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http://youtu.be/8UAj4Ohsce4
Screen grab from youtube video showing the arrest of Occupy LA activist Sergio Ballesteros on Thursday, Jan. 12. Ballesteros, 30, was released on $50,000 bail early Tuesday. He is charged with "lynching"--a felony charge originally drafted to deal with vigilante mobs.
Sergio Ballesteros, 30, has been involved in Occupy LA since the movement had its California launch in October. But this week, his activism took an abrupt turn when he was arrested on a felony charge — lynching.
Under the California penal code, lynching is “taking by means of a riot of any person from the lawful custody of any peace officer," where "riot" is defined as two or more people threatening violence or disturbing the peace. The original purpose of the legal code section 405(a) was to protect defendants in police custody from vigilante mobs — especially black defendants from racist groups.
Whether the police allegation in this case will be pursued by by California’s courts is uncertain. But the felony charge — which carries a potential four-year prison sentence — is the kind of accusation that can change the landscape for would-be demonstrators.
"Felonies really heighten the stakes for the protesters," said Baher Azmy, legal director at Center for Constitutional Rights in New York. "I think in situations where there are mass demonstrations and a confrontation between protesters and police, one always has to be on the lookout for exaggerated interpretations of legal rules that attempt to punish or squelch the protesters."
Ballesteros, a teacher-turned-social-activist, was one of two people arrested during an "art walk" in downtown Los Angeles on Thursday. He and other Occupy LA activists — maybe 200, he said — had joined the procession to bring their message about social injustice to the thousands of gallery-goers.
Adam Alders, a protester who was playing a drum was arrested after stepping off the curb into the street. Ballesteros said that in doing so, the drummer was joining hundreds of other people who could not fit on the crowded sidewalk.
Ballesteros said he was across the street when he saw the arrest — which he said looked excessively rough -- and it was “startling.” Under legal advice, Ballesteros is not providing additional detail, but apparently he objected — in some fashion — to the arrest. A video of the crowded scene posted on YouTube shows Ballesteros on the ground, being handcuffed.
The police report says officers called for backup when Ballesteros pulled Alders out into the crowd, which was "hostile."
A video of the event shows the crowd chanting "let him go!"
He was booked into jail on a felony charge, the Los Angeles Police department confirmed, and released on $50,000 bail early Tuesday morning.
'I can't go out and express myself'
Ballesteros is not the first protester to face this 1933 California law.
Occupy Oakland activist Tiffany Tran, 23, was arrested Dec. 30 and charged with "lynching." At an arraignment four days later, prosecutors opted not to file the charges, the San Francisco Bay Guardian reported. They could change their decision until the one-year statute of limitations expires.
"Now I feel I can’t go out and express myself as I should be able to," Tran told the paper.
In the handful of protest cases in which lynching has been used as a charge in the past, it later has been dropped. However, in one case, a court concluded that “lynching” could include “a person who takes part in a riot leading to his escape from custody."
Many states have laws against lynching — largely drafted to prevent white supremacists and other vigilante groups from using violence against African Americans and white people who supported them. Hundreds of lynchings of this sort took place in the late 1800s through the mid-1900s.
Ballesteros' lawyer said use of this law was perhaps less appealing to the District Attorney than to the police.
Ballesteros is an activist outside the Occupy movement -- building homes through Habitat for Humanity during his spring breaks, aiding at a children's camp for the poorest kids in the Appalachians during the summer, and acting as mentor for disadvantaged kids in the Los Angeles area.
"Whether the District Attorney has the stomach to charge this model young man with a felony is questionable," saidd Mieke ter Poorten, an LA criminal defense attorney who is handling this case pro bono.
Trying to silence?
Ballesteros, who spoke to msnbc.com on Tuesday, said that he does not believe he will be convicted of lynching.
“They don’t have much,” he said of the case against him.
He also faces a misdemeanor charge for his arrest Nov. 30, when he was among more than 200 people who defied eviction from an encampment on the grounds of Los Angeles' City Hall. There was an arraignment for protesters arrested that day, but they were told no charges yet had been filed.
“They have a year to do so,” said Ballesteros. "Now they certainly will. It’s obvious. It’s all political.”
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If they are going to be laying lynching charges against anybody it should be the police.
Yea, because American taxpayers want their streets filled with mangy whiners screaming for freebies. I'd rather have them occupy a prison jumpsuit than my city any day.
@pjam09: until they turn lynching charges on the next big conservative protest. Don't you see how this works man? That's how authoritarian governments are made. These guys pushing these charges are making a power grab.
I thought conservatives actually liked the Bill of Rights? They talk about the constitution all the time, but strangely enough, they never seem to grasp what is actually in it.
They are really stretching it so they can get rid or protesters. I think it's going to be a bit difficult to get the genie back in the bottle. I think it's quiet now, but come the Spring we will see increasing protests--maybe no camping, but surely protests--all the way until the election.
Nevermind the fact that most of them are taxpaying american's as well. At least those lucky enough to still be employed. In which these kinds of protests probably wouldn't be happening if there were still decent paying jobs in this country. Or course that won't happen unless the government removes the tax incentives for exporting jobs... which won't happen as long as those with the money keep contributing massive funds to the coffers of the candidates... one of the issues that the Occupy protesters happen to be protesting about.
Gee, Chris, since an expert on the Bill of Rights, why don't you tell us where it says protestors have the right to deny free access to public property to the rest of us.?
Ok, everyone sing the new GOP national anthem with me:
"It's beginning to look a lot like China..."
His name certainly isn't American i.e. Smith, Jones, Clinton as far as we know he cane in as an illegal
Yes Judge Bill just like Willard Mitt Romney is Mexican right?
I'd talk about how our constitutional rights are being violated in a post here, but I'll probably get arrested for terrorism and never have a trial and be taken to afghanistan for waterboarding or reeducation training.
I don't even understand this. Lynching is when you hang someone with a rope. Why would an Occupy protester be charged with lynching? This is just another example of police trying to defame an intimidate protests--protests which are legal and protected constitutionally. They filed the same kind of trumped up charges against MLK.
Democracy is energized by protest and challenges to a status quo that has become corrupt and exploitative of we the people. If you want a democracy, you have to fight for it. Otherwise, it'll be bought up and transformed into an oligarchy.
@spider: who sez they did? Here in Austin, the OWS protestors don't deny anyone to come and go on the City Hall property.
@pjam09: you're just a f**king loser.
@pjam09: Yup! This is a good thing! Until they come for YOU and charge you with some stupid perversion of an offense...
Please ignore @spider. He's just an ignorant toad. He is not worth comment, His spewing of hate and ignorance caused me to block all of his comments.
I think he feeds on hate. I choose not to feed his hate.
Lame: You're lame. BiranB, we don't have that kind of luck. Blue Burn, you're just ignorant and watch way too much TV
I liked pjams comment about government handouts and arresting OWS protestors. Never mind the fact that our prison systems is one of the biggest cesspools of taxpayer money. Prisoners are taken care of better than a lot of regular Americans.
'lynching?' How on earth is this a case of lynching?
In related news: Apparently, someone tossed a smokebomb over the WH fence during a protest episode in DC. Now, that is just plain stupid. Obama is supposedly on the side of the protesters.
Not what most people think of when they hear the term "Lynching".
I'm sure it will be dropped because the original intent was to protect an arrested person from personal harm, not to free them.
the lynching charge does seem overreaching.
We're becoming a Police state. As the Tsar of Russia instructed his troops to fire on the peasants. The violence is coming from the right...Not the left....yet.
It's called the criminalization of dissent.
The constitution says you are supposed to be able to gather in a group (freedom of assembly) and express your grievances.
But now they are trying to take that right away. The people who own and run the U.S. know they would have a hard or impossible time changing the constitution or Bill of Rights so they are making dissent "illegal" for all practical purposes. Defacto illegal.
Just the same way the recently signed into law, National Defense Authorization Act, removes the protection of the 400 year old civil right of Habeas Corpus (Habeas Corpus from U.S. citizens: They can't imprison you without trial).
It's not a coincidence that corporations have power and influence over the government and society as never before of that wealth inequality is the highest since 1928.
Justice Luis Brandeis:
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both."
"Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power."
Benito Mussolini
It's kind of sad to watch countries around the world fighting to gain their freedom from opression while we loose more of our freedoms everyday.
When I was younger I read Farenheit 451, 1984 and many others great novels that foretold of a time when we would live in a corporate controlled police state, treated like slaves or even worse cattle without even the most basic human rights. When I originally read them I felt that time was off in the distant furture, long after I was dead and gone. But by the mid-eighties I could see ominous clouds on the horizon that made me realize I would have to deal with this in my lifetime. Each year we become more like those works of fiction, each year more laws are made to limit individual liberty while laws governing the actions of corporations are decried as "Unamerican". Many of the laws are designed to pit neighbor against neighbor, setting up future "witchhunt" scenarios where our 'for profit" police force kicks in doors looking for any "unamerican activity", which could be anything the corporate state wants it to mean. And just as with the witch hunts of the 16th century and McCarthyism of the 50's, neighbor will turn on neighbor, thousands of innocent people will be dragged from their homes and arrested on trumped up charges filed by jealous neighbors or ambitious coworkers. This time though it will be permanent, with the rise of the privately owned, for priofit prison system more and more free labor will have to be fed into the machine. Once corporate Amreican gets a taste of true slavery again they will become insatiable with greed and no one will be safe from incarceration.
After losing a six figure income and my home due to the greed of Banks and Politicians, I'm thankful the some have the courage to stand up and say that we have had enough.
Sorry that it is an inconvenience to many of you. Obviously, you still have a house to watch football in, and would rather ignore the situation as long as it doesn’t affect you directly.
Politicians have been bought, and no Bankster will ever be prosecuted for the biggest fleecing in American history. You can blame the system that requires candidates to court the Rich for campaign funds while in office, and for jobs afterwards.
Campaign reform is required if we are to have a government that represents the majority of the people. The choices we are presented with this election will all be sell outs. Romney is taking money from people who should be in jail, Obama is employing them.
Maybe they should just run the CEO of a company for president and cut out the middleman. Wait a minute, wouldn’t that be Romney?
Lynching ???
This is just beyond ridiculous !!
Obviously just another over-zealous prosecutor trying to make a name for themselves. Seems to be way too many of these lately.
.
Are you for real? Why don't we just start shooting people for Jay Walking, because you know they are breaking the law? Not only only do the charges need to be dropped the prosecutor needs to be investigated for abuse of power. This is why the radical conservatives need to be removed from any position of power, they have absolutely no clue how to administer balanced and fair justice. These nut cases would blow up someone's car for going 5 miles over the speed limit. Unless of course they were also a radical conservative, because the laws don't apply to them.
This is how the police work these days - they will take down and/or pepper spray anyone they don't like - laws be damned. They throw dozens of charges in the arrest report and some do in fact, stick. It is entirely up to the individual to prove their innocence - never for the state to prove guilt. This starts from encounter with police through to prison sentence. We are now all guilty - unless we are a corporation of course, because corporations own the police, district attorneys, and the lawmakers themselves.
Welcome to the the American Taliban folks, owned by the most wealthy - we allowed this to happen on our watch, so shut up and bend over.
Sounds like the beginning of the end!
Next localized curfews? Then Federal.........getting out of control!
So when the police officers band together and protest with the other unions workers, the left loves them. The moment they perform their job, which is reducing mayhem the left vilifies them. When the Tea Party came out in droves, I do not believe there were any arrests. I also do not recall hearing they left their area of protest too filthy for human safety.
So, this is the Hope and Change that was promised? Yeah, that's working out real good for you protestors, isn't it? Your own guy is allowing this to happen. Even better, this is from California, run by Dems for Libs and with a newly elected Dem Gov and this is what you get for your efforts. Think again this November if you really think continuing to vote Dem is going to help. THEY are the ones this happened under!
I'm not a fan or supporter of the various "Occupy" movements around the country. But charging participants with "lynching" seems more than a stretch, even if they were interfering with police. I would call it intentional misuse of an antiquated and archaic law.
I hope the courts strike down the charges.
pjam09 stop making up lies. Show us ONE protester that is screaming for freebies. You can't because you are either a deliberate liar or part of the creedy corruption creeping into our political system.
spider-737231 What protesters blocked your access to the public sidewalk? The same public sidewalk they are entitled to use. Just because you choose not walk on it when they are there doesn't mean you were blocked.
