me, too. It's sad that this is still happening.

Until parents start parenting again events like this will never stop happening.

Maybe we are at a point where metal detectors at schools entrances is necessary. That is a hard fact to swallow, but it appears bringing a gun and/or knife to school is way to common.

Just think of the NUMEROUS guns/knives in children's backpacks all over the country today. A few hundred guns and a few thousand knives that we WON'T even hear about.

ps....Agree with Mike. Parents need to get in the game.

You hit the nail right on the head, Mike-- amen.

Raider-Where the hell have you been??? Metal detectors are already in place in many schools across the country.

Back in the stone age we didn't have backpacks. We carried our books to school, made our own book covers, etc. Different time? Yes, and we weren't hampered with all of the "rights" that students expect today. Also sharing much of the blame is lazy parenting. Parents are concerned with themselves and financial achievement more than their families. They measure success with dollar signs, ignoring all else.

@Mike 757...I think that should be until parents are allowed to parent again, given some of the laws we have to protect the children and the over zealous actions of authorities in enforcing them. In some areas, students have even been told by people in authority at there school or civic organization that if their parents ever say or do anything they don't like to tell their teacher or organization leaders and they will see to it that the parents are punished..No wonder kids act the way they do.

Raider-Where the hell have you been??? Metal detectors are already in place in many schools across the country.

@Whocares....easy there fireball. You may want to do a quick check on your statement. See below...it comes from the National School SAfety & security srvs. Next time you may want to check yourself before going off half cocked.

The majority of schools in the United States do NOT use metal detectors on a day-to-day basis. While there are no credible statistics on the exact number of schools using metal detectors, stationary metal detectors used on a daily basis are typically limited to large urban school districts with a chronic history of weapons-related offenses. U.S. schools regularly using stationary metal detectors on a day-to-day basis are the exception, not the rule.

Pangulin 48,

Parents can control that situation easily enough. My son got in my face at an early age and threatened to call family services after being disciplined. I handed him the phone and instructed him to call and then pack his bags because he would not be coming back to my house. He straightened up. Great kid, doing wonderful in life now.

Boomer-I agree with one thing-lazy parenting, parents need to be more involved in their children's lives and teach them morals and respect, and the nutty psychologist need to stay out of how parents discipline their children-seems to me like years ago when children got spankings and were punished for the wrong they did, society was a better place-children have no respect for anyone today and that comes from the up-bringing they are getting.

On the single-parent issue, you are very wrong on that. What facts do you have that children from single-parent homes are criminals? Some people become single parents-not by choice, and some do-and it does not mean that they are raising their children to be criminals. You say this because of these idiot psychologist say so. I find offense in your comment about single parenting because I am a single parent and I am not raising my child to be a criminal-far from it. Do you think that all children from 2 parent homes turn out to be angels-far from it!

Boomer............................mega ditto's!!

Coastal Exchange,

You do not have a clue - as expected. I have no problem with people making poor decisions, only with their denials of it when it hits them in the face. Americans have every right to be ignorant and I will defend your demonstration of that right. Also, I agree that people shouldn't take guns to school, but simply locking them up and not looking at the root of the problem fixes nothing.

Have a nice day.

Say what you like parenting is the key to these problems whether single or bothe parents they all need to step up and be responsible for what and how their children act.

Kanic,

No, I did not say that all children of single parents are criminals. Far from it. However, being a single parent you know that it is tough and many are not up to it. Granted some have no choice, but many do. Fact is, the odds are against the single parent just because of the society we live in. How many times have you been simply exhaused from the demands of your day and night and wished it weren't so? Too many succumb to those pressures and take the easy way. I commend you in your struggles and wish you and yours great happiness in life.

If you could choose any Ohio town to live in and any public school system to send your children, Chardon, Ohio would be a top choice. The biggest school problem this town deals with is the unusual number of snow days that the students have to make up every year.

This is not a school that usually has to deal with parents who are not closely involved in raising well behaved children. However, this is a school that has an emergency plan in place and regularly performs lockdown drills.

Right now the treatment of the injured (possibly 4 students) and safe evacuation of the school is top priority. It is controlled chaos right now. The practice drills have proven effective. A suspect is in custody.

Single parenting blame is just not true. Its like blaming the lights in the school for making it brighter to shoot.

Good parenting IS an issue. Some single parents with multiple kids are better than two parents with one. You'd have to show me some repeated, CREDIBLE (not Faux or Hufferington post article) research to prove otherwise. I think its a pretty obvious statement. AND by the way, putting blame on the parents DOES NOT absolve everyone else of the issue.

Looking at the cause of the problem also IS the right thing to do. What happens when the parents don't do their job? You going to let your own kid get hurt and say, "Well, I did my job, they didn't do theirs?" Obviously not, well, unless you are exactly one of those bad parents.

One suggestion: If you're a parent with firearms lock them up along with ammo..... It may not stop every shooting but it's a good start. Trigger locks, safes etc.!

Too many people in this country crazy as hell. The kids are mimicking their elders quite well.

@fhowardc,

Thanks for your concern.

To answer: 4 students shot, 3 have been transported to Cleveland Metro General in critical condition, 1 has been taken to Hillcrest Hospital in Mayfield Heights in stable condition if I heard correctly.

Just reported on the news (CH3) that the shooter is a student and known for being "difficult"

@mike757 and many others

This is "Chardon" Ohio. A rather wealthy area with some of the better schools in Ohio. The parents for the most are not only "Very" involved with their children's lives at times (if its possible) they seem to be to involved. I know a number of them and they are good parents. They quickly filled the parking lots and streets hoping to get to their children.

I'm guessing that you either are referring to the U.S. in general or just are not familiar with the area.

It seems to be a freak situation. When the young fella (15)gets home from Maple Elementary (where they have been taken to be picked up) I'm sure that he will fill me in.

No Chardon does not have metal detectors nor should they. Though I'm pretty certain that they will soon.

To add to Maggieadela, my granddaugher, 2 nephews and a niece go to Chardon High. The way the school and law inforcement have handled the situation has been exemplary.

Boomer-I do agree with you that a lot of single parents don't parent very well, but I also do not feel sorry for them and the excuses they make. I don't find single parenting to be demanding or exhausting. I love my child and would give for my life for him. Yes, a lot of single parents use it as excuse not to raise their children, but so do married parents. I hear so many married people say horrible things about having to be parents. What people don't realize is that when you become a parent single or not-your life is not yours anymore and if you really love your child that child comes first to you-too many parents want to party and live like they don't have kids-let the kids raise themselves. I work 8 hours a day from home, I homeschool my child, and I also participate in scouting activities, sports, make sure he goes to church, etc., with him. Never once have I complained about being exhausted or complained about being a single parent. I love my child and I abolutely love homeschooling him and participating in his life. I find it to be fun and exciting. I look at it as they are only little for a short time and I am going to enjoy every moment that I can with him. I have to say that any parent that can homeschool their child is the greatest gift they can give their child-it is aboslutely the most awesome journey that you can go through with your child. I don't feel sorry for these parents who say it is so hard-it's only as hard as they make it to be. My view is that when you have a child it is your responsibility to guide that child in the right way so that they can grow up to be good, productive, moral people. I am very proud to say that my child is being raised to be respectful, he's not dragging the streets and will turn out to be an awesome human being and I am proud of myself for being the parent that he needs.

I'm a boomer, too, and I am a single parent. (Sounds like an AA meeting, doesn't it.) Both of my kids have grown to be fine adults, as well as community leaders. My grandchildren do exceptionally well, and my daughter is also a single parent. Single parenting is not the problem--poor parenting is!

I have no idea what caused this incident in Chardon. It is extremely sad. It could have been anything from drugs to bullying to gangs. I hope all recover.

All we know right now as fact is very little but I see that many posters are already making assumptions based only on their need to push a personal agenda.. No reports of any deaths, a possible suspect in custody with MAYBE 1 accomplice yet to be determined. I'll wait for more information before making any opinions/judgements. My hope is that no one was seriously injured.

AND to Coastal Exchange:

I like you.....you remind me of when I was young and stupid! I wondered how many postings it would take before some idiot turned to name calling, abuse and labelling......not long, yours was the first. Congratulations!

And Boomer: Well said!

@Darren UK wrote ""Why does anyone need a gun?""

Hunting.

I have relatives and co-workers who are avid hunters. They supplement their food supply from hunting. Venison stew is pretty good if you've never tried it.

There are also Winter Olympic events that involve X-country skiing & target shooting.

People who shoot people are criminals. That doesn't mean law abiding hunters (or olympians) should lose their firearms.

@onamericasside,

What I stated was just reported by the local FBI and a Geauga Sheriff's Dept. Deputy.

Also texts received from a student that is hopefully going to be home soon.

Turn on WKYC Channel 3 (NBC) they as well as the other local stations have live crews on sight or call a student that you know or a friend that lives next door to the school or try Saint Mary's across the street from the Middle School

Nothing wrong with making money, getting a good job - moving your kids to a better school... The probelm is, you bring the same rotten kids you raised to the new school.

You can't run away from yourself. the only difference is - now the weak willed, victims of bullies from the old school start to fill the vacuum. The Bullied get guns and become the bullies...

And the cycle continues, accelerates as the body count rises. Old song said it best: Teach your children well

~ CSNY

You who are on the road
Must have a code that you can live by
And so become yourself
Because the past is just a good bye.

Teach your children well,
Their father's hell did slowly go by,
And feed them on your dreams
The one they picked, the one you'll know by.

Don't you ever ask them why, if they told you, you would cry,
So just look at them and sigh and know they love you.

Really? In my house we have two meals a day as a family. I know everyone cannot do that, but I feel closer to my child because I can do it. It is not a good idea for the school to replace home.

This is "Chardon" Ohio. A rather wealthy area with some of the better schools in Ohio. The parents for the most are not only "Very" involved with their children's lives at times (if its possible) they seem to be to involved. I know a number of them and they are good parents. They quickly filled the parking lots and streets hoping to get to their children.

I am sure this kid showed no signs of being disturbed that his "very involved" parents could have picked up on. And the parents wealth and school district have nothing to do with anything...bad parenting stretches across all walks of life.

Don't take offense, you are probably a good parent, but don't assume you know what goes on in other people's homes unless you live with them.

It's interesting how everyone jumps on Boomer because he states that statistically there are higher rates of criminal activity that have a direct correlation to single parent families. A quick Google search will confirm that this is true as well as higher levels of suicide, drug use, promiscuity, aggression, poor school performance, etc. There are many, many studies to prove this theory.

Just because there is a higher probability that a child from a single parent home will have these issues does not mean that it will happen to YOUR child. Why must everyone assume that Boomer is personally attacking you and your parenting skills?

Jeez.....

Boomer, you couldn't be more wrong about single parents. I agree with Kanic; single parenting has it's trials, but no more so than couple parenting. Some of us are more than happy to make sacrifices for the sake of our children and are mindful of what we teach them, at times more so than dual-parent households. Becoming single isn't always a choice or the result of making bad choices either, so there's no need to villainize us.

And Episcopalian, boomer is attacking all single parents as a group, which means he's attacking the individuals within that group. He's trying to make us all look the same, which we're not.

An episocopalian-Maybe because it is offensive to single parents who are good parents-it is stereotyping single parents are bad parents and their children grow up badly. This really should not be said at all because kids that come from 2 parent homes turn out to be the same way too-in fact some of them are even worse because they are so spoiled rotten that if they can't have their way or have what they want they kill or commit suicide. It is society and it's poor parenting that have cause the problems with the kids of today and it is wrong to say that single parent children are worse than others-because it simply is not true-it happens on both sides-and lately it seems like single parents are being attacked everytime something happens and I am for one am getting tired of the single parent being blamed foe everything. This kid that shot these other kids today-do we know if he comes from a single parent home or not-and if he does or if he doesn't-what of it-either way parents single or not need to be involved in their childrens lives and be better parents. I mean really, I just see comments about single parents being to blame, but I never see any comments blaming 2 parent children-it all comes out against single parents. Whether or not you are single or not-you are still a parent and it does not mean that one is better than the other

Kids can be mean and cruel.

