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Chris Carlson / AP
Marine Corps Staff Sgt. Frank Wuterich, left, arrives with his attorney for a court session at Camp Pendleton in Camp Pendleton, Calif., Tuesday, Jan. 24.,
Updated at 6:45 p.m. ET: Prosecutors asked judge Lt. Col. David Jones to give Staff Sgt. Frank Wuterich the maximum sentence of three months confinement, a reduction in rank and forfeiture of two-thirds of his pay.
They said his knee-jerk reaction of sending the squad to assault nearby homes without positively identifying the threat went against his training and led to the deaths of the 10 women and children.
"That is a horrific result from that derelict order of shooting first, ask questions later," Lt. Col. Sean Sullivan told the court.
The judge said he would recommend that Wuterich's rank be reduced to private.
He said he decided not to dock his pay because he is the divorced father of three young daughters with sole custody.
Updated at 6:20 p.m. ET: A Marine sergeant who led a squad that killed 24 unarmed Iraqis will spend no time in confinement.
Military judge Lt. Col. David Jones said he wanted to send Staff Sgt. Frank Wuterich to the brig, but his hands were tied by a plea agreement that prevents any jail time.
Jones was not aware of the stipulation until he opened the plea agreement in court after recommending 90 days confinement.
Wuterich pleaded guilty to negligent dereliction of duty, a charge that carried a maximum sentence of 90 days. But because of the way the military system works, the terms of the deal with prosecutors weren't known to the judge until after he made his sentencing recommendation in court on Tuesday.
Earlier:
CAMP PENDLETON, Calif. -- A Marine sergeant whose squad killed 24 unarmed Iraqi civilians in assaults after a bomb killed a fellow Marine has told a judge he never fired his weapon at any women or children that day.
Staff Sgt. Frank Wuterich addressed a Camp Pendleton, Calif., court during sentencing for negligent dereliction of duty in the 2005 attacks in Haditha, Iraq.
A plea deal Monday ended a manslaughter case against the Marine from Meriden, Conn. Prosecutors implicated Wuterich in 19 of the 24 deaths.
Wuterich's statement also addressed surviving members of families who were attacked, saying he knows nothing can ease their pain and that they are the real victims.
Wuterich said that when he told his squad to shoot first and ask questions later, he did not intend they shoot civilians, but to not hesitate in the face of the enemy.
"The truth is: I never fired any weapon at any women or children that day," Wuterich said in a statement during his sentencing hearing.
'Sorrow' for loss of loved ones
He began by telling the family members of victims, "Words cannot express my sorrow for the loss of your loved one. I know there is nothing I can say to ease your pain. I wish to assure you that on that day, it was never my intention (to) harm you or your families. I know that you are the real victims of Nov. 19, 2005."
He went on to say he went to Iraq to do his duty, serve his country, and do the best job he could.
Iraq War veterans to attend State of the Union address
"When my Marines and I cleared those houses that day, I responded to what I perceived as a threat and my intention was to eliminate that threat in order to keep the rest of my Marines alive," he said. "So when I told my team to shoot first and ask questions later, the intent wasn't that they would shoot civilians, it was that they would not hesitate in the face of the enemy."
Military prosecutors worked for more than six years to bring Wuterich to trial on manslaughter charges that could have sent him away to prison for life.
But only weeks after the long-awaited trial started, they offered Wuterich a deal that stopped the proceedings for the squad leader who ordered his men to "shoot first, ask questions later" and resulted in one of the Iraq War's worst attacks on civilians by U.S. troops.
The 31-year-old Marine, who was originally accused of unpremeditated murder, pleaded guilty Monday to negligent dereliction of duty for leading the squad that killed the civilians.
Wuterich, who was indicted in 19 of the 24 deaths, now faces no more than three months in confinement.
It was a stunning outcome for the last defendant in the case once compared with the My Lai massacre in Vietnam. The seven other Marines initially charged were exonerated or had their cases dropped.
'Insult to all Iraqis'
"This sentence gives us the proof, the solid proof that the Americans don't respect human rights," Ali Badr, a Haditha resident and relative of one of those killed, told Reuters. "This is an insult to the victims and an insult to all Iraqis."
One of the survivors, Awis Fahmi Hussein, told The Associated Press in Haditha: "I was expecting that the American judiciary would sentence this person to life in prison and that he would appear and confess in front of the whole world that he committed this crime, so that America could show itself as democratic and fair."
Military judge Lt. Col. David Jones began hearing arguments from both sides Tuesday at Camp Pendleton, Calif., before making a sentencing recommendation to be considered by the commander of Marine Corps Forces Central Command.
Legal experts said the case was fraught with errors made by investigators and the prosecution that let it drag on for years. The prosecution was also hampered by squad mates who acknowledged they had lied to investigators initially and later testified in exchange for having their cases dropped, bringing into question their credibility.
In addition, Wuterich was seen as taking the fall for senior leaders and more seasoned combat veterans, analysts said. It was his first time in combat when he led the squad on Nov. 19, 2005.
Brian Rooney, an attorney for another former defendant, said cases like Haditha are difficult to prosecute because a military jury is unlikely to question decisions made in combat unless wrongdoing is clear-cut and egregious, like rape.
"If it's a gray area, fog-of-war, you can't put yourself in a Marine's situation where he's legitimately trying to do the best he can," said Rooney, who represented Lt. Col. Jeffrey Chessani, the highest-ranking Marine charged in the case. "When you're in a town like Haditha or Fallujah, you've got bad guys trying to kill you and trying to do it in very surreptitious ways."
The Haditha attack is considered among the war's defining moments, further tainting America's reputation when it was already at a low point after the release of photos of prisoner abuse by U.S. soldiers at Abu Ghraib prison.
Anger lingers in Iraq
It still fuels anger in Iraq today.
"We wonder about such a sentence issued against the defendant. We called upon U.S. to be fair in passing sentences. Regrettably, we are disappointed about the issuance of such sentences," said Khalid Salman Rasif, a member of the Provincial Council in Haditha, adding he would contact the lawyer for victims' families for an explanation.
Kamil al-Dulaimi, a Sunni lawmaker from the Anbar provincial capital of Ramadi, called the plea agreement proof that "Americans still deal with Iraqis without any respect."
"It's just another barbaric act of Americans against Iraqis," al-Dulaimi told The Associated Press. "They spill the blood of Iraqis and get this worthless sentence for the savage crime against innocent civilians."
Wuterich, the father of three children, had faced the possibility of life behind bars when he was charged with nine counts of manslaughter, which will be dropped. Along with facing a maximum of three months in confinement, he could also lose two-thirds of his pay and see his rank demoted to private when he's sentenced.
Khalid Salman, a lawyer for the Haditha victims' relatives, told Reuters he could not believe the sentence and had to check that it was true.
"This is not a traffic felony," said Salman, who had a cousin killed in the massacre.
Wuterich, his family and his attorneys declined to comment Monday after he entered the plea. Prosecutors also declined to comment on the plea deal.
During the trial before a jury of combat Marines who served in Iraq, prosecutors argued he lost control after seeing the body of his friend blown apart by the bomb and led his men on a rampage in which they stormed two nearby homes, blasting their way in with gunfire and grenades. Among the dead was a man in a wheelchair.
In the deal, Wuterich acknowledged that his orders misled his men to believe they could shoot without hesitation and not follow the rules of engagement that required troops to positively identify their targets before they raided the homes.
He told the judge that caused "tragic events."
"I think we all understood what we were doing so I probably just should have said nothing," Wuterich told the judge.
He said his orders were based on the guidance of his platoon commander at the time, and that the squad did not take any gunfire during the 45-minute raid.
Many of his squad mates testified that they do not believe to this day that they did anything wrong because they feared insurgents were inside hiding.
Haditha prompted commanders to demand troops be more careful in distinguishing between civilians and combatants.
Former Navy officer David Glazier said the case shows such rules are essential to helping the United States prevail in an armed conflict.
"The reality is that this incident has had significant consequences for the U.S. in Iraq," said Glazier, a professor at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles. "It probably fueled the resistance and so it probably ended up costing additional soldiers and Marines their lives later on."
The Associated Press and Reuters contributed to this report.
Leave a Comment:
Strange yesterday one side of the story and today another.... God Bless you young man. I pray your country isn't trying to hang you out to dry for an absolute cluster — — — - ! I don't know what in the Hell to believe. I will always try to stand up for our troops regardless of the BS.
BS? They went in a killed unarmed civilians. They ALL deserve life in prison, if not the death penalty. ROE is in place for a reason. This story is absolutely disgusting and so are the actions of our "trained" soldiers..... I understand that @!$%# sometime happens in war. But a in a "45" minute raid, surly someone should have realized wtf was going.
Sam: So glad you were there... thanks for clarifying. How's the armchair justice going for you?
Sam, as a vet I can tell you 45 mins is not long at all in a raid. But then again as Fed Up stated, arm chair subject matter experts like yourself know better.......
This is the problem when you are fighting a war against an enemy that has no real structure and does not wear any uniforms. It is difficult in the heat of the moment to tell who is a civilian and who is the enemy. I agree that the shooting of children is wrong, but the shooting of women is not necessarily wrong because women are jut as likely to shoot you as a man. When there are no uniforms for the combatants, any adult can be the enemy. What happened in Haditha is a tragedy and should not have happened, but you have to put yourself in the place of those marines at the time. They had just had a brother blown to pieces and saw themselves as being next. They reacted based on those emotions and faulting them for that is very difficult.
Fed: And u were there? Don't try to bring my credibility into the situation just because I wasn't there. Its common @!$%#ing sense. I don't care how PSTD someone is. Firing on women and children is inexcusable. I mean the entire point of us being in Iraq is so that Americans dont get killed in terrorist attacks (riiight). So instead we go in and kill their civilians.....
I'm not trying to attack the army as a whole. Like I said, @!$%# happens. But if it does, it should be properly sentenced.
Sam,
No one really understand the feeling of "Fog of War", the best description I can give you is, don't sleep and eat for 24 hours, then go out to the woods when it's raining and cold outside and run around an obstacle course to perfection. That would be an impossible task because you're tired, hungry, wet, and cold. Those element will give you a good idea of what a "Fog of War" is like although it's not even close to what a real "Fog of War" is like because your life isn't at stake. Again, like Fed Up said, when did you serve?
