Reading is fundamental. Try it sometime.

Yes it is. Maybe you should try it sometimes. You can start with reading my very short post above...Exactly where does a supposed "miracle" come into play? It's insulting that the hard work done by the physicians, surgeons and staff there to save this kids life is being disregarded because of some magical thinking.

It was a flesh-eating bacteria, doc. Chances of survival is pretty damn slim. The doctors did all they could, and even they didn't know how the kid suddenly turned for the better when he was pretty much not going to make it. Believe in what you want to believe in, but this is pretty @!$%#ing amazing.

@MarineDoc, I believe @Rwaith is referring to the segment of the article which states:

As for the nonbelievers, Elsa is quick to explain that attributing Jake’s miracle survival to a future saint is in no way a discredit to the doctors who treated him.

“We know Jake would not be here if those doctors were not so fabulous,” she says.
But she also notes that the doctors themselves told the Vatican interviewers they don’t know how to account for the boy’s turn of fortune.

“They stated they did everything humanly possible and that the death rate for this disease is very high. They had also made comments as to they don’t know why he survived. They, too, have stated that, yeah, it is a miracle that he has survived.”

Ahhh FAITH...some have it some just never will get it! I do pray that MarineDoc knows that feeling before his time here is over.

MarineDoc... Are you a doctor? I find it hard to imagine you don't have a clue that miracles happen everyday being a Doctor. Some things just are not explained by medicine even for A FISH doctor.

My mother she went into a coma and then septic shock, the doctors told us to go and say goodbye it was only a matter of a day at most. I prayed, and I prayed, still nothing, facing the "unplugging" of the machine I couldn't do it, I just couldn't. They showed me "proof" where my mother was brain dead, see here where the spine is pushing into her brain, look here there are no waves from the machine... on and on they showed me.

The second day I was suppose to call the other family members to come and watch her pass, and I am sitting with my mother and she started to bat her eyes, I ran to get someone and they ASSURED me that was just what the body was doing my mother was NOT there. An hour later my mom was there, staring at me and when I asked her to blink if she understood me she did!!! The Drs all came in SHOCKED to see her lucid, even took her into do more test the MRI showed the same thing, but now she had brain waves.

The family arrived to say goodbye and was shocked too to see my mom say their names when they walked in, amen Lord she was going to be ok. No, she wasn't the miracle here was that we all got to say goodbye and tell her we love her one more time. Late that night she kept staring at the corner wall, telling me she was going home. I told her she just needed to get stronger and YES I WAS GOING TO TAKE HER HOME. She told me no that she was going home with Jesus, He was in the room waiting for her. She went back into the coma and died the next day. It took me years to forgive GOD for taking my mother so soon, she was only 58. Looking back I see the miracle that was there. The doctors at Arizona medical will tell you that it was a TRUE miracle too, they had NO explination on how a brain dead women was awake and talking.

I am just surprised that a doctor does not see the miracles in life.

Doc---the good medicine did help.

----------and maybe Tim Tebow was involved.

@Ghost Wolf its more precisely called necrotizing fasciitis, and I'm very familiar with the poor prognosis especially when not treated immediately. Prayer and magical thinking does not kill methicillin resistant staphylococcus aureus, nor is it a treatment for multi-organ failure syndrome, sepsis or anything else related. A physician stating that he is unsure about why this child's illness turned around on that particular day doesn't mean he's agreeing with some religious sect about the intercession of some long dead woman who may or may not have been coerced into converting. When you spell it out, doesn't it really sound dumb? It does to me.

@skate-08 it doesn't matter to what Rwaith referring, as reading comprehension is more important than merely recognizing combinations of letters.

A miracle is, "A surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is considered to be divine."

In this case there is a very reasonable explanation, it's called agressive medical, surgical, and critical care. I've heard family members describe me to other family members as being "shocked" by good outcomes, when I was nothing of the sort. There are no such thing as miracles. There are good outcomes that happen to be rare.

Yes, faith ... some are infected with it and some of us aren't.

Your faith makes you immune to facts.

Testable, demonstrable facts make me immune to your faith.

@yourabully,

Fish Doctor...cute. Was that supposed to upset me?

No, there will be no deathbed conversion for me. I don't fear death, unlike so many so-called religious people who seem to be horribly afraid of the end of life. I find this strange since they believe something wonderful is on the other side of the veil. Curious.

I'm sure the prayers for your mother helped you and may have brought her some comfort hearing your voice. But, I'm not sure what you are referencing when you are talking about a miracle.

There are no miracles, everything has an explanation. Sometimes it just takes awhile to understand what happened.

MarineDoc, please understand that the family, doctors, and investigators thoroughly checked into the story. The relic was not introduced until the family was told that nothing more could be done and that the family should "pray for a miracle". The doctors have stated that the boy should be and would have been dead. Nothing they did succeeded in curing the boy. Yes, they maintained his life for the weeks he was in the hospital but he was dying. MarineDoc, miracles happen every day because of the intercession of someone or something. Would it not be prudent to allow for such in this case?

Judi,

Look, this entire article is ridiculous. If you want to believe in these fantasies, please go ahead. But don't be surprised when someone states that it's a bunch of BS. Like I'm doing right now.

People who don't know any better believe in miracles.

MarineDoc.... No not at all on the "fish doc" part, I was trying to be cute.

I do not fear death, not for one moment am I worried. I know there is a reward for me at the end of it all. I would like to have you converted before you die just so you aren't lonely when its your time to go.

I know, its that crap she thinks we are going to heaven or hell thing. It is my belief, I respect yours, you need to at least respect those of us that worship a higher power. IMO religion is just that.....one word. FAITH.

Oh and PS my mother was a deaf mute, so hearing my voice did not give her comfort. Seeing Jesus did!

I will pray that you get some FAITH knocked into you, gently of course, nothing that will put you into shock but just enough for you to say.... "I believe!" ((and I don't men in Santa! hehe))

You failed. Sorry.

And how does one get "faith knocked" into them, would that be like being forced to have faith? Feel free to believe in whatever flavor of god you choose. That's up to you.

I'm not interested in your gods. It's this mentality of converting people that is at the root of many of the worlds problems, so you'll excuse me if I'm less than enthusiastic.

Not to be overly flippant, since your mother was deaf and mute, how do you know she was "seeing Jesus".

Funny you mention Santa. http://lolgod.blogspot.com/2011/01/jesus-santa-claus-for-grown-ups.html

Excuse me MarineDoc is it?You really don't know how to read do you, and you label yourself a doctor? Of what exactly BULL CRAP?Please spare us the pedigree.The mother and father gave the doctors a HELL OF A LOT OF CREDIT.Even they didn't know why the kid got better.What article did you read?

Perhaps you and the rest of the Unintelligent doubters on here are afraid to believe in a HIGHER POWER.Hence the fear and the unintelligent criticism.

GIVE IT A FRIGGEN REST.Miracles happen whether you or the rest of these people on here believe it or not.

“They stated they did everything humanly possible and that the death rate for this disease is very high. They had also made comments as to they don’t know why he survived. They, too, have stated that, yeah, it is a miracle that he has survived.”

By using the words..."very high", this supposes there have been others who survived. Was their remarkable recovery attributed to some dead person's intervention as well?

Oh please Gloria, you give it a rest. Because you believe in miracles, Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny means the rest of us are stupid? Perhaps it's BECAUSE some are a bit more intelligent that we don't believe?

I guess the doctors and advancements in medical science had nothing to do with it. Hey, need a cure, just channel some past person. Lets just shut down all the medical schools and get Shirley McClain to channel people. I am glad the child is ok though.

Gloria: was that supposed to make sense? Those who believe in reason and facts and science and proof are just AFRAID of what they're trying to make sense of? I'd say you have that exactly backwards...your reaction and bit of hysterics at the thought of someone not agreeing with you says a lot about your reasoning ability. Those who jump to conclusions simply because they don't know the answer--will cling to ANY answer that comforts them. They are the ones who are really afraid. Many of us don't fear the unknown and welcome the quest for real answers.

Gloria,

So how do you know it wasn't the Hindu nurse who prayed to Mariamman or Sh!tala Devi to help the poor child? Perhaps there was a Haitian housekeeper who, feeling sorry for the child went home and performed an extra, extra special ritual to summon the unsummonable Bondye?

So...tell me who you are coming to when your daughter starts vomiting blood in the middle of the night? Me...or the your local Priest? If you see the Haitian housekeeper, be sure to offer him a chicken.

People who believe in magic in this day and age deserve every bit of derision that comes to them. There's no excuse in this country to believe in bronze age gods.

Now i believe in miracles, how else would we have won six consecutive games this season?! And don't get me wrong that is great for the kid, but the fact is that it is not a miracle he survived. It has happened before and it will happen again. Just like Denver winning the Superbowl... GO BRONCOS!!!

Marine doc just keep hiding your head in the sand and trying to believe in the power of man. God does perform miracles! Read your bible heathen. I pray you see the light and ask for the forgiveness of Jesus Christ before your time on this earth is over!

For those that doubt in saints. I would counter that there are several such accounts in the bible of saints performing miracles. Yes glory be to God and Jesus Christ. But I fail to see the harm in recognizing the tools (Saints) they use to perform the good works.

Now all that said yes the doctors did a a excellent job and more than likely the boy would not have survived with out all their hard work. So here is a atta boy for each and every care giver who gave the child a chance at a miracle!

I hope I never encounter Marine Doc no matter how sick i am

MarineDoc, I find it interesting that you, as a supposed doctor (you have not answered what type of medicine you practice, if you do, or if you are in research; people have asked you in the past also, but you never answer them) have to put down everyone that believes. I know you are supposed to be a person of science, however, I have known many doctors that do believe in a higher being. Most of them I know as clients of my employer (an accountant), so I see where their donations go. Many of them feel that they were given a gift to help heal people. Some have been doctors that tended to my now deceased parents. I have also read articles where doctors tell families that there is no more they can do for a patient, so please pray. Sometimes it works out for the families, sometimes it does not. Sometimes they pray that the ill family member is taken without much more suffering. If believing in miracles helps people feel better, then you should not be putting them down.

Gloria: It's a miracle you have surived this long.

As for everyone else, what makes you think there is a god? Prove theres a god, then MABEY I'll believe in these so-called miracles.

Sickof,

I'm pretty sure you've got that backward. I challenge you to prove that your particular flavor of deity is real, while simultaneously proving all the other gods of the world are not.

That should keep you busy for awhile.

If they truly believed in miracles, then why bother taking him to the hospital where doctors and modern medicines healed him. Give the thanks to those that saved him. The doctors and scientists that saved him.

If they actually thought that god would save him, then just take him to a church and see if it would, but we all already know the outcome of that if they did. Just as the other religious woman that refused to take her little girl to the doctor due to her religious beliefs, all the praying in the world didn't save her, but if they had actually taken her to the hospital, they could have saved her from the pneumonia that she had and was curable.

Doctors and meds saved me after i was severely burned, but the church we attended before the house fire gave credit to their god and made profits off of me and my family members tragedy. Yes my mom and younger brother died, but they said god needed them. Actually, they were burned from head to tow with 3rd and 4th degree burns. That's what killed them, and the hospital and doctors is what saved me.

I give my thanks to them, not the intangible man in the sky.

Thanks to all of the doctors, nurses, volunteers, and people that spent all the countless hours in saving me and helping me survive. Without you, I never would have made it.

Happy Holidays to all of you. You are all my heroes.

:)

Skin eating infections are horrible. I had sporotrichosis (a fungal infection) on my arm as a 13 year old. It spread down my arm in horrible ulcers that contained puss and blood. My entire right arm was bandaged 24 hours a day to try and prevent any other infections from setting into the gaping wounds on my arm. There's nothing like trying doctor after doctor only to get a "We'll take a biopsy and send it off, but I'm not entirely sure what this is." My mom even talked with doctors from the CDC. It turns out my local dermatologist finally figured it out by googling random infections and comparing pictures. After being on medicine for over a year I only have the scars and pictures as proof and a doctor I am forever thankful to have met! I do believe in miracles though :) but I also give credit to the health professionals who are there for us in time of need.

Mercury,

Why would I tell anyone on the Vine my specialty and where I practice? Have you met these people? Would you want them coming to your office door?

Why do you find it surprising? We tell people to pray (to whatever gods or goddesses they believe in) so it will help them come to some acceptance...not for any divine intervention. That would be absurd. A colleague of mine told me a story about a request for a "Witch Doctor" to perform his ritual. And low and behold the kid got better. But that's the fallacy of believing correlation = causation.

What I do here on the Vine is not what I'm going to tell a grieving family member who is overcome by emotion. But this doesn't mean I as an individual cannot comment as I please.

MarineDoc, I did not ask where you practiced, only what you practiced, whether in an office or in research. However, your last sentence is very telling.

Gloria,

If you didn't exist I would have to invent you...you truly are an unbelievable character.

I guess you don't really know your Bible then do you. The Bronze Age was 3300-1200BC. Abraham is thought to have lived between 1812-1637 BC or 1976-1801 BC (...or about 1900 years after Genesis) both dates CLEARLY coincide with the Near East Bronze Age...don't you have Google?? It's not hard to find. I mean you DO know what the Bronze Age was, right?

By the way, derision is hardly a $50 word. Die Gedanken sind frei, und in diesen Tagen auch Wörter. The great thing about the internet is that I can write in any language I want, and a reasonably intelligent person should be able to have a rough translation in a matter of seconds. Let's see how long it takes you.

About all of that intelligence stuff...sometimes the best come back is to just allow your opponents words to sit there and stink up the room like a nasty fart.

Don't light a match Gloria...

I just wrote a post that was kind and gentle and wanted to encourage everyone to get along, but then this stupid thing just swallowed it up and got rid of it so here is the plain verson.

The boy recovered on his own, everyone and everything else that was put to his aid to do this indeed helped. End of story.

This is 100% an agenda piece, the Vantican does this to promote the Church, the family agreed to this so it is.

What part of their faith played a role in his recovery can never substitute the medical treatment he recieved and the Church is not endorsing that any less should have been done.

For the doctors you should know better than to pick on people who don't understand how the mind works and what role a belief structure plays in commanding the mind to act in the favor of a patient. The patient still needs to respond to treatment and choose to live in this case, whatever means that will must be derived so be it. It is not for doctors to question faith but treat disease with whatever means and skill available. Stressing a patient out by not going along with whatever it is they believe could in this case have been fatal if the patient believed that there was no hope. The body can do wonders under the right influense let them have the influence they need to promote their healing. If you don't know how their will and mind works to survive it is best to just let it be and focus on what you know.

