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Subscribe to RSSThe U.S. military is in damage-control mode after a video surfaced of Marines urinating on the dead bodies of Taliban fighters in Afghanistan. NBC's Jim Miklaszewski reports.
The answer to why Marines decided to urinate on dead bodies in Afghanistan could lie in the adrenaline-charged nature of combat and coping with the stresses of war, which can make behavior incredibly unpredictable, experts say.
Then again, the Marines shown in a YouTube video just might be "idiots."
“These could be pranksters with extremely bad taste, or they could have other, deeper issues, like PTSD. We don’t know,” Eugenia Weiss, a military psychologist at the University of Southern California, told msnbc.com.
A video, which was posted on YouTube, shows men in Marine combat gear standing in a semi-circle over three bodies. It is unclear if the dead are Taliban or civilians or someone else. The title on the posting called them Taliban insurgents and said the Marines were from Camp Lejeune.
'Deplorable': Defense chief condemns urinating Marines video
A number of investigations have been launched, though officials have yet to officially verify the video's origin or its authenticity. Still, no evidence has emerged to doubt what it is.
NBC's Jim Miklaszewski on the ramifications of the video that allegedly shows marines urinating on corpses.
"It clearly appears to be to us what it appears to be to you — troops urinating on corpses," Pentagon spokesman Capt. John Kirby told reporters Thursday.
It’s impossible to predict how individuals will respond to combat, and why some have difficulty coping and act on inappropriate impulses while others can adapt, said Weiss, who treats Marines near Camp Pendleton.
It is known, she said, that once engaged in war, particularly in places like Afghanistan, heightened adrenaline and increased stress occur.
'Hyper-vigilant state'
“There is this constant, hyper-vigilant state you have to maintain,” Weiss told msnbc.com. “You have an unknown enemy, even a woman walking down the street can be carrying a bomb to blow you up, and you have no green zone, no safe place to get away. This creates ambiguity. And the more ambiguity the greater the stress because of the situation.”
In addition, there is a group dynamic that can kick in among people engaged in close combat.
The act of urinating on the dead bodies “could be a coping mechanism in dealing with a very difficult situation,” Weiss said. “Or it could be this sense of vengeance, because a lot of troops in combat have lost comrades in the line of duty, or even post deployment from suicide or have later died from injuries. So there can be this great sense of vengeance. And that certainly can turn twisted.”
She also said it may have simply "started as a lewd joke, and often times that can get carried too far, you get a group dynamic that kicks in, and perhaps vengeance."
“War-time experiences are traumatic for many men, not only because they are inherently traumatic for all human beings, but also because many men believe they should be able to handle the powerful emotions such experiences create, with little or no personal difficulty,” Michael Addis, a psychology professor at Clark University in Worcester, Mass., told msnbc.com. “Many male veterans are also unprepared for the intense fear, anxiety and personal feelings of vulnerability that can result from combat exposure.”
At least two of the four men have been identified as Marines based at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina, a Marine official told msnbc.com, speaking on condition of anonymity because there is an active criminal investigation of the incident.
Still, combat stress is no excuse for the behavior, retired Col. Jack Jacobs, an NBC News analyst and a Medal of Honor recipient for his actions in the Vietnam War, told msnbc.com.
Col. Jack Jacobs explains how the video ignited international backlash and what it may mean for talks between the U.S. and the Taliban.
"I've been through combat and been stressed out, and I've been out of combat and been stressed out, and I don't think it's a reason or an excuse for this kind of behavior. They've received instruction on how to act and what to do before and after their deployment." Jacobs said. "These are just idiots who are poorly supervised and led ... they proved they are idiots because they took pictures of it."
'Fight to the death'
But for another veteran the video is not shocking at all.
"Many people in this country that worry far more about public relations and how we are perceived by the rest of the world are shocked at Marines urinating on Taliban," retired Army Sgt. Maj. Herb Freidman, an author and authority on psychological operations, told msnbc.com. "Why? They are murderers and terrorists that think nothing of blowing up soldiers, civilians, women and children. What have they done to deserve our respect? There are Marines being killed and maimed on a daily basis by these people. They are flying in from Muslim countries all over the world to get their crack at martyrdom. If some Marine that fought them in battle fair and square feels that he has the right to urinate on a defeated enemy, what is the problem? Hell, it could be worse.... It is a fight to the death, not some sort of gentlemanly duel with seconds and everyone very politely drinking a fine wine afterwards."
Pentagon officials said the criminal investigation would likely look into whether the Marines violated laws of war, which include prohibitions against photographing bodies and detainees and a range of other rules.
“These types of cases are fairly rare, and these are rare circumstances,” Phillip Cave, an attorney in Washington, D.C., who defends service members in court-martial proceedings, told msnbc.com. “It might be there is more going on, but nobody has put it on the Internet.”
After investigation, Cave said, it’s likely those involved in the incident as well as the person who videotaped it and posted it on the internet will be prosecuted under either administrative or criminal court-martial proceedings.
They could face charges under Article 134, which is the general article on conduct, he said. “In order to establish that you have to have either conduct that’s prejudicial to good military discipline or conduct that’s considered service discrediting. When we talk about services discrediting, we’re talking about giving the Marine Corp a black eye and downgrading the public’s perception of them as good people.
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I really do not care if our Marines pissed on some Afghany asswholes. I also don't care if the Afghanistan government is outraged. What these young men did was nothing compared to what our young warriors would get from them! This is not a big deal to me! Sorry.
wouldnt you do the same if a foreign army invaded your country?
Starter19 has the stench of the Taliban about him. Either that or he's a young liberal. Which is worse?
Grandpa...evidently you have never been in combat.......you old fool......we kill but don't piss..right? We did invade two countries and spent all of our treasury doing so. Makes alot of sense to triple our debt and lose US lives, for what? Cheney said we would be met with flowers and our oil would go down...yeah right.Grandpa you are a coward, you the kind that would make childish remarks on the computer but scared in real life......nothing worse then a wanna-be. Typical conservative.
Extreme stress? I don't think so.
Extreme bad judgment and pointless amusement? Yes. And likely to lead to acts of retribution, and the deaths of Americans.
I enjoy that we live in a world where it's reasonable to KILL someone, but PEEING on them is an outrage.
Let's get real.
May we should give those soldiers to the Taliban and see what they do to them. I would bet that would be the last time that a US soldier ever does anything like that again.
I just love that -- another lame excuse for a military that is out of control and committing nothing short of treason by enabling the enemy to recruit terrorists.
They think they have enough b@lls to dress up in their little camouflage outfits and invade a country, rape the children, murder the civilians, but when someone fights back it's "oh mommy, I got a little stressied, I didn't mean to do a bad thing, I was just showing off for my little friends."