Anyone that would defend law enforcement using 100 year old laws meant for something totally different in an attempt to silent Americans and prevent them from exercising their Constitutional Rights should move to China because you are not a believer in OUR Constitution.
You should not only be ashamed but afraid.
Next you be condoning water boarding them.
what idiot came up with lynching?
Really California is run by dems and libs? Wasnt Arnold a repugnant? and isnt that where Rev Warren has his Crystal Cathedral as well as many other wingnuts. I think you will find that the infiltration of that once bastion of liberalness has now turned it somewhat purple rather than its previous shade of blue. I mean hey the porn industry is in Cali and you know who watches more porn that any ohter people on the planet? you dog gone conservatives, thats who!! Hell we couldnt keep you out of paradise with an electric fence and anti-illegal wingnut laws, you guys spread like a swarm of locusts, if their is someone, somewhere that you can con out of their money either using the bible or your repressive criminal "justice" system then prepare for and invasion of conservatives.
If you look carefully you will see they concentrated on gaining positions of authority in the areas they wanted to turn red, the best way to disenfrachise a voting block is to give then all felonies.
Who is paying these "occupiers" and who put up the $50,000 bond? There is something too organized and wrong with this occupying. Isn't it enough that this is the richest country in the world and where someone with drive and desire can make something of himself/herself with just a bright idea and a few bucks?
Take the young teenager who built toys and then started a business and then hired her mother and father!
This guy Ballesteros talked big on NBC and I wondered who is paying this guy to do all this stuff.
The U.S.A. was built as a free unabashed capitalistic democracy, not as a future socialistic enslavement country.
If you don't like it and don't want to live within its rules and emulate the successful people in the country that the freedom to leave is available.
No it wasn't. The US is a combination of capitalist and socialist ideas, and it's not a democracy, it's a republic. It was also built on trying to have a fair judicial system. Socialism is an economic system not a governmental system so it has no relationship to slavery. This is typical conservative bluster that has no relation to reality and a typical irrational Pavlovian response.
The problem here is that one thing the US was built on was trying to create a fair judicial system. This is vengeance and vengeance leads to totalitarianism. This is why the radical conservatives need to be stopped. They don't understand or care about the founding principles of our nation and they only respect the constitution when it serves their needs.
Yes so the prosecutor should be kicked out of this country for ignoring the fundamental principles of the constitution and the values our country were built on.
The article specifically said it is not sure if he will be prosecuted. From the article:
and
Funny isn't it?
We have had over 3 years of TEA Party activism and not one single arrest. In a mere 4 months of this dysfunctional mob we have had over 2,400 arrests, murders, rapes, drug overdoses, drug trafficking, assaults, vandalism, obstruction of justice, trespassing, public urination/defecation, promoting violence, disturbing the peace, mothers abandoning families and now,,,lynchings.
Today the useful idiots vandalized the White House by throwing smoke bombs on the lawn. Protests that were supposed to bring tens of thousands only brought a few hundred typical angry rioters.
The First Amendment gives "Occupiers" the ability to PEACABLY assemble and protest and address their grievances, but it does NOT entitle them to lawlessness, disrespect for private property or violent anarchy.
Join the true Movement that promotes REAL American beliefs:
Taxed Enough Already
Constitutionally limited government
Fiscal Responsibility
Free-market principles
Non-violent, respectful, peaceful and began the revolution we all need in Nov. of 2010 and will continue to clean our government of all the corruption that is collapsing our great Republic.
I didn't say he did, just entertaining the idea is ludicrous and it's nothing more than an attempt at intimidation. Yes the statement was hyperbole, but no more so then
wilsonaide,
You "Love it or Leave it" people are such a joke. You claim to love America then you tell people who are exercising one of their most basic rights that they should leave. I'm not too worried though. I'm sure that there were plenty of hypocrites (like yourself) telling MLK and civil rights protesters to "love it or leave it" also. MLK decided he'd rather stay and try to make it a more lovable place which resulted in America becoming a little bit better.
Although I disagree with your hypocritical attitude, I encourage you to stay right here in America so that those of us who understand and believe in what it means to be American can have a reminder that we should remain vigilant in our struggle against people who disregard the constitution.
No the Tea Party has been bought out. They are a bunch of one dimensional fools that can't see where the corruption in government is coming from. It's coming from that 1% that doesn't represent business or the middle class or the poor, but a very tiny portion of the population who is parasitically sucking America dry. They don't care about business or the free market, because their ultimately goal is to give the parasites free reign to suck all the blood out they didn't get the first time.
Theft is not a Free Market Principle that that's what the Tea Party are supporting. What is the "Free Market" is that when a vendor rapes and pillages a town he does end up getting lynched. The Tea Party is blocking the "Free Market" by trying to prevent the natural consequences that would get these people prosecuted and put in jail from stealing from us.
In fact OWS + Tea Party DO have the right idea. You combine the principles of both of those groups and we might just get our government functional again.
They want the real patriots to leave so that they can rip America apart and sell her peice by peice. You know kinda like the Bain Capital Model. They know the real patriots will try to stop them.
sense it was Alito himself who led the charge to overturn the 63 year old campaign finance law that allows super pacs and anonymous donors I must say this to anchor. Those on the extremist tea bagging republican side of the isle in government are insane. Repeating the same task over and over expecting a different outcome is beyond child like it is incapable. And furthermore to actively have the right continue to try and hinder and out right destroy freedom and democracy through the afore mentioned article the campaign finance law and the patriot act as well as a voting suppression in the form of fees and other conscripts it seems clear who are truly socialist and communist in this country.
Cheers
Stally, I think a reasonable interpretation of what you posted is the prosecutor should be kicked out of the country for ignoring the constitution. This is what you posted:
You say that is hyperbole, okay I accept that, but you really shouldn't be complaining about the prosecutor when it is not clear if the man will even be prosecuted yet. As for me, I don't know what to make about this. Nobody should be arrested for peacefully protesting, but no one should be allowed to interfere with a police officer trying to do his job either. For all I know, the only charge that can be brought against a man who tries to free someone the police is arresting is lynching. I just don't know California law well enough to say for certain. I do think if the police were trying to arrest a man and Mr. Ballesteros tried to interfere, then Mr. Ballesteros should be charged with something. Again I don't know what that something should be (for all I know the correct legal term is lynching). The definition they gave in the article does seem to support that. The term lynching certainly is not used that way in everyday English, but I would imagine there are a lot of words that mean something different in legal terms than in everyday usage. It will be interesting to see how this turns out.
One thing you should do is leave your hatred of the right out of this. The arrest was made in California, which is controlled by the left. I realize you hate the right for what you believe are attacks against your sexuality, but blaming the wrong party makes you look ill-informed. Have a good day.
pjam and spider are just know-nothing nobodies. I was actually at Occupy LA at city hall the night 1400 SWAT officers closed off city hall and arrested 300. I got out (100/400 escaped the 5,000 dollar booking fee). It by far was not people whining about hand outs. It was teachers, firemen, warehouse workers, legal aides, and every other profession you could imagine. I talked to cops in SWAT gear and 2/3 I talked to pretty much agreed with the protests but were just doing their job. I don't resent them, and LAPD was far more professional than some other cities.
And spider, to address your point about Occupy making the park unusable to the public. Where exactly in the Bill of Rights does it give city hall the right to deny access to the park for more than a month? Since the break up of Occupy LA the city has had a 10 foot wall around the park, not to mention they have another wall around the next closest park (they did this in anticipation of breaking up Occupy LA so they couldn't relocate easily). For more than a month and a half city hall park is closed. It's one of my favorite parks I want to sit next to the fountain and read. But they have it closed off. Funny. When Occupy was there families still roamed the park, and I still sat on my bench next to the fountain and read beneath the flowering trees.
I guess I'll have to wait until next year to read because the city closed this park and another one close by. All to protect the status quo and help out their superiors in DC. Probably to protect their future careers selling out to the very BS Occupy opposes. I can tell you there are at least 2 (maybe 4) people I voted for in city elections that are losing my vote in any other elections due to their behaviors during Occupy. The first and foremost is the mayor, followed by a few others. The fact that several of them got their start in politics from protesting inequities, then stated their support for Occupy, then spear-headed the raiding of it from their city-held offices.... it's hypocrisy and they won't get my vote on the state level or otherwise.
I have been saying it for the last 15 years: Welkom To Amerika. Note the use of the letter "K". Think about it.
Charge them with any arcane law to try to stop their FREE SPEECH. The Gestapo are alive and well in U.S. Police agencies and Prosecutors offices. The courts will throw this one out in a heartbeat and the persecuted should seek civil damages in the millions. I don't care if people like the 'Occupiers' or not. They are protected by their First Amendment Rights like every other American.
Thousands of occupy protesters arrested, still they keep coming back.
Not one arrested from wall street.
Still no real corporate media coverage of the occupy movement.
Something is definitely wrong in this country.
I know what I posted, I was trolling a troll. This is called natural consequences. If you hit someone they hit back, deal with it. You're statement is also trolling because you are ignoring the context for which it was written. This part of the thread should probably stop, because if it does continue will become unproductive.
I never questioned whether or not what the guy was justified. You're inventing an argument here. Since I wasn't there I can't speak on the issue. What I can say is that the punishment should match the crime and clearly here it doesn't. Just because someone runs a red light doesn't mean that the law now has a right to seize their car and house. This is an obscure law whose definition is being bastardized to punish an individual. No reasonable person could think that this is what the law was designed for or even that this was what our founders meant. You're trying to change the topic.
You're actually mistaken. I don't hate the right. In fact I share many of the same views as fiscal conservatives, however I don't share are those of the radical religious right. They defile everything Jesus stood for and distract us from actually fixing the problems we have. They most destructive force in our nation. They bully people and then whine when their victims fights back. They are nothing more than people trying to use the cloak of Christ to hide the blood on their hand. They have to tell people they are moral, because their actions dont'
For me to support the policies of fiscal conservatives I would have to accept a group that I do believe is innately evil, it would be the same as a German supporting the Nazi party because they had a good reconstruction plan for Germany. Evil + Anything = Evil. For our nation to get back on track, the Radical Religious Right needs to be removed from politics and corruption has to be removed from both parties. If you would have really done your homework (which what you did went beyond what most people do) you would see that I am a centrist and that I don't always agree with OWS as I don't always agree with the Tea Party. I find both of their positions Radical and Radical Right + Radical Left leads to Anarchy. They can't mix.
So do I hate the right? Well nothing I say is going to change your opinion, so you can make that determination, but I do think that one aspect that carries over from the radical religious position they take is an arrogant hypocrisy that leads them to try to win at any cost. Even if that cost is America. After all, God leads their course.
I wasn't aware that pointing out your error to you made me a troll, or that it constituted hitting you.
I'm aware of the context of your post and it is irrelevant. You see, it wasn't the hyperbole I was commenting on, it was the error. You said the prosecutor should be kicked out. The prosecution (the lawyers) haven't done anything according to the article. Your post should have read "the police who charged him...." All I can think of in your defense is you were not the only one who made that error. There are lots of people here who are calling for the DA or the prosecutor's head. I'm starting to wonder how many people actually read the article.
I never said you did. Go back and read my post again. I said "As for me, ..." I'm clearly speaking for myself, no one else.
Neither can I, which is why I made it a point to try to point out both side's perspective.
The punishment should fit the crime and helping to free someone the cops are trying to arrest sounds like a pretty serious crime to me (if that is what Mr. Ballesteros truly did and again I do not know what really happened).
I do not know if that is true or not. As I stated earlier, it is possible this is the correct charge for someone who interferes with a policeman who is trying to arrest someone. I simply do not know, we'll let the courts decide and then we can comment with more certainty. According to the article, in at least one case the court apparently has agreed this is the correct charge. From the article:
Back to your post.
Apparently at least one court disagrees with you....
No, I'm not. This is the topic.
Really? Let's look at some of your posts:
Those are just from this one thread! If you don't hate the group I'd love to see what you post when you do hate someone! :)
Really? Care telling me what those views are?
Read your posts I quoted again. No where in them do you mention the religious right. You either mentioned the right by name or you mentioned a pseudonym for the right (conservatives, Tea party, etc.). Perhaps you need to be clearer with your posts?