Sam - the reason we were there is that Bush wanted revenge for daddy and oil for his buddies. This had nothing to do with terrorists attacks. But, our men and women had to face unknown adversaries and often did not know who would shoot and who wouldn't. I don't pretend to know what happened that day. I can imagine 45 minutes of gunfire might have gone very quickly. I also know there are females who are willing to arm themselves to kill those they consider the enemy. I don't know if this was the case or not. It appears that someone who was rushed into a command position was not properly trained for that position. My guess is he lives with the consequences every day of his life. I hate that we look so bad as a country but I am not qualified to judge what happened.
Sam: You go buddy.... myself I feel ill and will leave you to tear up the forum. God Bless our women and men in uniform. Sam PTSD is what I think you mean to say.... could be wrong.
I didn't serve. But do I have be a murderer to know that murder is wrong? Do I have to be a rapist to know that rape is wrong?.... Didn't think so. SO I don't have to serve to know that the actions in this case were wrong. So Tony, Fed, JS, and Gim: When did you guys serve? Can you honestly say that at any point in your service (thank you by the way) you had to fire on unarmed civilians when you were taking no enemy fire? And that those actions were justified?
That's right. And that's also why their actions are being called into question. Nobody denies that the situation they were in was unimaginably stressful. However, when you shoot first and ask question later, which happens time from time sadly, you need to be called out on it.
Sam, I did serve, I served 4 years in the Marines Corps and another 10 years in the Navy. I switch to an easier service because I could not perform at the top of my ability physically in the Marines. Foolishly, I thought the Navy would be easier but it was just as demanding if not physically. I was there when the first tomahawk missile was shot into the Iraqi Presidential Palace on March 20, 2003. I deployed again in 2009 and left the service because I could not handle the demand the military placed on me any longer. I even had civilian job offers in the six figures to go back to Iraq/Afag, but I refuse to take those job because I could no longer bear the burden of leaving my family for a long period of time.
This guy is a thug and a disgrace to the Marine Corps.
How low America has sunk. War crimes, torture, and now it would seem state sponsored terrorism. Every Marine knows it is not ok to attack unarmed people be they combatants who have surrendered or civilians. Every Marine knows it is his or her duty if faced with such a situation to use force if need be to stop it. Disgusting that one of our greatest military forces has been smeared by this non-sense.
Thank you for your service Tony!
This scumbag got a slap on the wrist.He isn't fit to where any uniform.Not even a Janitor's.
It's to dam bad he's from the same state I am and right down the rode.HE'S NOT ONLY A DIGRACE TO THE MILITARY, HE'S A DISGRACE TO THE STATE OF CONNECTICUT!
Ya, its a barbaric act alright, just not as bad as Saddam, or the ones now running around blowing people up. We gave the country a chance for change and chit happens, it is regrettable, but they are kids in a war with suicide bombers and snipers. Iraqis own country men would think nothing of killing every person in that village just for owning a dog.
I agree with those who say that we shouldn't judge this young man. Nor should we judge the soldiers who guarded inmates at Auschwitz. After all, it must have been very, very stressful. And some of those soldiers might have also participated in the crushing of the Warsaw ghetto uprising, where they would have seen how brutal the animalistic, fanatical Jews could be. I can certainly understand why those brave, brave soldiers would have been very afraid, and no one has the right to judge them if they haven't served as a guard at a death camp themselves.
You people are revolting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2005_Marine_Killings_in_Haditha.jpg
But its ok, I think they were dead before the marines arrived.....
"... HE'S A DISGRACE TO THE STATE OF CONNECTICUT!"
Whoa, whoa, whoa. This has gone too far now.
strange...
you guys said he cant make clarity since it was in the "heat of war" and tha it doesnt matter since they dont wear uniform
but he killed 10 woman n children
by the time i lined up all my shot i would have at least known who i shot by then
trust me, terrorist dont scream in different way when you put a bullet through them, they dont have that training...
try pointing your finger at 10 different object, then tell me that you dont know what you are pointing at
UNLESS he had 10 shot sin 10 secs LOLS
gj, american patriotism=doing w.e you want, NO PROBLEM >:D!
Maybe Bradley Manning should have went off and killed a bunch of Iraqi women and children. No jail time for something like that. Good to know that vermin like Manning get life in prison and this guy gets to walk around among us. He certainly is a hero, as most of you state. It takes a man to shoot un-armed kids.
Love to hear from all you folks who never served an 'f'ing day in the military. You do know they have teenage girls strapping bomb sto themselves and blowing civilians up. Manning is a friggin traitor and should be shot. This guys deserves to be demoted, and no longer an NCO!
We seem to be getting closer to the likes of the people we hate which means they are winning. Retaliation agaist the nemy is fine inkind. Doing it to innocent civilians or civilians who may or may not be the enemy is unjust no matter who does it. The guys from the US whos bodies were descrated on that bridge comes to mind.
I love the excuse that murder is OK just because you're a soldier placed in a situation where people are killing each other every day. So black people in the ghetto are murderers, but a soldier can't be, even if he kills or issues orders that result in the death of innocent women and children? I support our troops. I support them with every ounce of my being and thank them every day for keeping our country safe. I will NOT, however, make excuses for them when they do something stupid, like pissing on the bodies of dead enemy combatants, or issuing an order that results in the murder of an innocent. Our military is a reflection of our country as a whole. Incidents like the aforementioned are what cause other countries to hate America.
Today I'm embarrassed to be an American.
24 dead Iraqis, what's that like 1/2 an American, what's the fuss, go back to sleep, he got a demotion, he's paid his debt to society
Exactly...
You nationalist war crime apologists are why the world hates us...and why we're two steps from fascism.
How exactly did they mistake women and CHILDREN for male combatants?
Now, IF it was a honest mistake, then it's the government's fault for being there so long when it isn't for the defense of our nation, but to nation build theres.
I'm astounded at this statement:
I'm pretty sure this the EXACT attitude the terrorists who try to kill our civilians take. Are we not better than them? Shouldn't we be better? Or should we think just like them and laugh off the death of women and children? CHILDREN!
You sir, are a sociopath, and should seek help. Zombie nationalists like you made Germany think they were patriotic for being Nazis.
BTW, I'm a Republican...this isn't a left/right issue.
We should have given this guy and his "men" to the Iraqis for a trial/sentance.
To all you war mongers beating your chest about how you're making us "free" by murdering people all over the world. ** Newsflash ** You're not making us "free" you're making us "broke".
All those $$$ Trillions in war mongering money will have to be paid back to the international bankers, with interest. You and your spawn will soon live your days immersed in the circumstances of debt slavery.
And that is how you will pay for the all consuming hate you cultivated to replace your soul that was sold to the military industrial complex.
I can't say I've seen a single warmonger beating their chest and proclaiming we must free ourselves by murdering people all over the world. Who are you quoting from this thread? Philip munroe is obviously trolling, I don't think he counts.
It's hard to say what exactly happened during those 45 minutes. For all you thinking that killing someone in combat is the same as pointing your finger at them in a nice, clear, bright room where you can easily identify them first- sorry, I don't think it was that way. They were throwing grenades, I'll bet there was dust flying and confusion everywhere. Usually, if you take the time to think about your target before you shoot, they will have that much more time to shoot you. Despite this, I don't think 'confusion' is a good reason to randomly open fire on any human shape you see, especially if no one is shooting back. I think there should be more punishment for the whole squad. It's hard to believe that they wouldn't have come across their first victims and realized their mistake before they had killed 24.
My guess is philip is just trying to be sarcastic.
How does what this guy did differ from those who serve that then come back to the United States and go on killing sprees? It doesn't in my mind. In fact, I wouldn't be one bit surprised that this man is a rage killer for the rest of his life.
lynseypug- please do list the many people you are referring to that come back from war-zones and go on killing sprees please...... Your sidearm psychological diagnosis I fear is lacking is credible evidence...
Most of the time vets wind up taking their own life or going into isolation when they suffering PTSD, not going on shooting sprees.
Again though. please list the vets your referring too....
@Matt in Albuquerque
On Link television (live news from the ME (translated)), Iraq is now asking for these soldiers to face sentencing in Iraq. Interesting to see how that will play. Not one of the eight served any jail time. Nineteen women and children (and a wheelchair bound man) killed in two houses that were NOT suspected of anything - all killed at close range - the soldiers easily could tell they were women and children.
Perhaps some American towns and European countries that already have warrants for the War Crimes of Bush & Cheney - will add these miserable eight to their list. These men were angry - angry that their friends had been killed and wounded during an IED attack earlier in the day. I understand that they were angry, but what they did with their anger is unacceptable.
Black Kettle et al,
That was 24 people killed - the article said that this particular Marine was only charged in 19 of the murders, but there were actually 24 killed in all. As to the idea of having them tried in Iraq, I can certainly see that the Iraqi people would want that - just as we would. In fact, in a current case, a group of Marines hazed and tormented a young Asian-American Marine until he killed himself (at least the 2nd time this has happened in the last couple of months - who knew that so many Marines were so racist?), However, in this most recent case, the young Marine they harrassed to death happened to be the nephew of a US Senator, and she (the Senator) is pushing to have the trial(s) here in the United States. Of course, this will never happen, because the Marines will NEVER allow one of their own to be punished for anything. Just like in the case in this article, between plea bargains, bad investigative techniques and other "errors" in the Court Martial processes, no Marine will get the jail time he (all the accused are male) deserves. While I am certain that most Marines find this conduct as disgusting as the rest of Americans do, when the Semper Fi crowd continues to allow this type of misconduct, and does nothing to police itself, all Marines lose standing in the eyes of the world. Instead of a team of tough warriors, they become a bunch of uncontrollable lawless brutes. Those of you who serve (and served) honorably need to do something to restore the Corps to a branch deserving of respect, because the men who are acting like out-of-control video game characters are nothing to be proud of, they are just disgracing the reputation of those of you who were once able to think before they shot. I am confident that these men were enraged by the deaths of their friends, but I also believe that anyone going into a war zone is well aware that there will be casualties, and that those deaths do NOT make it okay to go on a testosterone fueled rampage. So I also believe that by his "shoot first" comments, this "leader" was, intentionally or not, giving those under his command permission to take their revenge for the earlier casualties, and should have received REAL punishment for that failure to control himself and failure to provide his group with an example of how to conduct themselves in that situation. This type of situation is exactly why the USA has lost the respect of the world. We may feel sorry for a man being put in this situation, but that is not a reason to allow his actions to go unpunished.
There are always bad nuggets Robin however what most civilians don't realize is that its hard oversea. Often its little kids and women who are blowing them selves up along with setting traps... You can try to say they did the wrong thing however when you see the same kids that your giving food and water too setting the boobytraps to kill you and your battle buddies things turn grey. Its not like out military where everybody who fights is an adult, there they use child soldiers and women on a daily basis. But media likes to sensationalize the topic.....
