It's easy to sneak alot of weapons into any place that does not have metal detectors at the entrances, whether the state says it okay or not.

bob: Right, this would never happen in LA, where guns aren't allowed?

Hey Bob...while I repect your attempt to blame the gun and not the crook.... do you think for a minute that these shooters wouldnt have carried a gun if the law had been different? Laws dont stop criminals.

Hey Bob, sounds to me like AZ should have banned rap music in bars.

I blame the person that pulled the trigger.

leroy, I'm a liberal and even I would go as far as to say someone with ANY criminal record has a right to own a gun and defend himself. I'd stop it before assault weapons...at the very least EVERYONE should have the right to own a handgun provided that they are 18 years of age or older.

I firmly believe that guns are nearly a necessity in the world today...too many gun regulations is a bad thing.

Another article describes the shooters as both "black men in dark clothing".

Apparently you were the first!!!

Notice the part where they said outside the club. I'm two miles away from this club. This club doesn't allow weapons inside.

@Bob n LA* Where does it say anyone was shoot or produced a weapon inside the bar? I take my gun everywhere, bars, banks, post office etc. I haven't shot anyone. I drive my car into crowded areas yet refrain from purposely running over A holes that taunt me to do so. I carry a very very sharp knife on my person at all times, I haven't cut or killed anyone.... Why do you assume the person or persons responsible for the shooting had that gun legally? They are criminals.....enforce the laws to the fullest extent. These people will get away easy because of prison over crowding. Don't preach about gun laws until you have something intelligent to offer. Did the report say they were Black or White gang bangers? Maybe just a jealous boyfriend, maybe the guy(s) just don't like rap music.....Where does it say they were even at the club for the concert. That parking lot may just have been a meeting place for a showdown. You don't know.....It's people like you that would give away your freedoms and mine for a little perceived security...you don't deserve either......grow up.

It has to be the heat. All the idiots in the ME are constantly trying to kill each other over stupid sh*t, and it seems like we see the same kind of crap in many of our southern states.

I agree mo nig. We cannot keep giving away our freedoms because other people are not responsible and choose to break the law. Plus, criminals will continue to break the law while we give up our freedom. The next step could be no more clubs, then no more concerts, no more gatherings, etc. In my mind, we give an inch and we loose a mile.

For all those who can't understand how such a stupid law could only exist in the Wild West, take a look at many other states. Lets start with Vermont. One of the lowest states, if not the lowest, for crime. They had the Carry laws in place long before AZ. I am thinking they are not a wild west state. The other fact most negative writers above state is that you can carry guns in bars and drink. No, you can not legally. You can not have any alcohol. Now, for all you morons who say, How is the law going to stop idiots from having a drink when they have a gun on them..........! It is not. They were drinking in the bars with guns on them for many years before the law was passed, as in most other states. The gun law only effects the action of law abiding individuals. But you liberals can't understand this.

Bob n LA

Arizona has a law allowing people to carry weapons into a bar. the results became evident tonight of what can happen. Race, and musical preference aren't the issue here- stupid laws are.

you asked for it and got it. But then Az. politizied this, not me.

First off the shooting occurred OUTSIDE the bar. You don't even know where the gun(s) was prior to the incident, or where the suspects came from.

NEWSWINNER101, stated, leroy, I'm a liberal and even I would go as far as to say someone with ANY criminal record has a right to own a gun and defend himself. I'd stop it before assault weapons.

Just curious, don't you think the handguns used in the parking lot shootings were assault weapons? Don't let the left wing press influence your thinking / opinion so much. I have a few AR 15s and they are rifles and have never assaulted anyone.

leroy brown

What IS with all the crazies in Arizona Newswinner? It couldn't possibly be their total lack of even the most reasonable gun control measures, because as any gun nut will tell you, more guns and less gun laws mean less shootings. Gotta love that gun nut logic!

Leroy you keep SPOUTING your lines but failed to respond to my challenge in another thread so lets try here.

Give us a "reasonable" set of laws. layman terms are fine. Something that is not a BAN or by requirements becomes a ban, such as NYC. do you even KNOW what the current laws are in your location, never mind in AZ? Many states have a right to carry in bars with the restriction the bearer can NOT consume alcohol. BTW, federal law prohibits anyone under 21 from possessing a handgun. There is a reasonable restriction/law that most of us agree on. Take it from there but make sure you are aware of what is already federal law. BATF website might be a great place to start.

Feel free to respond or just continue to spout. Your rep/cred is only riding on the response or lack of.

Bob in LA: As others have already stated, the shooting did not take place inside the bar, but actually happened outside in the parking lot.

Beyond that, something tells me that a law saying you can't have a gun in a bar wouldn't have been much of a deterrent to these people if they had wanted to go inside and shoot up the place.

Trust Verify: I would ask what laws are not already on the books that you would like to see added? My guess is that the shooters already broke dozens of them. The problem with the gun control crowd is that they appear to believe that criminals will obey laws.

stonedog,

i think you better look at a map with a compass in your hand. The last time i did Arizona was squarely in the "west". And are you seriously suggesting that random gunplay is only a southern condition? I think you might be suffering from a severe case of selective memory and absolutely no sense of direction!!

I am liberal and I also believe perpetrators kill, not the weapon. It is very fortunate that these criminals using guns, knives etc are using them and not bombs as they do in many other countries. Stricter laws on punishments are what's needed. Not laws that simply strip constitutional rights.

Hunt- I love how people think that all the people in the South carry guns. It must be a well kept secret that there are liberals in the south too. Liberals that do not carry guns. Another secret is that some people with liberal ideas have guns as well. Not everyone in the south is religious. The list could go on with all the stereotypes. It makes me laugh and mad when people stereotype all people from the south. Not a very liberal thing to do.

As well as there are just as many liberal gun owners as there are conservative gun owners, there are as many conservative non gun owners as there are liberal non gun owners.

Since it has been suggested there is no difference when was the last shooting, and I'll make it easy, leaving at least 5 wounded/dead, following a country music concert?

Since they are often portrayed as just a bunch of gun clinging religious nuts I'm sure people can provide tens, if not hundreds, of links to independent events within minutes of posting this comment.

Allowing guns in bars is jusr plain stupid. Didn't they even check guns at the door in bars of the wild west?

Sometimes, yes. In reality, most 'old west' towns just didn't have that many people who carried guns on their person. That's a greatly exaggerated stereotype that persists to this day. Lots of rifles, carbines, and shotguns were out there, but a handgun was the least useful type of firearm available and essentially a luxury good for all but a few serious users. A revolver would cost most people a good month or two of pay, and a box of cartridges was almost as much. The main appeal of a six-shooter was that it could be more or less concealed beneath a frock coat or a duster, which could be somewhat advantageous depending on what your occupation was.

Now, there were some hotspots where trouble seemed to congregate. Dodge City, Kansas had such a reputation, but Tombstone, Arizona started to become that way by about 1880 as it was a mining boom town at the time. An early gun control law was passed, prohibiting firearms within the city limits. One day late in October of 1881, a handful of 'Cowboys' (term equivalent to 'gangster' back then) came into town ignoring this law. City marshal Wyatt Earp enlisted the help of his brothers Virgil and Morgan as well as family friend 'Doc' Holliday to deal with the illegally armed men, and confronted them in the O.K. Corral...

I take my gun everywhere, bars, banks, post office etc.

Careful there, buddy!

The Post Office is property of the Federal government. The only people allowed to carry dangerous weapons on Federal property are employees of the Federal Government specifically authorized to do so (on-duty service members issued weapons, Federal law enforcement agents, etc.) and bona fide state, county, or city law enforcement officers (police officers, detectives, deputies, troopers, etc.) in the course of their duties.

You should have, by now, noted the sign on the door stating the penalties for the unauthorized possession of firearms and other dangerous weapons in the post office.

Don't get caught with it there, you're not going to like the results if you do!

Arizona has a law allowing people to carry weapons into a bar.

This is true. You can legally carry a firearm into a bar...UNLESS THE BUSINESS PROHIBITS THE CARRYING OF FIREARMS IN THE ESTABLISHMENT. Guess what? The bar in this situation does not allow weapons on the premises. So whether there is such a law or not, the action was still illegal. Amazing...a criminal who ignores the law...what a novel concept.

someone with ANY criminal record has a right to own a gun

So you can protect yourself from all those criminals with guns. Some logic.

San Diego-2561219

Slizzer back to the bowels of the out house, spare everyone the excreation of you thoughts

Tough to have a law that gangbanger morons cant own guns.The whole thug culture is part of the problem.

Sounds like the gun owner's dream. A guy pulls out a gun and someone else pulls out theirs to defend, right? That's supposed to stop the killing, right? That's what the NRA folks say....You boys and your ridiculous toys are the problem, grow up before you kill everyone who loves you. Idiots, all. Women, do the right thing, cut 'em off until they grow up! Then maybe they could handle access to adult things like guns and wombs.

I think the 2 idiots who shot up the place got their weapons from that gun running operation run by the Department of Justice. And to add insult, they were propably released from one of California's over crowded prisons or on parole from some other prior crime they commited. Yeah, you liberals can keep buying that line about "We're from the government and we're here to help." I live in Maryland, went to the Police station and all the police were behind bullet proof glass, solid doors and masonry walls. If the most heavily armed part of our population has to work like that, it makes me wonder WTF I was doing unarmed on my side of the glass. Proves the point " If I had to choose between police protection or carrying a firearm, I'll take the firearm and fill out my own paper work afterwards thank you"

bubbling,

you can thank hollywood and the television for that, along with the human predisposition for being absolutely content with spreading ill-concieved notions without a glimmer of substance behind them. It truly is amazing to me how people create and perpetuate their own truths to a point they actually begin to believe themselves.It doesn't make me mad at all..whats the point in taking offense with complete idiocy and delusion,other than to occasionally point out those glaringly regressive attributes to those who obviously possess them.

nomoss-

says right in the article they were black. maybe read the article before stirring up race-based sh*t...

btw, guns are great when handled properly by ADULTS (in mind, not in age or body), but you are 300% more likely to get shot in your lifetime if you own a gun than if you don't...

