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Subscribe to RSSEight members of the US military are being charged in connection with the death of Private Danny Chen. Investigators reportedly uncovered evidence that Chen was the target of ethnic slurs and hazing before he was shot in Afghanistan. NBC's Jim Miklaszewski reports.
Updated at 2:00 p.m. ET
Eight U.S. soldiers have been charged in the death of 19-year-old Private Danny Chen, who was found shot to death in a guard tower in southern Afghanistan.
It was first thought to have been a suicide, but the military's investigation found that the Asian-American had been the target of ethnic slurs and physical attacks by his fellow soldiers.
Chen was found dead Oct. 3 with a gunshot wound below the chin; it's not clear from the charges whether the eight soldiers are accused of killing him or whether officials are alleging that their mistreatment of Chen led him to take his own life.
The military said the soldiers from Chen's company face charges that include dereliction of duty, assault, negligent homicide and involuntary manslaughter.
Read more coverage on NBCNewYork.com
Chen's parents welcomed the charges Wednesday during an emotional news conference at the Chinese Consolidated Benevolent Association in New York's Chinatown, where their only child grew up and went to school.
"Over two months of agonizing over the loss, it is of some comfort and relief to learn that the Army is taking this seriously," Chen's mother, Su Zhen, 49, said through tears in Chinese as a family friend translated. "(We) hope that the truth will come out and hopefully that what happened will not happen again."
Zhen, who came to the United States in 1987 from Taishan in southern China, said she had not wanted her only child -- a good student who had a lot of friends -- to join the Army. She said she "could not figure out why they (the soldiers) would do this to him."
Spencer Platt/Getty Images
A portrait of Army Pvt. Danny Chen is placed on a car in his funeral procession in Chinatown on Oct. 13 in New York City.
Chen's father, Yantao Chen, 49, a cook who moved to America from the same province in 1989, said through the family friend that while well wishing "gives them comfort … he realizes that Danny will never return, but it gives him hope."
The translating friend was Frank Gee, 72, an Army veteran, who said the family heard about the charges Tuesday from a lieutenant colonel in Afghanistan. He said they were expecting them, though Zhen cried when she heard the news.
"It's rather tough. ... The only child, especially (in a) Chinese family, a boy," Gee said. "They are learning to cope with it."
Chen was like "sunshine," said his aunt, Lucy Chen. "Danny (was) a very good boy ... We miss him."
Elizabeth OuYang, New York branch president of OCA, a national civil rights organization serving Asian Pacific Americans, said Chen was not depressed but had suffered emotional and physical abuse in the military: He was dragged from his bed and made to crawl while rocks were thrown at his back and was forced to hold liquid in his mouth while doing chin-ups during his two months in Afghanistan. He was deployed there in August and had been in the military just seven months.
"Whether suicide or homicide, those responsible for mistreating Danny caused his death, and they must be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law," OuYang said at the news conference, noting that forensic expert Henry Lee would conduct an independent autopsy.
Army says Danny Chen was bullied before his death. WNBC's Katy Tur reports.
She said she and community leaders had a meeting last week at the Pentagon to put forward reforms to prevent such abuse and that they have another one on Jan. 4, where the commanding officer's report would be shared with them. She said they were told that a separate report by the Army's Criminal Investigation Command would be finished by the end of February.
"Clearly the Army’s diversity training is not effective," she said. "It's not worth it (to serve) if we can't be protected from people who are supposed to be on our side."
Though the news of the charges was "amazing," she said it was only the beginning and that they did not want the soldiers to be able to plead to lesser charges, noting they wanted "a loud signal sent that our lives are not cheap."
Some 3,000 Asian Americans were recruited to serve in the U.S. military in 2009, OuYang wrote in October.
Rep. Nydia M. Velazquez, D-N.Y., called the day "bittersweet" and demanded a "clear accounting of the facts." She said minorities make up 35 percent of active duty forces.
"We need to know the whole truth," Velazquez said. "If there is a message to everyone in this country, especially to the armed forces, it's that racial intolerance and discrimination have no place in our military and we need to have that message clearly conveyed today."
Wellington Chen, executive director of Chinatown Partnership Local Development Corporation, cited a Chinese expression in saying the community could handle the truth and didn't want it to come out in bits and pieces: "If you have a fire, you cannot cover it with paper. The truth will come out."
Military's charges
According to an official statement from the military, 1st Lt. Daniel J. Schwartz, Staff Sgt. Blaine G. Dugas, Staff Sgt. Andrew J. Van Bockel, Sgt. Adam M. Holcomb, Sgt. Jeffrey T. Hurst, Spc. Thomas P. Curtis, Spc. Ryan J. Offutt and Sgt. Travis F. Carden, all of C Co., 3rd Battalion, 21st Infantry Regiment, 1st Stryker Brigade Combat Team, 25th Infantry Division were charged Wednesday in connection withthe death of Chen, an infantryman assigned to C Co. at Combat Outpost Palace.
According to the statement:
- Schwartz is charged with eight specifications of Article 92, UCMJ, dereliction of duty.
- Dugas is charged with one specification of Article 92, UCMJ, violation of a lawful general regulation, four specifications of Article 92, UCMJ, dereliction of duty, and one specification of Article 107, UCMJ, making a false official statement.
- VanBockel is charged with two specifications of Article 92, UCMJ, violation of a lawful general regulation, three specifications of Article 92, UCMJ, dereliction of duty, four specifications of Article 93, UCMJ, maltreatment, one specification of Article 119, UCMJ, involuntary manslaughter, one specification of Article 128, UCMJ, assault consummated by battery, one specification of Article 134, UCMJ, negligent homicide, and one specification of Article 134, UCMJ, reckless endangerment.
- Holcomb is charged with four specifications of Article 92, UCMJ, violation of a lawful general regulation, two specifications of Article 92, UCMJ, dereliction of duty, two specifications of Article 93,UCMJ, maltreatment, one specification of Article 108, UCMJ, destruction of military property, one specification of Article 119, UCMJ, involuntary manslaughter, two specifications of Article 128, UCMJ, assault consummated by battery, one specification of Article 134, UCMJ, negligent homicide, one specification of Article 134, UCMJ, reckless endangerment, and one specification of Article 134, UCMJ, communicating a threat.
- Hurst is charged with two specifications of Article 92, UCMJ, violation of a lawful general regulation, two specifications of Article 92, UCMJ, dereliction of duty, two specifications of Article 93, UCMJ, maltreatment, one specification of Article 119, UCMJ, involuntary manslaughter, one specification of Article 128, UCMJ, assault consummated by battery, one specification of Article 134, UCMJ, negligent homicide, and one specification of Article 134, UCMJ, reckless endangerment.
- Curtis is charged with two specifications of Article 92, UCMJ, violation of a lawful general regulation, one specification of Article 92, UCMJ, dereliction of duty, six specifications of Article 93, UCMJ, maltreatment, one specification of Article 119, involuntary manslaughter, four specifications of Article 128, UCMJ, assault consummated by battery, one specification of Article 134, UCMJ, negligent homicide, and one specification of Article 134, UCMJ, reckless endangerment.
- Offutt is charged with two specifications of Article 92, UCMJ, violation of a lawful general regulation, one specification of Art 92, UCMJ, dereliction of duty, four specifications of Article 93, UCMJ, maltreatment, one specification of Article 119, UCMJ, involuntary manslaughter, three specifications of Article 128, UCMJ, assault consummated by battery, one specification of Article 134, UCMJ, negligent homicide, and one specification of Article 134, UCMJ, reckless endangerment.
- Carden is charged with two specifications of Article 92, UCMJ, violation of a lawful general regulation, two specifications of Article 93, UCMJ, maltreatment, and one specification of Article 128, UCMJ, assault.
The soldiers are still in Afghanistan but have been assigned to a different base, removed from their duty positions and placed under closer supervision, the military said.
An Army criminal investigation into the circumstances of Chen's death remains open, a spokesman for the U.S. Army's Criminal Investigation Command told Reuters.
"Aside from investigating the actual cause and manner of Private Chen's death, we are also investigating the circumstances leading up to his death," U.S.-based spokesman Chris Grey said in an email.
Pattern of abuse
Last week, hundreds of supporters held a vigil and demanded answers in Chen's death. A group of community leaders at the vigil said it had a meeting at the Pentagon recently about the treatment of Asian soldiers in the military, and wanted the commanding officers to be punished.
At the vigil last Thursday, the soldier's family ramped up pressure on investigators, reading aloud letters Chen had sent home, reflecting the state of isolation he was in from being harassed by his comrades and superiors.
"'Feb. 27, 2011: Since I am the only Chinese person here, everyone knows me by Chen,'" read his cousin Banny Chen. "'They ask if I'm from China a few times a day... They also call out my name Chen in a goat-like voice sometimes for no reason.'"
"'People crack jokes about Chinese people all the time. I'm running out of jokes to come back at them.'"
Chen's death is one of several recent cases of alleged hazing in the military, according to OCA.
One of those was Lance Cpl. Harry Lew, who was hazed by fellow Marines, according to a U.S. military report on his April 3 death. The military accused three Marines of beating Lew hours before he killed himself and charged them with hazing. They face court martial, The San Jose Mercury News reported.
"We clearly see this as a pattern, it doesn't take a genius to figure it out," Wellington Chen said. "To turn a human being into a killing machine, you need to condition them and sometimes once you unleash it, you may not be able to control it, that's the unfortunate part."
Lawyer Mathew B. Tully, an expert in military law and a former Army soldier, wrote in an article earlier this year that the "military’s zero-tolerance position on hazing has not completely eradicated the practice" of hazing.
"While some instances of hazing are as easy to identify as the marks they leave on victims, verbal or psychological offenses are not as black and white," he wrote. "For example, in 2007 three Marines based in Yorktown, Va., were charged with hazing subordinates after making them stand in formation for five hours and perform cleaning duties to the point of exhaustion, without food or sleep."
NBC New York and NBC News contributed to this report.
Leave a Comment:
If found guilty may they rot together but we should not expect that-the Army will protect them as they have done other murders/rapists/baby killers
Despite the rants of the right, we are no where near fighting our country's prejudices. Just as ALL of our non-military citizens carry deep-rooted prejudices and hate, not ALL of our military is reflected here. But it's still alive and well and runs deep. We must fight it in everything we do. We should feel sick about Private Chen. We should look into the eyes and souls of the "kids" that did this and see if we can see traces of ourselves.
Care to substantiate that, or would you prefer to continue to talk out of your a$$?
Similar to "A Few Good Men" who gave the code red ? but they should all be charged and sent to prison with the man in charge..
Are you by any chance John Murtha's bastard child. The last time I recall someone jumping to a conclusion regarding the guilt or innocence of the military was that corrupt lying POS Murtha regarding Haditha. And he was proven completely wrong. While the adage of "innocent until proven guilty" applies only within a court of law, it takes an especially low-crawling piece of slimy slug excrement to indict and convict our military without any facts or knowledge. If any of these soldiers are guilty, so be it. But meanwhile, until their guilt is proven beyond the American standard of 'beyond a reasonable doubt', you can stfu thank you very much.
What the hell is wrong with people. Don't these soldiers have enough to do with their time than harrass someone? Shame on them. I am totally disgusted.
SteveO-3228819
Where do you live, Steve, under a rock? I assume you were questioning my statement that prejudices still exist and still run deep?
Substantiate it? You opened your email lately? You visited the South lately? Been to any Tea Party events? Do a few Google searches... pick a minority, any minority. For that matter, look up white hate, because it runs in all directions.
I really hope the morons weren't allowed to breed prior to what happened. If they did, then their off spring need to be uthanized or at the very least sterilized so they can't reproduce and bring another batch of Neanderthals into being.
Chen's death is one of several recent cases of alleged hazing in the military
BS! This isn't hazing, this is a situation where 8 dousche bags don't deserve to wear the uniform
Mark - Save the ignorant statements regarding the south. I saw more racism in the midwest than I ever did in the south
LMarc- My complements for proving your statement about prejudices and hate in the US. Immediately brand the South and Tea Party as prejudice. Care to mention the racism of North-East liberals or the Occu-punks? When you are looking for the reflections of hate and prejudice in the eys of your children, do you see yourself reflected?
trust me, "you can't handle the truth".
odb2... You are wrong. The military court will let the evidence speak for itself. I assume you have never been in the service. For this to go to courts martial, takes it out of the hands of the command and put it into that of JAG. JAG does not care who these soldier's buddies were and why they did it. In would also point out to you, that these soldiers commanders had to refer the charges to JAG. Unlike in the TV, we do not do investigations. The command had to call in CID (Criminal Investigation Division) and then refer the charges. If they are found guilty by a jury of other soldiers, their sentencing will be handed down by a military judge. They can appeal the sentence back to their command who may choose to take their service records or other mitigating facts in to account. The evidence must have been pretty bad for this not to have been handled by non-judicial action, especially for the Lt. His dereliction must have been really bad. He turned a blind eye to something that was egregious for this charge to be leveled at him.
What's this about the South? Have you been to BFE, Montana or NYC? Racism is alive, well and breeding across the Northeast, Mid-West and far West. Iowa, ffs, is the most racist, sh1t-hole in the nation!
Justice is a slippery concept, the press always seems to to looking out to protect minorities but crime is crime and no one should be above the law. I pray that Private Chen and his family receive some sort of justice;however that is my prayer for the victims and families of Major Hasan and his supposed "workplace violence". As we can see, evil knows no color, religion, ethnicity, sexual origin or rank. Good is good and evil is evil.
Mr. Thanatos...And all it took to resurrect the closet racists was one bi-racial president. The thing I find most amusing about bigots is how they think they and only they are soooo superior. Meanwhile, they can't pass an SAT test on their best day of the week.
White trash always has to have someone they think is lower than their own lowly self-imposed position in life. Bigots exist everywhere in life and it's not limited solely to race either. There are gender bigots and age bigots.
The only difference is that today, they feel more empowered to spew their garbage ideology on the rest of the world. As if educated people buy their brand of BS.
Getting harassed is no excuse for shooting yourself in the head. Were the members of his platoon guilty of harassing him? Probably, but as an infantryman myself, I know that verbal bantering, bravado, and harassment are part of the game. Going racial or ethnic is always wrong though.
I wouldn't expand on the white hate too much.... the Chinese hate the Mongols as much as KKK boys do blacks. Vietnamese hate the Hmong natives in their country. Japanese have treated Chinese and other SE Asians as animals in the past. There are native American and Canadian tribes that hate other tribes. It's human nature. Read your history and don't expect people too change too much.
Todd...Doesn't compute. The degree of bantering, bravado and harassment that forces a soldier to suicide isn't "part of the game". Soldiering isn't a "game". It's a deadly serious business that requires every soldier to watch the back of his fellow soldiers. Is that what this bunch of little boys were doing?
BOB 304573...Great comment!!!
1st LT Schwartz will most likely get a slap on the wrist , demotion in rank and an undesirabledischarge . The rest will do jail time in a federal pen and get a dishonorable discharge upon completion of their sentence . There is no parole under the UCMJ .
In the unit I served with in NAM we had people from all walks of life . NEVER had those kind of problems. What we are looking at is the lowest form of life on earth . They deserve more punishment than they will get .
My thoughts , prayers , and heart felt sorrow go out to the young mans family. I shall forever miss my little brother !!
bob
Ewent- your post proves racists are everywhere, good luck with your hate.......
nycguy...Redefining racism, are you? Don't bother. I'm so fed up with bully men these days. Being fed up with uncivilized behavior isn't racism. Yes...I hate racists. Don't you? And if not, why not?
Quite frankly, as an educated woman, I am unimpressed with the pumped fists and bull heads that pass for men these days. What they lack in civility, they make up for in childish behavior as is proven by their utter lack of tolerance for people who don't meet their expectations of grandeur.
Ewent - Way to go. You prove that even the most "enlightened" can be the biggest hard core racists around. Immediately jump to the race of the President, then bring up "white trash", what an open minded person you are. Why not call all who disagree with your (seemingly) narrow views racists, homophobes, misogynists, and what ever other foolish stereotype you can come up with?
LMarcT
While I agree this issue is nothing less than tragic if the young man was in fact murdered, I must take issue with you using the collective "we" in your comment inferring that "we" are connected with taking his young man's life. If he was murdered put the guilt where it belongs, on the murderer/murderer's not on everyone else. It all boils down to personal responsibility!
I find it interesting that you did not say "I must fight, "I should feel sick", "I should look into the eyes and souls of the kids that did this and see if I can see traces of myself. This is not a personal attack on you but just a note on prejudice and personal responsibility.
Only I am responsible for my actions not "we".
You are correct about all being prejudice but not responsible, prejudice is not a bad thing in itself but rather how it is used. As noted in your comment about the "right" you are prejudice in your political views accusing all in a particular camp of guilt by association, you are no different than the folks you condemn. I can be prejudice against ham preferring beef to no avail, the true problem lies in not loving our neighbor as we should. I'ts just the nature of man, red, yellow, black, white, in respect of self we're all the same; it's all about me!
I raise chickens and like people it is the nature of the flock to pick on something or someone sometimes each other untill death occurs, and what do they learn from this behavior--- it's time to find another victim! The same hatred was alive and well in prejudice against Japanese- Americans in WWII some of whom were the best soldiers to take the field of action, their success and loyalty was based on personal conviction and not on collective opinions.
I sympathise with your concerns (yes it makes me sick to think this story could be reality, I hope it's not) regardless I am saddened by the death of this young man and the hurt his family must be feeling especially considering that his death may have come at the hands of his fellow soldiers; SHAME!
We live in perilous times!
I am shocked that these soldiers deliberately killed one of their own. It's really sad for the soldier, his family and all of us. Might have been a threat or intimidation that went too far and the gun went off accidentally. Out of those 8 soldiers, no one stepped up to help this kid while on duty? Shameful,really.
Truly a sad and unnecessary death. I have felt so proud of those that have served us, it is
hard to believe the military was unaware.
The way the US military acts towards people in other countries, is it any wonder these scum in a uniform did what they did? They should be put in the electric chair and fried. Unfortunately, we all know they will just be put in jail for a couple of years and then booted out of the military to carry on with their pathetic lives. Why anyone of color joins the military is beyond me, they must be masochists to want to put up with this sort of crap.
