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Courtesy of the Chen family
Pvt. Danny Chen, left, with his mother, Su Zhen Chen, at his graduation from basic training.
The first soldier to face legal proceedings in the death of a Chinese-American GI believed to have committed suicide in Afghanistan after allegedly being hazed by his fellow troops may not face the toughest charge the Army had sought of involuntary manslaughter.
The Article 32 hearing for Spc. Ryan Offutt, a 32-year old infantryman from Greenville, Penn., into the death of Pvt. Danny Chen, finished Sunday, Sgt. 1st Class Alan G. Davis, an Army spokesman, said in an email.
The investigating officer recommended forwarding all charges to court-martial, except for the manslaughter charge, Davis said, later noting that the charge was not dropped but the officer "recommended not moving forward" on it "because he believed that insufficient evidence was presented at the hearing to justify" proceeding with it.
Eight soldiers, including Offutt, have been charged in connection with the death of Chen, 19, who died of an apparent self-inflicted gunshot wound on Oct. 3. Five of them were charged with involuntary manslaughter and negligent homicide, thought to be the first time such charges have been brought in this type of case, according to experts on hazing and on the military legal system.
The Article 32 hearings, which will determine whether there was enough evidence for a court-martial against the men, will run through about Feb. 20 at Kandahar Air Field in Afghanistan. The charges against Offutt that the investigating officer recommended be forwarded to court-martial include maltreatment, assault consummated by battery, reckless endangerment and negligent homicide.
The maximum punishment for involuntary manslaughter is 10 years and a dishonorable discharge, while negligent homicide is a dishonorable discharge and three years.
Grover Baxley, a former member of the U.S. Air Force Judge Advocate General (JAG) Corps, noted that the investigating officer's recommendation was "just that - a recommendation."
"The Convening Authority can follow or ignore that advice, in whole or in part, as he or she decides. As a result, you may still see the government refer all the charges, including the manslaughter charge, to a court-martial," Baxley wrote in an e-mail. "Alternatively, even though the Investigating Officer recommended going forward on the majority of the charges, the Convening Authority could still drop all the charges at this point, though I don't think that's likely."
Asian-American advocates and the family told Army officials during a meeting in early January that they did not want the proceedings to take place overseas, citing the need for transparency and access, and have said the toughest charges should not be dropped.
“While the negligent homicide charge is recommended, we are extremely disappointed that the manslaughter charge is not," Elizabeth OuYang, New York branch president of OCA, a national civil rights organization serving Asian Pacific Americans, said in a statement. "The family and the community are not able to see what is happening in these hearings taking place in Afghanistan - the Army has the ability to and should televise these hearings."
The commander of the 1st Stryker Brigade Combat Team, 25th Infantry Division will consider the recommendations of the investigating officer in determining whether to forward the charges against Offutt to the Army's Regional Command-South commander for final disposition, Davis said.
Chen was found dead at a guard tower with his rifle lying next to him at Combat Outpost Palace in the Panjwa'i district of Kandahar province in southern Afghanistan.
According to investigators from the Regional Command-South, OuYang said, almost immediately after he arrived in mid-August, Chen, the only Chinese-American in his platoon, was required to do exercises that within a few days crossed over to alleged abuse. Some of it was inflicted by one soldier and some by a group of them, the investigators said.
Investigators found evidence that the platoon sergeant and the platoon leader -- the platoon's top two leaders -- were aware of an attack on Chen on Sept. 27 and chose not to report it, OuYang said.
The Army's Criminal Investigation Command said Monday that its investigation into Chen's death was not complete.
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Related stories on msnbc.com:
- Hearings set in Chinese-American soldier's alleged hazing death
- Army reveals details of alleged hazing of Chinese-American soldier
- Experts: Harshest charges in Asian-American GI's death may not stick
- Family of Chinese-American soldier want GIs tried in U.S.
- Inside the industry of inmate-staffed call centers
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queue the outrage from the "guilty until proven innocent" culture of irony that is the general population in america.
I do not know who did what, to this young man, but I agree that any hearings should be held here. The family believes there was discrimination aginst there loved one that was so bad, he took his own life. They deserve to KNOW what happend. IF the officers in charge participated and/or ignored the alleged acts, I do not want them in the armed forces. IF they treated an other American that badly, God only knows what they would do to any of the local citizens, in a foreign country. IF they are proven guilty of the charges, they deserve to be punished!
This was the platoon sergeant's fault all the way. I was a platoon sergeant in an infantry company for a lot of years and never tolerated hazing. Sure there are soldiers that have difficulty adjusting, and it is the platoon sergeant's responsibility and the responsibility of his squad leader to help that soldier figure out his place and how he can make life work for him. If I couldn't succeed, then I took the soldier to my platoon leader, my first sergeant, and my company commander and told them that I was unable to train the soldier and he needed to be somewhere else. Nobody ever questioned me about it. It didn't happen very often, but it did happen.
