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A Predator drone is seen Nov. 8 at the Naval Air Station in Corpus Christi, Texas.
A digital rights watchdog group is going to court to demand that the FAA release details on drone spy flights within the United States.
The Electronic Frontier Foundation on Tuesday filed a lawsuit in federal court in the Northern District of California against the U.S. Department of Transportation, the umbrella agency for the Federal Aviation Administration.
"Drones give the government and other unmanned aircraft operators a powerful new surveillance tool to gather extensive and intrusive data on Americans' movements and activities," EFF staff attorney Jennifer Lynch said in a statement. "As the government begins to make policy decisions about the use of these aircraft, the public needs to know more about how and why these drones are being used to surveil United States citizens."
A message left Tuesday night by msnbc.com with the FAA’s media office in Washington for comment was not immediately returned.
Drones are pilotless aircraft whose flight is controlled from the ground. They typically are equipped with spying equipment, such as video cameras, infrared cameras and heat sensors.
The U.S. government has been using drones to carry out sensitive spying and attack operations abroad, such as in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
However, U.S. Customs and Border Protection uses drones inside America to patrol the borders, and state and local law enforcement are increasingly using unmanned aircraft for investigations into things like cattle rustling, drug dealing and searches for missing persons, according to EFF.
The group says such uses raise privacy concerns because drones, by virtue of their design, can fly virtually undetected in urban and rural areas.
The group’s lawsuit says any drone flying over 400 feet needs a certification or authorization from the FAA, but says the federal government is withholding information from the public about who specifically has obtained these authorizations or for what purposes.
EFF said that it filed a Freedom of Information Act request in April for records of unmanned aircraft activities but that the DOT so far has failed to provide the information.
"The use of drones in American airspace could dramatically increase the physical tracking of citizens – tracking that can reveal deeply personal details about our private lives," said Lynch. "We're asking the DOT to follow the law and respond to our FOIA request so we can learn more about who is flying the drones and why."
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This is ridiculous. If the Government or Law Enforcement are using the drones to track individuals the reason for doing so is to stop crime. The Government has no interest in what video games are being played or if someone is having an affair, they could care less. The only reason a Drone Controller would take interest in someones activities is if they are acting suspicious or breaking the law. The only real reason for someone to worry about what a drone sees is if they are doing something they shouldn't be doing in the first place like farming drugs, running illegals across the border or selling/transporting drugs or other illegal activities. The reason they are worried about this is because the drone can track who they are meeting and give the government information on others doing these illegal activities. This is also why the attorneys are upset about them. It is kind of hard to say your client is innocent when there is a 20 minute video of them committing the act.
If the Drone is working and producing usable information to prevent or hinder crime they should continue to be used and the FOIA should be refused based on the fact disclosure would effect National Security.
Yes we should have faith that the government always has our best interests in mind and would never abuse our trust. After all history is full of examples of unchecked authority used in a wise and benevolent fashion. Transparency and accountability are the refuge of scoundrels and law enforcement is never corrupt and self serving. And questionable national security risks should always trump that pesky bill of rights.
are you trolling or MAD!
You must be a member of the law enforcement community. The citizens of America don't like this invasion of our privacy
The average person has nothing to be worried about, if checking me out on a spy came helps catch some criminal than go for it. Its not like they are flying around every neighborhood checking on the average person. Come on people use your head, the only people that should be nervous are the ones that are guilty or would you folks rather ground the UAVs and have another twin towers or perhaps your making money off some good drug deals.
James Young-4430696, you're nothing but a fool to come here and say what you did. We understand that drones are the future, but transparency is vital to their public trust. In theory, the public (terrorists excluded) must be able to track any drone flying overhead using nothing but a smartphone app.
James Young, Nasty,....
Yes of course only nefarious individuals have to worry about being tracked correct? The Government doesn't monitor virtually everything you do, do they?
Would they take an interest in someone who espoused his views on say, MSNBC/NEWSVINE, about the intrusive Government practices? Would they possibly decide to track and monitor an individual who happened to believe in the Bill of Rights, ALL of them, and advocated for them? Would they track someone who spoke out against the recently passed and signed NDAA which virtually eviscerates the Posse Comitatus Act?