For the "believers" you should never, ever put down someone who does a great service to the world, the point is to accept, acknowledge and advance one another, not put them down and drive them away from the gifts they give the world. You have more to worry about from God than they do, if you focus on trying to intimidate someone into a belief you should focus on yourself first otherwise don't expect a whole lot of help or happiness to come your way, you have to give good and then you will be good, there is no other way.

Kronah,

Thanks for the Rodney King speech, it was very nice of you and well said...now, step aside people are cyberbrawling.

Lol, very well then. Have a good night Dr.

Getting a little testy there are we Gloria? Calling names is a page taken right out of the GOP playbook. Perhaps a political forum would suit you better? I can give you incontrovertable proof that medical science is real. Can you prove to me without a shadow of doubt that your "God" and "miracles" really do exist?

Gloria,

So I suppose you got the message I was sending you (or did you need to ask your grandson for help?). Oh, come now Gloria, such a nice "christian" woman couldn't possibly have anything nasty to say. (hint, hint..notice the small c in christian...).

By the way, I said you were a character, not that you had character. I suggest complete, coherent sentences the next time you'd like to spar.

So...we can agree that you are incorrect about Bronze Age gods.

I don't have a grandson,grandpa!Notice the small g in grandpa!I didn't say you had any character either.So I guess it makes it an even playing field.More like the word Bigot comes to mind.

Nor were you coherent about this subject,and I'd say nasty is in your territory also Genius .About the bronze age gods, there's more to the story on that one,more than your teeny tiny closed mind will ever know.Guess you don't know everything, now do you?So you'll have to stew for awhile.

Well good night, sleep tight!

Gloria are you drunk?

Anana...I wondered the same thing.

@Gloria, not sure why you believe we are on an even playing field. It seems like you are just grabbing at words. It's actually rather difficult to follow your train of thought.

As far as Bronze Age gods, I'm fairly confident that I'm correct and that you don't have anything to add. It just seems as though people like yourself have a difficult time disengaging from a conversation when they've been beaten. I'll give you an out if you like...up to you.

It is silly and very irresponsible that grown people still believe in miracles in 2011. Obviously it was the antibiotics and the critical care treatment plus the boy's own immune system (not divine) that overcame the infection.

If this was a miracle then why was this kid so cursed with a horrendous flesh-eating bacteria in the first place? Did god curse him so he could play some twisted game when he then provided a miracle (with disfigured face just for good measure) and cured him? This is ridiculous when you really think about it.

Of course miracles don't happen, except in the mythology of religion.

All things supernatural exist only in the minds of human beings, including god or gods. Nothing supernatural has ever affected the outcome of anything in the natural world.

Gloria, why won't God heal amputees? http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

God is in the person who believes. But as human beings the mind can never except what it can touch,see,of feel. SAD DON'T YOU THINK???

I find it very sad that a doctor admits to being a hypocrite. He pretends he's interested in his patients...but really the $ amount is all he's interested in....so he goes along with any kind of what he considers fairy- tales. Faith is not something we can see or touch. Faith is what makes miracles....not all receive miracles. The reasons are unknown to us but will be revealed when we have the intelligence to understand them. God gave us wisdom ....at least some of us....to be doctors and nurses and heal the sick by our expertise as well as his help. For all of you who do not believe in a higher-being other then your poor pitiful selves.....who cannot survive without air, food or water....take any of these basics away and even our high and mighty doctor ceases to exist. So doc....with a little d...put yourself on that high and mighty...rich pedestal you reside on.....but think about who put you there. You got there on the backs of the little people....who pay you big bucks to help them recover....not save their lives. Only God does that....but when the Dark Ones come for you.....I wouldn't want to be in your socks. So believe as you choose....as I have experienced many miracles....too many to list. It would do me no good anyway as you do not believe in anything but your self-centerness and your almighty dollar. I pray I never have the privilege of meeting you...much less having you as my physician. I will pray that you in fact have an encounter that will blow your mind before they come for you....there is a time appointed to live and all must die. Figure that one out doc. Why do we all die...great and small? Keep in mind we take nothing from this world with us...except our faith. No one can take that gift from you...It is your choice who waits for you on the other side. It is too late once the last breath is taken....He will not always tarry with you....and as the world is hardened more against God so does your poor heart. Read the Bible as you would any other book....the old testament is a history of our world...the new is a modern day story of hope, life and love. Try to love someone doc.....as I don't believe you even love yourself...much less have love or compassion for others. Yes, the doctors played a huge part in saving the boy's life.....bottom line....end results is always in God's hands. All things work together for those who love God.

MarineDoc,

I am not religious and believe that organized religion was developed by corrupt men to take control over the chaos of those with no power to better their situation during the early days of civilization. That being said I also understand the psychological power of religious belief. Those that believe in a higher power and belong to religious communities are more resilliant and tend to heal at a greater rate than those that do not. To my way of thinking even though the biological response of a positive attitude can be scientifically proven it can also be called a miracle if that helps people to get through their lives.

I understand that as a doctor you are a man (or woman) of science. As a psychologist I too believe in science and facts, and the science states that belief in a higher power has a true impact on the minds ability to accept the physical and survive what for a non-believer would be devastating. My advice is to work on your bedside manner. If you go around telling your patients that their religious beliefs are hogwash and that you are the cause of their supposed miracle you are sure to run out of patients. Being understanding and supportive of the religious beliefs of others, so long as they cause you no harm, will not hurt you and can benefit those that look to you for the scientific help that their religion cannot provide. Open minds and open hearts will make our world a better place faster than the current mentality of "it is all about me".

Gloria - you are a hypocrite. Not only that, but your logic, grammar and spelling are that of a third grader, and no one of intelligence could possibly take you seriously. Quite frankly, you telling other people that they are unintelligent is rich in irony. Very rich.

Those that believe in a higher power and belong to religious communities are more resilliant and tend to heal at a greater rate than those that do not.

Unless you have concrete evidence of this, it's just bullsheet. As such, no one should take you seriously.

Here's a thought. This little boy is ALIVE, for whatever reason, he is alive. Many people are ALIVE because of reasons nobody can explain. Miracle or not, why can't some of you let people believe in them? Maybe you don't, and God help you if you are ever in the position where you yourself have to pray for one. I think we should let everyone believe in them if it makes them feel good. The power of your mind is an AWESOME thing. The mind can do things you don't even understand, so if believeing in a miracle is what helps someone, what harm is it doing???

My dad was dead. We were told that there was absolutely nothing that could be done. Infection in the blood stream, flight for life, life support...ALIVE today. Yeah, the doctors had LOTS to do with that. But, I also believe that our power to believe did lots too.

Let this young boy BELIEVE in miracles!!

Good Morning kiddies!

First of all somewholiveshere,your post says it all!Well stated and Thank You for pointing everything out the way you did.It is well appreciated not only by me but by others who are members of a religious community.

Now I'm turning my attention towards Darth Vader is it,oh no wait wait Garth Vader,oops.I'm a hypocrit?Well thank you for that compliment.Yes Garth they are unintelligent just the way you are un intelligent, when you spew your ignorance and venom towards people who believe in a higher power.You're blind as a bat.You can't see people's individuality,as far as their beliefs are concerned.You want to put a one size fits all on everyone when you're in the process of pushing your ignorant agenda!

You come on here pushing your agenda, and telling people it's all bull Sh it!Talk about spelling of a third grader you can't even spell Bull sh it right!

You need concrete evidence? They see and feel things you can't possibly feel because you're trapped as a human being, having blinders on, and living in the same pit falls of life day in and day out! They believe in a God and they believe in miracles,because they have something you don't, TRUST!Hell genius it works for them.

Oh and your rant about the spelling,logic and grammer?It's old hat sunshine. People like you have to rely on the logic, english, and grammer routine,because you're so full of hate and fear of the unknown,that you have nothing better to fall back on,you and the rest of your pathetic crowd

Do yourself and everybody on here a large favor,CAN IT, AND GIVE IT A REST.

Misery loves company! You and the likes of you are a bunch of miserable, pathetic human beings!

someonewholiveshere,

Those that believe in a higher power and belong to religious communities are more resilliant and tend to heal at a greater rate than those that do not

I'm sorry, but in WHAT journal did you read that religious people are more resilient and heal at a greater rate? What would the be mechanism of action that halts the MRSA, multi-organ dysfunction syndrome, sepsis, etc.?

Thank you for your unsolicited advice. Mine to you would be not to offer any until you've witnessed my "bedside manner", thanks. I tell people they can pray if they like. When asked if I think it will do any good, I tell them the honest truth, but also say if it helps them cope to continue doing it.

Sounds like you advocate lying to patients. I suggest you stay away from surgical and ICU patients especially, and stop making assumptions.

There are no miracles. There is no magic. Please follow the rest of us into the 21st Century.

Gloria -- the more you rant, the less seriously I take your posts. To the point of simply scrolling past them without bothering to read them.

Calm down, quit the 'screaming' and name-calling. Try posting more rationally.

Let's see, the family took the child to the hospital. Doctors did everything they possibly could and told the family that the prognosis was grim and if they were praying people to start praying.

Now everyone is drawing a line in the sand...it's a miracle, it isn't a miracle. Believe, Don't Believe.

Meanwhile a little boy has a chance to grow up. Happy ending for whomever may be responsible.

Please...continue your cyberbattle. It's totally entertaining!

Marine Doc follow you and the rest of you into the 21st century?We're already here, that's more than I can say for you!

Yeah we are an even playing field.Learn how to read, because you lack a lot of understanding and comprehension.

Let me explain it to you. It's very simple, you told me in one of your posts above, that I was a Character,however, that I lacked Character. I in turn said you didn't have any character either.So that genius, puts us on an even playing field. Comprende,or should I explain it again?

Your bronze age gig about god,it's FLAWED as hell.Maybe someday when you grow up I can it explain to you!Emotionally you really need to Grow Up, because that's flawed also.

Oh and your beside manner,it does stink.You also need to take a course in Tolerance of other people.You don't have any!

Gloria,

Again, I'm going to let your words just sit there and stink up the room....

Explain how I'm incorrect about the Bronze Age. Come on, I know you can do it. And no, I am not obligated in ANY way to tolerate your ignorance.

(by the way, that button that's wider than the rest without any letters or symbols on it is called a SPACE bar, you should familiarize yourself with it).

The only justification I can see for this is a backroom meeting. "Let's see," says the pope. How can we deflect the fact that the United States has so many altar boy loving priest." Cardinal Pedo responds, "Let make a saint and celebrate it in the United States. That will give the press something else to talk about." I hate to tell you this your Holiness but we have no one ready in the US to canonize," Said cardinal Mo Lester. "Well we will just bend the rules," replies," his Naziness. I think this stinks of Public relations more than of the almighty.

Nor am obligated to tolerate yours.My words stink up a room?No No genius that space is reserved for you!I'm not explaining it to you till you grow up and get a little more tolerance and maturity,when it comes to other people's beliefs!!Oh and yes there is something to explain,but I'll just let you sit on it for awhile.

Mean time go give somebody a shot or a shot of something,I gotta go!

Well, you sure told me :)

Hey Marinedoc what's up?

Interesting.

Fish Doc......... good morning, sorry I didn't join the group last night looks like there was a lot of things said. Whew... ok so the only thing I have to say to you this morning is:

For a smart man one that can type in multi languages, you forgot one... you asked me how my mom told me she was going home to Jesus.... SIGN LANGUAGE. It is very popular language, even taught in fancy colleges. Yes I did call you smart, and I meant that, someone that has your degrees (very impressive) and your quick wit does deserve the compliment of being smart. I get the science in you, you need tangible proof. That is what believing is, going back to FAITH. I have the faith in my heart to know it is real. To know what I see all over is real. I in no way believe that we were made from the Darwin Effect. Humans did not come from a stagnet watering hole. I believe in evolution to a degree, but not one that we came from chimps.

The human body is an amazing living being, EVERYTHING to make a human body live GOD created to sustain us. Back in the "golden" no you called it "bronze" days there was medicine, but it grew from the ground not from a store. Most drugs today kill one thing to cure another, modern medicine is just that, new to the market. I agree with you when saying the docs did the work, but.....the glory goes to GOD on this. So why are your panties in a bunch when even the docs knew it was as you put it MAGIC. And for the record, MAGIC is evil, MIRACLES are GODLY. I serve only ONE GOD. I believe all over the world that same GOD is worship'd but is called different names. I know you think we are all crazy, but I assure you I have never been more clear headed in my life.

Also, the forcing of knowing GOD can only be done by you, I can give you all my knowledge and explain how I feel, but it is not for me to MAKE you a believer, one day you might see or feel something in your heart that will make you think about it. I love that you are open enough to be curious about it, that is really half the battle. Believe or not, every person here on earth deserves to try and be shown in a powerful love. I do hope someday someone shows you that power.



Sooo...you are going to continue with the lame "fish" doc thing? Is it that important to you? Kind of weak, but if it makes you happy.

So, what you are trying to tell me is that your mom gingerly awoke from a coma and was able to coherently sign to you. Most of the patients who have been coma, medically induced or not tend to have quite a bit of confusion and weakness. But, you know, I'll let you have that one, but I have my doubts...

Here's an interesting definition for you. Take it for what you will, I'm not making any statements by it.

"...a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary". Would you like to take a guess as to the word?

Faith has no place in science. And please don't confuse faith with trust, as the latter is earned over time.

I'm going to help you out here.

The human body is an amazing living being, EVERYTHING to make a human body live GOD created to sustain us.

You are at a distinct disadvantage in this area. Perhaps pride got the best of you, and you wrote that without thinking. I'm going to give you a chance to track that back. I won't touch for now...

Sooo...about this Bronze Age thing. Did you actually read the original quote? Don't be like Ms. Fabiaschi and misquote me or embellish. All you need to do is simply scroll up. Nobody mentioned ANYTHING about Bronze Age and medicine. That's just lazy.

There was no magic, no faith healing, no intercession by long dead women who were likely coerced to convert. It was IV antibiotics, surgical debridement, maintenance of blood pressure, and gas exchange....you know: medicine. If you'd like to "praise" whatever god you happen to believe it, knock yourself out. I can't stop anyone from making a fool of themselves. And there's no difference in magic or miracles...it's all delusion and magical thinking.

Now, if you are done sermonizing...maybe you can get to work praying about the 5 million or so children sold into slavery and trafficked around the world every year. Maybe ask for some intercession for the kids I mentioned in Haiti under the age of 5 fending for themselves eating dirt cakes and sewer water. Or if you'd like something a bit closer to home maybe pray for all those kids molested by the same church who are proclaiming this a "miracle", and while you are at it maybe put in something about Bishop Eddie Long and pals http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scandals_involving_evangelical_Christians. Go on now...seems like you've got quite a bit of work to do.

