I don't get this whole "goth" thing?

When I was a teen, I got really into industrial music, It was basically all I listened to before I discovered puck rock. Nine Inch Nails, KMFDM, Ministry, all great bands. Sure, there were violent undertones and heavy riffs ... but it's music. I don't buy this social nonsense that music and video games create these sickos. Some people are just really bad apples, and with little-to-no direction, this is what will happen.

I entirely get the goth thing. Do you remember the song "Everyday is Halloween" by Ministry? that pretty much sums up the outcasts. Goth has been around for a long time... Marginalized, picked-on kids flock to this because its escapism. If they are treated like freaks, then thats the role they take on. Its a kind of defense mechanism. The kids who are picked on especially enjoy video games because that too is escapism. Everyone loves to escape from the pressures of everyday life. But for those of us who have excessive amounts of stress - the urge to escape is much stronger, for obvious reasons. Few of the marginalized kids ever strike out to such an extreme. But I can guarantee you - just about every bullied kid fantasizes about harm of some sort coming to their tormentors.

The shooter is a victim too. Only the people who grew up relentlessly bullied can really understand that.

For those that don't know it - here are the lyrics to the song "Everyday is Halloween" by Ministry (early 1990s song).

It does a good job of summing up the feelings of many of these outcast kids - especially the ones who decide to dress in intimidating style to try to get the bullies to back off...

---

Well I live with snakes and lizards
and other things that go bump in the night'
Cuz to me everyday is Halloween
I have given up hiding and started to fight
I have started to fight
Well any time, any place, anywhere that I go
all the people seem to stop and stare
they say
'Why are you dressed like it's Halloween? you look so absurd, you look so obscene'
Oh, why can't I live a life for me?
why should I take the abuse that's served?
why can't they see they're just like me
it's the same, it's the same in the whole wide world
well I let their teeny minds think
that they're dealing with someone who is over the brink
and I dress this way just to keep them at bay
'Cuz Halloween is everyday
it's everyday
Oh, why can't I live a life for me?
why should I take the abuse that's served?
why can't they see they're just like me
it's the same, it's the same in the whole wide world
Oh, why can't I live a life for me?
why should I take the abuse that's served?
why can't they see they're just like me
i'm not the one that's so absurd
why hide it?
why fight it?
hurt feelings
best to stop feeling hurt from denials, reprisals
it's the same it's the same in the whole wide world

For those that don't know it - here are the lyrics to the song "Everyday is Halloween" by Ministry (early 1990s song).

Yeah, but I would also bet you Al Jourgensen would say nothing would justify this type of violent response.

Trent Reznor too, would tell you the same thing. People who use their music to justify their own hate, are not the intentions or the meanings behind their lyrics. No one provides a sense of "escapism" within their music like Trent, but I bet he would be disgusted by anyone using his music and saying hey: "the guy was a victim too, and he acted out."

That's crap.

The whole point is to use the medium as an outlet, not a crutch.

There's a difference between reality and fantasy. Finding solidarity (or using it for justification) within the realm of music or video games is cop-out to a person's own delusions. No amount of bullying should make you think: "well, I know what would solve this ... how about I go to school and start randomly spraying bullets into my peers."

That being said. Yes, bullying is absolutely disgusting. But you have to remember, the bullies are weak. That's why they are bullies. It's only the weak that find enjoyment in torturing the small.

StrengthInNumbers, I totally "get" what you are saying. I know a student with a genius IQ who was bullied so badly in school that he didn't graduate high school because he missed so many days. He was accepted in to the University solely based on his SAT scores.

He was shoved into his locker and the door shut on home. He didn't tell his mother when it continued in junior high and high school because it did no good when she addressed it to the teacher and principal when he was in 6th grade. It was so bad that other students told their parents, and that's how his mother found out about it a decade later.

I can not believe teachers and other staff don't know when a child is bullied, especially when they insist the halls, bathroom, etc. are monitored.

This child, now a man in his early 30's, says he's surprised the shootings don't happen more often. Until there is ZERO tolerance for bullying, the likelihood of having zero incidents of student/school shootings is NOT very good.

The President of the School Board in the community where I live said he used to believe that a school's first priority was to educate the children. In the last 5 years or so, he's changed his opinion. Now the first priority is keeping the children safe -- from bullying, shootings, knifings, theft, etc.

This child, now a man in his early 30's, says he's surprised the shootings don't happen more often. Until there is ZERO tolerance for bullying, the likelihood of having zero incidents of student/school shootings is NOT very good.

I still don't buy it.

Look, it deeply saddens me this kid got bullied like this. But going into school and spraying bullets into a crowd???? How exactly does that improve the situation?