No... the Government would NEVER do anything like that now would they? The Federal Government is as innocent as a new born lamb, right?
Personally, I happen to like a little personal freedom and privacy. I know they're fleeting and slowly disappearing under the guise of safety, but I'll keep them none the same, no thanks to sheep like you.
Oh, by the way James.... you wouldn't mind some cameras to be placed in your home now would you? It's all in the name of security and safety after-all. We don't know when there might be some bad guys that take you hostage and force you do do evil deeds.
It's for national security isn't it?
James, keep drinking the kool-aid.
Is it really our business to know the flight pattern and schedule of drones that are supposed to be there to stop crime (illegals crossing the border, possible terrorist activity, drugs, etc)?. Wouldn't that kind of defeat the purpose of having them up there? That is just like that smart phone app that gave the locations of cops in the area...
If it's being used for other purposes, and some jerkoff in the CIA is getting off watching me go to work, come home, go to work, go to the bar, come home, go to work, etc... then so be it :)
James/Nasty
First they came for the communists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me.
This is a statement credited to Martin Niemoller, a German pastor who, in 1937, was sent to Sachsenhausen and Dachau for the crime of "not being enthusiastic enough about the Nazi movement.
Not equating our government with the Nazis but when people relinquish their power of self-determination and give those powers to governments, it's very rare indeed when a government willingly cedes those powers back to its people without major civil upheaval.
Wrong James. We are a nation of LAW that also guarateed rights and priviledges to the People via the US Constitution that protects us from government intrusion or interference without due cause! Our governments were not established to stop crime---it's the job of an active armed citizenry and law enforcement to deter it!
Unless they received a WARRANT from a Federal Judge to conduct this aerial search using Drones, then they're committing a crime! See Amendments 4 & 5. Trust me, if gou give the government official an inch, they will take 10 miles by breaking the very laws they took an oath to defend and were hired to protect! Those who say "I have nothing to hide" are dellusional if they honestly believe the government or local law enforcement is on your side and won't trump up charges or drag you through legal hell just to prove a point if they wanted to!
Go look at the "Innocence Project" if you don't believe me.
I trust local drug dealers more then the government. At least you know what they are up too...
now my name is being added to a "list" somewhere...
Keith 1952: You need to look up when privacy is expected. When you are out in public, there is no expectation of privacy.
XDm9mm: What do you think Google, Facebook, ISP, etc… are doing with your online information, they monitor you, they track you, they sell the information to others, they profile you and who knows what else?
--- right of privacy is restricted to individuals who are in a place that a person would reasonably expect to be private (e.g., home, hotel room, telephone booth).
There are alot of paranoid people out there. They want the camera's turn off, but then complain when crime goes up (they are also unwilling to pay for more police officers which is the reason the camera was installed in the first place)
KI - Growing up on the ranch I always expected privacy if I didn't see anyone around. If I can't see them they are invading my privacy.
We may complain about crime going up but it is because the media lies to us. Crime has been falling for years. No matter though, I doubt there are any of use that believe that if they violate our privacy that it will help stop crime.
In a perfect world you are right sir. We live in an imperfect world, our politicians care more about party and winning and profit then it's people or the countries future. This country is facing coming problems that are going to change who we are.
They of coarse need this system up and running soon because it will be watching as millions of our citizens are looking for food. Some say big inflation is coming and if it does it's going to wipe out most of us financially. 15000 Drones will come in handy for controlling the aftermath of over a 100 million moving into abject poverty. Ten percent inflation means $35 for a gallon of gas. Food, utilities, rent you wont be able to afford any of it. This system will collapse if inflation were to raise to ten percent, and some economist are saying this is a real possibility. So it should be apparent to you people that our politicians are making decisions that aren't doing us citizens much good. Our politicians can't be our most devious, for us to go forward they must be our patriots' and they must be held to a higher standard, with laws in place and an active population keeping an eye on them.
