In reality, the GOP came up with the budget that gave defense an increase. Huh? We spend as much as the balance of the world combined on defense.

Stop ignoring the electorate. The "occupier idiots" are the ones occupying seats in the House and Senate.

I dont work because I like to work, I work because I like to eat.

It's a tough life being a troll isn't it?

CEOs have educated themselves, and have proven themselves in the business world before ANYONE would even consider them for the position of CEO

And how many do you know? Most of them are from wealthy backgrounds and haven't had to work a day in their lives. It's a pretty exclusive club that most don't stand a chance of getting into.

Look at any former NFL player, (I know several) and you will see the price they are paying for their paycheck they earned while playing. Bad knees, bad feet, bad shoulders, etc.

You're joking right? No one is more overpaid than professional athletes, except CEO's. These prima donnas think they are above the law. They get off of things that most of us would be incarcerated for.

You know, I would have given you more credit if you had mentioned real working people, like miners, construction workers, cops, firemen, teachers, doctors and emergency workers. I wouldn't waste my spit on most CEO's. Don't confuse them with the middle class of Americans who are being eliminated at their gain.

Ah, David comes to some liberal's rescue. Not.

Socialism is NOT collectivism. That would be why it's called socialism and that would be why collectivism is called collectivism.

Sure it is. Anyone who doesn't believe so has his head in the sand.

http://www.wired.com/culture/culturereviews/magazine/17-06/nep_newsocialism?currentPage=all

By your idiotic definition shopping at the grocery store would be socialism because - as you would have it - you are taking money from your wallet and redistributing it to the grocer.

I was responding to someone else's post who said that socialism equals social gathering. If we are social in church, we should be social in fiscal matters. That was the premise of the other person's post. You jumped in not knowing where I was coming from obviously.

Don't try out for the debate team when you get to high school.

I'll take the high road and not personally insult you, David. It is apparent you are an arrogant liberal who thinks he knows everything when in fact he can't even pay attention to the underlying reason and/or response about someone's post. Have a nice life.

Nice response David Walker (post #1.49). Too bad it will most likely be collapsed as this article has brought out a bevy of right wing haters that think everyone is trying to take something from them. Little do they realize that most of their hard earned tax dollars go right back into the pocket of the very rich that they protect and that the protesters are trying to shed some light on these folks. Stupidity knows no bounds, but even this is unbelievable. It's like a hungry person yelling at a soup kitchen because they're trying to feed hungry people.

To all of you suggesting that Jesus would allow the protestors, you are really pushing it, in terms of reality. First off, the majority of the protestors tend to be LEFT, which means among other things they believe abortion is "OK" so while I could list multitudes, it's not my place, but you Liberals really are funny.

Reality is, the church said NO, reasons are irrelevant, it's their FIRST AMMENDMENT RIGHT, so if OWS doesn't want to continue to be CRIMINALS, then they are supposed to VACATE and go where welcomed. But they've proven there are many CRIMINALS in the group, using this as a front.

If they TRULY have a purpose, then follow what the Tea Party did.

1: act like adults

2: PAY for your part, including permits.

3: Get active politically, instead of continuing to be nothing more than a bunch of spoiled idiots that feel entitled to someone else's money.

Right now the have proven not to be very smart, allowing criminals to be the focus. Tea Party did well avoiding that, but again they acted like adults. That is WHY Liberals today are screaming so much about Tea Party, they did it right and didn't do it for self-gratification and idiotic reasons.

Put your bias aside, and recognize that the members of Tea Party (not me) were organized and didn't cause PUBLIC DISRUPTION, but were effective, very effective. If you want to DO IT RIGHT, then quit acting like IDIOTS and organize appropriately, or go down in history as a bunch of thugs, idiots and social misfits, as right now that's all you are.

Period.

And put aside your bias and realize what is happening is more like a caricature than anything REAL, vs the Tea Party that worked towards changes THEY wanted. You Occupy Wall Street followers are proving to have very low intelligence, as less than ONE year out, you are nothing more than a comedy act for over 1/2 of this country, acting more like a 10 year old that didn't get their XBox for Christmas than a group with a real cause and mission. You've garnered ZERO support from anyone that matters and allowed OBAMA to use you as a stepping stone to re-election, when in fact he doesn't give a crap about YOU either. If you don't believe me, look at where his money comes from, it's from those YOU protest. For me, I could care less, don't support your causes, or agenda, but GROW UP and do it right if you are going to continue and quit acting like well-trained monkeys, which is what the Democratic Party has been using you for. Again, if you don't believe it, LOOK at where they get funding...LOL...LOL

The stinky children of the park return, and now they think this church should allow them to trash it too, just like they have trashed every other place they have "occupied". They need to get jobs, but the way they look makes them unemployable, especially the ones I saw in Houston, one had a mohawk and huge nose ring, and the other had one half of his head shaved, yea, Id really want to hire somebody like them.

I still support OWS idea

but no long support the way they do things, these people are protesting and idea, not protesting to get jobs, this isnt a strike

im just waiting for the corps to spit bakc out all the money they got from our last bailout, then maybe the conservatives will stop being hypocrites n complain about where thier tax money went...

i await the day conservatives would protest

its like thier told to stand in line and are doing so to keep outtha trouble, cuz THEY are satisfied

considering the fact that most conservatives are very religious...

this is...

HAH

I am beginning to wonder when these OWS clowns will actually grow up and act like adults.

Do I fall into the 99% category? You betcha. Do I support these losers? Not on your life. Their ignorance, casual disregard for the law and public/private property as well as their snide, self-righteous attitude only continue to reinforce the image that they are nothing short of a mindless mob.

Do I think changes need to be made in our country, in our government and in the way things are done? Certainly. However, breaking the law, clashing with police and showing a severe lack of organization is not going to get it done. Not now. Not ever.

The one girl in the article complaining about people not having any "rights" is only another symptom of this mindless mentality. I guess it never occurred to her that if you break the law, the cops will arrest you. Well, duh. Does she think her right to protest allows her to break the law, trespass on private property, etc.?

That seems to be the mindset of these losers. I sure wish they'd grow up someday and learn that there are far better ways of getting things done than to act like a pack of fools.

David Walker

Let's start at the beginning there. Socialism is NOT collectivism. That would be why it's called socialism and that would be why collectivism is called collectivism. They are different creatures.

WOW!!!! That’s some of the most infantile if not convoluted reasoning I have ever heard. Your indoctrination into Liberalism/Progressivism is essentially complete. Unfortunately your public school education is showing.

Lemme see, where can I find a definition of collectivism even you brainwashed Progressives will understand. Oh, look, here’s one I think we can all agree on, well at least those of us that have a clue anyway.

Collectivism has found varying degrees of expression in the 20th century in such movements as socialism, communism, and fascism. ~ Encyclopaedia Britannica britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/125584/collectivism

A church DOES NOT take your money, you agree to GIVE it to them. You contribute it to them. You DO NOT have to give it if you’re there. Try that with Social Security. Just tell your employer you have decided NOT to pay your OASDI. See how long that letter from Baltimore takes to get to you.

The social “gathering” comparison to social security is simply that one is voluntary and the other isn’t.

It isn’t that Liberals are ignorant. It’s just that they know so much that isn’t so.

~ Ronald Reagan

Ido,

Again, the occupiers have it ALL WRONG !!!

They should set up camp on the steps of Congress

There I fixed it for you. Obama has nothing to do with the situation we are in, or at least very little. Congress is the source of all policies set forth by the Government. All bills and legislation must pass through its halls before either being approved or vetoed by the President, who can be overruled.

Congress is the true seat of power of the Government in this country, not the Presidency or the courts.

Freedomringsloud:

What is it with you people? Do you not understand what you read? The definition of collectivism, which you supplied, clearly states it finds DEGREES of expression in socialism, communism, and fascism. Do you not grasp the concept of degrees? Are you unable to grasp the fact that fascism and communism are at virtually opposite extremes?

It's not enough that you display your ignorance on that subject, you go on the virtually equate progressivism with liberalism. Why do these ism's have different names if they're the same thing?

If the church does not TAKE money, will you please explain to me - or anyone else for that matter - how it winds up in their hands? 'Twas Jesus H. Christ himself who said, render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God, that which is God's. You can't render something if it's not being taken. And don't try to tell me that people don't give that money out of fear. Tithes are salvation bribes given by people who have been scared into believing in hellfire delivered by Invisoguy. Many of the flocked-up folk don't tithe willingly, they do so out of fear, plain and simple.

You don't really think a quote from St. Ronald of Reagan has any serious import, do you? This guy you worship - the patron saint of conservatism - increased the federal deficit almost 200%. This is the same guy who broke one union even as he was praising the wonderfulness of unions, all the while forgetting that he headed a union. The guy was born with Alzheimer's.

Vote G.O.P. - Suicide by Republican.

You guys that are against these protestors would have all been on the side of The Crown during the American Revolution. I'm an older guy and I remember what being the age of most of these protestors was like. Jobs were plentiful and college was affordable. This country is badly bruised and battered from 10 straight years of wars. Look back--when did a President cut taxes during a war?, (let alone 2). Young people are paying into a system that will not benefit them, (social security). Every generation gets to prosper or suffer from the prior generation's decisions. I've lived well and they don't have nearly as many opportunities as my generation has.

Let them be or join them. It's your choice. Your consistent answer to any their gripes is basically, "F them."

Keep this thread alive

I remember what being the age of most of these protestors was like. Jobs were plentiful and college was affordable

Hear, hear. So do I. There was a time that I could've quit my job in the morning if I didn't like it, and had another one by the afternoon. Try that now and it's akin to suicide. Also, our generation knew we were being fooled by the powers that be. They were sending us off to a war that unchecked, would have spread and possibly turned into a world conflict. Of course, we're talking to people on this thread who think wars are valiant and can possibly be won. I guess you can't fix stupid, only contain it.

@ sandwich;

This country is badly bruised and battered from 10 straight years of wars.

No sir,The only ones bruised and battered, are those that fight and have fought the good fight,for you and I, to keep the flames of terrorism tampered down. I do not believe I nor you in paradise,have suffered any bruises sir, although we do reap the benefits of them, by being more secure and safe.This you can not deny.

Our fighting men and women have fought vigouroulsy,and professionally,to give you the right to bash their efforts,nothing I have not told you before, but I will repeat it to you till the cows come home.

oral Taxation----

we're broke and $2T and counting is the net result of these wars.

6000 US service members lives between the 2 wars.

66000 admitted Iraqi civilians are dead.

The real costs will be seen in the VA clinics around this country.

War profiteering and fake intel that should have Bush, Rove, Cheney, and Rummy hanging from the same rope used to hang Sadam. Bush probably has it in a trophy case in his home.

@ sandwich; oral Taxation

Good one, sandwich.

First off, your numbers are skewed,try ,more like,150,000 Iraqis died and the majority were citizens. Over 3.7 trill roughly was spent on the wars sent 9/11, not 2(and you did not even notice the extyra 1.7 trill,lol)).. Not that I like bolstering your case, but your numbers are wrong. You surprise me that you have these numbers wrong.The number of American war casualties is close enough, so I will not not nit pick on that, because one is too many.

we're broke and $2T and counting is the net result of these wars

Do you have a mouse in your pocket sir? At last check you were drinking smoothies in paradise, waiting for the government to take us over.lol Do you not find it somewhat hypocritical, to bitch about a cost of war? As far as the VA costing us, and I will gladly contribute my taxes to their care no problem.

Is there any subject for which Mr. Wizard isn't everyone's intellectual superior? He refers to the OWS as ‘clowns’, ‘losers’ ‘snide, self righteous’ and a ‘mindless mob’ He makes no attempt at intellectual points or logical argument. Instead, he feels that calling names at people who disagree with him, is somehow a form of the logical argument that constantly eludes him.

It also eludes him that while he pontificates and criticizes the actions of others, he does absolutely nothing to support the ideas he supposedly holds. I have no doubt in my mind why the word ‘ignorant’ is always so close to his lips.

He says he supports changes in our country but then name-calls the only people doing anything about it. He is so clueless that he refers to the movement as having a ‘casual disregard for the law and…property’. Where did you ever get the idea that it was in any way ‘casual’? My observations have been that the disregard for the law, et. al. were quite specific and intentional. Why do you think they call it ‘civil disobedience’? I guess that’s too complex a concept for your superior intellect to master.

Mr. Wizard seems to think that if the OWS goes home and elects responsible leaders and then they write a polite letter to the 1%, everything will be fine. If those people weren’t in the street ‘breaking the law’ and ‘clashing with the police’ none of us would be having this conversation.

The most important thing about OWS is that whatever happens now, they have changed the conversation forever. Mr. Wizard seems to think they should have tried doing that by writing letters to the editor. “Well, duh,” talk about ‘mindset of a loser’.

Mister Wizard says ‘there are far better ways of getting things done than to act like a pack of fools.’ Really? Like what? Write a letter to your congressman who is sucking at a corporate teat? Write a letter in Newsvine that name calls the only people actually accomplishing anything to change the status quo?

For someone so intellectually bankrupt that they chose to call people names instead of putting forth opposing ideas, chosing instead to call people they disagree with: “clowns, losers and fools”, you sure are impressed with yourself.

