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Subscribe to RSSUpdated at 1:35 p.m. ET on Feb. 3: In a statement sent Friday, a spokesperson for Brooklyn Law School said about the lawsuit: “These claims are without merit and we will vigorously defend against them in court.”
Original post: Adam Bevelacqua graduated from Brooklyn Law School last year with $100,000 in debt but high hopes for his future.
He passed the bar on his first try in New York and had internships to highlight on his resume. And, according to his research, the school’s job placement rate for new graduates was between 90 to 95 percent.
But Bevelacqua, 29, is no longer as optimistic.
“I’ve been looking for work ever since,” Bevelacqua told msnbc.com. “The jobs aren’t really there.”
On Wednesday, Bevelacqua joined 50 other law school graduates from across the country who sued their alma maters, alleging they were misled about job prospects and burdened with huge amounts of student debt.
The 12 lawsuits mark the latest round of litigation against law schools for allegedly misrepresenting their employment data. Last year, similar lawsuits were filed against New York Law School, Thomas M. Cooley Law School and Thomas Jefferson School of Law.
“We believe that some in the legal academy have done a disservice to the profession and the nation by saddling tens of thousands of young lawyers with massive debt for a degree worth far less than advertised,” said David Anziska, a New York City attorney for the plaintiffs in three of the lawsuits filed.
He said the goal was to get law schools “to take responsibility, provide compensation and commit to transparency.”
The issue of transparency has gotten national attention beyond the lawsuits.
Last year, Sen. Barbara Boxer, D-Calif., and Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla. , asked the Department of Education to investigate the “job placement rates of American law school graduates; indicating whether such jobs are full- or part-time positions, whether they require a law degree, and whether they were maintained a year after employment." A call Thursday by msnbc.com to Sen. Boxer's office was not immediately returned.
The American Bar Association has already taken some steps to improve accountability among the law schools it accredits. In January, an ABA committee approved rules that could force law schools to disclose more detailed information about graduate job placement.
A call to the ABA by msnbc.com wasn’t immediately returned on Thursday.
Bevelacqua, who lives in Long Island, said he decided to join the lawsuit against Brooklyn Law in hopes of pushing the schools to provide more accurate data, especially as they continue to increase their tuitions and enrollments. The current tuition at Brooklyn Law, not including housing and living expenses, is more than $48,000 annually. “Schools won’t take people seriously unless there is an economic threat,” he said.
Besides Brooklyn Law, the schools named in the latest round of lawsuits are Albany Law School, Albany, N.Y.; Hofstra Law School, Hempstead, N.Y.; California Western, San Diego, Calif., Golden Gate University, San Francisco; Southwestern Law School, Los Angeles, Calif.; University of San Francisco School of Law, San Francisco; IIT Chicago-Kent College of Law, Chicago; DePaul University College of Law, Chicago; The John Marshall Law School, Chicago; Florida Coastal School of Law, Jacksonville, Fla.; and Widener University School of Law, in Wilmington, Del.
A spokeswoman at Brooklyn Law told msnbc.com that the school had just gotten the complaint and was unable to comment on it. She did point out employment statistics for the class of 2010, reflected on the school’s website, which showed an overall job placement rate of 88.1 percent.
Bevelacqua hopes he’ll be sworn into the bar next month, when he plans to start taking cases as a solo practitioner. In the meantime, he’s been making ends meet with temporary jobs, including a babysitting job this week that promises to pay him $150.
While he’s always wanted to be a lawyer, working on criminal and family court cases, he says he’d tell prospective students think twice before making that investment.
“If they’re going to law school because they think it will open up a lot of employment doors for them, “ he said, “I’d tell them to forget it.”
More content from msnbc.com and NBC News
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Yup and we hope Presidnt Obama takes notice of this and crackes down on the student loan end of this cozy racket too. there's more than enough false claims tofill a couple of jails at least. Hey and that does create jobas forleagal professionals.
A sad day when they start eating (suing) their own. Some value to the law degree - sue the school.
So the point is there are no jobs and tuition is wasted? Abandon all hope.
That is exactly the situation. No joke, no shenanigans.
Law schools ruin thousands of lives of our brightest kids every year.
OK, just what should those bright kids do? I looked at the future professions that will pay article yesterday - nurses were about the only degree that was paying - and that is a 2 year degree. Are the tuition loans all a fraud?
Something else.
Not be told if they put up 3 years and 150K they will get a job making 80K.
That is the only point. The information provided is misleading if not outright lies. That is the issue.
Schools, who are nonprofit, have a special place in society and they shouldn't mislead the public in order to get students on the hook.
Sound like Bevelacqua found himself a job as a sole practitioner. Well is looks like he just lost his first case. OOPs!
Seems like justice to me. The law schools get screwed by teaching students who plan on making a living doing the same to everyone else.
Grinspoon - There have not been 2 year nursing degrees for some time. Nursing school today is a four year program to become an RN. The non-degree RN programs have not been around for at least a decade or more. Your information is a little out of date.
As for the subject of the article, there are a lot more lawyers than jobs these days. Even the ones who do get jobs find themselves working 70 to 80 hours a week as a junior associate for maybe $80,000. This is after spending well over $100,000 to get a law degree to start with. If you want a career where there are plenty of jobs and you do not get worked like a dog, go into the science, technology, engineering, and mathematics fields. There are still plenty of jobs around for people with STEM related degrees.
