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Subscribe to RSSMSNBC's Thomas Roberts talks to Democratic strategist Julian Epstein and MSNBC's Joe Watkins about new poll numbers that lend insight to fellow Mormons' perception of Mitt Romney as a candidate, the politics of the Mormonism, and how the religion itself shaping debate on the campaign trail.
A study out Thursday takes another look at the uneasy relationship between Mormons and evangelical Christians, a timely issue as Mitt Romney, a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, seeks to wrap up the Republican presidential nomination next week in heavily evangelical South Carolina.
The report, by the Forum on Religion & Public Life of the Pew Research Center, says Mormons and white evangelicals share strong beliefs in prayer, the Bible and conservative politics but disagree sharply over theology. About half of Mormons in the survey said they felt hostility from evangelicals.
The Associated Press has a breakdown of the data here.
The report is generally consistent with several that have been undertaken in the last few years, most recently a survey in October of Protestant ministers, 75 percent of whom disagreed with the statement, "I personally believe Mormons (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints) to be Christians." Sixty percent said they "strongly disagreed."
The survey found that evangelical ministers were more likely to "strongly disagree" that Mormons are Christians than were mainline Protestant ministers.
In a look at the issue in the context of Romney's campaign, Philip Roberts, president of Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, a leading Southern Baptist institution in Kansas City, Mo., told msnbc.com that the evangelical distinction was drawn over much more than differences of opinion that developed a millennium after the crucifixion of Jesus:
The LDS Church "radically reconstructs the historic Christian doctrines on God, Jesus and salvation," said Roberts, the author of "The Counterfeit Gospel of Mormonism" and for many years a senior leader of the Southern Baptist Convention, the nation's second-largest denomination.
"I think evangelicals look at Mormons as basically having a belief in God and the 10 Commandments, and Mormons are generally known to be morally traditional and to confirm much of the Judeo-Christian ethic," Roberts said in an interview. ...
But "they deny the confessions of the church," he said, referring to a series of statements of fundamental Protestant beliefs about salvation over the centuries.
Read the full msnbc.com story: Romney campaign puts Mormon faith in spotlight
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Neither are Christians. Read the Bible. Christ gives control of Christianity to Peter. His apostle and the first Pope. "Thou art Peter (rock) and upon this rock I will build my church" Christ built his church on Peter the first Pope. All else is just heresy. That makes Luther, Smith and all others false prophets. That is if you believe the Bible is the word of GOD. (catch 22)
Nice point Devil's son, but you used logic and actual historical knowledge about the Christian religion, that was your first mistake. The last thing religious people want to hear is anything factual regarding the histories or true doctrines of their religions.
And let's face it, Mormonism is crazier than Scientology.
Oh, how the religious never actually do their homework to see what it is they are really worshipping, hilarious!
Nope, it all depends upon interpretation. You can firmly declare that ". . .the keys to the kingdom. . ." means one thing and I can just as firmly say that passage means something else. That's the kind of dogmatic thinking and mean spirited comments that make people hate Christians.
The article nicely skirted around the simple statement that Mormons do not accept the Nicene Creed or any modernized version that did not distort it. This is the so-called dividing line between Christians and everyone else. You can believe all the other stuff you want, but the Nicene Creed is not open to "cafeteria" choices. It is a situation of believe it all or not at all.
I would think it a poorly trained seminarian who would not immediately go to this argument. It is exactly why the Creed exists.
The more I read of Mormonism, the more it seems like a cult-like money-based business that has visions that always fix IRS problems.
Luther was not a prophet.
Mormons’ theology is based on New Testament Christianity, not Fourth Century Creeds. For example, the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) views on Baptism, Lay Ministry, the Trinity, Theosis, Grace vs. Works, the Divinity of Jesus Christ comport more closely with Early Christianity than any other denomination. And Mormons’ teenagers have been judged to “top the charts” in Christian Characteristics by a UNC-Chapel Hill study.