This military is as lame as one would expect from this generation. Don't get me wrong -- I don't want them brought home, even though we deserve what we get when they come home to roost. I'm just tired of my tax dollars going to finance the recruitment of terrorists and the disgust of the civilized world.
Hey flag waver, we are now spending more on interest payments for the national debt than we spend on the war effort. We still spend more on "entitlements" than defense. The wars didn't drain our treasury.
Tom Adams, why don't you go over there and fight? You are a coward for making such a statement as you have obviously never been to combat. The Taliban think it's perfectly ok to slowly saw off the heads of 10 year old school girls and to murder their own sisters and daughters simply for learning or dating, yet it's such a sin to piss on a dead body? You sir are a complete moron.
All I ask is that if you have never been in a combat situation to please do not judge them too harshly.
War is hell.
Grandpa,
go back to your chicken pot pie and beer. there are rules of war that a numbskull like you obviously doesn't understand. nitwit
I'll be honest, I don't care that they pissed on enemy corpses, this is war after all and much worse things have happened and will happen, what I care about is them being stupid enough to videotape it.
Rules that only we follow, our enemy has no rules, which is why we will never "win" any unconventional war now or in the future.
The only way I can see to get young men and women to fight a war and kill is by villianizing (is that a word?) the enemy to an extreme. Urinating on them, while not acceptable is understandable. It's disingenuous of our government to expect otherwise.
First, this is an indicator that good military discipline has broken down in that unit. Second, this is a violation of the Law of War and the Geneva Conventions, specifically Article 15 (1957):
At all times, and particularly after an engagement, Parties to the conflict shall, without delay, take all possible measures to search for and collect the wounded and sick, to protect them against pillage and ill-treatment, to ensure their adequate care, and to search for the dead and prevent their being despoiled.
This unit was a real war attrocity waiting to happen. We know this from history. Units that beging to commit crimes against the bodies of the enemy eventually start to commit them against the living. I'm glad this came to light. This was hardly and isolated incident. This unit is out of control. If they have PTSD, then it is the job of their commanders and leaders to see that they maintain military standards of conduct until they are out of the war zone and can be treated. PTSD is a miitagating factor. it's not an excuse.
Chuck wagon it is for sure you have never been even close to combat. There are no rules when someone is actually shooting at you. Things like this have always been done in combat, I know for sure it was done in vietnam. However most are never stupid enough to film it and then put it out for others to see.
Harold, if you did these things in a war zone, then you committed a war crime. The battle was OVER.
Whether this was due to bad decision making, bad prank, PTSD, or plain idiocy, war isn't pretty. There are far more important things to worry about other than these men peeing.
what surprises me is not the videoing of this act (a really really stupid move, leave no evidence dummies) as its becoming so incredibly common to show the entire world even the most mundane of your actions. tha part i dont get is the people that are outraged by their actions, i mean its war people, it isnt pretty, it isnt humane, it isnt civil. these are our enemies, i mean were not suppossed to hate em? the enemy would and have done things 10 times worse than this. if our soldiers are killing the enemy, and not innocents, i dont care what they do, pi** on em, string em up, use em for target practice, play basketball with their heads, who cares, i dont, theyre still heroes to me.
In war the enemy is dehumanized, it's a psychological protection mechanism. It's a lot easier to shoot at 'something' rather than 'someone' The Taliban dehumanize by pointing out that infidels are animals in the eyes of their particular interpretation of the current human deity, our troops dehumanize correspondingly. Why should you respect someone who has tried to kill you, has killed your friends and want to lay waste to your whole country given the chance, simply because you do not believe as they do? As for protecting their country, get real, the Taliban (or students) are for the most part militant religious outsiders and left their humanity behind when they decided all infidels are targets and all women are brainless property.
War, religion, country, are all human fabrications to pass the time on this little ball of rock floating in the infinite black.
all i gotta say is that 1)This aint a war crime 2( the muj zombies dont follow rules 3) once again kissing ass for the towlies-WTF!!! sick of this @!$%#! Marines are trained to kill....not bring puppies, flowers, and windmills 4) good thing i'm not over there, i'd get arrested for war crimes too! Maybe the best thing is to act like the enemy..cuttin off heads, and put em on al jazeera, hang em from bridges and set them on fire, or drag them through the streets tied to cars....i guess thats better, right?
Having been there, and considering myself to be a well-educated, worldly person, I supposed I would keep my basic respect for all human beings regardless of their behavior.
I feel badly even acknowledging that I have little to no respect for most of the people there. It's socially acceptable for men to rape boys, as girls are dirty-yet someone coming out as "gay" would be killed. They think westerners are immoral, they generally marry their 1st cousins because they can only socialize with family, the NCOs and officers generally steal their subordinates' paychecks, they generally flee in battle and abandon their comrades..
These marines are stupid kids who video taped something that should've been left to their memories. As for the people somehow implying we "desecrated" the Afghan dead, I beg to differ. Most of the Afghans over there have no respect for their own dead-or living, for that matter. They don't actually care, and are feigning outrage to increase their bargaining position for US $ and military obligation to the worthless Karzai regime.
Am I somehow a superior human than the Afghans because I was born in the US and benefited from civilization? No. However, I'm unable to reconcile with the fact that I have no respect for men who rape boys, don't respect the rights or humanity of females, are cowardly in the face of danger, and are bizarrely religious and hypocritical to top it all off...
Well said. It's amazing to me the number of people whose comments are sympathetic to the enemy, and make no mistake, they are the enemy, and will be for the foreseeable future. Some of you people that think not should go make friends with them in person. See how that works out for ya.
As far as respecting the dead enemies, ever since the camera was invented there have been photos of dead soldiers. A friend of mine carried a photo of a dead vietcong in his wallet. "that's the son of a bitch that shot me". I'm guessing he probably pissed on him too. I would have. I think the problem is that the younger set videos everything in their life now without thinking...it's ingrained. The military establishment and hierarchy have to get their panties in a wad....they're under scutiny.
Hey "Relax" you Sir are superior to them! Period!
Everyone on this post that is objecting to this action should chill out. Don't beat up on Grandpa, he probably did serve and is not responding to the idiotic comments that were directed at him.
War is Hell and Men are not perfect. This was an error in judgement, they should not be persecuted and the US Gov needs to have their backs, which never happens with this bunch. Feigning outrage and secretly smiling while the military continues to take all of the heat.
POTUS should get it off the front page, say we will deal with it and silence the nut cases that think this is a crime.