The kid had friends but the kid was an "outcast."

I really detest mean kids. Kids that pick on others because they don't wear the right clothes or might have some kind of learning disability. Just because someone looks different does not mean that it is okay to be mean to them. This goes on all of the time and a lot of the adults look the other way "kids will be kids."

I say put them all in some kind of school uniform, be it black pants and a white shirt something basic and simple. No make up or jewelry allowed and basic hair styles. They would all look the same, so there would be no style competition at school. Fancy clothing, jewelry, hair and make up can be done on the weekends when the kid is with their parent(s).

A lot of these kids that go on a rampage are kids that have been pushed to the limit by their peers. I am not saying it is okay for them to go shoot up the school but it always seems to be the kid that is picked on doing the shooting or committing suicide. There is something most definitely wrong with this picture.

@Stacey - I don't think hunting rifles are what Darren was referring to. I'm pretty sure you can actually still get a rifle in the UK. Do your relatives hunt with handguns? If so, why? That seems terribly inefficient.

As for home protection I can't see what beats a good 12 gauge shotgun. Why does everybody need semi-automatic weapons?

Kanic,

I'm sorry that you are taking everything so personally. Neither Boomer nor I intended it to attack you directly. In fact, I did not even address my post to you as there were many people who did personally attack Boomer. I don't make up the numerous studies on single parent homes nor do I make up the concluding statistics. They are just facts. I'm sure that you are an excellent parent. Just because the statistics are higher for problems in single parent homes that does not mean that two parent homes are perfect. No one said that in any post that I read except for your implication that they were. These statistics do not say that 100% of children from single parent homes have the issues that I stated earlier - statistically they are more prone to them. In fact, primarily the difficulties that these kids face is a direct correlation to a lack of a father.

Again, facts are facts. You are not part of those statistics, and that's great, but that doesn't make them invalid or stereotyping. No, we do not know if this kid came from a single parent home and I never stated that he was. Please stop projecting your anger into my words.

The only answer is more guns! More guns! If more students had had guns, we could have had a real shoot-out! More guns!

@Mike757

RE "I am sure this kid showed no signs of being disturbed that his "very involved" parents could have picked up on"

Umm..............actually I posted "Just reported on the news (CH3) that the shooter is a student and known for being "difficult" ".

Now the 15 yr old is home safe and has told us some of what went on.

The shooter is a young male that we know (not friends and not who I thought it might be) and is being raised by his grand parents (due to problems with his parents stability).

15's Mom volunteered with his Grandma at the local elementary school's library back in the day and is very familiar with the situation.

5 Kids have been shot and sadly a young boy didn't make it (15 says head shot).

RE :"but don't assume you know what goes on in other people's homes unless you live with them."

Mike first I assume nothing. Assumptions are a great way to get seriously injured or other possibilities.

Live with them...... Or you know the situation at hand (and the difficulties that the grand parents have faced knowing their grandson's issues) at least. So much for trying to make a difference I'm sure they are feeling horrible.

Now Mike I'm sure that you know that no offense is given if it isn't received.

I'm just used to "Those Others" always "Assuming" that parents aren't involved with their kids.

"bad parenting stretches across all walks of life."

Finally something that we can agree on as the "Rich" side of "My" parents were much worse at it than the middle class blue collar "Hillbilly" side.

1 now dead.

As a Brit reading this I just can't understand why America just doesn't do what any other country would do and BAN guns. I'm sick of hearing all that "it's in the constitiution" crap. Change it! They did in the Uk and Australia after just 1 incident. Nowhere in the US constitiution does it say that the public are allowed to carry guns. It refers to an armed military. Your right to bear arms is a myth!! When is common sense going to prevail in America? Why does anyone need a gun? I've lived in 6 countries so far and have never met anyone who owns a gun. What is americans' fascination with them? What a country

Do I need to post the statistics on knife crime in the UK? Outlawing handguns in the UK did nothing to reduce crime. All it did was swap weapons.

Do I need to mention Derrick Bird who less than 2 years ago went ape-sh*t with a shotgun, killing 12 people, also in the UK?

Point being is that regardless of whatever laws are in place, when someone wants to commit a crime, they will find a way to do it. Pardon the pun, but there is no 'silver bullet' that's going to 100% prevent something like this from happening. Just a whole lot of things that CAN be done to reduce the risk and likelihood of it happening again.

Look at it this way. Prisons control the inmates to a degree that would have constitutional lawyers screaming abuse if it was applied to schools, and yet how many prisoners get shanked and/or killed each year? And that's with armed guards, segregated populations, metal detectors, and CCTV cameras.

Stull - Sorry, but being an outcast has nothing to do with this. Being a sociopath does. I was an outcast during my middle and high school years, and never once did it cross my mind to go in and shoot everyone who hassled me. Despite my "weird" wardrobe and quietness, I had a 4.0, got along great with all my teachers, participated in many extracurricular activities, and was (and still am) about the biggest pacifist you could find. Violence appalled me then, and it appalls me now.

Bad people are bad people, and putting them in different clothing is not going to change that.

@Boomer, you're blaming single-parenthood?? FYI - The "Columbine shooters" did not come from single-parent households!!

Ban the backpacks! Nothing wrong with carrying books to school. Or, just use modern tech & download all textbooks to your ipad or something - then no reason to carry a backpack. If there's not an easy way to hide it, a gun, or drugs, or whatever, it won't get into the school unnoticed. Also, kids need to be taught that if they see, hear or read about something"wrong", it's ok to bring it to the attention of someone in authority. Scream it out as loud as you can to the principal, or parent(s), everyone you can think of - bringing a gun to school, real or just a fantasy should be taken VERY seriously!

Comment collapsed by the community
As a Brit reading this I just can't understand why America just doesn't do what any other country would do and BAN guns. I'm sick of hearing all that "it's in the constitiution" crap. Change it! They did in the Uk and Australia after just 1 incident. Nowhere in the US constitiution does it say that the public are allowed to carry guns. It refers to an armed military. Your right to bear arms is a myth!! When is common sense going to prevail in America? Why does anyone need a gun? I've lived in 6 countries so far and have never met anyone who owns a gun. What is americans' fascination with them? What a country

Care to offer us an explanation of the following?

Daily Mail 27 Oct 2009:

Gun crime has almost doubled since Labour came to power as a culture of extreme gang violence has taken hold.
The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.
In some parts of the country, the number of offences has increased more than five-fold.
In eighteen police areas, gun crime at least doubled.

The Guardian 17 July 2010:

Such trends are challenged by the British Crime Survey which logged a dramatic decline in "knife-enabled woundings" in the aftermath of Lawrence's murder. In 1995, researchers recorded 84,000 cases, falling to 29,000 in 2005-06, but rising to 38,000 only two years later. Evidence of a more steady growth in stabbings was detected by a home affairs select committee investigation that found "assaults by sharp objects" rose more than 30% in the decade from 1997.

What a country!

I will attempt to keep this short. I live and work close to the area where the shooting happened. I am not going to quote each person that made a comment here but wanted to clear things up.

Chardon is 30 miles East of Cleveland----it is a suburb far enough removed that they generally don't have the same problems as Cleveland schools where you will find metal detectors. Chardon schools do not have metal detectors and, until now, probably felt they didn't have the need. It is a very small percentage of schools that have this and those that might want it probably can't even afford it.

Now lets me make this end of it short. I went to school in the 70's and 80's. I was incredibly smart, socially shy but still managed to be the class clown from time to time. My very first day of junior high school, (used to be elementary, junior high, high school), I was in a fight with one of my friends in the cafeteria. As the large German teacher made his way toward us my friend disappeared and I was left to experience my first SWATS. For those of you confused, this isn't an elite police force, it is the sound of a large wooden paddle hitting a rear-end. Capitol punishment is what it was called. They also used to send you to the principals office, suspend and expel students all the time. I had been suspended once and made several trips to the principals office. This was in the Cleveland Public School system, no suburbs for me. In the end, I turned out okay.

Capitol punishment was taken out of the hands of teachers. One very good reason for this, accidents did happen. Miss high or low and hurt legs or even worse, backs, were the only reasonable argument I ever heard for ridding this practice. Suspension is not what it used to be, they now have in school suspensions. This is for the really bad kids that still need a place to go for breakfast and lunch. Schools have become daycares.

This brings me to the parents. Single parent households, broken homes, people that never should have been parents in the first place. This is a problem all the pro lifers need to solve before allowing another unwanted fetus to make it to the world only to have the most miserable life imaginable but that's another topic. The phrase I have heard one too many times out of parents mouths---it isn't my job to teach my kids, that's what the teachers are for. This is a comment made at parent teacher conferences, when the parent actually shows up. If this is the attitude about their child's education, imagine how involved they are with anything else in their kids life.

Over the past couple of decades we let the TV, Internet and video games raise kids. 250 channels of garbage through the cable box---endless amounts of information on any topic imaginable on the Internet---kids playing video games that are far from age appropriate. All of this is happening because of a lack of parenting not for lack of tools to protect children. Parental Controls on the TV or cable box, parents either don't know, don't understand how to or just don't bother setting this up. Computers in kids bedrooms instead of in a community area of the house----there are filters that can be set that will not allow your kids to certain areas of the web. Need a very strong password for this but here the kids probably know more about the computer and Internet than the parents. Two working parents too tired to put forth the effort to fix this. What they do is add to the problem by throwing in a PS3 or Xbox 360 which also has parental controls which are actively set in my house. Trouble here is, parents purchase, give to kid---their job is complete. Don't pay attention to the games they play just let them have at it. These are one time setups for a little peace of mind.

No effort whatsoever and then we wonder why days like today happen. The most disturbing issue is how these kids get access to the guns. I'm sure they didn't purchase them directly from the black market, they aren't old enough to purchase from a store. Probably got them right out of the household gun cabinet. You know, the one that should be locked up like Fort Knox instead of a refrigerator.

Finally, my understanding is they caught two out of three kids involved. They didn't kill themselves afterward which makes this a little unique considering the end result of past shootings has left them shooters dead either by their own hand or law enforcement. Instead of distraught students this is playing out more like a look at me, look at me, scenario. Let's call it a Facebook shooting. All these kids know way to much about each other. There is no more rumor mill or grapevine. One kid posts a comment about another and it is all over the world in 30 seconds. Viral videos making people minor celebrities. Again---look at me, look at me....... Where do we go if the only reason for doing this was to become famous? It took the Kardashians so much less.

My overall point is this, times have changed. I'm no prude and I enjoy a lot of the entertainment available today but I am also age appropriate. Family Guy, Two and a Half Men and other shows like this were never aloud on commercial television and now they are on a couple hours after school lets out. Reality shows??? I always thought that aside from the news we watched TV and movies to escape reality. Just like any other type of social engineering, something goes wrong from time to time.

Cable and Satelite providers that bring you these shows, the networks that have no problem creating these shows and the advertisers who support these shows are all engineering kids----their future shoppers. The Internet is 1000% times worse than TV and I am a gamer and enjoy that hobby very much but a lot of what is available is not for kids even on the Wii.

Who am I blaming----parents and the entertainment industry as a whole. The gun manufacturer didn't have a thing to do with planting the seed so stop blaming them. Also, stop blaming one particular facet of entertainment. The entire industry needs to be overhauled because the only thing that is stopped anymore is the showing of certain naked bodyparts and the most offensive cuss words. Violence though, that's okay from the silliest cartoon all the way to a rated R movie. Violence is everywhere. We laugh at it these days. We show it 24/7 on cable news and any other station that will carry it. Why? It gets ratings which makes the station money.

The other thing that needs to be done; restore the hierarchy in life, Grand Parents, Parents, Adults then kids. If kids these days don't respect adults how do you expect them to respect anyone else?

I was just told one of the kids died so I am done here.

Howard44024, I am so glad "15" is home safe and sound. I wish your family a lot of peace and support in helping that child through the traumatic after-effects of this disaster. Thank you for providing your personal insight into a somewhat antagonistic comment string.

