November 2, 1853 ~ Louisville, Kentucky ~ A student, Matthew Ward, bought a self-cocking pistol in the morning, went to school and killed Schoolmaster Mr. Butler for excessively punishing his brother the day before. Even though he shot the Schoolmaster point blank in front of his classmates, he was acquitted.

I own guns, I use guns, I feel that guns are important to my independence and freedom as an American.

But there are indeed gun nuts; I'm not talking about your hobbyist that knows a lot about guns. I'm talking about those people who have an unhealthy obsession with guns; which is a reflection of their inner death and power lusting - unable to tell the difference between their d!ck and a gun. I've met enough of them in my life alone to know that there must be quite a few out there.

Good of you to get the ball rolling, mary jones, with the first, truth through slogans post.

Now the "dialogue" will begin, as proponents from the two sides commence calling each other "anti gun nuts", "gun nazis", and other easy witticisms, whose only purpose seem to be to prevent any sensible discussion taking place.

Well done, Mary.

Well said dman. My knee jerk reaction was to pop one back at her. Thank you for your calm and sensible reply.

It is not fair to say guns kill less than flu virus. May be in US - yes. But what about all around the world? By commercializing weapons industry, how many more wars take place in the world that don't need to be. And then these clever corporations tie all of this back to "American Freedom".

But let me tell you this, that is quite a BS that a lot of people around the world don't buy. But we don't care ... do we?

pro,

only 13,000 murders occur by gun

tell THAT to the families of the people that got killed, I'm sure that really helps. (Sarcasm)

ProIndividual - You certainly posted a mouthful. I do appreciate the calm, dispassionate arguments you raise.

I've no time now. I'll respond later.

I have never owned a gun, nor will i ever but i would never take away the right of others to bare arms. When you hear these stories you wish you could say "ban guns" as if it would solve the problem. I wish we didn't have about 31,000+ deaths related to drunk driving every year, but sadly we do. Which do we ban? Alcohol or cars? None of it makes very much sense but realistically at this point in our culture, a ban on guns would leave them only in the hands of police and criminals...not sure i like that idea very much.

Children are the mirrors of adults. Look around you - see and hear the violence coming from supposed adults. Chaos in every facet of life, hidden misery in homes. Americans, with all their talk of God and faith, are baseless and the younger people feel this. Attacking teachers, attacking women and nullifying respect - behaviors that have become common.

I have seldom or never heard: "Oh yeah, we could see this coming, we figured something like this would eventually happen". Almost never. I'm tired of arguing with gun advocates or firearm industry trolls that jump in on stories like this to tell people who are "anti gun" that they are un American or fools. So I will simply say: Get used to this, it's becoming and will continue to be a regular occurrence. We have something like 200 million guns floating around this country, probably more, so just get used to it. It is going to happen next week in some other part of the country. Families destroyed, students murdered, cops killed, children accidentally killing their playmates, whatever...And afterward we'll hear the same, "We're shocked, we never saw this coming, he/she/they were good quiet people". The people who are surprised or shocked by these acts are simply not paying attention. Somewhere it will happen again, maybe tomorrow or certainly the next day. Count on it.

So to all the people who posted yesterday about single mom's raising bad kids, hope you now realize that kids with abusive fathers in the home are the real problem.

Hurry we got to protect our innocent guns!

Abusive parents don't even have to be in the home to be effective at screwing up their kids. Even once a year quality contact can be sufficient.

Which do we ban? Alcohol or cars?

We tried banning alcohol once. That didn't work out so well.

hope you now realize that kids with abusive fathers in the home are the real problem.

Abusive adults, not just fathers. Mothers, or other relatives, can mess their kids up just as bad as fathers.

I haven't read all the posts, but it seems most of them are about the gun issue. Some have mentioned, as the article does, the home environment. Some blame dad, some blame mom. Dysfunctional homes are definately a problem. However, when are we as a society going to face the BULLYING issue? Most of these shooters are loners who are getting bullied. The signals are known and clear. That is a very important place to start. Identify these at risk kids and set up programs to help them and include them in the schools culture. Also set up programs to educate the bullies to peacefully and productively involve them in the schools culture. I was a loner who got bullied. I didn't fit in until I got involved in a sport and became a participating and ACCEPTED member of a group. This is what needs to happen.

Ok. I've read some more and the bullying has been addressed. Though it is not an excuse for murder it is a problem that needs to be focussed on and dealt with. I know a young man who is presently the victim of bullies and the school does squat to deal with it. They say they will but they don't. And then they wonder why this violence occurs? Some posters say bullying is a fact of life, get used to it. Obviously they don't understand the feelings of hopelessness, fear, anger, etc. that bullying causes the victim. I would never commit a murder because of these feelings, but I can fully understand how it could push some people to it.

Our children's lives are full of violence. On tv, in movies, in the news, in video games, in books, etc. It is everywhere. And we wonder why they chose violence as an outlet. I am disgusted with our society and the stupidity of this direction we have taken. And then we are outraged and shocked that this type of thing happens? Really???? Its so obvious, yet we do little to stop it. Its very simple folks. Turn off the tv, stop buying violent video games for your children, stop supporting violent movies. Replace this stuff with peaceful, positive activities and entertainment. We become, as individuals and as a society what we practice and are taught as children. Everyone knows that, yet we let them practice violence and we teach them violence and think that it won't affect them. That is so messed up.

as long as they keep producing video games , where children go around and kill others, as long as rap songs about killing cops, these all insulate the young from the real horror of having to kill another human; these kids are acting out video games.

Endless diatribe, from both sides. There should be some enforceable restrictions on the purchase of firearms, such as; you don't need a 30 round magazine to defend your home (if you do, you have no business even holding a firearm); you should not be able to purchase a firearm from a gun show (no background check); if you purchase a firearm you should have a background check to ensure you're not mentally ill or a criminal; you should be required to take a weapons safety course (if you've ever served in the military, you know why). The only other restriction I can think of is restricting fully automatic weapons and caliber (you don't need a 30mm chain gun to bring down a deer).

First, let me say that my heart and prayers go out to the victims and the children who had to witness the trajedy.

You cannot blame guns, video games, music, etc... for violence. Instead, blame society. Blame the parents of children who feel it is okay to tease, harrass, and ridicule others for being different. Blame the schools for not taking action against kids who bully others. Blame the system for not identifying a child who is crying out for help or who may have emotional or psychological problems. And blame the parents or guardians of these children who turn to violence for failing to recognize that right under their noses is a child who desperately needs help. I feel sad for the shooter, for he too is a victim. Do you really think this is the future he wanted for himself?

My oldest daughter has been bullied since fifth grade. She is bullied because she is quiet, but she is not a loner. She is extremely intelligent and enjoys focusing on her studies. And she is also a natural beauty, blond hair, big blue eyes, and bone structure that most of us would die for. She also is a kind person. She is in high school now, and these same kids that tease and taunt her ask her for help. Where I would most likely turn away with a smug look on my face, she helps them, knowing that within an hour the kid she helped will be right back to teasing and poking fun at her expense. I blame the parents for raising kids to think it is okay to make fun of others whom they do not understand. What have I done for my daughter? I let her know every day that she is a beautiful person. I constantly remind her that high school will not last forever, and after high school, these cruel kids will be nothing. And I take her to counseling so that she can talk to someone about the hurt that she feels by her fellow students. And most importantly, I am my daughter's advocate. I am up at the school for every new incident forcing them to deal with it.