Hey guys in uniform.......shut off the cameras and do what we want you to do......Kill people and Break things! Good Luck to all in conflict!
Who cares if they pissed on the dead? We recruit young people, give them uniforms, train them to kill, give them weapons, and send them to a hostile land. Then we are outraged when they pee on the dead bodies??? Come on, what about all of the crap the enemy pulls? IEDs, car bombs, suicide bombers, videos of them killing our people, etc...
War should have no rules. That's what makes it so horrible.
This is much ado over nothing and still one more example of our fear of insulting Muslims, the same ones that won't think twice about beheading (or worse) a captured soldier. This is nothing compared to Viet Nam where some marines wore necklaces made up of enemy body parts.
The fact is that it is human nature to abhor the killing of another human so to build an effective combat force it becomes necessary to dehumanize and build contempt for the enemy to get your military to readily kill in combat. Knowing that these dead Taliban probably had a hand in the deaths of fellow marines only fueled this contempt. Such is the nature of war.
Unless you have been in combat, and have watched your buddies got killed, you will never understand how the mind reacts. Not sure what motivated these Marines to do something so stupid and video the event. However, there is no excuse to post it on youtube as they had time to look back and come to realize that it is plain stupid to exhibit evidence of wrong doing, which can be used to prosecute you with. I do not feel sorry to these Marines; they should have destroyed the video. Mistakes happen, but they had time to look back and should know better and destroy evidence.
I am not saying that this is right, but for real they are already dead, so it is not like it hurt them. Now with that said, I am quite sure that this is not the first time that this has happened, it is just the first time that some dumb#$% posted it on the internet. And besides, this is war.Why are we still fighting in someone elses country anyway, when we have so many problems going on in our own country that can't seem to be resolved. Hell I work in a homeless shelter, talk about being pissed on.
t
This isn't the Peace Corp. People in our good ol US are so self-centered that they generally have no idea of what is truly happening beyond their own little slice of reality. War is Hell, and if you think men and women fighting for their lives on a daily basis should follow all of these man-made rules of war, then you go do it. Reminds me of the revolution when the brits had all of these rules of engagement and the minutemen kicked their asses back to Great Britain. Rules of war are fool rules made by foolish people.
And I am proudly retired from the service. Why put marine's on trial for doing your dirty work for you? The critical ones could not handle the job, but sure can tell us how to do it. What a joke.
Why we expect respectful social behavior from our soldiers after psyching them up so they are able to kill without conscience is beyond belief. Virtually all of a soldier's training is to make them numb to the unthinkable... to denigrate and demonize the enemy to assure no hesitation in the battlefield. We then send them into horrible conditions to face daily death and destruction...
Then they piss on the dead enemy and we are surprised. WE are the ignorant, not them.
Bring them home.
This is my opinion and since I am an American and have the right to express it I will. I think what these boys did was very disrepectful. Not only did the embarrass themselves, but they disrespected their country and their fellow military family. Shame on them for stooping to such a level. I don't buy the whole extreme war reasoning. MANY others have been in the same situations and they didn't whip out their part and disrespect their uniform that way. Regardless WHO they pissed on, they still showed complete stupidity. When you decide and choose to put on that uniform, you are held to a higher standard and expected to represent this country in a certain manner. My brother served 3 tours over there and saw some pretty gruesome stuff, but not once did he do something so disrespectful. Coming from a LONG line of military, that uniform means something and what they did was wrong.
And, what's worse is the one who POSTED it should be held to the same punishment. If they did it they did it, but why post your crap? These boys are just that, BOYS because any man with any respect wouldn't have done that. I'm ashamed of them. This is not the way to represent this country or any of us.
Chuck Wagon, "Rules of War"??? Are you serious? Are you $%&#@ serious? There are no rules of war! Please name one "civilized" war. Support America and realize that war dehumanizes everyone involved. It always has, down throughout history. IF we are going to send our men and women into combat, let us have the compassion to realize what it does to all of us. These men do not need to be punished - they have been punished just by being in Hell itself.
The problem is that there are lots of Marine's who are in Afghanistan who have to deal with and work with Afghan's to get their jobs done, etc... and this type of very unprofessional behavior makes their jobs more difficult and more dangerous.
What these Marine's did was to disrespect the Marine Corp which is a very professional organization - they are acting no better than a third rate militia when pulling crap like that.
Its easy to talk tough from your desks - why not sign for the Corps and head over to Afghanistan and show us all how its done...
Peeing on an enemy corpse? Oh please!
So I guess my father's USMC unit was completely out of line when they cut the heads off of dead Japanese soldiers and stuck them on sticks along the jungle paths of Saipan in WWII, right?
Oh wait! That was the generation heralded and praised for saving the world from the evil Axis nations. Hummm....
I have no problem with peeing on the dead enemy. I still can feel the pain of the decapitations they did to our people. Those people were alive and begging for their lives...but they were butchered on video. It is the nature of their religious upbringing that makes life of little value to them. Any outrage they show is as phony as the tears we all saw on TV in North Korea.
I do have a problem with these marines making a video and documenting the stupidity. We train them to be killers and as someone else here pointed out...to dehumanize the enemy, making it easier to kill them. We need to do a better job training them to keep what happens in war, in war. Or something like that. Do what you have to to follow orders...but keep your mouth shut and cover your backs.
It is just what the war-mongers in Washington do to cover their asses as they sit in their offices and order our young people to die if necessary to ...do what? Protect us? From what? It is over, bring home the dead. Rebuild OUR country. Repair OUR roads, Protect OUR women, And let our soldiers heal.
We got the body we went for. We killed Osama Bin Ladin. Now bring our boys and girls back home. We went there to get revenge...not build schools, hospitals, and bring a new religion to these people. Give them back their country and let them choose their own way to live. If they mistreat their woman that is their business...let them do as they please.
We should not be in the world domination business, we cannot afford it. We are not able to take care of our own people or protect our own women and children.
While I've been close enough to war to be knocked out of my cot I have never fired on an enemy. That never was nor is it my current job. What that has to do with violating laws of war is beyond me. There are rules out there to protect the nation from the otherwise stupid actions of dumb teenagers and twenty-somethings...and there are plenty of them in the military. I see them and hear the things they say on a daily basis (and that isn't to say there aren't exemplary young men in combat units...there are both). I'll never know battle fatigue and hopefully, barring anything that happens in the next two weeks, I'll likely never have PTSD. Still, the actions of this group of imbeciles, though it may make some proud, puts our nation and the efforts of everyone that already died over here at risk. Like it or not, these jerks, just like the idiots at Abu Ghraib, put the mission...all ten years of it...at risk throught their moral terpitude, which, by extension, becomes ours. They are the face of America over here and now that face has piss all over it. If you don't see a problem with that then you really don't care about the soldiers and Marines that have died here already.
