So what if they were tortured. They maimed and killed people. As the old saying goes. "An eye for and eye and tooth for the tooth. President Bush did the right thing. People seem to forget 911. President Bush did the greatest thing of any President. Stopped the "Holy War" from coming into America.

Yep, that's what this country was founded on.. Guilty until proven innocent.

Why no further explantion of what you're thanking Bush for ? Are you thanking him also for the thousands of Americans killed and wounded because he started a War that should never have been ? I don't understand the logic you're thank you.

Bush didn't do Sh!t to Stop anything. The Bush family has been in bed with the Royal Saudi family and the Bin-Laden family since the early to mid 1970's. Seriously, who the hell do you think built Houston? Pappa George had the Royals over for Christmas in Texas, well before he became President. Fact: The first attacks on the WTC happened under George 41's watch. Fact: The extremely successful, yet very fatal attacks on the WTC happened under sonny boy George 43's watch. Coincidence? Not even remotely likely. But that is what happens when Big Oil runs the White House/America, the World, essentially since 1980(think earlier, say the mid 70's). Reagan may have been the Pres, but Bush was in control. He was there as the head of the CIA in the early 1970's, then in the White House from 1980 until 1992, then, his worthless turd of a son, was in the White House from 2000, until 2008, and guess who his VP was? Yeah, you guessed it, Dick (head) Cheney. Connect the dots, and stop blaming Obama for the sh!t bag mess that America is in. Obama may not be the best Pres. ever, but he is not the worst either, that goes to Bush 43 and that most corrupt bunch of douche wads. Obama hasn't accomplished much, because he has been fought, tooth and nail every step of the way. It is not even a secret, that every top republican in this country wants to make sure he fails, irregardless of the damage it does to America, or Americans, and they wont even deny it. Wake Up People, Romney has ZERO CHANCE of winning the Presidency. It's either Ron Paul, or it's going to be Obama, and that is going to be the case for most Americans who vote, just My 2cents worth.

That place is still open? Well it's a good idea for O'Bagger to run against Congress instead of what he's not done. Time to elect a president instead of a ......I don't know has he ever had a job?

"I think people have become desensitized to the plight of the men that came to Guantanamo. They don't see them as human anymore. It's easy to distance yourself to what happened."

It's not so easy to distance ourselves from 9-11 and the horrible atrocities perpetrated by those at Quantanimo. How can we see them as humans when they don't behave as humans? I will never become desensitized to the plight of those who have suffered and died at their hands.

odin...I will join you in a vote for Ron Paul. I admit he has a few nutty ideas but he is honest and that is more than I can say for any of the rest of them, including Obama who is a Wall Street servant/

Morality aside, does it really cost $850,000.00 per prisoner per year to run Guantanamo?...Seems the retribution is on us also.

These criminals are the ones Obama will release before he leaves office. These a-holes are a threat to our country and should have already been tried in a military court, not a civilian court as Obama wants to do. He doesn't want to see his Muslim brothers punished.

President Bush did the right thing, in fact he should have tortured them more if for no other reason than to show the terrorist that we will not tolerate people that harm our country. What about the things they have done to our people and have televised ? I guess cutting their heads off is considered less punishment than water boarding. Give them all a quick military trial then line them up and kill the whole bunch and be done with it. In the mean time, feed them nothing but rotten pork and water.

JK...I think not. if you believe in what this country is SUPPOSED to be. Ask the family's of those who he murdered , if you think I am wrong. It is hard for me to beileve, you really think this way after what this trained killer did.

Hipocresy all over. You apploud the killing of Osama by Obama but complain about how this terrorist Mohammad Al Qatani who was part of the 9/11 terror attack , by the way he was treated , just because was under Bush this tragedy happend. There is bood of three thousand people in the hand of this terrorist and you condem Bush for his harsh interrogation techniques , CIA use to get information , sleep depravation , isolation even watherbording was necesary . You bunch of whinny sisis .

@skipster"So what if they were tortured. They maimed and killed people. As the old saying goes. "An eye for and eye and tooth for the tooth. President Bush did the right thing. People seem to forget 911. President Bush did the greatest thing of any President. Stopped the "Holy War" from coming into America."

Are you kidding?

"THEY"??? Who they? Every brown skinned person in the world? Every Muslim? Every non-American white anglo-saxon?

Forget 9/11? No one has forgotten 9/11... have you forgotten the Treaty of Paris? Have you forgotten the Treaty of Versailles? Have you forgotten the overthrow of the Shah and the sinking of the Liberty? The establishment of Israel in the middle of Arab lands? Have you forgotten the lesson of T. E. Lawrence?

I love the selective memory of conservatives...

skipster56

So what if they were tortured. They maimed and killed people. As the old saying goes. "An eye for and eye and tooth for the tooth. President Bush did the right thing. People seem to forget 911. President Bush did the greatest thing of any President. Stopped the "Holy War" from coming into America.

Well I know I won't forget 9/11/2001 during my lifetime since I was standing on 5th Ave staring in horror as the first tower was preparing to fall. That being said, not all of those prisoners whose torture you so casually dismiss were actually guilty of anything at all besides being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Remember, these people did not get a trial. They didn't even get a hearing. Some were and are dangerous and I don't object to keeping these people locked up. But I had been brought up to beleive that we as Americans were above torturing prisoners. That was a lie. America is not Above torturing prisoners even when they haven't been shown to have done anything worth holding them.

Now we have all this Lawyers who do not care about the consequences of releasing this video, in order to move their stupid ideology against harsh interrogation, ideology shared by Erick Holder and the lawyers that help terrorist in GITMO. Same lawyers that are pushing for civil trials for terrorist. Mohammad Al Qahtani do not deserve one minute of life , for the crimes he commit.

How can they be criminals? how can they be terrorists? How can they be anything if they are not given a fair trial and found to be guilty!

Our country was founded on these principles and we should show the world we live by them.

Let the haters hate but its only fair.

Releasing "disturbing"videos (if they exist) would serve no constructive purpose, but only inflame anti-American sentiments across the globe. Fighting terrorism is not like fighting a "traditional" enemy with same-colored uniforms, codes of conduct, prisoner treatment, etc. No, the fight on terrorism is a very unconventional fight where all the traditional rules of war do not apply. Our enemies see no difference between civilian and military targets, nor between civilian or military combatants. They do not hesitate to bring women and children into the fight, either theirs OR ours. They will employ any means, at any time, by any method to gain an upper hand. I have no problem with whatever techniques we use to keep these people from re-joining the fight or to get information from them to save American lives.

It's funny how they want to have a war in which they do whatever THEY want on their side, but expect to be able to use our own courts and legal system against us on the other.

Anybody who thinks this is NOT torture should be subject to these techniques for a week to see if they have a change of heart...

We worry about the terrorist and his rights. We worry about the illegal alien and his rights. We worry about the serial killer and his rights. These rights are of the people, by the people and for the people of he United States Of America. They are for the law abiding citizens. No one has the right to kill us, steal from us, or cross over our borders illegally, period! We as a nation, have got to do what ever is necessary to defend ourselves and our country or... down the road as we set somewhere in the darkness with no food, electricity, and no water and contemplate, how did we let this all happen? Who's to blame? Why didn't we do something, anything? But then...It wont make any difference because it will be too late.

cub

when you live in fear ..you lose your freedom!

I find it rather odd that Cub is mentioning serial killers, terrorists, and illegal immigrants in the same vein.

They really don't deserve to be classed together with murderers and psychopaths. A person's line of reasoning is highly suspect when they are essentially equating the grievances with illegal immigrants to the greivances with serial murderers.

This is a fair game and torture is part of it. Torture is not applied over delinquents , those individuals are not common delinquents or street murderers , you are mixing apple with oranges, this people are terrorist can you get it , religious fanatics , people that kill to get rewarded by their god. If you think that we need to be subject to torture to understand what it is, you are wrong even do , CIA agentsand special forces are trained to resist weatherboarding ,I know what is torture and they deserve it. Those terrorist perfectly know the consequences of their actions. What is wrong with Americans liberals are getting too soft.

