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Subscribe to RSSMSNBC's Thomas Roberts talks to Chuck and Judy Cox, parents of Susan Powell, about their grandsons' deaths and their daughter's disappearance.
Updated at 8:35 p.m. ET: PUYALLUP, Wash. – A 911 recording reveals a social worker's attempts in a more than six-minute phone call to get a dispatcher to send authorities quickly to the home of Josh Powell after he locked himself and his two sons in the home he then set ablaze.
Social worker Elizabeth Griffin-Hall brought the Powell boys, Charlie, 5, and Braden, 7, for their court-ordered visit with their father on Sunday. When she arrived, Josh Powell took the children and shut the door in her face, so she called 911.
In the first minutes of the 911 call, Griffin-Hall laid out the situation briefly, then asked, "What should I do? Nothing like this has ever happened before at one of these visitations. I'm really shocked, I can hear one of the kids crying," Griffin-Hall said. "This is the craziest thing, he looked right at me and closed the door."
The dispatcher at one point asked her what address she was at. Griffin-Hall, who was calling from inside her car, spent about a minute and a half looking for the address, asking at one point, "You can't find me by GPS?" While still looking for the address she said, "I think I need help right away."
Four minutes into the call, she said she smelled gasoline. The fear in her voice became increasingly apparent; she asked for police to be sent to the home.
"I'd like to pull out of the driveway because I smell gasoline, and he won't let me in," Griffin-Hall said.
After six minutes on the call, the dispatcher said: "We'll have somebody look for you there."
Police in Washington state released a 911 call placed by the social worker who dropped Josh Powell's two young sons off before he murdered them and took his own life in a house fire. NBC's Miguel Almaguer reports.
"OK, how long will it be?" Griffin-Hall asked.
"I don't know, ma'am. We have to respond to emergency life-threatening situations first. The first available deputy ..."
"This could be life-threatening," she said. "He went to court on Wednesday and he didn't get his kids back. I'm afraid for their lives."
Within moments, the house lit up in flames.
"He blew up the house and the kids!" Griffin-Hall screamed in a separate call.
"The kids and the father were in the house?" the dispatcher asked.
"Yes," said Griffin-Hall. "He slammed the door in my face. So I kept knocking. I thought it was a mistake, I kept knocking, and then I called 911.”
Excerpts from the call were obtained and broadcast Tuesday night by Washington NBC affiliate, KING5.
911 center's handling of call to be reviewed
Authorities said the call could have been handled better, and that it was unfortunate for the dispatcher to leave the social worker with the impression no help was immediately on the way. The agency that runs the call center said it would review the matter and start a disciplinary investigation if necessary.
Still, the recordings raised questions about an emergency response to a custody visit that ended with Powell killing himself and his boys.
Pierce County Sheriff's Detective Ed Troyer said deputies appeared to have been dispatched during the call, and he did not believe the conversation caused unnecessary delays.
"Are we unhappy with the etiquette and the manner? Yes," Troyer said. "Did it affect the response time? No. Dispatchers are typing information and addresses while they're on the phone with callers."
Troyer said his department is waiting for a copy of the "call-and-dispatch" log from the 911 center to see exactly how long it took for deputies to respond.
Griffin-Hall’s husband said she is "not doing very well" despite being offered counseling, KING5 reported. He told the station she was "devastated and traumatized" by the episode and had worked with the boys for a long time, forming a bond with them.
He said she made a distraught call to him after the fire, repeatedly saying about the boys: "They trusted me, they trusted me."
911 call from Josh Powell's sister: 'I'm afraid of seeing something'
A tearful 911 call placed from Josh Powell’s sister, Alina Powell, also was released from around the time of the fire. Alina had received an email from Josh implying the boys were in danger, reported KING5.
"I think my brother might be in trouble or something," she said. "He's sending weird emails, he's saying goodbye."
She later says on the call, "I'm not afraid of him, he'd never hurt me, I'm afraid of seeing something I don't want to see."
The double murder-suicide took place days after Powell, whose wife Susan went missing in 2009, was ordered to undergo a psycho-sexual evaluation as part of a bid to regain custody of his children from his in-laws.
Report: Powell left apologetic voicemail minutes before death
The Powell family was living in Utah when Susan went missing. Authorities in Washington and Utah are now effectively treating her disappearance as murder, even though her body has yet to be found.
Salt Lake County District Attorney Sim Gill acknowledged for the first time that investigators believe Powell is likely dead, but he said in an interview with the AP that the case remains a missing persons probe for now.
"I think when I talk about it as a missing persons case, that's because we haven't located the body of Susan Powell," Gill said. "Do we think that she may have met harm? Sure. I think that's been an ongoing assumption with law enforcement."
Investigators said Josh Powell withdrew $7,000 in cash from a bank the day before he killed himself and his two young sons in the house fire.
Pierce County Prosecutor Mark Lindquist said detectives obtained Powell's bank records Monday, and on Tuesday they searched a storage unit he rented. It isn't clear what happened to the money.
Josh Powell claimed that on the night Susan Powell vanished, he took Charlie and Braden from their then home in West Valley City, Utah, on a late-night camping trip. Authorities eventually searched the central Utah desert but found nothing.
Susan Powell's father said that when police went to the family home after she was reported missing, they found a wet spot in the house being dried by two fans. Police have not commented further on what they found.
Last September, authorities got a warrant to search the home of Josh Powell's father, Steve. Josh Powell and his sons were living there at the time. The documents obtained by the AP did not specify a suspect.
In addition to the charges, the warrant listed Steve Powell's work laptop computer as well as cars that he used.
Authorities found explicit images on his computers during the search, and he was jailed on voyeurism and child porn charges. The boys were later sent to live with Susan Powell's parents.
'Mommy's in the trunk'
Speaking to reporters Monday after the boys' deaths, their grandfather Charles Cox said the boys were emotionally distant when they first arrived at their home but recently had begun to open up.
That gave Cox hope that someday they would be able say what happened to their mom.
John Powell driven by revenge in killing sons, himself?
The boys had not recently made more comments about what may have happened to their mother, Cox said, though he related what Braden said nearly two years ago.
"The four ladies that were supervising that activity said, 'Well, what's this?' 'That's us going camping.' 'Who's in the car?' And Braden said, 'That's Daddy, that's Charlie, that's me.' Then he said, 'Well, mommy's in the trunk,'" Cox said.
"Well, if Mommy's in the trunk, why is she in the trunk?' He didn't know, he didn't say, I guess. Then, he said, l we stopped somewhere and mommy and daddy got out and mommy didn't come back," he said.
West Valley, Utah, police chief Buzz Nielsen said despite the death of the young boys and Josh Powell, the probe would continue.
"Our case is not closed," he said.
Lindquist, who is overseeing the voyeurism prosecution of Steve Powell but is not directly involved in the Susan Powell case, said it's clear to him that it's a homicide case.
"I don't think at this point I'm going to call this a missing person case," he said. "It's reasonable to call Josh Powell's decision to kill himself and his kids a confession to the murder of Susan Powell."
A memorial service for the boys will take place on Saturday in Tacoma, Wash. at 1:00 p.m. ET., NBC News reported.
KING-5 News' Lindsay Chamberlain, msnbc.com's Alastair Jamieson and The Associated Press contributed to this report.
Leave a Comment:
I hope everyone will google Maryanne Godboldo after reading this. Check out social worker Mia Wenk after reading this and then tell me about your social worker heroes. There are two sides to everything. Yes, social workers are certainly needed in a case like this, but this story is being played up and others are being played down to give the social workers and cps/dhs complete unchecked power. Social workers are just as responsible for gruesome horrible mistakes that go unreported/undisciplined.
Why are you bringing up social workers that have nothing to do with this case? What is that going to prove?
I would not want to be in this social worker's shoes. She's going to be haunted for the rest of her life. She was dealing with a madman.
This murder/suicide has nothing, NOTHING, to do with the social worker. The judge perhaps should have ordered all visitation take place in a neutral public place rather than the home, but I don't know the laws there. The social worker is completely innocent in this. Social workers don't write laws, "momstheword." They are just doing their jobs as instructed.
Redmoth, I literally just said the same thing!! Those boys should NEVER have been taken to that house for a supervised visit! This man had mental problems. The judge was concerned enough to remove them from his custody. CPS & DHCP really screwed up here.
momstheword ... I think this is a dumb place to air your own apparent problems!!!! This social worker had nothing ... nothing to do with the courts order!!!!
This is a case of a "Self Centered killer" and nothing more ............
wow, it's really sad that you were able to miss the whole point of this story and only focus on, as lolabee said as well, on social workers who are irrelevant to this situation. how does a father killing himself and his two sons have anything to do with mia wenk and maryanne godboldo? nothing, because you chose two extreme cases of when standard policies and procedures, and federal laws were ignored and then you downplayed the heroic attempts of a social worker trying to protect those kids while listening to them plea for help.