Grinspoon said "nurses" not RN. It only takes 2 years to be an LPN, sometimes only 18 months and your not paying the high costs for a Colleges or Universities "name"...
If these students were so "smart" they would have checked on their own on employabllity. This country has had an excess of lawyers for at least 20 years!
I did say nurses - I do know some RNs with two years and the test. If you are interested checkout:
http://www.allnursingschools.com/nursing-careers/registered-nursing/rn-degree?lob=nursing
A degree in registered nursing is the foundation for a career in the field of health care. Credentials can be acquired by completing one of these three programs offered at many registered nursing schools:
As to this article, it leaves out the claim the school made. Their website is fairly specific about the class of 2010 and I would think they could defend it. Whatever the student read into the statement about what he might expect, I guess that's why he became a lawyer. Your mileage may vary. Do you see a fraudulent claim in their website?
http://www.brooklaw.edu/Admissions/statisticsandprofile/employmentstatistics/selectedrecentplacements.aspx?
JS in SD, I believe you are wrong. RN programs are based out of community colleges in California and are 2 year programs. For example
The four year program you might be referring to grants the nursing student a BSN (a Bachelor's of Science in Nursing), and these are awarded at 4 year colleges and universities. There are also RN to BSN programs (again, offered at 4 year colleges). So, the basic RN degree can be obtained in 2 years.
There are absolutely 2 year nursing schools that lead to an RN license! They are everywhere. The point is that you should only do what you really feel you were meant to do and are good at. [Definitely don't go into nursing or any other profession for the $$.] The degree is buying an education- not really a job- unfortunately.
Actually, JS in SD, the vast majority of nurses only obtain 2-year degrees. South Dakota was alone in the US in requiring bachelor degrees as an entry level to the nursing profession for many years. However, even SD repealed this requirement in 2005 due to pressures from the state's nurses who felt they were disadvantaged compared to nurses from neighboring states and Canada who were not required to have a 4-year degree.
I am intimately aware of that issue as the SD law was repealed just as I finished my senior law school project - with much appreciated help from the president of the SD Board of Nursing - in which I was going to propose a similar law in Texas. All my support advised against pushing my bill since SD had stood alone among the states for so long, I didn't have a snowball's chance!
That said, the job market is very hard! I am glad to be an employed lawyer (who is also a RN)! Law school is never a waste, though...you don't have to practice law to use that knowledge. Good luck to everyone!
Actually, it was North Dakota......sorry, SD, your name threw me!
I'm a nursing student. Yes, you can get a ADN (associate) or BSN (bachelor) degree in 2 years AFTER YOU COMPLETE 2 YEARS OF PREREQUISITES FIRST. Misleading, ain't it?
Before regulation in American industry, Lawyers were living off the hog. Now swing pools are built without diving boards, metal monkey bars aren't being built, safety regulations on job sites aenforced by commitees of inspectors, Doctors and Hospitals rely on drug and patient history databases, etc... Tort law is in decline, we need more bad guys and negligence so we can get our lawyers back in business.
Perhaps these lawyers could sell their expertise to China in order to recover some of our trade deficit.
Great point Laurjsd.
I went to college after being in the workforce for 10 years. I thought it was going to be tough competing with all those young bright minds with nothing to do all day but homework - I still had to work 40. Two things made it pretty easy-
I think a couple of years discovering what they might like to be would serve better than just becoming what was the "catch of the day" or sounds good to daddy. The great job changes every few years - was engineering, computer science, legal, and now medical. A career is a long time - better to find out what you like before borrowing a lot of money. JMO
He should sue Obama next.
So if I walk into a diner that has a "World's Greatest Coffee" sign, does that mean I can sue them if it doesn't taste like the best coffee in the world?
Well the schools should have ample people and experience to take on the would be young litigators. We will find out if they taught them everything they know!!
Just when you thought you had heard it all.........!!!!!!!!
What is the line from Animal House?? "Face it you f'cked up."" You trusted us!"
I bet there are a lot of this glut of unemployed shysters that would jump at that dime. LOL!!
I just finished my degree in Construction Management with no job available...Do you think I should sue too? I racked up a $75,000 bill.
Young people in college should research prospects for employment, prior to enrolling in any graduate program.
Much like Real Estate Agents, there are far more lawyers than there are customers for their services. Thus, the "ambulance chasers," and the "television commercial lawsuit swipes." There are so many "lawyers" in California, that most are working night-shift at their local Mac's. New York? The mind reels at the possibilities.
Unless the school specifically offered those persons jobs, post-graduation, this suit shall serve only to hone the would-be-lawyers' skills at making something out of nothing.
30 years ago there were roughly six times the number of students in pre-law as there were in engineering. The reality is when you have six times as many parasites as producers in society, that society is destined to elect a parasite to the office of president. Here we are. Now over half of our country thinks the world owes them a living. We're witnessing the decline and fall of the American Empire. The entitlement mentality has doomed us to mediocrity.
I have been practicing law for three years. Not sure where JS in SD got his info about associates at $80,000. Sure isn't in South Dakota. I've got $100k debt, can't pay it back. I am a solo currently, trying to find a salaried position, just to survive. I'd settle for $35,000, and I am in my mid-50's. I netted $8,000 last year. The law schools love the fed loan program, and it seems a new law school starts up just about every year. It has to end. And no, we aren't all bloodsuckers. I work hard to represent my clients, who are struggling with debt and/or marital issues, and need a lawyer to guide them through the maze. For those of you who think lawyers are all bloodsuckers, I sure hope you never need one. (or maybe I should hope you will need one real soon, so you can learn a thing or two.)
