E-mail updates
Follow on Twitter
Subscribe to RSSAttorney General Eric Holder is facing heated questioning for the government's role in a gun-smuggling program called Fast and Furious, which some argue is related to a U.S. border agent's death. NBC's Kelly O'Donnell reports from Capitol Hill.
WASHINGTON - Attorney General Eric Holder squared off Thursday with Republicans on a House committee who are demanding that the Justice Department turn over documents about its handling of congressional inquiries into a flawed gun-smuggling investigation known as Operation Fast and Furious.
At the start of a hearing, chairman Darrell Issa, R-Calif., said the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee will do what is necessary to force the Justice Department to produce the information.
The attorney general said he will consider Issa's demand.
"I think you're hiding behind something here," Rep. Dan Burton, R-Ind., told Holder. "You ought to give us the documents. ... It appears we're being stonewalled."
Burton, a former chairman of the committee, said he would urge Issa to seek a contempt of Congress citation if the Justice Department does not produce the congressionally subpoenaed documents.
Issa has already threatened to seek a contempt ruling against Holder for failing to turn over the documents. The lawmaker alleges the Justice Department is engaging in a cover-up.
Before the hearing started, Issa introduced Holder to federal agent John Dodson, one of the whistleblowers in the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives who first told Congress a year ago about the use of a tactic known as gun-walking in the Phoenix-based Fast and Furious investigation.
The tactic involves allowing suspected "straw buyers" of weapons to walk away from gun stores with their illicit purchases, rather than arresting them there. Instead, agents tried to track the low-level buyers and the guns to smuggling ringleaders and financiers, including Mexican drug gang leaders, who have long eluded prosecution for their role in the flow of guns into Mexico.
ATF's Phoenix division has tried this tactic, with minor variations, in at least four investigations beginning in 2006 during the George W. Bush administration. It began three such probes, including one called "Wide Receiver," under Bush before launching Fast and Furious under Obama. All of the probes encountered problems.
Problems recognized after agent's death
In Fast and Furious, which ran from 2009 until early 2011, agents lost track of nearly 1,400 of the more than 2,000 guns purchased by suspected straw buyers. Some 700 guns connected to suspects in the operation have been recovered in Mexico and the U.S., some at crime scenes, including the one near Nogales, Ariz., where border agent Brian Terry was murdered in December 2010. A month after Terry's death, Congress began hearing of problems with the probe.
Parents of slain border agent seek $25 million from Fast and Furious agency
Issa, who issued a memorandum detailing the operations before Terry was killed, and other Republicans on the panel said Thursday at the hearing that senior Justice Department officials should have also known that guns were trafficked without surveillance from wiretap applications and details about "Wide Receiver."
"All of those people should be ashamed that Brian Terry is dead because they didn't do as good of a job as they should," Issa said during the hearing.
Lawmakers want to know "how you'll ensure for the American people that this will not happen again," he said.
Holder has said he and other senior Justice Department officials and its ATF were left in the dark about Fast and Furious until the controversy erupted.
"It's unacceptable, it's stupid, it's dangerous, and not something that this Department of Justice can ever do," Holder told the panel Thursday about the tactics.
He said two senior aides who knew that guns were allowed to be trafficked during the Bush administration regretted not making the connection to "Fast and Furious".
Holder raised questions about whether the wiretap applications did in fact discuss the tactics and said talking about those documents publicly could violate court orders.
Holder said he expected to hold people accountable in a court of law, with maximum criminal charges, for Terry's murder within six months and possibly by the end of March. He also said whoever authorized the tactics would likely be fired.
Republicans expressed frustration that it was taking so long for disciplinary action.
"You told people that you were mad, you were upset. That to me is silly. You've not taken action, you've not fired anybody," said Representative Patrick McHenry of North Carolina.
Holder said he had moved ATF personnel around and barred the use of gun walking. Further action against those responsible would have to wait for the Justice Department's inspector general to finish her investigation and report, he said.
"To the extent that we find out who precisely was involved in this or who gave that order, I can assure you that unless there is some truly compelling circumstance, that person, those people, will be removed from federal service," Holder said.
On Wednesday, Deputy Attorney General James Cole said the department will provide documents created after Feb. 4, 2011, the day the department gave incorrect information to Congress about Fast and Furious.
Cole said the department had made an exception to longstanding policy in order to provide material on how the erroneous Feb. 4 letter was created, but he said other documents about the congressional inquiries on Fast and Furious would not be turned over.
Holder said Thursday that prior administrations have recognized that robust internal communications would be chilled, and the executive branch's ability to respond to such requests impeded, if internal communications concerning responses to congressional oversight were disclosed to Congress.
Memo details concerns
Issa's memo questioned why federal agents allowed the probe to go on for over a year.
Intercepts from a Drug Enforcement Administration wiretap on one of the suspects provided probable cause for federal agents to make arrests, or at the very least supplied the basis to seize the weapons, the Republican staff memo said. The memo said the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives did not act on this information.
Agents could have arrested one of the suspects in December 2009 and used his arrest to work their way up the ladder to the two cartel associates, the staff memo said.
"Instead, ATF wanted to get its own federal wiretaps and create its own big case," said the GOP memo. "This decision ensured that Fast and Furious lasted nearly a year longer, with 1,500 more guns being purchased — including the guns bought by another of the suspects in January 2010" found at the Terry murder scene.
Democrats on the committee have pointed out that agents in the case testified that stronger US laws are needed against straw buyers, because cases get thrown out of court, or prison sentences are too short, to persuade the low-level buyers to turn on their bosses.
Reuters and The Associated Press contributed to this report.
More content from msnbc.com and NBC News
Leave a Comment:
So a key aspect of this operation was the assumption that Mexican Federales would arrest these people as soon as they crossed the border? That would have been a naive assertion at best. If the Federales were doing their job, this wouldn't have been such a problem in the first place. I have a feeling this whole thing was dreamed up by someone that has never been to Mexico, and probably doesn't speak a lick of Espanol. Idiots.
Ah, I see how it is. An operation is a smashing success and the commander in chief is front and center for the slap on the back. Atta boy. Way to go.
An operation becomes a steaming pile of crap or worse and he shoves one of his lackeys under the bus.
It doesn't matter who does what. When you are the leader, you are responsible for what your people do. Good or bad.
But then he isn't a leader. Never was. Never will be.
This is ALL show by Republicans who are grandstanding ONLY because of the upcoming November elections.
TO: Jack-2510943 who wrote:
So, when does Bush (who initiated this operation) and the Republican Bush Administration's "culture of corruption" accept responsibility for us getting attacked on 9/11, for lying us into war in Iraq, and for destroying our economy?
I'm sure the 200 Mexican citizens' families, the Mexican Government and the families of the 2 Americans killed by these weapons don't think the investigation is grandstanding. This was an idiotically obvious attempt to weaken the 2nd amendment right to bear arms enshrined in the Constitution of the U.S.
American Girl...., get real! If Obummer were republican you'd be screaming for Holders firing. The man is more crooked than than the Mississippi River and needs to be held accountable for this unbelievably imbecilic plan.
Actually, this has been going on for awhile, so your grandstanding idea is flawed. Holder basically ordered supression of information, and when agents in the field reported that there were problems, in essence, the language to them was "stfu, i know what I'm doing." Then when dookey hit the fan, Holder tried to play like he was unaware, when it through investigation came out he was full aware. This is why he is being questioned, and why many people want him to be indicted. I hate lawyers in general, but as the top lawyer for the U.S., this guy is a total sleezeball. Too bad some of our citizens and agents had to die because he thought he knew what he was doing, and decided to play cowboy.
Merican Girl. You have to go back much farther than any Bush admin before you get to the root of the economic fiasco. You can start with a bill signed by William Jefferson Clinton in 1999. And it was William Jefferson Clinton who had Bin Laden captive and then released him. So when you talk about who started what, have your facts straight. Oh wait, you're obviously a blinded leftie so facts don't count unless they somehow support your lies.
To American Girl--I see you are still using the tired old line "Bush did it!" Does this current administration ever take responsibility for ANYTHING? I know that you all wish Bush was still President because then at least you could explain the unemployment rate, the foreclosure rate, the inflation rate, the deficit, the national debt, Solyndra, Keystone pipeline, Guatanamo Bay, Lightsquared, Gulf oil spill, and Fast and Furious.
Not scared that Obama is actually going to have to run on his RECORD this time, are you?
"How about give me a break?"
TO: hardtostarboard who wrote:
Just goes to show, Republicans wouldn't know an honest man if they saw one, probably because the GOP is so corrupt.
That said, WHEN do Republicans accept RESPONSIBILITY for us being attacked on 9/11, for lying us into war with Iraq, and for destroying the entire American Economy?