I have to admit I have met people who fit that description (both religious and non-religious types); however, the majority of religious people I know are pretty decent human beings. Don't you think picking the worst traits of a few and ascribing it to the many is wrong? It is actually a logical error.
Okay, so you call them evil, but you don't hate them. If you believe they are evil, why don't you hate them?
I'm right there with you on removing the corruption from politics (starting with the current administration), but I disagree the Religious Right (or any other law abiding group) should be removed. They have the same right to be heard as the atheists or the agnostics.
Thank you for the compliment. It was a back-handed compliment, but I'll ignore the slight.
Your idea of a centrist is different than mine.
IMHO, we had better find a way for the two groups to coexist or we could be in for some unpleasant times. I think a good start would be to stop referring to one group as evil.
I would think the answer is rather obvious right now.
I seriously doubt the win at all cost mentality you are complaining about is restricted to the religious right. I see quite a bit of it in your posts actually....
I'd love to type more, but I'm tired and want to go to bed. More will just have to wait until next time. My apologies for any grammatical errors I've made - I'm too tired to proofread it like I should.
The original statement wasn't directed at you. It was directed at a poster who was being insulting and irrational. I responded with a hyperbolic response. I've never called you a troll. The only thing I have accused you of is making a dogmatic reply that didn't contain any substance. Now your posts have substance and there is something we can talk about.
There is the letter of the law and then there is the spiritof the law. Since it normally is so hard to know the intent we very often go by the letter, but the spirit is really what matters. The spirit of a lynching law would have to include a malicious intent of harm to someone in custody to meet the spirit of the law. It may be a serious offence, but this is not the law to use to charge the person with. If we allow such a law to be used in this way then we open ourselves up to prosecution by overzealous prosecutors who simply
want another notch under their belt.
Your statement assumes the courts and prosecutors are driven by reason. They're not. That's why worded my statement in such a way. This is an attempt where the prosecutor things the end justifies the means. We can't have that type of arbitrary justice if we want to have a fair system.
I do despise Radicals and right now that's all the conservative movement is filled with. The rational conservatives have been silenced. Some remarks are accurate. Some are Hyperbole. Look at the context of the statement and you can figure that out. When you use language that is simply dogmatic and has no substance, like you did in one of your earlier post, I will call you on it. I did originally support some of what the Tea Party stood for. You can find that in some of my earlier posts. I lost interest when they
decided to take on social issues that they promised not to. They have a point about government, but they don't go far enough down then cause and effect chain to actually identify the problem and the leaders they choose are radical zealots who lack intelligence or wisdom. They're simply the mad white man.
I am really good at reflecting what is sent my way. If you send me hate I will reflect it, if you pull yours back, mine will disappear. Hate begets hate and I will not apologies for showing hate towards someone who has shown that to me. I am also very careful to make sure I surgically direct that hate and try to avoid targets that are not deserving of it. I'm human I admit it. I think hate has a place, and the one place where its called for is when it's a reflection. I always thought MAD was a rational position to take and in fact it seemed to work.
Sorry, but here we have one dimensional thinking. The taint doesn't start at government it starts with some very wealthy individuals (not necessarily corporations) that are trying to seize the system for their own advantage. You will not stop the corruption until you stop whats feeding it. Replacing this administration with the Radicals that are running right now will be a disaster. What we really need is a centrist independent who has a chance to win.
No religious organization belongs in politics. Christianity more so because it violates what Christ was about. However beyond that the Religious Right muddies the fiscal Conservatives message and makes it
irrelevant. They draw a line in the sand and they define conservatism. If fiscal conservatives want to survive they need to stand on their own, otherwise they will be consumed by this monster.
Our politicians want us to think there are two groups, there aren't. As long as there are two groups both parties stay in power. That's why we're taught dogmas instead of facts. Look at the words you use and you will see they are meaningless. Big Governement and Small Government have no it's relative and there is no point to compare. We have been taught Pavlovian responses and that's what both parties want, because that question is easy. How you fix the economy is not.
The religious right that has weaved itself into politics has adopted the same principles as the Pharisees that put Jesus to death and sold their souls to politics. Their mega churches are beasts that need to be fed and their pastors are obscenely wealthy individuals trying to get through the eye of the needle. They feed their beast with bigotry and hatred and distract our nation from the real issues that affect us. They are the False Prophet and they are evil by their own definition. The only way to kill this beast is to show its members their own reflection. Once they realize that and the true good in their heart comes out, the beast will die.
Fiscal conservatives are not evil, nor are moderate conservatives. The Radical Religious Right is.
It wasn't meant to be a slight.
Actually we haven't discussed what a centrist is, so you're making the same mistake that so many make. You assume that since I take a specific position on X that it defines my position on Y when in fact the two are completely unrelated. I've found very little difference in ideals when I sit down with someone and really discuss the issues. The truth is we really aren't that far apart. Our leaders want us to be because it ensures they will get votes. Conflict is interesting compromise is boring.
It's a human condition, but it's found more in radical dogmas. Centrist tend to listen and compromise because they accept a random set of ideals; the best of the best, not a book or rules. Radicals feel that they follow a divine hand and that the question "Why" is heresy. In reality "Why" is the only way that humanity can survive. Any dogma that doesn't need to be explained is inherently evil.
What you see in my posts are often passion and hyperbole. I am always willing to listen to a rational argument, such as this and I will adapt to the tone of the discussion. When I deal with someone thats purely dogmatic, then my replies are dogmatic. I will troll the trolls and I will be radical with the radicals. I will push left when you push right just to see where it leads us. I play devils advocate a lot and sometimes posts things that I don't necessarily agree with just to see what arguments there are against it. In other words I love the role of the mirror.
LOL, me correcting your grammar would definitely be a pot kettle situation. It's been an interesting discussion. There's a lot more that could be covered, but I have to get to work.
Well stally, I rarely agree with you but it is never boring debating you! That is meant as a compliment, please accept it that way.
First my apologies, I prefer to dissect a post line by line , but I've had a brutal week at work and have another long day tomorrow so this will be relatively short. In no particular order, here is my response to your major points.
I'm not certain that is correct. The common usage of lynching would have to include an attempt to harm, but there is nothing that says the legal profession has to use common usage. Professions frequently narrowly define words in ways that common usage does not. To the average man, a ligament and a tendon are interchangeable, but to doctors those are very different terms. Civilians use gun and rifle interchangeably, but Marines and Army personnel make a very clear distinction between the two. According to the article, the California penal code , lynching is “taking by means of a riot of any person from the lawful custody of any peace officer," where "riot" is defined as two or more people threatening violence or disturbing the peace. They are under no obligation to follow the common usage and apparently they have chosen not to. Don't get me wrong, it is deeply troubling to me that they might be attempting to intimidate people who are protesting, but the law seems to back up the arrest.
I've been advocating for a 3rd party for years, but I can't get enough support to make a difference :( And I would hardly call Romney a radical. I'm going to upset some people with this, but I wouldn't call Gingrich a radical either. I remember his days as the house speaker - he talked tough, but at the end of the day he would get the best deal he could, then compromise. I wish we had more politicians who would get the best deal they could, then compromise.
Fixing the economy will be relatively easy in the sense we know how to do it. Actually putting the process in place will be very painful and probably politically suicide. In that sense, it is difficult. My prediction is we will limp along for quite a few more painful years until the overhang of bad debt resolves itself.
That is much, much stronger language than I would use and it is not supported by the churchgoers that I personally know. The church leaders I know are not wealthy individuals and their followers have not adapted the beliefs of the Pharisees. They are simply people doing what they believe is right.
I have to agree with you here. Face to face I rarely find people willing to disregard other people's opinions like I do here on the vine. The Internet seems to be making us very aggressive individuals :(
Then I humbly apologize.
That I do not recommend you do. It is too easy to misinterpret the written word and think someone is pushing when they are not. I know I have been misunderstood on the Internet and I'm sure I have misinterpreted other people's posts as well. I think we should all be civil and ignore small slights until there is no doubt the other person is being an @$$ (doesn't take long for some people).
There is some logic to that; it will definitely sharpen your debating skills, but I would rather post what I honestly believe and stick to it.
You know me, I would love to type more, but I have to go to bed. Take care and we will discuss more either on this thread or a different one I'm sure.
You two should just get a room somewhere and boink each others brains out, and leave us the hell alone.
We've got a room right here. There is no reason why you're forced to voyeuristically watch. If it upsets you, you're free to move on. No one is prying your eyes open and forcing you to look. Stop trolling.
Fairness demands this. The law needs to be clear and concise. Adopting a definition that is ambigious is deceptive. When the definition becomes deceptive the law becomes a trap and that infringes on personal liberties.
The voting system needs to change for this to work. I think this could be achieved by simply allowing people to vote for multiple candidates. The status quo has to go. As long as candidates allow themselves to be bribed and see government as a job interview for their futures, our nation will continue to fail.
Asfar as Romney and Gingrich goes, Romney seems to lack an understanding of the middle class and more than that his business experience is about making money by chopping up and selling companies. We don't want to "Improve" America by chopping her up and selling her piece by piece. Gingrich is a career politician who has had a major hand in the disaster that we see today. He's the old guard and they've proven they can't solve our issues. The Republican Party has moved to the extreme right, their moderates have been forced into becoming Blue Dog Democrats. The Democrats have moderate conservatives, the Republicans don't.
Fixing the economy involves bringing Jobs back. There are many ways to do this. As a small business owner I can tell you that cutting taxes won't help me. Creating demand will help me. Create the jobs create the need and my business will flourish and I will hire more to meet the demand. The debt is somewhat of a distraction and could resolve itself if the core foundation of the economy were repaired. Entitlement spending would also go down as there would be more jobs available.
Imagine if a single rogue platoon ran into France and attacked Paris. Then Paris retaliated and then the platoon claimed France was attacking America. That's what's happening now. A majority of the Church goers are exactly as you describe, but they have been pulled into a war that they had no part in. Their silence is, however, complicity. Every time a politician stands up and says "Christians believe this" they are invoking your name. You support the Pharisees by not challenging them when they use your numbers to support their cause. You adopt their evil. The language is strong, because it will sometimes make the good person look.
When someone is interested, they will challenge what you say. When they do, then you can start having the rational discussion.Until then a lot of it's about posturing.
It is honest. I'm not going to post something I blatantly disagree with, but I may post something I am not sure of, just to raise the question. I have had my mind changed and that's part of the fun of the debate.
I've always said that I never lose an argument, because even when I'm wrong I've learned something.
You two should just get a room somewhere and boink each others brains out, and leave us the hell alone.
Arkius, I'm not sure who your comment is aimed at or even what your complaint is, but people posting here are doing exactly what they are supposed to do. As another poster pointed out, no one is making you read posts. You are free to use the "ignore this poster" link if you want to. Have a good day.
Not really, some laws are vague by neccessity. Do you really want to precisly define reckless driving for example?
I think Romney understands the middle class as well as the other politicians running for office. I don't see any of today's politicians truly looking out for the middle class (at least not on the national level). As far as "chopping up" goes, sometimes that is the best thing you can do. Unfortunately allowing an inefficient business to survive is ultimately more painful than letting it fail. As for Gingrich, you didn't give details so I'm not sure exactly what problems you think he helped create, but I believe he had already left the House by the time the most egregious mistakes were made. Finally, the Republicans are no more radical right than the Democrats are radical left. Sometimes both parties could use a time out.
The demand vs. supply issue, one of the most interesting one I've encountered in my studies of economics. People like to post statements like "creating demand is the most important thing" as if there is some really clear distinction between supply and demand, but the reality is it is a circle and it is really tough to determine which one causes the other. The best way to create demand is to build supply. The very act of manufacturing something ensures money gets spent to hire labor and buy raw materials. Those laborers and suppliers of raw materials now have money and when they spend that money it will create demand. And of course the easiest way to create supply is to demand something! Sorry for the long winded post, but that does illustrate the problem of focusing only on demand or only on supply - the two are linked.
I doubt churchgoers silence is complicity as much as it is powerlessness. Churchgoers I know laugh at the fools who say the earth will end on some specific date, but there is nothing they can do to stop it. It is analogous to Obama saying the middle class wants this health care bill passed. A large portion of the middle class may not want the health care bill to pass, but they are powerless to stop him from saying that. Bottom line is your belief the religious people should be removed from politics is exactly the same as religious people saying non-religious people should be removed from politics. It is wrong from a moral perspective and it is wrong from a practical point of view as well. Once you remove a group's right to peacefully participate in politics what do you think their response will be? By the way, I couldn't help but notice your post keep referring to "you" and "your" when you are referring to Christians. What exactly led you to believe I am a Christian?
