My god can beat up your god!

Because MSNBC is the only group reporting this, I question the accuracy. Is this practice widespread or is it just a few kooks ( like that nutjob out in Kansas that pickets military funerals)?

Methinks it is religious intolerance on the part of liberal media. Mitt must be stopped, because he might beat Obama! Let's dig up kooky stuff about Mormons and publicize it!

I am not sure how this practice harms deceased Jews. Who knows, it might help!

If you don't believe the Mormon religion, let it go. I don't believe many things that Muslims, Catholics, Jews and Mormons believe, but I don't go around condemning it.

I totally agree. I think its very import to explore this man's faith since Mormonism is so incredibly bizarre. The American Electorate needs to know. I mean it's only informed consent before voting ....

I wonder how many realize Romney wears 'holy underwear', an undergarment idol worn every day of their lives for protection. The history of the Mormon Church and the building of Las Vegas should be exposed. They have a living Prophet that speaks directly to God every day. There is so very much more its staggering.

Christians and others should unite to expose this Philosophy before it gets control of our Purse Strings and Nukes.

Hmmm... NEWS FLASH - It's not just the Jews. The Mormons are very busy trying to baptize nearly every dead and living person on the planet.

Apparently, the Mormons do not have any respect for the religious beliefs of other people. How do you feel about that? How do you feel about being baptized as a Mormon, in absentia, and without your knowledge or consent?

People need to realize that the Mormon religion is a cult, and they will do as they please to reach their goals of dominating the planet.

I wonder how it might be possible to self-excommunicate oneself from their meddlesome and intrusive baptizing efforts... ?

Actually, it's all over the news. The complaint about the Mormon Church baptizing the dead has been going on for decades.

I bet Fox will even cover this today...

FYI: MSNBC is not the only group reporting it. Huffington Post and Salt Lake Tribune also reported this story, as well as Fox News, USA TOday, etc., etc., etc. So it's not just a 'liberal media plot'.

For those who don't believe this (and especially for those who condemn the story without investigating it's merit) I copied this from Wikipedia:

Baptism for the dead, vicarious baptism or proxy baptism today commonly refers to the religious practice of baptizing a living person on the behalf of one who is dead; with the living person receiving the ordinance of baptism, for the dead person.

Baptism for the dead is today best known as a doctrine of the Latter Day Saint movement, where it has been practiced since 1840. It is currently practiced by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church), where it is performed only in dedicated temples, as well as in several (but not all) other current factions of the Latter Day Saint movement. Those who practice this rite view baptism as an indispensable requirement to enter the Kingdom of God, and thus practice Baptism for the Dead to give those who have died without ever having had the opportunity to receive baptism the opportunity to receive it by proxy if they wish.

The practice is arrogant, obnoxious and I don't think it's a stretch to say it's obscene.

Gary 420 and all the other commenters who despise MSNBC---why do you read the site?!?

Actually Gary, I have heard about this years ago. Instead of spewing your anti-liberal jibber jabber, why not use your internet connection and look things up, before responding in such ignorant ways. In one Google search alone, for 1995, it shows that the Mormon Church has agreed to stop the practice.

Outrageous!!! I had heard rumors about the behind-closed-doors baptizing of non-mormon relatives, for instance, but post-humously baptizing people who have absolutely nothing to do with mormons or the mormon faith, is ridiculous. That whole "religion" is a joke but this is preposterous. How can one even find out, if this absurdity has been perpetrated on anyone you know or even oneself. I firmly believe in separation of church and state but this should be illegal.

Gary.... The fact that you mention a "liberal media" shows that you are clueless. The idea of the media being liberal is simply ludicrous. It's fiction created by the likes of FAUX news to keep the sheeple ignorant. If there was a liberal media, George Bush would have never been president. We wouldn't have been lied into wars in Iraq and Afganistan. There are so many glaring examples that it should be obvious to any one really paying attention. The media simply repeats the talking points of those who own it all and they want the sheeple to believe it and stay in line.

Also, many real news organizations have talked about this for years, so it's not just MSNBC

This is HILARIOUS!!!!

Calling on Romney to condemn the acts? Didnt he get the memo?

Romney and his wife baptized her dead father, Edward Davies...who was a scientist and atheist.

Clearly, they arent capable of respecting another persons faith (or lack there of).

The question becomes, why should we respect theirs if this is the case?

I had read where the mainstream media (i.e. Team Obama) was going to start hitting hard on Mormonism, but I figured they would wait until after the nomination was sewn up before doing so.

The Mormons DO believe that the deceased can be be posthumously baptized into the faith by living Mormons. That is a basic belief of the church, and one that differs from more mainstream Christian denominations (that typically belief that each person, while living, makes his or her own choice to join or reject the faith). This is one of the main reasons why Mormons are typically very into genealogy. They feel it is their duty to baptize long lost family members into the faith.

As for some of them researching Holocaust victims to baptize them into the faith, I don't know. I suppose that it's possible that there are those doing this, and based on their belief system, I would say their intentions are likely 100% honorable.

What appalls me more than the practice is the use of it against candidate Mitt Romney. Clearly, the intent of this article to is cast Mormonism in its most unfavorable light, and it clearly is not an accident that it's being done. When Obama's local pastor (who married he and Michele, and in whose pews he'd sat for 20 years) said, "God Damn America", the media didn't care. But now that some in Mormonism may be practicing the seemingly harmless practice of baptizing (presumably out of concern) those who died many years ago, it's a front page story?

Paul notes that the Christian concept of resurrection is not merely spiritual, but also physical. He argues that Christ was resurrected in bodily form. Paul states,

“If Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain, your faith also is vain” (vs. 14).

Following this statement, Paul illustrates the importance of understanding the reality of physical resurrection,

“Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?”(vs. 29).

@flash8

You're nothing more then a troll. We know you just joined. I hope nobody is ridiculous enough to have paid you. They should ask for their money back.

Gary 420 "Mitt must be stopped, because he might beat Obama! Let's dig up kooky stuff about Mormons and publicize it!"

Let's use some logic...dont you think the Liberal Media would wait until you guys give Mittens the nom, before we try to "dig up kooky stuff about mormons"?

and it's funny, you say DIG up rather than MAKE UP.

at least you understand Mittens and his faith are nothing short of KOOKY.

Good luck if he's your leader...you'll need it!

Also, do us all a favor...either cut back on the toking, or ramp it up...because whatever you are currently doing, isnt working.

There is only one appropriate word for this unconscionable practice and it is...CHUTZPAH !! For the Yiddish-impaired I suggest- just Google it ..

As I understand it, and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, the Mormons collect death certificate information. They do this partly because they maintain a huge genealogy database, and also to perform "baptism by proxy" where Mormons stand in for a group of dead people and are baptized on their behalf. The dead are typically not Mormons nor did their families request the baptism.

I find the baptism by proxy practice highly objectionable for a whole variety of what should be pretty obvious reasons. I remember reading that a Holocaust survivors group was able to get the Mormons to stop baptizing Jews who had died in the Holocaust. Personally I don't think that anyone should be baptized by proxy unless they or their family specifically request it. It certainly strikes me as a cowardly way to drag someone into their faith.

This is mainstream LDS stuff.

http://www.lds.org/study/topics?lang=eng&clang=eng&letter=B

http://www.lds.org/new-era/2004/04/baptisms-for-the-dead-what-to-know-before-you-go?lang=eng

You can write to the main temple and ask if they have baptized you.

You don't gain membership to the mormon church, though, just by being baptized against your will.

http://www.lds.org/church/temples?lang=eng

Bruce "What appalls me more than the practice is the use of it against candidate Mitt Romney. Clearly, the intent of this article to is cast Mormonism in its most unfavorable light, and it clearly is not an accident that it's being done."

Then Mittens Romeny, shouldnt have baptized his wifes dead father...who was an avowed atheist.

HE CLEARLY MADE HIS CHOICE DURING LIFE...respect that, or shut the bleep up when people refuse to respect YOUR religion.

You're appalled...im calling BULL@!$%#.

"When Obama's local pastor (who married he and Michele, and in whose pews he'd sat for 20 years) said, "God Damn America", the media didn't care. But now that some in Mormonism may be practicing the seemingly harmless practice of baptizing (presumably out of concern) those who died many years ago, it's a front page story?"

I dont know where you were then during the elections, because this ran for quite some time on ALL THE MEDIA...we saw the clip over and over again "GOD DAMN AMERICA"

the truth is, most people didnt care...why?

Because most people understood the underlying sentiment and point he was trying make...we didnt take the words and pull them out of context and say "oh that pastor, he just damned america...did you hear that???"

nope, it turns out..we are far better than you at critical thinking, and most of all...apparently, MEMORY.

That it matters what the truth is. Obviously, according to Flash8, if it isn't on Fox News it's wrong. Doesn't it boggle the mind that Fox News followers believe only one news source out of several is correct even though they lost a court case admitting they were for "entertainment" only. And liberals are the morons to this guy. Typical.

By the way, many Christians find this Mormon practice of Baptism for the Dead just as objectionable as Jews. Baptism is a one time only sacrament.