Read about it here:
http://MormonsAreChristian.blogspot.com
Those who question if the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) is a Christian denomination usually are mis-informed because New Testament Christianity iscloser to Jesus Christ’s teachings than Fourth Century Creeds. Mormons have a better understanding of Christianity than any other denomination, according to
a 2010 Pew Forum poll:
http://www.pewforum.org/Other-Beliefs-and-Practices/U-S-Religious-Knowledge-Survey.aspx
11 of the signers of the Declaration of Independence (including several presidents) were non-Trinitarian Christians. Those who now insist on their narrow Trinitarian and salvation only by grace definition of Christianity for candidates for public office are doing our Republic an injustice.
Mormons believe in God, in the Holy Ghost, and Jesus Christ as the Lord and Savior. They believe in the bible as well as ANOTHER testament of Jesus Christ called The Book of Mormon. How can this not be considered Christianity? Just because it is not exactly Protestant doesn't mean it isn't Christian. As a matter of fact, in CA, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the 2nd largest religion....behind what I can only guess is Catholicism. Speaking of which, I know at least two of the republican candidates are Catholics. Catholics don't follow Protestantism, yet those candidates are not getting judged on what religion they believe in like Romney is. I'm not even sure if I am going to vote for Romney, but I think a lot of the stereotyping and religion bashing is pretty unfair.
ANOTHER testament of Jesus Christ (Alah) is called the BOOK OF QURAN!! I find it difficult to believe Jesus Christ made so many errors that he had the bible corrected by Jehova Witness interpretation, Book of Quran interpretation and the Book of Mormon interpretation!! What is wrong with the actual bible??? I find it difficult to believe any religion has their own version of any book that supercedes the bible. The book of mormon and the book of quran is just each religions attempt to convert the bible to their own beliefs. It has nothing to do with errors Jesust Christ made in the bible. I believe the bible is the bible and no other book should takes it's place, ever!! In area where I live missionaries claim book of mormon is result of Joseph Smith being told by Jesus Christ to 'rewrite' the bible to make corrections on behalf of Jesus Christ!! Book of Quran is allegedly for same reason as instructed by Alah. Maybe I will find time to rewrite the bible to accomodate me someday.
Evangelicals consider Mormonism a cult and the Pope the whore of Babylon. Neither one is acceptable.
Ever read the history of the Popes and the vain efforts to connect the line to Peter? One very morbid history of criminals whom God would never approve to lead his church. Any connection to Peter- hardly.
Evangelicals are a bunch of ranting crazies! I try to ignore them.
"My made up religion is better than yours!" "No my made up religions is better than yours!"
Let's just forget about real issues and argue over fairy tales and bedtime stories.
No one ever worshiped Jesus in his life, He never asked any one to worship him, he never said " I am God", through out his life he maintained that God was someone other than him. He ate, drank, slept, performed his bodily functions, got tired, had limited knowledge, suffered from all the physical shortcomings of a human being, couldn't defend himself, was born of a woman, had 46 chromosomes, He died. Interesting "god" indeed. If you ask me anyone who worships Jesus, is actually not a follower of his.
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Mark 10:18
bFromNJ: -he never said " I am God"-
That would be an okay thing to say if you were also saying that the New Testament is an inaccurate account of what a historical man named Yeshua said, but then you quote Mark 10:18 as your proof (which by the way, when Jesus said, no one is good except God alone, He didn't state that He (Jesus) wasn't good and He didn't say He wasn't God). How about: John 5:18, 5:22-23, 8:58 10:30, 14:9, 17:5, 20:28 those all say that Jesus is God to anyone who is willing to read them and has enough reasoning capacity to move from 1=1, to the reasoning required for 1+1=2.
-"No one ever worshiped Jesus in his life"-
John 9:38. Thats at least one; clear in English and Greek.
You don't have to believe that Jesus is God, that He is the only way for your sins to be forgiven, or that the Bible is true (although I would suggest you be sure about it before you dismiss it), but it isn't very reasonable to say something is one way or another, with absolutely no support except that you said so.
In the smaller picture none of this matters because both have a right to believe as they wish. However in the bigger picture this says a great deal. Throughout history the different religions have been at war with each other, demanding converts even by death. Countries have been destroyed, men, women and children murdered and all in the name of their GOD.
Now they want to use a different kind of weapon, now they want to use the LAW to control the ones they believe are DOOMED to the fires of HELL, which by the way happens to be ANYONE that does NOT believe and live as they see fit. Women and children will once again be nothing but property and women will be forced to have baby because birth control will seen as a SIN.