Does anybody know what Qahtani was doing when captured?...he was heavily armed and was engaged in open combat with U.S. Marines in a fire fight where 2 Marines were killed. Screw this guy...

Isn't that just a crying shame. Roll em up in 100 feet of det cord.

Red, what's weatherboarding?

Also, is English not your first language?



he was heavily armed and was engaged in open combat with U.S. Marines in a fire fight where 2 Marines were killed.

You mean he was an enemy combatant in a war? That usually means they should be treated as a prisoner of war.

We're the United States. We are better than torture. Torture is for dictatorships, banana republics, and zealots. I find it funny that the same people who call the potus a dictator are those who support dictator-style actions like torture of prisoners.

I find it incomprehensible that a person can wave a flag but then actually advocate something as incredibly unAmerican as torture. Pigs.

The US constitution applies to citizens...legal citizens. Treason used to be punishable by death and they acted swiftly. If treason were still looked at with the same consequences maybe we wouldn't even be having this debate. The country was stronger back then, people knew not to mess with us and when they did it was severe and swift action. But now we've got this "everybody needs to be loved" attitude. Well you know what? Everybody doesn't need to be loved...some people are just evil. Unfortuneatly to weed out those people in today's environment we sometimes need to get a little. Sorry about that, well not really. You want protection? This is one of many ways that we receive it. Hey, you could always go to a much more humane region like Darfur if you're not happy with American protection measures.

@MAX, I'll take this treatment ANYDAY and twice on Sunday over what I previously mentioned...don't even think you can play that hand.

Get a little "dirty". (Typing too fast)

" the end justifies the means's Karl Marx.

once we condone what our moral fiber has outlawed, we lose our national soul.

have you seen what they do..I doubt it you just regurgitate what your told...torture is a term used by the left...It's interrogation and the guys who do it have go through it as training so wa wa wa

The US constitution applies to citizens...legal citizens. Treason used to be punishable by death and they acted swiftl

Treason also only applies to citizens.

...torture is a term used by the left...It's interrogation

Yeah, calling it something else makes it something else... valid argument /s/

the guys who do it have go through it as training so wa wa wa

And that makes it not torture? Please, explain further. This time try being coherent.



have you seen what they do

My good friend and coworker is former army intelligence, worked as an interrogator. He calls it torture.

People talking about the constitution and rights, but these apply to American citizens. Not to people who have sworn to kill Americans wherever and whenever. I also must applaud the person who pointed out the hypocrisy of cheering for Bin Ladens death and screaming bloody murder because this a hole was offended by his treatment.

Frankly I want them tortured every second of their pathetic lives. I want them to live in agonizing pain until their frail bodies finally give out and then I want their bodies fed to wild boars in front of the other terrorists who think they can do these things to us and get away with it. I want the United States to be more cruel, more crazy than the other guys. I want them to fear us the way we all fear them.

Cub T said:

We worry about the terrorist and his rights. We worry about the illegal alien and his rights. We worry about the serial killer and his rights. These rights are of the people, by the people and for the people of he United States Of America. They are for the law abiding citizens. No one has the right to kill us, steal from us, or cross over our borders illegally, period!

Rightwingwac said:

The US constitution applies to citizens...legal citizens.

The Constitution of the US has Amendments, the first ten of which are called the 'Bill of Rights' Here's two of them:

Amendment 5: No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

The operative term here is 'no person'. The Constitution doesn't differentiate between US citizens, law-abiding US citizens, lawful permanent residents, illegal aliens, undocumented immigrants, or terrorists. It gives EVERY PERSON due process of law. Thes people have largely been placed in GITMO on suspicion of (but have never actully ben charged with) terrorism. Thy have not been allowed to prove their innocence or guilt in court of law and it is a violation of our Constitution.

How many people in the US do you think have never broken a law? Have you ever crossed a street not at the crosswalk? Crossed at a crosswalk even though the 'don't walk' was flashing because there were no cars on the road? Eaten food while riding a bus? Ridden a bike without a helmet? Done 60 down a dark road at night when you knew the speed limit is 55? Ran a red light? Did you know that sex with your wife in certain postitons is against the law in certain jurisdictions? There are hundreds of stupid rules still on the books everywhere that most people break bcause they don't even know about them.

By your reasoning then, the jaywalker doesn't have rights. The guy who got a parking ticket dosn't have rights. The guy who got a speeding ticket rushing to the hospital after hearing his wife was in a car accident doesn't have rights. The child who killed his dad because his dad was beating up on his mother has no rights. Where I live, there's a rule on the city lawbooks that says you cannot curse within city limits--that pretty much takes out the entire city population over the age of three!!!! So all those people who break this rule should not have rights?

Amendment 6: In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

Being charged with a crime by the American government is a serious thing, therefore the Bill of Rights was written with the idea that an average person should be able to defend himself against charges and implies that the government should have to prove their case. It's also better known as 'innocent until proven guilty', and it's the basis of our entire justice system. Being held indefinitely without being charged or wihout being tried--if they don't tell you what you're being detained for, how do you know what to defend yourself from? if you aren't given a chance at a trial, how do you prove you're innocent? And if they can hold you indefinitely, they can just wait until you're dead.

If the US has indisputable proof that these detainees ARE terrorists and have committed a terrorist action, why be afraid of allowing them a public, civilian trial? If what they were going to do/planning to do affects the US population, then let us judge them. Let us, the US, decide whether in our opinion these people are guilty of what our government accuses them of doing.

People talking about the constitution and rights, but these apply to American citizens. Not to people who have sworn to kill Americans wherever and whenever. I also must applaud the person who pointed out the hypocrisy of cheering for Bin Ladens death and screaming bloody murder because this a hole was offended by his treatment.

You're forgetting "HUMAN RIGHTS"

sheesh

- and as for some of the worst sickest zealot terrorists - hell yeah I'd want do the torture myself (in fantasy)... but in reality, no.... in reality there are morals that must be upheld for the good of the country as a whole.

NOT TORTURING PEOPLE regardless of their 'citizenship status' is a pretty important step toward being a CIVILIZED COUNTRY.

Why is it acceptable to "murder" suspected terrorists (and maybe innocent people, too, who happen to be in the vicinity) via drones, but it's not acceptable to torture suspected terrorists at Gitmo?

First off, the Bill of Rights and Constitution guarantee the rights of ALL people being tried by authorities of the US.

There is no picking and choosing who YOU think should have a fair trial or not. There are some pieces of sh*t murderers that were born in the US and are citizens, that I'd execute myself if I had the chance.

Being born in the USA doesn't give you(me), any special privileges or considerations in court, over someone NOT a born or naturalized citizen of the USA.

I(you) don't get to play judge/jury/executioner. If the evidence is strong enough, bring it into some type of court that respects the possibility that the accused might be either guilty or innocent of the charges against them.

Second, most of those captured, interrogated/tortured and imprisoned at Guantanamo, have been released because of not enough evidence to support a prosecution.

If we could prove a detainee(or this guy) was actually guilty of aiding the 9/11 attackers or other terrorist acts against civilian Americans, he'd have gone to trial by now(civilian court or military tribunal).

Some of you try to justify what's been done to detainees, by telling yourselves they must have been involved with helping the 9/11 attacks.

That's ignorant and indicative of low level thinkers.

Shuklack, and what prisoner of war gets a Lawyer? You think Obama is so clean hello rendition is still going on. What do you think is happening during those hours of rendition. Where were all you people when Bush said there were going to be black ops and things you don't want to know So none of you people would do anything to save your child? Sorry but I'm not as righteous as you.

Xina:

that's the crux of your problem.

You FEAR "them", which makes you support negative actions.

There is more chance of you dying in a car accident, choking to death on food, or being struck by lightning.......than being killed in a terrorist attack on US soil.

Do you live with the fear of those possibilities as well?