Politically, this is a big handicap for Romney. Fundamentalist Republican Christians are going to have to hold their noses and might even gag a bit when voting for him, putting their hope for political power over their religious convictions.

Spiritually, if one was never a Mormon, or held to a particular other religion while alive, how could this baptism have any traction? One is either dead and nowhere, or dead and gone to the reward or punishment of the creed one adhered to in life, or one is already on his or her way to another incarnation (as I believe), possibly even in the next life as a Mormon (in that case making the baptism redundant)!

So, are the Mormons serious, or is it all tongue in cheek?

"As for some of them researching Holocaust victims to baptize them into the faith, I don't know. I suppose that it's possible that there are those doing this, and based on their belief system, I would say their intentions are likely 100% honorable."

Ever hear of the old saying "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"?

The intentions of Right wing whack jobs who murder abortion providers are "likely 100% honorable", also.

It is amazing that anyone, posting here, would try to defend any of the bizarre rituals of the cult that is Mormonism.

I once dated a mormon woman. I went to a lunchtime seminar with her, at her church. I learned that when God created the world, he also created a finite number of souls (I call this the "Finite number of souls theory of Mormonism). The reason that there is so much evil in the world was explained by applying this theory. There are more people in the world, than there are souls to go around. The result is that evil people were born without a soul, since there wasn't a soul available, when they were born.

If one does a little research, one can find other bizarre beliefs of Mormonism.

For the people, posting here, that believe that Obama is afraid of Romney: don't make me laugh. The more that people learn about Romney and Mormonism, the less likely they will consider him as a serious possibility for the presidency of the U.S.

"I wonder if as a candidate for the presidency Mitt Romney is aware of what his church is doing. I hope that if he hears about this that he will speak up," Wiesel said.

Wiesel is obviously uninformed about the LDS church because if he were informed about it he would know that all mormons are aware of it, it's brought into the introductory "discussions" or lessons that all members have to go through before being baptized into the church.

As far as it being objectionable, so is a lot of other stuff that's also in the bible.

Gary420, flash8 and others who think MSNBC is the only one reporting this... try doing a search before levelling completely biased accusations, this is what I found in 20 seconds on Google:

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/Religion/post/2012/02/mitt-romney-mormon-baptism-elie-wiesel-holocaust/1
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/14/elie-wiesel-mitt-romney-mormon-church_n_1276148.html?ref=politics
http://spectator.org/blog/2012/02/14/wiesel-wants-answers-from-mitt

Baptism is a public display of faith and is an act of faith but it doesn't get ya into "Heaven."doing it to a dead body just gets it wet. This practise of the mormons shows sincerely how dumb most are.

This practice is actually one of the reasons that the LDS church is listed as one of the fastest growing in the world. They include in their rolls everyone who has ever been baptized into the church, alive or dead.

Baptism is a public display of faith and is an act of faith but it doesn't get ya into "Heaven."doing it to a dead body just gets it wet. This practise of the mormons shows sincerely how dumb most are.

You mean people who don't know what "in proxy" means? Hint: it means there's no dead body being baptized.

This practice is actually one of the reasons that the LDS church is listed as one of the fastest growing in the world. They include in their rolls everyone who has ever been baptized into the church, alive or dead.

Lisa, that's completely false.

First, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world...
Second, the LDS church only counts living members on it's rolls...
Third, even with tens of millions of members, there's nowhere near as many mormons as there are Catholics, non-mormon Protestants, Hindus, or Muslims, each of which has near or over 1 billion members apiece.

Y'all seem to have missed the part where the article says that the proxy baptisms for the dead have to be accepted by the spirit of the individual for whom the work is being done. Which also means that they are free to NOT accept the baptism.

@Nikki, if you don't understand the LDS church, I suggest that you go investigate for yourself, and talk to actual members of the church, not the people who already hate the church. If you want to know something about the church, it's all at lds.org. Find something you don't understand, you can use the same website to contact missionaries, leaders, and members in good standing.

Empty-headed bigotry does not become us as Americans. Whether it's against Muslims, Jews, Mormons, or people of different race or nationality. Hating any person or group, just because they're affiliated with a religion you don't understand, is lazy and unfair. We as a country have struggled to overcome racism, and create equality for everyone, not just the person/people who are currently popular.

No, we members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are NOT weird. We work, just like you do. We drink soda, eat junk food, and lose our cool, just like the rest of you. We have bills to pay, children to feed, and homes to clean, JUST LIKE YOU. And when I (personally) get mad, or stub my toes, I cuss like a pirate, JUST LIKE YOU. I am human, and I make mistakes. I don't think I'm better than you. My church doesn't think you're less than it's members, either.

Do any of you realize how community-minded the LDS church is? Do you know that the bishop of every ward is responsible for the well being of everyone within his ward boundaries, not just the members of the church? Did you know that the LDS Church maintains a huge stock of emergency supplies that it distributes FREELY to EVERYONE, not just members? Do you know that the Church leadership isn't paid? The bishops, counselors, stake presidents, etc. have to maintain their own households, and they have to work, JUST LIKE YOU? Do you know what our tithing goes to? It goes to build churches, temples, and regular schools in places that need schools. It pays for scholarships, tuitions, and missionary work (By the way, the missionaries have to save up their own money to go on missions. Did you know that? These young men PAY to go out into a VERY unfriendly world, work for FREE, and have ungrateful, hateful people slam doors in their faces, try to run them over as they ride their bicycles across the street, or hold guns in their faces. And that's only the tip of the iceberg. Yet they always tell these horrible stories with a laugh and a smile because they are out there to serve YOU).

Baptisms for the dead are NOT binding. We do NOT sneakily force people into joining our church. If someone has had his or her work done inappropriately (as it appears happened in this article,) then that is on the head of the individual(s) who did that. If there have been people of Jewish decent baptized, it was most likely done by that person's family. If the Church is asked not to do the work of someone, or a group of someones, then the Church respects that request. If someone within the church steps out of bounds and tries to do it anyway, there are consequences. The LDS Church is not some sneaky, back door organization out to steal your soul. We DO NOT and CANNOT, force anyone, living or dead to join the church against his or her will. PERIOD.

If you really think that God is vicious and unfair enough to allow anyone to be "trapped" against his or her will, then I feel sorry for you. Our Heavenly Father is a God of Love and Mercy. And he loves all of us enough to allow us the Agency to choose our own paths, even if those paths lead us away from Him.

Baptisms for the dead are to be done for YOUR FAMILY ONLY. We believe everyone needs to be baptised and those who have passed have the right to recieve this saving ordinace. It is only meant to be for a persons ancestors, hence why the story says the person doing this got in trouble. They were doing baptisms for non-ancestors.

Bruce-308647 Perhaps Mitt Romney was called upon to try and stop this because he is suppose to be an influencial public figure, like the article says. Or perhaps it is because he is a high priest in his church, and maybe that would have more pull. Obviously, asking over and over, and obtaining written agreements is seriously NOT working.

Oh, and President Obama was not a priest of any kind in Wright's church, no matter what the guy said. Just as JFK was not a priest in the Catholic church, but his election is always brought up about how religion will not interfere with the office of president when talking about Romney.

This is NOT the first time all this has been discussed, and won't be the last. Just wait til folks start researching Mormon belief about comparative rank in heaven once we all get there.

Easydoesit, the person who did this violated the rules. You're only meant to do baptisms for your ancestors.

Also no amount of complaining by other decendants of my ancestors will stop me from making sure that my personal family (regardless of how many generations removed) have the chance to recieve the saving ordinaces of the gospel.

I love my family and want to see them again one day in the afterlife ALL OF THEM.

I read this and didn't believe it at first. Then my husband verified this practice as part of the Mormon faith. Yes he has read many books on different religions while trying to find God. Even Romney has performed some of these dead people baptisms. Discredits the whole definition of "baptism". Wonder how many dead women they have baptized? Since this is another misogynistic religion, none. Thank God I'm a woman!

One of my cousins married into a LDS Mormon family. There was serious talk of baptizing our shared great grandfather as a mormon. He was a Lutheran during life. Big family chaos. I still don't know if she did or not. It created a huge rift in the family and we don't speak anymore. We don't know how devout he was, but assuming he was, the mormon baptism would be a big no-no. If I die before my cousin, I sincerely hope she does not baptize me by proxy (I'm still Lutheran). I have no control over it, though, which is sad and frustrating.

AnaBanana - The baptisms are done by proxy on behalf of the person who (being dead) couldnt be there. For reference just as many women have been baptised as men. We believe all people must be baptised to "be saved" as other churches put it. Last time i checked women were people too.

sadmoronsvote2- Ahh but what if you get into the afterlife and realize that your cousin was right? Wouldn't you like to still have the chance to recieve this required ordinace?

@Z1p2 #1.30

First, I I did not say it was THE fastest growing. I said it was ONE of the fastest growing.

Second, I guess that depends upon whom you talk to. During my adolescence in Salt Lake City, the bishop at the ward I attended (because my best friend was mormon and went there) stated that was the primary reason for baptism of the dead - to increase the church membership.

Third, I made no mention of what religions had the most members, so I don't understand your point there.