I went to college for 6 years. Finishing with a GPA of 3.86 with a Masters Degree in Business. Humm, let me see. The school I went to promised me that I would get a GOOD job when i was finished. NOT SO. I have outstanding student loans and still have yet to get a GOOD job in the my field of study. You may be wondering.. what school did you attend. ITT-TECH. Receiving an Associate Degree, Bachelors Degree, as well as a Masters Degree. I have student loan bills and no income to pay them. Can I sue ITT-TECH? SHOULD I SUE ITT-TECH for their false claims and dumb ass commercials where former students CLAIM they got a good job? YEA RIGHT... PRESIDENT OBAMA, you want to fix the system? CLEAR ALL THE OUTSTANDING STUDENT LOANS FOR FORMER STUDENTS WHO CANNOT AFFORD TO PAY THEM BECAUSE THEY CAN'T AFFORD TO PAY RENT, UTILITY BILLS, ETC AND PAY OFF A STUDENT LOAN.
The phrase "caveat emptor" comes to mind. Looks like these budding lawyers didn't do their due diligence.
Students need to do their due diligence and not rely on the institution that is recruiting/ educating them. Its all a business! Ask yourself, why do top notch universities recruit the top students? To own the right to call themselves the top rank school and assign a top price tag!!
That is the issue. The information is not available to do proper due diligence. The information available is misleading. I really can't be more clear about it.
@ Rick -
Actually I think this country has had an excess of lawyers since 1776....
It's a little difficult to do "due diligence." Schools will flatly lie about employability. Graduate schools--particularly in the humanities--exist mainly to produce graduate students who will teach the undergraduates. There is no other purpose for these graduate students, as only about 1 in 10 will actually be able to get an academic position--and the master's or doctoral degree becomes an impediment to their getting a job. Everyone assumes that a person with a master's or PhD who cannot get a job in their "real field" must have cheated his or her way through or be incredibly stupid.
Potential graduate students are "groomed" by professors the way pedophiles groom victims--they seek out the people who are most likely to be credulous, impress upon them that they are "special," and convince them that they should go to graduate school. Unless professors have warm bodies in their graduate classes, they wind up having to teach undergraduates--so, you don't actually expect them to tell the truth, right?
Students think that schools and professors are sincerely interested in them--one doesn't figure out the scam until one is so far along that one has to finish. Many graduate degrees--heck, most undergraduate degrees--are completely useless. The studies which show that people with college degrees are "employed" are disingenuous--yes, they are "employed," but often not in their own fields. One can do much better with a degree from an accredited technology center.
There is a law which forces schools to give information about how likely one is to get a job after graduating (I don't know the specifics)--that is why the law school was giving out the figure. But, these figures are massaged to make the school look good. One cannot get raw information on one's own--how could one call all the students and do one's own research? So, yes, when very clever people with advanced degrees want to fool people into taking professional or graduate degrees, they are going to be able to fool most people. A stronger law--one which makes it criminal to misrepresent the information--is needed. Or, a law which requires that the information be gathered by objective third parties is needed.
In general, though, unless one is studying for a degree in a field that currently has too few people (respiratory therapy used to be one), it's probably better right now to learn a trade like computer forensics or accounting or nursing (which is a two-year degree, depending on where one is studying).
It's really sad when college professors lie to their students just to avoid having to teach undergraduates--and when they don't give a flying flip about causing the students to go into massive, crippling, debt when they have no chance of getting a job. All professors, not just law professors--it's like being lied to by your doctor (which, of course, happens) or your clergyperson (which, of course, happens) or some other person you think you should be able to trust. There really are just no professions left with any integrity. Sad.
Didn't someone Tell these young educated law students it's a tough out there jobs are hard to come by. No one has money to hire $300.00 dollar an hour attorneys. Oh I for got they have paralegals do the research for them.
This is one of the most fundamental problems in our country regarding education. Young people today are taking on far too much debt under this illusion that a piece of paper will automatically score them a high paying job and will make them rich. It's pure propoganda, yet the American sheep continue to follow this belief just like those who pay to play the lottery, where only a one out of a million will actually achieve it....not very good odds I might add.
A military recruiter recently told me "You ask a HS senior today what he want's to be and their answer will be RICH. 20 years ago you asked the same question to a HS senior and they would answer a 'teacher, doctor, lawyer, accountant, mechanic, etc. professions that crossed a very large spectrum, because careers back then weren't based on what it PAID, but the pleasure they personally derived from it while also benefitting others and their communities."
The days of Community and Self-sacrifice have been replaced with Personal Debt and Personal Greed. BIG Sigh.
Shut all the law schools down for 10 yrs. That ought to deplete the bottom feeders ranks. The country might even get some real work done.
Dude:
You have the ability to make your own "rain!" Why on earth are you waiting on someone else to hire and pay you a salary? Make the money yourself?
Didn't anybody teach you this in Law School? Ah.. duh, dude.
Irrelevent. Did you read the article? it's about law schools making completely false job-placement claims. And yes, he is hanging out his shingle and planning to practice as a solo practitioner. That doesn't make it right for schools like Thomas Cooley (the worst law school in America) to claim 90-95% job placement when it's not true.
