Agree!

Can you say, "Detached from reality"?

The blame lies squarely on the shoulders of the killer, he did this all by himself. As we speak, millions of vets have harmed no one and continue to harm no one. Tens of thousands of vets with PTSD handled themselves well enough to make it through the day and not harm a soul. Ask them and they will tell you they do not blame Park Rangers for their problems and would not harm them.

Blame? Blame this idiot for his acts of stupidity.

Paid... my daughter works for VA dealing with folks like this young man. To say that war had nothing to do with his condition is being detached from reality. I am not disputing his guilt - that is something which will become more clear to all of us once the details are released. What I'm highlighting is the actual cost of these nonsense wars to us as a society.

as we speak thousands of vets are on the same path as he..He is just the first ...these guys are practically abandoned by the system which built them ..only recently during the Obama administration are the right resources finally getting into place to head off the thousands of these such incidents that will happen ..and as we speak the republican controlled congress wants to review the potential coming cuts to the military that they themselves put in place .if the super committee failed .. there will be some cuts senator graham(SC) (R) has said, but not to essential weapons systems ..but some things are on the table he quoted "things that until now we have not been able to cut"he later added things such as "family support,healthcare,and pay" they are tough cuts he added but the soldiers are tough people" He and all the repugnanticans should be made to fight ...They bring the war then they don't pay for it then they abandon the men and women who have to fight it....

Yes, I agree.

The system that uses young men up and spits them out needs so badly to be reformed.

Anyone who thinks that they are able to make a rational choice about their actions knows nothing about what they've gone through.

The blood of the soldiers is on GW BUSH's hands! Hope he can live with that...the sob!

Military service should be a prerequisite for running for The Senate, The house, or President.

Really SonofMollyM? To what end might that serve? An even more bloated war budget?

seang- that sounds about right, never changes does it.

To bad the wife couldn't have done something more for him besides file a restraining order. Sounds like this guy had zero support available. Discharged for DUI and guns...this story is full of bad news.

why dose eavryblame the army and want to make the coments oh the army uses men up throws them away if that was true and was the armys faut then almost eavry ex militery man and woman wodd become murders and crimnals but its only less than half of 1 percent. pluss if you want to say oh well its the army dose that mean all firmen become arsonest case they deal with fire so much or cops become crimanls case they deal with it so much?

It goes deeper,as we fight to preserve what we believe in. Many do it for god and country. The problem is becoming disallusioned as we find that might is not always right. When we discover that the enemy is not always an evil person. When you discover you could be friends with them in another situation. When they fight for their rights as they see them and with less, because they believe just as strongly as you do.

Ian Vannoy, your post is unintelligible . . . that means a literate person cannot understand what you are trying to say.

When I came back from Iraq in 2004, we received a lot of questioning about our mental state, and what we had seen in combat. The problem was, that the Army culture itself discourages anyone from admitting any kind of weakness. It is a macho culture, and you are expected to be tough. To say that you were having trouble dealing with the stress was something none of us wanted to do. If your buddies knew that you had done that, you felt that they would look down on you, or even ridicule you. So I, along with most others, denied any problems, refused help, and kept in inside. It took me years to understand why I had trouble sleeping, got angry so easily at home, had no interest in doing anything that I used to enjoy, like ball games, exercising and camping. That is not an excuse for killing a park ranger who was only doing her job. But people need to understand the true cost of war. So many people that I read here are always sounding off about attacking any country that pisses us off. As one that has been at the front of one of those attacks, I can that you really need to think about it. The people that you send over there, and who are lucky enough to survive, will never be the same when they come back. And we as a nation will being paying the price of this war for many decades to come, and I am not talking about money.

So true Michael, so true.

Thank you for your service.

So many young boys in the U.S. could use a good stint in the old fashioned military school as teens. They often get no guidance and discipline - or the wrong kind - at home, lacking a healthy outlet for all that young testosterone fueled ego. Glorification of guns and brutality fits the bill, especially with a war or two close at hand and a military willing to take anyone with a pulse who can blink and walk.

However, a common denominator of the criminal acts committed by other soldiers on that "troubled" base is they all involve violence against women, as did the murder committed by this immature 'roid jackwad.

Citizens do not send these enlistees off to war nor do they force them to enlist. Just maybe the military should be screening some of these people that enlist a little more deeply other than signing them onto the bottom line and then blaming everyone else when these loose cannons come back and implode on everyone around them. This murderer was responsible for shooting 4 people other than the innocent ranger he shot and killed. He is completely responsible for his own actions entirely. He was being advised by the people in his life to get help and this was the path he chose for himself and the victims he assaulted.

@ Poor tax payer How is it Obama's Fault when Bush was the one who was in office when the war began? Its sad yes that these innocent people were killed by a man who probably needed more help then a restraining order put against him. Just sad that it didnt happen in enough time. @ Micheal-3842950 Thank you for serving this country I am proud to be an american because what are military does to protect us.

Michael, thank you for your very honest and insightful post regarding the psychological suffering felt after serving in combat in Iraq, and the reluctance to ask for therapeutic help due to peer pressure to remain macho. Thank you for your great service and sacrifice, Michael. You are a true hero, and I hope that in time you will find peace of mind and true happiness once again.

I wonder where these people got their information about this killer and JBLM. IF there is "widespread problems with post-traumatic stress disorder among service members" it doesn't affect the public at large. There are more gang-related shootings by far than there are shootings by soldiers. I know, at least at JBLM: I live about ten miles from that base, directly south on I-5, and am less than 50 miles from where the killing took place and where they found the killer's body.

That having been said...the kids who join the service should be required to take a test concerning why they want to join up. In this day and age kids probably see "playing Army" like a giant, very realistic video game, complete with targets and blood. As long as we keep starting ridiculous wars like Iraq (thank you, George W. Bush and Dick Cheney) there are going to be kids who want to keep playing their giant video games, until they finally mature and realize they have to get a job and join society before society eats them alive. That's where Bush completely fell down on the job: he more than happily sent these kids off to war, but provided almost zero resources for them when they got back. They went out and fought my war, and over 4,000 of them died doing it...now sweep the rest under the rug. Thanks, Dubya...

Ian, dude, you should really be embarrassed at that post, as well as all of the other posts you have made in the short month you have been on the vine. My 7 year old has a better grasp of the idea of an intelligible paragraph than you do. Take some remedial English courses with your GI bill please.

Gee, is anyone surprised that a lot of our soldiers have issues like this, once a person takes a life it becomes much easier the next time, some are locked in kill mode and the slightest provocation will click that switch.

Ian Vannoy - please go back to school and learn to spell and write correctly.

Once again, I call BULL$H*T on blaming PTSD for the actions of this gang-banger (those tats didn't signify membership in the VFW). This guy was a $h*tbag who was discharged for being a $h*tbag and it is far more likely his immersion in the one-way dead end street that is the gangsta lifestyle contributed to his violent crimes and early, frozen exit from the planet than military combat service.

I get a kick out of how all the liberal rat bastards blame everything and everyone except the rat bastard who did the murder.

I have no sympathy for the killer. However, the government is ill prepared for returning veterans. I live in Atlanta and a veteran will have to wait up to SIX MONTHS for an MRI. The health care system is almost a joke. This is a disgrace to all who served.

Mosin

I get a kick out of how all the liberal rat bastards blame everything and everyone except the rat bastard who did the murder.

I totally blame the murderer. Must have been a republican as a liberal would never commit such an atrocity, especially on their own people. Isn't it nice to be generalized?

One more thing, blaming Iraq on George W. Bush ALONE will never fly with me, because I was paying attention in 2002 when there were plenty of Democrats beating the war drums with their Republican counterparts (to get those all important "tough on terror" first post 9/11 election votes!) before they developed poll driven amnesia and decided "Bush lied" rather than FIND A BACKBONE and admit THAT ALL PARTIES CONCERNED overreacted in the decision to authorize force in the removal of Saddam!!

As for Afghanistan, I fully supported the decision to remove the Taliban from power and hunt down al-Qaida in 2001, but why are we still there in 2012 and what is our mission and what are our goals there now?? Time to call it a day in both theaters and keep an eye out for the day when Ahmadumba$$ moves beyond threats and backs up his rhetoric with military action !!

C'mon Ian...You're suppose to be representing our country. *sigh...* I would so hate to bring up the army stereotype to compare to other branches.

left wing and right wing policatal did not kill this man nor did it make him kill. if you disagree than you are part to plame cause you voted for them. if you didn't vote than you shouldn't blth til than. think about it pred.ron paul

Another generation of lost souls. War always exacerbates the mental health problems of individuals. Will we ever learn the value of our young men and women?

Paidmyfee said:

The blame lies squarely on the shoulders of the killer, he did this all by himself. As we speak, millions of vets have harmed no one and continue to harm no one. Tens of thousands of vets with PTSD handled themselves well enough to make it through the day and not harm a soul. Ask them and they will tell you they do not blame Park Rangers for their problems and would not harm them.

Blame? Blame this idiot for his acts of stupidity.

You are right. There is no excuse for what this man did - damaged vet, damaged man or whatever. There are millions of vets, they don't kill. He knew what he was doing and chose to do it. Everyone needs an excuse for everything they do now. At least he kept the taxpayer from having to pay for his trial and incarceration!

This guy probably would have done this whether he had been in the military or not. Every time one of these fools pull something like this it seems to always be that they had PTSD. I call BS on that. Where was PTSD when the boys came back from Korea or Nam. PTSD has become a crutch for crimes these fools commit.

from the looks of him I'd say meth had a little to do with it, the guy was a nutcase, quit trying to blame the military, and the person who took the pictures of him with the guns, must have known he was a nutcase

the rements of the gangster hotel are showing up,what the article says about his discharge are not dischargeable offenses, in this type of unit. theres more too this mans background we do not know. he was pissed and he took it out on the innocent. makes a bad name on the gangster motel boys. even though we already had a bad reputation.to be

kicked out of the army when in the unit he was in he had to be beyond bad. he had to be like an anti christ

When people are trained how to kill without feelings or remorse, and then actually have to do it, and then some actually get use to it.......well, you dont just get em to turn it off when you issue discharges. Even if you have never actually had to kill another, when you put soldiers in war zones for months and years at a time, death and violence just becomes acceptable. After all, "collateral damage" covers a wide range of incidents, and can be used to rationalize anything you want after awhile.......

Well, Michael, it's a volunteer army. No one made you agree to invade another country and kill people who hadn't done anything to us.

War is hell, huh?

I hate what this guy did, but I do believe that there are too many men and women who are coming home from the wars and are not getting the treatment necessary to help return to civillian live...and yes not every vet comes home and goes off killing, but there are studies showing higher rates of suicide, and risky behavior that ultimately can lead to death, as well as those who are not continuing with violent behavior, but are depressed, and abuse drugs, and/ or alcohol...they are certainly tough physically, and the military, politicians and the general public expect them to be just as tough emotionally and mentally...in some cases their military service may trigger a mental illness...so yes we need to take care of these men and their families better then we have been...they deserve nothing less.

And even as we speak, there are chickenhawks who want to kick Iran's a$$. Read some other articles and comments.

Iran was no threat to us 10 years ago. Iraq kept them in check. But thanks to the idiotic Iraq war, now we have to deal with an embolden Iran. Heck of a job, Dubya. And company.

Give these servicemen any and all the help they need to lead a normal life.