DSmith- Maybe YOU shouldn't let Faux News' right-wing propaganda influence your thinking/ opinion so much.

In your first post you make some excellent points, and then end with "But you liberals can't understand this". Well guess what? I'm about as socially liberal as they come, and not only do I "understand it", but I totally agree with everything you said (except for that last sentence). I carry my S&W 38 everywhere with me. When I say everywhere, I mean EVERYWHERE. I won't say any more, so as not to incriminate myself.

Newswinner, Mike, and myself are all "libbies" on here, not only defending the right to carry concealed, but encouraging it. And guess what? There are plenty more out there like us.

So. A few days ago there was yet ANOTHER shooting incident reported...

Now this. I'm curious.

Can one of you righties explain how the odds of more people using guns on impulse goes DOWN when the number of people with access to guns goes UP?

And please don't bore me with the baloney about other people with guns being a deterent - this happened in the Carry and Conceal State, after all. A criminal that's bold enough to pull a gun out in Arizona, with all those John Wayne wannabees about, couldn't give a rats arse about whether or not you're packing. they might even enjoy the challenge. In the meantime, those of us who just want to go out and listen to some music have to bear the consequences of your affinity for gunpower.

Have a nice day.

shut yer yap- I'm a leftie, but maybe I can help...

Unfortunately, the odds of people using guns on IMPULSE probably won't go down. Impulsive people with anger problems and no self control shouldn't have guns. They should, however, have the RIGHT to make that choice for themselves. These 2 could have just as easily (and just as impulsively) ran these other people down in the parking lot with the car they drove off in. In fact, they probably would have if they didn't have their guns. And yes, they could have done even more harm that way.

And if you think that all the statistical data and common sense that points to guns being a deterrent is "baloney",then you probably won't understand, but concealed carry isn't supposed to put a stop to some hothead who impulsively decides to do you harm. It's so you might have a fighting chance when it happens, instead of being a totally helpless victim, cowering in a corner, begging for them not to kill you...right before they do.

Laws don't deture criminals, if it did, they wouldn't be criminals!

More gun laws only further restricts honest law biding citizens, and gives more laws for criminals to break.

Yeah, folks like "mo nig" are 100% right -- giving up our Freedoms just to keep a few loonies from killing people is stoopid. Guess that means we'll just have to let all them terrorists go......

Oh, that ain't what "mo nig" and the other Right-wingers meant? Well, it's what they said!

There is a word that you can use to educate yourself on Arizona and other places. "Demographics." One demographic is "Crime Statistics." If you google this, you cand find out a lot about specific areas. When I move to a new state or city that is the first thing I do to decide where I don't want to live.

This area (Most of Southern Arizona) is WAY over the average for the U.S. in crimes committed. The only safe areas seem to be IN THE MIDDLE of gang controlled areas with few roads to leave. They don't do too much harm on their home turf. The worst areas look like the border areas between gangs, except where they have declared neutral areas. If you can get a copy of the police maps showing gang controlled areas, you would be amazed to find that they are set up like political districts.

Yes, Arizona is full of crazies and the decent, sheltered, middle class doesn't have a clue. I have never seen a police cordon blocking off a 1/4 mile square area till I moved here. Now I see it several times a year just in my part of town. Other areas here are even worse.

Some places don't need more gun control. Arizona has no control of their guns and they really need some.

ConservativenotRepublican said

The problem with the gun control crowd is that they appear to believe that criminals will obey laws.

Let's take that a step further, shall we? The problem with the anti-Mexican, anti-Islamist Terrorist, anti-"Satanist", anti-anything-not-"American" crowd is that they think Mexicans, Islamist Terrorists, "Satanists", and all others will obey the laws passed against them.

Y'all want less Gub'mint Intooshun inta your lives -- but yer ok with MORE Gub'mint Introoshun inta the lives of everyone who "happens" to not be like y'all.

RDF-44

shut yer yap- I'm a leftie, but maybe I can help...

Unfortunately, the odds of people using guns on IMPULSE probably won't go down. Impulsive people with anger problems and no self control shouldn't have guns

What if the rage is coming from an constant bleed in the spinal area? Because if that's the case I'd sell my gun. But I control my anger at the shooting range. No civies only paper and wood.

Huh. I thought the left wing liberals would be having a hey-day with this news. No, minorities are involved. No insipid comments about right-wing redneck "Tea Baggers" raising hell and shooting here, so I guess there's nothing to see here. Now let's go talk about how well those anti-gun laws are working in Chicago and Washington DC...

By the by - someone let me know when they hear about a bunch of drunk red state rednecks listening to Willie Nelson at a bar and then start shooting each other up, mmkay?

Hunt- Good point I will take your advice.

I always thought AZ was some kind of retirement mecca for the nearly dead. Now you got grannies pumpin rap through their skirts. Just don't make no sense...

Howmanyfingers

It's easy to sneak alot of weapons into any place that does not have metal detectors at the entrances, whether the state says it okay or not.

Government schools again fail us. Please have someone read the article to you slowly, particularly the part about "outside" in the "parking lot".

Don't even try it, nibor. Some of these people are so rabidly anti gun they imediately create their own truths on the subject no matter how many words are written to the contrary. Its as if as soon as they hear gun they come down with a sudden and infinite case of tunnel vision . Truthfully there are just as many rabidly pro gun people on here who on hearing "anti gun" all suddenly become delusional paranoids... run off and hide their weapons and ammunition before jumping onto the computer to create their own truths. You'd think both sides of the radically uncompromising fence would eventually cancel eachother out..but it looks as if all it really does is procreate more of the same.

Personally, i have a whole slew of guns , am a democrat and come from a centuries old line of native southerners,but somehow i can see reason in parts and pieces of both arguments. If with my background i have no trouble whatsoever finding common ground with this issue.. i can't for the life of me understand why so many people can't even fathom it. However..i see it as a sign of all things to come and "gun rights" just happening to be one of the most visible borometers for the future of uncompromising division in this country.

"Daddy's gun tastes like pennies."

Ralph Wiggum

Women, do the right thing, cut 'em off until they grow up! Then maybe they could handle access to adult things like guns and wombs.

Yeah, the mutilation of all of America's sons is exactly what we need... You should read "Fight Club" by Chuck Palahniuk and (preferably) some of the critical analyses of the book. Your suggestion that we fix an already emasculated society by further emasculating it by castration/mutilation (even if meant metaphorically) only contributes to the same problems that create random male violence to begin with.

As for the first part of your statement:

Sounds like the gun owner's dream. A guy pulls out a gun and someone else pulls out theirs to defend, right? That's supposed to stop the killing, right? That's what the NRA folks say....You boys and your ridiculous toys are the problem, grow up before you kill everyone who loves you. Idiots, all.

You might find this enlightening:

* Based on survey data from the U.S. Department of Justice, roughly 5,340,000 violent crimes were committed in the United States during 2008. These include simple/aggravated assaults, robberies, sexual assaults, rapes, and murders.[13] [14] [15] Of these, about 436,000 or 8% were committed by offenders visibly armed with a gun.[16]

* Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18]

* A 1993 nationwide survey of 4,977 households found that over the previous five years, at least 3.5% of households had members who had used a gun "for self-protection or for the protection of property at home, work, or elsewhere." Applied to the U.S. population, this amounts to 1,029,615 such incidents per year. This figure excludes all "military service, police work, or work as a security guard."[19]

* A 1994 survey conducted by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that Americans use guns to frighten away intruders who are breaking into their homes about 498,000 times per year.[20]

* A 1982 survey of male felons in 11 state prisons dispersed across the U.S. found:[21]

• 34% had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim"

• 40% had decided not to commit a crime because they "knew or believed that the victim was carrying a gun"

• 69% personally knew other criminals who had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim"[22]

So, let me see here... only 8% of violent crimes are committed with firearms, approximately 436,000 instances a year... And law-abiding, gun owning Americans STOP, PREVENT or DETER crime somewhere between 989,883 to 1,029,615 times each year using their LEGALLY OWNED FIREARM. Or, to put it more simply, Firearms are used a little more than twice as often to STOP crime than they are used to COMMIT crime. Sounds like the good easily outweighs the bad. Maybe you feel that this woman:

Teen Mom Shoots Home Intruder

shouldn't have had a firearm either, eh? Oh wait... I forgot, you're a glaring feminist, so of course the fact that she was born with a uterus provides her with some magically inherent maturity that men are incapable of? Right?

Have a nice day.

Hmmm.... Ya best stay away from Washington, D.C., too then. Lots of ILLEGAL DRUG ACTIVITY goin' on there, too -- and most of it's HOME-GROWN.

Stop blaming "Mehico", ya maroon.

if he does, obama will just blame it on bush

Arpaio for president

Arpaio is a fake and an arrogant self loving grandstander,

tactical45- Arpaio is a fake and an arrogant self loving grandstander

Obama is the ultimate fake, arrogant and self-loving grandstander.

Arpaio is doing the job he was elected to do, while the flag-burning leftists like Obama sue the state for enforcing the law, and use their media moguls to convince a gullible public that to protect our own country is "racist".

This is how a country is lost, and it's happening right before our eyes.

Too bad he's in charge of the Tribe (Nation) and taking us down the path of financial despair along with the useless crooks in both parties of Congress.

ALL career politicians are fakes and grandstanders. Point at a career politician, and you've found someone who will lie about their own grandmother, if it will help get that career politician elected.

Well played.

Guns are like candy. If you give too much candy to a child, they get sick. This is also true of babying the gun nuts in this country. They or others end up dead.