But what is unjust in your argument is that you're trying to downplay social workers in general because of what, two people? Do you even have experience with CPS? Are you even aware that social workers do more than work with children? They work with all kinds of people, not just kids.
gruesome horrible mistakes? yes they occur as gruesome horrible mistakes occur in all facets of life, but CPS won't get involved unless there is a reason to be involved. As there was a reason in the powell case. Childern have rights too, which need to be protected which is why CPS exists. CPS wouldn't exist if there weren't horrible parents and families out there. I'm not saying that in the cases of brent and godboldo, that they were bad parents, but they are outliers who were wrongfully targeted. if you wish to make a compelling argument against social workers and their authority, then know your facts, ALL the FACTS, and not what you just wish to know.
redmoth: Whilst I agree in principle and in this case totally, the error as I see it rests with the judge, this man was a suspect/person of interest in the murder of the kids mom. He had already shown signs of abuse of the kids, why was he allowed home visitation?
The judgement assumed that they were dealing with a rational person, and that person will obey the law.
Almost all cases where children are taken into custody whether it be like this or a messy divorce and one parent is stacked against another, (or in this case against the parents of the missing woman) rationality goes out the window, hatred and suspicion takes over, and if there are any screws loose on either side the kids end up being used as weapons. In this case it cost them (the kids) their lives.
Social workers have a thankless job (I could not, nor would not do it) and however much training they get, they are generally trying to do the best for the child as the court sees it. which is the kicker the courts are cold calculating places where money and favors can get a result that maybe defies logic and makes the case so much worse.
To be clear, am I saying judgements can be bought?: Damn right I am, but not in this case, this is incompetence by a judge
Phil-673730 ... and how would the judge have kept this maniac from getting an automatic rifle and going over to the grandparents house and taking them ALL out!!!!
Sooo quick to point the finger ....................
better gun control
In an earlier article she did not work for the state. She worked for a company that's contracted out. It was my understanding that this agency is contracted out to do supervised visits. I once worked for CPS for the state and I had 40 cases. I was only supposed to have 25 and only 4 high level cases. I had 12 high level cases. There is no way you can keep up. I am not saying that all social workers are great but this lady did everything she could do. Blame Mr. Powell as he is the one who chose to kill his kids!
OK media...we get it. The boys died a more gruesome death than originally reported...now we get to hear the social worker's call...
When will this story end? There's no one left, for hell's sake! Quit reporting and providing more and more details. There is absolutely NOTHING anyone can do now. Allow the grieving grandparents of the mother some peace. They are the ones who are left with nothing.
Newscover wrote:
As redmoth suggested:
cantakenomore.....I agree, this will be shoved in our face for a week now and hundreds of people that did not have any connection to the family will start a 'shrine' and leave teddy bears , candles and crap there just in case there is a camera they can play to.
tragedy and more harsher tragedy happening every day. innocents lost like these little boys, hard worker with good intents forced to witness this tragedy, mentally troubled father causing this tragedy to his family, the case worker, and his children. ever wonder about this? this world is getting worse and worse every year. hmmmm, i wonder where we're going?
Phil-673730
Newscover wrote:
As redmoth suggested:
#1.12 - Wed Feb 8, 2012 10:16 AM EST
What is your point Phil???????
There are many ways you can kill people ... this was not spur of the moment!!! It was PLANNED!!!! And could have involved others ..........
Momstheword:
You are SO SO right...but it's more.
Powell's DAD is now suspect in Susan's death; thus, Josh may well have been falsely accused, losing his kids because of it. I dont condone his killing the kids, but I DO understand how it must have felt to lose them AND to really BELIEVE that his children were better off dead then spending their lives with a grandmother who would poison the kids against him - THAT happens ALL too often.
As to social workers...you are correct; unfettered power to further their own agenda, often shaped by their own misery. (not ALL, mind you, but "enough" so that it's not an aberration).
I just read it. Yes, I have to agree with you. The daughter was probably having a reaction to the vaccines-and there are many and various reactions documented-, and they filled her with psychotropic drugs. I imagine MaryAnne (the mother of the girl) was out of her mind with worry. I can fully understand her blockading herself in the house. She has a daughter who is just getting worse under the supposed care of a psychiatrist, etc.
Outrageous. You have to wonder about some of these social workers, and the hierarchy involved. One social worker will make a recommendation, and it's followed through without any corroberation. Not good.
Those those of you throwing a hissy fit because of the subject matter-this is as good a place as any to comment on the culpability and ineffectiveness of social services in general.
I didn't google those two social workers, but I don't see why everyone is gettin at momstheword, though. The courts should have never allowed home visits. I feel so horrible for the social worker and I hate to say this, and I soooo hope she doesn't read any of this ever, becuase I am sure she is racked with guilt already, but those children should never have been allowed to run ahead to the house like that. Especially if you knew you were dealing with a madman. This is so sad. Such a sad story, from beginning to end. What a horrible man, to cause so much pain to so many people, and to tramatize his children by taking them with him to dump their mother. SMDH I am glad he's gone, I'm saddened that he had to take so many lives with him.
This has nothing to do with the social worker. There should have been a nuetral site set up for visitation. Also there should have never been one lone worker allowed to go by herself with 2 children with a crazy man. She should not have even been in the home with the crazy man. He could have killed her at any time. This is the fault of either the laws of the state or the judge. This should have never happeded. This was a possible murderer and possible some type of sexual abuse because he was order for that type of counseling as well that is screwed up.
Working in a positive manner IS NOT in the best interests of the judges, lawyers, social workers, psychologists, wardens, law enforcement officials, (For Profit Prisons (needing to maximize profits for stockholders))etc. (the system, lol, more like, THE RACKET) because their job security, and the jobs outlook for people training in these fields, depends upon there being a plethora of social screw-ups.
Life for society is what society makes it.
Of course it is - because he is not there to defend himself. Just like every time a plane crashes it is pilot error - there is never any other reason for a plane to crash.
Jeff, let's say the grandfather is the murderer. He molested the boys or forced himself on Susan and she was going to report him. His son still covered for him. But given John Powell's own narcissism, killing his boys in such a gruesome manner, it's most likely he killed his wife and disposed of the body during the infamous midnight camping trip.
Also it's unreasonable to lay some kind of "unfettered power to further their own agenda" trip on all social workers. They are largely overworked and underpaid for highly stressful and depressing work.
Especially in this instance where they were obligated by a court mandated visitation order.
The social workers have every bit to with this horror story and every other. I worked with kids in placement and, therefore, had to work with their social workers. Perhaps there are some good dedicated social workers somewhere but I never met any.
What I encountered was arrogance, self-satisfaction, a preening self-importance, and the need for power. Their reasons for being in social work are, by and large, unhealthy. Many (most?) judges follow SW's recommendations without question. Just from what has been in the media, it is clear no rational person would have led those dear little boys to slaughter.
I feel badly for Susan (RIP), her family and her boys (RIP). I agree if visitation had to occur, then the visits should have been at a neutral location, not his home. It's so disappointing that the investigators couldn't come up with anything concrete to get him, especially after all the evidence on his dad came about. Hopefully the police, judges and case workers learn something from this case and every other horrible case that occurs.. BE OVERLY CAUTIOUS, don't worry who your offending. It could save someone's life, especially innocent.
I am discusted that the case worker was more concerned about her car and less about the kids. What is the point in having then there if they aren't there to protect the children. I think that she should be fired and charges brought against her. Her work load had nothing to do with the fact that she did nothing besides knock on the door and listen to the kids scream. Shame on her!!
This story IS about the Social Worker, Griffin-Hall.
Powell destroyed everyone around him. She will definitely be ruined from this horrific event for the rest of her life---she "Bonded with kids".
Social Workers do their job---they are caring people. Why else would they go into this Profession?--There is not much money to be made--it is a sincere attempt to help families out. Ever deal with Social Workers in a Hospital, when an elderly person is dying? They are terrific.
The Social Worker was lucky to get out--the boys were not.
Can anyone imagine the depth of grief the maternal grandparents are going thru--?
Powell should have been aborted before birth. Too bad they did not have the capability at the time, to do an Ultra Sound, to see if this fetus was really a monster about to be born.
"It's reasonable to call Josh Powell's decision to kill himself and his kids a confession to the murder of Susan Powell."
I was pleased to finally see an official say this, since 99.8% of the people who've followed this tragedy from the start already knew it. But I see that the .02% who were wrong still refuse to admit it and still spew out ridiculously outlandish excuses.
Social services had custody. Typically a separate unit within the agency conducts CPS investigations vs. ongoing services--CPS might have been out of the picture by now. Although to can vary, typically judges do not decide where visits take place when children are in custody--that is decided by the agency most of the time. Usually when children are first removed, visits are supervised and do NOT take place except at the agency itself. Many parents have to prove themselves over a very long (usually unreasonably long) period of time before they would be allowed unsupervised visits, or even supervised visits on their own turf. Considering the ongoing case, I'm very surprised somebody did decide on relaxed visitation rules, or even sending an unaccompanied sw to the house without the kids. I'd say the agency endangered its own staff, never mind the children.
Let's not mistake this case as typical. (What the system did to Maryanne Golbodo and her daughter was much more typical, and in fact pretty dreadful/awful. It helped her case that she was fairly prominent anyway). Having said that, a very good solution is open juvenile/family courts (they have different names in different jurisdictions). This step has proven itself where it has been taken, even though social services agencies typically oppose it.
What about the .18 and what do they think?
99.8 + .02 = 99.82........enlighten us with your knowledge of what the other .18 think so we have your full understanding of the situation at hand that you are an expert on.