As I said elsewhere, when Mister Wizard called me names, rather than even trying to refute a single thing I said:

Do I honestly have to point out to anyone that someone who names himself ‘Wizard of Wisdom’ is in love with himself? I won’t fault him for being on the wrong side of every issue (he considers Manning nothing but a criminal, hates OWS and wants hate laws repealed). All of that is his right.

The problem for Mr. Wizard is his cartoon-esque, simplistic view of the world (Manning had other choices, OWS should be law abiding and hate laws are unconstitutional). But then he slips deeper, from cartoons to TV. The most pathetic thing about Mr. Wizard is that he watched too many Star Trek reruns and thinks that if he acts detached and unemotional like “Spock”, that somehow this makes him intelligent and logical.

Mr. Wizard’s mind is so simplistic that he equates ‘passion’ with ‘irrationality’ and ‘stoicism’ with ‘intelligence’. His M.O. here is to seize upon the passion of an author and then discredit everything he says by attacking the emotionality, while never even attempting to refute a single word or idea. He pontificates, sprinkling comments about his superior intellect and the inability of others to counter his logic, when, in fact, there just isn’t any.

Mr. Wizard makes declarative statements and doesn’t even attempt to back them up. We should all be thankful that he found us worthy of his pearls of wisdom (of which he is the Wizard). His trick is to masque the evil passion of his restrictive view of society into a stoic presentation of his twisted ideas. He makes no attempt to criticize the merit of opposing ideas (I don’t think he is capable-at least he’s never tried). Instead, he hides behind his ‘Spock-like’ exterior, declaring that any idea more impassioned than his own is too emotional to be considered. He makes absolutely no attempt to intellectually grapple with opposing ideas. He believes his distain for passion is enough.

If Mr. Wizard were a little more educated, he might have come across Bertrand Russell’s observation that Man created logic because of an emotional need to prove his feelings were correct. That if Man did not have an emotional need to prove him self to others, he never would have developed logic.

Mr. Wizard feels (not thinks) that passion is the opposite of logic, when, in fact, it is the embodiment and source of logic. So keep telling yourself how superior you are, while never attempting to support any of your positions. Continue trying to discredit ideas by attacking the authors, rather than the ideas. Ironically, this trick is so basic and so sophomoric that I learned it as a ‘Fallacy of Logic’ in High School, before I ever got to college.

Mr. Wizard needs to learn that there is more to logic thought than pretending you are “Spock”. You have to present and defend real ideas and actually refute other people’s arguments instead of looking down your nose and declaring them ‘too emotional’. Clearly, ‘Wizard of Wisdom’ is so named because all of his wisdom is a magic trick.

So, are you going to treat us with some more anal drivel about how superior you are, or are you capable of making an actual counterpoint? (I’m betting on the former)

Tony:

You call me a troll because why? because I state my opinion? Guess we all know where you stand on issues too, does that mean we will insult you?

For every CEO you name that did "nothing to deserve being there" I will point out what they did to deserve to be there. I will also name 50 that are smarter, work harder, and are more innovative than you to warrant their place in life above you. The same goes for business owners. The rich of the world that earned their fortunes far outnumber those that you want to complain did nothing.

And, as it so happens, I do personally know several. I am not jealous of them. I do not think they took my money. I respect their work ethic that got them to the point they are at.

If you feel you should make as much money as the pro athletes, (or determine their worth), simply walk a day in their shoes. catch a ball thrown with enough zip on it to knock out someone if it hit them in the head, while 1,2, or three other people intent on you not catching it try to stop you. Run a 4.4 40 in pads. They have TALENT, just as the CEOs do, they have earned the money they make. I would love to play pro ball, I tried out once even, but the fact is, the difference between my paycheck and theirs is the same as the difference between my talent and theirs. Same with the CEOs. I chose a path in life that was good for me. I will never be rich, unless I choose to put in the effort that they do.

The same goes for you.

In closing, why do you feel you have a right to determine someone worth, and even more, why do you feel you are entitled to THEIR work, (whether you consider it HARD, or EASY)?

Life is not about being equal for all. It is about giving everyone the same opportunities in life. You could have been a CEO, had you simply chose to put in the work. You didnt, so you flip burgers and complain.

You call me a troll because why? because I state my opinion?

NO! Because you run down people you don't even know, calling them lazy, stupid and wanting handouts, not knowing their situations. You have this "Im better than you" attitude because maybe you've been fortunate to have had a good life. Well pal, I've worked since I was 15 (before that if you want to count odd jobs such as delivering newspapers, yard work, etc.) and have never taken one cent of welfare from the government. No, I don't flip burgers, but i'm proud of the work I do and have no regrets. I could go on, but have no desire to engage in a war of words with you. You've shown your hand and it's the same as every other right wing, hater of people that wanders on this vine. Have a wonderful day.

I never said they were lazy, or stupid. I stated that they were wanting handouts instead of doing the work. I feel my life is as good as it is because of my work ethic. I too have worked since 14 and am currently working two jobs. People out there are abusing the system with 2 YEARS of unemployment, and wanting more. I know for a fact that if I lost my jobs today, I would be working before the end of the week. It may not be the job I want, but it would be work. Too many people simply sit at home and play xbox instead of trying to find work. Simply put, its not my, or your, job to make sure someone has a job. It is everyone's responsibility to ensure their own place in life. The liberal stance is fine when people simply need a little help. But we both know there are MANY out there that abuse the system.

Look at Florida requiring those on welfare to drug test before receiving benefits. How is that a violation of their civil rights? My work drug tests, I have a choice. Take the test, and the paycheck, or take neither. Its not complicated. You dont want to take the drug test, dont apply for the job, or the welfare.

America You've Abandoned Your Own People for some Gold Coins - Vermin

America I've given you all and now I'm nothing. America two dollars and twenty seven cents, America
when will we end the human war? Go f’k yourself with your atom bomb. Make us the workers work sixteen hour days only to subsist. America this is quite serious America this is the impression I get from looking in the television set. America is this correct? I'd better get right down to the job. America you
sneer at the millions upon millions of Americans dying stealth deaths slow painful
broken spirits broken backs broken hearts you make me want to puke on YOU !!!!!

You should have seen me reading Madison, Paine, Jefferson, Adams and even Pound, I’m perfectly right
YOU ARE CORRUPT - I won’t say the Lord’s Prayer no longer words of defeatism mystical visions and cosmic vibrations. America emotional life being run by Madison Ave jerk offs the worst of the worst war criminals as Cheney men above the law – We now enter the absolute Police State – Alms Alms Alms for YOUR children - This is not America?????

WHERE IS AMERICA???? - THERE IS NO AMERICA JUST LOOK AROUND SEE FOR YOURSELF - LOOK!!!!!

Wow Mike, reminds me of an old Buddy Holly song....Rave On!

You should read this "no agenda" at the99declaration.org to get a clue. Nobody is demanding anything for free; just a fair shake for the folks who have been getting trampled in a rigged economy. Just some health care, like all the other top economic countries provide their citizens through their taxes. We don't want anything more than fairness, good jobs and an end to spending our money needlessly on wars for profit, huge bank bailouts and breaks for the wealthy. Don't you feel really stupid supporting the other side and their massive trillion-dollar corporate welfare payouts from their shills in Congress and the White House against struggling fellow American workers getting minimum wage and needing a little welfare in the form of housing subsidies or food stamps to feed their kids? If you had any sense of decency you would feel really ashamed of being such a tool for corporate propaganda.

I think we should protest the 50% that pay no taxes at all but reap all the benifits of the government! This is obamas hope and change, to get rid of the people that work and provide a comfortable living for the people that will never look for a job..... you know what...... they call it socialism you damn people that love the democrat party and the OWS crowd..... go get a job and work hard and maybe you can have the same things as other people have.... greedy jerks.

Yes, 50% pay no taxes, so Obama, Pelosi, and Reid came up with the scheme to not pay 2% of Social Security Payroll tax. With these idiots now stealing from Social Security every year, it will go broke sooner.

The entitlement society that started with Franklin Roosevelt and got supercharged by Lyndon Johnson and added to monthly by Obama will destroy the US economy. There are not enough people paying taxes to support the millions on government giveaway programs.

Mike - I agree with some of the things they are saying but.... they are asking for something for nothing.

A fair tax code (a more progressive tax code)

Healthcare for all (free healthcare)

Jobs for all Americans (free job training)

Student Loan Forgiveness (free college)

Immigration reform and Border Security (amnesty for illegal aliens)

If the Occupiers want health care, get a job and buy it. My uncle was not educated so he worked on the Chrysler assembly line during the day, did inventory at a warehouse at night and was a painter on Saturday. He took care of his wife and two children just fine, and did not steal anything from US taxpayers.

We need that self respect and self reliance to come back to the US instead of having a population of people waiting for every new government program to give them more. They are leeches on society.

Reno - asking other posters with a position different from yours to "shut up" is stifling freedom of speech. You have ever right to post your beliefs and nobody should tell you to be silent. Shame on you.

Yes, they dirtbags are COMMUNISTS and need to have the courage to admit it.

We'll see how far they get when that becomes clear.

Jerry ... you're mistaken if you believe that 50% of the population pays no taxes. They might not pay an income tax because they make too little (I'm sure they'd rather be making more money and pay taxes), but they pay all sorts of other taxes, including sales taxes, property taxes (even if they rent), gas taxes, utility taxes, etc... They are not getting a free ride.

Student Loan Forgiveness (free college)

I'm not surprised that they're asking for that. But, we've seen in other countries how free college leads to the creation of a new class of professional students. First, they'll want free tuition, then they'll expect free room/board and textbooks. We've got a higher education system that, unless our elementary/high schools, are the envy of the world. Between community colleges, public colleges and private colleges, there's something for just about everyone. Don't expect a Harvard education for a community college tuition.

If the Occupiers want health care, get a job and buy it.

Really? Do you have any idea what health insurance costs these days, especially if bought by a private individual? Non-group single coverage costs over $1,000/month in lower New York State. At that rate, a person working two full-time jobs @ $10/hour (well above minimum wage) would be paying over 25% of his PRE-TAX income for medical insurance. If he or she has a family, the rates are far, far higher.

Your uncle who worked on the Chrysler assembly line undoubtedly had employer-paid insurance. Fewer and fewer jobs provide that benefit these days.

YT: You know some of those freeloaders or whatever you call them, could be YOUR child who is fed up with the system. Haven't you ever felt fed up with the system?

We ain't gonna quit till we get justice. We ain't gonna stop till the Fascists and their slave workers become human beings again and treat us like we are, too.

I think this article sums the movement:

the OWS croud are Occupying the wrong place .. they need to occupy Town Hall Meetings

"I'm just loving seeing everybody from Zuccotti Park and it really puts an exclamation point on the (question) that's been asked today so many times, 'Do you guys need a space?' ... and the answer is, 'yes.' When you walk around and see the familiar faces and the kindred spirits and the unification of effort, then you realize yes we do need a space so that we can all be together and function as whole as a group and move forward, no doubt," said Thorin Caristo, a 37-year-old protester who is part of an independent livestream team.

Its turning into a Greatfull Dead following...

While YTREWQ is in his hospital bed suffering from heart attack brought on by his rage response to the Occupy protesters who represent me and others, I am looking for my checkbook to send them some love...for something: representing my warm arse that appreciates their actions on my behalf.

Are you a troll, paid by the 1% to discredit a badly needed movement to recapture democracy from the clutches of corporate tyranny or are you just stupid?

Kindly note that any of these Fleabagger anarchists will use the fake argument that you are a paid blog commenter by some big evil corporation if you say anything against them. Oh yeah? Where's MY money!

I can't stand the filthy lot of them. I am also the 99% and I agree with NOTHING these troglodytes are allegedly protesting for. EVERYTHING they have in their wretched lives was made by some big evil corporation. If they don't like it, then they can pack their bags and go live in some remote area where they are free to build their own shelters, their own computers, grow and kill and cook their own food, and live happily ever after.

I for one am SICK of them.

Occupy is here to stay! Get use to it!

"A hungry man Is a angry man." Bob Marley

@Mike X.

I went to the 99 site as you suggested. I did NOT see anything in their PLAN that said they would trespass or destroy property. I did see where they would ELECT delegates for a General Assembly. So let me ask you this,How's the campaign/election going? How many candidates do they have and have YOU chosen one to vote for?

Does anyone know how the campaign/election is going? It seems to me that they are spending more time OCCUPYING (demonstrating) and less time following their PLAN (campaigning).

Mike X talks about 'thinking for yourself' and yet almost every word and phrase he uses parrots tired left-wing propaganda. In fact he may not even be real - his writing sounds like computer-generated slogans. "Tool of corporate propaganda," give me a freakin' break.

Honestly, if these protesters spent as much time working on finding a job, career, or pursuing a higher education the world would be a better place. All they have proven is that they can turn public parks into unsanitary tent towns and and be a public nuisance for those people that actually have jobs to go to. Blocking buildings, ports, and other places of employment do nothing than put out those folks that are trying to earn there way in today's society. With that, @!$%# YOU OWS!

Allow me to try to counter the fount of ignorance here.

First, I do not like Obama. I've never liked Obama and never bought the whole 'hope crap'. Obama is a consummate politician who beat the Clintons at their own game, in their own backyard. You don't pull that off by being an outsider, you do it by being in the belly of the beast.

At the same time, it is hard not falling on the floor laughing when I hear people calling him a 'socialist'. I know this is an antiquated term for most people here, but on a good day Obama is a 'Rockefeller Republican'. That the conservative movement has so skewed the 'center' post-Reagan that anyone could consider Obama anything other than 'right-center' is frightening.