There may be viable reasons to own a gun, i.e., law enforcement, military, protection from wild animals in frontier areas or gun collecting as a hobby. There is no reason any American buffoon needs to walk around the streets intimidating everyone else in broad daylight just because his ego is mass insecurity and only the gun addiction gives the buzz that's needed to insure security.

We baby these gun addicts and feed their addiction every time we allow them to gloss over the blood bath in the streets of the US their addiction is creating. They want every man, woman and child to be armed. Well? Now kids kill kids in schools. Thank you gun addicts for your contributions to the world's least safest country. At any moment, as no other time in US history before, you can end up dead because how dare we not pay attention to gun addicts and their tantrums and predilections for danger they get their adrenalin rush from?

These gun addicts are mentally ill. It's often very difficult to recognize paranoia as a mental illness until it's out of control. When children must be armed just to go to school to get an education, maybe this mental illness gun addiction is now at breaking point? Or don't gun nuts ever think there's a breaking point of tolerance the rest of us will endure?

Five, four, three, two one....and the gun addicts will now all return fire with glib, glossed over arguments of why they must be the only members of their paranoid society to be armed so they can intimidate the rest of us. Ready? Set? Go.....

No glib comments from me. However lets address your points.

First, this is a right we are talking about, you are free to exercise it or not at your leisure, just like voting. However, you have exactly zero right to strip others of it based on your irrational fear.

There is no reason any American buffoon needs to walk around the streets intimidating everyone else in broad daylight ....

So many ad hominums, so little time. Anyway, if you carry a gun with the intent to intimidate others your probably a criminal, in fact you would likely be one of those people who others need to protect themselves from. If you are intimidated by the sight of a person of a gun I can only assume you are also intimidated by anyone who has taken the time to go to a self-defense class, or carries boxing gloves, or plays baseball, or tennis. Off of that equipment is a weapon in the wrong hands after all. Are you fearful of people who are more physically fit than yourself? Do you feel intimidated by them, do you project your sense of fear into an intent that they must mean to intimidate you?

They want every man, woman and child to be armed

Wow, a complete straw man, not surprised.

I'm guessing your ignorant of the fact that violence in schools has gone down:

"Rates of school-associated student homicides decreased between 1992 and 2006."-CDC (they only started tracking in that manner in 1992)

Myth No. 10. “School violence is rampant.”- MSNBC Story (Ironic, no)

Let me know when you'd like to discuss the facts as they exist in the real world and not the paranoia chamber yours seem ot have come from.

Jake ...gun owners can stick that pistol in their nether regions for all I care. But when I have to worry about some armed nut walking the streets I pay taxes for...YOUR kind is denying ME MY RIGHTS... get it now?

I have the right to live in a fearless environment. Your kind loves fearmongering others until they are no longer safe in their own neighborhoods.

Violence in schools has increased. Why? Because now kids in schools see those school cops armed and it's a challenge to see how far they can get past the law. So much for teaching kids gun respect. How many more schools have to lose valuable educational time for lock downs only these last 3 generations have had to endure?

Doesn't it strike you as peculiar that none of the religious schools have been reported to have gun problems like the public school systems that have taxpayers like me paying for school cops to prevent gun deaths?

Let me know when your fake world comes crashing down. Because in the real world, mental healthy people don't walk around like paranoid nuts in fear of every strange face that comes their way. Sorry, you lost your argument big time.

Schools I pay taxes for are there for education...not for defense. How are children supposed to get any education when they are faced with a school cop defending their right to their education first thing they see every day?

How is your right to carry not imposing on MY right to safe schools? How is your right to be armed not infringing on MY right to live my life in a safe, happy community that doesn't have paranoid gun addicts spewing their fearmongering games of intimidation on us?

Sorry, MY rights come before YOURS. You are not a militia as implied in the Second Amendment. That BS misinterpretation reminds me of the double talk I heard from my kids when they were trying to circumvent my authority as their parent.

No one is born with a gun and therefore, no one needs one strapped to their body like an additional appendage. If that's how you really feel, you need more professional help than you think.

If put to a national referendum, gun addicts would now be doing the wah, wah, wah....Big Baby wants his gun....and the bad people took it away....wah, wah, wah...Cry me a river.

There is no reason any American buffoon needs to walk around the streets intimidating everyone else in broad daylight

Well, only a buffoon would walk around the streets in broad daylight with a visible firearm.

Most jurisdictions require anyone who is licensed to carry a handgun to keep it concealed. The laws also require that the person licensed to carry them in only a concealed manner not do anything that would cause a disruption and to avoid any type of conflict or altercation unless such is not possible.

Anyone who does what is being described in post 5.2 is, in the vast majority of places, probably not long from occupying a jail cell and losing any firearms they own as well as their legal right to even touch a firearm, depending on what trouble they let themselves get into.

the blood bath in the streets of the US

the world's least safest country. At any moment, as no other time in US history before, you can end up dead

With words like that, one would expect that this writer lives in, say, Europe or Japan and their only real knowledge of the US is what they see and hear in the world news coverage. Most people who live in the US are not able to identify with this description of things as it doesn't apply to where they are!

When children must be armed just to go to school to get an education

If that was true, the laws and policies would be changing to permit such a thing. Minors are very unlikely to be permitted to possess let alone carry handguns anytime soon, and in most places schools are off limits to anyone carrying a gun except for official purposes (i.e.: law enforcement). Be careful with the word 'must'!

ewent- Please explain to ALL of us where exactly " I have the right to live in a fearless environment. " is part of the Constitution that defines our "rights" or in any state constitution for that matter. That azzinine statement totally defines you as one who must live in a fairy land and is a true whack job. Come on over to Michigan and visit Detroit on a Friday or Saturday night. Start spouting about this "right" you somehow think is granted to you and, do please tell us who granted this "right" to you and when !!!!LOL, I would love to see the reaction you get from say 9 out of ten fine Americans that you try to sell your dribble to in Detroit.........

jburke...Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? Preamble to the Constitution? Guaranteed Constitutional rights? So what your post implies is that gun owners are more constitutionally entitled? My tax dollars pay for my rights. They don't pay for you to trample my rights so you can enjoy more rights than me.

Come over to Trenton or Camden NJ any day of the week. Start spouting about your gun rights and I can guarantee, they'll prove you have none with one shot.

I would love to see your pro-gun reaction in New York City where gun murders are a huge problem and the mayors in the cities in the tri-state areas are getting pretty damn fed up with the profiteering gun runners selling guns to people in these cities.

The problem with most hinterland folks is they only think they know what life in the real world is like. Stay in New York, DC, Philadelphia or Boston for a day and spout that "Me Hotcha Armed Man" routine and see how fast you'll be immobilized. And if Detroit is having such problems what the hell does that say about the lack of proper gun control? How much are the gun profiteers making off Detroit?

ewent-

..Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

Exactly, however you missed one little point there ewent. Like answering the question......

Not exactly seeing " I have the right to live in a fearless environment. "

so, again , wher is THIS RIGHT DEFINED............????????

Are you a politician? You have experience at avoiding a direct question. And, I have been to New jersey, near Camden. Lived and worked in Atlantic city for a bit. Didn't get shot at , or if I did get shot at, your NJ shooters need some more practice, as they missed. So, far, I have not missed hitting anything I have shoot at. Must have had some decent training during the 21 years I spent in the military.

And one other thing, I grew up in Boston 1954 to 1972........

Allo... my name is Pablo,.... and I am a "Gun Addict".

I started out small, I remember my first slingshot I built out of a stick, but that wasn't enough for me, I wanted a faster projectile. I dreamed and wished for something better. Then my enabling parents in their desire to make me a happy child, bought me a Red Rider BB gun. My father took the opportunity to spend more time with me showing me the safe way to hanfdle the weapon. After all , he was a "Gun Addict" too. Yes... it's true, I nearly shot my eye out while trying to shoot Black Bart targets in my back yard when he wasnt home to supervise me and I snuck in and took my gun out by myself.. Again.. this wasnt enough for me.

I had to have the next best thing, so I saved my money from a paper route and I bought my first Crosman 760. She was a beauty. Those little BB's and pellets could travel over 700 feet per second. I brought home many a squirrel and rabbit to have my poor enabling mother cook for me. I was satiated for the time being. In the mean time my dad grew ill from Cancer and ccoulndt spend any more quality "Addiction" time with me, enjoyoing the outdoors. He died the following year. I think this is where I really lost control. I started shooting my guns alone, I would sneak off from school to go shoot in the woods by myself. I showed up a couple times at school smelling like gun poil after cleaning and caring for my "babies"

When I turned 18, I bought my first .22 . A REAL firearm.. one that goes "Bang". I didnt have to but I took a Firearms safety course offered by the state Wildlife office and funded in part by the NRA. I new I was in bad company with my other fellow "Addicts". However I felt strangely comfortable here. There were a lot of stern strict rule followers here. People who insisted we follow the rules about firearm safety. These guys were HARDCORE "Addicts". I mean they expected me to be safe, and clean my firearm, and give it all the respect that my Father instilled in me. Many of these old Hardcore "addicts" even treated my like their own son. Should have known that's how they snag you and suck you into the fold. Several of these "Addicts even took me hunting with them on the weekends. They got me into the bad stuff... Competitive Trap and Skeet shooting. I was really in deep now.

It' has been over 40 years since my first slingshot. I now have a few handguns, some shotguns, a few rifles. Not as many as some, but more than others. I spend my pathetic days walking in the outdoors hunting birds and deer. Sometimes I even take the occassional rabbit for a nice stew. I know my problem is an "Addiction" and I wish you other "Addicts" would stop coddling me. I mean.. I have a serious problem. I spend my money on ammo, hunting and fishing licenses that help support wilderness areas, and game management. I even travel to areas that cater to "Addicts" like me, by offering Hotels, and camping areas. I throw good money after bad on hunting guides, and new fishing poles. I mean, I think sometimes guys like me might even support whole rural economies based on our "Addiction". It's pathetic. I feel so ashamed.