This kid's death is a tragedy of the first order, and his squadmates and everybody in his chain of command needs to be held accountable. Courts-martial for those involved, and invite everbody in his chain of command, from his platoon leader to his battalion commander, to consider life as a civilian. They sure can't hack it in the Army.
Rock51
If the accusations are true.... shameful. Rest in peace young man.... sad!
EXERCISES in an INFANTRY unit in a COMBAT deployed posture as excessive and abuse??? Excuse me while I vomit. Want to know what really happened, talk to some grunts of the 25th Inf Div STRYKER unit at Scofield Barracks, HI. I know people who have, and it is ALSO a unit that I once served in. Bottom line, Chen was ill-suited to be in the infantry, was a slacker in a forward deployed unit, shammed on guard duty, couldn't adjust to the rigors of existence in a combat zone, and killed himself. END OF STORY! If every soldier that didn't want to defend the field at Gettsyburg, cross the Rhine, parachute into Normandy, secure the Chosin in Korea, Combat Assault to LZ Xray, drive their tank across 23 Hastings, or kill the Taliban in Afganistan were given a free ticket to the rear because they couldn't take being made fun of or didn't like their fellow soldiers, the USA would NOT be a country but a vassel state of someone like Adolph Hitler. The sooner idiots stop this politically correct BS that tries to make the military appear a copy of an undergraduate learning enviornment or extension of high school, with the same social constraints that rule life in these institutions, the faster we will start winning wars. It may sound cruel, but Chen had numerous options in todays PC military to get off his post; he could have claimed combat stress, he could have feigned suicidal ideation, he could have grabbed the genitals of a fellow soldier etc etc. for ALL of these in todays military will get you an immediate ticket to a schrink or advocate in the rear. Any grunt that has EVER served in a war knows that when you are in combat, slackers only get so many chances before things "resolve" themself one way or another. Better he blew his brains out than getting his whole team killed because of his apparent inabilty to soldier. I feel for his family, but he wasn't the first soldier in the history of this nation that took a one way ticket out of war, and he won't be the last. It is team cohesiveness that is critical to combat survival, not the individual, and when one guy threatens the morale, intimacy, and combat efficacy of his team, he MUST be removed voluntarily, or involuntarly from the team. If anything his chain of command missed the boat on perhaps chucking Chen to the rear before he took the M4 ticket out, but sometimes, being concerned about the ability to repel enemy attacks and keep alive get in the way things prioritizng the transport of unhappy soldiers out of the unit. Unlike Donald Trump, you can't always FIRE someone in a war that can't do their job. Enough said.
JP: Tell us how you really feel.... (jeepers) You're an angry person... I relate, but I still have compassion for this young man. Maybe you need to be blessed with misfortune to the point of humility.....
JP- It's funny, A Few Good Men was on TV yesterday and you sound EXACTLY like Nicholson's character. First of all, it seems he was given ADDITIONAL exercises that no one else had to complete. I'm sure the normal, albeit strenuous exercises were not a part of the "abuse" claimed. Also, there's a difference between "not liking your fellow soldiers" and being abused. Oh, he wouldn't have to "feign suicidal ideation" as he was obviously HAVING GENUINE suicidal ideation, if you couldn't tell from his SUICIDE. You sound like you would have done everything possible to drive this man to suicide instead of trying to help him out. If he was a weak link, then fine, find him something else to do or try to help him get better. But driving him to suicide?? REALLY? THAT is an acceptable option? I didn't realize that it was an option at all! As an alleged former soldier yourself, it seems really strange that you have no sympathy for this man at all. Aren't you guys supposed to stick together and protect each other? Isn't that what soldiers are called to do? If these allegations are true, these men are dispicable excuses for soldiers.
Allielcea: Thank you.... glad to see a level headed response.
Fed Up- Thanks, glad to know I'm appreciated. Doesn't he sound like Nicholson, though? I felt like I was watching the movie again! "YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!" It's crazy! Just because someone's weaker, we can haze them to death? That's logical...
Allielcea: Kind of reminded me of a wannabe Barnes from Platoon.... A real heart breaker and life taker.... (jeepers). Always with the macho macheesemo.... good grief. :(
JP - when you have a weak link you either work on making it stronger (which is preferable in any team), or you try to remove it. There are proper channels in US military to remove weak links - driving them to a suicide (or shooting them in the back) is not one of them. Such behavior is conduct unbecoming of a soldier - if you do not see that, I pity you.
And did JP know Pvt Chen personally? Was he in the same unit? How does he know that Pvt Chen was a slacker? Or is he also heaping abuse on Pvt Chen?