I am one of the 50% who do not pay taxes. I started working at 17. 14 if you include the paper route, but I don't count that because I didn't have to pay Social Security. Every single one of the paychecks I received over that last fifty+ years took out money for Social Security. I have owned a small business and had to pay for the Social Security of others, not to mention paying their health care, because it was the right thing to do. Paying for my or others Social Security was neither my choice nor preference. But having paid into Social Security, irregardless of my will, for over fifty years, I'm damned if some young punk is going to call me a free loader. The only reason I'm not working now is because cancer robbed me of that ability.

The right wing is in love with that statistic. They banter it around as though somehow 50% of the country is stealing from the other 50%. God forbid they put it in terms of money rather than people. Then you would see that the vast majority of MONEY does not pay it's far share, totally irrespective of people. Of course the fact that the vast majority of the 50% are retirees like me, who spent a lifetime paying into the system; the working poor who don't make enough to be taxed; and people with severe disabilities, who have no choice, is something they don't want to talk about. They also don't want to talk about the fact that Social Security has a cap and that multi-millionaires don't pay after a certain point. The last thing they want to talk about is the fact that if that cap were lifted, that this and this alone would finance Social Security into the next century, with no reduction in benefits.

OWS: disorganized, fractionalized, dirty, unwashed, unemployed? So what?

In 1966 a disorganized, dirty, unemployed group took to the streets to protest social inequality and the war machine. They clashed with police, held demonstrations and were written off in the press as 'unwashed hippies'. Less than two years later they were directly responsible for a sitting president deciding to not run for reelection.

Those who are not aware of history are doomed to repeat it.

Yeah Beev, better than hanging on Wall Street with all the wealthy sipping champagne from their balconies and looking down upon the unwashed masses...

So now we see just how tyrannical the OWS group can be. Mad at the world and going to punish a church for their own greed.

Man isn't that the truth Beev! That is where the real problem lies anyway, within our government. They are the ones that put the economy where it is today!

Beev, OWS protesters did camp out outside congresmen's offices inside the US Capital building. It just didn't get that much press (fishy, isn't it?)

If obama were to lose next year, you can bet your ass the OWS hippies will be on the white house lawn week 1

SacredFire

Are you joking? Have you any idea what Nancy Pelosi is worth?

From The Hill:

http://thehill.com/blogs/on-the-money/801-economy/166599-pelosis-net-worth-rises-62-percent-

Pelosi was worth at least $35.2 million in the 2010 calendar year, according to a financial disclosure report released Wednesday. She reported a minimum of $43.4 million in assets and about $8.2 million in liabilities.

For 2009, Pelosi reported a minimum net worth of $21.7 million.

In case you think I'm making it up, from the American Thinker:

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2011/10/does_millionaire_pelosi_want_to_pay_more_taxes.html

Pelosi was worth at least $35.2 million in the 2010 calendar year, according to a financial disclosure report released Wednesday. She reported a minimum of $43.4 million in assets and about $8.2 million in liabilities.

For 2009, Pelosi reported a minimum net worth of $21.7 million.

This was also reported in the on-line NY dailynews, rollcall.com, and the on-line San Francisco Chronicle, you know, a paper from her own state, among others. Is anyone ever going to do some simple research before shooting off cutesy comments?

Those numbers cant be true faeri, pelosi only cares about the poor and middle class, she doesnt know anything about the wealthy except how she hates them. Well thats all the rhetoric BS she spews anyhow.

lol

Hey Siara Delyn you need to spend some time reading the Bible rather than preaching Socialists propaganda – we do not need to ask what would Jesus do – he has made that clear.

Thessalonians 3:10-12:

"If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat. For we hear that some among you walk in idleness, not busy at work but busybodies. Now such persons we command and encourage in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their own work quietly and to earn their own living."

Fairie: they're all rich in Congress, so what's your point? You can pick out Pelosi; I can point lots of others on both sides of the aisle. So why is it then that only the Democrats are pushing for financial reform and making the wealthy pay their fair share? Why have the GoP made it their agenda to protect the wealthy? And please don't tell that they are the "job creators".

The GOP? They're job creators.

sacred, if dems keep saying they are for reform but never do anything to show for it except run theirs mouths about class warfare and point fingers, then why exactly do you believe them?

Sorry, but class warfare was started by your "job creators". It was their idea to fire half the country and hire 10% of China for slave wages. What OWS is doing is leveling the playing field. No matter how much the GOP wants to resist, the 1% will be paying for the damage they caused. Big banks are already shrinking as we speak. Goldman Sachs is posting record loses because they have no way to make money. Outsourcing was a very bad idea and markets are beginning to correct that. The debt that most conservatives are screaming about is directly proportional to the loss of American jobs. 99 weeks of unemployment will become 120 weeks and then 150 weeks and that is when socialism arrives. We can stop outsourcing and reverse that counterproductive, self-destructive policy by asking those who do it to pay employment benefits for every single worker they let go. This is very much like smoking and health insurance. Smoke all you want, but if you do, I will double your premium. Have a ball.

I agree Beev..... these people are just a bunch of lazy do nothings that have nothing better to do than protesting people that work hard and make money.... maybe they should try working for a change and find out they can do well too, but that is asking too much from these lazy slugs

Kmusic50- you hit the nail on the head.... Jesus would have nothing to do with the lazy protestors but he does pity the true poor. There are very few true poor in this country, but lots of lazy slugs that have nothing else to do but protest and raise hell..... and stink up the city.

Aaahhh, SacredFire! You proved my point about no research being done.

I only brought up Nancy's wealth because her name was mentioned first. I know there are plenty of wealthy elected officials on both sides of the aisles, in both houses. Here's the breakdown.

100 members in the Senate. 36 wealthy Dems, 30 wealthy Repubs

535 members in H. of Reps 261 wealthy members. I spent over an hour trying to find the breakdown no luck as of yet.

Their wealth is their net worth, a lot of it is in assets, so of course it's easy to support payroll tax cuts. The tax cuts come from a paycheck. You know from working at a job? As far as I know their only job from which they get a paycheck is from their elected positions. Their assets are houses, businesses, stocks, etc. With their net worth in the millions they can afford the increase, and I'm sure their accountants work magic with deductions.

Back to the article, the OWS should of planned in the beginning about places to stay. I thought Anonymous had been involved in the beginning and they're pretty good at planning. I salute them for what they did down south for one of their members. Maybe by asking nicely in the beginning OWS might of found more places that would let them camp and use their bathrooms,etc. And they still can't decide who to protest against. At the beginning Wall Street, now it's a wealthy church with a real estate empire. Hey, OWS that church also has a grant making organization, if you play nice, who knows, they might help.

This protest is really missing the wrong target. Wall St. isn't frightened of them and they are completely insane if they think anybody on Wall St. is going to actually give them money. But if they went to Washington and expressed their concerns there by months long protesting, who knows they might get results. As I wrote above quite a few of our representatives have money. From being invested. In stocks. They just better hitch a ride home for a bit when it's time to vote.

Here is something to chew on.

The great state of NY is currently looking at their income tax structure. Many years ago, the tax rate was as low as 2 percent and approx 6.75 for the higher end earners. There was once many brackets so that there was more fairness. However, over the years, this very liberal state managed by the democrats that swear to only care about the poor and middle class, ended up turning the income tax into more of a flat tax. So a guy making 40,000 is taxed at the same rate as the guy many consider rich. The low end was raised to 4 percent. As it turns out, the state provided somewhat for the lower income workers with a earned income credit to offset the 4 percent, but they nailed the middle class by lumping them in with the well off crowd and taxing them at the same rate. So the top got the benefit of not paying a higher tax rate while the middle class was expected to carry an equal burden.

My point is that both parties lacked basic math skills, and frankly basic moral values. I am certain many that then and now are aware of how unfair this tax system is and how much damage it has done and continues to do.

What was meant to be a progressive tax is really more a regressive tax.

Listen, I do not want to bash the rich. I wish for anybody to become rich and thus do not want to take away any incentives to better a family's well being. However, the rich didn't really need any help to stay rich. It was the middle class that got ignored and were silent too long. Frankly, I think the middle class which I consider to be those making 60,000 - 150,000 as a ballpark figure, unfortunately lived beyond their means using credit and now are certainly not in a place to pay even higher taxes. There is just no more wiggle room.

However, to say that the rich aren't paying their share is false. They are paying the bulk compared to their size. However, they are the ONLY group that has wiggle room and thus will be called upon to tolerate higher taxes. The IRS has reported that in 2009, that approx 14,000 1 percent filers did not pay any taxes. That means they found significant loopholes that most definitely need to be removed so those filers pay their fair share.

Looking into the future, the 50 percent that do not pay any federal taxes, will at some point need to be called upon to pay taxes or else the boat sinks as we are seeing in Europe. We simply cannot have half the workers not paying any federal taxes. No system can survive with those stats.

So a guy making 40,000 is taxed at the same rate as the guy many consider rich.

The situation you described can also result from a failure to index tax brackets for inflation. As we're seeing with the Alternative Minimum Tax, over years incomes that were considered to be quite high are becoming routine, thanks for inflation.

I agree with every thing you said. When I was able to work before I started having seizures that are causing memory and some speaking problems, when I was making $25,000 or so I loved tax time because I am one of those who have a hard time saving, so I used the tax refund as a way to do the restocking of clothes with holes, etc. The middle class is having a harder time and it isn't fair to them. Personally I'm in favor of a flat tax. Would it be better to have multiple levels for different income levels? Or would that no longer be called a flat tax?

As far as the rich not paying taxes, if you meant what I said about Washington rep's, I was only referring to what they are paid while in office.

It would be nice if everybody at least had enough to get by more than just a little, although some do/will need help not wasting it.

Would it be better to have multiple levels for different income levels? Or would that no longer be called a flat tax?

That's not a flat tax. You're basically describing our current tax system, where marginal income is taxed at different rates based on total income. For instance, if you were to make $75,000, that last dollar would be taxed at a higher rate than the last dollar that you made at $25,000. However, in both cases, that first $25,000 is taxed at the same rate. It is just the money made after $25,000 that is taxed more highly.

However, to say that the rich aren't paying their share is false. They are paying the bulk compared to their size. However, they are the ONLY group that has wiggle room and thus will be called upon to tolerate higher taxes. The IRS has reported that in 2009, that approx 14,000 1 percent filers did not pay any taxes. That means they found significant loopholes that most definitely need to be removed so those filers pay their fair share.

You do know if you loose money and don't have an income you don't pay taxes?

example in 2008 I loose $500,000 and in 2009 I loose $500,000 but in 2010 I make $1,000,000 and pay no taxes on that money because my "carry forward" looses offset my gains.

Barry-NJ

Yeah, that's what I thought.

Randy- No offense, but it's lose money, but you can lose your loose woman. :)

Of course the Jesus character would join the protesters. The only time he got pissed off and went all Hulk was when he got pissed off by BANKERS.

This site is just crawling with right wing sympathisers today isn't it. The fact is the rest of the world is watching these protests and wondering, why all the police crack downs against peaceful protesters..

In the eyes of the civilized world the New York City cops are beginning to resemble Syria’s so called ‘Security Forces’ and New York City Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg is beginning to resemble Syria’s dictator Bashar al-Assad..... sad but true.

Randy, Perhaps in the years that you lose $500,000, NY state should share in those losses at the same rate that you desire it to share in your $1,000,000 gain. That is pretty much the same as letting you carry the loss forward. Try to get your brain around that.

Some people care about the funniest stuff. Oh well, I guess thats just the way it is out there. Merry Christmas. The only thing about it all is, its funny how fast so many people got so goofy, they just don't get it anymore now days. Can it be drug use that made them like this? Then they did way too many. cey la vie

BigAl Las Vegas-I would think the Syrian people, if they could get news from the US would love it if they were only moved from their tents or pepper sprayed or jailed for a night or two.

From Bloomberg BusinessWeek 12-16-2011, "It was reported today that protesters were fired upon after Friday prayers and one was killed. The army sent reinforcements into the south where military defectors recently launched attacks on regime troops. Also thousands have been reported to have been killed in recent months." Although it is hard to get facts from Syria so the number could be higher or lower. If you've read and watched other coverage about Syria hopefully you'd realize the protests in New York are a cake walk compared to there.

I'm not really for either the protesters or Wall St. I have points I agree with from the protesters side, but if they can't take a little pain for what they stand for, I tend to lose more respect for them everyday. As for Wall St things need changing but this country needs money to run also. Maybe that's wishy-washy, but I don't care, I just follow my heart. So for now I'm following the news of the protests and keeping up with the campaigns, that's all I can physically do for now.

OWS are misguided if they think they can protest anywhere they want. There is such a thing as private property. Perhaps the reason they aren't aware of this is because they do not own anything. They don't just get to pick and choose where they build a campsite. If somebody wants to donate a space and assume responsibility for events that go wrong, then they can have a new spot to land on.

Nobody is in anyway trying to shut off their voice. However the rest of us should not be inconvenienced, nor threatened in anyway to accommodate them. Those that want to join the protest that support their agenda, should do so, but should not infringe on other's rights that do not share their agenda.

What I really object to and think is downright crazy is to shut off commerce in any way at all. In doing that, they may think they are hurting the 1 percent, but in reality they are hurting the other 99 percent in a big way. The 1 percent will survive. They are mobile. They have resources the rest of us do not have. They have savings. Most do not today.

