Agreed, i just don't understand this. I just don't get why didn't they let him come back to the USA and arrest him if they had evidence he was doing illegal things? Why? Because like many supossed terrorist he is assumed guilty until prove innocent. Which is completely against US law and frankly long standing tradition.

If he's a terrorist great, let him back and arrest him and charge him with a crime. Suspected terrorist, fine, investigate more and gather evidence. But until you can charge him with a crime preventing him from returning to the USA is just bogus.

Jolly Joker - it's that kind of intolerance that will ultimately destroy the USA. You can't decide an entire religion or people are evil, because that sets a precident. Whose next? The Jews? How about Mormons their weird! How about anyone who doesn't belong to one of the monotheistic mediteranian religions? Not all Muslims hate us, indeed most in the USA want to live their lives and periodically go on their hajji without having to worry about whether or not they are allowed to COME BACK HOME. BEcause this IS THEIR HOME they are US citizens.

Let me preface this comment by saying that I am not supporting what happened here as being right. This whole thing was apparently prompted by information about some of the people he had contact with while in Libya. What I do not understand is if this man was such a died in the wool American, what was he doing going over to help people in Libya on his own. If he wanted to help, there are NGOs that people can work with to go over and lend a hand. Going to a country like Libya solo at times like this are going to raise some red flags. If you end up meeting someone or are seen with a person that the intelligence community has doubts about, it is going to cast a shadow on you. I am not saying that guilt by association is right, but in this day and age it is a reality everyone should understand they need to live with. I know he supposedly went over to visit and help family who still live in Libya, but apparently there were other people he met with to help besides family that instigated this whole thing. Right or wrong, you need to be careful about who you associate with, particularly in a place like Libya. Even a casual meeting may raise flags and it may even be a person who is present in the same place that you are who you are not there to see and may not even know that causes the concern.

JD,

He immigrated here from Libya and was naturalized as a US citizen 33 yrs ago. His parents, siblings, aunts and uncles, neices and nephews .... not to mention childhood friends where going through that chaos. He was most likely worried aboutg them and wanted to make sure they were ok.

My father immigrated to the USA from Italy in Jan, 1955 after he married my mother, a US citizen, in Aug, 1954. 2 of his uncles were already here in the US. 2 of his cousins eventually immigrated here as well. THAT DID NOT MEAN HIS PARENTS, SIBLINGS, ETC WERE NOW DEAD TO HIM SINCE HE WAS A US CITIZEN! It merely meant that they were still in Italy and he was here. They wrote constantly ... caled on holidays like Christmas and Easter .... and we, as a family, saved so he could travel back and forth to Italy a few times over the 6 decades between his immigration here and his death. My grandparents came here for a few years at the time of my 1st communion and my youngest brother's birth. When I was 13, my father and brothers went to Italy for vacation. When I was 16, the whole family went there for vacation. It was the only time I had with my aunts, uncles, cousins etc and it was good. My parents went again during emergencies - the death of my maternal grandmother in 1973 and the death of my paternal grandmother in 1976 with the help of his employer. He went alone in 1988 for Christmas since his father was doing so poorly and it later turned out it had been his last chance to see him, then again with my mother in 1992. He wasnt able to go when my paternal grandfather died in 1991 since my mother was in the hospital with what was called a "grand stroke" and was teetering between life and death here. He went again with my neice in 1997. In the spring of 2007, I convinced him to visit his sisters and brother since he was missing them so much. I am glad he did ... he died in Feb, 2008.

All because people move to other places far away from their families, whether domestically (east coast to west coast, or somewhere in between) or internationally (as resident aliens or immigrants) doesnt mean they no longer care about those they "left behind". It merely means they left their "home town" to find a better life for themselves and their families. My father had no choice once he fell in love with my mother. He met my mother at her cousin's wedding in Italy .... they fell in love ... courted by mail for 3 years and if he wanted her to marry him, he had to agree to move here. She was a natural born citizen, born in Boston, MA and had no intentions of living anywhere else than in the USA. He agreed. That didnt mean he stopped loving his parents, siblings etc .... just he didnt love them the same way he loved my mom.

No matter what reasons people immigrate here or emmigrate from here are, that doesnt mean they stop living and loving. This American who immigrated here from Lybia was worried about his family because Gaddafi was so violent during that revolution and he went there to make sure his family there was safe. There is nothing "suspicious" of that. He is just caught up in the fourth wave of religious persecution this country of ours which GUARANTEES FREEDOM OF RELIGION FOR ALL has publically and legislatively immersed itself in since our inception as the USA.

The first was in the city of NY just after our Constitution was signed when Jews were denied the right to build a temple because they were jews and "not wanted" in our new country even though they fought beside us in that American revolution. Our newly formed US supreme court decided for the Temple in honor of our new constitution and the right to religious freedom. New Yorkers were NOT pleased. The second was during the mid 1800s when we denied citizenship and land ownership to Chinese and then threw them out of the US completely because we didnt want "those buddists" of a different culture here. Then we defined marriage as 1 man and 1 woman at the turn of the late 1890s to early 1900s to blackmail the mormons to change their religious tenet of muliple wives to gain statehood. They were refused statehood twice while we limited marriage with federal laws to one man and one woman. Finally they gave in and changed their religious doctrine to gain statehood in the USA (so much for religious freedom). The FLDS are merely those who refused to change their religious beliefs and as a result have been practicing "underground" which has lead to its perversions today (those same perversions today were normal practices for all christians, jews,muslims, buddhists, etc, back in the early 1900s. That legislative measure also made americans feel confident that those of "other non-christian religions" that did allow multiple wives would be discouraged from immigrating here since they would have to leavebehind some of their wives and children. Until then, NO COUNTRY OR CULTURE had defined marriage as only one man and one woman, only christianity (religion) of most denominations had done so and not until the middle ages. Look up polygamy laws and when they were enacted. It was the same time Utah was fighting for statehood. Now, 100 yrs later,we are going after muslims so we can justify stealing the oil most muslim theocracies sit upon and making Americans who are of the muslim faith pay for this country's and europe's greed.

