I'm guessing they will not be opening the event with an invocation?

So, then, how about just announcing the score of the Knicks game?

;-)

John
You misunderstand. 'Secularists' simply want to keep religion out of our private lives. Nobody wants to take your right to worship away.

I know you don't believe it but you really should think a minute. If this country was actually a 'Christian' country excetly which version would we follow? There are so many and none believe exactly the same way. The point of 'secularism' is to protect the rights of all, believers and non-believers.

All Americans should support secularism in our government. We have plentyof expample of how a theocracy works and I doubt many want that. If for no other reason than the version of Christanity that wins May not be the one you follow.

"Here come the people who have given their approval to the torture and murder of millions of Christians, Buddhists, Jews and other religious people worldwide..."

John is doubtlessly referring to what's been going on in France, Germany, Norway, Holland, Belgium, Japan and, of course, Australia with their atheist female Prime Minister.

Uh... right, John?

John - an awful lot of "secularists" are actually people of faith. we have and respect our faiths and, unlike you, we respect the beliefs of those who are agnostic or atheist. We even respect you having your faith but, and let me be clear on this, while we will support your right to religious freedom & expression, we want no parts of it and need you to accept that your religious expression is not a right to violate our religious freedom.

As a devout Pastafarian I feel it is my "duty" to go and "protest" this event. Sounds like a great time to meet good people.

John, If you look back at all the horrible things that Christians have done in the name of god and you call us evil. I don't have a problem with your beliefs I just don't want to be ridiculed for my beliefs. I believe this country was founded on freedom of religion and I choose not to believe.

How can you hate something that doesn't exist?

John-3078515, you are thinking like a Christian with all that hatred. As an Athiest I don't care what religion you follow, I just don't want you to force whatever you beleive on me and my childeren.

Mitchell

John-my atheism should not diminish your ability to believe in anything,be it a god,or many,or the flying spaghetti monster.I need neither a supernatural presence or religious text to guide my morals,nor do I need organized religion with all of it's corruptions.I have a moral compass that, I find, often guides me very well, compared to those of my friends who claim to seek their guidance from the bible and god and still struggle with doing the right and decent thing.

I actually believe that one lives their life much more intensly,focused and with accountability when there is no promise of something better and a place where all wrong doing is forgiven.

Your religious beliefs are yours alone-and they must end where they start infringing on my mine.

insuralife I think you must have known the famous quote ' A pair of working hands are better than thousands of praying ones'. While you keep praying for nothing good, I will 'think' for you.

What I dont understand is Atheism is a belief system where a person chooses to beleive God does not exist. Isnt that the basis for a "religion"? The supporting theory behind it must be evolution. We all somehow evolved from primordial goo? I have to admit, some people I run into make me want to accept that as truth too but there has never been any proof at all of evolution from species to species. All we have are observations. Sort of like lets look at an apple seed and an orange seed. We can see the differences, like we can in the gallapagos birds, but to make a jump that one evolved into another seems a wee bit much. There isnt any proof. People can say that about God as well. My point is if you can classify Atheism as a religion, shouldnt we teach the theory of evolution in schools as it should be separation of church/state?

Atheists are the most deceitful and treacherous, the most brutal, the most bloodthirsty, and because they will not stop for common sense, decency, or any humanitarian reason because they are PROUD, ARROGANT MOUNTAINS OF EGO AND HUBRIS.

Awful people come from all walks of life.

As a Church going Christian, I fully support their use of the public arena to voice their opinion. I also would fully support the use of the public arena by Muslims, Agnostics, Christians, Jews, etc. This infringes on my freedom of religion no more than a nativity scene on a public courthouse or a 10 commandments on a school wall or any other expression of religion or non-religion. I wouldn't mind if an atheist group put up a sign next to a nativity scene saying that god doesn't exist.

What I dont understand is Atheism is a belief system where a person chooses to beleive God does not exist. Isnt that the basis for a "religion"?

no, atheism is a belief system where people come to the conclusion that god doesn't exist.

John, I no more hate God than I hate Superman.

I merely want the government to stay out of religion - and religion to stay out of government - since law is supposed to be neutral towards religion anyway.

As usual, much ado about nothing among dimwits. Don't like atheist conventions (or Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist ones etc., for that matter) then DON'T go. Walk on by. Problem solved.

Thank you John.

Thanks for the laughs!

:D

I find all of these comments hilarious, mostly because it reminds me of myself when I was 15. One day, I woke up and realized that all the arguing about "there is no God" was doing nothing but making me angrier and angrier. So, I stopped thinking about it. I suggest everyone try it. You will be happier. You won't find yourself furiously typing comments like the ones above and below this at 12am on a weeknight. There is no point in arguing when there is nothing you can do to avoid mortality, so enjoy the few precious years humans are able to experience life.

I do applaud the group for its actions, but only as it applies to separation of church and state. I do feel that because of extreme political rhetoric and polarization, ultra-conservative Christians are trying to "reorganize" the U.S. into a purely Christian nation. However, it is not I that should be bothered by this as much as it should be other religious groups, particularly Muslims who are so often blamed for wanting the same thing in other countries. Irony.

Now, you can choose to continue arguing online, or you can simply step away from the computer, go outside, and notice that daily life in the real world in which you live does not at all resemble the chaos online.

John, religious people DO trust atheists — they just don’t know it..

The overwhelming majority of scientists, inventors and doctors were/are atheists....without them we would still be living in the Dark Age.

:)

Good for them. I hope to see them open their first homeless shelter, soup kitchen, hospital or other charitable service soon.

@John-3078515

LMFAO!! Seriously!? You are a piece of work, you know that? We Atheists don't want to make the worship of your god illegal or kill those who do. I certainly don't live in a life of hopelessness and despair, nor am I unhappy. Actually, we are for common sense, decency and humanitarian reason. We just want equality and not have everyone's religion shoved down our throats. Also, it is kind of hard to hate a god when we don't believe he exists.

Guess what people no one knows till you die, then one will weep for the lost or there will be total silence.

Those of you who call non believers names prove what I have been saying for years, religions promote hatred against those who disagree with their beliefs.You live in the dark ages believing, if you don't believe in a god then you must be evil but it has been proven that it has always been the believers who have been the evil doers. We all know you don't have to believe in a god to know the difference between right and wrong. Most religions call those who believe in aliens as nut cases but believers also believe in something they have never seen or heard. Religions should stop intruding into our lives and dictating what we should or shouldn't do. I'm glad to see that more and more are waking up to the fact that they don't have to live in fear of going to hell. So many christian's (according to their beliefs) sin on a daily bases and then they turn around and state that their god forgives them, this is a cop out for taking responsibility for their actions. Believers use their religion as a crutch and can anyone tell me (just to mention one issue) why, when a child is born it's gods blessing but when a child dies they also say it's gods will so to me they are telling me that their god is controlling and vengeful entity. I don't mean to be against those who believe in a god but please don't preach hatred and don't try to impose your beliefs on the rest of us. Live and let live because we are all here to survive this life the best we can and hopefully we won't harm others. Peace and tolerance to all.

@Tether

Actually, one of the most influential founding fathers, Thomas Jefferson, was a Deist, not a Christian.

John, since I came out as an atheist, I've had hundreds of people approach me about it. These were people who grew up in the church and new nothing else. They ask me, "how do you do it?", "How do you know right from wrong?", "Aren't you ever lonely?" Then we have civil conversations. Many last well into the night. There is no preaching, no fire-branding, no threats of eternal damnation. This John, is human evolution. They see the world as it is in front of them. The mentally fittest survive and prosper and are leaving the church in droves. The ones who make posts like yours, not so much.

See you all in DC. I'll be the one with a smile on my face.

Thats what he was saying in the first place Jo Ann, try and keep up with the conversation dear.

It's about time.

Atheist Proud !!

.

@sonny:

Try and discuss your faith with one of you in the room and what an "in your face" battle begins, name calling and just hatred that comes out of your empty hearts and lives. Liberalism is the most gutless decision a person can make, no morals and foundations that is why they can never anwer a simple question.

You claim atheists are name callers, then you associate atheism with liberalism and call it gutless. You, sir, are the name caller.

The use of military terms is not lost on me either. This is not a war, or an attempt to undermine your faith. This is a demonstration for people who do not believe a god exists (notice the indefinite pronoun) - ANY god, not just yours.

You can discuss your faith in earshot of others, but do not insult them by suggesting that you are superior in anyway because a) you have faith, b) their faith is different from yours, or c) they do not believe any god exists. Atheists do not hate anyone who follows religion but they do not like those who force religion upon others (as is the case with the Catholic Hospitals who refuse to provide coverage for contraception in their healthcare options for employees - but they do provide coverage for Viagra, Cialis etc?).

If you, as I suspect, are a Catholic how would you like it if your Mormon employer took 10% of your earnings and donated it to his church? That is an imposition of religious beliefs on an employee in the same sense that not providing health insurance options that include contraceptive coverage (NOT abortion!) for an employee - the employee has to pay for something that would be covered in health insurance options with other employers.

This is not about an imposition on your belief system - it is about protecting an individual from the imposition of someone else's belief system on them.

You do realize that it was Republican legislators and governors who heartedly backed the same sort of laws on a state level over the past decade don't you? That would include Gov's Huckabee and Romney who now are claiming that this is a war on religion issue and your swallowing their crap. If you are a devout Catholic and believe Contraception is wrong then good for you but, most of your parishioners don't. Don't be a dupe and spew everything you hear. This is just an attempt by the right to paint Obama as something he isn't, he just passed a law on that was championed by Republicans like the Healthcare bill. Republican's don't mind when their own do it but, get pissed when the other side plays their game more successfully. This freedom of religion thing is just a divisive election year red herring that you are willing to chase. Fortunately for the left, it's also political suicide b/c A LOT of women vote and this has more to do w/ contraception than religion. Frankly, overpopulating the world w/ people irresponsible and could be the death of the planet or will be the other way around. I'm betting on nature to win, it has before and the dinosaurs didn't have a conceited view of themselves as the center of God's universe. Do some research, will ya?

John,

You are the supposed Christian, yet it is you who uses the word hate.

There is much more evidence of persecution because of non belief rather than the other way around.

@Tether: The men responsible for building the foundation of the United States were men of The Enlightenment, not men of Christianity. They were Deists who did not believe the bible was true. They were Freethinkers who relied on their reason, not their faith.

The 1796 Treaty with Tripoli states that the United States was "not in any sense founded on the Christian religion". This treaty was written under the presidency of George Washington and signed under the presidency of John Adams.

I have a very simple request. Could one of the Christians on here who constantly call us "selfish" or any other hurtful name for that matter, explain to me how that's the "Christian" thing of you to do? I don't know...I just get this odd feeling that for some reason, God or Jesus wouldn't want you doing that...? I'm not dancing around the question here. In fact, just so some of you don't get confused, ignore the rest of this post and only read the dark bold letters.

Moving on

I don't think you can call yourself an atheist and also consider yourself intelligent. And that is in no way meant to be an insult. Just my opinion.

I've always claimed to be Agnostic. You can't be intelligent without accepting the fact that there are some things science has not (yet?) explained. Or religion has yet to explain. So until one way is proven right, any theory is a possibility. Even a super natural invisible being who lives in the sky.

Somebody wrote:

"What I dont understand is Atheism is a belief system where a person chooses to beleive God does not exist. Isnt that the basis for a "religion"?"

What a pathetic question. How about if you ask if an atheist is a person "who chooses not to believe in God"?

See? You use semantics to make a bogus argument. Besides, the basis of every religion, the core of every religion, is the belief in a god, or gods, or some supernatural force(s) responsible for the creation and fate of the world.

We atheist do not believe in any of that. To us religion, myth and superstition is all the same nonsense.

Peanut, we're putting a lot of effort to counteract all the efforts that believers put into cramming their beliefs on the rest of the world. Be it prayer at school, or the denial of contraceptives to women, or the denial of equal rights to gays, or teaching "intelligent design" alongside evolution, etc.

It's the believers who're going out of their way to impose their myths, their superstitions, their belief in supernatural beings on the rest of society.

Religion, myth and superstition should only and only be practiced in private and OUTSIDE government institutions.

Every day I go to my local park for a 1-2 mile walk and a few months ago a group of Christians took over a corner of it. Fine. But then they began passing pamphlets and proselatize. People began to throw away the pamphlets all over the park and making a mess of it. After a few weeks the park rangers called the police who told the Christian group to stop passing their pamphlets. The group left and have never seen them since.

And that's exactly the problem with many religious groups. Instead of going to a public place and talk and pray amongst themselves, they feel they have to shove their beliefs on others. The group of Christians who were at the park where I walk did not have to leave the park but rahter leave people alone.

Religious groups need to stop feeling sorry for themselves and let others be. You've got yourselves to rely on, what more do you need?

This is pretty funny about this "happening" or gathering of non-believers to all believe together...or not believe together... "what one of the organizers called a "Woodstock for non-belief." A "Woodstock?" There will be at least one "absolute"; there will not be any product made by Stanley Owsley.

Jonathan F, atheism is not a belief system. Ask 100 different atheists about the meaning of life and you'll get 100 different answers. The common thread however will be the use of information instead of revelation. An atheist tends to quickly incorporate new information into their worldview in the same way a scientist incorporates new data into their theories. Because of the use of reason, faith has little bearing on the worldview of an atheist. One does not have faith that the sky is blue - they simply observe it. Knowing that the sky is blue is not a religion, however if we locked a group of people in a windowless room all their lives they may come up with some pretty wild ideas about the color of the sky. Those ideas would be based entirely on faith, as they could never be tested, and could be considered a religion.

Religions do not test their beliefs the way atheists do. There is no central dogma to disbelief. If proof of god became evident, even Richard Dawkins would understand and know it because he holds no dogmatic view that says otherwise. He only holds evidence that says otherwise and he is more than willing to question and change his beliefs if better information were to arise. Religions do not question, they violently contest questioning. They violently oppose other thought structures. They disregard knowledge that runs counter to their dogma, in fact they can't even identify scientific data from guesswork.

The differences between religion and atheism are not found in their conclusions about god, but in their thought processes. Even if atheists concluded that god did exist they would still be fundamentally different than religious believers in their use of facts.

And Jonathan, evolution isn't the central dogma to atheism. Nice try on attempting to back-door an argument against evolution based on atheists' own demand to keep religion out of schools. You might as well call history a religion with that approach, or physics!

Man, I wish I could get to D.C. next month.

Hey Scrambolo, dude, the same way that your blind faith has clouded your judgement? Sorry, man, you don't got the answer either.

@John: Paranoid much?

differnet, Atheists/Agnostics further mankind through study of science over religion. I am an atheist and guess what, I donate to my parents church food pantry. Your point is mute. Atheists don't hate mankind, we love it. Its religion that hates mankind. Your Bibles and Korans say that humans are sinful, unclean, temporary beings. I personally think humans are beautiful, loving, caring creatures that are corrupted by religion. Go ahead and hate yourself, just don't touch me with your religious sickness.

WOW! Ghandi said, "I like your Christ, but your Christians are not like your Christ". That is what I notice all the time. People who say that they are Christians act nothing like Jesus taught. I realize that the Westboro Baptists are an extreme example, but...you get the point.

wlee post 1.41, I am a "non-believer" and my favorite comment is that "when I die, I will know the answers to everything, or nothing.", which I believe provides the final answer for both religious and non-religious. We all just have to wait for our death to know for certain.

redvirginia

they promote hate agaist people that beleave in God

it's not promoting hate it's lack of a willingness to be preached at. you talk down to people who aren't religous as if you are basing your thoughts off of facts which you don't have. also, why am i not surprised that someone who was duped by religion also can't even spell believe.

Here come the people who will soon be making worship of God illegal and punishable by death

Sort of like an 'opposite' to the Crusades eh? I don't see that happening, but if it scares you into hiding, I'm in favor of you believing it.

By that logic Cody, why don't you also believe in Hinduism? Allah? Shinto? I mean, what have you got to lose?