Remember the context of my post. It was about immedietely retailiating when you believe some insults you. Insulting some one will interest them, but it will not lead to a rational discussion. Most of the time you are better served by responding with class. You still won't change the mind of the person who is a jerk, but you will impress the other readers.
Fair enough, but if you are not sure about something you should make that clear to the reader.
Until next time.
I did not use the term vague in this statement. I used ambiguous and deceptive with have different meanings. The spirit of the law can be derived by the term reckless. While the term is vague it is not ambiguous or deceptive. Common vernacular can tell you whether or not something was reckless the only real argument is where to draw the line and prosecute recklessness. By redefining the term lynching they have created an ambiguous and deceptive law that does not conform to the common vernacular. That violates fairness and opens up the door for us to be a police state as now law enforcement can charge
anyone with anything simply by redefining the terms of the law.
His statements say otherwise as well as his experience. If we do get a corporate leader, we need one that built a company selling real products, not one that sold pieces of another. America is the company and
it's one where we can't just say isn't worth fixing so we should sell it off. Our Government has been doing that for the past 30 years. We're now suffering because of their treason.
I would have to disagree on this one. Supply will be horded and not go back into the circle of demand. That's why for instance reducing taxes are a bad idea to get the economy moving. If my company is running efficiently then I have enough people to meet the demand for my business. If more jobs
would increase my revenue stream then I would hire more. If you give me money, I will take that money and put it in my pocket and maybe the pocket of my workers; I will not hire more people because I am already running at full efficiency. Take that money and instead put it into orders and I will no longer be running efficiently and I will need to hire more people to handle the load.
Then right or wrong, natural law says they better be prepared to fight a war they didn't start or want. The fact is they do have power; they have a voice. The real Christians need to stand up and say that these people don't speak for me.
Exactly! The truth doesn't need God to validate it. Every valid argument for morality has a practical argument. I don't need to invoke the name of God to tell you why murder is wrong. The truth stands on its own. If the only argument you have involves God, then maybe you don't actually understand what God is saying (Its arrogant and presumptuous to assume you know what God is saying, because that implies you know the mind of God and only God can know that) Religious individuals have a right to be in Government. What they don't have a right to do is to enforce arbitray laws whose only argument is validated by their belief in God. A sound argument that does not contain the premise of God MUST exists before something can become law.
You haven't been posting that long have you? There are many bullies on this playgroundand they don't respond to a rational argument; they respond to a punch in the nose. You need to watch more Mad Max films. The rational ambassador normally ends up with his head on a pike. So when you meet people you posture to see what you're dealing with. Once you know you're not dealing with a troll or an irrational zealot, then you can take the conversation to the next level.
Your first response was on filled with dogmatic platitudes. Dogmatic platitudes have no meaning and are Pavlovian Responses. They are used the master to control their dogs. The people they control are in the Mad Max sense are members of the toothless horde chasing Max. Normally they end up dead in the first 5 minutes and the audience never remembers them because as individuals they are unmemorable and indistinguishable from the rest of the horde.
It is not that the Evangelicals or Believers be removed from politics it is that religion and politics make poor decisions for the masses or better yet they make poor bedfellows. If the religious right movement could remove their belief system from politics then by all means let them participate but when they begin to influence the lives of others through engaging in politics by lobbying (influence since they cannot lobby) and force their morality upon others of a different belief system but of good ethical character is when they should and must be removed from the political machine. Even their self confessed moralities should guide them to recuse themselves from politics but alas their moral compasses are broken and we have the mess in our laps that we all must suffer from.
Our founding fathers would not have written a clause in the Constitution separating Church and State had they not seen what religion does to the State and its citizens. I am amazed that these Christians are so self centered that they do not see their own faults as they seem to point out the faults of others in their fervor to influence politics. As a nation we are doomed to fail as long as we allow and permit these zealots to influence the law of the land based upon religious belief.
I've got two of you concentrating on the religious right so I guess this is a good place to start. I think both of you are concentrating on the bad apples and completely ignoring the good that religion does. Keynes is his General Theory book rhetorically asked if it was possible to have a moral society without religion. I believe some poster up ahead wrote that deregulation was the cause of our current crisis and I do not believe that is correct. Plenty of regulations are on the books, but they were not enforced. It still amazes me that more people have not gone to jail for the liar loans that did so much damage. It doesn't take a genius to realize it is wrong to lie on your application forms, nor that it is wrong to have a bank certify that the form is correct when they know it is not. In short, we are in this mess because of a lack of morals. So, if not religion, exactly how do you two plan on putting more morals in the country? Laws, while necessary, clearly are not working as well as we would hope.
I also think you two have overstated the importance that religion is playing in politics. Romney and Huckelbee's religion cost them more votes than it gains them. I honestly cannot believe there is this much talk about restricting one group's ability to participate in politics.
Actually the clause about religion seems to protect, not restrict religion. They didn't want a state religion, but they clearly were not trying for no religion at all.
There voice is severely restricted by both access and time. Religious people can no more spend their lives saying "the pastor in Florida does not speak for me, nor does the Bishop in Chicago, nor does the priest in Nantucket, etc" than you can spend all day saying "the councilwoman in Detroit does not speak for me, the Congressman from the 12th District in California does not speak for me, The Vice-President does not speak for me, etc." Again, Barack Obama constantly speaks about how the middle class wants his policies, how do you propose the portion of the middle class that does not want his policies prevent him from claiming that they do? The only practical way you could eliminate people claiming they speak for everyone is to change the first amendment laws regarding free speech and the cure is definitely worse than the disease. No, it is up to all of us to evaluate how much support religious leaders or politicians have and the truth is the nut-cases in both groups do not enjoy that much support. No point wasting much time worrying about them.
Fair enough, now go back and read the definition of lynching given in the article. It is neither ambiguous nor deceptive. Yes, it differs from common usage and I think they should give it a different term, but both of us agree that freeing a person the police are trying to arrest is a very serious offense. If the man did that the police had every right to arrest and charge him.
If the private industry can do the job better then I think we are better off selling off the pieces. What we are missing here is the national debate on what government does better than the private sector and what the government does not do better than the private sector. Maybe Romney is the man to do that, maybe not, I do not know.
I spent a couple of minutes trying to think of a case where supply would be hoarded and there simply are not that many. Resources necessary to buy supply might be hoarded, but the supply itself will not be. It does not make any sense to build 1,000 Honda Civics and then not sell them, nor to build 1,000 homes and then let them sit idle. And even if someone were to do that, the essential point is they still would have to pay workers to build the product and those workers will now have money to buy things, which will raise demand.
Economists and politicians from both sides of the aisle disagree with you. Obama just got a lot of political points getting his payroll tax reduction plan passed for example.
But any company can always get more efficient. There are always upgrades you can do, special skills you can obtain, old equipment that can be replaced, interest bearing loans that can be repaid, etc. Paying less in taxes is one way to get money in the hands of owners so they can accomplish that.
Okay, exactly what laws are the religious right passing? Both you and Intellect make it sound like we are living in Iran and I simply do not see any evidence for this. We are a long way from religious zealots taking over the law of the land.
I believe that is the "win at any cost" mentality you referred to earlier. What is wrong with conducting yourself with class when you deal with others? I admit on a couple of occasions I have not conducted myself with class here, but I feel bad afterwards. I still say it is better to take the conversation to the next level right from the start, then you can change later if your opponent really deserves it.
You are confusing me when you say my first response was filled with platitudes. Are you sure you are not confusing me with someone else? Here is my first response in its entirety:
I just do not see any platitudes there.
Sounds like governments even Democratic ones are getting a bit tired of the professional protesters who never fail to find a cause. Sure beats getting up and actually having to drive into work day after day, year after year.
So you agree to NOT use your right to assembly when you lose your job because of corporate malfeasance, right? Be thankful you live in a country where people protect the rights of even the laziest, most ignorant individuals such as yourself.
Always hilarious when people say the protesters should get jobs. WHAT JOBS?
Bruce
You can assemble all you want just don't interfere when the police are making an arrest. He made a stupid move and he is getting what he deserves for his stupidity. The charges will probably be dropped but I wonder how long it will take to get his 50K back? Where the hell does a lazy, ignorant, stupid OWS guy get 50K?
Bart - I was thinking about making a list of every OWS protester names I can get my hands on. I bet I could sell the list to corporations for their "Do Not Hire" list. Opportunities present themselves all the time. I want to join the 1%.
He loves the Crow laws.
JH you should go Occupy LA!
How about ANY job? Dig a hole. Wash dishes. Clean toilets. Do SOMETHING.
This sounds as though we are a Police State like Germany was made to be after WWII. Money talks and BS walks which is self explanatory in most instances.
Like it or not, it is a right in this "free" society. If Villaraigosa wants to continue to be Mayor (or anything in govenment in a left-leaning society), he may want to think twice about what his police are doing.
Amazing that only the liberals seemed to be concerned about our rights as they relate to our freedoms... the right is only concerned with one right, and that is to bear arms (which is a right to help preserve freedom).
@ Bart seem to be plenty of jobs
http://losangeles.craigslist.org/jjj/
Could you be any more ignorant???
Yeah, JH. I bet you wouldn't have interfered when the police stopped Schwerner, Goodwin & chaney & arrested them to the bottom of a MS creek. Most people know the kind of BS police inflict on people & not even you would be exempt from it if they caught you in their BS trap.
JH, go learn what "bail" is and then come back. Moron.
LMFAO@Larry. I'm not certain where to begin so I'll let you choose.
Sounds like governments even Democratic ones are getting a bit tired of the professional protesters who never fail to find a cause.
I'm not going to go all English professor on you (although someone will surely indulge). Instead, I'm going to ask you to look at this country's Constitution and focus on the parts referring to freedom of assembly.
Never fail to find a cause?
God forbid! (Willing to bet you're a church person.) The day there is nothing left to stand up for is the day we as a society, a race, have given up.
Sure beats getting up and actually having to drive into work day after day, year after year.
You make going to work seem so alluring. Hope you're not giving that same speech to your children ... assuming you have them.
Makes me almost regret that I work from home, spend next to nothing on gas, don't add extra hours on to my day driving and am pretty @!$%#ing content when the day is over.
I'm not here that often,
BUT (I guess) often enough to see hatred.
PLEASE stop the bipartisanship/racism/sexism/etc. PLEASE.
Please, "debate," i.e (that is) without emotional venom?
Please?
Army, most people are reluctant to find jobs on websites like Craig's List. I sure as hell am after all the reports of the Craig's List Killer, etc. A few months ago, a story was ran about a guy who owned a farm and was looking for help on Craig's List. He killed the guy who showed up.
^ Fox News, so you know I'm not posting a supposedly "liberally biased MSN article"
@Bart Conner - I totally agree. It's kind of like when you are behind on your mortgage and the bank asks you if you have tried to sell your home. I mean seriously? The customer service reps for the banks are not exactly up on current events. Who is able to sell their home in this housing market???
Bart Conner:
What jobs?. The OWS Protesters can sweep up their own mess left in the streets, defecating on Private and Public Parks, leaving their garbage behind--filth.
They can wash off the Graffitti off the Bldgs, they smeared--or put some new windows in the stores they vandalized.
2 people were killed. They should have volunteered to have dug their graves. There is Mass Work available. They made enough work for the people who cleaned up their Sh-----------------.
No Sympathy for these hoodlums.
Bart,
I have a job, my two bothers have jobs(infact, one of them has two), my father works two jobs, my mother has a job, and up until a few years ago my grandmother even had a job. There is work to be had out there. Many of the OWS protestors however are not interested in that kind of work. They get degrees in creative writing, philosophy, and music appreciation and then get angry because there is no work in that field to be had, who would have thought eh? If you get a worthless degree don't go stomping your feet and holding your breath just because there is no work to be had and you owe for your student loans.
Many of the protestors are not willing to look for work or decent jobs, they want their hobbies to be jobs, there is a reason it is called "starving artist"
the ones in Salem, OR, left when they were told to and cleaned up and spread bark dust over the worn grass areas. nice and neat. too bad more didn't follow the good example
This is nuts. What's next, assault charges if you complain to your Congressman at a public meeting? Bad, bad move on the LA prosecutors part. Shame on the LA County DA for overreaching.