There is so much too many do not know nor bother to see in this country that it makes me wonder how such ignorance and prejudice grew in the one and only nation that was conceived to stop it. All other nations were built upon conquist for power, not freedom for all. Have we gone so far as to have failed our founding fathers or is there still hope to recapture our legacy that they left us responsible for when they handed us that torch of freedom.

Yo Jolly, Islam is a fairly young religion. Look at the thousands who died during the crusades. The thousands who died during the Inquisition. They are having their holy war just like most major religions have. I just wonder whats gonna happen when the Scientology has its holy war, friggin UFOs gonna blast us?

After 9-11 everyone was more than willing to give up some personal freedoms to prevent another attack on our soil. Everyone was hand in hand, people in this country bound together to fight against an enemy that had dealt a blow to the american spirit. Slowly we began to get back to our daily lives, meanwhile the laws passed that took away are personal freedoms had already been passed. Freedoms many of our distant relatives bleed and died to get. We are guilty, but how, the constitution should have prevented this from ever happening. I feel like the second blow to america was dealt by ourselves out of fear. There has to be a better way to deal with this without taking away the most basic of our constitutional rights. Rewrite this law now.

I guess Jolly is off his meds again .......... LOL

I'll go half way on this one- He's a US citizen, so he has certain rights that should be upheld. That being said he was visiting a very volitile area of the world and he declined interviews by the FBI when detained. He didn't help his cause either. On the no fly list- I'd have thought that would have been the case prior to flying to Egypt, but who knows.

Should he have been locked up for a long time- likely not. Should he have had representation and talked sooner to the FBI- yes. I'm sure that the US Embassy, State Dept. and others could have assisted in the process.

It wasn't that he wouldn't talk, but he exercised his constitutional right to have an attorney present, no attorney, no interview, i bet if one had been provided, he would have answered any questions they asked.....having the attorney present is the smart move to make, the feds or police will do anything to make you say what they want too hear, the attorney can prevent you from making coerced statements that make you sound guilty when your not.

Google "Islam: What the West Needs to Know" and watch the video. It's free.

Then let's talk.

P.S. I, for one, was not and ma not willing to give up any freedoms for anything. "He who gives up freedom for safety deserves neither."

This should NEVER happen to an American citizen, regardless of origin! This is nothing more than Fascism. The Patriot Act must be repealled in its entirety. No citizen should be stripped of his rights because of a phobia. This gentleman is a true patriot pointing to the evil birthed by Dick Chenney and crew.

Sarah-3043284 Agree! Americans, All Americans need to fight back before we lose all of our rights. Rights are being stripped away at an amazing rate and it seems no one is fighting back. As a woman in the USA i find it Extremely Frightening.

JS in SD said:

If he wanted to help, there are NGOs that people can work with to go over and lend a hand.

According to another article I read, he's working with and for some national aid organizations that are working to restore peace and set up a new government in the wake of Ghadaffi's death.

JoeNY said:

That being said he was visiting a very volitile area of the world and he declined interviews by the FBI when detained.

He had interviews with the FBI. His problem was thst he was asked, prior to starting one interview if he would sign a waiver of his miranda rights that was the point at which he ended it all and got himself a lawyer. Waiving miranda rights means he gave up his right to stay silent, not to incriminate himself, gave up the right to have an attorney present while he was being questioned by police, gave up his right to not have the entire interview taped to be used later.

No citizen would give up those rights voluntarily.

I'm wondering why he was allowed to fly OUT of the US in the first place? If someone is on a no fly list, doesn't that mean flying in or out?

He did not submit to questioning by an FBI agent who contacted him in Tunis, he said, because he wanted a lawyer present.

----------------------

Looks like he either created or exacerbated his own problem. Something could have been arranged through the US Embassy had he been willing to do so.

Aviela - valid point. Seems as if, in our government, the right hand does not know what the left hand is doing. Then again, we do NOT know the whole story. Does anyone, even the people responsible for the actions of these people, really understand the consequences of their actions? Somehow, I doubt it.

I am just scared that, with relatives of mine, around the world, citizens, proud, of what they consider their home country, and with many years in the military of this country, I might be prevented from visiting them.

With this religious extremism, by ALL religions, taking center stage around the world, there is getting to be less and less tolerance of anyone that espouses a different viewpoint than the one professed by the majority in power, in all nations.

And when that extremism is demonstrated by extreme violence, it becomes a rapidly developing nightmare for the entire world.

Jwright~ Do you think the Muslims care that you are agnostic? Ultimately they will still hate you because you are of western culture... and even more so when they find out you don't believe in God. Just sayin.....

With that said, our government has entirely too much power. What we need is limited government.

No citizen would give up those rights voluntarily.

No citizen SHOULD give up those rights voluntarily!!

Miner, not everyone was hand-in-hand regarding the Patriot Act. However, those that voiced concerns about it were shouted down as being anti-American terrorist-coddlers that should go live somewhere else if they didn't like the law. Thank goodness this man has the gusts to stand up for his rights as an American citizen, rights that we all should value so much.