@HATR_HURTER

What I dont understand is Atheism is a belief system where a person chooses to beleive God does not exist. Isnt that the basis for a "religion"?

no, atheism is a belief system where people come to the conclusion that god doesn't exist.

So you are basically saying it is it's own religion. It is a belief system...

None of the people named in the article sound like they would be any fun to go see...religious views aside.

The problem with John is not that he is a Christian, but he is a far far far right politically who thinks like Rick Santorum in that his holier than though beliefis can be ram down the rest of our throats. I being a good Christian but a moderate, think that John, Rick Santorum, and their ilk are NUTS.

atheist-5221728~ Last time I checked... the Halocaust wasn't in the name of religion, but an attack on religion. Hitler was not a religious man (unless it got him what he wanted).

With that said, I am a strong Christian, but I feel that everybody has the right to their own beliefs. I will continue to love those who don't believe or believe differently than I do because that was God's commandment to me. I don't have to like their lifestyle, but I do have to love them. (and I pray for them to change their beliefs) My only concern is when those who don't believe attack those of us who do with hate filled words. And I understand it is typically in retaliation for attacks on them, but please remember that, just as not all humans are alike, not all believers are the same. Do not lump them all in the same pile of hate filled people. If we follow God's word to the letter (btw~ this goes to most any faith that believes in a god, including Islam) we are to love everybody and pray for God to work in their lives to change their beliefs. Not verbally lash out at them. I have many Christian friends, but I also have several agnostic and athiest friends. I don't try to outsmart them in debates.... we can have amazingly intelligent conversations about life a faith, but in the end walk away and aggree to disaggree. And I think that should be the model that we should all follow. (again I pray in private for their salvation, but I don't beat them over the head with my faith) Let this group have their rally. Give them their freedom of speech. But please offer the rest of us our freedoms too. When my child bows her head to pray at school, please don't attack her by going to the school board requesting that it be illegal. You don't have to participate.... but let us have our freedoms too.

That is exactly what the religious Atheist do, they promote hate agaist people that beleave in God ( mostly Christians),

How exactly do we do that? By insisting on separation of church and state? How about Christians attempting to deprive people of the right to marry who they love because of what it says in THEIR "holy" book? Or block anti-bullying laws?

demand that only the theory of evolution can de teach in our schools,

Be specific please, only teach evolution is science class because its science. Whats in your book isn't. Want to teach your beliefs in a religions class, go for it. Be prepared to share the spotlight with others.

Question, if you and other Christians want creationism taught in science class I assume you would be for the idea of teaching other religions creation myths as well....right?

who is living in the darkes ages

You do know who caused the dark Ages don't you? Hint-it wasn't the atheists.

@ JonathanF

What I dont understand is Atheism is a belief system where a person chooses to beleive God does not exist. Isnt that the basis for a "religion"? The supporting theory behind it must be evolution. We all somehow evolved from primordial goo? I have to admit, some people I run into make me want to accept that as truth too but there has never been any proof at all of evolution from species to species. All we have are observations. Sort of like lets look at an apple seed and an orange seed. We can see the differences, like we can in the gallapagos birds, but to make a jump that one evolved into another seems a wee bit much. There isnt any proof. People can say that about God as well. My point is if you can classify Atheism as a religion, shouldnt we teach the theory of evolution in schools as it should be separation of church/state?

A couple points that I'll make.

1. Atheism isn't a belief system any more than not believing in unicorns is a belief system. Some people make the assertion that god does not exist, but not all. And yes, there is a difference between not believing a claim and making a claim. If you and I wagered a million bucks on a coin flip and I flipped the coin, didn't show you the result and claimed victory, you would not believe me unless I showed you proof. You would not be making the claim that I had lost, you would only be deferring belief in my claim until I provide evidence to support it.

2. Atheism doesn't require a supporting theory. You don't need a theory to not believe something (again with the unicorns).

3. Evolution has no direct link with atheism. The only link between evolution and religious viewpoint is that many creationists deny evolution because it doesn't jive with their religious belief. However, since evolution is the best available non-magical explanation (with lots of evidence behind it, by the way) of the diversity of life, most atheists agree with it. Just the same as most atheists agree that the world is not flat, this does not mean that "spheroidism" is somehow related to atheism.

Red Neckerson:

"Sounds like they are attacking other religions. Just leave them be. I'm an atheist but I could care less what others believe. I'm not out to "dispel" other's "negative opinions". Statements like the above is why people hate these folks so much."

Work on your reading comprehension, man. He meant dispelling negative opinions (about atheists).

Saying that religions are 'negative opinions' just doesn't make any sense, in the context of the article, or any context for that matter.

Everything affects everything. This country was founded on the very faith which I am so free to pursue. An atheist is also free to practice whatever it is they don't believe. That's their right guaranteed under the Constitution.

However, as soon as one rule or law is changed that alters the historical significance by which this countries was foundded or the manner in which I choose to believe because that athiest / agnostic/ or whatever is offended, I have a problem.

In God We Trust!!! It is now and will remain so. So help me God!

"Ray M

thatguy's comment sums it up nicely. Sure go ahead and shuns God's word and put all your faith in humans - that's why we're in the mess we're in."

Umm...What mess are you referring to? Religious terrorism? Religious battles? Narrow minded one sided views imposed upon people by the church? I'd rather put my faith in (*humanity* not individual humans) than in a god that claims to love his people then treats them like crap, a god that wipes people off the Earth, a god that acts like a 2 year old on a temper tantrum...you get my idea.

Jonathan F

as someone else stated atheism is as much of a religion as not collecting stamps is a hobby.

The intent is to unify, energize and embolden secular people nationwide, while dispelling the negative opinions held by so much of American society …

I absolutely agree, actually. It is easier right now to come out of the closet as gay than to come out as an Atheist.

The final battle of the the Civil Rights Movement...until there are AI beings and clones, that is...

Everybody worships something, whether they realize it or not. For many, it is God. For many, it is cars, sex, money, prestige and material things

A person who worships their car can show you the car. A person that worships money can show you the money........follow the logic?

Cody:

I have a bible. I've read it too. I was rather terrifically uninspired. I found contradictions and nonsense that I can't reconcile with the things I've seen. The answers don't line up with the questions in a believable way. It teaches us to embrace the contradictions as Absolute Truth because He says so and to stop looking for other answers. I can't do that. It goes against my inquisitive nature. You say I should embrace this belief to avoid punishment, but I would be a liar if I did. On the off chance (so unlikely I'm just not concerned about it) that I face Judgement, I'd rather say "I just couldn't buy the story, but I did my best to be a good person" than to try and be deceitful.

Chac Balam, I like that, hopefully one day we shall know all the answers.

Hey, remember Dawkins is the same guy Ben Stein outsmarted in Expelled when questioned about Intelligent Design, and He had no arguement against it.

This is sarcasm, right? You mean that incredibly dishonest work of editing that was meant to make a slight hesitation (as he wrapped his head around Stein's stupidity) look like a lack of a response? It was like a Michael Moore movie ffs. Expelled was one of the most pitiful pro-ID movies I have ever seen, and Ben Stein's arguments were just so flat-out ridiculous or purely strawmen that they were virtually rhetorical and any response would only serve to legitimize the illegitimate.

Not to mention Ben Stein is an economist; yet somehow people still think he's some kind of scientific authority on things not in any way related to the economy. I guess that's what uneducated people do though when it comes to anyone smarter than them (they must be an authority on everything!).

As an agnostic (pragmatic agnostic to be precise) I find many atheists to be almost as annoying as the truly devote. Why on Earth would anyone waste so much time thinking (and usually bitching) about something they don’t believe in? People like John-3078515 aren’t worth my time, why do so many of you feel YOUR time is worth wasting on him?

who has been an especially scathing critic of creationism and the "intelligent design" theory embraced by some Christians.

I honestly don't understand this constant linking of "intelligent design" with religion. I see them as two distinctly different things. Intelligent design simply theorizes that life and the various systems on our planet are much too complex and intertwined to have happened completely by chance (evolution and nothing else). Intelligent design by itself does not assume any kind of divinity or religious connotations. The intelligence behind the design could well be some super-advanced civilization or race far far away from us. There is no reason an atheist could not espouse intelligent design and I personally know many scientists who espouse it, concluding in their scientific minds that the order we see around us could not happen from chance and chaos.

Religion espouses that an omniscient, omnipresent, and divine God created the earth and the species on it. Intelligent design more simply admits that there appears to be SOME FORM of intelligence at work, because what we see around us certainly seems to have been designed by something more than random chance and change. "Intelligent design" is not necessarily code for God.

@Miss Lydia (#1.46)

"differnet, have you ever heard of The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation?

Yep Atheists do help the poor you idiot!!!"

Actually I'm not sure that YOU should be calling anyone an "idiot". Bill Gates is an agnostic & his wife Melinda is a very devoted Roman Catholic.

Believe or not as you choose but don't preach to me. I have my own beliefs and am not interested in yours. This goes for all religions or no religion.

Cody-5259012 - and the flying spaghetti monster is going to eat your lunch.

John is right-- well said John!

@ Concerned parent/citizen, Hitler was not an Atheist:

"And so I believe to-day that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator. In standing guard against the Jew I am defending the handiwork of the Lord."

-Mein Kampf, Adolph Hitler, Chapter 2

Bruce: "I honestly don't understand this constant linking of "intelligent design" with religion"

Perhaps it is because ID arose after the Supreme Court ruling banning Creationism in school, and they updated a Creationism text by doing a global replace of "Creationism" with "Intelligent Design."

And yes, "intelligent" implies an entity that has intelligence. Natural selction does not require an intelligent entity to design organisms. Organisms are "designed"automatically through differential survival and reproduction. The whole point is that it is NOT random.

The quote in context: "Atheism is so senseless. When I look at the solar system, I see the earth at the right distance from the sun to receive the proper amounts of heat and light. This did not happen by chance. The motions of the planets require a Divine arm to impress them." Sir Isaac Newton, Inventor, Scientist and teacher Isaac Newton, John Hudson Tiner, page 21 Mott Media, 1975

In Principia he stated, "The most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being." Sir Isaac Newton

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
Galileo Galilei

The Encyclopedia Britannica says of Einstein: "Firmly denying atheism, Einstein expressed a belief in "Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of what exists." This actually motivated his interest in science, as he once remarked to a young physicist: "I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details."

Let me see Richard Dawkins resume...

atheism is a belief the same way that OFF is a TV channel

I don't CARE about believers' delusions - as long as they STFU and don't get upset when I tell them they are deluded. IF it makes them feel better to be deluded, so be it. I don't need their delusion but they seem to feel an obligation to try to get me to ACCEPT it for myself. They would have a better chance telling the tide not to come in. ROFLMFAO!!

oh - and W - IF you read between the lines, and understand the TIME FRAME of those people, you would have a different idea of what they might have meant. You might understand that Newton had no idea of the scope of the "universe" and that the probability of life on other planets in their OWN "goldilocks zone" approaches "1" but cannot be proven due to the distances involved.

Bill Gates is an agnostic & his wife Melinda is a very devoted Roman Catholic.

Meaning what? That Melinda's faith trumps Bill's lack thereof?



Perhaps it is because ID arose after the Supreme Court ruling banning Creationism in school, and they updated a Creationism text by doing a global replace of "Creationism" with "Intelligent Design."

Pandas to People or whatever that book was called.

Even more hilarious is when they first changed it there were even instances that they didn't properly insert the new term and it said "CreaIntelligent Designtionism."

The court quite clearly ruled against them on very solid grounds and reasoning, so what do they do? Address the failures and problems in their arguments? No, of course not, they did whatever any dishonest peddler of lies would do - they just started calling it something else!

STOP with the Hitler crap. It doesn't matter whether Hitler was an atheist or not. Hitler was Hitler. We are not.

W, Newton was probably the most intelligent human being to ever have been born, but he wasn't perfect. When he got to a problem that even he couldn't understand, he just gave up and attributed it to a deity.

Those who point to religion as a "poison" to society are blind to the good religion brings to people's lives. Don't hate something just because you don't believe in it or understand it. You cannot judge an entire group for the actions of a few. It's stereotypical, it's a fallacy. It would never hold up in a logical argument. Sadly, such a thought process is used to condemn many things, not just religion, because people would rather hold something else responsible, anything except themselves or others.

Oh John-3078515... calm down. ...the only ones witch hunting are the crazy Christians like you. Everyone else wants to live and let live...including letting YOU worship. ....and apparently and conveniently you forgot about history where Christians slaughter countless poeple for not believing as they did... such as The Saint Bartholomew's Day Massacre in the 16th century (("Beginning at Paris, the French soldiers and the Roman Catholic clergy fell upon the unarmed people, and blood flowed like a river throughout the entire country. Men, women, and children fell in heaps before the mobs and the bloodthirsty troops. In one week, almost 100,100 Protestants perished. The rivers of France were so filled with corpses that for many months no fish were eaten. …When news of the Massacre reached the Vatican there was jubilation! Cannons roared—bells rung—and a special commemorative medal was struck—to honor the occasion! The Pope commissioned Italian artist Vasari to paint a mural of the Massacre—which still hangs in the Vatican!"))

Yes, many scientists believe in God and many scientists do not. So? Scientists are people. But at least most scientists know how to separate faith from reason when coming to conclusions. You can use both, but please know which is which.

And btw, Einstein made it very clear that he did NOT believe in a personal God.

Shuklack, I know Stein is an ecomomist and that is what made it great. I personally have a hard time believing we piggybacked off of crystals, and no Dawkins didn't say that in the movie. Dawkins admitted that there could have been beings for other planets that planted life here at the end, it wasn't just a hesitation but a compromise. It was a clear statement from Dawkins no editing needed. I didn't see Stein as an authority but rather an inquistive intelligent person going to the real authorities and simply challenging them on what they believe and have faith in, since none can even come close to proving, including life coming to Earth by way of comets. Also believe that He was just making the case why so much emphasis on one thougth but not the other, same as you saying you have one belief and you don't mind others having a different belief and you do not try to squelch their belief, which I commend you for.

I'm a liberal Christian. Most may think that an oxymoron, or the two ideologies incompatible. They're not if you're a true Christian and not a Sunday Christian. Christ's ideas themselves were very liberal and to some extent socialism. However, I'm far from a socialist. Democracy, Capitalism are great things in the hands of moral, ethic people. However, power, responsibility, and leadership put into the hands of greedy, selfish, liars taints and ruins Democracy and Capitalism, AND Christianity. I believe in God. I also believe I'm a sinner, and prone to mistakes intentional and unintentional. I believe my God loves me, and forgives me because Jesus died on the cross to forgive mine and everyone else's sins for all time before, now, and after. It's an awesome thing to know and realize that God believes in me and you, no matter if you don't believe in him.

I'm glad atheists will march in Washington. It's their right. It's what makes the Constitution, liberty, freedom of religion great. I don't have Freedom of Christianity. I have Freedom of Religion or lack there of. What a great country to know I can believe in my God without persecution from any other group in this country. It should be a relief to know that any other group is free to believe in what they want without Christians persecuting them. I may not agree with their ideologies, but through my belief system, I will pray that some day God will enlighten them. I passively hope for the best for atheists and Christians alike, and let God sort it all out in the end. I'm going to let God be in control.

What I don't like is anyone's specific belief system trying to control the laws and legislators of this country. Aside from the common Judeo-Christian ethics of "Don't Murder", "Don't Steal", "Don't Rape", etc. (which most religions and belief systems and atheism agree is normal, civilized behavior), there should be no other influence of religion upon man's laws. Now an extremist Christian will argue that abortion is murder, but so is capital punishment. And isnt it murder or at least negligence to willingly allow a woman to die? The Bible does not give advice and clarity on many of these questionable topics and hot issues, but it also does not give liberty to fill in the blanks and insert your own personal interpretations and assumptions. Likewise, we should not assume that certain assumed beliefs should be inserted into law.