Social services had custody. Typically a separate unit within the agency conducts CPS investigations vs. ongoing services--CPS might have been out of the picture by now. Although to can vary, typically judges do not decide where visits take place when children are in custody--that is decided by the agency most of the time. Usually when children are first removed, visits are supervised and do NOT take place except at the agency itself. Many parents have to prove themselves over a very long (usually unreasonably long) period of time before they would be allowed unsupervised visits, or even supervised visits on their own turf. Considering the ongoing case, I'm very surprised somebody did decide on relaxed visitation rules, or even sending an unaccompanied sw to the house without the kids. I'd say the agency endangered its own staff, never mind the children.
Let's not mistake this case as typical. (What the system did to Maryanne Golbodo and her daughter was much more typical, and in fact pretty dreadful/awful. It helped her case that she was fairly prominent anyway). Having said that, a very good solution is open juvenile/family courts (they have different names in different jurisdictions). This step has proven itself where it has been taken, even though social services agencies typically oppose it.
Social services had custody. Typically a separate unit within the agency conducts CPS investigations vs. ongoing services--CPS might have been out of the picture by now. Although to can vary, typically judges do not decide where visits take place when children are in custody--that is decided by the agency most of the time. Usually when children are first removed, visits are supervised and do NOT take place except at the agency itself. Many parents have to prove themselves over a very long (usually unreasonably long) period of time before they would be allowed unsupervised visits, or even supervised visits on their own turf. Considering the ongoing case, I'm very surprised somebody did decide on relaxed visitation rules, or even sending an unaccompanied sw to the house without the kids. I'd say the agency endangered its own staff, never mind the children.
Let's not mistake this case as typical. (What the system did to Maryanne Golbodo and her daughter was much more typical, and in fact pretty dreadful/awful. It helped her case that she was fairly prominent anyway). Having said that, a very good solution is open juvenile/family courts (they have different names in different jurisdictions). This step has proven itself where it has been taken, even though social services agencies typically oppose it.
@notax. . . . . What does a better gun control have to do with it. If we had better gun control he would buy a gun illegally somewhere and do them all in. If all guns suddenly disappeared he would go over there and kill them all with gasoline or a baseball bat or a machete. He will kill anybody and everybody plus the kids with whatever is at hand! You gun controllers just don't get it, crazy people like this guy will get their way because THEY DON'T CARE about anything, and the best possible outcome would be if the grandparents had someway to defend themselves and the kids (quickly) from this monster. Now, what way might that possibly be?
Is it really necessary to tell this tragic story over and over again? To actually release the phone call of the social worker or even Josh Powell before he committed this act? What is it that can be found in such things? A confirmation of the horrific nature of such a crime? Give it rest media. It was an unspeakable event that took place and there is no need to rewind the tape. Typical American media. Drama-loving queens 'till the end.
Unless of course the reason he killed his wife to begin with was because the Grandfather (who is under investigation for child pornography), was molesting the children and the wife threatened to report his father to police. After she was murdered, and the investigation began, this religious zealot realized that it was just a matter of time before they figured out what motivated this sick, religious nut ... so he decided the best action was one played out by zealots over and over again. Murder suicide, a pact between bible poisoned freaks and their freakish god.
In that case, a child predator is still out there, and this story would need to be examined over and over again until there's enough evidence to put that sick bastard grandfather in prison ... or allow his own likely genetic zealotry to handle it for us.
DetroitMark, uhm, where did religion come into this? Did I miss something? Or are you just yet another "new intellectual" atheist bigot that assumes these nutjobs are "religious" because they came from Utah? Just askin'.
Or maybe you're just a troll... in which case, PLONK.
I agree CC, I haven't heard religion mentioned once in this story. And DetroitMark, what the heck is "genetic zealotry?"
I do suspect the grandfather's involvement at some level. He's already been caughtwith child pornography, stalking and photographing children and making unwarranted sexual advances on Susan Powell.
If he is a serial molester there's a possibility he may have molested his son and grandchildren.
And of course all children have nothing to fear from Reverend, right?
shouldn't the person conducting the supervised visit be more capable of protecting their charges than standing on a porch calling 911?
Slim.... the media knows what sells newspapers. This story sells newspapers. This story will probably receive more comments then the average story.
The only other option than a Free Press would be a State run press... obviously not an option in the USA and for good reason.
Your only recourse is to look away and not read it. Asking the media to sell less newspapers is like asking Exxon to sell less gasoline. Not gonna happen.
Slimpickins- Really? That sort of backyard mentality is exactly why we don't have adequate legislation to protect children- if it aint in my backyard I don't want to hear about it- just isn't cutting it. We need to change how we deal with crimes against children and women. Bottom line is you need to look at it. Long and hard.
This had nothing to do with religion, it had to do with sex and evil. I think Josh Powell's family needs to bring out the whole truth about their upbringing, including his ex-wife, Terri Powell who took off to Arizona how many years back. I think they know much more about what weird stuff went on and it needs to be brought to the forefront. Also, why wasn't he under police surveillance after taking out his life savings? That is a huge red flag and it occurred prior to the murders. I also can't figure out why in the world he was still being granted this visits when he'd just been to court the week prior and they determined he had to undergo an evaluation? I think the Utah police did an awful job here, he should have been behind bars by now, and the social worker sounds like a ditz on the 911 calls. She didn't even have their address for goodness sake, to give the dispatcher. People need to wake up and smell the coffee and get with the program here. Justice has not been served.
Bigbadda - what do you suggest? That social workers be issued tanks or battering rams so they can bust down doors on the off chance that something like this happens? I'm not sure what other capabilities you expect that she should have had. Super powers perhaps? Honestly, even if the police had gotten there within minutes, I'm not sure if they could have stopped this horrific act by the father.
My first thought was why the father had any access what so ever to the child. A suspected murderer of his wife, a confession from the boys, a perverted grandfather......Why wasn't the psychological screening done before thay gave visitation rights? Hind sight, maybe. But, there was clear evidence that he might have been full of rage and mentally unstable.
Therese, the answer to you question is the same answer asked when I was forced to let my deranged husband take our son for "visitation" even after he had threatened to kill him. The court ruled that I was trying to turn my son against him and, this is the part I couldn't grasp, "Mr. ---- has legal rights as the father of the child.."
Of course, knowing the danger I didn't let him have him and so was charged with contempt of court. This began a real battle which put us in even more danger. So the court appointed a child psychologist to evaluate my son. It proved I was right. But the court still found a way to endanger my child and awarded my crazy ex SUPERVISED visitation. I was treated as a vindictive woman using my child to get even with my ex by everyone involved except the child psychologist who wrote in his report that I'd done everything in my power to protect my son without telling him what a creep his father is. I'd done a wonderful job of teaching him kindness and gentleness in spite of the extreme violence he'd witnessed his whole life.
YET IN SPITE OF ALL WITNESSES AND THIS REPORT THE COURT RULED THAT "MR.--- HAS LEGAL RIGHTS..."
That's why this sick man was allowed to see his kids. Sucks, doesn't it!
This happens more than the public realizes, a parent is able to have visitation when they are a danger to the child. I do not know what could have been done in this case, Powell had a mission and was going to accomplish it one way or another. He probably would have went to the in-laws if he did not receive the kids. It is sad but the reality is that some people are evil and should not be able to have children.
No, nothing like that. But these women with hyphenated names are generally real ba££ busters and I would have though she would have been more aggressive.
I agree with the coments here that the system failed. Why was this father even allowed to see the boys supervised or not. Why were the police so slow to respond. I understand the woman wasnt cooperative with the address but for god sakes this could have been avoided. These kind of stories with children involved really piss me off!
Henry J., et al., Please quit armchair quarterbacking and stop making sweeping generalizations. You or I couldn't have done anymore than the social worker did (no matter what her name is). We are talking mere minutes. He killed his kids with a hatchet as soon as they set foot through the door. Done and done. Monster.
The house next to mine burned to the ground in less than ten minutes. It was an accident, no one was home, it had nothing to do with this case, but I couldn't do anymore than get my garden hose hooked up and call 911 in the same few, measley moments that this caseworker had. Mere seconds was all she had. She was totally helpless against that monster; and she was darned lucky he didn't kill her, too.
She will have nightmares for years over this. I wish her peace, but I doubt that it will come.
The fact of the matter is that the courts ordered visitation. The kids were taken to their "visitation" with their father, and he murdered them. If we had a vision into the future, maybe something could be done, but most would waste that visionary capability on lottery numbers. Hindsight is 20/20. The problem comes from so-called parental rights and the ignorance of judges who think it's just an "us against them; he said, she said" procedure. There are crazy people in this world. Lots of them. Expect to see more of this type of crime; as you can't re-kill the dead, horrid perpetrators; and these murderers plan to die anyway by their own suicidal hand.
zapper, I couldn't agree more! Nicely said.
I agree with Zapper and would like to add for all those who say he shouldn't have had visitation. You can't take away custody or visitation from every person whose spouse disappears or runs off just because they are a person of interest and their in laws claim they are concerned. It is so easy to judge this situation now that it has come to a horrendous conclusion. All involved are in my prayers!
Henry Jekyl - so women with hyphenated names are now your target? Totally moronic. Under these circumstances, the visitation should have been at a social center or counselor's office - not at this man's home. However, there is still no guarantee he would not have shown up with a gun. This man was clearly feeling the walls closing in and knew there was no way out.