Say what you will about parenting, but if a kid is being bullied everyday, they'll only take so much before they snap. And the popular preferred method since Columbine is to shoot. (I dont know if that's what happened here or not) :(

"Lies, damn lies, and statistics."

Sweeping generalizations will raise the ire of many people. Grouping all into one column or another (for the sake of statistics) causes nothing but confusion, anger and retribution.

I believe I just read where 1/2 of the newborns in the US were born out of wedlock, that makes them come from single-parent homes. (Co-habiting doesn't make it dual parenting, either. STATISTICALLY, these are single-parent homes.)

So with sweeping generalizations towards single-parent households, 1/2 of the kids in the US will become juvenile delinquents--and their parent will be to blame.

So before quoting statistics, realize that many of us are not cookie-cutter failed parents. Realize that statistics are only as good as the definitions that categorize the researched items/people. Statistic gatherers seldom stray from one small area in their attempts to validate their hypotheses.

(Just as an aside, I had two of the worst parents on the planet--the sperm donor and the incubator. I've come to think of them like that, because neither deserved the title of mother or father. They were horrible, cruel, mean, abusive, you name it. My sibs and I, by statistics, should have all been in prison or dead by now, if the valuations put on their total lack of care were valid. However, all of us turned out to be productive citizens with excellent children. Our parents were the poster parents on "What not to be." Joan Crawford in "Mommy Dearest" was a cake walk in comparison.

Further, we were also raised with firearms. None of us has ever been in trouble with the law. We use our firearms to hunt, target shoot, etc. We have all taken the appropriate classes regarding their use--public and private. So have our children and grandchildren. We are extraordinarily responsible people. I don't believe I have ever had a researcher come and ask me about my history on any of these items, nor has any of my family. I'm wondering where some of these statistics come from.)

Back to the news, very sadly, I see where one of the students has died. Many condolences to the family.

STOP BULLYING NOW!!! this will continue until anti bully laws are passed and enforced...time to teach kids that school is for education and learning, social life is outside of school...separate boys from girls....start making changes that will help this situation....

bicfi- This has nothing to do with the NRA. Your just that ignorant to fact of it being bad parenting or just a disturbed kid. Thank God of forefathers went the pansies that most like you are or we would be asking "like a spot of tea" or even "Heil Hilter".

joeb: Someone forgot to lock the cages again and the animals are on the loose.

Please don't refer to people who do these types of things as animals. They are disturbed people, for sure, but animals don't deserve to be categorized in this way. They are much better behaved than people are.

How did he get the gun? Were his parents irresponsible by not placing a trigger lock on it? Was it loacked in a gun cabinet? His parents should be held accountable if it is found that the were irresponsible guns owners.

To the NRA jackass who asked how long it would take the UK to train people to use a gun when they are invaded... What an inane argument. This "invasion of country" argument is laughable.

Well the blame game is off the hook today and the answer is all of the above. Guns ye bad parenting yes bad scholl curriculum yes etc etc etc. All have a reson for their existence. Trick here is it is also none of the above. Guy goes into work after being fired and shoots up the place. Is that bad parenting is that bad schooling? No it is a person who has a mental disorder and creates a crime. Columbine was not the first shooting at a school and that incident the proved they did it for attention. Imagine that. Lack of attention to thos kids made them try to kill as many as they could and then take their own lives! I used to live a few miles from Cardon and in fact after I sold my house I rented a condo just north of there. I also was a member of the coutry club right there at 44 and 90 which is just north of this beautiful city or town if you will because it is small. Now as we learn more this may be a targeted shooting relating to bullying. If it is we need to do what is needed to stop this practice asap because it is hurtful and serves no purpose. So now we are glued to the tv or radio and left to ponder a completley unneccesary incident that has killed one person so far and injured others so two lives are completly ruined at this point and many many others will never be the same.

Browns backer - It's called corporal punishment, not capital punishment. Capital punishment is death.

@Darren Uk, who said:

" Nowhere in the US constitiution does it say that the public are allowed to carry guns."

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Second amendment, sweet cheeks. There you go, sporty. You're welcome.

Whocares- This happened in an area that is 90% white. What you speak of happens every day in more DIEverse areas. In NYC there are over 700 felonies committed in a school year which is 180days without summer school( that about 4 felonies a day). Or "Jan 17, 2011 – There are a reported 90 teenage girls who are pregnant now, or have had a baby this school year, at Frayser Middle/High School in Memphis"

These things happen every day in the US its just not reported on due to being not newsworthy. The Penn state guy made national news every day for 2 months straight due to it being unusual. But an 11yo non black girl being gang raped by 20+black guys in TX was only local news, but UK news which I track was how I found out about it. Google (11yo black panther gang rape) to see about how the black community supported the rapists, saying the 11yo consented.

To the UK guy are you really from the UK or trolling? The UK has a special SWAT team named Operation Trident chartered specifically to deal with black gun crime. Race riots broke out over the summer in London after Operation Trident killed a drug dealer in a shoot out. Riots burned buildings which had survived 2 world wars, so how is that gun control working for you. The riots that followed the high on crack Rodney King who started a fight with cops, ravaged all of LA but the area where Korean shopkeepers camped out on their roofs with rifles.

Europe and the US are being invaded with 3rdworlders. In WWII the emperor of Japan said he would not invade the mainland of the US as there was a rifle behind every blade of grass. A militia in colonial days was all able bodied men"

"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials."
— George Mason, in Debates in Virginia Convention on
Ratification of the Constitution

There are two methods of fighting, one with laws, the other with
force: the first one is proper to man, the second to beasts; but because the
first one often does not suffice, one has to have recourse to the second. - Niccolo
Machiavelli

Stop making a case for hunting as the reason for owning guns. Not that it's not a good reason but the 2nd amendment has nothing to do with hunting or sport shooting. It's insurance against the ever present, creeping threat of tyranny. "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Guns are not the problem. When I went to school it was common to see rifles and/or shotguns in the students and teachers vehicles especially during hunting season. The whole time I was in school there was not one school shooting in a town with four high schools.

Darren UK,

You are going nowhere with this argument. This kind of atrocity happens regularly. Get yourself a gun and learn how to use it. Every unhinged maniac out there has one, so protect your family.

Whocares- This happened in an area that is 90% white. What you speak of happens every day in more DIEverse areas. In NYC there are over 700 felonies committed in a school year which is 180days without summer school( that about 4 felonies a day). Or "Jan 17, 2011 – There are a reported 90 teenage girls who are pregnant now, or have had a baby this school year, at Frayser Middle/High School in Memphis"

These things happen every day in the US its just not reported on due to being not newsworthy. The Penn state guy made national news every day for 2 months straight due to it being unusual. But an 11yo non black girl being gang raped by 20+black guys in TX was only local news, but UK news which I track was how I found out about it. Google (11yo black panther gang rape) to see about how the black community supported the rapists, saying the 11yo consented.

Really, can we talk about a school shooting without attempting to implicate black people for something that has nothing to do with them? How about praying for the victims, rather than using deflection tactics to try to defame people who have nothing to do with this incident.

I agree with some people who are saying that this could have been caused by bullying, but instating uniforms and separating boys from girls, isn't going to end things. It is only going to force kids to be more creative in their insults. Also, getting rid of backpacks in schools doesn't work either. Most schools say that you can carry a backpack to and from school but they have to be stored in a locker for the duration of the day. Yes, I realize that they may be able to hid something there, but they would be just as able to bring something in without a backpack. Those who are desperate can get creative. It is very easy to hid things in clothing and who says that they would hid something in the pants or a sweatshirt?

This boy needs a great deal of help. Kids don't just decide on day that they feel like shooting a bunch of people without being pushed there by wither bullying, their home life, or a mental illness of some kind. If he can be rehabilitated into society I wish him the best of luck, but if not, then it is best to keep him locked up until he can be helped. This would be not only for the safety of others but for his own safety. If he is unstable enough to attempt to kills others, then what could he do to himself. He needs to live so that justice may be served.

Thank you. During school it was totally common to see students with knives for hunting/fishing and to see guns in the vehicles during hunting season. It never occured to us to get a gun and shoot someone, a plain old fist fight was entirely adequate, and the knives were considered tools and not something to stab a bully etc. with. Times have changed but it is not the physical items that have changed but society itself, and not in a good way.

Nowhere in the US constitiution [sic] does it say that the public are allowed to carry guns.

Read the Second Amendment. I find it laughable that a British Subject would dare to make any statements concerning violence in the US, when the UK has plenty of "yobs".

That, and the uncompromising slaughter of so many in the 'colonies' of the United Kingdom.

I knew the "blame the guns" crowd would come out.

A gun can no more kill someone on it's own than a pencil can misspell a word.

...just as I knew the "guns don't kill people, people kill people" crowd would come out to justify guns.

What is the use of a handgun, if not to kill people? Had this kid, the shooter, only had a pencil, another child would still be alive.

Now it's time for the "let's pray and make a shrine to the dead" crowd to come out. Tomorrow it will be another town, another school, another dead child. All for what, exactly? To boost the floral and stuffed toy business?

somebody knew this kid had problems , the parents ? the school ? his friends ?

he ruined a lot of lives , including his own .

@Darren Uk, who said: "Why does anyone need a gun?"

Open a history book! We fought a war 240 years against people similar to you whose idea was to keep the masses defenseless under the guise of "why do you need a gun?" When are you Brits going to learn to keep your nose and your hands off America! Freedom is something you can't possibly understand!

My condolences go out to the victims of this terrible tragedy. I hope we learn how to better identify at risk people and get them the help they need before they resort to violence.

Mama Bear had a gun too Mr. Darren UK

http://biggeekdad.com/2012/01/dont-mess-with-mama-bear/

Steven B.

Yes there are yobs in the UK. If they had guns, the body count would probably be similar to here. As far as, 'uncompromising slaughter of so many in the 'colonies' of the United Kingdom', you'd better get with some native Americans about that one.

Hey Boomer-1099676, so it's "single parents", is it? I was raised by a single parent -- my mother -- because my father DIED when I was young. But I bet you don't give a rat's hiney about things like that. It's just "single parents" who are at fault.

There are MILLIONS of people who do not commit crimes, and they are children of SINGLE PARENTS, Boomer-1099676. Oh, and I suppose that YOU never once did anything to make your own perfect parents ashamed of you, either.

h engbers, I am all for Gun Control. Control of where the gun is stored, control of how the gun is stored, control of where the gun is pointed, control of how the gun is used, control of who is allowed to use my gun.

And, h engbers, I am also a "Liberal".

Mr. U.K. We got the second amendment to get rid of your oppressive government. Whe do we still have it? To keep the crazy governments from invading us again. Oh by the way the militia the 2nd amendment talks about was made up out of regular citizens. It was not some special Army group. It was farmers and we kicked your behinds out of our country.

Maybe I skimmed too fast but I haven't seen anyone comment on the fact that this story was one of three stories in slide 2 on MSN's front page with slide 1 being something about best and worst fashions at the Academy Awards.

Really? Prissy, bitchy, barely-worth-the-time-they-are-given actors/actresses get more attention than a school shooting. Are we so desnsitized? Or are we really just so lost from some core values that we can't take the time to open our hearts to some real compassion nowadays?

Really?-1739510, you are against standardized testing in schools because, as you put it, "local standards should apply". Really Mr. Really? Here is some news for you: Because of how people are re-locating entire families just to find a job, your vaunted "local standards" are no longer enough to ensure that a person's education meets the standards of the place they will likely have to move to. A 10th-Grade education may be enough for you or your children, living where you happen to live -- but it won't be enough for your neighbor should they be forced to move to a place where a Collegiate-level education is REQUIRED.

Oh, and your insistence that standardized testing was started in 1980? I was in elementary school in the 1960's and 1970's -- and we took tests that "happened" to be NATIONAL Standardized Tests. Perhaps you need to go back to school.