The great thing about the Constitution was when it was written and ratified, it was essentially very diverse groups of people coming to a common ground of laws and rules that they could all live under. If you image a cluster of circles, where each circle represents a group and its beliefs, then the gray overlap of all groups is the Constitution. Unless all groups can agree upon a new law or belief that falls in the middle gray area, then it's not part of the Constitution. All other laws, systems, and policies are derived from that gray area of common agreement. For one group to go and try to enforce its set of beliefs upon the whole group, goes against that agreement many years ago. In my mind, that's unpatriotic, unconstitutional. People exercising their beliefs inside of that agreement is what makes America great. The common agreement that I won't mess with you, and you won't mess with me. If you like the example I set in my belief, then feel free to come on over, but I'm not going to pass laws that force you come on over and adhere to my believe.

Good will to atheists in general, and your marching in Washington. May your rights not be trampled upon, and thank you for standing up for the Constitution that allows me to live free and believe in what I want.

but they seem to feel an obligation to try to get me to ACCEPT it for myself.

It's because the nature of a delusion is to hunger for others to accept it, because that is the one and only thing that can make a delusion seem real and legitimate. This is displayed by the often made argument (which is a defined logical fallacy) that for xyz religion that "lots of people believe in it, for a long time".

Lots of people once believed the earth was flat too, lots of people in Europe once believed the water to the west was the only thing between them and China.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him since the
creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that
are made, even his everlasting power and
divinity; that they may be without excuse:

because
that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but
became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened.

Professing themselves to be wise, they became
fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an
image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping
things.

Wherefore
God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts unto uncleanness, that their
bodies should be dishonored among themselves:

Rom 1:25 for that they exchanged the truth of God for
a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is
blessed for ever. Amen.

@W-2719163

The quote in context: "Atheism is so senseless. When I look at the solar system, I see the earth at the right distance from the sun to receive the proper amounts of heat and light. This did not happen by chance. The motions of the planets require a Divine arm to impress them." Sir Isaac Newton, Inventor, Scientist and teacher Isaac Newton, John Hudson Tiner, page 21 Mott Media, 1975

Newton had absolutly NO comprehension of the vastness of the universe. If he did I suspect his feelings would have changed. It's a matter of odds really. What are the odds that any one planet will be in just the right place for life? Pretty small but when you look at how many star systems are out there even incredibly small odds are guaranteed. We are here BECAUSE our planet happens to be just the right distance from the sun. In our little solar system the odds worked in our favor.

Well the Bible I read tells me I should simply love everyone, not accept their behavior but love. And we are actually able to judge but not the way many think and do. One has to go to the Greek to really know what judge means, it is used for 3 different Greek words.

Shuklack read Isaih 40:22 and the Bible says the Earth is a sphere, or circle(mistranslated). Now you can keep you belief but I ask could you give credit that this is an old writing and since it is the Old Test must be read in Original Hebrew.

And in Job wich has been proven to be one of the oldest writings ever, most likely metaphorical but read 26:7, speaks how they knew the Earth hung in an empty space.

I honestly don't know why people thought the Earth was flat, even the Greeks knew differently

@ differnet

Good for them. I hope to see them open their first homeless shelter, soup kitchen, hospital or other charitable service soon

I'm sure we will, as soon as we plunder,robb, steal and take whatever the "believers" took throughout history from their fellow "non-believers".

Dawkins admitted that there could have been beings for other planets that planted life here at the end, it wasn't just a hesitation but a compromise.

That statement is not any sort of compromise from Dawkins that I am aware of.... that's just a simple truth that such a thing is possible, and it's in fact one of the variety of "no-god-required' hypotheses for where life came from on this planet. I don't see how that statement is in any way counter to any of Dawkins' assertions.

I called out to this God I didn't believe in and my plea was answered, even was blessed with one miracle.

Please forgive me if I don't believe it was anything more than circumstance and coincidence. I have heard many people make many extraordinary claims, miracles, and whatnot. More often than not, these claims are little more than not placing credit where credit is due; much like a family thanking God for the miracle of saving their father, while the surgeon fresh out of emergency surgery gets but a handshake.

@Wagonmaster

Everything affects everything. This country was founded on the very faith which I am so free to pursue. An atheist is also free to practice whatever it is they don't believe. That's their right guaranteed under the Constitution.

However, as soon as one rule or law is changed that alters the historical significance by which this countries was foundded or the manner in which I choose to believe because that athiest / agnostic/ or whatever is offended, I have a problem.

In God We Trust!!! It is now and will remain so. So help me God!

Check the Treaty of Tripoli (1796) article 11.

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

There you have it from the founders. This is not a Christian nation, and was not founded on the Christian faith or any other faith.

@Alan-3015148

Do you really want to start quoting Bible scriptures? First off, to an atheist a bible scripture is as meaningful as a line from Dickens novel. Less so, actually, as the Dickens novel doesn't try to promote itself as fact. It would be something akin to a Muslim quoting the Quran or any of the other religious texts (). But if you want to quote Bible passages, should we also include the ones where slavery is condoned, and the punishment for a rapist is to pay 50 silver shekels to the girl's father and then marry her or the one where the girl who gets raped should be executed along with the rapist? How about stoning disobedient children to death? I could go on, but I'm sure you have an excuse for anything in the Bible that you don't like.

While I like many of the points made here, there is a lot of misinformation about what the founding fathers believed when they created our government. They never intended for the belief in god to be controlled by the government (which it now has become.) They believed that only those who believed in a omnipotent being would be able to govern because without these "values" there would be no internal belief system that would guarantee that those governing did what was "right". Now I do believe that everyone has their right to believe or not believe as they choose. My problem is with the stupidity of it all. If Atheism is truly a "religion" then we should be required to stop teaching evolution in school. Because the atheists required schools to stop teaching creation, isn't it the same thing? I for one have my own set of beliefs. I have several good friends who are either agnostic or atheists, but we do agree that the issue for atheists is the perception that to be an atheist, you must believe that humans are the supreme intelligence here on earth. Many people view this as extremely self-centered and narcissistic. I don't view it either way because I have an open enough mind to see good and bad in all theories. My only anger comes when they tie up the court systems in order to further their agenda. Since the act of putting a cross alongside the road is outlawed, maybe religious folks should sue since the absence of any religious symbols is the symbol for atheism.

I'm a non-believer, but why would I attend a "coming out party" for a non-belief? I really think whether you believe or not, that's your business. Is it the aim of the organizers to make non-belief a religion in itself?

They believed that only those who believed in a omnipotent being would be able to govern because without these "values" there would be no internal belief system that would guarantee that those governing did what was "right".

Could you please point me to particular documents or the diaries of founders that might support your assertion, especially ones that might support the rather grand width of your assertion?

As far as I'm aware, the Constitution makes a provision that no litmus test on religion would be required to hold office, now if "they believed" such a thing was essential for good governance, why then would they explicitly prohibit against a test that would ensure such? Seems rather counter-intuitive.

Speaking of misinformation, your entire post would make an excellent example of such misinformation.



Is it the aim of the organizers to make non-belief a religion in itself?

No, because it's not; nor can it be; a religion. It can be other things... a community, a movement, a whatever.... but it's not a religion.

The purpose is to get support and attention, to bring it to the forefront, to become a voice in the social and political arena of the country. It's to show that secularists have a voice, and aren't afraid to use it. It's to show that secularists are here to stay. Also it is to encourage a a debate (because they know they will win; the place that religious dogma and negative opinions about atheism dies is under the light of critical thinking and debate)

As a Christian let me just I couldn't care less about this. If they want to have a gathering, good for them, why should it matter to me? I'm a little confused on what they will be doing at this gathering, but it is always fun to be with people who think the same as you so go for it. If this is a let's get together and bash religion party I just think that is sad, but again I don't care, it makes no difference to me.

Dawkins explicilitely believes life arose on Earth from all materials from the Earth. To admit to anything else is a compromise, and Dawkins problem with accepting ID is the fact we can call that being God. He truly believes in any Theory that says life start here on Earth without outside influence.

waitwut: just because you're an atheist doesn't mean you cannot read the Bible or that people can quote in what they believe. It's a great way to research ones belief, also when reading it we must remember of the time and culture used to describe principles and how their is a stark difference between to two test., which shows growth while just telling great stories, like the left handed assasin, for some reason we had to know he was left handed.

Marty: "If Atheism is truly a "religion" then we should be required to stop teaching evolution in school."

Oh please. Evolution is science. It has nothing to do with religion. ZERO. If your faith can't deal with what science reveals about the real world, then YOU are the one with a problem.

No Marty. Atheism is "no religion", as opposed to theism. Which is why the push to separate "atheism" from "no religion" is completely bizarre, whether it's an "atheist" or a "theist" trying to do it.

Creationism is NOT on par with evolution, simply put... to say that they are is a huge mistake, it's as simple as that. Creationism is NOT a theory, it should not be taught as such. If there is a "theology" elective... fine... anything goes! To be taught non science alongside science? That doesn't make any sense, none at all! As to the supposed assumption that atheists assume humans are "the supreme intelligence"... I hugely beg to differ. I doubt atheists would assert we could not possibly have come from apes (we are the third chimpanzee to be exact)... creationists would. After all, we are "made in god's image" and could not possibly have evolved from anything "lower"... which sounds self-centered and narcissistic? Debates being what they are, varying opinions coming from all over the place... I'm somewhat flabbergasted you came to the conclusion that evolutionary theory is narcissistic? That just sounds totally off base...

Marty: "They never intended for the belief in god to be controlled by the government (which it now has become.)"

No, the belief in God is unaddressed by the government, and that is the whole point. Government has never told you what you can or can't believe -- only what you can or can't promote using government funds.

I love the "separation of church and state" slogan used by so many to get religion out of the public, yet no problems with the government interfering with the church?

We want separation of Church and State, unless it is the state telling the religious establishment what to do.

Obama’s health department has dug in its heels, saying its decision to force employers to provide abortifacient birth control drugs will continue as planned – although faith-based groups will be given a year reprieve. In response, U.S. Catholic bishops have not minced words, vowing to fight the order as “literally unconscionable.”

Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius announced Friday that faith-based entities like hospitals and universities will have until August 1, 2013 to provide employees with free birth control as part of their insurance packages. The mandate will also force such groups to pay for sterilizations and, because the FDA has approved abortifacient drugs such as Ella as “contraception.”

“In effect, the president is saying we have a year to figure out how to violate our consciences,” said Cardinal-designate Dolan.

If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people.

- House

I'm sure we will, as soon as we plunder,robb, steal and take whatever the "believers" took throughout history from their fellow "non-believers".

You do realise all those people, guilty or not of whatever you are accusing them of, are all dead right? Are you going to rob graves or steal from people that have done nothing wrong?

@ Linda & Kathy

You are a perfect example on imposing your view unto other thinking people. And no thank you, please DON'T pray for me. (As to the "afterlife" wouldn't you be the ones surprised if there is none?)

Religion is a scourge on humanity and I for one am happy to see rational people standing up and demanding to be heard for a change!!

How arrogant, hypocritica, etc for "differnet" to snidely suggest that somehow organized religion has a "lock" on charity and dhelping others. You are totally wrong, and actualy it's such a no-brainer that "EVEN" agnostics, atheists, etc. do contributte toward charities, not only for humans but for animals and all of creation, that one hardly has to assume they DONT just because all the churches seem to be constantly trumpeting their "do gooderism.) Many, manytorganized Christian (not to say Muslim) religions have no regard for animals or plants or even nature in general because the "revealed" religions dependant on one man's philosoophy, such as Jesus, Mohammed and theJewish religion (Abraham maybe) teach their followers that humans are superior to all other creatures andn everything else on the earth (see Book of Genesis) and humans (male humans mostly) are just made by God to lord it all over the rest of the world. Kind of like an assistant manager to God, the almighty. That's why many, many agnostics, I'd saymore than less and if you want to say, atheists, are animal lovers and care forthe rfest of ther world besides the narrow mankind that the Chrisstian, Muslim, and even Jewish religions preach...Bet you dolalrs to Mitt Romney's fortune that more of the non-believers care for andn fight against animal cruelty and neglect, global warming and the rest of the challenges to the planet stemming from noxious hatreds of birth control of all things, than all the practicing mmebers of various rrevealed religions combined. Exceper perhaps those who truly try to follow Jesus' various sayings such as the Golden Rule, "let ye who is without sin cast the first stone" (to hypocrites), and other things that true Christians believe requires them to be kinder, gentler and humane toward all of life, not just people or people of their own religion, or sect, more likely.

He truly believes in any Theory that says life start here on Earth without outside influence.

Hmmm, from what I read of Dawkins he makes it quite plain that he thinks it is far more likely that life arose here on earth (and wasn't seeded with already living organisms). He doesn't discount the hypothesis that a meteor may have provided a catalyst for life to arise, though. He just doesn't think it came from offworld (but, as a scientist, he won't discount the possibility) Which is why I wouldn't even consider that a 'compromise', because it really is perfectly in line with his beliefs.

That's often something that IDers latch onto, they somehow think their argument is more valid simply because they can say they "know" something (even if unproven), and they pick on scientists because they won't say they "know" something unless it is proven, which somehow to IDers makes science less valid...

I think what Ben Stein had there was a misunderstanding of abiogenesis and Dawkins stance on it.

Stein also seems to like mixing abiogenesis with evolution, two very different theories standing on very different amounts of evidence, and then creates strawmen out of that misunderstanding.



We want separation of Church and State, unless it is the state telling the religious establishment what to do.

If the Church wants federal funding then it must abide by federal regulations. Not that difficult to understand really.

I'm guessing that the Church is being forced to take federal funding? Is that what is happening?

@sandtrich

I'm a non-believer, but why would I attend a "coming out party" for a non-belief? I really think whether you believe or not, that's your business. Is it the aim of the organizers to make non-belief a religion in itself?

I don't know about you, but almost all of my friends are Christian. One of my friends thinks atheists are evil and he's not afraid to tell me all about how horrible "they" are. He's been one of my best friends for almost 20 years. I would love to tell him the truth about me, but I have no idea how it will affect our friendship. He doesn't know because I pretty much agree with you; it's no one's business what I believe or don't believe. But because I remain silent, I have to sit there and listen to him say terrible things about me (even though he doesn't know that's what he's doing).

Also, if you're not "out" then there's a good chance you won't stand up and voice your opinion when you see things that need to be changed. Like Jessica Ahlquist. She spoke out against her school displaying a prayer. If she weren't out, she would have kept her head down and toed the line and not spoke up for what was right.

The goal is to get people to not be ashamed or afraid to be able to admit what they (don't) believe. To encourage people to be willing to stand up for their rights. For example, there's so much religious pressure in the military from Christians that many soldiers, whether they don't believe or just have different beliefs than fundamentalist Christianity, have to either endure religious proselytism or join in prayer ceremonies or attend religious concerts/sermons because they are afraid of reprisal from superiors or fellow soldiers if they don't. Imagine if your career depended on you not telling your boss that you would rather not go to church with him.

ScoMata,

Please look up the word "sarcasm"

No Cody, we ALL will not.

If that is what you believe, great for you. It is not what I believe.

Organized religions and what's done in their names, has been the source of most of the strife in the world. Keep them out of my life and my government and in their respective house of worship, where they belong.

yea maciej, when you're collapsed with a Highly Rated star (mine too), you know you've struck a nerve with the trolls. Badge of honor around here. :)

CYGNUS X

Yours is the best post I have read in a long time. I am also a Christian, probably more conservative than you, but I agree that many of today's issues are not explicitly addressed in the Bible.

Your tone of love and generosity towards those that don't share your views is a good example I often fall short of.

If we had more Christians espousing views like yours, our religion would be much more accepted.

My only regret is your post wasn't higher up the vine, so more people could see it.

Sucklack (#1.103)

Bill Gates is an agnostic & his wife Melinda is a very devoted Roman Catholic.

Meaning what? That Melinda's faith trumps Bill's lack thereof?

Actually I was only disputing a statement made that implied both Bill & Melinda were atheists. To go further, I suspect that Melinda's deep religious beliefs may have had a major influence on Bill spending so much money on charity work, but I don't know or care whether this has any basis in fact.

Atheists and religious people are just people. No one's better. No one's worse. No one's smarter than the other

And neither of them are "right".

If we evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?

Lol, when did you hear this silly argument?