Exactly Frosty, we don't know the whole story. We only know what this man is saying. We don't know what the Feds have on him that caused him to put onto the "No Fly" list to start with.

As for those who consider this Racial profiling, get real. It's said that the list comprises some 21,000 persons. How many Muslim Americans are in this country? I'm sure it's much more than that. Is everyone on the list Muslim American? No one knows.

While I do try to be tolerant of all religions, I must confess that the violence of the Muslims against Western religions is frightening. I'm sure there are "moderate" Muslims, who like the rest of us want to live our lives in privacy and celebrate our religions in freedom.

Unfortunately, many Americans do not see these "moderates" on a day to day basis. What we see is Terrorist Muslims using children as suicide bombers, killing innocents and hearing about Muslims here and abroad who applaud when any disaster hits the western countries. We hear the Imam telling us to NOT provoke the aggressive Muslims as they may commit further attacks. What we don't hear are the Imam or other Islamic Heads CONDEMNING those attacks.

I will wait to hear the WHY of this story before I give any opinion on it.

Miner, not "everyone" was OK with giving up some liberty for freedom. I live in NY, just outside NYC. I could see the smoke, ash and soot that day, and called friends and family frantically to hear any news about my sister and my cousin, the former being a lawyer who had clients at #2 WTC, and the latter who worked in #7 WTC. Thankfully, neither were there that horrific day, but others I knew were. Some were injured, and others never made it out. My wife, a Federal employee, was evacuated from her building, though it bears no sign that it houses any Federal ADL courts. So i know all too well what 9/11 means, but how can I or anyone be Free if I surrender any of the Liberties that OBL and his murderous bunch killed so many of our fellow citizens for having access to them?

Benjamin Franklin was correct when he stated that anyone willing to give up liberty for security deserves neither. The moment the US became a police State under Bush/Cheney with the "Patriot Act" and secret renditions, GITMO, and the use of torture, the terrorists won. A terrorist seeks to cause you to change your life based upon the terror he/she has caused you to feel. By giving up even one scintilla of our freedom we handed them victory.

No, I am not willing to be safer at the cost of my Constitutional Rights, nor at the cost of other's Rights. Too many of my ancestors fought for this country since the 1860's and were wounded or killed in order for me to have the liberty the Constitution affords me and everyone else for me to dishonor their memories and sacrifices. First Shrub/Darth Cheney started us down a dark path, and now Obama has kept us upon that path. It is time the People of the US say to the Gov't enough of your spying on us, enough of your treating our fellow citizens, just because the call the god of Abraham Allah and not Yahweh or Jehovah, as guilty without ever even having the need to prove anything. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Mussolini, Kim and others of their ilk do such things, not the US Gov't, only now, it does. As they phrase goes we have met the enemy and it is us. Shame on us all for allowing this to happen. Like the poem goes, after they have come for everyone else, and now come for you, who will stand up for you? Time to Occupy Everywhere and tell the Gov't (local, State and Fed) no more witch hunts, no more un-Constitutional acts, no more treating people like less than human 9even as it treats Corporations as People). we need to oust every republican and every Blue-Dog Democrat out of office, no matter what level of gov't ASAP, and put in people who actually hold the Constitution dear, not merely something to pay lip service to while appeasing the wing-nuts. Only when we have people in office that will return our freedoms and liberties to us will we be safe.

First of all, unless you all have credible sources, and the proper credentials, none of you can claim to be any sort of expert in the field of Islam. Let's not present our prejudices as facts.

Furthermore...

1. If being Muslim is such a defining characteristic that we use it to profile people, than why don't we look at the majority of Muslims as opposed to a tiny minority?

2. Those who say "profiling" is okay, you're missing a few cars on the logic train. Using a discription to find a suspect, and placing in that discription words like, black, woman, Muslim garb is okay, as is stopping people who fit that description, because a crime has already been committed and witnessed. The issue here is that Muslims in general aren't suspects. If you say they are, than I refer you back to number one. Nor can you say prior terrorist attacks give us probable cause to suspect them, any more than you can say prior gang shootings give us probable cause to suspect the black race in general of gang activity. Individual specifics, after crimes are comitted, or evidence leading to individuals, give us probable cause. Not sweeping generalizations.

3. I always hear these claims of "Muslims celebrating in the streets of American towns on 9/11." I've yet to see a link to a news story about that though. I've also tried researching it on my own... Still nothing.

4. The other thing I always hear is "Well if they denounced terror..." Ahem, the American Muslim Council, Council on Islamic-American Relations, Islamic Circle of North America, Islamic Society of North America, Muslim American Society, and Muslim Public Affairs Council, all released statements condemning the act. I'm still waiting for the Vatican, The Protestants, The Methodists, The Baptists, White Men, White Woman, Jews, Black Men, Black Women... and every other demographic imaginable, to condemn all the crazy crap they've done to the world. And finally, why should I need an apology from someone, who didn't do it. I don't meet a white guy and expect him to denounce seriel killing, nor do I meet someone from El Salvador and expect them to denounce MS-13. We're not guilty til proven innocent.

5. Using the logic that most posters here use we could say... All German Americans should be scrutinized for being Nazi's. All Catholics should be surveilled because they may be pedophiles. All white Christians need to be searched extra hard for possible genocide plots... Let's face it, Muslims are simply the target du juor, because 9/11 was somewhat recent, and they're easy and seem different from us. Let's look at this in a context broader than a single decade, after all our lives and what occurrs during them, are a mere blink of the eye in the grand scheme of things. It's nothing so simple as, "Muslims hate us". Get real, this is a complicated issue with religion, politics, foreign policy, and history, all coming together.