WHen did Americans become so fearful? Why do so many let their fear dictate how they treat others? That just increases bigotry against those who are labeled as supposed "threats".

Rightwingwac

The US constitution applies to citizens...legal citizens.

I can on;y interpret this as you are saying that the people who were doing the alleged torture were not US citizens. If you are trying to say that people who are not US citizens do not have rights under the US constitution, you would be wrong. The constitution does have certain sections that specifically apply to citizens for example:

No Person shall be a Senator who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty Years, and been nine Years a Citizen of the United States...

But there are sections that apply to everyone with regard to the relationship to the US Government, for example:

Article [VIII]

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Part of the problem with this country these days is that people don't seem to understand (or care) how the constitution works. This Article VIII doesn't say, "unless it is a foreign combatant..." or "If it is an American citizen..." not is it implied. Please learn how the government is supposed to work.

Shuklack - I guess in your eyes planning and killing 1000's of innocent civilians including children is a slap on the wrist offense. Compared to want these people (I use that term loosely) are willing to do to US citizens and pretty much 99% of the worlds population that doesn't match their twisted little beliefs; this "torture" would be a welcome improvement. I'd gladly suffer though what happen to them, then take the chance of what they would do to me or my family if they had the option. So get your head out of the sand or where-ever else it might be shoved up, these are the scum of the earth and deserve no mercy as they would surely not show any. Yes, this is still being a better person then they are and in their case I can live with that.

So what if they were tortured. They maimed and killed people.

And for those that are innocent? Many have been released you know. What of those people. Was it OK to torture them. Maybe we should just make this the standard here. When you are arrested you can be tortured and made to confess and if you are innocent that's just tough luck. Even the Nazi war crimes perpetrators got trials.

American Lobo and Hal - The constitution and bill of rights are US documents which apply to US citizens, not world citizens if it did we could also say they are subject to are laws which unfortunately they are not.

Swan37, not all the prisoners were tortured. Only the top level Al Queda were tortured.

i am shocked that people are actually defending these people... did they not commit crimes that justify their punishment? would we just take them for no reason? NO, they need to be kept where they are until they are no longer a threat.

if we let them go and they kill a family member, then what? you are going to cry they got released

The constitution and bill of rights are US documents which apply to US citizens, not world citizens

No that would be the Geneva convention which in these cases we just ignore. In fact if you look at a guy like Jose Padilla an American citizen arrested on American soil we also ignore the constitution when it suits us. What exactly do we have left?

Swan37, not all the prisoners were tortured. Only the top level Al Queda were tortured.

Testimony from released prisoners says you are wrong. In any case how would you even know? Were you there? When we just decide to ignore the Geneva convention anything goes.

Stop accussing soo much and get to the bottom of things.

Why is this war going on any way?
What was the main cause???
If you cannot truthfully answer these questions then you aren't truthfully looking for a solution.

do on to others how you want done onto self.

America and terrorist have lowered the bar when it comes to dealing with people sainly.

I feel like if someone waants to kill me I will allow for them to in order for them to gain greater understanding.

But, like I said "You can not kill that which is eternal.

You will live more than one life!!!!
Contrary to all of your teachings and that life will never be the same.

What really bothers me and should bother you, is once you drive someone insane - even if they are cleared of the original charges, how do you release them, integrate them back into civil populations?

Granted, President Obama has not released these "victims" of enhanced, extended interrogation. However, he did attempt finding a place which would accept them. Their home countries did not want them back, nor would any of the usual neutral or safe haven countries seem willing to accept them. Congress has forbidden sending them to civilian penitentiaries. That leaves a choice of permanent incarceration at some special facility (Germany had a similar problem with a number Nazi convicted war criminals (7) deemed to dangerous, devisive to release - they emptied and reserved Spandau prison specifically to house them).

Unless something changes in psychiatry, to reverse sever brain trama) - they will likely die in Guantanamo bay of old age or misadventure.

The last inmate died, allowing the prison to be closed and finally demolished. Spandau Prison was a prison situated in the borough of Spandau in western Berlin, constructed in 1876 and demolished in 1987 after the death of its last prisoner. Some evil, once in motion is impossible to recover from.

Rudolf Hess was the only inmate in Spandau Prison. His only companion was the warden.

(Thanks Bush, Chaney, Ashcroft, Rumsfeld - we really need that)

Shuklack

I find it rather odd that Cub is mentioning serial killers, terrorists, and illegal immigrants in the same vein.

They really don't deserve to be classed together with murderers and psychopaths. A person's line of reasoning is highly suspect when they are essentially equating the grievances with illegal immigrants to the greivances with serial murderers.

I believe that Cub was stating the curious position we modern Americans find ourselves in, when the legal system is worried more about the "human rights" of illegal aliens than the right of American citizens NOT to be INVADED by foreign nationals. We worry more about the rights of terrorists than the rights of Americans NOT to be terrorized. It's insane, it's damaging, and it will be our undoing.

Shuklack is one of those foaming at the mouth leftists who worries more about "human rights" when it comes to a foreign terrorist than an American citizen or an unborn child.

Shuklack is one of those who bemoans racism in this country, while supporting institutionally racist policies like a "white" person being denied government loans, college entrance or a job because they are the wrong color.

Shuklack is one of those crazies who bemoans the influence of Christianity on Western society, but defends the rights of Muslims to build a victory mosque at ground zero, and these people absolutely plan to take over this country.

We can't afford any more of these malicious crazies. People like Shuklack have made me a secessionist for good reason.

Why is it acceptable to "murder" suspected terrorists (and maybe innocent people, too, who happen to be in the vicinity) via drones, but it's not acceptable to torture suspected terrorists at Gitmo?

Why is it OK to kill enemy combatants and not OK to torture POWs? Same answer. They are in our custody. As a civilized nation - we don't torture people in our custody.

I can't believe politcal discourse has gotten so partisan in this country that people have actually begun to argue FOR TORTURE. It's insane.

Shuklack - I guess in your eyes planning and killing 1000's of innocent civilians including children is a slap on the wrist offense.

What dank orifice did you pull that from? Where did I even insinuate such? Yes, they are bad bad people - that doesn't make it ok to torture them.

You start torturing, you lose moral high ground. You lose moral high ground and THE TERRORISTS WIN.



I believe that Cub was stating the curious position we modern Americans find ourselves in, when the legal system is worried more about the "human rights" of illegal aliens than the right of American citizens NOT to be INVADED by foreign nationals. We worry more about the rights of terrorists than the rights of Americans NOT to be terrorized. It's insane, it's damaging, and it will be our undoing.

That's a rather vacant argument, largely because the assertion that we worry about 'human rights' more than 'american rights' is false on its face because American rights contain human rights.

Upholding human rights for everyone by proxy serves to uphold the rights of the citizen.

Some EXTRA protections go to American citizens.

And as for the gov't worrying more about terrorist's rights - that's fking ridiculous... we went over and bombed the living piss out of them for the last decade.

Tell you what , All you bleeding heart idiots out there that think all terrorists are not that bad and think they should have "RIGHTS?" why dont you adopt one and have them move into your house? You would love to have one I'm sure. Just lock up your daughters and wifes room real well. Obvious reasons there.

And oh yea hide the knife unless you want to see how handy they are with them!

Idiot!! I really want to know what american out there has forgot about what happen 9/11? Do you think they are all boyscouts now? These guys are murderers that could care less about anyone! All they want is to be released so they can plan future attacks. They will not be happy till America is no longer.

And why do we care so much or waste any time about a hand full of criminals? Like I said if you love them so much have one move in with you! See how well that goes?

Amanda...You can quote the constitution, the billl of rights, even the bible all you want...We all live in a different world then the last generations. The rules of the game have to be changed. The terrorists could care less about rules. They want you dead. Can you not understand that? They could care less about you, your country or your God. It's sad but it's true and all your preaching about how civilized we should be and turn the other cheek will not work in the world we live in.

He is not a US citizen. He doesn't get constitutional rights.