And as for the argument that their behavior is nothing compared to what the enemy would do, I ask, should we be more like the Taliban or Al-Qaida? Is that who we should be looking to as an example? People are so up in arms about Sharia Law and Islamic this and Islamic that. If what they do is so horrific to you, why would you want to stoop to their level and emulate their barbaric behavior? Even the civilians here bury Taliban dead out of respect for their own religion. If you think for a second that desecrating dead Taliban muslims isn't seen as a serious disrespect to their religion, and that Afghanis don't care if we do such things, then you really don't understand what we're fighting for over here. We pee on one dead muslim and we pee on all of them. That doesn't win hearts and minds and certainly isn't any fundamental concept of counter insurgency operations.
I'm sorry, but being under stress does not warrant checking your morals and honor at the curb. These "men" disgraced themselves and everyone who has served honorably in a combat zone with their wrongful urination (Art. 134 of the UCMJ should be applied), and far worse, will provide "justification" in the minds of Afghan and Pakistani Muslims on the fence to wage Jihad !! Not cool.
These young men have been fighting a relentless war in a foreign country on a daily basis. One cannot imagine the untold horrors they are or have been exposed to. While the behavior depicted here is out of character for the majority of our military men, it is difficult to determine if any of us can rush to judgement since we have not been in their shoes. I may not condone their action here but I cannot forget the beheadings of Americans and others by insurgents from various parts of the Middle East either. We are at war and many of these "men" are barely out of their teens. They likely will suffer the effects of this war for the rest of their lives as it is. Outrage? I feel it every time I think of the Twin Towers and Daniel Pearl, not to mention all of the young men and women who have served in that hell-hole up to 4 times if not more. And I feel it for all of those who came back maimed and/or blinded, or in a coffin, or who didn't come back at all. Reprimand? OK . . . but prison? That punishment sounds far too harsh for the offense.
Here we go again.
First, this is a VOLUNTEER army. These people VOLUNTEERED to invade another country and kill its civilians. If some of those citizens fight back, that really should not surprise even people who are stupid or evil enough to have volunteered.
Second, the people who attacked the United States on 911 were mostly Saudi Arabians. You know... the country President Bush visited afterward to thank them personally while kissing and holding hands with their Crown Prince. Led by bin Laden. You know, that son of the Saudi family President Bush used taxpayer dollars to give safe passage to the day after 911.
jerri-1
They volunteer to server their country. The elected officials decided to go to war sir.
As for the rest of your ramblings.
Do you have any proof? Links? Or just more wild rants?
Are you kidding me? You need LINKS?
Where were you when it was happening -- in a playpen? It was only a decade ago, for crying out loud.
Look it up yourself. Jeeze, it was all over the news. People around the world were looking at the pictures and laughing at us.
Rockyroad....here's a link for you:
http://www.hermes-press.com/BushSaud.htm
We should court marshal the dicks and the bushes for starting wars for private economic reasons based on lies. That would be money well spent. The only reason our military was made volunteer is so that politico and elite children do not have to spill their blood. Instead, they make the military a volunteer one so that only the economically challenged get to serve.
When young, one does not consider the after effects. When old, all we have are our memories to relive. It is not that they likely will suffer. It is a given. The dead, the ones killed, will play like a video in front of their eyes, everyday for the rest of their lives. There is a reason the 10 promises (ten commandments) have been written by those who have gone before us. Do not kill is not really a commandment but a promise. Do it and be scarred and suffer for the rest of your life. The anger, the hatred, it takes to piss on someone's dead body is truly disturbing. These men need psychiatric help before being released into society.
We have invaded countries that have not attacked the US. Our military should NEVER be exported but should remain home to guard the homeland. Our politicians utilize the military to advance economic entitlements and nothing else.
And you wonder why the world in general - not just the arab or muslim world - is losing respect for us as a nation. Yes it is for buffoonery such as the acts of these Marines. But more so for the support of even more Buffoons back home who have no problem with it. We are there as a professional military force to do a job. That job does not include desecration of corpses, which by the way, is a felony here in the USA.
By the way - yes I am Muslim. No I am not Arab. I was born in the USA. And I am an inactive Marine myself. So before you say I don't understand - yeah - I do. All sides. Do you?
to Khalid Arizona, you volunteered to enlist in the Marine. Why? If you have anti sentiment against the USA. Arab or Muslims are all the same culture due to their belief in Islam. You may be born in the USA but you still anti USA. That is why it is hard for us to feel safe around Muslims. We never know when a Muslim decides to blow him/herself up. They even blow up their own kind.
One cannot compare the same issue that happened in a combat zone and in peace time zone.
This is nothing, while the act of peeing on people who tried to kill you shouldn't be condoned.. I don't think this act should be highly reprimanded for it. This is basically teabagging the enemy who tried to kill you. Our soldiers don't take live talibans and hack their heads off with machetti's do they? Screw them and if the worst thing they do is pee on the enemy.. reprimand those responsible and the Squad/Platoon leader as well cause where was he when his men were doing this?
However I do have to agree... if ur dumb enough to take video and pictures and post it online your an idiot.
On the Marines actions of urinating on enemy dead bodies no big deal except to the News. They are not Muslems or solders of a recognized country, they are power hungry child killing terriost. Since they use the Moslem Brotherhood as a front for their uncivilized actions they offend all true Moslems.
Let this start a new era where they are disgraced in death by removing their heads and placing the heads face down at the feet of their innocent victims graves. Let the Moslem Brotherhood rise up and demand that these animals not be allowed to the enter the hereafter as heroes, but as shamed villians. Take a note from history and make there deaths as terroist a feared disgrace not a heroic act to their supporters.
Sorry LTK. But the only one reading anti US sentiments into this is YOU! I am white, Christian and Jewish. You may not speak for all of us. I certainly do not fear Muslims. Khalid was speaking of respect and you bring into the conversation anti US sentiments. Hatred, bigots, bias, and fear are what these 'marines' did to the dead and what you are spouting out.
Murder is murder no matter how you try to justify it away. Desecrating dead bodies is a sign of mental illness.
Your bias and fear (hatred) are showing even as this person bears his military past and service to a country he was born in for all to see. All you can do is shut the door. Good doing.
Peter Jacobs, how are you Christian and Jewish? They are totally different faiths (one believes that Jesus Christ was the Savior and one doesn't), it is technically impossible to be of both faiths.
