Sadly, the Grand Canyon AND Coke have to suffer because people have to be pigs.

This decision is utter stupidity; myopic thinking. The problem is that people leave their bottles, not that the park is selling them. People will bring their plastic bottles from outside the park and still leave them.

@dirp - to solve the problem, more people need to follow your rule. Leave it better than you found it. Unfortunately people are selfish pigs.

The park services is denying the visitors the healtiest drink Coke makes, but continues to permit high-fructose drinks which are the cause of many illnesses. Go figure. Aren't the other drinks sold in plastic bottles? What's with the obsession of the left on bottled water? As someone who have worked with water treatment in various industries, I can say with confidence that the water they get out of the tap is the nastiest sh!t you can drink.

Agree! Leave nature better than you found it. Pick up litter left by others and kick the a$$e$ of those you see leave litter. Americans are usually lazy pigs. We Germans are the world champion in recycling and avoiding litter:) Take example from us!

karl-

that's true- we've seen what you all do with your scheiss...

Karl---I've never been to Germany but I've heard from other sources that what you say is true except for "Americans are usually lazy pigs". That offends me and I DON'T LIKE YOU.

mendy07 - When children don't play with toys the right way...you warn them...when they don't listen then you have to treat them like children and take the toy away. Plastic water bottles account for 30% of the total waste in these parks.

Road Warrior-252445 - This just finishes a full ban on plastic bottles in the parks as a whole. And you're wrong about water quality. Almost every bottled water is tap anyway, and most major metropolitan areas have cleaner tap water than bottled. Tap water is subject to far more rigorous testing and cleaning than bottled water. Granted, it's will vary from city to city, but for instance New York City's water is very clean.

Almost every bottled water is tap anyway.

StMiller,

That's like saying the gasoline which goes into your car is nothing but crude oil.

Road Warrior-252445 -

That's a ridiculous analogy. Gasoline is a processed byproduct of crude oil. Water while it can be filtered is not a byproduct of water.

There is no legal requirement for bottled water to be any cleaner or more filtered than tap...there is actually no legal requirement for it to be anything other than water in a bottle. So..where would use as a profit minded owner of a water bottling plant get your water? That's right...the tap. Do you think every bottled water plant sits on top of a mountain spring?!

doyourhomework, America! ... that was the funniest thing I've read all morning. Thanks.

If it weren't for the fact that the human body MUST have water in order to survive, I might pay closer attention to this story. BUT because we do need water, I'd have to say the need for human nourishment outweighs any argument against supplying water, especially in a place as remote as the Grand Canyon, no matter if it is for sale or free to the public we as humans have to have water.

American Girl-724855 - They aren't cutting off your access to water!! They are just saying that you have to bring your own water bottle...i.e. a reusable one. It's actually one of the easier products to transfer from source to container via a tap or even container to container. You know that used to be the norm before disposable water bottles right?

Doesn't the Park Service have anything more improtant to do than to ban the sale of bottled water.

Water is essential in a hot climate. Banning the sale of water doesn't make any sense. Neither does littering. Impliment a big fine for littering and charge a steep deposit, maybe $1, for a bottle deposit, but don't ban the sale of botttled water. That makes no sense.

If "people bringing their plastic " from outside the park then they should be allowed (forced) to pay a simple fine, like say $50 per container. People have to learn to adhere to the law and NOT THEIR OWN PERSONAL PREFERENCES. I want my parks free and safe, if some want to trash them then THEY SHOULD BE BANNED!

when I was a child, Dad has a canvas water bag that hung on the outside of the car as we drove. We always had cold water to drink. Fill the water bag, carry it with you. plastic is quite new on the market, when it comes to the fact we need water to drink. Nothing wrong with going back to the old ways in some circumstances

Gasoline is a processed byproduct of crude oil.

StMiller,

And contaminate-free H2O is a processed byproduct of nano-filtration of surface water. Both are physical separation of a pure liquid from a mixture of liquids, one by adding heat & condensation and the other by high pressure & sub-micron separation. You are stuck in the mindset that water cannot be more pure than conventional filtration. I suggest you check out what the cities of Tampa and San Diego have done to get clean drinking water, using reverse osmosis plants, much cleaner than your tap water which is full of dissolved chemical in the sub-micron range which cannot be removed by conventional filters. All the chemicals are dissolved in the tap water from industry, roads and farms. I can walk you through the filtration steps used in municipal water treatment plants, but what it boils down to is they can only removed "suspended" particles with their filters down to about 5 microns, not the dissolved chemicals. Bottled water processed by reverse osmosis is all I drink. Do yourself a favor and have your NY tap water analyzed in a lab for all dissolved chemicals before believing you are drinking clean water.