Zapper speaks well for the segment of thinking people on this board. Folks should just point to your post in response to crazy, illogical ones.
Law enforcement dispatchers all over the country are working with outdated equipment and inflexible rules. The idea of the dispatcher having to type log entries while dealing with life or death situations is ridiculous. Practically every dispatch center has a system where the conversation between the dispatcher and the caller are recorded for review. One does get the impression that the dispatcher did not see the call as being that serious. As for the caseworker: how could she not know the address she was at? Maybe she was in a state of shock. At any rate not anyone or anything could have prevented what happened. This whole episode is a real tragedy for all involved.
jameso545 - agreed. Even if police had been dispatched immediately, they had no way to know until she mentioned gasoline that there was a potential for fire. And it is highly unlikely that the police would have arrived in less than 6 minutes. Even if police had they arrived, with the gas pour and the death scene already set up, the cops would have only added themselves to the death toll. A tragic loss of innocent life. To all the suicidal folks reading these murder suicide articles (and we've had many murder suicides these past ten yrs) pls get it through your heads that we will be much more likely to mourn your loss if you don't take others w/ you.
slim pickens;
Ignorance is bliss (for you). I prefer to here the story so that we may learn and prevent this in the future.
My heart just breaks for those children and their mom. The judge will have to live with his decision to allow supervised vists forever. If there was any concern that those children could be in harms way, he should have never been allowed him near them. There was obivous concern on the judges part and the grandparents who have voiced over and over again that he was capable of something like this. There are just no words.... I pray the boys and their mom can rest in peace and that bastard is in hell for enternity.
Why, Cheryl ?
First, Josh has never been accused of murdering his wife; he was just a person of interest; LESS now, because the suspicion is shifted to Josh's DAD.
SO, if there EVER was a reason to limit visitation at ALL, there SURE wasnt cause to keep him from SUPERVISED visitation.
It is attitudes LIKE YOURS, convict FIRST...BECAUSE it's the dad, that result in the taking of kids from their fathers (and the fathers going ballistic over it), with NO due process.
You are OBVIOUSLY a (butch) man hater.
Jeff: I'm very much for father's rights, but if you can't see the red flags waving all around John Powell you've become deluded by your ideology.
Given the gruesome circumstances of his son's murders there can be little doubt of his guilt. Perhaps it was helping his father dispose of his wife's body, but it was still accessory to murder.
He's certainly no martyr as you imply.
To Jeff... You obviously have issues that are too close to this situation... That man should have never been able to see those children for a very long time.. while they did a thorough investigation on him... I am sure this is apparent to the judge overseeing this case now.
And, REV....I'm very impressed that, calling yourself a "Rev", "(reverand") you must have divine sight; No one's even arrested him, but you've already convicted him.
Wish I'd have asked you who'd win the Superbowl BEFORE I bet.
Yes, you're right Jeff. Clearly there here is an example where a man didn't nothing wrong. Oh wait, he hacked and burned his children alive?
It's not a perfect world where men get the short end of the benefit of a doubt. But because of cases like this one, I say it's a cold fact that men are more violent than woman. (generally speaking. I apologize to the exceptions, but we can't rule the world on exceptions or we have no rules)
NO, Tiger:
You drive a man far enough, he can snap and do anything - THEN you use THAT as "see ? he MUST have been crazy all along". You look at "effect" and ignore "cause".
..because, as we ALL know, NO ONE gets wrongfully convicted (by 12 "reasonable" people - oh, WAIT ! he wasnt CHARGED, much less convicted, but why let facts get in the way ?) . NO one has EVER been sentenced to life (or death) only to be freed decades later (whoops ! -sorry, my bad)
@tiger345: "...it's a cold fact that men are more violent than woman."
With child abuse cases that's not true. Natural mothers are actually more violent than natural fathers, especially when the child is younger than five. According to the CDC American women kill more of their own children than any other mothers in the industrialized world. A 25% increase since 1985.
Men are more sexually abusive which is the only kind of child abuse you hear about in the media. Even in this regard female caregivers and relatives, not necessarily natural mothers, are responsible for as much as 30% of intrafamilial child sexual abuse.
@ Jeff...you are correct that anyone driven far enough can do things out of character. The fact that these boys were starting to talk about the details of their mothers disapearance tells me daddy was afraid of going to jail based on what was already being suspected. If you followed this case from the beginning everything he did was suspect because it nothing sounded or looked right. That is how investigators have to work...the guilty party usually has spent time planning on how to keep from getting caught vs. sending out announcements.
Jeff,
Don't you understand that it doesn't matter if he was convicted legally in a court?? HE convicted himself by KILLING his boys! You don't really want justification for this child killer do you? I am not being rude or trying to argue with you. I am just saying even though they couldn't prove he killed his wife he still deserves to go to hell for what he did to those poor boys who were innocent and couldn't defend themselves against their own father. He was supposed to protect his sons' but instead he did just the opposite and took their lives?! That should be enough of a "guilty" conviction for anyone...
Religion was never mentioned, that I recall, so anyone who mentions it now, is putting their own spin on the reasons for the events. What the hell differrence would religion make in the case of a pedophile anyway? There are so damn many creeps out there anymore, it's impossible to know where to let your kids go, play, sleep over, or even visit for an hour. I rememeber my carefree days as a child in the 50s and 60s, compared to what my 10 year old grandson must live with now. @!$%#, it really pisses me off. Sorry for the language but sometimes, it's all you can say.
@Jeff...Why are you so tightly wound on this issue?? Powell has appeared as nothing more than a piece of crap since the start of this case and should never have had visitation, whether supervised or not, until he had been psychologically profiled and cleared.
My wife and I have now had custody of our grandchildren for 5 years and for good reason.
I had no trust of Powell since the onset of this case, and can find no earthly reason for this judge to not have paid heed to the warning signs. His actions regarding visitation show no grasp of the situation and no reason for him to be on the bench for any more cases of this nature.
Jeff-573598....Your comments and rage regarding this case are very disturbing. Josh Powell was a person of interest because he was the last to see his wife alive, his actions of taking his children on a midnight camping trip in below freezing temps on the last day his wife was ever seen again. I noticed you have posted "what did Susan Powell do to provoke this"?? I think you need serious counseling. I believe that if you have a wife/children, that you are likely to do harm to them...because of your statements, it could imply that you see justification and even empathy for Josh Powell and even feel that Susan Powell some how did something to cause this situation. Murder should never be a solution, it's a big world full of people and divorce, while it can be difficult is always the better option for everyone. There are no winners in this story. Do you realize you sound crazy with your rants. Seek help.
Here is a case for supervised visits taking place on neutral territory. If they were having to meet in some public building instead of his home, he wouldn't have had the whole horrific scene set like he did. Such a sad situation. I think it would be wise for the safety of the social worker as well. He could just as easily killed the social worker and taken off with the boys. I would have been terrified too.
End, well put. Jeff sounds a bit scary, if you happen to be his spouse or children.
Enough people here are disturbed by Jeff's unwillingness to admit that he was wrong all along, I won't go into that because that's obvious. What I do want to point out is that the ONLY reason he was never arrested and accused of killing Susan was because they couldn't find her body. Trying to convict someone of murder when you don't have a body is virtually a get away free card. I seem to remember the distance he traveled on his 'midnight camping trip' was over 100 miles, and the boys were unable, in the dark, to remember exactly where it was that "Daddy stopped, he and Mommy got out, and Mommy never came back." That's a lot of desert to find a body in. If she's ever found, it will be an accidental find by a hunter or camper someday. I think the only way out for people like Jeff is that it IS possible that Stephen Powell (his father) MIGHT have killed Susan instead of Josh, but even so, it was Josh who got rid of the body on that 'camping trip', so he MIGHT be an accessory to the murder.
Also (to counter another conspiracy theory) the boys speaking about "Mommy's in the trunk." was completely spontaneous, not while they were being questioned by investigators or their grandparents. The only question they were asked was after they said that, "Why is Mommy in the trunk?" And they (thankfully) didn't know. But most of us (apparently not all) are smarter than a 4 year old, and we KNOW why she was in the trunk.
Michelle..."He could just as easily killed the social worker and taken off with the boys. I would have been terrified too."
Good point. Still evil, but more rational, and would show SOME caring for his boys. But sooner or later, he'd be found, and killing the social worker to make his getaway would also be akin to admitting guilt in killing his wife. It may have been one of his thoughts, though.
This story makes me want to vomit!!! Clearly the state of Washington has failed this family in the worse way possible. An entire family is dead!!! Why was the dad not charged w/ the murder of his wife? He was clearly a person of interest (supect)??? He should've been locked up and maybe his children would still be alive!!! Also, the social worker, how could she just let him just take the kids???? Wasn't she supposed to be protecting the children??? Isan't that why they are called "supervised visits"? Washington, shame on you!!!!!
He locked the door in the social worker's face, after shutting it. After being in the fost-adopt position, I know social workers can't force themselves in without a search warrant. I also know that if she broke down the door, there was a good chance she'd be dead too. As for forgetting the address, she panicked, and the adrenalin and everything else running through her body at the moment made her lose track of it. it sounds like the police officers' fault and the 911 operators' faults more than the social worker's. If they took her seriously, which they didn't, from what it sounds like, they could have been there in minutes.
