Very sad....

What is happening in today's society?

Girl, 12, found naked and rummaging in trash for food in Calif.

8-year-old girl critically wounded in Washington state school shooting.

Girl, 11, dies within hours of after-school fight.

How can we call this a civilized society?

This is the most advance nation on the face of the earth. This is the richest nation on the face of the earth. This nation has the best technology on the face of the earth. With so much resources and we are the only nation that gives so, so, so much to the rest of the world with our blood and money, how can we go so wrong here at home?

its called human nature... no matter if its 3000 years ago or 3000 years from now. Yes we can get better and teach better, but we still have urges, feelings, addictions, and mental instability. The best we can do is learn from it and put in place the best corrective actions possible without infringing to drastic on our liberties.

Dark Demon x - sorry bub, its NOT the teachers responsiblity to raise your kids

11 year old girls fighting over a boy? Over a boy?

What you have said Makes me believe that therfe are still some sane people left in the world......The basic human instints you mentioned will always be within humanity..The idea is to learn how to control the more dustructive impulses.....but here we are talking about children, still at a learning level..Learning aout their urges and issues.As adults, we need to gain more control over our childrens ehavior

@ C-1441573
I hate to tell you this but this has went on for ages clear back to the stone age, its not just now a days.
The only thing is we hear more about it due to the news has to get there hands and mouths in every thing that happens bad now. They can't report on all the good things going on.

How sad. How tragic.

Religion is the problem and responsibility diffusionare all the rage. People overly sensitive to issues around us and parents not allowing schools to discipline children. What happened to the trust amongst teachers and parents? What happened to personal accountability? Technology doesn't magically grant reason and much less logic. Until religion dies this country and world are doomed.

I always expect weird responses to articles on here, but this one is weird even by the weirdest standards.... Religion has somehow pushed discipline from the schools and is somehow to blame for two 11 year old girls fighting?!

I am guessing you just have a deep seated hatred of religion and see it as the root cause to every problem you ever see or encounter.... Join reality, man!

Fifth grade girls fighting over a boy? Times have changed since I was that age.

Girls aren't testosterone driven moron and the Ohio school shooting that just occured didn't happen in a Mexican neighborhood. You're biggotry is shining bright.

One thing is very evident in this country. The kids are picking up on the adults craziness.

I think we should wait for the autopsy results to see what exactly happened here. You'd be suprised at what is found sometimes. In any event it is the traggic loss of a young life. Even if injuries from the fight are to blame, I hope that the other girl is not charged with a crime. Kids that age should not be charged but she should undergo counceling and have people work with her to make sure this does not happen again. Make teach her how problems can be solved with words not fists. Society has really gone down the drain.

Dark Demon, did you read the same article as the rest of us. What does religion have to do with this event.

C,

We are no longer the richest, the most advanced, nor do we have the best technology anymore.

Corportations, in order to earn that extra buck, have moved all of our technology production to China and India.

The only thing they care about is the bottom line and, unfortunately, children do not factor in to the bottom line as far as corportations are concerned.

And Jayfos, I think Dark Deamon was lamenting about the disconnect between parents and teachers. I don't believe he said anything about school or teachers raising kids. You are right, we are not in that business. However discipline (and I'm not talking about physical stuff, just suspensions, detentions, etc) of any kind seem now to drive a wedge between the teachers and the parents.

Stop the Bullsh1t So Automatically you hear a Spanish surname and it has to be Mexicans fighting. Your ignorance is glowing. It is sad that you used a commonsense name and have none. Why don't you stop the racist Bullsh1t

There are many different countries that people with Spanish surnames come from. Including Native Americans from the west. My father is Native American and we have a Spanish surname. And i do not fly a Mexican flag. Kids are fighting like this a for no real good reason. All over our country and not just in some ghetto. Another community losing another child is a sad day. No matter the race of the child.

Those peoples kids is our nations attitude. When it should be OUR nations kids. It takes a community effort to raise a child. Example is to teach by example. Using manners and treating others better than we expect to be treated. It goes a long way.

Big Jeff-

You are mostly right. While we are among the richest countries, we are becoming more like the underdeveloped nations where there are a few haves and many have nots. Big Corporations spend millions on advertising, pushing their products down our throats but move the ability to work and buy them to other countries.

It's no suprise the populace is acting like a third world country.

Since Jayfos dragged the topic in that direction - Please write a four paragraph essay examining the difference between your position insisting that secularists insist God has no place in society, and contrast and compare the position that all religious observances must conform to your opinion as to their appropriateness.

My mother was a teacher and counselor for many years. It used to be that parents taught their kids respect for authority. Don't go against the teacher. Teachers could discipline kids, and the parents would give the teachers the benefit of the doubt with interactions with their kids.