Derek - because people have to be pigs

People are not pigs. People can be slobs, but not pigs. Don't insult pigs.

Road Warrior-252445 - Whether or not you filter water via a myriad of processes it is still H20. Gasoline is no longer crude oil by any stretch of the imagination.

Additionally, you are making my exact point that tap water is cleaner than bottled water. "As someone who have worked with water treatment in various industries, I can say with confidence that the water they get out of the tap is the nastiest sh!t you can drink." Now you're saying that tap water like two cities you mention have this great water.

StMiller, what starts as tap water is not what you get in the bottle, the water is filtered or distilled. Unless you are talking about "spring" water exclusively.

It appears that StMiller is a troll. Don't feed the trolls.

Dirp and Derek are 100 percent correct.

I feel bad that it had to come down to this (the ban of bottled water on the Grand Canyon), but let's face it; people are disgusting slobs. And it's not just at our beautiful National Parks, unfortunately. Take a walk downtown in ANY city, or in a mall, and ESPECIALLY at a sports stadium or a fairground. Effing places are minefields littered with garbage, cigarette butts and half-eaten food. To say nothing about the three-hundred plus pound people who are usually the ones trashing them. Gross.

Hopefully more parks will follow the Grand Canyon's lead.

Mike757 - My point is that that is not necessarily true, nor is it legally required unless stated on the bottled and filtering can be no more than what is done with a Brita filter or tap source filter.

mendy07 - you clearly don't know a troll when you see one. Is everyone who disagrees with you a troll? My posts have been neither violently inflammatory or derogatory. Go ahead and click the little exclamation mark and see if the moderators agree with you that I am trolling.

Banning the sale of bottled water will not stop the litter, people will bring their own. Banning it all will stop the litter.

Germany is indeed a model for the world when it comes to recycling. German people even sort recycled glass by the color. Sadly, too few Americans care enough when it comes to recycling. There used to be much more recycling going on when there was a deposit on plastic bottles and cans.

Max^108 - My friend lives in central Japan and they recycle to the nth degree as well. Even the little plastic that comes wrapped around food products. And like you mention about Germany, they have to sort everything into like materials...plus...they have to take it down the street to a neighborhood recycling drop off spot.

you are making my exact point that tap water is cleaner than bottled water.

StMiller,

Tap water is a myriad of chemicals, namely H2O and numerous dissolved chemicals mixed in it from pollution. Ok, like I said, you keep drinking that NYC city tap water for your health. All those dissolved chemcals in the sub-micron range, once it gets into the reservoir, how do supposed that can be removed by conventional cartridge filtration? You know, the crap that flows from farms, roads and industrial plants. You have been avoiding that question.

Road Warrior-252445 - I am not avoiding that question. I am pointing out that it doesn't matter what a city does to its water if it ends up in bottles as "bottled water" anyway. There is no legal requirement for a company that makes bottled water to do any additional filtration. Granted if they claim that its some high tech filtering then they would be on the hook to do that and prove it, but the vast, vast majority of bottled water says and does nothing of the sort.

I actually don't understand if you are pro-bottled water or pro-tap. You made a fine argument that tap water in at least the two cities you named is very clean. I am not rooting for NYC's water in particular, I just used it as an example of water that has routinely tested as clean or clean than many bottled waters.

Also, just to be clear since we are so far off topic...I understand the ban of the plastic bottles in the park system and I think that people should use reusable, preferably metal drinking bottles filled with tap.

StMiller,

Tampa and San Diego ran out of clean drinking water due to population growth. They installed reverse osmosis treatment plants. The point is not all tap water are the same. Since NYC does not have a RO plant, you are most likely drinking polluted water and not being told the truth. There is no way around all the chemicals that are dissolved in the fresh water reservoirs with simple "particle filtration" methods such as multimedia and cartridge filters. It is physically impossible. Cartridge fiters, 1 to 10 microns filtration. Dissolved chemicals, 1 nanometer. That is 1000 times smaller than what a cartridge filter can handle. I'll drink my Aquafina. You keep drinking that great tap water in NYC.

Road Warrior-252445 - Again...I am not fighting for NYC's tap water. I live in Northern California.

Also, if we are getting all techy...RO can not filter out chemicals that have a smaller profile than water molecules hence the reason for the additional layer of carbon filtration. Additionally, RO also removes a large number of healthy minerals, etc.