American Lobo and Hal - The constitution and bill of rights are US documents

But it does apply to how American citizens interact with anyone else including foreign nationals. That is why if you are a Chinese citizen or a Mexican who is accused of committing a crime in the US you are entitled to a fair trial. If the constitution did not apply to them then they wouldn't get that fair trial.

the US constitution written nearly 300 yrs ago did not look at the possibility of enemy combatants of terroist nature. They did look at the possibility of this nation falling into the wrong type of government and presidents for years have been trying to be the "supreme ruler" of the US. There have also been a lot of promises broke in the past 3 yrs, meantime, wallstreet kicks back and laughs, he's got us all fooled, well most of us. Rid the Nation of Nobama the Clown and elect a real president for once.

Swan37, right back at you ,were you there. Geneva Convention does not apply to people out of uniform

timetraveler:

You obviously don't know squat about Shucklack, but you do love to ASSume things about people, don't you?

Most religions(Islamic/Judeo-Christian) have been used to tell others what is "right", and justify trying to convert those who are "wrong". They are ALL guilty of serving their leaders, over any type of "God".

"Shuklack is one of those crazies who bemoans the influence of Christianity on Western society, but defends the rights of Muslims to build a victory mosque at ground zero, and these people absolutely plan to take over this country."

McCarthy would be proud of you for writing bigoted fear monger pieces like that.

The mosque site wasn't "at ground zero", nor was it intended to represent "victory", by the majority of those who wanted it built. In the minds of bigots, anyone they don't agree with trying to live or build(share) the same country as themselves, is a "takeover".

Chicken little loves to claim the sky is falling.

Yes, there are terrorist groups that want to harm us(the US/Americans).

No, there aren't as many as you'd like to believe there are.

No, not everyone with a grudge against the US, has the means/access, that wil allow them to carry out any type of attack against us.

With over a billion Muslims on the planet, accusing them all of trying to "take over the world", just because the leader of a few small groups( a few thousand) engage in terrorism, is pretty weak.

Bush was the idiot that didn't think a presidential briefing titled "Alqueda deterrmined to strike in U.S." was important enough to read in Aug. before 9-11 so we got the idiot that was appointed by the supreme court as president. Last time those idiots should appoint anyone. The gang of 5 fascist appointees should be impeached so Obama can appoint 5 real Americans to the court!!!!

Tell you what , All you bleeding heart idiots out there that think all terrorists are not that bad and think they should have "RIGHTS?"

They are bad - they are despicable scum of the earth.

But they are also humans, and as humans they have certain rights. The right not to be tortured is of the most basic level.

These rights must be upheld, because as soon as we start making determinations of who can and can't be tortured - we have lost. We have lost to the terrorists and have lost as Americans. The moment we start segregating people into categories of who should be treated as a human and who shouldn't be - we have given the green-light for all past and future acts of terror and genocide, because "scum" is a subjective term.

We cannot hold a country to the expectation that they should treat our pow's humanely, if we do not do the same. We cannot properly justify taking action against another country for human rights abuses, if we abuse them ourselves.

As Americans, we should hold the high ground - not lower ourselves to the level of petty despots and terrorists.

We Americans like to think of ourselves as better than these dictatorships and oppressive regimes, as better than the Chinese... we bemoan their human rights abuses and unjustified imprisonments - yet here some of you are, advocating we do the very same thing.... advocating the necessity of lowering ourselves to that level as a nation. It's pathetic, and frightening.

Mossdog the only real presidential person on your side of the aisle is Huntsman the rest are right wing extremists like W. was. Obama's problem is he actually tries to work with the fascists in congress instead of working behind the scenes to elimnate the obstructionists by force if necessary. I don't see why he doesn't use the CIA to take out koch brothers, Limbaugh, Hannity, Boehner, Mitch Bitch Oconnel and save America from these unAmerican idiologs. You don't deal with terrorists, especially republican ones.

We puff ourselves up and pat ourselves on the back for having freedoms protected by our constitution and behind the curtain of denial lies our political prisoners. It is way beyond time to make it right. Maybe we will never charge the perpetrators with crimes against humanity but we need to either try these people or let them go.

the US constitution written nearly 300 yrs ago did not look at the possibility of enemy combatants of terroist nature. They did look at the possibility of this nation falling into the wrong type of government and presidents for years have been trying to be the "supreme ruler" of the US

Certain rights are considered timeless and universal.

I'd argue the right not to be tortured would fit within the timeless and universal category.

As for their extended imprisonment, they should be treated as POWs under the Geneva Convention when it comes to their lodging, food, etc. Because they are combatants of a terrorist organization, there does need to be some updating done with how to properly deal with them.

In the end, they need to be given a trial - and found guilty of terrorism or an applicable charge. They then need to be detained, executed, whatever if found guilty. Their crime MUST be stated and charged. We should not be holding anyone, foreign / domestic / pink extra-terrestrial, without due process.

Should terrorism be punishable by death? It's been a long time since we've convicted anyone of treason, do you still think we would punish that with death these days?

Amanda,

Overall a good post. Here is what I see the problem is with you way of thinking. If we allow these people to enter our country and kill at will knowing full well they can hide behind our laws, then very soon both this country and the very same laws the terrorists want to hide behind, will cease to exist.

"War is hell!" That was true when General Sherman said it and never more so true today. Today we face a threat that not only wants to invade our country, but wants to destroy the very fabric of America and the American people with it. They (the radical Islamics) don't like the fact that we have the freedoms we do. They don't want to make peace with us they only want to destroy us and our way of life.

Bottom line is this: We can allow the rules so to say to tie our hands and the terrorists who have no rules nor moral or ethical sense of value will win. We can sit back and watch as our country and way of life is destroyed or we can be proactive and do that which the enemy makes necessary to protect it. We can pretend that these known terrorists at GITMO have the same rights as any American citizen and treat the as such and sit back as many if not all are set free by laws only meant in spirit to protect U.S. citizens. Or we can play by their rules and have at least a chance of winning the war on terrorism. The choice will ultimately be made by American citizen's and those we elect to federal office. We can let the pacifists win and hand this country to the terrorists or we can let the war mongers win and go to far the other direction, or we can try to find politicians who can balance what is right with what is made necessary by the actions of the terrorists. Make no mistake about it; it is the terrorists who decide what action is necessary to deal with them. Much like the criminal decides the amount of force necessary a law enforcement officer must use to stop them from committing a crime. If you don't believe this is true try pointing a gun a a police office the next time you are stopped for a minor traffic offense and take note of how fast the officer goes from "license, registration and proof of insurance please" to you looking down the barrel of his gun and him saying drop the weapon or I will shoot, and you go from sitting comfortably in your car while you get either a warning or a citation to exiting your car laying face down on the pavement and having your hands cuffed behind your back, or worse yet to the local morgue because you refused to comply with the officer's lawful orders. Make no mistake about it these are all levels of force and it is your actions that decide which are used. If, hypothetically these terrorists simply gave the information that the interrogators know they have when asked, then harsher forms of interrogation would not be made necessary by the terrorists. Get the point?

shuklack...their not being tortured their being inetrogated...I guess you don't understand as plainly because you get to sit back here in a peace provided to you by our men and women in the military and spout off whatever your fed as fact. I think you'd feel differently if you had actually gone over there to see thing like:

-Taliban shooting a 5 year old boy in the head in a manner that kept him alive so the parents would request help so the taliban could draw in and shoot down a medical helicopter

- 10 TAliban coming into a village that had recieved medical aid from Marines. To teach the adults not to cooperate with the Marines the Taliban took the children out into the street and sawed there heads off using shoe laces.

- Two taliban raping a 5 and 3 year old girl and boy. The children put up such a fight the Taliban shot them in the heads so they could finish without a struggle.

Don't tell me pouring water on a piece of crap like this until he passes out/reviving him and repeating to get critical information is torture until you've witnessed the end results of the above mentioned. It's humane in comparison.