6. Muslims have been here as long as Christians. We've yet to all die.

7. And, FYI, all religions say that their word is number one, over and above anything else. If not, than why do Christians scream about gay marriage? Hell, Torah, the Jewish holy book, means Law.

Janine, are you of the opinion that he must have done something? You wrote that the whole story has not been heard. What story do you need to hear? An American was treated like a criminal and a terrorist without being charged with ANYTHING! He was held in solitary confinement for two days then was forced to fly to Tunisia. Since when are Americans considered GUILTY until proven innocent? He was forced to spend thousands of dollars while being treated like he had committed a crime. He had to hire a lawyer and live outside the country for six weeks. Essentially, he was forced to pay thousands of dollars and spend six weeks outside of his country without ever being charged, tried and convicted.

You still okay with that?

I, for one, do not believe that we need to get rid of all the "Blue Dog" Democrats or all of the Republicans like No Party Affiliation said. By the way, for No Party Affiliation, it sure sounds like a Democrat talking! I believe that we should limit all Senate & Congressional terms to 6 years to include Presidential. If they can't get it done in 6 years, then their successors can try. Republicans help out Big Business and Democrats want us all to be dependent on Food Stamps and other Government Assistance while only 50% of us are paying the taxes. Get Real! I also believe that all US Citizens have the right to Due Process and there should be a very solid explanation on why this man wasn't allowed to re-enter our Country. Our rights are slowly being eroded and the ones that are tasked to protect us, the Government, seem to be the same ones denying us our them. Let's keep the same people in Office that are there now and we won't recognize the USA in 5 years.

I'm sure, like most Muslims who travel abroad, he was probably seen meeting with some individuals who he should not have been meeting with. Lay with dogs; Get flees. The indisputable and very real truth is that most individuals born in to Islam and raised in Islamic countries are programmed as children that women are a sub-species and that Americans, Christians and Jews are evil. When they immigrate to the US, some of them DO have a slight "change of heart" but still hold true to a lot of their core beliefs and consider themselves "better" than the people around them because, in their mind, they belong to the 'true' religion and the rest of us are destined to burn in hell. Other Muslim immigrants come here, specifically, to follow the teachings of the Qur'an and "go forth" and spread Islam throughout the world. While here, they have no quams about financially supporting foreign terrorism and Muslim extremists. In some instances, such as Fort Hood, they begin to feel overwhelmed by the lack of "respect for Allah" and his people and snap and commit acts of terrorism themselves because they view American society as an abomination. The sad fact is that they ALL WANT strict laws and regulations regarding dress, behavior and speech, they do not believe the Constitution should be the backbone of American law and they think Capitalism is evil and Socialism should be the economic policy of the U.S. Capitalism is not at fault in our current world crisis, It is the socialist sabotage of Capitalism that has brought us where we are. Things like the Fair Housing Act, The Bank and Auto bailouts and perpetual social programs are NOT capitalist ideas and have circumvented the natural order of Capitalism to succeed at every turn.

repost: originally by Volly

@ jolly joker:

if you bothered to find out how many Christians that have hid behind a flag that have murdered men, women, children, and babies just because they followed a different god than the one you worship then you would change your tune.

BTW - read the story of Moses and the ten plagues. Your god is documented murdering babies. - remember the death to the first born?

19

#1.4 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:08 PM EST

The indisputable and very real truth is that most individuals born in to Islam and raised in Islamic countries are programmed as children that women are a sub-species

Give me a second to sit down, it takes a while when you have an Aspirin clenched between your knees. Just out of curiosity, have you been watching what's been occurring, right here, in the U.S., by Christians, these last few weeks????

We'll start with my favorite. The good Christians in VA's state government, have decided it's okay for the government to force objects up women's bodies, without their consent and without any medically necessary purpose for it.

And please, what are your credentials that you speak with such authority on what "Muslims" think, feel, want, learn, and pray for?

And than, please provide your legal argument, as to why it is okay for us to circumvent the Constitution.

By what right does the US Government decide where a US Citizen can and can't move about ? Doesn't the US Constitution have something about freedom of speech and assembly ? How can a person freely assemble, talk, petition his government if he is prevented by that very same government from moving about ?

The "no-fly" list as applied to US Citizens is an illegal and unconstitutional action. The FBI keeps the list secret because they know that it is illegal and if they published the information they would be subject to challenge.

Also, what ever happened to the right to confront your accussers ?

I don't know the exact quotation, or who said it but difficult situations do make bad laws.

The attacks of 9/11/2001 were the worst the country had in 60 years. The Patriot Act and the actions of the government to suppress the rights of its citizens in response are also the worst the country has had in 60 years.

@sheepherder1 you consider something created in 622 AD as fairly new? It is older than the United States, should people not take us seriously since we are brand spanking new using your timeline gauge? Shouldn't Christianity be considered 'fairly new' since it is less than 600 years older than the Muslim faith? Should everyone convert to Judaism or an older religion? Who knew that something that is almost 1400 years old is considered new. BTW, I am nor do I EVER plan on being Muslim

There was an early arguement about why this man was allowed to fly over seas to start with, and that is a valid question, which I believe is just not considered, just returning or entering people are under consideration.