Well said youareabully. Interesting name BTW.

While it is understandable that you would want to share that powerful love, many feel that it doesn't exist. They dispute what they cannot see. They also resent anyone who may believe in a higher power. Miracles do not fit in their tidy explainable world. It becomes a battle of words, and 'prove it' abounds.

It was good to see that the family said that the child would not be alive if it wasn't for the fabulous Doctors. It shows that even some with faith also believe in Doctors, Hospitals and medicine.

This will be deemed a miracle by the Pope, regardless of the 'show me' and 'everything can be explained' posters.

CMS.. agreed some people will never know what we know. Thanks!

Oh Fishie....as amuzing as this has been, it has come time to stop this banter regarding does faith even excist. I will conceed on one point and that is all I can offer...people are living longer lives today with modern medicine. I am going to assume you are saving the fishes as I type, so thank you for that.

My mother when she woke was not ready to put on dancing shoes and the hoses hooked up to her mouth, arms, body were not pretty but she did manage to sign the I LOVE YOU sign, she was able to sign our sign names, she was able to place her fingers to her cheek and say home, she was able to make the sign for Jesus, which just so you get a visual is taking your MIDDLE FINGERS point them at you, no, no, sorry.. that another one.. but you do use your middle fingers and take each one to the opposite hand you know where us fakers believe He got the nails in Him, thats the sign for our Fathers Son, our SAVIOUR. You are an ignorant man that really needs to be sat down and explained to the facts of humans. You might be a doctor but you have no compassion for people, and that MarineDoc will be where you miss out on so many opportunities.

I have nothing to back track on, I don't even want to second guess what you are going to school me on. Know that I really don't think you have anything to teach me, but I have been known to be wrong so go ahead, tell me what your message below is... all mystery "I wont touch for now" ohhhh.... I am scared. BRING IT ON FISH MAN! lol

The human body is an amazing living being, EVERYTHING to make a human body live GOD created to sustain us.

You are at a distinct disadvantage in this area. Perhaps pride got the best of you, and you wrote that without thinking. I'm going to give you a chance to track that back. I won't touch for now...

Regarding all the starving kids and molested kids done by a church that hides behind a religion they will be meeting their maker one day and will have to atone for their sins. The Christian I am, I do not condone, accept or approve of anyone starving, hurt or bullied. I am gonna keep living my life the same way MarineDoc, one day at a time, and with my head up and ears and heart open.

I pray you do the same. A really well liked doctor has a mixture of all of that, compassion, heart, science, faith and decent human emotions. I do understand now why you only work with marine life.

You know what I find offensive? That you believe that it is your place and right "sit anyone down and explain" your superstition. I'm not interested in your gods. I've said as much. If you want to believe in fairytales that's your business. If you want to falsely take credit for this good outcome by all means. But wouldn't a true test of "faith" be to eschew all modern medicine. What? Your faith isn't "that" strong?

I also find it offensive that because I have argued against your superstition, and pointed out the fallacy of your argument that you get to say that I'm not compassionate. But that, you'll hopefully never know. I sometimes see patients I've cared for or the loved ones of the people who didn't make it. I can say that there's never been an instance where I haven't been greeted with open arms. But that's between me and them, you don't get to share in it.

I've come across your type. Preachy. Projecting your insecurities and fear of invisible gods onto others. I do believe it was your Jesus of Nazareth who had a problem with hypocritical displays of virtue.

I have no interest in speaking to you. You haven't offered anything to this conversation, and my even paying the slightest bit of attention to you, lends undeserved legitimacy to your arguments.

You don't want to be enlightened, please continue believing in intelligent design, 6,000 year old earth, and that woman was created from Adam's rib.

I'll bet it's scary for all of you types who believe in invisible mysterious gods of all flavors. I know there is this tiny, minuscule seed of doubt in the back of your mind that whispers when you are drifting off to sleep, "...what if the Muslims (or Jews, or Mormons, or Hindu's or Buddists) are right?"

:)

@MarineDoc I wish I could hand you a water or a beer after going through that gauntlet of ignorance.

Me too!

Thanks guys. You should see me bite my tongue when this stuff pops up in the hospital....

Faith.

1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. often Faith Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/faith

Everyone has faith...even if you don't believe in a higher power.

@MarineDoc

Thanks guys. You should see me bite my tongue when this stuff pops up in the hospital....

Me too. I also work in a hospital and can tell you that I understand you completely. In fact, I was telling a nurse co-worker that I just picked up a hard cover of origin of man and she responded: "You bought a bible?"

After I chuckled I did ask her if believed in biblical creation and turned away from the discussion once she told me that woman was created from a mans rib that's why he has one less.

I asked her to count the ribs on a male and female skeleton and left the room... she's a teaching nurse and shooting for a DON position... I mean, that's freakin scary.

Wow. MarineDoc finally quit commenting on this. I wish you would have let it go at the start like how you apparently let it go at the hospital. Which I highly doubt. Last time I checked this is the USA. I believe everyone is entitled to their opinion. Now on that note quit fighting on here and do something better with your time. Like save a life maybe or get off your lazy ass and go for a walk. By the way my comment here has nothing to do with Religion or Politics. I know one of you idiots will make it that way though. Thank you and Have a nice day.

Agreed. Good job MarineDoc. A virtual high five to you my reasonable friend.

Heavensjoker89,

Who says I quit? If you notice the first part of my screen name, that should tell you a bit about my tenacity at stamping out ignorance. Everyone IS entitled to their own opinion, however everyone is NOT entitled to their own facts. Maybe you should mind your own business about what I do between saving lives....it's tough work you know.

My plan worked perfect. Just wanted to keep this entertainment going for everyone. I could care less what you think or your facts or that persons facts. Who really gives a flying @!$%# in the end? I love how you threw the marine thing up though. Big deal man. I am serving my country also but I don't go throwing that around. Maybe I should start now. It seems like the thing to do.

Heavensjoker,

Well first, nobody really cares that you are serving your country in regards to this discussion. The quote was about tenacity, not service. I see how this works. You want in on the conversation, so you take a shot at me. I get it. The only thing is, you have to have something interesting to say.

You don't.

Absolutely right. I just come here to irrate people like you. People that have to have facts for everything. You piss me off. I don't even have to meet you to know that. I like facts but I also like the possibility of miracles or things that cannot be explained by science. I agree that people shouldn't preach to nonbelievers or push their faith on other people. But you could also keep your facts to yourself. So I will always be here. Just waiting to take a shot at you or annoy you.

Yeah, dude nobody cares where you'll be. You aren't interesting. Remember the scene in "Saving Private Ryan", when the German soldier walks by Jeremy Davies character "Upham" and doesn't pay any attention to him because he knows he's not a threat...that's you.

Bye.

I think that it is absolutely wonderful that this little boys life was saved. Would I attribute it to a supernatural miracle? No. Be thankful to God, be thankful to the doctors who undoubtedly worked day and night to save him and finally his immune system just responded to his treatment. Do not however be thankful to a dead woman who lived hundreds of years ago and had absolutely nothing to do with his recovery.

Dont get me wrong, I am a spiritual person, I believe in God, I am not however religious, i do not believe in organized religion and do not go to church. I do believe that miracles can happen when they are brought by God as only God can do. Worshipping idols is strictly forbidden if you believe in the Bible. This little statue that they brought in, this supposed saint that they said healed the boy because they prayed to her is all idol worship, paganism. Have we forgotten how harshly the Israelites were punished for their worshipping of false Gods. We are to pray to the Lord and that is all. This woman was no more divine them myself or anyone else her on the vine. Even the Pope is breaking his on rules (which are not God's rules by the way) by allowing this woman to be named a saint without the required 2 miracles attributed to her. The Pope is such a joke and I really cant believe so many people follow him and worship him as if he were GOD, he is not. He is more likely of the Devil than he is of God. He doesn't follow what is written in the Bible and neither do Catholic churches. So many have been mislead, it is sad, they never had a chance to do it right.

Aside from the great news that this boys life was saved, the rest of this story is a bunch of garbage and should no be looked at as anything more than a bunch of people following the wrong path and forsaking the Lord that they claim to love. How sad that is.

@Heavensjoker89

I agree that people shouldn't preach to nonbelievers or push their faith on other people. But you could also keep your facts to yourself. So I will always be here. Just waiting to take a shot at you or annoy you.

So you are basically just an admitted troll?

This is a discussion board. Demanding people keep quiet on a discussion board is akin to demanding people don't dance at a night club or drink in a bar.

Fact is, I find comfort in MarineDocs statements because it tells me there are other intelligent people out there that are vocal and have lost their tolerance with the overt religious "enforcers". The worlds 4th largest religion "none" is quickly becoming the third, I hope I live long enough to see it be #1.

To the moderates: No one is preaching to remove your right to worship, in fact, both I and I am certain MarineDoc would both give our lives defending your right to do so. I was also combat arms for 14 years and "Heavensjoker89" I have trouble believing you serve, you wouldn't be such a little whiney bacha bazi.

There is no reason, no excuse that we need to have religion playing the political role it does. This is simply so the church can apply it's argumentum ad populem and keep itself relevant.

You can practice your faith openly or behind closed doors, it's up to you. My bible is the 1st Amendment of the United States and each soldier swears or affirms to uphold it, regardless if it conflicts with their beliefs or not. Remember, freedom of religion is also freedom "from" religion. in fact, it's the entire point.

MelBel.........Love it, thank you for saying what I was trying to acknowledge!! Love it!

Ghost...Why cant we have both? The 1st amendment and our spiritualty? I may not have served, my family members are and have. I would give my life for anyones 1st ammendment or just plain helping someone. Marine is doing the same thing to me, trying to stop me from saying my peace here, I deserve time on the blogs too. MarineDoc wsa intitled just as you are and I am our opinion.

This discussion was based on miracles, nothing more, and I was addressed by MarineDoc about my religion not the other way around, as I suspect Hevenly is trying to stand on Marine being the bully.

I respect your life style, respect ours too. Thats all, just accept there are people who protect and serve in different ways.

@MelBel

Which "version" of the bible exactly is the pope not following? I'm not trying to be confrontational, I'm simply curious as to your take which one is the "real" one.

And when I ask what "version" I am not referring to New/Old/BoM I am referring to which translation and of course which version of "Canonized" texts put in, compared to others left out.

King James, Revised Standard, New American, New English, New International, New World, Textus Receptus, Byzantine, Hebrew, Aramaic, et al.

(And if sounds like us "Atheists" seem to know an awful lot about a religion we don't believe in, you are right, we do )

Merry Christmas and by the way, if you have any images of Santa or a Christmas tree, you also are practicing "paganism" Nordic paganism by the way and honoring Sinterklaas a figure of nordic "Odin" or Germanic "Oden" which was the norse god of thunder adopted by the church to "christianize" northeastern Europe and make christianity a bit more palatable for those pesky nordic people.

(In case you were curious)

People need to be careful here. Beleif is powerful. Whether in the context of religion or not, beleif is powerful, and it can change a lot of things for a person.
With that said, just keep in mind, that with perpetually increasing health care costs combined with slowly diminishing services, these sort of incidences will only increase.

And do not get mad at the poor for trying.

And finally you MarineDoc....I too would love to buy you a beer or water. I DO NOT FEAR anyone, (ok with the exception of a judge lol) What I do fear is narrow minded people who don't let others have an opinion.

As for all this bantering, you sure did show me. It is too bad that in this big ol' world we haven't crossed paths in person, I really think we could enjoy each others company. You could enlighten me on my projecting my insecurities and fear of an invisible God( that is ONE GOD) beliefs and I could bring you a different perspective on being SPITIRUAL.

You are partially right about when I lay my head down, I do have faith the size of a seed. A MUSTARD SEED. Even that minuscule of a seed is enough to continue my FAITH.

Merry Christmas oh, no I mean Happy Holiday to you and yours MarineDoc, I sure hope I run into you at the Veterans Hospital where I serve my countrymen CHRISTMAS cheer.

Ghost...totally get where you are coming from here, the reason I am not Catholic! As for a tree or Santa, I gift give all year, I pass Christian Cheer as the day Jesus was born. (not the actual day I know but nonetheless the day we acknowledge.) The rest is just pagen agreed!

@youareabully

I think that you may be missing my point, and probably MarineDocs point as well. No one is saying don't worship, in fact, I believe if you re-read our statements we have been saying quite the opposite.

The difference is that not stopping someone or disagreeing with them vocally are two different things.

I can respect your right to do it, but I don't have to respect that you do it. Get my meaning?

How much respect do you have for someone that practices santaria? or Miss Cleo and her psychic friends network? Christianity looks equally as silly and insane to us.

How about muslim, Jaine or Sihk communities if they suddenly began putting their religious texts and idols on courthouse steps? Would you be so tolerant? I highly doubt it.

And before you argue that this was a country founded on "christian" values, of which, it was most decidedly not. Article XI of the treaty of tripoli 1796 (found in library of congress) states " the united states of America is not in any sense, founded on the christian religion". Don't take my word for it, go read it for yourself.

You have a right to practice your religion. I have to a right to call you on the BS when you try to insist me or my neighbor should follow it (or else).

If you want to understand my position, simply juxtapose your religion with a religion you do not believe in or even feel threatened by. Be honest with yourself and ask yourself if you would be ok.

Christianity at its root is a celebration and worship of human sacrifice. I'm sorry but I cannot begin to bring myself to even accept it as some kind of twisted virtue let alone blindly believe and follow.

@youareabully

Well if you are celebrating on Dec 25th as the day jesus was born, you may be very wrong. There was another religious figure born on Dec 25th, to a virgin, who was a savior of man, died to absolve mankind, and was both a god and the son of a god (oddly enough) some 6,000 years before the christian era was even a thought in anyones head.

The religion is Zoroastrianism and this christ figure was called "Mithra". This was a major religion of the persians well before the greeks and then romans adopted christianity.

Listen, the reason we don't believe this stuff is because we did. We wanted to know so much about it that we studied it, everything about it. Once you do that, and I don't mean going to bible/indoctrination studies, I mean learn of it's origins, the people that believed it, what they believed before it, locations influences, and ask why they changed their minds. The evolution of the religion is clear as day and the parallels unmistakable. All you need to do is educate yourself and be critical instead of listening to arguments from authority.

It all points to the same thing. That christianity is simply an amalgamation of middle eastern and south western european superstitions cemented and mainstreamed by a large government/civilization central to both (Rome) with large information superhighways of the time (roads from one end of the empire to the other).