Amen to the last paragraph.

youre right we need the 50 percent that arent paying income tax to make enough income that they have to pay tax.its seems romney is willing to start playing hard ball with the chinese and the job exporters.its about time some candidate did.protesting the puppets of the rich in washinton is pointless.ill bet it was quite a surprise to the puppet masters on wallstreet to find the protesters were smart enough to target the real cause of their grief.if you want jobs look at the only candidate to reinstall tariffs.watch as someone here starts making wal mart items.yes items will go up a little but americans will have jobs.or reelect president free trade/job exporter obama and watch america continue its decline

Actually it might be about time the voice of the people is brought back to the capital building, just about every time some large lobbying firm buys representation through some large donations to these peeps re-election campaigns. It's be a long time since the whole lot of them, Democrat OR Republican have even bothered to represent the people in this country at large....

And as to what would have been done in our fore father's past, such as around the time of the Revolutionary war, and also how much taxation without representation (such as the bulk of middle class individuals in our society feel they're being met with), getting fleeced, or things like the tea tax and the stamp tax; I would remind that it was the tea tax that precipitated the Boston Tea Party. Back in our great, great, great, how many ever times removed grandfathers day, they would have tarred and feathered people for some of the nonsense which resulted in them finally declaring independence in 1776. But then not everyone in those days was the type to roll over and take it all; albeit much that they did blame King George for, was in fact acts of parliment.

And the bankers, have their own part also, such as BofA moving their Merril derivatives over to the retail banking sector of their bank holding company following a downgrade by Moody's of those same derivatives, where in spite of sentiments against another bail out, the FDIC could be left having to insure (much to their chagrin, albeit with the blessing of the Federal Reserve on this one) these rather risky ventures in BofA's investment banking sector. The public wouldn't have even heard of the matter, if some didn't feel the matter SHOULD be made public. Hell those types, and the career politicians have each other's backs in much of this. They're both 2 sides of the same coin, in that they're both complicit in it all...

Now as to the churches, if chaplins are joining in on the protests, there might be a round about way they could allow this IF they speak behind the scenes with the pastors from the churches, and come to agreements. Certain protests in the UK met a first turn for eviction; but such order was stayed after the Arch Bishop of Cantebury weighed in. And he brought up the same question, what would Jesus have done, and who would he have sided with, in this one... Once the Arch Bishop spoke, the decision was made for the Anglican church there...

It is funny though, in reminiscing about a then vs now, with something like the soda tax some states keep trying to push, even after the voters vote no (by putting the matter back on the ballot again); how if people today were to have a Boston Soda Party, and start dumping the soda in the Boston harbor; they'd probably be charged with littering, or some violation of environmental laws that didn't exist in our ancestor's past. Now the idea that people like Thomas Jefferson could have been arrested by the very same government they helped to form, if they lived only a few hundred years latter, seems ironic in the least.

Students for a Democratic Society aka: SDS. Little group also tied in with the Weathermen, both groups advocating violence, so guess the anarchists and revolutionaries from the sixties are all alive and well and infesting OWS (why, call me surprised), bless their little hearts. I remember being asked to join the SDS, they were looking for little acolytes to learn how to make molotov cocktails and storm the college and set fires and what-all else that goes along with anarchists.

Amusing, no matter the time difference the same people keep repeating themselves. Noticed that OWS was rather violent at the ports, tossing rocks, rebar and bricks, gotta shut down the ports. They aren't about change, they are about destruction. They aren't about reform, they are about anarchy used as a tool to usher in the neo-Marxist drivel that they always espouse. Bless their little hearts and the folks sympathising with them are the Jane Fondas of the movement.

What is it about the OWS crowd, and their supporters, Obama, Pelosi, Reid and the dems that compels them not to have any respect for laws and the rights of others? The fact that the question has to be asked provides the answer.

Thugs have no respect for others. Pure and simple.

thugs LOL you must not know any.keep exporting jobs and making more americans dirt poor.youll see some first hand. there wont be any mistaking them as the smack you up side your head and take your wallet.laughing as they leave

Guess that's why Obama appointed Immelt his jobs czar. Immelt and his predecessor were the ones responsible for the great migration of American jobs overseas. Yep, the irony is thick.

Obama has never worked for a living, and is the prime free-loader.

Then rather than protesting and squatting, perhaps the OWS crowd should get a clue as to the real sources of corruption. The Federal Government and its minions. Asking the government to create 'fairness' is like asking a child molester to babysit.

Because, Kevin, they don't have a clue what they're about. And, if you're "suffering", get off your butt and help yourself.

And Stanmyman... do you have any idea what it is like for people to lose homes, jobs etc. ??

Guess not... because if you did you would have a boat load of compassion.

People like you make me laugh.

Wait until your turn comes and it will.

I don't feel upset answering for Stan. I lost my job for 3 years. I am a Type 1 Diabetic (WITHOUT INSURANCE IF I DON"T HAVE A JOB). I saved before! I bought my house on my terms. I still have a house for my family (IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA!!).

Do something for yourself, cause the one thing that we all should have learned from this mess is that you need to provide for yourselves!

Because OWS is obama Foot-Soldiers, miss guided like everything else in this Administration...

Kevin, no one is forcing you to invest in Wall Street... What have they done to you directly? You people are just a bunch of lazy idiots that want to blame y our own laziness on someone else. Heck, I was a blue collar worker all my life and didnt make much money, but did save. I didnt have to have the newest cars and the fancy clothes, but saved my money. So what am i now??? I am an enemy of obama because i was thrifty, and anyone of you that listens to that communist elitists that spends your money like water and is laughing all the way to the bank is absolutely crazy.

Sounds like you have been buying too many losing stocks.

Why is that not your problem?

Get a life.

I had a recent encounter with a college student I once knew about 5 years ago. The young man was the typical student today that was only interested in girls, drugs and liquor. He was enrolled in a liberal arts college going nowhere fast. He was one of millions of youth today enrolled in college programs that will never, ever get them a good paying job. Instead they will be saddled with high debt, and frankly feeling pretty badly about the decisions they made. This young man is now enrolled in a program that is right for the times. He will get a job because he is actually learning skills. He knows now he is doing the right thing. He is excited and no longer buying into the notion that a liberal arts degree will get him a good paying job. He did his research and is on the right path.

This is what the OWS group needs to do . They need a reality check before it is too late for them and they become just a statistic.

"Trinity Church has provided the protesters with meeting rooms and use of their neighborhood center but is opposed to having them stay at the Duarte Square lot. An attempt to move in there on Nov. 15 was rejected by the church", so about a dozen OWS members climbed over the fence and attempted to Occupy the Duarte Square lot anyway.

The Church had provided them a free meeting space and use of their center...but the Occupiers (in a classic example of biting the hand that feeds you) took what they were given and demanded more, and when they didn't get more they tried to take it...is there no limit to the Occupier's GREED?.....I think not!

Hmmm..... Kenn, I think they were concerned that the Church would've cornered them into a position where a few things could occur:

1)Genocide - highly unlikely and not safely possible without a gigantic coverup.

2)Mass arrests - This would occur by promising them a free gathering spot and then turning around and stabbing them in the back, calling in cops to arrest them. A bit more likely than the first, but still rare and would have negative consequences for the Church being traitors.

3)Momentum - OWS was probably worried that the momentum wouldn't be sufficient enough for the big names to care (said big names have selective hearing and only respond to these words: Money, Obama, Kill Latino, Kill Islam, Steal Oil, Congress, Perry/Romney/Bachmann, Jesus, God, Slaves).

Right now, OWS has to be as paranoid as possible in case the government sets a trap which will end their movement and possibly outlaw/punish any further outcry. This is war on a vocal and verbal scale - who will win depends on how loud the outcry is.

theboys,

According to the Wall Street Journal, people who graduate with liberal arts degrees have an unemployment rate lower than the national average and about what many engineering fields are at. Just sayin'.

Pragmatic ... people like "theboys" can't help. They hear the word "liberal" and assume that it must be bad.

The more the city refuses to allow them to exercise their first amendment rights, preventing lawful protests, and then sending the arrested to classes on what the First Amendment means (read: re-education camps. They're not doing anything illegal, these classes can only be seen as propaganda), the more you're going to see the protestors having to move to other places where they're less welcome.

As for moving straight to NYSE, they've been protesting in clear view of the actual financial district for quite some time, until they were pulled from the place they were supposed to be.

And finally, the protestors know exactly what they're protesting. If you honestly think they're just a hodge-podge of intangential ideas, you're watching Fox News, who are actively trying to discredit the movement because it's antithetical to their corporative message. The main point is and has been since the beginning that allowing business interests to buy politicians is un-democratic and anti-capitalist. And the ensuing disparity of wealth because of the way the Wall St bankers and largest corporations creates an unsustainable economic model. There are a myriad of other messages to be found, but they all believe in that much, and that's what the focus really is. If you don't know that by now, you never wanted to know what they're trying to do.

The people of OWS are delusional and have brought unknowing sheep to follow them. The 99% that they refer to in their pathetic cries are really themselves. This has been a contrived movement sponsored by the same socialists that got our from nowhere president elected. Wake up people, you are nothing but pawns in a game to subvert a great nation. If you want equality move to another country or else get a job like the real 99%.

It's YOU who is delusional Nitpicker43 - not the previous post by "ded Grimley". The following will be your fate when this country goes into Chaos.

ZEN: BODHISATTVA (by Dick Suthpen).
The silence is broken by the s-s-wish of the Samurai sword severing illusions
and it rolls across the floor leaving a bloody trail of -- ~--~~-^_~~ -- ~--~~-^_~~ truth

The Beev-2396805 "NO...the OWS crowd needs to migrate to where their true fans are; Pelosi and Obama. Set up camp outside Congress, and the back yard "west lawn" of the White House. You are welcome there by you biggest supporters."

Good point. No private property owner in their right mind would want them on their property with the potential liability that it would entail. Who wants to be sued whenever something bad happens on their property? There are probably many lawyers following what's happening hoping for an easy fast buck lawsuit against property owners, and with some of the 99'rs looking for trouble, it would be a lawyers dream.

good post grimley

dEd — how is climbing over a fence to occupy church property expressing 1st amendment rights?

Disparity of wealth? Of course there is! When in the history of man wasn't there? When in the history of man did any redistribution of wealth have any long lasting affects or didn't still develop an elite societal class?

For those of wealth or power, if one didn't inherit it then they developed the skill sets to achieve it. Why do those without wealth feel that they are entitled to it?

Interesting on how you want to focus on business, do you think that government can do a better job of creating higher pay across the board and still have adequate demand for what is produced?

I doubt that the occupiers are stupid but they do seem to be naive on what their roles should be in society or what they can expect when there are 4 or more applicants per available job. I doubt anyone will say recessions are fair or without heartbreak.

"This whole occupation has been a lesson in freedom for me," said Ashley Perry, 24, who traveled from her home in Tampa, Fla., to support her New York counterparts. "If you still think that you have your First Amendment rights, go out and try to express them… and see how long it takes for someone to come and shut you down -- it will happen quickly."

OK, lemme see, First Amendment, that's this one right?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Hmmmm, I don't see the words seize, occupy, trespass, vandalize, squat, reside, conquer, invade, overrun or take possession.

Peaceably assemble does not allow you to ruin, damage, destroy or otherwise harm the location you have your assembly at.

These useful idiots need to take a page out of the TEA Party's movement.

First of all have a clear and concise concern your movement is against.

1. Taxed enough already.

2. Fiscal responsibility.

3. Constitutionally limited government.

4. Free-market principles.

The TEA Party held rally's and paid for their permits, peacefully assembled, didn't promote violence, did not try to take over the assembled area and left the location cleaner than when they got there.

They created an awareness not seen in our country for decades. Peacefully, intelligently and with a stated purpose.

These "occupiers" have no idea what they want. This is simply a much scaled down version of the embarrassment that was the "Vietnam War Protest" and the anti-establishment idiocy of the 60's and 70's.

Very good post dEd Grimley, “the demonstrators know exactly what they demonstrating about”, but they have not expressed it intellectually; --- they want --- SOCIAL JUSTIS ---.

I know, the word “social” is a dirty word in America, (that is because US Capitalism is anti-social) This prejudice is not present in Europe and the strongest of European country, Germany, is run by a “Social-Democratic Government”. ---- Europe as well as the US is headed for a time of Chaos, Germany is not.

-------- What is the SIGNIFICANCE of these Word-wide OWS demonstrations?------
Here are the Prophetic words by Tom Friedman, the famous journalist with “The New York Times” ::
“Now let me say that in English: the European Union is cracking up. The Arab world is cracking up. China’s growth model is under pressure and America’s credit-driven capitalist model has suffered a warning [major] heart attack and needs a total rethink. Recasting any one of these alone would be huge. Doing all four at once — when the world has never been more interconnected - is mind-boggling.
--- We are again present at the creation - but of what?

-------- [ Never in the history of modern man has such a global event ever happened ] -----

As for America, we’ve thrived in recent decades with a “credit-consumption-led economy”, whereby we maintained a middle class by using more steroids (easy credit, subprime mortgages and construction work) and less muscle-building (education, skill-building and innovation). It’s put us in a deep hole, and the only way to dig out now is a new, hybrid politics that mixes spending cuts, tax increases, tax reform and investments in infrastructure, education, research [innovation] and production. But that mix is not the agenda of either party. Either our two parties find a way to collaborate in the center around this new hybrid politics, or a third party is going to emerge
-------— or we’re stuck and the pain will just get worse”.