JP your anger issues need to be addressed. I may not have severed, but my family, most of them have. You are a heartless person and too bad you haven't had a humbling experience yet. I hope they all get charged as deserved. No one should be driven to suicide, nor killed by their fellow soldiers. His blood is still on their hands.
Shameful. No wonder some men really struggle because I'm sure if they say something they'll be poked fun at and in the end, maybe this is what happens to the men and women who return from war. Compassion, it's defiantly missing in some.
JP - you have no more talked to anyone in that unit than I have. And, you have no inside information. The man was harassed to a point he took his own life. For a group that is supposed to work together and have each other's back - this is unacceptable. No high ranking military are condoning their actions - instead condemning them. Perhaps you should just go back to all your hatred and lack of tolerance for those not as bigoted as yourself. Pathetic!
This is an intriguing puzzle, in part because it makes absolutely no sense and by every measure appears to be a bit beyond illogical . . .
I did some research via web searches in an effort to find some actual information, but aside from a virtual festival of nearly identical "news reports" where different activists are claiming the entire thing was a matter of a Chinese-American being "hazed" (which makes no sense to me), all I found was a reference to Pvt. Chen forgetting to turn-off the hot water after taking a shower and another reference that indicated Pvt. Chen reported for guard duty without a full water canteen and a helmet . . .
I simply cannot imagine any reason for anyone to "haze" a soldier for being Chinese-American. If anything, I think the more likely presumption is that such folks are skilled in martial arts, hence should be assets rather than liabilities in a war zone . . .
And while there probably is a bit "hazing" when someone first arrives, I think that it usually ends within a few days, but in this instance it appears to have continued for over three months, which is an entirely different matter . . .
As I always do, I reserve judgement until more information becomes available, but based on what I was able to find, it is troubling that someone who apparently cannot remember to turn-off the hot water; to fill his water canteen; and to bring a helmet to guard duty actually was deployed in a war zone . . .
If the Army continues to give recruits intelligence tests, then I certainly would like to know the results of Pvt. Chen's intelligence tests . . .
In other words, based on the information I have found so far, I am getting a Forrest Gump vibe, and while sending Forrest Gump into a war zone works in the movies, I think it is a bad idea in the real world . . .
If a soldier cannot remember to wear his helmet, then I am inclined to suggest that the alleged "hazing" was more along the lines of misguided self-protection from being put into danger by a dimwit, and if this is the case, then the injustice was done by a higher ranked officer long before Pvt. Chen arrived in Afghanistan, really . . .
Really! :-o
Let's face facts, here, folks - everyone reading about and commenting on this story (including me) knows very few facts and but smidgens of allegations. It is also clear, however, that certain elements within the Asian-American community are determined to make this into a "cause celebre' " because of PFC Chen's race, which kind of extraneous pressure and political agenda always gives me a bit of a pause.
SO, I don't know what went on (and neither do any of you, barring only whatever personal knowledge of the matter "JP" may actually have), but, thus far, very little in this case makes sense and, relying on my own military experience, I'm not entirely sure but what I don't agree, somewhat, with JP's positions. I do know that the original allegations of "hazing" and "tormenting" and "racial harassment" have not, thus far, proven out and now we are seeing the allegations "adjusted" to conform to the latest theory. What I sense is a "railroading" of the soldiers accused, precisely because of public pressure by the Asian-American community. The sad reality, however, is that soldiers, especially young ones on their first deployment to a miserable and hostile environment, sometimes commit suicide and not every such suicide warrants a criminal investigation (let alone any presumption of "manslaughter").
IF it turns out that there was misbehavior, then I'm all for punishing the guilty, but this whole case seems riddled with holes and inconsistencies. Let me suggest that we hold our judgments until such time as we actually hear the facts.
I think 'JP' spent too much time in his unit's orderly room reading about real soldiers. Go have another brew at the legion with the other REMF story-tellers. What a joke.
Thank you for speaking the TRUTH! The truth of the matter is that he should have never graduated OSUT!! But now it is the kinder, gentler Infantry!!! No yelling or pushing...mentoring instead!! It changed during the CLINTON years because of attrition. NOW we send those who could NEVER had made it through the rigors of OSUT to COMBAT ZONES!!!
