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Subscribe to RSSJosh Powell took the lives of his two sons in a house fire. Powell was a 'person of interest' in his wife's 2009 disappearance. NBC's Miguel Almaguer reports.
Josh Powell’s taking of his own life and that of his two boys is rare and there is little data on what is known as "filicide-suicide," but psychiatrists say they’ve identified some reasons why -- such as spousal revenge, being acutely psychotic or altruism.
Powell died along with his boys Charles, 7, and Braden, 5, on Sunday, days after he was ordered to undergo a psycho-sexual evaluation as part of a bid to regain custody of his children from his in-laws. Authorities say he set his home on fire moments after the boys were brought to the house for a supervised visit by a social worker – who he did not let inside.
Of the types of filicide (where a parent kills a child) that researchers have identified -- spouse revenge; altruism (where a parent believes that the child will be better off dead); the parent is psychotic and there’s no rational motive -- an expert says he believes the Powell case could be one of revenge.
The sons of missing mom Susan Powell suffered neck and head injuries at the hands of their father, Josh Powell, before dying in the house he set on fire. NBC's Miguel Almaguer reports.
"The person who loses the custody fight is so upset that they feel, you know, ‘If I can’t have the children, you’re not going to get them either,’ and kills the children ... This comes closest to that category even though you don’t have an actual spouse, you’ve got the parents of the spouse," said Phillip Resnick, professor of psychiatry and director of the division of forensic psychiatry for Case Western Reserve University’s School of Medicine.
Powell temporarily lost custody of his children last September after authorities charged his father Steve with voyeurism and possession of child pornography. Powell, who had been living with his boys at his father’s home, was cleared by Child Protective Services in November and believed at last week’s hearing he would regain custody.
The judge’s order of an evaluation last Wednesday came as a "total shock" to him, news reports cited his lawyer, Jeffrey Bassett, as saying.
ABC News obtained what it says was a voicemail Powell left for his family members. In the recording played Tuesday on "Good Morning America," Powell said he was calling to say goodbye and apologize.
Theresa Vanderhoff lights a candle next to photos of Susan Cox Powell and her sons Braden and Charles during a candlelight vigil at McKinley Park in Tacoma, Wash., on Monday.
"Hello, this is Josh. And I’m calling to say goodbye," a shaking voice on the voicemail said. "I am not able to live without my sons, and I'm not able to go on anymore. I'm sorry to everyone I've hurt. Goodbye."
"In my experience, the spouse revenge killing is done when the final custody is awarded to the other parent so this would be a little atypical in that respect, but he may just have had a sense that he wasn’t going to prevail here," said Resnick, who has evaluated mothers who have killed their children -- such as Andrea Yates and Susan Smith -- and knew of the Powell case through media reports.
Some 350 to 400 parents kill their children a year in the U.S. – but not themselves -- and the perpetrators are about equally split between mothers and fathers. The number of cases where a parent takes their own life and that of their children is believed to be smaller, Resnick said, though adding that he hadn’t seen a specific figure on that and noting there wasn’t uniform reporting on such cases.
One of the problems is a lack of a centralized database for reporting these kinds of deaths, so researchers would essentially then have to sift through records at every county coroner’s office.
Even then, the motive might not be clear without a perpetrator to interview, said Susan Hatters-Friedman, associate professor of psychiatry and pediatrics at Case Western who co-authored a study of a county in Ohio reviewing such cases.
"It’s really something that been understudied," she said. "It can be difficult to study because of … what data is available."
She also noted that though people often typically thought of moms with post-partum depression killing their babies, she said that older children were also victims in filicide-suicide cases.
Police: Powell used hatchet on sons
The study, which Resnick and others also co-authored, identified 30 filicide-suicide cases by reviewing coroners’ cases in Cuyahoga County from 1958-2002. Twenty of the perpetrators were fathers. In more than 75 percent of the cases, the perpetrator had evidence of mental illness, while only a little more than half of that – 43 percent – had used mental health services.
Though the vast majority who committed such crimes would be either depressed or psychotic, "not everyone who does this is … out of touch with reality," Resnick said, noting that Powell "may have just been very angry and frustrated."
Some warning signs can be any severely depressed parent, who should be taken for psychiatric help and asked about what plans they would have for their children if they do take their own life, Resnick said.
Recent cases of a father killing himself and his children, include:
- Jan. 31: A California man allegedly shot his 9-month-old son before turning the gun on himself on a mountain road in California, following a battle over visitation with his ex-girlfriend who had gone to a judge ten days before seeking a restraining order that would mandate supervised visits. At that hearing, she had submitted an email in which he had allegedly described killing himself and his son, according to the Hi-Desert Star.
- Jan. 28: A man in Virginia and his twin 3-year-old daughters were found dead in their home in what authorities said was a murder-suicide. The girls had cuts to their necks and the father had hooked up a van to the home in order for exhaust fumes to go inside. A close family friend said there were no "red flags," but the couple was going through a divorce and custody issues, WTVR.com reported.
- Oct. 18: Authorities find the bodies of a family of four in their New York home. Police say the father shot his two children, bludgeoned his wife to death with a piece of furniture and then killed himself. The couple was in the midst of a divorce, police told The Associated Press.
Men were often more likely to take the lives of everyone in the family, rather than mothers, who tended to kill the children and themselves, said Resnick.
This was partly because "fathers tend to have a proprietary sense of ownership of the whole family," he said, noting that if a man lost his job, he could envision all of them being forced out on the street and then "decide to wipe out the whole family" to avoid that.
Fathers were also "more likely to succeed at suicide" than women, Resnick added, because they "use methods like shooting and hanging, and women use methods like overdosing, which are less often successful. So men use more violent, more lethal methods, and they die more often."
Authorities in Washington state said Monday that they believe Powell had planned the fire. They recovered two cans of gasoline inside Powell’s rented home, and gasoline was spread throughout the house and used as an accelerant in the huge blaze.
"We believe he planned this event out and had taken certain steps," Pierce County sheriff's spokesman Sgt. Ed Troyer said during a press conference in Graham, Wash.
Kirk Graves, the husband of Powell’s estranged sister, Jennifer, confirmed to TODAY on Monday that Charles was beginning to talk about his memories of the day his mother disappeared. Powell, who denied having any role in his wife’s disappearance, claimed he had taken the boys on a midnight excursion in freezing temperatures when Susan vanished from their home.
However, Charles recently shared that he recalled seeing his mom in the trunk of the car, lawyer Steve Downing, who represented Susan Powell's parents in the custody fight, told The Associated Press.
"I’m convinced that Josh was going to do something like this and there’s absolutely nothing anybody could have done to stop him," said Graves, 39, of West Jordan, Utah.
Hatters-Friedman said hindsight, however, could be deceptive.
"I think it’s easy to look back and say something was a ‘cry for help’ even though, you know, at the time it didn’t seem like it," she said.
More content from msnbc.com and NBC News
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What a sick, sick man.
God help her parents deal with the loss of their family members.
Perhaps we dont get all the pieces of the puzzle, but when the sister of Josh Powell (via her husband) says the children were starting to talk about mom in the trunk...and the grandparents of susan said they kids said the same thing...and a daycare/school teacher said the kid drew a picture of 3 people (dad and the two boys) and the kid says "moms in the trunk"...
and then this guy kills himself and his two kids (the two kids who could fully explain that mom was inthe trunk)...
and this psycho-analyst thinks REVENGE is the motive?
*FACE PALM OF THE CENTURY
Perhaps, I don't know...he did this because he knew he was about to be busted for what he had done, was his motive????
naw, too logical...way too logical.
Yeah this is was just what I posted in the other thread. No one could have his kids. It's why I killed susan too
Jessica u seem to have just come out of mars. How difficult is it to plant a fake story in a kids head, especially a 2 year old. Try showing something to a 2 year old (like what aunt martha made for thanksgiving) and ask him if he remembers it 2 years later, even for a 3 or 4 year old, that is nearly impossible. The kid saying the same story to many people is nothing special. he could tell the same thing to 100 people. But did someone ask them "who told u that" ? If u ask repeatedly that question, the kid will either tell the truth or invent something assuming that someone must have for sure said something. I maybe wrong, but i am guessing it's the younger kid who came up with the story, because the younger they are, the easier it is to manipulate their mind (in my book child mental abuse!), and my suspicion will fall 100% on the grandparents or the people around them in addition to social workers. I have never heard of a kid as young as that recalling something of no interest to them more than 2 years later.