[ Of the three demanded activities, education, skill-building and innovation, –- none is financially or otherwise supported by our present Government. --- This omission is an act of National-suicide.]

FreedomRingsLoud, I don't think that you're getting the message. The Occupiers are a much more peaceful crowd than the Tea Baggers-er, Partiers who show up to their rallies with GUNS. And sometimes the actions you have stated are neccessary. Did Gandhi ask for a permission slip from the British to gain India's independence. Of course not. Revolutions do not need the approval of those in charge. We have only seen the police be violent towards the protesters, with the UC Davis spraying and what not. I stand with the 99%, and I am proud to. Only when they openly come out with shotguns and listening to Sarah Palin will I change my mind.

*Sigh*
Ok, I had a longer post, and it cleared out all of the sudden, so I'm going to recap in brief:

The OWS were perfectly within their rights, and now they've been forced to look elsewhere to protest after their legal protests were broken up. The only other option is to not protest at this point, and they have far too much conviction in their cause for that.

The disparity of wealth at this current point in time is unsustainable, with the upper 1%'s income growing at an average rate of 275%, while the middle class' average income hasn't changed in decades, while inflation has still continued to occur. They're LOSING money.

The heart of my post was how the banks got their money by manipulating the system and changing it for their sole benefit, while taking money directly from the pockets of the middle class without creating any sort of usable product. It was much more powerful last time, but I'm not going to be troubled to write the whole thing down again since internet arguments have never changed anyone's mind ever anyway. But 1 thing that I liked was comparing what the banks did to a cat burglar petitioning the local government to make it so that he could steal whatever he wanted from anyone he wanted as long as he didn't break anything to get into the house.

My focus on the government would be that what they've done is stepped BACK their role in regulation, and written (actually, written by lobbyists most of the time) regulations that allow various businesses to do certain things that benefit themselves to the damage of the rest of society, when that's precisely what the government exists to do - protect the public.

The way CEOs and business leaders are compensated is a further example of an unsustainable economy - very much what Adam Smith warned against in Theory of Moral Sentiments, and the "Invisible Hand of the Market", which originally referred to a business leader's conscience compelling them to do what was right for society, and to allow the middle and lower class to have sufficient wealth to purchase their products later. When you're paying a CEO $100m NOT to work for your company, because they've failed, that's just poor, poor spending. The wealthy of this country have no room to criticize the government for poor financial planning. Yes, the CEOs have contracts that entitle them to such ridiculous golden parachutes, but again, that's something that private industry is doing entirely wrong. If you have $100m to fire someone, you can give your mid to lower level employees a raise.

And final point, as I'm running out of time, I again point to gross over-compensation as the real reason there's such high unemployment, or at least the most controllable. When money is distributed more evenly, and more people have more money, rather than a few people have most of the money, they spend it in ways that allow other people to stay in business. Jobs aren't created because companies can afford to hire new employees, and jobs aren't created by a supply of a product or service, but rather the demand for them. A strong level of demand is created by a strong middle and lower class, not an incredibly strong and exclusive upper class. If you'd consider how many people you could employ for $100m... let's say you want to pay a few people $50k/year. That's 100 people for 20 years. You had to pay this one executive 100 people's jobs, for 20 years, to one guy, once, just to NOT work anymore. Because that's how you wrote their contract, sure, but again, the federal government does anything worse than that?

dEd Grimley

OK, lets get a few parts of your post straightened out, Kid.

The more the city refuses to allow them to exercise their first amendment rights,

First, no one is stopping you from speaking, however, when you jump a fence onto private property, that is TRESPASS which IS against the law. And yes, children,when you jump someone else's fence onto their property, you stand a very good chance of being arrested. Stay on the sidewalk and bitch all you want; unless you break the disturbing the peace laws (by banging drums and and blowing horns at 02:00) you can have at it as long as you want.

preventing lawful protests,

It is a lawful protest as long as you stay on the sidewalk and keep the noise down. Break the laws that are in place and you have lost the lawful part of protest and will be treated accordingly. Don't like the laws, get them changed, but if you just break them to make a point, then be prepared for what happens next.

and then sending the arrested to classes on what the First Amendment means (read: re-education camps.

No, they will be sent to court to pay for the fact that they broke the existing laws. But, just as an FYI, slogans from Chairman Mao's Little Red Book went out of style long before you were born; get a grip.

They're not doing anything illegal,

Wrong again, Skippy. Trespass is illegal (and in some states will get you shot).

the more you're going to see the protestors having to move to other places where they're less welcome.

Then they had better be prepared to spend more and more time in jail. Consider it accommodations and meals at the expense of the 97.5% that you DON'T REPRESENT with your crapping in the park.

As for moving straight to NYSE, they've been protesting in clear view of the actual financial district for quite some time, until they were pulled from the place they were supposed to be.

And where exactly were you supposed to be? Would that be Zuccotti Park? Would that be the privately owned park that you chose to camp in, and crap all over and the owners let you get away with it for 2 months. After you and your friends had made a mess out of it for 2 months the owners finally said enough. Is that where you were supposed to be?

Here is a clue kid; if you want change, then get one of your buddies to stand for office and get him / her elected (just like the Tea Party did) and then send them to Washington to change the rules. But, just beating drums and sounding horns at 02:00, bitching about the inequities of the world, and crapping in the parks will get you NOWHERE except arrested.

Cut the crap. The point is that you attempted to take over private property. THAT is not your RIGHT. I've never seen a more clueless bunch in my life.

The Cat of Nyan

The Occupiers are a much more peaceful crowd

LMAO!!!!

Really? The same peaceful crowds that have had murders, suicides, rapes, assaults, robberies, vandalism and hundreds of arrests?

There may have been a gun at a TEA Party rally but it wasn't used. There is a difference in case you can't comprehend that.

Your delusion is only surpassed by your hypocrisy

The arrests, my dear FreedomRingsLoud, is because the cops know how far they can go. They are merely pawns of a higher order, the lobbyists who control Washington. And this movement is made up of young people who want a better life and a better country before it's taken away from them by middle-aged white men at your Tea Parties. I don't hate either group, it's free speech. but when the youth of a nation cry out for reform, its power can only be matched by those who hate, such as YOU. And in the long run, the youth will succeed.

My dear FreedomRingsLoud, You have made your case wonderfully clear and concise enough for even the densest of minds to comprehend. I applaud you.

Another poster I am now a fan of is, Faerieschyld, for her sensibilities and willingness to research before she posts.

Big accolades to both of you.

@4.23

The first amendment isn't just the right to freedom of speech. It also guarantees the right peaceable assembly. The fact that you overlook that negates the rest of the nonsense in your first obnoxious, patronizing paragraphs.

Zucotti Park is private only in that it's owned by someone in particular. And they were only allowed to own it under the condition that it would be open to the public, and treated as a public park. They had every right to be there. And let's talk about the alleged "unsanitary conditions" that were mentioned, but never shown by any sort of media outlet. When you hear about how virtually every major protest in this movement was being broken up because of the same two word phrase, a phrase that has any number of different ways to verbally express, like "unsanitary conditions" (although that particular wording is very cleverly vague, and could be construed any number of different ways), it should throw up some red flags. That almost always means that there's a coordinated effort behind their attempts to, in this case, break up the protests.

You then go on to say, "Be more like the Tea Party"... It's funny, wasn't that that movement, that "grass roots" movement funded by a number of different conservative PACS and promoted exclusively by Fox News when it was first starting up, that had a problem with Wall Street? That they got bail outs and didn't give the money back? What have your "Tea Party" candidates been up to on that front? NOTHING, eh? The original message of the Tea Party has been completely whitewashed into any number of Conservative talking points. The Tea Party stands for two things right now, Jack and @!$%#. And they're done worrying about Jack. The name Tea Party has been applied to everything on the right, and most especially the things that contradict the seemingly libertarian ideals that it was supposedly started to do. The NDAA should have been completely antithetical to the idea of the take over of Big Government. What did the "Tea Party" do? Don't try to give me this line about a group that's nothing but a different way to say Republican as a model for political aptitude.

And if the fact that these people are being arrested for the act of protesting, which again, in the first amendment, I'm guessing you gloss over because you don't like their message, doesn't bother you, then I can't take your argument seriously. You're entirely partisan on the matter.

Kai-Thank you, I appreciate that.

You're welcome! :o)

No thanks Bob, --- I walked on water so long I forgot how to swim.

Your premise is BS and so is your conclusion

I agree, the Ows crowd would hit Christians next because they are mostly democrats that have been brainwashed by obamas lies and class warfare. Obama is the one that started all this class warfare crap and i blame the entire mess on obama. He has been in office for 3 years and has accomplished the division of the people in this country, promoted more ghettos to provide more votes for the party, has encouraged illegal aliens to maintain the Hispanic vote, and of course the blacks he has in his back pocket with all the lies to them, so we can only hope the people in this country will wake up and throw him out and turn this country around. I firmly believe his goal is to turn this country into another Communist country with a one party system. He sure is trying hard.

killer, Obama is not the one that started the class warfare. It has been going on long before him. That said, OWS is neither Democrat nor republican. They support fairness for all people, not beneficial breaks for the wealthy and screw the rest.

Let's face it, neither the Dems nor the Repubs care about the average American. Both sides represent the same coin.

Continue to resist! This soon-to-be 70 year old Grandma and Mom, and semi-retired American who's paid her dues over a lifetime. shall rejoin all of you in the spring when it has warmed up!

Whether anyone likes it or not, it's time for a major overhaul and yes I have an abode and take care of myself....naysayers, what's in your future or that of your children?

See you all on May Day --- si se, puede! Don't give up the dream.....

Peace ~ an Occupier from Seattle, WA

So Killerteam thinks only Republicans are Christians? Think again. And don't let your narrow view of religion blind you to what's around you. Oh, and shut off Fox News for a while. Your mind will thank you.

Hank, I won't deny that Republicans are not the only Christians. However, I will admit that being rich CAN allow one's view of religion to twist (notice my use of can: it's possible to resist this temptation, but those who shove the "I'm God" theology are usually rich themselves; not saying all are though).

In this case, it's a collective of individuals that twist Bible logic to allow it to say they are the Apostles/Messiah and that you must follow their version of the Bible, which may or may not say "Suck my cock and you will enter heaven; refuse and suffer in Hell" (note: This a gross exaggeration and totally does not equal what the Bible says, whether Mormon or otherwise.)

OWS has fears that the Church could betray them, due to how easily tempted some religious institutions are these days by money.

Why have several of you said that OWS is afraid that the church would betray them,when the church is the one that refused to let them OCCUPY the lot in the first place? You speak as though the church offered the lot and OWS refused.WRONG.

If the church wanted to betray them it would have said "Sure, you can OCCUPY our lot." then it could have closed the gate and called the cops,instead it refused to let them in.

When OWS was evicted from Zucotti Park, the church opened their doors to the movement. OWS used the church's facitilities to reorgazie their efforts. They were provided with a meeting room and other amenities so they could plan their next move. The church would incur too many liabilities if they allowed OWS to use the church grounds as an encampment.

Witness the events that occur with distressing frequency at OWS camps. If the Church wants a major lawsuit on its hands then, yeah, let them camp on Church property. When someone is killed or raped who do you think they'll go after, the Church which has money and is easily sued or some OWS vagrant?

Jordan, not ntirely true. Politicians only show caring in gaming votes every two years.

Fearmongering, that's all we get.

The 99%ers have rebuked the violence and illegal activity. They do not condone the atrosities. The people doing the violence and illegal activities aren't even claiming to be part of the 99%ers. In fact, they were thugs taking advantage of the distraction the 99%ers made.

And yet, it won't matter. Because FOX News will link any illegal act to the protestors. Sure, they'll condone the TEA party members kicking a woman into the streets but blast the 99%ers with any and all illegal activities near the protest.

The majority of mobile phones have cameras and I haven't seen anyone video of anyone having sex or taking a dump in the park. the only acts of violence I have seen where initiated by police. If the police stayed out of it, there wouldn't be any violence.

Once again, none of it matters. If you support the TEA party, you must condemn the occupiers. Disregard the fact that TEA and Occupy are practicing the same rights. Ignore common sense and blame the movement on derilects and vandals, homeless and unemployed. Ignore the 275% pay gap. Pretend you don't see the 600+ fillibusters on the House floor, containing your jobs bills. Shy away from the hypocracy that everything a democratic president does or thinks of doing, even if it was supported in the past, is immediately chastised and ridiculed.

Patriotism left with Bush.

The cleaning lady does that.

You must mean your wife. LOL you are too funny

As a matter of fact, my cleaning lady is a good example of providing for ones self and family. She is 51 years old. She is divorced. She cleans our house twice a week at $55 per visit. She has (I don't know the exact number) somewhere around 15-18 houses she does plus a realtor has her get new listing homes ready. She does pretty well because she works her butt off for her and her two daughters. She'll be getting a cash gift from us, as every year, of $250. She EARNS every dime.

wake up stainboy, those "drugs" you read about at Zuccotti Park were there for the professional medical staff to administer to the sick and injured of the neighborhood and the protest. The needles you saw on Fake News was a stunt to discredit the movement, portray them as dirty hippies looking for a handout. Read the99declaration.org or have someone read it to you and tell me this movement is all about lazy slugs looking for a handout. Get off your dumb ass and get educated before you continue to make yourselves look foolish in a public forum.

for the record, Princess Pelosi and the GoldmanSachs shill in the White House are NOT friends of the OWS movement. This is the kind of stupidity that emerges when you let people like Lush Rimbaugh do your thinking for you. For the sake of democracy, get informed!

why would the churches want anyone crapping on the American flag? Why would they want criminals around? Why would they want open sex in public? These people are nothing but typical democrat brats that have nothing else to do because the punks dont work.