The immediate chain of command failed this soldier. They must of slept through the ETHOS and VALUES training or are these just words to make everyone feel good?
As a retired NCO - these eight "soldiers" failed in their primary mission - take care of your fellow soldiers....
Tacky, trashy, white supremacist behavior. You can always rely on it.
Mr Thanatos:
Iowa most racist?
Obama won the Iowa caucuses in 2008
Ewent.....I'm not redefining racism, I'm just pointing out that you are a prime example of one....keep jumping to ridiculous conclusions.....it suits you.....
ewent, you think educated people can't be racist, most of your comments are quite humorous,but this has got to be the most idiotic I've read.
I served in Beirut and helped evacuate the U.S Embassy after the bombing in Oct. 1983. When I was in there was bantering and bravado. but that is not harassment. When there was harassment there was an equal amount of support. And senior officers were close enough to watch and see when things were out of hand. Actually once I was harassed for a speech impediment ( a slur in my voice.) My chief took me and this individual aside and offered my several choices at my discretion which included writing him up or allowing us the room privately, no questions asked later. My choice was drop it, And tell the person harassing me he is an idiot and my team mates agreed. I'm sure that when Chen told superiors; they took Todd s point of view. Just because a boy caries a gun it doesn't make him a man and the superiors assumed the result of the end result when they did nothing. Also I got over the speech problem and the harasser be a decent guy to.
Bob...You responded to the post. Got something in the closet you're hiding? From 1960's to 2008, racism was not the public display it is today. Men didn't publicly make remarks they knew were racist. So..who's the racist now?
Since I'm white, I think I know white trash when I see it. It's not a race of people. It's inbred stupidity. Educated people know that tolerance is essential to national unity. Only the divisive racists rely heavily on bigotry to divide and conquer. Sorry, I absolutely, totally, wholly and implicitly detest male supremacy when it has no valid foundation. And racism is about as much proof of a low mentality as it needs to get.
The high and mighty male supremacists these days are all mouth and not much brain power.
Just maybe the time has come for the military to not just take any Tom Dick or Joan anymore. In consideration that too many children are growing up angry and prejudiced these days Most likely because their early role model portrayed angry and prejudiced beliefs----the time has come to coerce potential soldier to take Psych Tests to determine just how angry and prejudiced potential soldiers are!
If the results indicate massive anger and prejudice then indviduals should be placed with minority leaders/trainers and offered an extra course in Anger management, morals and values!
NO US SOLIDER SHOULD PURPOSEDLY AND INTENDEDLY KILL ANOTHER RATHER THEY SHOULD PROTECT ALL COMRADES EVEN THOSE THEY MAY NOT LIKE AS THAT IS THIER DUTY---prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law including military law! THEY FAILED IN THIER MISSION TO PROTECT!
BillH, the only crying and lying I see is the person who fed you your line of BS on Murtha. Looks like he is more of an American than anybody who believes what you were told/read about him.
Good luck with that non-truth. Oh, and the Moon is made of cheese - might want to pick that one up too while we are talking fairy tales.
Todd, I was a grunt for about 21 years. Allowing ANY harassment is not just immoral, it is against the USMJ. Some people want to be the best soldiers they can be, but when constantly harassed, they start to feel VERY depressed and either kill themselves or the POS that is giving them the trouble.
I was in Iraq as a civilian when some jackass Sergeants thought it was funny to "drop" troops for push ups every chance they got. A young troop did not feel the love and given all the other stresses he was under...away from loved ones in a war zone...he killed himself.
I have to say that the modern Army has been left leaderless. Many Senior NCOs that I have met were WORTHLESS welfare bums that only got promoted because they never stood up for anyone or for anything and therefore never made waves. Same for many officers. The ones that show leadership and care about their troops get "not the best" report cards, passed over and fired. Remember General Shinseki? His time to shine was when he told congress that we should not invade Iraq with less than 550,000 troops. He was fired and instead of fighting for what he believed in, he took the sweet job of running the Veterans Affairs. What a POS!
I can tell you and every other active duty soldier that some dipsh!t wants to drop you for pushups ask them if they are getting down with you. If the are using pushup as a form of punishment, refuse to do it. Tell them that you are willing to go to a courts martial because you are refusing to follow an unlawful order. Physical punishment is against the UCMJ. If you did something wrong, they can correct you and retrain you, but ONLY an officer can administer punishment AND that has to be done through the UCMJ.
My God, people wake the hell up and do your duty. Take care of your troops and knock off the BS! Lead, don't bully.
I say if these dipsticks abused this troop, PUT THEM UNDER THE JAIL! And take the Chain of Command with them.
Ewent, you use a racial slur "white trash" while jabbering on about racists? You may be educated but you sure as hell are not intelligent. Poor Whites probably suffer the most from racism and dish out the least amount in this country. In addition, you should educate yourself about where most of the racism comes from in this country. Google Blacks/Asians Philadelphia, where Black kids brutalize Asians so they can't attend school or Latino/Blacks Los Angeles, where Latinos are killing Blacks in an effort to ethnically cleanse them from neighborhoods, and then look up White liberal, who always having to feel superior to someone constantly bashes the less well off of their own kind. I suspect you fall into the last catagory. However, as an educated and intelligent man, I say, you need not feel superior to anyone, whatever education you may have obtained, you are a stupid as a box of rocks. Ignorance can be fixed, stupidity can't. So for you, there is no hope. Crawl under a rock!
This story of Danny Chen's death is equally disturbing and disheartening. Prayers going up for he and his family at the loss of not only their son, but to one this nation's courageous warriors who died in service to this country.
Hatred in any shape or form and one that results in the death of another innocent is the stuff that tears at the heart, mind and soul. My condolences to his family and those dear to this young man. Rest in peace.
Paul grow up. The "US Military" doesnt act any different than "Black People". Some individuals in the military act like diks, just like some black people, white people, asian people, etc act like diks.
Why should any person of color join the service? Well for starters, because this is your country just as much as it is mine, and if you don't appreciate the freedom to come on this site and rant your BS or even CHOOSE NOT to join the services (which civilians don't have that freedom in other places of the world), then I'm glad that I can be part of the population that DOES realize what you have because of our armed forces.
odb2..............go crawl back under your Vietnam era rock. Its sickens me that military personnel are sacrificing their lives so you can spew your BS.
Are these young soldiers given psych evaluations I doubt it, but they have to be pretty stupid to sign up to fight war in the first place off course the Army needs the stupidity because smart people will not walk into a suicide mission
@ L Marc T
-Despite the rants of the right, we are no where near fighting our country's prejudices
Assuming that all Americans who are right leaning think that prejudice is gone is a prejudice.
The world isnt as black and white as your simple mind may want. Pun intended.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As a 15 year professional soldier I can honestly say I hope the men who did this are brought swiftly and harshly to punishment.
Did those of you already convicting those charged, without a trial no less, actually read the article? Perhaps there is much more harrassment than indicated, but what is repeated in this article is very slim. Someone, an obvious candidate for MENSA, commented above this was the behavior of white supremacists, without a doubt too. Yet for the life of me I can't find a single comment about anyone's race in this article except for Chen and those advocating on his behalf.
I don't know what happened in Afghanistan among these soldiers. I don't know if there was excessive harrassment or not, or if one or more of the eight charged committed the killing. From this article all I know is that a soldier is dead and eight others are charged with various crimes. There isn't a single word of supporting evidence for the charges. We don't know what happened. How about we let the process play itsself out?
One more thing...why does anyone reply back to ewent anymore? She has never had a balanced thought she's reduced to writing for us to read.
ewent - The only thing hiding in my closet are the Christmas presents for my wife and family, nothing else. I am not the one making the racists comments. I am not the one that immediately pulls the race card to defame others. I did not see in the story the race of the defendants, freely admitting I may have missed it as I do not consider such things important.
It would appear by your comments that you are the anti-male, self loathing, hate filled person here. You are right about racism coming out these days. I have heard so many speaking of voting FOR the President BECAUSE of his race, and not being called on it. You sound like one of these, but I may be generalizing.
Bullies. All grown up.
Mack767431
If you read the article it was not said that any one of these guys killed the young man and none is charged with that. He is suspected of commiting suicide and these 8 soldiers are basicly charged with taunting him into doing it.
Ewent, there are racist corporate CEOs, University presidents etc. Don't even begin to say it's limited to those without an education. There are people who never even made it out of high school that aren't racist and they're white. Racism is everywhere, even among the 'educated'- and the 'educated' people such as yourself would know that.
Racism isn't just a Republican thing L Marc T. Nor do all republicans say that racism is gone. My parents generally lean toward the right on a lot of issues and believe racism is still running rampant. I know when I go home and my mom is watching the news and hate crimes are reported, she sighs and wonders why people have to be this way. My dad got flack for marrying who he did because my mom has Native American heritage. So yes, even though my grandparents are kind of racist (they did host an asian foreign exchange student though and she still visits them a lot), my dad didn't grow up that way. Yes often racism and bigotry are ingrained, but not always. Just as someone born of racists doesn't have to be one themselves, someone NOT born into a racist family can be a racist.
Maybe we're the only ones that realize it, but the so-called harrasment isn't very out of the ordinary. They're young men, in stressful situations, they need some form of stress release, and they crack jokes about each other. It's what happens when you're in the military. For Chen to have taken it so personally that he comitted suicide, just tells me that he wasn't fit to go into service in the first place. We used to do it on the aircraft carrier too, when I was in. The crew was all professional during flight operations, when it was dangerous out on the flight deck, but then we'd get downstairs and it was all fun and games. Noone took it personally, it's called "life".
I am not shocked by this.
You have to have no qualms about killing people you dont know, who you dont understand, and whom you've made up a story in your head about so you can sleep at night and not feel quilty about having killed.
if you can tell yourself it's ok to kill these people that had nothing to do with 9/11 and believe the BS our govt is telling them about WHY all this war is necessary and JUST...well, you'll have no issue with harrassing a fellow soldier who is different from you...or even killing him yourself if you think he's going to rat you out to superiors and ruin your military career.
The only people I have respect for are those who signed up for the military during a time of peace. But even then, I lack true respect...considering our military has not been used since WWII as a means of defending itself and our freedom. NO NATION has attacked us, threatened to invade us, or even has the means by which to do harm to us on a large scale.
INDIVIDUALS attacked us on 9/11
And if any nation had invaded us because some of our citizens went on their own and committed terrorist attacks aboard, we'd all rise up and fight to rid our nation of occupiers...and we'd rise up against our own govt if they allowed the invasion/occupation to occur.
YOU KNOW DAMN WELL THIS IS TRUE.
I strongly suspect YOU are practicing racism.
The KKK?? Lynchings? Slave Patrollers? Are we serious? Poor whites dish out the least racism?
Mike, its a lot more than that, but yes, we don't know if the investigation has determined they directly killed him. Obviously, though, there are quite a few charges, none of which are light.
As an old retired Marine Grunt with much combat experience (from VietNam to the 1st Gulf War) I would like to throw my two cents in:
First of all, not everybody 'fits' in a line company. The ones that don't are generally ignored or made fun of in some way. This usually results in this person realizing this on his own and making the appropriate adjustments.
However, there are those who become more and more isolated and separated. It is the responsibility of the senior enlisted cadre to recognize this and put a stop to it. In really severe situations, the company Commander has to get involved and squelch it or take appropriate actions up to and including transferring the individual for his own safety. That's the dereliction of duty charge against the 1st Lt. and the senior enlisted men.
"Fragging" is not uncommon and never has been. When the chain of command is unresponsive, matters are resolved in a much more basic manner.
For those of you who have never been a combat Infantryman, the life is one of unbelievable boredom broken up by periods of stark terror and fear. Being in a combat imminent situation takes on a life of its own--good friends suddenly turn on each other and become sort-of enemies, the quiet and even anti-social find their humanity and their tongues, the loners get f***ed with unmercifully.
You either adapt or you don't. The chain of command either takes charge of the situation or....
I am certain that there is more to the story than we are being told. However, if this event is indeed the product of racial hatred then, every American should be outraged. They should also feel a little less secure about the future of this country. With the challenges confronting us from all fronts, we need the skills of every race and creed. We can do this only when we begin to see each other as Americans first.
My sincerest and deepest condolences to the Chen family. Here is hoping that the truth will come out and something can be done to prevent this from happening in the future.
This is not about racism it is about school yard gangs or tribal mentality.. I think of these incidents where someone is singled out to be picked on as a childish social disorder.. The movie Lord of the Flies is a perfect example where in the quest to dominate a group you find your Piggy.. Or Adolph Hitler using the Jew as a scape goat to blame things on..
ewwnt - I apologize for not including this in my earlier response:
"From 1960's to 2008, racism was not the public display it is today." Are you for real? Did you take history in school? I remember the race riots of the late 60's/early 70's and the Civil Rights protests of the early 60's. I remember pictures of Sheriff's setting dogs and fire hoses on people who's only "crime" was wanting to get a bite to eat in the wrong diner or ride a bus. I remember Senators and Congressmen voting against equality in voting rights and being lauded for it. I remember seeing Governors not allowing children to attend school based on color. So, again I ask you, are you for real? I agree this was not our finest hour, but it deserves NOT to be forgotten or glossed over by folks who wish to forget it.
I agree completely.
I feel bad and angry that this event happened in our own military, however we must NOT let the left in this country apply THEIR idea of justice. That would involve FORCING MORE "diversity" onto people and passing legislation to INCREASE the sentencing such as in "hate crimes".
Most people tend to prefer to live and work among their own kind, but the government has decided that America WILL be a "multicultural" society, and when the inevitable problems that go along with it begin to surface, they just become more draconian about subduing the native populations (who looks after their rights?).
From LMT:
This statement is just a ridiculous assumption.
Here LMT validates the first statement concerning himself (thought no one else) with the prejudice and hate directed at 'the South'.
SabotAndHeat
I agree. Restated: "Despite the rants of SOME of the right..."
Does THAT work for you?
Interesting... I get called racist for leaving out the mid-west, for observing SOME at Tea Parties and for saying "we"? I guess my point was made... I need no more examples.
If you observe and call-out racism, this makes you a racist? Interesting circular argument going on here. Let me be prejudice and say: "Typical GOP response". Goes right along with the great debate tactic of "I know you are and so am I".
Wow, machinhead's post sound like as big a throwback to racist plantation era America as I have ever heard. Forget racism. We are in caveman land here. Please don't talk about the left because you aren't part of the right. You are part of the false if you think America isn't about mixing cultures. Sounds like Iran is more your kind of country.
You wouldn't call that murder?
For those of you that don't know Ewent is a TROLL, and is a racist, sexist, man-hating, jealous, Enviro-Nazi, psychotic, self loathing, hate filled, Feminist extremist that makes the likes of Andrea Dworkin and Camille Paglia look like June Cleaver. She gets BANNED about every time she crawls out from under her rock and onto the forums.
Why MSNBC hasn't banned her account permanently is beyond me, except that she is a radical, extreme leftist, liberal and usually conforms to MSNBC's political and social agendas and philosophy. Every post she makes violates the stated terms of use, with personal attacks, threats, name calling, off topic references, etc. The worst problem is if you ignore her, she doesn't go away, she just keep riming up until MSNBC/Newsvine finally has no choice but to lock her account for a few days or lose all credibility.
incase you morons havnt notice, liberal states has less racism in them
if you visist the south, YOU LITERALLY HAVE SIGNS SAYING NO GAYS N NO INTERACCIALS, PERIOD!
confederate flags, car stickers. you church nuts will go to any lenght.
try talkin to a white southener, then ull know
no matter how you sugarcone racism it exists everywhere, even in liberal state
but everyone knows the south hates blacks n asian, the west side near texas is more on blacks n mexicans
keep sugarconing it honey...
htdjpf, I don't know, is ewent really worse than machinehead? The radicals of the left and right post here all the time and while I usually mock them, I'll at least defend ewent for making more sense than machinehead. Man-hating, maybe, but I think the only thing ewent is really wrong about is what passes for 'a man these days' in thuggish behavior is rose colored glasses. Thug behavior is primitive, and we, as a society, are mostly working it out of our system. It isn't the other way around, as ewent explains. You are right, though, in the sense of talking about 'white trash' and the comments about men, in general, reveal a level of prejudice that goes beyond. I'm just sitting here watching those comments go up alongside someone who is promoting segregation. It is pretty damn amazing....people living 200 years ago, promoting plantation behavior, right here! Who built a time machine?
Someone has to hang only because someone died . With the very large exception of a body this sounds like very minor hazing . As a vet I saw it go on with every single person I ever served with . If your of color it could be that . If your from whatever state then its that . The color of your hair . The accent you speak with . Its military tradition . I went in as a 17 year old and instantly became " the kid " At 52 Im still the kid to my fellow military vets . You could be Red or Blondie or sunshine or the amazin asian or the black stallion . And the practical jokes that went with it all . Not condoning a death at all but to judge military life from the comfort of your living rooms is pretty damn arrogant . If you want to make it better then get your butts to the recruiting office . They need you .
So much for Band of Brothers. I teach my Scouts that they are all brothers and I have a good mix of boys in my Den. You look out for each other no matter who you are. Break that rule and you will be reprimanded for it.
Stop treating the military like some college fraternity. These boys should always look out for each other. They are all in it to protect our country because they sure aren't in it for the money.
Sure would be a terrible situation if these boys were actually in battle and the guy they picked on all the time was their only hope for survival because I am sure he would have to weigh the "entire" experience he has had with his fellow troops before making that decision.
Treat others the way you would prefer to be treated. If you prefer to be treated like a POS then you shouldn't be in our military. The problem I see is the military will accept kids with half a brain. Kids they know are going to be lifers because they would have trouble getting a job at McDonald's. These are kids that don't have respect for themselves and therefore will not have respect for others.
A lot of times it isn't necessarily bigotry or racism it is ignorantly labeling someone because of the simplicity. In other words, they hate without reason. This could have just as well been a kids being picked on because he was to skinny or had bad acne. Racism is alive and well because we keep it alive and well. Hatred doesn't need help, it is part of human nature. Emotions balance, love vs hate, happy vs sad etc.....
The officers, on the other hand, have no excuse.