P.S> the little boy that got shot in the head survived if thats what you want to call it.

I guess torture and showtrials are only evil when [s]Communists[/s] Muslims do it.

My aunt worked at GTMO for several years as a Navy psychiatrist to the prisoners before getting out and starting her own practice. She doesn't deny they may have been tortured in the beginning years after 9/11 but in her 5 years there the worst torture they could complain to her about was when another inmate got a bigger cupcake than the other!

I guess you don't understand as plainly because you get to sit back here in a peace provided to you by our men and women in the military

Funny that, since you're talking to a vet of both Iraq and Afghanistan.

their not being tortured their being inetrogated...

Right, and the Inquisition didn't torture - they banished demons.



Don't tell me pouring water on a piece of crap like this until he passes out/reviving him and repeating to get critical information is torture until you've witnessed the end results of the above mentioned. It's humane in comparison.

So our torture isn't as bad as their torture so it's ok? Weak argument. It's like the pepper-spray is only food logic. You a fox news writer by chance?

Jaime:

Your aunt is only going by what the detainees told her. Was she at Gitmo from the beginning, or in the later years.

It seems like most Islamist men, would be too proud or embarassed, to tell a woman about any sexual degradation or abuse they received.

Maybe they thought they were being recorded, and didn't want to risk any reprisals by the guards.

Unless your aunt was present in the cells or interrogation areas(not just the area where she saw the detainees) 24/7, she wouldn't have much knowledge of what really went on.

Shuklack:

I think you are on point with most of what you've posted.

Keep it up. It's refreshing to read posts from those with logical and balanced/fair thinking.

It shows that there are still reasonable Americans that don't let their own bigoted views cloud their judgment/assessment of things.

Thanks Lobo -

It just completely confounds me that people are literally pro-torture. A couple decades ago it would be inconceivable that Americans would support something so deplorable and entirely counter to American values.

Even more ironic and downright scary is that most of these people on here who are pro-torture are also the same people who thump the Bible against abortion and gays and whatnot.

I fear there is a growing segment in the US that has went completely off the deep end.

All the torture apologists here need to study history and learn about how the British treated NAZI pows during WW2. They didn't have to torture their prisoners at all and they were able to extract all sorts of valuable intelligence.

"I fear there is a growing segment in the US that has went completely off the deep end."

That's not the only problem, Shuklack. They seem bent on forcing everyone els to follow them, or be subjected to negative treatment by them.

FR sent.

RightWingVac,

You're absolutely dead wrong. The Constitution applies to "persons". That's why people who are on vacation here and get into trouble still go on trial, with public defenders if necessary, and are afforded due process. Look at this...

No PERSON shall be held accountable...

The ACCUSED shall enjoy the right...

The right of the PEOPLE to be secure in their PERSONS...

See also, Plyler v Doe, Boumediene v Bush, and Fong Yue Ting v United States. Now can you please find me something in the Constitution that claims ONLY citizens are afforded rights? the 14th amendment created natural born citizens and made sure they were protected under our laws and held under our jurisdiction, however, nothing in the 14th amendment limits that jurisdiction/protection to ONLY citizens.

Everyone Else,

I'm assuming all of those making the claim that the Constitution is too outdated to handle enemy combatants, are also accepting of the fact that the 2nd amendment could also be interpreted as outdated, correct???

Also, no one here is advocating for the Taliban or any terrorist douchebags, be they foreign, domestic, Muslim, Christian, brown, white, or green. We're advocating for an end to the hypocrisy. If you think how this man was treated was okay, I'm assuming you also believe that it would be okay for them to torture OUR soldiers when they're caught? Afterall, some of these people are guilty of no more than fighting off an army that's come onto their land, and killed their people.

You don't get to have it both ways. Either you can wave your flags, wear your tricorn hats, quote your Constitution, and love America, or you can accept torture.

"Those who give up essential liberty for temporary security deserve neither." - Ben Franklin

Well said Sarah.

That quote from Ben, is one of my favorites.

i am shocked that people are actually defending these people... did they not commit crimes that justify their punishment? would we just take them for no reason? NO,

Yes we did.

http://readersupportednews.org/off-site-news-section/389-guantanamo-bay/5737-guantanamo-files-massive-leak-reveals-innocent-detainees

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0521-01.htm

At this point, I am more frightened of the Congress and other lawmakers in this country than anyone else. And, it is torture...period. All people deserve a trial. Just because they were locked up at this place, DOES NOT MEAN, they had anything to do with Sept. 11. That mind set is more along the lines of Iran or North Korea.

Right now, we need to focus on getting this country back together. BUSH is responsible for Gitmo and I wouldn't be surprised if he and Cheney knew about 9/11 before it happened. That is how much I trust those two. They need to be tried for crimes against humanity for starting a war that killed and MAIMED 4000+ of our men and women, based on LIES.

brian: Do you have any proof for the littany of allegations that you have made against the Taliban. Not that it matters, the misdeeds of your "enemy" visited upon the sympathizers to your cause, does not justify your separate choice to undermine your own principles.

The National security "secret" which is being protected is that 9/11/2001 was an INSIDE JOB. We, as a nation, have chosen, without public input, to protect that FALSE FLAG capability as a "STATE SECRET" into perpetuity. It protects our ability to do it to ourselves again, say if we ever need to blame the Pakistanis or the Chinese of attacking us.

You can always count on Sarah to show up late and bust out some truth.

As for this inside job tinfoiler above (I thought they all died out a long time ago) - WHY would our govt bother going through all that to justify a war when all we need to do is make up some BS about WMD's ?

I mean really, no point in killing thousands of your own people to justify a war when throughout human history we have been more than capable of simply making up some nonsense to accomplish the same thing.

Thanks, Shuk, lol. I'll be late to my own funeral, you know.

Timetravler - "Shuklack is one of those crazies who bemoans the influence of Christianity on Western society, but defends the rights of Muslims to build a victory mosque at ground zero, and these people absolutely plan to take over this country."

American Lobo- McCarthy would be proud of you for writing bigoted fear monger pieces like that.

McCarthy was right. Your name calling and beat-to-death terms like "bigoted" won't change anything.

"Fear mongering" is what the left is doing today with the whole sky is falling global warming scam to enrich the elitists of the world by hundreds of billions of Dollars per year selling "carbon credits"- the biggest scam ever devised.

The mosque site wasn't "at ground zero", nor was it intended to represent "victory", by the majority of those who wanted it built. In the minds of bigots, anyone they don't agree with trying to live or build(share) the same country as themselves, is a "takeover".

You really don't understand Islam.

It is the closest location to ground zero that could be obtained for this purpose. The Muslims have a tradition of building victory mosques in locations marking the defeat of "infidels". Get off of Media Matters and read some real news that the subversives won't tell you.

For example: Islamic expert Tawfik Hamid tells Newsmax that many Muslims will view the construction of a mosque near ground zero as symbolizing a “triumph over America.”

Hamid is well acquainted with the threats from radical Islam — he was once a member of a terrorist Islamic organization along with Dr. Ayman Al-Zawahiri, who later became the second in command of al-Qaida.

Today Hamid is a senior fellow and chair for the Study of Islamic Radicalism at the Potomac Institute for Policy Studies. He is the author of "Inside Jihad: Understanding and Confronting Radical Islam," and a regular Newsmax contributor.

http://www.newsmax.com/InsideCover/ground-zero-mosque-tawfik-hamid-hamas-obama-bloomberg/2010/08/18/id/367823
Read more on Newsmax.com: Hamid: Ground Zero Mosque Islamic Victory Symbol

Swan37, right back at you ,were you there. Geneva Convention does not apply to people out of uniform

Right back at you. Many of these guys were just picked up after being fingered by someone who was pissed at them. You are right they are out of uniform because they don't have one. They are civilians. I would imagine the torture is civilians is illegal. Also anyone who is picked up in iraq is in my view defending their country since we invaded Iraq without cause.