I also have a younger son and daughter in high school. They both are outgoing and do the typical teenager things. I have to stay on top of them to keep them out of trouble and to keep their grades from slipping. Are they bullied? No. Go figure.

Really?-1739510

Endless diatribe, from both sides. There should be some enforceable restrictions on the purchase of firearms,

There are plenty of restrictions. Go and try to buy a handgun. Even a 5 shot revolver.

Go on.... I dare ya.

I have, although not a 5 shot revolver (PT-92 and H&K .45 compact). I didn't have a problem at all. Background check, three day wait (you see, I wasn't in a hurry to run out an kill someone). If you had a problem...there must be a reason.

DCTex.. Ummm. Video games, music, etc. IS part of our society!!! And as such does deserve part of the blame for the violence we witness. We need to stop teaching our children violence. Otherwise, I agree with the rest of what you said. Right on!!

Like in Hawthorne's short story "Earth's Holocaust" there will never be an end unless the human heart decides to change - taking away guns or anything else will not matter.

Really?-1739510

I have, although not a 5 shot revolver (PT-92 and H&K .45 compact). I didn't have a problem at all. Background check, three day wait (you see, I wasn't in a hurry to run out an kill someone). If you had a problem...there must be a reason.

There ya go, there are your restrictions.

I had no problems whatsoever and I have several guns.

It's not the restriction that are a problem, it's the loop holes that allow felons and the mentally ill to buy them (ie, gun show purchases without background checks).
It's 30 round magazines with people justifying their sales as "home defense". If it takes you 30 rounds to stop an intruder, the problem isn't the number of rounds you have, it's your eyesight.

Ol_Doc

Seriously! All those restrictions are already in place. I've bought many a gun at a gun show and have been checked every time. The real problem is in personal sales. I can sell my gun to anybody without having to do anything. Once they tackle personal sales, a lot of the illegal gun sales will stop.

Ol Doc:

You keep yelling about "30 round magazines". Can you name me a make and model of any handgun sold in the US that comes with a 30 round magazine?

(sound of crickets chirping)

@ ProIndividual...I think you need to narrow your facts a bit and you'll find the numbers are more favorable than you thought in support of your argument. Of those 13,000 deaths I don't believe ALL were committed by legal gun owners. If you research further I believe you'll find MANY were carried out by people obtaining their gun illegally through theft or purchase of a stolen weapon.

I am a highly educated, successful business owner who, yes, owns MANY guns. Twice in my life I have had to draw my sidearm, both times in defense, and I thank God I never had to employ it. Let me state a fact of physics. This young man was DETERMINED to kill people. He carried a revolver with six rounds. He would easily have killed many more had he rammed his car in to a crowd in the parking lot before or after school. Sad fact: if a human being has it in their heart to kill, they WILL kill, and if a gun is not there dozens of other weapons are.

Sean, apparently you aren't subjected to rap every day. Video games, however, are teaching a BAD lesson today. Gone are the days of pacman. Now we have Grand Theft Auto where the player is not only allowed but encouraged to kill innocent citizens but law enforcement as well. Children are malleable. Tell then the world is flat or the sky pink enough times and they begin to believe it. Show them it's okay to kill, kill, kill enough, even in a video game, and pretty soon that, too, is okay.

I just love the morons that think their guns will protect their freedoms from our government. Wake up you fat slobs and take a look at what seal team 6 did. Even the weakest marine would wipe the floor with you as you tried to get on your segway because you're too fat to run away. Don't insult the U.S. military by thinking you stand a chance because you go shoot at the range twice a week with your buddies.

My condolences for all those involved in this tragedy.

Well, so far I've seen "blame the parents", "blame the student", "blame the gun", "blame gun laws", "blame the schools", "blame rap", "blame the video games", "blame the violent culture", "blame the bullying", "blame the internet"... Tell me, what does it say about our society when our first reaction to a tragedy isn't to say something like "my heartfelt condolences to the victims' families" but instead, to look for someone/something to blame for its occurrence? The truly sad part here is that many people that look for something to blame decide to pick something that confirms an already pre-held belief and then use this tragedy to further a particular goal. Congratulations, you're more similar to a politician than you realize.

Thank you Shulack for that important distinction. I too am an avid shooter, but I know damn well how many gun-nut idiots there are, including many in the NRA. To me it's this simple:

Guns don't kill people. People kill people. Guns just make it easy to kill lots of them quickly. Mass shootings in countries where guns are banned, are very rare. Those are indisputable facts.

I think guns are good for protecting against crime, but as for defending freedom, not so much. A civilian and his AR-15 are no match against trained infantry.

Please join the campaign to Spread the Word to End the Word. This year the Special Olympics designated March 7, 2012 as the official day to promote awareness...

Sean... these post above are not actually trying to find a solution to this particular problem. They're trying to be used to confirm a preconceived notion about something. People have a belief about something and decide to use a tragedy to confirm their belief. That's not finding a solution....

Well..I said it before on an article about the young girl who just got shot by her classmate last week, and I'll say it again here..

Guns..guns..guns..guns..let's go out and get some more guns. They never kill anyone do they? The citizens of this country need to take a time out and watch "Bowling for Columbine". It addresses the fact that every single country on the planet has THOUSANDS less deaths by guns each and every year. THOUSANDS. Other countries have violent movies, violent video games, and just as violent a history (if not more) than we do! So why are we slaughtering each other day after day after day. Enough is enough! This little "fad" of massacring classmates has GOT TO GO!

Sean, why don't ya blow it our your arse, kid? You can keep your violent games. I killed REAL PEOPLE in combat and trust me, it's nothing like a video game, and IT SUCKS. I carry a gun because of people like you, a young punk who sounds like a closet sociopath in the making, and fear not, if you DO go over the edge, and you DO run in to me, I would not hesitate. I don't carry a gun out of paranoia but because I HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN FORCED TO DEFEND MYSELF. I'm sure your music is SOOOO violent, but I doubt you were even alive when rap singers were advising their listeners to go out a shoot policemen and politicians and blow up government buildings (and no, I do not refer to ALL rap, some of it is damn good). I see your type every day. A young "man" who sounds a lot like you (self righteous and with no real life experience)tried to hammer my wife in the head with a rock a few weeks back. He didn't get far. Why don't you grow up, move out of moms basement, and go flip burgers. Then you can put up with people like YOU every day. A whiny brat.

May 5, 1940 ~ Dallas, Texas ~ Two youths shot and killed 38 students and seriously injured 3 teachers when they were suspended from school for using inappropriate language toward a teacher.

Thank you, Freedman! This kind of stuff goes on, it will go on as long as there are children and guns. If there were no guns something else would happen with these young people's ire, we can't know what that would be, obviously. I'm heartbroken for the young people and the community. What a sad event. I can't lay blame on anyone other than the young man who chose to shoot, but we must recognize the roles played by the parents, the bullies and our culture at large if we hope to stop such events in the future.

Why are people saying that this kid was bullied? No article I have read indicates that this attack was retaliation for being bullied. He didn't even go to this HS. Maybe he is just nuts.

They are saying he was bullied as a way of excusing his actions. From what I read he was a good student with friends. Sure he came from a troubled home. How many of us DIDN'T come from a troubled home? How many of us didn't deal with divorce or drugs or abuse or some such thing? It didn't make us murderers.

We need to stop blaming the guns. They didn't stand up and fire all by themselves. It takes a Human to use them.