The so called God fearing are the very ones preaching racism, bigotry and total control from cradle to grave, which is why many of us walked away from religion.
Book of mormon,,,,,,,book of quran......watchtower....maybe I will just write my own interpretation of the bible and claim I was given secret instructions to correct/reinterpret the bible for the human race and begin a whole new religion.
LDS believe the bible has many mistakes and Joseph Smith was instructed to create the book of mormon to correct the bible? I was told that is why there is a book of mormon by LDS missionaries many times. Yet they claim the book of mormon follows the bible completely. Contradiction if you ask me.
Book of quran worships Alah and their religion introduces a whole new interpretation of the holy bible. Much of the book of quran contradicts the bible as well.
Watchtower has yet another interpretation of the bible and they allegedly created watchtower to assist others with interpreting the holy bible. Yet their interpretation contradicts many of the other religions insterpretations.
All of these religions believe Jesus Christ/God was capable of making mistakes so drastic each religion had to rewrite the holy bible into their own books for their religious beliefs.
Each religion expects their followers to accept there were mistakes in the holy bible and their versionis the correct version written in their own book.
None of the religions dispute the holy bible says: Judge not lest you be judged
Yet all of the religions pass judgment on other religious beliefs and gay/lesbian relationships.
All of these religions believe gay/lesbian people make a choice to be gay/lesbian and claim God did not make them that way.
So we are to believe Jesus Christ/God made mistakes forcing them to create their own books they expect followers to believe in and live by but Jesus Christ/God did not make mistakes in humans resulting in gays/lesbians!! Really???
Nearly all of the people in these religions pass judgment and show extreme prejudice against other races, religions, political beliefs and gays/lesbians.
Amazingly enough I have not found one place in the holy bible that states any of the people of any of these religions have been given exclusive right to judge any other human being!!
Many religions appear to be hypocrites of the holy bible. There are millions upon millions of people of different races/color/creed/religions in this world. There are also millions upon millions of gays/lesbians in all races/color/creed/religion in every country in the world.
If we are all children of God according to the holy bible and all religions follow the holy bible, they shouldn't we all accept gays/lesbians as human beings and not judge them, like the bible says!! Or was Judge not lest you be judged another mistake in the bible none of the religions have corrected yet?
I have never seen a religion without contradictions. People do not believe because of what is written, and the do not believe because of evidence. They believe only because they want to, they believe because of faith. It is wrong for any person to ridicule the faith, or lack of faith, of others. Faith is a very personal thing, and is nobody else's business.
I have my personal beliefs about what others believe. I do not agree with Evangelicals. I believe many Evangelical leaders appear to use mind control and mass hysteria on their followers, but both these leaders and their followers are free to choose -- just as long as they do not try to impose their beliefs and their view of morality on me. Their freedom to believe imposes no obligations upon me.
Great, let's argue and fight and go to war to see who has the best invisible sky fairy friend.
Joseph Smith, prior to his "discovery" of Golden Plates, was convicted of fraud, and jailed, for leading people to believe that he, with his "seer stones", could help them find gold. The duped complained to the authorities, Smith was arrested, tried, and found guilty. This is public record.
After Smith's release, soon thereafter he "found" the so-called Golden Plates that no-one but him has seen. Like a stubborn brat, he wouldn't let go of the notion that he had been proven an idiot. Look here, I told you there was gold in them thar hills!
Smith was known as a child to have grandiose stories of fantastical realms and was known to annoy his neighbors - the testimonies whose of course are mostly hidden or destroyed.
The Native Americans are said to be one of the lost tribes of the Jews, yet, their DNA has no smidgen of Jewry in them - the Indians are instead descended of the Far East.
There's so much stuff Smith claimed that's easily debunked it's silly. Anyone who believes in Mormonism is silly - I consider Moroni, the golden boy blowing his horn atop the spire whenever I drive by the Temple, the Pied Piper, for that's what the Mormons are; pied pipers leading their faithful to hell.
Romney, Huntsman, and their ilk are not worthy of the Office of President based purely on their susceptibility to what I'd consider an Atheist's club, after all, who could in their deepest heart of hearts believe in the bunk that a Mormon represents.