Then there was some reference to going to the embassy to see if they will be permitted to return "Home". First of all this list is secret, it appears that no living human being is able to access this knowlege. HUH You cannot defend yourself if you have no knowlege you are being investigated, and cannot be told you are being investigated, or for what. And since noone has access to this knowlege, there must be a secret machine somewhere that generates a name that is put on this "NO Fly List" which is a part of the infamous Patriot Act.

This whole idea defies all reality, my feeble mind cannot conceive how this all works. The Patriot Act defies all Constitutional percepts. How can any human being defend themselves, from something that they cannot be told what it is, they are accused of?

Our forefathers had an inkling that something like this Patriot Act could be considered. They wrote a Constitution they thought would prevent and circumvent such an idea that is so repugnant to most people, that it could never, or would never become a law in our beloved Country. I sincerely pray that this Patriot Act and all the little definitions, that have been spawned of that act, is repealed the next time it has to be renewed, or sooner if possible.

If I can find any fault in our current administration, it is the continuance of this act, when it was opportune to repeal it. This is one of its major failings.

Recycled Hope, where did you get your information to be able to state as fact "those same perversions today were normal practices for all christians, jews,muslims, buddhists, etc, back in the early 1900s.". I know of no religions, mormon included, that advocated child brides as young as 12 years old as the Warren Jeff's group did. The language and style you use in your post lends a person to believe you know what you are talking about. You come off as intelligent. However, read with a critical eye, much of what you stated as facts are simply your opinion. There IS a difference. Please provide credible sources as to the above quoted statement.

Sarah, You are delusional and feeble minded. You are the perfect uber liberal left wing sheep that Islam hopes to one day convert or kill. I live about 100 feet from the Largest Mosque in Oklahoma. I have spoken with several Muslims, former Muslims and activists for both sides. I have read the Qu'ran and studied the Hadith. I am very good friends with "the Qu'ran burner", Jesse Quinn Harrison and supported him during his media ignored 45 day occupation of Islam.

As for your feelings regarding the great people of VA, So the fact that a device designed to pressure wash or mince up the fetus is not nearly as obtrusive as one designed to hear and/or see it, is perfectly acceptable? When you consider the fact that she has obviously given her consent for something resulting in her consent for the "blender on a stick" to be shoved up there, seems the added inconvenience of the least intrusive device, so far, wouldn't be that big of a deal. The law requires her consent for a vaginal abortion, which includes whatever the Doctors and Law says is required to complete the procedure. If the law said the doctor could use a weed wacker, a can of hair spray and a match, or any other barbaric torture device to actually KILL the child you'd be ok with it? You just don't want to hear or see the little bastard first...I get it.

Lastly, I do not believe in circumventing the Constitution. Show me again where the "Right to fly, miserably with the rest of the masses, on sub-standard high speed death machines" is located. Seems you are concerned with subverting the Constitution and that is AWESOME! Did you hear they are mandating that all citizens purchase health insurance or suffer fines and penalties? Did you hear that Obama vowed to reprimand those responsible for burning a book in Afghanistan? Did you hear that Obama's department of labor has stated and made infomercials telling undocumented workers that they have rights to a fair wage in America and offers them an anonymous toll free number to report "their abuser"? Did you know that the President has to address Congress within 60 days of starting a war according to the War Powers Act? Did you know he STILL hasn't addressed Congress regarding Libya. Did you know that Obama doesn't have to obey subpoenas like the rest of us and faces no recourse for failure to appear? http://work949.wordpress.com/2012/02/10/obama-ignores-subpoena-fails-to-appear-in-court-american-press-corps-not-interested/

Get a brain...or at least an independent thought of your OWN once in a while. The sooner you realize that your being manipulated and herded around like cattle to the voting booth, the better off ALL of us will be.

Our liberal Administration only talks liberal.. They just got the ball from Bush and Obama has kept running with it.. Its all about loss of rights and hate.

"blender on a stick"

Considering that the "stick" would be only "needed" in the first few weeks, women who would have it performed would probably be taking the pill-not that your reference makes any sense regardless...

The irony for me is that Sharia law accepts contraception when used to space out children, for the mother's health or if a family cannot afford another child. Far more progressive than many people here....

Not that I believe for a moment that we are in danger of being run by Sharia law-or advocating that it would be better. I was hoping to support Sarah's point that conservative religious beliefs are creeping into our laws here in the same way we are critical of in Muslim nations.

Sarah,

This is twice now that I have actually agreed with you. I do take a small exception to a christian comment, but it was necessary to your point. (Crazy is crazy whether christian or islam)!

Soooo, I am looking up at the sky watching for pigs.....!!!

It would seem that we learned nothing from Pearl Harbor and the actions of our government.

AlienMartian--Bravo. From what you say, I know you've actually read Islamic holy books--it is obvious that Sarah304etc. has not.

I have just read 3 of Robert Spencer's books (who incidentally uses exact passages from the Koran and The Hadith, to prove his points about Islam). There are several good English translations of the Koran and many of the Hadith considered authentic that support these assertions, especially the ones about women and the dhimmi (unbeliever, infidel, Christian, Jew, agnostic).

Sarah--it's nice to want to defend everybody--but you should know a little more about what you're defending. They are using our laws against us to infiltrate our systems, then they intend to use their laws to subdue us. BTW, Christianity was on the planet for nearly 600 years BEFORE ISLAM, and the Crusades were a (misguided) delayed response to the Islamic invasion (yes, INVASION) of these Christian places and forced (at the point of a sword, mostly) conversions to Islam (or subjection to a high-tax on Christians and Jews and an extreme reduction in their rights).

It's not so big...until its YOUR number, if YOU or a loved one got on that list.