@Ghost -

You have made your point, and quite frankly have done so with class. Thank you for shedding light on the subject without degrading those who do not hold your values and opinions.

Ghost

Got it! Repected and I only have one thing to add.. interesting twist to your last statement:

You state: "Christianity at its root is a celebration and worship of human sacrifice. I'm sorry but I cannot begin to bring myself to even accept it as some kind of twisted virtue let alone blindly believe and follow."

I see it as a sacrifice yes, twisted too, and murder of Gods son. I do see where you would have a hard time following it when you only see that. In my opinion, there is more to it than that.

Thank you for clearing it up. Happy Hollidays!

CMS5.......you are in my head!! lol.. thank you again! I wholeheartedly agree with you! Merry of Merriests to you and yours!

@

youareabully

Same to you as well. I wish you well this holiday season and hope it brings you the same happiness and uplifting spirits it does me.

Spending time with our children, being kind to one another, supporting each other and generally being a decent human being are virtues we all can share and requires no religious intervention to do so.

Cheers :)

@ Ghost- and @youareabully

Happy Holidays to you both!

youareabully,

Again, you are allowed to have your own opinion. You are not allowed your own facts. You are not allowed to request that people like me stop hammering that point home.

Say what you want, there will be a response. I really don't care if you don't like it.

I don't celebrate holidays. I don't think there is anything Holy about them. This season in particular emphasizes the hypocrisy of this culture in particular. If a person cannot have actual "christmas" cheer, and caring for his fellow man on a daily basis why pretend once a year? Why do you need to be reminded? As was pointed out, you don't even understand the origins of your own holiday. But still you continue. Why?

If you are too afraid to fully examine your beliefs, what does that say about your faith?

Care to play a bit of Jeopardy?:

"Blank" is a false belief held with absolute conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary. Please only answer in the form of a question...

Note to Ghost Óðinn (the wise--and the name of my dog) was the father of Þórr (I believe it was Thor who was most associated with thunder). The Edda's are fascinating. I had a friend from Iceland with whom I used to have really fascinating discussions about Norse Mythology. Judeo-Christian mythology would be fascinating too if it weren't for it's adherents.

MarineDoc....

You asked: Want to play Jeopardy?

Yes, and I will take Why are you such a jack wagon?! for a thousand DOC.

the answer: Because you have nothing better to do, than to bully people with your superior than you attitude. You might be book smart MarineDoc but you're nowhere near qualified for common sense.

You are trying to bait me into a discussion that we have already covered. I may not be the most intelligent person out here, but I am not dumb enough to fall for it all over again. I am going to take the road I should have taken in the beginning I am going to heed your own advise: Why am I paying the slightest bit of attnetion to you. lends underserved legitimacy to your arguments. nawww.. that is not who I am, that is who you are.

You should be done with me according to your earlier posting You state: "I have no interest in speaking to you. You haven't offered anything to this conversation, and my even paying the slightest bit of attention to you, lends undeserved legitimacy to your arguments".

Oh and yes I too did study, not medicine, but religion I know where we get most of the bogus thoughts from. I know what religions have done for this country, I know where we get the "original" story about a virgin mother blah blah blah. I DO NOT celebrate anyother pagen holiday except birthdays and the birth (now and in June) the death, in April/March of Jesus. See we do have something in COMMON!!

Well have a good life and take care. Like I said before see you around the Veterans Hospital.

Incorrect!! The answer is "What is 'delusional'" once again, "What is 'delusional'". We go to a commercial break with MarineDoc and Ghost tied for the lead with $25,000, each followed by by Yourabully with $-2,500.

So, now it's bullying? No, sorry, you don't get to use that. You posted here of your own volition, but now you want to cry bully because someone demonstrated that you are incorrect? I am well read, and trained in my job. I obtained this job by working several other jobs while in school. I've maneuvered my way around the world with very little money and out of interesting situations, so I think I have quite a bit of common sense. You on the other hand would prefer to cry foul and throw a tantrum when you've been proved wrong. Kind of sad, don't you think?

How is it that you studied religion, but have had your a$$ handed to you by all corners on the very topic that you claim expertise?

No, actually I'm not trying to bait you into a discussion. Quite frankly you are kind of boring. You say the same thing over and over and believe "fish" doc is humorous. I gave you an out a few posts back, I was hoping you'd take it. Don't let your pride get in the way.

Marinedoc

My question is how many are willing to die for their beliefs. Christians believe when they die they spend eternity at the god's throne strum the harp and sing his praises. As for me I am willing to die with my belief in fact when I do die I will still be an anti-theist. Even if I am wrong and find out after I die that the entire religious BS is true I will still be happy and gratified because I will not have to spend an eternity with a bunch of christians. Please reserve my front seat in hell if there is one.

A radical idea, I'll save you a seat...that's where all of the interesting people will be anyway. Could you imagine spending eternity with people with plastic smiles?

To be honest I did throw around the idea of charging "believers" a $500 non-refundable fee to care for their pets when the rapture was going to occur. Paid in advance and non-refundable if the rapture did not occur or they were not "beamed up" or whatever.

In the end the thought was funny, but felt that actually doing that would be cruel and taking advantage of peoples delusions.

Also, I agree, christian mythos is extremely interesting. I often do wonder what it would be like to hear someone berating another because they failed to say their prayers to Osiris and now the inundation would not occur. I can't imagine it would be much different than what we hear or see today.

Really the bottom line and primary driver in any religion is fear. Fear is a powerful emotion and can get us to override even the most stable minded of thoughts. Fear of the unknown, fear of the dark, of death, dying, or even loss.

I find the definition that faith is the absence of logic and belief where you know there really should be none as accurate. Besides, I think Hume nailed it when he said "Which is more likely: That the whole natural order is suspended or that a Jewish minx should tell a lie?"

I was watching the catholic channel the other day, because, well, it's like watching an ancient ritual worship to the sun god or along those lines. I was watching the use of candles. Always a lot of candles. Then I thought to myself, well, fire was a major misunderstood force that man could control. Control of fire I would bet would definitely have some kind of underpinnings in the first religions or rather the first priests/warlocks/witchdoctors what have you.

Amazing when you look at it from an unbiased, neglected sort of perspective. Imagine yourself observing someone practicing a religion that they take very very seriously but worships something absurd like sponge bob or the great spaghetti monster with great piety and reverence.

Imagine woman and men sacrificing their entire lives to be closer to sponge bob, taking vows of chastity, imagine schools springing up to teach the values of sponge bob. People killing other people in the name of sponge bob.

Imagine that sponge bob becomes so pervasive in your culture that others argue that everything that has no immediate explanation is due to sponge bob.

Meanwhile you are screaming inside "wtf he's just a goddamn cartoon character. "

When I look around at the marvelous buildings created and built to appease an invisible mystical sky being I cannot help but be amazed.

Jumping on MarineDocs bandwagon for a moment, some people spent their time and energy building churches, others building hospitals.

Of those two, which would you take your stricken child or loved ones to?

In closing, for the moderate religious I think Ayn Rand summed why you should be critical of the motivations of your priest or religious leader:

It only stands to reason that where there's sacrifice, there's someone collecting the sacrificial offerings. Where there's service, there is someone being served. The man who speaks to you of sacrifice is speaking of slaves and masters, and intends to be the master.

Ghost, that pet thing was brilliant, if I weren't such a nice guy (and I really am), and had thought of it, I would have taken advantage.

Well written. I saw an episode on the History or Discovery channel, I can't recall, that looked at the Old Testament from a tactical military perspective. One episode discussed the Exodus from Egypt...very interesting, as it was in a language I understood. Mythology really is fascinating.

Now, you'll have to excuse me, I need to pray to Squidward for help with this manuscript I'm supposed to be writing.

I was watching the catholic channel the other day, because, well, it's like watching an ancient ritual worship to the sun god or along those lines. I was watching the use of candles. Always a lot of candles. Then I thought to myself, well, fire was a major misunderstood force that man could control. Control of fire I would bet would definitely have some kind of underpinnings in the first religions or rather the first priests/warlocks/witchdoctors what have you.

This goes along with the creation of the gods and god. It all came about when Cro-Magnon man was huddled around the fire in the deep of the night and heard the wolves howling. We created the gods and god out of fear and fear keeps some of us in servitude.

There are millions of people who do believe in a higher power. There are millions who do not. Getting 'preachy' is just as welcome as factual hammering.

Sticking to the facts, the Pope will declare this a miracle.

Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, but I will make a couple of points:

1) The bible is the most read book in the world

2) There are more people who follow religion than those who don't.

I remember you. But here are a few more points:

1. You are not entitled to your own facts.

2. Interesting that you should say the bible is the most read book. I might believe it's a best seller, but I really doubt most of you have read it cover to cover. I have.

3. Your second point is also probably not correct. There are many people who SAY they do...practice is a different story.

So, all this means there are still alot of superstitious people wandering around this lovely planet. Being popular doesn't make you good or correct...or do I need to toss in a Justin Bieber comment?

Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, but I will make a couple of points:

1) The bible is the most read book in the world

2) There are more people who follow religion than those who don't.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3) At one point in time, most of the world believed the earth was flat. This was strongly defended by the church.

4) The creation myth is also very popular. The idea of the world being 6000-10000 years old was also pretty popular, until science intervened.

Your argument from popularity is nonsense. I'd say try again, but I'm sure it would be just as awful.

@MusicGirl23

Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, but I will make a couple of points:

If someone "believes" that you and your family should die in order to appease the sun god, are they entitled to that belief?

1) The bible has been marched from one end of the planet to the other militarily. Harry Potter has also been read (voluntarily btw) by millions and millions but that doesn't make him a real life character.

2) Argumentum Ad Populem is a typical fallacy a lot of religious use to argue the validity of their beliefs and work to reconcile their religion. Fact is the worlds 4th largest religion is "none" and quickly trending to 3rd.

As human understanding of the world, universe, etc expands, the room for a "god" to fill the void of misunderstanding and ignorance shrinks. Eventually there will be as much room for god as there is for Ms Cleo and her psychic phone readings being legitimate.

Whether this was a miracle or not, I cannot say

Yes, you can. It wasn't.

You reveal your prejudice as to why by capitalizing "Death", as if death were a sentient being, i.e. a demon or "fallen angel". He looked death in the eyes is a metaphor, not a statement of fact.

No, I revealed I watch "Family Guy" and "South Park" and "Billy and Mandy".

Eugene,

I have to admit that was a very nice come back. I was scoring this one in 99octanes favor by a mile, but the "Billy and Mandy" reference more than FG and SP, pushed you over the top. Well played. I will always think of the Grim Reaper with a Jamaican accent. :)

MarineDoc: Keep it under your hat, I'm too old to watch "Billy and Mandy" ;)

Eugene- I was going to guess that you might be a fan of Terry Pratchett's Discworld series of books.

Death also always speaks in CAPITOL LETTERS...

YOU RANG?! HA HA HA. and ha yes that was in bad taste but still funny. i fear not what i dont i know i embrace it and add it to my list of knowns when i realise i don't know or its worth knowing why waste time being dumb there's too much to learn and the list gets bigger every day.

hey I've met death hes not picky!

I thought the author's use of the pun "Jake's face-off with death" showed bad taste given the poor kid's face had been eaten. Prefer the joking around down here.

The Vatican:

"Your Holiness, we need something to distract the public from the 'behavior' of so many of our Priests"

"Hmm, you know, I just got this letter from Washington..."

Humans are a tough crowd. Believing that a supernatural god and/or demon is at work in your life is delusional and dangerous. It invariably leads to elitist and exclusionary behavior, and the de-humanizing of those who do not share the same beliefs. Read some history, and read it with a critical mind. For all the "good" any various gods do, the harm inflicted on our species by persisting in this ancient mythology is incalculable and all around us each and every day. The faithful will attribute such human failings to demons or "the devil", which is once again a human failure to take personal responsibility and act to change it.

No one is "allowing" them to believe or preventing it. The human species goes on whether any individual members believe in some kind of diety or another, or whether they don't. Really not that complicated.

Humans are a tough crowd. Believing that a supernatural god and/or demon is at work in your life is delusional and dangerous. It invariably leads to elitist and exclusionary behavior, and the de-humanizing of those who do not share the same beliefs. Read some history, and read it with a critical mind.

Well said 99Octane. And then there's the squandered collective human effort that is currently dedicated to the work of make-believe ancient superstition when we have serious problems right here in the real world. If people spent as much effort trying to cure cancer and overcome global climate change we would have tackled those and probably many other problems over the last 2000 years that religion has dominated (with an iron fist). Also, don't fool yourself, religion actively and systematically undermines real scientific progress and retards technological and medical breakthroughs. We all pay the price for this ignorance disguised in the cloak of morality...

I disagree Octane. (Hope you contain methanol, by the way. Reduces your carbon footprint.) Belief in a Supreme Being, at least within the confines of monotheism, helps keep us from deifying ourselves. It's when we begin worshiping/deifying ourselves, thinking we're gods, that we really begin to run off the rails. Think Caesar, Stalin, Hitler, Castro, Mao, Pol Pot, and Kim Il Jung. In the end, they thought they were the be all and end all of humanity. And see where that took them?

@Quiet Professional - That's the most nonsensical thing I've read in the last 12 minutes (see gloria above). A reasonable person understands that they are not a god. And Hitler was a Christian. It's pretty well documented. Got Mit Uns.

2Th 2:9 (TCN) For at the coming of the Lord there will be great activity on the part of Satan, in the form of all kinds of deceptive miracles, signs, and marvels, as well as of wicked attempts to delude.

2Th 2:9 (NKJ) The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders.

oh dear oh dear, we've awoken the thumpers...no wonder you have that moniker...

krell, I'm not sure what your belief system is. It doesn't matter because we all have the right to believe as we choose. This isn't really about miracles or not. It's the right to believe in them.

Personally, I agree with you on the level that why one can survive and so many others die. Why does an innocent child die and a scum bag rapist lives? Makes no sense to me. What I have CHOOSEN to believe for myself is that we are all put here for a purpose. (Stick with me) Once our purpose is served, we are called home to a better life. Now, I even have issues with my belief when a beautiful baby dies and some crap is left to wander the earth. But, it is what I try to hold to to make things make sense. Whether it is accurate, we will never know. Some people take up space and breathe precious air that should have been given to one of these children but for whatever reason, they were taken.

@Monkeysnana So the purpose of the rapist is to stick around and keep on rapin'? The world makes a lot more sense when you stop trying to apply meaning and purpose to every event, fortunate or awful. The argument just doesn't hold up.