We the people have to start paying attention. We have to vote and write our congressman, call them and on occasion stand together, this is how democracy is supposed to work. Our governemnt is rotten with corruption and as honest citizens we need to get active in politics. Does anybody remember or understand what happened in 08. That's 2008 not 1908.
This is BS, the FAA should release the information. Big Brother has always been a threat to our privacy but using drones in Amercan airspace should be transparent to all. The line must be drawn somewhere in the sand!!!
Double edge sword. What if terrorists were working from within the homeland, say in Idaho? Wouldn't you want them surveillanced?
Nobody is saying they cant use drones, just that there be SOME level of accountability. You have a Right and Responsibility to know what the government is doing in your name, you cannot be an informed voter without information. Secrets are the enemy of democracy.
What if the surveillance was of political opponents. Without transparency whats to stop that?
I'm for accountability as well. We're entering grey areas here. Where does accountability stops and secrecy of mission begins? Those are the processes, procedures and limits that need to be sorted out.
"Protect, me protect me, protect ME!" but also tell the world how and where you're gonna do it.
What's next; all terrorist raids have to be publicized 24 hours in advance?
Maybe, just maybe, they should have to have a warrant, a public warrant to use surveillance.
Transparency? Are you kidding me? What about Posse Comitatus? This is UNCONSTITUTIONAL, no matter how you slice it and no matter how "transparent"!
No, I would want them arrested.
Sparrow:
As of Dec 31 2011 when the NDAA Act for 2012 was signed the US military can now be deployed on home soil in law enforcement action. The Posse Comitatus Act of 1860 has been repealed and no longer applies.
On the other hand, veterans coming back from overseas won't be standing in the unemployment line.
Maybe we need to invest in anti-aircraft guns.
As our illustrious poster has said-If you have nothing to fear,no sweat. OH MY GOD! Please help me with quotes all you constitutional scholars.There are many speeches,writings from our founders talking about giving up freedoms.Can you imagine-Our individual right to bear arms was upheld by the supreme court only by 5-4!!!!!!!!!!!!!.Drones!NO! Here in columbus,Ohio it was found to be OK to lojack these black kids car without a warrant!The legal precedent was set by ANOTHER local judge saying it was ok!Police are to protect and serve,mostly they do that.But we have seen that there are more than a few cops who are barely legal,or all but crooks themselves.These are the people you want to decide your rights?An illegal action is legal because a judge agreed w the good ole boys?Now those kids were guilty as sin.But I sure as hell don't want the government,OUR government deciding to "take matters into their own hands" For my own good-hah! If they want to do something helpful,they ought to enforce our borders and kick out the illegals.People who have access to better health care than you,because it is FREE!
It starts small. A little section about indefinite detention and the military being allowed to operate on domestic soil slipped into the NDAA that nobody wants publicized, a few drones flying above our country without our knowledge. When we finally realize how much of a police state we've turned into they'll have taken away so many rights that it'll be too late. NEVER trust authority. Always put in safeguards to prevent abuse of power.
If you think that sounds kooky then remember the Jews who didn't leave when they could, because they didn't think the Nazis were capable of being as evil as the rumors went.
Problem: Undocumented Aliens.
Governments thinking is all we have to do is Document the aliens and vola!~ No problemo.
One by one the government is removing all the safeties. It won't be long and the safety will be off and guess what? The gun will be pointed at the American people.
I suppose most people would not know but there are some laws that are being broken by the use of the Drones in US airspace. First by FAA rule and law, no un-manned aircraft can be flown out of visual range over US ground. Right now model airplanes are under scrutiny.
Second, man, the day there is a drone in a mid air colision with an airliner is going to be the day somebody pays big time. Drones are difficult to see by design. They don't carry normal aircraft warning lights and the ground controller doesn't have a clue as to the flight plan of general aviation or commercial aviation aircraft.
Get them out of US airspace now.
How would drones be different from cameras? If I understand correctly, they see what's happening out in public...
Cameras flying over private property... Its pretty well established that you have an expectation of privacy when out of view of public areas. Police need to show probable cause and get a warrant. If we allow this to go unchallenged we will be giving up a huge portion of our civil liberties. Freedom is lost by inches not huge leaps, if we don't pay attention to the little stuff it will sneak up on us.