Second, what you perceive as shoot first is that of a uneducated civilian in military tactics and training. Shoot first is a term used that once identity of targets are identified as hostile he/she is to engage target. If its not move along/monitor activities... Again media sensationalizing what it does not understand and trying to skewer this soldier.
CAMP PENDLETON, Calif. — A Marine accused of killing unarmed Iraqi women and children pleaded guilty to dereliction of duty on Monday, reaching a plea deal and ending the largest and longest-running criminal case against U.S. troops to emerge from the Iraq War.
Staff Sgt. Frank Wuterich led the Marine squad in 2005 that killed 24 Iraqis in the town of Haditha after a roadside bomb exploded near a Marine convoy, killing one Marine and wounding two others.
Wuterich's plea Monday interrupted his trial at Camp Pendleton before a jury of all combat Marines who served in Iraq.
Wuterich faces a maximum of three months confinement, two-thirds forfeiture of pay and a rank demotion to private when he's sentenced, likely on Tuesday.
The issue at the court martial was whether Wuterich reacted appropriately as a Marine squad leader in protecting his troops in the midst of a chaotic war or disregarded combat rules and ordered his men to shoot and blast indiscriminately at Iraqi civilians. Wuterich was charged with nine counts of manslaughter, among other charges, and is one of eight Marines initially charged. None has been convicted.
Prosecutors said he lost control after seeing the body of his friend blown apart by the bomb and led his men on a rampage in which they stormed two nearby homes, blasting their way in with gunfire and grenades. Among the dead were women, children and elderly people, including a man in a wheelchair.
Wuterich's former squad members testified that they did not take any gunfire during the 45-minute raid on the homes nor find any weapons, but several squad members testified that they do not believe they did anything wrong, fearing insurgents were inside hiding.
The prosecution was further hurt by the testimony of Wuterich's former platoon commander who said the squad was justified in its actions because house was declared "hostile," and from what he understood of the rules of combat at the time that meant any use of force was allowed and Marines did not need to positively identify their targets.
Wuterich has said he regretted the loss of civilian lives but believed he was operating within military combat rules.
After Haditha, Marines commanders ordered troops to try and distinguish between civilians and combatants.
The killings in Haditha on Nov. 19, 2005, still fuel anger in Iraq and were the primary reason behind demands that U.S. troops not be given immunity from their court system. It is considered among the war's defining moments, further tainting America's reputation when it was already at a low point after the release of photos of prisoner abuse by U.S. soldiers at Abu Ghraib prison.
The trial was delayed for years by pre-trial wrangling between the defense and prosecution, including over whether the military could use unaired footage from an interview Wuterich gave in 2007 to CBS "60 Minutes." Prosecutors eventually won the right to view the footage
Six squad members have had charges dropped or dismissed, including some in exchange for testifying at the trial. One was acquitted. (MSNBC)
Which story?????
Our heroes are at it again.
This time they killed twenty four unarmed civilians but no one will go to jail for it.
I suppose that “sand @!$%#s” and “towel heads” are not the same as human beings.
Oh well! Just another story to share with the folks back home.
War’s hell, ain’t it?
Semper Fi!
.
When I was in the Corps I seem to remember that visible tattoos were a court martial offense.
Nariat, did you serve with Chestie Puller ? I spent over 5 years in The Corps in the sixties and seventies and I don't recall that.
As far as I'm concerned the Marine still got screwed, he lost his rank and can't retire from the Corps. Damned liberals ruin everything. Semper Fi brother, you did a great job.
@ David, really? Shooting children is a great job? When did the Marines go from the few & proud, to the racist thugs that kill anything that isn't white and in a marine uniform? Semper fi is meant to our mission as well as each other, always faithful to that mission and our ideals. I know I was never commissioned nor ordered to kill children that were of no threat to our unit. By your statment of "great job", you were I take it? Good job there, made us all proud. <<roll eyes>>
After getting attacked by an IED, I might have shot first and asked questions later.
Moreover, I think it's well understood that such a suggestion includes NOT killing civilians. Furthermore, unless there was proof they intentionally killed those people or otherwise wanted to take their rage out on those people, an acquittal was in order. Or better yet, they should have NEVER been tried.
Unlike Vietnam where they WANTED to kill the population (to vent rage), I don't believe there was the same intent here. If anything rookies shouldn't have been put in that situation.
I think the difference here is that these Marines were guilty of violating the War of Public relations and as such the military was scapegoat-ing them to win back Iraqi public support.
Fat Chance of that...better to stand by your boys.
So let me get this straight.If one of your soldiers were killed in war then you would exact your revenge on women and children.This is the mantality that some Americans have.Very discerning to me..
Shell casings were found in the dwellings next to the victims, with blood spatter on the walls from short range, execution style shooting. I'm not standing behind these "boys" anymore than I'd stand with the enemy.
Per Lord Foxdrake: "I think it's well understood that such a suggestion includes NOT killing civilians". @cukester, how can you say that all Americans feel that way? That is profiling and I take offense to it. That would be like saying all British people have bad teeth (which they do not).
He clarified his statement by saying "NOT killing civilians".
I am an American vet and I have been placed in that position on many occasions. One has to go with "gut instinct". On many occasions, the civilians surrounding our convoys were the very same people lobbing hand grenades and firing on us. I have fired upon armed civilians that were trying to kill me.
I don't believe I would have sent my troops in to clear a house, not knowing exactly where the fire came from. He should have gone with them, but maybe he was pinned down. We don't know all the details. If you have never been in this type of situation, then how can you say you'd do things differently?
Believe me, there are a horde of Iraqi civilians that would work for whoever paid them at the time and they have killed Americans and Allied Forces, yet they roam free. It's called war, it happens.
" unless there was proof they intentionally killed those people"
When you aim a weapon at a human being and pull the trigger - it is intentional. When you aim a weapon at a child and pull the trigget - it is murder.
Cukester - your a effing idiot. Bet you were never in battle. War is hell and @!$%# happens.
What a damn shame !!!
This is sheer nonsense. These Marines went after civilians and killed them. There seems to be some question whether there was rage. You're damn right there was and they did it with malice a forethought. I can't believe the damn excuses made over the actions of these so-called cream of American youth. As someone who has walked in their boots many times over a 25 1/2 year career, this ranks right up there with Calley's murders in My Lai and then his pardon by that great warrior Nixon. This is a travesty of justice, but then that hasn't really existed when it comes to these made for big business wars.
Good for Staff Sgt. Frank Wuterich...!!! He has nothing to hang his head in shame about...!!!
The name of the game was ..."WAR"...!
Most of you have trouble managing your lives through simple traffic jams without swearing... and you second guess the decisions of someone who was being shot at from all angles...!
It is you small minded miscreants who should be hanging your heads in shame...!
what i dont get is this: the guy was tried and convicted of murder. the jail sentence was passed up because he is a divorced dad of 3 daughters. but what about the 10 women and children that were killed? they were certainly sons and daughters and wives... what mercy or consolation do their relatives get?
God Bless the Marine Corps
When you are at war, you are at war with the country, not just males over 21. Shoot em all and let God sort em. A 5 year old can have a hand grenade the same as a woman or a man.
i was in the nas and the triangle of death in 03 n 04. through my experiences in iraq fighting insurgents i learned these mother fuccers will hide anywhere!!! remember 9-11 or 03 when they hung our people upside down in fallujah and paraded their burnt remains throughout their streets.
im glad one of my boys if off the hook. how dare our country try and burn one of our own elite!!! dumb fuccs keep tryin to win the hearts and minds of a twisted radical religion that wont give up................
War.... is hell isn't it... I guess that should have been thought of before they destroyed the Trade Towers and Thousands of lives... BOO HOO... It happens... The funny thing is, is that this is one of the MANY incidents that happen.... Get over yourselves you tree hugging hippie liberal self centered sons of b i t c h e s.. SEMPER FI DO OR DIE.
Marines saving their arses. What boot camp did they get their title at? I understand the heat of the moment. It is an excuse, but not for murdering women and children. When did combat mean you throughout all of your training to be a Marine and become a terrorist. They should have, at the very least, been stripped of the title and thrown out of the Corps.
If he wasn't guilty, then why "the maximum sentence of three months confinement, a reduction in rank and forfeiture of two-thirds of his pay."
Apparently he should have not been given any of these punishments if he were not guilty of the crime.
Good for Staff Sgt. Wuterich.....a good Marine. I'm with him.
auto762 - that's pretty much how Hitler, Stalin, Genghis Kahn, and other mindless killers operated - just kill them all. The U.S. military is supposed to be a trained force, not drooling idiots that only have a trigger finger.
He wasn't convicted of murder. He was convicted of Negligent Dereliction Of Duty.
This was murder period! You simple minded zombies couldn't come up with a thought of your own if your stupid lives depended on it. You morons that believe killing women and children is "just part of war" are complete idiots. Only cowards do that. How would you twits feel if Iraq invaded the U.S. and did the kind of things to our families that the U.S. soldiers are doing to theirs? You wouldn't like it all. Lay off the prescription pharmaceuticals and get a life!
Ooh Rah!!! Glad he's not doing any time! A lot of you bleeding hearts don't know what these young men have gone through.
Disgusting and shameful. We haven't fought a justified war since 1945 and our military is just doing more harm than good in the Middle East, in addition to wasting ridiculous amounts of taxpayer money.
Well if the European Countries would police thier hemisphere, we would not have these cases come up. The USA has to police the world because no one else does it. Let the EU take care of thier own backyards !!! Oh yeah, they are broke, so let the Americans do it. That way we can sit back and be the armchair quarterbacks and condemn those that do the job. If you do not stand behind our troops, feel free to stand in front of them !!! Semper Fi !!! God Bless Our Troops, and protect and watch over them all. Those who have not served, have no idea what it is like. Thank God that more cases like these, do not happen. Do not judge a situation that you were not in. Rules of Engagement, are like telling a Police Officer not to draw his weapon until fired upon, when walking into a bank robbery in progress.
auto 762, really? You're going to say kill them all and let God sort them out? It is true that a woman or child could possibly be a threat, but with five tours, three to Iraq and two to Afghanistan as a Cavalry Scout that has witnessed the killing of both my own and theirs. Neither me nor my Soldiers have been attacked by either a woman or a child, not one GD'd time.