If he's guilty, put him away for good..For everyones safety.

God bless and keep the families of his victims.

It is long proven medical fact that the teenage brain is largely incapable of calculating and truly understanding the risks involved in their behavior because the frontal cortex is not yet fully developed. This is even more particularly true of teenaged boys as their frontal cortex develops more slowly than that of girls. Combine this lack of physical development with the enormous rushes of hormones that a teenager is experiencing and it can easily create a firestorm of unreasonableness. This information in no way excuses the crime this boy committed but it does shed light on the clinical reasons why coming from a troubled home and/or being bullied might set of a chain reaction that ultimately leads to the commission of a heinous crime like this.

I do believe it is more a matter of being taught right from wrong, and what consequences are. Just the pure thought of resolving issues with guns is wrong.

My parents were divorced, my real dad was a violent drunk, my step dad told me every day until 2 weeks before he passed away that I was stupid and ugly. A principal in HS ( I went to an alternative HS for troubled teens) told me I'd never amount to anything in my life, and I was bullied by students, peers.

I never once thought about shooting anybody. Sure I wanted to beat them up cause they were hurting me, but I never once thought about ending them completely.

There is no excuse for this nonsensical behavior. I don't care if he's under developed, or 17. I say hang the little bastard and put him in an pauper's grave.

We need to stop blaming the guns. They didn't stand up and fire all by themselves. It takes a Human to use them.

If he's guilty, put him away for good..For everyones safety.

God bless and keep the families of his victims.

*sigh* Right.

Until the next time it happens, then it's exactly the same thing again:

"No one had any idea the shooter would do this."

"It's not the gun's fault."

"Let's kill the bastard."

"Pray for the victims and their families."

Does anyone see a pattern here????

What is it going to take to make people wake up to gun violence in America?

Maybe it's time we STARTED blaming the damn guns. NRA, what say you?

Lee,

little angry? Own a gun too? Put the 2 together and we have this! He was angry, and he had a gun.

Our society is very good at blaming when something like this happens but refuses to fund mental health services that could prevent it.

I think if someone reports your child as a bully your family should have to attend 2 weeks of school counselling.

These parents need to raise these kids and if they "come from a violent family" they shouldn't be allowed to make school a living hell for the rest of the kids who were raised correctly.

This kid spent 8 hours a day in a correctional school and went home every night to be "uncorrected"

"This is something that could never have been predicted. ......" That statement is a load of it. That is saying forget it folks, there is nothing you can do about it, throw up your hands, give up, it will continue to happen again and again and there isn't a damn thing you or any one can do about it.

That is kind of like when an oncologist says to his patient; " I hate to use this four letter word but you have cancer so you may as well go home, get your affairs in order, and then die." His patient in turn replies, " In the first place cancer has six letters, and are you saying you want to be paid today as in COD? I intend to go home, and beat this cancer, and live a long life as there are many things I still have to do before I kick the bucket, mail your bill..."

We may as well surrender if we continue to listen to those people who call themselves "Experts" and continue to hand out over the television their so-called "Psychological profiles." There is a pattern to this, there is a profile; one that remains true to form since the shootings in the early 1990s. I have found the people who work with Focus Adolescent Services focusas.com to be right on the mark for two decades now. I have followed them on Facebook and in their newsletters. They do not proclaim to be "Experts." However, if we applied their notes to this crazy dynamic, which always brings such tragedy, it may damn well begin to put a stop to this.

Never will I follow "what will be will be." We are smarter than that, we are a far better people than that. With a little more attention and action we can stop this from happening.

Bless the little children.

how about this who in the hell are you? white christian or illegal? wow talk about being stupid and a racist. it was a white christian, am sure he was kkk or a skin head, how does that sound to you?

What's it going to take to make intelligent people figure out a way to deal with the idiot population in America, like kaybeetoys?????

I don't own a gun, Lee.

Who's the idiot? It's your population--the gun nuts--who are the problem. YOU should figure out a way to deal with it. As long as you gun freaks take no responsibility, incidents like this will continue.

I own a gun, several in fact, but I'm very responsible with mine. I also have a 4 year old son. Everything in life is about personal responsibility. You choose your actions on a daily basis, you deal with the consequences on a daily basis as well.

Try not to lump all gun owners in one category and I won't lump all bleeding heart libby's in one category either.

No discipline in schools, no belief system allowed to show itself, liberal thinking that any kind of behavior is ok and no one is good or bad and this is what you get! When left without a higher power to believe in man has nothing to drive him but his animal instincts, this is what they bring out.

And the liberal media is already preparing his defense in thier headline "his violent family made him do it"., yet the same liberals would never ok simply taking kids away from such situations and putting them up for adoption when they are toddlers.

CaptBrngDwn - Bless you. And I hope that life is treating you much better now.

But hang the child? Really? Obviously, you were mentally tough and you overcame your obstacles. But don't you think that this kid has psychological problems? I highly doubt this simply is an I feel sorry for myself so I'm going to shoot everyone case.

Try not to lump all gun owners in one category and I won't lump all bleeding heart libby's in one category either.

I don't lump all gun owners into one category, CaptBrngDwn. Most gun owners are responsible people who handle their guns properly. That's how I was raised in a family where we had a cabinetful of guns.

My point is that whenever an incident like this happens (which is all too often), the first thing you'll hear from the gun lovers is "the gun didn't kill him/her/them". Had this boy not had access to a gun, two kids would still be alive. It gets worse every year in America.

Do you support the status quo? Or are you, as a responsible gun owner, ready and willing to find a solution to this craziness? The solution has got to come from the gun owners, can you not see that?

Instead of vilifying those who find the American violence-with-guns culture deplorable and want to do something about it, why not take a lead in making this an issue in your community? Your own son's life might be saved, not from a danger at home, but from a gun next door or at school.

Those of us who want handguns out of the hands of unstable people are almost afraid to speak up, when we have all those guns pointed at our heads.

Most of you are probably missing the most important issue here... It's not about guns and it's not about religion, it's about BULLYING. Some have said that this young man was bullied at school and it caused him to snap. Has anyone examined this assertion? Perhaps we should take a good look.

How many of us DIDN'T come from a troubled home? How many of us didn't deal with divorce or drugs or abuse or some such thing? It didn't make us murderers.

First off, congrats for not murdering anyone. Life achievement, really (literally). However, it seems to me that you are comparing apples to oranges. You are saying, "I am a sane person with a developed brain juxtaposing my unique life experience with this kid who is mentally unstable and has a different life experience but which I am assuming was similar to mine based on a vague news story." No one is excusing his actions because he was bullied. It is called looking for a motive.

We need to stop blaming the guns. They didn't stand up and fire all by themselves. It takes a Human to use them.

You know, pointing your finger at someone and yelling bang just doesn't have the same effect, so I would say that the gun had something to do with it.

"Good kids" don't spray a packed cafeteria with bullets.

My thoughts exactly.

Good kids don't shoot other kids in cold blood. They just don't. I could care less what he's been through, who his dad is, or who stole his girlfriend.

Definitely NOT a good kid.

We reap what we sow......hey, anyone need a cheap semi-automatic, or a sturdy AK47 ?

it's about BULLYING

Don't forget the epidempic of poor/lazy/self-indulgent parenting.

Bullying wouldn't be nearly as rampant if parents would do teach their kids from birth, not when they're 13 years old or 16 years old and pregnant, how to cope with challenging relationships and disappointment.