Dale Smith in Orlando is the same slimeball. The mom of his kids Michelle Parker conveniently "went missing" the day she dropped them off at his place. His ex wife also met with "an accident".
http://www.examiner.com/missing-persons-in-national/missing-fl-mom-s-ex-charged-with-domestic-battery-wife-dies-of-brain-injury
I have followed this case for the past 2 years as some others and I have to agree with JEFF on some of this. Just because I felt Josh probably had something to do with Susan's disappearance, his rights to his children can't be taken away. His right to have custody was only taken away once Gpa was arrested for child porn. Not finding Susan's body was NOT the only reason Josh wasn't arrested. Arrests have been made plenty of times with no body, but they clearly didn't have enough other evidence to charge him so they also didn't have just cause to not allow him to even visit with his children under supervision. Of course you can say now that they shouldn't have. That is a no brainer after the fact. You can not go around taking visitation rights away from everyone attached to a missing person case or everyone whose estranged in laws think they are evil.
People like Jeff obviously don't think very clearly. Even with the chance (however small) that he did not murder his wife, he became a murderer the minute he killed his children. And there is no justification for that. So, either way, this evil man was a murderer. The end.
The kids were starting to say that mommy had been in the car trunk on the day of their "camping trip" and then she disappeared after leaving the car with daddy. Is that not enough proof of his involvement in Susan's death for you, Jeff? You seriously think children would make such a serious accusation? They must have quite a vivid imagination to make-up such a story, because no child would pull something like that out of thin air, not at that age.
@tiger. . . . You pit men against women with your statement but those men you talk about are more violent toward other men. Plus, those men that you say are exceptions are really approximately 47% of all men in this country, that's right "tiger" close to 50% of the men in this country are passive and a little over 50% are aggressive (the ones you talk about). The aggressive ones rape, murder, assault, rob banks and choose to fight at the drop of a hat. I and a lot of other men in this country are not like that, we don't start fights, we don't beat our wives/girlfriends, and we don't set our children on fire. So, don't go shooting your sexist mouth off until you got your facts strait. Could you imagined the torrential down pour of criticism I would get if I had made some stereotypical opinion about women!!! So there.
I'm really not sure what the Social Worker could have done. I'm pretty sure someone on the right will now start in with, "If only she had been carrying a gun" I'm sure he would have hacked his kids to death before anyone got through that door. Sometime's you can't stop a determined individual from doing something awful.
Alloplis, ? Take your meds. You rant is totally delusional. You fixation on guns worries me. I checked just to make sure you don't even live in the same state as me. Get some help before it's too late.
oldman, you call that a rant? I don't agree with the gun thing being brought up but her point is still valid about a determined individual and even if I didn't, that posting is far from ranting. If you want ranting, see some of jeff's comments above.
Social workers are some of the completely least critical thinkers and most gullible people I know. I am sure they meant well, and would not want this to happen -- they are just out to lunch on the presence of danger. Where were the procedures here? She let the kids "run ahead!!" They were so lax!! They gave this guy an easy opportunity to hurt the kids, and he sure took it. He was an evil monster, but he was smarter than the judge and the social workers who were supposed to be protecting his kids. Why allow visitation to the home of a suspected murderer in the first place? Even if she were inside, he could have shot them, etc, right in front of her. Should have been a neutral place, like a courthouse, if at all.
"She let the kids run ahead"? Should she have had them in ball and chains? Never had a kid dart off even after "the talk"? Wow. And I sure as hell am not from "the right" allopolis-nor the left either, but a gun might have made the difference.
Disgusted,
How can you blame the social worker? The judge ordered "supervised visitation"
He planned to kill them, and it could/would have happened ANYWHERE! And he could have (probably would have) taken MORE people with him if it had been somewhere else!
This poor social worker will be traumatized for the rest of her life!
Blame the father, not the social worker!
I am appalled people are blaming the social worker. You're just as sick. This guy was PSYCHOTIC! If there is any other blame to go around, look at the system that ALLOWED Josh Powell to have visits, period!
Agreed.
He should not have had visitation rights without law enforcement there until completely exonerated from the death of his wife. He still remained the prime suspect and therefore an unknown variable.
This will change the way visitation rights are carried out.
I was a CPS worker a long time ago and all supervised visits were done at a neutral location. I don't know what the laws are in Washington but we never did supervised visits in the home! As far as social workers being gullible and not being critical thinker, how many social workers do you know "disgusted taxpayer?" Don't lump all social workers into one box.
Hey! What a terrible thing to say about social workers! This worker may well have been a very caring and competent person who was caught up in a terrible situation. I feel badly for her! Although she was physically safe, I'm sure she will carry emotional scars with her forever.
The father was a sick murderer. No matter where the visitation took place, he likely would have killed them sooner or later. That he didn't let the social worker into the house saved her life. If they had to meet in a park, or even a restaurant, the boys, the social worker and maybe several other innocent people may have died. I think he did this to keep the truth from being known: he killed his wife because she found out about his father. He killed the boys to keep them from telling the truth about his father, and his killing their mother.
I understand that with the increase of the population, there is a corresponding increase in the number of demented people, but it seems to be reaching an epidemic proportion. You can put this down, but I believe the abundance of horror movies, slasher films, violent games and tv shows, is having an effect on all of this. At the very least, it is dehumanizing, and numbing us to violence.
Maybe treat the kids like proisoners. They were so fearfull of this "monster" that thwey ran in to see him. Yet all of these "experts" think that everyone should have seen the warning signs.
Meet in a neutral place? What's that? where could they meet that wouldn't allow a crazy person to kill the kids? Maybe some of the more clueless think that the government should monitor anyone a bit off 24/7. A second case worker? They don't have enough now to handle the cases.
What a bunch of monday morning quarterbacks. He has been going through this for three years yet everyone thinks there were signs!!!!
This is the kind of stuff people who work for Social services have to deal with, albeit this is a much more hard core scenario. She bares zero blame for this situation, she was doing her job. If she went in first, the kids would still be dead and she would have had her head chopped off as well. You are probably the same guy who wants her to either lose her civil service job, or get her benefits reduced or to pay for her own pension yet now you want her to fight off the kids father to the death lol. This is in response to Disgusted Taxpayer BTW
To begin with if the CPS worker had of held their hands and walked through the door with them she would have died too. It's as simple as that. He had a hatchet and apparently had already soaked the place down with gasoline. He knew exactly what he was going to do. If she had of made it in that house you know he would have killed her first. It just wasn't her time to die.
The boys were ages 5 and 7. Boys that age run everywhere. To hold her hands and walk quietly with her to the door? What world do you live in?
Digusted Taxpayer-
1) The judge determines visitation, not the social worker. The judge is the one who ordered supervised visitation and decided that the supervised visitation should be at the home. The social worker does not make that decision.
2) The procedure was to bring the children to the home and observe them with their father. She parked the car at the home and the children got out and ran inside. They were 5 and 7, were they supposed to hold her hand during the walk from the driveway to the front door? They were old enough to unbuckle themselves, open the door, and run to their father, who they were probably excited to see. She was only a few steps behind them when the door was slammed in her face, it's not like the kids were in the house and she was still getting out of the car.
3) Our legal system specifically states "innocent until proven guilty". The father was a suspect in the mother's death, but he had not even been arrested. The courts and social workers were aware that something was not right with him, and denied the father custody and ordered supervised visits. However, they cannot take away his right to see his children based on suspicions. There was no history of abuse with these two little boys and he had not been arrested or convicted of murder. There was no legal reason to deny him from seeing the boys.
4) The social worker not gullible. She was very smart and recognized the situation as extremely dangerous right away. She did not waste time trying to get into the house when she was locked out, instead she immediately called 911 for help, and desperately tried to tell the 911 dispatcher how serious this was.
The social worker is actually the last person who should be blamed here. If you really want to blame someone other than the father, blame the judge who ordered visitation (and legally, he was correct) or blame the police for not being able to get enough evidence to arrest the father or even blame the 911 dispatcher for not recognizing this as an emergency (not like the police could have done anything at that point). Don't blame the social worker for doing her job and doing the right thing in a horrible situation.
Where do you read the kids unbuckled themselves and ran to the door. I read that he took the kids from her and slammed the door in her face.
Comment # 5.7 deleted for death wishing social workers.
Don't, Jeff-573598. You are suspended for a week for violating rule # 5 of the Code of Honor.
Sally gets two thumbs up from Ken. Well done, ma'am.
OldManYoungEyes said -
"I understand that with the increase of the population, there is a corresponding increase in the number of demented people, but it seems to be reaching an epidemic proportion. You can put this down, but I believe the abundance of horror movies, slasher films, violent games and tv shows, is having an effect on all of this. At the very least, it is dehumanizing, and numbing us to violence."
You forgot about the rampant and gratuitous sex. But you are absolutely right! As the late great Earl Nightingale said (after making the cause/effect of what we think and how it affects our lives his main study) - "All of the greatest teachers, philosophers, and religious teachers throughout history have disagreed on many different subjects, but on this ONE idea they were all in complete agreement - that we become and attract into our lives what we think about.
Thank you, Sally. Can you also get Jeff-537598 some serious mental help? He seems to want to blame everyone else except for the perpetrator of this horrendous crime.