Komertz described the shooter as an outcast who had apparently been bullied

Seems like alot of school shooting these days are from bullied kids. Yeah, there are bullies but kids need to realize that their actions have consequences. Both the shooter and the bullies. Karma sucks eh?

ebc - "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

This was said at a time when there were few laws in place, fewer people to be a danger to themselves, and less law enforcement. Those such as yourself who continue to hang on to this antiquated statement to justify more innocent deaths are out of touch with reality. Things change. It is impractical, dangerous, and certainly irresponsible to hold to this so-called "right" today. What if the kid who died was yours?

This shooter was bullied - how is that a parenting problem? The parents who failed are the parents who now have kids with gun shot wounds...shut your bully up or pay the consequences. Your bully has no right to torture other kids...most of these shootings have a history...want to stop this stuff? Kick the punk bullies out of school - you can't reform a bad attitude, let them die in a ditch - not all kids are worth saving.

Most likely this is gun lovers killing other gun lovers - how can that be a bad thing?

Drainbramage,thank you,you have made the most intelligent statement on what the problem is on this post.

Parents should tell their kids if they bully others what might happen to them,this has nothing to do with guns or with parents whose kids take care of bullies.

I see people saying things like, "I just knew the anti-gun people would jump all over this..." Why would you think people in favor of gun regulation would be all over this? You didn't think that just because it is a story about a crime involving a firearm. No, you though the people in favor of gun regulation would be all over this because it involves a someone getting their hands on a gun who shouldn't have.

I don't think that people shouldn't be allowed to have guns, that isn't what it's all about. The laws should make it not possible to buy a gun without the wait, the registration and knowing that the customer is not otherwise disqualified from owning a gun. When guns are kept in your home they should be in a secure case with trigger locks. And if it were up to me, a gun safety class certificate too.

Why is that asking too much?

bicfj Thank You Again, NRA. THANKS VERY MUCH, AGAIN, NRA.

Thank you NRA for looking out for those of us that have the right to bear arms against those the would remove that right. Liberals and Liberals in positions of power that would force their views on all citizens. While in the meantime criminal would have guns aplenty.

@Darren UK;

As a Brit, you clearly have no idea what the 2nd Amendment means. As two recent U.S. Supreme Court decisions on the matter indicate, Quote "The right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear arms, Is in fact a right of the individual citizen, not the state and shall not be infringed". End Quote.

Clearly gun bans do not work, Even in the socialist paradise that you perceive the UK to be, See the shooting incident in Scotland. In absence of firearms, knives, clubs, pipes and bricks become the weapon of choice. All far more violent, but clearly, guns are not absent from the UK and Europe. Criminals will have them regardless, as they don't adhere to the laws to begin with. Laws only work with those who choose to obey them. Those who do not are the predators of society or they are the "freedom fighters" of countless revolutions. Like the one where you all got sent packing after Cornwallace' defeat.

Tend to Britons affairs, my friend. That is enough to keep you busy for quite a while. We no longer need British advice or guidance, we told you that in 1776 as I recall.

@Darren UK

Then you clearly never lived in the United States. Why cant we just ban them? Banning guns in our country would be nearly impossible to enforce. It isnt just the 2nd amendment, it is the fourth as well, the one that prevents government seizure We can not go house to house and confiscate 250+ million firearms, not to mention there is no comprehensive list saying who owns one and who does not. Not to mention, we have Canada and Mexico (okay, not much is getting smuggled through Canada) that could support a flow of illegal firearms for criminal gangs. Then you have the people who would have conveniently lost their guns in a boating accident.

We will never be able to rid our country of firearms, but if we make them illegal, suddenly only criminals have them. Law abiding citizens who did not turn theirs in may be tempted to sell them at some point (limited supply, increased demand). Oh yeah, not to mention our Constitution prevents it.

Lastly, yes, people do need guns. People are assaulted every day in every country of the world. Home invasions are a common occurrence, as are mass shootings. As a victim of a violent crime, I stand behind my right to own and carry a firearm, and I will do so until the day I die.

From a few other things I've read, this kid sounds as if he might be schizophrenic. This doesn't condone his behavior or comfort the victims' families. Teenage brains are works in progress, and when you add mental illness and easy access to firearms to all that inner turmoil, you have the recipe for this kind of tragedy.

However, as someone above commented, bullying has existed forever, and the majority of outcast kids move on with their lives. In an ideal school, bullying would be grounds for expulsion.

As for the gun trade: There's a majority of responsible gun owners, but for others, guns and what they represent are as addictive as crack, and we all know how well the war on drugs has gone.

Megidolaon

Stull - Sorry, but being an outcast has nothing to do with this.

I too was an outcast. I grew up in small town USA. Most of the kids I grew up with no longer associated with me due to my clothing label saying "made with love by mom" and not Nordstrom. I am 47 years old and I graduated from high school in 1983. We didn't have computers or cell phone back then so picking on kids was not Internet Facebook wide or snap a picture with a cell phone and pass it on. Image has a lot to do with being picked on and it is more wide spread than it use to be due to the use of cell phones and the Internet plus a lot of parents don't hold their child accountable for their actions again therefore "kids will be kids." Maybe you weren't picked on like some of these kids have been picked on. I know I wasn't to my face they may have talked about me behind my back and what I didn't know didn't hurt me. So my friend I will say I disagree with you on your comment.

I'm sorry but I did not see in the article where the student had stolen his/her parent's gun and brought it to school.

Maybe parents should start using metal detectors on their kids before sending them to school.

Social, not all the weapons these kids use they get from home. Guns are easy to get on the street as well.

I pray all survive this latest tragedy.

Don’t be naive #Janine, the percentage of children using guns that came from the home of a parent or friend in school violence is much higher than any other method of them obtaining a weapon. These kids aren’t buying weapons on the street. I would bet money that the gun came from the home based on the odds. It is horrible that this continues to happen, but at the same time it is also frustrating and upsetting that people still do not properly store weapons in the home, especially when children can have access to them. They need to be locked up and out of the reach. I hope that no one was seriously injured or killed in this shooting.

Whoever is the registered owner of the gun that apparently wasn't locked up properly should be charged with criminal negligence and as an accessory. If people want to own guns, they should be legally responsible for any harm that comes to someone else due to their not being locked up. If it has been stolen, then there should already be a report. If not, it's the gun owners responsibility.

If parents started paying more attention to their kids from an emotional rather than materialistic standpoint many of these problems would go away. But that's not as easy.

Stop the Meth Boomer-1099676! We don't need to be all "Amished" just lock the guns if you own any like a resposible adult. So we all have to live in a cave, sorry but this killings are not from affluent backgrounds, it's always the lower end of the American spectrum, "the working poor".

Who knows where this student got the gun? If there had been no gun in the home I am sure he could have found some other way to inflict injury on his fellow students as he clearly set out to do. Parents can lock up guns but often a teenage boy would have access to the key as many gun owners teach their children gun safety and responsibility. I personally am not a gun owner but I get tired of blame being put on gun owners rather than the mentally disturbed individual who harms others with whatever weapon they choose. Prayers for the victims, their families and friends and prayers to this disturbed student and his family.

Salomenini,

Wrong. They are not all from the "working poor". And my house has plenty of guns.

Salomenini..........Klepold and Harris from Columbine weren't from the "working poor". Klepold's family in fact were far from it.Nor were either of them from single parent homes Boomer

Salomenini,

RE: "it's always the lower end of the American spectrum, "the working poor". "

Great job you just "WON" the "Dummy of the Day" award for that ignorant comment.

Opinions based on feelings and thoughts without first hand knowledge of the subject are not only worthless by design but dangerous as well.

Have a great day...................Genius

Schools should teach gun safety, the law and the consequences of gun misuse. Make sure they know what will happen to their lives. Schools do so with childhood pregnancy issues. I was exposed to guns at an early age. I was given my first 22 rifle when I was eight. I was properly instructed and knew the dangers.

Have the neighbor Cops come in and scare the hell out of the kids. Show them some gory films and take them to prison on a field trip. Have them talk to inmates. Once they know their cozy little life will end if they commit a crime, their attitudes will change.

@cmstubbles-

I suppose you think that if some one steals your car and runs over a bunch of people in a crowd before you notice it missing, that you should be charged as well. What a stupid idea.

The responsibility needs to be with those responsible. Unless some one handed the gun to this person on the way to school, the criminal liability begins and ends with the shooter, as it should.

Lets not forget the article where the 11 year old girl died after she got into a fist fight slapping match with another 11 year old girl over a boy after school. She got a bloody nose and threw up later on that afternoon. Later that evening her mother took her to the hospital where she died. No guns here just fist.

Kids are disrespectful these days, their parents are blaming the other kid and hanging with the wrong crowd. What ever happened to a kid being a kid? Moms are dyeing their kids hair at the age of five. The little and young girls dress like tramps and wear makeup. The young boys dress like thugs. They all have cell phones. Riding bikes, playing with hot wheels or dolls is uncool after the age of nine. It's the parents that have created these little monsters and they just don't understand where they went wrong.

If the weapon DID come from the parents, the fact that the parents A) Owned a weapon while children are in the house - this is perfectly fine, so long as they B) Have a safe to keep the weapons locked away in and C) teach their kids proper respect and safety rules for the weapons at an appropriate age. If the latter two items weren't followed, then yeah, I would hold the parents at least partially responsible for their child's actions.

@ahnerrj

RE: "Schools should teach gun safety, the law and the consequences of gun misuse"

That would be OK but it should be taught at home first.

"Have the neighbor Cops come in and scare the hell out of the kids"

They do "Some" of that as well.

Its really a great school system with great teachers and wonderful employees. All very professional and caring.

Anytime I go there to pick the boy up I'm on my best behavior.

@howard - Yeah, definitely should be getting taught at home, but it quite obviously isn't. Too many parents seem to think if they teach their children nothing about guns the problem will somehow go away. Same thing applies for sex education. These head-in-the-sand-parents are the cause for a lot of our issues today...

It's a sad time when we start saying the schools should educate our kids about things we are responsible for teaching them. A sad time indeed.

Agreed Sister.

I taught my children about gun safety, alcohol and drugs. My children were firing a weapon at 12, With my supervision. They were also told what to do if someone was firing a weapon at people when they were around. they are all in their 20s now without problems.

We also need to teach our children to take tweets/texts/emails/etc. like that serioulsly and report them ALL to an adult - their parents, a teacher or principal - someone. I know we all want to think they are the result of some kid's twisted sense of humor, but they're not. Please, kids, report them to someone - anyone! Even if only one in a million are real, it is worth it - your family and/or friends could be in danger. Reporting it could save many, many lives.

Potluckclam- You fail at multiculturalism. In NYC a hot gun can be bought on the street for less than 4 meals at McDs. NYC has the strictest gun control laws in the nation but they also had 67 shootings last labor day weekend. There are a group of 4 states in the North West that have not even had 67 people with gunshot wounds in a years time despite the fact gun ownership is common there.

In the UK they where forced to be honest about gun crime in a land where most cops were unarmed. SWAT teams named Operation Trident had to be formed to deal with black gun crime in the cities.

Someone forgot to lock the cages again and the animals are on the loose. Courts have to start issuing sentences to fit the crime. You take a life you give up your right to live. You can not expect the tax payer to support these animals for the rest of their lives. Those of you that do not support Capital Punishment should take it upon yourselves to support these animals for the rest of their lives. To me, the killers are a waste of air,regardless of their age.

Great solution, kill the people that kill. Of course then we would have to kill the people that killed them and then kill those people and so on till there is only one of us left. Then there won't be anyone left to kill, or for that matter procreate with and the human race will go extinct. That will totally solve the issue.

RE: "Schools should teach gun safety, the law and the consequences of gun misuse"

Last video I saw of a cop giving firearm safety training in a school, he shot himself in the leg...

Howard44024,Scools should teach those knuckle heads that bully other kids what might happen to them,kids have a right to defend theselves against being harmed by stupid kids.

Brokenarrow,

RE: "@howard - Yeah, definitely should be getting taught at home, but it quite obviously isn't. Too many parents seem to think if they teach their children nothing about guns the problem will somehow go away. Same thing applies for sex education. These head-in-the-sand-parents are the cause for a lot of our issues today...