Also, it is again evident that no one wants to own up to a matter. Most of the nonchristian world regards any religion that uses the bible as christian and thinks that all of the christian denominations are basically the same. This is very far from the truth that no one just wants to state. The fact is, that many christian denominations are at odds with each other - even to the point of hatred. Just admit it for once.

Daniel....

God said it himself.. he will never interfear with the choices of man or show himself to influence those choices. Instead all he requires from us is a leap of faith, Thats why those horrible events took place... not becuase he wasnt there.

Al these people here saying there is no god... well ive seen too many events in my life that had no SCIENTIFIC explaination.... to not believe there is a greater being that created us and everything around us is foolish and a lame effort to grasp the one "MYTH" that we had total control over what happens to us.

Daniel....

God said it himself in the Bible.. he will never interfear with the choices of man or show himself to influence those choices. Instead all he requires from us is a leap of faith, Thats why those horrible events took place... not becuase he wasnt there.

Al these people here saying there is no god... well ive seen too many events in my life that had no SCIENTIFIC explaination.... to not believe there is a greater being that created us and everything around us is foolish and a lame effort to grasp the one "MYTH" that we had total control over what happens to us.

The lack of an answer, and specifically YOUR lack of understanding in an answer, is not proof of the mythology of your creator. it is merely proof of your ignorance. Believe if you like, your right to do so. Suggesting others are foolish for not sharing your fantasy is exactly the sort of silliness that has always slowed humankinds progress in finding those answers.

unheardof: "well ive seen too many events in my life that had no SCIENTIFIC explaination...."

How do you know? We are learning new things from science all the time. You believe because of FAITH. That's fine, but just don't pretend science has anything to do with it.

ive seen too many events in my life that had no SCIENTIFIC explaination

Instead of reading your buybull, try reading a science book. All of those things you cannot explain are either already explained, or will be. If they are not yet explained, it does not in any way signify that your comic book hero exists.

Take the man-made events out of the equation, and let's talk about the rest. Nobody made hurricane Katrina or the earthquake in Haiti happen. And surely not all who died were guilty. So what then? Chalk that one up to mysterious ways?

"well ive seen too many events in my life that had no SCIENTIFIC explaination"

Yes, and the Vikings believed that a solar eclipse (no SCIENTIFIC explainable at the time) was caused by a wolf god eating the sun. They screamed and brandished their weapons at the eclipse until the sun was returned, and then celebrated that they were able to banish the evil wolf in the sky. However as soon as you learn a little astronomy you know that the eclipse would have ended anyway. Lack of scientific knowledge is NO REASON to resort to the supernatural. Ever.

Um, Norm? I think there's a hole in your tinfoil hat...

lol good but JESUS LOVES YOU

99octane... although I love your comment, and it made me laugh a real LOL

If there is no faith in you, not just you 99 all of these posters here, there is no reason to even read a story that was titled Miracle...

Come on admit it just a little...... you guys really do believe in GOD. Its ok, we wont bring bibles down and make you "join" our occult. Believing in GOD is who we are. We have FAITH. Just as the air we breath, we cant see it but we know it is there.

Oh and to answer those above that think GOD created this problem to begin with, no, MAN created the problem. God did not teach man how to hijack planes, GOD did not teach anyone how to make bombs. There is EVIL out there too folks, where the is GOOD there is EVIL.

So does Harry Potter you bloody fool.

Daniel......ahhh what does your comment have to do with the above postings??? Go back to your pipe.. oh and tell Harry Potter I am sick of his movies....

I read it because I am interested in the medical aspect of this case. The Pope and other nonsense associated with the story removes whatever joy I felt at the boy's recovery, since it afflicts so many of my species.

By the way, "Good and Evil" are human concepts, and do not exist. The pure definition will vary from person to person, culture to culture. They are more in line with hope and fear than they are of deity.

This case may end up in the medical literature, and there will be absolutely no mention of saints or miracles. Just the facts, the sequence of events, and the ultimate outcome. You know, the way it really happened?

Jesus. One of the coolest Marines I've ever met. But I think his last name is Lopez.

LOL, Marine...best laugh of the day, thanks!

youareabully,

I did not come here because of the word "miracle" I ignored that. I was more interested in the fact that a kid survived a case of necrotising fasciitis. It is, as the article states, a very rare disease and has a high mortality rate.

There are also no such thing as miracles that are caused by an extraterrestrial force ( aka god), they are caused by Humans who do heroic things. And for those cases where no action is involved it is just blind luck that is the culprit. This kid had something like a 96% chance of death, he was just part of the small percentage that get's to live.

We are not the ones who are trolling though, it was the parent's who trolled everyone by suggesting that the inclusion of the religious artifact helped at all. The credit for saving the kid all goes to the doctors with advanced medical degrees and the drugs they used, and by extension the companies that produced those drugs.

If there is no faith in you, not just you 99 all of these posters here, there is no reason to even read a story that was titled Miracle...

Are there rules for what atheists can read? Since theists shape so much of our society, it makes sense that all of us would show some interest in what they are doing.

Come on admit it just a little...... you guys really do believe in GOD.

I'm sure you don't intend to be insulting, but calling all atheists and agnostics liars...or, at best...incapable of knowing their own minds...is not very flattering. It suggests that your purpose is to alienate, or ridicule, rather than discuss or debate. It invites insults and ridicule in response.

Its ok, we wont bring bibles down and make you "join" our occult. Believing in GOD is who we are. We have FAITH. Just as the air we breath, we cant see it but we know it is there.

We can't see air...but we can most certainly see it's effects. We can measure air pressure, wind, measure the molecules and gases that comprise it...harness it's use for machinery or to create energy...it's not some unfathomable mystery. It's just see-through. Faith means believing in something without any evidence. I know a lot of people do that...or claim to...but I don't know why they seem to consider that a source of pride. It seems ill-advised since there are an infinite number of things that could be claimed or believed...and none of them have to be the least bit true...if evidence isn't required.

Oh and to answer those above that think GOD created this problem to begin with, no, MAN created the problem.

Are you suggesting that bacteria is man-made? Or are you just doing that thing that theists do...blame everything they don't like on man or satan...and everything they do like on their god? You'd think an omnipotent god would be able to take care of a few more of these man/satan created problems before so many children were maimed or killed, and an onniscient one would prevent them from happening at all.

God did not teach man how to hijack planes, GOD did not teach anyone how to make bombs. There is EVIL out there too folks, where the is GOOD there is EVIL.

This isn't about terrorists...this is about non-sentient bacteria and a young child who was infected, disfigured, and nearly died. Was the bacteria "evil"? If the child had died...theists would say it was part of god's plan....unknowable and unchangeable by mere mortals. Which would give this god the credit for making the child sick to begin with...in order to fulfill his plan. But if the child recovers, then it was never part of gods plan that he get sick at all...that was man or "evil".

This is why atheism has tripled in this country. Belief systems that are so insulting to logic or common sense are increasingly difficult to sell to an educated public.

JESUS said

The problem with people like you is that you read a silly comic book, but it doesn't have all of the illustrations that make it easy for you to understand with your childlike minds. If there were brightly colored characters, with black outlines and dialogue balloons, it would make much more sense.

Oh, and "Jesus" never said anything, since he is a comic book hero created by some ancient Stan Lee.

Amen youareabully...lol. I loved it.

@ NOT KIDDING...wow you had a lot to say, I think you are entitled to your thoughts, I mean NO DISRESPECT to an athiests or agnostics but.....

While I appreciate you read my post, I never have had someone break it down so I guess I will reply as you broke it down:

Believers and non believers are allowed to read anything they want, might I suggest the Bible?

No intention of insulting anyone, I was being playful with some of the posters. I will make certain I do not make that mistake again. Thank you for pointing that out, when I want to be insulting I will just spit it right out. ((rarely happens))

We will never see this one the same.. I don't think any believer and non believer will, this is the whole meaning of FAITH. We do not see air, but we can measure the outcome of it. This is the same for GOD, we cant see Him but we can measure the outcome. We can feel his love; I feel the cold air; because of these reasons no one (athiest or agnostic) can convince a true Christian our FAITH is bogus.

Hmmm this next one is a doozie...I do think that MAN human beings made bacteria, we make a lot of germs, created in labs or by not washing our hands after using the potty. There are a lot of things we as humans are responsibe for. Why would we blame GOD or the Devil for mans choices? Although I would love to blame all bad things on a devil, I just don't think he is here living among us. I think there are bad people that are influenced by evil. In all truth I do not have an answer for you why bad things happen to good people, I am just as confused as anyone on that. Sometimes I think its for a lesson, sometimes I think.. Why would you (God) do that? Most of the time I just think, you (God) said we have to come on our own and He wont get involved in "mans doom". When I die and am sitting with Him I will be asking these very questions. In the mean time, I do believe we make things happen ourselves, not God.

Not Kidding, I truly wish I had answers to why good people get killed, raped, beat up, well you name it, anything bad at all. I can tell you that when we are presented with a challenge it is easier for us Christians to go through it with GOD than alone. I can tell you our hearts break for people that we dont know when their kids are rapped or killed. My beliefs say God is crying too, He doesn't want to sit back and watch but He does not interfere in MANS CHOICES.

Gosh I think of the things He has done and no one knows cuz it didn't happen. Who knows. Bottom line is....You are right I never meant to hurt anyones feelings, or belittle them. It was to come accross as playful, I see my sense of humor does not translate well if I don't add HAHA.

Oh one more thought: the reason Athiests have tripled....(if they have) I think its because people are listening to all this crap and loosing the faith they had. These are the days where who is made up of what will come out. But please don't think for one moment that the thiest as you put it are not out there in full force with enough faith and love for those that don't have it.

"Come on admit it just a little...... you guys really do believe in GOD"

Thank you so much for telling me what I believe in.

"Just as the air we breath, we cant see it but we know it is there."

Air is demonstrably true. You can "see" it by blowing up a balloon. I have seen no demonstration of your, or any other god.

".I do think that MAN human beings made bacteria"

Is this true of the black plague that ravished Europe a few hundred years ago before there was any such thing as a laboratory?

@ Greame

No to answer your question not the beginning of it, the Black Plague came from Fleas, then due to MAN not understanding the bacteria and how to contain it, it became a pandemic and a life of its own. BUT.. Man still added to the pandemic.

Some thought it was GOD punishing them, some thought if you didn't bath it could not touch you hense the ed et toiliet purfumes. BUT... needlesstosay the Black plague started with a flea... How the flea got it, we will never know.

I was not telling you what you believed in, I was teasing. Geesh for the love of GOD, I WAS NOT TELLING ANYONE what to think, believe or not, it was MY thoughts and I shouldn't have teased I get that now. Way too many serious people here.

No. The Black Death did not "start with a flea". It's caused by infection with Yersinia pestis--a bacteria. Actually we KNOW why the rat flea carries it. It's not a mystery. It's part of the life cycle of the bacterium. Geez, there's even a well written wiki-freaking-pedia article on how fleas carry it.

yourabully,

I do think that MAN human beings made bacteria, we make a lot of germs, created in labs or by not washing our hands after using the potty.

Completely wrong. We do not cause things like Hepatitis E to exist by not washing out hands, they already exist within nature. We are no different then any other animal on this planet; our bodies use bacteria in the processing of food, fighting off infections, and destroying foreign cells.

For example our intestinal tract contains several strains of E. Coli that help us in the digestion process. Bacteria and viruses are as old as the World it's self it. They were around long before the dinosaurs and long before the first mammal set foot on land. They continually evolve in response to their environment.

Now here is where you are correct about us causing bacterium to change. When you do not finish off a prescription of antibiotics and over use anti-bacterial soaps you are adding to the likelihood of creating a super bug. These are normal viruses and bacteria that evolve or are mutagens in response to many things, the things mentioned above included. Bugs like MRSA are caused by Humans who do not follow their Doctor's instructions and then the bacterium becomes resistant to the drugs that use to fight it and new ways to kill it must be discovered.

MRSA is actually a dangerous form of a common and almost harmless bacteria called staphylococcus aureus. It is present on the skin of almost all life and can be found in the nasal canals as well. Due to the improper use of antibiotics by patients it became resistant to nearly all forms of antibiotics and is now akin to the boogeyman. It is highly contagious and will kill you without prompt medical treatment with expensive drugs (something like $280 a pill in tablet form). MRSA is very similar to NF in some ways, it eats away at fatty tissues, leaving behind a necrotic area on the skin which can become infected with other bacteria.

But we never "created" it in a lab. It was born in the wild because of stupid people. We have never created a bacteria that is now in the wild, we have only fostered their personal evolution or mutation through our actions.

As to the last quip about atheists tripling. It is more likely that people are becoming rightfully disenchanted with organized religion and realizing it for what it is, a sheep farm. Religion is a personal aspect of one's like an no one should read the bible or follow its teachings unless they have interpreted it for themselves. No one can tell you what to believe in religion, you have to make the choice of which parts of the Bible you will follow and which you will not. You have no obligation to follow it in it's entirety, it is not a binding contract, it is not a legal document.

The more people are waking up to this fact the more they also realize that they need no religious affiliation to have faith. Faith is not a product of religion, religion is a product of faith.

I see I should have said what bacteria the flea had. Shoot have to cover every basis with you three.... I am conceeding... you all know so much more than me! What a great world to have the 3 of you in it, making life safe for us all.

Thanks for the schooling. I will be more specific in my conversations in the future. Again, thanks!

The first part of your statement is the real deal. There is something in this kid's immune system that was able to EVOLVE to adapt and kill this bacteria. This needs to be studied.

(Please pass out tri-antibiotic ointment to school personnel, and educate them and the children/adolescents in the essential use of it. Prevention is always the best cure!) - RC

PS - BTW, the placebo effect may actually be faith based healing. People don't always make the connection, because it is not always associated with religion, but people have faith in many other things besides religion. - RC

I can almost guarantee that the kid did not receive placebo treatment. By the way, many people are allergic to neomycin, one of the antibiotics in triple antibiotic ointment. Better to use double antibiotic ointment without the neomycin.

Nope, sorry. The placebo effect is an effect in the person OBSERVING the results of a treatment. It's a perceived improvement in subjective problems. It cannot be related to objective recovery.

Faith! Love it! It's true!

and if a believer of another FAITH said that their god did a miracle, you would reject it.

Reason. Medical science. Love it! It's true!

Believe what you want, just remember that faith doesn't mean something is true so its wrong to inflict your belief on others (influencing how you vote for example).

Rob-carpenter..No. I wouldn't. In fact, I'm not a Christian. It doesn't bother me in the least that the Vatican attributes this as a Miracle. Not at all. I don't really care who label's how. That young fellow was gifted a longer life and HE is tough!