And speaking as the sister of 3 brothers that have served/are serving -unless you have stood in their shoes you cannot cast the first stone (like my Old Testament reference there?). One of my brothers has been home for almost 2 years and struggles daily with PTSD and personal guilt of what he was forced to do to protect his brothers at arms. So yes, peeing on dead Taliban/enemy troops is inhumane and disrespectful, but that's exactly what the Taliban are!! They brutally kill any POWs and continuously abuse the civil rights of their own women and children. You want something to get enraged over- get enraged over their treatment of women, because that is what is truly appalling.
Stuck at Work,
There are many Jews for Jesus. Look it up. Nobody is casting the first stone. You are reading YOUR bias into my affirmation. Believe it or not, if the shoe does not fit you don't have to wear it. Another way to look at our conversation is to remove yourself as a point of reference (or bias).
You have family members serving, I have family members serving and Khalid also served the US. It is difficult to believe that someone can be forced to kill another human being. Nobody forced anyone to pick up a pen and sign on the dotted line. Yes, PTSD is VERY real so is invading countries and killing people. The results of which is the human tragedy called guilt. From a personal level, PTSD, all the way to our National Group Conscience. You may agree or not, it is your choice, DO NOT KILL.
Okay, bias aside, the other points that were spoken should alone make someone think hmm somthing is wrong over there. If you are a Jew that is a Christian then you are... guess what? A Christian! A Christian who is supposed to love others but is not blind to injustice. Those Marines are going to get what is coming to them. There is something called the Law of War and they will pay the price for what they did. But they are facing people day after day that do not follow these rules of war. It is easy to think of the Taliban as the under dogs and being pushed around. All Muslims are not the same just as all Christians are not the same, as we are finding out, but that is where humanity's faults lie. All people do things differently. The ones that do not follow the path of right, not just by Christian standards but by societies, pay the price.
If you want to remove bias from arguements then just put yourself into the shoes of anyone who has served there. You go tell them to their faces that there is no one that can make them kill. Tell them that when you hear the bullets whining through the air over your head. Or when someone is on top of you with a knife above your head ready to plunge it into your heart just out of hate. See if your survival instinct does not kick in and say it is either me or him. You are right about no one has to make you kill anyone. But when someone tries to kill you it is a good idea to not just let it happen. The dotted line is not something everyone has to sign. But the ones that do, have taken a step that most people don't have the ability or the guts to. So before you hate those men that desecrated those bodies at least pity them. Pity them that they have been scarred that badly by the things they have seen. Which you have to be honest you cannot even imagine. You may see video and photos or news reports but until you have all those biochemicals and senses working against you, you have not a clue. So do your Christian duty and pity and love those who have wronged another but also show them they are wrong.
Oh and the original translation of the commandment is "thou shall not commit murder." If you knew enough about your religion then you would know that there are tons of wars fought over the Promise Land in the Old Testament. Sorry to disappoint.
Are you KIDDING me? Marines urinating on vanquished enemies ready to do the same to them or WORSE??? If I was still in the service I would have wrapped the B a s t a r d s in bacon, beat their faces to an unrecognizable pulp with a shoe so their virgins wouldn't even touch them, THEN urinate on them.
I see marines STANDING TALL in that obscured photograph. SEMPER FI, MARINES!!!
(To all of you candy-a$$ed liberals out there, go enlist, serve 3 tours of duty in these hellish sewers, THEN come back to complain about what I posted!)
Muslims are not allowed to eat pork, but they could touch it. The scum marines went out of their way, invaded a country, raped their women and killed their people before urinating on them.
The afghani people are just fight a foreign occupation.
If a foreign army invades the US, i would expect you to fight the foreign occupation, assuming you're not a chickenhawk.
"Many people in this country that worry far more about public relations and how we are perceived by the rest of the world are shocked at Marines urinating on Taliban," retired Army Sgt. Maj. Herb Freidman, an author and authority on psychological operations, told msnbc.com. "Why? They are murderers and terrorists that think nothing of blowing up soldiers, civilians, women and children. What have they done to deserve our respect? There are Marines being killed and maimed on a daily basis by these people. They are flying in from Muslim countries all over the world to get their crack at martyrdom. If some Marine that fought them in battle fair and square feels that he has the right to urinate on a defeated enemy, what is the problem? Hell, it could be worse.... It is a fight to the death, not some sort of gentlemanly duel with seconds and everyone very politely drinking a fine wine afterwards."- I think it says it all right there. To expect soldiers to act like stoic philosophers lost in apathy is obtuse, moronic, and detached from the reality of the situation. Any bleeding heart liberal hippy throwbacks can put a sock in it.
Semper Fi Brother
Let God sort em out
Are these the good, strong, moral Christian values that the bible teaches? How many of these soldiers consider themselves Christians, yet act like this? I just would be curious to know what they profess their value system to actually be.
Grandpa the difference is you been there and know what it is like while these other are remf lol
Grandpa I'm sure you were a bad ass Soldier boy when you were in. Give it a Rest three hellish tours let's see provided they were 16 mo. tours that's 48K in combat pay and I'm so sure you were dodging bullets that whole time. More then likely in the rear watching football on the 80in Plasma or playing PS2 I work with soldiers all day and I hear the REAL stories. Don't try to make your self out to be some sort of hero. I don't need no army to go to a foreign country to keep me free. I doubt if anytime soon I will see an insurgent on my doorstep. Even if I did I would shoot him, So don't expect me to kiss any soldiers azz as far as I'm concerned i was free before 9/11 and will be free until I die don't need no hero's to help me.
The problem is that this isn't anti-Taliban. Which it might or might not be. No one cares. What the problem is that this is anti-American. As is mentioned in the article, several rules were violated. There's a reason why there are rules, and in the army, if you aren't capable of following them, you are risking not just your life, but the lives of your fellow soldiers as well.
Now, there are several people on this board who want to kill every single Afghani in the world.
But for the rest of us, we prefer just to get the Taliban. Most of Afghanistan isn't fighting us. Can we please not start fights with all of them? I am tired of spending trillions of dollars antagonizing people.
Ranknfile you are a moron. I thank every soldier I meet for their service to our country. The military doesn't start wars, they go where Washington orders them. Before you go off with your rant, perhaps you should take some grammar lessons.
We have all of this outrage over soldiers peeing on dead bodies. I think it's misplaced, we should have outrage over the way our country is being run.
(-: bravo bravo....justice served
aww man sad so many stories almost daily marines..soldierss too much going on..but id still like to volunteer to help those that have been injured anyone know where i can volunteer without having to b military> let me know.
wanna b a teacher,
Contact your local USO, I'm certain they can provide you with an avenue of opportunity to help our warriors. Thanks for your interest in this worthwhile endeavor!