Do you realize what this kid is going to get in prison? Wow, forget about high school bullying ... this guy's worse nightmares are only about to be imagined. He thought Scott and Todd were bad ... wait until he meets Bubba and Neo-Nazi Nick.

If anything .... if these kids are being driven to psychotic states like this ... why aren't they acting-out with specific, calculated attacks? Why aren't they going after the bullies directly? Why shoot up a school? Sit in an alley and wait until the bully walks home or something. As horrible as that sounds, I just can't imagine how shooting up your school could give them any sense of closure.

As you cited...adults aren't any better. Putting others down to make oneself feel better is a sick and twisted reality for some...actually for many. Kids are abused at home by parents that should have never been allowed to breed (not gonna jump on the contraceptive soapbox) and then they go to school and exhibit that behavior on the kids that they perceive are better off than them.

Homeschooling must be increasing by leaps and bounds.

Depression is a likely culprit... but I doubt he was suicidal. If he was, he would have let the cops kill him.

The homeschooling option is usually taken for religious/moral reasons, or because the parents don't like how the education system performs in an area. Most school shootings are unexpected and happen in decent school districts.

Sorry my edit timed out.

Parents understand that a school is one of the safest places a child can be, despite of the headlines.

Many times, schools are safer than the child's own home.

Hi, My daughter is 10 and in the 4rth grade. There was a clique of girls when she was in KINDERGARTEN. Which is a bit unbelievable. I knew she would have to face cliques when she went to school, i just thought they would appear later. How do you get a Kindergarten clique. It all starts with a MOMMY CLIQUE. Kids learn from their parents VERY WELL.

I wish this kid had someone to talk to before he did this...someone who could have helped him to understand how little any petty the actions of others were, and how he could have a fantastic life if he just held on and allowed himself the time to experience a better life.

Statistically speaking, several of you on this vine:

• Have or will instigate bullying through your own children
• Have not or will not step up to defend your child from bullying
• Have or will in fact bully and/or abuse your own child
• Have or will stand aside when members of your community are being bullied
• Have or will continue to bully well into your adult years
• Have or will leave a deadly weapon within reach of a troubled minor

I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't intend to be a person guilty of any of the above.

I'd much rather spend the time with a child and help them become everything they ever wanted to be, than see them waste away, take their own life, or take the lives of others. Believe me, it's a lot more empowering to do the good thing.

Hey, Greg - they also learn it from what we think are innocuous things - like the Disney Channel. Just watch some of those tween shows. It teaches girls to be cliquey, concerned with appearances, and to not be "too smart". We think of The Brady Bunch as quaint, but thats what kids need today...

I went into science, but having been relentlessly bullied for being a "weird kid" in a rough city school, I now wish I had the credentials to go back into the schools and help bullied kids. These kids need people to talk with and they need a system that is strict. Dress codes are in order, as are liberal suspensions for harrassing kids. Teachers turn a blind eye to this today - because its like Lord of the Flies out there.

Too much money being spent on too many computers, on better facilities, on more teacher's aides - when the problem is societal. The KIDs - are NOT ok... and its not the fault of schools...

How many of you that are posting were ever made fun of by your peers in school.. or were even bullied? Broken home? How many kids are from "broken homes" these days that don't go and shoot someone? I think pretty much all kids get treated badly at one time or another..but that didn't mean we were ever going to get a gun and kill anyone. This shooter and his grandparents should be held totally responsible for these events. This kid also had to get ahold of that gun from someone...perhaps in his grandparent's house. Sure, I agree that we need to pay close attention to any changes in a child's behavior that we think need help. But let's lay the blame where it really belongs.

I wager if teachers were actually allowed to discipline these arrogant, cocky, foulmouthed spoiled brats we wouldn't have half the problems we have today.

But let's lay the blame where it really belongs.

After the first dozen shootings I'm kind of over just blaming parents and the shooter. Now I'm going to point my fingers at all of society because we apparently don't give enough of a sh*t to do something even if a child isn't ours. Reports are saying now that peers said the shooter always had a sad look in his eyes. Did no one stop to ask the kid what was wrong, how they could help? Maybe I'm not normal myself, but as a mother I don't let my concern stop at my own children. All it takes is one person showing they care, are willing to listen, and ready to help to change an outcome.

@Bart: I don't know about taking a gun into a bar... most places have very distinct laws regarding firearms where alcohol is served, generally prohibiting such things.

And also, "gun control" in the form of what happened in the UK is the epitome of anti-American. We're a Republic founded on Constitutional law, the second statement of which clearly states that the right of the people to own firearms shall not be infringed.