Very well said JuanPerez-2021672 - Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. I don't mind if people think I am ignorant for having faith, or hope, or love. But it does sadden me to see people bashing each other.

If it was a miracle...if all that was required to heal this child was faith...then let's stop wasting our time and money on medical science. Let's get rid of hospitals and doctors and medicine. We don't need any of those things...not if we really really really have faith.

The non believers will all die of treatable diseases and the faithful will never get sick, they'll just live forever in perfect health...and be a lot richer with all that money saved on healthcare.

Wait....why isn't that happening already?

It is not faith that healed this boy, it was EVOLUTION.

Anyone attributing this to a miracle simply has their cranium embedded too far inside of their rectum to see this.

You are wise to have noticed this, it's probably because 10% of african american males (and a large portion of females, due to lyonization) have G6PD deficiency, and cannot filter out these types of infections, not even a little. Most folks don't even know they have it. It is believed it started like sickle cell, confers an immunity against malaria, but it's not proven. I am 100% Italian, have the mediterranean variant, very severe, very rare.

Well Linda, your level of knowledge is far beyond mine. All I know is to help keep my Black friends away from that bacteria! But I didn't notice this (?) I've practiced this way over the last decade. bravo~

Are. You. Freaking. Kidding. Me?

Miracles do happen and when medical science has no explanations then you know that the devine is at work as He always is

So no explanation equals proof? So when there is no explanation why someone dies from a painful, torturous disease that is also proof of existence, right?

Actually, medical science often has no explanation---why is that "proof" of anything but our own ignorance and lack of medical discovery? When we didn't know what bacteria was because we had no way to "see" it, was it proof of anything but our lack of scientiic advancement?

Got it AP-1414966  ----   And you can tell the world the wooden statue of Mary at Akita, japan that wept blood 101 times before countless witnesses and Japanese TV cannot be a miracle  --"We just don't have the natural explanation for it yet."      You do not want God to manifest Himself in any way, do you?

Well now, when sticks of wood actually spout blood, you might have a point. Over and over and over again, people around the world are very, very easily led and easily fooled. Strips of bacon with the face of Mary. Crying marble. Floating clouds in shapes of crosses. If there is a God, somehow I do not think doing parlour tricks for your amusement would be terribly high on the agenda. However, if I were to start a religion aimed at convincing millions of easily led to behave in certain ways so they might "earn" a later reward, all convinced they belong to their own different superior "club" of believers, I might start with "miracles".

AP -- It might be for you to start a religion, but it's not for you to perform a miracle. That is only done via the supernatural, be it God or the devil. Spare me your argument about grill cheese sandwiches, etc., this is not about who is gullible, this is about does God exist and has He manifested himself in empirical miracles? Yes. Fatima, Portugal 1917 --- three shepherd children all under 10 see the Virgin Mary. She tells them on July 13 to tell the people that she will perform a miracle on October 13. 70,000 people are there on Oct 13 including atheists and communists and all testify to the miracle of the sun spinning, shooting off colorful rays, dancing, bouncing, charging the earth, in complete defiance of cosmic laws. How did three children predict such an event to the very day?

Yes, actually it would be for me to perform a "miracle". All anyone need do is convince enough people one had happened. Gullible? Yes. I'm afraid that's a real word and a real explanation for a very real and perfectly understandable human shortcoming. We simply want to believe there is an answer and we don't know that answer so we "invest" in something that comforts us. Didn't we once believe, before science proved otherwise, that life could spring from inanimate objects? Before we could see cells, "see" the stuff of life, didn't we humans believe much much differently about how life was formed? Had I been there in 1917, I'm sure the obvious, simple, human explanation to your story would be quite different to your purported "miracle" and perhaps didn't happen at all. (really..."atheists" and "communists"?? Communism only began in Russia that year with Stalin in 1917. I think you better leave that one out of your next story.)

"We just don't have the natural explanation for it yet." You do not want God to manifest Himself in any way, do you?

Chris Angel must be god then, unless you can explain how he pulls off the stunts he does. And if you say they're all tricks, the same explanation can (and most logically) be true about "weeping" statues. Snake Oil anyone?

Strange that an omnipotent god would have to rely on these cheap stunts. Why couldn't he just...show up? Do something that cannot possibly be mistaken for anything else? He used to walk around in the garden with Adam and Eve, didn't he? He talked to Moses. He parted seas and turned staffs into snakes. All sorts of things...yet not a peep since the book of stories about him was written. Nothing. Just stunts. Weird.

Not Kidding, his power has waned since the days of universe creation but you can sometimes catch him appearing on toast.

AP – I am not talking about trickery, I am talking about the miraculous. You, in all your wisdom, are doing all you can to convince yourself that such supernatural manifestations are impossible and never happened. I can only speculate as to why you want to remain obstinate, but in most cases it is to avoid accountability and allow yourself the freedom to live your life as you choose without guilt. It is the path of a fool the Bible says. No, the regime in Portugal was not yet communist in 1917, but it was Marxist and very anti-clerical as many priests were imprisoned. The Marxist newspaper of Lisbon "O Seculo" reluctantly reported on the events and that is in print if you had the desire to follow up. The miracle of Fatima is as real as your own life, but you do not want to believe.

You could also read articles from the NYTimes, May and Aug of 1968, reporting on hundreds of thousands of Egyptians who witnessed the Virgin Mary on top of a Coptic Cathedral in a suburb of Cairo on many different nights. But why should you accept the eye witness testimony of a few hundred thousand Egyptian Muslims? After all, it's always mass hallucination to the skeptic.

You could also read articles from the NYTimes, May and Aug of 1968, reporting on hundreds of thousands of Egyptians who witnessed the Virgin Mary on top of a Coptic Cathedral in a suburb of Cairo on many different nights.

And David Copperfield made the Statue of Liberty disappear before a live audience and millions of TV viewers. By your example it must have been a miracle, because so many witnessed an impossibility that day. Explain the difference to me. I dare you.

Dave Copperfield's trick has a natural explanation. The Virgin Mary appearing in an icy form on the roof of an Egyptian Cathedral on 20 different nights, highly illumined and moving about blessing the crowd, where some photos of her capture the image and many other cameras do not, where plumes of orange and purple smoke surround the cathedral with no investigator able to explain the light source, where many doves fly above Mary's head in the night sky each time at a dizzying speed (even though doves do not fly at night), where tens of thousands see her and marvel (see photos) but many others do not, where God is free to do as he pleases, ---- THIS carries no natural explanation despite all who have witnessed it or investigated it. That is the difference. Yet you think you can demand how God should act and how he should not.

I am not talking about trickery, I am talking about the miraculous.

As this story nicely demonstrates....calling something miraculous simply because you don't understand exactly what happened...is a form of trickery.

You, in all your wisdom, are doing all you can to convince yourself that such supernatural manifestations are impossible and never happened.

There certainly wasn't the slightest bit of evidence of anything remotely supernatural at play here...no visions seen by thousands, no dancing lights, no flocks of faithful being miraculously cured of paralysis, leprosy and blindness...all the usual stuff....yet it's being called a miracle. If this wasn't the internet age where the story and pictures were already 'out there' , no doubt in time the healing this boy went through would become more and more miraculous in the telling of it...until he is being raised from the dead without blemish...and nary a medical doctor in sight.

I can only speculate as to why you want to remain obstinate, but in most cases it is to avoid accountability and allow yourself the freedom to live your life as you choose without guilt. It is the path of a fool the Bible says.

Yet you don't even see your own absolute foolishess in your insulting and ridiculous assumptions?

People don't believe in this stuff...because it's not believable.

This lie that theists tell...of how some people don't believe in gods because they want to 'sin'...is so incredibly stupid that even they should see it for the self-serving piece of sheep-dung that it is. Decades of studies done all over the world have shown that atheists, agnostics and the non-religious are absolutely no less moral, and (if you factor in the lack of religiously motivated or supported discrimination), arguably more moral...than theists. To say otherwise...is to repeat an ignorant lie. Nothing more.

If the only reason you might behave morally is because you think there is an invisible being who knows your every thought and deed, and who will punish you for eternity if you don't....and non-theists behave morally (and they do) because they have no desire to behave immorally...who's on the fool's path?

The miracle of Fatima is as real as your own life, but you do not want to believe.

It may have been a real visual phenomena of some sort...no doubt staring directly into the sun for awhile would help that along...but a miracle? No one else in the world saw anything amiss with the sun. The sun itself obviously wasn't actually dancing around or hurtling towards the earth...that's impossible and would have destroyed our solar system...so what they said they saw wasn't something that actually happened. There have been reports of similar hallucinatory or visual phenomena at different times and places...with no "divine foretelling" or other hoopla. I dont think we have all the information needed to know what they actually saw...or if they saw anything...but not knowing means we don't know. It doesn't mean it's a miracle.

After all, it's always mass hallucination to the skeptic.

Interesting that it is easier for you to automatically assume it's something supernatural than anything remotely plausible. There have been reported sightings of ghosts, fairies, UFO's and so on, since the beginning of time. Do you believe they are all true? Or only the religious ones? Or only the religious ones that pertain to your religion?

Seriously....any god worth his salt would just SHOW UP. These ridiculous stunts and parlor tricks would only convince extremely gullible people who wanted to believe anyway. If your god was real and wanted converts...he could just DO something god-like. Make himself known the way he did in the god story book. That's the trouble with imaginary friends...they always let you down when you're trying to prove their validity to others.

["People don't believe in this stuff...because it's not believable."]

Of course not, but you will believe that if you stare at a canary long enough it will turn into a wolverine. That's how absurd, and pride filled, man has gone. They actually believe that evolution could have occurred all on its own without any intelligent designer or guiding force that exceeds the powers of humanity by a million. No, instead a bunch of molecules just started crashing into each other at some rave party and created babies. And it happened so perfectly trillions of times over to get from DNA molecule to amoeba to human being. Yes, all this without God. Did I insult you? You should be.

And it happened so perfectly trillions of times over to get from DNA molecule to amoeba to human being. Yes, all this without God. Did I insult you? You should be.

But it didn't happen perfectly. More species have died off naturally than there ever was species at any one time. Because natural selection and evolution are not perfect. Now if intelligent design was the driving force, especially design by an "all knowing, all powerful" being, wouldn't any living thing ever created intelligently still be around today barring worldwide mass extinctions (I guess those were Mulligans)?

Dave Copperfield's trick has a natural explanation.

Please, by all means, explain it. Then tell me why any "miracle" is any different.

Of course not, but you will believe that if you stare at a canary long enough it will turn into a wolverine. That's how absurd, and pride filled, man has gone.

Honestly...you should make the effort to understand evolution...even a little...before you try to argue against it. Otherwise you just look like you'd rather be dishonest to make a point.

They actually believe that evolution could have occurred all on its own without any intelligent designer or guiding force that exceeds the powers of humanity by a million.

I believe things that have been proven true. There is unlimited evidence for the fact that species can and do evolve. That's been proven without any possible doubt. That doesn't mean there aren't beings smarter than we are, somewhere out in the cosmos, who never interact with us....but it wouldn't make sense to arbitrarily believe in things that have no evidence or proof of any kind.

No, instead a bunch of molecules just started crashing into each other at some rave party and created babies. And it happened so perfectly trillions of times over to get from DNA molecule to amoeba to human being. Yes, all this without God. Did I insult you? You should be.

Not me...it's your lack of understanding and education that you are advertising for all to see....not mine.

Evolution doesn't address abiogenesis. Two entirely different subjects. One proven 100 times over...the other pure conjecture from everyone...since no one...not one person on the planet...knows how life began. There are lots of stories, myths, theories, and wild-ass guesses. But no one knows...because we have not found any evidence or proof of how it all began. Not yet.

A god of the gaps...the one that you trot out to "explain" all the things we don't yet know...is a shrinking god. Every new discovery, every mystery that science unravels, every new bit of knowledge and information, chips another chunk off your deity.

Honestly...you should make the effort to understand evolution...even a little...before you try to argue against it. Otherwise you just look like you'd rather be dishonest to make a point.

Honestly, you should be more forthcoming instead of trying to be clever about all this. Who cares if a wolverine came from a canary or not, that is hardly the point? The point is that in teaching evolution it is taught that at one time what preceded these highly developed invertebrates, their ancestors were nothing more than parameciums or other micro-organisms. At somewhere along the chain of evolution as these little bugs kept changing and changing, someone decided to grow eyes, and wings, and livers, and tendons, and reproductive systems and nervous sytems and on and on. And you all accept these little tasks all were done without any intelligent designer, at least no proof of it. This is insulting to anyone's ability to reason. No one would ever accept that a beautiful painting could have happened on its own without a designer. We know there had to be an intelligent creator, we did not have to observe its creation to establish that. And yet… you and your gifted scientists will not allow the same reason to enter into creations a million times more complicated and ordered than a painting.

Evolution doesn't address abiogenesis. Two entirely different subjects. One proven 100 times over...the other pure conjecture from everyone...since no one...not one person on the planet...knows how life began. There are lots of stories, myths, theories, and wild-ass guesses. But no one knows...because we have not found any evidence or proof of how it all began. Not yet.

You have proven nothing. You have avoided the even more difficult origins in saying "evolution does not go that far back." Of course not, you have enough troubles with the present. As far as not having found any proof of how it all began, that is because you run away from the evidence or proof for God. That has been demonstrated 100 times over, not evolution. That is the only thing that makes sense and can be reasoned.

A god of the gaps...the one that you trot out to "explain" all the things we don't yet know...is a shrinking god. Every new discovery, every mystery that science unravels, every new bit of knowledge and information, chips another chunk off your deity.

I cannot help you, sorry. Your motives are obvious and so sadly misguided. Why are you so afraid of God and death? Quit getting angry over insulting voices like mine and take it upon yourself to study the evidence for God and theology the Catholic Church has taught about heaven, hell and purgatory. One would think they would want to be with their loved ones for all eternity, not just for a few years on earth at best. That sounds so dreadful.

Wow...you are sure cranky. I'm just a bit exasperated, but more amused than angry. This is same old argument that's gone on a million times before.

Ok...so either your comment about staring at a canary until it turns into a wolverine was a deliberately gross misrepresentation of the mechanics of evolution...or you genuinely don't understand the mechanics of evolution. Either way...it really didn't help your cause. If you want to discount something, you should be able to demonstrate that you at least understand it first.

And you all accept these little tasks all were done without any intelligent designer, at least no proof of it.