@ paidmyfee

Complete responsibility of the individual, ay? Your justification for how "Tens of thousands of vets with PTSD" remain sane without any semblance of mental damage is very lacking explanation-wise, fully disregarding and ignoring the tens of thousands of vets with PTSD who are extremely troubled individuals. Have you ever been in a war? I strongly doubt it, and it doesn't take a person with a Psy. D to figure out how horrible such experiences permanently dishevel the human mind. I'd be very un-surprised if you also believe the Death Penalty/Capital Punishment is a "humane" deterrent to murder. Such extraordinary circumstances leading to the death of another human being must be examined both within the guilty assailant, and more importantly the outside influences (i.e. upbringing or lack thereof, how the family treated the person or didn't raise him/her properly, history of being bullied and/or perpetuating the bullying cycle, etc.) to root out the core of the problem. The failure to view these people as mediums of experiencing a living hell through mistreatment of other people is a failure to engage in a reasonable use of logic, a failure to dissect such a difficult situation objectively.

I agree Max....America glorifies aggression and violence...and all of these pointless wars since 1945. Romantic, poetic nonsense about honor, valor, etc is used to justify and glorify them, but what have these wars really accomplished besides giving crazies an opportunity to hunt the most dangerous game?

". . . Although Commanders are conducting tough and realistic training prior to deployment, the high number of returnees diagnosed with PTSD indicates we are not doing enough . . . " There will NEVER be enough that can be done to prepare our children for war. Perhaps, instead, we should do everything we can to NEVER go to war again (especially wars for oil and for benefit of the military-industrial complex, like in Iraq).

To H. Wilson -

I respectfully disagree with your comment ". . . Where was PTSD when the boys came back from Korea or Nam . . . "

Many of our current homeless people are Viet Nam veterans, many Nam vets are drug addicts, many are mentally ill. The things they did and saw there were impossible to deal with and to live with when they got back home. My little town (at the time) in the Midwest sent (drafted) about ten of our boys. None of them has done well since returning. Two of them are dead by their own hand, shortly after returning. One of them, a wonderful, kind, intelligent young man, was my best friend. He laid his head on the railroad tracks and waited for the train to take away his pain.

The blame should rest solely on this man alone. The military is probably the most diverse group of individuals out there. All races, religions, both genders, and everything and anything inbetween. You also get gang members, white and black racists, mexicans and asians that hardly speak english, and some that it is surprising that they were ever in a school let alone got some sort of degree. You also have some of the best people I have ever met. They all come in with problems and the military tries to deal with the ones that they find. Most of the time there is a better story here than what is told. All the success stories of how these people work together to accomplish common goals. About the military taking care of it's Soldiers, it becomes almost annoying with the classes and lectures and paperwork they have you do. Every time someone else tries to ask you about how you are feeling or do you feel this, can we have someone talk to you. The military does try to help but they can't make someone express themselves or try to get help. Is it bad that a few have slipped through, yes but compared to the amount that have been helped, it is minute. It is like police officers, when we see one do something bad, it's not their training or the stuff they have seen because there are very many good police officers. It was one bad one. Same with the military. You will get that one guy that is just nuts and happens to have worn a military uniform. Also to throw this in, we used to say it's safer in Iraq than in the major cities in America. They each had more American deaths per year than we did in Iraq.

I am (obviously from the screen name) a disabled Vet and part of that disability is PTSD. I have spent many years fighting the biggest war against the Veterans Administration because of the crap that they have put me through many many times and continues to put me through. But I digress:

Look at the kids tats and the pics of him with his "thug profile" (holding the rifle and uzi like a "gangsta"). This boy was obviously an issue before joining and managed to try and get a free ride and easier life. He responded like many in his generation: get told something you dont like by authority figure and go off the deep end. This is the truth.

-For those that blame any President: grow up and get a life. You probably, regardless of the story, go straight to politics as a blame. Once again, grow up. There was more enlistments upon the events of Sept 11th because they felt they had an obligation to serve their country and good on them for that. Currently there are many getting through the wire because they can "act right" long enough to get into the system.

PTSD is a real thing but this idiot was obviously troubled and didnt like authority too much before he got into the service. PTSD may had a small part in it but as mentioned I have PTSD and I am not currently on a bell tower (cant get internet up there....only kidding).

There has always been PTSD, it was just never recognized. Remember the Patton slapping incident?

And why exactly was my comment collapsed? Too popular anti-war, anti-stupidity post?

Shame on you!

Michael-3842950-First, thank you very much for your service. It is not said enough and I for one would like to thank you and every other service member for what you did. I respect your post. It is sad that our men and women cannot open up and accept help. You are right, our military is made to be tough and not show weakness. My best friend was a Marine and boy, you never saw weakness, even when it was warranted. These people are supossed to be tough and you are right, how would everyone look at you? Very sad, because it is a realy thing and should be dealt with.

This man was a bag of trouble. He is NOT what we want representing our military. He was discharged for being trouble. It is men, and women, like him that cause the military to have a black eye. He was a time bomb that unfortunately went off and some innocent person paid the price.

PTSD is real people. Some of you are posting that we are always blaming it and whether you agree or not it is a real thing. I would like to see how you would be if you had to witness the things our military see. I have a brother in the military who was there, and he won't talk about it. I can't imagine the things he saw being in medical. The little bit he has managed to say, are clues enough that I for one would never want to see those things. I don't like war, I don't always agree with it, BUT... I will always respect the people who are there. They didn't start they war, they were just instructed to fight it. They do not deserve to be treated poorly because you disagree.

Lastly, to disabled_vet, thank you as well. My three uncles and my father all fought in Vietnam. I come from a long line of military. I remember how horribly those vets were treated and it is sad that they were treated that way. My uncles suffered tremendously from PTSD. So I for one will always thank any VET for their service.

THANK YOU!!

Glockhead, no, just the opposite.

Max^108:

This country would have ceased to exist long ago if more than a fraction of people thought the way you do. So instead of fighting to preserve our way of life, and yes, that includes sending our sons and daughters to fight in our national interest, we just lay down and let the rest of the world walk over us. If you are so ignorant and lame brained that you cannot see the larger strategic reason we were in Iraq and later Afghanistan, I pity you.

We have spent billions upon billions in the middle east to preserve peace and freedom of transit in the Persian Gulf since 1991. Our incursion in Iraq was in the hope that we could stabilize the region by founding a moderate Arab democracy in its heart. The pretext might have been faulty: WMDs but the intent and reasoning were sound, and only time will tell whether we owe George W. a big thank you. The cost, relative to our population, the overal stakes, and potential benefits was small, especially when compared to past wars. PTSD? Well in my opinion its probably over diagnosed just like ADD and a host of other "disorders". Yes I am sure that it exists and has since the start of protracted modern warfare began. But just like a lot of other disorders diagnosed by so called mental health professionals, they have a vested interest in seeing a problem in every patient because it means $$$$ to them in the form of years of therapy that will never end.

To blame the guys violent problems on PTSD is a laugh. It is obvious he had problems before as a kid. Smucks like you who refuse to man up and serve their country make it necessary for the military to accept @!$%# for brains like the perp in order to protect the country. We probably need to reinstate the draft or just fold up shop and let the Muslims, Chinese and Mexicans take over. The first think the first two groups would do is round up clowns like you and put a bullet in the back of your head.

Mudrake, you see vested interest of psychologists in over diagnosing the health problems, but not the vested interest of the US industrial military complex in starting and continuing needless wars? Maybe warmongering is in your self interest?

The current wars and current military buildup are not in the interest of the American people. They only benefit war business and big oil. US has sponsored the violent takeover of Iran by the Shah in order to benefit US oil companies. Nothing has changed today, it just costs the US taxpayer a lot more to wage those dirty wars. But if you like them, here is what you can do: volunteer for active duty there and pay for it out of your own pocket. Lucky for me that I served shortly AFTER the insanity of Vietnam, another dirty useless war people like you rooted for.

Have you ever been in a war? I strongly doubt it, and it doesn't take a person with a Psy. D to figure out how horrible such experiences permanently dishevel the human mind. I'd be very un-surprised if you also believe the Death Penalty/Capital Punishment is a "humane" deterrent to murder. Such extraordinary circumstances leading to the death of another human being must be examined both within the guilty assailant, and more importantly the outside influences (i.e. upbringing or lack thereof, how the family treated the person or didn't raise him/her properly,

Three tours in this last one, 27 years time in service, retired E7, my Dad was a paratrooper in the 101st and jumped D-Day and Holland, he also served a tour in the Israeli military. I'm fine, gainfully employed and a civilian. My Dad owned and operated his own business for 30 years, employed 50 people, grossed a few million a year and kept those people employed, insured and fed for decades.

Of course results may vary, some people take things badly, some people are just looking to earn a living crying PTSD in lieu of working.

Go do a little research on this particular killer, he was probably a trouble maker in school, PITA in the military and was a disaster as a civilian.

He knew right from wrong, probably since he was three and he chose to do wrong. He chose of his own free will. Looking into his background to justify his behavior is simply a means to justify his behavior.

Plenty of people with troubled pasts and living troubled lives harmed no one today. They made the choice to be decent humans.

This guy is to blame for his actions,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,period.

Considering the fact that more than 25% of applicants for Army service couldn't even pass the entrance exam last year I'm going to have to disagree with you on the notion that the military is a "refuge for failures who can't find a way to make a living otherwise". Military service actually demands a tremendous degree of intellect and technical aptitude combined with a common sense not common among most Americans these days. That being said mental illness has *always* stalked those who have served whether they be volunteer or draftees. We call it PTSD, now. In previous conflicts the same syndrome simply went by different names: "shell shock" and "battle fatigue" have been common afflictions suffered by many who have seen combat. It's only natural. There is no way to ferret out who will be able to handle it and who won't. There's no way to truly prepare for the hell that is war. Humans are, indeed, just that and we naturally recoil from the destruction and violence visited upon other human beings who are not so unlike ourselves. Military science has become better at it, recently, than ever before but psychological testing and combat prep are still imperfect at best.

I absolutely agree that we cannot isolate ourselves from the ever more intricately interconnected world. It didn't work in the last century; it didn't work for any other nation that tried it; it certainly won't work for the US. That being said the military will remain a necessary component of our ability to both keep in step and hold our own with the rest of the world.

In a sense you are right that the all volunteer military is a problem when to few people step up to serve,running multiple wars is a lot to ask,however this problem that we need to look at is multiple deployments with little or no downtime and a belief of the brass that it show a weakness to admit to some dysfunction with the boots as a result of long multiply tours,and the fact when they come home to discharge and weak support,no jobs a dysfunctional gov. this is a recipe for disaster.

Are you kidding??? "Refuge for failures who cant find a way to make a living otherwise"??? Clearly you are ignorant - do you have ANY idea of a soldiers life at all???? I am the very PROUD mother and aunt of 3 soldiers. My son scored almost a perfect score to enter the Armed Forces. He graduated in the top 10% of his high school class of almost 600 students. Before you stigmatize ALL soldiers, get a clue!!!! There are bad apples in every situation, not just the military. Why doesn't the press ever cover the heroes???? There are MANY.

AngieS...I totally agree with You. Thank you for being a voice of reason.

Long gone are the days when a juvenile would get into trouble and the judge would say, "Go into the Military or go to jail, take your pick"!!!!

The aptitude required of the "common" grunt in today's military far exceeds the abilities of the drop-outs we are producing.

Armymo, the issue here is that the heroes you are talking about are likely to come home with PTSD or whatever name one uses for the psychological damage inflicted by war.