Nowadays it's "My child can do no wrong". If the kid is failing or fighting, it's the teacher's fault, for not doing anything about it. It's not the responsibility of teachers to raise your kids, but sadly most parents don't act that way. They think it IS the responsibility of the teachers to do it, and the parents don't do a thing, except complain to the administration and give the kids the benefit of the doubt not the teacher.

I would say it's because of bad parenting, but more than anything I blame the fact that today both parents need to work, so who has the time to do proper parenting? Divorce and single parents raising kids is also to blame. Latch-key kids who have to take care of themselves. If the economy and jobs were such that someone could actually have the time and energy to actually be a parent, I think that would go a long way to improving life for kids, and society.

Thanks BigJeff, you have addressed exactly what I wanted to but perhaps much better than I would have. :-)

Ken-1575988 -
I agree that parents should take the biggest part of the responsibility but the teachers should also take enough responsibility to make parents fully aware of what is happening at school whether it's fighting, failing or bullying/being bullied.
But I do not think being a single parent has anything to do with it.
I, a single parent, raised my son who is now 21, about to finish college as a programmer and is working as an intern. He does not drink, smoke and is respectful of others. He did not accomplish all of this due to economic status either. He worked very hard to get where he is and I as his only parent did also.
I did not choose to be a single parent either but was dealt a bad hand and widowed at a young age.

The teachers and parents had nothing to do with the fight. The girls planned to fight and they went at it. We had fist fights at my school several times. I got into a fight with the school bully in the 1st grade. We both got paddled for the fight so I guess we both lost. Kids fighting has always happened.

Jayfos, Amen brother! We are who we are, imperfect beings, animal in nature and driven by mental processes that are powerful as they are irrational. When we don't have what we need, when we are emotionally injured, when the demands placed on us exceed the resources we possess to meet those demands, we break. "There but for the grace of God go I," is the common attribution. I am a secularist, so I chalk it up more to luck, effort and decision making. Nonetheless I congratulate, even envy, those who draw true strength from their belief in a loving, just God.

The best we can do is to advance as a society so that those who inherit our place in this world enjoy greater access to the tangible resources they need and face fewer obstacles to personal growth and happiness. And we can use reason to suppress our baser motives in raising our children to love themselves, to love others and to fulfill their personal potential to do good in the world. Even at that, there will always be things we cannot control, and there will always be conflicts and tragedies.

"Martinez and other friends said they tried to stop the fight, but were held back by boys who were watching and wanted it to continue."

I suspect the 'boys' will feel bad - for about 3 seconds. Then they'll shrug their shoulders and say - Oh well, can't let something like someone getting killed get in the way of a few moments of entertainment. Punks.

Dark Demon X, you're soooo right. I can totally see the correlation between two girls fighting over a boy and religion.

[insert sarcasm]

i feel for the parents; a Loved one is Gone Forever..CONDOLENCES..;(......

"I told the teacher and she said she would talk to all the girls on Monday," Guadalupe said.

For those of you saying it's not the teacher's job to raise our kids; disapproving of the boys who held the girls back who tried to break up the fight; citing how disrespectful kids today are; and how parents are lackadaisical when it comes to our kids. There appears to be plenty of blame to go around, so why isn't anyone addressing the fact that a teacher's delay may have played a role in this as well. In all fairness, I'm sure the teacher didn't expect the result to be death. But as a parent, if a student was concerned enough to bring this situation to an adult's attention, shouldn't that at least warrant a phone call to the parent's to make them aware of the situation so it doesn't escalate over the weekend.

I am amazed at the disappearance today of those who promote this sort of behavior as a way for a child to learn to stand on their own two feet. And no, that does not mean all of those who are only stating that these things have always happened.

After the fight she went back to class and started vomiting should have been an indication to the person in charge of the after school program that tis child may have been suffering from a concussion after the fight????? I am sure the person in charge knew of the fight--evident by just looking at the reddened bruises and dirty clothes. For after school program adult to do nothing brings up lack of responsibility.

Did they know of the fight---probably as such is difficult to keep quiet at a public school.

People need to understand that we are beings of emotion.. There is absolutely no one to blame in this situation, so people need to stop trying to blame anyone.

They are kids, you can't keep kids on a short leash until they are 18 years old... kids have to be able to make decisions on their own.. I know it's terrible when something like this happens... but kids aren't delicate little flowers that should be kept into a basement to ensure their survival.

Stop, testosterone, in 11 year old GIRLS, really, and a racist to boot!

There is no one to blame but these two girls and the way they are brought up. I'm sure their parents loved them, etc etc, but at 11 yrs old to think it is "normal" to fight over a boy? really? That's not normal.

All said and done, two kids got in a fight and 1 is dead from a bloody nose? Facts are that, we don't have the facts yet so why are there so many people here trying to solve the worlds problems when you don't even know what happened yet?

Learn to listen and it's amazing what you'll hear and then see.

Nonsense, schoolyard fights over boys happen all the time, and it's nothing new.