What would a 'belief system' do? Centuries of religions haven't stopped wars or murder, what a crock of baloney a 'belief system' is. There's no proof to that at all, other than it separates people more than it unites them. No need to villify 'Liberals', when we have all the religious conservatives villians we can handle, they are hatred mongers, that's their job and they do it well.

This shooter's emotions were ignored. He felt abused and he acted out. He is an individual

I have to agree with people saying that hands on parenting is a necessity, but it is not everything. I was brought up in a very loving household, with great parents who taught us the moral thing to do. However, both my brother and sister rebelled quite a bit. Perhaps I am more easy going, picked good friends, or maybe I just saw that my brother and sister made life harder for themselves, but my parents couldn't believe that I was so easy to raise. Consequently, while good parenting is a major boost, I think it also has a lot to do with the individual's personality and the influence of peers/siblings.

DCTex- Maybe hanging him is a knee jerk reaction, but I don't think he will fare any better in jail. Since he is a minor, he'll be sent to juvenile court and later on to an adult prison where he will learn more adult crimes. On top of that, he may not serve his entire sentence, when he does go to trial. This will more than likely be just a mere slap on the wrist for the kid, while the parents of the three dead kids will live for a long time without their kids.

And for what? his ex was with another guy? So what? His dad was abusive? So what?

What I faced was NOTHING compared to what some people have lived through and those people are stronger than I ever imagined. You don't see them shooting people or torturing others. They refuse (I assume) to inflict others with what they went through. That's real courage.

Kaybeetoys- I agree. Gun owners can be a little weird, but IMO it is the ones who say "the gun didn't kill them" blah blah blah are the ones you need to watch out for. Yes, the kid picked up the gun, which is a weapon designed specifically to do nothing BUT kill, and shot those kids. If not for him, none of this would be a topic.

People need to be pro-active with their kids. That means not relying solely on the teachers to raise their kids. Not letting social media or just the media in general be a babysitter or the only place to vent their feelings. Parents also need to realize they are not their kids friends, they are the parent and they need to act like one, don't be afraid to lay down the rules and what is acceptable bhavior and what is not.

I don't know how many more babies need to die before people realize that guns are dangerous and are not toys.

Yes, guns are dangerous....so are power tools, bricks, bottles, etc. I think we can all agree these are dangerous. I've said this many times on these kinds of posts, you cannot stop a determined person and laws won't protect you from them.

I just "love" the 2nd Amendment. Not!!

Chuck, seriously? Powertools, bricks, bottles, knive etc etc all have purposes other than the potential to do damage.

Guns are for one purpose and one purpose only. To kill.

No laws won't prevent violent acts, but there will be a punishment on the books to fit the crime. Even public execution doesn't deter someone who is determined. I'm not arguing that.

If you outlaw the guns, only outlaws will have guns.

Sean-336944 dont be rediculious!!!!! What you are forgetting is that the guns, video games, etc are not the killers, the people behind them are. They referred to video games because they "teach" the people the violence and power to commit violence. Your other remarks are just plain dumb and I won't comment on them. Unfortunately, the imbedded violence in the accepted aspects of our everyday lives goes unnoticed. I feel this allows for easier acceptance and lack of resistance towards violence. Some of whom have weaker consciences and more difficult family lives are susceptable to embracing this such as gang members do. Now give them a tool to commit to their closest friend. This is what we get.

As I say I don't believe it is the guns or any other "objects" fault. Many more deaths are caused from overeating every year than guns. (remember 2/3 of all gun deaths are suicides). We aren't blaming it on the fast food chains, and trying to shut them down. It's the people walking in to them that are to blame!

Well as usual, this conversation got completely derailed.

I'm not even going to bother getting in to the gun control crap. This isn't the topic for it. My point is that to call the shooter a "victim" is an insult to the three kids who were gunned down for no reason. He isn't a victim. Lots of people are bullied in high school, plenty of them probably get it worse than this kid. Yet they don't bring a gun and start killing random people. Save your sympathy for the families of the three dead kids.

Kaybee, you're half right, half wrong.

You can eliminate guns, and they will build a bomb. You can ban explosives components and they will pick up a knife. You can take away knives and they'll use a car. You can ban cars...get the idea? Violent people will BE violent people, be it with a gun or a stick.

On the other hand, if all EXISTING gun laws were enforced properly (and I abide with and agree with them all), this kind of senseless child-killing-child madness would be almost eliminated.

What REALLY needs to happen is people need to start being parents again and STOP trying to be their kids FRIENDS. They need to start enforcing consequences and teach right from wrong. Something went horribly wrong in this boys life, enough so he felt there was no alternative to his actions, and by the sound of his home life his parents were too busy abusing each other to teach him anything let alone consequences and conflict resolution.

May 18, 1927 ~ Bath Township, Michigan ~ Three bombings killed 38 elementary school children, two teachers, four other adults and the bomber himself; at least 58 people were injured. Most of the victims were children in the second to sixth grades (7–14 years of age) attending the Bath Consolidated School. The bomber was school board treasurer Andrew Kehoe, 55, who was ostensibly enraged about a property tax levied to fund the construction of the school building. He blamed the additional tax for financial hardships which led to foreclosure proceedings against his farm.

Bombs don't kill people...it's the explosion. Just goes to show..where there's a will there's a way. Was this guy a member of the NBA...National Bomb Association? I thought not. It's ironic that I read a newspaper headline once about a shooting and on the same page in small text was another story about a guy they had just arrested for 14 murders.....with a knife. Wish I had kept that one.

March 2002 ~ When U.S. warplanes strafed [with AC-130 gunships] the farming village of Chowkar-Karez, 25 miles north of Kandahar on October 22-23rd, killing at least 93 civilians, a Pentagon official said, "the people there are dead because we wanted them dead." The reason? They sympathized with the Taliban. When asked about the Chowkar incident, Donald Rumsfeld replied, "I cannot deal with that particular village."

But he was trying to overcome all that and couldn't do it. That's why the school was ignoring warnings signs because he wasn't a "real problem".

The town and county ignored the domestic violence going on in the home. All this "he was one of our own" sh@t". The town turned their back on this family hoping they would go away. Sheriff department probably told the family to deal with it themselves. Rural services are non-existent for domestic violence because it so acceptable in rural areas and makes the area look desirable to have a low violence record.

Domestic violence creates these issues!!!

Ozzi, The shooter did not go to the HS where he shot the kids. So Chardon HS didn't ignore warning signs.

JAndrew, did you NEVER see violence when you growing up? Never see drug or alcohol abuse? Never had anything bad happen to you? If not then you were blessed. Most of us have to some degree or another.

We need to stop blaming others for the things we do. It is US that makes those decisions.

Not true, JAndrew. "Good" kids do bad things all the time. Some do worse things than others. Their brains are not yet developed and they really are not physically capable of understanding the risks they undertake. Often times its the "good" kid who more quickly and/or easily comes to a situation that they cannot deal with and acts out more violently as a result of their fear and uncertainty. Obviously this is not an excuse for the crime this child committed but definitely a piece of information to take into account when considering all of the rest and formulating an opinion.

AngieS,

I'm not so sure that is an excuse, but I do know you can teach a 5-year old whats right and whats wrong. You can teach a dog right from wrong. Consequence and punishment, not making excuses, is what works. Parents today want to be their kids friends and give them everything they want; that can't work well, IMHO.