I feel terrible for the social worker, who had to witness these children that she cared about so deeply, being smothered by flames while she was left in her car, powerless. She heard their screams, and little did she know that was the last time she would hear anything coming out of the mouth of these boys. It's bad enough to hear about this but to live it? I wouldn't want to wish what this social worker went through even on my worse enemy! She will have nightmares for years to come of the screams while envisioning the home going up in flames, even though it wasn't her fault that the first responders could not arrive in time, nor was she responsible in allowing this monster to have visitation with his children.
The judge really dropped the ball in allowing him to have visitation at his home after seeing all the red flags. Yes, this monster is 100% at fault for this tragedy, but the judge only enabled him to be able to commit a crime of this magnitude by not putting the children's best interest first. Instead, the judge was worried about not violating the rights of this criminal by denying him visitation. Criminals like him don't deserve the privilege of being in the lives of their children.
@francesca:
I can see how the boys running to greet their father could be viewed by the social worker as them being excited to see him. And also not fearing him.
Powell was completely deceptive and manipulative.
Even a dog whose master beats it, runs to greet him....
francesca - Finally, a well thought out and well written post. Bravo! Everyone is so quick to Monday morning quarterback. Everyone wants to find someone to blame, like the judge, the social worker, etc. But the facts of the matter are that the father was named a person of interest in the disappearance of his wife, not a suspect, and that was only because he was the last (known) person to have seen her. If someone else killed her, like her father-in-law for instance, her husband wouldn't even have been the last to see her, much less be her killer. He was never even named as a suspect. There is a reason he was never charged, much less convicted - there wasn't evidence to do that. You can't convict a person of murder because his wife disappears. There has to be some kind of evidence against the person accused. As far-fetched as the midnight camping trip sounds, it just might be true, especially in light of the children's statements about it. And if the father-in-law wanted to kill her, or he made a pass at her that ended in tragedy, wouldn't that be the perfect opportunity, with her whole family out of the house? It's possible that the maternal grandparents, determined to gain custody of the kids, made up the part about, "Mommy's in the trunk." If one of the kids actually said that, law enforcement or the court would have had those kids in therapy with a counselor trained to work with children, to see what they really knew. Caring grandparents would have seen to it, even if law enforcement didn't, particularly in that it was their daughter who went missing. The maternal grandparents had a vested interest in stating that the children made the statement about Mommy being in the trunk, but not wanting anyone to follow up on it with the kids, because they wanted their son-in-law blamed for her disappearance/death, rightly or wrongly, and they wanted custody of the kids. I think law enforcement needs to take a good, hard look at the maternal grandparents and the paternal grandfather in this case. A lot of attention is being focused on the father, and well it should be, since he is a cold blooded killer, but I don't think the story ends there.
She called BEFORE they were killed. She did everything possible. She could not read his mind before she handed over the kids. they had visited him before and gotten out alive.
What I can't get over is that they sent a single woman social worker into the house with a man who is already suspected of killing his wife and taking the kids. If this guy was suppose to have visitation rights, they should have sent them with something like two huge armed guards someplace other than his home. This is simply a no brainer.
@ ItsJustMe123,
Re: why send in a "single woman social worker"?
Why, so we can listen to clueless idiots like you complain that we are "wasting" taxpayer dollars to send 2 people to do a job that needs 1 person to accomplish 99.9% of the time? As a former CPS Social Worker, I can tell you first hand that protective services workers are trained and aware of their surroundings and the potential danger that may arise. Note how quickly the SW was on the phone to 911? This is what that job is all about and I can tell you another thing; there aren't enough workers to do the job now, much less ask the public for the funding to pay more. CPS is one of the most hated fields to work in. The majority of the public is grossly misinformed about what their job entails. I can say this; the worker was DOING HER JOB as ordered by the court!
ya'all had this monster in custody and you let him go !! thats the courts fault.if i was the judge i would of maimed and torture that bastard til he talked !you know damn well he killed his wife.its obvious just look what he did to the boys.!! i am so frikkin angry at our justice system !!
I'm glad that you were not the judge. Your anger is seriously misplaced. We have laws for a reason and they were followed in this case. No one could have predicted that Josh Powell would blow up his boys. The only person to blame for this tragedy is him, just him.
Wow, I hope nobody appoints or elects you for judge.
Tnayew------ Well put !
I feel so sorry for that social worker.
Me too, sounds like she was trying to help these poor kids and could not convince the 911 operators to send help sooner...however even if the fire department had literally been right there, they still likely would have died considering all the gas he had in the house...
Another article said that the fire trucks were there within 3 minutes because the firehouse was a block away. That's probably why he soaked the house in gasoline. Why do people make such dumb comments??
I feel sorry for everybody impacted by this case, other than Josh Powell. He should have offed himself a long time ago and spared everybody a lot of misery.
It'll only take about 50 years of medication and daily counseling before this poor gal will stop seeing those images and questioning what on God's earth she could have done to save those kids. I think maybe the press should stop publishing this story every second of every day now.
Don't worry, some other tragedy will occur and they'll be on that like vultures on fresh roadkill.
Rest in Peace children.
It's over, let them rest - all the blogging in the world will not change anything
We're hoping that our cries of injustice will be heard so that this does not happen again. If a parent is required to have supervised visitation, it means that some bells are going off and should be heard.
The whole situation was just beaucoup dinky dau. I agree, let them rest.
The blame is on Josh Powell. There are plenty of fathers fighting for custody of their children and they don't kill them. This is a flaw in the law. A person named a suspect in a murder should not have legal rights to see their children unless and until they are cleared. There was a case of a mother who took pictures of her kids after a bath and some of the photos showed the kids wearing only under wear. Those kids were kept from their mother for months until they cleared her of any wrongdoing. She was not formally accused of anything. She was not charged with anything. She simply took pictures of her kids dancing around in their own bedroom getting ready for bed. So how in the world were these two boys allowed to be in Josh Powell's house? Our judicial system mollycoddles suspects and criminals to insure their rights. These kids had rights too and their rights were not protected. They were sacrificed to insure Josh Powell's rights. No, he was not convicted, but there was enough troubling things going on in that house to justify keeping the kids away. The social worker walked into a trap. She had no way of knowing what he had planned to do that day. She could have been a victim of this murderer as well if she had gotten into the house.
In this country you are "innocent until proven guilty", sad, but you can't have it both ways.
I don't know where, or how long ago, the other case you talked about was, but that is very rare. Thirty years ago, that type of stuff did happen, but not so much now. It really takes a lot to have children removed from the home. I ran a child care center for years and you wouldn't believe the stories! We MUST report "suspected abuse" and rarely does anything come of it! Florida!
Yes "innocent until proven guilty" applies in a court of law however just like other suspected murderers if there is enough evidence (physical and/or circumstancial) to believe the person committed the crime they can be arrested and held in jail until the trial (i.e. Casey Anthony). It appears the problem here is the investigators were still trying to build their case and didn't have enough evidence to arrest him. Suspicion is not grounds for an arrest. The only way they were able to get his kids away from him to begin with was because of the situation with the f'd up grandfather which was unrelated to the death of Susan. Legally, there wasn't any way to prevent visitation and had he passed the psycho-sexual evaluation he potentially could have regained custody. This is absolutely tragic and my heart aches for these children however we should all be thankful our legal system works the way it does or else our children could be taken away from us just because of someone's suspicion. With that said, it seems there was at least enough circumstancial evidence to keep his children away from him while the investigation was ongoing. Something more needs to be done to protect children.
Come on. He was a "person of interest" in a missing person case and his kids DID NOT want to see him. Does this take a PHD in psych to say "hey we better send two people with the kids, and one of them better be a man" because this poor gal could not have done a thing to prevent this. It's the social worker management system that is at fault here. Get some brains. Make sure if kids are visiting a psycho that you can stop whatever insanity occurs. She could not. This was just wrong. It didn't need to happen. If she'd been paired with a strong man (feminists back off, there are kids involved), he could have broken down the door and she could have grabbed the kids. Now, there probably would have been violence but the incident would have been interrupted and the kids would still be alive. Just common sense.
Unfortunately, it has been my experience that DCS takes children they shouldn't and leave the ones who are in actual danger. I know first-hand. Sending prayers to the social worker and the Cox family.
@Kgirl, what you just said is not common sense. A strong man could not have prevented this. What would he have done differently than the social worker? Breaking down the door? You have been watching too many cop shows. And you must have missed the part where it said that they boys ran to their father, so it would seem that they did want to see him. The blame for this tragedy is Josh Powell and only him.
Realistic woman? Pretty naive actually, Kgirl is a lot closer to the truth. The guy, Josh was a suspected murderer, with issues, and was ordered to undergo a phsyco-sexual evaluation. All here, knew that they were dealing with a loose canon. The visit should have been at social services, where Josh would have had to go through security. Then, if he came in guns blazing, it would have been his fault (and it was for the most part), but there would have at least been a chance of someone there to stop him and protect the children. No, they sent a social worker to do a job that she was NOT equipped to potentially deal with and sadly, the children paid the ultimate price for that poor, foolish, ignorant decision on her part and that of the judge (as well as law enforcement, whom daily protect the courts, AND assist in carrying out court orders (even ridiculous ones) when the conditions warrant it, as this case clearly did, by all measures. You play with fire, you get burned, literally on every side of this case, which is both a tragedy and a disgrace.