When? Or do Republicans intend on claiming amnesia forever just to AVOID accepting responsibility for doing their level best to destroy and bankrupt America, and the American People?
TO: mikehataway who blathered:
What, you mean all the BS that the Republicans left for the American People as a result of the disasterous Republican Administration?
Hey, when Democrats left Washington after Democrat President Bill Clinton, Clinton left the United States in pristine condition; when Republicans left, they left a mess that’s taking years to clean up.
Republcians never have been able to count, and Republicans have never left office without huge deficits and stacks of crap to clean up. Now Republcians want to gripe because we're not cleaning up your crap fast enough? Right, go pound sand.
To..Jack ""'
That's a lie...
Damn, Americangirl, you have anger issues, not to mention memory issues. I bet you think Jimmy Carter was the best President ever.
Yeah, kinda like Bush did to Colin Powell. But honestly, that's a Presidential precedent that goes back decades.
Jack. Actually, if you want to trace how the root of the economic fiasco started, you would have to start with the Republicans beloved Reagan. He started the charge of the deregulation of banks and monetary institutions, which trickled over 30 years. Technology and the make-up of derivatives and packaging of bad assets helped. Get for facts straight and do some research on your own instead of grasping what people tell you...
American Girl
The Bush Administration had an operation call Wide Receiver. It was ended in 2007 because some weapons were 'lost'. Now the Fast and Furious was started in the Fall 2009 and didn't end until early 2011. Now tell me who was in charge of the White House and the DOJ and Homeland Security during those 14 or so months.
Now please explain this comment by President Bill Clinton.
Earlier today, I ordered America’s armed forces to strike military and security targets in Iraq. They are joined by British forces. Their mission is to attack Iraq’s nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs and its military capacity to threaten its neighbors.
Their purpose is to protect the national interest of the United States, and indeed the interests of people throughout the Middle East and around the world.
Saddam Hussein must not be allowed to threaten his neighbors or the world with nuclear arms, poison gas or biological weapons.
http://articles.cnn.com/1998-12-16/politics/1998_12_16_transcripts_clinton_1_saddam-hussein-unscom-iraq-strike?_s=PM:ALLPOLITICS
Now tell me how Bush LIED to President Clinton.
I don't give Republicans much credit with knowing a heck of a lot! But I do think they know a thing or two about stonewalling!
The Republicans would never allow something like this to happen.. oh wait, there was that Iran Contra thing...
"Contempt of Congress" ??? This is going nowhere fast. If a "Contempt" was filed, Mr. Holder would just get a slap on the wrists.
Get an "outside the beltway" attorney and take him to court. Mr. Holder will get more than a mere $ 25,000,000 lawsuit:
Sheeesh, Mr. Holder's testimony is a lot more than "stonewalling".
American Girl-724855....."WHEN do Republicans accept RESPONSIBILITY for us being attacked on 9/11..."
You have to be kidding with your conspiracy theory. Please show the posters some links (proof) on your LAME assertion.
However, the last sentence of your post #1.10 above should be directed at Mr. Obama and his "elite" staff since they are doing such a good job of BANKRUPTING America and continuing the agenda of Class Warfare.
To Slodan """
Operation Desert Fox was a success....
1998
: Operation Desert Fox
MISSION: To strike military and security targets in Iraq that contribute to Iraq's ability to produce, store, maintain and deliver weapons of mass destruction.
MISSION GOALS: To degrade Saddam Hussein's ability to make and to use weapons of mass destruction. To diminish Saddam Hussein's ability to wage war against his neighbors. To demonstrate to Saddam Hussein the consequences of violating international obligations.
By the fourth night, most of the specified targets had been damaged or destroyed and the Operation was deemed a success
http://www.defenselink.mil/specials/desert_fox/
Clinton left office with a surplus - Bush spent it all and more and we are still digging out.
Vote Democrat for President and for Congress - get rid of the party of "No" for two years and see how it works out.
If you don't like what happens you can vote Republican in 2 years and watch everything come to a grinding halt again.
Don't you just get sick and f**king tired of Republicans complaining that Democrats don't stop adventures started by Republicans in the first place?
The economic meltdown
The national debt
The Iraq War
The Afghan War
The lack of illegal immigration enforcement
And now walking guns.
STFU.
Oh come now, Hal, how stupid and gullible do you think we are? You're comparing supplying arms to a rebel group trying to overthrow a crazy hostile dictator with supplying arms to a viscious drug cartel which has demonstrated that they will kill anyone who gets in their way. But, on the other hand, it did give you the opportunity to attack Republicans, and that's what its all about....right?
Hey man, right is right and wrong is wrong. I don't care who's party said or did what, Holder should disclose information and hand over the documents.
A cover up is wrong whether you are repub or dem. Where's the transparency? What's the guy afraid of if everything is on the up and up?
hey dumbell....the democrats controlled the senate, the house and the loser-in-chief was in the white house in 2009 and 2010.... remember ??? and then they had the tar beat out of them in the 2010 elections.
ps - by the way, the only reason there was a surplus was because the republicans controlled the house -
Carter was much better than those republican replacements that ran the US deficit into the trillions and kept us in perpetual war. When Carter left office the national debt was less than a trillion dollars and the nation was at peace. That was even during the rightwing contrived oil shortage fiasco of odd and even gas days, or do you think liberals control all those oil wells in Texas and the mideast nations? Sad to see the nation controlled by a political faction of rightwing dotes willing to accept anything their hateful leadership claim is true. No need to wonder how Nazi Germany came into being, the answers are happening right before our eyes only this time in the US. I really don`t expect an intelligent truthful response, such things are beyond the avarice of the rightwing "mob". I do expect a macho diatribe fit for the consumption of like-minded rightwing automatons that only know the truth insults them and as a consequence are doomed to accept lies and half-truths in lieu of actual facts.
Its hard to "keep digging out" when the current President is using a "backhoe" to dig us down even deeper.
Over 1000 days without a budget.
A Democratic "super" committee that cant find a way to cut spending.
A gun running operation designed soley to manipulate numbers, to justify infringement of 2nd ammend. rights on on U.S. citizens. Can anyone tell the truth here?? no.
...but hey, keep blaming Bush. Its a worn out excuse now, but keep on doing it.
Jack-2510943
you are correct when you told American Girl to get her facts straight but you should have listened as well! When Clinton had Osama and had an opportunity to "Kill him" in hindsight, Osama was NOT Listed as a terrorist threat to the US. They knew he was participating in covert acts but none caused him to be listed as an enemy of the states. You should read what happened and stop letting news reporters feed you the "Truth" as they see it.
Besides, American Girl was addressing the fact that the now named Fast and Furious program started under George W Bush and as you claim, the administration is responsible
Where's Feisty???? What, since it's not acheap shoot article at some Republican all of a sudden Feisty is to busy to comment?
Dem's, can't you just once say that although (excuse, excuse , excuse) you want the matter investigated and the details made public. Just once stand by your tired talk when it's a democrat involved.
American Girl-724855
Not true! Daryl Issa will grandstand even in years where there aren't any elections.
If Reverend Ike was still alive, he would have a top slot in the Obama administration.
AmericanGirl
How out of touch are you no matter what political party or who in that party you LOVE, honest man and politician in the same thought I almost had a heart attack. I bet even you could tell men one lie President Obama told the American people! Did I at least show the President the respect he deserves? P.S. Holder is a piece of garbage!
So Holder is trying to hide information related to lies told to Congress. I doubt that he will be able to use that stalling tactic until after the elections.
I suspect he will have to resign soon - when his lies become known - remember Scooter Libby? His only crime was lying to investigators.
Jim-952823
how short memories are. Once George W Bush took office, all of the countries woes were blamed on Clinton. When Clinton was in office Lipbaugh and Hannity blamed Clinton, when Bush took office they blamed Clinton, now Obama is in office and there seems to be an 8 year gap in blame to lay on someone now! I know the hard righties hate to hear it but the two unfunded wars were Bush's, Prescription part D (also unfunded) were Bush's, The recession which began in 2007 was Bush's, jobs being lost at a rate of 500,000 PLUS per month in 2008 was Bush's and it was handed off to Obama. He made promises and campaigned on change but the reality is his first term has been completely consumed by his inheritance from the previous administration. A huge undertaking for anyone and if there is a GOP that thinks they can fix it then you guys need to wake up to reality and realize how big of a mess George W created and how deep in the hole we are because he was "The Decider" and decided to put America where she is today.
American Girl: Your statements are somewheres between funny, stupid, but funny, and stupid, funny, but stupid. Please refrain from voting and reproducing as this Nation needs a break.
I would expect no less from the fascist scum.