If he paid $48,000 a year to get his degree, he's going to need a job that can pay off about $144,000 in student loans.
Any suggestions on a self-employment opportunity that will do that?
yes, become one of Obama's zars. I understand that us taxpayers pay those illegals good money.
Ace - whatever school you went to, you should ask for a refund. They forgot to teach you spelling.
Is EVERYTHING in your world viewed through FOX-issued Obama-colored glasses? (Guess what - he really is colored! You can take off the glasses now.)
You would think that a law school would know better than to try to screw over lawyers. They just spent years teaching them how to get even when people rip them off.
It's about transparency. Sometimes the best way to get an organization to change its practices is to hit them financially.
It's the same reason why some activist groups can get television shows taken off the air. Just let the major companies that advertise during those shows that they will be boycotted. Those companies will pull their ads. When that major ad money stops, the prices for the ad space drops, and the shows eventually get the axe. That's part of what happened to Glen Beck's show on Fox News. The ads during that show went from mainstream companies to the 'sell us your gold'-type companies. Activist groups threatened a boycott and ad revenues dwindled. It's kind of like legal blackmail.
Jedi Mind Trick - No noone teaches you to make rain.
And he's waiting for salary because the school told him he would get one to justify the costs.
Please re-read the article.
Correction, Most univesities are For Profit. Community colleges may be an exception. That is why the tuition keeps going up, much faster than the rate of inflation, to pay boneses, etc. Besides, if all these people who are to become future lawyers can't even do a little research to see if its profitable, how are they going to do any research to help anyone else? Besides, I've NEVER seen a guarantee from a school to make sure people get and keep jobs. Just a thought.
It's not just the law schools making these promises. Heard the ads for undergraduate and graduate degress and how those with degrees earn exponentially more than those without a degree? Now we have no jobs or those lucky enough to get one don't earn enough to pay the school debt and live modestly. I have almost $65,000 in school debt an MBA and no job. If I'm lucky enough to have social security I'll end up seeing that reduced by unpaid schools loans.
Why can't students figure it out. If the degree is easy to get and lots of people get it why would it be of much value. Get just about any engineering degree and companies will line up to hire. When you look at who graduates with these degrees it is almost hard to find someone who does not need a h1-b via to work
Scooter's Girl -
Yep. Universities use Professional Schools to underwrite the undergrads, that's why more and more keep opening. They play off and feed our social knowledge that grad degrees = higher salaries.
It all depends upon whether the placement rates are based on facts or if the schools are knowingly cooking their numbers. Its hard to see any major fraud, though. You go to law school to get a legal education. Presumably these graduates got exactly what they contracted for -- a law degree. No school's placement office can guarantee that you'll get a job. All they really can do is act as an exchange for people seeking to hire and those seeking to get hired. That's really it. Add in the fact that the economy has tanked and legal hiring is more selective and competive than ever. At admissions time, no school can predict what the job market will be like when a student gets ready to enter the job market -- three years later after graduation and the bar exam. If schools knowingly falsified placement rates, that may be something to consider. Other than that...not so much.
Thank you for the summary.
That is exactly the issue - the placement rates are falsified and misleading, as well as the salary numbers. Noone in the article said that the schools should guarantee job placements.
What they should do is present a realistic picture of employment, and not count flipping burger and making 160K at Cravath as the same thing, which they currently do.
Are you people really that gullible? This is LIFE, there are no guarantees of anything!
again, nothing about guarantees
just asking that schools do not mislead in their marketing materials, and you're arguing that they should? Really?
When schools report such-and-such percent employment they do not mean LAWYER jobs. I am pretty sure that they are allowed to - and do - take into account ANY kind of employment. Babysitting, waiting tables, part-time temporary document review, ANYTHING. If you are making money in any legal way at all, they will count you in and will mislead the new crop of attorney wanna-bes with those statistics.
I don't think these law schools need to worry much if someone they trained is suing them because he can't find a job...
Lawyers may be at the top of the unemployed and over extended graduates but colleges and universities are pumping out graduates with big student loans in other low demand degrees, while we import folks from other countries to fill jobs in key technical and medical fields.
Typically a student can only graduate with around 25K in fed student loans form undergrad, something like 6K a year. Private student loans and parent loans are another matter.
There is no such yearly limit on grad school loans, that is why the law school issue is a much bigger deal. Graduating with 25K sucks, but thats essentially car payment without a car (actually less cuz you can pay over a longer period of time.)
150K of law school loans + 25K in undergrad = soul-crippling debt, making housing, marriage and children financially impossible for many
Roger - companies are importing workers in medical and technical fields because they can get them for less money, not because American workers aren't available.
I know this for a fact - my last employer did it.
Do you really believe there are that many jobs in America that no American is available to do?
Large firms only hire the top 10% of law school graduates from accredited top tier law schools. That is known at the outset when you begin law school. If you understand that figure, then you can understand that the other percent employed are not making the annual salary to compensate for the degree, and it is your own ignorance that has put you where you are. It then becomes an issue of whether it is for the money or the education. If you are going to be a lawyer, a little due dililgence on your own before you proceed would be reasonable. Believing what you are told is not good lawyering.
Please show me a law school publication that states what you say or, I'll even take a "getting for law school"
book that says it
As for not believing what you're told is bad lawyering - It sounds good, but doesn't really make any sense in the macro view.