This is about the most outlandish thing I have ever heard of. The LA Prosecutor ought to be embarrassed for not immediately ruling out such a possibility. If you want to charge him with interfering with police in the execution of their duty, have at it, but felony lynching?
There seems to be a trend where some local law enforcement are attempting to hold "possible charges" over people's heads in an obvious attempt to take them out of action in the protests. This attempt to threaten and suggest possible serious charges over a little civil disobedience is ridiculous and seems like a clear case of harassment.
I don't care if you don't like or agree with the Occupy protesters or not, but you have to admit that this kind of thing is going to extraordinary levels in an attempt to suppress the protests. Tear gas, pepper spray, riot gear, batons,rubber bullets and now manipulating the legal system. This is just totally wrong. Didn't see anything like this used against Tea Party protesters. Nor should have it been, just like it shouldn't be used now against the Occupiers.
Bill Crane, post #3- EXCELLENT!!! More than "Shame On". It's reverse-lynching (Harassment, by Abuse of Power [with intent] to purposefully and punitively and venomously target to Discriminate against a single Protester [with intent] to purposefully interfere to alienate and intimidate the encompassing Protest, itself, also) on the DA's part.
1NewDay, #3.1- EXCELLENT!!! Really Totally EXCELLENT!!!!!
These kind of manufactured charges basically dare every fed-up citizen in this country to head for the streets. With laws like that -- who wants to obey them? With our banking system, who wants to invest in it? With our politicians, on both sides of the aisle, who wants to pay for them?
@Melissa-1175724-1762238 - The people who want you to obey them are the people who demanded the law was enacted. Welcome to America, I hope you enjoy your stay.
The only people that should be on trial are the mayors, city councilors, police chiefs and commissioners who issued orders to forcibly remove people. They have repeated violated the protesters first and fourth amendments and now these a$$holes are about to violate this mans fifth and eighth constitutional rights.
The mayors, city councilors, police chiefs and commissioners acted on the protesters without warrant or just cause.
The people need to be given the ability to bring about criminal charges before a grand jury. We can no longer trust those that we have entrusted to protect us. And we should no longer sit quietly.
So, in the land of freedoms, free speech and the American dream, duh...it isn't. Surprise, surprise; they always shut the pie hole and any thing that disrupts the killing machine. Why be in America when you can rally in Hitler's Germany? After all, it is the nation of the most brainwashed homo sapiens on the planet. Welcome to the good ole USA.
If you don't stride the line and walk and talk the walk, you're outta here. Onward, one nation under god. Keep silent but keep on helping and feedin the rich pigs because, you are the brainwashed, drone worker bees who exist only to feed the top wealthiest as their honey bees. So utterly free, so utterly America. Freedoms, glories, free speech and bs. Now, if you're in the top one percent, no holes barred.
Who is paying these "occupiers" and who put up the $50,000 bond? There is something too organized and wrong with this occupying. Isn't it enough that this is the richest country in the world and where someone with drive and desire can make something of himself/herself with just a bright idea and a few bucks?
Take the young teenager who built toys and then started a business and then hired her mother and father!
This guy Ballesteros talked big on NBC and I wondered who is paying this guy to do all this stuff.
The U.S.A. was built as a free unabashed capitalistic democracy, not as a future socialistic enslavement country.
If you don't like it and don't want to live within its rules and emulate the successful people in the country, remember the freedom to leave is available.
Remember you get paid(rewarded) for the work you do, not how loud you scream.
You all can move to another country if you dont like it here. You would be happier and we the people would be happier as well.
Fact is, their activity EXACTLY fits the statute. none of you would object if it were used to arrest people trying to free a white person charged in the death of a black.
Tearing an arrested person out of the police and attempting to have the crowd protect them is a felony.
If you can't do the Time, dont do the Crime
This latest "move" by the police to squash the Occupy Wall Street protests is an "overreach" by them to intimidate and silence the demonstrators. The more they mistreat the demonstrators, the more sympathetic people will become towards the Occupy Wall Street movement. This kind of ghoulish behavior shows that the 1% has extreme and disproportionate power. The story will probably go viral...then the system will back down. How much worse can these swat teams become?
What ever happened to America?
Hauser Aspen study to be a lawyer. I am tired of a few big mouths refusing to allow law abiding citizens walk the streets. There are many socialist countries you can go to, and quite a few dictatorships.
I will pay 50 cents to each of the OWS fools if they move to either Cuba or N Korea
Nothing like this since the Chicago 7. Not too many cases of police brutality but now it's intimidation by the authorities. Less violent but still an attack on Civil Liberties.
When the political machine escalates the confrontation it has always resulted in the collapse of the political machine. They arrested protesters in the 60's till the "Grandmothers' March." We need the elders at the forefront again.
here and there, I will match it. How can these fools not appreciate the greatest country on earth? The country with the greatest freedoms and the most chances to improve oneself?
My grandparents came over in steerage. No welfare, no social security, no guarantees, they didn't even speak English. They both worked 12 hour days. My grandfather who was a peon was an apprentice to a shoemaker, my grandmother took in wash. No government handouts.
These unwashed kids want it handed to them on a silver platter. Put them to work cleaning trash, washing graffiti off buildings, cleaning up the vacant yards. Let them know what work is. Maybe while they are working and "saving" their money, they can think up a new invention or go to night school.
Worse, is that these "anti-lynching" laws probably sat on law shelves collecting dust because the police did not legitimately use them against true racist mobs. It is not uncommon to still drag rivers in the South and haul up the dead bodies of Black men that were true victims of racist mob lynchings. It is unbelievable the low level that some people will sink to to preserve the economic and political inequities in our current society. Hopefully, Mr. Ballesteros can sue and walk away the victor.
wilsonaide,
Democracy means people should have the right to protest and not be abused and locked up if they chose to do so.
This is what I consider a benefit of protests. Not that people are getting abused by over-zealous authority, but that these abuses of power are illuminated for the world to see. An added bonus is to watch the intolerants rant about how they hate hippies. Wilsonai......
Actually that only applies to conservatives.
How does a person intentionally put limits on their views of the world around them and resort to that love it or leave it mentality? When a person says such things - they are really saying I don't like your kind regardless of facts and laws.
Ballesteros over reacted, big deal. Look at his entire works and you see a caring person who helps others before he helps him self...hardly a criminal. Resorting to hating him is more a crime IMO.
Funny isn't it?
We have had over 3 years of TEA Party activism and not one single arrest. In a mere 4 months of this dysfunctional mob we have had over 2,400 arrests, murders, rapes, drug overdoses, drug trafficking, assaults, vandalism, obstruction of justice, trespassing, public urination/defecation, promoting violence, disturbing the peace, mothers abandoning families and now,,,lynchings.
Today the useful idiots vandalized the White House by throwing smoke bombs on the lawn. Protests that were supposed to bring tens of thousands only brought a few hundred typical angry rioters.
The First Amendment gives "Occupiers" the ability to PEACABLY assemble and protest and address their grievances, but it does NOT entitle them to lawlessness, disrespect for private property or violent anarchy.
Join the true Movement that promotes REAL American beliefs:
Taxed Enough Already
Constitutionally limited government
Fiscal Responsibility
Free-market principles
Non-violent, respectful, peaceful and began the revolution we all need in Nov. of 2010 and will continue to clean our government of all the corruption that is collapsing our great Republic.
Hi 25Walker,
Thank goodness then we don't have a democracy, and never have had a democracy. The idea was floated in the 1700s but was eventually flushed.
To the extent these amazingly ill-informed twits follow the law when protesting I will defend them. I do think this charge might be over-reach, but I'll let the investigation play itself out before I claim to know what happened. The better course of action with these OWS morons is to directly confront their maniacal rhetoric with facts, and trust the voters to know how best to vote.
It wasn't until these fools finally found Washington, DC, that they even got close to the proximate cause of their troubles. Too bad that these people understand economics even less than they understand the constitution.
25Walker
You're omitting a significant word.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. (Emphasis mine)
BTW. We are NOT a Democracy. America is a Federal Constitutional Republic with a Representative Democracy. A Democracy and a Republic are not only dissimilar as forms of government, they are antithetical. A Representative Democracy simply acknowledges that we have periodic free elections.
The Wall Street financial crooks get away with mass fraud and destroy our economic system with no arrests or prosecutions, and this man is charged with Lynching to intimidate and silence him ??????? This is ludicrous !!!!!
I live in Los Angeles. I intend to call everyone in City Goverment I can tomorrow and raise a stink !!!!!!!
here and there and wilsonaide, I'll give you fifty bucks each to get the hell out of my country with your lying, butt-kissing bullspit
funny how the so-called reich-wing nationalists are the ones that support the crushing of any dissent
We have the right wing nut cases putting out the false sh+t talking points again. They do not work.The constant time wasting and wasting time on talking points that do not make sense. The de-regulation that caused the problems does not work. We need the Glass-Stegal act and we need to separate the traditional banking from the other Sh+t.
If you want the economy to grow, the banks need to make there money from loaning money rather then through speculation.
We have over 20 million houses vacant plus another 20 million in foreclosure. Then we have the executives come in here. Yes the executives come in here and write stupid comments that are false.
We need to raise the taxes on anyone with assets over 2 million and who has income, earns more then 1 million a year. They need to be taxed at 93% if they earn more then 1 million a year.
We need to break up the banks. We laws that mandate accountability. We have the surpreme court create a corporate person. That is a corporatio is a person now. We individuals to be accountable.
The SEC always settles out of court. Its a failed instituition. We FED lend money to the Banks that then use it to speculate on food. This is the criminal state of affairs. The criminologists around the globe refer to the american financial firms as the crime sydnidcate. Well we can be proud. We have the most criminals in the world and the biggest crime wave ever. The bankster familes should be proud. THey own the DOJ, They own the SEC, OCC and AGs and always settle out of court for a fraction of the cost. Way to go. Its an american success story. They threw 55 million americans into poverty and they dance and celebrate this.
We find that the economy system is wrecked in the USA by the crony capitalism. The lie about if you work hard when people like Romeny ran sack 80 year old corporations. That is the biggest problem. Now its a lie. Work hard or not, the congress of the corporations make sure they win and you don't.
We live in a cashoracy. Taking the guess work out of democracy.
Bill O’Reilly and Sean Hannity have there heads up each others a++. How else can you explain how stupid they are? The kochsuckers are spraying the fertilizer overly thick.
here and there, I will match it. How can these fools not appreciate the greatest country on earth? The country with the greatest freedoms and the most chances to improve oneself?
My grandparents came over in steerage. No welfare, no social security, no guarantees, they didn't even speak English. They both worked 12 hour days. My grandfather who was a peon was an apprentice to a shoemaker, my grandmother took in wash. No government handouts.
These unwashed kids want it handed to them on a silver platter. Put them to work cleaning trash, washing graffiti off buildings, cleaning up the vacant yards. Let them know what work is. Maybe while they are working and "saving" their money, they can think up a new invention or go to night school.
FreedomRingsLoud,
The constitutional and civil rights of the O.W.S. protesters have been repeatedly violated.
You emphasized the word "peacefully."
Mr. Ballesteros may have been coming to the aid of a protester who was unnecessarily being roughed up by the police. Do you think that it should be standard procedure to charge our citizens with "lynching" if they try to aid or assist another human being?
Did you see the video tape of the cop spraying pepper spray into the faces of the students at the University of California at Davis? These students were protesting peacefully. The officer seemed glad to spray these young women and men with the cayenne pepper. Did you see the 4 female demonstrators who were at an O.W.S. New York protest and who were corralled into a pen and then without provocation were struck with pepper spray?
Mr. Ballesteros is looking at excessive charges.
This is not what we have told the rest of the world.
We are a Federal Republic.
We state that we operate under the political principles of Democracy.
Your bell "rings loudly."
However, it does not ring for equality and freedom.
Proves we the 99% are all slaves to the 1%
I just wish that I lived in a country where the American government DEMANDS that the people be given the right to protest. Even if the protests occupy large sections of major cities, and cripple the economies of those countries.