I understand what you are trying to point out but I can tell you from first hand experience that all of the education in the world (from both parents & teachers) won't amount to "Jack" if and when a human being snaps (psychotic episode which in laymens terms is a "Nervous Breakdown ". Age does not matter ,nor does gender, race, or socio-economic status.

We still don't know where TJ even got the gun.

The 2nd amendment doesn't give you the right to kill. And if you're so against the 2nd amendment, just go ahead and put up a sign on your house saying "I do not believe in owning guns!" Let me know if the cops get there in time to save your butt....

(in case you didn't get the reference, criminals will always find a way to get their hands on weapons, no matter how many laws you try to pass to stop us law-abiding citizens from owning them)

Brokenarrow, I like your style.

My thought: there are plenty of mainstream movies out there that make using a gun to kill people look easy and relatively consequence-free, and promote a tough-guy image of the shooter. It's a parent's responsibility to make sure their children understand these are simply special effects in stories; too many kids act like they can mimic what they see in movies these days.

Gotta lock up the gun, knives, booze and drugs (which kill the most) and burn Spocks books. Don't you dare embarrass, discipline, or spank a child. Use love and ???????

I love this anti-gun rhetoric spewing all over this board, especially from our friends in the UK as in thread #1. Why do Americans need guns? Simple answer is that we don't "NEED" guns. We HAVE guns. And with having the gun comes the responsibility not to do anything stupid with them. What we don't have in this country is a level of common sense that allows people to responsibly own or do anything anymore. No one is held accountable in this country for their actions. We are all victims of something, be it corporate greed, single parent neglect, bad acting on Sesame Street...you name it. We refuse to hold ourselves accountable for the actions we take that affect those around us. And with that attitude, this society will continue to decline into apathy, then anarchy, then extinction.

I do feel incredibly bad for those affected by this tragedy. No one should have to endure the loss of a child, let alone at the hands of an IGNORANT, SELF CENTERED, WEAK, SCARRED INFANT who couldn't handle the fact that the world is a difficult place sometimes. Well congratulations Child. Now that you've murdered another human, I hope this country has the decency to show you the same mercy you showed your victims. Don't drop the soap for the next 20-30 yrs.

The UK needs guns as well. The race riots of last summer in London wouldn't have happened if blacks where not more likely to have a handgun than a police officer. A SWAT team named Operation Trident had to be formed specifically to deal with gun toting blacks, in a land where many cops dont carry guns.

Also, lets keep exposing our kids to these horrible, evil, killing machine video games. So many kids are playing them for hours each day with the parents not saying a damn thing or checking the games that are brought into the house. Wake up parents and get involved in your kids lives again! So many of these games are horriffic and extremely graphic. They should be outlawed! If not, we are going to keep seeing things like this happen!

@Bunkie11

Thank you for proving my point.

Bunkie, I really hope you're joking about the video games issue.

I've been playing video games since I was 5, I'm 23 years old now. I'd have to say that I've lived a fairly normal, non-aggressive life. I've also never wanted to shoot anyone, for what it's worth.

It all comes down to parenting, my parents were able to teach me the difference between reality and make believe early on. That's the difference. It's up to the parents. I would bet that at least 80% of parents that buy a rated M game for their kids have no clue what their kids are playing. Very few kids/young teens are mature enough to play these games.

Seriously, first it was violent films, then rap music, then Marilyn Manson, now video games. All of those just equal parents' lack to monitor their kids and decide if they're intelligent or mature enough to handle it.

Weird. Daniel Parmentor died in this school shooting. While Daniel Parmenter died in the Northern Illinois University school shooting. Almost identical names.

Answer me this Scenester.....why do these games have to promote killing, maiming, cannibalism, etc. Its ridiculous and ludicrous.

Any 2 amendment person will tell you they teach their children how to handle a gun properly that why they know how to shoot it! It the mental aspect that they don't understand a child is not able to handle owning a gun they are able to get to the locked gun because the parents give them that access, the parents don't check it every day before the child leaves for school. The child is not disciplined enough to own a gun.

Apparently, these "parents" cannot even provide their children with breakfast in the morning. I could understand if this were a poverty-stricken area, and if the school's breakfast were the only chance those kids had of getting a decent meal, but it's not.

This is what I find sadly ironic. Parents have completely forfeited their responsibilities as parents. They have forced the school systems to do their jobs for them, a job schools have never been equipped or funded to do. And then these same parents are the first to grab torches and pitchforks when the schools fail to do both jobs at once.

Schools are for teaching information. Parents are responsible for teaching right from wrong, for teaching discipline and respect, and for teaching responsibility for one's own actions. And it starts with parents giving their kids a healthy breakfast.

Until parents start doing their jobs again, sadly, events like this will likely continue.

JKiff, did it even occur to you that kids may choose to eat at school? I certainly didn't come from a poor family and my friends and I ate breakfast together because our bus picked us up at 7 am. What an ignorant thing to say! And FYI, this was back in the 90's.

bubba - I advocate that parents do both: Keep their weapons locked in a safe so the kids can't steal them, AS WELL AS teach the kids how to handle the weapons and the safety rules and respect required to do so at an appropriate age. It's the parents that try to pretend guns don't exist that are going to have their kids shooting other kids. Why? "well i saw it on TV..." Same mentality applies to sexual education: parents fail to ensure their kids understand how things work, and then wonder why they end up getting pregnant/impregnating someone else's daughter before they're out of high school.

Seeing as a lot of parents simply fail to teach their children the proper respect for weapons, I really feel that weapon safety should be taught in school. This doesn't mean kids even have to handle the guns, just get a decent weapon safety video suitable for children, and have the teachers discuss why it's important. It definitely can't hurt...

Brokinarrow,

I actually think I remember an elementary school presentation to that effect. If you find a gun, don't touch it and tell an adult. It's in there with my memory of stop drop and roll.

Pragmatic - Eh.... that leans a little to much towards the head-in-the-sand approach for my tastes. I would prefer more of a "This is a gun. Guns are NOT toys and you should never ever point one at a person, nor pick one up without your parents with you. You will be in BIG trouble if you do" Something to that effect... And it'd be a good idea to show that in different forms in several different grades to drive the point home.

Also - I wouldn't mind requiring a test before someone is allowed to own a firearm. Just a basic test to insure they do know the safety rules. If you can't pass something that basic, you REALLY have no business owning a weapon...

JKiff, The cafeteria was being used as a study hall.

Single mom here. My sons father left when my son was 8 years old. His father never looked back. From day one I taught my son right from wrong and that includes the handling of guns. When my son was of age he took a gun safety class. In Boy Scouts he became a Jr. NRA sharp shooter and he was in the Jr. NRA quarters club and missed the dime club by one shot. My son has never been hunting. We love to skeet shoot and target shoot. There has never been a problem in my home with my son and or his friends with my firearms. My son is 21 years old and to this day he will ask me if it would be okay for he and his friends to take a couple of my weapons and go target shoot. It's called respect. I am my sons parent first and friend second.

Brokinarrow,

There is an element of folks out there that would be adamantly opposed to any restriction, even passing a "this is the trigger, this is what you pull to a) fire b) reload c) purchase puppies" type of test.

@Bubba - No, any 2nd amendment person will tell you they have taught their children proper gun safety, that way they learn to respect the gun, not fear it, not find it cool, and not want to play with it. This isn't an accidental shooting where the kid found a loaded gun and it accidentally went off hurting a friend, this was an intentional act by a person hell-bent on hurting people. All the gun safety training in the world cannot stop a person from these types of actions.

I have two children, they are 8 and 10 years old. They have been taught proper gun safety since they were about 3 years old, which started with them not being allowed to point toy guns at friends, doing so resulted in the loss of the toy. They now both have been allowed to fire real guns, including shotguns, rifles, and gasp, handguns. They know where the guns are, they know that they are not allowed to touch them unless their father or I are with them. We do have trigger locks on all of the long guns, not because of our kids, but because we don't know whether their friends respect guns or not. Our handguns are all kept in a safe in our bedroom, again, more because of the kids friends than anything.

@Pragmatic - Sadly yes, there are a good number of people that wouldn't want to see that happen even though evidence might point to such a thing making the country even a little bit safer. Just as sadly, logic and reason usually don't mean much in an argument with those types.

I fully agree if you own a gun in a family that has children you have the responsibility to teach that child how to handle the weapon responsibly and respect it, you also have the responsibility to make D&% sure it is located where that child can not have access to it unless under strict parental supervision. How do we make sure that idiots do not have access to weapons. I choose not to own a gun, I also believe the Second amendment was not written for today's society, but I respect the rights of those that abide and follow the laws.

@pragmatic and brokenarrow

The more moderate of us gun owners don't see a problem with some form of REASONABLE safety course, for a SMALL fee even. The challenge comes when the anti gun folks get that inch then start wanting more and more. See NYC for a prime example. It is LEGAL to own a handgun but is so restricted to get to the point where you are legal it is effectively a BAN. Between expense and having to KNOW someone not many can legally own in NYC and then only in very specific situations once licensed.

I have my CCW in a SHALL issue state. The course was 150 for two days and two hours of range time where I had to qualify a set of targets. The application fee was 95 (renewal is 25). The restrictions are FEW and reasonable. I can't take it into a posted building, government building, prison/jail/police station, hospital or a school of any form. I can carry onto a school ground to drop off or pick up someone. We can even carry into a bar now, if it isn't posted otherwise, just not consume alcohol in any form.

I don't see a need to carry ALL the time but there are times I see fit to do so and the CCW keeps me out of trouble going to and from the range. I don't have to do the whole locked case separate from the gun and away from my reach.

@bubba

You hit the nail square on the head but in a broad sense. PEOPLE are no longer responsible in general. They feel someone else should be responsible. When the Constitution was written and those first 10 Rights were added people WERE more responsible not only for themselves but the larger community as a whole.

Plain and simple, parents today don't give a rat's a$$ anymore. When my kids told me they were spending the night at a friends house...you can bet that I made a call to that friends parents to make sure they were going to be home. If I did not know the parents, I met them before I let them go over to the friends house. We did not allow video games in the house, we sat down for dinner as a family and believe me we asked questions about their day, homework, etc. And for those of you lazy parents today raising kids saying this isn't the 1950's, this was just a couple of years ago. You made the decision to bring your kids into this world, now do your job and raise them with love, care and yes, discipline.

Bubba I am a life time NRA member. I am also a certified instructor for the NRA. Yes I have tought my kids to respect guns. The one thing you got wrong is that I am also a responsible wepon owner and I keep them locked up at all times.

This is why DEADBEAT FATHERS or Deadbeat Mothers needs to step up and be a parent, stop drinking, stop smoking, stop watching Drama television like MTV, And also I'll say FACEBOOK is to be blamed also, no one under age of 18 should have facebook account, it's too much bullying, drama going on on web, TEXTING-Bringing Cell phones to school is to Blame also. Maybe if Parents tries more HARDER to save marriage for sake of their kids and talk to their kids by showing them LOVE, then this event won't happen again and it's been going on for many years since Littleton, Colorado in 1998. WAKE UP, PARENTS!!!!

Keep your kids away from Drama, Horror movies. And SINGLE PARENTS are also to be blame for this kind of nonsense.

hey saintdarkins

you are an idiot

First every person is different. They all have their own agendas and beliefs on how everyone should live their life. You have good people. You have bad people. You have smart people. You have stupid people. That's the way it has always been and it's not going to change anytime soon. When people realize that they are accountable for their own actions and it is not the fault of a Gun just sitting there. It's the Human that picks up that Gun and uses it illegally to commit crimes and murder. Stop making it a LEFT/RIGHT political problem or Religion Rhetoric. Again EVERYONE needs to be accountable for their OWN actions, period!

Well Sam..............how about I just take your "right" to drive away since people are killed by drunk drivers.

I didn't know that the "right" to drive was in the constitution. It's a priveledge that gets taken away from you if you do it irresponsibly. That said. So should gun ownership.

Cars are not made for killing. Guns are. It shouldn't be that tough to understand. I'm a gun owner but I'm not one of the fanatics who think they're safer because of gun ownership. That's a fantasy like the Tooth Fairy and Lapierre not being gay.