Way to generalize sockurmouth. I have a feeling you haven't visited 'the south'. Or apparently Boston and other areas in 'liberal states' where one could argue there is just as much (or more) evidence of racism as your big bad bogeyman: the south.
Also, you can't 'sugarcone' racism. Unless racism is a flavor at Baskin Robins.
"Most people tend to prefer to live and work among their own kind, but the government has decided that America WILL be a "multicultural" society."
did he really say people want to be segregated and the gov is forcing us together?! Cause black people fought for a long time to be equal and NOT seperated from whites. Damn I thought we had come along way from "whites only pies".
Mr Machinehead please do the world a HUGE favor and go crawl back under whatever rock you've been living under.
since my first comment was "zapped", not deleted, not collapsed, just disappeared in the "anonymity" of the vine; i must ask the "community" just what part of "you can't handle the truth" can't you handle. people get on here and call each other names like children, rant off-topic, use racial slurs and general bigotted nonsense, and when one who knows the truth of the inner workings of our military and tries to share it with others we get wiped clean!!! who runs this one-sided argument anyway, hitler, palin, bush-cheney, rush limbsugh???
sockurmouth - Above the little window you are typing in is a button with ABC and a check mark. That is the spell check button. If you're going to be a bigot, at least learn to spell correctly.
Have you ever been South of the Mason-Dixon line? Have you ever spoken to a Southern resident, other than Yosemite Sam? Have you ever tried to see the other side of any argument? Have you skipped a medication dose?
Actually most black people were INDIFFERENT about segregation (to my knowledge) in the 1950s. Martin and a lot of the folks backed by the NAACP were integrationists, while Malcolm and the NOI didn't mind staying segregated, as long as they had equal protection under the United States Constitution. I think most black people at the time wanted to go whichever direction that worked to save them from the terrorism and get equal protection under the US laws and constitution. Black peoples primary concern was EQUALITY, not integration. The NAACP, and other "black" associations controlled by whites figured that it would be easier (and cheaper) to "integrate" schools than to get black people equal amenities. I know as a non-white person now, "integration" or "segregation", i would just like the practice of white supremacy (like the murder of Mr. Chen) to be discontinued.
Iam3rd
Wow. I know this is way too late now, but I meant that line to read:
"Just as NOT ALL of our non-military citizens carry deep rooted prejudices..."
So, Iam3rd and others, I apologize for the typo that changed the whole meaning of my post... no excuse here. I screwed up.
"Most people tend to prefer to live and work among their own kind, but the government has decided that America WILL be a "multicultural" society."
Wow, a clear case where ignorance and stereotyping still exist. What a weak statement where the writer obviously suggested that racism is for the good of the people themselves. Hence forget education to raise people above the level of ignorance... lol, only under a rock.
The irony of it all. Reading all the posts slamming each other because the other is so stupid of different, is very similar to the tragedy we read about above.
Private Chen was isolated however, and lived with the means to end the harassment. (if that is really what happened). You folks just get up and go take a crap and get something to eat. And this is what our fighting forces are protecting us from? Crazy. Americans just love to play the blame game instead of actually dealing with issues personally, without government legislation.
The citizens need to grow up and hold themselves accountable to the human race.
ewent has just as much right to her views as everyone else here, if you don't like them skip reading them. As far as racism goes it's obvious it's here and isn't going anywhere, so lets concentrate on fixing our own prejudices before trying to fix others.
Racism is alive and well, proven by all the posters on here. Lets throw PC out the door as it is way over rated and just let it all out. Being PC just hides the truth. It's kind of funny (not really more ironic) that everyone is against racism and such, but goes on to bash one another on the vine with hatred. IMO - I say fry the chumps, but again I have no details of the facts just my hatred showing.
If "multiculturalism" and "diversity" are really positive things to society, then why isn't Japan clamoring to get millions of Africans, Arabs and other Asians into their culture?
It's because they know something that all people knew at one time: people of a NATION are a strong people with common culture, values and morals and have a better control of their future. The Western masses have been brainwashed to believe that it is good and moral to destroy their own (white) heritage, traditions, values and people in favor of surrendering their sovereignty and prosperity and merging into some internationalist mess.
When this multicultural, multiracial society happens, there is not, and can be no great consensus of how a country should be run, because what one group wants offends another. What one group believes is fair, another believes is unfair. The system degrades into a government using legislation and courts to FORCE it's system down the throats of the people under threat of fine or imprisonment. Freedom is gone. Nationhood is gone.
If the Japanese people (a nation) decide they DON'T WANT Africans or Caucasians in their country, they are not forced to let them in or change everything they do to suit the newcomers. In the U.S. and most of Europe today, the host populations, their genetic heritage and culture are being REPLACED by others.
When did Americans vote to kill their own culture? When did Americans vote to be "multiculturalized"? They NEVER DID! The government and the media pushed this upon us.
I submit that most people only accept multiculturalism and diversity because they believe (for good reason) that they have no choice. Let there be a real NATIONWIDE VOTE where people can choose yes or no to multiculturalism in their region, and you'll see more people than you ever imagined opting OUT of this corrupt and doomed system. Hence, the power elite will NEVER allow such a vote to occur.
Kindly refrain from smearing my state, sir. You don't know what the f*ck you're talking about.
I think you're being racist. Your people had a WHOLE CONTINENT where you could preserve your "culture" and do your own thing and Europe was nothing but a plague of disease, malnutrition, and tyranny (at least where there wasn't a Moorish prescence). Its you all who started this whole "multicultural" thing by sailing to 3 different continents (N. America, S. America, Australia) exterminating the indigenous people of North America and Australia, amalgamating and then creating a new "race" of people in S. America, exporting Asians and Africans into these places to do forced labor.
You all BROUGHT THESE PEOPLE over here, but yet you complain about multiculturalism in a PLACE YOU AREN'T EVEN INDIGENOUS TO! The hypocrisy. Who would work at your McDonalds or raise your children if you deported the blacks, latinos, and Asians immediately? You don't want non-whites gone, who would you have to mistreat? There is ZERO evidence of sincerity in anything that you are saying.
The "internationalist mess" you describe was DESIGNED BY EUROPEANS to benefit EUROPEANS, and it started in 1492. I don't see any alliance of non-white people in a tactical mission to remove the dictator of Belarus, but I did see NATO move to undermine the alleged "sovereignty" of an African nation.
So, for whites to bring the "muds" into their country for skilled and unskilled labor, how does that put in jeoporady "white culture" and "sovereignty"??
the only difference between now and 50 years ago is that non-whites are afforded a basic level of respect, because the "internationalists" you speak of (white supremacists) OVERSTAND that globalism in the context of a Eurocentric hegemony is in the most jeoporady when ruled by an iron fist. Like 50 years ago.
*importing. My bad for the typo.
Jessica Said - INDIVIDUALS attacked us on 9/11
You keep believing that Jessica. Exactly why there is a service. You have the luxury of sitting in your living room, scratching your puppies belly, and eating bon bons, while you believe what you see on Americas state sponsored news media.
As for your respect? Really? Who are you? The fact that you don't agree, makes me confident that my time served was well worth it
Tek, your people, my people are from the US so are my people's people. I have as much European in me as you do African. I can't change the past nor do I condone it, I can only deal with the present. I give what I get regardless of race or gender or sexual preference, as I believe no one chose who they were born to be.
I agree, we should focus on changing the present. My post was in response to the gentleman complaining about non-white people in Western countries, which I see as entirely hypocritical.
Tek,That I can agree with you. Have to go to the Doc. have a good Holiday.
ewwnt You are a sexist! Now, if you don't like my post don't read it.
Comment # 1 restored for clarity.
wlee - no one said ewwnt did not have the right to her opinion. I have not seen a posting suggesting the denying of her the right to express her (misguided) views, only one questioning why her racism and sexism are allowed when others are more controlled and/or punished. Censorship has no place in the free expression of ideas, as long as those ideas are expressed in a civil manner. She has no more right referring to people as "white trash" than if another would refer to a black person by the dreaded "N" word.
Sorry, being PC has nothing to do with racism. PC is about civility between humans. If one hides his/her agendas behind words, it is not about PC (civility).
For example, "Most people tend to prefer to live and work among their own kind, but the government has decided that America WILL be a "multicultural" society." If a person simply say the first part "among their own kind" there may be case where he/she refers to similar belief or work ethics. There is a question mark with the "their own kind." However it can be overlooked, because one never should generalize especially when we are in such quick tit-for-tat forum. However the follow up phrase "government," "WILL," and "multicultural society" clarifies his/her intent. Remember, people came to America to avoid segregation and prosecution due to their culture, race, religion and blief. These pockets joined together to protect themselves (forming America) when their beliefs came under persecution. Non of the groups were of the same religion nor race. However, it was the PEOPLE WHO FORMED THE GOVERNMENT THAT protect their form of beliefs. It was not the other way around.
When was the last time you heard a racist remark with civility? Come on, it is an oxymoron...
So the next time when you hear people saying that being PC is root of many eveil. Think about what he/she is really saying... He or she resents the fact that people around them are no longer accepting their method of communication and basis for belief.
wlee-950886
You do the same.
sockurmouth, you are suspended for a day for violating rule # 1 of the Code of Honor.
Unfortunately we have a Volunteer Army/Air Force/Marine corps and Navy.......and 70% of our volunteers are Conservatives, mostly from strongly conservative states, where racism reigns.
If we had a military draft, it is unlikely that George W. Bush would have been able to conduct his unjustified,purposeless and illegal war in Iraq, which would have freed up more men to fight in Afghanistan,which is where our real enemy,Al Quaeda and Osama bin laden had been hiding out in......that mess would have been over long ago as we would have been able to use the brunt of our forces there,where it mattered, AND, there would have been,with a military draft, a more even-handed mix of Americans stationed, i.e. liberal Americans as well as conservatives, and perhaps the liberal Americans could have prevented the nazis among our forces from killing this young man.
Gee liam, hate much? "...and 70% of our volunteers are Conservatives, mostly from strongly conservative states, where racism reigns." Using your "logic" we should elect Judges since most are liberals from liberal states. And we should draft members of the media, since by their own admission, is 90% liberal.
How in the world do you KNOW where these people are from? They could be good old North East Liberal Bigots from Boston for all you know. You are just like Jack Murtha and John Kerry who have decided that the Military members are guilty until PROVED innocent TO YOU. (Since you libs like to have selective memory, history wise, Kerry and Murtha accused Military members guilty of murder, a charge proved false in Court Martial)
I for one am glad we do not have a draft. I served in a military partially populated by draftees and didn't like it. I preferred the all volunteer force when we had folks that wanted to be there. If we did have a draft, we might get folks like you who loathe the military and all they stand for, unless they make a good back drop for a photo op during your re-election campaign. I would rather serve with gold old country boys who love their country and will follow orders rather that try to open a debate society. I would rather serve with left coast surfer dudes who do what they are told and not a bunch of morons who run to the press, screaming discrimination when ever they are told to clean the head. In short, I would rather serve with anyone BUT YOU.
And HOW DARE you refer to our men and women in uniform as NAZI's? These people defend your right to bray like an ass and be the world class bigot your comments show you to be. You should be kissing their feet.
As for the war, you libs keep forgetting that the Democrats voted FOR the use of force (before they voted against it) and authorized the President to go to war. And al Quaeda members WERE killed in Iraq, and bin Laden was NOT killed in Afghanistan. You folks want it both ways. Where's your complaining about Obama going to war in Lybia? Or about Clinton bombing Iraq for the SAME REASON Bush sent in troops?
-Who would work at your McDonald's or raise your children if you deported the blacks, latinos, and Asians immediately?-
@TekKnowledge-I understand you were commenting on, the obviously racist, machinehead's drivel, but that statement, to me, is rude & stereotypical. And where I live, I only see CAUCASIAN people working @ McDonald's. I hate being referred to as "black". It is a color, not a race.
This proves the point:
Just wearing the uniform doesn't make you a hero.
Thanks for your service and sacrifice, Private Chen.
btone: and that's sad. Just this morning, I saw a gentleman wearing a Marines jacket. I thanked him for his service. He was quite surprised.
I told him that it goes often untold how grateful the average american ought to be. It's terrible that Private Chen went through this...
And I, too, as a citizen, demand answers. It shouldn't be just Pvt Chan's family/friends/loved ones.
tbone, you are right.
It is totally unacceptable that these "adult men" would act this way towards a fellow serviceman. They are all making the same sacrafice and he was a fellow American. Shame on them!!!
Thank you Tbone for expressing this so well. As an ex-soldier, I am so very sorry for Private Chen and his family. This is completely unacceptable. I hope this tragedy will make Lts everywhere pay attention.
Well said...
You can always tell when the dolts defend and play their refocus games, they are clearly displaying their own personal intolerance and their "My Way or the Highway" game. Sorry, I don't buy it.
There is NEVER any excuse for racism or bias in the military. Period. It's been the job of soldiers to work as a comprehensive defense mechanism down through history. Only today's bully bois with low testosterone levels need the jolt they get from bully intolerance.
What makes you people think the Military is any different then civilian society. There is good and bad everywhere, so stop condemning the Military RIP Chen
ewent, you are stuck on stupid, and racist, it seems. You bitch about intolerance, and you are the most aggressive , intolerant individual on newsvine. You jump to conclusions with no apparent regard for the facts. I suppose you are black, and are immune to being a racist, but little woman, you are a racist by all reliable measures. You are to be pitied.
wlee..As a woman with more than a dozen male relatives who have been in the military...the difference between the military and civilian life is one thing: TRAINING. You can always tell which guys have served in the military from those who never have. The former are men who have an experience that changed them forever. The latter are pantywaists who love to brag and swagger and wear cammos for the fun of it and then run at the sight of a rabbit in the wild.
The problem today has less to do with our military than our military outsourced contractors. Our military was never intended to be commercialized by Big Business and to turn our most loyal and dedicated Americans into employees of the military industrialists whose basic goal is death for profit.
@ ewent:
That whole statement you made is a ton of crap. Sorry, but I spent years in the military, and I can 100% confirm that there are still plenty of pantywaists in the military after completing boot camp and MOS training. The training is not very difficult, and only weeds out about 2%. That still leaves a large chunk of knuckleheads in there. You have to remember, most of the lower ranking soldiers are 17-22yrs old. If you know guys at this age, they are still acting like kids. Drinking, fighting, wrestling, name-calling and so on. It all happens.
I have never served in the military and quite frankly never wanted to....I am not afraid of your bowlegged beer drinking homophobic azzcracks who have served. I dont wear cammos and I don't think everyone who has served is a hero. My guess is you are a fat slob.
Perhaps Private Chen fell asleep on guard duty and this was how he was "awakened" by his fellow soldiers? It doesn't make it right, but men behave differently when they are under the constant threat of death. The value of human life varies greatly in a war zone.
Lord of the Flies type social disorder.. Hope the real truth is told..
Thanatos
Correct
I received this same treatment by a group without falling asleep on guard duty. These types are the majority of soldiers in the military this day and age. They sign up willingly and get a slap of reality of how insecure they are when they get there.
In any case I saw a kid..ET2 Chen... undergo the same treatment. I took him under my wing and helped him excel. Too bad Chan did not have the same fortune.
RIP
RoadRunner...A very apt analogy...Thank you. Is this what's happening to our society?
Roadrunner - "Lord of the Flies" is about right. Unbelievable and shocking display of racism and bullying.
Hopefully the bullies are outed and prosecuted , so their families can get a dose of shame.
Lkessler
Hey, kessler! I had that happen to me t'uther day and it felt stoopid. Don't do it. Ya don't join the Marine Corps cause of a great sense of 'service' but because you're young and dumb and expect to get some o' that there Marine stuff to fill out your own chronic 'kidness' or whatever. I joined on my 17th birthday and never thought anything about it except that I needed to do sumthin' and I wanted to do the best I could. The 'service' part doesn't register because it's nothing special, it's just what you have to do and doesn't seem out of the ordinary from what anyone else would do so folks coming up and getting all .....whatever it is, is not completely comfortable for the target. Kinda like an "Aw, shucks, it wern't nothin'..." moment and a sort of "WTF?" echo in your brain. If you want to seriously Thank a Marine, give them the gift of boredom and bring them home from these criminal wars that our elite is throwing them into like rats into a fire. THAT would be an appropriate gesture where instead of empty words you, yourself, make some kind of effort to see that our kids are not wasted by these rich psychopathic criminals and their corporogovernmental sycophants as we have seen so much of lately, so reminiscent of the nazis and zionists and filth like that, mass murderers for their own benefit who criminally abuse our children, our best children, for their own greed and political power. Instead of sayin' a relatively empty thanks, DO SOMETHING! Do YOUR OWN service for America and spit on people like bloomberg, trump, kotches, popes, et al ad nauseum. Better yet...well, can't say lest I get an all expense paid trip to Renditionville... OUR enemies are ALL right here at home and 'homeland security' means 'elite' security to do whatsoever the elite wants to do to us, however they care to do it without worrying about 'complaints' from US, the parasitized host. Sans doing something yourself, don't be thanking a Marine for what comes naturally, apologize to the Marine for being such a craven f**k yourself.
When a person enters the military their families have to TRUST their superiors that they will be treated as their own son or daughter. If people enter the military with a "gang mentality" instead of treating ever other solider or Marine as a brother then they should go home for the good of the country.
What was so evil about Pvt. Danny Chen that made his fellow soldiers threat him that way? This makes no sense to me. His family has every right to demand a full investigation as to how he died and who is responsible for his death.
Hate in America, Hate in the Military, Hate is So Wide Spread..I HATE; HATE, it's ah disgusting four letter word..i pray, Pvt Chen family is compensated well for his Service & Sacrifice, No Person deserves this..condolences to his family & friends.........
Hate in America, Hate in the Military, Hate is So Wide Spread..I HATE; HATE, it's ah disgusting four letter word..i pray, Pvt Chen family is compensated well for his Service & Sacrifice, No Person deserves this..condolences to his family & friends.........