@Fabian from Canada
It seems as though you feel the children were coached into making statements by their grandparents. Children overhear conversations and mimic what they hear.....It is possible that their 'story' is real. Remember, they spent a good amount of time with their father and HIS parents. As for a child recalling "something of no interest"...children's worlds revolve around their parents. This was their mother, not the family pet or a favorite toy.
Either way, these children will never say another word again. Their only remaining parent hacked at them with an axe and set the house on fire. Not exactly the actions of a mentally stable and loving father.
Fabian, your lack of knowledge about and understanding of young children boggles the mind.
You can be certain that what happened to their mother is of very much interest to them. Comparing the mother-child relationship to Thanksgiving dinner is ludicrous. . . and sick as well.
So, what? Did your kids recall and repeat things about you? Perhaps you, too, had plenty to hide.
I just hope when this man opened his eyes that he found himself burning in hell in a lake of fire.
The children were 2 and 4 at the time Mom disappeared.
They were extensively questions by detectives who had become their 'friends'.
The children didn't suddenly have real memories of their Mom in a trunk, uncovered 'finally' years later - what they were having were false memories - being given to them by the inexpert questioning of the grandparents. Inexpert questioning by investigators - causes false memory in children. We went through this episode years ago where detectives were doing it - causing children to remember - and I mean really come to believe, that they were molested by entirely innocent daycare operators - finally that practice was put to an end - detectives no longer do it, they are trained. But there was nothing stopping grandparents from doing it here.
I'm not saying Josh was innocent, but I will say - this was a person never charged with a crime - so the assumption he was innocent.
Imagine yourself in Josh's shoes - he's being harassed day and night by people who have already convicted him. He's lost his wife already, and now the government - the people he expected to protect his family, are now trying to destroy it.
They are engaging in a smear campaign - no jury, no judge, no conviction, no charges - and the public thinks he's guilty.
Now they take his kids from him too. On top of that, the new caretakers are using psychological warfare known as 'alienation of affection' - raise the children believing they 'remembered' (at age 2) Dad putting Mom in a trunk.
Josh killing himself and the kids, prove that the purposeful plan to destabilize the man worked.
I think Josh should have killed himself only, and let the grandparents win their sick fight.
But - what was done here was wrong - plain wrong. And the results - tragic.
Fabian......"recalling something of no interest to them". Who's from Mars? Taken out in the middle of the night in a blizzard in December in Northern Utah and put in a freezing tent while daddy puts mommy in the trunk of your car........oh, and mommy disappears forever....... Call me crazy, but I think that is probably something of interest to a child. It's sounds like you think maybe this guy wasn't guilty of hurting the mother. Is that based on the knowledge that he chopped his young sons with a hatchet and then suffocated them and burned them? Maybe you're from Uranus.
We will continue to see stories like this until our government fixes the broken custody system and quit demonizing fathers.
Anybody that could take a hatchet to their own kids had to be completely out of their mind. It is hard to fathom how such extreme insanity could go undetected unless it wasn't being looked for. How many people have to die before the threat from people like him (including the ones who kill their wives and girl friends after some nasty episode) is taken seriously. Anyone who is that unstable is going to tip their hand under the right circumstances and the state has a duty to the innocent to sound out the potentially murderous. Some innocent people might be subjected to some rather unpleasant circumstances as a result; like in war, freedom has a price. How many draftees names are on that wall? If that is justice, so is the unpleasantness of attempting draw out a psychopath.
Imagine taking your kids age 2 and 4 on a spur of the moment midnight camping trip in freezing temperatures on the night your wife disappears.
You can't imagine doing that can you?
My son is 12 and a scout and I wouldn't conceive taking him camping at midnight in cold weather.
His story was the worst I've ever heard. I would be more likely to believe they were abducted by aliens.
The man was a nut. We know he killed his kids and most likely killed his wife.
Robert - They're just as likely to be real memories as false ones. Going through something so traumatic causes memories to be repressed. And repressed memories can and do come through, sometimes years later. There's no rhyme or reason to it, but it happens. There have actually been a lot of studies on it recently with children who were sexually abused in childhood.
Robert, u are so correct. This was a smear campaign from the beginning. We saw it working the other way in the OJ trial, but this time defence smear from the beginning rescued him. Now we have this guy who was convicted unofficially 24 hours after his wife disappeared.
@Jessica. At 2 years of age, kids care more about fun stuff and toys, activities. Sure, moms are important, but asking a 2 year old 2 years later to remember a cold night is a farce. And no, the difference between using a sharp object on his kids to get a quicker less painful death of no suffering (painful and horrible, just the sound of that- rest in peace sweet little ones) and the event of his wife's death has a 2 year gap. Within that time, he was demonized and cornered in every way- with no evidence against him. That can turn an otherwise normal guy into an insane lunatic, which he did become. He had lost everything and very wrongfully. It's ok in a free society to harress people and hurt them just because u suspect and have no evidence ? that's a laughter. BTW, my kids love -40 deg weather for skating on ice. I am sure those boys were not traumatized by the cold, as u may believe.
Fabian, and others- The oldest boy was almost 5 when this happened, and this was the last time he saw his mother. I recall when it happened him saying something about mommy being at the mine, but Josh would not let the boys be interviewed. I can absolutely believe that the older boy especially would have memories of when his mom disappeared- he has been through a lot, but some things stick with you.
Selmers, how is that going to help? Here you have a guy whose father may be a child molester, who may have killed his wife and you think we're going to see more of these killings if the law doesn't change? I'm sorry but anyone, man or woman, who thinks their kids or their spouces are their property and who are willing to KILL them when things go bad doesn't deserve any custody. Anyone who isn't willing to work around the problems, even if it takes years, rather than killing their kids in a fit of rage is not parent material.
Selmer--are you trying to say daddy should have had the kids all along because the courts are biased against men in custody situations? Shame on you. In this case, mommy was obviously the deserving custodial parent. Daddy was a nut job.
This case is waaaay too complex for some MD psychiatrist to diagnose remotely.
1) There were issues with the man's on perceived guilt and his reaction to it (which was to flee to another state.) Suicide is the ultimate flight and filicide can just be "run on ahead and I'll catch up with you" with only the addition of the right religious beliefs.
2) The man's father also had complicated issues. He was caught with kiddie porn and is currently in jail for it. But he also had nude photos of the daughter-in-law taken without her knowledge and there were some indications that the man was involved in his father's activities, at least as far as taping his then wife. If he had been convicted of sex crimes he would never have seen his kids again because he would go under the jail and come out a permanent sex crimes convict.
3) The police case was still active and was apparently getting closer, especially with the kids becoming more verbal. While their memories probably wouldn't have met legal standards, it had to feel like the authorities were closing in.
I really hate it when MD psychiatrists whose primary psychological training is centered on medicating mental illness with no adjunct treatments break their canon of ethics and pronounce far-fetched remote diagnoses for people of whom they have zero first-hand knowledge.
The situation is bad enough without the publicity hounds and the dumbass reporters trying to get their ham hands into the tragedy.
@FabianfromCanada and Robert...
Reportedly the younger child drew a picture while attending a pre-school camp that showed three people in a vehicle, and when asked who they were by the adult who was supervising the preschoolers, he said it was himself, his brother Charlie, and his dad...and mommy was in the trunk. Reportedly this happened months after his mom disappeared, so how do you blame that on "coaching" by the grandparents? Reportedly the older brother has also stated this same fact.