Despite the fact, the UK serves as the shining case in point example of a ban on guns leads to more violent crime. There have been so many statistics pointing in the other direction of the anti-gun lobby and the UK is the poster child for gun rights.

Yes, Matt...after someone brings their gun into the bar & shoots somebody with it, they can also be charged with violating those very distinct laws prohibiting firearms where alcohol is served, just as the suspect in this case can have similar charges brought against him...BFD...another child is dead and 4 more wounded...I wonder if the count would have been the same if he had been armed with a knife.

And while you are basking in your glorious Constitutional right to arm yourself, please try and find a few moments to ponder why our great land has become one of the most violent on earth and why we incarcerate more of our citizens than any other industrialized nation in the world...or is thoughtful consideration of the truth anti-American, also?

why we incarcerate more of our citizens than any other industrialized

The answer to that question is simple, because we're still locking people up for smoking pot and other personal choices that are not criminal and harm no one. Because we have privatized the prison industry and there is money to be made in locking people up. One thing that it is NOT is because we have more criminals here than anywhere else per-capita.

If you want to live in a "violent land" try moving south, or over to the middle east, or some parts of asia. We've still got it real good here in the ole US of A. And if you want smaller prison populations and less cost, then try working for some reforms that make it no so profitable to lock people up.

My oldest son does his schooling threw ECOT which is home based over a computer. All my boys will. School is the safest place for your child. I think not. Lets think about this for a minute , how many more students need to be bullied until they think the only answer to ending this is to take a gun to school and start shooting . How many more children must die from this result. This has to end ! And yes home schooling is increasing my sons class keeps growing each week to where they have to hire more teachers to accomadate all the students. I do not believe schools are a safe place anymore. I do agree that some childrens homes are just as bad. Things need to change.

D - you make a poor assumption in that gun bans would hinder mass murder in schools. I point you in the direction of the Bath School disaster (look it up on wikipedia). It holds the record for the most killed in a school violence incident. It was carried out via explosives, in 1927. There are other ways to slaughter many people at once, that are more efficient than guns. I will not elucidate on those ways here.

The authors of the constitution felt it important that the citizens of the United States be allowed to bare arms for a good reason. Its because freedom isn't free, and because those who would give up freedom for security deserve neither. A disarmed population is a helpless population.

And I generally vote democrat...

Ban handguns. Keep your rifles for militia purposes, hunting and target practice. Handguns are easy to conceal.

With an attitude like that about such things I hope to hell you never reproduce. Just because *you* were not impacted by your lackluster youth does not mean that others are not. I was bullied both physically and verbally almost the whole way through school, and those words and actions are still with me today. Brushing it all aside and telling kids they need to "move on and grow up" is why things like this are happening.

Yes because telling them suck it up and ignore it has worked so well the past few decades....

Are you saying that you still would like to shoot those people who abused you all those years? I sure hope not. If not, what happened? You grew up, didn't you? You realized that it's all in the past and because of it, you probably grew up with a better attitude than those people who abused you. And before you judge me I was also abused when I was growing up, and I've learned to let it go because I know those people didn't know any better and some of them still don't. And I feel sorry for them now. It's called forgiving and forgetting.

Probably why you have an Obama symbol as an icon.

Poor child.

What used to work was a switch on the ass.

Now, that is considered abuse by the ignorants.

tygercupid - sounds like the opinions of a bully.. It never ceases to amaze me how bullies actually think THEY are also picked on. Clueless. Being harassed without a break every day, in class, out of class, isolated, without friends - is different than having a few "enemies" that give you flack when you run into them. Bullying is every day, all day, and it affects people into their adulthood as much as domestic violence or any other significant childhood trauma.

The reality is, tygercupid, you did not suffer bullying the way some of these kids do. I doubt you were the school punching bag. When you experience that kind of bullying, you dont just grow out of it, anymore than you grow out of being a neglected child. There are degrees of school bullying. It can become extreme.

If what happened to me when I was a child were to happen to me today as an adult, my tormentors could be issued restraining orders, and be brought up on assault charges. There are easily dozens of individuals that if what they did to me as a child were done to me today, could be jailed and charged with various crimes.

I think these children should be charged as adults for verbal assault and physical assault, and they should be suspended. Bullying of any sort should not be tolerated. Any teacher with eyes in his/her head can see when bullying is happening. But the most sickening thing of all - is teachers too will participate or facilitate bullying. There were a couple that did this when I was a child. Its the worst betrayal imaginable.

In fact, I hate the word bullying - it diminishes the crime to mere childish antics, when it is in fact very damaging, and it is harassment. It should be called that - harassment.