Angie is right -- in all generations, in all wars, servicemen and women have suffered from it. Healthy human beings cannot be trained to kill other human beings without some kind of psychological damage.

That is one reason why war needs to become a thing of the past. It cannot become a thing of the past, however, so long as there is such terrible inequity between rich people and poor people, rich countries and poor countries.

Nobody -- anywhere -- should have to fear for the safety of their family, to wonder where - and when - their next meal will come from, or to live with the degradation of poverty. Most people prefer to live their lives in peace. Most people, anywhere, want to live -- work, raise families, get an education, have fun, spend time with family and friends -- free from fear, free from want, free to speak, free to worship.

As long as there are people who enrich themselves at great cost to others, as long as there are countries that enrich themselves at great cost to others, as long as there are corporations that (I refuse to use the word 'who' for a corporation) excuse - or even encourage - harmful behavior in the interest of profits, there will be inequity -- there will be fear -- there will be wars.

And there will be young men and women leaving the armed services with serious psychological problems.

"War is over if you want it."

Debbie - I spent eight years on active duty and eleven years in the reserves, as what I suppose you would consider as an ignorant enlisted soldier in the Army. I remained an enlisted soldier in the reserves even though I had an MBA from one of the top three programs in the world. All my closest friends are those I served with and I am in no way intellectually superior to most of them. Now after many years of hard work and 100 plus hour weeks I am happily part of the 1% that Occupy Wall Street loves to hate. So please explain to me how your generalization of the volunteer force makes any sense at all? I can't be both the ignorant person who can't make it in the real world and also someone who is vilified for overachieving in school and work. If you had ever spent time around draft militaries you might have a clue but I doubt you have. If China ever attacks us yes we will need a draft but only as a last resort and please spend some time reading actual books instead of the Internet as Korea was in no way a truly necessary conflict, few of them ever are, but that is a political decision not a military one.

"There is no way to ferret out who will be able to handle it and who won't."

I would say the ones who can handle it, are sociopaths...plain and simple.

and that shouldnt make ANYONE feel better...rather, it should remind us not to wage wars that serve a purpose OTHER than protecting America.

and neither of the two most recent qualify.

when a nation attacks us, directly...then and ONLY THEN are we protecting ourselves.

ya know, in the same way WE attacked Iraq and Afghanistan, short of that...we are engaging in wars of choice, that serve purposes beyond anything admirable. these kids shouldnt be dying, or killing, so that BP and some high level officials can make sweet oil deals, and get fat payouts for getting pipelines run through notoriously difficult regions before...

as for those mountains filled with precious metals and minerals in afghanistan...we arent ever getting our greedy grubby fingers on it, and as such...mission completely wasted...never to be accomplished.

sf18cspook - for all the hardwork you've put in, how much has your connections in the military world help you land in the 1%?

You dont need to answer, because your answer cant be trusted - one way or the other.

rather, do some deep reflective thinking about that...

It seems, the ones who make the most...always seem to think it's all their own doing, all because they worked hard...and if someone DOESNT make it to the top, they clearly...didnt work hard enough.

note, most of us DONT WANT to be in the 1%...most of us DONT WANT to be that dickhead who thinks their hardwork warrants that kind of ridiculous money.

most of us want to love and enjoy our families, not slave away so we can say "but I worked so damn hard, I deserve these billions, I gave up my entire family and worked 140 hrs a week, damn right I deserve all this damn money"....

no, most of us dont want to be THAT...ever.

doesnt mean we dont deserve ENOUGH...for how hard we do work, even if that hard work isnt as hard as you were willing to work...

I agree with Lil'Debbie, the military is a refuge for failures: alcoholics, drug addicts, sociopaths, thieves, rapist etc. The military throughout history has always attracted this element. At least with the draft, theoretically all segments of our society were expected to participate in the defense of the country, not just the poor from rural and urban areas.

As the previous SMA Ken Preston put it 7 out of 10 aren't eligible for enlistment due to mental, physical, legal, or education reasons.  Out of the remaing 3 out of 10 there are 1.5 that have no interest which leaves 1.5 out of 10 as a potential recruit.  That said there has been an increase int the number of waivers for a criminal record.

In 2006, the Army approved 901 waivers for felony convictions, compared to 411 such waivers in 2003. About 10 percent of the moral waivers approved in 2006 were for felony convictions. Serious criminal history waivers also grew, from 2,700 in 2003 to more than 6,000 in 2006.

That said as BM stated the days when the judge can do that are long gone. So are the days when the remedy to a National Guard Soldier going AWOL was to send his butt to the Regular Army.

Angie - nobody disagrees that the military is highly demanding technically and morally and all that. Point is that the overall *quality* of the people entering it over the past decade or so is declining, and a lot of them might not be up to satisfying those requirements.

Evidence for that isn't just anecdotal - plenty of that if you talk to NCOs who've been around since the `80s and `90s. Most of the ones I know are quite open about the fact that there are a lot more problem soldiers nowadays who wouldn't have been inducted into the military at all if it hadn't been for the recruitment crunch caused by the wars. There's concrete evidence to back them from the numerous published reports about the explosion in the number of waivers granted to admit people who, back in the `90s, would not have been inducted. So that 25% figure of people turned away is irrelevant - if it weren't for the relaxing of the standards maybe it would've been 40% or 50% or who knows what.

Not saying that we should return to the draft (perhaps we should, perhaps not - either way besides the point), but to deny that the *overall* quality of the personnel inducted into the military is in decline, despite all the evidence, is kind of like stuffing the ears and going "na, na, na, na - I can't *hear* you"

This isn't to take away from all the good service that the overwhelming majority of our military personnel are doing. Just saying that they have to do their job alongside a whole lot more bad apples than was the case before, and the reason for the increased number of bad apples is obviously the recruitment crunch of the mid `00s that was caused by the wars, and the resultant recruitment corner cutting that was necessary to address it. That's just a fact that can't be seriously denied.

Folks there is already a population of widows, mothers, and other family members of dead soldiers and veterans who have gone crazy with PTSD, killed people, committed suicide, etc. Why not ask them what they know about it? Ask Ashley Joppa Hagemann. See her testimony on YouTube in August, and today on Facebook.

Well said Ian! I think...

Lil Debbie, I always wonder what makes people like you make moronic statements such as the Army being a refuge for failures. Nothing is further from the truth. I began my service at the end of the Vietnam war era when there were still draftees and those draftees were the majority of the problem. They didn't want to be there and made no bones about it. Today's Army is more professional than ever with people serving that want to serve. You really ought to have a clue about something before you open your mouth and spill whatever moronic thought might pop in your head.

The problem with people like you is that you base all your knowledge on a few headlines full of hype. The vast majority of people in the military are upstanding citizens doing a difficult job in a professional manner. You want to paint the whole military with a crazy brush just as the press did with Vietnam veterans. A lie. A huge lie. The real liars were people like John Kerry during the Vietnam era. There's no doubt that a few bad apples spill into every walk of life. This kid couldn't even make it in the military. He was discharged for misconduct. That's no reason to paint all others with a broad brush. You are truly clueless.

What? ian

Jessica, you are also a truly clueless person. You know, the type chanting with the OWS people or somewhere chanting, "Yes we can."

Sounds like Ian inherited his way into the 1% with that Grammar and punctuation

Gabriel, maybe we can get Rusty to translate for us. ;-)

Hopefully, Ian's still partying from the New Year's.

Rustyboy-FL

Ian is his own worst enemy and you're too blinded by your own ideology to see it. You're also too blind to see that this is just a consequence of mass-producing armed psychos for the last 9 years in Iraq, and then bringing them back to an America in which guns are cheap and plentiful. Yes gun nuts, the more guns there are really does increase the chances of them falling into the wrong hands. And this is just the tip of the iceberg - all because of the right-wing's evil, violent, self-serving ideology. In the end, this woman's two young children are going to have to pay the price for conservative's unimaginable moral ineptitude. And that's not a political statement; it's a fact.

you are kind person that destroying this contry you faild to be sugsefull so you blame it on the one percent that is extreamly sugsefull so you say it all there falt then wen you see militery you say owe there just insane or dysfuncshnl case they sugseed and serv the system you hate and second thing im proued of being the part the 1% becase that the percent the population that joind the militery during the war wile folks like you had it easy for the last 10 years

Ian - Really? Are you serious? I've never in my life seen such atrocious grammar, punctuation and spelling. You are a very sad example of the quality of education dispensed by the schools in this country.

@AngieS : Though I do agree with the bulk of what you are saying, I must disagree with the implication that the failure rate for qualifying for the military in the US is tantamount to proof that you must be intellectually superior to get in.

The ASVAB I took back in 1989 was rudimentary. Literally no more difficult than the CTBS testing that used to be done in grade school. My classwork was all advanced placement throughout school and I actually blew through the test without erasing anything and scored a 94 out of 99 (missing the exact problem I skipped because I didn't feel like completing it and knew it was unnecessary), which meant every subsequent visit to MEPS or my recruiter's office ending up in a meet and greet with people in the nuclear and Fire Control programs and endless "benies" being dangled.

At the time, anything above a 70 and you were looking at the advanced programs with re-enlistment bonuses, advanced paygrade at conclusion of boot, choice of duty (deployment location) within reason, etc. You were considered as having elite intelligence. I can tell you now, that I cannot conceive of what it would have taken to have scored a 70 on the test I took. I couldn't have deliberately missed that many answers. This after realization that I could have scored as low as a 31 and still enlisted; albeit with far fewer rate and program options.

I mean seriously. There was not a single question on the math part of the test that extended me into even 7th grade studies. And that's not speaking of what I studied in 7th grade, but the pre-Algebra that was being taught in the regular classes. In California, that's topping out at 12 years old.

My experience is with enlistment into the Navy, where really there is no "cannon fodder" rate, or level of enlistment equivalent to what most would refer to as "a grunt", where the entire job consists of run, hide, climb, shoot, and die in a grotesque military manner. With the limits of deployment on an isolated ship comes less ability to tolerate people whose only skill is to float. But it still would only have taken a 34-40 to get in.

My purpose is not to beat my own drum. Indeed, i wish I could impart to you just how little that test could tell you about my intelligence as it pushes so few boundaries. My actual intended purpose here is to say that the percentage of failures does not illustrate how smart the passers were, but what a large amount of complete cognitive train wrecks we are passing through the school systems. So you can take a closer look at how unbelievably ineffective our educational system really is.

And the scariest part of this is how much it is costing these kids and their parents to leave school with degrees while being only inches farther along from this level of stupidity.

@PoorTaxPayer; You should change your name to PoorExcuseofaHumanBeing. Where do you get off blaming Obama for this. This whole mess was Bush's sideshow (with major encouragement from Dick Cheney and his Haliburton friends, and I emphisize the Dick portion of his name). Quit your teabagging on this forum you troll.

@sf18cspook; You say you work 100 hours plus a week? There are only 168 hours in a week dude. If you worked every day of the week and put in 100 hours, that would only leave you 9 hours, 42 minutes and 52 seconds to eat, sleep, bath, travel to and from home, etc. I gotta say, I don't believe you when you say you work 100 plus hours/week.

To all of you who criticize the guy's wife for getting a restraining order against him, he was acting like a physcopath and she feared for her life and that of their child. What was she supposed to do, stay with the nut, live in constant fear and possibly see herself and her child assaulted or even butchered by this punk? Would any of you keep yourselves or your children in such a situation? I didn't think so.