That argument only serves to display your complete lack of education on the science of evolution theory, I'd suggest studying it some yourself before parroting what someone with an equal lack of education says about it.

1) We didn't evolve from monkeys, we evolved from apes.

2) Monkeys and humans have a common ancestor, ie Monkeys and Humans are both separate branches from the same limb.

Do you think the organs of your bodies were not perfectly made by a God so that your body works as he designed you

They aren't perfectly made, which is why they fail or deteriorate, and which is why we also have organs that are no longer completely necessary or useful (gall bladder for example) or why we have bones that no longer serve a purpose (tail bone).

A great explosion and we and the earth just "happened"?

It's an expansion, actually... of space and time... that is still occuring.... it is measurable and detectable and observable. When one can measure the rate of expansion, one can then figure out how long ago this expansion began - thus we have the "Big Bang" theory. It's a mathematical and observable truth. You can even measure it yourself with the proper equipment.

The formation of planets around stars happened much later, and this process is also observable (stars in various stages of creation can be observed, ie "Pillars of Creation" is a famous image from Hubble that shows stars being born out of nebulas) and models based on hard physics and gravitational theory show quite accurate how this occurs. I'd suggest looking up 'accretion disk" for further reading.

There are computer programs you can get that run off physics and gravity formulas that you can even try out yourself that can show this process quite accurately.

Talk about insecurity, sheesh! If they were so comfortable with their position, they wouldn't need to broadcast it. I suppose they want to get together for mutual self validation and assurance. Whatever makes them happy.

I've been an atheist for all my life, 72 years. Anyone who touts any belief, to me, is suspect. Deists can credit some god or other but where do atheists affix the blame.

sonny1973

I do not know what news you are watching, but the issue has been on NBC, ABC and CBS nightly news broadcast every night this week. I have not heard any judgments just what is being said and by whom ever wants the sound bite.

Love the Sinner, Hate the Sin

Conservative Lady,

Please point to the Biblical verse where Jesus instructed you to "Hate" anything... Last I checked, Jesus promoted the idea of removing all hate from your heart. So please show me where Jesus supports a person embracing hatred for anything.

Willy: " If they were so comfortable with their position, they wouldn't need to broadcast it."

Then why do "believers" do it so much?

Conservative Lady, since it is rather obvious that neither we nor the Earth are actually Perfect, what does this say about your conclusions?

Tether

Yes, they were Christian....but they escaped from Europe because the nations there had Theocracies based on each nations interpretation of what THEY thought a Christian should be....and if not, the govts harassed them, Inquisitions them and in England arrested them and took all there property.

That is why we have IN GOD WE TRUST......not In Christ we trust.......and, the father of our country was in Fact a Mason (as were several other founding fathers and signatories to the Constitution) and all that Masons require is that you have a belief in something bigger than yourself. God can be described as that force that an individual feels has the ability to protect you etc.

Shulack, you are exactly correct with what you have read on Dawkins and it is exactly what I said. The problem with the meteor coming to Earth is the theory pertaining to it. Scientist believe that living organisms livig within comets sheltered from space by the makeup of the comets coming to Earth as meteors planted life here. Also with that theory is that there were different types that evolved into specific living things on our planet.That would tell me with Dawkins stance, he couldn't agree with that theory.

Again with ID that opens up the discussion would you consider that being God.

I hate the idea of god. For supposedly being a loving deity, the great invisible dictator in the sky is kind of an a-hole. I also would say I actually hate religion, but I don't hate people for being religious. Most of my family is Christian. Many of my friends are also religious. It's complicated I guess. I don't respect people's religious beliefs, but I respect their having them. And unless they actually want to debate, I'm fine with just not talking about it.

As opposed to what I've seen others say, I would encourage people to actually pick up the Bible. It's very obvious that a great many Christians don't actually read the thing themselves.

Also, I disagree with arguments I've seen saying that it's wrong for atheists to organize. Any group that is collectively persecuted and provoke has a right to stand up for itself. That doesn't make it a religion. You don't really have to conform when uniting under a common cause.

I am an agnostic atheist, and I personally have no problem with religious people believing religious things and living according to their religious beliefs... HOWEVER... I have a supreme amount of dislike for when their religious doctrine enters the realm of public policy.

When I see a politician stating that he is a "good christian" as an example of why he should be elected, I immediately have reservations. I mean, I want my leaders in government to be logical and rational, but the heart-felt belief in talking snakes, rib-women and helpful fish that burp up stranded sailors is neither logical or rational.

Seriously, I would like to ask a question of Christians or Muslims or Jews or whatever.. What would you say if someone told you that the absolute truth is tsunamis are caused by Poseidon farting under the water? Would think that was the most ridiculous, silly and irrational thing ever? How is it any more ignorant than saying that a woman's menstrual cycle is a punishment from god for eating a "forbidden fruit"? Oh yes, there are christians that wholeheartedly believe such nonsense as that.

I've said before and I'll say it again, I respect your right to believe what you want, but I do not have to respect those beliefs themselves.

I see a lot of Christians touting on and on about how they are persecuted by atheists, but in my day-to-day life, I see a lot more to the contrary. For example, my wife who is also an agnostic atheist, must pretend to be a christian at her job because anyone who has come out and said they were anything but a christian, has been fired within a month of said revelation. Even if the person has a stellar work record, a reason is found get rid of them. Her supervisor for several years let it slip that she was not a christian and within a month, her position was dissolved for "lack of need" and she was demoted. Then a couple of months later, her position was re-opened and instead of giving her position back, she was overlooked for the promotion and the job was given to a very vocal christian woman with half of her experience and an abysmal work record. Thus far they have not been able to find a reason to fire her, but they keep piling more and more on her, in what appears to be a concerted effort to either cause to make a mistake or drive her to quit.

This is just one example.. I have felt it as well in my years in the workforce. Unlike my wife, I'm won't hide or pretend if someone asks me my beliefs. I remember one instance where a supervisor at a factory I worked at gave me twice the work of my coworkers, when I mentioned this fact to him, he said "Why don't you ask God to help you with that? Oh right! You don't have one of those!" and walked away laughing.

I think this gathering is a good thing and I'd like to see it become a more national trend, as it will let those who are living under the shadow of religious domination know that there is an ever-growing faction of our society that agree with their disbelief and it's okay to feel the way they do.

And btw I have no issue with them assembling, they are free to do so. My issue comes with people being indecent with others because they disagree. There is no room for that on any side of the fence you live. Respect leads to greater relations more than name calling.

To Christians,

Many of you claim that to save your soul, you must have belief... faith... acceptance... or "know God." Basically, your belief is that knowing God, and following his path, will lead you to salvation.

So what of the millions of people who God put on this earth, in time periods and areas that Christianity had not spread? God is "all knowing"... and thus he "knew" that Christianity, himself, had not spread to certain areas in certain time periods... yet he knowingly put people there. The America's before Christianity crossed the ocean. Countries walled off from outside influence. Tribes in remote areas. God knowingly put millions of people in these locations, knowing they would never hear of him and would thus be doomed to hell.

So what of them? Why would a God who supposedly "loves" everyone put people in a place where he knows they will never hear of him, and thus they will be doomed to hell? He damned them knowing they would never have a chance at salvation. How is that "love"?

Talk about insecurity, sheesh! If they were so comfortable with their position, they wouldn't need to broadcast it. I suppose they want to get together for mutual self validation and assurance. Whatever makes them happy.

Yeah, they might as well build these huge fancy buildings with towers, and every hour make loud clanging noises to remind everyone that they are there. They should have huge paintings and statues of their leaders made, and demand that they are put in every public space possible - especially courthouses and schools. Then they should start television stations and radio stations entirely devoted to their cause, broadcasting their most vocal and sweating atheist leaders for the whole nation to hear what they have to say. Those insecure little secularists should then do the pundit circuit, complaining about how the gov't keeps infringing on their rights.

Oh, and don't forget those stinking agnostics should probably create a whole genre of music singing about how awesome it is to be agnostic and how great their leaders are, and play it constantly on their radio stations and in their fancy buildings (also preferably in schools and courthouses)

Yaknow what they should also do? Stand on street corners and sidewalks and hand people atheist flyers! Yeah! Those insecure little wretches need that self affirmation and all. They should also create an Atheist Day of Celebration in December and demand to get off work for it, and have an Atheist Tree, and if anyone calls an Atheist Tree anything other than an ATHEIST Tree, they should throw a fit. Yaknow, because those little punks are just the type to steal holidays from other religious traditions and pretend it is their own.

Insecurity indeed.

To all of the Christians on your Bible-Soap boxes... If Jesus were to re-appear he would absolutely HATE the religious right wing (RRW) and those who perpetuate it's views. Jesus/Christianity espoused believes that the RRW abhors. Those politicians and their ilk who profess to be good Christians are the MOST hypocritical jackarses on the planet.

EXAMPLES:
The RRW views the poor as lazy and always wanting a hand-out. Poverty and Hunger are symptoms of this.

Deut. 15:7. If there is a poor man among you, one of your brothers, in any of the towns of the land which the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart, nor close your hand to your poor brother; but you shall freely open your hand to him, and generously lend him sufficient for his need in whatever he lacks.

Deut. 26:12. When you have finished paying the complete tithe of your increase in the third year, the year of tithing, then you shall give it to the Levite, to the stranger, to the orphan and the widow, that they may eat in your towns, and be satisfied.

Lev. 19:19ff. Now when you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap to the very corners of your field, neither shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest. Nor shall you glean your vineyard, nor shall you gather the fallen fruit of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the needy and for the stranger. I am the LORD your God.

Prov. 31:8ff. Open your mouth for the dumb, for the rights of all the unfortunate. Open your mouth, judge righteously, and defend the rights of the afflicted and needy.

Is. 58:66ff. Is this not the fast which I choose, to loosen the bonds of wickedness, to undo the bands of the yoke, and to let the oppressed go free, and break every yoke? Is it not to divide your bread with the hungry, and bring the homeless poor into the house; when you see the naked, to cover him, and not to hide yourself from your own flesh?

Jer. 22:3. Do justice and righteousness, and deliver the one who has been robbed from the power of his oppressor. Also do not mistreat or do violence to the stranger, the orphan, or the widow; and do not shed innocent blood in this place.

Luke 12:33. "Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves purses which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near, nor moth destroys."

Luke 3:11. And [John the Baptist] would answer and say to them, "Let the man with two tunics share with him who has none, and let him who has food do likewise."

Mt. 5:42. Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

Christian/Jesus/Biblical views of those who help the poor/hungry

Prov. 29:7. The righteous is concerned for the rights of the poor; the wicked does not understand such concern.

1 John 3:17. But whoever has the world's goods, and beholds his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him?

Luke 6:33ff. "And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, in order to receive back the same."

2 Cor 9:7. Let each one do just as he has purposed in his heart; not grudgingly or under compulsion; for God loves a cheerful giver.

I am an agnostic so I believe that there is something greater than us (regardless of whether we can know what it is) and therefore I attempt to live my life according to the moral and ethical belief systems established by ALL religions. I also believe that people are free to do as they wish as long as it does not adversely affect the greater good for ALL human beings.

Some how I doubt that an atheist cares whether he is alone or not, I know I don't. It is of no concern to me what you believe and it's nothing to me if you approve of my belief. We each have the right to believe whatever.

ientist believe that living organisms livig within comets sheltered from space by the makeup of the comets coming to Earth as meteors planted life here.

I wouldn't say they believe it really, they just think it's one possibility. There are lots of possibilities that scientists entertain when it comes to the origin of life - the one they CAN'T entertain because it would totally make null and void the purpose of science all together - is the super-natural.

Now, if the super-natural can ever be shown to be true, it would no longer be called 'super'-natural... because once proven, it becomes natural, and thus a part of scientific consideration.

I'm a "humanist", skeptic, secularist, even an agnostic. I enjoy Dawkins writings, along with many reasoned people. I do not hate the concept of some thing, or being, who understands, or maybe is the architect of "the force of life". I do intensely despise "religionists" and the goofy traditions which the "controlling loud mouths" draw from, interpret, then rack the lesser minded and ignorant, with their desired degree of validation for their hate mongering and fear peddling. Like "Sandtrich", so long as these "Atheists" aren't attempting to establish a religion, everyone should have a good time. Religionists have furnished us all enough comedic fodder to keep everyone laughing into perpetuity.

Above all else, respect others. Address issues and arguments and refrain from making personal attacks. If you see something disrespectful or inappropriate, report it - rather than further inflaming the situation.

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory,^[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response^[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.^[

"Talk about insecurity, sheesh! If they were so comfortable with their position, they wouldn't need to broadcast it. I suppose they want to get together for mutual self validation and assurance. Whatever makes them happy."

No, broadcasting ones belief and proselytizing is fine. People do it all the time. If you like something, no matter what it is, it's only natural to talk about it with others and hope they like it too. You can show how you're proud of who you are. It's called being SOCIAL and forming part of a SOCIETY.

Getting defensive everytime someone doesn't believe like you do, putting down someone's beliefs constantly, hurling childish insults, and stuffing one's own supposed superiority down the throats of everyone given the chance is insecure. It's called being ANTI-SOCIAL.

These people are liars. They believe in not believing. Can't they just accept belief as a natural part of the human psyche and stop harassing people?

I'm just as against religious bigotry as much as the next person, but the key word here is bigotry. Non religious bigotry is just as bad, and it shocks and sickens me educated men, scientists, would even take part of this.

Cygnus_X-1: Thank you, thank you, thank you. I wish all Christians shared your tolerant beliefs, live and let live I always say. They might win over a few more converts if they were clear-minded and rational like you are. Unfortunately, as someone who grew up in the church, I have only ever met maybe 2-3 people in my entire life who I feel truly lived the way Jesus intended.

I also agree with one of the earlier posters who said they cannot live a lie... Christianity does not add up for them, so to pretend to believe just to get into heaven would be deceitful. I feel the exact same way. I was raised to believe that the earth was literally created in 6 days, and I simply cannot force my brain to accept such a notion. I'd rather be honest and happy and free, than to go back to being afraid, trapped, and miserable like I was all through my life until my 20s. I wish more Christians could understand this point of view, and that it is just as valid as theirs.

Can't we all just get along?!? :)

I'm just as against religious bigotry as much as the next person, but the key word here is bigotry. Non religious bigotry is just as bad, and it shocks and sickens me educated men, scientists, would even take part of this.

I have not seen it this way.

They're protesting the perceived inequality of influence wielded by religious believers, who are regularly courted by politicians. We see it a lot in elections and most of it is just bluster. I think they're a bit misguided (if you want to make a politician forget God, just shove some money in his pocket). But I don't see this as bigotry.

This is probably a response to what happened to birth control coverage in Catholic institutions. Even though most Catholics take brith control, Catholic institutions succeed in getting the Obama administration to back down. Now, it could be said that, this Birth control debacle is an example of overarching religious doctrine ruining it for the rest of us.

But what the real moral of this story is the weakness of the Obama admistration and the weakness of Catholics who need and want birth control but won't fight for it.

But I don't have any issue with the rally.

I won't be attending the space junkie party, life is much more meaningful.

Oh stop playing the victim. I hear people preach their religious beliefs all the time yet I don't claim to be victimized by it. There is a great deal of hostility against Atheists in our society, therefore it can take some courage to stand up and say "I don't need to believe in god." It's not a religion, its not a belief system, its logic based on science and reason. Is disbelief in Bigfoot also a religion? No, and neither is disbelief in a supernatural being controlling our fates. It can be a hard road to take, but it is very fulfilling knowing that you are seeing reality with vision unclouded by religious dogma.

myfish wrote:

Your religious beliefs are yours alone-and they must end where they start infringing on my mine

And I would say the exact same thing to you......we have ongoing infringement by the non-religious against those who believe, yet, the religious are supposed to take it. But in contrast, you don't have to take it. I'm not saying that you do this yourself, as I don't know you, but the principle should be equal, not weighted toward the non-religious. Acceptance should be a 2 way street.

Actually, I think religion is a product of evolution. I'm not at all sure, whether we are evolving into it or out of it. Is it more prevalent or less?