American Girl
Was it the Democrats "fault" that japan bombed pearl harbor, starting World War 2? After all FDR was a democrat.
How about World War one? Woodrow Wilson was also a Democrat.
More Americans died in either WW1 or WW2 than have died in desert storm, desert shield, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan combined
Facts are terrible things to Democrats when you have to live with them.
Holder is just trying to cover up for his complete incompetence and the gross negligence of the people working for him. These idiots allowed these guns to flow freely into the hands of known criminals. As far as I am concerned, they are responsible for many deaths both in the US and Mexico because of their actions. Holder should be fired as he has clearly demonstrated that he lacks the judgement to be in his position and, while I know it will never happen, both he and people working for him should be brought up on criminal charges for weapons trafficking.
Actually the republicans have been trying to get to the bottom of this story since it broke, but apparently this administration believes that there should be no accountability in government. This was a SERIOUSLY flawed operation and the American people deserve to know what happened, how it happened, and who was responsible for letting it happen. I don't see this as a political play at all. This was terribly flawed and people died needlessly. PEOPLE DID DIE. Don't all of you who are screaming "politics" get that? American agents were gunned down. At the very LEAST, many should lose their jobs, and more likely should be jailed over this.
Holder should be held Criminally Responsible if he fails to provide the requested documents, just like any other Legal U.S. Citizen. If he has nothing to hide or providing "cover" for someone else, he should provide the requested. It has nothing to do with Democrat or Republican, the lame attempt to blame State Officials in AZ. with this operation is laughable. State Officials do not manage or Supervise ATF Staff. Holder is the incompetent in charge, he is responsible for the actions of his self appointed managers & Supervisors. You'd think he was President the way he is avoiding the truth.
This nothing but kabooke theater, and after the Teapubs have sucked all the air out of Washington, its business a usual.
OBAMA IN 2012; 70+ SEATS FOR DEMS IN THE SENATE AND CONTROL OF THE HOUSE
American girl might be suffering from Anosognosia. For some reason it seems to affect the majority of people who tend towards liberal viewpoints. The CDC should really look nto this... it appears to be running rampant in many parts of the country... typically higher percentage of infection in large metro areas.
Steve-2570999
Clinton left office with a surplus - Bush spent it all and more and we are still digging out.
Who's responsible for the Budget Deficits and the Debt?
While it's tempting to blame the President for Budget Deficits, it's actually the responsibility of Congress to pass a spending budget, which establishes the amount of the Deficit each year and any required borrowings on the Debt. So what does the record show, based on who controlled Congress over the last 30 years (through 2010);
DEFICITS ($7.304 Trillion)
Total Deficits when Democrats controlled Congress (12 years) = $5.022 Trillion.
Total Deficits when Republicans controlled Congress (10 years) = $1.219 Trillion.
Total Deficits when Congress was split (8 years) = $1.063 Trillion.
NEW DEBT ($12.654Trillion = 93.3% of all the Debt in our History) (a)
Total New Debt when Democrats controlled Congress (12 years) = $7.623 Trillion.
Total New Debt when Republicans controlled Congress (10 years) = $3.260 Trillion.
Total New Debt when Congress was split (8 years) = $1.771 Trillion.
Spin it all you want, but these are the FACTS
(a) – Contrary to popular belief, the National Debt increases far more than the Deficits for each year, mainly because of the way that the government treats 'borrowings' from 'Trust Funds'.
Sources - Democrats controlled Congress from 1987 – 1994, and from 2007 – 2010. Republicans controlled Congress from 1995 – 2000, and from 2003 – 2006. There was a split Congress from 1980 – 1986 and for 2001 & 2002. The government site to verify National Debt increases is;
http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/Historicals See Table 7.1
The government site to verify the Deficits for each year is;
http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/Historicals See Table 1.3
I'll let the facts speak for themselves as to which Party is more fiscally responsible.
The truly compelling circumstance being that Holder and Obama are involved in this up to their ears!
"On Wednesday, Deputy Attorney General James Cole said the department will provide documents created after Feb. 4, 2011, the day the department gave incorrect information to Congress about Fast and Furious."
Seriously?
That would be known as lying to Congress - an offense that carries a prison term.
Can you imagine if that were the way things work? Hey, it's not tax fraud, it's just incorrect information. It's not perjury, I just gave incorrect information. Did I say I have a Doctorate, it was just incorrect information.
They lied to cover up this obscene Fast and Furious operation.
Wow! Let me guess, School Teacher? Student maybe? DMV / Postal worker? Vice President? No you spelled to many words correctly to be vice president.
If you read the article, Bush's administration ended the operation when they learned some of the guns had been lost track of. Obama's administration re-started the program in 2009, and did not end it until 2011. After a Border Agent was killed by one of the guns they lost.
National debt when Obama took office - 10 trillion dollars. Current national debt - 15 trillion dollars. Due to go up 1.8 trillion in 2012. That's a 50% increase in 3 years. 60% in 4 years, More than Clinton and Bush together.
Since Obama took office: unemployment went UP 3%.. Number of people on SNAP, double ( due mostly to unemployment). Cost of gasoline, up 53%, cost of food up 43%, cost of clothing, up 210%. Obama claims stimulus saved or created 2.5 million jobs. At 800 billion dollars for the stimulus, that's $320,000.00 per job. Hardly efficient. BTW: 90% of those jobs saved were union jobs. See a pattern?
TO: Jack-2510943 who wrote:
Wow, you are so misinformed it's laughable!
When Bush took office there was a $450 billion dollar surplus, Democrat President Bill Clinton balanced the budget, and then Bush came along and rescued Osama Bin Laden from our raid on Tora Bora, Bush held back our troops, and then Bush had Osama Bin Laden flown to safety.
It wasn't until Democrat President Barack Obama came to office that Bin Laden finally paid for his crimes against the United States and the American People.
So, Republicans have to constantly demagogue because they can't stand to take responsibility for their own failures. We know.
Obama / Biden 2012
Yes, I am. You make the Contras sound like the epitome of virtue. These guys used our weapons to kill civilians- men, women and children. They tortured prisoners. They took what they wanted. These weren't nice people, they were just preferable to the existing authority with respect to the US government.
So, yes. I am comparing it to that. For more information about human rights violations by the Contras, see the Human Rights World Report for 1992.
Oh Bruce, what about the Bush and Cheney lies that cost 2000 plus American lives in Iraq? What about Bush giving a pardon to the scapegoat that supposedly lied to the President? Oh, I forget, those were republicans and you forgive them, and the lies about waterboarding, Iran contra affair, and now you got a lying snake and commandment breaking Gingrich, let me guess, he's your choice for president, right?
I will agree with the libs on one thing.... I'd take 8 terms of Billy Bob over the one term of Barack Hussein! Billy may have been into it for SMP ( Sex, Money, Power ), but at least he understood that America, with all her faults, is still the best country the world has seen. Barack wants ( and has done a bang up job so far! ) to destroy ( change? ) the very things that have made us what we are.
just like Obama, Holder feels he is above the law. This my friends is the most dangerous trait of anyone in power...
How about it American girl?
Any explanation for World War 1 and 2 both started during Democratic presidents? Is it the Democrats fault we were in those wars?
Or was that Bushes fault too?
If we were to just legalize drugs like they were back in 1920 or before this type of problem would disappear. The death, destruction and chaos of drugs is the fault of prohibition and those who support it.
LEGALIZE
If Eric Holder didn't know anything until it "exploded" then why in the hell is he dragging his feet on producing the documents the Conressional committee has asked for time and again ??????????????
The answer is obvious: Holder is lying to "cover his gluteus maximus". He is an absolute FARCE as attorney general. Whether he is grossly incompetent so as to be ignorant of what is going on (doubtful he did not know) or lying through his teeth (more likely) is irrelevant ... either way, Eric Holder must go.
Oh, but wait .... he carries Obama's ideology on his shoulders !
For Americangirl and others who think this is all "grandstanding" for an election year etc.. I ask you what the heck do you call the presidents state of the union address? AND from the report please read the following:
Okay so American law enforcement are murdered with these guns from this operation and somehow you want to blame Bush? Granted the Bush administration had negative or less than satisfactory results with the WIDE RECEIVER operation but as the report states, this was Obama's baby.
This is only one of AG Eric Holders screw ups though. He and Obama refused to prosecute black militants who were shown on eyewitness camera to be intimidating and threatening voters in Philadelphia and elsewhere with clubs, weapons etc... and calling them racial epithets... They were obviously guilty of "Hate crimes" in addition to civil rights violations. Holder and his cronies accused Americans of "Cowardice" when it came to race!
