..

@Charles: so a bunch of kids got in fights with each other, and you want severe punishment or something? exactly what did they do to your generation when kids got into fights with each other?

Eltex, I don't know what crowd you ran around with...but when we were young we didn't go around causing brawls in malls with families! Kept it in our own circles if we had issues to resolve. This crap is getting out of control and too random. I for one do want severe punishment! And you can go back and crawl under the rock you came from...

If they were stealing form shoppers and kiosks and were knocking people to the ground, they were punished. I'm sure some changed their ways after experiencing that punishment. Eltex has succumbed to the liberal way of thinking in that kids should not be punished for acting out.

The issue is the fight, the stealing and harrassing small kids and parents. The problem is that the youth of today doesn't fear punishment, OH I'm sorry we can't say No to people it's harressment and infringes on there rights. Our systems need to put fear of breaking the law into the kids, and as one said early if you have a beef woth some one that can't be talked out Take It OUTSIDE.

Amen, amen, amen

There is a big empty lot on Reynolds road in Toledo, Ohio were Southwyck Mall used to be. It is that way because no one took control and let the punks run the customers away. That was 20-25 years ago it started, not this generation but last.

Rubber bullets. That'll knock some sense into them....,

@eltex, I pulled crap like that when I was a kid, I would have caught at least 2 beatings, one from the cops and one from my old man. They should go back to those days, only trouble is parants today don't have any balls.

There is a big empty lot on Reynolds road in Toledo, Ohio were Southwyck Mall used to be. It is that way because no one took control and let the punks run the customers away. That was 20-25 years ago it started, not this generation but last.

I hate to break it to you guys but it isn't a lack of 'fear' of punishment from the system that will or would prevent this. You can make the penalties as extreme as you want. That just shows the weakness of a dying empire attempting to control the monsters it creates.

The issue is that the individuals fighting have no morality. Now, they are not immoral people. That would be too simple. Immoral people have to understand morality to be immoral. It's like knowing something is destructive or intrinsically wrong and then doing exactly that wrong thing. That stuff cultures and civilizations can survive.

These kids today are amoral. That's a whole other ball of wax. They have no concept of right or wrong. They do what they 'want', when they 'want'. That's the stuff that destroys nations.

Peteroido1, we would like severe punishment because it works for most people. You're stuck in that liberal fog. Right where the liberal leaders need there constituents to be as they tell us what to do while they do whatever they like. Millionaire congressmen and congresswomen of both parties just use the empty minded populace for their own gain.

too bad bernard goetz wasnt shopping

Lanikai: So the conservative way of giving them all guns and everyone is left dead is so much better!

NC "Bleeding Heart"

We are in this situation because of liberal bleeding hearts. The "spear the rod and spoil the child" idiom is very true.

It's been over the last 30 years as we coddled more and more to touchy feely thought processes that gang and child issues have become more and more of an issue.

Single mothers and lack of discipline have got us here. Don't blame the men only, women are as bad if not worse for our current situation.

Amen Brother.

we should go back to the good ol days when you didn't have to fear busting your kids butts. do it now and you may get the police called on you. plus we have kids having kids nowadays that obviously didn't get enough discipline, who don't discipline, and it shows. they don't care about the consequences cause there is none to em so they pull this stuff. so the motto of the day is "beat your kids!!"

@Peteroid01, I have to agree with Jayson1968. They way I'm reading his post, Eltex thinks it's ok for a bunch of punks to terrorize, injure and steal from people. It's not ok, in the least. Those were people out spending their hard-earned money buying gifts for their loved ones and a group of thugs does not have the right to push people or throw things at people and steal their things. It kind of makes me wonder if you are or were one of those punks. And, yes, they do need punished or they will keep doing things like that or worse. Maybe if they are punished now, they may learn something and not end up in prison in the next few years.

Cniht has it right. Failure to teach morals is the root of the issue. It is not a black or white issue but a cultural issue that has invaded every sector of our society. When there is no threat and no fear of punishment there is a moral void. Christians have long held that there is eternal judgement and damnation and in days past that was enough threat for most people to give it a second thought before they transgressed. Today even the most conservative Christian kids hear it coming from their friends that they are being duped and there is no God so there is no reason to fear. For a kid the source while flawed by adult standards is given greater credibility coming from their friends due to the need to fit in. Parenting is the only way to circumvent the message. If you do not talk to your children in a meaningful way every chance you get. If you don't question them about what they learned and listen to the answers and discuss the answers and when needed put your foot down when they spout off then you are just rolling the dice. Most will probably still turn out fine but you are more likely to be the one driving to the jail or cemetary wondering where you went wrong as a parent.

"Peteroido1, we would like severe punishment because it works for most people. You're stuck in that liberal fog. Right where the liberal leaders need there constituents to be as they tell us what to do while they do whatever they like. Millionaire congressmen and congresswomen of both parties just use the empty minded populace for their own gain."

not at all sure how ANYTHING i said has ANYTHING to do with liberal vs. GOP... or are you saying in your eye the GOP is the 'severe punishment' party?

I'm actually totally confused as to how your response has ANYTHING to do with my comment???

ok... here's a test... lift a quote from what i said and then explain how you derived from that that i'm in a 'liberal fog'...

ghezz whiz

tsa going into the mall of america in feb 2012,said some of the employees in november that leaked the info.and then this happened

this smells like a staged event,to have tsa go into every mall

NC, are you serious? I am not trying to defend some of the exaggerations posted by some, but to try a philosophical analysis about this is too much, don't you think?

The reasons driving youths to do this kind of things, are nothing else but poor education at home, by their parents and the complete lack of fear of consequences for their acts, inspired by many irresponsible people in schools and in the media.

You are saying that if there were no great consequences to what they did, they shouldn't be punished severely? Wrong! They will continue to commit crimes, thinking that nothing bad can happen to them.

They way I'm reading his post, Eltex thinks it's ok for a bunch of punks to terrorize, injure and steal from people. It's not ok, in the least.

this is PRECISELY Eltex's post in its ENTIRETY:

so a bunch of kids got in fights with each other, and you want severe punishment or something? exactly what did they do to your generation when kids got into fights with each other?

my ENTIRE point was this: Eltex did NOT CLAIM ANYTHING... Eltex ASKED two questions.. see?... look... there are only TWO questions... no STATEMENTS... no CLAIMS...

and now i think you are trying to read into what I said.. you have made an assumption about what Eltex said, you've made an assumption about how i interpreted what he said... and now you are making an assumption of whether or not i agree with what you think i think you think he said... LOL :)

and you know what happens when you try to ASS-U-ME something...