Tunisia, Algeria, Egypt, Libya, and Syria have ALL seen their leaders be told by America that the right to protest is an inherent right of all people everywhere, and cannot be denied. Bahrain was told so less vehemently, but then again, America has the 5th fleet stationed there.
Perhaps someone could explain to me: WHY IS IT THAT THE RIGHT TO PROTEST, DISRUPT AN ECONOMY, AND BRING A GOVERNMENT TO ITS KNEES IS AN "INHERENT RIGHT COMMON TO ALL PEOPLE" UNLESS AND UNTIL THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT'S INTERESTS ARE THREATENED?!?
I just don't understand why a country like Russia or China doesn't bring an action to the U.N. Security CVouncil seeking to place sanctions against the U.S.A. for the heavy handed police action taken by the "security forces" in America. It would, at the very least, underscore the HYPOCRISY that exists between this country's foreign policy, and internal actions.
Abuse of power, corruption… I served in the military and may not agree with these protestors, but I'll defend their RIGHT to say it!!! Lynching?! REAL Lynching is a horrible crime which deserves attention, protesting is NOT lynching. Whoever, pushed for this needs to be suspended! This is America, protesting is a right, no matter how inconvenient it may be to politicians.
Jim, he's not be charged for Protesting. He's being charged for trying to pull a person away from the cops who were arresting that person. THAT is why the lyinching law is in affect. He had no business doing it.
I don't support OWS. Personally I think they should get jobs and do something worthwhile with their lives. I DO Support the right to protest, so long as their rights don't infringe on anyone elses. Such as blocking streets or access of others trying to go about their own days, and going to work.
The Republican/TPers get a great kick out of calling the rest of us Socialist.
This looks a whole lot like Communism to me!
Support your local police - arm them with nuclear weapons so they can do their job right!
wilsonaide, you're either seriously uninformed, naive, or brainwashed. First of all, we don't have to leave this country, it's our duty as American citizens to speak out against a corrupt and unjust government. That's why our forefathers created the Constitution, to limit government control, and prevent big government. If you look at all the laws and regulations that affect our way of life, there are too many violations of the Constitution to count.
Rings Loud: you are forgetting the jack**s who stomped the woman's head he didn't agree with at the TP Rally in KY in 2010. Arrested and charged.
This use of the "lynching" law is clearly a Bill of Attainder and is specifically forbidden by the Constitution along with "ex post facto" laws. A bill of attainder is usually defined as "a legislative act that singles out one or more persons and imposes punishment on them, without benefit of trial." But a Bill of Attainder is also when either the executive or legislative officials re-interpret an existing law to specifically go after a person or group of people. An ex post facto law is a law or other mandate that is passed to restrict behavior that was, when practiced, entirely legal. Again, it also includes when an existing law was re-interpreted in the same manner.
The problem here is that everyone knows what "lynching" is. And use of this law to create a new felony that restricts freedom of assembly and freedom of speech is clearly unconstitutional.
It only shows you not only how powerful the 1% are but how scared they are of this sort of populism. You may see "lynching" be re-defined as something you have never seen before, but you will never see corporate "personhood" be used to put even a corporate mass murdered in jail for even a minute. It shows how much people like the LA DA behind this are owned by the monied interests. It reminds me greatly of when BP snapped its fingers after the Gulf spill and a dozen GOP Senators jumped in front of the cameras to apologize because the government was interfering with BP's "right" to pollute.
Here is an idea for US police: hit a protester with a squad car so that he crashes through a windshield and then arrest him for breaking and entering, assault on a police officer and destruction of state property.
(sarcasm intended)
The purpose of the lynching law was to protect individuals who were in police custody from those that intended to do harm (historically this typically involved beatings and hangings by a mob). Mr. Ballesteros was simply coming to the aid of a fellow protestor who only crime was merely stepping into the street during a crowded protest. There was no intent to do harm to the protestor. This is a travesty of justice and an abuse of power. If this charge was allowed to stand, then the implications to American freedoms are dire. The American people should not remain silent while core rights and freedoms are being systematically eroded. The Government works for us, not the other way around.
CA penal code 405a is not some old law they dug up just for this. I have used this law many times when working in Los Angels. When apprehending suspects for public drunkeness and disorderly conduct downtown the others in the crowds of several hundred being forced out of the clubs would try to pull the suspects away from us or open the suad car doors and turn prisoners loose.....we would apprehend them also for 405A lynching.
When we raided gang parties or served warrants in Nickerson Gardens it was the same. members of the area would swarm around and toss rocks and bottles and try to rescue their buddies from custody...
Thats the scope and purpose of this law, to charge people who use physical force or riot to take people from police custody.
The author of this story should have known that but probably choose to lean it the way he did to incite people as usual.
blah blah blah,. and they walked uphill in the snow both ways with no shoes...
nothing you have said invalidates any of the other facts
Go ahead and up the ante, pigs. There are more of us than you, we have our inalienable civil rights on our side, you are on the wrong side of history, and you will soon pay the price. Protect and serve, or be eliminated.
You said the truth "Bruce in Austin"!! The only things the pigs are "protecting and serving" are their corporate masters! MO MONEY, MO MONEY, MO FU*KING MONEY!!
I'm tired of the police arresting the victims while the criminals on wall street keep stealing from america. I don't want good cops to die, but when good cops stand by or "protect their brother cops" by not holding bad cops accountable the good cops put themselves in harms way. If this keeps up, there may be a wave of police killings eventually.
I must note, this is not a threat of violence, only a prediction of what others will eventually do out of retaliation for bad cops violating americans constitutional rights. Police will probably delete this lower comment and arrest me for terrorism.
Amen, brother! I'm in Austin, too.
Bruce: Hate to break it to you but since Obama signed NDAA into law, anyone can now be classified as a terrorist, arrested without charge, held indefinitely without legal counsel and right to a trial by jury. Go look up the NDAA law. You may not remain so sanguine about your 'rights.'
Yep. Still waiting for at least one banker to be arrested.
Urban Cowboy with that attitude, you will not find a job. And your attitude assures me that you will not find an education either. Just because you may be a U.S. citizen, it doesn't guarantee you a free ride in life. Or are you such a dolt, that you think you can intimidate people to feed and clothe you and put beer money in your pocket?
Who's asking for a free ride? You mean the wealthy who refuse to pay their entire fair share of taxes but would rather lower the salaries of working men and women and do away with their insurance and "entitlements"? The billionaires who get HUGE government subsidies on their businesses? Are those the lowlifes you are talking about Wilsonaide?
Sounds like an inchoate offense, any chance they can find the clever-minded assclown district attorney trying to use this arcane statute and transport him to the nearest tree with a convenient horizontal branch? I think once a rope is around his neck he will get an solid education into just what the actus reus of "lynching" means. This douche bag D.A. has some nerve to pull this classless stunt on the cusp of MLK day.
Why do you hate black people?
Drewbot, I think the gist of Granite’s comments have eluded you. Please re-read and try again. I think you’ll see that you’re in complete agreement with him.
Granite-1297101 You know you have the inalienable right to leave this hell hole and find a lower level of dante's inferno. You don't appreciate the greatest country on earth, the freedoms, the opportunities and the chances that no other country on earth gives you.
You are free to leave and lower the intelligence of some other country.
wilsonaide, I served three decades in uniform for the rights of ignorant Americans like you, and even saw and lived in several countries with peaceful societies that are significantly better educated and more civilized than this country (or as you put it "hell hole"). Most countries in the world don't even have a "lynching" law, that is because they did not participate or profit in the scourge of slavery, nor did they engage in social stratification and prejudice at a racial level. Nope, that was largely your good old USA where good white Christian men rallied together to commit genocide against native-Americans and/or cowardly wore sheets or burned crosses to terrorize and lynch African-Americans, and still they sang "Closer My God to Thee" at Sunday morning church services. Freedoms, opportunities, chances? You have no idea of the depth of ignorance that you are advocating.
Or we can stay and fight for the country that we love and is being stolen from us. That's what's really pissing the radical right off.
Well I wonder how long it would be before our law people would stoop to that level. I don't even know why that law is still in the books. Faced these goons on the picket line before then they come around to the plant wanting us to contribute to their PAL and their union.
Hey Stally,
What aspects of the nation are being stolen from you? I'm suspecting you and I disagree, with you far more aligned with the OWS crowd than most, but that doesn't mean I don't want to know what part of America you think is being lost, or stolen.
For my part I think that economic liberty is on the decline, being replaced by ideas like social justice (a pernicious idea if ever there was one). And I think the constitution, which was designed to help constrain the government so that you could pursue the kind of free life you wanted, is largely eroded, though definately not for the reasons the political left would claim.
I hope to see your reply.
You haven't been paying attention have you? Or perhaps you aren't old enough to remember the early 70's where we actually had a middle class. America created a great economy through our sweat and blood and we gave that economy away to nations that couldn't reciprocate. The 2000 crash, and more recently the 2008 crash which had a lot to do with banking deregulation. The CEO's made a fortune the companies and their employees didn't. Corruption is our problem and that pretty much exists in business and government. The whole concept of a free market is flawed because it's based on the principle of evolution and in order for evolution to exists the corrupt needs to get destroyed. The corrupt doesn't it just moves on to another company ... or runs for office. Somehow the Tea Party thinks the government does all this on their own.
I have no idea what you've just said. It sounds clever, but in actuality it's a bunch of mindless drivel that has no substance. You use broad and sweeping terms that obscure the actual issues. It's like the pointy
haired boss saying ... we need to exploit our synergies to optimize our output! Well, that's nice. Why don't you define what those synergies are that we need to exploit? Why don't you say something tangible?
Granite-1297101 You are advocating armed insurrection against the law enforcement establishment of the U.S. That is not a freedom. You never served in the military. You lack the discipline. It is evident in your speech. You are an anarchist. Name the countries you lived in that are more civilized and educated than the U.S.A. that you lived in. Your right most countries don't have lynching laws. They just take you out and kill you. A bullet or a fall or a stabbing does the job just as well as a rope.
How ignorant you are. Every country in the world has population stratification. What bullshi* are you selling now? On MLK anniversary you are advocating exactly the opposite of what he was preaching. Peace and good will to each other. You are a rabid racist. The U.S.A. does not need your kind. I am sure there are other countries that will hire you to broadcast your poison. Why don't you look for one.
MLK dream is further out of the reach of the people he wanted most to help and you are one reason for it.
No, as possibly the only actual Los
Angeles county and city resident on this thread, Granite has got it right. Both the mayor and the DA got elected on a platform that respects this level of civil discourse. They're both losing my vote on the city/state/any other levels for at first supporting Occupy, and then turning around and orchestrating the SWAT raid upon Occupy.
BTW I was at Occupy LA documenting too so that experience trumps what any right wing paid commenter here says about it.
Welcome to the new world, the United States of China.
wilsonaide, I am not advocating armed insurrection, only poking at the jocularity of this inappropriate statute cited by this dunder-headed D.A. And as for the freedoms of the people, I am no-tea-bagger, however some people do have the right to overthrow the government -- you need to look-up Art 10 of the New Hampshire Constitution, which since 1783 guarantees the citizen's right to revolution. This is why "Live Free or Die" is the state motto. And yes I did serve, 32-years to be precise, and you troll? And since you ask, some of those modern countries and societies I take as more civilized than the USA are the UK (and much of Commonwealth), Scandinavia, plus most of northern Continental Europe. Among those I have lived in are the UK, Denmark, Switzerland, and Germany (I have reservations about Turkey). And for your social science lesson of the day, most of the world does not have the manner of racial stratification on a par with the USA and several former British, Dutch, or German colonies. Believe me, there is a difference between economic, ethnic, and racial stratification. You allude to factors other than race and race only came into the conversation because of the insensitivity of the D.A. trying to enforce a thoroughly stale law on the occasion of the MLK birthday. Have you considered taking some remedial or continuing education courses to better inform your populist opinions? You said in an earlier post that your kin arrived not speaking English, that signals you are a Scandinavian Wilson, and I gather a block-headed Swede or Finn as the Yankees used to call them.
This is all part of the beginning of a "police state" in America. BEWARE. In the last 40 years, each decade has seen police departments across the country becoming more violent and more like the Germany of the late 30's. Have we learned nothing from history?
@anti-trust: Learned from history?---------------No!
The refined and improved Goebbels. ElRushbo, Hannicrap and their ilk.