The list of Obama and Holders biased and ego/ethno-centric based policies are smacking everyone right in the face but the media says nothing, does nothing. All Americans should hang their heads in shame for what this administration represents. AND all you nutjobs out there that want to throw up and regurgitate "What about Bush?" ... SAVE IT for the idiot club. I don't by his crap either... But the was then and this is now!
American Girl,
Quit drinking the Koolaid. Holder and the Obama administration are fresh out of the corrupt politics of Chicago and have brought it to Washington. You and other liberals are so in love with Obama and blind to what he is doing, its pathetic. Wake up.
Addendum to Post #1.43
Net new jobs created under a Republican Congress = 21,773,000, or 2,177,300 jobs per year.
Net new jobs created under a Democratic Congress = 8,100,000, or only 675,000 jobs per year.
Net new jobs created under a Split Congress = 9,888,000, or 1,236,000 jobs per year.
I guess all of those anti-business policies of the Democrats don't help much when it comes to 'creating jobs'.
Source - the Government's Bureau of Labor Statistics
SO tired of this 'blame game'..sighhhh.
This OPERATION, to see if the guns made it to the cartels....lets take for granted they did....
THEN WHAT ????
American Girl
I wish you actually knew what was going on in America with our economy. The failure of our economy is the work of president Bill Clinton, who made it ok for you to buy a house with no money down, you could buy a $500,000 house with a $50,000 a year salary. Also with the failure of the banks and the car companies we should of let them go under, it is in our constitution that the government will not help private companies because it unethical to help one company and tell others no. Here is a link about how Bill Clinton set this hole thing in motion.
Here is a link about Obama spending three times as fast as Bush. That's ok though right because he is a Dem. Such a hypocrite
http://www.nationalreview.com/campaign-spot/265304/national-debt-was-growing-even-george-w-bush
I know you Lib's like to make stuff up, Bill Clinton did not leave a surplus he left a defecate just like every other president. Here's the link on that.
http://www.craigsteiner.us/articles/16
So next time us spell check and get you facts right.
Man, they're determined to put a tempest in this teapot...
talons-1110240 "How about it American girl? Any explanation for World War 1 and 2 both started during Democratic presidents? Is it the Democrats fault we were in those wars?"
Interestingly, of the approximately 610,000 Americans killed in wars over the last 100 years, 96% of them were killed under Democratic Presidents. I wonder if Republicans are just better at PREVENTING big wars than the Democrats.
Perhaps that has something to do with Republicans who STRENGTHEN our military, while Democrats seem to want to WEAKEN it at every opportunity.
It amazes me when people use the "but the other party did it too" argument. Two wrongs don't make a right. If something similar happened under a Republican administration, that administration should also be punished.
Everyone needs to take off the party blinders and start taking actions at their face value.
Where's WikiLeaks when you need them.
American Girl- Sorry but it was Clinton who dropped his gaurd when all this terrorist where he getting trained. He had a chance at Osama but failed to do anything
Steve- Did you forget we had two years of Dem majoerity and what did we get? 6 more tril in debt, Clunker care, And Obamacare. Why would we want to try that one again. Why do think they got voted out.
Im not trying to say Bush was a model president but really Obama has to start taking some credit for his failures.
American-Girl you are laughable. You truly need to find someone that will listen and believe what you ramble on about because it is obvious that whomever you hang out with now does not let you talk or listen to the ramblings that may spew forth from your hole. Honestly, take you ball and go home.
This man needs to be prosecuted along with anyone/everyone involved! Nuff said
mikehataway, #1.8- I think more to the question is "Does this Bush-dregs Congress ever stop purposeful [with intent] blame-Mongering and Witch-Doll Hunting for sticking millions and millions of American Citizens Voo-Doo pins, needles, darts, daggers, arrows; and semi-automatic machine guns and the MEAT CLEAVER AXE AFTER Mission Accomplished Perforation?" Shouldn't these guys be working on their "Kinder and Gentler "New and Improved! & Suitably Self-servingly "Laundered-Lenient" Insider Trading Law or something?
Hey Issa- What's in your wallet? Shame-shame!!! (just suspicious, mistrusting, misrepresented and misled, that's all) You'll get over it! Question is, will America's address? (the US Post Office)
HAPPY GROUNDHOG DAY!!!!!
Old Man, #1.47
You omitted something but it's not your fault. If you wrote all day there would be something you missed. There is simply so much to work with. I believe this is important enough to mention.
Yesterday, before the House Budget Committee Doug Elmendorf, the head of the Congressional Budget Office, responded to a question about jobs. He was asked if presently there were more or fewer jobs than when President Obama was sworn in. His response was "Fewer".
So there you have it. No spin. No 'you gotta understand'. There are fewer jobs now. But then he's the head of the CBO. What's he know?
ROY WILSON-336103
finish your thought or Facts! Exactly who was President when these Congresses racked up these jobs numbers?
Here are previous numbers: it seems Reagan AND Bush 43 did not add up to Clinton...
Reagan: Jan 81 to Dec 88, 16.3 million
Clinton: Jan 93 to Dec. 2000, 22.8 million
Bush 43: Jan 2000 to Oct. 2008, 4.4 million
Robert-1960 "ROY WILSON-336103 finish your thought or Facts! Exactly who was President when these Congresses racked up these jobs n umbers"
And exactly what does a President do that creates jobs? Presidents can only sign or veto what Congress gives them. Congress passes bills that can either help foster economic growth, or discourage it. Obviously, Democratic Congresses seem to discourage economic growth with their excessive 'regulations' - I think 30 years of historical evidence is significant. Of course we can credit Obama with actually 'creating' some jobs - he has about 60 'Czars' that he has hired.
PS - You left off Obama - January 2009 - December 2011 = MINUS 1.6 million jobs.
Bruce Bruce Bruce, you said;
The Associated Press reported that a program similar to Fast and Furious had been implemented under the Bush administration.
Far less is known about that program, Operation Wide Receiver -- which also allowed guns to be transferred to suspected traffickers for the purposes of tracking their movement -- mainly because it remained a secret during the previous administration. But to the extent that it was similar to Fast and Furious, it helped defuse the current controversy.
My gosh!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/earlier-atf-gun-operation-wide-receiver-used-same-tactics-as-fast-and-furious/2011/10/06/gIQAuRHIRL_story.html
Hum? Makes you think huh? lmao...
ROY WILSON-336103
in that same sentiment, what exactly does a congress do that creates jobs without the president? As we have seen since the 2010 elections, nothing gets done in Washington without the other side and without the other branches of Government. In Clinton's day he worked with the GOP congress, they cut spending and "Raised Taxes" and balanced the budget 4 times, together!
I was making a point to your statement, you listed Congress's I listed presidents. tit for tat
I think a lot of you (i.e. American Girl) really ought to be ashamed of yourselves for even dragging party politics in to this.
An american BP agent was shot and killed with these guns, the records for that situation were sealed, along with the reason for sealing them. The AG of the DOJ has been lying to congress. Hundreds of mexicans are dead because of these guns that our government allowed to walk. The higher ups in the ATF have actually been promoted since this all happened, the whistle blowers have been persecuted.
And all you can do is yell Bush this, Clinton that, republicans this, liberals that.
This is pretty much above all of that don't you think? How many of these guns are still in the hands of criminals and the cartels in both our country and Mexico? How many more american citizens and mexican citizens are going to be killed by the stupidity of our government in this case?
You all should be supporting Congress no matter what party they are and what party you are in this case so that those responsible are punished, and yes, since Holder is at the top, he is responsible. Obama will weather through this just like Bush weathered through the war due to their positions. But Holder has tried to cover this up along with those below him.
Get over the party politics all ready and try to stand up for what is right.
Although I completely agree that this was nothing but a ham-fisted attempt to undermine the second amendment, I have to wonder why Holder and Obama don't just pull an "Iran-Contra": Holder refuses to testify, saying only, "I answer to the President", a la Oliver North, and Obama pardons everybody. Maybe they will, if they can delay it until after the election.
Bruce, sorry I missed responding to your last statement: Obama negative what 1.6 million jobs?
http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2011/01/08/207311/obama-created-more-jobs-in-one-year-than-bush-created-in-eight/?mobile=nc
Obama created more jobs in one year than Bush created in eight
It's ok, go ahead read the whole story, even politifacts gives more credit to Obama than Bush and the numbers do not seem to equal your claims...
Sorry, LogicReguired, Feisty's out peddling her sorry @$$ earning money the only way she knows how....you're on your own for worthless unsubstanting comments.....I'm sure you'll do fine! lol
AlexM-2364525
I agree this is not party and the right thing should be done, however lets not forget Operation Wide Receiver. The difference is or was, Operation Wide receiver was kept very secret with the Bush Administration. None are guiltless and none will be punished.