And there's also thermal imaging and who knows what other tech these things have on board. We don't know the half of it.
Dont trust the goverment.They only do what is in ther best intrest.
The government cannot be trusted to respect our constitutional rights. Have we already forgot about warrantless wiretaps, where liberal left-leaning groups with no history of violence or subversion had their phones tapped, and movements monitored? A year from now we will find out that leaders of the OWS movement were victims of this obtrusive behavior...mark my words. This same crap has been going on since our founding. Are we so naive to believe that it is not going on now, and will not continue to go on in the future? I'm just saying...
I wonder how upset you'd be if they were scanning pictures of you masturbating!
Coupled with the passage of NDAA, we'll be sitting in military prisons pretty soon, because we say that we don't agree with the government! If this doesn't scare the living S%$T out of people, then they'll deserve the 4x4 cell that they'll be calling home! Home of the "brave", indeed! We have become afraid of our own shadows and will ripe for the picking. How do you see the future for your children, seriously?
Well, now that the Drug Cartels have paid $25 million to support the Watch Dog project, I expect they would like to know when and where the drones will be flying so they can direct their smuggling operations accordingly. On the side, there are plenty of persons who drive 100 miles an hour on interstates when they think the cops are not looking and now they are getting worried that the cops will use drones to film them. Ha Ha. Obey the laws and you don't have to worry about such issues.
You are sadly misinformed. The EFF has nothing to do with the cartels. The people here aren't worried that they won't be able to commit crimes without a drone watching them. They are worried about an invasion of privacy and an abuse of power, the removal of freedoms, and the destruction of the Bill of Rights.
On the flip side, I have no problem with drones being used on the border, with searching remote areas, even used in tracking criminal activity as long as the proper warrants are issued. I don't think we have reached the point where the drones are being used illegally, yet. But, the EFF has a point, the public should have some idea as to how they're being used and what oversite is utilized to protect US citizens.
"Obey the laws and you don't have to worry about such issues."
Famous last words.
Drones are for survellence, which while it can be applied to criminal cases, it is much more valuable for search and rescue. These drones can find downed aircraft, vehicles that have slid down a mountain, or someone that has drowned and is under ice. Threre is no other cost effective means for doing this today. It is a hudge step forward for rescuing lost and injured people, but has not been used due to concerns over public opinion.
JBA.... I don't believe anyone here is discounting or railing against drone use for S&R, or along the borders for aiding the interdiction of drugs. To be candid, they are laudable endeavors and should be applauded for the potential cost savings and personnel safety they provide.
Others and myself, object to their use in general SURVEILLANCE of the AMERICAN PEOPLE. When you consider this anticipated use along with the recently passed ans signed NDAA which virtually eviscerated the Posse Comitatus Act, it gives one pause and raises many questions.
The primary question is; As these technologies progress, what freedoms and liberties regress?
Oh, think again! They've already been used in California and I believe Utah? for drug busts, so the use is not anticipated, it's already happening.
Street veiw on google earth show my neighbor walking her dog - the dog is doing its duty.
I'm sorry, what were we talking about again? Oh, yeah, people worried about civil liberties because of drones.
Only the drone could catch you doing your duty on the throne. Some people may not care, but I'd prefer not to be watched.
another thing for liberals to complain about. ahhh, big brother! I think you may be thinking too highly of yourself if you believe you're going to have a drone follow you around.
And you're not thinking if you don't think these would be abused. History is full of governments who abuse powers granted to them without review of the subjected populace. America is quickly falling into the same trap.
What's wrong with requiring the FAA to comply with a Federal Law and supply the requested information? Information that, incidentally, is a matter of public record.
And you're not thinking if you don't think these would be abused. History is full of governments who abuse powers granted to them without review of the subjected populace. America is quickly falling into the same trap.
What's wrong with requiring the FAA to comply with a Federal Law and supply the requested information? Information that, incidentally, is a matter of public record.