There is absolutely no question that those "little tasks" were all done. Animals have evolved from one species into another, and within species. That isn't in dispute....we have far too much evidence for anyone to disagree with that. What you are trying to do is insert a "how and why" that we don't yet know, and, more importantly, aren't pretending to know in the absence of any verifiable information. We don't know...and there is not one shred of evidence or proof or even information that remotely suggests...that there is some invisible, magical being who lives in the sky and made us all out of dirt and spare body parts.

You have proven nothing. You have avoided the even more difficult origins in saying "evolution does not go that far back."

Evolution is proven. All living things evolve. That's proven. Evolution doesn't address the beginnings of life, because we don't have the information needed to understand that. Not yet. So what? The answer to 'how did life begin' is... we don't know yet. Not magic.

There is no proof of gods. Proof is something that everyone else can verify for themselves. It is consistent and can be replicated and demonstrated. Not a "feeling". Or a belief. Or interpretating everything that is not understood as being magical.

Why are you so afraid of God and death?

Now that's funny. Aren't you supposed to be a bit more subtle about that? If I was afraid of your gods...I would obey them, wouldn't I? By making it clear I know they don't exist...and that I find the entire concept facile and ridiculous...how am I showing fear? Sigh. I'm a bit more concerned about death of course...I'd rather not do that anytime soon, I'm having far too much fun here...but we all die...no elaborate stories will change that.

Quit getting angry over insulting voices like mine and take it upon yourself to study the evidence for God and theology the Catholic Church has taught about heaven, hell and purgatory. One would think they would want to be with their loved ones for all eternity, not just for a few years on earth at best. That sounds so dreadful.

What sounds dreadful is choosing to believe in a deity that would require you to spend eternity praising and adoring him while he is simultaneously horrifically torturing your loved ones (who didn't make the cut) every single moment of that eternity with no hope of reprieve or mercy.

I couldn't believe any of that...even if I tried...it's all just too...nasty. Sounds more like something a bunch of vindictive old men trying to frighten others would come up with...not something a being clever enough to create a universe would do.

"70,000 people are there on Oct 13 including atheists and communists and all testify to the miracle of the sun spinning, shooting off colorful rays, dancing, bouncing, charging the earth,"

Oh please. Have you ever actually LOOKED at the sun? Do it. (not for too long though). 70,000 people all staring at the sun started to see their vision dance around? Really? No kidding! Just look directly at the sun for 5 seconds or so, and then look away. You will see the exact same things your just described. This is not a miracle. This is how the eye and brain interpret light.

"someone decided to grow eyes, and wings, and livers"

Again you show your gross misunderstanding of evolution. Nothing "decided" to grow wings. If it was beneficial for a creatures offspring to have wings, or eyes, or whatever, the ones with with best developed wings or eyes or whatever were able to survive long enough to have offspring of their own.

"No one would ever accept that a beautiful painting could have happened on its own without a designer."

Ah, the old argument from design that was debunked long ago. A painting is not a biological organism. A painting does not reproduce and have offspring. Nor does a Boeing 747, or a pocket watch.

"Why are you so afraid of God and death?"

Again, the theist telling us what we believe. I am not afraid of something which I do not believe exists. I am not afraid of bigfoot either.

"One would think they would want to be with their loved ones for all eternity, not just for a few years on earth at best."

The universe does not care one bit what you might want. I want to be tall and muscular. But I'm not. I accept reality as it is.

greame ---   I really do not have time here at work, sorry.    Two points:   70,000 witnesses, many who were there to mock it.    Before the sun broke out from the dark clouds the people were soaked to the bone standing on very muddy soaked ground.   After 12 minutes of this phenomemnon they all testified their clothes and the ground was bone dry.    Imagined, again?       Below is one testimony of a science professor who was there.   The testimony is calm and makes no speculations of whether it was God or who that made this happen, just a clinical observation.   

The Miracle of the Sun

An Eyewitness Account by Dr. José Maria de Almeida Garrett, professor at the Faculty of Sciences of Coimbra, Portugal

"It must have been 1:30 p.m when there arose, at the exact spot where the children were, a column of smoke, thin, fine and bluish, which extended up to perhaps two meters above their heads, and evaporated at that height. This phenomenon, perfectly visible to the naked eye, lasted for a few seconds. Not having noted how long it had lasted, I cannot say whether it was more or less than a minute. The smoke dissipated abruptly, and after some time, it came back to occur a second time, then a third time
"The sky, which had been overcast all day, suddenly cleared; the rain stopped and it looked as if the sun were about to fill with light the countryside that the wintery morning had made so gloomy. I was looking at the spot of the apparitions in a serene, if cold, expectation of something happening and with diminishing curiosity because a long time had passed without anything to excite my attention. The sun, a few moments before, had broken through the thick layer of clouds which hid it and now shone clearly and intensely.
"Suddenly I heard the uproar of thousands of voices, and I saw the whole multitude spread out in that vast space at my feet...turn their backs to that spot where, until then, all their expectations had been focused, and look at the sun on the other side. I turned around, too, toward the point commanding their gaze and I could see the sun, like a very clear disc, with its sharp edge, which gleamed without hurting the sight. It could not be confused with the sun seen through a fog (there was no fog at that moment), for it was neither veiled nor dim. At Fatima, it kept its light and heat, and stood out clearly in the sky, with a sharp edge, like a large gaming table. The most astonishing thing was to be able to stare at the solar disc for a long time, brilliant with light and heat, without hurting the eyes or damaging the retina. [During this time], the sun's disc did not remain immobile, it had a giddy motion, [but] not like the twinkling of a star in all its brilliance for it spun round upon itself in a mad whirl.
"During the solar phenomenon, which I have just described, there were also changes of color in the atmosphere. Looking at the sun, I noticed that everything was becoming darkened. I looked first at the nearest objects and then extended my glance further afield as far as the horizon. I saw everything had assumed an amethyst color. Objects around me, the sky and the atmosphere, were of the same color. Everything both near and far had changed, taking on the color of old yellow damask. People looked as if they were suffering from jaundice and I recall a sensation of amusement at seeing them look so ugly and unattractive. My own hand was the same color.
"Then, suddenly, one heard a clamor, a cry of anguish breaking from all the people. The sun, whirling wildly, seemed all at once to loosen itself from the firmament and, blood red, advance threateningly upon the earth as if to crush us with its huge and fiery weight. The sensation during those moments was truly terrible.
"All the phenomena which I have described were observed by me in a calm and serene state of mind without any emotional disturbance. It is for others to interpret and explain them. Finally, I must declare that never, before or after October 13 [1917], have I observed similar atmospheric or solar phenomena."
Professor Almeida Garrett's full account may be found in Novos Documentos de Fatima (Loyala editions, San Paulo, 1984)

To: Not Kidding,

Ok...so either your comment about staring at a canary until it turns into a wolverine was a deliberately gross misrepresentation of the mechanics of evolution...or you genuinely don't understand the mechanics of evolution.
Gross misrepresentation??? Give me a break! It's merely a comical oversimplification, but in no way over-dramatizes what you claim. 'Tis far easier for a canary to change into a wolverine than it is for a micro-organism to become one. After all, the canary already has in place all of the vital organs and biological systems vertebrates require, whereas an amoeba still has to invent all these amazing machines. So please do not try to mock me as though I am mocking evolution, I am merely restating what you believe in a more comical, but far less complicated, way.

There is absolutely no question that those "little tasks" were all done. Animals have evolved from one species into another, and within species. That isn't in dispute....we have far too much evidence for anyone to disagree with that.

Sure you do. That is why there are highly qualified scientists, some who are agnostics even, who think your "proofs" are anything but. The fossil record says this --- "it never happened!" Steven M. Stanley (born November 2, 1941) is an American paleontologist and evolutionary biologist at the University of Hawaii at Manoa. He is best known for his empirical research documenting the evolutionary process of punctuated equilibrium in the fossil record.

Here is what Steven Stanley, an expert in the field and believer in evolution, says, quote: "The known fossil record fails to document a single example of phyletic evolution accomplishing a major morphologic transition and hence offers no evidence that the gradualistic model can be valid." No evidence, did you catch that?

What you are trying to do is insert a "how and why" that we don't yet know, and, more importantly, aren't pretending to know in the absence of any verifiable information.

And yet you know it happened. Bunk! Consider this:

Stephen Gould Quote: ""Paleontologists have paid an enormous price for Darwin's argument. We fancy ourselves as the only true students of life's history, yet to preserve our favored account of evolution by natural selection we view our data as so bad that we almost never see the very process we profess to study. We believe that Huxley was right in his warning. The modern theory of evolution does not require gradual change. In fact, the operation of Darwinian processes should yield exactly what we see in the fossil record. It is gradualism we should reject, not Darwinism.".

Gould is not attacking evolution, but he is making an argument for punctuated equilibrium. So to review the arguments of two of the most revered high priests of evolution.

Gould & Co: A exists because X is present. There is no evidence for Y.
Dawkins & Co: A exists because Y is present. There is no evidence for X.
.
Conclusion: There is no evidence that experts agree on exist for A. Therefore A is not only yet unproven, it is very highly suspect since, some of the finest experts on the matter highly doubt the presence of the necessary evidence for it to exist. Here in the 21st century when science has made remarkable discoveries unimaginable, they still cannot identify proof of how we evolved that the experts can agree upon.

Essentially, Gould disproves Dawkins claim for evolution because he says there is no evidence for Gradual evolution. Or does Gould have no credibility? Dawkins disproves Gould's claim for evolution because he says there is no evidence for punctuated equilibrium (i.e. monster steps). Or does Dawkins have no credibility?

The most knowledgeable man on evolution in the world Stephen Gould balks at the claims of gradual evolution yet public schools and universities everywhere insist it be taught as fact. And we who challenge evolution based on the same lack of evidence as Gould's are counted as fools. How rich.

There is no proof of gods. Proof is something that everyone else can verify for themselves. It is consistent and can be replicated and demonstrated. Not a "feeling". Or a belief. Or interpretating everything that is not understood as being magical.

I cannot account for your blindness or your obstinacy (that is how I would describe it). There is absolute empirical evidence of the supernatural and yet you dismiss it with statements like "we just do not have a natural explanation for it yet." Do you know how intellectual disingenuous that comes across? Observing a plaster statue of the Virgin Mary weeping tears of blood from her eyes and you are here to say there is a natural explanation for it? God is showing you He exists in that very phenomenon and you laugh it off.

What sounds dreadful is choosing to believe in a deity that would require you to spend eternity praising and adoring him while he is simultaneously horrifically torturing your loved ones (who didn't make the cut) every single moment of that eternity with no hope of reprieve or mercy.

You demand far too much of God. That is, you refuse to accept that which he has shown you until he answers all of your more difficult questions like why is there a hell. Well, God says (paraphrase) "I have shown you enough. I have given you eternal life if you should so choose it and show a modicum of gratitude and obedience. But if you choose to live your life as you choose, ignore me, and show contempt to my Word, then I offer you that free will. I do not want to force anyone to love me."

There is absolute empirical evidence of the supernatural and yet you dismiss it with statements like "we just do not have a natural explanation for it yet." Do you know how intellectual disingenuous that comes across? Observing a plaster statue of the Virgin Mary weeping tears of blood from her eyes and you are here to say there is a natural explanation for it? God is showing you He exists in that very phenomenon and you laugh it off.

Unbelievable how blind the religious are to their own hypocrisy.

"I don't believe in scientific fact because one hand picked scientist says something cannot be proven, but everything about religion is true even though none of the supernatural within it can be proven".

"I have shown you enough. I have given you eternal life if you should so choose it and show a modicum of gratitude and obedience. But if you choose to live your life as you choose, ignore me, and show contempt to my Word, then I offer you that free will. I do not want to force anyone to love me."

Without using the bible as your source, tell me of anyone that has returned from the dead and said there is a heaven or hell.

Extortion is use of force. "Worship me, love me, obey me or suffer in hell" is extortion.

You contradict your own statements and are deaf to it.

"we just do not have a natural explanation for it yet."

That is a 100% true, factual statement. "I can't explain it so it proves god is real" is just plain ridiculous.

No explanation is not a valid explanation.

I'll trust in reason and science and logic, thanks.

AO-1414066 says "I'll trust in reason and science... thank you." ----- Well, make up your mind, you can't have both.

Had I said "reason and science" and "faith" there would be a contradiction. No contradiction in provable facts.

Turzovka just demonstrated the deficiency that keeps him from understanding reason and science.

Sure thing, Garth Vader. For science or any advocate like you to try to suggest that DNA molecules formed on their own with no intelligent designer, and then created amoeba like creatures, who eventually became complex fish, who then decided to take a walk on the beach and became reptiles, who then thought they would like to fly and hence started growing feathers and wings, and somewhere in the process these primitive creatures had the "natural selection" will (of course they have no will or desire according to science) to want to grow eyes and ears and livers and spleens and brains, et al., ---- all this without an intelligent designer mind you --- for you or anyone else to dare suggest such a thing is "science" or even possible; that, is an insult to our intelligence. So please do not preach to me about "reason."

Wouldn't an "intelligent designer" have created something akin to the end product pretty early on, rather than leaving behind all the evidence contrary to intelligent design. Wouldn't a omniscient and omnipotent being have had the forethought to know that such evidence was going to point to his non-existence? Wouldn't the almighty have gotten it right on the first try? I know...it's that "free will" get-out-of-jail-free-card that covers any questions you can't/don't want to answer. Or does this fall into the "works in mysterious ways" category?

I guess I do not follow you arguesforsport? What evidence says evolution occurred without an Intelligent Designer??? All the evidence, or logic really, says it absolutely had to have an intelligent designer. --- But to make your day, for me personally, I think evolution is the biggest joke ever played on modern man. The fossil evidence is your doom. There are no transitional fossils and there has to be millions of them amongst the tens of million of fossils found and ID'd --- not the dubious, skeptical hundred some scientists claim are transitionals, which other scientists say they are not. Not only that, billions upon billions of animals around since man has been on this planet, and none of them show signs of being part way between the species they are and some new species. None of them that do not have eyes are showing signs of growing some, no reptiles are sprouting wings, I guess flying isn't their 'bag' any more. No gorilla wants to be more like his advanced cousin, human, any more. Everything so nice and tidy since man can observe for himself.

Turzovka-415848
Let's talk DNA when you compare human DNA to chimp dna there is a 2% difference between the two. That means a chimp shares 98% of its DNA with humans. Athlete's foot has 84% of its DNA can be found on the 23 chromosome. Introns unexpressed used genetic material. Segments of dna has corresponding segment in fish avian etc. When looking at DNA it makes one of the strongest cases for evolution. As for the fossil record just in the hominids alone there are five transitional species. In the rest of nature they are many more. In fact there is one species that is living and thriving. The walking catfish of the south travels from pond to pond by walking. It has gills and lungs. There are many transitional species throughout nature unfortunately your early childhood brainwashing prevents you acknowledging them.