@Mike Davis,

I was being very sarcastic. I'm sorry you missed that.

You need to follow me more.

Welcome to the crazy side of the Vine.

There are reasonable posts and those that are completely unintelligible.

That one from Ian was one of those.

What a world.

Rhynn - I forgot about the ASVAB (took mine 20 years ago). Now that I think about it, it *was* so easy it was a joke - ended up scoring something that they told me was pretty high, but that didn't seem like it warranted the stir since the whole thing was such a cakewalk.

Thing though is that the ASVAB isn't the whole story - other than to weed out the completely inept, since inability to pass it (20 years later, I still remember a question asking one to identify a drawing of a screwdriver) means a person is probably not minimally prepared for life, let alone military life. Once I got to my unit (light infantry), there were plenty of folk who'd scored way lower than me on their ASVAB, but who, as things turned out, were way better soldiers. If you'd asked some of them back then about Frank leaving on a train from Philly that does 70 miles an hour and Jack leaving on one from Boston doing 110 miles who'd get to NYC first if conditions X, Y, or Z obtained (not sure if that was an ASVAB type question or if w/ the passage of years I'm confusing it w/ the SAT or LSAT - but you get the point), they'd probably still be sitting on that desk trying to figure it out. But they didn't need that for their job. When it came to relevant stuff - in the terrain in front of you, what's the best place to set up a TOW platoon, mounted or dismounted, to deny this area to armor, or how to maintain their equipment, and finding that intangible that lets them motivate their comrades or subordinates to keep on trucking in adverse conditions - that they knew how to do exceptionally well.

Beginning with the viet nam war, warfare has had to be conducted in a "politically correct" manner by our American servicemen and women. We now have rules of engagement, even though no one else does. If we try to soften up the enemy with bombings, every news channel runs footage of civilian casualties (although I think Obama's been given a helluva break when compared to the coverage during the Bush era.) Political correctness has protracted all of these skirmishes taking them from a duration of months out to several years. In the future when the US engages an enemy we need to have a legitimate goal, a viable plan, a budget and a schedule for completion that we make happen. Get in, get done and get out.

It truly amazes me how many people think they know something about PTSD ... Unless you have this syndrome or you've been a victim from its violence - I'm sorry but you don't know jacks%^t ...

My husband sits in a jail cell this very moment because he assaulted me ... why, because he has what our Government physicians once called PTSD but now TBI (Traumatic Brain Injury)

Our United States Government (VA) jacked my husband up on a cocktail of anti-psychotic medications without properly monitoring his progress. People ... You don't give a Soldier or Veteran suffering from severe depression and suicidal thoughts a medication that only elevates the symptoms tenfold. The military and VA's answer to PTSD aka TBI is Benzodiazepines ... my husband was prescribed a very dangerous one called Ativan (Lorazepam) when mixed with sleeping meds can trigger psychotic episodes such as when my husband forced a gun in my mouth and told me he was going to kill me. At that moment, all I could do was pray because I knew he didn't know what he was doing, and to this day he has no recollection because this is another side effect of BZ drugs ... memory loss. This is happening all over the United States, jail cells are filling up with soldiers and vets, and very soon they'll be overflowing from Afghanistan. I know this is what happened to the young man in question in this news report, and I pray for everyone involved that they can heal from this tragedy.

The question at hand is when is the United States Military and Veteran's Administration going to quit messing with our soldiers and Vets lives when they know damn well as researched by many authorities on mental health medications that BZ medications are very dangerous, and can cause severe consequences to the patients life if not monitored correctly. If you are or you know someone who is taking a Benzodiazepine medication for anxiety ... please! Dump that sh&t down the toilet as quickly as you can before it's too late. These medications induce murderous thoughts, suicidal tendencies, extreme aggressive behavior, memory loss and disinhibition (like an alcohol effect which makes you do, say or think things you would not normally do). They give you this information in fine print but do not like to go over in detail because they think it's a quick fix. It is highly advised that anyone with a mental health problem is advised that they should not be on a BZ for more than a month's time. How do I know this? Because I've done months of research on these drugs to help fight for my husband's freedom. And once more, to help fight for every other soldier and Vet now incarcerated because of the lack of concern by our Government on what they are doing to these men and women. It's going on all over this country and it will only get worse until someone does something about the way medications are prescribed to our men and women in uniform. Please, if you care about this issue write or call your local congressman ... you could be the next victim.

Show me one unit in Iran or Afghanistan that suffer the causality rate of the 507th PIR in Normandy and I'll buy into PTSD. This guy was a in trouble troubled mental case before he joined the service.

Ziyena68 - Your husband may come back, some never make it back. No matter what he will never be the person you married.

I married a saint, she lived through 10 years of hell to be with me. Then I spent the next 30 years trying to make it up to her. Actually it will be 40 years total next September. I often wished I could be different but it took a lot of work for me just to function in society and in our relationship.

The government has been abandoning their soldiers ever since we had a country, it is nothing new. There are always a few politicians that make a few speeches and things change for a while but it isn't long before the Scoundrels and Thieves in Washington find something more important to spend their money on.

Devil's Son ... have some fu*&ing respect! My husband severed both 507th PIR at Fort Bragg and the 173RD ABN from Vicenza, Italy ... not in Normandy ... not in Vietnam ... but in Iraq! As a sniper and door kicker, he watched seven of his young soldiers get blown up. It doesn't fricking matter if you served during WWII, or patrolling for Viet Cong ... or Al Qaeda ... every war is different and no matter what, they come back fu&^ked up in the head. So please don't go there ... I am a casualty of war myself, a military wife assaulted by her PTSD husband who now sits in jail fu&^ed up by medications and she can't do anything to help him.

Even as a victim of this war ... I still know the code of ethics ... Leave no soldier behind.

Jessica - speak for yourself, but as for the rest of us, without a doubt most of us *do* want to be in that 1%. The only reason the 1% maintains its position is that the majority of the rest of us dream, whether with a realistic basis for that dream or not, that we, or at least somebody close to us, will make it to that 1% someday.

Most people don't want to be dickheads, but of *course* we want to be fabulously rich. Family can be enjoyed a whole lot more if, instead of spending hours worrying about the bills and household income vs expenditure so much that you get ulcers and high blood pressure and otherwise shave a decade off your life with financial stress, you can provide them with the best that money can buy be it a residence or healthcare or education, and take them on an annual vacation to the Riviera or Machu Pichu or the Great Wall of China or wherever else you feel like. Wealthy families are, statistically, a lot closer and more tightly knit that financially strapped ones.

Although wealth and dickishness often go together, the one doesn't always guarantee the other - so I guess most would like to think that they'll be cool millionaires, and not turn out to be dic*s if they made it to that 1%. And if it meant being a di*k, you'd be surprised how many wouldn't mind being dic*s to the rest of humanity if it meant being free of the financial stresses the 99% have to worry about :D

PTSD LMFAO!!

I was in Desert Storm. Our unit went in early, killed a bunch of bad guys, destroyed our targets, and completed our mission. It was fun! None of us had any "Syndromes". LOL!

The liberal media like MSNBC has a hardon for the US military and blames everything on them. One of the first paragraphs of this story said this guy was a loser long before joining the army. But of course this left-wing reporter wants to blame the military.

Liberals! God love em! LOLOLOL!

What people fail to realize is that people with PTSD have a jacked up level of adreneline that never returns to a normal level. This means that they cruise around at 30 MPH, while everyone else is going from 0-10 mph. This is day in and day out before anything gets them wound up, they are already feeling that effect of the increase or just on alert all the time.

Yes PTSD is real and they do not know why it occurs. It just does. It has nothing to do with being weak minded, it has to do with Brain chemistry.

I also fail to see what he did in the Army. He may not have even been exposed to as much as the public is being led to believe. He may have just been an a**h&^$ and the excuse is being made that he suffered from PTSD. Now, we will never know.

Angie- My dad was a veteran of Korea and he was bayonetted in the hand when his Marine unit was trying to take a hill. He shot the head off of the guy who did that to him. I knew my father had been wounded in Korea, but never knew the details, as he never spoke of it.

Fifty years after the incident, my son was doing a project for Veteran's Day at school and had to talk with a veteran. One of the questions they had to ask was if this person was wounded in the conflict and what happened. My dad told him about it - even though he had Alzheimers and was pretty forgetful by that time, he could remember this like it had just happened. He also said he would have nightmares for weeks when he talked with my son about it because the memories were so vivid and frightening. I finally realized why my dad never talked about it when I was a kid. In that era, men were expected to keep a stiff upper lip and push the memories into the back of their minds. I wonder how many men from Korea and WWII kept these things bottled up inside of them.

Not that PTSD is an excuse for doing what this guy did - it isn't. It can explain the behavior, but it is not an excuse for the behavior.

I now teach in South Korea... On a visit to the UN War Memorial in Busan two years ago, I had a senior Korean man walk up to me, a total stranger, and with tears in his eyes, thank me... I've never served... Just wanted it to be known that the sacrifice is appreciated by at least some of those for whom the sacrifice was made... I suspect the same is true for all of the "conflicts" since Korea too...

You will never hear about it on CNN or MSNBC, but there are those who know the sacrifice and appreciate it...

Korea was a way that the US gov't got to put permanent military bases on the Asian continent in the wake of the Japanese military surrender in China and Korea in 1945. Nothing more important than military bases to an imperial power.

craig -- there are so many stories like your father's!

Neither my father nor my uncle -- both of whom served in World War II -- would talk about their experiences. I think that was typical for World War II vets. Part of the problem, too, may have been that heroes' welcome they were given -- and they felt like impostors. They did what they had to. Many did not feel like heroes.

I also remember in the '50's, so many men who had served in the war becoming alcoholics. (Though what was said about them was, "He isn't feeling well." Or "He's had a little too much.") That may have been how they dealt with it.

My generation served in Vietnam. By the end of that war, a lot of servicemen realized that what they were sent over for had nothing to do with defending our country. That they were on a fools' errand. Many of them opposed the war they were fighting in. When they got back, there wasn't a heroes' welcome. Some were able to cross back into civilian life. Many weren't. Drugs joined alcohol as the tool of forgetting.

And many who had appeared to put their lives together found themselves suffering debilitating depression in middle age. (Actually, all of my friends who are Vietnam vets!)

The veterans from the Middle East are coming home to a heroes' welcome, but everything else is empty. There don't seem to be enough resources to give them the interventions they really need. There are few if any jobs available to them. And this nation they fought for is becoming an empty shell owned by the corporations to whom its functioning is being outsourced.

Seriously! They thought they were fighting for America, not Halliburton. Imagine how they must feel when they learn how much of their country has been bought out. No wonder many of them are joining the Occupy movement!

Vietnam vets support Occupy.

PTSD is real ,our military have seen alot of death and distruction .and the pills are bad I was put on them made me worse I would tell my VA doc I didnt like them so they put me on all kinds of others, and if I was going to kill my self I would have at least a 1000 pills to do it with,, You have civilians running the VA no @!$%#ing clue about PTSD just went to school for it Duh and to think we have protected people that dont give a @!$%# about whats going on may god forgive you,or have mercy on your soul......

Flip the coin here:

He was reported never to have fought on the front lines in Iraq---Experts have said he did not have PTSD, but was another American Kook.

Yes, we do have Kooks in the US Military---why don't they screen these people more closely.

It is his family who said he had PTSD---not a diagnosed illness with from a doctor.