I do wish MSNBC knew how to use a comma correctly though. They throw one in every few words sometimes..."Ramos, returned to the after-school program after the fight and some time later vomited, the girl's aunt Patricia Catalan, told the Press-Telegraph newspaper at a memorial in the elementary school." WTF? It's like a kid wrote this.

charge with murder.. Send a message to kids that fighting is not to be tolerated!!

I hope no one goes jail-crazy and starts pressing charges for a kids fight with a tragic, accidental end. Kids fight, regardless of sex and age. I remember a couple spats as a 3-6th grader for myself and others at school.

To say, "It's not normal," I ask what that's based on, as it seems completely normal for kids of all races and backgrounds?

There are way too many young people who think it is okay to fight. Parents (and schools) need to impress on children how to use their communication skills, and how to deal with anger issues in an appropriate way. Physical altercations do not solve anything, they just make both participants look ignorant!

As sad as a fight like this is, and especially sad that a girl died, I do not think fights like these are anything new. 1 min fights, pre planned for the end of the day, were common place about 24 years ago when I was 11 in 1988.

As I said before I don't think the fight was the reason she went comatose and died. I think an autopsie might show an aneurysm or something like that that was pre-existing. A blow from an 11 year old girl is not going to cause the trauma that would kill a girl unless there was something there ready to blow, perhaps if she fell of her bike wrong someday in the future it would have happened too. I was at a wrestling tournament all day this weekend where girls were wrestling each other and there was A LOT more force on their heads than an 11 year old could ever cause, sanctioned and watched over by a ref, and there was no death by force. I think the other girl is probably traumatized for life over this, I hope she is not charged, and I hope they do a through autopsy.

It is a tragedy, but not one that is caused by any new rise in violence.

Diamond60 that is exactly the problem. The other girl won't even get a paddling since the schools aren't allowed to to that anymore. I grew up in a time too when if you broke the rules enough times or a serious one the first time you got your butt paddled, and at my house if you acted up bad enough to get paddled at school you got a spanking at home. Didn't do much rule breaking.

To the bleeders who claim that a properly administered paddling or spanking is abuse, you're nuts. The reason the schools are a jungle these days is because the inmates are running the asylum. There are no consequences for bad behavior at school and in a lot of cases none at home either.

I haven't done it yet, but I'll just bet if you looked at the crime rate for kids under 18 from the '50s to today you will see an increase starting in the mid to late 70s and growing as the stay at home Mom became a thing of the past. I have no problem with a woman having a career, but it seems that she must decide between having a career or having kids since when trying to do both they both suffer. IMO it is better to live in a more affordable house and drive a more affordable car and raise quality kids than to have both parents working to live in an overpriced community for the sake of the fancy address and driving two overpriced cars both parents have to work like dogs to afford while the kids are basically raised by daycare and teachers rather than the very beneficial influence of a pair of loving, caring parents who have some time to spend with their kids. Many Dads that travel a lot in their jobs come home one day and their kids are almost grown and they hardly know them. I drove a truck over the road, was gone three weeks and home three days, and when my Son was born I decided I was not going to come home one day and hear my Son ask his Mama, "Who is that man ?" So I quit driving over the road and stayed in town so I could be home every night, took a cut in pay to boot, but came out richer in the end because I was there for my kids and got to watch and guide them growing up.

Teresa Sickels, you and some others are just rationalizing. Probably because of being in denial.

Let's get down to facts. Murder is murder. In this case, it would not be first-degree murder. I am of the opinion, that since these are children, then the adults associated to these children are just as much at fault. Not too ironically, I know you will contest the adult's culpability. Too bad, your type of rationalization, common in these times, is hurting a lot of people.

And you and some others, need to learn a medical fact. That is, that a broken nose can kill. Now I am tired of typing, and you will have to do a search to find out how.

Once, girls were expected to be lady-like, well mannered, etc., as women were regarded as examples of, or "keepers" of civility, which society benefited from. Boys were expected to be well mannered too, though their learning to "take care of themselves" was seen as a positive thing by many. I remember my own father showing me a move or two, after I was repeatedly, physically picked on by a classmate. I'm all for equality of the sexes, but that has resulted - in part - with some girls and women feeling free to be just as stupid, rude, violent, and obscenity oriented as are some boys and men.

How? - Kids have fought after school for centuries, and the boys have usually stood back and watched, unfortunately, or instigated or encouraged the fight in addition to stopping others when they wanted to stop it. The boys should be held responsible for her death if anything.

Good idea Rusty- blame some kid that wasn't even in the fight. Ruin their life so that they might serve as an example to the rest. Hell. if they doused these boys with gasoline and lit them on fire no kid would ever get in any kind of fight ever again. We can only hope that at some point you'll be in charge, we need this kind of common sense in the world.

The boys should be held responsible for her death if anything.