My name is Pablo... and I'm a "Gun Addict".

ewent - YOu have a very interesting and twisted view of our constitutional laws as well as your logic.

Do you really think for one moment that a complete ban on guns will stop any crimes involving guns? If so, I have a bridge to sell you. Take a look at coun tries like Brazil. Allow them to show you what a country with laws preventing you to own a gun are like.

Factual Data on Brazil: Although Brazil has 100 million fewer citizens than the United States, and more restrictive gun laws, there are 25 percent more gun deaths;^[4] other sources indicate that homicide rates due to guns are approximately four times higher than the rate in the United States.

Link for reference:

So if you want to live in peach and harmony and have no fear of guns, just head for Brazil where there are plenty of gun laws and I'm sure you'll feel nice and comfy.

End of story.

ewent-

I would love to see your pro-gun reaction in New York City where gun murders are a huge problem and the mayors in the cities in the tri-state areas are getting pretty damn fed up with the profiteering gun runners selling guns to people in these cities.

Gun running is illegal right? So, it could be assumed that it is criminals engaging in that activity.

New York City where gun murders are a huge problem

I was under the impression that hand guns are illegal in New York City. So, again, it could be assumed that criminals engage in this activity.

Cocaine and heroin is also illegal, with no exception! But yet that continues to be a growing problem as well. These drugs cannot be manufactured in the U.S. based simply on climate. But yet here they are, brought in in large quantities from other countries. There are illegal aliens coming into the country, buy the millions! Pretty difficult items to smuggle, don't you think? Especially in the quantities realized!

Not hard to imagine then, based on all this other illegle crimial activity, that gun smuggling is extreemly easy for criminals already engaging in criminal activity.

Attacking law-biding citizens rights, does not stop criminal activity, or behavior. I would bet these two individuals in question, ARE NOT, law-biding gun owners.

Ewent, everyone has a right to be safe but that doesn't mean you will be. There're just too many nut jobs out there who use will any means possible to deprive you of that right whether it be using a vehicle, baseball bat, knife, bomb, plane or a rock for that matter. Your dislike of gun ownership doesn't justify stepping upon the right of others who do own guns legally.

Deal with it, it's reality and a Constitutional right

My Link for reference was deleted, however it came from Wikipedia; Search word: Gun Politics. Read it and learn something useful.

ewent

My tax dollars pay for my rights

that doesnt even make sense. so your tax dollars give you rights that you are born with? I'm sorry but that right there shows you really dont understand the constitution or even the bill of rights very well. people like you scare me. you will be the first in line to give up only certain liberties and freedoms you dont understand or agree with or think are needed anymore.

It was also very nice of you to point out the murder problem in New York city with New York having some of the toughest gun laws in the country not to mention that NYC has its own laws that are even harder on gun owners... guess those extra laws are working out great for them.

EWENT- It gives me much satisfaction to see that this issue gets under your skin. MWAHAHAHAAAAA!

You're one of those leftists who are always going on about how "compassionate" and "tolerant" the left is in this country, while calling names and leveling absurd and baseless accusations at conservatives or anyone else who disagrees with your philosophy of shoving your Marxist-based tyranny down the throats of other Americans because it's what YOU want.

The LEFT and people like YOU are the ones who altered our immigration laws (Immigration and Nationalization Act of 1965), changing our country from amajority white European nation to a multiracial-multicultural mess which is eroding OUR culture, OUR neighborhoods, OUR schools, and OUR peace and safety and the birthright of our progeny to have their own nation. Then you have the NERVE to proudly tell people that the America we knew and loved is gone, and to "get over it".

The LEFT and people like YOU were behind Johnson's "Great Society" which took money from hard working taxpayers to redistribute it to inner city blacks who were able to collect money for each child they had...so they had lots of them on OUR dime! These offspring in turn had many children early and often...also on our dime. The rate of single parent black households exploded since the beginning of this program, and we're still paying for it.

The LEFT and people like YOU never show the slightest concern for the rights you take from others. You only care about your make-believe-land ideologies and how you can either fool people into accepting them, or force it upon them. This time you get a taste of your own medicine!

Guns are not going away, and they shouldn't. We already know people like YOU are trying their best to eliminate that right. We will fight you. If the government ever tries to disarm the populace, then it's time to consider that government officially subverted, illegal, obsolete, and an enemy of the people. We will form a new one that protects OUR interests, instead of protecting everyone's BUT ours!

EWENT, I have read your posts here and you clearly need to get a clue. If honest citizens carried handguns in the cities you stated, crime rates would go down. A little research of stats would educate you. I am not sure you care.

Would crime rates go down if honest citizens carried handguns in the cities?

I'm not confident that would be the case.

I suspect what would happen is that there would be a shift in the types of crimes, or, perhaps in the motivations for certain crimes, but a change in what leads to crime is not the same as a reduction in crime. Capital punishment and lengthening of prison sentences didn't seem to do a whole lot to deter criminals!

Remember that old saying about keeping honest people honest? We're looking at something like that. A mostly law abiding citizen who has fallen on hard times and is genuinely desperate will probably not resort to robbery if he knows that there are a lot of people with guns out there and that he may be crippled or die if he demands someone's wallet and instead gets a Walther.

How many people rob and steal just to make ends meet? I suspect this could be one good thing to come from welfare programs...it's a lot safer to apply to take money from taxpayers on a monthly basis than it is to approach random strangers and demand money from them directly!

Problem is, you get people who don't really need the money, they need drugs. Any money they take is merely a vehicle with which to buy the drugs. Their need for the drugs is so strong that they either give no consideration to the possibility that someone may shoot them in a foiled robbery attempt, or else they really don't care if someone does. Either way, no real deterrent value!

Rapists might be somewhat deterred, but only in individual instances. I'm guessing if they were eyeing a woman who gives them the impression she might be armed, they'd just look for one who they feel comfortable wouldn't be.

Assailants, in this case people who are targeting a specific individual to kill but otherwise aren't completely out of their gords will just adapt their strategy a bit, such as setting up an ambush or just shooting their quarry in the back when a good opportunity to do so presents itself. If somebody really wants to kill somebody else, the thought that that person may be armed probably isn't going to change their feeling toward that person. They might decide not to confront the person directly before killing them, that's all!

People who have totally lost it also aren't going to rationalize this. A lot of things are possible with people who are completely psychotic, and they might give the idea that someone could try to kill them no thought whatsoever, feel that it would make them some sort of martyr, or could even be deluded into believing that they'e invincible and nothing can hurt them anyway. Their reasons for hurting people, especially total strangers, can be quite unbelievable to the average person.

Deterrent only works on those who can be deterred, and that's the 90% plus of us who aren't out committing crimes in the first place and the relative handful who might be tempted to if the circumstances were right. There's maybe 5-7% of the population that just will not be deterred!

Ewent:

I have the right to live in a fearless environment.

Really, on what philosophy do you base that? On what planet do you think you live that fear is not a natural part of your environment? Are you apprehensive of disease, wild animals, sickness, accidents. What possible rationale do you think supports such a notion that we posses any "right" to be free of fear. This universe is one that offers boundless opportunities for only self-harm but harm from others.

Your kind loves fearmongering others until they are no longer safe in their own neighborhoods.

Oh I love this, so what is "my kind". I mean other than the kind who would see you educated on the facts, such as the fact that violent crime is done, that areas which have gone from may issue to shall issue have not seen the return of the wild wild west as so many fear mongering left leaning prognosticators predicted. Remember when Florida was changing their laws, and the fear mongering the left was offering. Why we wold have shootings at car accidents they told us. Didn't happen, but they said it would. So who was fear mongering?

Violence in schools has increased.

If you can't be bothered to actually know the facts we are going to have to come up with new rules for debate. I mean really, if you're just going to post fiction then I'm gonna be forced to ask why you can be for using babies as clubs. Both links I offered are about the decreases in school violence. It has been going down since the 1970's. Not up.

You are not a militia as...

Actually I am a Soldier in the US Army. But absent that what other parts where the Constitution says "of the people" do you think do not apply "to the people". But even absent both of those, I am a male between the ages of 18-45, so yes, I am a part of the militia by even the most strict interpretation.

I present you this sentence:

A well-schooled electorate, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and read Books, shall not be infringed.

Do you think that sentence means the right of the people is contingent upon them being allowed to vote, or simply recognizes a pre-existing right of theirs to keep and read books?

If put to a national referendum...

The right to keep and bear arms by people would be affirmed about 73% to 20%.

You really don't know what you're talking about do you? Although I'm not above the possibility that you are just fishing for comments though.

Which is it, ignorant of the facts, or just messing with people?

I have the right to live in a fearless environment.

I will answer this absurdity with a lyric from Tool's song "Vicarious," which is, fittingly, about violence in our culture and our obsession with it:

Credulous at best
Your desire to believe in
Angels in the hearts of men.
But pull your head on out (of) your hippie haze
And give a listen
Shouldn't have to say it all again:

The universe is hostile
So impersonal
Devour to survive
So it is, so it's always been ...

I too wondered whom the headlining performer for tonight was and was disheartened to learn that it was one of my favorite L.A.-based artists, Nipsey Hussle. Obviously the details of this situation aren't available yet but he is factually from the Rolling Sixties Crip Gang in south central Los Angeles. He's actually one of the brighter talents to be produced from those environs so I'm hoping this incident doesn't have anything to do with him or or his affiliations.

I checked his Twitter page to see if he had posted anything regarding the show and all he's said so far is, 'Az....y'all gotta be cool man. This sh!t ain't rite.' posted approx 4 hrs ago.

my favorite L.A.-based artists, Nipsey Hussle. Obviously the details of this situation aren't available yet but he is factually from the Rolling Sixties Crip Gang

Another young rapper trying to better the world. No doubt his music is all about respect for one another & love for fellow man. The Rolling Sixties Crip Gang? A fine group of youths.