Justthefax

You are right about a lot of parents, but the school are also at fault. All the bull about no grades like the old days, makes some feel bad. Everyone gets a trophy in a game. Liberal BS has destroyed competition to make working for something worthwhile, no bad feelings for screw ups who just don't try or who cannot be controlled. In the good ol days, not that long ago, their was a Dean of Students in schools that no one wanted to go see because he would call the parent who would come straighten out that kid. Not anymore, everyone seems to be the "my baby wouldn't do that" kind of bllind parent-buddy. Recognizing faults and bad behavior needing correcting is one of the main parents duties. Must be too much trouble for a lot of people who want kids to show off but don't want to spend time really raising them. And the liberal, keep kids with thier parents social working system puts kids back in bad homes over and over and over instead of taking a step right off the bat and saving the kid.

Based on what I read... the shooter was a fellow student (not sure if he attended this high school, but might have been transported from this school to another school), and yes, it has been said that he was bullied.

finally someone else who can read and understand what they have read

Janine, while I agree that we must take responsibility for our own actions, our actions can be influenced by external stimuli. Some people deal with stress better than others. Why some people lash out while others "lash in" or still others overcome it is not yet understood. It is, therefore, a logical fallacy to superimpose our own experience on everyone else. This kid was one that snapped. During the teen years, the prefrontal cortex is still developing. This is the area that deals with right and wrong, consequences for actions, future planning, and social interaction. I obviously can't say for sure, but maybe his was underdeveloped. You never know. He will answer for his actions, as he should, but people are different and react to things differently. Thus, you cannot say that just because a majority of people think one way, it must be so for everyone.

Stop blaming everyone and everything but the killer. This is so typical in today's "progressive" society where we worry too much about hurting someone's "self esteem". A principal, teacher, friend, citizen, or cop can hardly say "boo" to a bad kid without getting fired, censured, arrested, etc., these days. We did not have the extent of this type of problem 40 years ago when discipline was allowable and certain in school. And guess what - we had plenty of guns back then as well.

of course they ignored some things. y did they let him even go into the school. they barely let me in schools. i have young kids n school

My deepest sympathy to the families of those wounded and killed. I cannot imagine the depth of pain inside this young man that would prompt him to take the lives of those around him. Perhaps he was bullied, perhaps he was just different, either way if we would change our foolish and destructive social hierachy and begin to appreciate the gifts and beauty of each individual, no one would be shot- ever. We create our problems. To solve problems, one must do so at the source. The source of all these killings is individuals who have no hope or joy in their lives. They are bullied or are different. If each person felt important and valuable, this would not happen.

i agree 100%. we will be debating 100 years from now about guns. we need to help kids deal with pressures, and ways to stop this from happening.

...a terrible situation. condolences to all the families.

weusall,

Agreed. Blessing's to all involved.

I totally agree with weusall. Ours hearts should be going out to all the families in Chardin, Ohio.

Cincytoy, you are right on the mark.

It is such a sad thing to see someone, whose life has not even begun, ruin his chances of ever having a prosperous lifetime. He has demolished his own life and taken away the lives of two others, who also never even began to live. I'm sorry for everyone this tragedy has touched.

Well said Ozzi!

BULLY.

I'm so tired of hearing about "bullying" as somehow an excuse for murder. I do not condone "bullying" behavior but maybe aside from teaching our young people to be respectful, tolerant, considerate and kind, we need to teach our young people to grow a thicker skin! The world is full of bully's from the top down! Always has been, always will be. Stop the victim crap and toughen up. Everyone experiences "sh**t" in their lives.

seriously, what good will condolences do on this page ... those poor kids are dead, and the lack on Gun Control in this country (along w/"f"'d up parents) contributed to this happening.

I haven't been able to read every comment thoroughly, so excuse me if this has been said -- this boy's dad tried to KILL someone among other crimes and received only 5 years PROBATION. There are MANY people to blame for contributing to this young man's mental problems which he must have. Bottom line, he needs to serve time as he did the crime. But how many idiots including a judge apparently helped shape this boy's life into the mess it is now? Further, the boy may have been passed some bad brain genetics from dad and/or mom. People who knew him SHOULD have known he was at risk. Why wouldn't he be? He should have been in counseling. I wonder if he was or not.

If most kids who come from bad family situations don't kill someone, it doesnt mean they are "just fine". We would not have a 50% divorce rate if most of us were turning out "just fine". There are a lot of damaged kids out there who need more tough love and less junk. There WERE warning signs that this kid needed help. But because he wasn't the one bullying other kids and/or breaking the law, the signs seem to have been ignored.

The more violence they see in their everyday life (between family members, friends and the MEDIA) makes them much more likely to lash out in an extreme way. Why are we(as human beings) not getting this very simple concept?

I'm sorry you went through all that. It must have been awful for you. I hope things are better now.

TY Ike Warren, Yes they are, with many years of counseling. I am 58 yrs old now, but God, when I remember, oh, it still hurts and I think about how much my life would have been different without the bullies. Oh they made my life in school miserable and also my self esteem in life. But, hey life goes on, I have children and grandchildren and family I am proud of. Peace. Thank you.

I can sympathize with you Jan; I was bullied in school too and it was just by the grace of God that I never struck out violently; it certainly wasn't because I was better than anyone else.

I was bullied throughout school and feel much the same way as you. I DID have access to a gun. Several in fact. It never even entered my mind to use one.

Not everybody that got bullied will harbor thoughts of killing- it takes a "special" person. Life is tough sometimes, and not always fair. Lots of people come from violent families, that does not necessarily have to mean they have to become violent.

Exactly Jan. Unless you were the one doing the bullying, few of us haven't been bullied at some time during our school years. Did that make us murderers? Did that make us Psychopaths? NO.

That boy MADE the decision to do what he did. No one else. Just him. He must face the responsibility for his actions.

My heart goes out to the family and friends of the victims. They deserve justice.

And the more publicity these shootings get, the more they will occur. Monkey see, monkey do. Especially kids, although if he's old enough to drive, I wouldn't consider him a kid who doesn't full well know the gravity of his actions. I say fry or inject a few of the little whackos, and watch how these type of events lessen in frequency. These punks do it primarily for attention, knowing full well that they will not be treated as adults when punishment time rolls around. Bullying is part of life. We get bullied every day by the government when it says "give us x amount of your earnings or we'll take whatever you own and/or put you in prison". Maybe we should tax kids and let their anger be directed at real bullies. Might solve two problems....

I was bullied and teased at school, too, mainly because I was overweight and didn't wear the best of clothes. I was also a bit geeky, and at that time, being a geeky girl basically meant it was open season.

These two guys - football jocks and BMOCs - threw little bits of gum in my hair all through tenth grade English. I told the teacher about it multiple times and she did NOTHING! She was an older teacher and thought if she ignored the problem, it would go away. I finally got tired of these two morons throwing gum in my hair during class, so I had my parents call the assistant principal of our school. He called me down to his office one day and the two perps were sitting there. He said that they had something to say to me and they both apologized and said they would never throw gum in my hair again. For their detention, they had to spend an entire Saturday picking up every scrap of gum wrappers and gum up off the grounds of the school building. They never bothered me again! At least back in the late 70s when this happened, school administrators were allowed to use creative discipline like that to get the point across. I don't know what they would do nowadays.

They don't do anything now. At least, they never did for me. The dean would talk to the offenders, tell them not to do it again, and 5 minutes after the kids left the dean's office, they'd be at it again this time with more of their friends doing the bullying.