Lisa - I find it sad that the Bishop in Salt Lake missled you. People who are baptised after passing are not considered to be counted as members. They keep all records but do not count towards any number tally. Also you seem to missunderstand that the baptism is something the person is free to accept or reject. So to count them is to make an assumption about their heart, which is judging them, which is a no no. If the church counted anyone as a member we would be assuming they accepted the baptism in the afterlife which is judging their heart, something we dont have the right to do.

I have this to say about the practice: if the dead who are being babtized into the mormon faith are upset about it, they can file their objections with the manager.

I understand some people might get freaked out about this, and if being babtized into a faith after you are dead is not part of your belief system, then you probably won't freak out if it happens to you after you are dead.

Nothin' like politics and religion mixin' things up.

Bruce # 1.14, you say

When Obama's local pastor (who married he and Michele, and in whose pews he'd sat for 20 years) said, "God Damn America", the media didn't care.

I don't know what media you read, watch or pray to, but anyone who hasn't heard about Obama's pastor Jeremiah Wright and his outrageous comments is way beyond help. Jeremiah Wright's story was front page for about 3 or 4 weeks running, forcing Obama to make a public speech on that subject all by itself.

If you've got a whine about your poor unpublicized diatribes about the real media, at least try to keep it realistic, okay? The media is in business to make money reporting news. If it's news that folks will pay to read/hear, they'll report it - whether it fits your personal agenda or not.

If this little dustup is still being reported every day for the next 4 weeks, then we can talk about it's being close to the scrutiny of Pastor Wright. Otherwise, you need to find another hissy to fit.

ROFL Oh my tummy hurts!

You Christians are so FUNNY. Well... when you're not murdering people or raping children or drilling holes in their skulls to let the demons out.

That did it. I'm not ROFL anymore.

I stand corrected that other outlets besides MSNBC are reporting this. I have not seen it, but I will take your word for it.

The fundamental question still remains: Why do you care? I think people bowing to the east 5 times a day is strange. I eat meat on Friday during Lent while millions won't. I have a beer now and then and many will not. Baptizing the dead by proxy is a ritual I don't understand, but Mormons certainly have a right to practice this ritual.

Why are liberals so intolerant of other views?

We should dig up all the old mormons, take them to Temple, and make them honorary Jews! Just returning the favor.

PuddleDuck - Thanks for the informative post. Isn't there some way we can make more souls? I think the most efficient way would be to design it here and then have the Chinese manufacture them by the millions. Come to think of it, they're already doing that, sort of.

As for Gary 420 - you think it is intolerant of me to object to someone baptizing my dead relatives? That's absurd. Our society recognizes the duty to respect the dead by placing special responsibilities/duties on the handling of dead bodies and criminalizing desecration of grave sites. To say that Jews objecting to somebody baptizing their dead relatives is "intolerant" is to parrot the propaganda line of Faux News regarding anyone who doesn't toe their far right political line.

Mormonism is a fake religion and a complete scam. Same as Scientology.

.

Gwad! Be careful Mr. Wiesel! The Southern baptists ( Gods Navy. They ain't got a lick of use for Gods Army) catch on to this, and they'll be traveling around, all over the world armed with pitchers of water, scouting out Jewish burial locations and flooding "em. Then they'll run around claiming they have all been converted, baptized, born again, saved, and free to raise all the hell they wish. You don't have to worry though, about the Methodist's and Presbyterian's, since they are generally too lazy to make such an effort, and too stingy to pay for such an undertaking.

That makes even less sense than baptizing babies! I am of a mind that it is logical to be able to THINK THROUGH A DEDICATION TO GOD BY BAPTISM, which is not appropriate for babies, but even less so for the dead, of whom the scriptures say "For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all..." Ecclesiastes 9:5

"Why are liberals so intolerant of other views?"

I'm not a liberal and I find this practice as offensive as it is possible to be.

Those who would proxy baptize somebody are the ones who have no respect for others' views/beliefs - NOT the other way around.

Most non-culties don't mind what you choose to do as long as it's not involving children - however to have the ARROGANCE, the chutzpah, to DARE think that you're doing somebody a favor by baptizing them into your cult proves your amazing lack of respect - since you're implicitly saying that we're damned and that only you can save us.

If we don't join your cult of our own free wills, it's for the reason that we DON'T WANT TO. I don't care what your book tells you that you have to do (dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb), but if you can't be a human and realize that this practice can ONLY serve to anger people at your lack of respect - how dare you suggest that it is WE who has the problem?

Arrogant ignorant fools...

All religion just sucks. Stupid discussions over ridiculous meaningless topics. Seriously.

lol, funny if a rebuplican reads anything negative in the news, its a liberals fault. lol the dirt usually ends under the repubs fingernails.

mormons are very disrespectfull and dislike outsiders, try gong to work in a place where the majority is mormon, been there, done it lol

As ridiculous as i see this whole practice & controversy as being, I don't see the Mormons as being ogres here exactly. Call it arrogant or whatever you want, but the practice exists because the Mormons see it as a way to get more souls into heaven, so lets not make this a hanging offense just because they do it for Jews too. What does anyone care if they do their little ceremony and make a notation in their files? Like God will need their files! Let em do it, it keeps them busy and not knocking on our doors.

Oh yeah, the Jews are upset for the Mormons presuming the desires of their ancestors. They may also need to have pointed out that they are presuming the exact same thing in their rejections of the baptisms. For all they know, their ancestors may have wanted just this. So maybe they should back off too.

Proxy baptism of the dead has been a core doctrine of the LDS Church for more than a hundred years. Nothing to see here folks, keep moving....

I don't care what religion you practice, you try and baptize me and I'm coming to your church and do some baptizing myself, with a golden shower.

Denny Crane,

You obviously don't understand baptisms FOR the dead. It isn't OF the dead. No burial sites were desecrated. And you have the title of esquire on your avatar. I figured you might be a little more informed before making an ignorant comment.

@Gary 420

Well done sir. You've managed to make yourself a bit silly looking, haven't you? A simple 3 sec Google search would have brought up articles from Huff Post, CBS, CNN, Daily Beast, Business Insider, USA Today, and this is just from the first page of results.

If the mormons are wrong then this practice is nothing but a bunch of meaningless words. If they happen to be right, I suspect those jews will thank them someday! :o)

I say who cares? Much ado about nothing.

"but the practice exists because the Mormons see it as a way to get more souls into heaven, so lets not make this a hanging offense just because they do it for Jews too"

Wrong... to use their terminology, my "god given free will" allows me to say NO - but these idiots sign me up anyways, and you don't understand how amazingly disrespectful that is?

There is a special place in hell for Joseph Smith for failing to understand that he was violating the number one rule of religion - invite people in, NEVER coerce them or harass them on Saturday mornings when they're trying to sleep in a bit. Sending teenagers out to try and recruit adults is also amazingly offensive... little kids with zero life experience but wearing name tags that say "Elder" (lmao, Elder than what, a pet?) and try to turn you into a cultie, when they have literally zero exposure to any other faiths in the world - as disrespectful as it is possible to be.

And NEVER baptize them into your faith without their willing participation, or they WILL burn down your celestial temple once they get there. The place they were in before you desecrated their soul was likely much more enjoyable to them. Think about it... not everybody will be happy to have you meddling with their afterlives.

There is a special place in hell for Joseph Smith for failing to understand that he was violating the number one rule of religion - invite people in, NEVER coerce them or harass them on Saturday mornings when they're trying to sleep in a bit.

Wow, I never realized there was a "number one rule of religion", or did you just make that up? Oh, maybe it's YOUR number one rule of religion. I suspect you just don't want to be bothered by it, huh?

I do have another comment about the harrassment in the early morning, Mormon missionaries study until at least 9:30. Depending on where they are many dont even leave their apartment until 10:30. The people that are waking you up aren't Mormon missionaries. As to coersion, there are two words that are readily available that you can use to send those pesky Mormons away. No Thanks, Not interested, or even Go Away. A Mormon missionary doesn't really want to spend time with someone that isn't interested in speaking with them. There are others that will speak to them.

heh...i don't even say anything. i just slam the door.

"Wow, I never realized there was a "number one rule of religion", or did you just make that up?"

Actually there are numerous that don't recruit... if you want to join them, you have to actually show intent yourself - so no, that's not something that I made up.

Unfortunately the "evangelicals"; including the Mormons, the Seventh Day Adventists, the Assembly of God, Southern Baptists, Jehovah's Witnesses fail to understand that the worst way to make somebody consider joining your faith is to randomly send people around to harass people on their weekends. And then after they wake you up, they don't have the common courtesy to go away when you strongly tell them that you have zero interest whatsoever.

When the Mormon kids show up, I love to grab a can of pop and a cigarette and step outside to let them understand that I know lots of things about their religion that a non member generally would have never heard of... all the time drinking my caffeine and sucking down some nicotine (both are "sins" to them). When they ask if I have any interest, I just raise my cigarette and smile.

I make sure that they are aware that although I know many of their temple secrets (only members are supposed to know them), I have absolutely zero interest whatsoever.

Unfortunately, they're not smart enough to keep a database of the places that have respectfully declined membership - so inevitably a few months later yet another pair of inbred looking missionary kids (with practically zero life experience) stop by to annoy me again.