The fact that we had to use extreme measures on these POS shows a terrible lack of thought and imagination. During WW2 the British had a lot of high ranking German generals that they captured. They did not torture them for info. They were treated well, very well. Every inch of the places they were kept in was bugged and the Germans who thought they were safe and yapped and yapped. Give them trials. Military tribunals. Execute those like KSM and the others just never get released because they by their own admissions are soldiers/POW in a never ending war. I don't see any difference between Osama and KSM. We killed one without trial why not the other. Plenty of German, Italian, Japanese soldiers where shot after they surrendered.

TimeTravelor,

If you want to believe that be my guest. However, you don't get to run around calling yourself American, or claiming that you uphold liberty, or want "Constitutionally limited government", as I hear so often from the right.

In the meantime, I have a Muslim proof bunker I'm selling in Montana. It's also gaurenteed to protect against, the gay agenda, lazy Mexicans, and Planned Parenthood doctors that want to eat fetuses. I'll give it to you for a deal, $10,000 out the door.

Otherwise, I'm not sure if you're crazy with a touch of stupid, or stupid with a touch of crazy.

For example: Islamic expert Tawfik Hamid tells Newsmax that many Muslims will view the construction of a mosque near ground zero as symbolizing a "triumph over America."

That's right - religious radicals do indeed love twisting and contruing anything in order to claim some sort of victory or slight against them. That's what they do.

But - it doesn't make a bit of difference to me how terrorists want view it in their delusional world.

To me, a mosque would indicate a triumph over terrorism. An AMERICAN triumph of religious freedom, tolerance, and inclusiveness over the terrorist's goal of seeding division and hatred and FEAR.

A mosque near ground zero would say "Hey, terrorist fckheads, you want us to be scared of you? Well we are just soooo scared of you that we put a brand-new mosque right downtown... we are that means we must be shaking in our boots at Islam! I mean, isn't that what scared people do, invite the scary thing into your home? Wait it's NOT - oh noes! Oh, you want us to hate muslims and drive a wedge between our cultures so that you can further your agenda? Well, too fricking bad - this is America b!tches - and We have religious freedom here, and we're going to afford muslims the same equal treatment as we do all faiths. Oh, that just p!sses in your Wheaties doesn't it? Ruins your whole rhetoric against America trying to hate on muslims. "

Swan37, these people to which you speak have been vetted those deemed not worthy of detention were released, although some returned to the battlefield, none of which were covered by the Geneva Convention. First tribunal is coming up, don't worry they will get their trial.

Swan37, these people to which you speak have been vetted those deemed not worthy of detention were released, although some returned to the battlefield, none of which were covered by the Geneva Convention. First tribunal is coming up, don't worry they will get their trial.

Yeah right tell it to Khalid El-Masri. If for no other reason you don't torture people because you may have the wrong guy. This has happened many times. Don't BS me. Why not torture suspects here if it's the right thing to do? We can save it for those suspected of heinous crimes. What's good for the goose....

dave 294 said:

i am shocked that people are actually defending these people... did they not commit crimes that justify their punishment?

We don't know what crimes they committed because they were never charged with anything. They were 'suspected' of terrorism but never charged. So since they were never convicted of anything, then there is no justification for any punishment.

timetraveler said:

I believe that Cub was stating the curious position we modern Americans find ourselves in, when the legal system is worried more about the "human rights" of illegal aliens than the right of American citizens NOT to be INVADED by foreign nationals.

Many of the people ICE declares 'illegal' actually ARE us citizens.

Lack of proper training of immigration inspectors resulted in their mistaken conclusion that Sharon McKnight’s passport was fraudulent. McKnight spent eight days in Jamaica before returning to New York. While there, her luggage, containing all her money, was stolen. Airport workers contributed money so she could reach family members. Once there, her mother flew to Jamaica from New York to take her case to the US consulate in Kingston. With the help of Rep. Michael Forbes (D-NY), consulate officials determined that the passport and birth certificate, which immigration officials had declared fraudulent, were in fact real, and established McKnight’s US citizenship.

When Angela Boneva, a 34 year old went to renew her passport in 2003, the State Department told her she was no longer a citizen. Boneva's father was born in Indiana, and the US consulate in Bulgaria gave her U.S. citizenship while she was growing up in Bulgaria in 1981.The State Department said that an employee at the consulate broke a rule that required her father to have lived in the U.S. for 10 years before she was born, the Tribune reported. Her father had only lived in the U.S. for six years before moving to Bulgaria.

The son of a decorated Vietnam veteran, Hector Veloz is a U.S. citizen, but in 2007 immigration officials mistook him for an illegal immigrant and locked him in an Arizona prison for 13 months. Veloz had to prove his citizenship from behind bars. An aunt helped him track down his father's birth certificate and his own, his parents' marriage certificate, his father's school, military and Social Security records. After nine months, a judge determined that he was a citizen, but immigration authorities appealed the decision. He was detained for five more months before he found legal help and a judge ordered his case dropped.

Mr. George Ibarra, 46, was born in Mexico but was raised since infancy in Arizona. In his late 20s he enlisted in the Marines and served three years on active duty, including time in Iraq, before being honorably discharged. On February 23, 2011 Department of Justice adjudicator Richard Phelps ruled in Eloy, Arizona that George Ibarra had by a preponderance of the evidence proven that he is indeed a citizen of the United States. Rather than apologize to Mr. Ibarra for previously wrongfully detaining him, the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) is holding Mr. Ibarra in solitary confinement at the Eloy Detention Center, in clear violation of the U.S. Constitution and a memorandum requiring Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) to release anyone with "probative evidence" of U.S. citizenship.

timetraveler said:

We worry more about the rights of terrorists than the rights of Americans NOT to be terrorized. It's insane, it's damaging, and it will be our undoing.

No we aren't.We're worried about OUR rights as victims. We have the right to face our attackers in court We have the right to see for ourselves if what they are accused of is right or wrong. Don't forget the US is spelled 'us'.

Cub T said:

Amanda...You can quote the constitution, the billl of rights, even the bible all you want...We all live in a different world then the last generations.

I will give you that, yes. The world HAS changed a lot, and not all for the better.

The rules of the game have to be changed. The terrorists could care less about rules.

As it stands now, the Constitution is still the law of our land and I don't see the rules we currently live by and believe (equality, justice, fairness for EVERYBODY) changing until we tear up the Constitution. And despite the recent infringements, I really don't see that happening anytime soon for the majority of the American people

They want you dead. Can you not understand that? They could care less about you, your country or your God.

You say that about terrorists. I say that about some American citizens. Because ICE lost my adoption paper, I spent 3 years in a deportation camp listening to guards talk about 'taking the damn illegals out and giving us all a bullet in the head.' They certainly wanted me dead. I spent six months listening to the woman in the cell next to me be raped and camp officials 'could care less.' I spent more hours than I can count standing naked in a hall crying while deportation camp guards stuck fingers into my body to see if I had drugs in me because 'they could care less' about my human rights. I was given underwear that still had blood from another woman's period crusted on it because 'they could care less'. I was given food crawling with maggots because 'they could care less'. They could care less that the rights of a legally adopted American citizen were stripped away because the bureaucracy they worked for lost my adoption paper 18 YEARS after I was adopted. I lost my faith in God after watching the camp chaplain rape my neighbor every night; I am a practicing pagan and pray to a Goddess and yes, I know the majority of you could 'care less' about that too--after all, it is your own Bible that says 'Suffer ye not a witch to live.'

While I don't condone terrorism--I have not forgotten 9/11--I understand what indefinite detention without charge or trial feels like and I have a basic understanding of what they are going through; death threats, physical beatings, sexual assault, solitary confinement and physical isolation, witholding of food and water, temperature extremes with insufficient clothing, those are all things I experienced in the deportation camp. These things you do to terrorists, you do these things to your own citizens.

It's sad but it's true and all your preaching about how civilized we should be and turn the other cheek will not work in the world we live in.