Whoever said high school was the best time of your life was clearly delusional.

I am so sorry that you, too, had to go through bullying in school. After this shooting happened, I was telling my daughter about how one day after being bullied by one group of girls since Freshman year, at the beginning of my Junior year, they started it all over again. I mean it was the first week. I was already pretty messed up because I was being sexually/physically/verbally abused by my stepfather at home. I just exploded when they went after me in the girl's bathroom. When I grabbed the main girl I threw her so hard against the wall that it broke the mirror on the wall and I messed her up pretty good. Of course, I was the one who got in trouble. The school did nothing to protect me from the harassment. Back to the point of this, I said to my daughter that there were many times that I wish these girls were dead (and many guys that bullied me) but I just hung on to the fact that one day I knew that I would get out of there and I was going to show them by having a great life. When I went back to my 10-year class reunion most of the pretty, popular girls were fat and ugly and had a bunch of kids. I was living in LA, had a great job, was singing in a band and doing recording work, modeling, and having just a plain, good time. So, I just wish that this kid had a hung in there a little longer. The article said that he was doubling up on classes, trying to graduate sooner (just like I did), but sadly it seems he just couldn't hang on.

I had one bully in hs. I was a freshman on the wrestling and football team and he was a junior soccer player... idiot. One day during class he had the misfortune of coming into the bathroom that i was in talking the same old bull. I walked out and he was wheeled out. Never once had a problem after that, matter of fact i made a few friends that wanted to shake my hand because he did the same to them. Stand up for yourselves people and if you cant then change your life, people only do to you what you let them. To many sheep and not enough wolves in this country.

Patience is my weapon of choice.

As in so many schools though it is based on family reputation. I know the school where my children went was a very small school. Most of the teachers had children there and no matter what these deviants did it was always over looked.

Bullied?? He didn't even go to the school. Are we making excuses now?

R. Scalzo: Just because 'he didn't even go to the school.' doesn't mean he wasn't bullied by the students there. BUT if you read the article you will see one of the boys was dating the suspects previous girlfriend. THAT gives them a connection. There are no excuses in life the makes what happened right. Reality suggests however that you don't have to be a rocket scientist to make the connection from him to the boys at the table.

Because if someone goes to one school they could never bully someone from another school? Deep thinking there. Waiting for the facts.

Zapper how about teaching your grandchild to defend himself/herself. What are you going to do when your grandchild is bullied and you aren't around? Kids that are being bullied need to learn how to stand up for themselves in a proactive, positive way and solve problems just as much as kids need to stop doing the bullying.

There has always been bullying...is no one questioning why so many kids are choosing guns to hurt or kill people?? The current media is so full of violence it is disgusting and shame on parents for not keeping a tighter reign on what kids watch! Anyone that believes that it's okay for kids to be watching the garbage they watch is naive. Little children are watching pg-13 and rated R movies like it's no big deal. Those movies are FILLEd with violence so are the tv shows yet somehow we think that children's brains are okay to handle this kind of viewing. The tv shows or movies of old were cowboy movies with some shootout in the middle of town. No blood no gore shown, just the way of the untamed West... The movies now are filled with swearing, violence, sexual perversion and anger. Why in the world do we think that our youth (when provoked or otherwise) are going to react in such violent ways when we allow them to see that exhibited in everything they watch? Heartbreaking really...

mambatam: My grandson is handicapped. He has difficulty functioning on several levels. He is quite bright, but it's difficult for him to defend himself due to his handicaps. Not all is as it might seem. But if your family member was called a "retard," "fag," "gimp," "loser," (and many other more despicable terms that can't be listed on a public forum), because he has difficulty walking and talking, I'm sure you would just tell him to suck it up, too. I won't mention the physical abuse of punching, spitting, kicking, etc., because these "little darlings" know they can run away and get away from him. I, for one, don't allow such behaviors in my presence, from anyone, for anyone. For some, picking on the weaker kids, who are unable to defend themselves, is just fun and games. I, on the other hand, have a very protective streak. Someday, what it might come down to is a visit to the parents of these bullies, with a lawsuit of discrimination. Violence, of course, is optional, as is proven by the bullies themselves.

Diana---If you see there in the article this is not a fact that he targeted someone that was seeing his former girlfriend! It was an assumption by someone...get your facts straight! OH yeah, that's right, there are no facts except one in this article...2 children are dead because of an evil choice by one young man.

It is indeed a very fine line. Those that are aware of this fact understand themselves enough to realize when they are near the danger zone, and have a better chance of diverting it. People who don't understand this are often the ones who snap, and then express disbelief later at their own actions. Or express disbelief that someone they know could have killed someone else they know. Or dont survive being a victim of someone who snaps, therefore cant express disbelief in anything. Also apeaking from experience, unfortunately.

We all possess the knowledge of good and the knowledge of evil and there is no way to purge ourselves of it. We must understand ourselves and draw lines in the sand and say this line I will not cross. When the day of evil comes we can stand against it.

I am so thankful my husband and I have decided that I will homeschool our children. What a blessing it will be to have that one on one time with them to give them more of a solid foundation of what "good" looks like. Will I be able to protect them from every bad thing in this life...NO! What I can do is teach them right from wrong, I can make their exposure to today's media less prominent in their life, I can teach them skills that the public school will not teach and I can do all of this in a loving caring environment. Do I want to raise my children in a "bubble" absolutely not. I want to raise them to be loving, giving, considerate, compassionate adults that want to contribute to this world in a positive way. Will this be HARD work? YES! That is what parenting is...it's HARD! If you dont' have difficulties in parenting, then there is something wrong. Is there joy in parenting? Absolutely! I think parenting is the most frustrating and fulfilling job all at the same time. Will my children turn out perfect ? NO! No one is perfect. Will my children learn to have a healthy respect for people and love people for who they are not what they do? I hope and pray that that will be true of them. I don't care what my children do as their ultimate occuptaion, what I do care about is that they grow up to love the Lord and want to serve others and do the right thing. Can you imagine what our world would be like if all people would share the common goal of caring for one another? Well, it would be heaven on earth I guess.

You are blessed to be able to homeschool your children. Unfortunately, a lot of us parents have to take our chances with sending our children to a school (public and private). I on the other hand have the task of teaching my child how to live in the real world with real-life examples of how to live out what the Bible says, "we are in the world, but not part of the world's ways" (to paraphrase).

Teens are fully capable of circumventing ANY safeguards place by parents on guns or pretty much anything else (how many kids sneak out in the middle of the night?). If he felt strongly enough, he could go buy a weapon on the streets. The gvmt cant keep dope from being sold to kids, what makes you think they can stop guns? That's like saying keep them off of porn sites - if you have internet, yes your teens have visited porn sites. If you dont have internet, they have done it at a friends house, or at a Mcdonalds (free internet) or a library.

Bottom line, sad situation, but you can't punish parents for the actions of their children. How many are willing to go to jail if your kid takes some booze and gets drunk?

Too many parents think they can trust their kids to not touch their guns. Think again. There are safeguards that can keep them out of hands of your kids. It may take some thought and money but it can be done.

See personally I don't own guns for the same reason I don't own a pit bull...why take unnecessary chances? If I don't have the dog, I don't have to worry about it harming one of my kids...People buy the guns, dogs, wild animals...whatever...then say oh darn it turned out bad. Don't open up the can of worms, there are enough situations out of your control to worry about.