Guns are not made for killing just as cars are not made for killing. BUT, either, if used improperly, will kill very easily. And, you better believe I am safer because I own guns!! If you don't think so just try beaking into my home.

Geno - Actually 20/20 did a report in which they found increased gun control laws led to an increased rate of crime. It's really common sense: When you make it more difficult for law abiding citizens to own weapons, the criminals profit.

I'm not saying EVERYONE should be allowed to buy a firearm without question. Obviously people with mental disabilities that would make them dangerous and felons should not be allowed to buy them (though in the case of the felon, they'll probably get them anyway if they really want them). But I feel that over-the-top gun control just isn't going to work.

What we need instead is an increased level of gun EDUCATION. That will help to stop accidental deaths. And it might not stop actual murders and assaults with weapons, but that's because criminals really don't give a damn about the laws in the first place...

And USA1967 - Guns were absolutely made to kill, as were swords, maces, etc. However, it's quite obvious that a gun by itself isn't going to kill anything, it takes the PERSON to pull the trigger.

Geno - Actually 20/20 did a report in which they found increased gun control laws led to an increased rate of crime. It's really common sense: When you make it more difficult for law abiding citizens to own weapons, the criminals profit.

I saw the same report. I did my homework on where they get that information. The trend exists for 7 states and they are the ones with stricter laws. The rest of the states do not follow this trend. I wouldn't say there is no income tax in the US because 7 states have no income tax.

The only good trend you can get from data like this is a nice inverse relationship between the state's so-called "brady score" and "percent of the population identifying themselves as conservative." That should hardly be surprising.

Again, it's really common sense. If criminals know that people aren't allowed to buy handguns, and that a majority of a population don't own guns, they're going to have the confidence that they can get away with a lot more stuff.

If, on the other hand, criminals know that there is a 50/50 chance they could get shot by the homeowner as they try to break in, they'll be less likely to try it.

The focus on criminals confuses me. What is more hazardous to the general population, a criminal who seeks a gun to commit a crime or a good citizen who obtains a gun and then loses his or her grip on reality and commits violence with the gun?

The argument that people kill, not guns is interesting because as far as I can tell, no one is saying that a gun, all by itself, killed someone. I think we all know that it is people + guns that result in so many deaths and injuries. So, I'm not sure why it is so common for people to point out that people kill, not guns.

My complaint is about hand guns. Handguns are the #1 murder weapon in the US, by far, every year. handguns are just too good for killing: easy to transport and conceal, easily available, works just about everywhere except under water. hm And, I once heard, that for every one killed, six are injured. For example, in this case, no one was killed, only injuries.

I like to think that if we were writing a constiitution today, there would not be a right to possess handguns.

To every gun grabber here tell me if you would help or just drive by the following situation.If you would join in like Google (11yo gang rape black panther) please dont tell me.

http://www.truecrimereport.com/2010/01/anferney_fontenet_15_rapes_wom.php

Anferney Fontenet, 15, Rapes Woman on Busy Toledo Street; No One Stops to Help By Pete Kotz in

Tuesday, January 26, 2010
The 26-year-old woman was walking from a friend's house to the library when she was accosted by 15-year-old Anferney Fontenet. He pulled a scissors and said he would cut her if she screamed. Then he raped her in broad daylight as cars drove past.Though several drivers called 911, no one bothered to stop and help the woman. One driver slowed down and beeped.
Even after the boy fled, stealing her cell phone, the woman tried to borrow the phone of a pedestrian. But the man just kept walking, refusing to help her.

Which has left her pretty pissed. "I'm ticked off because people were doing nothing," she told the Toledo Blade. "Just driving by. What kind of humans are we becoming?"

Davey- what are you smoking that you dont think handguns existed before the US constitution was written? Guns are actually less deadly than during those days due to better medical care. Care for a gunshot wound to the chest during the civil was just bedrest.

Steveaae is trying oh so very hard to make this school shooting fit into his racial paradigm by presenting the same two bits of non sequitor to prove that the black community is the reason a kid in a affluent area would use a gun to deal with the bully. It would be a persuasive argument if he could make even the most casusal linkage between the two disparate communities in this case (be like saying because there are black folk in America therefore the mass shooting in Norway was their fault because some blacks have problems with gun violence), but instead he's hoping if he can prove some black gun task force in the UK is real (or some rape story he clings to has the right amount spin) that you will conclude (like he has chosen to) that his pet demons are your pet demons, too.
TSK, pitiful.

well it is only a hour and a half after the shooting.. and isnt shooting anyone with an unloaded gun impossible?

last week was a 3rd grader shoot a 9yr. old, and a preschooler I think it was? brought an unloaded gun to class

protojim-- I don't know the details of the story you're talking about, but I do know that unloaded guns don't shoot.

they probably have all the details they can release at this time

that should probably read as two sentences y'all I had to read it twice myself to get it.

last week was a 3rd grader shoot a 9yr. old

and

a preschooler I think it was? brought an unloaded gun to class.

that makes more sense.

I think they were talking about 2 separate occurrences....the first being the shooting in Washington and the second being a preschooler that brought an unloaded gun to school

protojim: You did not read the article on the unloaded GUN. If you did you would have read the kid found it outside, he told his mother about it. Yet she failed to inspected it. The mother and the kid thought it was a fake gun..... or a old cigarette lighter....

The story on the 9 year old was shot when the other kid placed his backpack down and the gun discharged a round. People say well a gun just does not go off on its own. NO kidding so they say he must have had his hand inside of the backpack. Even though all accounts and witness say other wise. So how did the gun go off, well backpacks hold many items including books. Possibly a corner of a book got inside of the trigger area and when he set the bag down it caused the gun to go off is the best guess. Now why did the kid bring a gun to school?? The kid stated he was going to run away and thought he would need a gun to protect himself out on the streets.

Let me ask you this whats up with the parents. Well what can parents do now days to discipline their kids now days. We cant yell, scream or spank our kids now days. Why we will be arrested on DV or Child abuse. Most kids now days don't have any respect for adults, other kids or themselfs and only want what they think they want. ME ME ME ME is all they can say now days.

Why this all started when GOD, The Pledge of Allegiance, and a real education was kicked right out of the schools and replaced with I, ME and PC BS.... GOOD JOB EVERYONE

Everything you ignorant idiots wanted and now YOU GOT IT. Now look at the USA and understand all this BS is what you get when YOU TAKE THE LOVE OF GOD AND COUNTRY out of SCHOOL and you take away parents rights to raise there kids as they see fit. YOU FINALY GOT WHAT YOU WANTED NOW F***NG LIVE WITH IT.

Protojim, there was no pre-schooler involved. The gun was in the kids backpack and went off hitting a classmate. The Kid did not intend to shoot the other student.

That said the parents of both children need to be held accountable for the actions of their children as do the children. The 9 year old has likely learned a very valuable lesson, to bad it was at the expense of another child. The teenager(s) on the other hand had intent and will likely be tried as adults. In both cases, it is not as simple as keeping them locked up; the parents need to educate their children if they are going to have guns in the house. Furthermore, it does not matter if the parents of the teen(s) took proper measures in storing their guns; any parent of a teenager knows that if they want something bad enough, they will find a way to get it.

I feel sorry for the victims and their families and pray that everyone recovers quickly.

The point is a 3rd grade student had access to a loaded weapon and shot someone, and a pre-schooler had access to weapon that, fortunately, wasn't loaded but could have been. What kind of idiots are the parents? There were weapons in my house while I was growing up; they were kept unloaded while in the house and if I so much as touched one my ass would have sung Grand Opera for a week!

Okay, I see by a later post the gun went off in the kid's backpack, not a 'point and pull the trigger' situation, but he STILL had easy access to a loaded weapon and shouldn't have. As for the pre-schooler finding it - if he showed mommy and she let him keep it, she has to be a complete moron. She thought it was a toy? Did she touch it? A real gun feels different than a toy, the weight alone should have told her it wasn't made of plastic and she should have taken it away at the very least.

Leatherneck...............well said. When I was in grade school ( a long time ago ) you NEVER heard of shootings even though guns were everywhere and kids respected Dad and Mom. Nowdays..............

How sad, how tragic, my heart goes out to those who may have lost loved ones!

Question: What is it that leads young people put such a low value on human life? When I was young we would never have considered doing something like this because of the respect we held for others and the FEAR of the consequences. Children today seem to have no fear in respect to taking responsibility for their actions, I believe this starts in the home and the lack of a solid family atmosphere with a father figure of authority teaching children they will answer for the choices they make.

Perhaps the young people see how 4000 children are killed every day in this country (Over 53,000,000 thus far) in abortion mills and reason that if it's OK for someone else to take a human life why does it matter if I want to do the same. In schools our children are taught they came from pond scum and are no different in nature than a monkey or a rat; what's the going price for a rat these days? Just sayin'......

As for how the kids got a gun, they got it the same way they would have gotten Grandma's medication for pain, or the car keys, or a kitchen knife. Again the problems lies not in the objects used to commit crime but in the motive and mindset of the individuals who carried it out. What are we to do put cameras in everyones home and let a super computer chip monitor our actions to make sure we don't mess up???

I submit something is dying in this country and around the world, man is not getting better morally as anyone who watches the daily news will attest. Until people step up and take responsibility for raising the children they bring into this world we will not see any change in the right direction. We can not legislate morality and ethics and the job of raising our children can not be left to Hollywood and the video game industry. (What is a kid who sits for hours each day "killing" people on a video game going to be good at? With such a fine line between fantasy and reality how easy it would be for a child to shift gears and slip into trouble....what goes in is coming out!!!)

well it is only a hour and a half after the shooting.. and isnt shooting anyone with an unloaded gun impossible?

Until the gun goes off, no one - except the one bringing it to scholl can tell if it is loaded or not , recently a kid did bring a gun to school - to scare some bullies who had be giving him a hard time. The police came, shot him dead (one to the back of the head). Then discovered the gun was both unloaded and was a replica. Of course - the standard exculpatary statements were quickly passed around. The parents intend to sue, the school wasn't to blame, the cops weren't to blame ... yada, Yada, Yada.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Tying school shootings to abortion realitycheck? That seems like a major stretch to me. I wan't taught in school that I came from "pond scum," whatever you mean by that, and no one has every implied to me that humans are no different than monkeys or rats. What school are you talking about? I'll go with just about everything you said outside that one paragraph, but try to keep on topic, don't try to say this is the fault of something you have no proof a link to.

Diolki: It all boils down to a sense of values!

First of all I'll answer your question on the condition you answer mine about what determines the value that some put on anothers life.

Obviously to many, the worth of anther's life is based only on "what it can do for me", This "what's in it for me" attitude is directly related to what we are taught as children. While I agree abortion not the topic, I know some (children included) who feel human life is considered expendable because we are lumped into the same category as animals (like monkeys, rats, dogs, cats, etc....) and as such have no more or less value than the meat found at a local grocery store. Also I find it disturbing that society can look at a little child with a beating heart and a fully developed body inside the mothers womb with no more regard than they would have for a bag of chicken livers and cherry jello. The sheer numbers of those killed by abortion and the acceptance of such surely has an effect on what some perceive as the value of human life.

At the risk of bearing the brunt of intolerance for my personal convictions; what I meant by the comment about coming from pond scum is obviously a reference to the teaching of evolution versus creation.

Creation teaches I am "wonderfully made" (Psalm 139:14; oops there went my credibility, I believe in a book written by a bunch of crazy, sand-dwelling superstitious old Jews) have a soul, and have great value in the eyes of a living God, where evolution teaches I accidentally "happened" as a result of water running over a stone. Anyone familiar with the odds of this happening by accident knows the probability of such is beyond supposition, many, however, continue to side with science so-called not because it makes sense, but because they do not accept the existence of God. And so it goes.....I'll respect the rights of others not based on their merit as far as what society feels is right but on the premise that I should have love and respect for my neighbor because God says I should! Kids who kill other kids have no self worth, they don't feel loved or appreciated so they say "what the heck matters", how sad, how tragic, considering the thing they need costs so little to give.