This sounds like a spin off of the recent aricle about groups of teens attacking people with no reason. Wow, is the youth of this country becoming violence junkies? Just hurt, steal or kill for the fun of it. The government isn't going to distroy the country, our youth are.

"It kind of makes me wonder if you are or were one of those punks. And, yes, they do need punished or they will keep doing things like that or worse. Maybe if they are punished now, they may learn something and not end up in prison in the next few years."

see... ASSUMPTION, ASSUMPTION, ASSUMPTION... you don't know ANYTHING about me... but at least now i know you are prejudice (you have judged me prematurely, haven't you?)...

but you know what the REALLY humorous thing about your post is? you have basically stated that if I'm not for 'severe punishment' that it makes you suspect i am a violent person... THAT IS SO SO FUNNY!!!! LOL :)

Oh, is Michael Jackson back and living in Minnesota? The one juvenile delinquent has a WHITE face-- wonder what color the rest of him is.

When I was in Minnesota visiting family, they took me to the Mall of America. There were more WHITES than blacks in the mall. Where do you racists get the idea that it was blacks who caused the trouble. Bet it was white juvenile delinquents that caused the problem-- the kind that have more cents than sense.

BTW-- I am a white female. I'm just calling it as I see it-- and I have lived long enough to remember when kids didn't do things like this. Parents knew how to parent. Kids knew how to act.

Wow!! No wonder we running out of scientists and engineers in our country! The schools are preparing to many philosophers, like you, splitting hairs about... nothing! You must work for the government Peteroid01!

Hilarious...I'm a single mom with a great kid who is doing well at University. I got pregnant because his father raped me. Additionally I have huge health issues and wait for it...I get $0 in help from the State or the Feds or the father. I never hit my son and believe me there were times when I considered it. Happily reason always worked (some folks here might consider trying it). We don't own guns. Hmmmmmmm. As far as my experience goes, men are the brutes and bullies. In my case, the abusers I've known have all been white men, usually small minded racist white men......BTW, I'm advocating for reasonable punishment not no punishment (reasonable being not biased by race and viciousness).

"Wow!! No wonder we running out of scientists and engineers in our country! The schools are preparing to many philosophers, like you, splitting hairs about... nothing! You must work for the government Peteroid01!

yet another assumption... keep em coming... i love being proved right by people trying to prove me wrong... LOL :)

by the way... i have a Bachelor of Science in Mathematics and almost a Masters... and have been a creative engineer (ok, Computer Game Developer/Designer/Producer/Programmer)... both independent and as an employee... for over 30 years with over 20 published games... so it would be fair to say i've been very successful as an engineer...

what was that about running out of scientists and engineers again? :)

ELTEX.... your question doesn't deserve a response, perhaps you missed the part where they said they were knocking down shoppers and stealing from kiosks ???? thats assualt and robbery the difference between my generation (gen X) and the younger generations is that we knew better. we would have left the store and went somewhere because even as young adults we had some self control and fear of the law. the entitlement generation doesn't.

To the idiots going on about severe punishment (or the perceived lack thereof), first of all punishment in the US isn't the slap on the wrist some think especially for poor minority kids. That's a fact. We wouldn't have the highest population of incarcerated in the world otherwise. This 'liberal bleeding heart' fantasy some of you wingnut DBs have created in your own heads is just that, fantasy.

The problem isn't severe punishment from the law, by the time the police are involved with juvenile's its basically too late. The problem is severe punishment from home and a generation of kids raised by "time out" parenting. Kids used to fear their parents and rightfully so. But going on two generations now, kids are made into these precious little commodities that are coddled at school where no one can fail, everyone's a winner, everyone's special. Every waking hour is spent tailoring to their needs in the most lazy manner, imagination is gone and the media has created this illusion that everybody deserves to be a Kar-effing-dashian.

This because the pendulum swung to far in the opposite direction parental discipline got broad-stroked by the extreme actions of some into epidemic child abuse!

This situation is a metaphor for what's wrong with America. Moderation no longer exists. Everything is extreme.

I find the kids at the center of this no more abhorrent than the people who'd like to see them all shot or sent to prison for life.

To the idiots going on about severe punishment (or the perceived lack thereof), first of all punishment in the US isn't the slap on the wrist some think especially for poor minority kids. That's a fact. We wouldn't have the highest population of incarcerated in the world otherwise. This 'liberal bleeding heart' fantasy some of you wingnut DBs have created in your own heads is just that, fantasy.

The problem isn't severe punishment from the law, by the time the police are involved with juvenile's its basically too late. The problem is severe punishment from home and a generation of kids raised by "time out" parenting. Kids used to fear their parents and rightfully so. But going on two generations now, kids are made into these precious little commodities that are coddled at school where no one can fail, everyone's a winner, everyone's special. Every waking hour is spent tailoring to their needs in the most lazy manner, imagination is gone and the media has created this illusion that everybody deserves to be a Kar-effing-dashian.

This because the pendulum swung to far in the opposite direction parental discipline got broad-stroked by the extreme actions of some into epidemic child abuse!

This situation is a metaphor for what's wrong with America. Moderation no longer exists. Everything is extreme.

I find the kids at the center of this no more abhorrent than the people who'd like to see them all shot or sent to prison for life.

If you'd visited the mall on a regular basis you'd know the crowds have slowly brought in riff-raff, people with no money and no business being their..I'm finding it hard to return" many shops are attracting them.

Avg Joe-1820350, these kids were NOT "good" and do not deserve any kind of reward. An ass kicking is all they deserve. "Good" kids do not push other people down, steal things they worked hard to buy, and also they don't steal from kiosks in the store and terrorize shop owners and other shoppers. Blowing off steam is one thing, their acts were criminal and should be responded to accordingly.

And, Susie, yes, kids of any color can cause trouble. But in the majority of the cases in metro areas, I am afraid that the chances are the kids are black who pull stunts like this. That's not a racist thing, that's just the fact of the matter. And to recognize it is the first step into getting the problem under control.