The next option, other than having a visit at Social Services, would be to have one at a neutral, public location, with law enforcement present. The last, and WORST possible option, is an in home visit, where you'd have no idea as to what your in store for. Option #1 and #2 take away a potential perpetrators ability to plan and have many unknowns. The 3rd option that was chosen and tragically followed led to the horrible end that we heard of, an older woman, helplessly calling 911, not knowing exactly where she's at, and unable to help those kids. It sounds sexist, but an under-trained, ill equipped woman, with possibly only a purse to dissuade a would be criminal is ridiculous at best. You, a piston, semi auto packing, well trained Lady, that would work. Had that been the case, there would have likely been one casualty, that being Josh. When you escort in such situations, you lead, to keep things under control, any well trained Law Enforcement officer knows that. A baby sitter lets the kids run, not knowing what she doesn't know. Sadly, the social worker here was no better than that. People in authority, having custody of children, really do have to think before they act (kids don't know the what ifs, they don't have the experience to know such things). Adults, working in official capacities, really should know better and hopefully, people learn form these tragic mistakes. Keep saying, "Oh, there's nothing that could have been done differently, all blame goes on Josh", well, just because they say it, doesn't make it so. If they don't learn from these mistakes, they'll be made again, senselessly, and other kids will perish at the hands on well intended, know nothing, slow learning "adults". Wake up and learn from this tragedy! In the mean time, please do not take a job as a social worker, judge, or law enforcement personnel.
Well, then type this up and send it to your Congressperson or Senator. But sure to keep in the part about the "the undertrained and ill equipped woman, with possibly only a purse", they will particularly enjoy that. It's easy to say what could have been done, after the fact. Fact is, Josh Powell was going to do something like this. The famliy feared it and it came true.
independent voice, do you really think there is "security" at your local social services?? I highly doubt it! And who will foot the bill, for all of these extra measures you suggest? Social Services are the first place "cuts" occur!
Monday morning quarterbacking helps NO ONE!
AND, no one to blame but Josh Powell! He could have and would have done it ANYWHERE!
Get OFF the high horse!
Our laws MUST be changed to protect innocent people. Laws seemed to be so bias as to protect the criminals and their rights. This case should have been solved immediately when washed up blood on the carpet in the house with two fans going was discovered, then Josh takes takes two tiny children in a blizzard at midnight in the desert to make smoors, and having one kid at that time saying, "Mommy's in the cave hunting crystals".
I haven't read of a case that disgusts me more about our laws than this one (except Casey Anthony!).
I agree with you JG-895068 Whoever investigated the disappearance did they immediately search the vehicle including the truck? Did they search the home right away? Did they seriously listen to the statements the children made at school and the drawing they explained? It appears to me much was missed in the beginnings. I also am totally saddened and disgusted as I like you, feel there is way to much bias to protect possible criminals. If all was thoroughly investigated, the car, the house, etc in the very beginning if one is not guilty they would not mind it being done at all, they would want as much investigation as possible to rule out any and all possibilities, including themselves. I do hope whoever is in charge of investigations in that county learns a great lesson from this. My heart cries for these innocent children.
Judy: Just like Michelle Parker in Orlando. The police did not search the boyfriends car, home right away.
So where is the thing about the hundred or so children in LA, California that just recently made the news where the teacher(s) was (were) arrested for lewd acts? I noticed that is no longer in the news. I thought we cared so much about children? Guess the social service industry is really getting a boost from this one. There are just as many good families harmed by wanton abuse by this industry.
its all about what your suppose to know Moms (theword) not what it is!
Since this is not the first post you have about social workers, wondering if you have first hand experience with them moms? How is the CPS getting a boost from this? This is a horrible act and I guarantee that those workers were all devastated. Just like any job, there are good ones and bad ones. They don't go into that field for the money. They go into it because they have a need to help people. Guess what, that social worker had nothing to do with where they met. It was the court or the supervisor that decided that. Since court was just held, it was most likely the court. I can't see that many good families are harmed. Some yes, but I would much rather see an overly cautious worker then one that is burned out and doesn't care. You don't get into CPS's radar unless your put there by someone. They are overworked so it's not like they really want you on their caseload if nothing is there. Maybe those good families your talking about had some secrets? I have seen those good families that have really screwed up their kids and no one would have believed it was going on. If you don't like it, do something about it. Get involved as a volunteer with the court, fostering, or CASA. I have! Then you might have a clue what is really going on.
Just to keep u up to date- they are replacing the entire staff at the school in LA-principal to janitors- and are scheduled to re-open tomorrow.
I think what's scary in a situation like this is that there was no way to ward off the outcome. If the caseworker had walked into the house first, she'd be dead, along with the boys. If they'd met at a neutral place many more could be dead if Josh had gone armed. If the grandparents had them he more than likely would have gotten them, too, at some point. It's obvious that he was bent on taking himself and those boys out. He would have worked out something. It wouldn't have mattered where they were, he would have found a way. So other than his being taken into custody right after Susan was missing, there was nothing anyone could have done. No one could have read his mind on what he planned to do. The only assured thing would have been his immediate arrest at the start of this nightmare.
"He blew up the house and the kids! ... He slammed the door in my face!" she told dispatchers." If she never went there to begin with it they would be alive today.
SHE didn't have a choice. The visits were ordered by the court. HE did. If he hadn't chopped them with an axe and then blown up the house, they would also still be alive today. This is NOT the fault of the social worker. The blame lies completely on the psychopath father.
That isn't her fault. It was court ordered
i think the courts played a big part in this along with him not being arrested...
If he had let her into the house she would be dead too.
If I were her, I wouldn't have been asking to leave because I heard the kid crying and smelled gas, I would have been busting out a window to try to save them. I guess there are two types of people, those who run into the fire and those who run from it. I'm an into the fire kind of girl.
Oh please, Janie. Then your dumba*s would have been blown up too. Which I guess would serve you right for flying into a situation with a crazy person instead of trying to get people who are trained in that particular situation.
Are you stupid...there was court ordered visitation. She had to take them, if not she would be in jail and he would have done it the next visit with the new case worker. Take your foot out of yor mouth so you can stop hopping around!
janie, easy to armchair quarterback, isn't it? so simple to say you would have been breaking out the windows and donning your cape with the big "S" on it, huh? Well, aren't you just the big super-duper wonderful hero of the world? people like you make me sick. make the judgement when you've been in the situation and don't start with the lies about how you have been. we all know better. And no, your a "fullofcrap kind of girl".
What an embarrassing thing to say, Janie. You go on into that fire, girl!
In your dreams.
oh, that poor woman. that damn bastard. i cant wait to find him in hell.
Good luck. It's getting so full, it's getting so you can't find anyone in there anymore.
John, this story is just awful. I had a psychopathic dad, and I can tell you that none of us were able to stop him from doing what he did. These kids had no chance. The social worker had no chance. Susan Powell had no chance. But you, John, now you're a keeper! Thanks for the laugh. I really needed that!
This is so sad, if the social worker would have been in the house with the kids and this nut case, I am sure she would be dead today. And the law can not lock up people for what they suspect he or she may have done. People we need to understand the state or the governement can not protect you from everything, bad things happen, the only person to blame is the killer.
The only thing she could have done is go in first, then she probably gets it first. Social workers are just bureaucrats in the government system, no better or worse than the society they work for. This guy doesn't seem smart enough to have hidden what he did with the wife, but apparently he did. In quite a few cases all our high tech equipment has failed us and we are left afterwards to wonder why. Everybody knows Casey Anthony killed her child, but 12 jurors thought the level of proof, that is "reasonable doubt" needed to be "beyond shadow of doubt". Reasonable people could see this guy killed his wife, nobody could prove anything...really anything? Not a proud day for the police department that said "nothing to see here" or the lawyer that got him visitation rights. We've lost something along our trip to 2012, but it's gone and we can't get it back. It's our individual conscience, we now submit ourselves to a collective conscience and accept the results as the price of freedom.
It really unfortunate that so many self-righteous people posting this morning are not kings. If only they had been dictators, they would have obviously had the ability to read the man's mind, solve and unsolved disappearance and would have been able to tell the social worker what to do.
In truth, this was a very difficult situation. Law enforcement spent hundreds of thousands of dollars trying to get evidence against this man and couldn't. Without evidence, no one has the ability or right to completely separate a parent from their children. This is a case that illustrates what many people don't seem to understand - just because you are crazy does not mean you are stupid.
From a societal point of view, the question is: How much more are we willing to spend to do a better job for children. The answer from one political party is to cut more money from social work and just let kids like this die more frequently because, the government is already "stealing enough money." They will soon reply to my post with "throwing money at a bad situation is never the answer". Well... they are wrong.
She heard them screaming because their coward father was using a hatchet on them before he blew them up. This should be a wakeup call to authorities do not let supervised visitation in the home. He was the prime suspect in a disappearance and all precautions should be taken especially with the interviews he and his pervert father had given. When children are concerned it's guilty until proven innocent.
You are right, but I feel that in some cases visitation can take place in the home. The circumstances around this case should have never allowed home visitation.