I'm not saying to turn the other cheek. I'm saying we should prove we are better than they are by giving them the same basic rights we afford our own people.To treat them as our equals even if they don't think we are. To lead by example. To be the model that the rest of the world measures itself by, as we have done for the last 200 years.

And if you look at it from the opposite point of view--WE are exercising OUR right to face our attackers, to judge those who have wronged us. WE have victims rights. Remember 'us' is spelled US.

Swan, what does any of what I said have to do with torture, it's about detention

Shuklack-To me, a mosque would indicate a triumph over terrorism. An AMERICAN triumph of religious freedom, tolerance, and inclusiveness over the terrorist's goal of seeding division and hatred and FEAR.

A mosque near ground zero would say "Hey, terrorist fckheads, you want us to be scared of you? Well we are just soooo scared of you that we put a brand-new mosque right downtown..

Un-freakin-believable!!

What scares me much more than Islamic terrorists are Americans with these ridiculous viewpoints.

Would you have the same approach for child molesters - "I'll show these child molesters they don't scare me, I'll place my children with them unsupervised and I'll be the bigger person"? SHEESH!!!

I understand you think that these leftist views give you some kind of moral superiority, and I understand how futile it is to reason with a liberal. If your beliefs only affected your house, I wouldn't bother to argue with you, but such views affect the entire country, eventually destroying us.

American Lobo:

That may be true or it may not be. We'll honestly probably never know. My aunt had to go in to talk to these men wearing full body armor, including a mask (they would spit at her for trying to HELP them) and she was never allowed to reveal where she was from or who her name was. To them, she was Doctor. No more. No less. It was for her safety because the military told her if they somehow got information out about who she was, her family had a chance of being targeted. She said the arrogance they had towards her not just because she was a US soldier but because she was a woman doctor was astounding. Her job was to help them with any psychiatric problems they may be facing, but several (not all) did nothing but attempt to berate her and sexually harass her. She said some were actually mentally stable and would just talk to her though, so not all of them were horrible.

I know some of those prisoners aren't meant to be at GTMO, but after my aunt got out of the Navy and told us some of the things they would say to her, like "When I get out, I will hunt you down and murder you and your family like the dogs you are!" made me not feel sorry at all for some of them. It seems a bit heartless but according to my aunt, some of those guys have been diagnosed by several doctors as religious psychopaths who will kill anyone who stands in their way.

This is tortue that happened before President Obama took office. Did you even read the article?

bush is the dali-lama and Ghandi compared to the tyrant and assasin Obama.

Bush condoned torture! How can you compare him to Ghandi?

Nah, he didn't read it...

of course I read it and Obama promised to close gitmo but that doesn't matter to those who are indoctrinated followers of the one. Just keep believing the lies of Obama as long as the govt. checks keep coming right?

Have you ever heard of possible circumstances? BTW, you forgot "TAKE OUR COUNTRY BACK". LOL

Both Bush and O'bama have tortured and assassinated. They didnt do it themselves, so everything is ok...they can just claim ignorance to the matter.

No torture has been used under Obama's watch.

Take your blinders off, read up on things, then post

Liberty & Freedom. First, I suggest you re-read this article and this time.. a) take notes and b) try using some comprehension. Since you are so 'bent' on bashing obama on this one.. read this:

The controversial prison was ordered closed within a year by President Barack Obama when he took office, but stiff resistance in Congress over housing detainees in the United States and trying them in civilian courts have left most of 171 detainees in limbo as the base remains open.

Seems to me, Congress is once again, causing resistance. This is the primary reason Obama hasn't been able to do NEARLY as much as he could have his first term.

The real issue here is... How can this be allowed in our society? We sit back and criticize Iran..and yet, here it appears we are doing the same thing.

Your boy obama referred to us as the enemy. He signed the Bill to allow him to arrest and detain Americans without cause. NOT BUSH.

controversial prison was ordered closed within a year by President Barack Obama when he took office, but stiff resistance in Congress over housing detainees in the United States and trying them in civilian courts have left most of 171 detainees in limbo as the base remains open.

derp

No, bush was an intellectually challenged President mostly controlled by Dick Cheney and Carl Rove. The policies Obama now has in place are mostly the Bush policies. He could not close Guantanamo because the Republicans blocked having the "prisoners" brought to America for trial as other suspected terrorists have and are no in American prisons on American soil.

The Republicans have blocked almost every policy Bush put in place including the absolutely insane huge tax cuts IN TIME OF WAR. That was the only time in the history of the world a government had chosen to cut off revenue when they needed more to fight a war.

ItsAboutTime-3704531

Liberty & Freedom. First, I suggest you re-read this article and this time.. a) take notes and b) try using some comprehension. Since you are so 'bent' on bashing obama on this one.. read this:

The controversial prison was ordered closed within a year by President Barack Obama when he took office, but stiff resistance in Congress over housing detainees in the United States and trying them in civilian courts have left most of 171 detainees in limbo as the base remains open.

Seems to me, Congress is once again, causing resistance. This is the primary reason Obama hasn't been able to do NEARLY as much as he could have his first term.

The Democrats controlled The House and The Senate from 2008-2010 so who was causing resistance??? Get your facts straight, when will you liberals take responsibility for something???

Seems to me that you need to re-read the article and do your homework before you spout off typical Liberal talking points!

HUGE applause Hobbes from Texas

Obama had the majority in the congress and senate his first 2 years in office. If he and the democrats wanted it closed, they could have closed it. Why would we want these prisoners housed and tried in the US?

HEJUSTDOESNTGETIT -

The House and The Senate were in charge from 2008-2010 so who was causing resistance??? Get your facts straight, when will you liberals take responsibility for something???

Seems to me that you need to re-read the article and do your homework before you spout off typical Liberal talking points!

LOL - I do have my facts straight. Every single time that Obama has proposed legislation in Congress, the first thing you conservative do nothing republicans do is "I hate Obama", "dig your heels in the ground", and "spend your whole time whining, complaining, and trying to get him out of office", instead of doing the job that they were supposed to do. Congress may have had a democratic majority in the first 2 years of Congress, but that doesn't mean the majority was strong enough to close this base.

I have my facts straight, What did CONGRESS do to either support Obama on the closure or find alternatives. Also seems to me, that "BUSH" is the one who raised the bar on torture and the greatest loss of civil liberties in 75 years.

I've been tortured by Obama. Every day and night I am sleep deprived, I ask myself for hours on end why, why, why is this knucklehead purposefully and systematically destroying our country, and I suffer religious humiliation everyday through our state controlled media. The brainwashing is the hardest to slough off, as the Obama administrations' conceptual fodder is being spewed by nearly every "journalist" out there. moverforward2012? One step forward, two steps back for the last three years, although I really haven't even seen that one step forward. How about Stepoff2012?



Obama had the majority in the congress and senate his first 2 years in office. If he and the democrats wanted it closed, they could have closed it.

You seem to be unaware of how Congress works.



why, why is this knucklehead purposefully and systematically destroying our country,

One of the most nonsense assertions that I have ever heard of... keep saying it though and convince yourself that it's the case. Tends to be the entire right-wing strategy.



The brainwashing is the hardest to slough off, as the Obama administrations' conceptual fodder is being spewed by nearly every "journalist" out there

Maybe you should take that as an indication that you might be the one brainwashed.

Tell us how Congress works then....

Tell us how Congress works then....

Simply having a majority does not guarantee a highway of passing legislation.

This false assertion that because the Dems had a majority early on means that Obama should have been able to pass whatever he wanted is not only naive, but dishonest, and ... well... stupid.

It seems that simpletons have a hard time grasping that.

Congress works in the middle of the night in back room meetings shoving Govt Healthcare down our throats by bribing members because they didnt want it to happen. Congress works by voting for wars and then blaming Bush for everything. The Senate works by not passing a budget for three years. The Senate works by objecting to many jobs bills that have been sent up to Harry Reid for a vote. Remember from 2008-2010 Dems had complete control and from 2010-2012 they control 2/3rds of legislation. Please continue to educate us SKuKLack the intelligent one!