Look at all the weirdo tattoos---this explains how crazy this guy was.

The people who serve, and come back seek help these days from the US Military therapists. This one never did.

There are 2 sides to this story, and one lovely woman Park Ranger is dead, and 3 people shot the night before.

Always look behind your back. The US has too many crazies running around---never trust chance encounters---this was a random murder.

The family as usual is protecting his name and honor. No honor here.

Shadowself:

Correct in your analogy..

american sailor,

Shipmate, There is one medication that has shown to be quite effective in treating PTSD. It's called Marijuana . You can even get a prescription for it in many states, just not through the VA.

Stg2 Ishmael vietnam Vet 72-78

Nice American Girls DON'T Talk to China sailors.

i think 1 small detail in all of this just might be by chance overlooked in all of this. i served in the US Army, i may not have served during war time, but i served, i served proudly, i got to the best i could be, and decided it wasnt for me, not action. Due to personal reasons i was unable to enlist, until i missed the cutoff date for age.

However, I serving in the military, during the whole time serving, i met all types of people. Good people, bad people, thieves, criminals, religious, to sadist.. Racists, rapists... ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE to include MURDERS! I also while serving, was able to visit SEVERAL BASES touring my time in the military, MArine, Naval, Airforce..... and not one of those branches had soldiers with much better morals, other than the Marines. I tell ya, you can call me any name you want, yet i think before we coddle our troops with an ez ticket due to PTSD needs to be taken into some serious consideration.

The military does not look at your morals, your character, anything other than if you are a felon, have some mental or physical problem that would consider you more a suicide victim than a soldier, all due respect to all those with those issues who wanted to serve, and couldnt for those reasons.

Part of when i served, it taught me one of several good things, being honest with myself. If i cant do that, i cant be honest about anything. i served with a lot of great men and women... and i know even greater men and women served with life during this time of war. Our troops are heros... those who served we do owe a credit to... but not everyone who joined was a good person, nor did serving make them a better person. The military will change you in ways you can not imagine.. but its how you apply those changes that makes you the person you are today. Some joined to bring death, justice.. some served for the cool toys... some served for honor, and to be a great part of keeping this nation free... i wish i could keep a blind eye, but we should realise, even like the guy who went on a killing spree at ft hood, some people are just bad news, and they do join the military some to hone the bad person they want to be, into an even worse person. you meet them all when serving. so i think measures should be taken to figure out, was this person like this before he/she joined?

There's nothing in this article that specifically supports the PTSD theory as it relates to this young man. However, on a much grader scale, our returning vets are suffering in a multitude of ways. They were given drugs to keep them up and drugs to make them sleep, many were deployed over and over again despite their diagnosed mental disorders and, for the first time in our history, despite their physical injuries sans the incapacitating and near total debilitating injuries. Because enlistments reached an all-time low in war time during the Iraq war, there simply were not enough new recruits to take the place of the soldiers already deployed. Yes, there is empirical evidence that war permanently scars the vets mind and soul, and it cannot be disputed. Thankfully, many soldiers were able to assimilate back into civilian society, but many, many others never made that transition, successfully, that is. Whether theirs was a life lost to addiction, suicide, nightmares, quirks and demonstrable aggression and rage, their lives were never the same by any stretch of the imagination. Imagine coming home from Iraq to find your own homeland in dire financial straights with little being allocated to care for their medical/mental health needs, and even less opportunities for work. It's hard all over these days, but it is especially hard for these soldiers who need so much and yet we have so little to give them. What we do give them is woefully underfunded and over-taxed. Being called a hero is fine and dandy, but they're hardly treated like heroes. Once they've retired and/or been sent back home, they have to live with what they've seen, experienced and done. I'm sure more than a few dozen vets are asking themselves: "War. . .what was it good for? Answer: "Absolutely nothing good." Sad. . .nothing but sad.

PTSD is very real. My daughter was a Marine/Combat Engineer. She served in Iraq and had been exposed to abestos when tearing down an old torned building and rebuilding a new one. Because her commander didn't write it up like he was suppose to, the government refuses to acknowledge this happened in Iraq. There were several other incidents with being injured. The only one that they acknowledge were the ones where she ended up in the hospital. When she came back she has problems with rage. One time out of rage she disclosed that she had seen a fellow Marine killed. She angrily left and has since refused to talk about anything else while in Iraq. Her fiance, also a Marine, served several years and served 2 tours in Afghanistan and 1 year in Iraq. He has had many injuries as well. The most serious was when the vehicle he was in had run over a bomb. He was in serious condition, but the rest of the men were dead. He still has shrapnel inside of him. One is in his head which needs to be removed. Surgery will be dangerous due to where it is located. The government use to pay for these injuries. The military are required to pay for their own insurance that the government selected. Between the horrible experiences some of our military experienced and then be treated by our own government poorly, it is hard to believe that some of our vets can adjust to a normal way of life. I'm sorry if I don't use the right words, but, it is truly sad how our military are treated.

""

In July, the mother of Barnes' young daughter said in court papers seeking a protection order that he "has possible PTSD (post-traumatic stress disorder) issues," NBC station KING of Seattle reported. In seeking sole custody of the girl, she said Barnes was suicidal and "gets easily irritated, angry, depressed and frustrated."

The woman said Barnes had numerous weapons in his home, including firearms and knives, adding: "I am fearful of what Benjamin is capable of with the small arsenal he has in his home and his recent threat of suicide."

WOW!! I'm sure they took his child away from him. As they probably well should have. but I'm sure that did not do his state of depression any good.

So now the Civilian Law knew about this kid!! PSTD...Suicidal....Small arsenal at home. But no one comes to his aid? Puts a suicide watch on him. Gets him psychiatric care ? Let him know there is hope that he can see his child again ?

Just sayin: I 'm guessing this country has more laws than any country in the world. (40,000 new ones this year alone). But no common sense on using them.

If I am a Divorce Judge or Child protection agency Judge. I hear this story, I'm worried, very worried.

I put a temporary restraining order on him, and tell him I will make my final decision after he gets psychiatric care and has a clean bill of health.

In the mean time I'm informing the Local police to keep an eye on this guy.

But thats just my opinion.

Anybody who has read On Combat or On Killing by Lt. Col. Grossman will understand that these are wounded warriors, who need healing and help. The fact is, the only people who are not susceptible to PTSD are the 2% of the population that are sociopaths. Everybody else will eventually get it. Some research even suggests that serial killers are haunted by the faces of their victims in their dreams and the guilt over their act. These are people who need to kill, who suffer from a compulsion to do so. The things we ask soldiers to do, humans aren't meant to do. Everything about the psyche rejects it.

Until we make getting them help, each and every one, the best we can get them, these things will continue to happen. And even if we do, sometimes people will continue to be too broken to function. We're not good at war.

They were given drugs to keep them up and drugs to make them sleep Where were my drugs?? What a rip.
I've seen all of the speculation about combat service I can stand. Bottom line is if you weren't there you don't know $h*t about it and if you try to blame the criminal actions of this loser on military combat service you're full of ......

2BCT 1AD OIF 05-06 OIF 08-09

The mother of this vetern of the Iraq War said he suffered from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. wHO CAN ARGUE WITH THAT? WAR IS HELL.

NEWS FLASH:

It is a documented medical FACT that marijuana is EXTREMELY EFFECTIVE in treating this disorder which was brought on by our own government (president Bushliar) and exascerbated by the REFUSAL TO CHANGE an unjust law and a war on a harmless, yet medicinally helpful plant.

The blood of the forest ranger is CLEARLY ON THE HANDS OF OUR GOVERNMENT. Our goverment, who has lied to us for 75 years about the so called dangers of marijuana, sent this man to Iraq to fight in another war based on lies - the weapons of mass distruction lies. He came home with PTSD. His country refused to help him. Deal with it.

Now I'm freaking out! My youngest son was just stationed at Fort Lewis in the Stryker Brigade, the same unit that was involved in the killing of civilians over there, and will be deploying to Afghanistan next spring. I am deeply concerned and troubled as a mother who definitely needs to learn WHY this base and those deployments are having such a devastating effect on young military people? Maybe they should take a step back and reassess it prior to sending them out there. Don't get me wrong, I'm very proud of my son serving in the military just as I and his father who recently retired from the AF after 27 years did, but I desperately need to know he will be OK and won't be another statistic!

american sailor - Ishmael - Thank You for your Service and Welcome Home. Please read www.riflewarrior.com/vietnam.html PTSD IS real, been there, done that. RivDiv 543, Cua Viet 68/69.

I have one for you, I am a former U.S. Marine, Hon. Discharged. I was in Iraq for a total of 30 months.. I can assure you many our young men and women are not getting the medical attention they desire, or require due to the system itself! Just consider this, you go the the Veterans Hospital, you wait in line to get an initial observation, you then have to wait many times, hours, to get to see a doctor. Then you are either given a prescription, where you have to wait for hours, to get the prescription filled. Or the Doctor gives you an appointment to meet a specialist, many times days, weeks, later! Here's a flip side, I have met, and talked to a veteran, who during the time of the vietnam war, never served in combat, never even in vietnam, but recieves a disability for PTSD! The federal government is so screwed up it is incredible. And if you did what I have done, go do some research on the veterans hospitals, there history, the men that make decisions on what our soldiers should get, after serving in the U.S. Military, you will be very disguisted. Many of our men comming back from Iraq and Afghanstan, have DU poisioning from the rounds being fired upon the enemy! Even the dept of veterans affairs are not acknowledgeing that they our soldiers should get tested for DU poisioning! When if you have DU poisoning, if you have sexual intercourse, you give your wife this crap, and your baby has chromozone damage. The DU screws up your DNA! Our soldiers were lied to about WMD's in Iraq! There were none! IN Afghstan our troops are not allowed to destroy opium poppy, when sense we got there, the production of opium is at it's highest it has ever been! Need I say anymore!

Mark, your comment is BS. Marijuana makes a person more paranoid, which is what people use in the argument that marijuana should be made legal because a person will be so paranoid that they won't go driving, or if they do, they'll drive cautiously after drinking. If someone with PTSD is already paranoid about situations, how the heck is a drug that makes you paranoid going to help? That's bull.

I've had two brothers serve in OIF and my grandfather served in the Navy on Iwo Jima in WWII. My grandfather saw a lot more death than my brothers did, he was a medical assistant and drove the landing boats so he had to pick up the dead and injured and also drive people to their deaths. While I am sure he had PTSD, he did not go around killing people after that. You think we have no way to deal with PTSD now, what about back then? There was NOTHING in 1945. And yet my grandfather was able to make out just fine. Got married after the war, raised a wonderful family and is still an awesome grandfather.

My older brother was injured in OIF and watched one of his buddies die, the only one from their unit who died, in the same incident that took his leg. Yes, he's got PTSD and you can tell. If a car backfires, he jumps. But he's not killing people. And no, he doesn't admit he's got PTSD. I think he feels like he's a burden on his family enough with a missing leg that he doesn't talk about his PTSD, but then he overcompensates for that by trying to be the best father to his kids that he can be. And he does talk about his service quite a bit to people which helps.

My younger brother was at the tail end of OIF, helping turn bases over to Iraqi control. I don't think he has PTSD at all, partly because his mission wasn't to shoot at anyone and he never had to fire his weapon. He and his unit don't feel like they did anything worth mentioning since so many of their counterparts suffered greatly.