Schools are nonprofit orgs, and therefore given special status by our society to be for the public good. You believe that they should be allowed to product misleading materials and trap unsuspecting, naive, wittle boys and girls in massive, life-long debt?
Thank god, fewer lawyers will be reproducing!
Swimming in Law School Debt, #9.4- Well said. Excellent. It's astounding to see how entrenched, permeated and mindlessly jaded Society is, as a way of Life; to the point that with just the simplest of opening questioning of impropriety, the Messenger is tackled and broadsided, message ripped from him, chewed up and spewed (take that!) in regurgitations of incredulously petty justifications; and "you made your bed, now lie in it" AND "don't let the door hit you on the way out!" (IS IT OKAY TO MISLEAD AND REPRESENT?) Apparently so. What's not okay appears to be questioning, in any way, what's being done to you, what it's like, and how you're experiencing it! This guy said he always wanted to be a Lawyer. It's a damn disgusting shame that the SCAMMING 1% Law Firms that were around before the height of and joining of the "SCAMMING" SELF-FULFILLING LAW SCHOOLS have ruined it for him. The ABA is a dispicable 1% Ruling Association, too! Sincerely, Good luck to him.
Thanks MR. You too am smart!
For all the "youre entitled viewpoint is ruining this country" people. I replied, its actually a lack of entitlement that has been our problem since 1979 when real wages started to decline v. inflation. People learned to shut their mouths and just take whatever the world handled them.
Now, we're at a point where when anyone asks for a fair shake at things and a somewhat level playing field, or not to be lied to by massive organizaitions that controll the flow of information needed to make an educated decision, that person is somehow wrong/uncool/entitled/spoiled/weak/you name it.
Look at how people rip our litigious society, (oh wont someone think of the children?) People sue to enforce their legal rights. They have, or believe they have been, wronged and take people to court to enforce their Rights. Are theyre abuses? Sure. Are there abuses in anything made of people as all people are fallable and therefore, any organization made of up people will be exponentially fallable? Yep. But in a time and age where I cant turn on cable news without hearing about Rights! and America! and The Constitution! and a group of men who destroy tons of tea to protest not having rights and being controlled by Corporation and Crown, how in the world do we begrudge someone enforcing their legal rights? Especially when all theyre asking for is to not be lied into placing their financial future on the line.
Swimming in Law School Debt, #9.7- Your Welcome. I'm very busy in "Fried Chaquita!-land today but absolutely didn't want to miss the opportunity to just get this in, for now, maybe I'll be able to get back to this post sometime; who knows: with all due "respect", WELCOME TO THE TRENCH! and, It's also in The Declaration of Independence, I think (fried today) that If you have the "ABILITY".....you also and automatically have the "RESPONSE-ABILITY". (That's from the movie 'National Treasure' where Nicholas Cage is reading or quoting from the section related to Depotism). I've heard it elsewhere, too. And the battle rages, unfortunately! because it doesn't have to be like this, shouldn't be like this, and needs to be stopped. I believe The Constitution is a living circumspect document that gives just that "response-ability", as The Crown Jewel, inalienable "Individual", not Corporate Free Speech "Right and Protection". Substitute Law School with: the Court, itself; Congress (House and Senate) who continue to not figure out that they are part of "The Government" that they keep deflectively railing against; Corporations; Technology; The Private Sector; The Quasi-Pseudo-Not-for-Profits; State Government; Municipal Government; the PETA/Non-PETA Animal Control Officers and The Parking Police! (before etc, etc, etc) Society seems to be so inundated, inflicted and afflicted down-in-the-trench with no "ability" left for "response"-ability because their minds belong to some other 3rd to 10th party to their actual lives and minds. And "Like-it" on Facebook is the only thing that makes your mind or existence "real", "validated", and "justified". (You, yourself, personhoodly, just don't own it anymore!)
My 2 favorite teams, Niners and Saints are OUT! But, Super Sunday to you, anyway! Back to "Fried-french-toast-on-the-side" Land for me, for now.
As a Florida lawyer, the job situation is terrible in Florida and getting worse. And it's because of these mediocre-to-rotten private law schools that keep opening up here. When Ave Maria opens, I think that makes 13 Florida law schools. There are not enough jobs to support tens of thousands of new baby lawyers graduating every year. And the complete lack of reciprocity with other states means that we can't easily move to another state to practice.
Can you not simply take the bar in what ever state you want to move to in order to be able to practice in that state?
For my money I think the government's incentives for student loans have completely fouled up the market for a college education, regardless of the degree you seek. The interest rates are too low, the promises of grandeur upon graduation too high. This is a major bubble, like the real estate market, that should be popping soon. All I can say is it's about damn time.
Simply taking the bar isn't "simply taking the bar." And the legal profession isn't like others, lawyers make their career by understanding the local law of their market, that's what you get paid for. So what Im saying is there is an inherent commercial immobility to being a lawyer.
Again, the issue is the schools putting out misleading information about job placement and median salaries for 1st year graduates to justify those costs.
So, maybe students should actually research the professions they are considering and do a simple cost-benefit analysis to determine if the cost of tuition is worth the benefits to be obtained in the future. There is an enormous amount of data available about job opportunities, starting, median and top-level salaries. A college degree is merely the price of admission to the game. It's up to the individual what they do with the opportunity once they are in the game. Unfortunately, we are cranking out a generation worth of people that believe everything should be handed to them because, so far in their lives, it pretty much has been. So now they are standing around waiting for somebody to take care of them - mom, dad, the government - and it's always somebody else's fault when things don't go as planned. Welcome to the entitlement era. As a side note - there are too damn many lawyers anyway.