I'm a 1SG and I hold my Troopers to a high standard of conduct, both in combat and garrison. I understand that innocent people can be killed during combat operations but I do not have a "kill them all let God sort them out" mentality. I grieve for the families of these women and children.
I have lost good Soldiers during this GD'd war but none of them were killed by a woman or a child. I was not there with those Marines that day but I can tell you that things happen very quickly in combat and sometimes the wrong decisions are made, I understand that very well and the best you can do is to try your best to minimize this type of thing. I do not condemn their actions, but I still grieve for the families of those that were killed.
I remember this incident. I had arrived in country in Nov/05, the situation was that they lost one young marine, thru IED. The now Staff. Sergent, this was his first combat engagement with the enemy. The chatter many of us heard from others at C-7 Camp Warrior. Was that payback was done, and his squad was fragging houses, then entering with full automatic weapons fire at close range. When you give an order, and you are the senior enlisted man in charge. You are supposed to be clear headed, and go with your squad into the area, and make clear sound decisions. It appears this young marine made some very bad mistakes, and did not consider the ramifications of this event. After this was heard throughout this part of the country. We were dealing with an increase in rockets and mortar fire at C-7, and C7-A McHenry. Many of our guys were killed and wounded for life, from this marines actions. Sadly it is about reaping and sowing, or what comes around goes around. I thought this marine would have had to serve life in a federal prison. Many of us fellow marines could not believe, he ordered his squad to ask questions later! You must be thinking at all times, especially when you are trained wearing the uniform, of the eagle, globe and anchor.
I remember this incident. I had arrived in country in Nov/05, the situation was that they lost one young marine, thru IED. The now Staff. Sergent, this was his first combat engagement with the enemy. The chatter many of us heard from others at C-7 Camp Warrior. Was that payback was done, and his squad was fragging houses, then entering with full automatic weapons fire at close range. When you give an order, and you are the senior enlisted man in charge. You are supposed to be clear headed, and go with your squad into the area, and make clear sound decisions. It appears this young marine made some very bad mistakes, and did not consider the ramifications of this event. After this was heard throughout this part of the country. We were dealing with an increase in rockets and mortar fire at C-7, and C7-A McHenry. Many of our guys were killed and wounded for life, from this marines actions. Sadly it is about reaping and sowing, or what comes around goes around. I thought this marine would have had to serve life in a federal prison. Many of us fellow marines could not believe, he ordered his squad to ask questions later! You must be thinking at all times, especially when you are trained wearing the uniform, of the eagle, globe and anchor.
Danny Boy MW's Farmer--thank you for your service.
Auto 762 is probably some very young boy sitting in his mother's basement--probably not worth anyone's time. The key thing here is that this person plead guilty in return for no jail time. The judge wanted to give him jail time, but could not because of the plea agreement.
If this man plead guilty--then he sure as heck was guilty. In fact, that he plead guilty despite all the errors in the investigation, the questionable testimony against him, and the delay in bringing the case to trial actually tells us that he is guilty of a whole heck of a lot more than he was found guilty of.
People do not plead guilty with a weak case--they plead guilty when they know that otherwise things will be much harder on them (unless they've had bad counsel, and this person has good counsel). It's pretty clear that there was a whole lot more here that we don't know about--and that the defense team didn't want it all coming out. Hence, the guilty plea.
This fellow got away with cold-blooded murder. We have rules of engagement for a reason--and this person did not follow them. I am pleased to know that Wuterich is not characteristic of our soldiers (this did not happen often), and that Danny Boy MW's Farmer is much more characteristic.
Well, if there is ultimately justice, and I do hope that there will be, this person will find himself in the company of the WTC bombers when he does his time in Hades. Oh, and just for those who are too dumb to know it--Iraq wasn't involved in the WTC bombings. Our "allies" in the Middle East were. We went to war in Iraq to confuse the US populace on that matter--otherwise, you'd be wondering why we are still chummy with the country whose people attacked us.
The sargent should not have been prosecuted at all. The members of his squad should face prison.
Why you ask? Simple, when I went through army basic training it included classes on the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) and the Geneva Convention. These Marines were well aware that an order to kill unarmed civilions and especially children was an illegal order. Had I bneen there and a FOUR STAR GENERAL ordered me to shoot a child I would have politely but forceably told the general where he could shove his order.
We prosecuted German guards at the Jewish death canps for accepting those same kinds of illegal orders. So why do the squad members walk away scot free?
We have come full circle. We prosecute our soldiers for killing civilians. Ignoring that in WWII we blanket bombed German and Japanese with fire bombs burning and killing millions of civilains. As a last resort we dropped the A-Bomb on 2 Japanese cities killing 100's of thousands of civilians.
In war we dehumanize our enemies. WWII - The only good Jap was a dead JAP. Korea & VN - The only good gook was a dead gook. Ironic since we were fight for and with "gooks".
Now we are again faced with another enemy that values life even less than our past enemies. They surround themselves with women and children so that if we strike the court of public opinion goes against us. They cry that we abuse our prisioners while at the same time theyt behead ALL their prisoners. Where is the public outrage for Daniel Pearl? Where is the public outrage when one of our soldiers is captured and beheaded??? We are supposed to observe the Geneva Conventioin while they slaughter the unarmed.
If the Muslims truely wanted to end the war they could do so by not supporting the murderers among them. But they say NOTHING!!!
We can all sit here and second guess what this person did. The fact remains that in battle things happen. We are dealing with an enemy that uses Civilians as cover, children and woman as bombs and Men who attack then run and pretend to be an innocent bystander.
If you've been there or at least seen some unbiased liberal coverage you can clearly see insurgents attack military personal then walk off with no weapons as if nothing happened. When you deal with people like that, the chance for innocent people getting hurt increases dramatically.
The only way we can reduce the possibility of this occurring is for the Iraq people to stand up and point out the terrorists and 2 by us not being there.
Service? Am I missing something because last I checked service was when I would go next door and mow the elderly widow's lawn and when she'd come out and try to give me $5 I'd refuse it. Men and women in our armed forces get paid. So stop saying because those of us that didn't "serve" have no right to pass judgement. We pay their god damn salaries. If it wasn't for us these murderers would be working behind a 7-11 counter somewhere.
Let me set this straight. From what I've read about the case, the Marines were told the houses were hostile and approached them as such. It was only after the action that they found civilians inside.
This whole thing seems like a tragic accident with no intent by the marines to act inappropriately and that this one Sgt. was hung out to dry because of what he said "shoot first ask questions later" and some how that quote ended up in the press and quickly became a public relations mess for the US.
These guys didn't decide to go frag a bunch of women and children to get there rocks off. Therefore, no case. That SGT. should have fought this tooth and nail.
Lord,
it does not matter if it was intentional or not, They killed civilians, end of discussion. It is a war crime to do so under any circumstances. The Sarge got off too easy.
@vietnam
no one has the right to police anywhere but their own nation and territorial waters.
@AC
glad to see we have a confirmed psychopath on the vine now. That is the exact same belief that Bin Laden had, kill all American's; the women, the children, the men, the disabled, and everyone in between, kill em all.
@Geowil
I have to disagree with you. Civilians are killed all the time in war accidentally. It's called "collateral damage." It sucks but there it is.
Moreover, it's not a war crime at least the "unintentional accidental" killing. It's the INTENT that matters here. No INTENT, no crime.
It's as simple as that.
Bull@!$%#, proof wearing a uniform is almost always a get out of jail free card.
Dave: Where did you serve?
It doesn't matter where or if anyone served.
Just keep trying to justify murder.
I served in the military and I think the whole thing is a disgusting mess. It basically says that any military personel can tell his men to go on a rampage killing civilians and he will only get a slap on the wrist. They should have made an example of ALL of them.
Sandy: Neither of us were there.... I am trying my best to have faith it was a cluster flub..... Mental Health issue..... But plain old murder from our own.......... please God NO!
Tyler: Grow up. It does matter when passing judgement on a man in uniform.... How many lives have you taken? How many wars have you fought? Do you understand what it's like to come under enemy fire? Have you had to hold your friends guts inside? Let the military handle their own. What do you think happens in war? People get killed and sometimes it does seem like murder to those who have a friggin' job to do.
If this had happened here all you apologists and defenders would be calling for these soldiers heads on a stick regardless whether they served in the Middle East or not. At least I didn't see this swelling of support for the solider who was killing homeless people last week. But since it was Iraqis and not American citizens it's defendable.
Some Lame Name Here: Same gave all, all gave some and some never came home..... Mental Health is an issue when some have killed to the point of no return. How would you feel just taking one life?
Fed UP is right. Unless you have mindlessly slaughtered dozens of unarmed civilians you have no right to opine.
By the way Fed up, how many have you killed?
JournalJournal: Obviously, I must leave this conversation to all armchair warriors..... I wonder why they even have the UCMJ?
I can understand if you're uncomfortable with the question. Have a good day.
Easy to justify these guys as being guilty, how many of you have been deployed, seen combat, know what the rules of engagement are? Armchair lawyers......
journal journal - your comments were out of line and uncalled for. Unless you have served you have no right to call out someone who has. Despicable!
That's a good point.
I'm sorry for all the families of the victims and soilders involved who suffered from such a terrible tragedy.
So what did we accomplish over there again?? What a @#$%ing mess.
Dave, Your an Idiot, unless you were there you can't understand the crap that goes on. I am not saying that women and children should be shot, but do you realize that at that point the enemy was not clothed in a uniform and hid behind women and children shooting at Marines or Army, and Navy Seabees that were on the ground. I know they did their jobs, and it was HELL on them. Hoorah Marines, now they get to live with this the rest of their lives while you get to bash them for them doing there jobs. I bet you are the type of person who believes we got what we deserved with the twin towers. Enjoy your life... Thank a Vet.
To all the people who are justifying the killing just because we have been at war there and "taking a life changes a person", each person is fighting their own war. Would you defend if an Iraqi soldier who saw an American soldier kill civilians, went on a rampage and killed a bunch of American civilians in Iraq?
Sandy, Missouri
Shame on you! Useless comment.
"Fed up", good post...No one making these "Shame on you Comments" , has ever seen the hardship of war and "The Fog" of battle! War is chaos and a rolling atrocity...innocents die, it is a horror for all involved. I love all these morality lectures...the closest any of these people have been to combat is watching "Saving Private Ryan", on their 60" flat panel safe and sound at home. Yes, serious tragedy all around. but, please folks grow up!