How should anyone be held responsible for this girls death, We do not even know what caused her death, There is no indication that there was even any significant physical contact to have caused her death. Even if the fight was a contributing factor I still do not see how the boys who were observers are responsible, The 2 girls were mutual combatants, The agreed to fight, They met at a prearranged time and location and they fought, The responsibility for this girls death falls with the girl herself, It is very sad that she is dead but to think someone else is responsible is wrong.

We sometimes had fights as kids but with facebook and twitter, things have gotten far more out of control with teenage image.

It's tragic.

Why blame anyone? Can't people take responsibility for their own actions anymore? Of course, the Mom will sue the school because of $$$$$$$$$$.

I was in grade school in the 60s and in high school in the late-70s. Girls and boys fought day in and day out, so this is really nothing new. As to the reason for the fight being about a boy, nothing new there either. There were bully(s) when I was a kid in school, and there are bully(s) today. From the scant details given in the article, it sounds like the little girl sustained a concussion and, perhaps, the bloody nose was more than just a bloody nose. Rest in sweet peace, Child Of God, and may your parents find comfort and peace though they will likely never understand your way too early departure.

RustyFrame,

"How? - Kids have fought after school for centuries"

According to the article police spokeswoman, Nancy Pratt, said she rarely hears of fights among 11 year olds and especially not among girls.

Because it's not reported to the police duh! Kids fight, it's human nature.

@Mickey-1983943

>According to the article police spokeswoman, Nancy Pratt, said she rarely hears of fights among 11 year >olds and especially not among girls.

I think you are living under a rock with this statement. There are punch ups all the time. The Coppers just never hear about it.

According to the article police spokeswoman, Nancy Pratt, said she rarely hears of fights among 11 year olds and especially not among girls.

OMG, seriously? How naive can a person be? Your head is deeper in the sand than the person being quoted.

I agree with the post above that mentioned the fighting day in and day out. I grew up in the 70's and 80's. While girl fights were not every day, they were common. As a guy, we might 'stand by' and let the girl-fight go on for 10 seconds, but as soon as the fight began to swing one way or the other - with someone clearly getting the best of the other - we would jump in & break it up.

As a grown up, I now see how wrong it was to engage in this type of behavior. But growing up in my area, fighting was part of life. And the worst thing you could do was to run away!

That's right Rusty. Blame the boys since the girls planned the fight over a boy. We wouldn't want to have people be responsible for their own actions. The girls planned the fight during the day and had plenty of time to reconsider - so it had to be somebody else's fault.

concernedone: There is a song with a line in it " ...you have to know when to walk away and when to run". With your logic that "....the worst thing you could do was to run away!" I suppose the solution to your way of life is exactly what happened....she is now deceased and will not have to make that choice ever again. Fighting is no solution. No one here in these blogs is bright enough to know what happened. A direct hit on the nose can drive right into the brain which is probably what happend. You don't die right away but die you do shortly thereafter. Hopefully, SOMEONE will figure out that your philosophy in life is DEFINTELY not advisable.

Agreed. One of the things that marks a child is a lack of realizing consequences. As such fights happen all the time. When I was in school (especially elementary) I'm pretty sure I was in one about every other day. When you're young its mostly just hurt feelings as neither party is really all that physically capable of truly hurting each other. When you get older you realize 99.99% of the time it just isn't worth it.

For these little girls I feel pretty sure that no one is really "at fault" the young girl likely had an already existing physical anomaly that was on the cusp of triggering. The physical stress of the fight probably triggered it.

Very well said "who ate my soup". Typical response these days, some one other than the people directly at fault are the problems.

Mickey, did you go to school? There are fights in every school when kids are involved. Most of them are over before any of the teachers even knew they happened. Hopefully we'll find out that this little girls tragic death was not due to the fight, so the other 11 year old doesn't live with the guilt of this for the rest of her life. Way too young to have to deal with that. Sad story for everyone involved.

Diana- I grew-up in a poor, rural area. Fighting was a way of life. If you didn't fight, you'd really get your butt stomped. People at least respected a person who was willing to throw down. Maybe where you grew-up was more civilized than my neighborhood, but let me ask you this. When it hits the fan, like it always does, who do you want fighting for you? A bookworm or an ex bully. Here in America fighting is encouraged whether you want to admit it or not. This is land of the free because of the brave, not in spite of them.

Dianne - Just to be clear...

I suppose the solution to your way of life is exactly what happened.

This was not MY solution to my "WAY" of life... We are products of our environment. As a child, in my town / county / state (whatever), fighting was as normal as going to the dentist... It happened - in my CHILDHOOD. I didn't ask for it! Heck, I'm sure I lost more fights than I won. Who really wants to get their butt kicked? Not me. But that was the way it was back then.