Many children can remember events that took place when they were quite young. I have many clear memories from when I was four years old...and even before that. Particularly frightening or "very different than normal" situations are even more likely to be remembered. I can say this from experience...when I was between two and three years old, my dad collapsed in the bathroom. I was knocking on the door and calling for daddy, and then forced the door open (his feet were somewhat in the way of the door opening) and I found him unconscious on the floor. There was some blood (bleeding ulcer was the problem)...I called for and got my mom who called for help...an ambulance came and took him out on a stretcher. I remember it all. I will agree that it can be very hard for very young children to verbalize what they remember, particularly when it is in regards to something that they do not understand or do not have the vocabulary yet to fully explain. Example...I was asking my mom why they took daddy out on a "toboggan", as that is the only thing I knew of to describe what the stretcher looked like to me at two/three years old. I can tell you, no one told me this scenario and put it in my head...ever. I actually told my mom about it many years later, as an adult, and she could not believe I remembered all of those details, due to my young age. She had even forgotten about me asking about the toboggan, and got to finally get a chuckle about that, as it was anything but funny for her at the time it happened. This is true, and I could relate many other memories from my very young years, but I won't bore you further.
@ Robert and Fabian and all other proponents of 'a smear campaign' conspiracy theory against Josh Powell...when they find Susan Powell living it up down in Rio with some young boytoy stud, I will no longer think of you all as morons, and I will apologize to you all. Until then....don't hold your breath! Occam's razor applies here.
Also, concerning the question of why Powell murdered his sons? In my opinion, it was due to Spite and Revenge...revenge against not only the grandparents and others who loved the boys, but also revenge directed at his sons themselves, as evidenced by the extreme violence and over-kill techniques (violently hacking them up with a hatchet when he knows they will die in the fire/explosion). Horrifying to know the little boys saw their father attacking their brother with a hatchet and themselves as they experienced the terror of the fire, as well. It is all too much hate/evil to bear even thinking about, however hopefully experts will learn from this case in a way that helps protect other children from similar deaths in the future. The monster was very controlling and would not accept loosing control over those he dominated. That is why he killed his wife in my opinion. I believe he was enraged at his sons for loving their grandparents whom he despised, and beginning to be happily independent as well as talking about the night their mother disappeared, as he likely had ordered them not to, and he killed them with as much violence and horror to them as he could. A very despicable man.
Fabian, you grossly underestimate a child's memory. My oldest daughter is 6 years old and, on a regular basis, recalls in vivid and accurate detail random experiences from several years back when she was as young as 2 years old. She has, for her entire life, had the most amazing memory, regardless of her age. Kids remember what they deem to be important to them. What constitutes something worthy of remembering differs from one child to the next, but kids aren't nearly as patently forgetful as you make them out to be. Resilient, yes. Forgetful, no.
Attempting to paint the father in this situation as anything other than a monster is an atrocity. Making him out to be some sort of victim is even worse. Let's assume for a moment that he didn't kill his wife and was the target of a massive smear campaign as you insinuate - there is still absolutely no conceivable reason that would justify the fact that he hacked at his kids' heads and necks with a hatchet and then set them on fire. ABSOLUTELY NONE.
Assuming that this man was innocent (which is an awfully big assumption), I can understand how being demonized takes it's toll. That would explain why he took his OWN life. There is simply no excuse for him killing his kids at the same time. That act shows that he's selfish and hateful. He wanted to inflict still more pain on his in-laws. Far too many men still view women and children as property. When their "property" is taken, they want revenge on whoever they perceive as taking it. Men like this are a menace to society.
This article portrays poor Josh Powell as a victim of the court system, depressed over not being able to regain custody of his sons. Oh, boo-hoo. Josh Powell is better portrayed as a serial killer, who killed his wife then his children in a cold premeditated way. This was not a crime of revenge or depression, but a crime of depravity.
His motives were simple. Like I said above...Occam's Razor...the simplest explanation is most often THE explanation.
First, he obviously killed his wife. The 'camping trip' in the middle of a midnight freezing snowstorm was when he got rid of the body. Now, the kids were beginning to recount "Mommy is in the trunk". I'm pretty sure his thought process ran something like this..."How can the kids have an 'accident' without me looking any more suspicious than I already do? How can I possibly get away with 'shutting them up'? I can't, everyone will know what I did for sure then...the jig is up. Well, I'm going to take those little b@stards with me for opening their mouths. That will also stab Susan's parents in the heart as well. Great. But how can I do it?" Well, we know HOW he did it, don't we?
You really have to take this talk about the kids beginning to talk with a grain of salt. Unless the questioning is done by a professional it is very easy to get kids to say what they think you want to hear. I am sure many people were planting thoughts and ideas in their heads, like the grandparents. It's more likely he didn't think he was going to pass the mental exam he was ordered to take and knew he wouldn't get the boys back. on top of that any lawyer worth .50cent could have easily discredited any testimony from the kids after they had been living with the grandparents. If he was in fact also a child molester (he apparently didn't think he could pass the eval) it might explain why he suddenly killed is wife if she had caught him in the act with one of the boys.
And it was so obvious that the police hadn't arrested nor the DA charged him.
I'm sure he is in heaven worrying about the public's perception of him.
Why can't we just say "Self Centered Killer" now is that so difficult??
@ the thinker; please think about what you think. Do you realize how impossible and stupid it would be for the police to arrest him when they can't find Susan's body. All the defense lawyer has to say is "how do we know she's really dead?" "Because she's missing...left her husband, and her kids, and completely disappeared." "But how do you KNOW she's really dead?" Of course they're not going to waste their time and our money trying to get a conviction without a body (although it HAS been done before, it takes a long time to put it together).
Like I said, AFTER they find her living it up in Rio with some Latin hunk, THEN I'll apologize for thinking you conspiracy theorists are idiots. But until then...don't hold your breath.
It is an immense tragedy. Take comfort in knowing the children are with God now.
Having been through a bitter and nasty divorce, where the ex was only thinking about the treasures of child-support in her custody battle, I can understand the man's irrationality.
The courts are indeed greatly biased against men in nearly all aspects. He had no chance. Even I, fighting bitterly for three years with expert testimony after expert testimony backing me up still did not win.
Driving a man to the point to where he has no reason to live makes him a very free man to do anything he wants without consequence, as he can simply take his own life once the action is done. Yet many women wish to push their ex to this very dangerous point during a divorce anyways. And in this case, the consequences were extreme.
If that was the case of this woman, driving the man to this point, we can all consider long and hard about how she too is responsible for what took place.
May he burn in hell for eternity.
What revenge...he already killed his wife...If you are under suspicion for murder, your children should be taken away...I read he closed the door on the social worker that brought the children to the house and locked it...doesn't that require a immediate response to call the Police
@Colorado...
WHAT??? The mother of the murdered children has been missing since 2009...most of us know she is deceased at the hands of her husband. And she is responsible for "what took place"...ie: the violent murder of her sons by being butchered with a hatchet and set on fire...how??? By his final action, this "father" showed how in his mind, people...including his own sons, were only objects to be owned and manipulated for his own selfish agenda.
And for some men, it is all about money and/or revenge...regardless of what is best for their children, they will fight for custody for the single purpose of keeping their ex from receiving child support. Sounds like there must have been more involved in your situation than what you mention, as most courts today strive to achieve a joint custody arrangement, as long as that is in keeping with the safety and best interests of the children.
He had supervised visits...call the police
rather than sick i believe the man was tormented to the point of violence, the torment led him to violence.
mother theresa, ANYONE, could be tormented to the point of murder. believe me, i know!!
and please don't ask how or why i know. just take my word for it.
and unfortunately, this man was similarly pushed beyond his limits.
it happens. all to often.
i feel sorrow for all involved, including the man involved. perhaps him most of all.
Not hard at all. Doesn't any one remember the false daycare abuse cases from the early 90? Totally innocent people went to prison based on absurd, impossible stories that little children had been coached into repeating. How many of you can remember anything that happened when you were two? I doubt it's even possible. I think the kids were definitely being mentally abused by the grandparents and the rest of the extended family, apparently on both sdies. It just makes the story all the more tragic IMHO.
Really? You must have some information you were withholding from the police and the district attorney, because THEY didn't think they had enough evidence to make an arrest. Doesn't that make you folks responsible for what happened? /sarcasm
Of course you don't know what happened to her.