You can also look into online organizations. For instance adoptaussoldier.org sets you up on a pen pal basis to be a friend or remembrance of home to those over seas.
Is this a War or what?? Bunch of whining pussies !! These guys did what they had to do. Quit bitching. If you people love these ...... then you go join them and eat camel dung.
"did what they had to do", unknown1? Yes, I am sure they had to desecrate corpses....very important and necessary to the war effort.
Can't believe this is really an issue. Too bad they were stupid enough to film it though.
And yet, they ARE incredibly stupid, aren't they?
You just can't argue with that.
jerri-1:
Did you see the video where those terrorist that you seem to admire were cutting the head off of a reporter?
If you have never been in combat, trying to put it into mere words what it is like would not do it justice.
Those soldiers can do 20 things right a day for 9 months, yet the one time they do make a poos judgement decision they get crucified in the American papers. Does that seem right?
as far as i'm concern Thoses rotten SOB got what they deserved...DEATH! you attack us & you dont think we're not gonna retaliate!?!...ARE YOU INSANE!?!...Should've @!$%#ted down their necks too! I know I Probably would've done it!..& burn the Koran too!
No Afghans were in the group who attacked the US on September 11, rosebud. And we invaded their country.
Okay rosebud, so your point is that if we invade a country and murder its civilians, and they have the nerve to fight for their lives, that gives us the right to do any atrocity that occurs to us.
If you don't like what's going on, I suggest that you pick up a weapon and defend your own principles. As for the marines urinating on the corpses, have you ever stop to think that maybe they stopped for a leak and the enemy killed themselves, then fell down in front of them? I am definitely in agreement with SGM/CSM Friedman on this issue.
What's worse is that the politicians/others are secretly giving out high-fives while condemning this act. And, for those who fought in VietNam, we should be so luckly that we didn't have the media devices that are available today...we'd be hated a lot more than we were coming home.
Bottom line, freedom is not for the weak or timid. If you don't like it, pack up and move out.
Rosebud....Osama Bin Laden his dead, most of his commanders are dead, and the most of the hijackers who killed thousands of Americans were actually Saudi (and they're dead too)...we have no reason to be there anymore.
And you are an id— — t...I served in the Navy for 14 years alongside shipmates who were of the Muslim faith, I would never think of burning their holy text....get over yourself.
Really, sad to see what our soldiers have become. Dosen't the marine commercial and ads say "the few,the proud" so really what is there to be proud of out of this? Nothing really. Can say the marines are the best but when they stoop down to the same level as the enemy then shows they are just the same as the enemy really. Can say "they would do the same to us" or "because the horrors they go through" but just cause someone dose something dose not mean you have to do the same. Also the horrors are not much really from what i read and seen. The war is afghan and iraq are not for sake of defeating terrorists,it is for better appearance so we can get better deals on oil. Stand by what i said that marines are not the best if they are willing to stoop down to the same level as the enemy,it is sad and pathetic.
As a former soldier, I'm disgusted to see this - and if another soldier witnesses any atrocities it is their duty to report it. We cannot "establish democracy and human rights" in an area while deeply insulting the people there. And I believe we've seen that we can't "establish democracy" there in the last decade - and this story happens to show a true degradation in human rights.
I'm as equally insulted by many ignorant, slanderous comments attached to this story. The US citizens that condone this kind of behavior show nothing for my service but increased hatred, a violent bias, and a true enemy to the US Constitution in yourselves. I, as a former soldier, would not want to be urinated on - dead or alive, waterboarded, or held indefinitely without trial. And I would really appreciate only being sent in to fight a known enemy in battlefield operations. Sending troops to walk through a citywide ambush daily, or even having them drive patrols in unarmored Humvees is pure torture in and of itself.
These soldiers should be commended for their service to the United States of America, and incarcerated while being treated for PTSD and ANY OTHER PSYCHOLOGICAL ISSUES THEY HAVE. These people are not well, and they are most likely severely mentally troubled from the horrors their orders have put them through. I do not feel these actions reflect the true people they are, and are the result of severe trauma and exposure to tremendously stressful duty.
Hwy...I am so sorry that this has besmirched the reputation of an armed force that you served so well.
Thank you, Sir, for fighting for my right to speak my mind, and to enjoy the freedoms that I have. I promise to use them to my best ability.
Well said sir.
Oh quit being such a bitch dude, those dead f'ers deserve everything they got and more. Do you think if they killed your Marine brothers they would be respectful and return the bodies and equipment to the USMC with apologies that their soldiers were killed?
I have had three son's and a nephew serve in Iraq and Afgahanstan, one son and my nephew were both killed in action and another son was severely injured and recovering. If one of these men were my son's I'd be very disappointed, doing your duty during combat is one thing, but urinating on dead bodies is disguisting and wrong. War isn't pretty, but this is above and beyond the values I would hope our military personal should have!
At least they didn't hang them off a bridge, drag their bodies around the streets, or slit their throats on TV or video!
Two wrongs don't make it right!
Are we still in 1st grade? Things happen, it's called life. Deal with it.
Error of double post.
hypilot.. I had a bunch typed but i got hijacked by the "newer" banner on here and lost it all.. want to hear it anyway ??
Don't you hate that "older" "newer"crap? What a pain in the butt. How long do we have to put up with it?
I have never been in combat. I of course am disappointed about this behavior, but I just can't judge on this. My real disappointment is who thought it would be a good idea to immortalize this? Our people should e smarter than to take pictures of this stuff. I have not forgotten the footage of our people being drug down the public streets. So I just can't be too terribly upset about this. I think it will make things difficult for our government down the road, but it is what it is. Our soldiers lives are made difficult by our government on a regular basis. I feel bad for the soldiers involved. Their lives are all tainted if not ruined by this.
bring it on unknown - we still have freedom of speech (checking to make sure)
A temporary condition...our lawmakers are working on taking the few freedoms we have left away.
This is so disgusting...that soldiers of The United States would do something like this.
It does, however, seem to be the way this country is going, all down the line. Conservatives hate libs...Dems hate Republicans...kids hate other kids.
It's getting very nasty. I fear for the direction that we are headed.
I was in Nam when I was 18 and drank beer out of a Dead VC,s skull. SEMPER FI ! Piss on a couple for me! SGT D.S. Mears 2487106 ,0311,2511,2813,Vietnam JAN 69-70. For Those who don,t understand is it,s called PAYBACK BITCH!
Yeah, I commend these soldiers for pissing on the dead Taliban warriors. Those offended should get off their judgmental high horse, walk a few miles in the shoes of our brave men and women soldiers, and then decide what is acceptable or not. I would love to be over there pissing on dead Taliban, if there were a sign up I'd be first in line, because that is actually some seriously funny @!$%#.