Guns do not kill a fraction as many people as cars with a drunk behind the wheel. Since 1948, more than 1,600,000 people have been killed by drunk drivers in the U. S. alone. More than 10,000,000 maimed for life. Guns are a lot safer than cars when drunks are around them. I own a gun and I have not killed anyone, neither has my gun. Neither has my pickup.

Shel Rama--but, you had to get a license to drive that truck, and your license can be revoked if you do stupid things with the truck. You can then be put in jail if you are caught without your license. There are rules about registering your truck, there has to be a license plate on your truck, there are rules you have to obey.

This is the point--when you have an object that is potentially lethal, then the community has the right to place certain usage rules on that object. They should be sensible rules that are not overly burdensome, but the community has an interest in creating rules. If Arizona suddenly made it legal for people to drive without insurance, drive any speed they want to, ignore any signs they want to, and drive drunk--then we would have an equivalent situation between guns and cars in Arizona. Most people agree that some regulation of driving is necessary for the same reason that some think that some regulation of guns is necessary--and that is why some people are commenting about the state of regulation in Arizona.

While one might find a few nutcases who still want to ban handguns, there has never been a concerted movement in the US to ban all guns. The movement is for gun control, not gun banning. Try asking to have proper gun ed taught in schools just like driver's ed is taught, and you'll be surprised how amenable gun control advocates are (because they like the idea of people being trained).

That there are many, many people who have killed others using cars has to do with how many cars there are than guns, and how much more often people use cars than guns, not with how much more dangerous cars are. If we regarded guns--which are hand-held cannons--with the same seriousness that we regard cars, then we'd all be better off.

Apparently the word, "CONTROL" as used by the government is totally lost on you.

Gun training our children should be started as soon as they are old enough to walk and talk, just like everything else. And anti-gun groups are against anything to do with guns including training for child safety. Ask an anti-gunner about it. All my children were taught to shoot and clean their weapons as soon as they were old enough to pick one up. I have 5 children,9 grandchildren and none are dangerous with any weapon. They were taught guns and knives are tools we use. They were taught there is a time and place for their use.

how many people have been killed by regular motor vehical accidents without alcohal, or by idiots on cell phones

Ron: Turn on spell check.

Most gun deaths are attributed to those living a life of crime.....and not people who live a normal life, who legally carry a gun for protection.

beanathome

but, you had to get a license to drive that truck, and your license can be revoked if you do stupid things with the truck. You can then be put in jail if you are caught without your license. There are rules about registering your truck, there has to be a license plate on your truck, there are rules you have to obey.

MOST states require a license to carry concealed. Ones Right to possess a firearm can be revoked if they commit a felony or do something stupid with a gun. Driving is a PRIVILEGE, gun ownership is a RIGHT. Hitler liked that gun registration... yes it's old but a fact.

While one might find a few nutcases who still want to ban handguns, there has never been a concerted movement in the US to ban all guns. The movement is for gun control, not gun banning. Try asking to have proper gun ed taught in schools just like driver's ed is taught, and you'll be surprised how amenable gun control advocates are (because they like the idea of people being trained).

Lets start with that banning thing... look at California, Illinois, NYC, DC. Their gun "control" effectively BANS all guns. Also look at the Brady Bill.

I don't see gun control advocates presenting anything amenable. Most offer a lot of rhetoric and have no real idea about guns in general. They list guns by name, not capability, as being illegal yet an identical gun under a different name is not on the list.

First it's a list of guns, then registration, then training, then pass a background, then MAY issue rather than Shall issue unless otherwise disqualified. That last part is the rub. The open carry is prevented due to they have laws about enticing panic/excitement.

I would LOVE to hear they actually taught gun safety in schools, they did in PA at one time. Now they don't even offer drivers ed in a lot of schools unless the parent pays an additional fee to have their child taught. Bringing a gun of ANY sort inside a school is a federal crime due to the safe schools act so they couldn't teach effectively even if they wanted to without committing a federal felony.

Yes...Just what every mother and father needs to do first. Teach their two year old in the first phase of his learning what "NO" means how to shoot a gun. Sorry, you had a shooting this week at a school and that kid was used to having a gun in the household...now thanks to his "respect" for guns...fellow students are dead and others injured.

Gun idiots just don't get it. They want a 5 year old to have the judgmental wisdom of a 50 year old. Yeah..that'll happen. Meanwhile, Big Daddah shows his son how to shoot at cans first and then at helpless animals and next the kid thinks it's perfectly okay if someone makes him mad at school to take Big Daddah's gun and take his anger out on those he feel righteously deserve it.

All while Big Daddah is at work jacking his ego at the lessons in gun respect he taught his son. Until the cops come to his job and inform him his kid who respected guns killed off 3 of his fellow 5 year olds and the teacher with it.

Good show teaching a 5 year old gun respect.

ewent

Again, your post is pure rubbish. You have nothing meaningful to say, just anti gun, mindless babble.

dansu...And you I suppose being pro-gun makes all the rules on rubbish? I thought so. Landfills are full of posts like yours. As for your insults, I always consider the source. And, yours isn't a priority.

This was clearly the act of yet another well-regulated militia.

Ewent- Is being a total idiot your main goal in life? Because of so, you are well on your way of completing your goal. Have a good journey, and dont forget to check the expiration dates on your meds. I'm thinking you might be past the expired dates on several..........

ewent

Teach their two year old in the first phase of his learning what "NO" means how to shoot a gun.

I did not know 2 year olds went to school. Parents teaching their children what the word NO means would be a good first step as many today don't seem to understand those two letters together other than O follows N in the alphabet.

They want a 5 year old to have the judgmental wisdom of a 50 year old. Yeah..that'll happen

Teaching a child that NO means NO and to not touch a gun is NOT difficult No wisdom involved but seems to be lacking in many these days. BTW how did we get 5 year olds involved in THIS thread or were the perps in this story underage?

Sad but true. Have you ever noticed we as a society love it when someone gets hurt or killed? ever pass by a wreck and not think DAMN? we laugh at others pain and misfortune. look at the cartoons we let our kids watch, shows like worlds dumbest pain and misfortune are entertainment

What's this "we" stuff? You got a mouse in your pocket?

These things are nothing new. It's always been there.

djo...It's no unusual coincidence that sales of guns in the US have been growing over the last 4 decades. How many people in the 1940's and 1950's had the money to buy guns? You bet they spent their money on more worthwhile things.

Look at the REAL reason for this massive gun ownership today...gun profits by gun manufacturers who want zero regulations if at all possible. Gun dealers who sell over the internet to anyone who has the ready cash to buy a gun. Profit, profit, profit. The more gun deaths the better. The innocent people dead the better...Take out all those unnecessary innocent bystanders in the way of two paranoid gun nuts and decrease the surplus population. That way, when the gun paranoids are down to only each other, they can have shoot outs all day long and what fun that will be. Nothing to do but kill, kill, kill....even if it is only each other.

True

Hey Southern. No lights on in your attic is there?

SouthernObserver

My sarcasm meter may be broken, hopefully you are not serious about Mexico being safer.

Southern Observer...You forgot VA...VA Tech? Where a gun killed innocent college students for no real reason than tah dah.....paranoia? But let's reduce gun regulations right?

ewent

A "gun" killed innocent college students? Really? We need to find that thing and put it in a lab to see how it learned to function on its own.

dansu...A gun killed millions of people. People didn't kill people. I'll prove it. One man stands face to face with another man ready to square off in battle. No weapons at all. One man kills the other.

One man with a gun in his hand kills another man with a gun in his hand. What really killed him? The man's hands? The man's arms and legs? Or the gun with the bullet in it?

Nice try attempting to make the poor lil gun such an innocent victim of the big bad man. Now can we employ a little common sense and admit that every Medical examiner in the US has to make a determination of "what killed a murder victim"? How many times does a medical examiner you know write a report that claims a murder victim as killed by an "assailant" and not a "weapon"? How many times does that medical examiner's report contain the words "gun shot wounds" when it applies and not "man shot wounds?"

Doesn't work that lame ass argument that guns don't kill. Every medical examiner in the country would have to start rewriting their gun shot murder reports so that the poor lil gun gets a free pass and the bullets in the victims say "Man shot" and not "gun shot".

Yeesh...and some people will go to any extremes to prove a negative.

Oh, so that gun went off all on its own? Wow, technolog these days! Oh, and let me guess. It was the spoon that made Rosie O'Donnel fat? Cause that makes total sense!

Attention people! If you are ever charged with murder, blame it on the weapon you used!

"Honestly officer, I didn't stab that person! The knife did it, it was all his idea!"

SO - Sorry I have been to Mexico dozens of times for work. You are wrong as two men trying to make a baby. It is not safer than this country. If you really believe that, go right ahead, pack your stuff and hit the border......

Southern Observer...You forgot VA...VA Tech? Where a gun killed innocent college students for no real reason than tah dah.....paranoia? But let's reduce gun regulations right?

Yeesh...and some people will go to any extremes to prove a negative.

ewent your ignorant and extreme rants prove your own point.

People kill people, guns are inanimate objects incapable of harming others on its own. What's so difficult to understand about that?

1) Students at college, are considered adults at 18.

2) Students who wish to carry a gun...not only the men, but the women...carry it for protection.

3) Students who do own a firearm, have grown up with them, and have been trained on how to handle them...and when to handle them.

4) They see that anywhere you are, anything can happen. No place or person is immune from someone who wishes to do harm to someone else.

5) Would you rather hear of innocent people being shot and killed at a school, or would you rather hear of someone who was about to take the lives of people being stopped by someone who was carrying a gun legally, and saved the lives of many would be victims.

Please understand. Many who own and carry a gun legally, take it very seriously. They go to the shooting range constantly and train to handle their sidearm. Both young men and women support the right to be able to defend themselves no matter where they might be, and they take it very seriously.

With absloute respect to you and your sons, I would encourage you to talk to people who do carry a gun for protection, and you will see that it is not taken lightly.