I think that Trinity Church is being quite hypocritical. They were quite happy to lend moral and logistical support (meeting space) when the OWS crowd was occupying someone else's private property (Zuccotti Park IS private, with mandated public access). They're not quite so open-minded when it comes to their own property being occupied. Surprise!

MikeX,

You are nothing more than a Liberal mouthpiece that has no ability to think for your own. Otherwise, you'd quit blaming FOX News, like an IDIOT when reading and responding to something on MSNBC. That's the typical Liberal slant when faced with nothing in terms of facts, blame Fox or Rush Limbaugh, like idiots. No accountability for yourself. LOL.

Get your facts straight, there have been multitudes of drug arrests, violence arrests of THOSE at Zucatti Park. Saying those needles were plants is so idiotic dude. Go back to your village, they are missing their idiot.

Maybe YOU are the one needing an education, as you are missing one.

I think the church is missing an opportunity. Here you have a large number of people with nothing to do, a desire to cause positive change for the poor and down trodden, but lacking the leadership and guidance to do anything useful. Ready-made volunteers in need of a goal. The church could have been a champion of ending poverty with an army of volunteers. Poverty is the greatest societal ill of our time and ending it fits in with the teachings of Jesus.

im confused jerry.how can mikexbe a liberal mouth piece yet denounce president obama and nancy pelosi.sounds to me like he thinks for himself.you on the other hand sound word for word like limbaugh.could it be youre a dittohead.limbaugh says he will do your thinking for you.hes only asking for you to think for yourself.try it

Pragmatic: volunteering often entails working, sometimes using your hands and getting sweaty, that is not part of protesting.

pragmatic - LMAO at your conclusions. I grew up in the 60's and thought how great it was for LBJ and company to provide civil rights, wage war on poverty, create a great society and provide health care for the poor and elderly.

Well, it has been almost 50 years and all that written legislation since then has had minimal effects on creating a great society or defeating poverty. I am reminded of the individual who said 2000 years ago that the poor will be with us always.

JohnQ - limbaugh? I thought he was dead or at least retired. Care to share those links with us showing us how jerry copied him word for word?

The stinky children of the park return. And now they want a church to allow them to destroy their property, just like they have trashed every place they have "occupied". They need to go to the desert and have their stinkfest where they dont bother civilized people.

Sorry, Steve. The deserts are protected by the environmentalists.

What??? A false flag stage?

tt, I agree. The few major financial backers of our political leaders have our political leaders wraped around their fingers (including Obama). The press should investigate this and release the names and HOW they do this.

stanboy; yes, like Hitler had someone set fire to his own Reichstag building so the he can gain power and finish forming the Nazis. Take a history course.

Lt you know this how? Or is this your usual make up whatever post that I see from you.

I thought it was the unions that sent in agitators for OWS!

Tom, our churches actuate extensive charity work. Money spent on charity work is a tax write off.

Tom Joad, the real perversion in your post is found in your complete ignorance demonstrated by your misstating what the First Amendment actually says.

Be careful what you ask for because some of the elders of the civil rights movement supporting this OWS movement such as the REV. Jesse Jackson and the REV. Al Sharpton might then be required to disclose how they became millionaires and might have to start paying taxes on those millions. This to me is the ultimate irony, Jackson and Sharpton, millionaires, joining OWS to demand a church cave in to their demands.

I work for a store owned by cult owners who operate as a church. They pay no taxes, demand tithing from their flock of sheep (fools) and lead an opulent lifestyle, underpaying their help while living a life of pure hypocrisy at least if measured by the alleged christianity they purportedly represent. I don't like subsidizing their lifestyles anymore than I like subsidizing the wealthy, but the government does if for us anyway. In a land founded on the freedom of religion why do I have to subsidize them?
Why do taxpayers have to foot the bill for unnecessary wars for profit, subsidies and laws to protect the health care, banking and big oil rackets?

And how can you people shilling for the rich not see the reality that the working class is getting the shaft? Corporate welfare? Fine, they are the job creators, right? Welfare for your fellow American down on his luck, likely because the job creators took their jobs overseas to make a killing? Kick the dirty hippies to the curb!

Whatever happened to decency and compassion in America? We have become a nation of losers, morally and economically.

Get informed: the99declaration.org will open those closed minds if you have the guts to understand its premise.

Mikey, When you say we have become a nation of losers, I believe you know, first hand. Decency and compassion are alive and well, for those deserving.

Mike, move to Cuba to see what kind of a middle class is created by marxism.

Mike X.

I took you up on your challenge and read the 99 Declaration. Some I agree with, some I don't, and some of it is very naive.

Every election is funded publicly? Nice thought, wishful thinking. City, County, State and Federal? That can be pretty expensive. Every industry that makes paper,metal, (for signs) power for buildings and outdoor events, the building owners themselves, the cleaning up, they would all have to donate everything. I wonder if enough people care that much anymore

Here in WI during the teacher protests at Madison, the state capital building was left a mess and it cost the tax payers $300,000 to clean it all up. Not everyone was from WI. In Egypt after their first winning round of protests, you could see on TV as many of them cleaned up the square and guarded the musuem. I hope the 99 is not considering forcing the public to finance campaigns by law. They would end up being just as vilified as they're feelings are for Wall St.

Protection of the Planet. I can't see other countries letting the United States telling them their citizens will be criminally prosecuted for damaging the planet. That part will have to be for the US only. Ending ongoing wars with no end in site, depends on the war, but the troops do need to stay in Japan, S. Korea, Australia, and parts of Europe, esp. Germany because it's already a well set up staging area.

As for some of the rest, fair tax codes (done right, don't ask me how at this time I'm still thinking about that) term limits, getting rid of the Electoral College, eliminating perks for elected officials, no Internet censorship and health care for all, I love.

The part that puzzeled me, since we all want more jobs here is in the fair tax code sec.: Any corporation or entity that does business in the United States and generates income from that business in the United States shall be fully taxed on that income regardless of corporate domicile or they will be barred from earning their profits in the United States. That could prompt an overseas company to decide not to do any business here, either by selling or manufacturing, (there are some that do). The US is part of the world's economy and that has to be factored in somehow.

I would never want to be at those G-7, G-20 meetings, they have got to be worse than the meetings in Washington.

Tom joad and others... Just what does the government give to religious orders other than tax exemptions, police and fire protection?

This is the best post on this topic I have seen.

Bobby, hey its getting cold. I'm impressed OWS protesters have hung in there so long. I thought they would die out when winter set in. Instead they have grown like crazy throughout the country. This is serious stuff now and our govt. has become very intimidated by them.

But Wall Street and the money traders within the NYSE have not yet been intimidated by OWS. That's why OWS needs to protest directly within the NYSE

Your right about it getting cold out there. I see an occupy Disney World move coming.

Bobby, finally an OWS supporter

That's why OWS needs to protest directly within the NYSE

Why? What will that achieve? Most trading is done by computers, anyway. Frankly, I'm still trying to figure out their goals. "Ending greed on Wall Street" is very vague and isn't going to happen. Our financial system is based on greed. Many of their others goals seem to be based on a transfer of wealth that they didn't create.

I'll be more impressed when they develop specific recommendations for transparency in the financial world. For instance, full disclosure of holdings and public trading of ALL derivatives. Full disclosure of government loans to financial institutions, etc... Transparency is the key. Everything else will take care of itself. But, that's too simple for the OWS crowd to accept.

More silly stuff!

------- The Good, the Bad --- and the Ugly American! ---
---- Marching Song for Johnny America in year 2006 --- (Jst for Fun)

Lighten up says he,
Lighten up says he,
Lighten up says Johnny Carree
Look at how happy I am to be and on a role,
For life is cheep and so much fun on Rent-control
!

And the 2011 update for the OWS by the “1 percent-New York Police”

Lighten up says he,
Lighten up says he,
For now we’re coming for Yeh ---
Mr. American Johnny Carree- He, He, He.

We too need all the fun you predict
and now we will have it on Yeh ---
in your own Rent –- control district

He, He, He !

ZEN: BODHISATTVA (by Dick Suthpen).
The silence is broken by the s-s-wish of the Samurai sword severing illusions
and it rolls across the floor leaving a bloody trail of -- ~--~~-^_~~ -- ~--~~-^_~~ truth

I am waiting for your cat to get off your keyboard sometime today

Commode Commander, You live alone, don't you? (I don't like cats.)

is he really a commode commander? Good grief, he should go work for the occupy group and clean up their @!$%# after they crap in the streets..... would give him a good "shovel ready job" too..... obama would love him.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

- First Amendment to the United States Constitution

Pray tell, what was out of context in that?

Yeah, and wherein does it state that said 'peaceful assembly' may tear down fencing and squat and destroy said property and make no attempt to recompense said property owner for damages? Wherein in said document does it state that one may invade private property without the express permission of the property owner? Something about criminal trespass comes to mind.

Toasty

What do you think about this? Is tearing down fences and trespassing on private property somehow keeping the peace?

Freedom of Assembly Clause restrictions

The right to assemble is not an absolute right. There are some restrictions on this right as there are with other rights. The right to assemble is not as strongly protected by the government as other rights, such as the freedom of speech. This is because groups that assemble often do so, not with just speech, but with some type of conduct, such as picketing, protesting, marching or gathering in a park, which may disrupt the peace.

The courts have ruled that, while it is the responsibility of the government to protect the people's right to assemble, it is also the government's responsibility to keep the peace. Because of this, the courts have allowed governments to make reasonable restrictions on the time, place and manner of these assemblies. The government may place restrictions on the right to assemble that will maintain law and order, facilitate traffic, protect private property and reduce noise congestion.

http://www.revolutionary-war-and-beyond.com/freedom-of-assembly-clause.html#ixzz1cHs37Gka

You really like that website, I've noticed.

And you really dont, because it shoots your theory that you can assemble anytime, anywhere you want, all to hell. You pick and choose the parts of the First Amendment that agree with you and ignore the ones that dont.

david, OWS protesters are not going to go away. They instead will continue to grow (as has been demonstrated). They're mass of population will act to give them support. This church giving them a place to stay is a MAJOR, MAJOR development. It is only logical that many other churches will follow suit.

This OWS actions are a SERIOUS social movement and we need to understand it as such now

What a load of crap. Serious social movement? More like a bowel movement.

stan, I take it that I scared the crap out of you

Kevin the fact is that OWS has become one gigantic joke. Much of what would be considered liberal or progressive are trying as hard as they can to stay away from you . When your name becomes the issue and not the issue itself you have lost your cause.

Kevin, your type does'nt scare me or anyone I know. What are you gonna do, b^^w me to death?

At least OWS isn't overtly violent like the Tea Party Movement. Domestic terrorism is the Tea Party MO...

Yes KEVIN-74942,

I from a post of Old-Doc [for you 1% here]
[ The French revolution tells us that] when a society becomes divided into an aristocracy and commoners, historically the aristocracy seldom sees trouble coming and never seems to understand that their greed is the driving force. Only when their "head is in the guillotine" do they seem to want to compromise, which is of course much too late. We are currently at a tipping point in this country where the aristocracy [the 1% or 2%] has begun demonizing workers, teachers, civil servants, students and the poor. The unemployment rate for returning veterans [well trained for killing] currently exceeds 12%. I suggest you discourage your peers [and yourself] from comments like "Let them eat cake", --- know what I mean?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---- Has any major political change EVER happened without VIOLENCE? -----

Unemployment is now over 15%, (real total, over 40 Million?) and it will soon out number the National Guard and the regular Army --- and these will not shoot at their own families and other civilians anyways --- ( Only the, totally out numbered, “Police” might do so initially, (but will be hunted down by street Gangs in the end)

If nothing is being done by the Federal Government to help the 45% of American families that are now close to starving and freezing to death this winter. There will be Chaos and the US union will break-up and the Federal politicians will try to flee the country. The ones who are a little late for that will be hung on the many tall street lamps circling the Washington Beltway. It’s an ancient tradition of the Roman Empire, but then they had to use tall trees on the streets leading to Rome. (What a great photo opportunity for the news media?) The “States” will then be run by Street and Country-gangs, which you might have to join to feed your family. (Buy some more ammunition for your gun, if you can spare the money.) Most of the readers here have never seen REAL violence or chaos, which is apparently needed to bring about any significant Change and Justice for our country.

Tea party... domestic terrorists? Come on toasty, you can't provide legitament links to justify what you say. Even the woman who was pushed to the ground and stepped on was halted from further injury bu other teapartiers.

BTW - got the arrest counts (for any infraction) at tea party rallys vs OWS. Surely you want to show us that you know what you are talking about, right?

You've never heard of Lauren Valle? How about one of your guys cutting the gas line of an elected official? Or when a particularly anti-tax teabagger flew a plane into a government building? Or when one of your guys went on a Glenn Beck-inspired rampage in California. Or when teabaggers in my state started threatening elected officials. Or threatened to murder their CHILDREN. Surely you remember when one of your guys murdered my neighbor and tried to assassinate my congresswoman.