IndieParty, the Bible says be judged(meaning from God not man) on what you know. Also there is being lead to do what God would want us to do when talking about treating fellow man. That's a whole other discussion, plus we aren't to say who God gave grace to.

Notliborcon: You are correct, that is why we shouldn't spout something we don't do, on the other hand I just point out that many far left politicians and say people in hollywood rather buy million dollar homes and jets than take that overflow of cash and feed all the hungry. And I say this to professing Christians also, if we did what the Bible states to do we wouldn't need the government to help out. But, we as people have greed set in.

Shuklack: ok ok semantics but that is a better way to state it, they entertain or see the possibility

Shuklack, it also would stay super-natural because we wouldn't be able to replicate it, at least I would say it was super since we couldn't do it ourself, kinda like superman. being a man didn't make him super but the abilities he had made him super. yes I use some of the most simplistic things to convey my thougths ahah

Well, journaljournal, using your logic re: catholics and birth control....most people don't observe speed limits, does that mean we should just eliminate them? How many times does it have to be said that the issue is not the pros/cons of contraception; the issue is a would-be dictator decreeing that religious beliefs guaranteed by the constitution can be stiflled if he says so because he has to satisfy the women's lib militants in this election year when his azz is in deep kimchi.

Shuklack, et. al,

Thank you for your bravery. It is a simple fact that it is hard being an atheist in this world. Others would shun you and ridicule you for your beliefs. I admit I keep mine hidden for fear of being ostracized. My family knows my beliefs, but the general public, I would not yet dare. I live in far too conservative of an area.

It is sad that in our post-civil rights society, both atheists and homosexuals (not one, but support thier campaign for equality) still have true fear of being equal.

Well, journaljournal, using your logic re: catholics and birth control....most people don't observe speed limits, does that mean we should just eliminate them? How many times does it have to be said that the issue is not the pros/cons of contraception; the issue is a would-be dictator decreeing that religious beliefs guaranteed by the constitution can be stiflled if he says so because he has to satisfy the women's lib militants in this election year when his azz is in deep kimchi.

That's just the thing. Everyone says "Catholics believe birth control is wrong." The truth is, Catholics use birth control on a daily basis. Not a few, not half but 95%, the same percentage as non-Catholics.

This belief that "birth control is wrong" isn't held by anyone at all. Obama wasn't violating the constitution.

So this idea that religious people are ruining everything and have too much power is not true. The rich, influential leaders of the religions are ruining things, even for religious people.

maciej - with regard to your comment to mks:

"Dear mks...And it doesn't matter at the end if you believe or not in Him, because He believes in you - and being merciful, if you live a good life, He will probably save you. I wish it to you with all my heart."

Where in the world did you come up with that statement? It absolutely DOES matter what you believe "at the end"! God is not only merciful, he is just, and if mks or any of us dies without having chosen to put our faith in him for eternity, we die lost. Period. And there is nothing more alone than that.

Army you just live around the wrong people, both are highly accepted today in that there are large populations of both. We just had Washington vote for same sex marriages and I don't think Dawkins would feel comfortable doing this if he felt endangered. All I can say is be true to yourself, and if people think a certain way towards you then it's they that live with that and are eaten up by it.

However, Shuklack does have good comments, even though I disagree, because you can tell he has researched not just believed a certain way. Beliefs without research are usually empty.

Jock 1.150

Nobody said the "believers" were any different than the atheists since they both espouse their particular religions. Yes, there will be some atheists that would deny their belief system is a religion but it most certainly is, complete with logos and icons. As I previously stated, whatever makes them happy.

mikedesi0804... absolutely correct. there are some democraps that do this as well and ALL people are fallible.

the only reason i "pick" on the RRW is because they are the ones pushing their religious beliefs (anti-abortion, anti-contraceptives and anti-marriage equality) the LOUDEST. This country was established to maintain a separation between religion and affairs of state yet we see things like the Va legislature passing bills to essentially outlaw abortion (personhood) and that force a woman to undergo a transvaginal ultrasound if they wish to obtain an abortion. This is an affront to the concept of separation of church and state and a trampling of personal freedom.

thanks for promoting a cordial discussion as opposed to those on these boards (including me sometimes) who would rather attack or insult.

mikedesi,

I am not saying what, or who, God gave grace to... nor I am speaking for God. I was commenting on what modern day Christians (MAN) teaches. According to their beliefs (the beliefs of MAN), their Christian God is the only way to earn salvation. Thus, their beliefs dictate a God who has knowingly placed people on this earth, knowing that they are damned.

Simply saying that "we aren't to know" is a cop-out. But I will play along, YOU also "aren't to know" if YOUR belief is correct. YOU could be wrong. Given the fact that you base your beliefs on the writing of MAN, writing which has been altered over generations, writing by those who are inherently sinners... it is entirely possible that you are following an incorrect belief. Is that verse you follow part of the original text? Was it added during the Constantine time? Was it one of the many that King James changed or added?

The fact remains that modern day Christians follow a belief that damns non-believers to hell. If those non-believers are simply born in a time a region that Christianity had not spread, they simply pass it off as "God's will"... despite the fact that it contradicts the notion of a "good God". I simply pose the question... the same question that got me kicked out of church at the age of 12. Apparently, I am not supposed to question the rules... even though God supposedly gave me a mind capable of the critical thinking required to pose the question I am not to ask. It's all very contradictory.

@wet willy - Is that why religious people get together each day of the week when they attend their mass? Silly, willy.

I find it hilarious to see people saying America was founded by Christians.

There are a few tribes of NATIVE AMERICANS that would like to have a word with you about that. Those smallpox blankets didn't kill them all.

Indie I'm not adding a cop out but rather answering your question of what about people who haven't heard of God or Jesus Christ. The Bible states he who knows to him it's a sin. like me, I over eat a lot, I'm not overweight but I know to eat that way isn't right so to me that is a sin because I have been taught and exposed to the teachings. And that is what Grace is, the full mercy of God to whom he sees fit not us, again I am simply answering a question you raised, if you have heard the gospel then you are accountable and if you haven't heard then I am in no position to say. I'm sure there are Christians that proclaim the teaching even if you haven't heard you're damned, but I tell you there are plenty that know that you will be judged on what you know and that includes the ignorant, as in it's true definition, will be judged. And that is why I say God extends his Grace to whomever he wills. And God always welcomes questions like why. Again, be judged on what you know will also apply to those who have never heard the gospel, and God could easily give them Grace.

notliborcon, hey I love debate just like the next guy but am just so turned off by what this country has turned into. I know there is freedom of speech, but believe people take it to the extreme because that is how you are heard. I real admit that my faith is what I vote on when it comes to life and death, but know many of like faith that believe in the death penalty but no abortion. For me, I don't believe in either becasue to me the are both murder, I honestly don't care what the offense by the criminal. I just think if people were completely consistant with their belief then there wouldn't be so much disrespect, again goes for both sides. I do believe in separation of church and state so we should try to keep beliefs out of making laws, on that note, since I am a Christian I do not by any means put my faith in a government created by men. I would have no problem backing that one up with the astrocities committed time after time. We as a people need to hold them accountable and we fail at that too

Indie I also will add that there are many people in the church that aren't Christians. Jesus will say to them he never knew them even though the will profess to be his people. Again I'm suppose just show love and not compromise my belief and he is suppose to do the judging, when it comes to Salvation

I think if anybody that can't make it to the rally, but still wants to show their support, as well as show our numbers, wear a red Capital "A" on your shirt. Get out and be seen. And don't force your viewpoint on others, like a lot of religious people do, but if anyone asks about your BIG red A, then tell them.

Atheists are like gay people they want to step out and let every Tom Dick and harry who they are all while saying religion, more so the God from which we ascended is a joke..I don't give a dam what gay people do..

I understand there are small groups of Christians trying to push their religion but there are Billions of Christians and I'm not close to being like them.. My soul belongs to one only, so stop twisting my story.

I know and have spoken to many Christians, and people of other faiths, who are very good people. However, I thought I would pass this on to those of you who would be open to this idea. Many Christians FEAR not blindly believing in a God. They cannot accept the fact if there is no God, there is no future for them in any sense after death. It is this fear of the END which binds them to their faith. I am NOT saying this is true for all Christians, just many I have had a discussion with. I am myself agnostic and not atheist. The fact is I just don't actually know if there is a Supreme Being or not. But I am not afraid of any God. Why would I want to fear the unknown? Why would any "ALL just, ALL merciful, and ALL knowing God" punish anyone for their ignorance in not knowing God? Are we susposed to believe in the word of a church, pastor, priest, minister, pope, etc? Tell me FACTUALLY why I should believe! Faith, is believing in the unknown. Why would anyone believe 100% in anything which is not provable?

IndieParty: just saw your post on hate. Jesus says to hate your mother, father .... in Luke. Since Jesus represented Pure and True Love he was driving home that if you love him more than even your family then you in turn will show them more love and it will be pure and true. He uses strong language just as we would when passionate about something

I have no doubt that the Old Testament of the Bible was written largely by people who didn't have the good sense to say "I don't know" when asked a question like "Where did we come from?" Then, to make the story more believable they said that it was the "Word of God" and if you don't accept the Bible story you are a sinner and will spend the rest of eternity in Hell. And to make Jesus Christ more "holy" the New Testament had to include stories of miracles, like turning water to wine and walking on water. And who could possibly accept Jesus Christ as "savior" unless he was born from a sexless union and rose from the dead? Unfortunately, the stories had side effects such as the implication that sex is too "dirty" for the birth of the savior and that it is necessary to believe events that violate the laws of nature in order to be saved.

Well Scrambolo, you bring up some good questions... and it's true, some people are just more comfortable with the thought that God exists and some are more comfortable believing that this life is all there is and there is nothing after this life is over.

Now, the reasons vary as to why this is more comfortable one way or the other.

I'm far more comfortable believing God exists. This is actually because of what I learned in science class about our world and the life on it.

However, some of the same people in that same class heard the same lesson and decided not to believe in God.

It's a personal thing.

Scrambolo, you are very correct. I am a Christian and it blows my mind how many Christians fear Revelation.

I pose this question, what is the difference in faith in God and faith in life starting as a single cell organism? No one was there to see it happen, and I do understand fossil records but still all the scientist talk of different theories. Theirs is a faith of a different kind since as you stated faith is believing in the unkown. And I know they admit that they do not know, which is different in belief in God is a known. They do leave it open to discussion where there is no discussion in belief in God.

Fear is a lack of Faith, not my saying but the Bible.

Power keg, meet match. Match, powd-BOOM!

That's my impression of this forum.

Mostly I'm on the side of science, but I'm more for civil discourse and will gladly vote up any Christian who expresses good will to his fellow man without the threat of Hell veiled behind their speech. The moment you pull Hell out, it's like pulling a gun out of a holdster or telling someone to f---- off. It is treated like a threat and an insult, and not as a matter of fact. Insults, threats of Hell, accusations of wrong doing. These things only get people to put up their "walls", get defensive, and justify themselves endlessly. Just like you do.

When conversing with each other remember: We are not creatures of logic and reason, we are creatures of pride and ego.

It doesn't matter what religion or lack thereof you have, or what reasons you attribute to this truth. The above statement is true of humanity, and a very wise observation made by Dale Carnegie.

I believe the world will be a better place if everyone were to espouse the ideas, philosophies, and teachings of the book "How to Win Friends and Influence People" rather than everyone adhering to the Bible or science-based philosophy. In fact I think there should be a way to work "How to Win Friends and Influence People" into schools.

mikedesi

If you really understood the fossil record as you say you do you would understand that their is a vast difference between religious "faith" and the confidence that scientists have in the scientific method and reliance on concrete evidence in all of their theories. Religious people refuse to admit what they do not know, and that mindset prevents learning.

scrambolo

I know and have spoken to many Christians, and people of other faiths, who are very good people. However, I thought I would pass this on to those of you who would be open to this idea. Many Christians FEAR not blindly believing in a God. They cannot accept the fact if there is no God, there is no future for them in any sense after death. It is this fear of the END which binds them to their faith

I'll agree with you to a certain extent, I choose to believe in God because it's better to be safe than sorry, but I truly hope that when I die there's nothing, everything else seems more exhausting than living.

Don: No one understands the fossil record entirely. :)

It's just a bunch of bones that can be put together in whatever order (biologically and chronologically). It's very rare to find a complete skeleton. The "fossil record" is mostly bone fragments that, at best, is one snapshot of one animal in a vast history stretching billions of years.

It'll take more than that to convince a lot of people. In fact, most evolutionary biologist point to other things besides fossil evidence to support their theories because there's just not enough fossil evidence to explain everything they want to say happened.

mikedesi

I'm sure that you believe that your faith is in the Bible and in God, but if you are a Christian your faith is actually in men, men that in most cases you don't even know.

Genesis was written by a man (almost certainly a man, because women were never educated in those days) but no one knows that man's name, age, education or even where he lived, let alone how he came to know all of those things he wrote. Who decided that these words were the "word of God"? Answer: MEN. Who decided that the penalty for non-believers was to be denied entrance into the "Kingdom of Heaven" and "life everlasting". MEN.

It's pretty obvious to a rational person that Christians place a great deal of faith in men who they don't know and call it faith in God.

Don, inspiration comes in many different forms, some good some bad. Men were inspired to write the books in the bible, just as people were inspired by something external or internal to write, paint, scuplt....... and some people say they were inspired by bad things to commits crimes. People inspired to become doctors because of an internal desire to help others and some inspired to makes a lot of money. These men I don't know all say they were inspired by God in their writings so why should I question their belief in their inspiration??

Also there are always holes in the fossil record that scientist use nothing but theory(something that most likely cannot be proven concrete) to fill in the gaps, they themselves are inspired to the point they engross themselves in proving their theories. They are inspired by the pursuit of knowledge. Again back to Scientific Method, usually just steps to come to a conclusion in a rational way. They accept several different theories of how life started here on Earth. Faith in God narrows it down to one. Trust me I do not dismiss them as dumb or even close to being dumb, they are highly highly intelligent and have giving their lives to their belief of evolution and the beginning of life, but they admit themselves to not finding the missing links.

waitwut - Sorry to hear the story with your friend. Your situation is exactly why we need a more vocal presence. Too many people don't know that they know atheists. Too many people are afraid to come out to their friends and family.

We shouldn't have to lie to make believers comfortable. We should be honest and shine the light on all the misinformation they have which is the source of their discomfort. We need to replace the atheist caricature they have created with the atheist reality they live and work with day after day.

Don, I left out one thing, I am confident in my faith just as much as they are confident in their theories. Theories that have to be made because there isn't concrete evidence.

I find the intolerance of those who smugly look down on religious folks to be as repugnant as the intolerance of those who look down on those who don't share their religion.

We all believe or not according to our own hearts and minds. I enjoy hearing what you believe in, or not, and why. If nothing else, it tells me more about who you are, and it challenges my own beliefs and helps me to refine them.

What I can't stand is having someone who hasn't the slightest idea of what I believe in, or not, or why, trying to TELL me what I believe or trying to pigeonhole me just so that they will feel more secure in their own untested beliefs, smug in their own intolerant world that rejects the views of others without even examining those views.

mikedesi

You clearly do not understand what a scientific theory is. A scientific theory only exists because there is abundant evidence to support it, for example, the fossil record, DNA, and genetic evidence that supports the Theory of Evolution. The evidence is "concrete" and overwhelming.

I like that commonsense, and would like to add that when people of different beliefs read literature to support others beliefs with and mindset against it so they read it with bias and will use words from those readings to attack others. I wouldn't attack your beliefs in anyway and in my belief am not the one to try to change yours, all I can do is express mine and that's it.

great post

Don there are holes in all of that, and with dna is amazes me how huge a difference can make in only 1% difference.

mikedesi

With all due respect, you are arguing against science that you obviously do not understand at all. The scientific facts on which evolution, as well as other scientific theories, is based are measurable and repeatable. Peer review of the data is necessary for acceptance ..... peer review that requires that other scientists are able to independently arrive at the same conclusions. I accept that you are "amazed" by science, but I think what you really meant by your statement is that you don't believe that 1% difference can be so significant.