That's just about the worst recruitment strategy they could POSSIBLY have... and then they do stuff like this baptism of dead people. How rude.

"heh...i don't even say anything. i just slam the door."

Ask them if they have ever read the Book of the Dead, Talmud, Hindu Vedas or Koran... then when they give you the stupid "what are those?" look, remind them that they are clearly not qualified to discuss theology with you whatsoever - THEN slam the door in their face.

The look on their faces is priceless. :D It's been a while since I've done that, but normally if somebody tries to pass The Watchtower to me, that is what I will do.

Just to clarify chouse, Pop isn't against what Mormons teach. Some choose not to drink pop, but others do drink it. You'd be better off taking a beer of a cup of coffee.

"Just to clarify chouse, Pop isn't against what Mormons teach"

Tell that to a bunch of my neighbors growing up. They were very clear that within their faith it was considered a stimulant and therefore a sin.

Maybe the church in toto has changed their opinion since then, but in the early '80s per their explanation it was very much so considered off limits.

actually it's not pop they're against...it's caffeinated pop like coca-cola, pepsi, mountain dew, etc...they're ok with non-caffeinated 7-up, sprite, root beer, etc...

Actually, that's kind of a grey area. I'm Mormon, and I drink caffeinated pop. My college roommate was horrified every time I drank a Coke, which was a pretty regular occurrence. The Church doesn't have an official position on caffeinated beverages.

no they don't, but they preach "your body is god's temple", so they're against drugs such as caffeine...

Tell that to a bunch of my neighbors growing up. They were very clear that within their faith it was considered a stimulant and therefore a sin.

Maybe the church in toto has changed their opinion since then, but in the early '80s per their explanation it was very much so considered off limits.

I'm a former mormon, so maybe you might listen to me... the church itself never came out against soda / pop, it did come out against coffee and tea however, and many mormons interpreted that to mean anything with caffine. However, that was a personal interpretation held by many rather than an official stance by the church. Understand the difference now?

the offence is that as a human chooses his religion annd choice of afterlife, the mormons have no right to enter after death and decide that persons afterlife. Leave folks alone.

yeah right. like anyone can enter somebody's afterlife...this conversation's getting kookier than religion itself!

Richard,
If you believe mormonism is a false religion then you would have to believe that what they do would have no effect on the afterlife of others... If you believe that what they do does have an effect on the afterlives of others then you must also believe that what they believe and do is correct, and therefore, what's your beef?? Do you see the fallacy of your position now?

k, any offence if the church of satan does a babtismal for u when u die?

of course that's ok. don't mean squat. they could baptize mother theresa for all she cares too.

k, any offence if the church of satan does a babtismal for u when u die?

I wouldn't take offense at it, I'd be too dead to be offended. LOL

Let me help you out here and change the premise for you and answer the question of if I'd be offended if the church of satan does a babtismal for my loved ones after they die... and the answer is that I really wouldn't care. I wouldn't participate, but what they do doesn't have any effect on their afterlives, so I really wouldn't give a damn.

"However, that was a personal interpretation held by many rather than an official stance by the church. Understand the difference now?"

Either way, the fact that I intentionally lit up a cig and had a caffeinated beverage should have told them right then and there that I was being polite by talking to them but was not a viable recruitment candidate. Occasionally I've even offered them a cig to see the shocked look on their faces. Priceless. And don't try to say that was mean - after all, they were the ones who so rudely woke me up when I was sleeping in. I can't even imagine how annoying this could be to somebody working a third shift position - which would be the equivalent for most of us of somebody knocking on the door at 3 AM when we're deeply asleep. Really, proselytizing is incredibly rude and we don't care that your doctrine tells you that you must do it... you ARE pissing people off every time that you do it.

Either way, the fact that I intentionally lit up a cig and had a caffeinated beverage should have told them right then and there that I was being polite by talking to them but was not a viable recruitment candidate.

Why? Do you really think smoking a cigarette and drinking a caffinated beverage is such a horrible sin that Jesus could not atone for that sin?? As long as you're human you are a viable recruitment candidate.

And don't try to say that was mean - after all, they were the ones who so rudely woke me up when I was sleeping in.

And you put a sign on your door stating that you're sleeping in and not to knock on your door? Or do you always assume that the people knocking on your door know what you're up to? Mean? No, they are used to far worse. But they also aren't being rude simply by knocking on your door unless you had a do not disturb sign. Just thought I'd offer you a little bit of perspective there.

you ARE pissing people off every time that you do it.

I guess you missed the part about how I'm an EX-mormon...

"As long as you're human you are a viable recruitment candidate."

Somebody who orders a copy of the Book of Mormon from the TV ads or who inquires at a temple are viable recruitment candidates - leave the rest of us alone!

"As long as you're human you are a viable recruitment candidate."

WTH? You'd actually expect somebody to have to post a sign saying that? That's so ludicrous it's not even funny. Don't EVER knock on anybody's door on the weekend in the morning unless you're expected!

"But they also aren't being rude simply by knocking on your door"

Yes, they ARE! You talk about perspective - well that's the perspective of most of us... we don't want you to keep annoying us about your Angel Moroni or Smith's Golden Plates. If we were interested, we would have joined already!

"I guess you missed the part about how I'm an EX-mormon..."

That matters not one bit as you're playing Devil's Advocate on their behalf. You act like their intrusion of my privacy is perfectly kind and not annoying in any way. But it is annoying. Very.

Like I said Chouse,

Mormons don't usually knock on doors early on a Saturday morning. That is another group that does that.

"Mormons don't usually knock on doors early on a Saturday morning. That is another group that does that."

Explain then why they were LDS missionaries complete with no stubble and "Elder" name tags.

Feel free to assume all you want, but I was explaining what has happened to me many times. The Mormon missionaries are in general much more polite than the others, but they still have that incredibly annoying trait of waking me up on a Saturday morning - MY time of rest - and assuming that I need their help to be saved. How rude!

well that's the perspective of most of us

No, that's the perspective of you and you alone, and I can't tell you how ridiculous I think you are. You certainly aren't someone I would put any stock into wanting to conform to the desires of.

That matters not one bit as you're playing Devil's Advocate on their behalf.

I see you have no idea what playing Devil's advocate means...

"No, that's the perspective of you and you alone, and I can't tell you how ridiculous I think you are. You certainly aren't someone I would put any stock into wanting to conform to the desires of."

Wrong. If you polled all Americans you would find out that the vast majority feel that having members of some faith constantly harass them is amazingly disrespectful, amazingly intrusive, and they wish it would stop forever.

Just because we have a lot of LDS people in this thread trying to pretend that you're not being complete jerks doesn't change the reality one bit. You annoy us, yet because your sacred book tells you that you're supposed to, you overlook the fact that you're pissing people off every time you do it. Seriously... open your eyes you naive children.

You are the ridiculous one - having some insane notion in your head that MY perspective doesn't matter one bit, when I'm the one that your missionaries are so rudely bothering. Having some notion that even if we've said no thanks dozens of times in our lives that you STILL keep stopping by, even after politely asking them to put me on a "do not annoy" list.

Yet, you think I have a problem? Wow... you say the word perspective as if yours is the only one that matters. Wrong.

It's bad enough that you send people out to recruit, but then you pull a double whammy by sending teenagers who have practically ZERO life experience. Sorry, but a kid who has anything to teach me is incredibly few and far between, and I have yet to meet a single LDS missionary who had a clue about anything besides the LDS. Bad strategy across the board. You see, I'm a very spiritual person, but when somebody has read the Bible and Book of Mormon but not a single bit of other theology in their life, they simply can't begin to discuss theology with me. They are NOVICES.

It's rude enough to send somebody that actually knows what they're talking about to recruit, but a bunch of little 19 year old kids? Wow, how amazingly, incredibly disrespectful.

"I see you have no idea what playing Devil's advocate means..."

Well there's the official Inquisition role and the standard day to day role. I surely know the difference very well, so stop trying to act smart. It's not working.

As any genealogical researcher knows, the Mormons have a heck of a database. More than likely, everyone reading this will have more than a single ancestor there. And, more than likely, everyone in that database the Mormons now consider as fellow Mormons.

And, actually, with Mormons you have to anticipate word games. What exactly isn't Mormon policy? Maybe they were only talking about the mistake of not waiting until Wiesel had passed on.

If you think that's an exaggeration, you probably haven't talked with many Mormons.

@Flash8

You just joined. Why do I suspect that you're nothing but a useless troll, possibly a paid one. You have the stink of one.

Gary 420

It's a church wide belief and practice that has been going on for decades. Having been raised amongst the Mormons, I have always questioned how one can be "baptised" when they're dead who are already at Home with their God. If a person didn't choose to be LDS when they were alive, the church forces it in them at their death.

I have also, for many years now, wondered how to go about preventing this from happening to my name after I'm gone. With this article, I will now be aggressively seeking out those prevention measures to insure that they don't do this to me, as I am actively anti-Mormon, having had it shoved down my throat my entire life. In my life I have made sure I do not get numbered amongst them, and I will make sure that they can't force their religion on me, or my name, after I'm gone.