You know what? I'm an agnostic black woman, raised by a single mother. And I can assure you that neither myself, nor my brother would ever participate in something like that. Let's not act like Canada doesn't break out in riots after hockey games, or Europeans when it comes to political and economic changes, or the Middle East when it comes to damn near anything. It has nothing to do with "single mothers" or "Christianity" or "black people", it has to do with the fact that every race, every religion, and every society has a bunch of stupid, violent idiots that think it's fun to go out and steal other people's stuff, create chaos, and then brag about it to their friends. And that mob mentality creates a lack of judgement and a lack of feeling personal responsibility for what's going on.

Anyone from near the surrounding area of the Mall of America knows that the Mall has had major problems with gang related activity. They have had to beef up security of the years because of it. This isn't a democrat problem. This isn't a Republican problem. THIS IS ALL OF OUR PROBLEM. These aren't kids that came to the mall with their parents on a weekend shopping trip. These kids are there purposely causing trouble because there are rival gangs showing up in the mall trying to find each other to fight.

Colleen392992, well, you are certainly privy to more information than I have as apparently you know these were black kids. It is so discouraging to me that you now have 66 votes on your comment. Really. Really?

Now, if they are white kids, do you want the article to say "white kids"?

Please, crawl back under the rock you came from. And to those 66 people.........simply disgusting. I hope Colleen's comment is collapsed to restore my faith in humanity.

And you, Garp. You give Colleen 3 "amens"???? Real religious guy. Another example of why I stay away from religion. Shame on you and Colleen and everyone who voted her comment up (that number is now at 67).

Gee, atthebeach, you obviously haven't watched the video, which is absolutely viral, and shows exactly who the brawlers are.

Laura 417908, It is very difficult to respond politely to such ignorance as your statement. The conservative way has never been to give guns to bad guys, or bad boys and girls. The conservative way is to insure the rights of all citizens provided by our constitution. I don't personally own any guns, but as soon as I see that liberals are making progress on banning gun ownership to responsible citizens, I'll purchase maybe 2-3 of them. Perhaps you should read the constitution before you comment further. You are confused (still trying to talk nice here). How about giving us an example of a conservative giving guns to bad guys? It was the Obama Administration that sold the guns they knew were headed to the Mexican drug cartels and ended up being used to kill a US law enforcement officer. Last I heard, Obama and Holder are pretty liberal guys. Now before you start the liberal rant that I'm a racist for saying that, let me tell you that I voted for Obama. Possibly the worst vote of my life. Prooves I'm not that much smarter than you, doesn't it?

Hey Peteruidiot, I honestly wish I were there when these young African Americans were stealing and knocking down these white women and children , honestly !!!!I'd show them a flash mob they'd never remember !!!!

shoppers beware...the common assumption people make about minnesota is that it's a safe place peopled by milk white girls and apple cheek boys but for the last two decades this area has been designated by the government to be diversity ground zero...so this flash mob grab thing has become a regular occurance especially at that mall where the new unemployed arrivals congregate and plot to create these brawls as a diversion to grab what they can.

Imatthebeach is just another liberal dead head. I hadn't seen the video until just now and I see the perpetrators were black youths. atthebeach chooses to live with her head in the sand. That's the liberal way now. Unless it's a white skinhead gang, you will probably not here what the race of those individuals was. I mean, even our current Attorney General and the Obama Administration would not go after those Black Panthers that were harassing white voters in front of the polling station. That's the liberal way these days.

Lets put in a Tattoo check points in all mall entrances or lets put in tattoo parlors.

ELTEX....Charles never answered your question,so I will.I am 52 and at age 16 all I got was a choice of 6 months probation,or 8 hours community service...I chose the later.I was more afraid of my Dad having to pick me up from jail.

To answer Eltex and Lanikai Ron. First, Eltex years ago when groups of young guys had a beef with one another it was settled away from other people. It was never done where other innocent people could be injured or property could be damaged. Generally the police would pick up those who got knocked down and didn't get up to run away. When they got home, usually the father beat the daylights out of them as well. Second, Lanikai Ron, why do you make it a political thing by saying something about it being a liberal thing. Is that all you know? Kids today don't know, let alone care about politics so leave the labels out of it. Kids today are bored, their parents aren't interested in them personally and provide them with worldly items, mostly electronics to compensate for showing them little personal interest and time. Not all kids do what the kids did in America's Mall. And for those saying it was one particular race, I didn't see any reports that it was any one race that caused this. I may be wrong, but I didn't see anything to the contrary that would change my opinion.

Kacz. everything is political now and if you just choose to ignore the loss of morality in this country, you are part of the problem. I am a fiscal conservative and am admittedly not a religious man. But that doesn't stop me from seeing the changes in our society. Perhaps you should look at the video and then you can feel foolish for making statements based on lack of information. I could care less what race is involved, but is very difficult not to try and counter the disinformation and false assumptions made by those like yourself in these messages.

This has nothing to do with POLITICS, grow up!

It was George Bush's fault! Obama will resolve problem with a beer summit between the young adults and mall security. Life is good!

Laura, You could not be more wrong.

Yes mam Laura. I still have the cat-o-nine tail that was given to my Dad by my livery stable owner Grandfather like he did with all of his children when they had their first child. That and the fact that my lifer Marine Corps Dad would have the last say about anything I did wrong were reasons I never got arrested. I can say the same for my children and my grandchildren at the moment. I know Laura, liberals just hate that, don't they?

All the following stats are from "Thecolorofcrime"

• Blacks are seven times more likely than people of other races to commit murder,
and eight times more likely to commit robbery.
• When blacks commit crimes of violence, they are nearly three times more likely
than non-blacks to use a gun, and more than twice as likely to use a knife.
• Hispanics commit violent crimes at roughly three times the white rate, and
Asians commit violent crimes at about one quarter the white rate.
• The single best indicator of violent crime levels in an area is the percentage of
the population that is black and Hispanic.

• Of the nearly 770,000 violent interracial crimes committed every year involving
blacks and whites, blacks commit 85 percent and whites commit 15 percent.
• Blacks commit more violent crime against whites than against blacks. Fortyfive
percent of their victims are white, 43 percent are black, and 10 percent are
Hispanic. When whites commit violent crime, only three percent of their victims are
black.
• Blacks are an estimated 39 times more likely to commit a violent crime against
a white than vice versa, and 136 times more likely to commit robbery.
• Blacks are 2.25 times more likely to commit officially-designated hate crimes
against whites than vice versa.