What you should accept, whether or not you choose to become educated in the science of evolution (or any other science) is that science theories are backed by overwhelming factual information and NO viable contrary evidence. None. Religious beliefs, on the other hand, are based on NO facts, only faith.

Your statement that belief in scientific theory is in some way similar to religious faith is completely erroneous.

I have NO problem with people who have different beliefs than myself. I DO have a problem with people attacking ME for any reason. We ALL need to live and let live and quit attacking others just because they are not carbon copies of ourselves.

Please point to the Biblical verse where Jesus instructed you to "Hate" anything

Indieparty, you may want to look up verses like Luke 14:26.

mikedesi: " there are holes in all of that,"

There are no holes, mike; only ignorance.

"..and with dna is amazes me..."

Hey, i find it pretty amazing too, but that doesn't lead me to conclude it doesn't exist.

Don: Theories are only proposed explanations not the complete answer, I agree they have evidence to back them up, but are mostly unproven. Again when any theory finds enough fact to conclude that it is completely true then it becomes law. But until then again it's just a proposal named a theory which can be proven wrong at any time. If that isn't what a theory is then I will concede

Jock I'm not sure what you're saying, scientist admit they don't have all the answers but are working on finding them, and I'm not sure what doesn't exist??

mikedesi

Again you demonstrate that you do not understand science theory in general or the Theory of Evolution specifically. The theory HAS been proven. The reason it remains a THEORY is because in may still be ENHANCED as further knowledge is gathered. The Theory of Evolution is now 150 years old and has been upheld and expanded as knowledge of genetics, DNA, additional fossil evidence and many, many other areas of evidence have been added. There really is no chance whatsoever that the Theory of Evolution will be disproven, but it will certainly be improved as science itself improves.

Think of the theory of evolution as a jigsaw puzzle with no edge pieces. We understand the picture we see, but we understand there is more to the picture. In science there is always more to learn, and in that sense theories are incomplete, but there is no chance that science will suddenly abandon evolution in favor of creationism (or intelligent design, if you prefer). No chance.

Also, it might be useful to think of a science theory as an idea which has been on trial, similar to a trial in the justice system, except that the jurors are all of the experts in the field of science and they have the duty not only to pass judgement on the evidence presented, but to challenge the idea by gathering evidence of their own, repeat the experiments, measurements, observations and perform any scientific investigation that they believe will lead them to knowledge about this idea that helps explain the natural world. Now imagine that this trial has been repeated thousands of times all over the world and no conflicting data has ever been confirmed. The "trial" of the idea of evolution has been taking place for 150 years and stands as a cornerstone of life science.

When you say it is "just a theory" you clearly have not even a basic understanding of what a scientific theory is.

Mostly it remains a theory because over 150 years of studying it scientist haven't found the missing link and cannot by the scientific method change it from theory to law. there are many laws in science and have become that way because they were tested to completion. I honestly know what a theory by definition is. There is no difference between something on trial and a proposal, they are both under review. Theories remain so until proven or disproven that is simple fact. Scientist are rational thinking and know they could be wrong and that is why there are so many different theories concerning the beginning of life, like organisms piggybacking from crystals and the primordial ooze. Scientist will never claim complete truths until all the facts have be taken to completion, that is the backbone of the scientific method, do not teach something as a law until proven. They strongly strongly believe in evolution but again will concede they can't find the missing links to completely prove it. Gravity is aslo another feild where through peer review scientist have different theories, stating it is what we all grew up knowing that it is a force pulling where others believe as a space gel which through spinning and external forces keep us grounded. Again they have two and scientist keep them theory because they cannot both exist as law. I'm not sure why you don't think I understand the method when I have giving plenty of valid examples. I can also discuss time travel and the hadron collider and quarks all theories that scientist "know" exist but never has proven it or witnessed them.

I was a biology major before switching to exercise science. lab work, testing, proving, retesting, evaluating, checking with previous normative data is what I do

To those who say that this country is a Christian country founded on Christian beliefs, I ask: which version of Christianity? There are many versions, for all the Catholica out there, it was far from being the predominant religion in America when our country was born.

Our founding fathers, in fact, were not intent on building a country based on Christian ethics and morality. They had already seen the folly of that in countless countries. Here are some quotes from our founding fathers, and the source of the quote. Read them. They would not be pleased with the attempts of the religious right to undermine what they worked so hard to build for us:

James Madison (1751-1836)"What influence in fact have ecclesiastical establishments had on Civil
Society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the Civil authority; in many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been seen the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the
public liberty may have found an established Clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just Government instituted to secure & perpetuate it needs them not." ( James Madison, "Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments," June 20, 1785

Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826) "Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting ‘Jesus Christ,’ so that it would read ‘A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;’ the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the
Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination."( Thomas Jefferson in his Autobiography, 1821; from Thomas Jefferson: Writings, New York: Library of America, 1984, p. 40. )

Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826) "For we know that the common law is that system of law which was introduced by the Saxons on their settlement in England, and altered from time to time by proper legislative authority from that time to the date of Magna Charta, which terminates the period of the common law, or lex non scripta, and commences that of the statute law, or Lex Scripta. This settlement took place about the middle of the fifth century. But Christianity was not introduced till the seventh century; the conversion of the first christian king of the Heptarchy having taken place about the year 598, and that of the last about 686. Here, then, was a space of two hundred years, during which the common law was in existence, and Christianity no part of it. If it ever was adopted, therefore, into the common law, it must have been between the introduction of Christianity and the date of the Magna Charta. But of the laws of this period we have a tolerable collection by Lambard and Wilkins, probably not perfect, but neither
very defective; and if any one chooses to build a doctrine on any law of that period, supposed to have been lost, it is incumbent on him to prove it to have existed, and what were its contents. These were so far alterations of the common law, and became themselves a part of it. But none of these adopt Christianity as
a part of the common law. If, therefore, from the settlement of the Saxons to the introduction of Christianity among them, that system of religion could not be a part of the common law, because they were not yet Christians, and if, having their laws from that period to the close of the common law, we are all
able to find among them no such act of adoption, we may safely affirm (though contradicted by all the judges and writers on earth) that Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law." ( Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814; from Merrill D. Peterson, ed., Thomas Jefferson: Writings, New York: Library of America, 1984, pp. 1324-1325. )

John Adams (1735-1826) "As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" ( John Adams, letter to F.A. Van
der Kamp, December 27, 1816; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: The Citadel Press, 1983, p. 44.)

John Adams (1735-1826) "The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall
govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?"( John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815; from The Adams-Jefferson Letters: The Complete Correspondence, Chapel Hill and
London: University of North Carolina Press, 1987, p. 445. )

Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)"My parents had early given me religious impressions, and brought me through my childhood piously in the dissenting [puritan] way. But I was scarce 15 when, after doubting by turns of several points as I found them disputed in the different books I read, I began to doubt of revelation it self. Some books against deism fell into my hands; they were said to be the substance of sermons
preached at [Robert] Boyle’s lectures. It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough deist." ( Benjamin Franklin, Autobiography; from Autobiography And Other Writings, New York: Oxford University Press, 1998, p. 58. )

Thomas Paine (1737-1809) "Now, had the news of salvation by Jesus Christ been inscribed on the face of
the sun and the moon, in characters that all nations would have understood, the whole earth had known it in twenty-four hours, and all nations would have believed it; whereas, though it is now almost two thousand years since, as they tell us, Christ came upon earth, not a twentieth part of the people of the earth know anything of it, and among those who do, t

Thomas Paine (1737-1809)"Now, had the news of salvation by Jesus Christ been inscribed on the face of
the sun and the moon, in characters that all nations would have understood, the whole earth had known it in twenty-four hours, and all nations would have believed it; whereas, though it is now almost two thousand years since, as they tell us, Christ came upon earth, not a twentieth part of the people of the earth know anything of it, and among those who do, the wiser part do not believe it."( Thomas Paine, in his "Examination of the Prophecies," 1807; from Philip S. Foner, ed., The Complete Writings of Thomas Paine, Vol. II, New York: The Citadel Press, 1969, p. 890. )

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any [Muslim] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

This is quote from John Adams, a founding father and President of the United States. Many of the founders were deists, a religion that can hardly be described as Christianity. President Bush and Obama have recently made it clear that the United States does not exclude non-believers. There are three known Congressmen who are atheists.

None of the above would be true if the United States was a soley Christian nation. This country was founded on religious tolerance, and this includes tolerance of nonbelievers.

As a lifelong atheist and proud defender of freedom or religion, I take offense at any statement that undermines the some 30 million or so nonbelievers in the United States, just as a black person would take offense at a racist statement.

Because of this, I propose an organized report bomb of comments that are clearly bigoted/intolerant. Discussing religion is fine, but statements like "atheists will go to hell" or "they have no right to have parties like this" are not.

mikedesi

Unfortunately, you were not much of a science student since you fail to understand that a science law is not a theory that has achieved a high level of proof.

The laws of science are various established scientific laws, or physical laws as they are sometimes called. "Laws" differ from hypotheses, theories,postulates, principles, etc., in that laws are an analytic statements, usually with an empirically determined constant. A theory may contain a set of laws, or a theory may be implied from an empirically determined law.

Laws are generally expressed as mathematical formulas, such as the gas laws that express the relationship among pressure, temperature and volume, or the electricity laws that relate voltage, amperage and resistance.

Again you demonstrate that you do not understand that which you oppose.

mikedesi, the way you describe your understanding of the Theory of Evolution would be more like the Hypothesis of Evolution. What you erroneously understand of what is known and unknown in regards to evolution amounts to nothing more than an educated guess, which is a hypothesis. Evolution has moved far beyond a hypothesis, with empirical data, massive amounts of solid physical evidence and reproducible conclusions.. it is considered Scientific Theory. Once a hypothesis has been tested, evidence has been gathered and it has all been verified as conclusive, it has been basically proven and moves to the status of Theory. As Don has said, Theories are proven beyond doubt, however still remain open to additional information. This simply allows the concept to be expanded and more deeply understood as more data is added to it.

since we are going with dictionary definitions, Theory: proposed explanation, theories arent' proven at all that is why it's a proposed explanation ask any scientist and they will tell you that. Theory of Time travel for example. Scientist will tell you that it is real and at the same time that they have not yet proven it, hence we don't have time travel. Same with evolution, they don't have the constant, missing link to fill in all the spots. That for humans would be pre-ape/humans and the one thing that can connect them when they spilt, that would make the evoultion of man complete therefore a constant line of evolving. I do understand and since you haven't touched on anything but the scientic method I politely leave this discussion. None of my retorts on anything else have been touched. Also I know scientist keep things theory because they do not want to be wrong nor feel that things are complete. I know what a hypothesis is and have never expressed a theory to be the same even though they are synonyms(they are, any thesarus will tell you that). Again I understand because you cannot fully state something as complete until you have taken it to finalization, they believe evolution to be true (belief aslo a synonym for theory) because they fully do not believe in ID, that is the only reason. They just haven't been able to put all the pieces together. Thank you for the discussion even though it had nothing to do with the subject, which as I stated atheist have just as much right to assemble as anyone else they are human beings and citizen and should be treated equally and should be heard. Again look at any dictionary and thesarus they will affirm my definitions and synonyms. Basis of all science, take it to completion and prove things to be irreputable fact, and just to throw this out as Humans, I think we have started to devolve in the sense we keep the weak alive rather then letting nature take it's course. Oh I do believe in evolution within a species. last post

mikedesi

You leave the discussion as you began - willfully ignorant. You fail to understand that scientific truths that cannot be expressed as mathematical equations, such as evolution, cannot ever to "laws". As a former biology major you are acquainted with CELL THEORY. It is still called a theory even though it is clear that all living things are composed of cells. The idea of cells cannot be expressed mathematically, so it cannot be a law.

You have failed to learn the definitions of terms taught in nearly every science class beginning in middle school and if you wish to discuss scientific ideas with rational, educated people it is important that you understand the basics of the scientific method and the meaning of terms such as HYPOTHESIS, THEORY, and LAW.

I realize that your religion prevents you from rational thought concerning the Theory of Evolution, but you should re-evaluate your own understanding of scientific terms substituting Cell Theory. Perhaps then you will understand that even though there is no chance that Cell Theory will ever be refuted, it is also true that we will never call the idea CELL LAW.

A theory can NOT be proved wrong at any time. Just as one study does not a theory make. Both the building and refinement/rejection require VOLUMES of work. There IS no volume of work refuting evolution (more precisely natural selection)... period. None. Zip. This is not opinion, this is fact... there is simply NO body of work presenting an alternative for possible refinement. Nothing at all.

By the way, your post of a missing link "by definition of scientific method" exposes you as an armchair fraud. Sorry, it does. Scientific method has nothing to do with a missing link, nothing to say about such at all. Results obtained by USING scientific method may. You throw around a word as a charlatan professing understanding. There you go.

Just goes to show you can't fix stupid.But God will fix it in time

srssmith: Your comment is offensive for two reasons:

1) You seem to imply that not believing in any religion is stupid

(Which would imply that anyone who doesn't believe your religion is also stupid?)

2) When you say "God will fix in time" I feel you are implying that you are eagerly awaiting "Judgement Day" when all the evil atheists are sucked to the pits of hell while you watch in joy declaring "I told you so!"

(Please justify to me how this is 'Christian' or any other type of religious value?)

Rationality, clear thinking, a love of science, and an education. Hey, what do you know. I appreciate all of these things and I am a Christian. Imagine that. I have commonality with my Atheist brothers and sisters! (<;

If God exists, stupidity is his creation. Either you realize you are implying that His creation needs fixing and perversely don't mind asserting contradictions, or you don't grasp the implications of what you say and similarly fail to realize that you wouldn't survive any divine repair job.

Thank you, William Jennings Bryan, for your thundering.

Now, back to our regularly-scheduled program, "Inherit the Wind"...

If John were Islamic he'd be in the Taliban!

Ian

My very favorite movie of all times. The one with Spencer Tracy.

John, Judge much? I'm guessing you don't turn the other cheek much either. Also betting you don't really know any atheist.

Bahahaha, I love it when you poke oversensitive Christians a little and they go over the edge into the "thy" and "O thou foolish heathen" talk. Thanks for the laugh, John.

I'm betting John knows a bunch of atheists but doesn't know it, because he thinks he'd recognize them by their glowing red eyes, horns, and pointy tails.

Bahahaha, I love it when you poke oversensitive Christians a little and they go over the edge into the "thy" and "O thou foolish heathen" talk. Thanks for the laugh, John.

Yes, because the Bible is best in the original old English....

If John were Islamic he'd be in the Taliban!

Bahaha!!

John,

You have a right to your feeling of offense. However, you need to be careful in how you express it. You say that you don't care what others think. That is dangerous thinking. You don't have to compromise your values but expressing anger directly at those that do not share them accomplishes the exact opposite of what you must surely want. For all people to see the truth of Christ. You must not harden your heart to the point that you inadvertently push people away.

John seems to be a fundamentalist Christian nutcase. I mean isn't be putting the gentler, more educated moderate Christians to shame ?

Yes, because the Bible is best in the original old English....

Do you mean Elizabethan English? Because I think you're thinking of the King James Bible. You couldn't even begin to read Old English... it reads more like Icelandic than it does English.

And I'm pretty sure the "original Bible" was in Greek and a whole bunch of other Middle Eastern languages like Hebrew and Aramaic. You did know that English didn't exist when the Bible was written, right?

john, christians aren't neccessarily stupid, just really gullible. you are not a practicer of your own religous teachings anyway as your first post on here proves. saying that atheists are going to murder everyone who doesn't fall in line, as christians have done in the past, is not a christ like way of acting. again, you are a hypocrite for preaching the word of god and not following it yourself.

John you are no better than those that try to remove a nativity scene from a courthouse because it infringes on their beliefs. I fully support as a Christian the right of the atheists to use the public arena.