And yes, I have MANY more examples of Tea Party violence and intimidation. You need but ask.

Harry, I doubt that many, if any, of the posters here are part of the 1%.

Yep, anarchy and chaos can be an outcome facing Americas future. The more likely scenario suggest that it will occur against the government as the people realize that in order to be re-elected they made promises that over the long term couldn't be met.

As for the french revolution that worked out well for the poor, right?

Well toasty I asked and you have yet to deliver the links or the arrest totals. Of course you have an escape route if you have the intelligence to take it. It all revolves around human individuality and common sense.

Interesting, laughner was a teabagger, how droll, did you read that on think progressive? A teabagger murdered your neighbor, that should be an easy local news link to provide giving the murderers political affliliation.

I'll do you one better: his own words. Pure Tea Party drivel.

Oh, and for the record, links were provided. They are the words in my post that are underlined, and when you put your mouse cursor over them it turns into a little hand pointing.

Their 15 minutes are over, now they are nothing but smelly, unemployable nuisances.

OK toasty, I turned the brightness down and saw the underlines. I already brought up valle in post 14.8. The cut gas line assumes that a tea party supporter did it based on an address being given. Too bad the person wasn't caught to prove the affiliation.

Threats made? again your links offer no hard evidence for tea party supported threats, but did mention that callers did make mention of their concerns and even gave their namea. It sure sucks when anonymous callers make threats.

Regarding your neighbor giffords and others shooting event. To date no evidence has been shown linking lougner to the tea party or that the tea party sanctioned the shooting. Not even the use of crosshairs can be shown to establish the link, except perhaps in your own mind.

Basically, you have not shown that the tea party condones or promotes domestic terrorism. All you have shown is that there are individuals out there who have no problem with breaking the law. When was the time you opened a major paper that didn't mention murder or theft or assault, etc. Were they all tea party members as well. Nice to know that even obama likes to make threats as well, and he is POTUS. Therein lies the escape clause.

BTW -I have never attended a tea party rally or been asked to go to one or even had a tea party candidate try to represent my district

There is no "Tea Party," Am. It's not a singular organization. It's a political leaning, and as such a person doesn't need card-carrying membership to be a part of it.

What, the teaparty doesn't exist? Then why are you always attacking a non-existant entity? Boxing at shadows?

Toasty...your a liar and a moron. Show proof of 1 violent act at a tea party rally. Domestic terrorism? You relly need your meds peewee

Toasty...your a liar and a moron. Show proof of 1 violent act at a tea party rally. Domestic terrorism? You relly need your meds peewee

While I don't consider that post to be of any merit whatsoever, I've got to point out how ridiculous a person who calls others a "moron" is, when they can't use the proper form of "You're", or how to spell "Really".

And I'm not aware of any sort of meds that would cure someone of being a liar or a moron, so I'm not sure which "meds" you're recommending that the person you're addressing should take. Unless you're trying to spout off a rather childish, and more importantly, inappropriate cliché.

Niether do the words "Christian or Jesus"

I thank God for that and I am Christian. I would not want the government who or what to believe in. Some of these born again Christians need to think about that.

That's because "government shall establish no religion" implies there is no Church to separate.

Fact check Lt Commander

See how many time God and a higher power are mentioned

Nancy, with the growth and support of this OWS movement, "interpretation" of our constitution may become more of an "actuation"

Dude, there is no better definition of "separation of church and state" than the Establishment Clause. Hell, just TRY to think of a better one.

Nancy #15 and Toasty #15.4,

Nancy, you're correct, the phrase "separation of church and state" is not mentioned in the Constitution itself. However, it is mentioned in numerous Supreme Court decisions that have interpreted or construed the Establishment Clause. Moreover, there's a principle in the law that appellate court decisions are superior to the documents the decisions construe, so, as a practical matter, the phrase has been made a part of the First Amendment jurisprudence since 1878. That was the year of the Reynolds decision discussed below.

Toasty, according to the United States Supreme Court, the establishment clause wasn't a definition of "separation of church and state," but rather its intended result, relying on what Thomas Jefferson had written at the time the clause was being debated: "Mr. Jefferson afterwards, in reply to an address to him by a committee of the Danbury Baptist Association (8 id. 113), took occasion to say: ‘Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship; that the legislative powers of the government reach actions only, and not opinions,-I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore man to all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.'" Reynolds v. United States, 98 U.S. 145, 164 (1878) (emphasis added).

"The ‘establishment of religion’ clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever form they may adopt to teach or practice religion. Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa. In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect ‘a wall of separation between Church and State.'" Ewing v. Board of Educ, 330 U.S. 1, 15-16 (1947)(emphasis added).

So, according to our Supreme Court, which is the final arbiter as to what the Constitution means, see Madison v. Marbury 5 U.S. 137 (1803), the Establishment Clause was designed to erect or build a high wall separating Church and State. This is true despite the fact that the text of the First Amendment itself contains no language to that effect.

Michael L. Marowitz
J.D., J.S.M. (Master's Degree, Stanford Law School, with emphasis on Constitutional Law)

Thank you for agreeing with me, Michael.

As Christians we certainly do not condone @!$%#ting in the street, open sex, drugs, drunkeness, vile language, that the OWS stand for either. The entire democrat party is turning into an anti Christian hate group, and that is the main reason we want nothing to do with them. We dont bed down with money lenders and no one says you have to either.... the problem is you people dont know what you want, you just want free stuff without working...... get a job

Keep on believing Rush Limbaugh. I know I always listen to those trying to discredit a movement rather than the movement itself on what they stand for. It's only logical. In fact, I only listen to Democrats about Republicans and vice versa. I find it's so good for the soul to believe only what bad things are said about any group. Don't you?

Pablo, I recall nothing within the old or new testament that said it was a sin to have wealth or that God didn't want his people (jews) to prosper. Or that God through Christ didn't want those that believed in God thru Christ shouldn't prosper on earth as well.

Well, lets see...

Besides the meek inheriting the earth, there's the camel through the eye of a needle part.

You can prosper like Job. Or like David. We will have to ignore every single apostle of course, none were wealthy save one and all were instructed to give up their worldly goods and follow Him.

Of course, you would have to deny the Bible entirely because it is a socialistic book. Why, it even tells you to feed the hungry, dress the naked, and treat everyone like you would treat Jesus, you know, like do unto others...?

Are you sure you don't remember reading about any of that? Perhaps a refresher course is needed.

Uh, socialism as it is overused in the current venacular has no part in the Bible. Note that Christ mentioned that the poor would always be with us, but that He would not. He preached compassion and love, He did not preach welfare from cradle to grave or taking by force. Government mandated 'charity' is not charity, it is theft. Rather than attempting to put a label on the Bible, perhaps you should read it instead.

mygirl1

I read the first sentence and struggled through the rest. Where did you get welfare from cradle to grave from my post? I didn't post anything about government mandated charity. Looking over the other posts, nobody else did either.

Did I not just mention several examples of the Bible? Then you suggest I read it. Obviously, one of us doesn't understand the other here.

Are you trying to say the Bible is a conservative book? Any biblical scholar knows the socialistic intent of the Bible. The one for all, all for one motto of the scriptures is indeed socialistic views.

Now, I'm not sure why government got involved in your conversation regarding the socialistic book of the Bible. It certainly wasn't in mine.

But to reiterate, not only does socialism have a part in the Bible, it is its very foundation.

If it's free, they want it.

If it's not free they'll just take it anyways.

Listened to an interview on PBS with one of the protesters. She said that since the Church wasn't using it they (the Occupiers) deserved it and were going to 'take' it regardless. Seems the entitlement mentality is alive and well. Under their theory of ownership, if you're not using it (in their estimation) then they should essentially steal it. Nothing says social betterment and freedom like theft, squatting and destruction.

The check's in the mail, Steve.

lol ...you are just now wondering .....

-------- What is the SIGNIFICANCE of these Word-wide OWS demonstrations?------
Here are the Prophetic words by Tom Friedman, the famous journalist with “The New York Times” ::
“Now let me say that in English: the European Union is cracking up. The Arab world is cracking up. China’s growth model is under pressure and America’s credit-driven capitalist model has suffered a warning [major] heart attack and needs a total rethink. Recasting any one of these alone would be huge. Doing all four at once — when the world has never been more interconnected - is mind-boggling.
We are again present at the creation - but of what? --- (It’s an unknown for any “creation” )

-------- [ Never in the history of modern man has such a global event ever happened ] -----

As for America, we’ve thrived in recent decades with a “credit-consumption-led economy”, whereby we maintained a middle class by using more steroids (easy credit, subprime mortgages and construction work) and less muscle-building (education, skill-building and innovation). It’s put us in a deep hole, and the only way to dig out now is a new, hybrid politics that mixes spending cuts, tax increases, tax reform and investments in infrastructure, education, research [innovation] and production. But that mix is not the agenda of either party. Either our two parties find a way to collaborate in the center around this new hybrid politics, or a third party is going to emerge
-------— or we’re stuck and the pain will just get worse”.

[ Of the three demanded activities, education, skill-building and innovation, –- none is financially or otherwise supported by our present Government. --- This omission is an act of National-suicide.]

Well harry, We have thrown lots of cash at education, especially k-12 with diminishing results. Seems that many students don't care about acheivement or at least don't want to work for it. Without the desire to learn, skill building and innovation will suffer as well.

History has shown us that those who are willing to put forth the effort have the best chance for desired skill sets and innovation. Not a quarentee, but just the opportunity. Yep, government can't do it with their present philosophy on more $$$ will solve the problem.

Hey, we have created the entitlement generation, one that believes they deserve whatever simply becuase they exist. I exist, therefor you must take care of and provide for me. Nowhere in that mindset is there any example of striving for betterment. Nope, in that mindset all that exists is a demand, gimme, gimme or I'll take it. Hmmm, perhaps the bullying that seems so prevalent of late is a direct result of this mindset.

Way to miss their point.

The conservatives felt it was their right to deny abortions and birth control, the GOP probably forced them to live, therefore the GOP can take care of em.

If you're looking at a generation that feels entitled, look at the Baby Boomers, who think that an economy can survive with the average CEO pay at 500 times their workers, when countries that are running successful economies at the moment, like Germany, are at about 50 times.

If anyone feels "entitled", its the people who think that this system could ever possibly work.

They want people to feel sorry for them. This country is awash in self-pity right now, and they are representative.

There must be somebody responsible for their lack of success in life, and it couldn't possibly be them.

The OWS wants “Social Justice” (This is not a dirty word in Europe,where Germany, the strongest country is run that way and will sdurvive.)

from a post of Old-Doc [for you 1% here]
[ The French revolution tells us that] when a society becomes divided into an aristocracy and commoners, historically the aristocracy seldom sees trouble coming and never seems to understand that their greed is the driving force. Only when their "head is in the guillotine" do they seem to want to compromise, which is of course much too late. We are currently at a tipping point in this country where the aristocracy [the 1% or 2%] has begun demonizing workers, teachers, civil servants, students and the poor. The unemployment rate for returning veterans [well trained for killing] currently exceeds 12%. I suggest you discourage your peers [and yourself] from comments like "Let them eat cake", --- know what I mean?

Nice quote. Guess I better get ready for dictatorship...wonder who it will be...

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse over loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."

Obama! Obama! Just like his mindless supporters chant!

In 1887 Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinborough, had this to say...

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse over loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."

At least you didn't claim it was written by Alexis de Tocqueville or Benjamin Franklin, to whom that quote (or variation thereof) is usually attributed. However, the correct source of the quote is anj op-ed titled "This is the Hard Core of Freedom" by Elmer T. Peterson in The Daily Oklahoman (9 December 1951).

Of course, quotes by the Founders, their contemporaries, and 19th century Scottish scholars tend to carry more weight than some provincial proto-Rush Limbaugh writing for a newspaper that the Columbia Journalism Review would later call the "Worst Newspaper in America."

He was a professor of history? How could he leave out Rome, Greece, the Ottoman Empire, the Chinese Empire and many Asian Dynasties, the Egyptians, the British, Byzantine Empire, Assyrian Empire, Ethiopian and the Mayan Empires to name a few. You did say greatest civilizations. Yeesh! I'm glad I was never his student.

Unfortunately he is fairly right about how empires/nations/ and civilizations collapse. We are just doing it very quickly. To bad we forgot history or it was completely left out of our education and don't realize great wealth and power does not mean squat when America is still a toddler compared to some of those civilizations. Would you let a 3yr old make every decision for themselves even if they could read,write and do math? They'd still need guidance in many areas, and hopefully their parents would be good leaders. Just as we need right now, so maybe we can make it through if it's not to late. But it will not be pleasant.

Kevin it pains me to share my name with a idiot like you ...... this is not about race this crap wasnt even started by an american group ... just a bunch of sad sad people with nothing else to do ...... they need to freeze any bank accounts connected to ows and then sue them for all the damage they have done to business and the local community

So then the Occupiers movement is for church to run the state? I really want to know, for if it is, I know I am against that.

Racist? mayor Menino is italian, is he now a racist for removing the camp in Boston?

This is the first I have heard that the occupation movement was against racism, I thought it was against the 1%. If it is against racism, then which race? They are against Jews from what I read and have seen in demonstrations, so the Occupiers cannot be completely anti racist.