People....focus on the issue....disregard all the peripheral BS. "Fast and Furious" permitted 2000 guns to cross into Mexico...many, many thousands of guns go into Mexico by other means....one turned up in the hands of a criminal who killed an American. If the "fast and furious" program had never been started, that same criminal who was intent on getting his hands on a gun.....would have gotten one anyway....and the results would have been the same....one American dead. Congressional attention into "Fast and Furious" is an irrelevant sideshow. Better time would be spent figuring out how to create jobs for my brothers in arms, returning from Iraq.
Obama has created many jobs... but unfortunately most of them are Government jobs. And anyone with a brain cell recognizes the fact that the Government DOES NOT...repeat..DOES NOT make money! It only taxes and spends money. So theoretically he is actually making things worse! Now you have more wages and benefits to pay on less income.
Oh..and the "green" jobs he has "created"... only problem is that most of those green companies are utter failures and can't even survive on billions of government subsidy dollars that further deepen our debt.
No regional director, no deputy director, no director, no deputy attorney general, no attorney general, would allow or approve a a goofy operation such as this without direct O.K., from the very top at the white house; any-one that does not know this never worked in management for the government.
Right you are! Been going on ever since the Bush admin where similar ops were carried out 3 times with equally inept results. The Obama admin stopped the practive after the their first try. So, the Repub grandstanding idea is true.
@Robert-1960
I completely agree that the same thing should've happened with Wide Receiver. I absolutely wouldn't be above a new investigation in to that also. Anytime a crime like this is commited by our government, it needs to be held responsible regardless of party.
I'm just seeing in this thread where people are letting their party affiliation cloud their judgement on what should be done, and excusing what has been done because someone of the other party commited crime ABC.
Robert-1960 "Obama created more jobs in one year than Bush created in eight"
Get real - Try using official government sites, not the BS sites from specious sources. Here is the OFFICIAL government Bureau of Labor Statistics site;
http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/CES0000000001?output_view=net_1mth
To save you some addition. let's recap;
Bush - January 2001 - December 2008 = 1,898,000 net new jobs.
Obama - January 2009 - December 2011 = 2,483,000 net jobs LOST, a difference in Bush's favor of a net of 4,381,000 net jobs.
Even if you credited Bush with all of the jobs lost in January 2009 (even though Obama took office in January), and added them back to Obama's figures, you would get 1,062,000 net new jobs created under Bush, and 1,663,000 net jobs LOST under Obama, a difference in Bush's favor of 2,725,000 net jobs.
I gave Obama the benefit of the doubt, counting all of the jobs lost in January 2009 for Bush, and he still lost a net of 1,663,000 jobs since taking office. Don't believe the BS in the media about how Obama has 'created millions of jobs' - it's just not true.
Your 'biased' site only counts the good months for Obama and ignores most of the months where jobs were lost under Obama - in other words, try using reliable GOVERNMENT sites, not biased liberal sites with an agenda.
Robert-1960 "ROY WILSON-336103 in that same sentiment, what exactly does a congress do that creates jobs without the president?"
My point was that Congress is responsible for passing a Budget each year, which in turn, along with pro or anti growth policies, determines the Deficits and increases in the National Debt.
But the point about both sides having some control when Congress and the Presidency is split between the parties has merit - so let's take a look at the record when one Party controlled both the Presidency AND both houses of Congress. In the last 20 years, this has occurred for 8 years - 4 years for Democrats and 4 years for Republicans;
So which Party seems to do the best job when in total control?
When the Presidency and Congress is split between the Parties, one Party can block the efforts of the other (and share the credit/blame), so let's look at how well Democrats and Republicans did over the last 20 years (through 2010) when they controlled everything (Congress and the Presidency) – This happened over a total of 8 years, 4 years for Clinton/Obama and 4 years for Bush 2. In all of the other years, no one Party controlled both the Presidency and both houses of Congress.
In the 4 years under Clinton/Obama, we had;
Federal Spending averaged $2.461 Trillion per year.
Deficits averaged $791 Billion per year.
Gross Domestic Product (GDP) increased by $849 Billion.
The National Debt increased by $4.184 Trillion.
The average Unemployment Rate was 7.90%.
Total average employment DECREASED by 1,730,000 net jobs.
In the 4 years under Bush 2, we had;
Federal Spending averaged $2.082 Trillion per year, $380 Billion per year less.
Deficits averaged $205 Billion per year, $586 Billion per year less.
Gross Domestic Product (GDP) increased by $1.865 Trillion, $1,016 Billion more growth.
The National Debt increased by $1.726 Trillion, $2,468 Billion less increase in Debt.
The average Unemployment Rate was 5.55%, 2.35% less than under Democrats.
Total average employment Increased by 2,361,000 net jobs, 4,091,000 more jobs created (1.02 Million more jobs/yr.)
Gee, I wonder which Party seems to do a better job when in total control?
Government Sources to verify data;
Spending, Deficits - http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/Historicals Table 1.3
National Debt - http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/Historicals Table 7.1
GDP - http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/Historicals Table 10.1
Employment - http:www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat.pdf See Employed – Total for each year.
"culture of corruption"...hahaha...AmericanGirl
Michelle Malkin already branded your king Hussein's admin with that tag...strealing that and applying it to your rhetoric is as unoriginal as most of your posts...not a personal attack , just an observation
Holder is a criminal , he has engaged in illegal activities since he was given an unwarranted taste of power...but then we have come to expect that from liberal neo-comm's
Illegally Providing guns to bad guys in a Latin country can only be described as "Reaganesque."
The murder rate in Mexico is currently at the level where it is estimated that one person is killed every thirty minutes. Now, Fast and Furious was an attempt by the Obama administration to create the myth that all the weapons in Mexico come from north of the border. It backfired and the only reason any knowledge of the travesty ever made the news was because some brave agents blew the whistle on the scam.
Mexico got over fourteen billion from the US, much of it coming from Obama. Guess that money helps the Mexican authorities look the other way, since, if you consider the true ramifications of Fast and Furious, many untold Mexicans have been killed by guns allowed into the country as a result of Fast and Furious. How many Americans would look the other way if Mexican guns were killing federal agents and American citizens? Holder is a disgrace, a con and, by proxy, a murderer. He is the DOJ, he is in charge and anyone attempting to justify this incredible abuse of justice by blaming Bush or republicans apparently isn't too sympathetic to the plight of the families of the deceased and murdered.
Truly is amazing how short liberal memories are when things turn ugly for their "Hood". Bush did have a program that followed a similar premise, however the significant differences is that Bush AD ended the program when results were not worth the cost something Obama and his AD failed to do, another significant difference is one of scope, the Bush administration effort numbered weapons in the very very low hundreds and the three programs under Obama and his AD numbered in the thousands of weapons. Also a significant difference is that the Bush AD took responsibility for the program as did the Bush Administration something once again Holder and Obama have yet to do.
American girl you have been wrong on soooooooo many many many things lets also clear up one more little bit of misinformation (read that as lies): 9/11 was not the fault of the Bush administration but certainly was a cause and effect of the Clinton administration. Bush had been in office less than 10 months when 9/11 happened, Bush, as were the American people the victims of the Clinton administrations dismantling of the entire CIA Networks that were operating in both the Middle East and Europe. Clinton felt hiring less than desirable to do spying for the US was unethical so directed the CIA to cut loose all contacts with those NETWORKS. 9/11 was a direct result of slick willie and his incompetence - with willie I call it incompetence with Obama I call it disloyalty.
Id theft noted with Twitter and Facebook. Authentic account Facebook Yukie Karen Yamada seeking safe haven designation on social media network sites for pervasive hacking id fraud in Hawaii wire. Twitter account Fern Fitzgerald is fraud account reported to enforcement within Twitter. See twitter.com/FernSpoke.
It's in the administration's best interest for Holder to keep stalling this issue until after the election! The details can only harm his chance of re-election! That's because there's a lot of blame to go around in this one and it stops in the Oval Office!
Obama would also like to soft pedal Solyndra and other bankrupt 'green projects' funded by the tax payers until after the election! It's all about politics and keeping in power, isn't it?
BenSnead.........you have no idea what the details are. How do you know the President was aware of the plan or approved it? Odds are, there's some embarrassing stuff in those files. Embarrassing to both the Bush and Obama adminstrations.
To me, this is really just a Republican witchhunt trying to create a crisis prior to election day. I don't know for a fact that Mr. Holder's concerns are legitimate or not. What I do know, is that this committee is playing politics.
Then why won't he turn over the documents? And at first he denied knowledge of this, then admitted he did know of it. Which is it?