Here is the TRUTH!!! The unit deployed to Palace with 40 by the time Chen arrived they were down to roughly 25.....where did the others go??? IED's!!! The day he arrived a 2 soldiers were KIA three days apart in their Area of Operation!!! Their daily routine was FOOT PATROL every single day for at least 12 hours in 130 degree plus temps carrying 70lb rucks plus weapons and ammo!!! He could not carry a 20lb sand bag!!! How was he going to carry a fellow wounded soldier??? EVERYTHING they had him do was in the Army INFANTRY Training Manual!!! He should have been able to master EVERY task in it but he couldn't. THEY NEEDED HIM TO PERFORM AS A SOLDIER!!! After 40 days he could not even remember to bring his freaking helmet and water to the guard station!!!! OMG, they were attacked DAILY by TALIBAN!!!! I would love to ask these meme's would it have been ok for the Black, White, Puerto Rican, Jewish, Guatemalan, and Mexican's to be killed because he could not hold his own??? Being called Jackie Chen was enough to make him take his life?????? OMG!! He was in a war zone where every single day DEATH AND LOSS OF LIMB was a FACT OF LIFE!!!! He let them down, not the other way around!!!
And the way this story had been reported has been disgusting.....talk about trying to cram 10lbs of sh!!t in a 5lb bag.......those atrocious names did not take place at Palace they were at Benning......but that is not as sensational is it!!!!
And another tidbit! It is insulting that he was awarded a Bronze Star!!! He was NOT brave and he NEVER stepped foot outside of the wire!!!!
Wow BlueStarMom...nice to hear from someone who has obviously been to Afghanistan. In case you didn't know...that was sarcasm. Do you even know how cold it is in Kandahar right now? 130 degree heat?? I just got back from there, and it was cold as Santa's balls.
And where do you get off judging the quality of a Soldier's service? Did you know the guy? Had you ever spoken to him or the others in his unit for you to say he wasn't brave?
For whatever reason this kid had the courage to volunteer to serve his country and ungrateful @!$%#s like you, and it seriously pisses me off when civilians like you have the nerve to judge any of us.
Honestly it would serve you right if all of us just said f@#! it and left people like you defenseless.
Or better yet why don't you join the army...then you'll have the right to judge a soldier.
Predictably , the comments here are split right along the party line.
The nasty racist rightie nationalist conervative poos defending the soldiers who hazed a fellow soldier to death....
and the educated, compassionate, patriotic liberals expressing anguish at the untimely death of an American who was brave enough to volunteer to serve his country but apparently not American enough for his fellow soldiers.
Whether the accusations are true or not, this young man committed suicide while serving our country. Military members are briefed often on recognizing signs of depression and suicidal tendencies in their fellow service members. This should have been avoided regardless of the charges. If the charges are true, these men who "hazed" him deserve punishment. They are responsible for the death of a US soldier and a son. I hope his family finds peace.
Sorry, Allielcea, but despite JP's somewhat over-the-top response, he's right.
Some people just aren't cut out to be soldiers. Most realize this and never enlist, but a few unfortunates do. These individuals aren't "hazed," and the use of that term is ridiculous. Every soldier that screws up is subjected to discipline. This ranges from extra PT (physical training) such as push-ups, to pulling extra shifts, to having their ass chewed out by an NCO. This is normal and acceptable behavior in a military unit.
This may seem like something out of "A Few Good Men" to you because you aren't a military veteran and therefore don't distinguish between what's commonly referred to as a "blanket party," which IS hazing, and military discipline. Extra PT and duty is really the only route available to NCO's who are trying to not subject a soldier to an Article 15 or, worse, a court martial. I'm not sure what constitutes "abuse" when it comes to exercise. Having been subjected to 8+ hours of exercise in a single day because of my own mistakes, I have difficulty feeling sympathy for anyone else who might find themselves in the same position.
I feel for Chen's family. They clearly don't understand the reasoning for Chen's extra PT and I'm sure they never thought of him as lazy or ill-equipped to be in the military. Unfortunately, that's almost certainly the reason he killed himself. I doubt sincerely he was treated poorly because of his ethnicity; during my six years in the Army, nearly all of it in combat units, I saw less than a handful of racial incidents and all of them were isolated and immediately addressed. This seems to me to be little more than a public lashing of the soldiers involved because of a recent media trend toward covering incidents of hazing. In this case, the word "hazing" doesn't really apply. This isn't a school marching band. It's the U.S. Army, and if you can't handle doing extra push-ups when you make a mistake, you shouldn't sign up.
Rick,
First of all, I never mentioned race. Second, just because someone isn't cut out to be a soldier doesn't mean they deserve to be treated so badly that they feel they need to KILL themselves! I don't have a problem with a few extra push-ups, but it seems the punishment may have been a little overboard, considering the hearings and media coverage. There's a difference between deserving to do extra PT for screwing up and abuse. Also, it seem his peers were indeed "hazing" him in personal confrontation. It's ridiculous that people are excusing this behavior just because he perhaps wasn't fit to be a soldier. That is not a death sentence, it's just an unfortunate choice of career! If he's not carrying his own weight, remove him and reassign him. Why is it suddenly ok for the Army to kill its own soldiers? And don't give me the "there's no hazing in the military" bull. No, sit ups for punishment isn't considered hazing. My husband is in the military. Trust me, there's hazing. And it's pathetic.