My point is, I don't think PTSD should be an excuse for criminal behavior. I think more often than not, for a person to go around killing people with PTSD, they had to have had a problem before that. The article mentions this guy already had serious problems prior to enlistment and was dishonorably discharged. I think in some cases yes PTSD may cause some things, but every time a vet kills someone, I don't think we should blame PTSD. Look at the life the soldier led prior to service. If there's a pattern, DON'T blame PTSD. This guy had a pattern of destructive behavior before the service. Something should have been done long ago.

Liz,

My post is based on FACT, not propaganda which you so willingly and blindly repeat without doing any of your own research.

Let's take your quote about paranoia for openers.

Honey, Marijuana does NOT make people who use it paranoid. Marijuana is illegal. So is robbing a bank. The pot smoker and the bank robber are both afraid of getting caught. PARANIOD is how they feel about getting caught. The BIG difference, bank robbing is a serious crime and pot possession should NEVER HAVE BEEN MADE A CRIME. But pot smokers are indeed WORRIED about getting busted. If the movie "Reefer Madness" is your point of reference to paranoia, I suggest you get educated.

Now, you wanna play the "War Card"? I'll throw you one better: My dad and his brother were both in the Battle of The Bulge. Both of them came home mentally phucked up and if pot were available and legal, they would both have lived a lot longer and would have been a lot happier. Neither one resorted to alcohol or drugs. They just "toughed it out" like "real men', alienating their children and wives in the process.

My cousin did 2 tours in Iraq. He HAS PTSD but because he's a US Marine, he is brainwashed into thinking pot is not an acceptable treatment - politically - even though he smokes it once in a while - hope he doesnt have to take a piss test now - and if he suggested that he wanted to be treated with pot, he would be cut off altogether from the US marines. So he decided to become an alcoholic.

DEAL WITH THAT!!

No Mark, I got my information from articles in many well-respected newspapers and news websites and peer reviewed studies. I've never seen 'Reefer Madness" nor have I even heard of it.

I have friends and know plenty of people who smoke the stuff and they're not worried about the jailtime. I came from a small town where you could easily evade the cops and no one ever got busted unless they were a complete idiot smoking out in the middle of the street. They did act very paranoid after they started smoking and it wasn't the cops they were talking about. One girl showed up to school high and she was freaking out in study hall because I had waved at her. She didn't like how fast my hand moved.

If you actually read my post without bias, as you obviously did not, you would have read how I said YES PTSD OCCURS. I never said anything to the contrary. I was merely stating that PTSD sould not be an excuse for every veteran who commits a crime. Their previous record, if they have one, should be examined. It seems like Mr. Friedman had a prior record with expulsion from school and getting kicked out of the military dishonorably.

How dare you cheapen what my grandfather saw on Iwo Jima! To say that my grandfather didn't come home a different man because he was a medical assistant is so rude! He watched one of his best childhood friends die and saw firsthand the atrocities of war as he had to pick up the wounded and take care of them. Just because he didn't fight doesn't mean he somehow wasn't affected. He had to help patch up the guys that weren't as bad and then send them right back out there and you think that didn't do anything to him? Just because he had huge family support and was able to overcome it? People handle things in different ways.

Oh and I guess my older brother's experience wasn't anything, either. I guess losing your leg and watching your friend die does nothing to a person. Oh yeah, my brother was going to train for the Olympics when he got back home. Now he can't ever run again and you think that didn't affect him at all? That somehow his experience was cheapened because he only had one tour? Maybe he would have had to go through more tours had his leg not been blown off.

So apparently my grandfather and older brother don't have PTSD because they don't hate their lives and aren't turning to drugs. Nice logic. I'm not saying everyone needs to tough it out like a real man, nor did I EVER say that. If you need help, by all means, don't hesitate to ask for it! I was just trying to provide examples of people who came home changed by war that DIDN'T fly off the handle. That was not trying to cheapen anything your family members experienced, but merely trying to show others that soldiers can come home and fall back into a new kind of normal without going and shooting other people up! That's all I was saying and then you take it to a new level by insulting what my family has gone through.

My sister went through depression after her son died of a rare disease. She decided she needed a therapist. In no way am I trying to demean those who need therapy. Again, my point was to say that not all soldiers with PTSD come home and want to shoot up the world!

My whole post was not a response to yours, merely the first paragraph was. The rest of my post was in response to people trying to blame PTSD for crime. What about all the people who senselessly kill others without being in wartime such as BTK?

"No Mark, I got my information from articles in many well-respected newspapers and news websites and peer reviewed studies. I've never seen 'Reefer Madness" nor have I even heard of it."

Clearly YOU are the BS artist here. What "articles and "well respected newspapers"? Didja have any idea at all that every single source you mentioned is GOVERNMENT SPONSORED? Do you have any idea what "government sponsorship" is or means?????????????????

It means THEY HAVE A VE$TED INTERE$ST IN LYING TO YOU - A VE$STED INTERE$T IN KEEPING YOU BRAINWASHED.

Do you ever visit NORML.org? Or mpp.org? Or SAFERCHOICE.org?

And do you really expect me to believe that you have never even heard of "Reefer Madness"?

You are either a LIAR, A GOVERNMENT TROLL or a COMPLETE PHUCKING MORON to have have authored what you just posted.

Either way, you are unworthy of American citizenship. YOU BELONG IN JAIL WHERE YOU CAN'T HARM FREE CITIZENS ANYMORE.

And as far as you other accusations, I never denied the experiences your family encountered. I only trumped them with mine. My father was forced to EXECUTE 19 Germans ala LT. William Calley in Viet Nam. This is a a WAR SECRET. My father NEVER got over it, being a de Catholic and all.......

Your family's experience does not trump mine.

typo corrected: "being a devout Catholic and all........."

When Ronny Rayguns decided to open the wound of Auchwictz, my father public wept "Why do you have to raise the dead?"

I know what war is. What war means. And what unjust laws are and there consequences.

Clearly, you do not.

or he just slipped on ice and fell, perhaps trying to end his miserable life that way...

what a waste of yet another young man who fell for the lies of the War Machine... very sad story...

The real costs of these useless wars will be with us for the next 80 years, we talk about treatment centers, almost none are functional; Congress has more important matters to attend to, vacations, PAC money, photo opt's, seminar sessions in Hawaii, Las Vegas, private resorts and first class travel ; it must be really tough to be a Congressperson.

On second thought, if it was a bear, the body would have been gnawed at (since bears can be very ravenous). A Squatch on the other hand would just break the neck.. Does anyone know if large foot prints were found in the area?

It would sure be interesting to read the "real" police report should they ever release it.

No, but a bag of Jack Links beef jerky sticks was found at the scene.

That's very interesting. Recently, I've seen several TV documentaries verifying how trackers use Jack Links attempting to trick Sasquatch into performing for them. It usually ends poorly for the trackers, however. I just love wildlife documentaries!

Want to buy some magic beans marlen?

saxon, I agree with the first part of what you said -- but I think you are missing a major cause of Congress not attending to the very real needs of our servicemen and women.

Bernie Sanders said it well -- listen to his speech on the Saving American Democracy amendment. He observes that any Congressman or woman who speaks against the corporate indecencies that are being foisted on our nation risks having the considerable resources of those corporations aimed at unseating him or her for daring to speak up. It is more than photo ops and vacations.

If you want to know more about those "corporate indecencies," get hold of the book, The Shock Doctrine by Naomi Klein. The chapter I'm reading right now brings to greater light the extent of the damage done to our country by Rumsfeld, Cheney and Bush. And I have the feeling it is only the tip of the iceberg.

Women... do NOT have relations with guys who are

suicidal and "gets easily irritated, angry, depressed and frustrated."

Just... stay away from these sort of people. And quit making excuses for your having made children with these loose screws. Just get away from them.

For those of you wondering how Mr. Barnes died, it was by drowning with hypothermia in a river just below Paradise. Washington State has may 20 wild bears left in which are all hybernating at this moment in the year. My friends and I who all worked with and know the park ranger Margaret Anderson argee to the fact that he got what came to him due to the fact that he might of had PTSD does not give him a right to shoot 4 people outside of seattle and the run like a coward to the middle of the wilderness to hide from what he did.

@dancingspiderman it was probable before he deployed that she met him and before he was

suicidal and "gets easily irritated, angry, depressed and frustrated."

and after he came back, truthfully would you break up with someone as mentally unstable as him?

.anonymouse ,

Well then, perhaps you were meant to have a difficult life, by choosing to live with an unstable violent person. I present the above suggestion, because I notice that, some people cannot think for themselves during times of emotional stress. Oftentimes, someone from outside themselves must hint them to a solution; a solution devoid of reflected drama. A concise practical solution.

The time: before, during, after... the time of first meeting does not matter.

But, you may stay with the unstable violent person , for whatever reason you justify, and you may choose to continue to suffer whatever comes your way from the unstable person. It is a choice.

War is hell and some people who take part in death and destruction have a hard time coming back to civilian life. This is a guy who even looked the part and appears to be completely unstable, and the question begs to be answered, was he a bit unstable going into the military? I am sorry but killing the Park Ranger was wrong, and his death means no one else will have to die! He also shot four people, and my other question was how could no one in the military see the course this young man was on, and how unstable he was? We send our troops into hell, then when they complete their tours we fail to deprogram or see the signs of deterorating mental health! Possing in pictures with automatic weapons, loaded with tats, and looking like he wants to fight and kill, is a scary and frighting look into a troubled mind.

@.anonymous - This creep was completely screwed up long before he was allowed to enlist in the Army. There is a slight mention of the indicators of his instability in the article - "troubled and expelled student". More info on his background, please!! (And not just from his family.)

The real story that should be reported is "Why is the Army's screening process so woefully inadequate?" They need to be much better at recognizing the red flags that are waving over the heads of some of these nut jobs. Did he have those crazy tattoos before joining? The military experience can aggravate the condition of a person who is already unstable - it is important to exclude them from service. Normal people with a solid moral base and a sense of human society can be disturbed and depressed by combat experience, but it does not turn them into murdering psychopaths.

Sasquatch...really? I'd pay real money to see that.

Why can't the army find sane people willing to fight a war?

I would think that bears would be in hibernation this time of year. I don't really know, but that's just my thought.

SpryLynn, thank you for your son and husbands service to our country. My own son just came back from his 4th tour in Iraq. I am hoping this will be his last deployment. My husband is active service Marine currently in Afghanistan. He tells me that there is a difference between a Soldier and a "Professional" Soldier. The Professionals can separate themselves from what they do in war, and who they are as a person. That's a tough lesson to learn, but one he had to learn to survive. Many young soldiers, just enlisted, or just in for a few years to get an education never learn it. While I have no concrete evidence, it would seem that they are the ones who would be more susceptible to PTSD.

For those of you ridiculing the military, SHAME ON YOU.

That you can read, thank a Teacher. That you can read IN ENGLISH, thank a Soldier.

It's hard for the Army to find sane people to fill their ranks because the private sector pays more. Also, since Women don't pick 'husband' material and usually pick losers that won't stick around - which creates a broken home for their kids, thus creating the atmosphere for a troubled adult later in life.

Really?

Ask the (unknown) wise man where he was born, and he will tell you the same thing.

WELL SAID!!!!

There is a place for patriotism in America. I consider myself an American Patriot - I love this country and I deeply care about it. It is the parasites in Washington that have ruined America, because they sold out to special interests, among which the industrial military complex is very prominent. And we let them...

Vote Ron Paul - the only honest man in the race. I may not always agree with him, but I always respect him as above all this corruption racket that runs Washington.