As a retired Army officer, the actions against this soldier make me sick! There is NO excuse for this type of behavior except that soldiers in this day and age are from an entire other generation that those of us who served during the Vietnam war! We were proud to serve and proud to be soldiers and do our patriotic duty. Nowadays, these "kids" are only in it because they (1) couldn't find any other jobs, (2) they were forced to do so in lieu of going to jail, and (3) they wanted to get out of their parent's homes. They have NO sense of patriotism in most cases (not all, but most), and NO sense of what it takes to be a good soldier. You deal with ALL types of people in the military, and I found it to be very enlightening and actually enjoyable.
It's unfortunate that today's society is so narcissistic and only seem to care about themselves and not for others! None of us is better than any other person, but I guess only the older generation believe that in most cases. Kids are too wrapped up in themselves lately to actually know how to act properly! The scary part is that these "kids" are the ones who will be governing us in the future....and we see it with the Tea Party GOP freshmen everyday!
Rest in peace, Private Chen.....there are those of us veterans that applaud your service and are embarrassed by what happened to you! Prayers are for your family and friends.
Disgusting!!! Totally, totally, completely and totally unacceptable. These men are supposed to fight shoulder to shoulder and have each other's backs. There is never an excuse for racism or hate crimes. Yeah, soldiers need to be toughened up doing kp duty or endurance exercising but as a group - never singled out for hateful reasons. My son is a US Marine and is 1/2 Japanese and you can be darn sure no one's getting away with this junk in his unit. I'd have a fit. My kid or someone else's, I don't care. They serve together, they'd better respect each other.
As the wife and mother of Active duty Military men, my heart goes out to Chen's family and friends at this time. Racism is alive and well in America. Both in the military and in civilian life. It will never be legislated away. No matter how many laws the government enacts it will exist. Some believed that voting in a bi-racial president would suddenly solve the problem. I see the races more divided today than they had been in years.
All the racial comments made here prove my point. There was nothing said about the race/nationality of Chen's tormenters. They are a disgrace to the uniform they wear and to our country.
Didi. I am surprised at your comment, putting all current soldiers in your little groups and insinuating they are not patriotic. You are pathetic, and I am ashamed to call you a fellow retiree. There are bad apples in every group. His leaders should have known if something was going on, and put a stop to it quick. There is NO excuse for YOUR narcissistic comments. Get off your high horse.
What a failure of leadership and duty. Throw the book at these bums.
Not restoring # 1. Not a great way to start off discussion.
Don't grenade troll the armed forces, please. Thanks.
Can you say Karma?? I will not sit in judgement of these people involved, except to say, "You reap what you sow"!
Dasvet, you are suspended for a week for violating rule # 1 of the Code of Honor.
This is your fourth suspension.
Interested2011, you are suspended for a day.
Though I am saddened that grown men would pick on another, I cant get over the fact that if you choose to committ suicide, then that choice is all on you.
Didi - how can you question the patriotism of today's military, unlike the 60's and people being forced by the "draft" to show their patriotism, today's military is a 100% volunteer force and have done multiple deployments to combat zones of Iraq and Afghanistan.
But back to the subject of this seed.
The chain of command failed PFC Chen, from his fellow soldiers, his NCOs and his Officers. They failed in their primary mission "take care of your soldiers".
The Battalion Commander and Command Sergeant Major need to be at least reprimanded for not looking out for the welfare of their soldiers.
The Unit Commander and First Sergeant need to be relieved for allowing this environment to exist in their unit.
The Platoon Leader and Platoon Sergeant, Squad Leader need to face UCMJ for "dereliction of duty".
There is no excuse for this and the command needs to come down hard.
Didi-376564
Didi....I suppose someone had to say "Why can't they be like WE were, perfect in every way..." but these kids were not raised in a vacuum. They are US! My own prejudice says that these eight accused are 1) christians (and please no crap about 'oh no, REAL christians wouldn't...' when REAL christians have proudly done much worse than this all through history), 2) mainly from the South. We also have to examine our own prejudices in immediately assuming that this was, in fact, a racial issue. There are people, white, black, red, yellow, green (especially green), who seem to get picked on more than others. Someday we may know why but, for now, it's just something common to Chimpanzees, but to a greater extent, to their less intelligent cousins, Humanzees. And,
this was done bythe accused are mainly NCOs and an Officer (dereliction). There will be much testimony by other nonNCOs which will shed light on the circumstances but, really, there is much more than racism going on in a military unit built of diverse personalities and backgrounds under great stress. Of greater import is the entire behavioral state of America. There is a new book by a well known and popular historian name of Kenneth C. Davis, "A Nation Rising". If you read Chapter Five regarding the period ca. 1835 -1850, you will think "Whoa!, doomed to repeat it!" except that, instead of say Mexicanos, you say Irish [No dogs! No Irish!] Many other similar features to our current state stand out, most notably rampant christerness which seems to underlie in one way or another most of the evil that erupts here periodically or, at least, is used to facillitate such eruption. The book itself is a great read and well worth picking up besides the easy-read format. But, again, we seem to be living through almost an exact replay of that period but with the addition of an organized psychopathic elite parasitizing us, for spice, and inducing the same sort of polarization which soon led to the horror of civil war. ***** if you have any interest in your own national identity.i don`t mean to pick on didi,but most of the great soldiers who fought the second world war were happy to join just to have a job and escape the great depression.
There being nothing said about the racial classification of the murderers, so I have to conclude that most, if not all, of them are white (a lot of the Non-English Germanic last names seem to corroborate this).
Didi - What these eight men did was deplorable but so is your post. Perhaps in your day people were forced to join the military to avoid jail time but that is no longer the case. My son had to explain to the USMC why he failed ONE high school elective. Another young man was not accepted into the USMC because he had ONE DUI. Yes, due to the economy applications to the armed forces are up but because of that, the military is pickier about who they accept. They don't want trouble makers. You must have a high school diploma, pass a drug screening and have a clean record. I have met many of the young men in my sons platoon and yes, they were all under 22 but they were, each and everyone of them, very patriotic and proud to be a Marine. They aren't doing it for the money, many of our servicemen w/ families live near the poverty line because the pay stinks. Yeah they may go out and get drunk and rowdy but you would too if you were headed to the front lines (from your age and sex I doubt you saw much action).
Racism in America is alive and doing well.
"We need to know the whole truth"
Agreed.
This should never happen.
Alot of you people here keep saying that these people need to be punished. But if your such good Americans why are they guilty already (Innocent until proven guilty)? Not one of these men have been convicted of anything. The other half of you are calling them out as bigots. But it clearly says that he did the same thing to them (and it doesn't say it was these specific guys either) "People crack jokes about Chinese people all the time. I'm running out of jokes to come back at them.'" When I was in the military some of the biggest bigots were not white but of African decent (but its alright for other races to be raciest just not the Caucasian people). And to whom ever it was that said they stopped a person wearing a Marine Jacket... Don't! He could be some ding dong who purchased it at the local Walmart. I work with developmentally disabled sex offenders who have Marine Corps jackets (bought at Walmart). You wanna do something nice? Send a donation to the USO OR MWR (I prefer the MWR).
what kind of scum do we have in our military who would act in this way against our own. these socalled men should be shot. they have no right to live.
You're practicing racism, i strongly suspect. Show me where any black people, non-white people in the US military are engaging in racial violence against their fellow soldiers, or the people they are fighting abroad. White soldiers are mutilating POWs in Afghanistan. There isn't much evidence that any group of non-white people are "bigger bigots" than whites.
@ William Bjornson
Impressed that you at least admit your prejudices.
But, guessing they are Christians or from the South really proves nothing other than your complete lack of objectivity. Hate and prejudice knows no single venue, society or religion.
Opinions and actions have everything to do with each individual either embracing or separating themselves from our innate animal side.
In the military soldiers are forced to walk a fine line so that they are enabled to kill when necessary. This is why discipline must be absolute in the military.
In this case, lack of discipline let the dogs off the leash.
Really? Prove that race is the primary motivation.
Wow, that is pure racial propaganda and probably hate/guilt against whites. At the very least it is based on a subjective lack of evidence.
Lack of evidence? Can you name ONE incident in the US military of organized racial abuse towards a white person by ANY group of non-white soldiers? Put up or shut up. We hear about whites abusing non-whites in the military ALL THE TIME.
Put up or shut up about what? That you might be a racist? Or that you have no evidence other than what you choose to read. A "subjective lack of evidence" means your knowledge is based upon what you are or are not exposed to.
Is that because we only go to war with non-whites? The rest of your statement is pure hyperbole.
No, put up or shut up about you practicing racism (i suspect) and not answering my question. I will ASK AGAIN.
My Question (Again):
Can you name ONE incident in the US military of organized racial abuse towards a white person by ANY group of non-white soldiers?
give me just one...
And this is you ADMITTING that Post WWII, that White Western Nations ONLY go to war with non-whites that they idealogically disagree with. They didn't go to war with the Soviets (although I'll concede that was less about race than the Nuclear threat, although they did fight non-white people who organized Soviet-backed governments), they won't issue a NATO injunction to remove the dictator of Belarus, or remove any of the corrupt white fascists that they installed in Central America in the 80s, but they'll sure invade Iraq and remove Sadaam Hussein or to Libya to remove Muammar Gaddafi or to Venuzuela to remove Hugo Chavez.
I never made that argument. This is your strawman/deflection argument and you are begging me to take up the cause.
Non Sequitor and a converse fallacy of accident. Your logic is flawed. As for the rest of your instances they beg the question, " the majority of violent dictators are members of minority races found in the United States." See, this is an example using your type of logic.
How is it deflection? I'm asking you to prove your assertion that "blacks" (i'm broadening it to non-whites) engage in racial bigotry in the military more than whites, again which i suspect, given even recent history of the US military is a conscious act of racism, scapegoating, victim blaming, and deception. I'm simply asking you to back up you assertion with either statistical (or even anecdotal) evidence.
I'm not certain how this is a logical fallacy. Show me anywhere, post WWII, where a white western nation has gone to war with a white nation on idealogical grounds? I'm making a statement that was in response to what you said about Western nations happening to be at war with non-whites now. My statement is either TRUE or FALSE. There is no fallacy behind that.
I never made that assertion. That idea started as your question:
Now you are claiming I made that statement when what I really said was:
"Racial propaganda" because you are deliberately spreading it to promote your idea and harm others.
"Hate/guilt" because I don't know your race and because the comments are inflammatory to whites.
"Based on a subjective lack of evidence" because it is your opinion based on the facts you are aware of and believe to be true even though ONE instance of reverse discrimination in the military COULD prove you wrong. It is akin to saying, "It could never happen."
Then you should look up what a "converse fallacy of accident" is.
I was asking a question, not making a statement. That is why I put the question mark at the end.
That is what you call a Manichean dichotomy and also another fallacious argument. You're full of them today :)
Again, RIP to Mr. Chen...
My apologies, that was NOT your assertion, however it does seem to be the assertion of a person you are defending. The original intent of my comment was to address the quote i was replying to.
The original argument is that there is more racism practiced in the military by blacks than whites, which is such a ridiculous assertion that I have broadened to scope to include all non-whites.
So just to stay focused, we are asking this question.
Is it ridiculous to assert that non-whites engage in racial abuse of either other non-whites (US or Enemy Soldiers) more than whites engage in racial abuse of non-whites (US or Enemy Soldiers)?
A yes or no will suffice.
Keep in mind, THIS is the OP that I am responding to. Which I am simply stating is a ridiculous assertion.
And as far as I'm aware a black/white dichotomy is where you ask someone true or false to a question that has MORE than two answers. My question did NOT. So no, my argument is NOT fallacious, and it seems like you're just dodging my questions.
I'm not defending anyone but me and I actually agree that it is ridiculous to make that assertion. However the question posed is more a problem of math (probability and statistics) and population demographics than it is of any racial tendencies and by no means does it speak for or against any race. It is an ethnocentric idea where ground zero is the U.S. and other white majority nations, to the exclusion of others.
If you want to make it a non-ethnocentric idea, you can probably say the same thing about countries with white minorities and how the majority there treats them. That begs the question, is this just a case of typical abhorrent racial interaction and sliding down the slippery slope to a hasty generalization should be avoided? Isn't saying something like, or spreading the idea that, all whites pick on minorities just racism? It is an inductive argument based on what you know, not what is exclusive to "whites only" and it is based upon assumption and personal experience.
Which statement was supposed to be true or false? I need some clarity here.
Okay, now we're getting somewhere. Trust me i didn't intentionally ascribe things to you that you did not say. I'll admit I made a mistake. I do disagree with you a bit here though
This is partly true. I'll get to why in your next quote.
Now this is just blatantly false. The white race is praised nearly everywhere they go and are afforded dignity and respect that non-white people can only dream of (especially if we're talking about Indians or Blacks in Northeast Asia, or Africans in Western Asia). In the majority of non-white country with a white minority, whites represent the highest class of people living in that area. Brazil, South Africa, Colombia, Mexico, Peru, and Guatemala are all great examples of this. I will admit, i'm not sure about the military, but I would suspect not too many white people fight in those defense forces (with maybe the exception of Brazil).
I'm not being ethnocentric when I assert whites systemically mistreat non-whites far more than the other way around, I'm being real. Especially when whites (I'll limit to western Europeans for now) generally administer world affairs and only comprise about 8% of the global population.
50 years ago this question would be laughable. Yes, non-whites mistreat other non-whites. Non-whites mistreat white people too. But there has been no abhorrent structural or systemic abuse towards whites from any group of non-whites for the past 520 years (and even whether Moorish influence in Europe qualified as systemic abuse is debatable), since the Spaniards obviously had the power to expell them any time they wanted too.
Post WWII, that White Western Nations have ONLY go to war with non-whites that they idealogically disagree with.
i mean we kind of have moved past that, but answer if you would like...
That is quite a statement but your use of "nearly" gives yourself a caveat for it not to be true in all cases, therefore it is likely to be an unprovable proposition, thus opinion or hyperbole. But, if you can prove it, knock yourself out. It will at least be entertaining to see you get around with "amazing familiarity" on the subject. No doubt, you have either traveled the globe studying racial relations or you are using the "fallacy of the general rule" which forces me into "reductio ad absurdum." Or... your use of "nearly" is much like my use of "probably" when I said you could probably say the same thing about countries with white minorities. It is not a statement of fact, it is just general deductive reasoning. It does not have to be true or false since it just shows possibilities.
Who or what are your sources? Also, your source will need to prove that the mistreatment is entirely race related and no other reason can be given. If it is not about math, then it must be about something. Are you saying that it is skin color only for the majority of cases? Where do you get that? Race alone is the least possible hypothesis for any kind of majority of cases. It has to be an error of innumeracy or at the very least an argument through coincidence: oppressors of minorities are majorities, and barring that, Europeans (coincidentally whites) were far more advanced than the other races they oppressed. However, you are saying that race alone motivated the oppression and I have yet to see you support that and I cannot accept that premise without evidence.
Another argument from coincidence that says nothing about the motivations of the white western nations. If you can't see the logical fallacy in that.. you are beyond anything logic could tell you. The victim mentality would be thoroughly engrained into your psyche.
Your use of "likely" gives you an out as well. And this is a provable proposition. The several countries I listed would be prime examples, and I don't want to dig to get EVERY example, but I'm sure that countries in Western Asia and Some in Northern Africa would be the ONLY exceptions to that rule. Again, the evidence is that people who classify themselves as white comprise either an upper class or ruling class in most of the countries on the planet would suggest that they are not systemically mistreated. Yes, the reasoning is deductive, but so what? People have to infer things based on evidence every day.
I study racism, but it would be extremely tiring to post every country that is majority non-white on the entire planet with news articles, statistics, and other evidence to prove my point. One can simply read articles on how things work in Latin America and Africa to gain an understanding of how this all works. I could prove it, but it would be an immense waste of my workday.
Dr. Robert Jensen, author of the Heart of Whiteness.
Professor Noel Ignatiev, author of how the Irish Became White.
Dr. Joe Feagan, author of Two Faced Racism.
Dr. Frances Cress Welsing, author of the Isis Papers.
Jane Eliott, founder of the Brown Eyes Blue Eyes Experiment.
Lothrop Stoddard, author the The Rising tide of Color
Charles W. Mills, author of the Racial Contract
those would be several people who agree that systemic racism is GLOBAL, all respected authors, some white, some non-white, some against racism, some for racism. There are also people who refute their claims, but there are people who refute any theory.
Yes. That is precisely what I'm saying. That is precisely what Lothrop Stoddard and Madison Grant said. That is precisely what Pat Buchannon says. That is precisely what apartheid in India and South Africa said. That is precisely what "Whites only" signs and the KKK said. It is what Thomas Jefferson, Andrew Jackson, and Abraham Lincoln said. It is what William Shockley said. It is what J Phillpe Rushton and Charles Murray say.
How do you figure?
This is false. The Europeans got most of their technology from Asia and Africa (remember the Moors), who they latter went to dominate.
I never said "race alone". "Race" is a made up construct used to justify colonialism/white supremacy and the preservation of that lighter phenotype, which is easily "polluted" by non-European DNA.
Now you are changing the statement that I was referring to:
And making it about racism in general.
These people need to be punished to the fullest extent the Uniform Code of Military Justice will allow, no exception.
You know as well as I do, that many young people are in power over there. Young people are usually pretty uneducated and ignorant. I'm a soldier to. You are surprised at what happened? I don't think so.
I agree if the NCO's are found to have not done their jobs in protecting one of their own, Which is the job of an NCO. At all cost to help and mentor fellow soldiers and to be their best, The NCO creed DEMANDS such,
Mr. WorldClass...Being young doesn't make being stupid imperative. There are many fine young people in this country who will be the most excellent leaders in their middle age. Either the military has changed radically since my nephews were soldiers or their superiors are collecting a paycheck without doing their job.
You don't teach responsibility to young people when they are 20. You start when they are babies.
If they are found guilty.
If today's young people are more intolerant, it may be because they never were raised by their parents but by strangers in Daycare who could care less what behavioral examples they were exhibiting. I've always been proud of our military because they are the heart and soul of what this country stands for.