Hate to break it to you but it was Obama and Congress who pushed through the NDAA law. Bi-partisan support for that one, coupled with the "Patriot Act' we are now truly a police state. In CA they beat a homeless man to death, in Florida, they pepper-sprayed a man to death, after tying him to a chair and...not one cop has gone to jail...The police in Fargo, ND, a hotbed of terrorist activity, has been given millions of Homeland Security money which they used to equip themselves with the finest military weaponry, including a bradley.
@mygirl1 You've been fed an anti-Obama lie, stop spreading it:
This is the TRUTH about NDAA Laws- do not listen to the LIES one either side. The US may NOT hold citizens indefinitely, period!
Hate to break it to you mygirl1, but anti-trust is correct.
The powered and privileged have been eroding our rights slowly over the last 40 years and now we are the frog in the pot of water realizing that the water had reached its boiling point a while ago.
To reverse this problem will take a lot of time and effort. I only pray that we have the will and resolve to.
anti-trust proponent You are paranoid or delusional. Time to take your medication.
mygirl1 Well over 200 police officers and thousands of military people died last year to protect your right to say what you just said. If it wasn't for the police and military, you would not be able to berate the few who did wrong or erred. What dirty dark secrets are you hiding from us?
You want to look for another country where you can march and not get into trouble? Try Italy with its corruption. Try France whose bonds just took another hit. Try England that uses water cannons.
Frankly you sound just like a big mouth who wants to stir up trouble. Get a minimum wage job, learn from the bottom up and go to school nights. I did it. I started working part time after school at 12. I was glad to get the $1.00 an hour for cleaning and unpacking boxes.
anti-trust proponent Please do some studying and reading about companies that join or are acquired. If you do research which you have not, most have been unsuccessful and the end result has been spin offs or the acquired companies are sold off to other companies that are better prepared to partner with them and produce profits.
Time for you to get a job and save some money and go to night school to get an education.
Hauser Aspen You mean you don't have the intelligence of a frog to jump out of the pot when the water starting getting hot???? You have to wait until the water got to the boiling point and you became frog stew? Typical occupier mentality.
So here we have another irrational statement. It's all or nothing right? The police are either corrupt or good? Right? Please ... These people along with millions of others have fought to protect our constitution and their country. These corrupt poliece that bare no resemblence to those that gave their life along with the prosecutor defile their sacrifice by blatently ingnoring the principles this nation was built on. The real question is why are you so anxious to throw away everything these people died for? What dark secrets are you hiding from us?
wilsonaide -
From your first comment, you have obviously painted yourself as paid hack for the Koch brothers and Fox News. Of course, what with your mediocre and unimaginatively dull, uninspired, unoriginal writing, you must be delighted with yourself in having the aforementioned meet your demands to pay you as much as $2.00 for your efforts.
wilsonaide I hope your old because all of your post replies to others related to freedoms in America, I declare you legally blind. America is dead. Your living in the illusion of the America that once was.
Actually they can, read the law yourself. It says so! Don't simply read parts that agree with you and say "see, they can't hold us!" The law is purposefully vague and contains self-contradictory language that will allow interpretation...interpretation that WILL lead to indefinite detention of U.S. citizens without haebeus corpus or trial!
Besides, let's try an exercise in logic here...they can assasinate you without due process but not detain us indefinitely? Seriously?!?! Is this your enlightened pro-Obama inspite of all tyrannical neoconservative policies opinion? Wake up, before you cheerlead for anymore fascism. Both Parties are neocons aka fascists.
Chick Di Vito and his Jazz Band in Germany Late August 1939. Written by Jasper Mc Lain lead Trumpet; talking about the German version of a “lynching” with some members of the band. Unabridged…….
Chick: Is it possible to have an intelligent conversation about the likelihood of a police state in America without mentioning: Himmler, Hitler, Heydrich, the Diffenbaken sisters, Eva Braun, and Coco Chanel. It has been done so many times it has become boring.
George: Let’s try for some new news on the topic OK? Something that doesn’t draw its insight from the past, but from new uncovered newsreel from the recent present. This is their Germany. This is their time, the new Riech. This is their leader lying to his girlfriend with a straight face as he goes off to Oberzalberg with dem strange bitches for a long weekend.
Miles: If he gets caught, he’s gonna try and use the party and national secrecy to cover his ass. This is happening now, in our streets and this fascist pig is gearing up to take his whors here, and @!$%# the @!$%# out of dem once he gets the schaps delivered.
Butch: Do you remember what your grand pappy told you what a bitch @!$%#in’was? Does it sound to you like the little white chicks ass is fallin’off? @!$%# these boys are just warmin’ up. Dose sumbody got a rope round they neck? No! Then they ain’t no lynchin’ goin’ down in dis here place.
Dixie: Dit some brother hep another brother get away fum the mob, No. den dat charge is a fraudulent penis. If he not runnin’ away, and dey wern’t heping him run away; den dey mus been bringing im back to the encampment on the grounds of Los Angeles' City Hall. Where’d he’d ben sleepin’ wit dat white Jew girl Barbra Winestein. Is dat what dis is all about? Cause she got mustard on her cooch, is dat it?
wilsonaide account started 1/2012, so it appears s/he may either be a troll or a rereg., especially with all of the outlandish COH violations.
DNFTT
Charge them with any arcane law to try to stop their FREE SPEECH. The Gestapo are alive and well in U.S. Police agencies and Prosecutors offices. The courts will throw this one out in a heartbeat and the persecuted should seek civil damages in the millions. I don't care if people like the 'Occupiers' or not. They are protected by their First Amendment Rights like every other American.
The Supreme Court gives the store away to the rich corporate enablers allowing them to be "people too." Then you have the Gestapo Police agencies detaining AMERICAN CITIZENS with some frivolous arcane law to stop their protesting and Free Speech.
Scott Anodam-1326159. You have mis-read your quote. This happens quite often in politico and legal mumbo jumbo, as it is written in such a way as to disguise. You should be upset, for what BOTH sides have written and passed.
Don't be in such a hurry to buy into one side or the other without understanding what YOU read.
Their laws may not affect you now, but if you or they ever change their political agenda, you will be next.
wilsonaide, I know you just woke up from a 100 year coma, but things have changed in America. The American peoples rights are slowly being taken away.
BTW, no soldier or police officer died fighting for my freedom in a VERY long time. I admire and support our police and armed forces, but thinking they are protecting our freedom, democracy or liberty is a complete falsehood.
wilsonaide, I know you just woke up from a 100 year coma, but things have changed in America. The American peoples rights are slowly being taken away.
BTW, no soldier or police officer died fighting for my freedom in a VERY long time. I admire and support our police and armed forces, but thinking they are protecting our freedom, democracy or liberty is a complete falsehood.
Wilsonaide is just trolling today...Probably a 12yo at home his mommys house nice and safe and secure. Has never worked a day in his life. all wide eyed and innocent
Yep, abuse is legal.
This is so wrong. They better be careful about this or we will all be "lynching". Seems they will do anything to quiet the masses. The only good thing about it is in jail you will have a roof over your head and meals. Most of us are struggling just for that anymore.
Sounds like the peasants must be silenced by any and all means possible. Still, there is power in numbers and stuff like this just gives OWS more publicity to further their cause.
The irony here is that it's the liberal states that are enforcing these big brother type laws. At the end of the day these demonstrators should be working and helping the economy! Rich kids who have time protesting should know better - it wouldn't hurt for them to experience some of the hardships of life.
John, you are clueless or willfully ignorant about what is going on, but feel free to delude yourself.
Um, John... rich and poor kids alike can't find jobs, and neither can a lot of their parents. What fluffy little pink cloud do you live on?
"demonstrators should be working and helping the economy"
This guy probably isn't helping the economy too much but he sure is helping people that are hurt by the economy. Read the article. This guy has done more for people than just about anyone on this board.
John, It shows that you watch Faux News as to who, and what comprises, the occupy movement! The rich kids are all to busy driving their new Porche's around while using daddies lear jet to go to Fiji! These people are from all walks of life and in every age bracket! You should really research what they are about before you go and pass off a re-packaged Faux News version through your posts!
When one person in Monopoly has all the cash and properties, the game is over! But in this case, it is the 1% who represent the game over winner!
they are trying to silence the voice of the people. sounds like we have returned to the bad old days when the law was used to crush and silence the people.... stand up! speak out! OCCUPY!!!
Abby, you forgot the most important thing: Stand up! Speak out! Have something important to say. Otherwise, Shut up! Go home! Rub one out!
Larry
You my friend have not a clue. Professional protesters? Lets see you prove that.
This bs about not having to drive to work, tell that to all the working protesters.
“If a free society cannot help the many who are poor,
it cannot save the few who are rich.”
– John F. Kennedy in his inaugural address, January 1961
“We do not have time for this kind of silliness.”
– Barack Obama in a press conference at the White House
about the release of his long-form birth certificate, April 27, 2011
Amazing what we achieved in 50 years!
Occupy the Courts Jan. 20th:
http://occupywallst.org/article/j20-occupy-courts-nationwide-san-francisco-occupy-/
I 'm glad to see these OWS brats and Anarchists are being shut down.
How's your job at Goldman?
Loser alert!
This country was built by, and continues to evolve because of, the courageous non-conformists who refuse to be the sheeple of the intellectually and morally lazy!!
Troll..lol.
hek211 says "I 'm glad to see these OWS brats and Anarchists are being shut down."
That's because you're a communist.
Nationalist scum!..lol.
Patriots are anti-nationalist, in case you weren't aware.
Your precious state is collapsing, and soon anarchism will be the only viable peaceful philosophy mankind has left.
Now if we can just get those idiot kids who break windows and act violently to realize property isn't theft (meme) and anarchism is a philosophy about anti-coercion not coercing people into chaos. Then we can get rid of your stupid label that anarchy equals chaos, violence, lawlessness, and no heirarchy (all memes of BS).
It means spontaneous order, non-violence unless it's DIRECT self defense (and some are even pascifsts), natural law (harm and fraud are coercions and therefore not permitted to be perpetrated on unwilling victims), and voluntary organization (which includes, if so willing, voluntary heirarchy and other voluntary activities that might harm you like drug use, S&M sex, boxing, etc.).
ProIndividual, you’re not very bright are you? Patriot and a nationalist are synonymous.
Thank you for playing.
you can sure hear the ignorance of some people who assume protestor don't have job, no wait, that's the new right wing talking point.
Pleasee inform us all of what job you can hold and spend months out on the streets protesting? Plus of course this supposeded position would have to be paying you while you are out protesting and "not doing yoru job" Also if there really are jobs like this in this country no wonder corporations are sending their work to China...they need to have their product made. I really wonder how many of these protestors have done a days work over the last several months. IE: The poster who lost a 6 figure income positon and his house. If your making 6 figures he probably bought a way to expensive house with exorbitant payments. So you overspent...not my fault or anyone elses. Take some responsibility America.
Marlo are you really this stupid are do you just act like it. Not everyone in the movement stays there all the time. Many come down after they work or on their days off. And NO ONE is being paid to not work by their employer while they are protesting. And making comments about someone you don't even know and jumping to conclusion as to how they got into their predicament just makes you look like an asshat.
Marlo, You are an ignorant dupe of the 1%. I am sick of hearing that crap about "get a job." I had one for 45 years and served my country for 3. I and my wife are two of the occupiers in my city. You get the drift yet? We are RETIRED. Most of the PART TIME protestors in my city have at least one job and most have 2 because 1 job will not support you. Most of the rest are full time students with part time jobs. We are concerned enough to give a crap unlike you and we are trying to save our nation from the police state that you seem to love and the 1% that rule not only our country but many others as well. You need to wake up before they come and take you away as well. What pray tell have YOU done for your country lately?
Ed, are you really that dense? Marlo’s first sentence was pure, hot, sarcasm. Read it again Ed. Can you feel it dripping this time? Imagine that the sarcasm is McIlhenny’s hot sauce, and every time a drops hits the concrete, it sizzles and burns a hole three inches down, and smolders like hell itself is opening up. “Pleasee inform us all of what job you can hold and spend months out on the streets protesting?”