Members are only supposed to do their work for their own family line. The LDS genealogy site says this in a few places. They have tried to make this an emphasis in temple work. The problem comes into play in that it is very hard to trace genealogical lines of a person. Their newer genealogy system is much easier to track this way, however there are many who are still on an older system. If I were to walk into a temple right now with a name that I found, there is no way for them to check to see if I am related. Family tree lines are incredibly complex.

According to this agreement wherein they stated that they would no longer allow baptisms for the dead for these victims, they did state that they would allow them to be done for descendants. When this person walked in, there was no way to verify that he wasn't a descendant. It would need to be examined in more detail, which is what they did. They could have just ignored it all together and this would have never have been an issue, but that wouldn't have been the right thing to do.

The LDS church believes that baptism is a required ordinance/sacrament in order to enter into the kingdom of Heaven. They also believe that it is something that requires a physical body to do, so it must be done by a living person. They believe that this in no way changes a persons belief, desire, or religion, and is only effective if the person wishes to be baptized. They believe it must be done by a person who has the proper authority or priesthood, that can be traced back to Christ.

In their eyes, they are giving those who may otherwise be able to be saved, the ability to do so. In their eyes, it allows everyone the same chance to be judged and have the same opportunity in the next life.

The person who has passed away is not added into Church records, and they are not considered a Mormon. The temple does try to track who is done, so they don't do them twice.

If the Mormon church is not true, then nothing has changed for those that have passed on, and there is really nothing done. Someone recorded a dunking for someone. There is no religion change, and it makes no difference. If the Mormon church is true, then it allows those that have passed on a fair chance. The person would get to choose if they want to accept it or not.

The point of being able to choose in the afterlife is very predominant if you were to actually look at what they believe from their web site.

I can't imagine it being possible to care less about what silly rituals the Mormon church conducts. To even say you object to it - to acknowledge it at all - is to give it a power that it can't possibly have. Let 'em have their ceremony for my, or anybody else's soul - doesn't change a thing. The classiest thing for Wiesel, and anybody else to do, is just to smile, nod, and say, "Have fun, fellas. Don't get your good shoes wet."

In their eyes, they are giving those who may otherwise be able to be saved, the ability to do so. In their eyes, it allows everyone the same chance to be judged and have the same opportunity in the next life.

Sure glad you included 'in their eyes'... because frankly, many believe God is up to the task of handling the hereafter all by Himself.

@daryl-2183015: No rights are removed or changed. If the persons core belief is that they still get an honorary vote in their religious order based on what they chose in life for the next 1000 years, this would not be affected.

If the persons right is to enter Heaven because they were baptized into a specific religion, then this would not have changed anything because the LDS religion would not be true in this case. I would find it ridiculous that one would believe God would hold you accountable for another groups actions that are completely out of your control.

Just to make it clear, I am LDS, and I do not follow their teachings blindly. I have studied it in great depth, and I know the logic for every principle that I believe. I, however, am not a verifiable source, and prefer to direct you to the beliefs of the church directly, and not through me, which is why I often say 'Their belief'. While I share those beliefs, I am not authoritative.

As a friend just suggested, we should sit Shiva for all the dead Mormons. I'm sure they'd get it then. Maybe we could posthumously convert Mormons to Pastafarianism. Then teabaggers could feel more comfortable voting for Mittens – most teabaggers I’ve met apparently love pasta. And hoverounds. And cognitive dissonance. And...

Religions. Sheesh. Bunch of kooks.

I'm Mormon. If someone sat Shiva for me, I would feel glad that they loved me enough to do so. Even if it's not a part of my culture or tradition, and even though I might not believe in it, I understand that they do and that they wanted to express their appreciation for me after I passed on.

So let me get this straight. Mormons shift through the rolls of dead people and anyone who has a family connection can and probably will be baptized regardless of their wishes while they were alive.

But the Mormans say this is ok because they only include 'family' and that they want everybody to have the choice when they get to the pearly gates.

What I see here:
1). It completely removes the dead person's rights to have their own wishes followed. Had they wanted to be Morman they would have made that choice.
2). The bigger thing - Mormans are supposed to be so concerned about the souls of people but they only include their 'family' members. So in reality they don't care about any other souls. Hmmm, what does that say about their religion? If they really believe this then I see it as pretty arrogant.

In fact I see the whole thing as pretty arrogant. But then every religion believes 'their' way is the only right way into heaven. Funny thing is, Jews, Christians, and Muslims all believe in the same God. Seems to me that God most likely won't care which 'flavor' one belongs to. I suspect their individual actions in this world will have more impact. If there is an afterlife I think many, many souls are in for a really big surprise.

I usually find the whole organized religion thing and all the accompaning rituals to be very bizarre.

If you really don't want to be baptized after you are dead, all you have to do is tell your family members that you don't want to be have your work performed.

dsb,

We only perform it for our family members for now to minimize offending people that don't want their ancestors being baptized. If the Mormons are right, then everyone that ever lived will have a baptism performed for them. If they aren't then it will stop when they run out of names of family members.

Yo Dennis Price:

NO I did not just join this commie rag website, I read all websites, news outlets so I can find the truth somewhere in between. I started as Flash, then Flash1, 2, 3 etc. But the anti-free speech, Alinski numb-skulls that monitor this site didn't really appreciate my point of view.. Why? Because they are afraid to challenged by another viewpoint. See if MSNBC doesn't agree they try to silence you.. So my friend I have been a (gulp) newsvine member for many, many years.... Fool!

They, nor you will never silence me! But I do appreciate you giving me the "opportunity" to school you my little comrade! Now don't you have to go occupy something or move out of your parents basement?

Stinkleton, that is exactly what needed to be said! Just when you think there isn't anything more idiotic that any of them could do or say, they come up with something like this. I'm only surprised the rest of the cults haven't started doing the same...

As objectionable as the practice is, and as much as it should stop, Mitt Romney is running for President of the United States of America - not the Pope of the Mormon Church. Mitt should leave this up to the leaders of the Church and Mr Wiesel should be making his well founded demands elsewhere.

@Uncle Dave - that's pretty much what I think GOP should do with any of their religious stuff. Contraception, abortion - they should stay out of it. Mitt Romney already put in his two cents on the contraception issue -therefore he can speak up here as well.

I dunno, I'm a hardcore atheist, but I do find this rather disrespectful to people of faith. Baptizing Holocaust victims is even more disturbing. I think the Mormon Church's insistence on doing this, over the protests of other religions, is really what pushes them over to the "cult" side of the religious divide. The attitude that "you will join us whether you like it or not" is a bit terrifying. I do find it terribly amusing though that an all-powerful god needs his minions to go through this little sham ceremony in order to bring others into the fold. Um... what part of "all-powerful" is so confusing? LOL.

The practice of baptism for the dead is taking such a beating, allow me (a member of the same church as Mitt) to offer some points of clarification.

1.) If you think all religion is a fairytale, don't bother telling me. You and I have a different disagreement we'll have to resolve another time.

2.) Mormons believe that baptism, as done by Christ, is necessary for salvation (the eternal type.)

3.) Mormons believe that said baptism must be performed by someone who has the authority to do so (which authority they believe was given to that Joseph Smith guy and is only found within their church.)

4.) 3.) above would be terribly unfair (considering #2) to those who never had a chance to be baptized in like manner, so here enters baptism for the dead. The dead are not 'baptized into the church' they are not 'baptized Mormons'; the dead are given the opportunity to accept a baptism like Christ's, done with what we consider the necessary authority. We don't know which dead people would have accepted the baptism, so we try to do it for all, with the emphasis on deceased family members.

5.) Consider an analogy: I am at a party at your house. You serve beer to your guests. You offer me some. I don't drink. Should I be offended? No! You are just trying to give me the opportunity to partake in what you are enjoying. Now you may object, saying: but what if I know you don't drink? Isn't that rude? But the point is, we don't KNOW which deceased people wouldn't accept the baptism. But it is something we view as good and necessary, and so we are trying to HELP people. We are not arrogantly trying to expand our ranks; we are simply trying to do what we believe to be a helpful thing for others.

6.) Considering all above points: If you can't get past Joseph Smith and angels without an inward groan (i.e. you haven't yet learned to truly accept others' beliefs), please don't pick apart this or any other religion. And please realize that what we do, we do out of consideration and love, not at all out of arrogance.

Steve; no, we do not accept other people's beliefs when they are creepy. And we have just as much right to criticize said creepiness as you have to practise it.

sorry steve - religion is the opium of the masses. ALL RELIGION. Mental placebo for people who can't deal with REALITY

I am not a member of the LDS nor do I agree with many of their practices, but I see the vitrolic hatred of many of the posters and wonder if our nation has degenerated into one great big junior high school.

What goes on in an LDS temple is no one else's business

What goes on in a Synogauge is no one else's business

What goes on in a Mosque is no one else's business

What happens in a Pooja is no one else's business.

What happens at Mass is no else's business

That is why they call it the First Amendment.

Jock - I wonder if you would be offended if someone lambasted your faith.

Canary - I am not an athiest, and yes I can and do have to deal with reality on a daily basis. - Reality stinks and reality shows stink even worse.

Why can't we act like true Americans and just leave other people alone?

Peace....