You don't own guns or pit bulls, thats your choice. I didn't have television in my house while the kids were little. We all make choices but how far do you carry it. Do you remove all poisonous substances from your home? Do you move to an area with no swimming pools, lakes or rivers?(much more dangerous than guns or pit bulls, by the way)? Do you refuse to allow your child to ride in a motor vehicle?

Floridaguy-1203070, Well said. For that matter, dont allow your kids to play in their own front yard, a crazy neighbor may mow them down with their car. Happened in FL. Parents that teach their kids about the dangers of the world around them, and how to recognize them, avoid them if possible but deal with them if necessary, are doing them a greater service than those who only shelter and deny reality, thus leaving their kids poorly equipped or even tempted by those very things that were deemed "off limits" out of curiosity.

Colleen-let's just keep our kids in a bubble and no contact with the outside world. at least they'll be safe!! why take chances?

Some people just don't like guns and are afraid of them. Colleen has a good point, children shouldn't have access to them because they are dangerous. The whole circumstance is just sad and now everyone gets to go on a male bashing witch-hunt. I think a sophomore in H.S. is old enough to know better than to bring a gun to school and shoot kids with it. Unless it can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that his parents helped conspire to shoot kids at school, they should be left to deal with their grief and remorse. We still don't know the whole story. It is kind of dumb to jump to emotional conclusions and hand out sentences to people we don't know for things we didn't witness.

Colleen you may want to remove all cutlery out of the kitchen also. I mean if a kid wants to cause harm a butcher knife could be the answer.

For all of you that are chastising Colleen for keeping certain things away from a child in order to keep them out of harms way: It is true children need to be taught the stove burns but you don't need to let them catch on fire or get scalded to prove the point. Pit Bulls require special care and training. If a person is not equipped to handle it or would rather train their children only then they have made a good decision. Colleen doesn't seem like the kind of person that wants to put her children in a bubble. To WeAllHaveOpinions: If the child is a 2 year old then you may need to at least keep the cutlery out of their way until they are old enough to learn about it. The point is: Colleen is at least thinking about when and how to teach. The rest of you are a) being smart alecks and b) obviously you believe in learning by experiencing fire, poison, guns, etc. Personally, I don't think that is the way to teach anyone anything. THAT is what happened here and there are two dead students. How much did our suspect learn from this? Not a good choice for sure but nonetheless it was a learning experience. Kudos to your way of thinking.

And the two dead students wasn't killed by a child. This boy was 17 you could hide whatever you wanted, he was set out to do this.

Some of you are taking all blame away from the parents...is that an easy way for you to have to take less responsibility when raising your children? Yes, children and adults make their own decisions, that is why as parents we need to be teaching them from the time they are babies how to make right ones. I think the parents of today think children can raise themselves! It is horrifying what parents allow their children to do on their own. Children decide what they watch, wear,say(swearing etc.) , where they go, how late they stay up, what they eat (junk) without any parent or guardian guiding them, the majority will not make right choices. Somehow people don't understand this very simple concept. Children don't need another friend, they need parents that are not afraid to parent.

Did I say that he was a young child? My point is this, what are we doing before they get to be 17? What are we doing as parents to instill the best possible values in our children so that they don't grow up to make the decision this young man did? (What are you called before you are an adult...a child)

So Colleen we're supposed to hide everything that's dangerous. We can hide murderors, knives,guns,bats,cars,the stove,matches,fire, kerosense, anything that can fall on your head. Next let's wrap everyone in bubble wrap!

No one likes a bully Jan, but there have always been bullies and always will be. Instead of focusing on the bully I think we need to focus on empowering our young people with the skills necessary to deal with a bully. Obviously skills that the murderer in this latest school shooting (or any school shooting for that matter) did not have.

Violence is the most effective way to handle bullies. A good ass whoopin' usually teaches more respect than anything the school could do. I'm not saying kill anyone, but do something to defend yourself. Use an equallizer if you have to (probably not a gun). If you end up killing someone, then you might have gone too far.

D dirty dog, I really hope that you do not have children... you sound like a person that was abused and I am sorry for that. Please get help for your anger issue beofre you hurt someone.

Too late, I've already hurt some that tried to bully. I've not been abused because I wouldn't stand for it. I do have sons. While you're raising pacifists and protecting them from the world, my sons took my advice and kick bully ass and never have a problem with them again. Ever. Are you self righteous? Yes. Are your kids home schooled freaks? Maybe, if you continue to raise them. Are you an idiot? Absolutely. Go back to answering questions nobody asked.

I got off the topic of the story. Sorry folks. Condolences to the families including the shooters.

Oh really you do Fiesty1? Who will pay for this ginormous policing and counseling effort? At what point should child surveillance begin in the home? Where will this registry of american citizens be stored and what liberties will they lose for being on it? Who will have access to it? Should employers and schools discriminate against children and parents for being in that system? What you are proposing is knee jerk communism and a police state. I am sure the government would be more than happy to help you implement your social agenda, as there seems to be no shortage of pajama wearing socialists in this country. (sarcasm)

No offense but your damn right i do! It would be far cheaper to pay for couseling and make sure kids are learning to cope than it is to pay for keeping them locked up when they have psychotic breaks! This is a common sensical thing that has nothing to do with politics so do not go there this is for the benifit of a person! All people have value one way or another who are you to choose who should get it based on anything! I would rather pay taxes to make sure kids get help than i would to have them locked up for life where there really is no rehabilitation programs. Doing something about it before something bad happens is the key. If there is known violence in a home your damn skippy kids should be required to get counseling! Same with drug abuse as far as i am concerned. You wanna keep paying to lock them up be my guest but i prefer to give them a chance first! Everyone should have acess to mental health unfortunatly that is not the case or they are prevented from seeking help because of a dominating person in their life. Just so you know it really ticks me off when people make comments and turn it into something it is not! It is no wonder we have so many issues when we are so quick to just lock them all up and ignor them, so many cry out for help and never get it its sad and its wrong.

Dude, You are going to step in it if start the nature-nurture discussion. Hundreds of years of research on the topic prove one thing and one thing only: nobody knows whether nature or nurture wins in the end. Period. So, while I am sympathetic to your point of view, if thousands of studies by hundreds and hundreds of professional researchers has not solved this issue, yours is only your opinion, which of course you have a right to hold. However, the science is much less clear.

My thinking is that we do have some people born with or who evolve into (during natural chemical changes everyone experiences) people with chemical imbalances in their brains. Hopefully, over the next few hundred years or so, we will learn enough about how brain chemistry influences behavior to be able to diagnose and treat the clear cases with the appropriate medication to reverse the chemical imbalances that naturally occur. As for the nurture parts, well, a lot of people mention parenting in these discussions. It is clearly a major element in this type of behavior, but children from all kinds of backgrounds commit violent acts; check out the Menendez brothers for an interesting contrast. This is way too complex a topic to be closed in a short post, but having this discussion is very important, especially if it is kept on a mature level devoid of childish name-calling, etc.

So you are arguing that it is nature not nurture that produces the behavior of people? Or at the least nature has a bigger infulence over a person's behavior than nurture?

Let the poop storm commence!

IMO, Nature AND nurture both play equal parts in shaping a person's life. But I also firmly believe that it is a person's choices that win in the end.