More than likely, your sons will not witness a dangerous situation......but if the chance was to arise...would you want someone there to be able to defend them?...and would you want your sons to be able to defend themselves?

diana-1091347

HAVE YOU SEEN the new law allowing guns on college campus,

Actually no I have not but would love to, please provide a link. I am hoping Ohio gets it on the books.

You are aware that at VA Tech it was ILLEGAL to have a gun on campus, unless you were a peace officer on duty? That gun free zone did a lot of good for those students.

JohnWIS...your argument falls short but shows the truest form of gun paranoia. Students go to school to get an education. Does it not occur to gun addicts that there's a time and place for everything and a college campus is for education not for defense?

Stop with that BS argument of perpetual need for defense. Do you need a gun to defend yourself when you take a shower? How about when you are asleep? You'll wake instantly and be alert enough to reach for a gun when the burglar already has his poised on you?

Glib answers to a growing problem solely for the purpose of pandering to the tantrums of the gun addict big babies who go nuts the minute they don't get their way and get to strap on their intimidator.

ewent

Your comments again show your complete ignorance of life in general. Students go to school to get an education, true. They also need to get that education in a safe environment; that is no longer provided. If a loony tune comes to school intent on shooting people, usually carrying the weapon illegally, those folks are trapped like fish in a barrel unless someone has a weapon to defend them. Your solution is for everyone to give up their right of security because of your paranoia and take the hit - sorry, most of us don't feel that way.

As for defend yourself in the shower. Why not? When the bad guy comes to slit your throat you gonna shout out "Wait, time out, I'm in the shower"? Stupid. Asleep? Many, many times that is when you need to defend yourself. Burglar already has his gun poised on you? HIGHLY unlikely. The burglar is going to make all kinds of noise trying to move around in an unfamiliar house in the dark. By and large the homeowner is going to know someone is there long before his is "poised on you". You need to quit making completely ludicrous statements that showcase how your paranoia has completely eliminated your intelligence.

dansu...Your posts need certification. By what degree can you prove your expertise on life? I don't send kids to school for any reason other than to get the education my taxes pay for. Do you? The rest of your post is self-serving defense of the defenseless.

Sending children to school with the expectation that they must be armed is as bad as sending them into a prison knowing they could be gang raped. How stupid does this fearmongering need to get? Maybe where you live there is a need to be perpetually "on guard" for killers with guns. I'm fortunate enough to live in a place where that isn't necessary AND, it's 45 minutes from NY City AND it's more densely populated per square mile than Hong Kong according to the US Census bureau. So please...do get a clue.

I'm educated enough to know when those who possess the least common sense go off the deep end trying to prove what they can't. I'm having a problem imagining someone so paranoid they can't even shower without a gun nearby. I also know that many burglars kill before they steal...I think the true life story of that Kansas family (Clutters) proves that. The movie "In Cold Blood", a true life murder story is the best evidence that there was a homeowner who'd didn't know someone was in their home and the murders took their time killing all 4 people. How many people did Bonnie and Clyde kill across 4 states before they were finally subdued and when they were both of them were armed to the teeth? How many Mafiosi have been armed and still killed as they sat eating dinner?

As for ludicrous statements, I think I've proved you need to bone up on some of the most vicious gun murders. Guns murder.....it's bullets in peoples bodies that provide the fatality. Not the person pointing the gun. Enough with the nonsensical BS.

John, it's not just adults who travel to college campuses. Every day I see little children playing at the UofA Mall. If you want to turn schools into warzones, you will see small children die, and that blood will be on out legislators' hands.

ewent:

I have been reading your posts......and I say this with much respect for you.

You live in a seriously deluded state of mind, of wishing that there was absloute peace in this world. The real world is not like that.

I don't know what may have happened to you, to have this kind of thinking......but it has you engulfed in such a state of unhealthy fear, that you can't even think straight.

There is no reality to what you are saying. And it's doing you absloutely no good.

This is not to insult you, or demean you. But, wherever you get your information, or who may be pumping you full of this crap, is messing you up in the head.

The reality is, is that there are people in every town, city, campus...you name the place...that are simply not sane, and want to hurt people of all ages. You need to face that reality.

You also need to face the reality, that the people who choose to carry a sidearm, is to be able to defend themselves, their families, and even a stranger whose life is suddenly put in danger, no matter wher they may be.

It's not for the reasons you say......and the people who choose to carry, are not the ones causing the problems.

It's not that complicated.

I hope the best for you. Take care...God bless.

John WIS...Dont agree with many of your posts...but this one was very respectful while still giving your point. Not that all of your posts arent, this one was... in particular to me, a gentelmanly approach. Thank you.

SweetAZ:

Thanks. Appreciate that.

I try to approach it with respect shown....towards all.

Toasty Mcgrath:

Sorry......but your statement doesn't cut it.

You want to blame the legislators for not enacting stricter gun laws. Not the criminals.

You want to blame the normal, everyday people who choose to pursue their lives, and live by the rights given to them, including the right from God, and our constitution, to exercis the right to KEEP and BEAR arms, in order to defend ourselves, our families, our neighbors, and even strangers should the need ever arise. Not the criminals.

You want to make it into a "hail of bullets, wildly spewed about".

You have obviously never shot or trained with a gun. You are basing your statement off of "what if" scenario.

You will not confront the criminal element...and place the blame where blame needs to be placed.

Toasty & ewent, once again you guys are so off base with your posts, I should not even respond, but I will. Toasty you are old enough to remember that guns don't kill people, people do. Would you two be more likely to kill someone if you were strapped with a six shooter? If you could honestly tell me how to get guns out of the criminal elements hands for good, then maybe we could talk about limiting who can possess guns. You will not be able to tell me though, so mute argument. If guns were magically gone, then you would see more deaths by machete...just sayin'

John, do you even realize what you're saying? You and PC need to stop trying to change the subject. You're supporting people bringing guns into schools. This isn't "that ulra-liberal Toasty complaining about not having stronger gun laws," this is the government repealing one of the few common-sense laws left. They're sending the message that students need to suit up for BATTLE every day they go to school, like they're going to war. Do you have any idea how @!$%#ing dangerous that is?

I know exactly what I'm talking about.

You...and many like you...are denying men and women their right to bear arms, if they have a permit......even at school. There are many young women who want to be able to protect themselves by carrying a gun, just as there are men.

They absloutely have the right to do so. The problem is, is that legislators who think the same way you do, are standing in their way, and denying them that very freedom.

They are smart enough to realize, that when on campus, they are facing the very real threat of being assaulted, robbed, and raped on any given day. (It's not just only on campus, either).

They are adults. They have the same rights as adults. If they are mature enough to own and handle a firearm, and if they are able to gain a permit to carry...(which they should)...then let it be so.

If someone wants to start a violent battle with them.....they have the right to defend their own lives...and win.

They are not the ones starting the fight.

Toasty McGrath

John, do you even realize what you're saying? You and PC need to stop trying to change the subject. You're supporting people bringing guns into schools. This isn't "that ulra-liberal Toasty complaining about not having stronger gun laws," this is the government repealing one of the few common-sense laws left. They're sending the message that students need to suit up for BATTLE every day they go to school, like they're going to war. Do you have any idea how @!$%#ing dangerous that is?

Are you aware of the FACT that one must be 21 to possess a handgun? Fact that you must be 18 to possess a long gun? Don't let the facts confuse you. If you are talking college, again 21 for handguns and we presume that they are responsible ADULTS by that age. There are other restrictions on those with mental issues so that blows that argument. I see John has already stated much the same.

To clarify... I have no intent to be the first to draw or fire but I do want the option to be the last one to do so.

That's still avoiding the issue. Some might say you're trying to change the subject but I'll gie you the benefit of the doubt. These wingnut legislators want to allow guns in schools. Where children regularly make up a large crowd.

Would that be allow the TEACHERS and staff to be armed and some pro control type is hyping that it would allow everyone, including minors, to possess a firearm? I don't see ANY politician being so stupid as to allow a child to be armed under any circumstance beyond hunting with adult supervision. I don't see a problem with a trained teacher having a concealed weapon on their person at school. Not much different than an armed pilot with the presumption that they passed the background check including mental which I would hope you agree a teacher should have passed already.

Leroy brown: California again, Ohio again, Florida again, New York again, Chicago again, Texas again, Idaho again, Georgia again, New Mexico again, all other States again, including YOUR State again? Unbelievable! Not just Arizona! A couple days ago a Chicago blogger tired to defend his State's gun laws by saying it's prevented gun violence, Yal! (get what I'm say?? the same as your remarks) The fact is this Country is going nuts and a reasonable person now must think of self protection in spite of all the Laws and Law Enforcement, one doesn't seem to work and the other doesn't get there in time to prevent it. Having guns around alcholo or in schools isn't something I promote but look at what's happening and training on gun safety as a "requirement" for ownership of a firearm is. Gun violence is something both anti-gun people and gun owners both deplore!!!! Think of it this way, none of the people involved in these shootings ever thought it would happen to them but it did! The old adage "I would rather be the defendant in a justifiable shooting trial than a victim in a murder trial"...All of this is just SAD, SAD, SAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sure seems to be a lot of Arizonas lately JD, or maybe it's just me. I'm in Canada, but my province unfortunately has the most murders and crime per capita in the country.

leroy

Sure seems to be a lot of Arizonas lately JD, or maybe it's just me. I'm in Canada, but my province unfortunately has the most murders and crime per capita in the country.

What are the odds you have the densest population per hectare/square mile? Also the largest inner city population in poverty?

Sparsest population, only one million people in the entire province. Small but increasingly dangerous cities, high percentage native population.

leroy

Glad to see you respond... eventually you will tell us what your idea of a reasonable gun control law would be... Perhaps you have elsewhere and I haven't read that far tonight.