• Only 10 percent of youth gang members are white.
• Hispanics are 19 times more likely than whites to be members of youth gangs.
Blacks are 15 times more likely, and Asians are nine times more likely.

• Between 1980 and 2003 the US incarceration rate more than tripled, from 139
to 482 per 100,000, and the number of prisoners increased from 320,000 to 1.39
million.
• Blacks are seven times more likely to be in prison than whites. Hispanics are
three times more likely

and once again the young punks will get a slap on the wrists and released.

Yeah, we should totally just execute them and be done with it.

/sarcasm

I shop online....case closed...

if these folks get punished then jesse jackson and company will cry racism. thanks to the liberal movement there is no punishment and absolutely no accountability when you can always blame someone else.

Lanikai Ron said: "Yes mam Laura. I still have the cat-o-nine tail that was given to my Dad by my livery stable owner Grandfather like he did with all of his children when they had their first child."

---------------------------

Ron, are you serious about this family "heirloom"of yours?

Considering the context of punishment as a political issue that you are arguing about and apparently promoting while at teh same time you deride centrists and progressives for not resporting to these methods from the Dark Ages, you and the readers do realize that this was one of many tools of human torture popularly used by autocrats against their own people, throughout human history.

But considering that Dick Cheney approves of waterboarding to force people to falsely "cooperate" with their interrogators, (while John McCain does not approve of these methods since he's an ex-prisoner of war), why am I not surprised that you sound as if you are proud of this fact that your family shares this item of fear and pain, passed on from one generation to the next.

And please don't tell us that you use this cat-o-nine heirloom to just control farm animals in your family. So how many scars do you have and how many did you create on your children and grandchildren? Are the police aware of this?

Couple of things here, white or black kids. Todays white kids listen to the real bad rap, do drugs, shoot cops, beat your bytch music, if you want to call it that. In PA they call them wiggers. Wiggers defined means whites that want to be black. Anyhow, they are trouble and the bottom line they need to be put into their place. Then another thing, single moms, at a very high percentage have to be the worst raising children. You can't even yell at their kids if they do something wrong. I do think kids need to have their behinds cracked well enough, so that when they sit down they remember they did something wrong and it dosen't screw them up when they get older. Like me I had my behind cracked enough times that if my dad was raising kids today, he would be in jail more than he would be home, me, well every now and then I still enjoy a good spanking, heck we have some fun with it, whats so bad about that? The main thing about it all, I stayed out of jail all my life and actually I turned out pretty good, well smart enough at least not to get caught, so something was learned by all those ass whoopings I got.

Spider, you are absolutely correct. I had not seen the video. You see, I have things to do other than being overly concerned with what video happens to go viral today.

Lanakai Ron, I hope you are suspended for name calling. Guess that Marine Corps father didn't teach you any manners. He does seem to have taught you to yes ma'am, no ma'am, three bags full, ma'am. My condolences on the way you were raised---those military dads can cause a lot of pain for everyone in the family and raise kids that turn out to be as rude as you are.

Regardless of all of that, what do you propose? That every suspect or perp be identified by race? What difference does it make what race a perp is unless law enforcement is searching for him?

As for sweet Colleen, I checked her account page and it appears she is consistently obnoxious and hateful, with others commenting on what a racist she is.

Dano, as usual, you are a voice of reason in all this garbage. I, too, shop mostly online.

Case Closed.

Imatthebeach, I don't think you know anything about military life based on your comment. By the way, my military Dad did a pretty good job with me. He raised a son who served his country as an Army CWO helicopter pilot with one tour in Vietnam. He raised a son who now owns and operates a union general contracting company. He raised a son whose relatives know they can depend on for help when they are having money problems. That military Dad is alive and well at the age of 88 and has been married to my Mom for 66-years and she is enjoying the good life right along with him. That lifer Marine is a veteran of WWII, Korean War, and the Vietnam War. It appears that you are intimidated by success. And that suits me just fine. Time to go whine to somebody else about your inability to understand those that did for this country what I expect you just watched from your chair in front of your TV.

rradiko, Your rant just shows me you have succumbed to the liberal push toward mediocrity for all of this country's citizens. Comparing the use of a cat-o-nine tails to torture endured by prisoners of war like John McCain shows how delusional your imagination is. To bad you are incapable of seeing the difference in our youth compared to even 25-years ago. The lack of parental corporal punishment is partly to blame for that. There is nothing I can say or do to make you see the reality of my experience and the success it has brought to my children and grandchildren. Not my problem.

Lanikai Ron, I don't know anything about military life? I am intimidated by success?

Uh..............I am highly successful in my field, my husband is a West Point grad, we've been married 39 years and.............Imatthebeach.

Feel intimidated now?

You seem to be quite bitter. Must be because your daddy beat you.

Well I'm surprised. Please thank your husband for me for his military service. I still think you've missed something along the way. My Daddy never beat me. Statements like that are what makes me feel you are delusional. What beach are you at? I'm on Lanikai Beach. I bet I win that one.

I'm kind of surprised the OWS troops didn't follow the brawlers into the mall and start setting up tents !!!

With all the garbage that we saw in the news during the scrabbled OWS protests...was this mini-riot at the mall so very much different ???

If just about anything that the OWS folks said, did, or wanted to do was to be tolerated, even respected...as felt by many at this site...and often even praised, the brawl at the mall only took things a couple of degrees further.

"I want what I want because I want it and I want it now...and somebody else should pay the tab for me"...was one of the lessons the OWS crowd left behind.

Next time this happens, the vandals should be wearing "99%" hats...so what they do gets deemed as acceptable.

tony-268769, please don't try my patience and get me suspended from the vine.

Lanikai Ron, Uncle!!! If you are on Lanikai, I think most people would agree that you've got me beat on the beach. I'm on the east coast----I do love my little beach town, though.

And no, I'm not delusional. I'm sitting here, laughing...........I saw your cat-o-nine tail comment and forgot I wasn't posting a comment on the thread about Michael Pearl's book, To Raise Up a Child. lol I'm a little touchy about beating kids.

Imat...

Then why bother responding to what I wrote ? I'm supposed to worry about your levels of "patience" before I choose to scribble any thoughts ?

Sally...

Quite sadly...the accompanying video says quite a lot about race.