Probably because psychotic episodes come and go, even in the case of many schizophrenics. In between episodes they may appear normal. Stress can definitely bring on an episode. He seemed to be especially disturbed at the prospect of a psychiatric evaluation. What does that tell you?
Exactly, Ed. He was wearing a "mask of sanity" but he was terrified of what the psychiatric experts would find. It isn't true that mentally ill people don't know they are mentally ill. Most do. I have a son with a psychotic disorder. He was reading some fairly sophisticated books on schizophrenia by the time he was 13.
There was a somewhat similar tragedy in my family except that BOTH parents were involved in the murder-suicide pact, which is rarer than rare. My aunt was pretty flaky, but if you had met my uncle you would have found him to be highly intelligent, perfectly stable, and a loving father. As far as anyone knew, neither parent had any rational motive whatsoever. As long as people don't talk about their delusions, nobody knows they have them.
Fabian - ok, let's say they were planted memories. There were plenty of other reasons why Josh Powell was a suspect and why authorities and Susan Cox Powell's family feared for the boys' lives. If he was afraid of going down for his wife's murder over "false memories" - well, res ipsa loquitor.
It doesn't matter if he was bullied, it doesn't matter if he was flat-out framed - if you can't live without your kids, then don't. He was either purely evil or severely mentally deranged, and CPS and the Cox family were justified in keeping his children away from him.
We can no longer psychoanalyze this creep.
It's like beating your head against the wall, trying to figure out why he chopped his sons up, killing them first, then blowing himself, and the boys up in the house. That's the story. All Americans are shocked at the final act.
He was totally crazy. What can we learn from this story?---most likely looking for signs of mal behavior before, like when Josh Powell took all the kids toys, and books to the Goodwill way before it happened. The e-mails sent out--
He should have been in jail. It was the Court's decision to give a Prime Suspect of Susan Powell's disappearance Visitation Rights. The Grandparents had to follow the Law by letting them go unwantingly to the house---the kids did not want to go. Something happened in the last couple of visits with their father.
My deepest condolences to the Maternal Grandparents. How will they ever live through the future years?
The FIL is in jail. He should rot there, or get the Death Penalty, with immediate death demanded by the Courts, but of course, the taxpayers will be paying for another personality disordered person to live, who also committed sexual crimes..
Right Oom and that explains why the guy murdered his kids. I'm sorry but anyone who thinks to murder their kids for any reason does NOT think of them as fellow, equal humans they see them as property. And colorado up there managed to give credence to this theory without even realizing it.
@Hawaii2...
In my opinion, this was an act of revenge against his kids that preceded his revengeful, violent murder of them. If you love your kids and have the psychotic delusion that they would be better off dead, you don't give away the only items you have that are "owned by them" and that bring them happiness (playing with their toys and books). I am thinking that he did this in a fit of vengeful rage, and it is sad that authorities apparently did not know about this action (?) as, in my opinion, it was a clear warning sign that he wanted to cause the boys pain (emotional pain in giving away their toys/books...at that moment he was feeding his own hatred toward his children).
steel toed boot - There have been many convictions for murder without having produced a body.
oom - How did you arrive at the assertion that he was terrified at what the psychiatric experts would find? He was only required to be evaluated if he wanted to get his kids back. One could also assert that he was frustrated with the system of "good old boys" (cops/lawyers/judges) using one excuse after another to try and force him to talk to them. If they found porn on the dad's computer, why not tell Josh he had to move out of dad's house OR lose custody? If they found pron on dad's computer, why does that mean Josh was also a voyeur or looked at child porn? I'm sure there are plenty of people that aren't aware of what their parents have looked at on the computers. I'm equally sure there are many couples that are unaware of what their partners look at on the computers. For example, there are guys out there who are not the least interested in looking at an oprah website any more than the wife wants to look at car parts websites.
And we need a psycho doctor to put a name to all these disorders, how about just plain nuts!!
or stupid
My vote goes to evil
I DONT know about the children recalling something from 2 years prior? kids that young dont often have a memory span that long...Im not certain they would remember something like that unless it was traumatic enough, mommy being in the trunk wouldnt be enough I would think, because if they wqere told she is sleeping there could be no indication something was wrong. if mommy was bloody in the trunk that might be memorable for them but I too am not inclined to buy a child suddenly remembering what happened 2 years ago.
I don't have to be a psychologist to recognize a clear case of someone carrying out the "Samson option" (look it up).
If something is very different and scarey, it can be remembered from very early. I was about ten when I told my Mom that I remembered being carried out to the car in a blanket, and seeing the lights in the sky at night and wondered what they were. I also remembered being in a crib where the crib railings were above my head and I looked out into the hall and saw these really white people. My Mom was shocked. The only time these events happened was when I was put in the hospital when I was 9 MONTHS old!
Really white people? Catholic hospital statues. So something scarey or traumatic at two years old can certainly be remembered. Not understood, but remembered.
Just what we need - some person who isn't sure if they or the patient should be sitting on the couch trying to come up with a disorder to label Josh. It is always amazing how good the shrinks are at "Monday morning quarterbacking". He had "this" disorder and "that" characteristics and "those" tendencies.
Many scientists who study memory believe those early preschool memories are not lost, just stored in ways that are harder for us to access in later in life because our thinking processes change once we become verbal. If they are right, that means that those memories can still surface in the right circumstances. I know I have a few strong memories that had to have taken place before age 3, a couple of them had to be about age 2 or shortly before. And only one of those memories was traumatic.
My father lost his mother to illness at age 4, and he definitely had a few memories of her, as well as of his grandmother who died when he was 3. In my father's case, it probably helped that he continued to live in the same home, and I'm sure his father (my grandfather) encouraged him to remember them, although he definitely had a few memories that were unique to him, not shared by his siblings or father.
So I believe these little boys could have had memories surface with the right stimulation, which easily could have been as simple as being asked by a nursury school teacher to draw a picture of their family. A visual stimulation such as drawing a picture might be enough to connect to a preverbal memory.
What a terrible choice of words in the headline for this article. " Revenge" as if someone had done something to this creep that he needed to get even for.
What you don't seem to get is that in HIS mind that's exactly what it was. He was taking revenge on the Judge, the In-laws and whoever else he saw as "against" him. That's what made him a sick man.
The only "revenge" this evil creature took was on his children--with an AX! This monster murdered his children. He couldn't justify any of his actions, so he beat his babies in the head with an AX! Who knows, maybe he chopped off their heads? The arm-chair quarterbacking on this forum is sickening. This filthy, despicable monster murdered these innocent children. There is no second guessing, finger pointing, blame gaming. He DID it. He murdered them. He blew them up. The only thing this piece of filth did right was kill himself, too. Sadly, he just didn't do himself in first, and be done with it. No, he had to make sure he was owner, lord, master, and slayer of two innocents (and probably their mother). It wasn't about "revenge;" It wasn't about "sickness;" it was about control and power. Now, the only thing left to do is find the body of the mother, and we can only guess where he put it.
"Revenge" on the children? Revenge is taking retribution for wrong(s) against the person(s) that committed the wrong(s). What was it that the children did that needed to be "righted"?
Not revenge, just murdering the witnesses to his original crime.
Agree, hope though that if this serves anything, all of the people who are ignorant about the details will ALSO join in none of these officials being re-elected.
The mother was dead, he felt the maternal grandparents were abusive, and in the father's sick mind, the kids would be better off dead. The fact that he shoved the caseworker away shows that he didn't want to kill yet more people. That suggests some sort of conscience. As sick as it sounds, parents who kill themselves very often truly believe their kids would be better off dead then end up god knows where, perhaps passed from one foster familiy to another. That's certainly how it was with my uncle and aunt. There was nobody they could have been getting revenge on.
The guy kills his wife for whatever imagined transgression. Hides his crime and calmly deflects blame.
The guy kills his kids for whatever imagined transgression. Blows himself up and deflects blame.
Psychopath? Evil? There probably is a lengthy list of criminal or psycho-pathologies available for his description.