As to highest murder rates in Canada... I can see MANY major cities in the USA telling you don't have a problem. By native population should we presume "Native Americans" not Canadians? Either way you seem to be describing what I hint at, low income at risk population in a denser population setting likely with a high rate of substance abuse/dependence. Those in that situation would find other ways to commit crime if guns were not available and perhaps more gruesome.

Tumbleweed, you have an excellent point. The vast media rarely addresses this issue of the affect of mind altering drug on young users and the connection violent video games, movies, television programs and
websites. Traditionally, guns in the United States are very easy to ascertain regardless of your mental health or mental condition. Some researchers are concerned that the use of drugs such as Ritalin in children and teens might interfere with normal brain development. Stimulants for ADD/ADHD can trigger or exacerbate symptoms of hostility, aggression, anxiety, depression, and paranoia. People with a personal or family history ofsuicide, depression, or bipolar disorder are at a particularly high risk, and should be carefully monitored when taking stimulants. Also, Stimulant abuse is a growing problem, particularly among teens and young adults. College students take them for a boost when cramming for exams or pulling all-nighters. Others abuse stimulant meds for their weight-loss properties. For parents, if your child is taking stimulants, make sure he or she isn’t sharing the pills or selling them. This not a gun issue but a very serious drug issues and the Pharmaceutical companies only care about profits not children's mental health.

Well said.

The pharmaceutical companies are just American cartels. Their pushers are doctors.

do people realy get high off cactus[es?] just growing wild out there?

capncaveman

do people realy get high off cactus[es?

cactus, cactuses/cacti (in Arizona many people avoid either choice with cactus as both singular and plural.) fungus, fungi. hippopotamus, hippopotamuses

Alcohol is a mind altering drug too.

leroy: I agree with that. But changing the subject won't make the drugs better.

AZ Tumbleweed...I have another theory...Drugs weren't the cause of students in high schools killing other students and teachers. In fact, those midwest school students claimed their fathers taught them gun use. Must have missed a few lessons or two.

The problem today is immaturity. No one wants to admit that allowing 35 year old adults to act like they are still high school teenagers has any consequences. So we have a generation at least of childlike adults who have yet to learn true responsibility for their actions. It doesn't help that the lawyers get them out of any consequence for their actions either.

Law is the only order any country depends on to maintain a civilized society. If laws have no teeth, there is no order and no civilized society. It's that simple.

Arizona tumber--Then please quit taking them.

Let's clear a few things up for all the "political junkies" out there. (definitions courtesy of Houghton-Mifflin).

Conservative adj. 1. Favoring preservation of the existing order. 2.Moderate; cautious. 3.Traditional

Liberal adj. 1. Favoring individual freedom and nonrevolutionary reform. 2. Broadminded or tolerant. 3. Generous; bountiful.

It must be the "broadminded, generous" parts that get to some folks, huh?

Guns don't have political affiliation. They are "non-partisan", don't care about the race of who's pulling the trigger, and will kill equally.

ewent

AZ Tumbleweed...I have another theory...Drugs weren't the cause of students in high schools killing other students and teachers. In fact, those midwest school students claimed their fathers taught them gun use. Must have missed a few lessons or two.

The problem today is immaturity. No one wants to admit that allowing 35 year old adults to act like they are still high school teenagers has any consequences. So we have a generation at least of childlike adults who have yet to learn true responsibility for their actions. It doesn't help that the lawyers get them out of any consequence for their actions either.

Law is the only order any country depends on to maintain a civilized society. If laws have no teeth, there is no order and no civilized society. It's that simple.

I have to agree with you there. People need to take RESPONSIBILITY. Laws are only as good as fair enforcement.

It is more than just midwest children that are doing shooting and coddling them all is the biggest problem. Not allowing a parent to PARENT and parents CHOOSING to not parent are the two largest problems.

Gun crime is non-existent among law abiding citizens FeebleBrain. Congratulations, you just won stupid statement of the day...it's still early though!

LeBOY,,,super said RARE ditz! Compared to the guns out there this is a less problem then almost any city of this size! No matter how many guns oBAMA/holder tried to sell to the drug cartels!

thunder--If a citizen were to engage in gun crime, then the citizen would no longer be a law-abiding citizen. The idea here is that if law-abiding citizens have guns, they will use those guns for legal reasons--such as stopping a person who is engaged in gun crime.

If there is gun crime--meaning that law-abiding citizens need guns--then one would expect that there would be something close to an equal amount of legal gun use in opposition to gun crime. Right?

So, depending on what "it" means--SuperBrain isn't being particularly bright. What is "it" that he is saying is "rare"? Attendance at rap music concerts?

My god what a spin you can throw out! What "it"means? Yet you do not comment on the character assasination leBoy shoved at super with out ANY TYPE of logical debate! You are a waste of time and oxygen!

Lol are you REALLY that stupid thunder? Do you understand the term "law-abiding?" You do? Good, now read SuperBrain's comment again, slowly this time!

Looks like Thunder is proving why some law abiding citizens can't disagree without getting insulting and then when someone continues to disagree and is proven correct, it's Gunfight at OK Corral...roflmao.

SuperBrain...I beg to differ. Most women of wealth who expend their use to El Hubbo who wants a fling end up dead. El Hubbo was law abiding until his coochie coo demanded he dump El Wifo Numero Uno. This isn't an isolated situation. How many men shoot their business partners over money? How many drunks shoot their wives on Friday nights because she complains he spent his paycheck on booze? How many jealous men kill each other when their chief competitor gets a promotion and he doesn't? And it's not just men who use guns to kill. It's just that the number of men who use guns to kill far outnumbers women who do. The male population of gun murderers in US prisons are triple the number of women imprisoned for the same reason.

So...a law abiding citizen is law abiding until someone gets in their way. Then, it's as simple as one gun shot and the obstacle is removed. Too bad most of the obstacles are human beings and the obstacle remove has no right to take another human being's life, right?

ewent- would you kindly come around and allow yourself to become in obstacle in front of me or my car? And the best part is, I won't even bring a gun........!!!

j burk...really? If you dont have an opinion productive to the conversation...just hush. Your trolling and inference that you would run this person over is very inflammatory.

Sweetaz- ewent is insulting anyone who has a different opinion. I am simply Following his lead, voicing my opinion. Seems the constitution also covers that. I'm thinking that would actually be 'productive' in eliminating obstacles such as ewent.........LOL

jburk~ Lol, yes, free speech is definitely a right....HOWEVER....being nice, while expressing an opinion is far more fruitful...dont you think?

Jay,,BINGO!

As you can see by the name...I came from AZ. Sorry dude...a lot to "knock". Resorting to name calling...throwing in the "conservative" word only seems to prove his point dont you think? Then to call his town "retarded" when you have someone like Jan Brewer running AZ is kind of an oxymoron isnt it?

SweetAZ...Most Americans don't knock AZ. We all know that in today's political world, we are all being fed ideology until we choke on it. God help us all if we don't view politicians first by their ideology and not by their willingness to do the will of the people who elect them.

Personally, it's my belief that most Americans just want to get on with their lives in a safe, clean, healthy society where they can raise their kids to be decent, responsible people who can take up the standards and values Americans are most often envied for.

Only the dirty dog ideologues want to force feed their ideologies on the rest of us until we regurgitate it to their specifications.

It is much easier to stop the production and sale of guns and ammunition instead. No guns, no gun crimes. Don't believe it? Look at nations with strict gun control laws. And no, they don't just pick up baseball bats and use them instead to ramp up the murder rate to former levels. Check the stats!

NO MORE GUNS!!

@Shandril

I would suggest you do some actual homework on this topic. Australia recently took firearms from citizens, that were legally owning them mind you, and stabbing/beating deaths doubled. Theft has also increased substantially. You should be agreeing with Freedom's stance on this topic, the more holes filled blocking criminals, the safer everyone will be. Banning guns has not worked in any country in the world, especially after they have already been in the hands of the people.

Zerlak Thats NRA bullcrap.

Seriously, someone just made that up, sent it out in NRA mass emails, and when they tried to spoon-feed it to you you just let them shove it down your throat.

@Tactical

Except for my sources come from Australia, as I have family that live there, and not from the NRA at all. Sooner or later you will have to come to terms with the relavence of firearms in today society and that the 2nd Ammendment is still a very applicable right. I'm not advocating for everyone to own/carry a firearm but simply that you accept that the right is there and that people should be able to.

Furthermore, I'm not even a member of the NRA, nor do I even subscribe to their newsletter. I just grow tired of seeing individuals make blanket statements about something they do not understand, and do not care to understand.

I know so many good law abiding people who own guns and I never would be concerned about them shooting me. I don't own a gun but please don't tell any criminals about this. Plain & simple.

zerlok--------I live in Perth one month each year and have never heard what you have said from anyone.

@Tactical

First things first, please use the actual spelling of my name, your blatent attempt to mock me by purposefully misspelling my name does not help your credibility in the slightest.

Furthermore, I have family that live there 24/7, 365 days of the year and they are the ones that have told me the numbers published in their local newspapers, as well as the actual images of the papers when we talk to each other over skype. I'm sorry but their word is FAR more credible than yours, especially considering you only live there a whole month out of the year. If you do not wish to carry a gun, or own one, that is seriously fine by me. I do not wish you to be forced into one and I don't wish anyone to be forced into one but please understand that individuals whom are capable, both mentally and physically, should be capable of owning and carrying a firearm. I'm not advocating the complete loss of gun control either, I like the idea of keeping firearms out of the hands of criminals and the mentally crazy, or anyone who would not treat a firearm with the proper respect it deserves. I treat my firearms the same way as I do my driving, while in operation of it, I control a machine that is capable of destroying lives if not treated appropriatly. Life would be better if individuals would actually view their automobiles in a light such as this and then we would really see fewer accidental deaths in this country.

There are virtually no school shootings. Every now and then, one happens--but there are thousands of schools, and the rate of teen violence has greatly lowered (depending on the locality--there are exceptions) as well as the murder rate having greatly fallen across the board.