Anyway, it seems you missed the point of my post. Basically the only thing I said was that if these soldiers had been looking out for one another like they're supposed to, someone would have caught the signs that he was suicidal and should have reported it. My husband attends briefings all the time about recognizing when a fellow service member needs help. It's fine to push someone to their limit. But once it's reached, back off and be civil to that person.
I'm sorry, but "remove him and reassign him" aren't options in the military. If your husband is in, you should know that. And it's not always about not cutting it in the combat arms; sometimes, a soldier is just lazy. Or stupid. And they make mistakes at the most basic levels: not showing up for formations, being out of uniform, not completing assigned tasks. The only options are to either formally discipline the soldier, which NCO's try to avoid because it nearly always involves the soldier losing what little pay they have, or to informally discipline them with PT. Again, it ISN'T hazing.
You also assume, wrongly, that soldiers know what to look for when someone is suicidal. Despite the extremely brief training soldiers receive on that, they aren't experts. And when the general opinion of another soldier is poor, the signs are often seen as the soldier just being lazy or seeking attention. If Chen WAS showing signs, and there's no definitive proof of that, then saying it's the fault of the other members of his unit for not seeing them is absurd. They're in a combat zone, they have a hell of a lot to think about, and nearly everyone there is unhappy to begin with.
I don't know what branch of the military your husband is in. And I can't speak for other units. But I was in a combat MOS for nearly the entire time I was in the Army, and I saw exactly ONE incident of hazing. In basic training. And never again since. The idea that hazing occurs frequently in the military is unbelievable to me. Unless you think hazing includes push-ups. Or yelling at someone. I'm not sure what your definition includes.
Rick: good grief.... sorry you feel that way. I am glad our paths will never cross.
Rick,
If removing and reassigning people isn't an option in the military, then EVERY "weak link" would be in for a death sentence. Either by situations like this where they end up killing themselves, or in combat situations that they obviously aren't prepared for. Furthermore, they would be endangering the lives of men in their unit. There are options for people who find themselves in combat zones and discover they can't cut it. It would be extremely irresponsible and DANGEROUS for there not to be. And no, if you read my post you would see that I do NOT consider extra PT as punishment "hazing."
Rick - clearly you don't know what you are talking about. There are steps to removing someone who is not cut out for the military and every commander knows that. Chen's superiors know it too and that is why the charges are being made. The soldiers in questions acted outside the norm and in a way unbecoming to the military. If this was not the case, charges would not have been brought against the soldiers. The commanding officers admit this. They do not refer to any of Chen's actions as lazy or inept. You clearly have never served or, if you have, are a disgrace to the uniform.
Rick and JP make valid points. Allielcea just because your husband tells you about the army doesn't mean you understand the day to day grind of being in it especially in a combat zone. Things change there and the usual processes and procedures aren't always possible. I've seen overweight soldiers not get chaptered because we needed them for our deployment. (They usually lost weight down range anyhow).
Until the case is tried and evidence presented all we can do here is speculate. But for the record political correctness doesn't work in the field. Soldiers have committed suicide since the beginning of time and unfortunately they will continue to. I do feel sorry for his family and friends though and my condolences go out to them.
Allielcea is you husband combat arms on a COP in the middle of Taliban Country? A few words about Palace.........there was NO internet, NO telephones either.........IF you went to pick up supplies at the FOB you would maybe get 30 min. total online.....that is IF you went.
Secondly Allielcea, there are steps the NCO's must take to get someone re-assigned, they don't just say he come pick him up.
Because of his weakness as a soldier he NEVER left the COP, that is why he was on extra guard duty!!! Because he could NOT patrol someone else had to in his spot. Like I said they were roughly 15 Soldiers UNDERMANNED that meant that EVERY Soldier there had to do EXTRA work ALL THE TIME!! NO REST!!!
I am having a hard time believing that you are the wife of an Active Duty Infantry Soldier, because you of ALL people would KNOW that those guys would put their lives on the line for the buddy next to him in a minute. It is never about them but the guys next to them!!! I cannot believe you would be fine with your husband patrolling with a fellow soldier who was constantly unprepared!!
Allielcea If suicide is sooooo easy to detect then how come people get away with doing it??? How come Family members cannot stop others family members from killing themselves? They have had years to get to know and understand them not 45 days.
Just before this unit took over palace in June it was manned by Canadians.....they had 2 back to back suicides towards the end of their tour.....how did those NCO's not see it, they had 10-11 mos to understand their fellow soldiers?
So I guess the fact that they KNOW he was being harassed because of his race means nothing. He is of course the wrong color to have justice. There will be no riots in the streets, cars and buildings burned and looted.