Revenge seems not only understated, it appears to validate his narcissistic view of this world. Can we stop that?
{The grandparents perspective is also odd, albeit it helps them cope. He tortured and killed his entire family. They suffered. Putting a "heavenly spin on it doesn't change that.)
Anyone who thinks this clown didn't kill his wife must be living in a dream world.
the man was a sociopath who killed his wife and blatantly denied it -- his children were starting to articulate about their mother being in the trunk of the car.... he had no qualms apparently about taking a hatchet to his kids and then setting everything and everyone on fire.... evil -- evil --
while his late wife and children are in heaven -- this man is in the depths of that lake of fire -- and I hope suffering throughout eternity for what he did
Highly unlikely. Just dead.
I was married to a sociopath/psychopath for over 9 years, and believe me, this guy was not a sociopath. If he was indeed a sociopath, he wouldn't ever kill himself. he's too special and entitled. He may kill the kids, but I can guarantee you that he would never have killed himself. They are, deep inside, chicken. They will hurt or kill anyone around them, but they would cry like a baby and refuse to kill themselves. I could see a sociopath kill his children, hiding the crime somewhere and taking off for a country where they could not extradite him. and living with an empty conscious and no guilt. But he would not do himself in too. Any of the major serial killers, Bundy, Gacy, etc. never would kill themselves. Because they always hope they are smart enough to get free, that the rest of the world is stupid and they alone are smart.
abby - But if he asked for forgiveness just before he died, the whole family is reunited living in bliss without the worries of being divorced, supervised visits, "shrink" tests, etc.
You need to do some more research on the concept of forgiveness as outlined by Jesus, "thinker". There is more to it than just "asking" for it.
jmsuss, please don't try to turn this into a theological debate. We're speculating about what the perpetrator was thinking. I agree with Willow that he was NOT a sociopath, and I too have known a few. Possible borderline personality disorder or something similar that is prone to psychotic episodes under extreme stress.
truthseeker - According to Powell's sister, he was driven to this act by all the "haters." Yes, anything to deflect blame.
jmsuss - Really? How are we to know that since the recognized "text" from which all knowledge regarding sins was interpretted, written, re-written, edited, condensed, translated, etc over the centuries. How long does one have to wait after requests before receiving foregiveness? Is there a different waiting period for different sins? Where is the recognized table of delays/infractions? Are they universal across all religious sects or do some have a fast track to heaven?
We all need to pray for the people close to these familys!!!
Stop making up excuses for this F**cking coward!!!!
you need to understand the difference between EXCUSE and EXPLAINATION.
Not all explainations are good, logical or even acceptable...but none-the-less, they are real.
An excuse, is the opposite of the truth.
"I killed my kids because the devil made me do it" - thats an excuse
"I killed my kids because they were starting to tell the truth about mommy in the trunk" - thats an explaination.
and as far as this article goes, their explaination is off the mark given the facts.
So sick. So So sick. I remember watching interviews with him and there was obiviously no doubt. He always looked like he was ready to confess right there. Then he has the sick old man who not only admits to sleeping with his sons wife but is a child perv on top of it. These two little boys - all a kid that age wants to do is have fun and be safe. How do we have such sick people in our society.
Because they are in every society.
what kind of person takes their small children camping at midnight in the middle of a fierce snow storm?
The warning signs were there. I cant believe that people let this happen. He killed his wife and got away with it. Now he has killed his sons. shame on all those who let this happen.
I said the same thing, Lou, in a thread on this story yesterday. The comments were debating between the law saying 'innocent till proved guilty' and common sense. My take was that 'innocent till proved guilty' was very important to our system, but common sense was needed on a case-by-case basis to prevent harm to possible future victims. Of course, there was disagreement to this, like you can't predict the future, but a section of this story illustrates my position;
Recent cases of a father killing himself and his children, include:
This is one of those cases. Note that the wife produced the email spelling out exactly what the husband threatened to do. Why in hell would ANY reasonable person allow the husband to get near that baby? Somebody would pay for that if I were the mother. Likewise, as soon as these boys started to talk about 'Mom was in the trunk', why were they allowed near this animal? These are the case by case examples I was referring to. No, you can't predict the future, but no one should be forced into taking unnecessary risks with children's lives.
Lou - "people" did do something. He lost custody of his kids and were allowed only supervised visits. From what I gather he physically forced the accompanying adult out of the home. Other than grant supervised visits only in public places...but honestly, if he wanted to kill his kids that badly, he could have shown up in said public place with a gun and blown dozens of people away along with his kids, so even that isn't a fail-safe.
Just plain old f***ing crazy.
My condolences to the maternal grandparents. I feel for the social worker. She will never be the same.
This whole situation is horrible. I feel great sorrow for the extended family & friends of Susan and her sons. I hope that for their sake, eventually Susan's remains will be found.
Some of these comments are so one sided, so i will do the same from another angle. I have always believed (and have from the beginning) that this guy is 100% innocent. Here are the facts in the case, based on evidence, or the lack of it--- there is no indication that his wife was killed, and if so, none that she was killed by him. No one can say for sure that she did not run away with a guy, leaving behind her belongings, so not to be tracked. The police did not find a single evidence implicating Powell. Law enforcement could not get their hands on him the right, honorable way, by using the law books. Instead, their relentless pressure led to sympathy for the grandparents and the judge wrongfully took his kids away from him. They could not get him to trial, (which they never would have been able to anyways), so they tried to mentally suffocate him. For sure, this guy had some arrogance, but the power trip from the courts, the grandparents, and law enforcement had him cornered. He snapped, and used a sharp object against his kids to save them from a painful death, even if he did something so very wrong. Botton line- the only true victims are the kids and they suffered as a result of a lot of greedy, blood thirst people around them. It's a cheap shot to take a swipe at this guy alone. He's a culprit, but far from being the only one. How are u all going to react if his ex wife is found alive in Bolivia or she is found to have been killed by someone else ? That would be 3 murders at the hands of the courts and law enforcement- it's 100% on them. Who is going to try them ?
Well I think the comment the son made was pretty telling that when daddy was taking them camping at 1am in the middle of winter and said that "mommy was in the trunk" is pretty telling.
I'd have to disagree. The woman's dead and your are the ONLY person who hasn't accepted this.
One of the stipulations of his evaluation was a lie detector test. Game over for him. He was a coward of the lowliest type. First he kills his wife and the kids know it. He creates a horror show for everyone concerned. Those boys knew what he did to their mother and his own Coward Father assisted him in terrorizing them and their mother by aiding that crime. His own Coward Father knew he was going to kill those boys and he let him do it. This coward doesn't deserve a burial and should be thrown away in the nearest trash dump. The Coward Father should stand trial for all three murders and for co-conspiracy to murder his grandsons. The 'living' victims here are the mother's parent's, The Cox's, show some respect.
Fabian, a woman is 11 times more likely to be killed by a person that she has a intimate relationship with than by a stranger. Very few women just take off without the kids or at least contacting them. All the lack of evidence proves is he did it well. The wife was murdered in a small town. Who knows how good a police force they have. When the Ramsey girl was murdered the cops in her town had never even investigated a murder. It takes time and privacy to get rid of a body. A spouse has both. The kids were starting to come out of shock and talking. He was getting squeezed by his crime and decided to kill the witnesses and himself to avoid prison.
You're delusional. Everything pointed to this man killing his wife. The fact that he did a good job of covering up the crime indeed does make it a challenge to prove in a court of law. But it doesn't matter...he himself just now proved everyone was right all along. Pressure and pestering from the authorities, media, and society does NOT make a normal person take a hatchet to their childrens' heads and then blow them up. Normal people do NOT ever do that. People who are blaming society and the authorities for "pushing him to this result" are just delusional in their own right or have a bent against authority. The fact is if society or the authorities did anything to cause this it's that they didn't do ENOUGH to prevent it. He shouldn't have been let to see his kids at all. He was suspected of being a cold-blooded killer and now he's proved it himself.