Sally, I am not one to jump into a race argument of any kind and I have made no comments regarding that. In this case however, the comment that started the race discussion was that MSNBC did not mention anything about the particular race of those involved. As it turns out, this riot, or whatever you choose to call it was race based. It appears that identifying that race was a deliberately excluded from the so called "news" report. If you followed the discussion, their were some surprising (at least to me) statistics provided on the "color of crime". As you said, nothing in the article said anything about race. That is the problem. Here we have MSNBC, a national news organization, operating along the liberal lines of PC (political cowardice), reporting only part of the story. Sloppy journalism or purposeful omission? Regardless, asking people to not discuss race is an attempt to stop the people from hearing the truth, and I say that respectfully. I learned more from the discussion than I did from the MSNBC report.

Don't these kids know that if they want to fight in the mall they have to go on black Friday?

There are serious problems with the way we punish Juveniles these days. My Nephew tells me JVC is like going to camp. He's made some great friends there and acts like it's the greatest place in the world. He has even asked his mother to bring him some synthetic marijuana while doing 3 more months. He is now out and on probation along with a few of his best friends he met there. This is what happens when you are not allowed to punish your own kids.

amen to that also

All the following stats are from "Thecolorofcrime"

• Blacks are seven times more likely than people of other races to commit murder,
and eight times more likely to commit robbery.
• When blacks commit crimes of violence, they are nearly three times more likely
than non-blacks to use a gun, and more than twice as likely to use a knife.
• Hispanics commit violent crimes at roughly three times the white rate, and
Asians commit violent crimes at about one quarter the white rate.
• The single best indicator of violent crime levels in an area is the percentage of
the population that is black and Hispanic.

• Of the nearly 770,000 violent interracial crimes committed every year involving
blacks and whites, blacks commit 85 percent and whites commit 15 percent.
• Blacks commit more violent crime against whites than against blacks. Fortyfive
percent of their victims are white, 43 percent are black, and 10 percent are
Hispanic. When whites commit violent crime, only three percent of their victims are
black.
• Blacks are an estimated 39 times more likely to commit a violent crime against
a white than vice versa, and 136 times more likely to commit robbery.
• Blacks are 2.25 times more likely to commit officially-designated hate crimes
against whites than vice versa.

• Only 10 percent of youth gang members are white.
• Hispanics are 19 times more likely than whites to be members of youth gangs.
Blacks are 15 times more likely, and Asians are nine times more likely.

• Between 1980 and 2003 the US incarceration rate more than tripled, from 139
to 482 per 100,000, and the number of prisoners increased from 320,000 to 1.39
million.
• Blacks are seven times more likely to be in prison than whites. Hispanics are
three times more likely

"Of the nearly 770,000 violent interracial crimes committed every year involving
blacks and whites, blacks commit 85 percent and whites commit 15 percent."

Problem is Jesse Jackson and company are only worried about the 15 percent. If they focused on the collective 100% the problem might get solved.

Karl; Those are some good stats there and just from keeping a sharp eye out for the young punks in the town I live in and some of the neighboring local towns I visit, I know those stats are true. Now the blacks and hispanics that commit more crimes against whites, is because most of the white people around here need to grow a set. Its easy picking for them to commit the crimes against the whites, they don't fight back. Then theres me, so far they leave me alone, they know I'm not a good person for them to be pucking with. I know one of them will come around one day for me, he's going to need to prove something to the rest of his gang, but the bad thing for him, he's leaving in a body bag. So we all have to take our chances out there as long as these thugs are out on the streets and no ones doing anything about them. Heck they even rob people walking in the boro's parking lot, right behind the police station. You'd think that would be a safe place for elders to walk, but its not. Sort of an embarassment to the police dept, wouldn't you think. So be safe out there and my suggestion to whites, that can be victims of these senseless crimes, go buy a friend and you more than likely won't have to use it, but for the thugs just knowing you have a friend with you, they'll leave you alone.

Now heres another thing for people walking the streets late night, just going home from work or whatever the reason for them having to be out there late night. Don't use the sidewalks, walk on the street, right in the middle of it, so you have time to react if somone does come out from between some cars. Thugs can hide behind shrubs or other decorative yardwork people have and then when your walking on the sidewalk they club you on the head and go through your pockets. Always take a look behind you, to see if your being followed, look ahead too and make sure you don't see someone hiding in between cars. Be smart out there don't make it easy for them, they expect that from white people. Even if you have to walk a few steps more, walk right out in the middle of a parking lot rather than along side of the parked vehicles. When your walking out there just use your head and think like the thugs do and then do what you know will make it tough for them to get you. Having a friend with you now days, helps a lot. Sure they will call you on that, but thats when you pull it out for them to see and you raise it towards them and tell them one more step closer to you and your going to plug all of them. You do have to hold your own out there now days, or else don't be out there if you don't have to be. These POS punk kids need to learn a few times and then I think they'll stop. Once they figure out that people are arming themselves and they aren't afraid to use them, they'll stop. Its a shame your going to have to spend money on a attorney, but thats life now days, myself I'm going for the mercy of the jury. I know myself, if I was on the jury, I would put myself in the persons place thats on trial and I would automatically say they're innocent. I think most people on the jury would think the same way. Myself I'll get a public defender and tell him what to say. Hopefull he does say what I ask them too and they have something senseable to add to it themselves. Just keep yourself safe out there and for the people that think you don't need guns, how about you come take a walk in my town, late night. Your going to get robbed and get yourself one good ass whoopin, on top of getting robbed.

time to outlaw flash mobs. BTW I dare some punk, any punk, to push my family down and/or try to STEAL my personal property. I dare any of you or those punks to do it. It'll be the last thing you do with 2 legs.

let me have a crack at these rotten punks and i would beat them bloody and senseless and i will meet

them at any mall in america!

They used to have "flash mobs" in the sixities. They all whore white hoodies, and it usually ended at a tree or a house with a burning cross.

Dexter the only bad thing about what you say is, It might be the last thing you ever do cause theres more then one so when your doing what your doing to one. you got 15 or more behind you fixing to do it to you.

Little walt , I'm a solid 285 and 6ft. , any way they want to play they will lose !

One, I don't go to malls or anywhere else where there are lots of people, especially undisciplined teenagers and twenty-somethings.

Two, I carry a gun (licensed) whenever I go out of the house and refuse to be physically attacked without defending myself....if that means I have to shoot a few attackers who are threatening me with bodily harm, so be it....self-correcting problem........