Florida guy, if you will note this nation has gone downhill morally ever since the Bible was no longer taught in schools, public prayer was taken from schools and parents stopped teaching their kids right from wrong and allow them to watch the garbage that is on our televisions, internet and movie screens and listen to the filth that is played over the radio. Please do not try to take responsibility off yourself and others by saying that children are just "born that way"... Yes, we are ALL born sinful but we make our own choices...we can choose to make good choices or bad ones but usually we will not make good ones without proper upbringing (there are exceptions to that). There are things we must do as parents to give our children the best possible start to this life.

FLorida guy you contradicted yourself in your own post....

Maybe because there is not so much of it, racist!

White on white violence stories have the original story, then the follow up story, then the follow up to the follow up story.

Black on black violence stories have one quick story with sketchy details.....that's it.

White on white violence stories have hundreds of sympathetic comment posts with suggestions of how to avert another tragedy.

Black on black violence stories have a few dozen comments that basically echo "Oh well, another day in the hood"....with only slight variances...........

Why?

LOL! I'm the racist for pointing it out?....What color do you think I am?

You're not serious, chuckler, are you? That's because the media is white owned and will never report the real truth. I'm surprised they've been recently reporting on how many white child molesters and child murderers there are in our society. The US will never have the truth told.

I think you may be right, Desperately Seeking the Truth......

I'm sorry, maybe I am the racist, because when you do read about black gang violence, it does seem like another day in the hood.

Is it because of the way the story is covered?

I get what you're saying, but if a black student armed him/herself and went into his/her school and opened fire, killing people, it'd make the news. I have no doubt.

I wasn't aware they have identified the "Race" of all the victims. Have they? How do you know they were all white?

I don't give a s#$t about race. All the blood is red. It always was. It always will be. Bloodshed of this nature is inexcusable and can not be explained away by "he had a bad home" or "he was teased" or all the other crap posted above. This human being turned into a violent predator. That is the story here and there is no WHY. There is no reason. Only tragedy and grief and spilled blood.

Photos Jon PHOTOS!!!!!!!!!!!! DUH????

We're going to see a lot more of this. It will not be so much due to the easy availability of guns but, the level of anger that has been generated in this country from several sources including the sensationlistic and violent media of all types, loss of spiritual direction which doesn't have to include religion, a society that measures your worth according to what you have not what you do, exposure to high levels of toxins in our environment including presription and non-presription drugs and, a future whose job and career outlooks are appearing more bleak by the day.

Most of all, in my opinion as a former high school teacher, it will be due to confusion and frustration among young men regarding their roles and future in a society where they are marginalized and exposed to rampant sexism. As one former feminist has written, in our nation's shools, being male is now considered a disorder, something to be cured. Yeah, we're going to see more of this. A lot more.

I've always found most kids to be pretty logical - society says its OK to kill 1.5 million babies every year by abortion; they watch TV and movies where the hero kills the bad guys by the ton; play video games and kill hundreds in a vitual world; watch news as the US-drones kill enemies (including nearby innocents and women & children) from afar with impunity. What's the real value that society places on a human life? Not very much I think.

Floridaguy,

Abortion? Really? You had to throw THAT into it?

the point being justthefax that when you devalue life at any level you send a very loud message...floridaguy is 100%

Dont worry justhefax, abortion had to be tossed in. Obama will be blamed next for this kid personally I have no doubt. It wouldn't be a real comment section otherwise.

Don't forget, God will HAVE to be debated and gays will also be thrown in here. Oh and Jews too, we already have the "if this was black on black" crap.

Stop producing them....DUH!

Elk: "We parents"....? Who are you speaking about? And sometimes there is just old-fashioned "evil" in a person. Look, I was raised in an EXTREMELY violent, dysfunctional "family", yet if I went out right now and shot dead 3 innocent people, I would be given the death penalty. Why? If the cause of my killing those 3 people pointed to my horrific childhood, why would I be help more responsible than a 17 year old? Shouldn't I be held as a "strong" person because I held out so long before killing someone as a result of my horrific childhood?

Let us STOP with these ridiculous excuses - he had a bad childhood, oh Boo Hoo. And PLEASE stop the sappy "We have failed our children"...

In other areas of this country there are kids his age caring for their siblings because the mom is drunk and the dad left the family. I have NO sympathy for this guy. Try him and convict him for three murder charges.

If he doesn't get the death penalty (which he should), then he should spend the rest of his natural life in prison, NO CHANCE OF PAROLE, and then after he has died, leave his body in the cell one more day.

If it was "guns for All" as you put it, maybe we wouldn't have this problem...

You mean like the good old days of the wild West? One thing is for damn sure, he couldn't have been able to do the damage he did with a knive or any other weapon. Drop your gun and step away from the horse. If I recall well, everybody was armed in the Battle for Stalingrad and it became the most bloodied ever. Now, let me give you a reason to pause with that baloney that everybody should have a gun. Remember the tragedy in Tucson, AZ? One of the responders came to see what was going on and he almost made a tragedy worse. He was going to shoot someone he tought was the gunman, but he waited and then realize how close he was to making his biggest mistake in his life. He would have killed an innocent person and from then on, only God really knows how would have ended. Remember the adage: S*hit happens, well with guns it's thousands times worse.

So black kids that get shot aren't babies?

Really?

When did a school with black children get shot up by a bully?

That is my question also Jan.

http://yourblackworld.net/2012/02/black-news/four-kids-shot-at-cleveland-ohio-high-school/

so it happens.......it's just not reported on by major media outlets......

....and since when is a recluse considered a bully?

Since the blacks have their own tv channel dedicated you know "BET" maybe they should cover all the black killings.

Jan, there was one last year or the year before - a white student that was one of very few at an alternative school with mostly black students. He had been bullied and harassed, and someone who hit him in the hallway was the first person that was shot that day.

Chuckler, I think you're getting your answer with the comments from the thread - the question from Jan ("when did a school with black children get shot up by a bully") implies that it is more deplorable when white kids get gunned down in a school compared to black kids being gunned down everywhere else except a school. Innocent kids being gunned down, any kid, anywhere, should be afforded the same compassion and attention. (I won't even begin to discuss WeAll's comment).

I am so sick of these "right to guns" people - honestly do you think that the "Founding Fathers" KNEW that to "bear arms" would mean assault rifles, powerful handguns, etc.? Of course not! How long do you think it took to load a musket?? The Founding Fathers were also slave owners! Hello! Does that mean that we should also own slaves?? They did not believe women should vote or own property. Geez, THINK, people!

TO Sharon.........Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah.....give me a break!

He didn't go to this school. When did everyone forget the art of reading?

There are bullies in alternative schools as well - see my post to Jan above.

I went to "alternative school" in high school (not for behavioral reasons) It was WAY better than the "mainstream" high school, much smaller classes, better teachers, I learned more in one year there than I did the years before, so much so that I graduated a year early with honors.

If I still lived in CA, I would insist my daughter go there now.

Okay, Mark... then the shootings would occur at the alternative schools.

Mark probably thinks that kids in alternative schools are "bad kids" anyways so he probably doesn't care if they get shot up. Just let the "good kids" live right?

What a crock of bull feces

Amen

oh, please. it's so easy to blame "The devil" for what people do. Takes all the responsibility off of society and individuals.

"Don't train your children to shoot guns"??? and I suppose the best way to keep your children from drowning would be not to teach them to swim? And I'm not sure there were any 'winners'.

Jan that post by far is the most stupid of all the post, from beginning to end.

No way, there are far more stupid posts on here (although I agree........not teaching kids to shoot is not the answer).