I believe John just settled the debate. Christianity provides a fertile breeding ground for intolerance. In all fairness, this is the first time I've ever seen a Christian *this* intolerant because of their religion. This isn't about "religion has a monopoly on ethics and morals" (not true, by the way), but instead this: an invincible man live in the sky and if you aren't convinced based solely on hearsay that his existence is undisputed then that is a personal affront the the invincible man in the sky and therefore is anathema. On John's morality scale atheism, free thinking, and rationalism lie somewhere between theistic mass murderer and theistic child molester.

The Average IQ might go up a bit for a couple days, but the Arrogance Level will go up exponentially. Thats saying alot when you are talking about Washington politicians! Its one thing to say you don't know if God exists. Its quite another to think that you can prove that. The more scientists find out out about the Universe the less they know.

John seems to be someone of very weak faith if someone not believing in his religion and expressing their right to be seen and heard riles him up so.

I mean, if you are truly convinced you are in a personal relatonship with God and you see evidence of it in your life and you truly believe your God is all-powerful, why would you get so hurt over what some other puny human believed to the point of descending into such uncivilized vitriol....unless you actually have deep insecurities and a lot of vengeful anger and ego to satisfy more than anything else.

It's like the extremist Muslims who have to continually shout "God is Great!" as if to convince themselves or something. Why a supernatural, almighty being needs that amount of kowtowing and ego-stroking is beyond me. Seems more like the religious empire/political/ecnomic systems are what needs people to think and act so disempowered.

Also, concepts like, "Love your neighbor as yourself" are not exclusively Christian. They are basic common sense principles to be found in ALL cultures, all over the world, long before there was even such a thing as Christianity.

Empathy, reciprocity, truth, freedom, human rights and what works best for the common good of all are what informs the ethics of non-religious people, skeptics or atheists. We are social animals and as societies evolve, we discover what works for everyone's benefit and what does not. No supernatural endowment needed...just a brain that can learn, reason, grow and learn some more.

And NO, I am not an atheist. Just someone who thinks fundamentalist religious stupidity is killing our planet.

even god is a sinner. envy is a sin and a synonym of jealousy.

"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God" (Exodus 20:4-5).

even their god is a do as i say not as i do hypocrite.

John I truly think you are wasting your time. In addition when you get emotional as I said in a previous response to you, you actually push people from you instead of sucking them into intersting discussion. They do have a right (unfortunatly) to not believe in God, as much as you and I have a right to believe in him. The more you fight them, the further you drive them from religion of any kind. All you can really do, is make piece with your maker, and be steadfast in your belief.

John I truly think you are wasting your time.

What are you talking about? Arguing about things on the internet is serious business.

That was his point Chris /smirk

It is such a shame that Christopher Hitchens will not be there. Hope there is a large turnout!

John is a troll, but the reply's are great. John, help me out. I have my telescope, but I can't find any magic man up there. Which planet is he hiding behind.

I'm sure he will be addressed with kind words from a grateful public.

John...do you really feel the way you're behaving is the way Christ would behave? Would he judge people so vehemently and with such anger? Was Christ an angry person?

I don't believe in God but I think Christ was real and he taught some very important, very wise lessons that our modern christian society seems to have forgotten. For you to say that athiests are going to murder christians and drive them away...while it would be just seeing as how Christians have been doing that for two thousand years...is an ignorant statement. Your hate and bigotry is astounding but not surprising.

As a Christian you just want to be left alone to believe what you feel is right? How is it just that you cannot afford others that same courtesy?

No sir, you are not at all like Christ. The hypocrisy that you have shown here today illustrates the same kind of behavior that has caused many to flee religion and embrace secularism. If I believed in God I would pray for you and those who taught you to become such a hateful person. If you were truly a follower of Christ you would not behave in such a hateful, EVIL way. Athiests have every right to be afraid of people like you because people like you bring true suffering into this world. I hope some day you will learn to accept everyone for who they are, regardless of what they believe because until then, you're faith is nothing more than talk; when you ACT like a Christian then maybe people will put some stock into what you say.

I will respect your belief in nothing on the day you respect my belief in something. Atheists are the ones going around making fun of others for their beliefs. Very mature (not) people. You may have a high IQ but you have no social IQ. You want my respect for your beliefs respect mine.

We'll respect your religious beliefs as soon as you stop trying to force them upon the rest of us.

Hatr_hurter:

God is a sinner? Really now you are just showing that you are childish and trying to evoke a reaction. God is perfect and we are not...to try and prove God wrong is foolish. Why don't you try and be less antagonistic?

Well, he DID murder a @!$%#load of people in the Bible...

It's impossible to prove a negative (or, non-existence), and it's equally impossible to prove the existence of a god. That's why it's called faith...

happy, if he is envious, which it is outright stated in the bible he is jealous then it's true. sorry for pointing out your book's hypocrisy as i know you are a person of BLIND faith.

And I'm pretty sure the "original Bible" was in Greek and a whole bunch of other Middle Eastern languages like Hebrew and Aramaic. You did know that English didn't exist when the Bible was written, right?

Yes, we all do know that. Look up the word "sarcasm". Apparently that is something you don't know.

I especially like the part where John states his value system is what prevents him from harming atheists. Why would he want to harm them in the first place? Could it be because of his value system, and the fact that they don't share it? Must be hard to wrap his brain around that, with obvious results.

Thinking Scientist, if God exist there will be no rejoicing in those that are lost, as Jesus said as he hung from the cross, Forgive them Father for they know not what they do. As a Christian we are to plant a seed from there on it's up to God and you.

But to think that a 'perfect god' (as in the bible) would act out of anger, vanity (no other allowed), revenge, disappointment, favoring one over another...., is a bit much to swallow. I'd say the bible needs updating if it wants to retain some credibility in the future. Sometimes I think that the term 'free will' has been coined in order to relieve the perfect god from his responsibility of creating a faultless creation...

Let's say for a moment that there is a "god" and that the bible is literally true. Then let's all read Genesis 21:1-14 and then let's ask ourselves why would anyone worship such an a$$hole?

It's a serious question...

I like how he wants to accuse athiests of being murderous and evil but says that his value system, provided by God, no doubt, prevents him from HURTING other people. Funny how he needs God to keep him from hurting people while the rest of us only need a little common sense and humanistic morality. So...which one was the evil one again?

lonereb

I will respect your belief in nothing on the day you respect my belief in something. Atheists are the ones going around making fun of others for their beliefs. Very mature (not) people. You may have a high IQ but you have no social IQ. You want my respect for your beliefs respect mine.

And how exactly do we show our respect for your beliefs? Do we allow you to alter our laws so they more properly align with the bible? Something like sharia law? Do we sit passively while you stuff your beliefs down our throats? Generally speaking, we do not interfere with your practice of your religion. What more exactly do you expect? I will not bend the knee and kiss the ring! I will not bow down before the one you serve! Does that make me disrespectful? If so...so be it.

Ian, love your 'Inherit.." reference

Steeler Fan: Actually, John is in the Taliban, the Christian Taliban. And, he's goddamned proud of it.

To be fair, Sally, I don't think Mattmark was making a death threat; I think he was raising the possibility of a violent fundamentalist Christian counter-protest. He didn't say he wanted it to happen, just proposed the scenario.

John-3078515

Just asking a question here....I have read The Book.....where is it written that Christ states or implies:

That not believing in God makes you evil? It is not in the Red Letter edition.

"Your comment is offensive"

Our country isn't falling apart because people believe in things; our country is falling apart because we can no longer tolerate one another without becoming offended. The human race is a species of nomads, sic "hobos", who never bathed, never brushed their teeth and smelled like walking death for miles and miles -- if people could tolerate that I think we can act like mature individuals and be able to handle if someone does or does not believe in different things than we do.

"If God is all-powerful, can He make a rock so big that He, Himself, can't lift it?"

- George Carlin

"And God disappears in a puff of logic."

- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy

wlee - as Jesus said as he hung from the cross, Forgive them Father for they know not what they do.

Sounds to me that your Jesus gave us all a free pass without having to believe in him.. In the eyes of christians, those of us who do not believe are ignorant of the truth that they are privy to.. in other words we know what we do, and you're main man asked is big daddy to let our transgressions slide... Hooray! Thanks for the heads up! I feel so much better now.

lonereb-

I will respect your belief in nothing on the day you respect my belief in something.

I will never ask you to respect my belief in nothing, nor would I expect you to, likewise I will not respect your belief in something and nor should you expect me to either... HOWEVER.. I will respect your RIGHT to believe whatever it is you wish and I would expect that you allow me the same courtesy.

Respecting someone's beliefs and respecting someone's right to believe are two totally different things. I find belief in religion to be illogical, irrational, ludicrous and completely undeserving of my respect.. and I'd wager you feel the same about my disbelief in your religion... But.. I would fight tooth and nail to protect your right to believe in your religion, regardless of whether I find that belief ridiculous or not. Could you say you'd do the same for me?

Thanks Sally!

Who would take a side? Both religions have shown that agnosticism triumphs them all.

Wow ... that's a lot of words to squeeze into such a small number of ideas ...

John
You're the one getting all hot and offended. I don't believe in your religion. But I fully respect your right to practice it. All most of us want to the same respect and rights we give to you. The problem is that far too many 'Christians' think they have the 'right' to tell the rest of what to believe and how to practice it. In that you are no different nor any better than Islam or any other religion.

Please, if you truly believe in the 'Christian' way, give respect to others who just want to believe differently. How is that too much to ask?

John, dude, I feel it's my moral obligation as a kind, loving person to tell you that you're really not doing your religious brethren any favors with the junk you're posting here.

John, dude, I feel it's my moral obligation as a kind, loving person to tell you that you're really not doing your religious brethren any favors with the junk you're posting here.

No but the ranks of the Pastafarians are swelling... and swell!

May the Flying Spaghetti Monster touch you with his noodly appendage.

This is my favorite part:

If I disagree with you, I can call you liar. You cannot prohibit that. Again, the most you can do is silence me by killing me. And with the resurrection of the dead in my corner, what is that to me? I'll not belabor it by repeating myself.

So let's review:

What have I got to back up my claims that you are offensive to me? The resurrection of the dead.

What have you got to back up your claims that I am offensive to you? Nothing.

In this corner: The Resurrection of the Dead. In that corner: Nothing.

How's that "not repeating yourself" working out for you? lulz

ah yes, the resurrection. fairy tales of a zombie jesus who died for your sins and came back for your brains. grown ups with imaginary friends are funny john.

John - this exactly what makes you so dangerous

My right as a Child of Almighty God in obedience to His command that I "preach the Gospel to every creature" trumps your imagined right to believe whatever you choose to believe

It trumps my right to the extent of inflicting pain, suffering and death should your type gain the upper hand and power. Your position is one of offense and my position is one of defense.

I am going to take a few vacation days to go to the party why you might ask .... because of John.

Wow John-3078515, chill out, will ya?

I would issue a challenge to all athiests out there included the ones on this board. Read the book a case for christ and then see what you think. If you truely say you are more open minded than christians, then at least read the book. The author was an athiest as well....

Jonathan, I've read the Bible, and it's the strongest case for atheism I have ever seen. The lead character, "God", was a raging jealous genocidal maniac; the guy Moses that everybody likes actually ordered infanticide and rape; rape victims are forced to marry their attackers; slavery is endorsed throughout; adn so on.

The New Testament is even dumber. Some cult leader's followers invented some hyped up BS about his "resurrection" so that they could maintain power and influence while threatening eternal suffering on anybody with a logical brain.

Funny how all these magical god-related events all occurred in a prehistoric era without any type of documentation other than people scribing into parchment whatever they want other people to believe. Nothing was ever witnessed by more than a village of 25 people. Everything was transmitted by parchment or word of mouth, slowly, over years. I can't believe anybody truly believes the whole virgin birth resurrection nonsense.

Brian - I have a hard time believing anyone really believes the whole virgin birth resurrecting thing. In this age of instant access to limitless information and compulsory education, the only thing that can explain belief in such ridiculous tales is the willing suspension of logic and reason. In other words, people who claim to believe that Jesus really was borne of a virgin mother and that he really did rise from the dead know that these things didn't happen, but instead choose to follow the status quo and pretend they believe these things to fit into their culture and gain acceptance.

That, or they're all unimaginably stupid.

John,

I would ask that you read your New Testament and see how Jesus dealt with detractors. He did not threaten, argue, condemn. He just lived what He preached and let His truth shine through. He invited people to come with Him, He didn't try to draft them. Live like Christ, that's what He expected. I'm not a Christian, but I recognize good when I see it. Real or fictional, Jesus was a great person and to be like Him is something everyone should aspire to.

Well, Jesus did get really pissed off once and started breaking things in a temple when he saw folks exchanging money there... Not very Jesuslike. Of course, he's a fictional character in a fairy tale, so I suppose he can do whatever he wants.

Wrong booniesman in this country I do not at present time have the right to freely express my beliefs. I live in Texas where an out of control federal judge tells HS kids they can't say 15 phrases vaguely religious like"can we have a moment of silence" then 2 months later rules the next kid can pray.So to pray in public in my state it seems I must ask the federal court or risk ending up in jail.

No LR, the judge says that high schools cannot say those religious phrases, because they violate the Constitution. Kids can pray to their spoiled little hearts' content, but the second it becomes an official government prayer, it's illegal.

lonereb, you are sooooo oppressed. poor you. if you weren't oppressing other groups people might care, or if what you said actually had some truth in it.

Chris-629698:

That is the funny thing about God - even with all our advances in science they still can't disprove (or prove) the existance of God...That would be too easy so he makes you decide to have faith instead. How can you prove that the Bible isn't true? Or is true? How do you explain the little "miracles" that have happened on the earth that cannot be explained by logic or rational thought...but they only go far enough to force you to make your own decision - it is called "free will"...

"choose to follow the status quo and pretend they believe these things to fit into their culture and gain acceptance."

I think this hits the nail on the head. I think many believers just go along to get along. I think it was Mark Twain who said if you want to find athiests just look in church pews. (or something like that)

As to atheism being a religion, to quote Penn Jilette "atheism is a religion like NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." We can not let the theists frame the conversation that because we do not believe like them that we are somehow positing an alternative to thier reality. This concedes that they have a reality that needs to be countered and that we are the alternative. They do not have a reality that is based in fact so we do not have to posit an alternative to this. Was it Hitchens who said "if I don't believe in Santa Claus then you do not say I am an Asantaclausist?" (I am paraphasing at best here) I argue that we should not concede the point the we are proposing an "alternative" as there is NOTHING to the other side.

John...so essentially you're saying that you have a right to believe in God and force your views on others and that nobody else has the right to believe differently. This is America, therefore, you are WRONG. Secondly, you BELIEVE in resurection after death; this is not a fact, it is an opinion. No matter how badly you want this to be fact, it is not. You have nothing.

I understand how it is, being a teenager, wanting to clutch on to those beliefs, being terrified to let go of them, and being angry when someone believes differntly...but it isn't the way. When you become an adult you'll learn that EVERYONE has the right to be respected.

And JACP...thank you for being kind and "christian" in your post. I don't believe one word of what you actually said but it is a nice thought and at least you have the maturity to express your beliefs without anger or without forcing your beliefs on others. Thank you.

Read the book a case for christ and then see what you think.

I'm an Atheist and I believe a man named Jesus existed. But I believe he was just a man. A philosopher with some good ideas, nothing more. A "peacenick" with a following, not some supernatural entity that we should all worship "or else".

So I've always had trouble believing the whole virgin birth thing too. Especially considering that they didn't have the technology back then that we have now. With artificial insemination a virgin birth is possible....but why would you want to do that?

How do you explain the little "miracles" that have happened on the earth that cannot be explained by logic or rational thought...

...and which little "miracles" would those be?

john - blah blah blah? BLAH! blah blah blah. blah blah.

that's all you said. Continue to blather, if you wish...

...and which little "miracles" would those be?

F**king MAGNETS, how do they work?

It's a double rainbow! What does it mean... what does it MEAN?!

"Miracles" like that, I assume.

kellith - the rare but not unknown "unbreakable hymen" is more of a probability.

NO WOMAN HAS EVER PRODUCED A MALE CHILD THAT WAS NOT STARTED IN THE ORDINARY WAY OF EGG-SPERM COMBINATION. "religion" says otherwise and I say "BULLSH IT"

Hatr_hurter...