I know it ain't PC.....times have gone beyond PC.........

Joe 6-pack-773613; I have to agree with your thinking. I never leave the house with my friend. I'm too banged up from working, to get physical with a group of thugs. I have some bad discs in my neck and a bum shoulder too, so I'm not going toe to toe with these young guys. If one of them hits me, thats it for them. I'm still able to handle myself fairly well, even with the injuries, it will take a good bit for them to knock me down to where I'm helpless and if they think they can hold up against my friend then thats what they get, a permenant home in a body bag. I'll take my chances in court, which I think any jury in the USA will find me not guilty, but if they don't, I'm sure I'll get out of jail on some bail and I'll either take off or put one in my nogin myself and call it a day. What do I have to lose, I wake up in pain and go to sleep in pain everyday. I'm not going to jail for protecting myself, thats for sure.

I know, they NEVER make any observations about "types", ethnicities or anything anymore...which is ridiculous if you ask me. We have a right to know which crowds are causing these issues... My motivation isn't racist at all either, they could be white redneck punks for all I know... Regardless, it's basic information the public should be allowed to know. This is an incredibly annoying approach to crime reporting in the hyper-PC age.

I suppose I can just watch the videos...

Jason, they could have been white educated rich kids. You know the kind that kill their parents like those two brothers in California that are now serving time in prison. Along those lines, what derogatory comment do you use to describe black kids that act out just like those redneck whites do in your mind?

And just what would you do with this information? run away every time you see a group of white kids? call the police when you see a group of black kids? there was no reason to post the race of the individual criminals involved in this action. It would have served no purpose.

Yeah Ron,that happened what,20 years ago? And this incident happened like yesterday?
Is that the best you can come up with?

Lanikai Ron & NC VET 6050

Lanikai....I love how people like you take one event, one isolated event, that doesn't even compare to the type of crime that is being discussed. I suppose you don't think derogatory comments either? Rac e plays a very important part in the reporting of these flash mob incidents. White kids flash mob and they do stupid and nerdy dance routines designed to entertain. These black flash mobs and designed to commit a maximum amount of crime and damage with minimum punishment.

NC VET---this is an epidemic if you would take five minutes to actually do you own research. The black youth flash mob is crime related. So yes, it is very important to describe WHAT GROUP is doing this since the black ones are the ones who are in for blood.

A lot of you have it right...it is cowardly reporting to provide all the information about what happened but not report on any of the actual suspects. If this was a group of white privileged kids you better believe that it would be reported as a youth crisis. You would hear about how spoiled white kids are disconnected from reality. But to not include race when blacks were behind it? Either it is spineless pc crap or it means that it is expected of certain ethnic groups. Maybe one day black people will realize they are being treated like mental children with how the media reports on them.

Brian, I'll make my statement more simple for you to understand. I commented on the use of the term "rednecks" in that it is derogatory. It seems okay today in the minds of liberals to disparage whites at the drop of a hat while they purposely avoid doing the same to other races. In fact, they come out of the woodwork when commenters here play tit of tat. I promise to make my next comment based on a 2nd grade education level so you understand what I'm saying.

All whites are not rednecks. I don't take it personal when someone talks about rednecks. I know who they are and I'm not one of them. I don't like rednecks. And I don't like the thug rap culture. And if either one of them were involved in this mall crap I say give them 100 lashes with a bullwhip and see if they do it again. Then execute them if they do. This stuff has gone far enough. Our youth are nothing but feral animals for the most part anymore.

Careful golliegeewillikers. There are those commenting here that would label you a redneck based on your moniker.

Jason, they could have been white educated rich kids

Nuh-uh.........

there's another group of people kinda like rednecks but wiser and we are all races, we call ourselves the foresters. unlike the true rednecks however we don't get drunk or use drugs all the time and we keep to ourselves, we do like weapons, hunting, fishing and building/fixing stuff, but we do it with control and we will never litter in the forests like rednecks do with their dumped appliances and illegal landfills, instead when we see garbage that's resell able or salvageable we pick it up and use it. we don't waste time affiliating ourselves with political parties we don't pick sides, we vote based on whose more likely to get the job done right while protecting our freedom's and when trouble arises we band together to make it stop so we can have our peace again. all of us are gifted in at least a few skills as well and we don't have a negative stereotype because we don't do wrong intentionally and we avoid the medias spotlight for our peace. we never have many problems because we help each other out with our skills so life's easier for us all.

If you're playing the odds, and you hear of a violent mob action in a public place, would it be more likely that it is groups of city blacks or " white educated rich kids"? Watch the news and grow up! Which group is MORE LIKELY to be involved? I think thats what Jayson is making reference to.

yup if the writing is on the wall...

Agree. When it comes to repeat offenders (which many of these chaos causers are), I personally think judges that release this scum back into the general public should themselves be held legally accountable.

Bring back the ability of the courts to PUNISH the criminal, Like public whippings for small crime all the way up to having ones life taking for murder where there is no dougt that this person is gulity and make it swift. it's that or there will be a day of vigilanty justice

Neither of you is even considering the fact that our jails are already stuffed full! You want to raise taxes so we can build more? I didn't think so!

It isn't the judges. The idea that they want to release this scum back into the public is absurd. Just another simplistic and STUPID argument from the Right. What we see and what we are going to see even more in the future is turmoil at the bottom as they see themselves frozen out of society.

And I was truly pissed at Nike releasing another meaningless Jordan shoe for these kids with so little to waste their money on. Never using any corporate responsibility but taking the easy money. And it sure doesn't go to the workers who put these shoes together back in China.

Mr. Jordan is the worst role model for kids America ever produced. A gambling, womanizer (and now an NBA owner) who is really no better than Tiger Woods but somehow maintains a hold over an entire generation of kids but who never tells them anything of worth. If you saw his Hall of Fame speech you know he is incredibly self centered. Wouldn't doubt that shoe is what attracted a lot of these hoodlums to the mall to begin with.

Hey Vox, I personally would want my taxes raised to incarcerate people that want to take MY stuff or harm my loved ones. It would save me the hassle of hunting them down !

Most of these kids, and be clear there were also adults arrested, probably have already had a run in with the law. Once they get a record they can't get employed and turn to the criminal side out of forfeit. Never mind that this lifestyle is glamorized, it is also short lived. Such a dead end world. Most of them probably have a pair of Jordans, a Smart Phone and very little else. It is a very selfish life of poor decisions. With the limited opportunity today you don't get many chances.