While it's obvious he had been singled out to be harassed, at this time we can't say for sure that the reason was his race. As JP said above (one of the only things I agree with him on), he may have been the weakest in the group, or a number of other reasons. If race was the or even one of the reasons he was singled out, then that absolutely needs to be addressed. However, just because the article points out that he was the only person of his race in that group doesn't necessarily make this a race issue. Like I said, it very well could be and if that's the case then we can absolutely be upset about it. But at this point, it's a difficult assertion to make. Also keep in mind, though I've followed this story, I haven't read every single article and if you're going off of information from another article, then I may not be informed of it.
He was NEVER harassed for his race at Palace, those accusations come from letters home while he was at Fort Benning.........terrible reporting or closed minded? If he could not take being called Jackie Chen then he most certainly did not need to be going toe to toe with the Taliban......not saying the he should have not been in the military but probably NOT INFANTRY!
I like what JP said. Enough of everyones else's race theme. A weak link is a weak link. Yes soldiers stick together as a team. Operative word is team. A weak link is not part of the team and the team needs to survive. Not waste time on a weak link who will get them all at the very least seriously hurt and at the most killed. Been there done that, have the hat and T-shirt. For the rest of you folks who have not been in combat you have not earned the the right to make an intelligent comment as you don't have the exprience.
I haven not been in combat, so feel free to disregard my comment as worthless. I understand the necessity of a team that works together and is all on the same physical and mental level. I understand that a weak link could cost people their lives. But, call me crazy, I don't think those "weak links" deserve to be harrassed and abused to the point of suicide. Bring them up to the rest of the team's level (yes, with extra exercises but also with ENCOURAGEMENT rather than cruelty) or give them a different job. I'm sorry but just because I lack personal combat experience doesn't mean that hazing someone to death is right or acceptable on any planet.
When you have a weak link you either work on making it stronger, or you try to remove it. There are proper channels in US military to remove weak links - driving them to a suicide (or shooting them in the back) is not one of them. Such behavior is conduct unbecoming of a soldier - if you do not see that, I pity you.
EVERY Thing they had him do was to make him STRONGER..Sit up, push ups, low crawl and sprints wiht a 20lb sand bag!! When you are in pre-deployment training you have to run sprints carrying a fellow soldier!!!! Way more than 20lbs don't ya thinK???
This young man is solely responsible for his own death.
The political witch hunt for someone to blame is ridiculous.
The suicide rate in today's military is unacceptably high, however it will not be reduced by court marshaling fellow soldiers for hazing.
Hazing is an ingrained part of military life. Its necessary to root out weak soldiers before they get someone killed.
Again this young man is solely responsible for his own death.
And you know this how?
Retired 3 tour Infantry Combat Vet.
Milo, the responsibility for any suicide ultimately lies with the victim. However you stated, "The suicide rate in today's military is unacceptably high." So don't you think, since this group has a rate that is higher than most other groups, perhaps there is something within the military that is causing these people to commit such an action? And wouldn't it follow that finding out WHAT that cause is could lead to preventing it and thus saving lives? And isn't the US military all about protecting and saving American lives? So isn't it the DUTY of the US Military to find the cause of this an all military suicides, prevent such actions in the future, and save lives?
No and it is because the "everybody deserves a trophy" mentality that has seeped into the military that there are those who cannot hack it!!! Kandahar is NOT summer camp!!!
Enough of this other PC garbage. American first with some other racial or ethnic background. To many organizations that emphasize differences and keep it up so that assimilation as an american is not the goal.
As a former member of the 25th in my day (1968 Vietnam) known as the Electric Strawberry. I believe that this unfortunate young man was in the wrong place at the wrong time. The fact of the matter is that combat is the most stressful environment known to man. If his fellow soldiers believed that he was a slacker, he would get harrased due to the fact that a unit is only as strong as its weakest link. The slackers that I have encountered either transferred out of the unit, or got themselves or someone else hurt or killed.
In this instance, proper protocol was not followed by either the dead soldier or his chain of command, while this is understandable in a combat zone it does nothing for the dead soldier nor his family. This young man was obviously not mentally suited for service in a frontline combat unit and he should have requested a transfer to non combat unit, failing that, his immediate superiors should have also recognized this fact and transferred him out. That failure is deriliction of duty. Unfortunately suicide among our military has reached epidemic levels and needs to be recognized and acted upon by all levels of the chain of command.
Leo, thank you for your service and for your level-headed response that didn't include or insinuate, "he was a weak soldier, so he deserved to die." That seems like all anyone is saying and it's really starting to bum me out. So Thank you.