Swimming -
FYI - There are certification tests for engineers and other professionals as well, not just lawyers - whether you believe it or not. I know because I'm an engineer, and licensed at that. I passed my test and I have to stay up-to-date on my licening and my education in order to be considered a professional.
Perhaps you should have studied something with a better job outlook.
You've both made the assumption that is actually the problem. It is currently impossible to do a complete due diligence on going to law school because the information provided is misleading and imcomplete. That is the issue.
I have not and am not arguing that people shouldn't look into something before they do it, I am saying along with this Plaintiff that they information needed to do a "cost benefit' analysis is not available.
Tammy - as for the certification, yes there probably are state by states for engineers (whether you believe it not? - not sure why you had to get snotty about it) But the difference is, you're skills translate better to mobility than being an attorney, math is math anywhere. Sure there are some regulation that probably differ (I believe it! i believe it! ok) but your entire skill set isnt around knowing those particular regulations for your state, they are a part of what you do. For an attorney, its all of what they do.
Sounds comparatively like the "glut" of mortgage brokers that popped up and saturated the market for the great sub-prime SCAM, that also got blamed on the "consumer end" of things, with consumers also, like these Law Students left holding the bag. (after everyone got their cut and commission first, though) History repeats and repeats and repeats, until somebody or Somebodies change it!
And another thing. Does anybody else find these older/newer tabs on the sides of these posts that just pop up and insistently take over if you accidentally get too close while trying to type out your post intrusively annoying beyond description?
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh!!1
All the law schools should garantee is that a student in good standing should pass the bar exam, and if the majority of students pass, anyone else shouldn't have a beef. Promising employment shouldn't be part of a school's responsibility. You would think that a school of law would know how to promote the value of their courses without putting themselves in a position to be sued.
I wouldn't garantee anyone in this generation a job due to many variables such as work ethic and personal responsibility which is lacking in the present graduates.
Yes, the school should have skin in the game.
Professional schools are not undergrad where you get a general education and learn about the world, they are trade schools and be held accountable for the employability numbers.
Agree that these law schools paint a rosy picture when its really a big fat turd layin out there. Putting students up to there eyeballs in debt is criminal. But, this country needs fever lawyers, not more. Hell, the US Congress and the Presidency are full of lawyers and look what a freakin mess lawyers have got us in.
Perhaps we should outlaw the ambulance chasers. They're only out for a fast buck anyway and aren't really interested in helping anyone. And Political Science? Another useless course of study...
Actually Tammy (if you want to believe it or not) "ambulance chasers" provide an important service in getting victims money to pay for their medical bills, pain & suffering, loss of life enjoyment.....if you've never needed one, count your blessings.
Are they well paid? Some of them. Yes, but its basically a commission based business.
Swimming in Law School Debt: If something sounds too good to be true - - it probably is. Good 'ol common sense and a 4 year degree trump as air head with a grad degree any day of the week. To quote Mr. F. Gump "stupid is as stupid does".
If we convert 100 Law Schools to Medical Schools, we would solve the health-care crisis.
yep it is bad, yesterday i saw 2 lawyers walking down the street with their hands in their own pockets
Hey, here's a thought, do the research yourself regarding which professions are going to be in demand in the coming years and pick a college and career path that makes sense. Did you ever stop to think that colleges and universities will do ANYTHING to sell their product and get butts in the seats? Don't trust everything they tell you, you have a mind of your own, don't you?
I'm tired of people making bad decisions and then blaming everyone around them without taking any personal responsibility. If this guy passed the bar exam on the first try he should be smart enough to start his own law practice rather than waiting for one of the large firms to hire him.
yep, going to school, getting good grades, aspiring to graduate school, being told that "yes yes the cost is high, but you'll get a job and the salary will be X" in all the research there is widely available and then being left holding the bag is being a big, whiny face
Agreed. These are the kids who DIDN'T get a job. If this kid had been hired somewhere he'd be praising his school. It's called due diligence. Its not difficult to find hiring trends, hot industries, etc. He paid for an education and he got one. Placement rates are not guarantees of employment.
again, no one's asking for guarantees, just saying schools shouldn't mislead
who said the school did? they posted job rates. If the rates that they post didn't meet your expectation of what they should put out, how is that on them? Schools will post job rates of any graduate who finds employment, irregardless of which field it is in, or what the prestige is. If you find that unacceptable, you had the right to ask them, before signing on the acceptance letter and taking out a loan, what their job placement statistics consisted of. If you assumed it was nothing but lawyers making six figure salaries, then that's on you.
I put off going grad school until I paid off my undergrad, and was making a good salary and was able to afford it. When I did go to grad school, I selected it based off of personal preference of what I wanted to do, costs, and actual job placement rates in the field that I wanted to go into. It meant asking MARKENTING PROFESSIONALS at the schools for more information, and it often meant asking several times until i got what i needed to make a 60k decision.
Does it suck that this kid is underemployed and in debt? yes. Is it the schools fault? nope. They did their job and educated him to the extent he was able to pass the bar.
Why is it so hard for everyone to believe that schools post unrealistic job placement numbers and salary expectations to lure students and improve their rankings?
This happens. Talk to anyone who has been to any grad school in the last decade. There's a lot of talk on this board from the "well lifes hard kid" crowd that is just misinformed.