Read the ending portion of my comment 2.12. As a child, I thought as a child. But now I'm a man & see things through the eyes of a man.

it doesn't matter where you live fights happen if you were bused to &from school then not as much but this is just a freak death not a crime you can't tell kids its wrong to fight then cheer as you send soldiers of to war besides ten times more kids die in sports than in fist fights instead of telling your kids its wrong tell them the rules don't kick'em when their down, no weapons, show Mercy ,and try to avoid fights because they cause hard feelings that can last for years

You al are missing the point. It doesn't matter if kids have been fighting for centuries. This fight ended in a death and those involved are responsible. That's why people shouldn't fight-period. If you live in a city or somewhere rough you know that ordinary fights get people killed all the time. Kids need to learn that lesson. One well placed punch can kill a grown man, let alone a little girl.

Stop trying to make excuses. If the fight caused her death then the girl that hit her is responsible (and her parents). Again, 11-year-olds know the difference between right and wrong. Like it or not, the other little girl is a killer if it is proven that the other girls death was caused by her punches.

Eleven years old is still a bit young to 'go with' or let alone....fight over boys! Playing with dolls still would usually happen at this age right? It's not such a surprise though, with violence and wars, etc. being the normal cultural scheme of things... Just look at the new 7-inch 'hooker' heels perversely marketed as fad-fashion to teens and women. These shoes can only be tolerated by celebs who first get snapped by Pavarozzi, then get their butts into cars or limos! So the pained looks that sometime plague females...not 'bright' enough to NOT risk falling, ruining their feet, back, and general stature...are only a case of sore feet! Smh

I feel really bad for this girl and her family and everyone else involved. Everyone is making such a big deal about this fight and the coroner hasn't released a COD. Fights have been going on forever. Yes it could have played a role or even caused her death, but it also might not have. Too many people are jumping to conclusions and don't know all the facts. The only reason that this fight is even in the news is because this little girl tragically lost her life too young. If it were not for that fact it wouldn't be all over the place unless it was in a youtube video and no one but the people that witnessed it and the teacher that did nothing about it would know about it. It is a very sad story and before all of you that want to blame the other girl, or even the boys you need to wait til the facts come out. I'm sure they are all having a hard enough time and maybe even blamng themselves and at that age they are not emotionally mature enough to deal with their own feelings let alone taking on the responsibility of your negative thoughts as well. I hope that the fight was not the cause of her death and that the family and friends may find some comfort somehow. R.I.P. Joanna

My word, people! Do you even remember what you and your peers were like when you were in school? Bullies happened. Fights happened. Sexual harassment happened. "Girls shouldn't be interested in boys when they are 11", "religon or lack of religon is the problem", "they were in a bad, gang-ridden area", "they should know better because fighting can kill"... Come On! They are kids. How many fights happen and how many kids actually die from them. I don't know, but I'd bet not very many. Usually they break up before any real damage occurs. I agree with someone that posted that there was probably already an underlying issue. That, or a blow that unfortunately landed the wrong way. Or, maybe they aren't related at all. Everyone is assuming something that hasn't been confirmed yet. Speculation. Guilty until proven innocent.

I think a blow landed the wrong way, maybe damaging the brain or something. If that is so, I feel sorry for the girl who gave the blow, because her - - - is going to be fried. Definitely going to have to do community service or something, might even be locked up in juvi for a while. I don't think the parents should be blamed, and not the teacher. The teachers have little to no medical training, so they don't know what to do in cases like this where something goes terribley wrong. The parents didn't even know about the fight until it was over. They are not mind readers. I do think the girl, if she killed the other little girl, should have a consequence, though.

Bleeding from the nose, then vomiting, then becoming unconsciousness,then respiratory and cardiac arrest-that's classic intracranial bleed symptoms. Sounds very much like the blow to the head killed her.

It's hard to imagine how a 11-year-old girl could inflict such a serious injury on someone her age without weapons, in less than a minute. Let's not forget that some people (especially UFC fighters) get hit in the head regularly and nobody's gotten anything life-threatening without a clear cause (e.g. being knocked out).

spartan it isn't that difficult. A hit to the nose or chin can drive the brain onto the rather jagged sinus are and cause deadly results. It really doesn't take that much force or intent... especially if there is an underlying condition.

Maggie..."And I can't even say what I think about the boys who got their jollies from watching a couple of pre-pubescent girls fighting."

I didn't read anything about boys watching the fight. Do you have a link to another story giving those details? Story said Stephanie and Maggie were spectators. Any words for those girls getting "their jollies".

Spartan-501 Not true, many have perished. Approximately 500 boxers have died in the ring or as a result of boxing since the Marquis of Queensberry Rules were introduced in 1884.

I do agree it would seem to be extremely rare for this to happen to such a young child especially when the other opponent was just as young.

hs321 Perhaps you need to reread the article.

hs321....Go back and read the next to the last paragraph.

"Martinez and other friends said they tried to stop the fight, but were held back by boys who were watching and wanted it to continue.."