Fabian-
Really, so you don't think the judge took his kids away for a very good reason? I guess in your book being caught with child pornography is not a very big crime. People that look at kiddy porn and get caught should NOT be around children, even their own!
This man deserves sympathy from no one and I truly believe he killed his wife. His fabricated story is quite the joke. BTW, how many women out there do you think would really just up and leave their children behind? Hardly any and his wife's family even stated that. You know there is foul play when the woman leaves behind her beloved children. Your comment Fabian makes me sick that you are trying to blame the judicial system for this heinous crime. If anything, it's too bad the judge allowed any visitation, he was obviously out of his f-ing mind to do something like this.
sorry American American, if their daughter was murdered, i feel sorry about that, but right now, they are the ones who will trully be suffering for the rest of their lives. They tried to put their hands in a snake pit and pull the little babies out. And it backfired right on their face. They had no right taking his kids away from him. Any wrongfully accused father will be pushed in a corner. If law enforcement found evidence against hin, i say if found guilty, give him the death penalty, but until then, they were wrong about harrassing and mentally torturing him. They knew the kids were his life. Did u see the grand pa on tv ? He said he knew Powell would react that way if he was cornered. If he knew that, then why did he put his grandkids in that danger ? Because of personal agenda of vendetta according to what he believed. He cared more to weaken Powell as a man than to wish the best for his grandkids. Cowardice and arrogance on all sides except for those sweet adorable kids.
ok Fabian you say that when its your daughter dead and grands blown up by some punk. there is NO advocating this situation...be a MAN and MAN-UP; quit taking the low road.
@Nic12345, i am sorry but I had no idea that Josh Powell was into Kiddie porn. Then he should for sure have been in jail already. You see how justice was slow ? If they had send him to jail for engaging in kiddie porn, he should have been nowhere around his kids at all ever...but one question. If he did this and everyone wants his head in one way or another so badly, then why wasn't he convicted and in jail already ?
Devil's son- u are making a point based on stats and not facts on the case. But still, do u honestly believe that a 2 year old remembers something 2 years later in his life. Most 2 year olds don't know of tiny events that happened a few days ago. Do u expect an impartial jury to believe that ? What is more likely, the kid recalling something or someone planting something in their mind ? Come on, be honest, friend. U can do this.
Jacklolat, u still haven't answered the key question- if they find evidence that his wife is either alive or murdered by someone else, who's hands are filled with blood then ? You mean to say, u would have no care then of how this guy has been wrongfully bashed for 2 years straight and it took a toll on him (not exusing his actions) ?
When he murdered his sons, he admitted GUILT. If you can maliciously KILL two innocent children you are guilty as hell, of killing THEIR mother!!! If his life was as bad as you seem to believe, he could have taken his own life. But to kill the kids, to me demonstrates he killed his wife, for the same sick reason." If I can't have them (wife, kids) no one shall." He is one sick dude, who I plan to write my next horror film about....
Wake up and get real. I'm hoping you're not married or have children.
Powell took the children to live with his father. His father is in jail for child porn. The children would have been removed from the situation anyway.
But Hey, let's blame the world for Powell's mental instability. Accuse an unknown suspect for the disappearance of his wife. Accuse the maternal grandparents of coaching their grandchildren. Blame the courts.
This guy was backed into a corner by 'mean' people therby justifying swinging an axe at his own flesh and blood.
Jessica, see there u go. I thought reason and discussion had some value instead of personal attacks. Did u see what happened when a posse for war was created. Thousands of lives were needlessly lost in Iraq. It is scary that there are people with your thought who sit in a jury. That is pre trial bias. Instead of being so vile, why don't u calmly think from all angles. Why didn't u go tell the prosecution to try the guy ? hey i would have been on your side if they had evidence. But they had none. How many people have (historically) innocently lost their lives in the death chamber because of the same posse behaviour ? We just never learn...blood thirst an eye for a suspected loss of an eye, so very Talibanish.
You must be related to the Powell's to defend him. He was absolutely guilty. His son said "mommy was in the trunk" when they went camping, then mommy and daddy left and mommy got lost. She was probably alive, and he threatened to kill the boys, so she cooperated - you can figure out the rest. You evidently have not been keeping up on all of the evidence mounting against this sick man.
Dream on little broomstick cowboy
@CMS 5, that's one cute yorkie man, aren't they so sweet, and the bark is even cuter.
Anyways, so Powell himself wasn't into Child porn, his sicko dad was. Did Powell know about it beforehand and didn't protect his kids ? Or was he unaware until the law came knocking and they took his kids away ? because they are 2 completely different things. I agree with some of what u say. Obviously, any person who kills his child is the worst scum on earth, so was this guy, that's a no brainer and given. Question is- was he unfairly treated and could this have been prevented ? I say very much he was outright abused and it could not have been prevented, which somewhat coincides with the gun debate, where we say people kill people, guns don't. The same way, if he had lost all his visitation, he would have still found a way to conduct a murder suicide and I fear he may have included the grandparents as well. The guy was not psycho up until the point his wife disappeared, but he lost it once everyone cornered him (with zero evidence). Like I said, put the guy on trial with evidence, find him guilty and then execute him, but don't needlessly poke at the wasp nest.
fabian: how about he hacked his kids' necks apart with a hatchet and then set the place on fire? There is no excuse for that behavior, lots of people's marriages dissolve, lots of people are raised by monsters like ha apparently was and they don't hack their kids necks and then burn them to death. You statement is idiotic and I hope you don't have any children of your own if you feel this behavior was in any way justified. How do you figure kids were wrongfully removed from his care if he was allowing them to live in the household of a known pedophile? If you think that is wrongful you need yourself evaluated too. Sick!
Fabian from Canada, the oldest boy drew a picture in day care 6 months after the father took the kids, left Utah and moved in with his creepy old father. The grandparents were not allowed to see them -- so your idea that they planted those thoughts in the kids heads is incorrect. Also, Susan had complained to her co-workers for weeks that she couldn't take it any more and was planning on leaving him. Her husband told her what to wear, what to do, isolated her from family and friends -- and she told everyone that she was going to take her boys and go. She probably told him on the night she disappeared...and we know what happened.
My opinion paralleled yours in many respects until he killed his children. At that point, he proved himself willing and able to commit horrific, heartless, evil acts. We can't know for a certainty that he killed his wife, but he clearly was capable of doing so.
People who are wrongly accused don't "just snap" and take a hatchet to their kids and burn the house down. Most courts in the US fall over themselves backwards to give custody back to unworthy parents; why would the judge in this case mandate a psycho-sexual evaluation unless there was some concern?
Even if if he was wrongly accused, seems to me that he would have submitted to the eval as part of the hoops he had to go through to get his boys back. That's what reasonable people do. In the meantime, he had supervised visitation, so he wasn't totally without his kids.
No, I don't feel sorry for this person at all. He deserves whatever hell he gets.
Haven't you people figured out that 'Fabian from Canada' is a troll? Ask yourselves, can any person be this dumb and still breath? When the answer is "Not possible!", then you're dealing with a troll. Never feed a troll!!!
You do know that those tests are so inaccurate, they are inadmissible in criminal court, don't you? A friend of mine failed hers even though she was one the most straight-laced people I have ever known. She was simply nervous. OTOH, sociopaths routinely pass them even though they are lying through their teeth.
As for the comments of the kids: kids often speak "metaphorically" for want of a better word. Over 10 years ago my husband and I were separated and per state law, our older son had to go to a session for kids whose parents are divorcing. He was eight at the time. Apparently he drew a picture of a child being chased with an axe. He told them that was how he felt about the separation. These idiots took it literally, assuming that either I or my husband had LITERALLY chased him with an axe and it caused a huge mess as I'm sure you can imagine. The kids weren't taken, but they did learn to hate and fear authority as a result of dealing with the overbearing CPS witch who periodically came to my house and asked them a bunch of ridiculous questions. Not a good lesson. For crying out loud, we live in the middle of a big city and have never even owned an axe! You have to be very careful when you interpret what children say.