Noone is talking about a guarantee.
But if a tax free entity that receives govt money lies to the public and puts members of that public in a bad spot on purpose, that entity should be forced to stop doing such. That's all any of us law grads are asking for. How do you force an entity to stop doing something bad when the govt wont act upon it? You sue in court.
Someone please explain how that's a bad or unreasonable request.
Swimming is Law School Debt" You're pissing up a rope. Be careful it's headed back your way. If you can't figure or understand what folks are telling you the remainder of your life will probably suck.
NC Vet--okay, I'll assume you are a veteran of military service. Let's say that the military tells you that the casualty rate for a service member is only 1%, that you will get guaranteed, 100% student support when you leave, and that your tour of duty will be 3 years.
Then, let us say that you sign on the dotted line--and then you find out that the casualty rate for enlisted personnel is closer to 10% (depending on your job), that you will get "guaranteed" 100% support if you meet a gazillion conditions (which are pretty nigh impossible to meet), and you also find out that your tour of duty can be extended and extended and extended.
In the end, you wind up injured with very poor care from the VA, you are getting perhaps 50% of your school covered, and you spent three times as long in the military as you thought you would. Is this fair?
One cannot gather first-hand information on success of students. There is no information, anywhere, which allows one to figure out what degrees are worth getting and which are not. Doctors are not doing well, engineers are not employed, lawyers have no work, etc. If the real information comes out, then the schools would all shut down for lack of students--do you seriously think that they are not lying through their teeth to keep people shelling out money for degrees?
It.is.not.right.for.public.institutions.to.lie.to.citizens.
Is that simple enough for you? It is one thing for a car dealer to lie to people; it is another thing for an institution which is supported by the public and which has a mandate to improve life for the citizens of the state (and which only exists because citizens of the state want their children educated) to LIE.
We have a government agency--and public universities are government-supported--which lies to people in order to get them to take out loans and waste time pursuing an opportunity that will never materialize and which leaves them in crippling debt. There is something wrong when a government agency can release misleading figures in order to replicate itself.
I really do not understand why "you folks" cannot figure this out. Why not de-fund the universities which are kicking out people with degrees they cannot use? Why not take away tenure from the professors who are perpetuating these lies? Why not dismantle the huge administrations in colleges which exist mostly to enrich a few people who are providing no useful service to your state? Your tax dollars are going to supporting a scam organization that is damaging the lives of the people you mean that organization to serve.
Is that really so hard to understand? People just want real information so that they can figure out which degree programs are actually worth the investment--they don't want guarantees; they just want truthful information from agencies that their own taxes go to support. Why is that so hard to understand?
We are not talking "caveat emptor"--we are talking government scam. I just don't get why you can't understand "Swimming in Law School Debt's" point.
Boo Hoo! So a group of law school grads can't find a job and they blame the college they went too? My advice - GROW UP and get your life under control. No one owes you a living. If you can't make it as a lawyer, perhaps another career choice should be considered. This whole generation - me, me, me! This is what we gert for allowing overcoddling parents to spoil their bratty kids.
Remember these words: Life is a bitch, then you die.
right, right, trusted institutions should be allowed, maybe even encouraged, to lie to the public
that's capitalism, or something, right?
timbo, bernie madoff would have loved you! Just prime the pump and then dump. Schools that post their placement rates by area that are faulty should be sued. You are promising a potential reward at the end of the school contract based on fiction and deceit. Its like saying by a ticket from me and I will give you a lottery win of a million dollar. The disclosure is my placement rate is 99% ...ooops I guess zero is the reality. You don't mind do you?
Jolly and Swimming in Debt (are you the same person cause you sound like you are). Are you kiddding me..since when does a degree give you a promise of anything? You 2 need to grow up, grow a pair and get realistic. Idiots like you are what is wrecking this Country- self centered, spoiled a-holes who think they are owed a living cause they slept in a class room for couple years. If the unemployed "college grads" cannot figure out that investing $100,000 or more in tuition does not pay off in long run then they are bigger idiots than I thought. As the saying goes there are "more horses asses than horses". Most unemployed grads should go to McDonald University and major in burger flipping. Perhaps you two geniuses could run the program.
You lie in publc to attract income, you deserve to get sued for misrepresentation. The idea that schools should be left out is ridiculous. Who made that rule up? I mean, you walk into a casino and its states 90% payout but actually they lied! Zero was the amount! whats the differnce? Notta difference. Its like buying the hair tonic that cures baldness on 99% of the populationt that I put in ad and marketed...oops it was zero percent but I want to keep your money. Its silly to allow schools to think they are better than any other flim flam artist. If these guys prove the school can't hold up their claims, its deceptive and they have been injured. You cant just lie any dang time you want to anyone. There are consequences in american law
Timbo, why so personal?
I get it, we differ on whether large institutions should lie to the public. I think they shouldnt, you think they should. That's fine. But there is no need to tell me I'm ruining the country.
Also, I am not Jolly.
Yeah, and I don't like lawyers nor do I like scum suc king doctors. My issue is deceiving people practically out of their life savings and getting away with it. Its wrong. Wheather is bank/mortgage fraud or school fraud or any other type of fraud. If you lie and misrepresent to earn income, your a fraud and should go to jail or pay a hefty fine. Quit lying. Is that so hard!