Admetum, Your recognition that we don't know the details is a recognition that the Obama Administration hasn't been honest or open as Obama promised when he took office.. The evidence is clear..they are withholding information..isn't that a "cover-up"?
Ben, how do you square the taxpayer funded infusion of AIG by Bush for almost $1B and not payed back?
about that, how does this story, in any way cause you to throw some re-gurgitated c.r.ap. out to blame Bush. I know it sucks to see the current admin. lying their A$$e$ off, but blaming Bush isnt cutting it anymore.
I swear thats the liberal answer to everything...do you guys go to bed at night with a tape recording that says "blame bush, blame bush, blame bush, blame bush, blame bush, blame bush......" playing in your ear all night? When is the Anointed one going to take reponsiblity for HIS actions.
Harry.......how do you know the President is repsonsible for withholding the documents? Personnally, I think this is a situation where Holder is trying to save his skin (and probably a few others involved).
Here's what I think is going to happen. The documents will be released at some point. The Republicans will make a huge issue out of the obvious errors that were made (they'll selectively omit talking about the three operations that failed during the Bush administration). They'll blow things out of proportion as any typical politiican does. Chances are, Holder or someone else will take the fall to take care of the optics of this manufactured crisis.
In essence, instead of working together to help fix the economy - these guys will be playing games over documents (that no one truly cares about) in an effort to help themselves get elected in November. And people wonder why things are so screwed up.
Admetum, no one cares about? How about the families of the people killed by those guns? If Bush is responsible for what his people did, then Obama is responsible for what his people are doing. Democrats seem to be making a life living in the past. Yesterday is history ( as is Bush). Today is reality, as is Obama. Tomorrow is the future; who can we trust? Not one of the people in Washington, if you are honest.
Key distinction...Under Wide Receiver, the Mexican government knew about it and 300 guns were traced. Under Fast and Furious Mexico didn't know about it and 2,000 guns were lost. Democrats are the ones politicizing this by tring to equate Wide Receiver and Fast and Furious. The programs were factually different and even Holder has even denied that they are the same issue in previous testimony.
Interesting that no one is defending Holder by pointing to how the program was successful...they are simply trying to deflect or attack the messenger. That is what is telling to me.
Hey Ben! Is that you buddy? it's "Joe" in Fort Lauderdale... give me a call.
oldman.........I agree with your point about the politicians in Washington. In my opinion, they're all useless.
The reality is, no one really cares about these documents. Do you really believe the Republicans on this committee are trying to get to the truth? Do you really believe they care if anyone is held accountable other than the President? It's political theatre.
As I said, I believe the delays and withholding of documents have more to do with Holder trying to keep his job. The delays in disciplining those responible are due to the fact that he doesn't know how to do it without more details about his involvement coming out. Typical bureaucrat.
I feel for the family of the Border Agent who was killed with one of the guns involved. Border Agents have a tough job. Americans need to understand how difficult and dangerous that job is.
@weaselyone
no facts please...they only cloud the libbie mind
Illegally Providing guns to bad guys in a Latin country - in a word "Reaganesque."
admetum, I do not believe that Ben Snead said the administration was aware. He is pretty much saying, that by now, Holder has briefed the President and obama is covering it up.
Jim, I suppose we should stop blaming Hitler for the invasion of Poland and starting WW2? Is that the litmus test for History - time has passed - no more blame for the one striking the match that burned down the building. Republican revision on History as usual.
"All of the probes encountered problems." Excellent reporting, folks. Without giving additional details, that sentence is opinion instead of news. Sadly typical Bush blaming by MSNBC.
Ah, I see how it is. An operation is a smashing success and the commander in chief is front and center for the slap on the back. Atta boy. Way to go.
An operation becomes a steaming pile of crap or worse and he shoves one of his lackeys under the bus.
It doesn't matter who does what. When you are the leader, you are responsible for what your people do. Good or bad.
But then he isn't a leader. Never was. Never will be.
Wait. Republicans want better gun control? They need to remember that illegal guns can't kill border officers. Only people can kill border officers.
Can't believe Feisty isn't here screaming about the mean old GOP!
Who's obstructing NOW?!?
Holder is a typical bureaucrat worried about his job. It's possible that the files will provide reason to dump him (or others) - which I believe is the real reason why he's stalling.
The fact is, this type of operation was used by both the Bush and Obama administrations. Both administrations will get tarred by this. The Republicans are trying to manufacture a crisis in an effort to make the President look bad.
I don't think anyone has to make Obama and Holder look bad. They do a pretty fine job of that on their own.
Hay Ho the bros gotta go.
Agreed RAS928.......the same holds true for Reid, Pelosi, Cantor, Boehner, and McConnell. You're not going to do any better with the current crop of Republican candidates either.
Your facts are wrong. First off, pointing to an operation by the previous administration does not get the current administration off the hook for wrongdoing. Secondly, "the fact is" Wide Receiver and Fast and Furious were entirely different programs equating the two is simply an attempt to cover their butts and make it sound like both parties are guilty of the same thing. Big FACTUAL difference: Wide Receiver tracked the firearms that crossed the border into Mexico and the operation was conducted in conjunction with the Mexican Authorities. F&F walked the guns across the border, did not track them, and did not involve the Mexican Authorities. Quite a difference I would say. Blame Bush doesn't work when facts get in the way.
As far as attempting to make the President look bad, it is his own fault if he ends up looking bad in all of this. It was the President who, when asked about concerns the administration may have had with the handling of F&F, said he had "complete confidence" in Holder. So if Obama looks bad, it is his own fault for picking Holder, and standing behind him.
mikehataway.... the new nickname going around for feisty redwig is carrot top! Same name as the Vegas act with Carrot Top, the guy in the orange hair. His act gets laughs, feisty's act gets us to laugh at her.... hence the name carrot top.
our carrot top would never comment on anything critical of obama, she's a bit anal about the guy,... too many boilermakers perhaps?
can you say "republican witch hunt."
can you say liberal "cover-up"?
Can you say "Cover-up"?
Can you say "Passing the buck"?
Can you say "Typical Obama Administration antics"?
Navyvet...Did you get beyond E-3? Your lack of critical thinking skills leave much to be desired. Republicans have control of House committees. Therefor they set the agenda. It's all P O L I T I C S and therefor BS..Semper Fi Mac!
It wouldn't be politics if it was a Republican in charge. You libs would be screaming for indictments.
Wouldn't be the first witch hunt.
Leave Michelle out of this!
American Girl: Have you noticed how the Obama administration has supported every "liberation" movement in the Middle East that controlled radical Islamist and prevented the growth of Muslim terrorist groups within their borders?
After each of those successful liberation movements took control their respective country each of those country's is now on the verge of falling under the control of radical Muslims such as the Muslim Brotherhood. Coincidence - could Obama be truly that unlucky that every liberation movement he supported turns out to be controlled by a radical fundamentalist Muslim group or perhaps part of his ultimate plan to destabilize the entire middle east and turn it over to his own breathern???????
A federal operation that Holder is now trying to blame on the State. They need to get Chucky Schumer to come out and white-wash this like he did for Clinton after Waco.
If Holder was ny type of man he would come out and simply state "Yes we did this ..... this was what we trying to accomplish ..... we screwed and lost control." The story would have ended there with a week's worth of headlines. Instead he is trying to use media manipulation, lies, delays, shredded documents and finger pointing to deflect the blame on someone else. What a coward.
Since the Democrats control the media there is little doubt that nothing will be reported about this, Solyndra, Enert, the Pelosi Connection and the rest of the administration's foibles. Even when Solyndra collapsed the White House tried to blame Bush.
Typical left wing politics at its best.
Solyndra was Bush II's pet project. Next.
Fantomdog, Solyndra was liked by Bush, but Obama gave them 500 million of our tax dollars, assuming you pay taxes. Obama is claiming he created thousands of jobs in the green energy field, but checking the facts - 80% of those jobs were there before he took office. Like him putting signs on highway jobs "Obama putting Americans back to work". Those highway jobs were proposed and funded under Bush. it takes three to four years for a highway job to go from idea to shovel ready. One project requires ahowing need, planning what needs done and how, engineering details, environmental impact, letting for bids, and acquiring funding. The first job the Obama administration proposed might start this year, maybe.
fantomdog. Bush put a hold on any money for Solyndra, because it did not look right. Typical liberal pushing responsibility to someone else.
When any person especially bureaucrats feel they did nothing wrong, they will hand over key documents, something which Holder thus far will not do. But like other famous cases, these documents may turn up missing or accidentally shredded.
Might we see some accountability taken for an employee of the federal government or will the usual thing happen and the lower employees get burned? Will Holder find the usual scapegoats. There has to be accountability as few in power positions in our system of government jobs ever take the hit for wrongdoing. So many of us have seen only the little guy blamed for what the shakers and movers do, and the little guys lose their jobs. If we don't have accountability soon, we will have chaos. We already have enough confusion.