Again, another person who thinks they can judge someone. You know you people who were judged so harshly in the past, should know a lot better now not to assume anything about anyone. You have no idea the kind of torment I was put through as a child and the horrible suicide attempts starting at the age of 12. My brother had it even worse than me and I never knew about it for years. And today, he'd never hurt a fly. My parents still don't know about our suffering either.

I can honestly say I never bullied or joined in the bullying of anyone EVER. I was the shy, quiet one and still retain the anti-social nature because of my experiences. That doesn't mean I'm going to start killing other people because people were cruel. I've never grown out of it in the sense that it has built character in me. I know that there are children out there in other countries that have it much much worse where they aren't even allowed to show any kind of individuality and freedom of personal thought. And I am in no way saying that you should never listen to your child if they are being bullied and talk things out and help them. And I don't know where people are getting the idea that I am condoning it either. Only a moron would think that it's okay to bully someone. And believe it or not (since you think you know me so well), I agree with you that these kids should be charged. They are smart enough and old enough to know better.

Well said, SIN. The part about teachers facilitating harassment is true. It can be so confusing if the teacher and the perps are someone you're encouraged to obey, or emulate as role models in highschool. Or if there's a clique and you're supposedly an outsider. What highschool student, especially in a rigged system full of PC and AA programs, could form an adaptive response as a teenager ... I was a popular above average student. I was harassed by cliques, low lifes -- losers masquerading as something like authority. What irked me moreover was the psychological games. I don't know about the statistics of broken home bullies. I was slugged in head, in the library, by a guy I knew who was one of my few friends who did not come from a so-called broken home. What would any of the teachers or counselors have done if I told them them who my tormentors were? I and many of my fellow students were encouraged to rescue other people; as if it was our peers, not the teachers, who were in charge. Discipline is checkered -- violence, unpredictable.

@StrengthinNumbers:
"I think these children should be charged as adults for verbal assault and physical assault, and they should be suspended. Bullying of any sort should not be tolerated."

I absolutely disagree with the idea that these kids should be charged as adults for bullying (especially verbal). Suspended - sure, hope it gets the attention of their parents. I now know a lot of the people who tormented me back when I was a kid, and they've grown wiser and gentle -- productive citizens with full lives and adorable children and civic duty, yaddayaddayadda. Some have even come back to apologize for being that way, I think more of them for that. Some haven't, but I don't think LESS of them. I can see they've moved on in life.

Why are people so willing to ruin somebody else's life? Because you, the bullied, have cornered the market on human pain? They handed you a bum deal that you'll never forget? So your solution is to MARK THEM FOR LIFE? You may have some emotional scars, you may even have some physical scars for what a bully put you through; but it isn't going to keep someone from hiring you for a job, is it? It more than likely had no weight in you being accepted or not into a University.

Bullying sucks. I know. Been there. But I'm not willing (nor was I even willing then) to ruin the lives of those that are being young and stupid and vile (I would emphasize the two former).

The bullying didn't stop for me right away, but I sensed a turning point when I came to this realization: "I am in charge of my own destiny. I have a future. Pain from a fist fades, and words can't hurt me anymore."

We don't need no education | We don't need no thought control

I think all guns should have "GPS" locks... so they can't be fired in cities / in schools. Only on rifle ranges or approved hunting areas. That would solve SO MUCH of our gun problem! It's a perfect solution.

Hitlers perfect solution. The second amendment was not put into our constitution for hunting.

Hitler knew that his people would rise against him.

SO, he invented the Youth Corp.

Took away all the high powered weapons that farmers had.

Issued single shot .22 rifles to them for "varmint" hunting.

And gave the same weapons to the "corps".

All he got was fear and dissent, and death (his own).

I still to this day own one of those rifles.

And everytime I look at it or shoot it, it reminds me how much I hate gun oppression.

Good history there, makes sense too. Can anyone guarantee me with a straight face we wont have such oppression or an invasion in the next say 300 years? Ok then.

but "guns" are the main problem, poor self-esteem can be treated, but people with guns cannot... they are the lowest form of humans. they hide behind "guns" because our constitution is out of date.

Wow, when people with your opinion speak, I am reminded of why the 2nd Amendment is essential.

@Ted Landry: Really? People with guns are the lowest form of humans? There are 80 million gun owners in America. Every gun owner I have come across has been a responsible, law-abiding citizen. I live in an area where most people own firearms. I am a gun owner. I have never, nor do plan to ever use my firearm in a manner which is not responsible. I go to the range, shoot at targets, and plan to go hunting to fill my freezer. I'm glad you so readily judge people due to their exercise of Constitutional rights. If you think the Constitution is out of date, then why don't you move somewhere without a constitution.