Are the Occupiers going to join forces with the westboro baptist church?

Oh . So the OWS is now a race? Check.

ron carson, I'm with you. They can come to my place for an old fashioned a$$ whippin'. I'm a little older now, but from what I've seen of these idiots, I would'nt have much trouble with them.

Keven747617 colored folks????? are you still living inthe 1800's when will people start thinking less like al sharpton and jesse jackson.. Martin L. King hopefully taught us all something... but with comments like yours it takes us all back 150 years... stop with your RACIST crap... jesus was a occupier???? LMFAO

Hey Ron, I'm gonna rob your house when you go to the store.

If I recall, Jesus was nailed to a piece of wood. Not sure I would call that prevailing. Course it might be the solution to OWS.

Silly me! How could I forget the Jesus "occupied" a stable in Bethlehem. And for that reason a church is NY in now supposed to be oblgated to let a bunch of imposters who claim to represent the 99% of our country to settled on private property.

This group is blind to the fact they are stealing what belongs to the people, which is the enjoyment of public property set aside for the use of all. They have no qualms about destroying property of others since this disillusioned bunch thinks they are speaking for 99% of America when in reality they are a very meager speck of the humanity they claim to represent. Their message has been heard and dumped, just like the filth they leave behind after their encampments.

Go home, grow up, and have a Merry Christmas.

Yes, we need a revolution in this country. Unfortunately, the type of revolution I believe in is different than the one you are seeking. Our GOVERNMENT is the problem! We need to oust every single politician. Everyone in office should be voted off the island! Their lifelong benefits should be terminated. The only reason our country has the problems it has is because our politicians want it that way. Get special interest out of government. Stop the government give away programs, subsidies, and the outrageous benefits of those "serving" their country (aka politicians).

Kevin, you probably need to shower, shave, and get a hair cut before you can get a real job. I strongly suggest you do those things. If you want to protest something, protest our dam government as they are the one causing the problems we face. Also, POTUS is in bed with the very same Wall Street types you are protesting.

kfilly, you are so right, read this by Charlie Reese, it describes the problem perfectly

545 vs. 300,000,000 People
-By Charlie Reese

Politicians are the only people in the world who create problems and then campaign against them.
Have you ever wondered, if both the Democrats and the Republicans are against deficits, WHY do we have deficits?
Have you ever wondered, if all the politicians are against inflation and high taxes, WHY do we have inflation and high taxes?
You and I don't propose a federal budget. The President does.
You and I don't have the Constitutional authority to vote on appropriations. The House of Representatives does.
You and I don't write the tax code, Congress does.
You and I don't set fiscal policy, Congress does.
You and I don't control monetary policy, the Federal Reserve Bank does.
One hundred senators, 435 congressmen, one President, and nine Supreme Court justices equates to 545 human beings out of the 300 million are directly, legally, morally, and individually responsible for the domestic problems that plague this country.
I excluded the members of the Federal Reserve Board because that problem was created by the Congress. In 1913, Congress delegated its Constitutional duty to provide a sound currency to a federally chartered, but private, central bank.
I excluded all the special interests and lobbyists for a sound reason. They have no legal authority. They have no ability to coerce a senator, a congressman, or a President to do one cotton-picking thing. I don't care if they offer a politician $ 1 million dollars in cash. The politician has the power to accept or reject it. No matter what the lobbyist promises, it is the legislator's responsibility to determine how he votes.
Those 545 human beings spend much of their energy convincing you that what they did is not their fault. They cooperate in this common con regardless of party.
What separates a politician from a normal human being is an excessive amount of gall. No normal human being would have the gall of a Speaker, who stood up and criticized the President for creating deficits. The President can only propose a budget. He cannot force the Congress to accept it.
The Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land, gives sole responsibility to the House of Representatives for originating and approving appropriations and taxes. Who is the speaker of the House now? He is the leader of the majority party. He and fellow House members, not the President, can approve any budget they want. If the President vetoes it, they can pass it over his veto if they agree to.
It seems inconceivable to me that a nation of 300 million cannot replace 545 people who stand convicted — by present facts — of incompetence and irresponsibility. I can't think of a single domestic problem that is not traceable directly to those 545 people. When you fully grasp the plain truth that 545 people exercise the power of the federal government, then it must follow that what exists is what they want to exist.
If the tax code is unfair, it's because they want it unfair.
If the budget is in the red, it's because they want it in the red.
If the Army & Marines are in Iraq and Afghanistan it's because they want them in Iraq and Afghanistan …
If they do not receive social security but are on an elite retirement plan not available to the people, it's because they want it that way.
There are no insoluble government problems.
Do not let these 545 people shift the blame to bureaucrats, whom they hire and whose jobs they can abolish; to lobbyists, whose gifts and advice they can reject; to regulators, to whom they give the power to regulate and from whom they can take this power. Above all, do not let them con you into the belief that there exists disembodied mystical forces like "the economy," "inflation," or "politics" that prevent them from doing what they take an oath to do.
Those 545 people, and they alone, are responsible.
They, and they alone, have the power.
They, and they alone, should be held accountable by the people who are their bosses. Provided the voters have the gumption to manage their own employees…
We should vote all of them out of office and clean up their mess!
What you do with this article now that you have read it… is up to you.

Accounts Receivable Tax
Building Permit Tax
CDL license Tax
Cigarette Tax
Corporate Income Tax
Dog License Tax
Excise Taxes
Federal Income Tax
Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)
Fishing License Tax
Food License Tax
Fuel Permit Tax
Gasoline Tax
Gross Receipts Tax
Hunting License Tax
Inheritance Tax
Inventory Tax
IRS Interest Charges IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)
Liquor Tax
Luxury Taxes
Marriage License Tax
Medicare Tax
Personal Property Tax
Property Tax
Real Estate Tax
Service Charge Tax
Social Security Tax
Road Usage Tax
Recreational Vehicle Tax
Sales Tax
School Tax
State Income Tax
State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
Telephone Federal Excise Tax
Telephone Federal Universal Service Fee Tax
Telephone Federal, State and Local Surcharge Taxes
Telephone Minimum Usage Surcharge Tax
Telephone Recurring and Nonrecurring Charges Tax
Telephone State and Local Tax
Telephone Usage Charge Tax
Utility Taxes
Vehicle License Registration Tax
Vehicle Sales Tax
Watercraft Registration Tax
Well Permit Tax
Workers Compensation Tax
STILL THINK THIS IS FUNNY?
Not one of these taxes existed 100 years ago, & our nation was the most prosperous in the world.
We had absolutely no national debt, had the largest middle class in the world, and Mom, if agreed, stayed home to raise the kids.
What in the heck happened? Can you spell 'politicians?'

When occupiers have to write signs that say " Sorry for the inconvenience to your apathy..." Then very clearly they will not prevail. The 99% are not joining you in the streets Kevin. And they are pissed that your antics are bleeding them.

What is it with all you on the left and the race card? Why is it when someone doesn't agree with you they are racists? I have seen and heard more racist crap out of the mouths of liberals than anyone from the right. Of course there will always be exceptions, but they are usually a minority. And as for democracy, I'll take the republican form of government (No, not the party) any day.

Kevin - the nonsense you post isn't helping you or OWS. in fact it proves how uneducated you are. you should be protesting outside the department of education because you clearly got shafted.

Poor Kevin needs to listen to some good rock and roll - start with the first track of The Eagles album Hell Freezes Over. The name of the song is Get Over It.

He will get an education on why the world doesn't owe hun one damn thing.

The message of OWS ought not to be lost because many of its participants are young, leaderless, filthy or clean. They share one thing in common--they're unemployed or underemployed, as are many Americans. The message is simple: America is politically corrupt. Corporations now dictate public policy. Both Republican and Democratic politicians are now bought and sold to act in the best interests of their contributors, and not in the best interests of the public. Our representative democracy has been reduced to a corporate oligarchy.

Moreover, the Republican Party, acting in lock-step unison, has become the main instrument by which wealthy people compel a transfer of wealth from the middle class to the upper classes through tax policy and other means. That transfer of wealth can be easily seen by anyone who isn't overwhelmed by Teapublican dogma. For example, worker wages, when inflation is taken into account, are about what they were in 1978, a staggering reflection of stagnant wages since Reagan's time. This clearly reflects how, over the last 30 years, businesses have succeeded in defeating labor unions as effective advocates for workers. By comparison, "[t]he top 1% of income earners saw their after-tax income shoot up a whopping 275% between 1979 and 2007, and in the process more than doubled their share of all income, jumping from 8% to 17%, according to a new report from the Congressional Budget Office." http://www.newser.com/story/131888/income-of-top-1-shot-up-275-since-1979-cbo.html. It is now the case that the top 20% of annual income earners in the United States control 85% of all annual income. http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html. The remaining 80% fight over the remaining 15% of the income--the left-over scraps .

As a practical matter, workers' pay has been stagnant ever since Republican hero Reagan started selling Milton Friedman's economic snake oil, which has variously been called "austere capitalism," "laissez faire capitalism" or "neoliberalism." Supposedly in order to take full advantage of the blessings of capitalism, Friedman and his colleagues at the Chicago School of Economics prescribed "trickle down, supply-side economics," deregulation of business, and eliminating government jobs by privatizing governmental functions (think Blackwater providing security for generals in the Green Zone, McDonald's feeding our Iraq soldiers, private enterprises running prisons--a great way for Republicans to reward big campaign contributors, further corrupting democracy). When Reagan said, "Government isn't the solution to people's problems, it is the problem," he was preaching Friedman's gospel. Every Washington economic adviser since 1990 (among whom are Volker, Greenspan, Bernanke, Rubin, Summers, Paulson, Geithner) has been a Friedman acolyte. Friedman's theories make up today's orthodoxy in economic departments of universities, subscribing to them is a requirement for obtaining loans from IMF or the World Bank, and Geithner, one of those who helped install Friedman-inspired policies that led to the great financial collapse of 2007-08, is now the architect trying to undo their calamitous effects. We've been living for 30 years subject to a radical economic tyrant. To those who would dismiss this as "nonsense," bear in mind that implementation of Friedman's ideas has led to the enrichment of the wealthy and the impoverishment of the middle class in Pinochet's Chile, post-Glasnost Russia, and Lech Walesa's Poland.

While Teapublicans dwell on tax reductions, bloated government, welfare queens, 2nd Amendment rights, Obama as socialist, Obamacare as socialistic, bringing prayer into our schools, and maintaining bigotry against homosexuals, all because they have a tendency to believe in sheer fictions and and to be frightened easily by fairy tales articulated by angry, hubristic and often dull-witted rhetoricians (Rick Perry, Michelle Bachman, Rick Santorum, Herman Cain, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity, and Glenn Beck), OWS has triggered a slumbering giant--those who have been screwed by a rigged political system that operates for the benefit of the wealthy at the expense of ordinary working people. They know that the "job creators" who enjoyed the fruits of higher worker productivity during the 90s and 2000s and got a massive tax cuts under Bush, have gladly accepted their tax cuts, bailouts and trillions in profits earned during Obama's Presidency and are either sitting on those trillions of dollars or are shipping jobs to newly established factories, call-service centers (don't they all seem to have an Indian accent?), and businesses in other countries with starving workers who aren't represented by unions and will accept way-below minimum wages, thereby generating even greater profits for their corporate masters.

All Teapublicans who denounced Kevin for his naivete or alleged lack of education are nothing less than indoctrinated, ill-educated lemmings who prefer to believe corporate drivel. They like being corporate serfs, at least until the full impact of the ongoing income transfer is complete--when America will be a Third World country. After government has been dismantled (yes, Uncle Miltie, you won!) and federal income taxes are lowered (even though they are as low as they've been in 50 years), when they won't have high taxes and bloated government to whine about, they won't like rolling blackouts more than once per day, or the fact that there aren't enough cops to catch criminals, not enough district attorneys to prosecute offenders, that interstate calamities/catastrophes won't be addressed yet alone fixed (Katrina's destruction of New Orleans will be the model of efficiency), potholes will never be fixed, that pollution will go completely unabated, public parks will close (already happening in California), potable water will be much more expensive, etc. The only benefit to Teapublicans will be that illegal immigration will stop--for undocumented aliens, the only reason to come is for the jobs, which will no longer exist).

In other words, OWS stopped believing in right-wing propaganda and are demanding economic equity and an end to political corruption. Their message will survive their end because it's the main fight over the future of the United States.

And, stop the madening, there's no such word as "madening"in the English language. Perhaps you were trying to recall, however inaccurately, a book written by Thomas Hardy called "Far from the Madding Crowd." Madding crowd means "a quiet or rural place." Hardy took his book title from Thomas Gray's poem - Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard, 1751: 'Far from the madding crowd's ignoble strife." Someone who is well-educated would not use an invented word as part of his/her blogger name. Were I you, stop the madening, I'd refrain from calling anyone else "uneducated." And Richard, just because you believe in the Gospel of the Tea Party doesn't mean your opinion is correct or that your beliefs are tantamount to an education that you maintain that Kevin lacks, you intellectual fraud.

Fantastic summery of the “reasons” of these World-wide OWS demonstrations Michael L Marcowitz ! I copied it to my computer and hope you will let me use part of it in other posts. (With credits given of course)

Sure hope these OWS protesters don't post their protest pictures on social media pages. Employers like team players, not loose cannons.