Yes, we could lock them all up and we probably should but we have developed a lost generation in our prisons. And many of these people will never be rehabilitated. Maybe we need penal colonies again? Send 'em all to Greenland and let the strong survive! It's going to take creative solutions and the Bill of Rights doesn't give much leeway.

If you mess with the innocent in this society you should go to jail. I have no problem with that.

just who is glamorizing this lifestyle?

Blacks

Another good reason for Concealed handgun permit!!!!!!!!

MOA does not allow weapons...

unless its posted on the outside of the building they cant do anything and that's why we have a cwp to begin with, that and i carry a big knife and 5 small ones as well so i can choose my weapon, if they want my gear they will die trying. also i think they are about to change policies on that.

sanjua: it appears that they allow riots and theft though, eh?

The purpose of "Concealed" is that the bad guys don't see it.

Glad Done....didn't have to use it.

BTW, I'm a liberal and think the rioters should have their a$$es kicked.

Happy New Year all, and stay safe.

Of course. Because for some people your life or mine isn't anything if it stands in the way of people of a certain mentality getting to wear a $180 pair of sneakers. I'd like to see stores ask to see a legitimate pay stub before they are allowed to sell someone any "luxury" item -- if you can't prove you work for a living, you shouldn't be allowed to buy anything but the necessities with taxpayer public assistance money.

It`s ashame that our society has come to this point where materialistic things mean more to people than the life,,health and welfare of their fellow man. I suspect this generation learned to value material things more than their fellow man from listening to conservatives who think that paying a little more taxes to help the less fortunate isn`t worth it,so kids grow up believing that their life and all life is worth less than a few extra dollars out of someones pay check.then we are shocked when they go rampaging through a mall to steal material things and treat their fellow man like worthless garbage.

NBForrest...

Anyone who believes that their life's worth is based on the money someone else is taxed, has already fallen victim to the current culture of "Gimee", which has been handed to us by liberal, gutless America. Those people ARE WORTHLESS, and will never improve their own lot, but always expect those white people they hate to pay more and more, or blame them for what they have become, or always were.

I guess (no, I'm pretty sure) that you think that these animals (made so by their own culture) deserve a free ride for their entire lives, and that it's the responsibility of the hard working people, to pay for that free ride.

Any liberal psychiatrist will tell you, if any animal gets everything for free, it will always expect free, and will eventually want lots more free.

Of course, that ignores an even bigger problem - parents who instill in their children the mentality that crime is A-OK and it makes them awesome because jail time is the greatest reward of all. "I wanna be just like my jailbird Mom and jailbird Dad. They told me that's the only way people will respect me."

Bubba,

I don't believe in parents that beat their kids, and it's hard for parents to know the difference. My folks didn't. I have scars to prove it. But you're right. As soon as the baby boomers started to raise their kids and never said no to them, never gave the kid a swat on the butt, never a punishment, this country was done for. Now those spoiled monsters are raising kids, and those monsters and raising kids. The parents get sick of the little @!$%#s screaming and crying and dump them on the grandparents, and the grandparents almost are afraid of them. Nobody want the kids around out in public. What a world!

The biggest problem, is lack of authority figures in the household, or parents that don't know how/ care enough to use authority and teach their kids right from wrong.

Azz whuppins by parents can sometimes(not every time) provide an eye opening experience to the reality of ACTION and REACTION.

Physical punishments(within reason), is just a taste of what the consequences in the real world are like.

If you fight against law enforcement, you'll most likely be taken down with FORCE and possibly be hurt in the process. That's reality. If you attack the wrong person, you might get a beat down or shot. That's reality.

A little corporal punishment can go a long way in correcting delinquents.

Kids who can control themselves better(more capable of reasoning), can have softer methods of punishment(sitting down and talking) used to correct them.

No it is not immediately a good loud (no I told you not to do that) and 3 quick smacks on the backside (butt)!

Most of these kids don't have parents. The average age of the mom was probably 15. They just live to pass on their genes and then go to jail or get killed.

Ahahaha I wasn't even miscing today, was just reading MSN and came across this. Aware. -MasonSS

Dave,

Of course Dave, now take your meds and relax!

You bet they're Obama supporters because you like to see the world two-dimensionally. The young Obama supporters are either far away from the mall smoking weed or in the mall spending their huge bundles of Xmas money. The young republicans are also spending huge bundles of Grandma's gift money. The douche bags who start these fights and flash mobs are NON-VOTERS. Somewhere deep down I think you already knew that. ;-)

where the hell you get the idea this is Obama supporters. These are uncontrolled kids, no parental supervision, gangs who like to push their weight around. No respect for anyone anymore these days. Lack of both parents being in the home, and being raised to respect other people property and place. Our Justice system is a joke!!!.

We hope they aren't voters

@ Dave: ease up homie! They just lookin' for the "stash" they been promised!

in the case of george w the term rich educated white kid was a contradiction of terms.

When I started reading the comments I wondered how long before Obama was dragged into this!

Dave--

You are full of crap, just like all other Obama-haters.

Obviously YOU are a hater, Dave is stating fact!

Spoil the crap out of the rod and spare the little dumbass

Y'know Andy, you're right. A lot of this current crap goes all the way back to Dr. Spock. He fostered the 'spare the rod' philosophy, and talk to the little darlings. Yeah. A couple of generations later and what do we have? Chaos. Disorder. Unruly violence. I'm glad I am nearer the end of my life than the beginning. If I were in my 20's, knowing what I do now, I would probably be in prison for beating some teen-aged hood/thug to death.

Sorry if I sound violent, but I'm too old to have to be patient with a bunch of punks.

Fred,

I am pretty sure that we have to be over 70 to remember when there wasn't a Spock. Just think of all the people in between. Most people's Grandparents were raised under the "influence."

The lack of disciplne and acceptance of responsibilty has undone us. My fear is that I am afraid the snowball is too far down the hill.

Happy New Year!

Did you know, years later Dr. Spock recanted? Way too little, way too late. Every time I run afoul of these SOCC's (Seed Of Chucky Children) I wish a class action lawsuit could've been filed against Dr. Spock. The penalty not being money, but community service for LIFE.

Too little, too late!