It's interesting how all of the law schools being sued are in the most liberal cities in the country. As typical in these cities, it's always someone else's fault when something doesn't turn out just right. Taking personal responsibility for one's actions and decisions is unheard of. Give me a break already.
Generally agree with your characterization of "the most liberal cities". San Diego is not especially liberal, however. More conservative like us OCers.
It's not a liberal city issue as much as it is a bottom tier law school issue. The reason they didn't find a job is they went to a crappy law school. Akin Gump just ain't pining for grads from the West Detroit School of Law and Animal Husbandry.
Tronner -- Very true. 80 or 90 years ago medical schools had this problem with a proliferation of private non-university affiliated schools with low standards pumping out doctors. The medical profession cleaned up the situation, eliminating the accreditation of these schools and placing all medical education in university affiliated schools. They thereby controlled the number and educational standards of all doctors.
The situation that faced them at that time long ago now faces the legal profession. Only if they move to eliminate the proliferation of these private non-university affiliated schools and strictly control the number of lawyers being trained and the quality of their education will this problem be solved.
The secret to the success of the medial profession has been this control of their numbers and standardization of their education. The legal profession could learn much from them.
It doesn't matter if one goes to a "for-profit" or a "not-for-profit." There is no work for people getting law degrees. Articles like this are important--if parents understand that those getting graduate degrees, professional degress, and even bachelor's degrees are not getting jobs, those parents will stop placing themselves in crippling debt, and students will stop placing themselves in crippling debt.
There simply are no jobs right now--industry prefers hiring people from overseas who work for less (the even import such people). If one is going to wind up working at McDonald's, one is a lot better off without the massive debt. In fact, if students truly understood how bad things are--they would simply leave the country and get jobs overseas and not go to school. Or, they would be figuring out ways to be entrepreneurs here at home.
Why are you funding public institutions--with your hard-earned tax dollars--that are doing nothing but feeding people lies? Wouldn't that money be better spent in other ways?
By the way, doctors aren't really doing much better than lawyers--I don't know why you think that the medical profession is "in control of their numbers and standardization of their education." There are a lot of doctors with crippling debt who are having trouble finding jobs that will help them pay it off--it really isn't much better for them. Ask one.
Law schools lie. What a surprise. Even a lawyer can't figure this out?
Having a degree does not guarantee you will get a job. You went to school, got a degree and its the schools fault you can't get a job? This is not the fault of the school. When did he do the research regarding the schools placement percentages? Before or after he graduated. I believe the case should be thrown out. Does anyone unemployed that has a degree get to sue the school they attended because they do not have a job?
noone's asking for a guarantee, people are asking that schools do not mislead on placement rates or median salaries.....you think they should mislead?
Should they mislead? No. But should you believe everything told to you by an institution who is trying to get you to attend their university? No. In short, Swimming, I understand your frustration, but at the same time, as a full-grown adult, you are responsible for doing the research necessary to make decisions that affect your life. If you were too lazy to do so and were willing to take the numbers offered by the university as truth, that is your own fault. Next time, try looking into a less biased source for your data.
No, its not the fault of the school unless they lied on their placement rate and cant substantiate. Its a lottery ticket or prize no one wins! I mean, isnt that covered by gambling law? If the machine says a payout of 98%, by god it better pay 98%.
Joker, that 98% payout still means that if you play the game enough times you're still broke. But people still pull handles in Las Vegas. Good luck telling the casino that you started with $100 and want your $98 back when you hit zero.
A casino isnt a nonprofit entity entrusted to do things in the public good to receive such a special status in society.
Good for these kids! They were victims of lies, including thoe the school, recruiters and bank loan officers told them. The truth is the world has changed, and EVERYONE willing to take out a huge student loan can get into law school anymore. The schools don't care,b ecause they need the money and just to fill their seats. Another truth based upon the real world today, less than 50% of today's law school grads get a job within 5 years of graduation--and they are within the top 10% of their class of well over 200+ and went to big name colleges like Harvard, Yale, UMich, Penn, Georgetown, a few other. The rest of the kids susidized the cost of educating those students in their class/school, and are left with the huge dibilitating loans. Most will work at jobs like the interviewed young man or wait tables until social security kicks in; then they will loose their SS benfits to pay off the vipers hounding them for their school loans. Not me, this is not based on personal prejudice or bias. I went to school in the 60s where you worked your way through, paid as you go -- no such thing as student loans back then. Nonetheless, I hate what has happened to law schools who has glutted the marketplace with their promises and lies and what it has done to our next generation of young people.
Waahhh, Waahhhh!
Mommy, the mean man lied to me! Waaahhh, Waahhh!!!
No one is exempt from this economy. Having a degree or not. We met a guy this evening at dinner and he was telling us that he got a degree in Sociology and been looking for years, and he just can't find a decent job that pays the bills. So who is to blame? We all are.
not the same issue
Really a degree in Sociology and he can't figure out why he can't find a job? Brilliant
BWAHAHA...don't ya just love it?...the scumbaggery of lawyers starts even before they start working...I LOVE IT!
There are more lawyers in the United States than in the rest of the world. There is some satisfaction (and poetic justice) in the contemplation of them reduced to cannibalism
Nice lawyers lie all the time why not law schools. going to school and getting a degree is no guarantee for a job period. Don't go to school if you can't afford it. Work go to night school get scholarships. The brightest minds come on really how bright are you when you rack up 100 thousand dollars in debt for a law degree when we have an over abundance of lawyers already.