Based on the government's record of task performance, I'm not as concerned about the use of a drone as much as the cost of operation. Is the data retrieved from this high cost surveillance worth it? Or is this supposed to be a growth industry? Cut back on the regular military and create Sky Surveillance...
you know if people would just stop and start using there minds they would all agree that our govt. is corrupt and using these drones in the united states is one way they are trying to take more of our rights away from us, they want you to think there using these drones to help with home grown terrists, and criminals, but what there doing is using these drones so when they decide to they can use them to take over our country and yes we lose everything including our right to freedom of speech.
We used to have unparalled faith in the man who held the office of President. Even if we didn't vote for him or really like his politics, most Americans respected the President and had faith in the office.
Then that man, that President of the United States of America, gave us Watergate.
Now we trust no one.
all I can say is read "1984" by Orwell. He wrote that how many years ago and now his book is almost at total fruition. :(
Combine it with "Brave New World" and you have society today.
"The innocent have nothing to fear." Never true, & always the first defense of authoritarians. If it were true, we wouldn't need a single thing in the Bill of Rights, because no one in power would ever try to silence someone who's opinion they didn't like, would never arrest someone who wasn't guilty, would never use search & seizure powers to harrass, intimidate, or punish people for unjust reasons.
Drones can kill people, by the way. And, under Bush's illegal interpretation of AUMF, and Obama's freshly signed NDAA, anyone deemed a combatant in the "war on terror" can be immediately treated like an enemy in the battlefield.
Consider, as well, that the FBI is currently prosecuting variouis political organizations as terrorists, not on the basis they planned or participated in terrorism, but on the basis their mere existence constituted "support." They said the wrong thing. Supported the wrong cause.
Whom do any of us trust with such power? Is anyone really so silly as to think a government that claims the right to secretly wiretap, follow, and indefinitely detain its citizens, to kill them with drone attacks in foreign countries, somehow will never abuse that power?
Where do people think oppressive authoritarianism starts? Do they think authorities declare the intention to abuse their power? Do they NOT understand that it ALWAYS occurs under the excuse that we need to give up rights and privacies to fight the "bad people?"
Put it this way: If secret wiretaps and killer drones and laws that say civil rights don't apply "sometimes" are not for the express purpose of creating a police state, they are, at the very, very least, exactly what you'd need to if you did want to create one.
Our government is corrupt. Our nation is fascist. We have everything to worry about.
Did you all miss the article about the Drones that are already being used in local law enforcement in the western states?
yeah saw that too
I don't quite see how this is a big deal in light of the fact that satellites have been spying on us for years. Phone tapping, computer hacking, warrantless searches... the right to privacy is long gone and has been for years.
Our cell phones are fitted with microphones that can listen to us even when the phones are turned off.
Our HD tvs and laptops, ipads are probably all fitted with cameras that we can't detect and are watching us right now.
Vehicles and cell phones are fitted with GPS.
Technology has exacerbated the situation beyond our reach.
Unless these drones are armed, I don't see any threat posed by them that doesn't already exist. In order for a drone to observe you it means you're already out in the open, so what expectation of privacy could you have?
Check out the movie "Blue Thunder". A footnote at the beginning of the movie says that All the weapons and surveillance systems shown in this movie are real and in use in the United States today. Way way before 9/11. Drones are just another tool, it's the people using them that have to be controlled in on how far they go using them. To paraphrase the NRA, Drones don't spy on people, people spy on people. I have no problem with law enforcement having advanced weapons or surveillance systems as long as there are reasonable rules governing their use. I do object to a paranoid and/or nosy neighbor having automatic high powered weapons and/or stealth drones. As for border control, I say, Go for it! Hell, put high intensity, nonlethal weapon systems on them. Nothing like a couple of blows from high velocity rubber rounds and/or a tear gas attack to make a person change his mind about where he's going.
The slippery slope-COMIN UP!. .You folks who think this is ok.Are you the same people who abhor our roots as well?Many don't like hearing about things that are the benchmarks of our great land .Doing the"christian thing"[what is right] helping those in need,generosity,protecting the weak.We are splintering this country,everyone getting their little piece.God,yes god,forbid oyu look beyond your personal bent to see we are weaving our own destruction.PS THIS kind of chatter goes in a database