I think the take away here is that convicted child pornographers should go to prison for life. This would have included the grandfather and the father. Then we could all debate about who is the murderer safely -- and two little boys could be living a decent life. There is no safe, rational use of child porn.
feliznavidad - One problem with your post - the grandfather had the child pornography, not the father. That's why the grandfather is in jail, and the father was not. If the court had believed that the father was involved with child pornography, he would have been in jail too, and he would not have been seeing his children at all. While I agree this was a horrible tragedy, and should have been prevented if at all possible, you can't blame the system for not having done something about a situation that didn't exist, such as the father getting visitation rights in spite of being a child pornographer.
But the police did find child porn on Joshua Powell's computer. But only after he had brutally murdered his children and killed himself. Hopefully this POS rots in a burning Hell. If not, at least the world can scrape his memory off it's shoe and hope something like this Preventable tragedy never occurs again.
It's more than a shame that lessons have to be learned from tragedies like this. When a supervised visit is called for, it means that there is reason to believe that harm may come to the children. Always always, always this should be at a place where the parent comes to a neutral, secure location.
I agree with your comment, MomGrandma. You can't say guilty until proven innocent- that isn't fair either. I had an abusive husband and the courts didn't take in account that he abused me. He had not hurt the children... so he was able to take the kids anytime he wanted.I think that in a case where one spouse is being abused that the courts should also take that into consideration. Kids need to protected from all harm. When parents are in a struggle for power and control is hurts the children in one way or another.
This is proof with this father... cause he wanted full control - all or nothing... someone needed to hold the reins a little tighter and hold him accountable until he straightened up his act. I guarentee, once they had run the pych. eval. on him.. he would have had those kids yanked from him so fast and he knew that. He knew he was sick!
Alas, there are so many women now lying about being abused and using abuse charges (PFAs) as a cheap short-cut to a winner take all divorce, that those women telling the truth about abuse are now at a serious disadvantage. I've read that as many as 70% of abuse claims come for the purpose of divorce and are false. Unscrupulous attorneys are now counseling women to lie about it. Of course, this tactic is detrimental to children and the fathers who love them. Also, it's hard to defend a negative -- anyone can claim to be "scared."
My heart is broken for this poor family. Sleep in the arms of God Charlie and Braden.
What? Sleep in the arms of God? Are you serious? If God is supposed to be all-powerful and all-knowing and all-anything, he should have protected these innocent young boys (and their mom).
How true. All these "Holy Rollers" would have you believe that it was "Gods Will" to take the kids lives in such a violent way. What god? If you believe in this crap then you are amoung the missled. If that is true then this God is a god of violence and hate. How would a benovelent god allow such things to happen. Where was god during all the worse violence in the wourld? God is for those who cannot accept the natural course of things.Believe in self and your ability to think above the fray.....
Sleepinsadie why attack omega1-3015173? omega1-3015173 is most likely a mother and grandmother. My heart is also broken for this poor family. If the words "Sleep in the arms of God Charlie and Braden" provide omega1-3015173 and others comfort to understand and bear this tragedy, it is best to withhold criticism.
Gram, some idiot atheists can't help themselves. They have no interest in this case, they simply troll the comments of any tragic story looking for references to God so they can attack, belittle, and generally make fools of themselves. Sadie and Russ are to be pitied for the darkness and hatred of good things that dwells in their cold hearts.
In ALL professions, you have both good and bad workers! Just look at the political landscape of today! To suggest, or better yet, to ASSUME that the caseworker was to blame is "ASS-inine"!!!!!
Well said Katesgram!!!
God is not the one allowing Evil to happen in this world it is humanity. God love us and wants us to love him in return. He doesn't want Slaves that must obey his every order, nor do we want to be ordered around. He has given us the gift of free choice. WE can choose what WE will do in any given situation. This Man Chose to do Evil. thy do we blame God for the choices We make. Our Choices effect those around us and that is why terrible things happen to good people. Do you want a dictator as your God or just a Godless society? Ether way EVIL prevails.
Katesgram - attack? You really think that's an attack? I asked - Are you serious? And then stated that if there is an all-powerful God, he should have protected the children. See, attacking would have been if I called the person stupid or said they were dumb for their beliefs, but I didn't do that. I also don't think I criticized him/her for a belief. I questioned, but I guess you don't want people to be questioned...see, that's what happens in a free-speech society, people can say stuff and then others can question it.
Instead - you have Curt show up calling people idiots and trolls and fools and pulls stuff like 'Sadie and Russ are to be pitied for the darkness and hatred of good things that dwells in their cold hearts'...see, Curt doesn't know anything about me, but because I question a God, thinks I'm all that. Of course, I'm not an atheist, but I question any God of any religion being all-powerful when he/she allows innocent children to suffer at the hands of anyone.
Curt - you're quite wrong, I'm intrigued by stories such as this, as my pops was Chief of Investigations for the police and the criminal mind interests me. I also don't limit my belief to one God (probably unlike you), but answer me this - if I didn't believe in any Gods what would make me any different than you, who disbelieves in all other Gods except for one? As for my cold heart, I think the people i help with the volunteer time I put in (without any thought of how it might help me be judged in any afterlife), would disagree with you.
For you ignorant atheists...God gives people FREE WILL...that basically means you can do what ever you want to do...but YOU must be prepared to ANSWER for it when you die. There is evil in the world...that's the devil hard at work. As a matter of fact, God even gave you FREE WILL to say what you want about Him....I'm glad I'm not you and have to face Him when I die...it's gonna stink when HE says....so Sleepinsade and Russ....you denied me...now instead of spending eternity in heaven...you will have to go face the pits of hell. Gee guys...if I don't ever talk to you again (fingers crossed) HAVE A NICE TRIP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wow - I could question you guys all day? So, let me get this straight Liz-1343035 - God gives you freewill, but the devil makes people do evil? So, does that mean the devil is more powerful than God, cause he/she can make people do stuff and God only provides freewill?
The difference between us is that I deny no Gods while you deny every God except for one, so you better hope you are right. Hell, I'm glad I'm not you, cause you've denied every God except for one and according to the teachings of the Bible, I basically just have to say - I accept you God, as my true saviour - before I die for me to be accepted into your heaven. See, I believe that whatever God (if any) may be in power will judge me for my actions here on earth, which I would be willing to place against about 98% of people. I'm prepared to face any God, you're only prepared to face one - which one of us should be hoping for luck?
Leila - I don't want to leave out responding to you, cause you actually provided your thoughts without calling me ignorant, fool, etc...I actually understand all of what you said, but I don't buy into the 'dictator as your God or just a Godless society'. See, I'm not lookin for a dictator of a God, but I'm lookin for one who uses his/her all-knowingness to be like - Hey, that jerkoff is about to murder his two little kids and take himself with them. Hmmm, how about if I just drop a little heart-attack on that guy before his kids get there and leave him for dead before he can murder those two innocent kids who's mom I already allowed him to murder, this family deserves no more pain.
I blame no God for my choices or for anyone else's choices but I do question the God(s) who allow someone's choice to cause so much pain to innocent people.
The social worker isn't to blame. She was just doing her job as best she could. I blame the judicial and social service systems for having such a faulty process that doesn't protect the victims. Since the children had given the supervisors pretty good information that would lead them to believe their father had killed their mother, why wasn't a process put in place IMMEDIATELY to protect them from him? This isn't the first case, where a parent committing violence against their spouse is also committing violence against the children. If visitation was still legal, why couldn't it be done at a place in which people who had the children's best interests had more control? Just because the visitations at the father's home were "overseen" by a third party, it doesn't mean the third party supervised. Supervision implies a degree of control. How can a third party have control when the visitation is conducted on the suspect's terms (i.e., his home)? Here's a case where the system completely failed the victims. If anyone should lose sleep at night, it should be the judge who granted the visitation and the policymakers who implemented these flawed procedures.
I strongly support the maternal grandparents bringing suit against Washington state for negligence.
Children are put at risk because bottom feeder lawyers who know their clients are guilty only care about winning, they would lie and make up stories to get murderers off,ie CA, why was this lawyer giving him free service when he obviously had money? Where'd he get 7000? This coward was a control freak and knew authorities were getting close to the truth. He couldn't let them psycho evaluate him, they would find out he was as disturbed as his father. Hope his sleazy lawyer is proud of the part he played in keeping his client in the boys lives. He will sleep well at night because they have no conscience and will move on to the next "innocent" creep.
AMEN!! Finally, someone who knows what they are talking about. Thank You.
The thought of the agony those poor children had to endure before mercifully dying is almost too much for a sane person to bear.
Ellen, you are absolutely right. We put down deranged animals that pose a danger, yet somehow when they are classified as human we spend hundreds of thousands of dollars trying to fix them. The end result is a ticking time bomb that will kill and destroy innocent lives again and again.
Ellen,
I have a very hard time reading this story because this was so vicious. I feel absolutely terrible for those boys and their mother. I can't believe parents are capable of killing their own kids. I don't know when we will wise up in this country and give the death penalty to any person who kills a child. Although in this case it wouldn't have helped much. As a father I hope these kids aren't feeling any pain now.
Ed,
Like you I can't get over the horrific nature of this crime. As a father, grandfather and human being, I can't begin to imagine the pain and suffering the grandparents are endurring. I agree, kill a child, rape a child, sexually abuse a child, instant death penalty.