Aquafina, while RO filtered... is...just like the bottle says...tap water.

RO can not filter out chemicals that have a smaller profile smaller than water molecules hence the reason for the additional layer of carbon filtration.

StMiller,

Now I understand why we are going in circles. You don't know what RO is. It is a membrane filtration system that is made of porous sheetl rolled into a cylinder shape. It is a cross-flow system. As water flows through the cylinder, the water flows through the membrane layers outwards. As it passes through the membrane, dissolved chemicals as well as suspended particles are virtually all removed, 99.9%. Nothing is left but pure H2O. By definition, RO is hyperfiltration which is filtration down to as small as 1 angstrom, the size of a hydrogen molecule which is much smaller than a water molecule. BTW, activated carbon filters are only used for chlorine and odor removal.

Is it REALLY so damned difficult to bring along a canteen or water bottle when you KNOW you are going to be in a hot, dry region?

Oh, right, it's so much more "convenient" to spend money on the bottles AND the water -- when the Park Service provides water FREE OF CHARGE at all those canteen/bottle filling stations.

There is no legal requirement for a company that makes bottled water to do any additional filtration.

I've never seen a bottle of water that doesn't mention the filtration method they use or state that it is distilled. Where are you buying your bottled water from, some guys van down by the river?

I'm always amazed at how unbearably heavy a beverage container becomes once it's empty.

Mike757 - That is the law regarding bottled water. The National Resource Defense Council tracks that sort of thing if you want to look it up. As a matter of fact, like I pointed out before 1/3 of all bottled water brands honestly state they are just tap water. Granted they may filter again, they may not, but why spend 1000's of times the cost of tap water to get a product that is essentially the same. Especially, if you're (not you specifically) are just going to toss the empty bottle in a national park.

Road Warrior - Can you point me to a good read on RO? I'm getting interested in it now. Everything I find agrees with most of what you say except the part about how much it removes. Thanks.

How clean is NYC water? Old style submarines had naught but big lead-acid cells for underwater propulsion. And these cells devoured water, and this water had to be super-pure and devoid of chemicals. Otherwise the life of the cells was shortened. One time while I was riding the Halfbeak, it tied up in the old New York Naval Shipyard. The electricians found to their surprise and delight that hydrant water (available on the pier) was of a quality of pureness that they could fill the battery water tanks right from the city mains. Ordinarily the battery water was double-distilled on board ship.

People, please. You can drink tap water. Really. You can. Just suck it right out of the tap. Yes, I know there are places where the local water tastes funny, but in the vast majority of municipalities the tap water is pure. Tap water must go through more quality control checks than bottled water. Most of the people in the world would conisder it a miracle that you can turn a tap and get water fit to drink any time you wanted it. JUST GET A FRIGGEN BOTTLE AND FILL IT WITH TAP WATER!

That is one nice thing about living in most of America, north of the Rio Grand, most municipalities have REALLY good water. For most of the rest of the world, not so much. In most countries, sewage and rain runoff go directly into streams, lakes, and into the ground water.

In the US, most communities require all waste be treated before it is returned to the eco-system. In most cases, the treated waste water is better than what might have been used in industrial uses. The only exceptions are argricultural, petrochemical and mining.

Give people the benefit of the doubt. Not all the litter comes from people deliberately tossing an empty bottle on the ground.

Lots of litter is generated when garbage cans fill up and the wind blows the bottles out of the can. Lots of litter is generated from people (esp. kids) accidentally dropping or losing a bottle and not realizing it. People throw a plastic bottle in the bed of their pickup, and it blows out once they hit 40 mph. Sure, they probably should know better, but I'm ready to give a guy credit for at least throwing it into the bed of his pickup rather than on the ground.

Yes, there are pigs who deliberately toss litter to the ground. But you'd be surprised at how much litter is generated passively, not actively.

My question is.... are aluminum cans still an option for sale? Because people will just buy cans of soda and then you'll see aluminum cans take the place of plastic bottles.

Saucer -- you need to give Karl a break. Having lived in Germany for two years, and having visited several parks there, it is apparent that by comparison Americans are in fact lazy slobs. I ESPECIALLY like picking up water bottles left in parks claiming how they are "all-natural" and bottled in an environmentally-friendly fashion. Guess that makes it OK for them to be left lying about.

Also, US "bottled water" is often a joke. In Germany (and most of Western Europe), bottled water MUST be labeled with what minerals it contains (as opposed to our idiot labelling telling us that it is fat- and carb-free) and MUST be bottled at the source, not hauled all over the countryside in tankers.