Powell's words and actions the night of and the years after his wife's disappearance were highly questionable. Clearly odd enough to cast a great deal of suspicion. Many times suspects are placed lower on the 'list' by lie detectors, actions, words and verifiable alibis. Even if he wasn't directly responsible for his wife's disappearance, his behaviors indicated he had knowledge of what occurred. Why would anyone move if their spouse is 'missing'? He takes that to his grave.
I'm guessing that he was way left of center prior to his wife's disappearance. One look at his father and you know that his 'normal childhood' was far different from the majority. What man would sit calmly while his father claimed that his wife had 'come on to him'? Even if that were the case, what man would allow that to be broadcast to the world? No, nothing about him and his family was 'normal'.
hey I have an idea!!! Stop GLORIFYING PARENTS THAT MURDER THEIR KIDS....BKA CASEY ANTHONY>>>>she's making millions for killing her baby, and look at all the other parents following suit....the media could care less that a child or children were murdered....they want to make the murderer the victim and the celebrity....GLORIFY THE VICTIMS!!!!!!
I agree that people who violate the laws should not be able to profit by it in any way. It's too bad that they didn't find her guilty and execute her. Same with the woman who drowned her children just so she could get a man. Same with all women who abort their unborn children, just for the sake of convenience or because they didn't have a choice in their pregnancy (raped). Adding the pain of an abortion to the pain of being raped just adds more tragedy upon past tragedy. Carry the baby to term and then allow someone to adopt instead. When we devalue life of the unborn, we devalue the life of EVERYONE ELSE too. Shame on everyone who performs abortions and made it legal to abort on demand. Shame on those who are trying for force doctors who don't want to kill babies to do it. The devaluing of life will not stop until we end killing the most innocent of all - the unborn!
Okay Tragedy; we get it - you are pro-life. I am aware that abortion is not a form of birth control. My husband and I already have a child and take extra precautions to make sure we don't have an unplanned pregnancy. But I am so sorry - stay out of MY womb. Lamest "explanation" - rape. I am not going to carry a baby to term if I am ever raped and impregnated. Why would I want to relive the pain of the rape for 9 months? I think it would be a hard life for a child to think that they were given up and unwanted. No one wants to have an abortion, but I think it should be available for some instances.
If you want to have your father's baby, that's fine, probably in your genes already...but I don't think it's a good idea to pollute the gene pool with inbreeding. That's where I stand on abortion.
It's really hard to believe the supervised visits weren't required to take place in a government controlled facility. (The man was under suspicion for the disappearance of his wife.) The judge didn't order it and obviously the social services agency involved didn't have a policy in place to effect this. As a result two innocent children are dead. Judges review a lot of family cases every day. They don't have time to get to know the families and have to rely on a peacemaker type position. Social services agencies do deal intimately with cases and should have better feel for the danger level of a parent. In this case there were plenty of red flags. What a shame.
What government-controlled facility are you talking about? The Post Office? Oh, no one has ever walked into a Post Office, a City Hall or a "government-controlled" city park with a semi-automatic and blown people away. Jail? Though evidence pointed towards him, legally authorities didn't have enough evidence to charge him. That wasn't the reason the kids were taken from him. I know we are all frustrated and want someone living to blame so that that person can be punished, and in this case, with the actual factual knowledge known to the proper authorities, there wasn't anything else that could be done legally. Child protection laws are as they are so that innocent parents can't be denied custody at the other parent's whim, and even then innocent parents lose custody all the time, just as parents who had no business being parents can get full custody. It isn't perfect, bit if you come up with a better way, please let us family law judges, attorneys, paralegals and social workers know.
This is just the saddest thing ever to be in the news. Too terrible to comprehend, really, and those sweet children. I agree with the previous posters, Jessica and Bill Austin. So selfish to take those little children just because he knew he was about to be found out for what he did. The grandparents' heavenly spin is a way of coping, but I agree, nothing heavenly about this tragedy.
Revenge against who? He had already killed his wife! Spineless, worthless piece of sh!t.
It's all gay marriages fault!!!
lol!
Believe it or deny it; there may be something to such a claim. There have been a couple studies done but much more need to be done to solidify anything. It will take years before enough studies have been done with enough cases in countries and states where gay marriage is legal to produce any kind of valid results.
But, consider ancient Sparta. Children with any kind of perceived weakness, illness, or defect, however slight, were thrown off cliffs by the parents and city elders.
Gay relationships were mandated by law in Sparta. All men were warriors and all were required to take a young boy as a gay lover until the boys were 28 years of age, when these same boys were required to take female wives and produce children as was expected of them.
They were so messed up in the head that many of them could not even sleep with their new wives unless they were shaven down and dressed like the men in their lives, returning to continue sleeping with their men as part of the acclimatization process afterward--and even then it sometimes took days before the men could bring themselves to consummate their marriages!
These are historical facts. Don't believe it? See all film segments of the PBS special, "The Spartans," for the gory details. (Kinda gives new meaning to the practice of 'teabagging' amongst the "Spartans" amongst gamers who play Halo, doesn't it?) :)
How to interpret said facts in the light of cause and effect in relation to the modern age, though? Only time and further studies will tell.
????????????????????????????????????????????? Relevance???
Uh yeah, if I had a women I had to have "shaven down" to look like a man, I don't think I would be very attracted to her.
Shaven down to look like a boy. They promoted pedophelia of boys by soldiers because OLD WOUNDED WARRIORS/MEN wanted the girls for themselves. That's why many ancient cultures didn't recognize a male as an adult until he was 30. Female children could be traded off like cattle at 12 or younger. That bit still goes on today. If you want to get at the root of sexual deviance, don't blame it on gay men, blame it on selfish OLD MEN.
It was their hair that was shaven down. Some women are very unattractive bald. There are some who are quite attractive even bald. But, the point was that women had their hair shaven so as to more closely resemble the men.
Relevance? Perhaps only to the comment that spun this tangent off. Perhaps relevant to societies that tend to cheapen the value of lives and devalue traditional marriage in societies where homosexuality is rampant and lawful. Otherwise a fun factoid for future reference. :)
dcpyle - your point would be relevant if Josh Powell's parents were gay.
And if anyone entity has cheapened the value of marriage it's the very government that says that marriage should be between a man and a woman. Legal marriage in this country is nothing but a business contract that ensures that you monetarily get out what you put in, and that any children born during the marriage - whether they are yours or not - are provided for. The "sanctity" of marriage is a piece of paper you sign after the useless ceremony you plunked $100k on. It has nothing to do with love or sex or commitment or morals or religion. Atheists can get married - how "sacred" is that?
OHC, you are wrong about how it was amongst the Spartans. The older men were required by law to take young boys as lovers, which younger boys becoming men would later become the older men who would again take young boys as lovers. It had nothing to do with selfish older men. It had everything to do with the rampant, mandatory practice of homosexuality amongst the people of Sparta.
Panic Moon, pornography also is another device of society that cheapens marriage and family relations. A number of people with severe marital problems and who later devalued life enough to commit crimes against family and others in society identify pornography as the beginning of their downfall into their problem lifestyles.
Josh Powell's father was into child porn and it would not be a stretch to find that Josh Powell also was into some form of pornography before his final downfall. The lie-detector test mandated by the court would have revealed that and Powell knew it.
As to governments cheapening marriage by acting against diverging from the traditional practice of marriage between man and woman only, that is not the case at all. Fact is, preliminary studies have shown that in regions that allow same sex marriage, marriage actually loses value to society and the number of divorces and marital problems have increased as well as the numbers of new marriages have also decreased. That said, more studies must be done over the longer term to maintain that claim. Only time and a number of more studies will tell for sure but the preliminary studies make the situation look bad for future society.
And, believe it or not, marriages involving religion and serious religious committment by both spouses have been shown to produce the lowest divorce rates. I have read several studies and statistical analyses over the years that have time and again shown that. One study I read a decade ago, for instance, puts typical marriages at a divorce rate of 50% or so.
In other words, 50% or more of marriages will statistically end in divorce as the national average. Among Mormons, however, that percentage is 25% or less, similar to Orthodox Jews and one other religious group, the name of which I have since forgotten.