I think you've actually gotten to the crux of it...

If the "religious" did not try to force their beliefs on others...no atheist would care about what they do or what they believe. The religious do not see that it is THEIR intolerance that is the cause of the backlash. If they just went to their church, temple, mosque and prayed all they want and left the rest of us alone, we wouldn't give a hoot. My question is WHY do the religious feel they have to force their religion on others? The ONLY rational explanation that I can come up with is if everyone is forced to "believe", then it hides each individual's DOUBTS about their own beliefs. If anyone has any other explanation I would appreciate it.

I tend to deal in facts, and facts only, which tends to make me agnostic. While there are absolutely no facts that support the idea of a god, there are also no facts to support no god. There are facts that support there was a person named Jesus that was on this planet 2000 years ago, but no facts other than heresay that support he was the son of a god. We base our very calendar on his life, so I have to assume he actually existed. That being said, I lean completely away from the idea of god, as I tend to think more logically, and in so doing refuse to accept the fact that were he indeed a presence and supposedly loved all his children, the amount of foolishness going on down here on his home planet would cause any other supreme being to go into fits of rage and slow things down a bit...free will or not. Were I in charge, I sure would make my presence known so that people would stop acting so sanctimonious. So....I choose NOT to believe in god rather than think he is so lousy at his job that somebody else needs to run for god.

@Caligula-1763025

They have to spread their religion to others. It's in their doctrine that they must try to convert the unbelievers. They have to speak up for their God. If they don't then they according to their way of thinking then they are ashamed of their religion and God. Um there is actually something Jesus said that goes something like if you don't recognize me in front of man then I will not recognize you in front of my Father. That's not exactly right, but it is the gist of what he supposedly said.

caligula, the have to force their beliefs on others as a tennant of their religion. christianity believes you should go out and spread the word and recruit others. it's one of the things they decry about islam and practice in their own religion. the threats they make aren't quite as bad as islam's kill the infidels but threatening someone with hell for not joining is pretty close. anytime you have to threaten someone to get them to join your religion you probabaly have a religion that isn't worth following.

Caligula-1763025

If the "religious" did not try to force their beliefs on others...no atheist would care about what they do or what they believe.

Wow! Over-generalizing much?

You can't possible speak with authority for all atheists, and therefore can't say that no atheist cares about what others believe.

I am an atheist.

I am also deeply concerned about the detrimental effects of religion on our species.

I am in favor of taking every reasonable, non-violent, course of action to eradicate religion from the collective consciousness.

My anti-religious attitude is not specifically related to my lack of belief in the existence of gods, but isn't completely unrelated either.

Lordkellith....Luke writes that Jesus says 'those who come to me and do not hate their mother and father can not be my disciple'. Why do Christians pick and choose so many of their bible passages? If you take one passage at face value, why not all of them? There are so many mentions in the bible of how to treat slaves...seems odd for a proponant of 'all men are gods children'? I don't get it....probably never will, because nobody can explain it rationally. And no....please don't anybody tell me that World War 2 was all part of gods plan. If they really believe that, then it was a lousy plan!

Dear John:

In the words of George Carlin, "calm down... have some dip."

P.S. Please don't watch Once Upon a Time on ABC. You appear to take fairy tales way too seriously and I wouldn't want you to have an aneurysm.

stevefoo- So....I choose NOT to believe in god rather than think he is so lousy at his job that somebody else needs to run for god.

I'm a Christian, but I have to say this is the greatest line ever! lol

What I wanna know is how belief has become christianity's thing, like purple and rainbows became gay's thing and fried chicken and watermelon became "Black people's thing". I love watermelon and fried chicken and I'm white, I like the color purple and I'm not a homosexual -- quite frankly when video games incorporated prismatic images, I was filled with glee, not gay. :P Why do people have to attach stereotypes to everything that hurt people who are not affiliated to it?

I am an individual spiritualist like George Fox, a man who believed in God but HATED the church, couldn't stand organized religion and inadvertently founded the quakers because he made churches and preachers who practiced dogma and did NOT care about people or God QUAKE in their boots.

I have a wildly different view than most people -- views I try to make go hand in hand with science and the unknown like one of my personal favorite philosophers, Aristotle. I don't think I should be lumped into religious bigots because I happen to believe science is SO amazing it needed more than luck or chance or accident to exist.

How did animals evolve two separate sexual organs if a single celled organism had no need to sexually reproduce? How were the stars created if we're star stuff? What created that? How does your body synthesize RNA by matching 3 perfect strands of genetic code together, that are perfectly exact, billions of times per day when we can't even properly navigate our own roads in our own cars?

It befuddles me ANYONE can call our current science the beginning and the end of all knowledge when so many secrets to the AMAZING things science has ALREADY taught us exists...and it is just as shallow and closed minded as the catholic church from way back when. This is a personal spat, not a scientific or spiritual one...and I wish people stopped using their education in God or Science to hurt people.

The birth of religion:

Zug was the leader of his tribe, he was big and strong and wise. He led his tribe on many successful hunts. Everyone loved Zug, except for Gar.

Gar wanted to be the chieftan, and although he was not as strong or as smart as Zug - he was clever. Gar understood that people followed Zug because he was better, and Gar knew he would never be able to get as many followers as Zug.

Gar needed more followers than Zug, and for days he thought on how to accomplish this monumental task, since he obviously was no match for Zug. He thought about going to another village and finding someone even bigger and smarter than Zug, but Gar did not want to share power with anyone. Gar wanted all the power himself.

One day, Gar had an epiphany as he was walking along imagining himself as bigger and stronger than Zug. It dawned on him that most of the followers never get to see Zug, they just hear about his strength and wisdom and follow him.

Gar ran back to the village, and began telling the other villagers about his special friend that only speaks to him and is stronger and smarter than Zug. He proclaims that this special friend is invisible and impossibly strong, that he knows everything, and created the valley in which they lived with his pinky finger alone. The villagers are intrigued, and want to follow someone so powerful. Clever ol' Gar begins making predictions, and some of them came true - some didn't. The ones that were true proved the existence of his special friend, and the ones were false proved that his special friend was angry with Zug. People began asking Gar to talk to his special friend on their behalf, and Gar told them that to get help from his special friend that they must do as his special friend wanted - and that was for Gar to be chief.

Soon enough, Gar was chief and Zug's head was on a sharpened stick outside his hut. People still came to ask Gar to talk to his special friend whenever a child got sick or someone got hurt, Gar would blame Zug's evil invisible spirit for such things - and if the child got better he would say it was his special friend's doing.

This went on for awhile until Tur showed up with his followers and his even bigger and smarter special friend, and massacred Gar's village and enslaved the survivors.

The end.

Thank you Steve and Lord...but...

Your explanations still don't really answer the core question. You say that their religion calls on them to convert the non-believers...I still ask "WHY"? Is it about power, control? To what end? Why does their religion compel them to force it on others? No one seems to be able to answer this. I want to get down to the fundamental (no pun intended) psychological reason for this behaviour. I can understand the "leaders" wanting to control others, but why do the "followers" seek to control others as well?

@Zen...

Good show. Attack others who are on your side. Way to go, dude! You are a real service to the cause...

I think zealotry is dangerous in whatever form it takes.

Caligula-1763025

Good show. Attack others who are on your side.

You want to play live-and-let-live with those who have no interest in playing by your rules. Your passive attitude towards religion amounts to silent collaboration with every terrible thing done in the name of God (or other imaginary entity).

My conscience won't allow me to stand silently to stand idly while the religious social-virus sickens even more of our species.

Way to go, dude! You are a real service to the cause...

You make it clear that your cause is not my cause. You advocate coexisting with ignorance, while I advocate eradicating ignorance.

I think zealotry is dangerous in whatever form it takes.

I agree. That is why my position on this matter is taking every reasonable, non-violent, course of action to eradicate religion from the collective consciousness.

I stated as much in the post you responded to. Either you didn't read my post, or failed to understand its meaning.

Caligula -

I still ask "WHY"? Is it about power, control? To what end? Why does their religion compel them to force it on others? No one seems to be able to answer this.

I think the answer you seek can be found in the origins of the concept of religion itself. What was the initial purposes of religion in the first place? .. There are two basic purposes that founded the inception of religion.

In no particular order:

One purpose was to explain things that primitive man could not explain - "We have no rain because the Sky-God is angry." They had no clue about meteorology or the science of weather, thus it was a god that did it.

The other purpose, which is where you'll find your answer, is to get people to behave in a desired like fashion. Back the olden days before sophisticated law enforcement, it was probably rather difficult to get people to behave the way a governing body wanted it to. The chieftain could say "THIS IS THE LAW" and people might follow it when he or his enforcers were around, but when people were miles away in the privacy of their own abodes, all bets were off. It became necessary to create an invisible all-knowing and downright vengeful "eye-in-the-sky" to keep people in line. The leader could now say, "I may not see you screwing your sheep, but the gods can.. and they will be P!SSED!.. however, as a bonus if you do as you're told you will be REWARDED!!!" Threat of punishment and promise of reward, two of the greatest tools of compliance ever invented and religion is founded both.

Of course this tactic of behavioral control is not very useful if only a few people believe or even know about it, so it was worked into the fabric of religion that it is important to not only believe and follow the rules, but also convince everyone you possibly can to do so as well... and if the people don't want to agree to what you're selling, first offer the rewards of belief, and if that doesn't work threaten them with damnation or death. Using this strategy of go forth and convert, religions have been quite successful in getting a vast number of people to behave in a desired way, where they otherwise might not have.

Granted nowadays, more often than not, it's more of a business interest than anything else. The more believers your church has, the more money they put in the collection plate, and trust me not all of that money goes toward noble causes and deeds. Look at any minister of a highly successful church and I'd wager that he drives a nicer car and has a bigger house than you do.

I hope I have given you a satisfactory explanation to your conundrum.

WarBeast...

But I am still left wanting...I get the origins, I get the leadership wanting to achieve certain behaviours...what I still don't get is the blind-belief, the blind-faith part by the followers. Why do people have blind-faith (please no Steve Winward jokes)? Why are "true" believers so threatened by the questioning of their faith by others or the lack of faith in others? I can only conclude that it is personality defects in certain humans or the effect of extreme brainwashing. I'm coming to the think that tribalism is tribalism whether it's nationalism, religion, whatever. I am also coming to understand, though, that religion is a bit different. Because, for the followers, god is the ultimate cop-out. This or that happens because it's god's will...not because the person is @!$%# at they're job, or didn't plan. Also, it lets people off the hook for doing horrible acts because it's "god's will" or "god will taker care of you"...as in "you're all kicked off welfare and Medicaid, but don't worry, god will take care of you". So in the end, I finally have come to the realization that god is simply an "excuse". That says something really, really pathetically sad about most human beings.

Well, you asked a very specific question, and I believe I answered it rather succinctly. "Why do religions teach their followers to go out and convert others?"

Now, you have asked some very different questions regarding why people have blind faith and that sort of thing. You ask some good questions and the whole tribalism aspect is definitely a consideration. Personally, I believe a lot of blind faith is the result of childhood indoctrination (aka brainwashing). People are taught from birth to convert others, by people who were taught from birth to convert other, and they will teach their kids to convert others, who in turn teach their kids to convert others... ad infinitum.

In post #564, I go into great detail on the subject of childhood indoctrination... possible too much detail... heheh... but it pretty much covers my observations on the subject, should you care to check it out. Just look for what is possibly the longest post in this whole thread. HAH.

Cheers!

Thank you WarBeast...

What do you think of my theory of "god as a "cop out". An easy way for the self-delusional, intellectually lazy. or just plain stupid to abdicate all responsibility for their actions? A way for them to embrace and believe in their own incompetence, failure and most of all, their own personal "demons" (in the purely psychological sense)?

You're welcome.

Your "god as a cop-out" idea is one I also agree with. In another post, I stated that people buy into Intelligent Design because it is far easier to just believe "God Did It" than it is to actually wrap one's mind around the idea that the universe/life came to be through complex natural means, that require deep analysis and study, with a myriad of questions to be answered and facts to be found... No people like the path of least resistance, and since one of the most primal reasons for religion is to explain that which is not understood, they latch onto the idea that "God Did It" and it makes them feel all snug and secure in a false sense of having answers.

"Coming out" is a good idea; too many atheists have silenced themselves in the presence of strident proselytizing, official public prayer and other intimidating techniques fielded by the god-people. This will let them know they are not alone, as a matter of fact, their numbers grow each year. I started questioning as a child, when my mother said "god helps those who help themselves," and I decided to eliminate the middle man!

In my experience and research, coming out for rational, logical, peaceful people has never let do anything positive. Most times it has led to pogroms.

I'll be there to hide the victims.

Seriously? "Don't stick your neck out" is your advice to groups who feel they are treated unfairly? Can you name ONE SINGLE TIME in our history where a group gained recognition and respect by not sticking their necks out?

Wait, isn't that how Christianity started?

No - Christianity started with God I believe... :)

No - Christianity started with God I believe... :)

Actually, Judaism started with the belief of a god, Christianity started with the belief that Jesus was the son of a god.

No, I mean the organization. Sticking their necks out so the Romans could lop them off.

To use the phrase "sticking your kneck out ." concedes defeat and that the theists somehow have control of the conversation and that Dawkins and his ideas are somehow an alternative to "something." The theists do NOT have ANYTHING other than beliefs. There is no there there. My Dad (a lifelong Catholic believer) once got upset when he read that the Mormon church was baptising dead people to make them members of the LDS. I told him to not worry so much as they (the LDS baptisers) were not DOING anything. If they just sit in dark rooms and mumble baptism stuff then they are not doing anything in reality. If Dawkins gets his kneck injured in any way (because he is sticking it out there, or is he simply expressing his ideas?) by those who would actually DO something then I will let anyone who would injure him know that I have his back and I will not tolerate agressive behavior from a Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Zorasterist.. you get the picture.

So Noisy, you want to challenge the good christians. Good Luck with that. I'll be there to hide the victims.

Didn't you see the movie PCU? "I'm NOT gonna protest..."

I'm sure the God hates you b/c America loves gay people, people will be there with their little signs....well maybe not since they won't be able to symbolicly spit on a dead soldier's grave.

They could officially invite the Westboro Baptists. ROFLMAO

<3 U

they sure are acting like their athiesm is a religion

Hey mygirl1 -- I feel you may be a bit confused as to what they are gathering for. Not to act like a religion, but to let others like them feel OK with their feelings and not feel like freaks or fools. Also, the public can see that a lot of these folks really are nice people, not monsters!

What is your evidence for that peculiar assertion? The fact that atheists band together and/or share common beliefs? If that sufficed as an explanation, it would follow that all convictions held in common by any group must count as 'religious belief.' In that event we would be unable to distinguish between religious belief and any other kind, which would make the phrase 'religious belief' redundant.

Atheism IS a religion.

A "Religion" is a man-made, not-supported conclusion/delusion on the afterlife.

Anybody that claims they know the 100% correct answer to the afterlife is a complete idiot in my book.

You're mistaken. Atheism is an epistemological stance on religious claims, but that doesn't make it a religion.

Or, perhaps your mind is so entertained by boggling itself, it's too busy to think clearly...?

I am waiting for the atheists to get all ticked off at the unicorn worshipers, or the ever rampant grasshopper worshipers.

How can you get so mad at something you don't believe exists. I don't get it. I really don't. As a Christian there are so many things I don't believe exist, but i don't get my panties in a wad over them. I just ignore it. I have much better things to do like take my family out to a movie, or enjoy a good wine and dinner.

Huh, I wonder. Atheists just know in their heart God exists, and their pride is getting in the way. They NEED others to agree with them to make themselves feel better. Because any other human is smarter than God himself.

We are not ticked off at anyone. It's quite clear from the posts here, religious people are the angry ones

Atheists only care because the protestants and catholics in this country continually try to impose their religious beliefs on the general population (gay marriage, abortion, etc). I could care less about someone else's religious beliefs, just as long as they are not influencing public policy...