Imagine that the Iraqi military invaded and one of their soldiers murdered your wife, your brother or your child in cold blood, execution style. Then imagine they got nothing but a slap on the wrist. This is what the families of the victims must be feeling right now. There is no excuse, we shouldn't even be there in the first place. I blame our government just as much as I blame this man.
Wearing a uniform doesn't give you right to kill whoever you want.
Good thing that we have the video of the soldiers who are pissing on their casulties (); some of these people would make us believe that that is all 'fog of war'. But you know, I can't pass any judgement because I haven't served.
Law is equal for everyone.
@fed up,
I'll pass all the judgement I want on these murderers. My tax dollars are stapled right to the dead bodies of these innocent people they killed. No, I didn't "serve" but I'm the one footing the bill along with the majority of Americans who didn't want this stupid war.
It is easy to pass judgement on folks when you are not being fired on. Remember, one of the soldiers under his command was killed and they had to secure the area. yeah, it was bad judgement to shoot everyone that they see, but the ones that they were going after are not wearing uniforms. How can you sit in judgement when you haven't walked in a soldier's shoes? If you have never been in a combat situation where you don't know friend from foe than you just need to shut up. Those that are sitting thinking the man should be serving life remind me of the ones that spit on the military coming back from Vietnam. These guys are in a hell of a bad situation and they react as they can to save their lives and the lives of the men that are with them. Unless you lived it, you can't judge it.
Dem in Texas-2291575- if you never served then you do have no right to pass judgment one iota. As a vet I can tell you these guy sign all the rights and personnel protection you civilians hold dear to protect us all that enjoy what we have. Yes these are hard times for the USA but fact remains the rest of the world is much worse then us.
Oh by the way your lame excuse is a joke, "I'm footing the bill" is a typical BS argument. Your only footing 1/312,910,000 of each dollar spent.... Surely the other 312,909,999 have their own opinions.....
Gee, I think 3 months for 19 deaths is fair.
The equation 19 dead = 3 months incarceration obviously doesn't add up. It sounds outrageous, in fact, IT IS. But it was outrageousness in a sea of abhorrent violence that had engulfed the entire area and destroyed any sense of logic or fairness. I understand the Iraqi anger over the length of the sentence. I am angered over the selective nature of their outrage. Iraqi's were responsible for terrible incidents of shocking violence and torture over the last 10 years (anyone remember Fallujah?). I can remember dozens of seperate incidents where Iraqis gathered and celebrated the death of our soldiers, desecrating their bodies, and crying foul when we responded in equally vicious ways.
I don't support the behavior in this incident, but I find the duplicity in their response to be disingenuous. Glad we're outta there!!! Welcome home Marines/soldiers. May the celebration and the healing begin!
Would any of us have felt any better (or worse) if those 19 dead were Marines? Really?
In the stench of this war where the "bad guys" dressed like common civilians, being 'edgy' was probably the wise thing to do. Being a living survivor [that day] of that crappy conflict was probably high on every participants bucket list.
Now let's get our troops home and give them the credit the Vietnam-era heroes did not get. Semper fi!
19 less possible suicide bombers good riddens!
Your a @!$%# if you think he should get any more. You go buddy, you've given our country what it asked for.
YES... "Shoot First. Ask questions later", that is the best option for a life-death situation.
Cops in this country kill people every day and it is almost a given that they will never spend any time in jail, or even lose a minutes pay for it. The excuses are always examined and manipulated, in my opinion, to justify the killing. Yes, women and children are killed by cops too.
We sent our young people over there to kill people. We invaded their land. We sent guard units consisting of shoe salesmen, waiters, teachers and grocery clerks and expected them to be turned into killers and "do their duty." If they fail they are cowards...and ruined in society for the rest of their lives. If they are crippled they spend the rest of their lives wondering what they could have done, could have had. They are sometimes sprayed with the blood of friends they learn to care for.
Well. they killed. They did their job. They survived...or was that not part of the deal? The enemy had no uniforms but they could pretend at will they were just there to watch...whatever. When you fight for your country as the Iraq people were doing...the whole family gets involved. Think of the Revolutionary war.
I support the soldiers in their efforts to survive. I condemn Bush for lying to them, and us, to get us to invade Iraq. The invaded have a right to fight to live and so do the invaders. Damn the governments for making this a fact. Put the blame on the men who sent them to war...not the kids fighting for their lives...and our ability to drive nice cars.
War is dirty, evil, and nice people get killed. If you do not accept that then insist on a government who will do whatever they can to prevent war. That is of course my opinion. A lot of kids died to insure me the right to have one.
i would like to thank frank wuterich good job thanks for your services
you are sick
The Iraqi's should seek to have him extradited to the Hague for trial in front of a war crimes tribunal.
Surely this monster will roast in hell for the murder of all those little children.
Let's see, this is a war zone. Enemy dresses as civilians, then unknowns plus children and women in building. 50-50 chance of getting blown up, shot and killed and our military leaders and politicians have tied our fighters hands. Hell, I would of told my men the same thing-- Shoot first, ask questions later. He was correct. Our non-supportive government officials and military leaders have really hog tied our own warriors hands and then expect them to walk down a road or into a village and get blown up or shot to hell. Sounds like Korea and Vietnam all over again. WELCOME HOME MARINES, SOLDIERS AND NAVY !!!! LET THE RAG HEADS HAVE THAT GOD FORSAKEN LAND AND LETS TRY TO REBUILD OUR OWN GREAT COUNTRY.
THANK YOU FRANK WUTERICH FOR A JOB WELL DONE AND I WISH YOU AND YOUR DAUGHTERS A LONG AND HAPPY LIFE. WELOME HOME WHEN YOU GET HERE. HANG TOUGH AND AIRBORNE ALL THE WAY --1951.
War is hell. God Bless all of our Service men and Women who serve and protect.
If he wasn't guilty of any crime, then why "the maximum sentence of three months confinement, a reduction in rank and forfeiture of two-thirds of his pay."
Apparently he should have not been given any of these punishments if he were not guilty of the crime.
We can't debate this issue, because most of the people defending this sentence are in favor of genociding all arabs/muslims. No matter what the crime, they'll want more blood of women and children who worship differently or who are a different race. It's pretty much that simple.
soldiers have no obligation to trust that a family of anti american middle easterns arent wired with bombs. even children. if i was over there i cannot honestly say i would have done any different.
The military should be held 100% accountable for the crimes these people commit once they are released out onto the streets back here in the U.S. and completely responsible financially to the surviving members of each and every family directly related to the victims these monsters murder and then blame it on post traumatic stress syndrome once they are discharged.
Special set of equations work for Americans that kill foreigners in foreign land. All foreigners are terrorists and have no rights. Afterall, Bin Laded didn't punish his people that killed foreigners?
Whoa there Marinecorp, I'm sure you're completely fine with the slaughter of un-armed women of children, but those of us with common sense and above a 75 point IQ know better. Of course what would I expect from a person who's entire career is spent being told how to think, and to never think for themselves. It's ok, leave the thinking to those of us who can do it, and you can continue being an obedient puppy following the commands like a brainless dolt.
if you fight a war half-assed you get crap. war is not pretty, war is not fair and war is necessary. we havent fought a real war in centuries and it shows. when the enemy kills anything that moves but we need to ask if we can kill that guy holding a gun at us, you know we have already lost. if civilians get in the way then they will die as a result, we should have conquered iraq, afghanistan and more but we are the only country to wage war on foreign soil but not take any territory for our own. we are weak as a nation due to politics and a weak society. i will never let anyone tell me (as a country) how i can defend my land or conquer land. life is not fair so stop trying to make it, humanity wont accept it, we are only animals.
Why is it,that this story reminds me of stories about the German Waffen SS entering Polish or Russian villages and killing every living being ?
I have never carried a weapon in a war zone. So I will never judge the actions of others who have. But if it me coming home alive to my family or them i'm coming home!
The My Lai defense is just as phony here as it was in Viet Nam. This Wuterich guy and his pals are guilty of murder or manslaughter by any civilized standard, and yet the Marine Corps has essentially acquitted all of them…it’s an absolute disgrace and a stain on America. And we're supposed to think of the Marines as heroes? Some are, but many of them are simply ignorant, murderous, mercenaries who will wind-up making tons of money working for private defense contractors like Blackwater; and we the taxpayers pick up the tab for the whole stinking mess. I’m an Army vet from a previous generation and these troops, along with their officers, make me want to puke.
Watch what happens. This guy gets 'off', but the poor bastards that pissed on the dead Iraqi bodies will probably get 10 years each.
If you join the Corps or the Army you need to have brains, cojones and honor. The profession of arms is a profession and there is no room for armatures and wannabees.
This Staff Sergeant was lacking in at least two of the above qualities, courage and honor. He shamed himself, the Corps and the United States. He used the most powerful weapon he had, his Marines with no control sending them on a mission with orders that can easily be construed as illegal. That his young Marines followed them is shameful but the greatest shame goes to this Staff Sergeant.
War is hell. If you are not brave enough to act like a professional you should stay home. Follow me.
amateurs
I can't help but think that this man has the same mental issues going on that results in spree and serial killings when they get back home to the United States. Recent examples include Itzcoatl Ocampo and Benjamin Barnes.
The problem that some of you don't understand is that you can't put civilian laws in a military situation. First, he was in a war not down at the 7-11 trying to get a big gulp. Second, the squad was fired on and he responded in a what he thought was a way to keep his men alive. Yes, it was overdone and he should of worded it different but it is easy for you bleeding hearts that have never been in his situation to cry foul. I think it is sad that the women and children lost their lives but like the saying goes war is hell. One thing that you people need to realize is that the ones that they were fighting could shoot, hide the gun and act like they were just looking out the window for the noise. It was not a scene out of a movie where one side was the Americans and the other had the Iraqies on it. They are in a city and the bullets can come from anywhere. He had a lapse of judgement that cost 20 people their lives but he did what he did under the heat of battle. It is easy to sit in your chair at your computer and say under civilian law he should be punished but he isn't a civilian and he falls under the UCMJ and it is under that that his punishment falls. The judges are military and they understand his mindset at the time.
I understand that being in a war is a hard thing, however, he chose to participate; the murdered women and children did not! YOU would be screaming for his blood if he had done this to AMERICANS! They didn't dock his pay because he has three children, but HIS children are still alive. I feel sorry for them, because they are at the mercy of a man who thinks it's okay to murder innocent women and children.
1-Lung, lose the slurs.
You're suspended for a day for violating #5 of the Code of Honor.