It's unfortunate that poor parenting or lack thereof has brought this country so many misguided young people. Materialism is never a substitute for great parenting. That's how young people grow values and principles. Dinner at McDonald's six nights a week and all the cells phones and pantookers their little hearts desire are no substitute for parents being there with their kids. That's where this misguided generation of bully bois is coming from.
yeah, lets blame it on their parents, or better still, our society that doesnt do enought to inform these morons that it is wrong to kill somebody because we dont like his looks, or his politics, or his ethnicity or sexuality. Maybe we could blame the teachers unions, or unions in general, or federal and state employees, or maybe Murphy Brown. gimme a break these 8 are animals trained to be animals by our "respected" military and the segment of society that worships war but doesnt want to particpate or acknwledge its consequences. look in the mirror amerikkka, if youre looking for somebody to blame... thats who to blame
Today's youth more intolerant? Are you sure? Read a history book. Internment camps, Tuskegee Airmen, etc. My father still calls Asians "GOOKS" he did not learn that from today's youth, it was on his tour of duty in Viet Nam, the military thought him that. How else would he be able to kill innocent human beings. The everyday language i hear today's elders use makes me cringe. Today's youth is a huge improvement when is comes to racism.
murph...Sorry, Teachers are not intended to be the sole source of behavioral education. That begins when an infant grows to toddlerhood. And, contrary to popular belief if civility isn't taught from infancy, the child grows to an adult whose views of civility border on a child who was carried off into the wild by a wolf....they know no better.
Parents are supposed to parent their children. That's the choice they make when they have children, assuming it wasn't all about sex in the first place.
I raised two now adult sons. You bet they know and understand their responsibilities. If that made me a tough single mom, so be it. At least, their independence is founded upon responsibility.
There's nothing wrong with today's 20-somethings. More of the problem is their parents..for one reason...their parents are far too materialistic and have their priority skewed. Owning everything in sight isn't a substitute for bonding with children. Sorry, that may be an old fashioned view but it's one that worked quite well for me.
My sons knew I'd defend them if wrongly accused. If they were guilty, it was up to them to accept the consequences because that's the way you instill responsibility. Today's parents think exposing their children to the consequences of their behavior is going to "destroy their security". BS. How can that be when parents spend more time out of their homes than they do in them? When their children are hauled off to daycare at 5 AM and don't see the inside of their homes until 6 PM when McMommy and McDaddy come home from work? That's early childhood? Sorry, I cannot possibly agree.
Parenting means sacrifice. Only the bravest know and understand what that means.
I don't care how someone is raised, at some point they either become human beings or they don't. I could blame my parents for every mistake that I have made in my life, or I can accept -- as a grown up -- that I am responsible for my actions and no one else. This young MEN chose to take a life, to treat another human being as less than human.
So blame parents, blame society, blame teachers, blame the military -- it's what we do instead of making people accountable for their own actions. I think it's time we stopped looking for someone else to blame. It's time to tell people: YOU are responsible for your actions. You mom and dad aren't, your school isn't, your television isn't....YOU are. We have to stop giving people excuses for bad behavior. They knew what they were doing was wrong....why are we looking someplace else so they are off the hook?
Hell yeah. My God wat else did they do to him? Heads are gonna roll...
Ewent, get off your high horse. As a single mom, what did you do with your kids when you went to work in order to pay bills and put food in their mouths? Or did you live off of welfare and foodstamps? Either way, your self-righteous attitude is ridiculous.
Murph, hopefully you do not live in America, if you do, please get out now, we don't need you.
as a veteran i feel that this people (if you can call them that) should be punished to the full extent of the law excute them if that may be possible, the crime was comited by an officer and three ncos that bad for the rmy
Thank you Govt, as a single mom myself back in the day I didn't get the luxury of staying home and raising my daughter the way I wanted, I had no choice but to put her in day care so I could work and go to school to pay for said day care and the roof over her head and the food in her belly etc etc... I don't know how you did it ewent, unless of course you did as Govt suggests, but you know the funny thing even though I was a "McMommy" my daughter, who is now 14, is a responsible honor roll student who knows right from wrong.
As long as a *child* is living at home, the parents are responsible for the child's actions. Once that child is no longer and child and is out on his/her own, then he or she is responsible for his/her own actions. The 8 people mentioned here are adults and are accountable for their own actions. It no longer matters what they were taught growing up. Sure, the parents may have taught these people to be idiots, but once they moved out (joining the military is moving out even if they don't rent or own their own place), then they are responsible for every action they take. They can no longer blame it on anyone else.
So, yes, parents are responsible... but only when the child is a child. It is true that many parents these days don't take responsibility for raising their children. But that responsibility applies only when the children are still children. Once they aren't children, the responsibility shifts to the individual, not the parent.
Govt...Since you asked. My sons were already old enough to be Latch Key kids...they were teens when I became a single mom...big time DUH out there for you. You can stow that welfare BS you like to associate single moms with.
1SG - I never come down on singles Moms. I was talking about the Daycare Brats who are invading our society with their overindulged attitudes of grandeur. Single Moms have very little choice in the matter of having to rely on daycare. Married men and women don't. They don't have to own McMansions and live in luxury while they abscond from their duties as parents to be there with their children. These are the one who place materialism as their first priority. Single Moms have nothing to own that compares.
I always encourage single Moms to keep moving forward and never look back. The load a single mom carries isn't shared and it's double the weight of their married counterparts. The sad reality is that most single moms who choose not to remarry rarely catch up financially to the salaries their exes earn.
That too is something I fight for. In 2011, women still earn 71 cents for every dollar a man earns. For a single Mom that's a life sentence of struggle without parole. There's a price to pay for such independence. Sometimes unimaginably high.
I do believe nitwit I mean ewent wants the 1940's back with stepford wives, do you really think with working parents kids grow up to be criminals? I'm pretty sure a minority of them turn out like these 8 guys. I figure most kids are buttheads but most of us make the decision to grow up and treat people with respect. this is a decision made by the individual. Lots of terrible people had great parents who doted on them and yet that person still turned out to be Bundy or Gacy or Dahmer etc. It's not just about parents it is about what is inside the person.
raines...I taught thousands of children as dance students over a period of 3 decades. Don't tell me what I observed about children whose parents should never have been parents. I also volunteered in the 1960's at an abused women and children's center. I saw and heard things from these people that would make you cringe.
If you are trying to make the point that children don't need parental guidance, please do give it up. However, today's psycho babble from parents about their need for "autonomy" is an excuse for parents to avoid the job of being of parent and being a parent is a job not all so-called parents are up to.
I agree that some of the best parents are not to blame for their adult children's behavior. That's why they are called "adults". But, unwittingly a lot of parents, myself included, don't always give the best examples of adult behavior all of the time.
Riamus, I agree with what you say to a point, but saying that parents are responsible for their childs actions just because they live at home is wrong. What happens when your 16yr old son gets drunk at a party and kills someone driving home from it? Is THAT your fault? If your 15yr old daughter Steals a $400 purse from the local department store, is that your fault? NO. When they are old enough to know the difference between right and wrong is when they need to take responsiblity for their actions.
Part of what is wrong with this country today is that it's ALWAYS someone elses fault. The poor blame the rich for sending jobs overseas, while at the same time we shop at Walmart and buy all the new high tech gadgets coming in from overseas. We wanted "Good stuff cheap" and are now learning the consequences of that.
Defense attorneys tell the jury and the judge that it's not the Criminals fault that he's a druggie/rapist/murderer. It's because he/she had a bad childhood. Was picked on in school. Came from a poor family, etc.
If the charges are confirmed and proven, I hope all those responsible get what they deserve.
You're a total saint Chen! Don't worry you had more courage and honor than those despicable BIGOTS could ever dream of. Wish I could take your place and remind those 8 delusional BIGOTS "Cho resurrection II" before departing. RIP brave one!!!
What its not enough we have these terrorists killing our troops, now we have out own doing the killing. Hang these pieces of trash. They deserve nothing less than what was done to Chen.
We have home grown terrorists today because these Daycare Generation brats can't get attention from McMommy and McDaddy anymore. They're too long in the tooth for babying and so now it's neurotic frustration that produces their bullying, radical extremism and lack of tolerance. Not to mention cow mouths.
It's time to shine the spotlight on the bully boi behaviors that seems to be growing among the Daycare Generation Twerpage. Take a look at what they consider "sport"...extreme fighting akin to the Roman arenas where humans were fed to the lions. This is a sickening commentary on today's younger generation of men who go around fists pumping, chests puffed out, faces smirking like the fatheads they really are. One swift kick in their family jewels and all that hot air goes out the window.
Civilized, rational human beings do not need to prove their superiority like these balloon-headed bossy little dolts.
Well Said Ewent
Look out boys, we've got a feminazi on our hands.
ewent, as a fellow female, I'd like to tell you to get off your soapbox. It's not attractive and you've got the same attitude that these men did who taunted this fellow soldier. Beating people 'round the ears with your personal opinion is not the way to get people's attention. When ours eyes start bleeding from reading your comments, enough is enough.
Calm down killer.
Capt...First of all....I don't take orders from people who don't pay my bills, wipe my behind or think they are more superior than I am. Male or female. It's time someone got on a soap box and reminded some of the bullies out there that one four foot ten inch female knows how to aim for the family jewels when she's being bullied.
Maybe if discipline had been part of the Daycare Generation's youth, they wouldn't need reminding that their lack of civility is getting on older people's nerves.
Don't tell other adults what to do. It doesn't give the best impression of how not to be a bully...female or not. I am as entitled to my opinions as you are to yours. Unless there's a valid reason to not want to hear the truth about today's bullies, then there's not a reason in the world to reject my opinion, is there?
My husband and my children should not need fear for their safety from fellow citizens and soldiers meant to protect them simply because of their race. Feminazi Captain?? Have someone taunt, harrass and kill your child and perhaps you'd then feel differently.
one minute she is saying that the people who get there bills paid ans asses wiped are dolts but yet she wont listen to anyone who doesnt pay her bills or wipe her ass wtf your a moron!
@captbrngdwn
If you had a worthwhile opinion, you lost me the moment you used the expression "feminazi." Is this your first day on the Internet? If so, welcome. You will learn quickly that name-calling gets you nowhere.
As for "eyes bleeding from reading," I've never seen worse rubbish, except maybe "feminazi." If being subjected to a difference of opinion you vehemently disagree with was cause for physical harm, then my head would have exploded from listening to Fox News a long time ago.
As much as I would love to tell people what to do and have them listen to me, I can't and I'm not. I'm sorry you can't tell the difference between a suggestion and a command.
I am in no way, shape, or form condoning what these "soldiers" did to this young man. What they did was terrible and they should be punished to the fullest extent of the law, in my opinion, they should be sentenced not only by a military judge, but also at federal and state level as well. There is no excuse for people to be bullied for their race, sexual preferences, religion, or anything else in this day and age. I'd like to think we're an advanced society, however these barbarians prove we still have a long way to go in how to treat our fellow mankind.
That being said, I still think you are way too pushy in your rants. And by the way, I don't give a rats arse how short you may or may not be. Your size has nothing to do with this entire thread. You are not the only female to know how to defend themselves (trust me on that. I've got a Smith and Wessen that speaks for me and mine.)
I do not reject your opinion, merely your deliverance.
Maybe so ewent, but unlike you apparently, we both had to work to get by back then. The fact is the less educated you are the more likely both parents have to work and it's not getting any better. I am not sure you could argue with that other then being insulting to someone who may already be on the brink. Society is what it is and if you want a parent to stay home, then pick a poor family and donate to the cause and be the difference. It's kind of like the anti abortion people, making abortion harder for poor people to get, yet they wouldn't lift a finger when it comes to raising the child. This is even more pronounced when the baby is the wrong color for some. It's a god awe full shame, but as I said be the change you want to see.
That my post was misread by the predictably ignorant isn't a surprise. Work three jobs to feed your family most of your life, then criticize. Truth is often more pushy than the pantywaists would like. Most of us don't really like hearing the truth. But some of us are quite fed up with today's bullies and it has to stop. To ignore bullying, allows it to grow in a society that purports to call itself "civilized".
For the uninformed, I'm not now nor ever have been a feminist. I know I'm a woman. I know the world is depressingly masculine and I don't let that stop me from reaching my goals. I pay my way through this life like most people do...experience and BST. I earned the right to my opinion thanks to paying those dues. If that offends anyone, so be it. Not my problem. Offense is best mitigated by those who play defense. I credit 5 half brothers and 2 biological brothers with teaching me the toughness I now possess.
FatBob...your post lost it the minute you assumed. I've worked one full-time and 2 part-time jobs for more than 3 decades. When you can follow that act, let me know.
As for education, I'm a published author of 2 books. I'm a freelance SEO copywriter and former dance school owner of more than 3 decades. I started to work at age 14 in a small confectionary store and worked my way into teaching dance at Rutgers part-time for 12 years...Assuming makes an ass of some. Few Americans today can lay claim to being a business owner at age 17, I was raised by an Italian immigrant who couldn't read or write and a very ambitious 2nd generation European mother who was as smart as could be. She lived in a male dominated generation that kept her every move under surveillance in order to keep her "in her place". I'm a typical product of the 60's...I rebel at bullying, baseless authoritarianism and phony superiority rituals to boost egos.
I was taunted and harrassed in high school...by other girls! I wore hand-me-downs from my older sisters and wal-mart stock while the girls taunting me wore Hollister and Abercrombie. My locker was trashed, the girls spread rumors about me, called me names, bashed me for refusing to use vulgar language etc etc etc. So, it is not limited to the poor white male to bully and taunt. My hazing and harassment came from other girls in high school. Guys actually stood up for me, and I am grateful to them for it. Not to say that some of the guys didn't do it too, but a lot more girls teased me than guys. And it's been the guys since that time who have apologized to me when home for the holidays.
Bullying and taunting comes from the rich, from the poor, from the white, from the black, from the asian, from the native american, from any race, religion or anti-religion and from any part in the world. It is ignorance to suggest otherwise.
Man what a blow hard bag of hot air ewent is. Way to pat yourself on the back there girlie.
Ewent, you say you are a typical product of the 60s, yet in an earlier post you claim that outright racism didn't happen from the 1960s to 2008 when Obama ran for president? Yet the 60s were the very height of the civil rights movement? Is there something I fail to understand, here? In my studies of history back in school, we talked about the ways in which racism was still a problem. We came up with a long list, and I graduated high school prior to 2008.
Doctor13a,
You really are quite the tired old cliche, aren't you! Just so tired girl!
As if there weren't bullies befoer today's generation ewent? please. Give me a freaking break here lady. When my mother was a young girl (think 6) she was in a public swimming pool. She brushed up against another little girl. The little girls big brothers (think 16) saw it and came over and proceeded to push my moms head under the water until my uncle came over and got him off my mom. Guess what? The boy was black, my mother is white. All for nudging his sister in a pool.
You want to tell me that bullying and racism is a new phenomenom? I call BS. And your life history does not impress me. Nor anybody else for that matter. Good for you, you raised your kids. And you're a single mom. Whoop-de-frickin-do. Join the club of millions.
Ewent,
Forgive me for being confused, but if you 1 full time and 2 part time jobs and owned a dance studio, how is it that your kids aren't of the "daycare generation" as you put it? While I agree with some of what you say about many parents these days lacking the responsibility of actually raising their children, I do not agree that because parents have to work and send their child to daycare that those children are automatically doomed to be moral idiots. I have been a working mom since my son was 9 months old, so that I could feed him, but that does not mean that when I came home at 6pm I didn't do my best to instil in him right and wrong. Maybe, if you weren't so fond of generalizing your statements to include an entire generation and patting yourself on the back (we've all struggled with something), people would actually understand what point you were trying to make.
Bullying is a huge issue in today's world, and while it has always existed in one form or another, it seems to be more cruel and demoralizing than it was when I was growing up. This has pervaded our entire society and is no longer only what happens at school, all you have to do is watch a little of the trash we call reality tv to see that bullying others in now what we call entertainment. We are, as a society, saying this kind of behavior is ok even funny, unfortunately it still isn't funny to the person on the receiving end and never will be. Haven't enough kid's committed suicide and now a full grown man serving his country, to tell us something needs to change?
Liz...Show me in my post where I posted that drivel you are now contorting to prove your validation of criticism. I stated that today's blatant return to racism has motivation...a bi-racial president. Where was the same blatant racism when Bush, Clinton or Bush's father were president?
And yes. The 60's was the height of the battles to insure all Americans had civil rights. As for history books, I've seen some of the red state history books. I despise the hypocritical manner in which they make the Civil War appear so phony. History in red states is often deliberately distorted to "save face" a fine old southern tradition I witnessed first hand with in-laws from the deep south. That enough experience in history for you?
Ewent,
Forgive me for being confused, but if you 1 full time and 2 part time jobs and owned a dance studio, how is it that your kids aren't of the "daycare generation" as you put it? While I agree with some of what you say about many parents these days lacking the responsibility of actually raising their children, I do not agree that because parents have to work and send their child to daycare that those children are automatically doomed to be moral idiots. I have been a working mom since my son was 9 months old, so that I could feed him, but that does not mean that when I came home at 6pm I didn't do my best to instil in him right and wrong. Maybe, if you weren't so fond of generalizing your statements to include an entire generation and patting yourself on the back (we've all struggled with something), people would actually understand what point you were trying to make.
Bullying is a huge issue in today's world, and while it has always existed in one form or another, it seems to be more cruel and demoralizing than it was when I was growing up. This has pervaded our entire society and is no longer only what happens at school, all you have to do is watch a little of the trash we call reality tv to see that bullying others in now what we call entertainment. We are, as a society, saying this kind of behavior is ok even funny, unfortunately it still isn't funny to the person on the receiving end and never will be. Haven't enough kid's committed suicide and now a full grown man serving his country, to tell us something needs to change?
Post 1.33 in response to odb2's now collapsed comment:
Bob...You responded to the post. Got something in the closet you're hiding? From 1960's to 2008, racism was not the public display it is today. Men didn't publicly make remarks they knew were racist. So..who's the racist now?
OH HECK YES THEY DID! Where have you been living? Hate crimes involving race and public displays of racism happened long before Obama was president or running for the presidency! Obama is NOT the cause for today's blatant racism. Yes, being the president makes him a target, but there was blatant racism when the Bushes, Regan and Clinton were presidents. People targeted Collin Powell for crying out loud, not only for his race, but for the fact that his wife had mental issues. And Powell served under the Bush 2's administration.