People, please. You can drink tap water. Really. You can

Nothing wrong with tap water in most places in the US. I simply prefer the taste of bottled water. I get 40, 500ml bottles of RO filtered water for $3.98...so to me for the taste benefit I am willing to pay that price. I also recycle my bottles, as do most of the other people I know.

You ever noticed that cops tend to not even care when people toss their cigarette butts right in front of em?

Ruken, not true in California. There's a $1,000 fine for throwing a cigarette butt out of a car window. On the other hand if you're just walking down the street and drop a cigarette butt on the ground, there's no penalty.

Cigarette butts are disgusting as are the people who just drop them where they stand.

All this talk about cigarettes makes me want one...LOL.

What a healthy forum! Look how we can teach each other how to behave; what to drink, where to smoke, etc., etc.

Bela Ghostly (below) "they complained bottles and paper bags were bad for the environment now it's plastic!" Um, hate to tell you, but the bottles "these wacko left green earth freaks" were concerned about WERE/ARE plastic. So this isn't another new issue.

If you're so uneducated about why these things are bad for the earth, perhaps you should pull your head out of the proverbial sand and take a look around, do a little breathing, and then READ UP. If you don't investigate the "earth freaks" reasons for concern, you will naturally not understand.

Apparently, you've been living your life believing your actions have no consequences; it must be nice there in your world. Here on earth, however, we are polluting and killing the planet and not everyone is as okay with it as you. Why? Don't be scared, go ahead and LEARN why...although even a small dose of common sense should tell you.

Look at your political class- fat, arrogant, greedy, callous, and beyond the law. Trickle down economics!

Do you have any idea how dirty cities were in the middle ages? A plague spread by rats wiped out ~50% of the population. Or how dirty cities used to be in the 19th and early 20th century? An alley used to be a place where people dumped their trash and it could pile as high as 3-4 stories.

Yea, I'd say we are doing okay. So sick of people thinking this sort of stuff is a new epidemic.

Reuse them by filling them up with water for your next bike ride. Or even buy Gatorade in bigger containers and fill the quart size ones from the larger before you go riding. The plastic bottles that sports drinks & some juice comes in make great water bottles. Take the labels off, fill them up with water. You can keep some in the fridge for cold water and for keeping a relatively empty fridge cold. You can also keep some out of the fridge for emergency water needs - water line break, hurricane, floods, tornados, etc. Fill part way and freeze for use in coolers.....

Reuse them by filling them up with water for your next bike ride.

I carry reusable water bottles from the bike shop where I bought my bike.

Wouldn't change the idea that I'd have to bring them home first, however. At which time I can just dump it in our recycle bin. I just wish there were more incentives for public recycling. I don't even see places to recycle at the parks and public trails my routes pass through.

So your complaining that they are empty? Since you certainly wernt complaining about carrying them when they were full.... Its good that you take them with you instead of tossing them on the ground. But I really would complain about carrying an extra (what 1/4lb) of plastics around.

Sam:

It isn't the weight, it's more of how big they are, and how they don't fit in anything but my pack. There are other things I need to carry, especially in the cooler weather.

Waaaa ! I have to carry my empty ba ba all the way home. Waaaaaa!!!

Carrying an empty bottle is probably more exercise than you've ever done, Dirp.

When I go camping and hiking, I don't use disposable water bottles, I use reuseable ones. If you can't carry it out empty, don't carry it in full.

You guys are missing Ruken's point and taking him out of context. At least he cares about the Earth!

OK, OK, I take back my Waaa, waaa comments.

My point is, if you don't want to carry it back with you, don't take it out with you.

The only thing you should leave behind when you go out into nature is a footprint (and maybe a few pounds of weight.)

What pisses me off is the lack of recycling ... I don't even see places to recyle at the parks and public trails my routes pass through.

That's probably because that if it's anything there like it is here, the same sort of idiots who never pick up after themselves or recycle ANYTHING think that the recycle bins are absoultely the best place to throw the contents of their car ashtrays and all of their empty McDonald's bags.

Mitchell,

You seem to believe just because the bottled water comes out of the city water supply that it is the same as tap water. DaSanti and Aquafina are both filtered using reverse osmosis, an elaborate membrane filtration process which is operated under 300 psi of pressure. It is the same technology used in the semiconductor industry which requires ultra-pure water that is 100% freed of contaminants. Yes, they get the water from the city water supply as well.

They say that a lot of bottled water is nothing but tap water put in a bottle.