What happened to due process? What happened to transparency? And why do we have dimestore cowboys like the TSA handling our security, instead of a legitimate agency, with bona fide trained personnel like the FBI or the Armed services?

We are neither safe or secure if we let Big Brother start calling the shots...otherwise it will be 1984 here and now, and freedom as we knew it will be history.

Ohhhh she stuck up for her poooooost in your face thomas lol

The US has already past the no return point

You have already freely given up to many freedoms. Once the govrtnment get there hands on in it you are screwed and that applies to any government accross the world

It is a very sad day for what ever reason when the US begins to exile its own citizens from their own country. It is quite frankly disgusting.

This mans ordeal is an outrage and should be seen as such by every American who believes in freedom and the Constitution. This has to stop! We have conceded to the terrorists - they have won the war!!

@Wm. Sanders,

It's not TSA, it's TSC which is run by the FBI, a "legitimate agency".

jolly joker - Judging from your comments you don't really appear to be a christian and therefor don't have anything to worry about.

If you can't be tried on secret evidence in court, then why should you be secretly put on the no-fly list? It's ridiculous. If you happen to be on the list, you should at least be told why exactly you're on the list, and you should have the right to explain yourself.

@jollyjoker Give it up! Your religion wanted to exterminate the muslims, it was called the Crusades. I just wonder when christians will stop believing that they are so pure because they have as much blood in their closets too.

Who cares what his religion was? The government was able to keep an American citizen from returning home. People of any religion can be put on the same list. Worse, just the act of adding someones name to the list seems to sway the public into believing that person is a terrorist.

If they were actually terrorists, it wouldn't be a no-fly list, it would be an arrest and prosecute list.

@JEH09...Considering the context of this story, what's the real difference?

What's the magic number we can ban before it gets out of hand?

2 kids are killed in a kids car seat and we recall 6 million of them.

And I don't believe we were behind limiting freedoms after 9/11, we were just called unpatriotic by the government if we didn't go along.

Wm sanders said:

And why do we have dimestore cowboys like the TSA handling our security, instead of a legitimate agency, with bona fide trained personnel like the FBI or the Armed services?

TSA is a component division of Homeland Security, whose other components include FEMA, USCIS, USCBP, ICE, The US Coast Guard, and the US Secret Service, as well as other components like the Office of Legislative Affairs and the Office of Civil Rights and Civil Liberties.

This is America, even 1 out of 370 million is 1 to many. Stop letting the fear mongers make you afraid of your own shadow.

Indeed. I do not understand how this is not a due process issue. There is no right to appeal, there is no judicial consideration and they won't even say who is on the list in the first place.

Ok so they are on a no fly list big deal they (Muslims) need to be watched and tracked they are all terrorists and deserve to be treated as such. Also they cry when it's supposed discrimination against them. but they can discriminate against U.S in any way they want. They all need to be banned from the United States and back to the caves they came from, And if the FBI, Homeland security, and the DOJ wants to watch them and put them on a no fly list then go for it. It's an awesome way to track the terrorists. They deserve no right to appeal or consideration it's national security so deal with it they attacked US or have we all forgotten about September 11, 2001 the Darkest day since pearl Harbor.. and without provocation so they get what they deserve were in a war and during war the ends justify the means. we are safer because the means we enforce a no fly list and watch potential suspects how about the attempted capital hill bomber a week ago. The cave dweller who shot up Fort Hood the mosques that preach hatred every day in the U.S and elsewhere i was in Iraq and Afghanistan defending this great nation and was injured by those cave dwelling, camel jockeys. so do cry because were safer and some Cave dweller was not allowed to come into our country, he spent time among people who think like him and are just like him. for once i applaud the US Government for watching our back and protecting us now if the courts would get it right we wouldn't have these issues.

Actually Thomas Kaiser not all Muslims are terrorists I have plenty of Muslim friends who are no bigger a threat than you or I, especially considering you've decided its your right to shoot people who come near your home based on their religion. Considering that who's the real threat? Oh and having relatives who fought in The American Revolution doesn't make you any more or less American than anyone else. After all I'm a son of the revolution too.

I have to agree just one American citizen being dispossessed or expelled from his Country is too many. Actually I also think his way of fighting this action is the right way.

Spewing hatred is absolutely no answer at all, perhaps it is those that do spew hate and discontent could be dispossessed under this type of act, and look at this from that point of view.

Perhaps this whole affair will precipitate the repeal of the Patriot Act. I certainly hope so.

I agree it has gone too far. It is a slippery slope and things are sliding quickly back into witch-hunt mentality.

He's been trying to find out why for over a year now, contacted provincial govt officials and US officials...he is told the U.S. has no comment as to why.

Probably for the best Carl...considering some of the posts I've read tonite. But I agree with spiritus333...it's gotten to the point of absurdity.

What do they take for ID at the canadian border nowadays?

I'm reasonably certain it takes a passport.

His only travel is to come down here to southern California to visit with us over the years. He's 81 years old and has been coming here for the past 40+ years with his wife (they love the California/Arizona desert) until she passed 8 years ago, then just him to see me and his daughter (my wife). He has no problems with Canadian travel, it's the US border with US agents that won't let him through.

Carl said:

My Canadian father-in-law who has been coming down here for the last 40 years is no longer allowed to cross the border from British Columbia Canada into the US and he is not allowed to know why...and he is not a muslim, has never been in any kind of trouble or ever belonged to any organizations of any kind. This whole thing about security has gone way too far.