You brought up a good point xray, and let me explain:
The minimum service age, in my opinion, should be higher - possibly 21.
After my time in service, I had far too many problems with those barely an adult when they signed the contract. A couple of my barely 18 year old squadmembers decided they were in love with the same South Korean prostitute. And they nearly killed each other once, I worried about issuing them weapons.
Our military needs alot of updating to where we are today, and we need to take a good, hard look at what we're doing to our troops - those that signed to defend us. And give them what they need to do their jobs, even if it's just more maturity and stability of mind.
Go after them obama lovers! Gurantee he will lose votes on that game.
I am distressed the lives and safety of our brave servicemen/women have been reduced to a political game.
When Afghan call for these guys to be punished their punishment should be to be send back to the states.They want us out ,these four first.Then if you really don't want to be there anymore you have an out.It's better than shooting yourself in the foot.Taliban can liberate their country by getting shot and pea'd on a noble sacrific worthy of a couple of extra virgins Hell I'll donate a couple from my stache of imaginary dead virgins.Hell I think I've had nothing but imaginary virgins myself,not the dead ones that would be wrong.
OK, bad taste and should not be told to the outside, but war is war. Nothing nice about it. Get used to it nice folks of the world. Next up- Iran is doing who-knows-what with nukes. N. Korea is now rules by a kid with wicked thoughts of the righteous world. Julio Chavez?, Fidel's coup de gras? Insurgents are streaming into Afghanistan/Pakistan to join the fight, just like Iraq. Right where we want them too. These Devil Dogs will take one for the team. That whole 3rdBn,2ndMarine chain of command as well. Yet America want's us to be the ruthless tip of the spear too?
who knows, karma and all..maybe someone will defecate on your face when you're dead...
Too bad I wasn't there. I would have laid a deuce on them too! Go Marines!!
You have to blame it on something , I guess....
This is a situation where these guys got caught up in the moment, perhaps after a hard mission, a combat loss, an this was closure you know" piss on em!" I don't agree with the behavior because this is a serious break in discipline. I would re-think our combat troops abilities to film and report these actions and behaviors to the social media outlets though, because all most every incident from Guantanomo to now how been the result of poor decision making of soldier who have actually filmed their crimes. I was in Iraq, and you can see the effect that combat has on soldier and civilian a like. Trust me this is not as serious as some of the stories you heard but didn't see.It is bad timing though, who would gain from post this video now?
It is disgusting and utterly shameful to see how convenient it is for us to blame the atrocities shown in the video on stress and other factors; and much worse showing all the hate and supporting the act. And you call yourself civilized ! This very thought that life of a fellow American is much over valued over that of, say, an Afghan is a sign of monster breeding within. As far as I am concerned you are no less Taliban to me and you know why - because given an opportunity you would act just like them whatever the motive maybe (their fanatic beliefs and your justification for this act is equally unacceptable to me). And the last time I checked it was the very difference in beliefs and values that we were on war. Sadly enough we seem to converge on that.
And to tell you the harsh truth most of us really do not know the ground realities. The comments here show how the public opinion is manipulated at the hands of few in power and the media. Only a few days back there was a news about a tortured Afghan girl and how quickly we concluded that being a ghastly act of Islamic fanaticism. Have we all lost our sense of objectivity? Any person with a sound logic can easily tell that it was an act driven by poverty and had little to do with religion. Have you not heard of something like this happening in our country?? But we all blamed it to Islam and its ways. How convenient that is huh? This is exactly what is called "Manufacturing Consent". How obsessed are we with Afghanistan, Middle East?
Now how convenient would it be to call me a Liberal or for that matter a Muslim or a pro Taliban? Some of you even might. But the truth is I still have a bit of humanity left in me. For God's sake we have a civilization. We are not them.
sure you did Grandpa, sure you did.....what asylum are you in now...Like I said, combat vets don't talk like you.
No asylum, Flag Waver. I'm one of the VERY VERY lucky ones who was able to moderately recover from wounds received in the south east Asia theater in 1971. I was lucky in that I was only crippled severely from a round from an AK that struck me in the lower back when I was actually NOT in one of my 3 firefights I experienced. I am at home fairly comfortable with a loving wife and 3 cats.
I slept on your comments. YOU definitely have the right to your opinion, as I am to mine. Yes, I am a conservative republican these days, young one. But I did NOT start out one. I was a free-wheeling long-haired hippie back in the 60's when the call of the Army bit me. I realized that I was going nowhere in life sitting on California streets banging a tambourine asking for spare change, so I grew up and joined up.
I have every right to be bitter and hate the military machine as it seems you do nowadays, but I am not in the least after MANY MANY days in the hospital, winding up on the list today at the Sepulveda VA as one of the more successful patients. You can find me there some days rolling around in a red mobility scooter. I usually wear an old JPL (Jet Propulsion Laboratories) baseball cap and a Tommy's Original T-shirt with hot rods on it. If you're in the neighborhood, stop on by and talk with me and the guys and gals there. I'm sure they'd all love to meet you and discuss this issue you seem to have with military veterans.
I COULD spit venomous diatribes at you but I will not. With my declarations of respect for men and women who put their lives on the line every day in adverse conditions to say the least, I, after a cooling-off period and a bit of thought, have to respect everyone's opinion whether I know them or not. I simply disagree with you. I also respect the poor enlisted man who, by swearing an oath to our (I'm at least hoping you're American) country and military commanders, is literally at times put forth as cannon-fodder or put into what some might be considered a meat grinder scenario, either to emerge as a victor or victim. I for some reason prefer to be in the former as these jarheads were.
Was it necessary to urinate on the enemy as we see by this photo? I must say no. Was it wise to do so? Again, after a night of thinking about it... I have to say no again. Do I understand WHY they did it? To that question I have to say yes, as I sincerely hope that YOU do not... or, by the grace of GOD, will never have to.
As an afterthought... I can't help but wonder just where that hippie chick is today that welcomed me home when I was being wheeled through the Greyhound station in downtown L.A. in uniform by spitting on me and calling me a whore warmonger. Nice homecoming. I'm glad the men and women coming home today are being hailed as heroes instead of the way that woman welcomed ME home. OH, sorry for my respect for our troops. (NOT!!!)
My name is Dave. Have a nice day.