Capt...The difference is today's bullies are growing in number. Do you deny it? When ever in the 60's were there laws that had to be enacted to stop the growing bullying?
There's an old saying for the women who lack achievement ..."Jealousy is the tribute mediocrity pays to genius". (Bishop Fulton J. Sheen to Cardinal Spellman circa1950s).
Women who criticize accomplished women do so because these neurotic haridans are happier when they can look down their snobby noses at women on welfare and play all the blame games they want. But let a single mom be a success and these married harpies suddenly can't stand it.
No surprise there. As for bullying, I think there's a huge difference in what your Mom experienced and what happens when a thug kills an innocent guy for no reason other than that he can.
By the way, ewent. I'm not from the south, nor do I have relatives from the south. California and Illinois more like it. You know, that state that Obama is from?
Day care for sure isn't the best, especially the 7 to 7 programs... which is sad. Working part time in elementary schools, you see the little kids who want attention - some more than others. But at least they are getting some structure, have snack time and homework help, then playtime. The ones who twist in the wind as latchkey are even more sad.
Part of the bullying issue is "just the way it is", school yard behavior that has gone on for generations, and not just in America. But it goes too far because of misguided school policy, in part - the zero tolerance for violence leaves some too afraid to stand up for themselves. Too often the "good" kids who try to follow the rules are prey to the ones who do not. We had the old fashioned policy, "don't start it, but finish it" - if suspended, so be it - but my kids were not bullied, and were never suspended. (But one one occasion could have been, if caught defending themself.)
Partly, the escalation of violence is socioeconomic - the poorer the neighborhood, it seems, the more out of control and severe the bullying. The 3 levels of income areas (high, middle, low) where I worked over a few years - this is was my observation (as part of a school counselor department, to volunteer mom). Lack of supervision and guidance seems to be the rule, overall.
Volunteer at your child's school - or even donate generously - the child will be treated better, fyi.
Haven't you all figured out that Ewent is nothing but a hypocritical TROLL?? She is a hard-core, self-hating, socialist, leftist, liberal, man-hating, feminist hypocrite. Her posts in this thread are classic examples. She rails against the day-care raised kids, of "Mc-mommy and Mc-daddy" in their "Mc-Mansions" (notice the Class Warfare rhetoric of the liberal, socialist, OWS, DemocRAT), that radical, rabid feminist like her created.
BUT, it isn't "Her" fault, it is everyone Else's fault. It is Oppressive, abusive, sexist white-males, or "The Rich", or "Ignorant Christians", or pick your favorite group liberals "Hate",etc. Notice again the liberal habit of not taking responsibility or yourself or results of your actions/choices. Also note the hypocrisy that it is alright for HER to project her "Hate" on everyone else, throw around stereotypes, spew baseless insults and slurs, because SHE is an "Enlightened Liberal" and knows better than the rest of us "ignorant Neanderthals".
@ Ewent. Question. Who watched your sons for you while you worked your 3 jobs?! One full-time, & two part-time for over 3 decades?! You sit there and bash Parents who have their children in daycare, when many of them, if had the choice or option, would not have them there. Not every parent works & worries about having the best & newest of everything. Some of us just want our kids to have the opportunities we didn't.... Like joining a dance class, playing a sport, learning to play an instrument, or just having 3 healthy meals a day. Daycare may be there from 6-6, but good parents won't let that affect their ability to raise good, responsible children. Yes you are a tough, hard-working, single mother who is allowed to voice her opinion. But when you start sh*tting on the way other tough, hard-working, single & not single mother's & fathers raise their kids, then it's time for you to SHUT THE HELL UP!!
And let's not forget this act of racism and bullying happened to an asian man, not a black man. Obama rising to the presidency did NOT start the wheels on bullying Chen.
LOL why yes as a matter of fact, I do disagree with you on that ewent. There are not "more" bullies "nowadays" than there were back in your good ol' days. Far from it, however, we do have more media outlets than when you were young. Youtube, Facebook, Myspace, any social media connects millions of people daily. Kids want to "impress" their friends. We see videos uploaded instantly of kids fighting and being taunted. There are facebook pages where mean kids can harass someone they don't like. Just because we are seeing it more and more does NOT mean it is growing in numbers.
And, why would I be jealous of you or your accomplishments? I'm working on my master's in criminal justice. No, I didn't own my own business at 17. I already told you good for you. But I'm not impressed. There are thousands like you that are succesful who don't need to toot their own horn. Those are the ones I respect. The ones that bust their arse to achieve their goals SILENTLY, they don't need to boast or cry for attention, unlike you.
You're absolutely right. There is a huge difference in what happened to my mom and what this young man experienced. Do you know the difference? Nobody was there to save this young mans life, like my uncle saved my mom. THAT'S THE ONLY DIFFERENCE.
My sons didn't need watching. At the time of my newly found "independence", the eldest was 15 and the youngest of the two 13. So, I left for work for 9 AM every day and they started school at 8:15. When they arrived home, the close knit neighbors we lived with and my Mom kept an eye on things. No Daycare...sorry.
You know any 15 year old today who needs a babysitter from 3:15 PM (school dismissal) to 5:15 PM (when I arrived home from work?) I was just fortunate they were not younger when I divorced my ex. Because back then, there was NO Daycare as there is today.
I owned a dance school before I married and after I did, my then ex watched the boys after school. That's usually when dance classes can only be planned. I closed the dance school when I divorced because my ex who never danced a lick in his life owned half and half the profits would have gone to him. I wasn't about to do all the work and earn extra money for him.
I didn't want his alimony. It would be one more tie that wouldn't be severed. But he was going to pay child support if he had to do it from a jail cell. In actuality, that $150 a month child support was the reason I had to take on 2 part time jobs from home where I could keep an eye on things.
Super Moms back then invented "multi-tasking" and were always aces with time management. I was lucky enough to have a small network of other professional single moms with whom I could rely on.
Capt...Did I ask you to be impressed? This is who I am. If that is a problem for some. It's not MY problem it's causing them angst, envy or the need to criticize...it's theirs. If you are advancing yourself, God Bless. In these tough economic times, no woman can afford the luxury of status quo. That's the reality.
CaptBrngDwn,
Do you currently have children in school? If not then please don't voice your opinion on how much or little bullying there is in school today. I speak from personal experience when I say there is more bullying now and it is of a very different nature then when I was a kid. I was bullied because I was the smart kid who liked school, but the extent of that was an occasional confrontation by one of the bullies. My son is now in school and is being bullied because he is the smart kid, he gets verbally, physically and emotionally tormented on a fairly regular basis, and even with constant involvement on my part it is almost impossible to make it stop. Now, I agree that the social media sites have made this worse and easier to get to the bullied kid, but that's where responsible parenting comes in I monitor my child's Facebook page and he is not allowed a cell phone.
Having said all of that, however, it is not only children that are engaging in this type of behavior. Turn on any of the trashy reality tv shows and see full grown adults doing the same things, often in front of their children, and tell me our society hasn't become more tolerant of bullies and the poison they spew. We don't even call it bullying, we call it entertainment.
I bet everyone wishes they were a superhero like you ewent. a tiny mouthy super mom
hdt...Wow...you really do know me soooo well, don't you? To be able to so aptly capitalize on me with such knowledge. Get a life...I'm on vacation this week. Do you mind? I also already finished working 3 hours on SEO articles.
As for your misguided assessment of a perfect stranger, I'd be curious to know how well relatives fare with that kind of monolithic judgmentalism.
For the record, I never waste time on hate. I love truth because it's a cleansing factor some people have yet to meet with.
Sad to say, but I don't expect much more from an organization that trains killers. Go to Youtube and search military abuses in Iraq and Afghanistan. These guys get totally desensitized to killing people. It makes me sad and very angry at the same time. I know there are good men and women in the services as well, but still, there is too much of this damnable behavior, and I MEAN DAMNABLE, AS IN THE UNREPENTENT GUILTY BURNING IN HELL FOR ETERNITY! Rest in peace Private Danny Chen.
Kim, I have to agree with a lot of what you are saying. Reality television is sick, and shows adults are no better than kids. When I do have children, they won't be watching that crap.
But with the argument that bullying is worse now...ehhh not so sure. I think it depends on the school. My dad went to high school in the 60s and did get bullied as harshly as some kids today. Granted there wasn't any social media back then, but that didn't stop people from trying to physically beat him up. Freshmen were hazed on the football team, etc. I did go to high school in the age of social media, though when I graduated facebook was relatively new. But we had myspace, xanga, etc etc. That kind of thing still went on. With the social media arena, bullying has definitely changed, but physically beating up on kids and tormenting has been around for a long time.
raines...now now...envy is one of the seven deadly, don't you know. I stated that as a single mother I was a super MOM not a super hero. I'm no more or less cowardly than the next person.
But yes...I was a super Mom ...ask my sons and the armies of their friends who spent most of their time in my home for more than a decade as they were growing up. How many McMansions have a house full of other peoples' kids these days? Sorry if that offends the senses of the McParents these days. But home isn't just where the heart is...it's where your kids and their friends belong.
No, my son is not yet in school, he will be next year though. And I'm pretty sure I can still voice my opinions on whether or not bullying has intensified or not, whether my child is in school or not.
Show me one person that was not bullied in school or at home. Can you do that? No, I didn't think so. Everyone is bullied in school at one point or another.
I am sorry your son is being bullied, like I said, I do not think ANYBODY should be bullied.
As for TV, if you watch that trash, its your own fault. If you allow your children to watch that "entertainment" then you have nobody to blame but yourself for encouraging this bad behavior (not you in particular, but anybody who watches that.)
How many McMansions can boast having their friends over all the time? Plenty where I grew up. That's where all the parties were.
A friend of mine in a volunteer group I worked with in college came from a rich family. Though they were rich, she was never in daycare. They live in a huge house in one of the wealthiest neighboorhoods in the city, and yet we went over there all the time on Friday night after volunteering. Her mom would make us nachos and hang out with us while we played games. Her dad would hang out for awhile before going to bed, but he had to work on Saturdays, so he couldn't exactly stay up as late as her mom could, her mom being a teacher.
I think what it boils down to is good parenting. You can be a terrible parent and be not as well off, and you can be a great parent and be incredibly wealthy. I came from the not so well off background, but I do have amazing parents who have been so supportive and went without things so that my siblings and I could have opportunities.
And I do want to clarify that the parties at wealthy homes in high school are different from the gatherings that happened in college with my friend from the volunteer group. I wasn't invited to anything in high school because I was in the unpopular crowd. Not that I would have gone anyway. I didn't want to ruin my chances at a Track scholarship for college.
Kim I think bullying has alot to do with the school you send your kid to. (i mean in general I don't know where your child goes) When I went to school like 15 yrs ago my school did not tolerate bullying. If you fought or continually harassed another student you were suspended or given detention for lesser offences. now fast forward to 20011, my daughter goes to a school where bullying is tolerated unless you are calling them everyday and threatening to flippin sue the school they do nothing! When the school lets children believe that being mean and name calling and violence is ok then even the kids who would not normally bully join in because there is no one stopping them. I think that is why it seems worse than when we were kids because it has somehow become acceptable.
CaptBrngDwn,
I never said I watched that trash nor would l ever let my child (but thanks for assuming), but you can't escape the commercials for them no matter what station you watch, even the news reports stories on the idiots who are involved in those shows. While I agree that the people who do watch do so at their own risk, unfortunately the rest of us have to deal with the consequences of a good majority of America thinking that's ok. Also, I know plenty of kids who never experienced bullying and still do.
Ewent,
Does your arm hurt from patting yourself on the back so much? It must have been nice to have had the opportunities to spend so much time with your children and have the means to have them and all their friends hang out at your house. Some of us don't have that luxury, however, that does not make us bad parents nor does it mean we don't work just as hard to instil right and wrong and be there for our children. As you so elloquently put it "your misguided judgement of perfect strangers" frankly baffles me.
Ewent, what the heck are you talking about? When I said the less educated a person is the more likely both parents have to work to get by; was not directed towards you or your education level. You crossed the line several times in your posts and now your ranting about yourself, which has nothing to do with what I was saying. You obviously walk your walk and as you can see everyone thinks and is correct to point out "it's all about you".
You my friend are a classic example of a liberal education system that has gone awry. Step back for a moment (lighten up as they say) and look at your answers. No one was judging your toughness or education, yet you assumed. As far as growing up in the rough 60's, well I am hear to tell you the 70's were way worse, I had 5 druggy friends in high school and only 1 left after high school. I was beat to crap, thrown from a roof with my bike, had all my hair cut off, broke my nose twice. I adjusted, survived and was very good with electronics and cars, so believe me payback was a bitch for the ones that drove to school. I was scared to death of school, so I had to play catch up at a juco. Unlike you it took a while after that horrific experience, so being objective is not a virtue of yours and maybe it should be. All that education, Rutgers would look at your responses and shake their head. So there you go bullying 101, your first class with a survivor, put that in your book.
ewent, you said you don't spend time on hating,please refer to all comments made about men and the republican party. You had a bad marriage get over it. As far as History books go, of course it's going to slant towards the victor, that's how it's always been what a surprise.
Kim,
I'm pretty sure I clarified in my statement that I wasn't directing that at you, but thanks for not paying attention.
And if you don't have cable, kids are not subjected to that trash tv. During the day, the tv is set to be on Nick Jr, where the worst commercials I have to deal with are toy advertisements. However, after my son is in bed, then I will watch other programs.
Here's my impression of ewent..... yak yak yak yak yak.
Racist US soldiers? NO WAY
Racist people on this post? Racist McDonalds workers? Racist police officers? Racist fire fighters? Racist kids in school? No Way!
I'm a US Soldier. Most of them are kids, and kids shouldn't be managing war fronts. They are uneducated and ignorant to the ways of the world.
Mr. World Class...You can always tell the real soldiers from the play actors. The real soldiers know they represent their country no matter where in the world they are. The play actors love that uniform more than they do their country. They'll don that uniform as a way to pump their misguided egos and then disgrace it by acting like degenerated rejects of humanity.
Well said.
Mr wold class
As a retired soldier I agree that some of the soldiers in the military today are promoted way to soon, When I was in the army it took about 5= years to become an NCO, when I retired it was taking about 14-18 months and how does anyone get the experience, training and personal responsibility to guide the live's of fellow soldiers in combat with out becoming an egotistical leader with that happening to them? I'm not condoning what happened but the military is training that ego into them. How else would any soldier want to go and have someone shooting at them daily without that ego?
SGT Hardman,
while I agree that promotions are happening way too quick, what really gets my goat is the lack of Senior Leadership. The Battalion Commander and Sergeants major NEED to get out of the TOCand get out with the troops. Senior NCOs have forgotten what the Germans call Feldwebel. Field wives. These people are supposed to take care of the troops. Educate, train and maintain standards. Being a leader is not a popularity contest, it is about doing the right thing and taking care of the troops.
The troops with fight to the death if they know that the person on their left and right give a damn about them. It has nothing to do with ego and everything to do with careing for the troops.
Mr. Worldclass are you one of those uneducated soldiers to which you speak? I too was in the Military and resent your description, just as in civilian life there are intelligent and not so intelligent people so quit your generalizations.
sgthardman - Doubtful. I agree that a lot of "leaders" in the Army are horrendously underqualified, but 36 months time in service is required for promotion to an E-5, unless they are especially high-speed and get chosen for a secondary zone promotion - but that's still a minimum of 14 months TIS, including 4 months TIG as an E-4. Most of the time, there are way more men and women waiting for Sergeant slots than there are slots available.
That being said, your comments about ego are spot on. I am very often ashamed of how the servicemembers and veterans of my generation choose to behave.
Red bull wife
as stated the correct time in grade is 36 months you can be promoted faster than that and then go in front of the board at the correct time frame. I know of several NCO's that went to PLDC, ANOC,BNOC several years after they were promoted to the grade that those classes were needed for
The age of the solider has nothing to do with it, its the maturity of the solider. My brother is on his 4th tour now and is only 27. His 1 tour was when he was 20. He was commended for saving his superiors rear in that 1st tour. But he was also more mature and had more insight than his superiors. Yes some are promoted way too soon and others who earn the promotion are over looked because they are not in the good buddy system that seems to be taking over our bases at home. My husband joined the Air force in 98 and is still only a SSGT. He has met every requirement asked of him with the promise of TSGT for 4 years now, and his sup is a jerk that refuses to put him in for rank. Yet 6 people have put on Tech in the last year that have only been in the service as long as my husband has been QUALIFIED for TSGT. In today's military, on several bases you get promoted by knowing whose rear to kiss not by what you know or what you have done to earn it. My family IS the younger generation of the military and they are appalled at the actions of their superiors just as much as they are at the actions of some of their own generation. Age has nothing to do with it. My sister and her husband have seen it in the Navy, my brother in the marines, my younger brother and my oldest sister in the Army, and my husband in Air Force. No branch is safe from these types of politics and immaturity.
All you ignorant people make me sick. All of you seem to forget that an innocent man was murdered, whether he be military or civilian. His murderers deserve the same punishment as anybody else. This is not the place to air your stupidity and opinions that don't matter to his family.
Humans are sick
Comment # 6 deleted, race derail.
The story gives very little information. Was Chen firing at the other soldiers?
.
Do you think if he had shot at them, the article might have mentioned it? Come on. Conjecture much? You should work for CNN or Fox with your skills for making up BS hypothesis' and disseminating them as though, "well, it just might be true."
JK You asked if Chen was firing at the other soldiers? I am sure he planned a sniper attack on the eight and it went wrong and he only sent all those letters home to his family about how distrought he was about being harrassed all the time in case he were to be charged with killing the eight as a insanity defense. JK do you get any of the sarcasm there? Maybe that went over your head just as much as the newstory did.
JK You asked if Chen was firing at the other soldiers? I am sure he planned a sniper attack on the eight and it went wrong and he only sent all those letters home to his family about how distrought he was about being harrassed all the time in case he were to be charged with killing the eight as a insanity defense. JK do you get any of the sarcasm there? Maybe that went over your head just as much as the newstory did.
I agree MSNBC does not report information very well, but it's easy to glance over. NYT has more details. The superiors had physically harassed, targeted and abused chen:
I would wager to guess they wouldn't have been charged if this was in self-defense... I'm also guessing that they wouldn't have left his body in a guard tower to be discovered by someone else. Bullies are the first to scream when someone retaliates.