And yes, it is great to hear that Agent Terry's name is coming up, that he died because of a poorly planned, stupid operation. How many of our military have died because of poorly planned operations. I hope the Border Agency and Terry's family gets justice.
They've already found their scapegoat: Arizona. The problem with this is that, since Arizona isn't under the DOJ's thumb, they may find their 'scapegoat' turn into an 'escaped ram' and hit them in the rear.
Odumbo's fast and furious attack on the 2nd amendment crashed and burned and set President liar and his empty suit, attorney general's pants on fire.
Did you miss the part about how the first three similar attempts were by our previous republican president's administration? You might also want to explain how this was an attack on the second amendment in the first place... are you at all familiar with what the operation was about, or are you just looking for a reason to point fingers?
I think that the people responsible for a bad op such as this one should definitely be HELD responsible for it. But I also think that if you want to hold people responsible, you kind of have to look past all this crap about what party they belong to. Because that's what your comment is really about, the concept that the current democratic president is out to get you, a (let me guess) republican, and infringe on your rights because that's what democrats are all about. This was not just a democratic or republican operation, it was a combination of both over the last two presidents. Everyone who had a hand in this should face the consequences, party affiliation not withstanding.
Of course, that would require people to first recognize that a bad op has nothing to do with whether you're a republican or a democrat, a conservative or a liberal.
Cat, you been listening to the republican run NRA for too long, I've heard them say for 50 years that the democrats want to take your guns. Nothing even close has happened in those 50 years, and I will tell you right now why it hasn't. Think about this, more than half of us democrats are gun owners also and feel just like you do about guns, the NRA are just a bunch of republican loudmouths. The only gun legislation I can remember is the assault weapon ban and I'm for that, I don't need a drunk neighbor shooting his M-60 machine gun or full auto AK-47 into my house. I don't even care if he's shooting at an intruder, he doesn't need automatic weapons.
I find it interesting that Issa and Co aren't equally as concerned about the gun show loop hole that allows weapons to be purchased and transported over the border. They should be very careful what they ask for - Holder could very well be stringing them along only to release documentation that blows up in their collective faces.
Holder is a criminal; and he has nothing. this was done to try to deep-six the 2nd Amendment
I find it interesting that you are not the least bit concerned about the Constitution, the violation of international laws and the number of innocent people killed by this flawed operation.
Then again, you identified yourself with San Francisco so that reveals a lot about you.
Pedestrian, this so called loophole only exists in the minds of anti second amendment people. And besides, I've never seen fully automatic weapons for sale to the general public at any show Ive ever been to. It is nothing more than anti gun rhetoric.
ped in SF
What 'Gun Show loophole' are you talking about??
Slodan, SF's talking point sheet only says "Gun show loophole" on it. There are no further details. It's just a red herring tactic.
I feel this administration, if they win reelection <shudder> will do everything they can to remove all of the citizen's rights - including second amendment rights - for the "good" of the People.
Haven't I read that somewhere before...hmmm...maybe it was that little book by Karl Marx?!?
lol... oh my, the frothing and gnashing my little post causes. Sounds like a few "patriots" that think it's just fine and great to sell weapons with no id and no background check. After all, we're all just exercisin' our 2nd amendment rights, y'all!
NavyVet- I find it interesting that you weren't the least bit concerned about the Constitution or international law when this program was first started... by the last president in office. I'm betting you really jumped up and down when the citizens of New Orleans were disarmed after Katrina, weren't you. The Constitution being your primary concern as it is. San Francisco's a great town full of diversity and celebration of our Constitutional rights - that you would make such a childish statement says a lot about you.
Fabienne - see comment directly above. Your selective outrage is duly noted.
Skiddy - nobody's talking about fully automatic weapons, even if that's what your talking points reference. FYI - I'm not anti-gun, I grew up with guns. I'm against criminals, terrorists and crazies having guns.
RicCastaga - that tired fear-mongering doesn't really work - didn't work with Clinton, won't work with Obama, especially in light of the fact that he's expanded gun rights in his first term. Don't let the little details get in your way though... What else did you learn from Marx?
You mean Bush's operation that tracked the guns once they reached Mexico and was run in conjunction with the Mexican Authorities?
The issue with F&F is that guns were not tracked once they crossed the border, and that the Mexican Authorities had no idea the operation was taking place until they started finding the weapons at crime scenes.
Even if the previous operation weren't set up like it was, how does that make it ok to do now? If guns from Wide Receiver had shown up at the crime scenes of murdered Border Patrol agents, the left would have been screaming for Bush's head...Obama should feel lucky that Issa is only pushing on Holder and not the White House itself.
Glad to hear you are against criminals having guns, pedestrian, me too. But the gun show "loophole" is fabricated garbage by the anti gunners to take away our 2nd amendment rights, bit by bit, just as they did in UK. And disarming law abiding citizens has proven the crime rate goes up, not down.
Another stupid, hate driven Republican witch hunt. This is a non issue. The Republicans have not accomplished a single thing for Americans since being elected to the House. Americans will never forgive them. Republicans have done nothing but obstruct and prevent real progress with the numerous Republican created crises the country is now facing. The Republican idiots don't get it and won't get it.
another pathetic left-wing hypocrite making asinine excuses for this latest obama administration screw-up
look at obama's "accomplishments. he's manged to triple the debt of the Bush years already; and have 4 straight years of trillion-dollar budget deficits. btw loon Repubs are STILL the minority Party cuz Dems control the Senate and the White House. imagine how much they could get done if Dems werent OBSTRUCTING?
It's called corruption and a cover up,not a witch hunt.
YOUR pathetic liberal whine is that Dems never had a filibuster-proof majority. neither did bush. so if the Republican minority can some how "obstruct" obama to the point HE'S A FAILURE then how come you lib losers still cry that you were helpless against bush when you Dems had a MAJORITY FOR THE LAST 2 YEARS OF BUSH? vetoes? really loony leftist? bush is one of the least vetoing presidents of all time
Silly brian...don't know know the difference yet???
Republican in the cross-hairs = Investigation is warranted and necessary.
Democrat in the cross-hairs = Witch hunt.
Fab - just check the FACTS - Bush vetoed the fewest , but the ONLY bills he vetoed were the Democratic sponsored bills.
Also the FACT is that the Democrats did not have a Super-Majority during those years.
If you really knew what you were talking about , you wouldn't have to make things up - oh but then , you wouldn't have a platform to whine about would you?
Talk about pathetic. Get some anger management courses.
Fabby, baby. You do know that Bush left a 7 trillion dollar tab sitting around for the next guy to pay for, right? I guess you'd prefer a default and a depression? You guys are so bitter and filled with hate for Americans... so sad.
Ped, what's the debt now after 3 1/2 years of Pres. Obama? The real hate and bigotry is on the left, but they are too brainwashed and tunnelvisioned to see it. But you keep being a homer for your party and keep giving blind support to your cause.
You're right, Old. Obama should have just busied himself paying of Bush's debt and let the entire country sink right into a depression. How dare he invest in America and try to correct the path we were headed down. Shame on me for supporting such action. ;)
Oh yeah, that now 15 trillion dollar debt involves the pres. Obama's trillions as "investment." Those "shovel ready jobs weren't as shovel ready as we thought..." (pres. Obama's words, not mine). Take off the blinders.
I see 22 straight months of private sector job growth, Old. I'm betting one or two involve shovels. The President offered the GOP over $4 trillion in deficit reduction and they ran away rather than raise Romney's tax rate 2% (up to almost 16% - 2% less than what I paid this year). Take off the blinders, indeed.
Bought into that false flag play hook line and sinker didn't you? PT Barnam would be proud. There is a sucker born every minute. (and a disproportionate number of them live in SF)
Indeed! Take of the blinders! 22 months of private sector job growth, when only recently first time jobless claims fell under the 400,000 mark!!? Do you really believe that? Try reading the CBO's estimate of the upcoming economy, Ped--it's not pretty and I hope it's wrong, but if this decade parallels the 30's, it won't be. In addition, if the president is that interested in debt reduction, why didn't he do so when he had both houses of congress? He used the so-called "deal" as a device of political convenience while at the same time insisting the the debt ceiling be raised. Actions do speak louder than words--on both sides of the aisle. FYI: I used to be a Truman/JFK Democrat, but it looks as if there are few if any of them around.
Yes, Old. I believe it. I also believe that it's FAR better than the 750,000 + a month we were losing when Obama came into office. What I find incredible is that people like you think it should have been EASY for this President to fix. Just do what the people who were in charge during the crash recommended, right? He never had a super majority either - a fact (along with the entire Bush presidency) you seem very fond of forgetting. He had 58 one year and 57 the next.