Three months!! I am outraged at the hypocrisy of this nation and its armed services. This phony trial and sentence just gave more ammunition to terrorists for recruitment. We'll be paying for this injustice for years to come.
Look at the charges. The 3 months are for "dereliction of duty".
Sir, the hypocrisy lies in the fact that we were promised after 9/11 that justice would be served and terrorism would be defeated. Here we are over ten years later still discussing terrorism. If I were President on 9/11 there would be no need of recruitment stations for terrorists. War is a terrible thing and sometimes our soldiers have to do unsavory things to survive. The "innocent civilians" myth has cost us many lives and limbs in Viet Nam, Iraq, and Afghanistan. Those who have been there understand. Let's thank this man and all who serve for defending our right to our opinions and freedom to express them.
By the logic here, the people who died on 9/11 were justified killings, as there are no 'innocent civilians'. Also by that logic, what we consider an act of terrorism is not terrorism but a valid war strategy. It works both ways. If we can justify killing their unarmed civilians, they can justify killing ours.
We cannot defeat terrorism by committing terrorism ourselves.
Taziar, I believe he is trying to make the point that our military is clearly defined, IE Uniforms, symbols etc it's very clear what is military and what is not, obviously 9/11 attacked no military target at all, it was blatant terrorism. Now had our military attacked Iraq, then hid in plain clothes no different from any other average Joe, then yes they would be justified in killing "civilian" americans when they have no idea if we are combatants or not. Why is it that we self-loathe our country so much that we can sit on our couches and very easily point blame and cry-foul. While the atrocities commited by other countries to ours are "Justified" because we are a democratic society, I call BS on that and say you need to question why you are still in this country.
"FREEDOM--- I will never explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of freedom that I provide, then question the manner in which I provide it!" Semper Fi Marine!
Question the freedom you provide, Marine.
- Veteran
Questioning the freedom I provide is not my job, my job is to provide you with the freedom you cherish. I swore an oath as any other service member to obey the orders of the officers appointed over me, If I wanted to question the freedom I would have gone to college!
And if you believed that you're not very bright. How do you defeat terrorism? It's a tactic! What treaty will Terrorism sign to end the war on Terrorism? When will terror cease to be a human emotion? When will governments stop using terrorism (because that's where the term and tactic originated, with various governments, most of them Western states)? Will fear be defeated in general, or just terror?
How silly to think you can defeat a tactic or emotion "once and for all". OMFG our citizens are stupid.
Next we'll be at war with postpartum depression and child birth.
I LOVE how you assert there are no such thing as innocent civilians...right, because 3 and 5 year old kids are the enemy. You're a sick sociopath.
Devenshayde, if you don't like our military and what it does then put a rag on your silly head and go back where you came from. You're a disgrace and a wimp.
devonshayde, the terrorist don't need a reason to attack us, because they have always hated us, so don't blame us for their evilness !
And exactly how many Iraqi civilians were put on trial for setting IEDs or killing American soldiers? Or for killing Iraqi civilians?
At least one hundred times more "innocent" Iraqi civilians were killed by other Iraqi civilians than were killed by US troops. War is he!! as it should be. Otherwise too many people will want to play at it! Hard to play by the rules when the other side doesn't.
Irate Ken: I agree with most of what you're saying except for the GENOCIDE of the Iraqi people perpetuated by our satanic leadership.... Politicians beat the drums of war..... Soldiers answer the call and well... you get the rest....
fed up. Most of the killings of Iraqi civilians even now after US troops have departed are done by other Iraqi civilians. I would say the US is to blame only in so far as it being a mistake to allow the Iraqis to control their own destiny as opposed to letting a ruthless dictator do it for them!
Far fewer casualties with Saddam Hussein in charge.
Iraqi "citizens" weren't setting of IED's, Ken. Al Quada was in charge of that, after Bush Co. invited them in via their moronic "Bring it on" crotch grabbing. The people of Iraq were caught in the middle, their country's infrastructure and economy ruined. What a nightmare for them.
Irate Ken.... Amen brother.
Yeah, maybe we should have shot them by firing squad just like the French Resistance under the Nazis. They too were deemed "terrorists".
It's easy to say the Iraqis are guilty for this and that as they fought us. We invaded their country. If the shoe was on the other foot, would you say the same of Americans who fought back against an invading army?
I don't think so.
Far fewer casualties with Saddam ?? Are you kidding ?? He killed THOUSANDS of his OWN people. Getting rid of him alone saved countless lives. Unfortunately a lot of lives had to be lost to do it.
I have never been in any situation that many of our brave men and woman of this country faced there so I will certainly not be one to judge their actions while they were risking their lives for the freedoms I enjoy that so many take for granted.
KW you're a little short, it's estimated he killed over 2 million.
KW: No lives had to be lost for anything. Iraq was and is not our problem. If he killed 10 million, I wouldn't have supported that stinking, lying war. It is not our job to police the world and "get rid" of anyone who does not attack us.
Unfortunate doesn't begin to describe what went on there. WE are responsible for our actions because WE invaded. WE started it and WE stayed there for years.
It's inexcusable and we will pay dearly for this fiasco for many years to come.
Welcome Home Marine!!!!
I agree with yakfitguy. We should be guarding "OUR" borders not Iraqs or anywhere else. (I am the father of a Marine and felt I was blessed and still feel lucky that he returned home from both Iraq and Afghanistan). I also think the man (our so called leader and chief) who decided without the United Nations sanction to go ahead and put our nation and our boys and women in there by lieing to our nation, should have been the first one to step foot on Iraq if he were so enthused about going to war there again. I wouldn't have missed him at all. Iraq was just a smoke screen, chest thumping answer by the Bush administration to make americans think he was doing something about Al Quada after 9/11. All the effort should have been placed on Bin Ladan all along from the start. Bin Ladan and Al Quada brought it to us on 9/11 just like the Japenese did at Pearl Harbor in December 1941 and finding him and any like him were worth any and all efforts to find. But not this nations debt and all the lives wasted in Iraq.
"...if he killed 10 million, I wouldnt have supported that stinking lying war..."
The Germans never attacked us either, glad your Dumb A$$ wasnt around to Bitc$ about everything in WW2, we'd be flying swastikas over the white house right now, and you would have got your wish about not invading Iraq.
Right, us collapsing their government and starting a power struggle that resulted in the death of about a million Iraqi bystaders didn't work out real well for the citizens of Iraq. I'm sure God blesses us for it.
irate ken, i could not have said it better myself !
Wuterich is a war criminal pure and simple. No commander or squad leader ever uses the terminology to 'shoot first and ask questions later'. This statement also does not exonerate the other members of the squad receiving orders. Doesn't anyone remember Nuremberg? Committing acts based on an unlawful order cannot exonerate the recipients of that order. Yet, our military justice system says the exact opposite: go ahead and kill civilians and we'll exonerate you. Maybe Wuterich should have just said, "I couldn't see the enemy in the darkness inside these houses, so I just decided to kill everyone inside."
War Criminal= Oxymoron
Just another case of lack of accountability within the US military establishment, and of the civilian sectors involved as well. One cannot forget the Blackwater incident where civilians were killed - no accountability, then there was Abu Ghraib - no real accountability as only low level fall guys were punished, Haditha and so on and so on. The US military, and civilian leadership, has to learn the well known fact that in some cases harsh justice is required to keep troops in line and cognizant of their responsibilities and consequences, and similarly the leadership cadre is also responsible/culpable for actions and decisions and liable to punitive action. At least that is the case in most professional militaries. In continuing down this whitewash road of no accountability, or only low level accountability, one is only ensuring more of the same is to come.
Abu Ghraib was a joke! Those prisoners should have had daily doses of high pressure hoses. Football hazing was tougher than that crap!
Dear Veteravet:
This is what happens when you allow the media to have a front row seat in a war. Aids come from unnatural sex acts, just like journalists, who infect society with liberalism to the point of treason. God help us in the next war !
2 nationalist (not patriots) above me :)
Oh give me a break. They kill innocent civillians including Americans every day. It is war for heaven sakes. We cannot expect war to always go as planned. Why is it we are the ones that have to always be tried for crimes but this country will never be tried for the attrocities they have done to civillians during this war either. Heaven forbid the attrocities they have done to our military men as well. You people need a clue. War is not easy and innocent people get hurt. It is war and that is the way it goes. Trying cops and military people sorry for following orders is wrong. Sorry but I am all for the soldiers in this case. They have been railroaded as usual.
Dee, to order your troops to shoot first and ask questions later is not the mark of a professional but of a coward.
I never shot at women or children..wow what a gentleman
What is that line from the movie" what a gentleman, I guess he takes the dishes out the sink before he pees in it"
Sheila: It happens in war.... like it or not... there's no fairy dust to subdue combatants that hide amongst women and children.
It states in the report that no fire was returned during the 45 minute incident. So it appears that the culprits were long gone.
Well, that's Imperialism for you! It's a wonder that they didn't give Wuterich the Congressional Medal of Honor!!! Meanwhile, Bradley Manning will probably be executed. Imperialist justice. Ho hum....
Fed up - it happens but the killing of noncombatent women and children is not done by professionalsw but by scared children. Murder of babies is not acceptable and is the act of a coward, not a Marine or a Soldier with any honor whatsoever.
These Marines have shamed themselves, the Corps and their country.
Wait, women and children are dead too--for three months?
WTF...
I mean, if it were just men I might say you know they couldn't tell if they were dangerous or not.
Most were killed by grenades just thrown randomly into houses. Course they then went in and sprayed bullets everywhere to make sure. It was a war crime. But they had a jury of jarheads like them .. what did you expect.
Michael - serve your country first. Go into combat. Survive. Then come back and voice your opinion.
Semper fi.
Michael, may I say on behalf of all the Jarheads that have served to protect your freedom of speech, F**k you. You sit in judgment in your ivory tower, never serving, never putting your life on the line for others. And to condemn an entire branch of the military for the actions of a few? With that attitude, may I counter by saying the citizens deserved what they got because one of their own killed the first Marine with an IED. Its that kind of narrow minded thinking that keeps any rational dialogue for being discussed. As a former Marine, your lack of respect for the men and women that serve honorably makes me sick.
Well said Michael. I can't believe my tax dollars go to this kind of @!$%#, its disgusting. We need to make huge cuts in our military, ASAP. I respect WWII vets, I have no respect for any of these soldiers unless they actually deserve it (some do, they aren't all bad). I knew too many guys in high school who only joined for the money or to go "kill some ragheads".