New species of existing animals are found every day. Dinosaurs has feathers at one time. Humans have steadily been getting taller since their development. You can trace the origins of just about any modern animal to it's prehistoric roots (Wooly Mammoth to Elephant, Saber-Toothed cats to modern felines). It's only religious blinders that keep you from seeing the obvious. Adam and Eve just popped into existence out of nowhere...then some joker created all those evil Neanderthal fossils just to dupe man, right?

Radical Idea -- (I posted this in the wrong section of this thread earlier, so here it is again.)

I don't care if it is 99.9999999% the same DNA as a chimp --- the differences are enormous and unattainable. Just because we have abnormal looking animals like walking cat fish or platypuses in no way proves that it is on its way to becoming something else. The millions of transitions required between two distinct species (like from cow to whale) are absolutely necessary and these would not all be done by thus far undiscovered transitional animals. Your leaps of faith without fossil evidence are nearly impossible to swallow. ----- Are you still standing on DNA molecule to primitive life to the development of brains, livers, spleens, et al. to hyper intelligent man all could occur by chance with no intelligent designer, no will, and virtually no errors? That's what you believe. And then you tell me about my faith or lack of reason.

The oldest rock found on earth dated to about 3.6 billion years I believe it was found in Canada.
Off course because of plate tectonics the Earth could be much older. In 3 and
half billion years that is a lot of time for evolution to occur. I believe that
life on earth occurred because it was a fertile test tube. The mitochondrion in
your body which provides energy is actually in its self a foreign cell in your
body. The DNA is supplied by the mother the father's DNA does not appear. Interesting.
Man did not develop from monkeys but man and monkeys share a common ancestor.
Man developed from hominids. This is a chain that developed differently from
the apes. If you take human DNA you can find chains of genes that are present
in almost any animal. Evolution is a fact. One of the tests the do on meteorites
is for organic molecules. One that I had the pleasure of seeing contained over
21 amino acids. Amino acids are the building blocks of life. It does not take a
rocket scientist to extend this particular scientific fact to the conclusion
that the water of primordial earth could have been seeded by meteorites and
comets. Amino acids have an affinity for each other. They like to combine and
make new amino acids. There are eight amino acids that are needed to form life
in an amoeba and a human. Let's give the amino acids one billion years to
produce the proteins that constitute life. That 2.6 billon for that one celled organism
to evolve into man. Not a hard thing to do. When you compare a human to a flat
worm there is very little difference. The flat worm has a head, heart,
digestive tract and even an anus. The only difference is that we are bigger and
more refined. In 2.6 billion years I can see that evolution has come up with a
product such as the human. I am sorry I do not need the apologetic answer to
creation. If it were intelligent design why did the designer not do a better
job? I reject the notion of a fairy in the sky directing my life. I resent that
you are so prejudice against nature that you have to have a magical being do
the job of evolution. I was raised a catholic. I put that brain washing away.
On august 16 I had a heart attack and they placed a stint in one of my coronary
arties. God did not heal me nurses and doctors did. I have macular degeneration
and am blind. There is not a cure for this and if I woke up and was sighted
again I would want to know why. I would not say it was a miracle. I am
considering joining a study for spinal cord stimulation to relive pain from a
failed back surgery and if I receive pain relief from the procedure it will not
be a miracle it will be because of doctors nurses and technology. This child
needs to be studied and find out why he is alive instead of attributing it to
god. His body could produce some kind of enzyme, protein, or antibody that may
have saved his life. Attributing it god closes the door to this. The three laws
of Arthur Clarke comes to mind especially the third one.

Clarkes
three "laws" of prediction formulated by the British writer and
scientist Arthur C. Clarke. They are:

1. When a distinguished but elderly scientist
states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states
that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.

2. The only way of discovering the limits of
the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.

3. Any sufficiently advanced technology is
indistinguishable from magic.

As an old Emergency Room nurse (26 years) sometimes doctors and nurses venture into the
impossible with very good results and sometimes with negative ones . This is
what happened with this boy. The doctors and nurses engaged in law two and as a
result fulfilled law three.

The oldest rock found on earth dated to about 3.6 billion years I believe it was found in Canada. Of course because of plate tectonics the Earth could be much older. In 3 and half billion years that is a lot of time for evolution to occur.

The Laws of Probability. The average protein contains 400 amino acids of 20 different kinds arranged in precise sequence. Even 100 amino acids of 20 different kinds can be arranged in 20100 (10130) different ways. There are only 1080 particles in the entire Universe. If 100 amino acids were arranged randomly a trillion times per second for five billion years, the probability of them being arranged just once in a predetermined order is essentially nil. In order to have even the slightest possibility an evolutionary origin of life in an ocean containing 355 million cubic miles of water would require many billions of tons each of hundreds of different protein molecules and hundreds of different DNA and RNA molecules. Before the existence of life there could be no reproduction and thus no natural selection. All of this must occur by pure chance. A naturalistic, mechanistic evolutionary origin of life would be impossible.

For me, and my limited amount of knowledge, I do not believe life could ever create itself on its own, by chance, if it were given a quintillion number of years.

If it were intelligent design why did the designer not do a better job?

Seriously? That's a defense?

I reject the notion of a fairy in the sky directing my life. I resent that
you are so prejudice against nature that you have to have a magical being do
the job of evolution. I was raised a catholic. I put that brain washing away.

I am not prejudiced, I just have had the truth revealed to me that is so clear, and evident, and filled with reason. Catholicism, by the way, is a glorious discovery.

On august 16 I had a heart attack and they placed a stint in one of my coronary
arties. God did not heal me nurses and doctors did. I have macular degeneration
and am blind. There is not a cure for this and if I woke up and was sighted
again I would want to know why. I would not say it was a miracle.

I am sorry for your condition. But if it were not for God, you would cease to exist. Life is a miracle. Why do you reject documented miracles? Why do you reject every eye witness to the miraculous? Why must I suffer explanations of "mass hallucination" or "they are all liars?" Why is this only applied when it opposes your beliefs?

Clarkes three "laws" of prediction formulated by the British writer and
scientist Arthur C. Clarke. They are:

1. When a distinguished but elderly scientist
states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states
that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.

This is far too encompassing and vague. To hang your hat on that "evidence" as to accept or not accept a profound observation is bizarre to me.

3. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Your advanced technology has an explanation to go with it. A weeping statue of Mary does not.

I am not questioning your sincerity or good intentions. I am merely not backing down from the most important questions of life, the least important of the three being "How did we get here?" The most important are "Why are we here?" and "What happens when we die?"

FYI, that first paragraph on amino acids and DNA is a quote from some scientist in an anti-evolution web site. It was not my words, but I guess, like you say, they do not allow links in this web site.

I post links all the time. Here's one: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/

All of the weeping painting and statues except one (in Japan) has been labeled as hoaxs by the catholic church. Google it my friend and on extensive research I found that after the chruch certified the one in japan as a miricale a major earth quake occured in the area and a appartus was found in the interior of the statue that made it weep. So much for crying miracles.

Using intelligent design the primary proof is that the system of life is so complex that some had
to direct it. If this is the case then the designer who created life is even
more complex than us also would have to have a creator. So who created god?

There are only 1080 particles in the entire Universe

What are you talking about?

I have a friend who is a Ph.D. in applied mathematics. As a project he statistically compared the murder rate of the USSR and ice cream cones in New York City and a causal link I forget the exact term. Statically for every ice cream cone sold in New York City someone was murder in the USSR. An interesting statistical correlation but what does on have to do with the other. Statistics are a way of looking at related data and are terrible at predicting future events.

I wish to correct myself. The oldest rock found on earth is dated at 4.28 billion years. Let's give amino acids one billion years to come up with the eight required for life. That gives 3.28 billion years for a human to evolve.

How did we get here?
We evolved

Why are we here?
To fill our biological niche.

What happens when you die.
We cease to exist and rot.

Anything else or any other answers to these questions is wishful thinking.
Why do we need an afterlife? I am content to rot. I will be remembered in the minds of my children grandchildren and if I am lucky enough my great grandchildren. I will be remembered by friends, and by the people I encountered in my career. I will be remembered by the lives I saved. This is the eternity I want. I do not want to spend eternity singing the praises of a vengeful pr**k of a god.

All of the weeping painting and statues except one (in Japan) has been labeled as hoaxs by the catholic church. Google it my friend and on extensive research I found that after the chruch certified the one in japan as a miricale a major earth quake occured in the area and a appartus was found in the interior of the statue that made it weep. So much for crying miracles.

That whole paragraph is a bold faced lie and utter nonsense. The Catholic Church does not rule on these statues, period. The bishop of Akita Japan gave his "ruling" of that statue being of supernatural origins, but that is as far as it will go. Rome will make no such formal pronouncement. All the other statues and paintings that have been seen by many witnesses to weep human tears or blood or holy oil --- I doubt any of them have ever been given a formal investigation by the Vatican, much less ruled upon. Do you have any idea how many there are alleged to have occurred in the last 50 years? By the way, there are TV documentations on the Akita statue and it was examined by independent medical or scientific experts. He explains on the video how they CT scanned it and it was solid wood, etc. He also says our conclusion is "no natural explanation for said phenomenon."

Using intelligent design the primary proof is that the system of life is so complex that some had to direct it. If this is the case then the designer who created life is even more complex than us also would have to have a creator. So who created god?

It seems apparent that God does not wish to give man an answer to everything his little mind demands. He said as much to Job, if you recall? The fact we cannot account for where God came from in no way discounts the other issues at hand. As far as I am concerned, God has proven himself to the human race a thousand times over, so whether I can tell the skeptic who designed God or not is immaterial to the question Does God Exist?

There are only 1080 particles in the entire Universe? What are you talking about?

That is 10 to the 80th power. The font did not allow proper display. The other figures in that quote should read 20 to the 100th power, and, 10 to the 130th power.

I agree that statistics can be easily manipulated to imply something that has no bearing on the truth. However, in the case I cited, it was merely an explanation of what the odds were that molecules or amino acides could form in the necessary precise order or configuration if this were done randomly, or by chance. The possible combinations are virtually infinite, and you have only one that works. Not likely unless you have a superior intelligence guiding it.

How did we get here?
We evolved

Anything else or any other answers to these questions is wishful thinking.

Radical, I could produce countless examples of documented expositions of the supernatural and empirical evidence that you cannot wish away yourself. God not only makes sense, it is the only explanation that makes any sense.

Why do we need an afterlife? I am content to rot. I will be remembered in the minds of my children grandchildren and if I am lucky enough my great grandchildren. I will be remembered by friends, and by the people I encountered in my career. I will be remembered by the lives I saved. This is the eternity I want. I do not want to spend eternity singing the praises of a vengeful pr**k of a god.

The gospel according to The Radical One. You really have zero idea what heaven will be like, but I can assure you it is infintely more glorious and blissful than what man can imagine. God is treated so shabbily by His creation, it's endless. The Virgin Mary told one visionary what hurts God the most is man's shameless immorality and foul ingratitude. She told another visionary from Ecuador "most only come to know God on bended knees." That explains a lot to people like me who think it should be so obvious to people like you.

I hope you have a peaceful life.

Turzovka-415848

Sir I rarely seed my research because I dislike handing information on a silver platter but I will provide you a link to the information on weeping statues http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weeping_statue. This verifies my claim as to the statues that weep being hoaxs. I will give you the opportunity to research the statue in Japan. I detest religious zealots and lazy intellects. Do some research my friend and quite accepting tales and fiction.

Turzovka-415848

The gospel according to The Radical One. You really have zero idea what heaven will be like, but I can assure you it is infintely more glorious and blissful than what man can imagine. God is treated so shabbily by His creation, it's endless. The Virgin Mary told one visionary what hurts God the most is man's shameless immorality and foul ingratitude. She told another visionary from Ecuador "most only come to know God on bended knees." That explains a lot to people like me who think it should be so obvious to people like you.

I wished to respond to this separately to the above post. Sir the gospel of Radicial (not
Radical) would be of more value than the four that are attributed to authors
who could not have written them. I would place logic, reason, consideration, and
compassion above fear, threats, and judgment. If god were a person he would be in
jail or served a order of protection for his threats alone and those who think
that jesus did not sin ask the money changers if he sinned. I am an atheist and
I am also an anti-theist. The delusional behavior and neurotic behavior of christians
has caused much intimidation, bloodshed, and misery than any other source except
maybe famine and disease. I believe that christ insanity is a cancer that any
and all rational people should excise.

Sir I rarely seed my research because I dislike handing information on a silver platter but I will provide you a link to the information on weeping statues This verifies my claim as to the statues that weep being hoaxs. I will give you the opportunity to research the statue in Japan. I detest religious zealots and lazy intellects.

Paraphrasing Scripture: "that which you accuse others of will be the standard upon which thou shall be judged." So I caution you as to how you may apply the term "lazy intellect." After all, Jesus said the reason most people reject God is due to "a sluggish heart."

No, my friend, I am not moved one atom's length by your certitude of no evidence for God. There are innumerable empirical examples of supernatural manifestations that neither you nor your skeptic journals have any answer for. I have read more than perhaps anyone you have come in contact with. For me, I have no need of faith to believe in God, it is evident and proven via manifestations alone.

Your wiki reference for weeping statues is hardly "information on a silver platter," it is the work of "lazy intellects." Here is your own list to embark upon. [ this web site program will not allow me to post a link but it can be found under visionsofjesuschrist --- dot com]
We all agree there are hoaxes by blind zealots, but I ask you, what better way for satan to discount the authentic than to have hoaxes of the same variety? Surely the skeptic will rally around the fakes to imply they are all fakes. It works time and again in religious debates. What better way to make the skeptic think all preachers are hucksters than to parade those money seeking celebrity preachers who turn out to be frauds?

As to your second post accusing God of being cruel to his creation, well that tells me you are greatly advanced to a point where redemption can only be a miracle at this point.

Pray for that miracle is my advice. Because eternity is a very long time.

And my words will likely have little effect at this point. I hold no grudges towards you or yours --- I would be willing to forgive any of your transgressions, I pray God may as well.

Turzovka-415848

As for your miracles and supernatural pheromone The Amazing Randy a magician and famous skeptic offers a one million dollar prize for anyone who can give him a genuine supernatural happening. Here is his link: http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html
He has offered this since the seventies and no one has collected the said prize. He came close to paying it to a psychic but he was able to debunk her powers. Sir if you do have these phenomena please forward them to him and if it is proven as supernatural I expect a 10,000 dollar finding fee.