One study I read a couple years ago, however, puts the divorce rate much higher in states that allow same sex marriage. But, again, the studies that have been done are preliminary and more research remains to be done over the next decade before any useful statistics on this will become available to the general public. Patience is a virtue and time levels all things. :)
The only consolation anyone can get from this tragedy is in knowing that those dear children are in Heaven right now. I heard that they were starting to remember that they went camping with their mother in their automobile trunk and she never returned with them. I guess we know how she disappeared now. The media will always distort things to get people to buy their stories. What an absurd idea - "revenge". Those dear children are in a better place right now, even if their disturbed dad isn't.Note to H25 and others who may wonder about this: the reason we have such sick people in our society is because they have not gotten to know Jesus Christ. We are all born with a sin nature and all are capable of doing what he did. I like what someone said, "There, but for the grace of God, go I." Only Jesus Christ can change the person from the inside out and fill us with the Holy Spirit so that we can overcome the evil that we all have within us and the evil that is in this sick world!
Well said - the imaginary man in the sky is the solution to all our problems.
There is another consolation in this. That Powell creep won't be passing on his DNA to the general population! Heartless a thing to say it is true but my comment also is true--whether a person wants to accept this truth or not.
Keep that shyte to yourself Tragedy. He probably considered himself a Christian.
So should all children be killed so they can be in your so-called "better place?" Your comments make no sense.
I know many righteous people who are NOT Christians. And I know too many self-righteous people who call themselves Christians.
Those "dear children" are rotting in graves right now. If people would just THINK and read their damn book themselves, they would see for themselves the absurdity of god. IF people didn't console themselves with fairy tales, they might actually VALUE life more here and now, instead of pretending it's all ok because innocent children will live forever in paradise. Stop the LIE.
OHC, we get it, you're an atheist. Don't you think that's a bit off topic? Why attack people for their beliefs especially when by your own admission it is comforting to do so? Why upset people on purpose? Nobody actually knows what happens after death, any more than anyone knows what happened to Susan.
You claim we are all capable of what Josh Powell did--planning the murder of his two young sons and then executing that plan. Speak for yourself, bub.
Powell murdered his sons. The judge that court orderd this visitation in the home gave him the opportunity.
What judge would put not only these children, but the social worker (ordered to take notes!) in this dangerous situation? Did the judge not think the SW taking notes would not anger the man?
If the grandmother had not complied with the court order...no matter what the child said...in MN she would be facing 90 days IN JAIL for contempt of court! Even if the child was afraid of the parent. The judge rules!
I'm sorry, but I keep wondering why those children were available to him once the mommy in the trunk business came up. I'm sure the social worker is sick over this, but WHY exactly weren't the kids stripped from this man entirely? Why was he visiting? I guess Mommy in the Trunk isn't worrisome enough from a mental standpoint in this day and age. This is just another failure of the legal system that allows perpetrators more rights than victims and favors civil rights of a disturbed POS over the human rights of a child. Unbelievable. This makes me sick.
Heather u are getting sick at your owned biased thoughts. Besides someone planting the idea in the kid's head, if mommy really was in the trunk, when was she there ? was mommy hum*ing someone in the trunk behind daddy ? There is no evidence that the guy did anything to his wife. why was he taken from his kids in the first place ? Is this western justice of innocence until guilty or have we trully become like the Taliban. Sickening thought process. The legal system 100% failed this dad and his kids. Disgusting courts.
"The legal system failed this dad and his kids?" The legal system did not take a hatchet to the kids's head and then blow them sky high. Get a life. He killed his wife and every sane, unbiased person knows it. His "alibi" is one of the worst ever created. Go back and really learn the details of his "story." Forget that he took the kids camping in a blizzard, forget that he "forgot which day it was" and ended up missing work the next day because he was "camping," forget that there was a fan set up to dry a wet spot on the carpet. Heck, sure is bad luck that his wife disappeared on the exact same day he happened to do the weirdest, stupidest "camping" trip of his life. What bad luck indeed. Then because all of this sure does look pretty bad for him, he moves into his dad's house and subjects them to a household where the old man is a voyeur, possessor of child pornography, and all out creep and STILL it's everyone but Josh's fault his life is turning out this way. We're all out to get Josh and he proves he's the good guy by whacking his kids in the head with a hatchet and blowing them up. Yeah, I see I've got it all wrong...poor Josh.
Fabian obviously has no children. Children DO remember things from when they are 2 and 4 years old. I have very early memories. The children didn't say anything earlier because they were never without their father and sicko grandfather. There is evidence that both men were involved with child porn. Most likely the mother discovered this and thus her life was taken. When the children were removed from the father they began to tell the story and he shut them up too. You are living in Lala-land.
Fabian, you are a sick person. You are absolutely disgusting. Get back to Canada.
jackie, i have kids also and my daughter swears she remembers things that happened when she was two. however, what she remembers is the retelling of those occurrences. she 'remembers' events exactly the way family members recount said events to her... since i was there, i know the inconsistencies in what she 'remembers' and know how they got there. kids that old should NOT be harrassed by investigators. the entire thing is effed up and as long as we just want to pile on the dead murderer we won't learn a damn thing about how to help prevent tragedies like this in the future and better protect our children. as soon as someone says something other than he's a monster and god be with the survivors, they're discounted as condoning the murder.
Yeah you can forget all of it; the rulers of the rule are out and in great numbers I see. They know it all and seen for themselves the wrongs of this man. At least he was kind enough to actually kill the kids before setting them all on fire. I would almost think he himself probably burned to death. Everyone knows what happened yeah right. Having no proof of his involvement in the murder of his wife and the way his rights were violated is the very reason why this all happened. Shame the kids had to be a part of this situation, but, as the story goes life is not fair sometimes.
All of you going on and on about how he should have been done, is the same as doing it yourselves. Can't wait for your turn in the bucket so to speak!!! Hail to all the great seeeeeeeers of the future charges. I can see it now arrest him my government before he commits the crime cause as the great seeeeers we know everything!! Get a Grip. Next story.
You're assuming alot for someone who is making fun of other people doing the same thing. I'm sorry - but if you think this man was "kind" for killing his children and not letting them burn alive - again, YOU don't know that for a fact, either - I don't think I need to be a "seer" to know that you shouldn't be a parent, and I hope to God you aren't. That's not mysticism, just common sense based on YOUR own words.
Sorry about your luck, my children are already grown and doing ok. Thanks for your concern though! It's about the people who get involved and the reasons they do. If he had burned them alive, they would have suffered greatly and that would be even worse than what has already happened.
Oh I think it was there for all to see in the story, how he killed his kids with a hatchet then set the house on fire! Some people just don't know when to just take care of their own problems and let other people alone. 2yrs this guy went through a lot of personal attacks, were they warranted? Who knows for sure. The police never filed any charges on him and the lack of concern for the mother is warranted. Didn't she sleep with his father. If your spouse slept with your parent how much concern would you have for them?
Well have a good one and don't judge people too fast, as your assesment of me was incorrect. Oh and sometime sense is not so common as look too at our present condition in this country
I feel bad ,but only for the two little boys that lost their future!.
Hello! Wake up people...revenge against what???? He killed his wife, who the heck takes their kids camping in a snow storm...also he should have never had visits with his children after they found the pornography. I've always felt in my heart that he murdered his wife and now there will be no justice served and his boys don't get to grow up and see that the world can be a better place.
Wait and see Holly Bobo's brother killed her....who watches their sister get taken by a man in camo and drug into the woods without doing something????? Both of these murders are just baffleing to me that no one can see the killer is right in front of their eyes!
It was the grandfather's, not his. Apparently the kids were taken because they were all staying in grandpa's house.
Bill Austin is correct on all counts. "And people ask me...Old Thang, why to you drink?"
This is why.
Pass the scotch.
More psychobabble... revenge?!?!?! How about cowardice! Nothing more. He kills his children because they are starting to leak the truth to the authorities and then this eunuch knows he cannot hide these murders so he offs himself too. What a weak coward of a person. The children and his wife suffer the most while this miscreant gets his just deserts....such a tragedy!