I think that about sums it up.

hs321 - "Martinez and other friends said they tried to stop the fight, but were held back by boys who were watching and wanted it to continue."

@hs -

The friend watching the fight said she and another girl tried to stop it but "were held back by some boys watching it who wanted the fight to continue."

You can read the story to find the statement.

Wikipedia records 41 deaths due to injuries in the boxing ring, 40 men, and 1 woman. These deaths happened with gloves on, and with medical staff standing by.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Deaths_due_to_injuries_sustained_in_boxing

So your comparing an 11 year old girl with an adult boxer. Really? I'll just wait for the coroner's report.

OK guys I missed that part. I stand corrected.

Wikipedia is of absolutely no authority anymore than reading tea leaves is. ANYONE can (and often do) post blatantly incorrect opinion as fact. Try looking up respectable sources starting with Brittannica and improving from there.

Everyone lies when defending their actions.

I doubt the boys were holding anyone back. If her friends didn't want the fight to happen, they would have stopped her from attending in the first place.

I agree kcstrawberryblonde. And it doesn't necessarily require a real hard hit to cause inter cranial bleeding or a clot. One well placed hit even though not a hard blow to a sensitive area such as the temple, can cause concussion and everything you informed us about. My condolences to this family. So sad no matter how it got started.

If the other girl landed a punch on the nose just right, she could have broken the girls nose; noses aren't that hard to break. There could have been a jaggedy bit of bone that went into this poor kid's brain and caused bleeding and eventually death. It would be a freak occurrence, but possible.

I really hope they don't charge the other girl. She's just a kid who did a dumb thing that turned out to have really unlikely tragic consequences. She does need counseling for better ways to solve problems than with violence, though.

When I was 11, I was 5'7". Just because her age is a kid, doesn't mean that her punch was wimpy. While boys don't hit puberty, get taller and stronger until their teens, does not mean that girls are the same way. In 5th grade I passed my hand-me-down clothes to my teacher. For all we know we are talking about "little girls" who aren't really very little. There is just not enough in this article to be able to tell what really happened.

The punch doesn't need to be hard. Why, it doesn't need to be a punch at all. If someone drives their open hand out and up into someone's nose the right way in a deliberate manner it can make the sinuses go up into the brain and kill his/her opponent.

Elfangel,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4530930.stm

http://jop.ascopubs.org/site/er/JOP000209.pdf

http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/reports/abstracts/TR2007-606/

http://firstmonday.org/htbin/cgiwrap/bin/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/1413/1331

Falconer 33,

I was not comparing an 11 year old girl to an adult boxer. I was trying to make a point that fistfights are dangerous, they can and do result in deaths even when precautions (like for a boxer) are taken.

If she got hit in the nose, she could have gotten a broken nose that got pushed up into her brain. This is sad.

Actually, pushing someones broken nose up in to their brain, causing death is a myth.

To start with the nose is mostly made of soft cartilage, there is a bridge of bone between the eye sockets, this is the nasal bone. The nasal bone is attached to both cheek bones and the frontal bone of the cranium.

Now assuming a blow could detach the nasal bone from both cheek bones and be driven upward at the right angle, where would it go? The nasal bone would have to penetrate the hard frontal bone of the cranium pass through the frontal sinuses and penetrate more bone in order to damage the brain. It's questionable whether the nasal bone has the length to reach the brain let alone the strength to penetrate the skull.

Add to this that there isn't one medically documented case of a nasal bone being driven into the brain by a blow from a person's hand. If this was likely or even possible there would have been a lot of dead boxers over the centuries instead of a lot of boxers with busted noses.

It's just a myth!

no she'll have a rep as the bad a** who can kill with one punch even though it was just a freak thing

Zuksam - I'd be scared as hell to be the guy she was fighting over. I know that I'd probably have to go out with her, or she'd take me out, too. Yep, I'm demonizing the unintentional killer, but this story is so weird!

right, one would hope she wouldnt use this as some sick bragging right.

Colleen-2656868:

"don't you think the other girl will be tormented by this for the rest of her life?"

Who is going to do that? Her friends? Other kids at school? No way, she punched a girl and the girl is dead. What other kid is going to even say boo to her?

23 years ago, when I was a 6 yr old girl, I got in a fight with a boy in my class who died a week later in an unrelated accident (drowned). I still think about that kid. A guilty conscience will probably plague me for the rest of my life and his death was not even related to our fight.

By tormented, if it turns out that the punch in the nose did indeed cause death, then the girl who punched her will live with that for the rest of her life.

Ambrosia:

I had a boy in middle school and high school that used to torment me, and loved to be cruel to me. I finally blew up at him towards the end of my senior year, and shoved him. Those were the last words we ever spoke to each other, and right after high school, he got into a car accident and died. Even though I wasn't the instigator, I still think about him from time to time, and feel bad that those words were the last he ever heard from me.