War is an inheirently masculine thing and the liberals keep shoving less and less qualified individuals into the azz of the military. The military used the cat 4's in Vietman with horrible consequences. So ,they stick less and less qualified indiviuals into the military in hopes of destroying it and thereby hiding thier cowardice. Every time a new "class" or group is sholved into the military you can trace the action to man who avoided military service. If the military is a "bad" organization then thier personal cowardice is relived. Liberals I don't want to hear from you...everytime you are needed to help America, you put your hand in the till and steal something, NEVER giving anything of value to America.
HeIsTheGreatest get it right. It was NOT the Obama administration that lowered the recruiting standards. IT WAS PRESIDENT BUSH. Bush lowered them to prevent having a draft because he wasn't getting enough volenteers for his trumped up wars.
Conservatives care nothing about the common soldier. They are just meat for the grinder while the Conservatives sit in their cushy homes shouting "I am patriotic because I support our soldiers." while not willing to make any sacrifices to support them. It's total BS.
You want to see someone who avoided military service look at many of the past top republicans like Bush, Cheney and others. They either got deferments or had their influential friends and relatives get them a cushy post stateside.
Conservatives steal others life, liberty and happiness to further their own selfish and greedy agenda. They all disgust me.
And before you get all puffed up with fake indignation. I SERVED.
Oh for Pete's sake, why is this about parties? Both of you chill out and realize that people and their actions (namely support of troops in this case) are determined by more than their political party. There are people in both parties that support troops and people in both that don't. Get over yourselves and your ridiculous partisonship.
HeIsTheGreatest - oh yes - let's not hear from anyone who might disagree with you because your narrow mindset is the only one that matters. I have liberal friends who have served and some have given the ultimate sacrifice. How dare you think that only the damned right wingers love this country. And, when you talk about people putting their hands in the till and stealing I can only guess you mean yourself. I and my friends work and contribute to our country in many ways. Your serious lack of any kind of intelligence is a total reflection of your narrow mindedness - not the Liberals true beliefs or actions.
Sandy - thank you for your service.
Wait a minute - I don't think either party is responsible for "lower" standards.Patriotic feelings (and military recruitment) have always lagged after 2 years of any conflict. It was so during the American Revolution up through our current conflicts. When that happens the top military brass have to broaden the definition of acceptable recruit.But the political party in power at the time had nothing to do with it.
Now I know where all the bullies from high school go when they graduate...the military.
S.G. from Seattle: Some just like to pull the wings off a butterfly to see if it can fly.... All walks of life enter the military.
What happened to this soldier was very sad but every one is so quick to place blame-we do not know all of the facts in the case and probably never will so we can not know what in total led to this man's suicide. To automatically label the whole military as a bunch of bullies highllights your pure ignorance.
When you enter military service they do not put a D or an R behind your name. In my day when the draft was still active you were either a US (draftee) or RA (Regular Army) and when you got into a firefight with the enemy it really did not matter whether you were US or RA, and it certainly did not matter whether you were Democrat or Republican, liberal or conservative. What mattered was that you performed your duty for the betterment of your squad, your company, your unit and ultimately your country. With the draft on, I served with guys who had graduate degrees as well as highschool dropouts, their performance was equally great, and their blood ran equally red. Politicizing a military issue is BS
Amen Leo.
No Congress hearing, but, a civil hearing will be pursued.
What if this was a Pphilipino-American soldier, how would the DOD react?
Yep, this is why you don't hire military people. Military Justice is a joke. You can massacre an entire village of asian women and children and not get in trouble for it in the Army. See My Lai Massacre and William Calley. The Army and the Columbus, GA (Fort Benning) Kiwanis Club hailed William Calley as a hero recently and paid him over $20,000 to speak at their club. You can repeatedly assault asian soldiers and get away scott free.
Never hire a military person unless you want someone to put your company at risk for a racial or sexual harassment lawsuit or put your employees at risk by allowing a former soldier with untreated PTSD that could go postal at anytime in your office.
Do you always lump all people together regardless of it they did something or not??? Not all folks who did time in the military or retired from the military will put a company at risk...you have folks from every walk of life that can do the same thing, put a company at risk for racial and or sexual harassment, or for an individual going "postal" as we sometimes call it.
It's folks like you who talk out of the wrong end of their body that give other folks a bad name.
Retired Air Force not going "postal" in a large company ever.
lourdesmanos -You know it doesn't matter which side of the fence the sh*t is coming from- it still stinks.
Just as there are some people who do not have the make up to be a soldier or who do not have the fortitude to be in combat,there are some people who do not have the ability to be leaders of others. It takes more than just being tough or a good soldier to be a leader of men. Perhaps the "leaders" of this platoon fit in this category - good men, good soldiers,but not the right fit to lead men.