NRA Member-1019361: Ok sunshine where do I contradict myself. What Religion do I belong too wise guy. NONE would be the answer. I don't go to church or am I affiliated with any Religion. Yet I do believe in GOD and don't need to go to a church to pray. I don't need a Preacher, Bishop or any other person to be between me and GOD. Freedom of Religion is just that, I can practice and Pray when ever I ****ingwant too. If that means in the first 5 minutes of school then what problem is that. When I was in School we had a moment of Silence to pray if we wanted too, those that did not were not forced to PRAY OR told anything from the BIBLE. So who are you people to Force your Ideas or beliefs that there is no God and Take away everyone elses right to pray if they ****ing want too. What happened to the Pledge of Allegiance, we cant have that. **** if any of our kids grow up to not know what country they are from. We don't want to upset all the illegals...since they still want to live in Mexico and wave the MexicanFlag on US Soil while burring the US FLAG.

You need to research the Freedom of Religion to understand all that meant was the US Government could never Ever Ever establish a national Religion, like what happend in ENGLAND. ALL WERE WELCOME TO BE PRACTICED here in the USA.

NRA member my backside............

@Leatherneck - who is telling students they can't pray in school? Just because the school doesn't have a specific time for prayer doesn't mean it can't be done. By all means, pray whenever you want to.

As for the Pledge, my children have attended two different elementary schools, both say the Pledge every morning.

Hey leatheridiot, your god never saved this country from anything because he is fictional.

Master Bob: God does not interfere with FREE WILL. If God came down every time you heathens missed behaved or said There is no GOD. Then if a fact there would not be FREE WILL. Why God would be interfering with FREE WILL.

By the way nice change of the name, like I have not seen that before...

natedom:

SAN FRANCISCO, June 26 - A federal appeals court here declared today that the Pledge of Allegiance is unconstitutional because the phrase ``one nation under God'' violates the separation of church and state.

Well I dont know where your kids go to school at but out where I am you cant pray in school or you will be suspended and possible sent to alterniative school.

Though I agree that bullying is a problem, many kids that do these things may have some form of mental illness that other people have no power over. Bullying was most likely a factor, but it may not be the entire reason.

can you imagine have to fight the gays off (Not being able to fight back) every day and messing with the kids heads saying the blacks are the same while giving them the grades because they are legally required,and the black are bigger because they mature earlier these kids are only going to take so much and do what comes natural and that is seek revenge.

Yeah I am sure it's the gays and blacks fault... Are you freaking kidding me?? It's your type teaching this hate filled mindset to your children that start the problems!!!!

The bullies were ruthless when I was that age. But I never considered for a second that bringing a gun and icing those jerks was a solution to my problems. I could think more than two steps into the future. Now I'm successful and they are not. A far better revenge!

You are right bullying has been going on for probably as long as there has been a school system. What has changed is that the children going to school today have no respect for anyone. It starts at home first with parents have no control over their children. The biggest reason is DCF who encourage children as well as teachers to report any scratch or bruise to them. Children have no respect for the law when I was growing up it wasn't the beating if any you got by the police that scared you it was what you're parents would do when you got home. Today the majority of teachers care more about their paychecks than they do about teaching. When I was in school you never heard about AHDD. This is just another way for teachers to pass off to a shrink who will prscribe an assortment of meds to treat a B.S. diease otherwise they might have to get a real job. You might as well give these kids ACID with all the side effects. When one of my children was in grade school they had a vein that was close to the skin. Of course the teacher called DCF who immediately invaded all aspects of our lives despite their own doctor telling them it had nothing to due with violence on our part. Our home was invaded weekly for another 3 months despite their own doctors findings. So you have DCF telling your children you can't even raise your voice to them,Teachers who don't teach,Judges who don't judge. Like it has been said for thousands of years spare the rod spoil the child. Which if you think about it for a moment it worked for thousands of years except for the last 30 or 40.

WOW, Dark Demon, sounds like someone got their milk money stolen as a kid, or somebody made fun of you for being "goth". Unfortunately these jerks at Columbine have somehow made it "acceptable" for kids to go nuts and shoot their fellow classmates. Growing up in the late 80s and early 90s we didn't have a term "bullying". Bullying is a kid who beats up people and steals their milk money, the rest is teasing or picking on. While it can be uncomfortable at times it is a PART OF LIFE. I was picked on for certain things due to my body type, and the way I walked, but I never carried a gun into school and shot them, nor did I raise a fist. I knew the consequences. The parents are creating pu$$ies unfortunately. Kids and adults of all ages will endure some level of teasing or "bullying" our entire lives...learn to deal with it and "man up". A nation of pu$$ies is all we're becoming. A man kid who takes a gun to class because he was "bullied" is a true coward, if he didn't like the way he was being treated, either stand up to them, remove yourself from the situation...don't hang out with them, or turn the other cheek. What a waste. The sad thing is this loser didn't take his own life. He killed a kid because he picked on him...great, now you're tough. Enjoy getting a$$ pounded in prison while my tax dollars pay for your sorry butt. Death penalty for this kid would be too expensive. A bullet to the head outside the school from the lost child's parents would be justice.

My husband is bipolar and suffers from severe depression. His problems began when he was a teenager. He went from being very active in sports and getting straight A's in school to fighting, doing drugs and running with a bad crowd. He got kicked out of school and lost his interest in sports. He was a senior in high school and in the process of joining the military, he even gave that up. I met him a year later and within the first year we were together he tried to kill himself 3 times. Today he is in his 40's seeing a therapist and taking meds to regulate his mood. His mother still denies that there is anything wrong with him and says that I put the idea of a mental disorder into his head.

So, to answer your questions, you can not know that your kid is that screwed up if you are the kind of person that finds it easier to believe your own truth instead of the facts. I am willing to bet the shooters parents will say "he was such a good kid, I never saw it coming" while his neighbors will say "I complained to his parents when he shot my cat with a bb gun but they denied it was him".

What the hell is wrong with denverrocks and some of the other dimwit posters? How do you know that this has anything to do with parental upbringings or bullying or anything else. Another genious poster is moaning about the fact that the facts are sketchy. It just happened, idiot!! And someonewholives here--don't bet on what his parents will say.My granddaughter goes to that school as does others in my family. WE don't even know all the details yet and won't for some time. So instead of the usual: one family parent problem, rich parents who don't have time for their kids problem, the NRA's problem, gun ownership problem, bullying problem yada, yada, yada. Instead of inane speculating, how about doing as we are doing which is to let it sort out until all the facts are known. Because as of now, you folks know nothing. Nada. Zero.

Sigh. As usual you have it backwards. A militia is made up of armed citizens, to repel invaders and to stop excessive government control. If you are only allowed to have weapons if you are in the militia means that the militia can't be formed as there are no armed citizens to do so. Our founding fathers knew what they were doing. Stop attacking the Constitution and start eliminating what sets these horrors off in the first place.

So much emotion Paul, but the occurance of these type of shootings are statistically low per year. You are exponentially more likely to be killed by a Republican, holding a harpoon, in the heat of some kind of religion induced fervor

We have several "well regulated" (which means trained) militias. Reserve forces and the National Guard. A bunch of armed citizens is not a well regulated militia. A general could not easily command them in battle. Military movements would be extremely difficult if not impossible.

The second amendment can be interpreted to stop excessive government control. But not in the way the right keeps putting it. We can figure out what was meant by just looking at the earlier revisions:

A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, being the best security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; but no one religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person.

In other words, if a militia composed of only the people were the military, the president couldn't keep elite forces loyal to him and use that against the people. If anything, it advocates not having a regular standing army. (Further support for this idea is found in Article 1 section 8).

The founders saw the ability of citizens to keep and bear arms as important. But not for the purpose of having an armed populace. And not as a power check to the government. It was for having a military with a bring-your-own-gun condition.

In the SCOTUS "Heller" decision, the court recognized the right to bear for self-defense, even outside the home, as being the correct interpretation of the Second Amendment.

I disagree with the way you said this. The SCOTUS interpreted the second amendment as not being defined strictly within the scope of those serving in a well-regulated militia. It extends to all people for non-militia purposes.

I also don't see what your contention is with what I said. Your comments don't really go against what I said. The founders clearly saw the ability of the populace to keep and bear arms as important for having a well-regulated militia. Because when s**t hits the fan, you don't want to have to go around passing out weapons to your reserve forces. You don't want to have to go through the congress to get the appropriations to purchase weapons while those idiots stick riders on giving everybody a puppy or some other political BS. That's it. That's all there is. That you get to own a gun and hunt or have competitions or defend yourself is a bonus of that national security need.

So one parent stays home to teach? Most parents I meet these days can barely dress themselves. Great way to turn this into a third world. May work in the hills where getting to fifth grade equals a MBA.

In the 50s, most households only had one parent work, and the average salary for that parent was much higher than today (after adjusting for inflation). There's an oversupply of workers today with both parents working, and according the laws of supply and demand, that makes everyone's salaries cheaper.

last week was a 3rd grader shoot a 9yr. old, and a preschooler I think it was? brought an unloaded gun to class

protojim-- I don't know the details of the story you're talking about, but I do know that unloaded guns don't shoot.

Moderate Mathew....He is referring to two DIFFERENT stories....you are right, unloaded guns don't shoot.....learn to read the post before you attempt to belittle someone please!!! Yes he is right, a 3rd grader shot a 9 years at school AND a preschooler had taken a unloaded gun to school in his backpack......

Emmett87-you are so right. This is just 1 of the reasons more and more parents are turning to homeschooling. In our State, we have thousands of parents that now homeschooling-just in our city alone we have about 2,000 homeschooling mainly because the schools quality of edcuation really is very, very poor and our schools are brainwashing kids, telling them they can't talk about God, and in some schools here they even make the kids sign a contract that they have no freedom of speech. It has become really, really sad out their in the school system. How can any parent feel that their children are safe when you have kids taking guns to school-you never know when you will get a phone call that your child got shot and killed at school. The parents of today are so selfish that they can't time away from themselves to be involved in a family life with their children and teach them right from wrong. The parents are the biggest problem of the children today. I homeschool my child and he is getting real education and with what is going on in the schools today-I would never even consider putting my child in school. I'm a single parent, I work 8 hours a day, I do work out of my home, and I manage to home school my child, and he is very active in scouting, sport and other organizations with other homeschooled kids.

R. Scalzo-Homeschool kids score a lot higher on their ACTs than other kids do and are very successful in life- so don't knock it because you obviously do not know anything about it.

Kanic,

You bash R. Scalzo for saying that we'll end up like a third world nation if more parents home school, then you go on to say:

The parents of today are so selfish that they can't time away from themselves to be involved in a family life with their children and teach them right from wrong. The parents are the biggest problem of the children today.

You just supported what R. Scalzo is saying. I happen to agree with you both. Parents are the problem and we shouldn't be encouraging them to home school. The really driven parents will stand out and they will do a good job homeschooling their kids. But if everybody did it, we'd be a nation dominated by know-nothings within a generation.

Pragmatic-3918583,

What do you know about homeschooling? Seems like to me the nation has a generation right know that is full of know-nothings. If you check your facts homeschooled kids are better educated, make better grades, and do much better on their ACT and college than the know-nothings of today. Homeschoolers are getting much better educations than what the schools are providing today. Really, most kids today cannot even fill out a job application today-talk about a know-nothing generation. I strongly encourage homeschooling, and I like I said earlier we have about 2000 doing it just in our city alone and that because these are parents who don't want their children to become know-nothings. I homeschool my child and in no way would I put him in the poor quality education schools that we have today. My child is in a homeschool program that is designed through a college and is a very advanced ciricculum and in way will he turn out to be a know-nothing from the education he is getting.

What do you know about homeschooling? Seems like to me the nation has a generation right know that is full of know-nothings.

I know quite a bit actually. I know that the number of people seeking and attaining college degrees is increasing. Doesn't sound like we're rearing a generation of know-nothings.

If you check your facts homeschooled kids are better educated, make better grades, and do much better on their ACT and college than the know-nothings of today.