Steve
Re: your #6 about accepting others beliefs fail. It's your faith that fails to accept others beliefs with this practice. Your church is actually going against a person's beliefs in doing this. Had someone wished to follow your church while living that's their decision. If not, that is also their decision.

So get off your high hourse about tolerance until you follow it yourselves. You can tell yourselves it's out of love but it really is arrogance. Arrogance that the dead person 'just didn't see the light so we'll do it for them anyway', and arrogance that you if you REALLY believed it you would be doing it for every person, not just your 'chosen' few.

@ steve madcity.... i understand what you're saying, now please, try to understand me....

we DO NOT view baptism, any sort of baptism, as welcome, as helpful nor as desirable, for us jews. you christians are welcome to it, along with pork, and shellfish. i'm sure that they're delicious, and that many people enjoy them, too.... we don't. we don't want to. we can live our entire lives blissfully and joyously NOT eating pork or shellfish (and even add it meat and milk mixtures!!)... and we're even aware that they exist, yet we still refrain from eating them... why? because our religion demands that we don't. so, to use your analogy, if i were at a party, and were 'offered' the sausage and peppers, or the butterfly shrimp, and said "no, thank you", (actually, i'd never go somewhere where they'd be offered, but for arguments sake, i'm following your example), but were then held down and had said foods shoved into my mouth, so that i could "have the opportunity to enjoy them, even though i'd already said "no" that would be analogous to posthumous baptism. except that just eating treif (unclean and forbidden foods) is not as bad as becoming an apostate - which is what baptism does to a jew, it makes them an apostate, which is, actually the point of your performing them on jews, you want to apostacize us. it's not helpful, and none of us want, need, or would ever accept the "second chance" at accepting anything to do with jesus, on any level, for any reason, at any time... to say that we heartily and soundly reject any and everything about this jesus of yours is an understatement.

our religion has no concept of 'hell'... or of "damnation" (eternal or otherwise). we have no "original sin" and therefore no reason for anyone to obviate, or "die for our sins"... those concepts are foreign, and frankly laughable to us. any punishments we feel that g-d will hold for us are finite, and his love infinite. and we also believe that while we have to follow 613 mitzvot, or commandments (both positive and negative), that non-jews have to follow 7, and in doing so can and do attain the same rewards that we get. there's no need for, or desire to force anyone to follow our religion. from wikipedia -

****The seven laws listed by the Tosefta and the Talmud are^[7]

1. Prohibition of Idolatry
2. Prohibition of Murder
3. Prohibition of Theft
4. Prohibition of Sexual immorality
5. Prohibition of Blasphemy
6. Prohibition of eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive
7. Establishment of courts of law

The Noachide Laws comprise the six laws which were given to Adam in the Garden of Eden, according to the Talmud's interpretation of Gen 2:16,^[8] and a seventh one, which was added after the Flood of Noah. Later, at the Revelation at Sinai, the Seven Laws of Noah were re-given to humanity and embedded in the 613 Laws given to the Children of Israel along with the Ten Commandments, which are part of, and not separate from, the 613 mitzvot. These laws are derived from the Torah. According to religious Judaism, the 613 mitzvot or "commandments" given in the written Torah, as well as their reasonings in the oral Torah, were only issued to the Jews and are therefore binding only upon them, having inherited the obligation from their ancestors. At the same time, at Mount Sinai, the Children of Israel were given the obligation to teach other nations the embedded Noachide Laws.^[******

btw, if you're REALLY into this whole "being helpful" thing - go and baptize mohammed. let the moslems know about it, while you're at it. yes, this IS an extreme position, however, the mormon stance on this practice is causing an extreme reaction. there really isn't anything, of a similar nature, which could be done to you, to show you the pain and anguish that this practice causes for us... the worst thing i could think of would be someone making a porno fim, using a mormon motif, and that doesn't even come close.

think of it as desecration - you're desecrating a person's soul. you're kicking them while they're down, and can't defend themself. you're polluting them and befouling them. THAT is our take on baptism. and, btw, we put our money where our mouths are... if, chas v'shalom (heaven forbid), we were to die, and find out that our beliefs were 'wrong' (not gonna happen, ever, but again, for the sake or argument, i'll again follow your lead), we would NOT jump ship and join yours. why is that so hard to understand? what's so difficult to understand? we believe, with PERFECT faith, in our religion, in our g-d, and in our traditions... if you feel the need to hedge YOUR bets, please, don't project that onto us!!!!!

Without wanting to invoke Godwin's Law, the "person" to whom you refer has been posthumously baptized into the Mormon church at least a dozen times.

"Godwin's Law" is BS, and made up because someone got sick of hearing Nazi allusions in the course of forum discussions.....

Your point, however, is correct.

Godwin's Law is more than BS, it provides the valuable function of not cheapening what occurred and allow them and their name to be used as a simple, dumbed down synonym for "bad things".

Indy Patriot, for your edification: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

So now religions are fighting over the dead? What's next? Baptizing jeffrey dahmer? Oh wait....

No, not religions. Just the Mormon PAC, eh, mall management, eh, I mean faith.

Well, GOPers, your choice is clear:

Whacky Mormon Dude or Whacky "My God Knows Best" Dude for CIC.

What a lovely group you have there.

Or we can vote democrat for the follower of Jeramiah "I Hate Whites" Wright.

At least they can pick a side and committ. Obama, not so much.

@Weallhaveopinions

Or we can vote democrat for the follower of Jeramiah "I Hate Whites" Wright.Or we can vote democrat for the follower of Jeramiah "I Hate Whites" Wright.

Is that all you've got? That is so old and weak it's just pitiful. You guys are just running on empty anymore. Now we're getting embarrassed for you. So very sad.

@daryl

Well, the night is young. He's on a hate roll. He'll bring up birth certificates next. If it's old and debunked, he's here with it.

Isn't it just ridiculous, the things that religion will convince people to believe? It's been said that the only things all the disparate religions have in common is that they all think all the other religions are absurd. One of the completely absurd things is the belief in any sort of afterlife, including anywhere that's "hot".

The entirety of religion, including concepts like baptism whether performed pre or post death, is wholly insane. Be careful not to insult someone elses silliness, while standing waist deep in your own.

daryl,

Do tell.

we all have ass holes, too. is that so revealing?

Just because it's done doesn't mean it's binding. The person who has died and has returned to the spirit world has to accept the ordiance and the church or they can choose not accept the baptism that was done for them. Either way, in the end it's their choice, but it's still important to give a person that option...even Osama Bin Lading *Smirking*.

You mean, like parents do for their children?

Even though the LDS Church has made this pledge, as the article shows it is well-knigh impossible to control the actions of all of their Church members, however well-meaning they may have been. As stated, the person who made this submittal has been suspended from further submitting names. What else can the Church do?

That said, I fail to see why the Jews, and Mr. Wiesenthal in particular, are in such an uproar about this. The Mormons are performing these ordinances (sacraments) out of love and concern, at considerable time and expense for themselves. Why else would they do it? And what is so "wierd" about performing sacraments for the departed? Many faiths believe in burning candles for the dead, or saying prayers for them. If you don't believe in these Latter-day Saint practices, then you really aren't losing anything, are you? We are not taking away the "Jewishness" of these people, and we believe they are free to decide for themselves in the hereafter whether to accept our ordinances or not.

Would Mr. Wiesenthal be offended if we offered prayers in behalf of his dead ancestors? Probably not. These temple ordinances are an opportunity for the departed to accept our free-will offering in their behalf, or reject it. If you don't believe in it anyway, then what's the point?

And finally, Mr. Wiesenthal apparently does not understand that just because Mr. Romney is a prominent political figure, he does not hold any position of authority in the Mormon Church. The Church leadership have done all they can in this case, and they regret that any feelings were hurt by the well-meaning efforts of certain members.

What a naive comment. Comment on things you understand. I just look uneducated.

K. Kammeyer #5.3 -- Are my eyes deceiving me? Are you actually saying that this is an opportunity for "the departed" to accept [their] free-will offering. The "departed" is most likely six feet under (that or in a tasteful urn) and hardly in a position to accept of decide anything. As far as the church leadership having done all they can--B.S. If they had "done all they can," they would stop this ridiculous practice. It's obnoxious enough when they come at your door; at least have the decency to leave people alone when they're dead.

Some interesting notes about the LDS church.... Though it is condemmed by the high level person in the church that is mentioned in the article, you should all know that it is common practice today to baptize allmost every person in a Morman community with out permission or knowledge of the person whether or not the person is a Baptist, Jew, ect.

And while it is the doctrine of the church to not "fly in the face of science", the head of the local stake (my employer) says that the human race is only 10,000 years old. Since he is my boss I thought i wise not to argue.

The prosicuting attorney in Utah a morman stronghold says that he does not prosicute poligimists since there are not enough jail cells in Utha to hold all the offenders. He also says the often when he did prosecute the crime most of his morman deputys just could not locate the offende to serve the warrant,

Brigam young told Lds member that people were comming to steal their lands and hole wagon trains, as a result, slaughtered by the mormans. the slaughtered settlers wer not even on their way to the Morman lands. The men were told that if they gave up their weapons they would be escorted through. tThe weapons were surendered and then the male settlers were killed. I' note sure the fate of the women

flds members routinely have forced sex with underage girls under the guise of poligimy and arranged marriage..