Imagine Marlo as Lana Turner in The Postman Always Rings Twice. Sultry, sweaty, sexy, she wants it Ed, and she want you to give it to her, but you’re a protester Ed. You’re handing out leaflets; you’re chanting…cumbia lord…cumbia. She’s mocking you Ed. Goody-two-shoes- Ed the proprietor of a roadside restaurant, and part time protester. “Plus of course this supposeded position would have to be paying you while you are out protesting and "not doing yor job". Marlo couldn’t care less if the protestors “come down” after work, or on their days off. Like the moron who lost a six figure job and a nice home, just so he could “come down” and protest. To her that guy was just the biggest jerk in the world. You’re not going to change her mind Ed; why waste your time? And it wasn’t the first time some idiot made a huge financial sacrifice to do something so completely and totally useless. Their names won’t live in infamy. Their names will live in absurdity. They are the real fools of the world. They had the tools to make some real changes, but the didn’t know how. Their money couldn’t buy them smarts.
Moreno, here's something else the right wing can talk about: Sentences that begin with capital letters, and the letter -S- at the end of protester. When you can wrap your pea sized brain around that, then you can talk about the ignorance of others. Until then, you’re just another socialist hypocrite, so stfu.
Right wing nazi scum are getting desperate .
What Administration is in office? What President just signed NDAA? Who is going to sign SOPA?
You might want to wake up and realize both wings are fascists.
Ha Ha Ha , Where are the Wall Street Traders that stole all of the 99% of American's money and transfered it to the 1% of Corporate American's Bank Accounts? Notice that all of the Fox News Commentators are quick to give their jaded , paid for views, against the OWS protestors. Fools that they are. They're letting the Constitution of the United States get trampled on by Corporate Greed. Be very careful ,what goes around comes around.
You sir, are part of the MOD Squad.
(M)indless (O)bama (D)rone.
That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
To: Julio Secada- You must be part of the 1% mouthpieces. Who get paid good money to do bad deeds . Did you come over on the Mariel boat lift?
As soon the memes are used (1% or 99%) most people tune you out. It's just as bad of an ad hominem as what he's using to simply equate another opinion to "1% mouthpieces". It's like waving a flag that says "I lose, you win, poopyhead".
You both FAIL.
I am glad my life is almost over. This country and world are getting too screwed up.
Strange, I feel that way from time to time as well. Worry for the children & grandchildren though. They face a b!+@# of a world.................
You're both lucky - I have to put up with at least 40 more years of this crap.
Sigh. I hear you and feel the same way, but before I check out I and my wife are doing one last thing for our country by being occupiers. It ain't easy camping outside in sub zero weather at our ages, but we are doing it nevertheless because it is something we both believe in. The city has served us an eviction notice and refused us a permit to erect our winter tent that would enable us to have a bit more comfort due to being blackmailed by wealthy locals who oppose us. They told the city that they would donate money to renovate the mall we camp on if they kick us out, and they caved. First amendment be dammed I guess. It's a sad day for our nation.
If you want to stop having this happen every 200 years or so (The Republic becomes the Empire, collapses and becomes the Republic, which becomes the Empire, ad nauseum)...maybe consider ending that cycle and abolishing the state (compulsory government as opposed to voluntary government).
Just a thought.
No thanks. Somalia, etcetera.
Been there. Done that. Doesn't ever work. Ever.
"one in four works in law enforcement", yet only 8% (1 in 12) of working americans work in some form of government job (including state, local and military)
I call bullsh!t...fatherchrisl
Lynching? What Ever!
Anyway, the mouthpieces of the right are having a field day as usual.
OWS. Simmer down. Get a grip. Be proactive. What the right wing fears the most is the truth and the vote. The truth they will twist. The vote they will try to steal. And, if they do, that, is an act of war!
Oh and thats why your POS obama involved America into the Lybian and urgunda wars, because it was a real President Bush's fault!!!!! Also why is it that when anyone who tells the truth about the biggest failure in American history (your POS Obama) they are racist or neocon? Like the truth about your POS Obama spending and wasting more money than any other president combined in less than three years, oops that right it was president bush's fault, what about that socialistic Obamacare, oh yeah again that was President Bush's fault even though not one republican voted for it!!!! And you want to talk about voting, how about those losers pink Imean black panthers preventing people from voting or the dead voting for your POS Obama? Oh thats right, that was President Bush's fault again!!!! Before you spew false information at least come close to tellinbg the truth you POS Obama jock sniffing bafoon!!!!!
@murfr5: you, sir, are a complete buffoon. BUSH is the worst president EVER, and you're crying in your beer about Obama. It's easy to see why: you're still embarrassed over the BUSH fiasco, and in a horrible, terrible, embarrassing attempt, you're trying to make Obama the boogyman. Niiiiiiiiiiiiiice tryyyyyyyyyy, loser. The POS is you, murfr5, for being a complete failure and not even knowing it.
murf? You are such a mature individual. I'm sure the name-calling has impressed all the readers who actually bothered to read your whole rant..lol.
Interesting how all the Obama supporters seem to either ignore or not understand what Obama accomplished by signing NDAA into law. Little bit of head-in-sand, perhaps?
Murfr5, I'm assuming that "Lybian" refers to Libya (and Libyans), but where is Urgunda? And does it have dinosaurs?
Blames the fascist right, ignores the fascism of the left.
Mygirl1 is exactly right.
NDAA was passed by 537 people...not just one person....
Let's cut the crap of singling out obama for what it took 537 traitors too do.
(537 = congress+senate+whitehouse)
murfr5, Keith-3791199, you're each suspended for a day for violating #1 of the Code of Honor.
I just have one thing to say that ALL the governments, from local towns to Washington DC, should know:
R E M E M B E R - K E N T - S T A T E !!!
It's not 1970 anymore, and we don't have Nixxon in the White House commanding a drafted army. We are empowered and we VOTE in numbers. Big numbers. Big-ass mfking numbers. Are you guys hearing this?
Better not mess with us Boomers or you'll find your own asses out of a job.
I think you underestimate the brainwashed nationalists in the military willing to gut us all in the street for the government (not the country). I respect the military who are patriots...but many I speak to can't wait to lock up protestors because in their brainwashed minds anyone who stands against the government, no matter how evil that government gets, is a traitor. They will NEVER see fault as long as it's our government doing it.
Nazis thought they were patriots too.
You know what most people don't "get" is that the use of trumped up charges to keep people from expressing their opinion) is the worst crime the goverment can impose. It is no different than China arresting people for an unpopular opinion. "Lynching?" Really? That is the scary thing. But, as soon as we fought for our freedoms we started trying to get congress to take them away from us. There ought to be righteous indignation about a government that tries to squelch the freedom to speak your mind through made up charges. If they riot and commit crimes, charge them with them, but "lynching?" As Ben Franklin said those who will give up little liberty for a little security lose both and deserve neither.
What a sad day when the states openly deny freedom of speech by using laws designed for something else. California is usually a leader in civil rights. Today it looks like they're becoming just as shameless as some of those southern states that thinks civil rights are only for certain class or political ideology. If I'm ever on a court that is trying people accused of laws like this that are designed to deny freedom of speech, I'll acquit them faster than they can bring them in.
WOW! That POS Obama is supporting those occupiers too, talk about oxymoron minus the oxy part! HAHAHAHAHA This just proves even more that POS Obama is a total FAILURE and that makes those who still wants him to serve another 4 years total LOSERS!!!!!!!!!!!
He supports and tolerates them for one reason only.
Potential votes.
WOW! That POS Obama is supporting those occupiers too, talk about oxymoron minus the oxy part!
You have no evidence to support this.
You have the evidence.
He has not lifted one finger to stop this crap.
Anything else you need genius?
Add 2 and 2 for me.
Hey Muffy, isn't it time for your shift at Walmart???
I really am sorry for you. Apparently your parents didn't teach you that name-calling only makes you look bad.
To..murfr 5"""
Funny never seen no pro Obama signs at the OWS protests...
To Viewer """
What ...?
Viewer_Ready
Says" Obama has not lifted one finger to stop this crap."
Why should he we have a constitutional right to protest.
You bitch he is a Socialist but then bitch he doesn't silent protesters.
Very odd.
He has not lifted one finger to stop this crap.
You really have no clue what the President's job is do you?
I'll give you a hint, it involves this document called The Constitution of the United States of America. In particular, read the first amendment, it's pretty clear where this country's government stands on protest. So short of him politely requesting that people don't protest, he doesn't have the power to do anything about it.
Where do you think this is, China?
Furthermore, when did not saying something about it meant you supported it? That reasoning goes like if you didn't say anything about murdering people you must be pro murder.
Cool.
Anything to get these losers off the streets so the some of us who work can walk unimpeded.
A partial list of stats, and their origin....
1. The median gross, inflation-adjusted income of American males in 1968 was $32,137. In 2010? $32, 137 (U.S. Census, Sept. 2011 release)
2. From 1980 to 2005, more than 80% of the total increase in Americans' income went to the top 1% (Slate Sept. 2010).
3. In 2010, CEO at the nation's 299 large3st companies earned an average of $11.4 million in total pay. 343 times more than a typical American workers. In 1980, CEOs of these companies received 42 times the pay of their average worker (CNN Money April 2011)
4. Change in median household wealth of white families since 2005? Minus 16%. Hispanics? minus 66% (Pew Research Center Social and Demographic Trends project.)
5. The upper 1% of Americans account fornearly a quarter of the nation's income and control 40% of all US wealth. 25 years ago, it was 12% and 33%. (Joseph E. Stiglitz, May 2011 Vanity Fair)
6. The top 1% have seen their incomes rise 18% over the past decade. Those in the Middle have seen incomes fall. (Joseph E. Stiglitz, May 2011 Vanity Fair)
7. In 2010, median CEO pay jumped 27% while workers in private industry saw theirs grow by 2.1% (USA TODAY analysis, April 2011.)
8. Income inequality is more severe in the US than it is in nearly all of West Africa, Europe, North Africa and Asia. (The Atlantic, Sept. 2011)
Just a few nuggets out there. Hope OWS gets good attendance come Spring and Summer - maybe wait until exams are done, toward end of June. I'd pay for my college kids to go protest in DC.
do people actually know what they're protesting?. people dont like their social status? instead of blaming corporations and the government, why dont they start blaming themselves and do something about it. dont have a job? go to college and get a degree so u have a better chance among others. these idiots tried to blockade the docks of San Fransico, who did they hurt more, the owners of the docks, or the common folks who work the docks for a living?. take a look around, these people who own corporations or or CEO's of fortune 500 companys?, they all started at the bottom and worked their way up. what ever happpened to hard work? i think these idiots tend to forget that they're the ones who voted for these officials into office, now they're mad that the people they voted for havent come through on their promises. cant find a job. theres jobs out there, they may not be the ones you like, but its a job and it supports your family. where did this sense of entitlement come from? that everything should be handed to you on a silver platter, that you dont have to work for anything anymore?.....thats were this country has gone wrong, too many people expect things instead of working for it, and if they dont get what they want, they throw a hissy fit. this country lives off of the strength of the Americans, not the self pity of a few liberals
What's the change in gov't pay and pensions versus the "common man" who pays their salaries & benefits? I'd protest gov't salaries and unfunded pensions before any CEO. We pay their salaries directly!
@Adam Labarr - You're an idiot.
You do have a point about one thing: Americans are far too unwilling to take menial jobs. I know there are plenty of them open here in Alabama since the racists kicked all the illegal immigrants out.
There are plenty of jobs out there that only require a trade-craft (not to be confused with WoW) to start working. It's not the government's fault they over-educated themselves to do manual labor. They want to protest something outside of Washington? How about protesting the collegiate system that requires you to take classes that you don't need to perform a regular job. These classes do nothing but pay for professors to keep their kooshy jobs and give them an inflated purpose in life. outside of the medical, scientific and accounting career fields who really uses collage level algebra? Nobody, even in the fields i named it's not a daily use, yet EVERYONE that wants to attend college for ANY degree must have or take a College level algebra class. It's not tuition that goes up, it's the teacher's salaries. And the fact that classes are erroneously required for degrees that are used in careers that don't need that knowledge is just a slap in the face to the student body. The college degree system needs an overhaul before students can see a break in tuition. BTW, that will never happen unless the system collapses and has to be rebuilt anyway.
Where?
And -- 20 years ago we were all told get a college degree because we're shipping the manufacturing jobs out so we can replace them with better high-paying jobs.
The people telling us this were the people in charge. Who knew. It's most @!$%#ING DEFINITELY THEIR @!$%#ING FAULT!