They're NOT Christians - they don't believe in the Holy Trinity, that Jesus is God, and the only way to Heaven is through Jesus alone. Simple as that.
Nice to see that you are an expert on all things Joseph Smith and of course Mormonism, DNA, Jewish history, the Far East, Pied Pipers, Moroni, the office of the President, Atheists, the Holy Trinity, annoying neighbors, public record keeping, seer stones. I am rather impressed. However, please go on record with how many times you have personally read the Book of Mormon. Thanks! Just kidding. We all know that you don't have the courage or humility to say that. Actually, the fact that you got your chronology incorrect with your opening sentence tells me what I need to know. But good job pretending to know stuff. It helps other people feel empowered to rant about all the stuff they think they know too. Keep up the good work! There's a reason America is going down the toilet. People like you parading around like know-it-alls instead of admitting that you know only enough to be dangerous. Thanks for the laughs!
The last thing we need in office is a religious whackjob of any stripe, but at least if Romney end up in office we'll get years of Mormon jokes out of the deal.
I just keep the spirit of the Lord in my heart. I pray every morning and ask the Lord to help me conduct myself like a man that prays every day.
I don't feel I need any church or religion to show me how to praise or show respect to the Lord.
You believe what you want and let me believe what I want, don't persicute me or kill me because I don't believe as you.
We are all born with the spirit of the lord within us. That is how we know right from wrong and when we are in a bad situation. What you do with your feelings as to what is right or wrong is your business.
The Lord will judge you for them.
It cracks me up how clueless people are. I especially enjoy seeing people pretending to know things they really know nothing about whatsoever. So...the definition of Christian is obviously open to interpretation. What's interesting is that even Christ didn't refer to his followers as Christians. So to be more scientific, let's do this: let's ask all of the churches on earth that believe in Jesus Christ as the literal Son of God to step forward that actually call its members by the same title used by the Savior, Jesus Christ. Any takers? All you excellent readers and believers of the Bible know that a SAINT is what members of Christ's church were called at the time he lived. So it would be nice if this so-called "study" started with the right basis: members of Christ's church are SAINTS, not Christians. If you want to be labeled as a Christian that's great but please don't confuse a Christian with a Saint. They are not the same, never have been and isn't it interesting that even Jesus Christ knew better than to label the members of His church CHRISTIANS. That's way too self-serving and pompous for the Son of God. Leave it to the misguided founders of false churches to get it wrong. If you believe in Christ and actually believe that he knew what he was doing when he bothered to form HIS church, then you would see that any church whose members are NOT referred to as SAINTS could never be HIS church. That's clue number one that a church is NOT following Christ's perfect example. So I am proud to NOT be grouped with the CHRISTIANS of America and instead stand with the SAINTS. It's simply one more evidence that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints actually takes direction from somebody other than a mortal.
Where exactly is your historical evidence for the first followers of Jesus calling themselves the "Saints," besides it fitting nicely into the LDS name? I'm not saying they did not call themselves saints in correspondence or reference, Paul's letters are full of the word (but it is used to reference those who have been made holy through the redeeming work of the Messiah, not a name to call oneself), but as far as I can find Jesus never told his followers to call themselves saints (by the way the Greek word for saint is simply the word for Holy, the same word used in Holy Ghost, so yeah, it would seem pretty vain to call yourself The Church of Saints). I am a Christian (a derogatory term given to followers of Jesus by those in Antioch) is better than saying, I am a saint (the same as saying I am a holy one).
The group was probably more commonly known by outsiders as "Followers of the Way" or "Nazarenes." They were called Christians first in Antioch according to Acts and embraced it, though it was meant as derogatory (in fact because it was meant as derogatory).
In the U.S. for the past few centuries, it is no longer a special term, many people who have probably never opened a Bible call themselves Christians. So those who follow Jesus as the Messiah (his last name isn't Christ; "Jesus the Christ" or "Jesus the Messiah" would make more sense in English) may have to come up with a new term or go back to Nazarene, but the right choice wouldn't be to run around calling yourself a saint (because none of us are).
I still want to know "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?".
I believe it is 47.