And what happens if it turns out that they were in the process of getting him removed???? Do you not understand they KNEW he was not able to Soldier, that is why they did not allow him to leave the wire??? He had Guard Duty and that was it! The could not just send him on his way!!! It is a process that can take time...he was only there 45 days total!!!!!!!
Over 20 years Combat arms all 20 plus years and several deployments to places none here who are asking that the soldiers be charged with crimes have ever been to.
The world is crual and harsh, get over it. Just because most of you have lived in the land of pet bunnies does not mean bunnies have a cheerful life outside of your life experiences...
If you have not served in a combat arms ground unit you really do not understand and I do not think we can explain it to you.... Weakess is a threat to every soldier in a combat zone. All of the troops in that COP suffered because he was too soft and weak to be depended on when the bullets went flying.
The troop in question ate his own gun while on a guard post by himself. No one is denying that. The charges against the other soldiers are political.
If 8 Marines and a stack of unarmed dead civilians they killed does not result in a single manslaughter, much less murder charge then manslaughter for a soldier who ate his own gun is not only political, its foolish....
There are not enough words to explain ground combat and what it does to those who live through it, Hollywood is bull@!$%#.
As for those who mention William Calley and the killings in the two hamlets in Sơn Tịnh Vietnam. They occured because the command climate allowed weak leadership in the Americal Division. If Calley had been relieved for previous shown weaknesses in both his leadership, tactical knowledge and moral courage the killings would have not occured. Any who have read the report or Cally's own writtings would have no doubt of his guilt and weakness.
Getting rid of those who can not take combat was a lesson from the Peers Report which recommended removing officers from command starting at Calley's Company Commander all the way up to the Division 2nd in command and included 2 generals, 5 Cols, 5 LTCs, and numerous other officers and NCO's.
Politics then, as now prevented justice. In My Lai all officers, because of politics avoided serious punishment. I include Cally, I was living at Fort Benning at the time and know exactly how fluffy his"jail"was.
Here, because of politics , several good men are being charged to sway the asian vote for the next election. For those who want to call my statement racist, I am married to an asian so take your racism elsewhere. I call them as I see them. I see no public outrage for all the other soldiers who killed themselves in the last few months...
I suspect I am wasting time typing, if you have been there you understand, if not... just try not to presume you understand what occurs there, no matter how many times you have watched Saving Private Ryan.
Just take this away, you will note every single person who has posted that they are a combat arms vet who has been to at least one deployment have all said the same thing.
What are the odds that they all are bullies or bad people?
Good pose!
So basically what anyone who is (or was) in the military is saying: It's okay to let their fellow soldiers kill themselves. Because it means that they didn't deserve to live.
Chen was a weak person and he took his own life... Problem solved.
Richard Johnson-4988962: Wow...so you knew Chen? You worked side by side with Chen in the Army? Help the world solve some problems and ftfo
No, you are right.... He was the poster boy of a strong will and perseverance needed in every soldier..
My mother in law committed suicide when my husband was a Sr. in HS and had a younger brother.......were they at fault? How about my friends niece who just had a baby and committed suicide at Thanksgving? Or my son's best friends Dad, who he found with his head blown off in a tool shed.....they are ALL TO BLAME??? I guess when Tony Dungy's son committed suicide you blamed him and his wife and other children too???
Only a mindless idiot would comment that he was ALLOWED to commit suicide!!! Yeah, that is what everyone needed was a suicide to go along with all of the KIA's and WIA's that had occurred there. Oh, yeah, and I guess the Canadians that were there in May allowed their fellow Soldiers to just commit suicide.......they had 2!!!
The FACT that a person who committed suicide was given a Full Military Honors Burial at Valhalla and a Bronze Star for Bravery stinks of Politics and sends a terrible message!!!
Rick Stevenson's comment makes me wanna hurl my dinner. Shame on you. How dare you say that stuff. You have a lizard's brain. I hope you are not in our military. May this poor guy rest in peace, he had little when he was alive. Rick minimizes racism and harassment. Nice.
Predictably , the comments here are split right along the party line.
The nasty racist rightie nationalist conervative poos defending the soldiers who hazed a fellow soldier to death....
and the educated, compassionate, patriotic liberals expressing anguish at the untimely death of an American who was brave enough to volunteer to serve his country but apparently not American enough for his fellow soldiers.
PS - I wish Someone here whom i shall not name would just STFU. But she definitely has the right to fill this board up with her inanities. I also hope she can muster some sympathy for the parents (even if they look a little different from the "real americans") who sent their son to serve their country only to be served with his dead body a few months later - because he was hazed to death by his fellow soldiers. What a nasty runt of person this woman is. Jesus !!!!
Some people honestly just use this place to spew their crazy vitrol. Too bad you can't stop crazy people from using the internet.