I agree. It seems to be easy to not worry about a "little" incident of bullying, or someone being mean, but those things add up. Those 3-5 yr olds on the playground are figuring out the pecking order. That's really where it needs to be stopped, but so many parents don't want anyone to punish their kid, and they won't do it themselves. This may sound silly, but seriously think about what it would be like if we all used good manners, and practiced consideration for others. Please and thank you. NOT getting defensive when you (even unknowingly) were rude to someone and called on it. Apologize when necessary, and even if not. Just try to go through the day being considerate of everyone, and see how much less anger you feel.

The old gun control constitution question. Yes, in colonial days guns were necessary because we did not have the communication available that we have today. And the army had the same muskets that the citizens had: suppose a president went rogue (and the ENTIRE Congress and the ENTIRE military went along with him)! Would citizens need guns? No. Would guns HELP the citizens? No. Do you really think your .44 magnum or your shotgun would stop that military tank? Or that jet fighter bombing your backyard? AND even the rogue President can't control the internet where the people would learn what is going on (even if Fox News denied anything was wrong).

Do you really think our Founding Fathers foresaw the use of Howizters? And by the way....how come the gun lobby fights for citizens to have guns but doesn't fight for them to have these howitzers? Or tanks in the back yard? Because that is patently absurd, and no reasonable man would think otherwise. But, then is it reasonable to think that hand guns and rifles are REALLY protecting our freedom from despots and dictators?

The Second Amendment is an historical document that is totally irrelevant in the 21st century and has been so for at least the past 60-70 years.

My granddaughter goes to that school, ran from the shooter this morning. I don't own a gun ,but have nothing against guns. My last statement is that tedlandry is a card-carrying idiot. And the more he talks the dumber he sounds.

@jerryb2339
Study the late '56 - early '57 Hungarian revolution. This proves an under-armed populace can oust a better equipped force. It didn't take, but the Russians had to throw all their Eastern forces into it to put the Hungarians back under the Soviet thumb. It would have taken much longer (or may have failed altogether) if the Hungarian people were as well armed as we are in the US.

Plus, your scenario where the Military goes rogue ALONG with the president and congress against the American people is absurd. Our boys are more discerning than that.

It's not the games. It's their isolated personalities that lead them to things like gaming.

As a gamer I can tell you a single episode of criminal minds is more sadistic than any game I have ever played. The kind of disturbing violence that your referring to is far more common in movies and in television than it is in games.

Ted, guns are NOT the problem, education is.

If you teach a child to fish, they will.

If you teach a child to shoot they will.

But if you teach a child that a weapon is a toy, you have a disaster in the wait.

Ted, you can only be so disrespectful to gun owners and be so full of crap at any one given time.

When is the last time you saw heads hanging from power lines? Go to Mexico.

I don't think the solution is to make kids tougher - that was this kids solution - bully me, boy I'll get you back. I also don't think bullying is now what it was back in the day, now these kids go on facebook and say all kinds of things about people, they text and the person being bullied can't get away from it. You then put into the mix the kids that have mental health issues - many of the medications they put them on can cause violence - so you have the potential here of bad things all coming together. They said he turned Goth - big cry for help - and was there any? So many kids they put them on drugs and say they are fixed and just send them home. Psychiatry is a joke. We as a society need to say enough - we need a national discussion on what is going on with our youth. Is it guns? Is it bullying? Is it mental illness? Is it video games and film/tv? What is making them decide the solution is to kill others or themselves? How many preventable victims do we need before we say as a country this has to stop? Columbine was how many years ago and we still keep having this over, and over but there no discussion on it. My heart goes out the all the families involved with this.

wicked, I totally agree with you except for one thing. Being goth isn't a "big cry for help." Most kids just think it's a cool look and want to emulate it. I know I did. I wanted to look cool and different. My "goth phase" didn't last long because I couldn't really pull it off. But I had plenty of perfectly happy, non-disturbed "goth" friends. In fact, they're still my friends. They've grown out of the black make-up and giant pants, and they're great people. Don't judge someone on the clothes they wear. Especially kids.

"Frightening how this generation of kids so easily resorts to violence to solve their problems. Where is the self control? Where is the strength of character??"

replace the word "kids" with parents and you have your answer... Kids are not the problem. Kinda of like blaming a house that crumbles instead of the builder...

Thanks to the NRA for protecting the constitution.

Anyways Arnold it wasnt the gun it was Rap music.

Let's put it this way Tony - I wager the shooter won't remain anal retentive for very long.