The real question you should ask is why are african american youth always being the ones reported on? It isn't like this type of behavior is race specific.

Think about it, if it's not reported by the media equally with the veracity that is used to highlight this type of behavior by african american youth then the public perceives it as solely the act of one ethnic group.

In many cases it is african american youths. The Mayor of Philadelphia recognized who was doing flash and smashes, and you should also recognize that relative to their proportion of population these youth are committing much more of the crime.

Quit pretending that it is otherwise.

Sayitaintso-628660

You are kidding, right? This type of behavior is most definetely race specific. No other race of people acts like this. Get a damn clue!

The public perceives it as solely the act of one ethnic group BECAUSE IT IS SOLELY THE ACT OF ONE ETHNIC GROUP.

First of all, they are not African American, they did not come from Africa. Their ancestors did. They are American, that is all.

We all saw the video and picture of the youths who rioted over the Nike shoes. Every one of them was black. The culture of these people is when any little thing happens, a fight breaks out, for instance, the first thing they think of is to use it as a distraction to grab something of value and run for it. Every time there is an issue of race in the media, a "riot" breaks out, but in truth the "riot" is a smash and grab. Young people looting is not a riot because of a social injustice, it is an excuse to steal a TV set. We see the videos of these incidents, and all we see are black faces. They are raising their children to think that society owes them these things, and they should use opportunities to grab things that don't belong to them. That's why we think the way we do, because media gives us the opportunity to see for ourselves what color the perpetrators are.

exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jason, not all of the folks in Minnesota are citizens. Minnesota took in a HUGE group of Somali refugees that had been receiving payments to live on from social security funds temporarily. Bachman extended their stay here in the US so they can soak up more tax payer funds. You try working for the SS Office and being greeted by a mad Somali with a machete who's free cash flow just ended. Not everyone in America are Americans.

12349876 so what is your point on the Somali refugees? I have yet to see one act like that. I know quite a few of them and from what I see they tend to be very polite and hard working. I used to get a kick out of watching them get out of their car but only from the stand point of a juvinile grin while I try to figure out how many more are packed in there. From what I have seen though they tend work together as a family unit and pool their resources as they earn their money. From what I have seen they start with next to nothing and within a year or so are self sufficient with their own cars and apartments. This is not the act of welfare minded people but people who know what it means to be truly poor and who have a drive to fix thier circumstances. If we could figure out a way to foster that same spirit in our own youth we would not be in the decline we see today.

I was talking about the comment of black people being African American. They are black people, not African American. There was nothing about my comment that included Somalians. Also, I am from Minnesota, I know about the refugees who were brought there. Don't try to hand me facts of something you think you know.

Im sorry but it is often race specific. They are being reported because they are the ones breaking the law.

Understood Jason. I see what you were referring to.

Don't get me wrong...I agree with you...If you are a citizen of America you are an American...nothing more, nothing less. You are absolutely correct.

I live in one of the bigger towns in Minnesota that took in Somalis. To date, I know ONE man my age who has done well for himself and is raising his family. All others are rude, mean, and just plain awful to be around. Many of the women do what they can to get pregnant so they don't have to work (yes, I have firsthand knowledge of this). Further, I take offense to the people who say that the single parents of the next generation are terrible parents. I was pregnant at 18, kept my son, married and divorced his father, maintained a decent enough relationship with the father so my son always had him involved in his life and got off the public rolls by the time my son was in 1st grade. I am well-educated and had a dad who taught me work ethic and responsibility. My son's dad, his wife, and I said "no" consistently and applied appropriate discipline. Not many spankings, but there were some. We were also active in his school life and gave him encouragement and support. Unfortunately, we noticed his friends had quite the influence on his attitude of entitlement. Now that he's in college, he struggles to get the difference between his buddies who get what they want and himself, who can't just do whatever he wants and have us foot the bill. But he's getting it, albeit slowly...THAT must be a male thing.

Tea Earl Gray,

My original point was that not all people in America are American citizens. I used the fact that a large group of Somali refugees live in Minnesota to emphasize this point.

As for the machete wielding Somali...it was an experience that I don't think anyone should have to face here in the US. The fact that he saw nothing wrong with what he tried to do was a large part of cultural differences. What was worse was the fact he was allowed to walk away because apparently the belief is that he didn't know any better. People need to emphasize what is wrong otherwise things won't change. The fact that he was able to walk away with no punishment doesn't teach him anything. People are not going to raise their children to abstain from violence if they don't see anything wrong with it or there is no punishment for the crime. Shouldn't our laws be followed and enforced by everyone living here?

American or not it has everything to do with what people are taught at home...and by home, that could include, yes the actual home, or it could also include the community in which we live.

Apparently there is as much variance in Somalis as there is in whites, blacks, Hispanics, Indians and whatever race you want to bring up. The ones I know are nothing like the ones you know. Apparently I should be glad of that. As for being expected to obey the law and suffer the same punishments you are correct there should be no difference.

Poor people in Minnesota deport those somali scum if they're not willing to live like normal human beings. America shouldn't be taking in people that don't know how to live or act civilized.

that is what our parents said in the 20's 30's 40's 50's 60's 70's 80's 90's....so what else is new stop being such a stick in the mud

Actually when you get away from the big cities it is pretty nice,and thats coming from a cheesehead.

Northern MN is nice. Twin Cities and Rochester are debatable.

you just need to get out of the inner city.

probably working, studying, spending time with family....

Not being wild animals

"... their parents... cannot touch them..."

Baloney! Corporal punishment of one's own children is legal in every state! Bans on all forms of corporal punishment, including by parents, have been proposed but are always heavily defeated.

Right or wrong, inflicting reasonable and appropriate pain on one's child as a teaching device, as long as it's not gross physical abuse (starving, burning, breaking limbs, leaving scars), is considered a necessary parental right.

The Liberals.. Kids need to fear the consequences for bad behavior.... Like spankings, Not beatings this is a difference. It's that or one day the PEOPLE will start to deal out a little vigilanty justice, and the victims will kick the crap out of these punks

In this PC world....Teens use this against their parents and report them to child services. I watched a friend do it many years ago...she was removed from the home. She even told me her parents never touched her...they just put her on restriction so she got 'even'.

cms5

Your friend sounds like someone who will ruin the life of anyone that wants to put her in her place when see acts out. People like her don't deserve to be roaming around in our society. she needs some jail time or something to set her straight.