These men disgraced their uniforms. If found guilty, they should to pay dearly for it... even if they didn't pull the trigger.
The story now gives much better information about this tragic event. This morning it was simply stated that Chen had been shot and eight soldiers were being charged. Now looks like it was a suicide. (Didn't mean to agitate Joe Cool and No Alias with my question - shame I couldn't have just contacted them for more information, they obviously knew all the details way before I posted the comment.)
While the listing of charges is interesting, it doesn't tell us what really happened. They killed him and made it look like suicide? Why?
I didn't see any murder charges. You are making assumptions. If they killed him, they would have been charged with murder, not negligent homicide. Also, what happen to all you good liberals that say innocent until proven guilty. I guess you only assume they are guilty when it is someone you don't like.
Negligent homicide is a type of homicide,which is another way to say murder...I love it when people correct others but need to be corrected themselves..
Let me guess AL-524682 you are a republican or so-called independent and you want anybody but Obama to be president ?
AL so you do like people that torture someome because of their race,creed or socio-economic background? Your racism is leaking through...And you wonder why we think alot on the right are racists ? It is because comments like yours come from the right 99% of the time....And defense of minorities comes from the right 1% of the time........
The article does not say they killed him and made it look like suicide. It says it is unknown if he took his life or if he was killed. If he did kill himself then they should not be charged for his death. I do not agree with the way they were harassing him because he was out there figthing for this country just like they were and they should be punished for that. Look how many kids and people are harassed and bullied everyday and nothing is done about it. Other people have taken their own lives for the same reason and no one was every charged for murder for that. People who takes their own lives obviously have problems and are very weak and have no self-esteem, but it is them who actually took their own life. It's not right if everyone who got picked on killed themselves and blamed someone else for it. People who get picked on need somekind of counseling or classes to help them through it and to help them understand that there are ways to deal with it and they need to be boosted up in their self-confidence. Bottom line is we do not know what all the facts are in this case. We are just reading what the media wrote, which these days you can't believe much what you hear from them-all you hear is what they want you to and what they believe. If these soldiers did pull the trigger then they should be charged and if they didn't then they shouldn't be charged and should be punished through the military for their harassing him.
One of the elements of Article 134 for Negligent Homicide is
That the killing by the accused was unlawful
and "killing by the accused" is a certain indicator to me that those charged with Negligent Homicide are considered to have been present when Chen was killed and that one of them pulled the trigger.
Another element of the crime is that
That the act or failure to act of the accused which caused the death amounted to simple negligence
and that seems to perhaps point to something like "he didn't know the gun was loaded" (a total BS defense for a member of the military trained in how to handle firearms) or "I accidentally pulled the trigger while trying to scare him" (similarly a BS defense).
It would seem that what the Army doesn't feel convinced that they can prove is that the group sat down before hand and planned exactly how to kill Chen.
BTW, if my reference is correct, maximum penalty for Negligent Homicide under the UCMJ is pretty much a dishonorable discharge (tough to get jobs later with that laying around) and 3 years prison time. Of course, time piles up with all the other charges if applied consecutively which I think would be most appropriate.
The alleged conduct and actions of the 8, and any others who closed their eyes to the whole mess is simply inexcusable, indefensible and deserving of the harshest punishment allowed.
RIP Private Chen, my thanks to you for your ultimate sacrifice in the defense of our country and my sincerest condolences to your family and loved ones.
MSgt, USAF (Retired)
Why is it everything always turned in a republican or democrat thing. People have the right to affiliate themselves with whatevery party they feel suits themself. Just because one or the other party does not believe in what you believe in does not make you better than the other person. You democrats act as if someone is a republican than they should be dead or or not exist. They have a RIGHT to stand up for their beliefs just as dems do. What does republican or democrat have to do with the fact that someone is dead morons!
Actually sw philly, there is a difference between murder and negligent homicide. Murder is when you kill someone and negligent homicide is when your actions lead to or cause someone's death. For example, if someone shot you, that's murder. However, if your mechanic was drunk when he fixed your car and as a result, your brakes failed and you died, that's negligent homicide. Get it?
So to answer your question, randy, yes, when these soldiers get court martialed, if it is found that their actions led to his death (even if he committed suicide), then they may very well be found guilty of negligent homicide, whether or not they pulled the trigger.
Don't count on this being cover up. It is out there and to many high ranking men are being charge. I look for some very stiff sentence come out of this. I was in the army long ago and then we had this kind of thing happening and it was not cover up. God Bless our men and women in uniform Only two people have died for us, Jesus and the American GI.
Actually negligent homicide is used in cases where the failure to do something caused the death. It's used in the civilian world when someone fails to use good judgement and their actions result in someone's death, like driving under the influence of perscription drugs when they didn't know how they would be affected and causing an accident that kills someone (illegal drugs get vehicular homicide.) Potentially they could have been aware he was going to kill himself and did nothing, or taunted him further. They themselves didn't pull the trigger but they did nothing to stop it. That's my interpretation anyway. We may never know what really happened. May he rest in peace.
Seabee, and law student
Goes both ways. I don't know how many times I've been told by a Republican that I'm crazy for voting Democrat. Don't I have a right to stand up for my beliefs just as the republican does? I vote for who I believe is going to do the best job for this country not by the title of Democrat or Republican. I can't tell you how many people I've ran into who just vote for the title and not really care what the beliefs are of that person they are voting for. Ignorance!
Carrie...Now you know why I'm no longer a Republican. I got soooo fed up with hearing only male voices at those Republican Committee meetings. I was beginning to believe the Republican Party was some kind of good ole bois club where women were allowed to be seen but never heard. The sad thing is that kind of male supremacy ignores the brilliance of some of the finest Republican women of today: Snowe, Collins and Bailey Richardson. All of whom are kept in the dark for harpies like Bachmann and Palin.
It's not your imagination that stifling the voices of the people is exactly what today's Republican party is all about.
SW PHILLY
You should not talk about correcting others when you don’t even know what your talking about. Here is some education for you and your big mouth.
Murder = Intent, you did something knowing your direct actions could or would cause death (I take my gun and shoot you) MURDER
Negligent Homicide = No Intent, your Action or Inaction caused the death of someone and a reasonable person should have known the action could have caused death. (Standing by while someone is killed and not doing anything to stop it) Negligent Homicide
ewent, you bring up high ranking women in the party which pretty much blows your ridiculous argument out the window, at least I know where all the hot air is.
wlee...Calling your bluff...Respecting Republican women who deserve respect blows an argument out of the window how? Yeesh...have Americans become that dumbed down that to respect intelligence means it has to be partisan first? I know where the hot air is...and the gas bags need a cork. If they are so high ranking, why is Bachmann out there for president?
Please don't try to tell a former Republican what the Republican back room agenda is. There is not now nor will there ever be a highly intelligent Republican woman who will ever be allowed to run for President. Look at the vicious slash and burn done to Hillary Clinton by Republicans. God the help the Republican woman who would even dare to attempt a presidential run.
Every lily livered Mama's boi in the GOP would go apoplectic.
Seriously WTF? This is crazy. The military has been forced to lower its standards and this is the result.
ewent, no bluff going off of what you said perhaps you need to re-read your comment. Bachmann is on the Intelligence Committee, several Congresswomen and Governors. BTW Hillary was thrashed by the Democrats as well stop the spin, and I seem to recall the Liberals trashing all Republican women you being one of them.
Military Law 101:
An authorizing authority (usually the unit commander) has the responsibility to investigate any potential violations of UCMJ code. After the investigation is completed, if they find they have evidence to prove that there have been violations, charges are preferred and the preferring authority assigns their JAG liaison (The Army's legal branch, most units have a JAG liaison attached to help the soldiers attached to that unit with legal matters) as Trial Counsel (prosecutor.) At that time they give the TC everything they have and petition the Army superiors to convene a court-martial.
There is a recorded, verifiably reported incident of Private Chen being found beaten with bruises all over after he was dragged out of bed in the middle of the night by superiors for 'failing to turn off the water heater after a shower'. I don't know what was done by the unit commander after that incident but I suspect that the six superiors charged with Article 93, 'maltreatment'-- VanBockel, Holcomb, Hurst, Curtis, Offut, and Carden--are the ones involved in that incident, which is clearly maltreatment because it does NOT require FOUR sergeants and two Specialists to discipline ONE private for failure to pay attention to detail.
The punishment for failing to turn off the water heater should have resulted in mess hall cleanup detail or extra duty/chores, or if the Staff Sergeant was having bad day, extra PT (physical training). If Private Chen was beaten after this minor incident it is clearly a violation of Articles 93, 128, and 134.The only ones who should have been involved in that incident should have been Private Chen and Staff Sergeant VanBockel.
If this is a repeated pattern of abuse and not an isolated incident (hard to say; Private Chen reportedly kept a journal but the Army has retained it and only 3 pages have been released to Private Chen's family) then a case could be made for Articles 134 specifications titled reckless endangerment/negligent homicide, and Article 119, involuntary manslaughter.
VanBockel, Holcomb, Hurst, Curtis, Offut, and Carden will most likely face a specified amount of time in military prison (up to 20 years) total forfeiture of all pay, and a dishonorable discharge or Bad Conduct discharge at the end of it. Dugas will likely serve time in military jail and be given a dishonorable discharge at the end of it; Schwartz is most likely to serve a few months in military jail and broken back down to Private with total forfeiture of all pay.
Wow some normal white americans?
Psssssst, Apache1, you may want to check, your racism is showing.
Not normal white Americans... people who give normal white Americans (and their uniform) a bad name. If the charges are accurate, I think what these soldiers did is disgusting and I would be ashamed to be grouped with them.
Gee I wasn't aware the article said eight Caucasian soldiers, can we at least determine that before we convict.
wlee...If you check the number of incidences of bias crimes related to race, are you implying that more of them are committed by blacks than whites? That shoots that argument down pretty quick. Bias crimes, the majority of time in US history, have always been relegated to whites attempting to keep minorities in check.
ewent,Wow jump to conclusions much, where in my comment did I say that ,could it be that I was implying that maybe not all the soldiers were white .
No need to worry wlee, ewent is a very very very angry woman.
As a former army veteran, that is really sick. If found guilty, these individuals need to be punished to the limits of the law. What has gotten into people lately?
I don't think it's "lately", BigBaldGuy, I think it might just be one event that's finally gotten media attention. There've always been bullies, it just hasn't come to light all that often.
Comment # 12 deleted, political derail.
Thank you Sally for moderating this. As for my On-topic Post:
Bullying has never gone away, there is injustice and hatred everywhere, you can read about it practically everyday with a new story to tell.
Danny, may you rest in peace. I pray your family will find some comfort in this.
Are we training homicidal maniacs to return and menace their community? Obviously psych exams are not used in the desperate search for gung ho gun toatters.
Of course we are, and we're supposed to call them heroes.
Most are and besides SirTrollington what have you done to serve your country and not just make sarcastic remarks about those who risk their lives for you.
.....And then bring them home to be employed as police officers whom prey on our communities as if we were combatants without protection of constitutional right.
Sir A Hole,
99% of them are hero's! Go take a trip or 4 to the sandbox to see what it is like. Chicke@!$%#!
Hey Jamie,
Spoken like a true victim! BOO HOO!
hey trollington (you don't deserve Sir in front... Don't be blaming the the very people that continue to fight for your very freedoms that allow you to make stupid comments.... Most of these men and women coming home are Hero's. You remind me of someone i know that likes to group all into one for the stupidity of one or a few.. Just because something this horrible happened doesn't mean that all military people are that way or would do something so terrible. I know you didn't serve this country. You are one of those that like to use your freedoms to condemn the ones that risk their lives to give you that right... Yes I did serve my country as a US Navy Seabee/Seal and i'm am very proud of it.
This young man's death is an extreme case and not the norm! Anyone who assumes that the military is creating homicidal maniacs is just downright ignorant of what the military stands for and what its job is... protecting us from foreign and domestic terrorists. Apparently you've never been in the military nor have associations with those who've served else you'd know better than to make such a stupid statement! It's truly sad that this young man is dead - possibly due to irresponsible behavior or murder by those who are supposed to be protecting him and this country. The military court will get to the truth and be assured that if the facts prove their responsibily or complicity in this young man's death, they will pay the price and they should! To put all military in one basket is irresponsible as it's irresponsible and ignorant to say all "anybodies" are thieves and murderers. But, let's withhold judgement until all the facts are in! My husband was harrassed by his drill sargeant because he happened to be from Arkansas! But, my man is still alive to tell the story, the drill sargeant killed himself a few years ago! So there ya go!
Wow - just wow. This thread is like so many others - way too many people creating opportunities to torch each other. A discussion of the death of a young soldier may play out in a broad range of scenarios: bullying or harassment, suicide or murder, racism, macho bravado - not unlike our headlines around the country - and those of far too many postings here. While very few comments are thoughtful and temperate, too, too many others are callous and rude, shameful, despicable, condescending and cruel and intended to harass others - bully others - intimidate others. How do you speak poorly of anyone? How do you judge anyone? How do you convince anyone you have any valid opinion when it's drenched in only your egos and hate? You can't. You can't, gentlemen.
Together we can do much. Divided we are defeated. Peace.
HMS, are you serious? Lets look at facts how many servicemen are killed by fellow servicemen? now how many civilians are killed by fellow civilians? The Military is made up of people like you and me, where do you think these guys come from? Sir Troll, these guys volunteer during war time knowing they could be in combat risking their lives for people like you to make cowardly judgements. Your respect is not asked nor needed.
Snook ... you know how hard the training is for the teams ... and why.
But more so you are correct in your views...but trying to reason with a public that has paid to have a professional or mercenary army because they are poor citizens, plain scared or more likely cowards - forget it Snook.
Until we bring back the draft and all Americans earn the right to be called Americans, we will never impress on them how precious life is to soldiers and what real comradry and team work is and not the kind of rot on sports TV.
Retired, I still remember the teams ... I was a young door guner back then with 1 1/2 years of vollege before I voluteered for that surrealistic place ... and after 25 years of enlisted and officer service were up at my own chosing, I still see those place without names, those faces with last names only, and those who never came home alive due to either the enemy or their buddies' screw ups. But every day no matter what we went on the next mission...I wish I was this young man's skipper as he would have had the opportunity of kicking the biggest loser in this sorry lot's butt after morning formation while my Top took care of the other losers in a rather distasteful but militarily correct manner.
Traing failed Chen ... his squad failed Chen ... his leaders or lack of failed Chen .... but most of all, he failed Chen. Taking of one' s own life is the most cowardly thing of all to do, as it is not only damning to one's soul, but to one's family and friends. How he got through boot camp at all is a mystery that needs exploring so antoher Chen does not meet the same sorry end as this young man.
Psych evals need to be used on the public that shuns their duties as soldiers as well as citizens as America is in a far greater mess than Afghanistan..they have no country or ever had...we have one and you citizens out there are throwing it away on a whim.
The real pysch evaluations needed are for a public that takes from thei nation, but gives little back but this apparent lip service. Until one is out there, you have no idea what real fighting is like save the freaks you worship on your block or on TV.
While you prey on each other, I and my former and active comrades will pray for those still out there with far greater problems to face daily than a group of uncontrolled little boys playing soldier.
When will the senior leadership be held accountable in the today's Army...they may be Army strong, but morally and mentally weak.
No ... you have enough maniacs back here toting drugs, guns, murdering children and families, and attacking God and this nation's very core values...maybe having them return is a good thing...then we can clean up the mess you have made back here...same as in the 'Nam...the rules only apply to real Americans and not the sorry mob with no patriotism, moral fiber or personal courage.
Jamie Norwood ... how little you truly know of the present adminsitration actions that will attack your rights and perhaps very life...why do you think they revised the Urban Warfare manual last year...to protect us from terrorists or a public growing tired of lies, corruption and the financial and moral bankrupty of our country. While we were out there fighting, you were back here partying...thansk for the payback of electing the biggest community and leftist activist of our history, and letting those with Aids walk among us especially when we need to activate the Walking Blood Bank on the battlefield...I hoep you all take transfusions from those who were forced on us out there...your immorality and ignorance condemns us to death.
The irony of this is that the 25th's home station, Schofield Barracks, is located in one of the most racially diverse towns on Oahu, Wahiawa. This area is mostly populated with Asian Americans, as well as Asian pacific immigrants.
I can't believe the hatred some of you people have for the people who volunteer to protect us. Especially you who don't have the balls to join yourselves. Yes, I enlisted during vietnam, so you don't need to ask me!
I have a friend whose brother enlisted, he came back from iraq minus both legs and an arm. He's a better man than you chickensh!ts are!!!!!
Tim - I don't see any hatred in his statement. Not sure where your rant is coming from. I know a lot of guys with the 25th ID, I was with the 2-6 Cav. and they are nothing like these POS excuses here. They should be hit with the fullest extent of UCMJ, hold nothing back when punishing them.
John Doe/ I dont think he was talking about Viking's comment. I think he meant the overall comments made by so many on here
Hey Viking, that's an interesting point; I almost missed it. I was stationed at Schofield Barracks back in the 80's. What we encountered there at that time was racism and violence from the local Hawaiian population. They had their names for us, like hauli (sp?), and would not hesitate to have 5 or 6 of them jump on and beat the crap out of a lone, 150 lb. white kid in the military trying to serve his country. They would attack black soldiers, too. Asians not so often, but there were still examples. The thing about it is this:
Racism = Antiquated Social Stupidity (A.S.S.)
If a person has a bad case of the A.S.S., there's not a lot you can do for them, especially if they're already in their 20's or more. By then, their head is already so far in their A.S.S. that there's little you can do to pull it out. Just say a little prayer for them, that God will help them with their ailing A.S.S., and leave it in His hands. You can't "cure" a mentally ill person by explaining to them that they're nuts, and you can't cure racism by telling a racist why it's stupid. Nor will it do any good to believe we can extinguish racism through legislation, any more than we can eliminate people driving like idiots because we pass traffic laws. All anti-racism laws do is suppress a problem that needs to be examined and resolved (to the extent possible) and provide a legal mandate that carries penalties for violators.