Ambrosia & Magnolia- been there done that, I had a boy who used to torment me mercilessly too, one day I lost my cool and screamed, I hate you I hope you die (I never touched him though) two days later he was killed in a car accident, 20+ years later I still feel guilty and have never said those words to anyone ever again.

In the 6th grade I had a girl beat the living crap out of me over a boy, the boy was my best friend we had no romantic interest in each other, it's funny him and I are in our 30s now and we're still friends, we have no idea whatever happened to her.

Regardless if the little girl is found at fault or not she's going to remember this forever, hard lesson to learn, my sympathies to both families.

Don't bet any money on the girl nor the boys egging it on having one iota of remorse. While my older niece wouldn't hurt a bug (literally) her 14 year old sister doesn't care who gets hurt or how bad as long as she gets what she wants. My parents and I were around to raise my elder niece until she was 13 but the younger one was kept away fromm us by her narcisistic mother born of an alcoholic pill popper.

The answers aren't simple but they DO include everyone being involved. Part of that is to quit the bulls**t excuse parroted in 95% of these posts. 'It's human nature.' 'It's always happened' 'It's a rite of passage" Like being abused in every way possible for not projecting a Hulk Hogan image and be seen, factually or not, as having been made by nature a homosexual?

Girls are sexually maturing earlier these days and any of us who survived those hormonic floods know that these raging hormones MUST be monitored by the adults in our young people's lives.

I would say it's because of bad parenting, but more than anything I blame the fact that today both parents need to work, so who has the time to do proper parenting? Divorce and single parents raising kids is also to blame. Latch-key kids who have to take care of themselves. If the economy and jobs were such that someone could actually have the time and energy to actually be a parent, I think that would go a long way to improving life for kids, and society.

You were doing so well, and then you went and made excuses for bad parenting. My husband and I divorced two years ago. My two kids and I moved to a new town. I single parent most of the time. My daughter still behaves appropriately and makes straight A's.. my son does extremely well also. They were not affected by the divorce or single-parenting or by the fact that my husband and I both had full-time jobs when we were married. We had rules in the house. If they were broken, there was and still is discipline to be handed out. Cell phones are taken away; driving privileges are banned; dates are cancelled; etc.... We are NOT their friends.

The truth is that parenting is EXHAUSTING. It IS hard work. But there is NO excuse for being a lazy parent. I don't care if you work full-time, divorced, etc. You can't WISH that your kids will grow up knowing right from wrong on their own. You can NOT expect teachers to raise your kids for you. If you CHOOSE to have children, you OWE it to your kids and everyone else to teach them right from wrong and discipline them when they need it.

I think all children who kill except the totally pschycotic ones will be scarred for life. Psychosis makes it hard to care sometimes. From what little I can gather from such a horribley written article, the girl who punched the other girl that died was not psychotic.

Yes!!! Its the Illegals and Teachers fault. Teachers are absent from kinds lives after school, they have papers to grade and set up next days lecture. By your logic your kids are not safe in any American school. Let me tell you who is to blame. It peer pressure. You meant to tell me two girls just decided to fight one day over a boy as a whole crowd gathered around them? Its an orchestrated fight, who are the culprits? Well the orchestrators. Everyone present at that fight are to blame even those who tried to stop it because they did not try to reach for an adult, and knowing 11 year old girls these days they probably had cell phones to call 911, and don't give that they are too young and stupid to call 911. Even if the girl did not die from this fight, they are still to be blamed to put her through this type of thing before her death.

@Freedom

I wonder if you would have sent your kids to Columbine in Colorado in April 1999 or does that place have too much illegals and bad teachers?

Freedom, this is not an issue about illegals or the right or left. It is about kids who had a fight over a boy. I went to school in an upper class suburban neighborhood on Long Island in NY where there were only white middle and upper middle class families. No illegals, no inter-racial tensions no "rich" kids or really poor kids. Kids would fight over a dropped nickel or any other stupid reason kids fight for. I clearly remember many disputes cleared up "at the gate at 3 o'clock. This is a tragedy and nothing more. Teachers should have generally been more attentive but the facts are not in.

I grew up in NY in the 80s and 90s. The school I went to had a modest illegal immigrant population. The most violent kids I experiened were white kids. The black and latino kids were actually very cool to me. It was the Italians, Albanians and Irish kids that you had to watch out for. Don't get me wrong, you didn't want to wander into the wrong ethnic zip code, but as far as in school, the "illegals" were not problems at all.

Why in the world would teachers monitor after they left school? Are they supposed to follow them home, too?

You heard correctly.

So when you do go to sleep, is it fatigue or concussion - whether it's ten minutes or ten hours?

I have had a couple of concussions. I believe someone was supposed to wake me once an hour or so the first night.

Heck, they might have been fighting over a TEACHER as the teachers in CA like to date children!