And you really think invading Iraq and Afghanistan had anything to do with protecting our free speech? That's really funny, honestly, I wish someone would explain how that works. If anything, we've created more terrorists because they hate us for invading their countries and killing their friends and family.
plb618, you could better disguise your lack of knowledge by keeping your ignorant comments to yourself. You haven't a clue.
too many of our soldiers today are arrogant and ignorant with a highly UNDESERVED sense of entitlement! Just serving does not earn you the right to be respected. Serving our country WELL and remaining humble about it does!
FYI, some of the most deadly suicide bombing attempts were by women. Vaginas don't prevent you from killing and children in foreign countries are not coddled like they are in the US.
michael 3786236, if a grenade was thrown in a house then everyone was killed, there are no survivors so how can they go inside the house (because there is no longer a house standing there) and finish killing anyone ? you are so stupid !
I am tired of seeing those people being held up as paragons of virtue, deserving of unquestioned respect, simply because they could not get a real job (i.e. one that contributes to society) and joined the military instead.
I suppose there are exceptions but it seems pretty obvious, (both from the story and the comments above), that the military is not attracting the best and the brightest of our youth.
Chris, Tim - I wouldn't have any of my children serve in the Corps with people like these Marines. They behaved stupidly, like cowards and bad tempered children. If you are a professional in the profession of arms you need to act like an honorable professional at all times. Even if it is at risk of your own life. That is the code. Death before dishonor (is that what that Staff Sergeant;s tattoo says?). The killing of these noncombatants had no honor and dishonors both the Marine Corps and the United States. War is hell and is no place for cowards. Follow me.
Phat Bob, the military does contrubute to this country. It is the military that ensures that this country stays free. Our navy keeps control of the sees and our ground and air troops keeps our country strong. Without a strong military, our country would not be what it is today. We would either be speaking German or Japanese. So, think that the easy way out is going military if you want to, but being in the military is not that easy. There is no overtime, you go to countries and are under orders to to things that you might not want to. I mean who wants to be in the desert and get sand in your underwear? The reason that this is done is for love of country. Phat Bob, what job do you do that contributes to society? If it wasn't for those not so bright youth that are in the military, you might be having a different idea of society. It is people like you that make me sick!!! You complain about the military but would cry if you didn't have the freedoms that you do have. It is the military that ensures that you have the right to complain.
Being paranoid (even somewhat justifiably so) is no excuse for wanton slaughter and hyper aggression.
You see it all too frequently in our overly militarized police departments as well. Over reactions to threats (or, more often, simply the mistaken perception of a threat) leading to abuse and outright murder of civilians.
This behaviour is unacceptable from either our armed forces or our local PD's
By engaging in these professions you are voluntarily accepting taking on a greater degree of danger to yourself than a civilian. More responsibility and more danger is your job. Indeed, that is your very purpose, to accept and take on that danger and those responsibilities so that civilians don't have to, and can instead go about their daily lives as productive citizens.
There is a reason so many have lost so much respect for LE and military over the last half century and that loss of respect has actually greatly elevated the danger these folks face.
It may not be too late to EARN that respect of the citizenry back. But it must be earned, it won't just be given.
Good luck all!
GML
GovtMedialLiars, why don't you take on one of those jobs and show us how it's done! It's easy to say how things should be done and how wrong it was when something goes wrong, but put yourself out there day after day where each encounter may be the end of your life! Base your indigntion on partial facts provided by a media that is meant to invoke an emotional response to drive readership. Fed Up has it right, Iraqi's killed more Iraqis than the U.S. soldiers on the ground. Everyone is civilian in Iraq and Afghanistan when they get killed, but the way I see it, everyone without a Uniform in those countries may be the enemy or an active supporter.
He didn't shoot enough, 100 Iraqis for everyone of our boys! He was 76 short!
Why would anyone, military or otherwise, want to strive for your respect sir? To earn respect, one has to have accomplished something honorable, and /or noteworthy. What have you ever done that qualifies?
Like the fact that he didn't shoot at women and children make what he did any better. I hope this guy gets raped in prison.
you can tell which posts are from people that have never been to war. they haven"t got ANY idea what it's like to be constantly trying to stay alive by not being blown away by ied, or ambushed by insugents who use women and children as shields. thank God we still have people that will step forward for us all.
What? I'd prefer no army than an army that cant identify proper targets. Children?? Its kinda hard to hide behind one. These are trained soldiers. You think SWAT goes in and shoots through the hostage? F*ck em right? Shouldn't have use the hostage a shield.......
Swat deal with one offender. This was a fire fight slick. They were attacked they returned fire. How many civilians do yo think were killed during our bombing of Libya? How many have been killed in drone attacks.
I'll bet you have a Jesse Macbeth for President sticker.
Did you even bother to read the article? It said they took NO fire...... So it cant be a fire fight with only one side shooting..... IDIOTS...
Sam I guess this didn't matter "....Staff Sgt. Frank Wuterich led the Marine squad in 2005 that killed 24 Iraqis in the town of Haditha after a roadside bomb exploded near a Marine convoy, killing one Marine and wounding two others...." good grief.
Yeah... thanks for the insult. I read the article, and the actual after action report. Why do you think, as politically astute as the military is... that this Marine was not tried for murder or even manslaughter. Because there was no evidence! They did not stand 24 people up against a wall and shoot them.
Did you know the IED was remotely detonated? So some one in the crowd hit the switch. I am not defending their actions but you quasi humanitarians never seem to be upset about drone attacks, bombs or any of the other activities that has gone on over the last three years.
For over the last seven years they have been trying to nail this young Marine and all they came up with was dereliction of duty. So now they have a scapegoat ... feel better?
Come on SAM 1938777 How about that from Navy vet and fed up??
Fed up - they took no fire, what part of that don't you get. They lost a man to a trap and lost control. They acted like bad tempered children and not like the professionals they preported to be. They killed babies! War is hell and is no place for those not suficeintly brave or intelligent or lacking in honor to be professionals. Follow me.
Our military is the finest in the history of the world. The libs on this site make me sick. terrorists hide among civilians, shoot at our guys from mosques, hospitals and schools, yet we are the bad guys when there is civilian death? These cowards don't wear uniforms and rely on pond scum like you back at home to win the war for them with your anti-American BS.
You are the reason we lost in Vietnam. You make me sick.
Obama Lies - and you are no prize yourself. You decide you know what "libs" are thinking without having a clue. You post garbage after garbage and blame "libs" for your ignorance. Some of us "libs" had friends and loved ones in Vietnam and Iraq. You don't have the right to judge anyone but yourself but my guess it that isn't going to happen since you would actually have to look in the mirror. Many of us are don't condoning or condemning the acts of this soldier. War is a very different animal and unless you have served I don't believe you are in a position to judge those who have. Stop pretending to know what us "libs" think since you don't have a damned clue. You frankly don't have a clue about much!
And no, "libs" are not the reason we lost in Vietnam! Moronic comment and sick doesn't begin to describe the way you make most sane people feel!
Yeah! lib are the reason we lost in Viet Nam. The BS rules of engagement, and not being able to follow the gooks north. We should have won that conflict if it wasn't for our cowardly congress!
actually you shouldn't have been over there in the first place
It's terrible how "hawks" from the Vietnam War talk about how "doves" destroyed the morale of the military at that time, the only morale destroyed was their own. If so many people opposed the war, it shouldn't even have been waged in the first place. Get up and look in the military mirror and see if you are any different from any group you were fighting. If ur saying i need to be in the U.S. military to judge my country, ur wrong. Because im part of the country that represents it's military by paying to keep the war going. I'm not going to judge foreigners overseas for their actions, but I sure as hell have a right to judge my own people, and we cant fight terror with terror.
Until you are in the same situation, you shouldn't judge.
That's why I don't judge the brave individuals who guarded death camps during WWII. They must have been very scared, and they were just concerned about making it home alive. Anyone who says that they were committing acts of unspeakable evil should shut their pie hole unless they've served as a death camp guard themselves.
That's why I don't judge child molesters, who knows what they have been through? Oh wait, yes I do, @!$%# em.
You all Try ON the shoe's before shooting off your mouths. What about the 3500 killed at ground zero!!!How soon you forget!!!!
Kinda pales in comparison to the 104,000 iraqi civilians that have been killed since the war started....
yeah how many iraqi civilians were killed by iraqi civilians? just sayin
how does 3500 killed at ground zero have to do with iraq?
Tao, it's because that was the logic, and I use that word loosely, that Dubya and Cheneydick used to invade Iraq, if you don't recall. Iraq and Saddam were behind the Twin Towers attack, don't you know?
Cheney still holds to that absurd idea.
trigger , you are so right, we have a lot of traitors in this country !
how did trigger say we have traitors in this country? asking a question.......assumes being a traitor, that is not going to fly anymore. If you have a answer to the question, I would like to hear it.
Yeah..."Sandra"... isn't it a shame that we all are entitled to our own individual opinions...!
until you wear the boots ----- YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEY FACE, HAVE FACED OR WILL FACE IN THEIR DREAMS..... Marine, you are a hero-- Semper Fi-- to yourself, your fellow Marines and to your country....... I'm always grateful......k
i concur
Yeah, I'm sure the families of those brutally slaughtered are worried about this guy being able to sleep at night. They don't care that their relatives will never dream again...
Semper Fi, monkeys.
So phatman, you will be doing us all a favor and leave the country? Since you are so obviously fed up with the men and women that put their lives at risk to help us keep the rights that we have? Like the right to shoot off your mouth? Go find somewhere else.
ready: thats a typical response i've heard from many people who don't like how others show such "disrespect" to their countries, if he leaves, he IS the disloyal coward ur saying he is, if he stays but just shoots off his mouth at the U.S. from the net, he's still that coward, if he stays and tries to change the things that make this country so @!$%#ed up, he has endurance and courage to help us become truly great again. I place no blame on the military as a whole for the crimes some members comitted overseas, but we aren't acting with much liberty or human rights over there. Yes I don't know what it's like to serve in Iraq, but I do know which soldiers over there to root for: the ones that know who to shoot and when.
ready2change, last I checked it was our own government beginning to pass laws to keep me from shooting my mouth off. Pretty sure it wasn't the people of Iraq or Afghanistan...
Loyal American, there is no real army in Iraq, it is urban warfare, everyone is a possible target. FYI there is no human rights in war, thats why war has to be declared, To let anyone in the country know that their rights to land, freedom and life will be imposed upon.. the diplomacy comes after but never during.