My heart goes out to Danny's family in their time of pain, and I pray that God gives them comfort. It is important that the facts be revealed in this case before they can find closure and peace. As I read these many comments, I find a lot of resentment and even outright hatred for our military. What you poor, misguided fools need to realize is that the only reason you have the privilege of planting your whiny little butts down in front of your computer and ranting your little rants is because soldiers have fought, bled, and died to make sure you could do it. Danny Chen, we will discover as time reveals the truth, was a suicide. His letters home demonstrate his mental state (self-perceived isolationism, racial victim, despair, etc.) and his inability to deal with his depressed state of mind is what led him to end his life. People experience racism every day, regardless of their race. They don't kill themselves. People who commit suicide usually have more going on than someone teasing them about their ethnicity or race.
The article provides us with a good example. In one of Danny's letters, he states that everyone calls him "Chen", rather than by his first name. WE CALL EVERYONE BY THEIR LAST NAME IN THE MILITARY!!!! It's sewn onto our uniforms, for crying out loud! Heck, sometimes my own wife calls me by my last name. If Danny had not been (mentally) in a place of self-pity and depression/despair, he would have noticed that everybody called each other by their last names. Danny connected his ethnicity to his last name and his sensitivity equated it to racism. It will come out during the investigation, no doubt. And of course, if any of today's anti-military ranters even keep up with Danny's case (which is not likely because today's ranters don't give a crap about Danny, just the opportunity his death gives them to spew out a rant or two), they will just post a new rant about how the military protects its own, blah-blah-blah, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.
By far the best post on this vine, Mr. Dumpling. What gets me is all of the instantaneous judgment made by a majority of the posters here.
Unless you were there, or are privy to details uncovered by the investigation, you really don't know enough to be condemning anybody at this point. I sincerely hope I never find myself in a position to be judged. I'm sure I would be hanged, gutted, and quartered in the public square without a trial or any benefit of doubt.
Odb2 is just more of the same ... from those who say the most but do and have sacrificed the least..stay home, loser.
The Gunny and Dumpling are closer to the real truth than the little liberal rats claiming to know what life and death and military life is like where every day you stay alive was a good day...one day at a time. When they clean up America's crime, then I will listen to these college-knowledge types, throw-backs to the same losing stock of my Vietnam era - COWARDS ALL!!!
I for one sided with the troops accused until some UCMJ based facts came out...hazing is not a crime and is part of being a man let alone a soldier...we are merciful but the enemy is never.
But now that the accusations range in physical abuse, despite the fact that I or any man would have taken a few of these little boys down any way I could have to defend myself, let the military have at them. The sad truth be known is that again the Army will not punish the real culprits here - the leadership. Sorry to say the senior NCos and Officers are a product of PC and not of honor and duty and Code of Conduct ... the public produced these types and now the effects of their miserable upbringing and schooling and values is manifested in this case, again stemming from a lack of leadership up front and not behind playing with laptops and presentations for the officers in the rear end, quite literally.
Not one officer under the rank of Colonel should ever be in the rear, but leading from the front with his or her troops. When they fail, he or she should take the responsibility; but when they succeeed, it is the troops that should get the praise. Being an officer is not about your personal gain or career - those things come from deeds and success of your men and women...your reward is to lead these wonderful Americans into battle anytime, any place and against any enemy. The tursy placed in you to train, protect and lead them is the only reward you will have after service or retirement - a memory...and nothing more.
If these little boys did physically attack Chen, then hard labor is the max they should incur unless they directly killed him. But the leadership and their careers should end next month with dishonorable discharges for failing to do their duty as tradition, not their personal, political or senior leadership perference dictates. No one said a leader has to be popular, just respected; loved or fear is in the eye of the beholder only.
This is very sad, and I must admit that it angers me a great deal. Investigate and prosecute as military law allows. My sympathies and prayers go out to the family of Private Danny Chen. Rest in peace Danny.
Agreed, *freedom*. What a heart breaking event to try and understand for some of us readers; I can't imagine what the Chen Family and their friends must be going through. How does an American family wrap their mind around the concept that their own child enlisted to serve his country and then became not a casualty of war but a murder victim at the hands of his own??? I'm so sorry for this family. Prayers and condolences and thank you Danny for your service.
was this published because he was a US soldier? what about the other war crimes?
it was published because it's news. If you want to read about other war crimes you'll have to browse the internet a little. Good hunting.
We would the have to look at the Bush administration and that is a NO NO!!!
Off the topic, but why the @#$% would you look at the Bush admin for war crimes? So, are you some kind of terrorist sympathizer? Should we slap those miscreants who want to see us dead and wiped off the face of the earth on the wrist and give them a Twinkie and send them home! We need to look back to WWII that was ended with two bombs - now Truman had b@##s! A couple of well-placed nuks would end this business in Afghanistan and bring our troops home! Those people are truly ingrats!
go ahead and you will have world war 3- one example does not fit another! The lets just nuke them argument is not only inappropiate but mind- numbingly moronic! youre the ingrat here!!!!
"Nuke 'em" the post for people without the time or the wit to think.
Army strong. Hoo-ahh...
Army Strong???? What an undisiplined group of wanna b's!!!!! Got your stress card?????
Does anyone write complete stories in this age of internet and short attention spans? What about the circumstances that make it look like murder? What were some validated or witnessed events of harassment? Did any of those charged have priors? Geesh.
Unfortunately this does act as a reminder that not everyone who volunteers or wears a uniform does so for noble reasons - whether it be cops, a volunteer fireman, or a serviceman. Like every occupation, there are a-holes who are in it for a power trip or desperation for lack of anything else to do, and the risks involved are of little consideration. Our country goes a little overboard on hero worship, and some of these clowns don't deserve it and let it go to their heads. I am just envisioning a bunch of frustrated muscle heads picking on the "Chinese guy", even though he's as American as they were - and most likely a better example too. My condolences to his family, and props to those serving the country with integrity.
Mike N, I have a question for you to consider, and please do not misconstrue this as a personal attack or me picking on you, because I'm not. (If I was, I would say so.)
You state that you are "just envisioning a bunch of muscle heads picking on the "Chinese guy"". What led you to this perception? The only thing you know about Danny Chen's story is what you just read in this MSNBC article. MSNBC is a leftist propaganda outlet. Had this article been written without the leftist distortion, you might have come away with a more neutral, and hence more accurate, vision. Do not let yourself be so easily manipulated, my friend.
I don't know if you have ever been in the military, but let me speak plainly as one who has. The first thing I noticed as I read this article was the ranks of the accused. It jumped off the screen at me. I'll not say that there has never, never, never, ever, ever been a case of racism from an Army officer. But I will say it is EXTREMELY rare for an Army officer in modern times to allow himself to openly express any latent racial bias he may have. They are too aware of the scrutiny that is upon them as officers, too aware of the disgrace to their honor as an officer should they exhibit racism. There were also senior NCO's listed among those charged. Same thing. So what MSNBC would have us believe is that everyone in Danny's unit, including officers and NCO's alike, was a gang of racists and bullies who specialized in hating those with Asian ethnicity. I'll tell you what DOES happen frequently in the military, though. If a member of a unit is perceived as being a "weak link" in the team, they may very well be the target of banter that is intended to get them to toughen up mentally, kind of a verbal Basic Training. It generally is not done with malice, though. It is meant to provide the recipient with an opportunity to fight back verbally, developing their character and mental strength.
What I see from reading between the lines of this leftist biased article is that Danny was very weak and vulnerable mentally. His letters home were complaints about his misery, how unhappy he was, how everyone was picking on him. Are the black guys in Danny's unit writing letters home about how the officers, NCO's, and GI's are picking on them? Are the hispanics writing home whining about how everyone calls them by their last name? Is anyone else committing suicide in that unit from all the racial oppression? Nope. Mike, if some hack at MSNBC can spin an event into a leftist propaganda article and get you to swallow, you're letting him punk you. Have a little self-respect, man, and for Pete's sake don't kill yourself because a guy named Mr. Dumpling was picking on you.
Mr. Dumpling - what you just wrote pretty much helped bolster the image in my head of a bunch of guys picking on some lone dude to 'toughen him up". Personally I feel that is a BS position to justify bullying as a group. The original article I replied to implied those soldiers were being charged in a homicide - like THEY shot him or something, not hazed him to death. It's got nothing to do with leftist spin, propaganda or anything that paranoid. Gee, maybe he looked vulnerable because the guys who were SUPPOSED to have his back taunted the living sh** out of him, targeting his ethnicity. So much for intelligence or professionalism there. No excuse for it.
BTW - I've had a cowboy cop-kid write up COMPLETELY bogus traffic charges on me and taunt me in the courtroom. His testimony and his partner's (who wasn't even there) was so full of lies the judge let me walk - and correctly so. It happens.
Mr. Dumpling,
Perhaps you don't realize that your words are only reinforcing the perception which most of us carry away from this article. If you really WERE in the military you would not speak so proudly about the kind of bullying which goes on there because that kind of behaviour pulls the unit apart instead of binding it together.
What branch of the miltary would you like us to believe that you served in? The Marine Corps? The Army Rangers? The Navy Seals? And of course you saw lots of combat, correct?
Forgive me, but I don't believe that anyone who speaks as you do ever saw the military up close in real life.
JK-4363698 - are you a moron? Do you see anywhere in this article where it says that he was shooting back at people? No, the whole article is once again about racism and once again, it is the Army. There is not enough punishment and not enough enforcement of the rules concerning racism, sexism etc and I firmly believe it is because of the "old guard" of the Army. Men that should have been long gone who are still in power. This happens way more often than it should. As they say, "S... rolls downhill" and their thoughts whether subtle or not roll with them. Here is a guy who doesn't look like everybody white does and oh look, let's pick on him, let's make his life miserable...oh and as a caveat, let's kill him too...that will really make the point. Leavenworth is where these boys belong. Shame....My condolences to the family. I am so sorry.
I was in the Army briefly back in 2000, but luckily managed to get the F' out for medical reasons. I was in the Infantry, which is pretty much the dumbest group of people that you can possibly meet in the Army. (I took the gig for the best signing bonus, which is a mistake) I can totally see this happening. Anyone who's an outsider is constantly made fun of. I thought I was in junior high again, even though I was 22. Poor guy.
Being a veteran of the Viet Nam it really upsets me that this could happen. If the soldiers are found guilty I think they need to be dealt with severly. The act of killing one's own is the worst crime that can happen in the Military.
Semper Fi private Chen.
Code Red
chen killed himself, but they are blaming the hazing for making him do it.
Jim
You say you a Vet in Vietnam? You should have known that a lot of people were killed due to "Friendly" fire. So it should not really upset you..
jim-3728784:
I strongly doubt you are a vet of the Vietnam War because had you been, you would have seen enough racism in the enlisted ranks to last you ten life-times and I can guarantee you, it was a lot worse then, than now. I'm sixty one years old and I remember, and could tell you things that would rock your boat so hard you'd feel like Katrina was on your back.
paragus: So you're suggesting that because it's been happening since the Viet Nam years, we should all become hardened and unaffected by a hateful crime?
Bob, do you think it's possible that maybe in Jim's unit there wasn't any. I served in the Navy during the Vietnam conflict towards the end of it Stateside and didn't experience any.
what is wrong with people?
Duh… they are people taught to hate by their parents, and grandparents, and the Church.
I've never heard of a chucrh that teaches hate. Maybe you can tell me so I can see for myself. Or are you just running your mouth?
Does intolerance of other religions count as hate? All churches teach that their way is the only true way - and that, to me at least, is the same as teaching intolerance and intolerance is most definitely the path to hatred. Example: see extreme Muslim activities over the past decade.
I didn't say all churches go to such extremes or that all church members of any faith are extremists. But they all go to great length to convert as many as possible to their "one true" faith. Numerous groups knock on my door every year trying to convert me, including Baptists, Methodists, Latter Day Saints (Mormons), etc. About the only ones I don't recall knocking on the door would be Muslims and Catholics, but their conviction with regard to being the "one true" faith is no less than the others.
At least the Constitution and Bill of Rights does guarantee freedom of religion and most Americans of whatever faith do follow those rather than the strict doctrine and dogma of their church.
They're human. That's what's wrong with them. As capable of such atrocities as they are great deeds.
Truer statement never made Ezrz M.......human! It is human nature (natural) not learned to be a bigot or racist....though it can be magnified by the association with other humans. An actual study found that 6 year olds would pick on the race that was differrent to their own in a group setting of 1 to 20 ratio REGARDLESS as to what race was the minority. And it is no differrent in "religions" (man's search for GOD). ....."the road is narrow that leads...." you all know the rest of the verse, but most hearts are hardened with arrogance and pride to be able to divide the word....Watchman on the Wall
Westboro -- they not only teach hate, they're proud of it.
Jesus didn't teach hate man did.
Hey, PackinP40, for starters I would recommend you sit in on one of Jeremiah Wright's sermons. From there you could spend an afternoon with Louis Farrakhan, then maybe hop a flight to the middle-east where you could hang a big honkin' cross around your neck, then walk into a mosque and ask the friendly folks inside what time communion starts. Let me know how your day goes.
The military has often been one of the first places in US society to break racial barriers - because you don't have the time or inclination to get picky about skin color when you're being shot at.
The officer and NCOs involved should be mortally ashamed of themselves. This young man was little more than child - 19! I hope they're prosecuted to the furtherest extent of the UCMJ.
I wonder why we didn't hear anything about the harassment until after the fact. Did he not go to the authorities before? Why wasn't there something done about it before it led to the death of this young man? How much more of this sh!t is going on that we don't know about? Very sad especially now that they are coming home plus being the holiday season. Thank you Private Chen for your service.
I imagine we would have never heard about harrassment without the death bringing the whole thing to light. I don't think the military would bring these kind of charges unless they are pretty sure what happened. So if in fact they are guilty, I hope they see this young mans face the first thing when they wake up and the last thing before they go to sleep, if, of course, they have any kind of conscience at all.
did you read the article?? In one of his letters home he said "he was in from being harassed by his comrades and superiors" . Who would he have gone to? Turns my stomach.
ragtopz, everyone in the military has someone above them. It is called the Chain of Command and it goes from E-0 to the Commander-in-Chief.
How does that song go .....United we stand ..... not in this case. Just because one is in the military and it's a "brotherhood/sisterhood" - don't get it twisted. You can't throw a life-time of ignorance away. I hope these guys get exactly what they deserve. How sad it is to want to serve ones country and still have to deal with hatred from your own countrymen?! No one had Pvt. Chen's back. RIP
oK, SO, the army has found their scapegoats for chen's death.
because chen said the other guys were teasing him about being chinese, chen committed suicide.
now the army is taking chen's word for it, and charging the other soldiers with "neglegent homicide".
sounds like a crock of sh*t if you ask me.
chumbkt, Tell you what - go enlist. If you are fit enough. Then check everywhere and see if any racism or hazing is going on. Then report to your local media. Who knows - you might get introduced to the power of a frag grenade.
Army of one become an Army of eight that hated and murdered their own. Hope they rot in jail for life.
Chump(bkt), you are no doubt the a$$hole you sound like.... probably a cowardly bully too. You sound like a crock of your own s---.
@ Chumbkt,........... psssst " hey" but nobody asked you. have a good day now!
chumbkt, there is obviously more info then we know, like maybe witnesses , it wouldn't get this far if there wasn't more.
Just proves that this form of bullying is'nt limited to schools.Very sad,my condolences to the Chen family.
When I was in the Air Force I got the impression it was a college campus without the classes, just the testosterone. Several people, even those in their 40's, hadn't grown up yet so your "school" comment is pretty close to the truth (at least as far as my experience.)
I am a retired U.S. Navy Yeoman with over twenty two years of service and share my sorrow in the loss not only of a son but a true American soldier representing our country. This hazing and ridiculas cullture thing really must come a halt and anyone guilty of it should and must be brought to trial and punished. Anyone who completes training in the Armed Forces of the United States and wears our uniform must be treated with respect and honor; regardless of race, color, religion etc. May God Bless the family and Merry CHRISTmas for the Lord has another great soldier by his side. God Bless America
Why did they call you Yeoman? Did the officers say, "Yo Man, get me some coffee?"
Anyway, Happy Hannukah and Kwanzaa to you.
Yeoman (n)
1. A petty officer in a navy, having chiefly clerical duties in the U.S. Navy
Your attempt at humor is sadly lacking Baldy.
And its Hanukkah.
There are knuckledraggers in all segements of society - the military is an extension of our society. It's too bad that we haven't evolved more than this. The same prejiduce has been around for many years and always will be. As a japanese-american growing up shortly after WWII; I've been exposed to these very small-brained people. The ignorant can only mess with your head if you let them; best to walk away and let them waller in their own stupidity and thank God everyday that you are not like them. And, when not able to walk away, expose them and the leaders that allow them to behave as they do.
What the hell is wrong with these men?! I'm sickened by this!! May you rest in peace Private Chen, may God bless your and your family. You did not deserve this.
It's just like some other organizations where people are thrown together in groups. Sometimes it's not just the obvious 'bully' who is at fault, often those who cooperate out of fear contribute far more to the overall 'bullying' than do the prime movers themselves. This form of behavior can, at times, even be found amongst those who are charged with the resposibility of preventing it.
In the military this can even sometimes include junior officers and NCO's such as first sergeants and troop commanders. I can recall one Air Force 1st lieutenant, a troop commander at Lincoln AFB in Lincoln, Nebraska, who did not like my background and made life into a holy hell for me over a period of two years. This individual had problems with several other young airmen as well as with himself and, as a result, finally got sent off to the Arctic as a punishment after one airman wrote to his senator and complained. At six foot two and one hundred and eighty pounds, I was much to big for any of his underlings ("piss-ants," we called them) to resort to physical abuse but they did just about everything else including the anonymous trashing of my barracks room on one occasion. I am told that other, smaller airmen, were confronted physically. Of course we had our own share of 'scum;' kids who'd been given the choice of "four years in the Air Force or four years in jail." One 'old man' of about forty who'd spent most of his life in the military was fond of saying: "You can't beat this life! Three squares and a flop!"
With such a mentality pervading our military is it any wonder that some quiet young men fall victim to physical abuse? Just read some of the comments written here by self-proclaimed 'military' types. What do you think?