I don't have time to list all the things that The church says it dosent do that get done by the church. Any one thinking of voteing for Romney should do some research on the Lds church.

Kammeyer, Wiesenthal has been dead for several years. I think you meant Wiesel, the actual subject of the story. And Romney has been a bishop of his church.

K. Kammeyer #5.3 - Mitt Romney may not hold a position of power in the LDS church, but he DOES believe in the church and therefore agrees with its dogma and practices.

boater1025: As a non-morman born and raised in Northern Utah (Yeah, about 40% of the state is NOT mormon and no, I don't know any polygamists), I'm always entertained with the anti-morman rhetoric. I know more dirt about the Mormon Church than I'm willing to type. However - the LDS church is NOT the FLDS church. You lose credibility when you start throwing 2 religions into the pot and call them one. Tisk-tisk.

Justme-123: "Was" being the operative word there. There's a huge hierarchy in the church, and a bishop is pretty much the bottom the totem pole. Generally, bishops in the LDS church are called (volunteered by the others in the church, to which you kind of have to accept or risk looking really bad) to serve for approximately 4 years. When he was a bishop, he really didn't have a chance to change the minds of the President (aka Prophet) of the LDS church, and now - he doesn't have a shot at all. It's like expecting an ex-priest to convince the vatican to do something differently.

Lisa-2564810: Why would you think that everyone in a faith would agree with the dogma and practices of their church? There are plenty of Catholics who disagree with the vatican's stance on birth control. There are Christians who don't burn witches. I know plenty of Christians who don't have a problem with homosexuality. Your argument just doesn't hold up.

Reading all of this has made me happy I don't subscribe to any faith system other than what I feel is important to me. Any one of you could have your faith system ripped apart by a bunch of armchair quarterbacks, and yet I bet most of you say you subscribe to the Golden Rule. I don't agree with the church still doing this (although, I remember when the agreement was made in '95, and was surprised to read that some jerk thought he/she could still get away with it); however, this was the act of a single person duping the system/church and further victimizing Jews who saw more of Hell on this Earth than anyone should have to. I may not like Romney, but I know his voice, even if he becomes POTUS, will not sway the LDS church authorities one bit.

@k. kammeyer...

you really don't understand why mr weisel 'and the jews' are making 'such a fuss'???? how is it that you don't understand that baptism, any sort of baptism, is offensive, in the extreme to jews, any and all jews???? did you somehow miss that we don't recognize jesus as anything other than a man, albeit an agitator and an apostate?? that we not only do NOT revere him, but are reviled by him? if you had, somehow, managed to miss those tidbits of information, please, then, re-read them. we do NOT, under any circumstances, at any time, for any reason accept baptism. we do NOT aspire to become christians, of any flavor or variety... and we do NOT need 'extra chances' to make sure of it. as to any time, effort or expense YOU might expend on the exercise, those are of less than no concern to us. we didn't ask for it, we don't want it, and, frankly, we're not impressed. just stop it, save your money, time and effort for those who might appreciate your efforts.

you yourself don't know if any jews would want, or be offended by your prayers for our dead, so, why not play it safe, and not offer them? it's easier, and frankly, less offensive if you just were to ignore us. live and let live, and die and allow us to rest in peace. we don't want, nor need your prayers, 'work' or ordinances. you do, so you keep them, please. not only are your efforts not helpful, they're offensive on a basic, fundamental level. you might believe that you're 'only trying to do good' but, in the end, you're doing great harm, and performing a heinous action. talk about the 'road to hell being paved with good intentions'... instead of you injuring us, and then saying that we should just ignore it all, why don't you ignore us, and we'll all be happier. i can assure you, with complete certainty, that no jew wants to wind up in your afterlife. we don't want, or need your, or anyone's efforts, to 'get to heaven'... the concept of hell doesn't exist in judaism, nor does damnation, eternal or otherwise. original sin, and the 'need' for someone to 'die for anyone else's sins' is a laughable concept to us. any punishment that a person might merit, is finite, while g-d's love is infinite. so, again, we don't need your, or anyone else's help - we're doing just fine the way that we've been doing. and, we also don't believe that 'heaven' (your translation, not mine), is restricted only to jews.

but, just an observation - baptize me, or mine, and i'll make your afterlife into something that would make hell preferable. and, you ask, what else the church can do, to dissuade their members from submitting names of those who should not be submitted? here's a thought - excommunicate them. 'cast them into outer darkness'... that's actually a situation where the punishment would exactly fit the crime, but, of course the lds church won't DO that, since their goal is, after all, to convert everyone, and this is just a sneaky way of doing it.

For all we know, the proxy baptism has already been done for him.

God that would make an awesome weapon against the Iranians... stop building nukes or we'll baptize the hell out of you

That's sure to get a fatwa. ;)

And they can do this right in the comfort of their own Salt Lake City cathedral. You're welcome, Amadinejahd.

@Michael-267231: There's a waiting period after the death of the person. For a family member, it's one year after death. For anyone else, it's a least five years and permission of the family is required. Plus you have to have a birth date and a death date. Then you have to get someone who can go into a temple do actually do the baptism for Bin Ladin. So, I'm very sure his "work" hasn't been done yet.

been there, LMAO. Heck they believe all of the rest of the fantasy so I'm sure they would believe that too.

BTDT, that is truly funny! "you better play nice or we'll baptize you without your knowledge or consent"! That'll teach you! AAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Expecting Romney to 'refudiate' (isn't this a Sarah Palin word?) this practice is a bit of a stretch. Remember that Romney would not allow his wife's parents to attend their wedding (non-Mormons are not allowed inside). Unlike Kennedy (who separated himself from the Catholic Church), Romney is brainwashed by his 'church'. And last week - Romney stated that he would never allow the government to interfere with any religious practices. This means that he supports the Warren Jeffs branch of the Mormon Church (which practices polygamy), and that he supports the Islamic religious practice of killing all non-belivers.

They claim to be the 'new' christian church, but read their Mormon Bible and decide for yourself.

I agree - she got caught dissing a major issue - Good of you to catch something I just read right over.

at least they leave the dead alone-- except for the vampire thing.

I didnt make it an hour before I put it back in the fiction section.

You need to read the whole Book Of Mormon. Partial information is shallow information and not very good.

I don't need to read the Book of Mormon. I watched Battlestar Galactica.

(For those who don't know, the original series was based on the Book of Mormon. They changed a couple names around, like the planet Kolob for Kobol, or Kobol for Kolob - whichever was in Galactica, it's the other way in the Book of Mormon. The thing is, at least Scientology was started by a real science fiction author.)

It's also a violation of the Mormon's 11th and 13th Articles of Faith, but then, considering that they only seem to apply the 11th to other Mormons and I'm not so sure about how they apply the 13th, you know?

Oh, the 11th says that all faiths will be respected. The 13th says that they will deal honestly and fairly with all people and be truthful to them.

Of course they're honest. That's why the mob let them run Vegas.

I study religion (all not just one) for a living and I have trouble with ignorant people like most of the comments posted about the Mormons. Any Mormon, like any Catholic or Muslim or Buddist or Unitarian or whatever religion that one practices has the right to their own political views and has the right under the Constitution to say those views. It's rather irritating when people will put down someone's religion because they don't understand it or are generally intolerant. You right and your aren't superior with or sarcastic and hurtful post. Just because you don't understand or don't even try to understand someone else's point of view on who is God, doesn't give you the right to troll the internet, looking for a way to tear down someone else's religion.

BTW, I do agree with the article, the Mormon Church should have stopped baptizing the holocaust victims unless in was a member's direct ancestoral line which is in accordance with church doctrine.

I dont think he's Glenn Beck in disguise ... I do think he understands sarcasm though. Regardless of how much any of us are exposed to any given religion, faith or creed. If we go our own way that's our decision. It does not require us to put anyone down though right? I think the point was, and I may be wrong, is that it takes more effort to understand each other than to ridicule each other. Yeah; the members that submitted the names were clearly in the wrong. It doesn't make all members guilty; most members (of any Church I have attended) seem to be pretty decent folks and try their best to respect everyone.

That's your belief- I don't think you can call it fact just yet...

I'm sorry, but this is all malarkey.

OK, explain to me why this is so "insulting" to you, daryl. Exactly who or what are we "insulting" by performing a good-faith sacrament in behalf of someone we loved? If it's all malarkey, then who are we hurting, in any case?

K, how would you feel if your dead relatives were being posthumously "bapitized" by satan-worshippers or something similar? It's dishonoring someone's loved ones and done with purely selfish motives. A loved one lighting a candle for their grandmother is hardly in the same ballpark as a baptism by proxy in a totally different religion.

So - if I painted your house because I felt the color was bad for you - it's only a house - I don't believe in property rights - maybe you do - but to me it's silly - right - like you decided it has no effect on the dead - it's not your dead - you are too casual with other peoples feeling and beliefs.

I do suggest the Mormons try this with Muslim departed - see how well that goes over. I mean - if they really believe in this - Mormons for Mohammed.