It is not about flag waiving... it is about caring for the land and it's People.

Excellent post. Couldn't agree more. Kinda like when you ask someone how they became a republican or democrat and they say 'cuz my parents are'.

@Mr Lloyd Braun

What a bunch of bull. You don't have to be a warmonger to be a patriot. I consider Ron Paul to be one of the most patriotic politicans in DC and he is very anti-war.

Mike, you have to care for the people you live with, and for the place where you live. This is your tribe and your hunting grounds. Your survival depends on these things. You think that a surrender to multinational corporations and international capital is a better option for you? These are the folks who screwed up our country and made you compete with the Chinese for the same sack of overpriced rice. Wake up America...

Anti-war is a fruitless cause.

Reason being, you may be the only one who holds those values.

The best you can do is to be prepared.

Don't let the Republicans read that..... Not with their obsession with American Exceptionalism and all. We can do no wrong and should offer no apologies for taking what we wanted, from where we wanted, when we wanted, without regard for consequence to those whom we took it from. We are, after all, Amuricans and are entitled to whatever we want. <snark>

Hah, as if Obama hasn't been a warmonger himself increasing the war in Afghanistan, droping bombs in Libya, and ramping up threats and sanctions against Iran. Quit being such a hypocrite.

You have to understand.

Wars are not really dictated by presidents.

A president is merely a figurehead.

All objectives for any country are done collectively by the men in power long before he or she got there.

And, this is how it will always work.

Presidents are just media fodder for the people.

At last, an enlightened perspective. Thank you for your insight, Lloyd. Most Americans probably don't want to hear (or believe) it, but this American thinks you've hit the nail dead on!

Ron Paul honest? As your post started out good; you seemed to veer off the intelligent path at the end. Ron Paul is not honest man; he is not what America needs. He has bed fellows that are active members of the KKK; associates with Religious leaders that want to murder those who are a part of the lgbt community and this is just for starters. If you think that any individual who is running for office right now is honest; well i have some ocean front property I will sell you for a good price in Kansas.

PTSD is a real disorder. The military from the beginning of our first formed military chooses to deny the fact that war messes with the minds of those who are enlisted. When an individual is having a flashback moment; which is common for this disorder; they don't realize what it is they are doing. Often, they do become violent when in the midst of an attack. Who is to blame for this incident; yes the individual himself; but also the Military, and Government for not providing the basic care these men and women need upon returning home. However, that will probably never happen; as many like yourself believe in Capitalism. All about keeping the rich, rich and the poor are expendable. it wont be till every single American decides we are no longer going to be used for others gain. Unless you have millions within your checking account you are expendable.

Patriotism is not about "my country right or wrong." Patriotism is about defending what is right and fixing what is wrong. The 99%ers know that. We have had enough of the Tea Party crap about patriotisam and the Bush era version of imperialistic patriotism. I think the real patriots have had it up to their lower lip of the flag waving, mindless drivel and want to see some real change in America. We have allowed our civil liberties and freedom to be abridged and destroyed in the name of patriotism and righteousness. Let's fix it now. Get the rest of the right wing warmongers and their cronies out of office. No more Tea Partiers in congress. Dump Boehner and his band of minions and destroyers of democracy. Get McConnell and his corporate banker buddies out of the Senate. Restore civil liberties and freedom. Oh! a special note to Rick the Dick Perry. If you want to get rid of an agency, get rid of the TSA>

Ron Paul is a fruitcake.

Where "fruitcake" means "suggests solutions that were not implanted by media or the central server as per SOP for the standard drones on the line".

Nice rant, NAVY PILOT. You forgot to mention the other half of the game , da DEMOs; Who happen to be bankruptin America at a pace Bush II could only dream off. It's ALL a game of good cop/bad cop. Different Puppets, same puppetmaster. Enjoy the New World Order where Americans will be equal to ALL other people on the planet, except the ELITES though. Got to love dem Trans National BANKSTERS. LOL!

PS: President Obama has made the Bush Patriot Act look like child's play. LOL!

Mac -- Bush started the ball rolling at this outrageous pace. I'm still assuming President Obama wants no part of the corporatist takeover. He has the unsavory job of trying to get things done with them obstructing at every turn.

Max -- you said, "You think that a surrender to multinational corporations and international capital is a better option for you?"

You are right on track -- under Bush 2, especially, much of our government operation was outsourced to those multinational corporations. It is downright scary. And Ron Paul, with his libertarian views, would create a scenario where they could pretty much completely move in and take over. 'Libertarian' means even more limited government than we already have. Guess who will move into the vacuum?

I care about America and the American people. I care about the world and the world's people. They are not mutually exclusive. And it is major multinational corporations that are enriching themselves at great cost to planet Earth and the people who live here.

Morrigan, Bush I, II, CLinton, and President Obama play for the same team, dance to the same puppet master. How many BANKSTERS did President Obama put in Jail? How many millions has he raised from them. LOL!

President Obama has taken crony corporate fascism to new heights, or should I say lows. Either the Red Team or tda Blue team, you'll still be part of the New World Order, that is if you are deemed worthy to create CO2. LOL!

Tea party brownie points, really.

And that 21st century contract on America, the Grover Norquist pledge. Our veterans won't be able to find jobs any more than other unemployed or underemployed Americans...

It is the corporatists (by and large, members of the 1% and the wannabes) -- maximizing their profits at the cost of everyone else. They offer low wages -- of course, no unions... if the people really want to work they'll settle for what they're offered. At least they have a job. Benefits? Forget it.

This election time, WE need to make sure that we do not put people in office who will sell out even further. We must look for lawmakers who will stand up for us, for the returning veterans, and take our country back from the corporations.

I agree. Perhaps what they are dealing with is that is wasn't just a movie or a video game. When my brother-in-law went on his first tour he left with the whole attitude of "we are going to kill them, and this is how we do it." He came back very different after he had to kill a man and got to know the people in the village he was stationed in. It was harder after his second tour. It can be hard on these kids to have to do real combat where you cannot just hit a do over button or reset the game.

As far as this guy, he has a history of trouble and when the mother of his child noted in an official document she feared for her child and his life with his behaviors, that should have sent authorities a message to watch this guy.

I feel for your son, but this has been going on since the dawn of man.

I am a veteran myself.

This is the price we have to pay.

There are wars, and will always be wars.

Mankind is too stupid for peace.

@Viewer,

Mankind is too stupid for peace.

Sad.....but true.

I would say that "mankind" wants peace. "Mankind" isn't stupid. The majority of people in any country don't start or want wars. Look at yourself and the people you know. Do you or they want war? It's the tiny minority at the top who start (and profit) from war.

On a side-note, I know Persians who went through the Iran/Iraq war who were terrified every time they heard explosions and rockets roaring overhead. The U.S., Middle East, Asia, Africa... people are the same everywhere. They just want to live in peace and try and make a good life for their families. No one wants the horror of war. (Except that minority I mentioned, above...)

Unfortunately, the minority are in power.

This is the reverse of the 99%/1% bull crap going on in wall street.

And they always will be in power, because we, the others, put them there.

The only exception is dictators who rule by power and death.

These are the percent that America is trying to put down.

Cat: First of all this person was troubled from the get-go and you are so right about everyone wanting to live in peace. I know because of relatives who experienced WWII. But today we're dealing with a group in the Middle East who induce their children to worship death; they're raising a huge army of children to become suicide bombers and indoctrinate them with hatred reciting God is Great which really means their god is greater that the God of the Christians and Jewish peoples. Poverty among these people has alot to do with all this also.

Really, is this why we raise our children? To be killed? If not their bodies but their souls also? This is all so disturbing and my heart goes out to all our veterans and their families.

Crow girl

these poor kids are coming back to us with ghosts haunting them and nobody hears their silent screaming

How very melodramatic.

So in hindsight, do you think that as his mother you should have had the wisdom to discourage him from invading another country and murdering its citizens?

Just wondering.

WHO SAID, I think that comment was uncalled for. I'm pretty sure her Son did not start the Iraq war.

Sure its a volunteer Army now. But who are the volunteers? MOSTLY 2 kinds of People. The ones who bought in entirely to the propaganda that America is always right and virtuous and wont send you to war without great reasons.

The Others come from areas where Job opportunities give then little choice.

Crow girl, your thoughts and prayers only mentioned being with the murderer and his family, my sympathies are for the murdered park ranger and her family.

William, the point of this discussion is that they are all victims, in one way or another, of the crime against humanity called war.

And whosaid, I think Crow girl's words are poignant and true. There are many mothers who do discourage their children from "invading other countries and murdering its citizens." There are also many mothers who respect their children's wishes to serve their country. (Sometimes the same mothers.)

I came of age with the saying, "Join the Army. Go to exotic places, meet new people, and kill them." I would not encourage a child of mine to join the military. But kids have friends -- and if their friends are joining, they're likely to consider it, too. They make a point of being independent, of making their own choices.

And sometimes the choices they make have terrible consequences. For themselves, and sometimes for others as well.

The answer is simple ......$ This young man as many others are not getting the help they need to transition back to a normal way of life. It cost money. They tell them at the VA ....here take these and you'll feel better .....and send them on their way. I agree.... it is a damn shame.

You have been seeing the wrong men dear.

Spoken like a 325 pound woman,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

lol...

I am a disabled United States Marine Corps veteran, and a woman. I see PTSD patients at the clinic constantly and am personal friends with some. My "Gunny" (Gunnery Sergeant) in the Corps had 3 purple hearts from Vietnam and wouldn't talk about it unless he needed to. I am proud to have served my country and would do it again in a heartbeat... and guess what? .... no penis!

Doctress Julia wrote:

Most men truly hate women.

Lorena Bobbitt seemed to hate men when you look at what she did to her husband. But I wouldn't say "most women truly hate men" because of one person's extreme actions. The same could be applied here in regard to this man.

Doctress wrote ALL perps men. Perhaps she should read the entire article:

SPC Ivette Gonzales Davila, not a man.

Now you can retort with " Well, that is just one woman" if you please, but you stated ALL perps were men.

Just saying.

Doctress wrote ALL perps men. Perhaps she should read the entire article:

SPC Ivette Gonzales Davila, not a man.

Now you can retort with " Well, that is just one woman" if you please, but you stated ALL perps were men.

Just saying.

The only women I hate are women like you. That holier than tho attitiude. Natural maternal instinct? lol The same one that lets you dump a baby in the trash or kill your child?

Your type points the fingers way to much and has an excuse for every slip up your gender makes. The way I see it, since your gender has enjoyed more freedom, they have shown they are just as abusive and perverse.....as that man you hate so much.

She has no clue what it is like to serve in the Armed Forces of America!!!! Screw her and her stupid trailer trash attitude. Like i said before.... "Proud to have Served" still stands! I salute any and all Americans that swear "to give their live in defense of their country" while fat-asses like her condone everything she thinks is related entirely to men.... it's never been just men that have given all they have to protect the soil on which you stand! (you stupid fat-ass b****!)

I've been around a few more years than anyone would believe. These problems arise from a multitude of factors. Some are listed below:

1. Screwed up Rules of Engagement, we lose many soldiers due to the fact they are not allowed to return fire or get air support. The greatest Generation just killed everyone when they took fire and even eliminated entire cities of the enemy. This creates stress.