It seems, if you re-read history, the odumbacare was shoved down our throats on the Republican side of congress.....with the dems in control. The only reason they didn't vote to close GITMO..................they wanted reelected and doing that would have assured the dumbokrats would bee voted out.

This false assertion that because the Dems had a majority early on means that Obama should have been able to pass whatever he wanted is not only naive, but dishonest, and ... well... stupid

I find your explaination on how Congress works to be rather stupid.

Congress works in the middle of the night in back room meetins shoving Govt Healthcare down our throats by bribing members because they didnt want it to happen.

bipartisan strategy

Congress works by voting for wars and then blaming Bush for everything.

Well - he was pretty bad. Don't you agree? Yet when it comes to blaming the POTUS the right have definitely taken the top offender for that one. Late for work? Blame Obama. Hangover? Blame Obama. Every GOP candidate practically ends their sentences with "Obama's fault" instead of a period.

The Senate works by not passing a budget for three years.

Some bullsh!t there, I agree.

he Senate works by objecting to many jobs bills that have been sent up to Harry Reid for a vote.

Jobs bills? You mean bills laden with so much "no-pass" legislation that basically they are non-starters even in a Senate that has bent far to the right in order to compromise? These so-called 'jobs' bills are nothing more than red-herrings designed to fail so that blame can be put on the Democrats.

Remember from 2008-2010 Dems had complete control and from 2010-2012 the control 2/3rds of legislation

By that vein of logic - it would also be completely reasonable to play the "Blame Bush" card wouldn't it? A tad hypocritical.



I find your explaination on how Congress works to be rather stupid.

Your refusal to comprehend that simply having a majority doesn't guarantee a highway of passing legislation is stupid. But hey, refuse on. Deny deny deny.

Shuklack,,,why didnt the Dems discontinue the Bush tax cuts when they had both houses? Tell us how Congress works!!!

Tell us how Congress works!!!

Yay for a moving goalpost one-liner. You're a master debator. I won't feed the trolls.

Kornfed - the fact that you feel the urge to write President Obama's last name as O'bama pretty much disqualifies you as someone worthy of serious attention in any rational debate amongst adults. Unless, you can prove to me that Obama has somehow become Irish.

Writing our President's last name in various ways, intended to degrade, that essentially amount to what I expect to encounter amongst children, does not lend creedence to you as a mature individual.

And I feel the same way about Republican's names being written in insulting ways. I only make exception for those who have it coming - like having the last name Weiner and being caught posting embarrassing weiner pics online, well - thats walking right into it!

But in your case, kornfed, you show yourself to be the hayseed you are. Do you find that insulting? You should. Its to make a point with you. Grow up a little and stop calling people stupid made up last names like some mean little bully-kid, unless you want to be seen as an ignoramus.

Kornfed, what a remarkably well thought out retort

::hopes Kornfed is smart enough to pick up on sarcasm::

http://whitehouse.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/22/obamas-irish-roots/

No need to appologize...we know your sorry

I'm laughing at the statments which include "how congress works". Apparently, we must live in different countries, because I haven't seen much evidence of congress working recently in mine. Almost all of our elected "representatives" are there to serve their own agenda, not to worry about what's best for our country. Almost from the time of the swearing in ceremony, it's a constant play for reelection. This includes, although not a member of congress, our president, who has done little but campaign from the time he he moved into the office.

Shuklack you have nothing, They can pass one of the most unwanted pieces of legislation in history but cannot pass anything else? I think Obama just wised up a little about the real world when it came to a lot of those feel good Liberal promises he did not keep.

, They can pass one of the most unwanted pieces of legislation in history but cannot pass anything else?

And they had to jump through all sorts of hoops just to do that.... which in itself is an indication that the argument of "majority = personal potus highway of legislation" is a silly argument.

Do you expect them to do that for every piece of legislation?

This whole argument began with the false assertion that because the Dems had the majority early on that the President should have been capable of passing everything he wanted.

Well, you have proven it, kornfed.

Still has me on the fence though, as to if you qualify as a rational adult. Question is this: why do you feel the need to write our President's name as O'bama? When the discussion isn't about his heritage?

Is it an insult, a compliment? What point are you trying to make? And that is a genuine question. Whats the point, exactly?

Kornfed - Let's see... Bush gives the american people a "check" during his first years of office. Yep, remember that little government check we all received in the mail. = "I spent the surplus that Clinton left me"

Next.. Bush grants tax credits and cuts.... "yep" - Let's make sure the rich and corporations PAY LESS.

Next, Let's fight two NEW wars that we could not pay for in the first place

Now, you tell me how congress works?

The rural people on this blog are saying things like, "Yeah, torture 'em! They blew up the twin towers!"

Makes you proud to be an American. Dumb, ignorant and proud of it!

Still has me on the fence though, as to if you qualify as a rational adult. Question is this: why do you feel the need to write our President's name as O'bama? When the discussion isn't about his heritage

haha...shall I re-post your insults of me, or shall we just leave the obvious conclusion floating in the air.....I am flattered that you find me so refreshingly youthful.

Is it an insult, a compliment? What point are you trying to make? And that is a genuine question. Whats the point, exactly?

What is your hangup about my use of the word O'bama? Of course it is an insult. What is your point exactly?

ItsAboutTime-3704531

What makes you think I like Bush? I dont lock myself in to party politics like you fools do. I have the luxury of being a fiscal conservative that disagrees with Republican foriegn policy whole heartedly.

Congress works in the theater of party politics. The established parties take a stand and play the American public like sheep. Both sides play a ridiculously transparent partisan game in order to win favor of their voting base, while deceiving the fence riding independents that base their votes on the best deceptive headlines of the day.

What is your hangup about my use of the word O'bama? Of course it is an insult. What is your point exactly?

He already told you...that you are not to be respected as an adult in the conversation because you are acting childish.

He already told you...that you are not to be respected as an adult in the conversation because you are acting childish.

Would you like to explain how I am acting childish cul? I seem to be the only one able to refrain from the personal attacks. Dont you find the childish accusations rather hypocritical cul?

Would you like to explain how I am acting childish cul?

He already explained that as well.... try to keep up.

Kornfed:

You may very well not like Bush, but it is obvious you hate Obama or the fact that Obama is POTUS.

I have never hated Bush. I hated the fact that many Americans were fooled by his campaign and Admin.

Bush is actually a personable guy who'd probably be fun to hang out with at a BBQ or gathering.

Bush just wasn't leadership material(as shown by his resume of failure in management positions).

G.W. was too malleable and trusted his advisors. He wasn't shrewd enough, and let others(Cheney for example) set the tone of his Admin.

It's like picking a low level thinker who works the floor at Walmart, and putting them in charge of running the whole company. It just won't work most of the time.

Shuklack, Obama had 60 votes to pass healthcare, the same 60 could have closed Gitmo,jobs bill, immigration reform,budget should I go on?

wlee: Dems had 60 votes if you count Liebermann(who votes with the GoP 80% of the time), and Kennedy who was ill.

The thing is, the Dems don't vote in lockstep all the time(unlike most of the GoP).

Then, take into account how many times the GoP have blocked even letting issues even come up for a vote(MANY TIMES).

Obama never had a full majority. Some Dems and Independents, were fearful of being attacked/blocked by the GoP, should the GoP happen to gain a majority.

Personaly I find nothing wrong with Kornfeds remarks. They are honest without personal attacks you people throw out like greetings. You guys complain about people blaming Obama for everything yet that is exactly what you did to Bush and still do. Shuklack you said the bills being sent to the Senate were non bills then why not just vote on them.

American Lobo Lieberman voted 90% Democratc per NY times

How can Congress vote on something, when the GoP won't even allow something to come up for a vote?

AmericanLobo perhaps you should ask Harry Reid.

Maybe you should ask the GOP.

Reid doing so a few times, doesn't cmpare to the GOP doing so a MULTITUDE of times.