I so agree, these are two little girls 11 yrs old dont need to be fighting over a boy smh!!!

AKRandy, your comment is offensive and completely out of line!

I agree, this is nothing new and not that big a deal as far as the fighting. In fact, it's pretty typical in our suburb with great teachers and nice kids - during the middle school years. Girls are the worst, or so my kids tell me. I think she just had something wrong in her head, weakness in a blood vessel. Could have been triggered by a fall just as easily, and probably was only a matter of time. I'm sure the autopsy will shed some light. I do feel sorry for the other girl, certainly. She didn't mean anything. For all anyone knows, the one who died may have been the one more at fault - though they are just kids, no one is perfect. A sad situation for all, certainly.

Most kids I know have been taught to use the palm of their hand and drive upwards from under the nose which drives the broken bones into the brain and kills. Kids don't fight like they used to.

Houdini died of "peritonitis" ( a ruptured appendix). The result of someone who hit him hard in the stomach several times. Getting hit can be fatal.

How about HOLLYWOOD??????

Blaming "society" is a cop-out. The responsibility is on the parents. Children, for the most part, really do live as their parents live, the rare "bad seed" notwithstanding.

To which parts of "society" do you allow your children to be exposed? Do you watch "reality" tv shows in which ranting and raving are celebrated? If you let your kids watch "Bad Girls Club" don't be surprised when they act like ignorant little skanks.

Please, let's not make judgments about culture, race, and bad parenting. Kids fight, and they've been doing it forever. I was in school during the mid 60s and 70s in a middle/upper middle class, mostly white suburb in northern CA. After-school fights were no big deal. They involved a few fists flying, an occasional bloody nose, then the kids were back to hanging out together the next day. This was obviously a freak accident. The girl could've died during recess from a softball or kickball to the face. If fights are rarer nowadays, it's because kids aren't allowed to fight their own battles, figuratively or literally. They run home to mommy, then the police and social services get involved, then the kids are forced into counseling or anger management classes. They end up thinking something is seriously wrong with them, when in most cases there isn't. By junior high or freshman year at the latest, kids have outgrown physical fights, and they've learned how to settle conflicts more maturely. But if mommy always goes to bat for them, they'll never learn to resolve problems on their own.

This would not have happened if the family had stayed in Mexico.

I am wondering the same thing . It takes just one hard blow to the head or to the chest or to any other major body part that houses a major organ and your as good as gone . I feel sorry for her family . But she is very young . And all over a boy ! it's not worth it . I would bet you if this girl were still alive and 10 - 12 years from now , she wouldn't even remember his name . SAD . RIP !

It doesn't matter if it was the underlying condition. If the punch triggered it then that person can be held responsible. Vosburg v. Putney. It's the thin-skull, or egg-shell skull, rule. But the other girl likely won't be charged or sued civilly. This is very clear invitation to fight.

Of course, there's more to this than I know so that's just what it looks like from a short news article.

EndGame69, they should be punished but not held responsible?! Pick a position! And brush up on actual facts regarding head injuries. The dead child absolutely could have died as a direct result of the blows, without any underlying conditions present. What, in your opinion, should happen to little Miss Bad-A$$? Killer of the week award?

Tragic. Here we have an incident that most of us have witnessed in our lifetimes. Arguments between school children or adolescents happen on a "daily' basis, for various reasons and some of these conflicts escalate into physical confrontations. It happens all the time. I am not exactly sure of the full facts of the investigation but, two 11 year old girls "fighting" over a boy, doesn't seem like the "crime of the century" to me. I feel very sad for the family of the deceased and hope they can persevere through this most difficult time in their lives.
I also hope the "other" girl begins immediate counseling for her part in this tragedy. She is going to be very confused and emotionally unstable. She will most probably need years of support and therapy to help her try to understand her role in this. I do not advocate violence of any sort, and believe, neither girl actually intended to "end the life" of the other, nor can I assign "blame" to an 11 year old "child." Neither will I "present" a "Killer of the Week" award. VERY TACKY (machspeeddemon)!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm not the one petting the head of the dear little darling, darlin'. When you kill someone, you are a killer.

If her parents had given her 11 years of support and guidance, she wouldn't "most probably need years of support and therapy". (Yeah, THAT'S gonna happen. Unrealistic much?)

Mighty restrained of you not to award her for her actions; now if you could learn to leave the blame where it belongs. While you're at it, admit you have absolutely no clue what either girl intended. For all you know, they were shouting that they'd kill each other.

Yeah, that girl needs to be held responsible, and all the guys that were there holding the people back from stopping it put all their asses in jail, NO MERCY for any of them they all are guilty

Did'ja also notice that none of the last names in that family match, and no father around to comment (was probably at least 2)? Take a guess what country this "youth culture" is coming from, the culture where they like to start 'em young on breedin' and fightin'?