You are right, marketing!!! I have some bottled air for sale. $1/gallon.

Northern,

Do you think the FDA would let Coke and Pepsi get away with lying about the use of reverse osmosis filtration on their bottled water and simply put unfiltered tap water into the bottles? You are making unsubstantiated accusations without proof.

Hey "Einstein" Road Warrior, here's your "sign" proof...

"20/20" took five bottles of national brands of bottled water and a sample of tap water from a drinking fountain in the middle of New York City and sent them to microbiologist Aaron Margolin of the University of New Hampshire to test for bacteria that can make you sick, like e. coli.

"There was actually no difference between the New York City tap water and the bottled waters that we evaluated," he said.

Many scientists have run tests like that and have consistently found that tap water is as good for you as bottled waters that cost 500 times more.

#.TzFyBcjnvSg

Now STFU! Actually, start reading the fine print on the label. You'll find some that directly state "obtained from the .... Municipal Water System."

IMO, this is a great idea, but you have to target the other plastic products as well.

rogerstv,

LOL.....tested for bacteria? Let me educate you, brainiac. The typical size of a bacterium is 1 micron. That is the lower end of the filtration range of cartridge filters you buy at Home Depot. That is the best a typical city water treatment plant can do. Dissolved chemicals are in the 1 nanometer range. A nanometer is 1,000 times smaller than a micron. Oh yeah, the NYC tap water is freed of bacteria, but you are being poisoned slowly with dissolved chemicals from farm runoff, roads and industrial blowdown. Keep drinking the NYC tap water for your health. LOL

This isn't going to solve the litter problem at Grand Canyon as people will still bring in plastic water (and Coke) bottles from outside. The careless among them will continue to trash the landscape. Those of us who properly dispose of these things will continue to do so.

Will it possibly reduce the amount of plastic bottle litter? Maybe. But it is also going to reduce revenue to park concessionaires.

Don't get me wrong. I seldom buy bottled water and if I do I use that darned bottle over and over; continually filling it from the tap. I'm not so much green as I am thrifty (some would say cheap). I just see the real solution to the Grand Canyon's litter problem being personal responsibility. Don't be afraid to confront someone tossing a bottle away. Just nicely point out the existence of a nearby trash receptacle. I was in Grand Canyon a few months back and there are plenty of trash receptacles - including those specifically for recyclables.

Laws dont fix laziness.

No john-3403713, laws don't fix laziness but the funds from tickets for littering can pay for someone to pick up after the swine.

I totally agree. We do need tougher litter laws, especially against throwing cigarette butts on the ground.

I agree- thousand dollar fine every time for blatant littering. pisses me off to see a "somewhat educated" person throwing a bag of mcd's or t bell trash on the ground, usually within 50 feet of a garbage can.

people always bitch about subway service, yet littering there has a huge impact. During warm weather, it sparks track fires, during wet weather, it helps promote flooding.

people always bitch about subway service, yet littering there has a huge impact. During warm weather, it sparks track fires, during wet weather, it helps promote flooding.

The MTA and MBTA, for two examples, can barely take care of the trash that actually ends up in the proper receptacles in their underground systems.

M, it's not the grown adults, it's the kids of people like Teen Mom 2 and Teen Dad, and the parents of these kids are just too lazy to parent. But, I bet they bought souveniers!

Tell that to the adults that toss the cigarettes all over the entrance to my building.

No you don't. Just walk up to one of those big, ol' geysers, lean foreward, open your mouth real wide, and wait a bit.

That is the smartest idea in the history of mankind! FREE WATER!!!!!!!!!!! :P

You see it every where. People will throw trash on the ground or sidewalk when there's a trash receptacle right near them. I've seen motorist pull over the the curb, open their doors, and shove trash from their car into the street. People will walk by our house and leave have filled cups and beverage cans on top of our fence. On a side note, dog owners who we don't know will pick up their dog's poop from the sidewalk, walk into our driveway, and drop it into our trash barrels. That's good......I guess.....

• It's Brilliant - the Shift is Happening!

Thanks for the "heads up". Hopefully my aim will be good.

You do bring up another issue. That AVGAS you use have lead in it ? Wait till the tree lickers figure that one out and try to pull a California on you and ban your fuel. Those goggles will look good while you are on foot. (Disregard comment if you are in an ultralight or other unleaded fueled heaver than air vehicle, heheheeh). If you are in a classic biplane of some kind, your rock !

What fantasy world are you from? Forget it - I don't wanna live there anyway.