Document for me where I said it would be easy, PED. Document for me where I blindly supported the GW Bush presidency, PED. Much of what he did, I opposed. That's what I mean when I say take off the blinders. I am a student of history (in addition to languages). I looked at the policies of the 30's and the results of them using raw data, like employment figures. I also looked at the Japanese model of their "lost decade" using raw data and I compared that with what is being done in our nation today. Too many parallels to ignore coupled with that one frighteningly undeniable fact--a 15 trillion dollar debt that this administration sees fit to increase.
That's the lie, Old. This administration does not see fit to increase the 15 trillion dollar debt. Your post is a great example of "dazzle with my brilliance, then baffle with my bullsh1t!" Any student of history would understand the value of compromise. Unfortunately, for the GOP these days compromise with this president is a dirty word no matter what it costs this country. While they whistle, the deficit grows.
Sorry Ped, it's the truth. No BS. Sorry you can't get past your ideology. True believers rarely can. Pres. Obama is no compromiser--despite all his recent talk. The words I remember well from his mouth are these early on in his administration when offered republican ideas: "I won."
What did Holder and Obama know and when did they know it?
I think that in all actuality, Obama and Holder collectively know next to nothing, as demonstrated by their actions!
Any one on the left care to explain why the JD official had to take the 5th the other day in front of Congress? Or is it just more of the same "nothing to see here, move along, let's look at something else?"
Good question. Does anyone know what the documents may contain.. 1,400 out of 2000 guns is alot to go missing.
You got to hand it to the REPUKEALINS. They make you sick. The BIG show over GUNs and Control and they themselves preach LIKE THE NRA. No controls.
God this PARTY IS A MEGA JOKE. Get them out of OFFICE they are WASTING MY TAX DOLLARS AND ADDING TO THE DEFICIT !!!
Adding to the deficit? The same deficit that has had its highest marks since Obama took office? THAT deficit? Or the deficit caused by no budget since Democrats were in power? Or the deficit caused by the Senate NOT passing a budget after the GOP House passed one? THAT deficit?
as you can see the angry loony left is full of people that cant make a ratinal argument; the only thing they have is a rabid hatred of republicans; is it because they cant defend thier failed agenda?
Alain, you are talking about the left aren't you?
Uh Alain Dude do you have any idea what this is about? Try reading the article before you comment.
So, secret Energy meetings and refusing to testify by Bush officials on Iraq War and other potential crimes for 8 years- No Problem, yet Repubs are Angry about a tactic that was started under the Bush Regime?
This isn't about your side did it so we can too. Time to stop all the BS. I thought one of Obama's big thing was transparency in the government. Maybe he just meant about good things.....
Send the Kenyan Candidate back to Al Caponia.
This is a STING OP and we have to cry foul by the REPUKEALINS. THIS COMMITEE SHOULD BE DUMPED FIRED. Save the TAXPAYERS some DEFICIT MONEY?
Imagine that a sting operation gone bad ...and hey where was the outrage
Wonder how many US soldiers and innocents where killed with these...
Iraq army weapons wind up on black market
The New York Times
Sunday, December 10, 2006
But three types of American-issued weapons are now readily visible in shops and bazaars here as well: Glock and Walther 9 mm pistols, and unused Kalashnikovs from post-Soviet Eastern European countries. These are three of the principal types of the 370,000 weapons purchased by the United States for Iraq's security forces, a program that was criticized by a special inspector-general this fall for, among other things, failing to properly account for the arms.
The weapons are easy to find, resting among others in the semihidden street markets here, where weapons are sold in tea houses, the back rooms of grocery kiosks, cosmetic stores and rug shops or from the trunks of cars.
"Every type of gun that the Americans give comes to the market," said Brig. Hassan Nouri, chief of the political investigations bureau for the Sulaimaniya district. "They go from the U.S. Army to the Iraqi army to the smugglers. I have captured many of these guns that the terrorists bought."
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003470337_iraqarms10.html
laughable. idiotic comparison. Bush's AG didnt order iraqis to sell the weapons given to them for thier own protection.
To..Fab""
No not at all ...
Fab has a point. In the first case, you're talking about corruption in the Iraqi army. In the second, you're talking about, at best, gross negligence in the American Department of Justice. Which one do we have greater authority over?
To C.Smith"""
My point was missing weapons and how those weapons were used and against who..
The teabagger repugs need a scapegoat to put the blame on someone or something for a program that started under a repug administration. The only thing that repugs are interested in is getting more guns into the hands of those god-fearin' and law abidin' people who vote for repugs. Remember guns don't kill people, repugs kill people.
poor poor leftard; the program MORPHED into an illegal and immoral operation under obama
Okay, now show us an instant where an American was killed by any guns that were sold under the Bush-era Fast and Furious-type programs. And if the program was sooooo bad, why on earth did Dems CONTINUE it? You lefties always want to blame the GOP, and yet you continue many of the same policies and don't make changes when you have the power to do so. Crying about the GOP doing it and condemning them for it, then continuing it, is hypocritical at best. Just like crying about the "Bush tax cuts", then extending them!
Odd because all of the violence seems to be coming from the left-wing side. OWS, Jared Loughner, Maj. Hassan , aren't those your type of people?
Yes, it started under Bush, it was also stopped under Bush when they realized it was a flawed program. It was restarted and enlarged a couple years later under Obama. So how is this Bush's fault again?
You're a DICK ... clueless !
Only the people at the top change when an administration changes. The people who started the programs under Bush are probably still at DOJ now and convinced higher ups that the program was a good one and why not run it again!
Not everything is politics.
Hey, remember when the republican house got members of the Bush Admn. in for questioning about 9/11, and then the Iraq War lies??
Funny, me neither.
Thats becasue you were obviously only 5 then. Why not Google the 9/11 Commission when you get a chance.
right you are loon; what lies?
Jethro, the 9/11 commission isn't "congress" - additionally, Cheney and the chimp got to offer testimony in secret, together, OFF the record..
What lies?? LOL!!! You're kidding, right...
You drooling right wing goons are amazing..
Lets hold onto our guns and religion and send Kenyan Barry back to Al Caponia.
I am amazed anyone in congress wants the facts about anything. I would think the last thing they would want is for the public to know any facts. Republican candidates for president this time either don't know the facts or they are lying. Democrats are no better. This must mean that congress has finished with the Roger Clements hearings and whether or not steroids is a gateway drug for professional ball players.
What an absolute joke. I'm sure the Mexican police were thrilled to have 1,700 brand new assault weapons crossing their border to arm the drug cartel. Don't we also laundry drug money from the Cartels as well as well as large shipments of drugs? Under the same, "we have to do it to really catch them excuse".
Are there not rules regarding this conduct? Lines that our government does not cross. Was it always like this and we just were not aware?
Ok I would like to conduct a quick survey here!!! 1 rule: You cant blame the bush administration. Now, I would like to see how many Democrats can be honest and admit the the Obama white house dropped the ball on this one. Anyone? Its ok to admit a mistake, no one is perfect. Next week we will move onto Solyndra.
All I hear are crickets chirping...
Obama did not drop the ball. Fast and Furious was devised by the Obama administration, carried out by Holder and the ATF to create negative publicity aimed at shutting down gun shows and dealers that sold assault style weapons. The Mexican Government has been working with the US to determine the most effective method to severely hinder gun sales along the boarder states. That is why Holder does not want to release information on this operation. The Obama administration does not want the American people to find out the true intention of this operation. The Obama administration wanted to increase the flow of weapons to Mexico in order to give credibility to their plan. Fast and Furious was designed to indirectly assault the second Amendment.
Those aren't crickets, that is the cash register.... More dollars being spent. Some idiots above spoke of G.W Bush's spending and yes because of the war it was out of control. Problem is they won't admit that in 3 years Barry Obama has spent more then every president from George Washington up through George Bush 1. He has equaled and surpassed the spending by EVERY OTHER PRESIDENT. They love to condemn GW but Barry is spending at a rate of 3x GW. Libs won't discuss that, it's OK because he is a Dem.
Impeach Holder and Barry Soetero for lying to Congress.
leftsux, good idea, if only it could happen.
WE can do that after Bush II and Cheney get charged and sentenced for war crimes. Don't hold your breath.
Too much leftwing nut sh/t has warped your mind. Go take your meds.
What war crimes? Barry is killing more terrorists then GW did, he said so. Holder should be in prison for lying under oath.... But then again so did CLinton and he didn't go to jail. How do you know when a Dem is Lying,,,,???? his mouth is moving.