Agreed, Romney should not be pulled into this. I see none of the other candidates put in the spotlight for any controversies in their respectives religions. If he has a beef it should be with the church and not Romney

By his logic Gingrich or Santorum should ask Catholic priests to stop molesting children.

Gingrich and Santorum aren't bishops in their church... Romney is.

Except Mittens is guilty of doing this too. Why shouldn't it be an issue?

Yeah, it's not like Obama was pulled into the Jeremiah Wright controversy.

Really? But it's OK for the GOP candidates to get in the middle of the birth control vs. Catholic affiliations, and put their two cents in about how the law is wrong, or contraceptives should be made illegal? Or comment on Komen vs. Planned Parenthood donations? They threw themselves in the middle of those issues, no reason why Romney shouldn't state his side in the Mormon baptism of the dead.

@Paul M in Wbridge: Gingrich and Santorum aren't bishops in their church... Romney is.

Unlike Catholic or other bishops, a Mormon is called to be a bishop for (on average) five years over a congregation, and then is released from the calling. It is not a paid vocation; he has to work at his day job and take care of his family too. Romney was a bishop for a time, but is not one now.

Perhaps this isn't an issue for a political candidate. But I think evangelical voters that are considering Romney should know that this practice of Baptism for the Dead is mainstream LDS stuff.

http://www.lds.org/study/topics?lang=eng&clang=eng&letter=B

http://www.lds.org/new-era/2004/04/baptisms-for-the-dead-what-to-know-before-you-go?lang=eng

The church doesn't put those baptised on a list of supporters. IF anything there's a check mark by their name saying their ordinaces are completed. They aren't counted as members and we believe they are free to accept or reject the ordinace in the afterlife.

Unfortunately MSNBC again did nothing to explain the issue, which is why people seem to think the church runs around baptising everyone who died and calling them members of the church. (which isnt the case)

kama, jesus is an anathema to jews. so, baptism is, by extension, anathema as well. we don't, under any circumstances, at any time, for any reason, do this. we don't submit to it while alive, so why do you think that we should do it when we're dead? is it that at that time, we have no way to defend ourselves from it? to us, baptism is disgusting... it's akin to being immersed in a cesspool. so, if YOU would want to be immersed in a cesspool, and then be told, 'well, just ignore it, it doesn't have to mean anything', but all the while you're reeking of the stench of said ordure, fine. we choose to opt out. we've made that choice repeatedly, but you guys still keep on forcing it upon us. it's the equivalent of spiritual rape. you're forcing something upon us, that we don't want, didn't want, and will never want - but that you're getting a real charge out of doing to us... power and control, much? we shouldn't HAVE to 'accept or reject' ANYTHING in the afterlife. we've made our choices, here in this one, and they're binding. why do you refuse to accept that we can choose to NOT play your games?? why do you feel the need to hijack people's souls and hold them for ransom?

That's right - and that's another reason why the objections are silly.

Zuck------ wrote: "Doesn't matter. There is no such thing as heaven, a soul, or god."

darn, now you have ruined the ending for me

Zuck, you are oh so very wrong. As the Most Holiest of Holy Cardinals of the Most Holy Church of the Invisible Pink Unicornly Path to Enlightenment Through Ra the Sun God, I can assure you that our Savior phoned me last Thursday and reconfirmed her existence and applauded our ongoing program of re-baptizing all dead Mormons, Jews, Christians and Muslims, as well as those pathetic believers in Zeus and Thor!! Now, to all you who have yet to tithe this month, please send me your tax-deductable checks for very large amounts to Cardinal Ukidnme, 123 Fullacrap St., Gullible Calif., 99666.

Are you sure? I was just thinking that this could be a way for the FSM to get a million members and become a real faith. I can see it all...a few strippers holding the initiate in a beer volcano, what a blast.

except if its a posthumous baptism it would probably contaminate the beer.

Was that a south park reference?

As a Jew, having this done is like taking a bacon bath before you start start your new journey. It is not right, and they have been warned before to stop shoving their religion down people's throats.

"warned", huh?...

"shoving their religion down people's throats."? "do as i say, not as i do" and/or "pot calling the kettle black"--curious perspective, very curious.....

the issue sounds ridiculous, and the "outrage" regarding the issue sounds even more ridiculous.

Or stealing other desert peoples' land, right?

Once again MSNBC has shown it's bias by blatantly avoiding anything that would explain the issue.

As a member i know that these baptisms are meant for YOUR FAMILY, hence why this person who arranged for them got in trouble, because they were doing baptisms for people who aren't in their family.

We believe that EVERYONE must be baptised in order to be "saved" as other churches would put it. There were numerous times and places where (we believe) proper priesthood authority was not around and people did not ever recieve the chance to be baptised. (to a degree this is unarguable as pacific islanders in the 4th century never heard of Jesus) Baptisms for the dead are a chance for those people who weren't baptised to still be eligible for the saving ordinaces of the gospel.

These things are not done in anger, they are done in love by the decendants in the hopes that their family chain will be connected through the eternities.

The blatant and intentional ignorance of MSNBC to not explain the issue fully shows the bias the network has. The LDS church only allows baptisms for YOUR ancestors ONLY. It's done because we believe EVERYONE MUST BE GO THROUGH BAPTISM in order to "get into heaven" again as other churches would put it.

This isn't about forcing our beliefs on other people, we believe the people who are baptised (by proxy by the way) are free to accept or refuse it, just like everyone who's alive and walking around today. These people aren't considered to be "Mormons" if anything they are considered to be able to be members or not but since they aren't around they aren't counted as part of the church (in a way) If anything they just have a little check by their name saying the ordinaces that we believe everyone must receive have been completed

Sadly this is the case now adays where everyone insults and makes fun of religion, which is one our most hollowed and sacred of rights. There's a reason the first amendment mentions religion, the USA was founded by people seeking religious freedom. Benjamin Frankly talked about the "American Religion" (which since i doubt most of you know isnt neccesarily Christianity)

No, this is about forcing your religion on others. If someone is an avowed atheist, it's an insult to them for a church, ANY church, to come around and baptize them when they are dead and have no say in the matter. And since you believe that this baptism actually means something and is significant, then you have chosen to involve yourself in someone else's religious beliefs. By your argument it's OK for your church to interfere with someone else's beliefs. Ah, but let someone else say that a church has to provide healthcare for its employees, now we're talking violation of 1st amendment rights, interference with your church's beliefs, etc., etc. How would you like it if Devil Worshippers started adding deceased LDS members to their ranks? I'm guessing you'd have a problem with that.

John everyone is free to accept or reject the truthfulness of the gospel. No one is forced into doing anything at all.

And as to your devil worshippers reference i frankly wouldn't care because not only would i not accept it but i do not believe they have any power over my soul.

The inherent idea behind baptisms for the dead is to give those departed family members the chance to accept or reject it because we love them and believe it is a requirement for spiritual progression. If it bothers you then the only thing i can say is you obviously don't believe it, so why care?

I'm sure that some who have a strong belief in their chosen religion would find it very offensive to be secretly baptized into a faith they didn't believe in after they died. If your gospel is so compelling, why not get them to sign up to it when they are alive rather than dead? I really don't care about it. However, when a candidate has strange beliefs like this, and believes it's OK to impose his beliefs on others, after they have died, people should be aware of it. It provides a window into their thought process. I DO care what happens in this life, and I certainly would not want someone with beliefs like this making decisions about my or my family's well being. He's running to lead the party that professes to believe in less control over our lives? And he believes that he has the right to impose his religion on someone after we die? What other beliefs does he have that we should know about?

John you seem to continue to miss the point.

First off it's not a secretly done thing. It's something that is done by the persons decendents and family on their behalf. Next not everyone was alive during times when missionaries were around where they lived.

For the final time we do not impose our beliefs on anyone, people are free to accept and reject it. You continue to try to say this is us imposing our beliefs on people, yet i've clearly explained that we believe people can accept or reject it as they can in life when they have missionaries knock on their door. Mitt Romney does believe in limited government, but he also believes in freedom of religion. If Jewish people believed their was a ritual that all people must do to be "saved" and they performed it by proxy i seriously doubt any member of the church would bat and eye to it.

Since after being explained to twice you still miss the point i'd refer you to the LDS.org website. There you can learn about the churchs stance on this issue and understand it if you approach it with an open mind.

No, I'm not missing the point. Your are. I see no difference between being baptized after my death than being dragged against my will into a church and baptized. My beliefs, my soul, are of no concern to your, or anyone's church. Only the church I belong to. And given how religion gets intertwined in politics and decisions in this country, I think it's important that issues like this be reported and discussed. It's important to understand how our leaders think.

Maybe you'll get the point after voters have made their opinions known and Mitt can enjoy his newly found free time baptizing the dead.

Hmm, maybe we should dig up all the old mormons and make them honorary Jews!

kama - Perhaps you are unaware, but the Jewish faith specifically prohibits proselytizing. Therefore, the practice of having Mormons baptize dead Jews is doubly offensive, and Jews would never perform such a ritual as you suggest. We won't knock on your door; please don't baptize our dead.

Speaking of crud..How ya doing Bagdadjoe?