You can judge, I have and have found these Marines lacking. Shoot first and ask questions later is the action of a coward not a professional. War is hell and if you chose to play you need to act like a person of honor or you are worse than nothing.
Their cowardice dishonors themselves, the Corps and this nation. If you are a man of honor you understand. Follow me.
Kathyrn, thank you.
All you critics..go join the military and go over there and do what you think should be done in the same situation
Most of us are too smart to join the military. I'd prefer not to fight in wars for the rich to get richer.
But then again I forget that being in a stupid looking uniform allows you to kill anyone you want. I had this jerk of a boss a while back. If I can get some stupid looking camo gear on then I bet I can put him 6 feet under without any repercussion
Hey phatman, you sound like one of those dealers from the hood. I did 2 tours in Viet Nam and another in the first gulf war. And further you are NOT SMART ENOUGH to join the military. As I read these mostly negative comments I can see the lack of education. I think that every one of you that doesn't serve in the military should have to pay a permanent 10% surtax to support those of us that protect you dumb a**es.
Too smart to join the military? You really think everyone in the military is uneducated? With your profile name, I assume intelligence isnt what kept you from serving. Enjoy your freedom of speech and type II diabetes, you fat POS. This lack of respect for you is based on your lack of respect for me and everyone else that ever served their country.
education and intelligence are not the same thing
Mr. Jim Overlin, thank you for protecting me from the Vietnamese who never attacked this country and the Iraqis who also never attacked this country. Thank you for killing others and watching your friends die senselessly. Thank you for protecting the interests of the wealthy. Thank you for blindly following orders and never questioning why. Thank you for being treated like crap and given nothing by the government that sent you to kill others after coming home. Thank you thank you thank you!
Freakin' monkey...
I have to agree being a retired 1SG , NO ONE who has not been in a REAL WAR and see death every day all around you and knowing that any minute it is you or them, should have a comment to make we have so may arm chair Lawyers, Arm chair Soilders making statments that sicken us all who have served our nation lost a limb or life and to be judged by A holes!
Larry-3835167
So American Citizens who are disgusted with this 'behavior' are A-Holes??
We simply dislike ours sinking to the level of Sadam, Inc. Congratulations for not getting it.
Sorry ... "Old_Squid"... but "YOU" do not represent the "American Citizens"... and what behavior are you referring to...?
It's people like you that most distant themselves from on a daily basis...! This is what "YOU" should be concerned about... and let us "American Citizens" to fend for ourselves...!
... and the ..."WE" you described.... would that be... you, yourself... and your imagination...?
LMAO...! at you...!!!
Well, I have served. In fact, I am still an active duty Marine. Better still, I was in Haditha up until about a week before this incident happened (at which time, I was in Al Qaim).
Anyone who says "your opinion doesn't matter unless you've been there" needs to get over himself. I've never been President of the United States, but I am highly opinionated about the stupid-ass decisions that he makes (and the last one, too).
Let me also say that nothing WE do fighting these ridiculous wars overseas has anything to do with defending YOUR liberty. I'm sorry, I wish it did, but it doesn't!
Also, what we do overseas not only doesn't make you any more free, it also exposes you to BLOWBACK. Look that term up. I hear there is a Presidential candidate that likes to talk about it.
Well said 1SG. As a former Marine and currently serving in the Army, I think it's funny all the judging that is going on. I have deployed to Somalia and Iraq along with other countries. One thing that I've realized over the years is unless your in that situation at that time then you are not able to assess what is going on.
For those that think women and children are not capable of hanius act of violence I would just like to remind everyone about the U.S. Soldiers that were drug through the streets of Mogadishu or the Americans that are beheaded on camera for the world to see. If you think only the men of that country are involved you are sadly mistaken.
Not all of us are so ignorant that we think we have the right to judge what happened that day. And you're right on, women and children are as capable of violence as anyone else. These Marines did what they felt was right at the time and their decision should have never been questioned in the first place. Thank you for your service to our country.
I question it now and forever. killing noncombatents because you are angry or frightned is not the mark of a professional but of a child or a coward. Follow me.
I support our troops.
I will NOT blindly support those, however, who commit these wanton acts of violence against innocent people. It wasn't just one innocent life taken but nearly twenty. Three months is not enough of a punishment for these people. It is up there with the actions of the drones on Collateral Murder and other such war crimes. Marines urinating on corpses?
My grandfather was a soldier. He brought honor to our country and to the US Military. Ask yourselves, do these actions bring honor to the Military and to our Country? When our soldiers commit these acts and get no punishment for them, is it any wonder that people around the world find us to be disgusting hypocrites? There will be a day when we will have to answer for these things.
As for you Fed Up, your blind defense of these Marines is honestly a disservice to yourself. You think that whatever reason you can come up with will bring back the innocent lives taken by these despicable human beings? Do you think diagnosing them with mental illness will mend the lives of those affected by this killing? Also, to you and those who say these people were being used as human shields, where is the evidence? Or are you simply wanting to rationalize it within yourself that what these marines did wasn't wrong?
I think if we are to do the right thing and convict these scumbag "Marines", we will at least be moving in the right direction.
-Also to those who say Iraqis kill more Iraqis, that has nothing to do with this act of violence. Those that kill, Iraqi or American, innocents will and should pay in one way or another.
"I will NOT blindly support those, however, who commit these wanton acts of violence against innocent people. It wasn't just one innocent life taken but nearly twenty."
I will. I wasn't there and neither were you.
"I will. I wasn't there and neither were you."
The bodies of the children were.
Hey Mark Lavalier.... do you speak in the same way that you write....?
And..."marzipansii"... what a tool you are... so were the thousands of Marines that were begeaded, and dragged throught the streets... So... what's your point...?
Oh yeah... you have none...!!!
I say Thanks for your grandfather having a backbone & doing his dutie(s) as you claim, Then what happened with your daddy ? I do see you have a jawbone, that will serve you well in government. nightnight.
There are no innocents in war, read about WWII!
My hat's off to your grandfather, Concerned Citizen88. Yes, as you say, he brought honor to this country and the military. In fact I honor him because he served, whether or not he had killed civilians (casualties of war) in the performance of his duties in the field of combat. Just like what you are doing now to those marines, you judge your grandpa despite the fact that you did not serve with him, and that your story is based on stories that you have read or had been told to you.
I served in the military for more than 20 years, but I never was in face to face combat with the enemy. I was a pencil pusher who merely - and indirectly - supported those who put themselves in the line of fire. I was never in that same field of battle where many fighting men have fought and still lived but maimed, and also those who have fought and died because they asked questions first before drawing their weapons. More often than not in the heat of battle, ConcernedCitizen, there are times when soldiers are damned if they do and damned if they don't - whether or not they survive the encounter.
I am not going to judge soldiers, airmen, sailors, or marines because I am no longer there with them, and they continue to put their lives on the line in the name of freedom and democracy.
A.C.: Is it any wonder they dragged the marines, the iraqis probably thought that their home wasn't the place for the U.S. to "fight for liberty" and the draggers wanted to make an example of that to our powerful country. Maybe im right, maybe not, but it doesn't matter. We sent soldiers over there, soldiers die on both sides in all wars. But when we start neutralizing innocent people who are forced to live among the enemy because they cant get a @!$%#ing green card then it becomes a problem. I give my blessing to all U.S. troops overseas who died, are fighting, or came back alive, but they're doing it for something impossible: to force another country to promote freedom for its people. If a country will have liberty, its own people have to decide that, and them alone. The U.S. court shouldn't show any national favoritism to this squad, whatever the circumstances. Individual responsibility was shown, and now they must pay the price.
He admitted to shooting 5 unarmed civilian men in the back as they were fleeing. They were not a threat. These were the first of the 24 civilians that were killed. Without examining any of the other killings, it seems to me that the killing of those 5 men would warrant a more severe penalty. I feel ashamed that our justice system does not punish cold blooded murder.
Unless you were in Haditha in Nov 2005, after experiencing what the squad just went through and in the environment they were in, everything written here is just an opinion of what you think should have happened. Not condoning the killing of civilians, the innoncent, Iraq was no walk in the park.
Unless you were at Auschwitz in 1944, experiencing what those young camp guards were going through, your argument that they were guilty of horrendous atrocities bears no weight whatsoever.
Were these guys professional Marines or were they scared children? Professionals would have conducted themselves otherwise. Cowards shoot first and ask questions later. Professionals act like professionals.
If you don't have the brains or cojones for the task at hand maybe you shouldn't be there.
Just Sayin'
Apples and oranges: I never heard of any Jews leaving IEDs in the camps, or shooting at the guards from behind women and children.
I have not served in the military therefore I have no intelligent insight into this matter. However, I would like to say to all the Iraqi people that most of us are just peaceful citizens like most of you. We would probably even get along without all the political BS going on in this world today. We don't want war either.
That's not true! Not serving in the military gives you more intelligent insight than any of those monkey marines could ever have!
What in the hell have you been smoking phatman!!
This crap happens and this Marine was incompetent in his position. Plain and simple
Ray-2229201.... your position doesn't look all that competent... and if Staff Sgt. Frank Wuterich were incompetent... he would have to serve time... this was not the outcome of the case... but you on the other hand... cannot read.... and you are incompetent both at the same time....!
LMAO...!
Not once in the history of the war did any civilian warn our troops about IEDS in the road ahead. This makes them complicit in the murder of our troops, thereby eliminating the non-combatant status.
Kill'em all.
"Not once in the history of the war did any civilian warn our troops about IEDS in the road ahead. "
That is completely inaccurate.
I was in Iraq in 2004-2005. On more than one occasion, civilians warned us about IED's. The ones who did so were taking their lives in their hands by doing so, not only their own lives, but the lives of their families. If the insurgents discovered that they had done so, a middle of the night visit and accompanying massacre would have been their fate. These people did this for whatever reason, but I choose to believe that they were decent people who didn't want to see us killed, and that they also hated the radical agenda of the insurgents. Iraq is a complicated, and scary place.
I have sympathy for these Marines. I have been there. War IS hell. To second guess a decision made in the heat of battle by combat soldiers on the scene is something that irks me. You put these men at the tip of the spear, in this dangerous situation, without adequate support or intel, and then want to crucify them if they make a mistake? The one thing that stands out in my mind about every combat action that I have been in is the chaos and confusion. It is hard to tell what is happening. It is your training that gets you through, because you must act quickly and automatically. It you hesitate to think about it you are dead.
I am sorry for the civilians who lost their lives, but crucifying our guys will not bring them back. If you are not a combat vet, then you need to shut up because you don't know what the hell you're talking about.