Northridge, Ca.
get over it grandpa...I see many people at the VA when I go for treatment...mind you I am 100%er as we call it. Many guys show up there that never saw action but talk a big talk and want free care. Come on with the spitting incident...that is so overblown, we all know that. Any man who truly saw the evil of combat and make it home, tend to be very humble and definitly not so gung ho. They know the evils of war and tend not to want it repeated. Combat vets are a different breed, no one else but my brothers know what we have been through. It is very hard to read these posts from conservatives who were for the war in Nam but found so many reasons not to go to combat. I have no time for them. I have more respect for the objectors and the ones that went to Canada. They gave up alot to have a conscience. The others played the part of cowards. Need I have to name a few? gwbush, cheney, Limbaugh, Romney, Gingrich etc etc
Semper Fi 3/5 kilo
flag waver what are you talking about? You don't seem to know know anything about what the Vietnam vets suffered or have suffered! You say you are a 100% disabled vet from which war? You claim to be a Marine! Are you a Marine?
The way Vietnam veterans were treated is a disgrace! It is not overblown they were alienated and shunned by the government, family, friends, and many ended up homeless! Some combat veterans are humble, some still gung-ho, some are numb and silent! My grandfather fought in WWII, and my dad in Vietnam! They both became disabled as a result of combat! My Dad had PTSD and ended up with cancer probably from agent orange exposure etc. I have also met other Vietnam Combat Vets while I served in the military! Believe it or not some said Vietnam was the best time of their life! Obviously everyone has a different outlook because everyone has a different breaking point!
Do you remember Lt. Calley and the My Lai massacre? They pointed to Calley, a young, unemployed college dropout, as an example of the raw and inexperienced recruits being rushed through officer training. Others pointed out problems with the military's insistence on unconditional obedience to orders while at the same time limiting the doctrine of "command responsibility" to the lowest ranks. Others saw Mỹ Lai and related war crimes as a direct result of the military's attrition strategy, with its emphasis on "body counts" and "kill ratios". The fact that the massacre was successfully covered up for 18 months was seen as a prime example of the Pentagon's "Culture of Concealment"[47] and of the lack of integrity that permeated the Defense establishment. South Korean Vietnam Expeditionary Forces Commanding Officer General Chae Myung Shin remarked, "Calley tried to get revenge for the deaths of his troops. In a war, this is natural."[48]
Another consensus also gradually emerged. At first, rather than giving
returning veterans of the war welcoming parades, Americans seemed to shun, if
not denigrate, the 2 million-plus Americans who went to Vietnam, the 1.6 million
who served in combat, the 300,000 physically wounded, the many more who bore
psychological scars, the 2,387 listed as "missing in action," and the more than
58,000 who died. Virtually nothing was done to aid veterans and their loved ones
who needed assistance in adjusting. Then a torrent of fiction, films, and
television programs depicted Vietnam vets as drug-crazed psychotic killers, as
vicious executioners in Vietnam and equally vicious menaces at home. Not until
after the 1982 dedication of the Vietnam Veterans Memorial in Washington, D.C.,
did American culture acknowledge their sacrifice and suffering, and concede that
most had been good soldiers in a bad war.
Yet this altered view of the Vietnam veterans as victims as much as
victimizers, if not as brave heroes, was not accompanied by new public policies.
Although most veterans did succeed in making the transition to ordinary civilian
life, many did not. More Vietnam veterans committed suicide after the war than
had died in it. Even more--perhaps three-quarters of a million--became part of
the lost army of the homeless. And the nearly 700,000 draftees, many of them
poor, badly educated, and nonwhite, who had received less than honorable
discharges, depriving them of educational and medical benefits, found it
especially difficult to get and keep jobs, to maintain family relationships, and
to stay out of jail. Although a majority of Americans came to view dysfunctional
veterans as needing support and medical attention rather than moral
condemnation, the Veterans Administration, reluctant to admit the special
difficulties faced by these veterans and their need for additional benefits,
first denied the harm done by chemicals like Agent Orange and by the
post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) afflicting as many as 700,000, and then
stalled on providing treatment.
What these Marines have done is nothing! They pissed on the enemy! I have no respect for the draft dodgers who turned their backs and ran like cowards to Canada! Good riddance! They gave up nothing! They lived while others died! They lived quite well in Canada while true Americans fought and died in the jungle! There were also Canadians who joined the US military to fight in the Vietnam war! They deserve our respect not the deserters or draft dodgers!
Celtic (of which I am one of) I lived the history...more pissed off at the VFW who didn't want us around and Reagan who sold us down the river with the Agent Orange............and you speak of the guys that took off and went to Canada, as I said what about the ones who were for the war but to cowardly to go into combat? We know who they are and the top of the heap is gwbush, cheney an their ilk. What years and where was you father in nam? You are so right about good soldiers in a bad war. I learned after for years to resent the war. Like most I was gung ho 21 year old and joined the marines with my 1st cousin who was killed there. Blamed myself for years because he wanted to go to the air force and I saw no way, we are going to go "all in" we are going to be marines. I was 3/5 kilo he was lima. YOu just have to look at "the wall" and casualities by service to know we should of went AF or navy. He grabbed me and said I am not going to make it home and I shook him and said "you can't talk like that wtf are you thinking, we will be home for Christmas". He was a scout and was killed that fall. I saw his face and still see his face in the casket each night. I was not allowed to return home with the body of course. I never saw him again after that day. However the dreams still returns.
I know more then most how we were treated. Thank God for the vets in NYC who fought for more VA care for all of us. You might want to read up on them. The last ten years I have got many of my fellow brothers signed up for VA care. Around 2005 I was at a VA hospital and the sign read "welcome home Iraqi and AFgan vets, you can use this facility for 2 years. I went to the DAV and told them about the sign. Here our Gov't was sending soldiers again to an useless war with not body protection and humvess that we know were going to get them killed (how come the pentagon and rumpsfeld didn't know?) and then going to do the same thing we went through coming from Nam, just throw-aways.Then the scandal of walter reed happened and it opened up the f==king americans eyes who where all for the war and had their bumper stickers "we support the troops" but didn't want to pay for them when they came home.
I don't need your preaching celtic, been there done that. I have my views and have learned over the years the f==king conservatives want war but don't want to serve or pay for it. It all falls on the rest of us. My family has paid dearly for this country. Having said that I don't want any of them in these wars.
don't ever speak to me about the spitting incidents. I was in pendleton, I lived in los angeles. The drugged out people anywhere would be ignorant. The average person wasn't like this. Like anything it got blown out of proportion. you weren't there i was.
BTW CELTIC ARE YOU A TROLL ON HERE WITH YOUR VIEWS?...WE SEE THIS ALL THE TIME THE ONE MONTH WONDERS WHO SIGN UP AND POST AND LEAVE. i WILL BE CHECKING ON AND OFF TO SEE IF YOUR STILL AROUND.