Here's something that might offer some insight, your father-in-law is not the only one:

Vancouver psychotherapist Andrew Feldmar has been barred from entering the United States. The reason? During a random stop-and-search at a US/Canadian border crossing, a Google search of his name led to his article from the Spring 2001 'Janus Head: Journal of Interdisciplinary Studies in Literature, Continental Philosophy, Phenomenological Psychology, and the Arts.' In it Feldmar describes two acid trips he took under the supervision of his graduate advisor in psychology -- in 1967. This turns out to have been enough to earn him a life-time ban under the grounds of 'admitted drug use.'

Amanda, if that is the case, probably 95% of congress, (and I'm sure most of our recent presidents,) should not be allowed to cross any border or board any aircraft. I'm not saying your statement is incorrect, as it is actually a vaild comment. (Seen it first hand, up here in the northeast, but the Candians were the ones preventing people from crossing the border into their country. One of our drivers could not cross the border because he had a D.U.I. down here.)

Frosty said:

Amanda, if that is the case, probably 95% of congress, (and I'm sure most of our recent presidents,) should not be allowed to cross any border or board any aircraft.

Except for something called diplomatic immunity. But I do agree with you--laws should be applied fairly, across the board, to everyone.

Its all a sham, the no fly list is simply a tool. By having some secret list that nobody is allowed to see, they essentially can put anybody on it for any reason and people will automatically think the worst of them. It is the erosion of the concept of innocent until proven guilty. What good does a no fly list do when the CIA purposely circumvents the process to get people on board with fake bombs so the TSA can buy thousands of body scanners from their buddies.

Can't disagree with you Moose...and for good measure we should revisit the Patriot Act, and that recent legislation making Armed service personnel essentially de facto police, in violation of the Posse Comitatas Act. Our government is essentially declaring open season on its own people. Today it is Muslims, but what about tomorrow? Next year? Ten years from now? Things like this make me sick to my stomach.

I sure would not be happy getting on a plane with someone who looked like your avatar. LOL. I wonder how old you are since many of your postings seem fairly childish and without historic basis.

Moose said:

By having some secret list that nobody is allowed to see, they essentially can put anybody on it for any reason and people will automatically think the worst of them. It is the erosion of the concept of innocent until proven guilty.

It's not an erosion, it's been happening for years. With Homeland Security, you're guilty until YOU prove you're innocent.

I was adopted internationally as an infant by a vietnam vet and his wife, who never told me before they passed away suddenly in a car accident. 18 years after my adoption, USCIS finds out they lost/misfiled my adoption paper and came to me. When I told them I knew nothing about it they decided that made me illegal and they put me in a deportation camp. I spent 3 years there writing to every courthouse in 3 states trying to find my adoption decree--ICE and USCIS both told me it wasn't their responsibility to prove i was NOT adopted; it was my responsibility to prove I WAS.

I am now a naturalized citizen, married, 2 children. My youngest is autistic and when i went to social services to file for assistance for him so he can get specialized educational services, they at first denied him because of my 'former illegal' status. It's hard for me to get a job because I'm required to tell every employer that I have a 3 year prison record with immigration for being a former illegal. And that employment disclosure contract I had to sign with ICE before they would let me out says if my name ever comes in front of them for ANY reason, they can revoke my naturalization at will and put me in the deportation camp again. And let me note for the record here--I can't be deported because i was an abandoned infant, there is no paperwork that says who I was born to, where I was born, what my name was or even how old I am.

Wm Sanders said:

...that recent legislation making Armed service personnel essentially de facto police, in violation of the Posse Comitatas Act. Our government is essentially declaring open season on its own people. Today it is Muslims, but what about tomorrow? Next year? Ten years from now?

There's a new law making its way through the House and Senate called the Enemy Expatriation Act. When it passes, anyone suspected of terrorism (like the people on the no-fly list) can be stripped of their citizenship and held by the US military indefinitely without charge or trial until the war on terror is over.

And DHS has expanded their definition of 'terrorism' to include alternate media, anti-technology extremists (those who don't allow any kind of technology in their homes) as well as Muslim radicalists, Christian Identity movement, the Patriot movement, militias, Black Nationalism, Jewish radicalists, and practitioners of Norse mysticism (Odinists.) Seriously, when was the last time someone blew up a building 'in the name of the AllFather Odin?' As a practicing pagan, I do know a couple of Odinists and the only thing I ever saw them destroy was a castle during a Dungeons & Dragons game!

I read what you have been posting here and I don't think you should be allowed outside of your house.

Perhaps slow starvation WOULD be best.

ScottPin said:

This will also allow the TSA to stop stopping law abiding citizens based on hear-say and inuendo from "un-named sources"!

Real situation:

There are two people getting a divorce. Spouse 1 called Homeland Security and reported Spouse 2 as a terrorist. A month later when Spouse 2 went to fly she found out that report placed her on the no-fly list, so in retaliation she reported Spouse 1 as a terrorist. Now their 31 year old son, who shares the same name as Spouse 1, can't fly on business and lost his job because of inability to travel. It's a little hard being a travel agent and having your name be on the no-fly list!!!!

Haven't you watched the movie Rendition? Especially the end with the interviews of real people who were extraordinarily rendered?

The government could care less about protecting citizens, the only thing they care about is protecting themselves. Well, they may keep us alive just to provide funding for their whims.

Lets face Ted Kennedy was dangerous ... especially behind the wheel of a car. Maybe his blood level did not match his alcohol level at time of flight.

They just stopped Rand Paul as well .... equal opportunity offenders the TSA.