We have SAT's where I hail from. Home schooled kids are above the national average, but not by much. When you have a small sample size such as the number of home schooled kids and not a huge difference, it is hard to infer a strong trend. And for me, test scores aren't everything. It's what happens in college and in the real world that matters more. Homeschool kids excel there too and the difference is much easier to quantify.

I strongly encourage homeschooling, and I like I said earlier we have about 2000 doing it just in our city alone and that because these are parents who don't want their children to become know-nothings.

I'm confused why you seem to be jumping down my throat. I was supporting you for homeschooling and I was supporting you when you said that parents are the problem. I was extending that on to say that parents who take no interest in their children have no place homeschooling their kids. It isn't for everyone. A+ for watching a movie every day isn't a good education, but parents with no interest in their kids would do it. So I was supporting R. Scalzo who said we'd be a third world nation if we scrapped traditional schools altogether and forced everybody to homeschool. I extended that to say that in one generation we'd go from a pretty well-educated society to a very uneducated society if such an event were to take place. Make sense?

well as a student i think that we should have metal detectors, not just cameras(i mean they dont do everyhting) and i think people should man up and actully raise their kids right!(im not saying that some dont do good jobs, but some dont even care for their kids)bullying is definately an issue too, there was a kid at my school earlier that did suiside, and the princibles said nothing! i dont understand y people will stand by and say nothing and let the gossip spread. all im saying is the schools need to tighten, parents need to pay attention ans students need to quit hating everything.

Pragmatic-not jumping down your throat-it's just that people make comments about homeschooling when they know nothing about it. Homeschoolers are very well-rounded kids and have no problem in the real world or in college because they do a lot of learning out in the real world besides just in the textbooks. To say we would be like a third world country is not so-not if parents would really get involved in their childrens lives-which we all know will never happen. Children's #1 educators are their parents-it's all comes from the home. No, I didn't day everyone should homeschool-because that would not be pretty either. I don't where you are from-but I know down here where I am from I would never put my child in a school around here. The schools around here are putting out very uneducated children and too many drop outs-that is why so many parents in our State are homeschooling. There are over 175,000 kids being homeschooled in this State alone-that says something is really wrong with the school system and it also says that we have a lot of parents here who really do care and want their kids to have an education. You wouldn't believe what some of the schools around here are putting out-I know some people who have kids who are in high school and on a 2nd grade level, so I'm just saying that the school system today is not any better than a third wordl country education, not in this area of the map. Our State is good at putting out alcoholics and drug addicts-that's the educations our kids get around here. Hope this makes better to sense to you.

Kanic,

From your post it sounds like we are coming from very different areas. Our state is in the top 5 in the nation for public education achievement and we have several world-renowned universities within a 45 minute drive. Very few homeschool around here.

A swimming pool is LITERALLY 100 times more likely to kill a person than a gun: http://www.freakonomics.com/books/freakonomics/chapter-excerpts/chapter-5/

How about if you have a swimming pool or have allowed your kids to visit a swimming pool, then you get the death penalty? It only makes sense, since any given pool is 100 times as likely to kill a child as any given gun.

It's already dropping and has been for years. This concurs with a significant increase in legal gun ownership over the same time period. Violent crime in general has dropped, again significantly, during those years. Oddly enough, the number of violent crimes in states/countries that have severely restricted/banned guns usually goes up. England is a perfect example. Before you state anything about their low homicide rate since banning most guns, please realise that their gun death rate was very low before so the ban didn't actually do much. Attack the reason for the violence, not the machine that is used to conduct it.

@C, The death penalty for having a gun? The death rate will go down to none? In your world, having a gun is death, SO, The DEATH rate would actually RISE from guns. Maybe you shouldnt lite up your bowl this early in the morning before you've had your coffee.

Guns are designed to do one thing and one thing only--kill. Don't think you can say the same thing about swimming pools.

@ mr r... why must you assume that because his ideas differ from yours "he must be on drugs" .... ridiculous accusation and quite rude.

C,

By your reasoning, we should also outlaw silverware so the Obesity problem goes away too.

oneiron-4324713

Guns are designed to do one thing and one thing only--kill. Don't think you can say the same thing about swimming pools.

Tell that to the USA Olympic shooting team. I'd contend that, much like a swimming pool, guns can be used for recreation and competition, but carry some inherent risk (like almost every activity) of injury or death.

Guns are designed to do one thing and one thing only--kill. Don't think you can say the same thing about swimming pools.

Firstly, guns are not designed to only kill. My .22 rifle was designed ground-up to be a competition shooter. Secondly, even if they were, doesn't the fact that swimming pools are literally 100 times more efficient at killing people than guns even though they weren't "designed to" only reinforce my point?

Really? Owning a gun should result in the death penalty? There are two dozen guns in my house, not one of them has ever been pointed at a person, loaded or otherwise, but because I own them I should be put to death? My mother-in-law has multiple guns in her house, none of them have ever been pointed at anyone; she has, however (albeit completely by accident) killed someone with her car. But clearly, she should be put to death simply for having a gun.

I have a better idea. Let's not jump on our pro-con gun bandwagons even after we have all the information. Good and honest people don't kill other people on purpose using any means.

Sarcasm and arming children are not the answer. Use your head.

rfaber9 - Pray tell, exactly what is then? Use your head and tell all of us so we don't continue to see this in our schools.

Be glad to. Parents, start parenting. Teachers, start teaching. Courts, start punishing in a functional manner. All of us, stop whining and realise our present problems are self induced. Stop voting for one issue idealism. Elect people, not politicians. Financial pain is going to be necessary to stop our decline. "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum, a wise Marsupial. Now, since I figured that out it is your job to institute this and other corrections. Good luck, you have the much harder job.

So how do you then protect the teacher?

You certainly assign a great deal of power to me by intimating that I have the ability to "throw God out of the schools". I sometimes have to struggle to get the lid off a jar of pickles but have the incredible strength necessary to throw the Supreme Being out of a building. As the song goes, "One of these things is not like the other ..."

Pastor Mike... if you are a believer as you claim, you know God is everywhere, so enough with the dramatics... and you know what... YOU and YOUR children can pray anytime & anyplace... I am a schoolteacher and I pray all day for the strength to carry on and instill knowledge in my students... I just don't pray aloud and that is ok with me and with GOD!

Oh sure. Just because people can't have organized prayer in schools people start shooting each other. Yeah, sure. Umm good try.

Pastor Mike,

Do you know of any law that would prevent God from being somewhere?

Oh, ye of little faith.

There is no logic in his statement, just typical tea bagging fear and propaganda. They learned these tactics well from their heros the terrorists.

Criminals know where the sitting ducks are. Schools, churches, etc where guns are prohibited.

the more the democrats push for gun control, the more people against it will purchase more guns.

if obama gets elected again, may the Lord help us all!!!...

Guns they can't afford.

I am not a republican by any means, but answer me this: why do these mass shootings almost exclusively happen in so-called "gun free zones"? The vast majority of these shootings occur in places such as schools, courthouses, city government buildings-- all places where the shooter knows that the citizens there who actually CARE about obeying the gun-control laws will be completely unarmed and unable to shoot back.

I recall Bill Clinton being one of the best gun salesmen of all times. As soon as he mentioned the words "gun control" and "ban", gun manufacturers had record sales. As soon as Obama got elected, the almost bankrupt gun manufacturers and gun dealers got a second life. If you want a name brand gun, you have get on a waiting list. Ammo prices have gone through the roof the last three years. Democrat president equal more guns on the streets.

"I am not a republican by any means, but answer me this: why do these mass shootings almost exclusively happen in so-called "gun free zones"? The vast majority of these shootings occur in places such as schools, courthouses, city government buildings-- all places where the shooter knows that the citizens there who actually CARE about obeying the gun-control laws will be completely unarmed and unable to shoot back."

Well with that logic, there should a huge number of shootings at airports. The places you describe hold many people and often alot of tension. Schools have gangs and rivalries, courthouses have trials and emotional people both prosecuting and defending, city government has corruption and layoffs. So, you feel that schools courthouses and such would be safer if we allowed guns inside? Seriously?

I think what you mean is baseless fear mongering by gun dealers and manufacturers results in panic buying by the barrel sucking lemmings.

Rob, airports are the most secured and most heavily armed places in the world. Anyone foolish enough to pull out a gun at an airport is hamburger.

Isn't that a comforting thought?

That's exactly what we don't need, more heavily armed idiots randomly shooting at innocent targets.

Cross fire? Who cares who gets hurt in the cross fire?

Rob-2135103

Well with that logic, there should a huge number of shootings at airports.

There's a big difference between "gun-free" and secure.

You're sort of supporting the original point, if you can't ensure that no guns will be present, than a "gun-free" zone is a soft target. That said, do we want secure zones (and the related tax bill) in every school, courthouse, and government building? Armed personal and backscatter scanners at elementary schools?

Well with that logic, there should a huge number of shootings at airports. The places you describe hold many people and often alot of tension. Schools have gangs and rivalries, courthouses have trials and emotional people both prosecuting and defending, city government has corruption and layoffs. So, you feel that schools courthouses and such would be safer if we allowed guns inside? Seriously?

This LAX airport shooting happened only the DAY AFTER I flew out of LAX one time. Kinda freaked me out, so I always instantly remember it when uninformed people such as you claim there are no airport shootings: http://articles.cnn.com/2002-07-04/us/la.airport.shooting_1_el-al-gunman-yakov-aminov?_s=PM:US

As for why there aren't as many shootings there as other "gun-free zones", the simple answer is that they have the highest number of armed security there than any of the other zones. I'd guess there's probably 1 armed guard for every 5 other people. Do you really want 100 armed guards at every school of 500 kids? Who will pay for their salaries? The simple answer is to let my wife (a teacher) carry a firearm for he protection of herself and the innocent students in her charge, and she'll do it for free.

Weird... poor hicks, poor urbanites... seem to have the same pre-occupation with guns and Pick-up trucks.

Kids go to school hungry, the family lives in squalor. But there's a new or Cowboy Cadillac (custom pickup) on the lawn or a 4-door, hydraulics's equipped customized low rider in the parking lot and a stash of guns in the house somewhere. Hicks raise 'em and urbanites drop 'em.

Stupid teenagers still bullying...I'm sure that was the cause of this, as usual. When are they going to learn that they might bully the wrong kid and this will happen? Several kids heard about and/or read texts or tweets about this kid bringing a gun to school? Not excusing the shooter's behavior, but also not believing the shot kids were angels either. It IS from bad parenting...and bullying, which comes from bad parenting lol. People blaming guns are morons.

I grew up in a household with loaded guns and I had trouble in school sometimes too...but hey, I never shot anyone. Because my parents taught me how to deal with ups and downs of life, and I had a strong sense of what's right and wrong....because of them.

I know that the parents are responsible for their kids, but what if bullying is going on. No matter how much we talk to our kids, if the schools DON'T DO NOTHING ABOUT BULLYING NOTHING WILL CHANGE.

If you read the stories about the shooters you will find out that a lot were bullied and the schools did nothing. This is the schools fault if after the bullying was reported and the school did nothing and the bullied kid did something like this then the school is responsible.

The parents are to blame, not the school. If you have a child, you are responsible for him/her in and out of school. Raise the child correctly and you won't have this problem. Bullying stems from overly permissive and uninvolved parenting.

............shotgun in the kitchen............

Maybe they need to change what they're offering for breakfast.

Seriously, they are now saying on live TV that the wounded students were waiting for transport to another school. No word on the school the shooter goes to.

Well of course, the spread from those shotgun rounds would go around the innocent and only hit the bad people.

What planet are you idiots from?

Grownup,

You watch too many Dirty Harry movies where they used saw-off shotguns with less than 18-inch barrels and a spray pattern that covers the side of a building. A typical shotgun with a 30-inch barrel holds a very close pattern, especially with buck shots rather than bird shots. It just let's you hit the intended target with the first shot.

The philosophy of the old west ... a good bartender always kept an "equalizer" under the bar. The "Hair Net brigade" - armed and dangerous... that's a thought... ;)

Lunch lady - have gun, will travel