2. Multiple deployments, each one returnin mius some buds.

3. Stupid war, not very many soldiers believe in the sanity of our Iraq and especially Afghan policy. Let's hear from Afghan Veterans on this site that believe in our "Nation Buldin"

4. A lack of G-d in our society

5. Many Males and Females are no longer men and women. How many men totally abandon their children, and how many women put themselves before their children. Whether you women like it or not this is an escalating problem and many women use their children as weapons against their ole man, or should I say the baby's daddy.

6. The realistic vedio games condition people to more easily kill without thought.

7. Lastly, what is the % of young men who kill in comparison to army combat veterans who kill? I'd be willin to bet they are close.

paidmyfee - she's not a pound over 299!

Hey Julia, I am a man, and truly do support your view. Inside of me is rage towards women, and if it weren't for the law, I would do unspeakable things. On the other hand, I do hope you realize, I am trying to overcome and get help, as are my brothers. As it so happens, we are sponsoring a ladies night at our Penis and Death Worship House on Tues., hope you can come.

Doctress Julia, would you do us a favor, lay down on your back, throw up, then chock on it please?

Mac - 101 - I agree with your number 1. a Thousand Percent. Hell the VC and NVA would build base camps in the No-fire Zones and live comfortably, only leaving for hit and run missions and then retire back to the Free Zone. Frustrating indeed.

@RowdyRenee,

Thank you for your service AND your outspoken point of view!

I salute you and ALL other vets.

And little to zero help in coping with the rigors and trauma of those deployments. Shameful.

Wow, if that information is true it really explains a lot.

That's BS, my grandfather spent 2 years in North africa during WW2,

Some people believe that if you can't find a fact you can just make one up.

The army sends its troops on 1yr deployments while the other branches only do 6mo. deployments. I think it would help if they all only did 6mo. stints. My daughter went to Iraq, she just got out of the army she is stressed and has anxiety disorder. Thankfully she is getting help.

Her husband is also serving our country and has spent most of their marriage either deployed or stationed in another country. He also has anxiety disorder and anger issues. He is scheduled to deploy to Afghanistan in the spring, this will make it his second deployment. He just got home from Iraq last spring and was sent to Europ in the fall.

I believe these young soldiers are being asked to give to much and we will all feel the fallout of PTSD. as long as the military is allowed to keep up this retarded pace.

The Omni one is correct. In the present conflicts, door kickers are basically kickin in doors, drivin convoys what have you almost their entire year bein deployed, add to that bein mortored and rocketed.

While in WWII, Combat Infantrymen were rotated off the front lines on a regular basis and held in reserve. However, those WWII units experienced a much higher stress level for a shorter duration. So ya can't compare apples and oranges.

What did Iraq have to do with 9/11?

Yeah, what does 9/11 have to do with it?

Lee:

If you mean 11 Sept 2001 -- huh?

If you mean 11 Sept 2011 -- huh?

Uhh...you mean 2001?

A typical response to someone who was brainwashed by Cheney and his sidekick Bush. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. The leaders at the time used the fear of the people to support what they were doing. And to make sure that we had their backs, they pulled the WMD card out. And even when there was absolutely no proof that Saddam had WMD's, it didn't matter! The gov't got everybody all worked up to kick some ass regardless if they had anything to do with 9/11 or not. Now we are in such a hole with our budget because of the cost of the war that it's going to take years if not decades to get our head above water. There was nothing good about that war and now we're starting to feel the repercussions.

If you believe that Iraq had anything to do with the attacks on the World Trade Center you need to ocassionally listen to something other than FOX news and maybe get out of the house occasionally. The Dick and the Bushy would love to have you believe that. It just isn't the truth. You see that nasty ol' truth will bite you in the A$$ every time.

Occupied and Navy Patriot: well put. Nice to see some intelligence on here at times.

Nicky- The standards have been raised... Obviously you don't know flip! While the war may be riduculous in your eyes, what were we supposed to do? Let the Talliban kill us off, without any kind of show of force? We all dread war and long for peace, but the best way to accomplish peace is through the establishment of a standing arm that ensures our protection and then stricks back when things like 9/11 happen. I say a few well-placed nukes in Afghanistan will stop this war! Look what happened to Japan! Good move Harry Truman - decisive and brave action ended the Pacific front war in WWII and brought our men home! All this administration and other previous ones want is for the world to Love us! Bull crap! They hate us. They want our money! So why not rid the world of the trash? A day of reconing needs to come!

Great post trainee. from 69-72 mike. To many people think you just grit your teeth and get over it including a percentage of therapists at the V.A.

the soldiers are fighting for oil. nothing more. oh they don't get to keep any of it either btw.

Very well put! During my time in, my job would have been to launch missiles armed with nuclear warheads that would have effectively ended WWIII...and possibly civilization as well. There were times when that horror had its effect on me, but I was able to rationalize it with the "knowledge" that we would only launch in retaliation for a Soviet launch. Fortunately, it never came to that...but it scares me to view the US more and more as the aggressor in recent years, spreading our young men thin on too many fronts, demanding way too much combat duty from them.

Sadly, if we can't get the returning GIs employed when they get home, this will get much worse as we withdraw from Afghanistan and Iraq.

Trainee, Great Post. But I disagree with you on the draft. That would only force more people into wars they do not believe in.

I understand all the arguments for the draft, but disagree with most. No, The rich kids will still not serve. They will get differments because they are busy getting ready to get even richer.

You were in Nam. You saw the Drafted era. Lots of poor kids of all colors. 9 weeks of training and welcome to the war.

Other than that I agree with you 100%

Amen brother: most of this people who talk trash about the military have not serve and will never serve their country, they just sit in front of their computer and make judgements about something that they will never feel, real patriotism (the wiliness to lay down your life for your country)

trainee - Thank You for your Service and Welcome Home. Please read www.riflewarrior.com/vietnam.html Your commentary was so accurate that it gave me goosebumps. Peace.

SFC so according to you unless you have been in the military you can't have "real patriotism" really you need to get over yourself, there are firefighters, police and law enforcement who are willing to lay down their lives every day for 25 to 30 years in this country that are real patriots too. You don't have the right to tell anyone how they may or may not feel about our country, perhaps you should take advantage of some mental health from your local VA you sound a bit angry.

Trainee, finally someone that can make an intelligent comment. Thank you. I believe you are absolutely right about the draft. For all you warmongering fools that supported the The Cheney, Rummy and Bushy Boy ideology I think you would have been a lot more skeptical of the imaginary spectre of WMD's had YOUR child's life been directly on the line. As for Bin Laden? The intelligence community and special ops folks took him out anyway. Both of these wars were ridiculous and have brought our country to the brink of economic ruin that may stagnate our economy for the rest of my life. Wars don't do anything but break people and stuff and uselessly kill. As for the poor park ranger and all the families that are hurt by soldiers with PTSD, I guess the people way up there pulling the strings would just call it acceptable, collateral damage. Kind of the cost of doing business and getting rich.

So is fathering out of wedlock children -- Rev. Jesse Jackson a pillar of society.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=122032&page=1

lmao! luv it. Someone quoting the ultimate hypocrite.

So, what is your point? That war is civilized? Im no fan of the jesse jackson, or any of the other 5 jacksons, but hypocrisy is a very human condition we are all guilty of. I'm not sure why you need to assassinate this man's character for no apparent reason.

And clearly, the ultimate hypocrite was Hippocrates. They even named hypocrisy after him. Oh, sure, he was a good physician. But he always threw a fit when people didn't put the leeches away, and then sure enough, he would leave out his leeches right after!

You understand that "allowing guns in national parks" had nothing to do with this, but then you hypothesize that he had marijuana smoking parents, drunk grandparents, and a crummy school and that these "facts" were part of the cause. Quite a stretch.

I saw a photo of the killer on TV. On his neck, among other tattoos were four deadly sins, spelled out in bold letters: Pride, Lust, Greed, Gluttony?

He was then obviously a 1%er. (pride, lust, greed, gluttony)

Please take the GUN B*LL SH!T and go home.

I'm a gunsmith and a life long shooter but this has been a particularly bad week for that rhetoric.

There's been the Washington shooting and 5 here in NC including a 14 year old who shot an intruder like it was nothing. The locals are going on with the "You go boy".. The trouble is the kid is coming off like it was a video game.

I spent my life send guns with hunters to Alaska, Canada, Europe but it just seems a bad idea to have guns in national parks, restaurants, bars, night clubs. All places where guns don't belong IMO...

"I'm a gunsmith and a life long shooter but this has been a particularly bad week for that rhetoric."

Spare me that garbage, plenty of Jews worked for the NAZIs as well. Selling me and my rights down the toilet because you blame the tool for the crime, really?

Chainsaws do not cause logging. Cars do not cause drunk driving. Guns do not cause crime.

Denali National Park covers SIX MILLION, SEVENTY FIVE THOUSAND ACRES. That is TEN times the size of Rhode Island. If there was a place that required a gun, this would be it.

Gilley's, the biggest bar in the world, covered 91,000 SQUARE FEET. Just over two acres.

National Parks,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,bars,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,two different things.

When only 25% of 18-24 year olds will meet the cut because of height/weight, education, physical and law requirements. I would say we are being very picky and some would say you have to aspire to be in the Military now. Warm bodies need not apply.

ole dad had it bad...rip...

I guess we ought to make drinking and driving legal If your argument makes sense. I drove drunk 3 to 5 days a week for 20 years, never was charged or killed anyone. By the Grace of God.

This issue is not the fault of Joint Base Lewis McChord (JBLM), the former Fort Lewis and McChord Air Force Base.

Socially and mentally, this guy was a loser, evidenced by charges of domestic violence. More likely than not, he did have Post Traumatic Stress issues. However, most people who have PTSD, are in denial. They think that denial is a river in Egypt. They believe they can handle it on their own. Some are successful at that, but many others are not.

Also, no one can drag you off for treatment. It’s not as if the VA has a “dart and net” program. A veteran must ask for help or treatment. If the veteran is not willing to admit that his/her life is becoming a train wreck, there is nothing anyone can do.

It is highly improbable that anyone can fully recover from PTSD using their own willpower. It requires professional counseling or psychotherapy, and in many cases, medications to go with the counseling or therapy.

If there is a finger to point, it should go toward the State of Washington Legislature, for not passing tough laws and punishment for domestic violence crimes. Once the legal system realizes there is a veteran involved with domestic violence or assault charges, it should set of alarms.

In nearly all DV cases, there is plea-bargaining. That should not be permitted. The judge has the ability to craft a sentence that would require completion of a treatment program. Failure to comply with that would mean a new charge and a much harsher sentence for the convicted miscreant.

Had Benjamin Colton Barnes received a proper sentence for his domestic violence conviction, he would have still been in prison. This is an example of why there should be a “Veteran’s Court.” That would mean a no nonsense approach to crime and punishment. (“If you do this, here’s what’s going to happen to you,” can be a very effective and strong deterrent.)

This whole thing is sad on so many levels. However, it IS the fault of the miscreant and not the system.

Please you are showing your ignorance about PTSD. In denial of what--explain.. Depression, panic attacks, nightmares, anger, uncontrolable out bursts to mention a few isues. Ya, fool we are all in denial. STFU.

This is why me must elect Ron Paul. Its time to stop the illegal wars and bring these guys home before they all go nuts. Its time to stopthe madness of the banksters that want their global empire. RP is getting more $$$ from active military than any other candidate --go figure

I have no idea why Big D thinks that Ron Paul can solve PTSD. Maybe he thinks that the military can wave a magic wand at the problem and make it go away. Doesn't work that way in Real Life...