A perfect example of why the Patriot Act and the TSA and the various no fly rules will never, ever go away.

We the people were stupid enough to reelect this drunken murderer how may times? If we don't care, why should they?

Stimulator *grin*

No, we should never forget 9-11. And no doubt the govt not only watches certain groups, they also (thanks Canada) monitor all of our phone calls and a lot of the internet activity. But each American citizen who is on that list needs to know why, and have a chance to clear themselves.

Or Dandaman, we can kiss what little freedom we may have left goodbye. I don't care about offending any group, that is not the problem here. The problem is you could be on that list, or me, now I don't know about you, but I damn sure want to know why I can't fly if I want to.

SallyAnn I dont disagree with you at all. My point is that people want to blame America or racist white people or George Bush for the problem of this guy not being able to fly. Why dont people blame Bin Laden and terrorist groups for him not being able to fly. They shouild tell him why he cant fly but put the blame on terrorists not on the rest of us.

Offending a certain group is one thing, the ordeal this man went through is quite another.

I agree, but dont blame me or my race or Bush or the FBI. Why not blame Bin laden and terrorists.

Pete, calm down, your bigotry is showing.

Pete, have you heard of a thing called "innocent until proven guilty?" what about "freedom of religion"? It's an American thing. If you don't like it, you might prefer to live somewhere less civilized. I can suggest a few countries you might like judging by the sound of your post.

hey pete do you remeber the crusades? they were the first religion to start it all. so all catholics and christians need to change religions is that it? more like your ignorance is showing.

Dandaman, your lack of common sense bothers me. Did you miss the part that informs that this man has been an American citizen for 33 years? Detaining him for extra scrutiny is sensible. Denying him entry back to his own country is stupid. Forcing him to go back to Tunisia is lunacy. You are an absolute fool if you agree with any of what was done to this man. You are comfortable with it because Muslims are the target of this insanity. But how will you feel when Christians or atheists or white men become the target? Are you certain that this will never happen? Could you have guessed that a 60 yr old American would be on the no fly list?

I dont know why he is on a no fly list and neither do you and I dont care. I feel for this guy and I dont know why he was sent back to Tunisia and I also have no problem with Muslims. My point is that people get on here and blame right wing christian and white racists and me and you and I blame Bin Laden and terrorists that have attacked this country and U S citizens including muslims and continue to do so. I dont lack common sense and I am not an absolute fool, I never said I agree with what happened to this guy because I dont know why it happened and neither do you. Because of terrorism we have to accept that things like this might happen, we dont have to like it.

and what religion are you? catholic? christian? if so then you are part of a bad group too.

A boomer, I take it. What the heck have you ever done for anyone? Don't worry, we mimic our grandparents' generation, and we are going to make this country great again. Leave as big a mess for us as you please. We'll handle it.

I think you should be apologizing to me and the rest of the entering workforce who are going to have to pay this guy's court fees and millions in damages. Thanks a lot.

The best policy we have implemented is locking the cockpit door.

What does 9/11 have to do with him? Did he fly the planes? Did he help the terrorists? No, otherwise he would be in jail, not on some stupid no-fly list.

There are 2.2 billion Muslims in the world. 9/11 was perpetrated by like 20 people. Pretty hard to call all Muslims terrorist for the actions of .0000001% of them.

There are 2.2 billion Muslims in the world. 9/11 was perpetrated by like 20 people. Pretty hard to call all Muslims terrorist for the actions of .0000001% of them.

-----------------------

Since you are so into math, tell us: What % of those who hijacked the planes on 9/11 were Moslems? And not just Moslems but Moslems carrying out a sacred jihad in the name of Allah? I guess they were violating the EEOC by excluding Christians and Jews.

Lorraine, you are something else. Mainly, a rather uninformed, compassionless individual.

He did not submit to questioning by an FBI agent who contacted him in Tunis, he said, because he wanted a lawyer present.

----------------------

Looks like he either created or exacerbated his own problem. If you are trying to get a situation resolved, you don't not talk to someone investigating the situation unless you have something to hide. If you absolutely had to have an attorney or witness, something could have been arranged through the US Embassy had he been willing to do so.

Cincinnati Rick said:

Looks like he either created or exacerbated his own problem. If you are trying to get a situation resolved, you don't not talk to someone investigating the situation unless you have something to hide. If you absolutely had to have an attorney or witness, something could have been arranged through the US Embassy had he been willing to do so.

He had interviews with the FBI. His problem was that he was asked, prior to starting one interview, if he would sign a waiver of his Miranda rights. That was the point at which he ended it all and got himself a lawyer. Waiving Miranda rights means he gave up his right to stay silent, not to incriminate himself, gave up the right to have an attorney present while he was being questioned by police, gave up his right to not have the entire interview taped to be used later. we all know how easy it is to take a completely innocent comment out of context.

No citizen would give up those rights voluntarily.

Yeah Rick, no lawyer... you are a smart one now aren't you... /s/

Amanda -

He needed to waive his Miranda rights to speak without a lawyer. He chose not to. He exacerbated the situation by doing so. If he had nothing to hide, he could have signed the paper, answered the questions, and gone back to Portland.

And yes, most citizens would sign that paper and answer the questions asked, because we have nothing to HIDE.

It just sickening to hear the mentality that says "If you have nothing to hide, then you shouldn't be afraid of a search" from so many people. No one should have to submit to a search or questioning by the government without probable cause. Otherwise, the Bill of Rights might as well be repealed. I always thought that as Americans, we were supposed to have the guts to stand up to tyranny in any form. Am I wrong about that?