Reading about such incidents is like reading about shark attacks--the incidents get publicized because they are sensational. If there had been a big fist-fight that didn't involve a celebrity, we wouldn't hear about it. If there are a lot of people banding together to help one another, we hear very little about it and usually as some kind of "human interest" story, quickly forgotten.

If we are "mentally sick," it is in our obsession with sensationalist stories from across our very, very large country. We can blow up three completely unrelated incidents of stranger kidnapping into a "trend"--though stranger kidnapping is exceedingly rare. We are media-obsessed and quick to draw patterns from random stories rather than looking at larger patterns of behavior and making more informed judgments.

We may be stupider--but I doubt that we've become torture-liking.

Hey Homesick, I agree with the harsh penalties for anyone who commits a crime with a gun. The part about easily stolen is a trap to make gun ownership a risk, punishable by law. Stolen is stolen the degree of difficulty has no bearing on the fact something is STOLEN. Who will determine what is punishable by law???

Maybe you should include proper moral training for ghetto dwelling gangstas who could care less about your sissy left-wing attitude. Punish the responsible and moral Americans for the behavior of the out-of-control, reckless minority criminals, that's the liberal idea of justice.

jasperark...It figures someone pro-gun views enforcement of accountability for their possessions would view it as "punishment". If someone owned drugs..and those drugs are stolen...is the owner punished? If gun owners are so moral and so responsible, why are guns becoming a major problem in large cities and even in the backwoods areas of the country? Sorry, you can't define punishment in one breath and reinterpret responsibility in the next to suit gun ownership.

Jasperark: Really? You KNOW these people came from the ghetto? I dont recall seeing that anywhere in the article. Pretty big assumption right? I think the idea of justice is this...there must be something that we can do as a society to gain a modicum of control in this. What that answer is, I dont know...BUT what I DO know, is that casting aspersions onto someone...for socioeconomic status and mental capacity...with ZERO information provided, only serves to show that you are the person that we need to be concerned with....since YOUR morals are the ones we should all follow right? SMDH

ewent- there are people who LEGALLY own drugs that were bought at a store, just likes guns are purchased legally. And if those drugs are stolen, we try to punish the thieves, not the legal owner. So, what is your point in trying to tie the two together?

What part of the problem is it with BAD people, and not BAD guns can you not fathom???????? You are a coward, scared of boogie men that do not exist. Your type of person is what fills nut wards all over this country. The sky is falling in MENTAL-ity

You do realize that was just a fairy tale, right?

As usual, nothing of any value to add to the story so just look for the viner who makes the least little Biblical reference and attack their Beliefs.

*** yawn ***

Just pointing out that we're dealing with real-life issues, not fantasy ones.

You've done plenty of pointing in plenty of posts on plenty of articles. Give your finger a rest already and leave us Believers alone. Our faith is our life. You don't believe - so what??? Old news. We have a right to express our opinions here in the way that we see fit just as you do without the derails because that is exactly what your post is - a cheap derail. Something done by trolls. Are you a troll or aren't you??? You've just demanded for someone to stick to the issues in #11. Try taking your own advice for change. This happened in your state of Arizona. You've said very little here regarding that from what I can see and for all anyone knows, you might be just a fairy tale yourself.

So what? I can think of 3,000 reasons every September 11 why I should criticize religious belief. And I didn't derail the topic, Buck did. Complain to him if you have to.

Buckdaddy did not derail and I won't complain to him. I voted him up. Any Christian reading his post understands exactly what he meant. But no matter to you since "Bible" was in it, gotta hurry up and insult the guy. Do you have full understanding of every single post that you read??? For someone that likes to throw stones at other viners regarding intolerance, your posts are some of the most intolerant as well as obsessive and I still don't see much in the way of contribution here from you, Arizonan.

Yeah, no doubt, Chefaz. These rabid, evangelical atheists don't realize that when they point the finger, they have three pointing back at them.

How amazing it must be have this deep abiding hope that you blink out of existence when you die, and yet not even consider that such an end makes this life absolutely pointless. Everything the evangelical atheist gains in this life will be left to another who did not labor for them. That means the highest good for the evangelical atheist is pleasure. Kind of a "let us eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die" kind of mentality. And the thing is, too much pleasure hastens the day when the body surrenders to decay. Not only does evangelical atheism require more faith than does Christianity, but they are inherenlty pretty dense about the whole thing. I mean, they expect they will blink out of existence, and have the gall to bash those who hold to the belief that we are eternal, and there is a day of judgement coming. I suppose if they can browbeat and bash people of faith, it takes their view off of how pathetic is their worldview.

Always such a great pleasure to see you, Levi. And as usual, you've said it so much better!!! Very well written.

They should hand out loaded guns to everyone as they enter the club.

You are being sarcastic, right? Otherwise, we should all feel that gangs are just misunderstood. As long as they make sweet music together then no harm, no foul.

yes. we should all be like the Middle East with their lax gun laws. Give everyone an AK47, then our society would be as safe as theirs!

Sharia law, brought to you by the NRA!

That is the most asenine statement posted yet.

john - growns statement is no more silly than your own.

The problem in the middle east is religious zealotry and religious separatism... NOT guns. They would still be using muskets in the middle east if not for Russia. Their culture is not stable enough for "development" or "advancement" without an OUTSIDE influence. For the most part, the middle east is still living in the bronze age... and Africa is still in the stone age. I use Africa... since the US military is involved in four African countries... and US troops are dying for nothing more than natural resources. Where's the media coverage?

It takes a stable and rewarding environment for social development and advancement to occur. Neither exist in the middle east or africa for that matter. If they could not BUY the guns and "stuff"... they would not be able to make it for themselves. The technology would be beyond their capabilities. No stable environment exists to build a factory... WITHOUT another country doing it for them.

I mean... they still practice real witchcraft with human sacrifice and a belief it works, women can't drive, stoning occurs when a woman is raped and she will not marry her rapist.

Come on people! ... shed your poor American education and WAKE UP.

I know, I know... for most of you lemmings... that will be impossible... since jersey short didn't tell you it is okay.

Liverpool,,,AMEN!

And conservatives NEVER engage in crime right? Good grief.

SweetAZ

"And conservatives NEVER engage in crime right? Good grief."

Care to expound on that?

SweetAZ

"And conservatives NEVER engage in crime right? Good grief."

Care to expound on that?

John WIS....sure! How many would you like? There are so many to choose from. I will start with just a few...if you need more, I can certainly provide them as well.

1. Abramoff: Sorry to pick such an obvious one, but kind of had to go there. Convicted of defrauding American Indian tribes...amongst other things.

2. Coughlin: Major of Hazlet, NJ. Convicted of extortion. Dang it, hate it when that happens.

3. Ravenel: SC State Treasurer, convicted of cocaine possession...oops.

4. Thomas Noe: Bush/Cheney campaign chair...theft, corrupt activity, money laundering, forgery

As I stated, before casting stones with regard to liberal crime, may wanna check your own back yard. My statement was with regard to Liverpool's comment...calling someone a mouth breather and slamming Obama...shall I expound further? Everyone has bones in their closet...whether or not you have an entire graveyard is another story.

And...as an aside....I can actually see both sides of the gun issue. Im all for the respectful handling of weapons and the right for protection (firm believer), it is when weapons fall into the hands of idiots that I have an issue. With that being said, I would still take my chances with a gun toting nut than to deal with the continued fallout of the Repuplican greed...I can survive a bullet...I cannot, WE cannot...continue to survive as a nation with the greed (and the associated "white collar"crime) we are being presented with now.

Oh...I see.

So we should become more liberal......because of the reason and people you stated above?

Do you slam the Democrats...liberals...socialists...as much as the conservatives?......or are you just out to throw around the "Republican greed" mantra?.....or both?

I don't care what title someone has by their name......if it's corrupted and wrong...call it what it is. But don't sit there with the bullsh!t sarcasm with your nose in the air. Call it what it is.

Absolutely I do! Wrong is wrong, no matter how you slice it and I certainly do not condone criminal activity of any sort...regardless of political affiliation. I say prosecute the liver out of them...ALL of them. My point was this...if folks take a right slant, does it excuse poor behavior...um no and neither does left slant BS. No nose in the air...I did exactly of what you accused me of not doing...I called it like it is.

Liberalism...if you aren't liberal when you are young...you miss out on so much passion in your life. If you don't become more conservative when you get older, you lose out on your $$. I like to think of myself as a cross between the two...and certainly do not have an issue calling BS when I hear it...or read it:)

At least we agree on calling out the corrupted...regardless of affiliation.

Believe me......I had plenty of passion for life when young...(still do).....but very little of it had anything to do with being liberal. And as for becoming more conservative as I got older......has alot more to do with than just money.

Couldn't agree with you more, one of the problems is they don't report other crimes as much. They wanna make the gun look bad. I've handled gun's since I was 12, taught my children gun safety at 12. No problem's here.

Your right, they are thugs looking for power.We have no idea is armed. People who are use to firearms handle the responsibility like cops or army soldier. The same thing will happen again . I don't know the answer, maybe don't go to a bar like that.

All I have to say is "How is that let every moron be able to buy a gun laws working for you Arizona?". You seem to always hear about GROUPS of people getting gunned down in that state. It's probably safer to take a stroll through Syria than Arizona right now.

Guns and alcohol... GO SOUTHERN STATE REDNECKS! Maybe if everyone down there has guns they will kill each other off.

Well sandy we like our laws in Arizona, at least we have the right to protect ourselves here, not like the groups of people who live and are being shot and killed it the safer cities of LA, Detroit, Camden, NYC, Washington DC just to name a few of the liberal better places to be safe and sound in and take a stroll in. Of course you'll never understand that would you? That these two criminals are just that and gun laws don't make a bit of difference when people like this decide to act. Which is why is it so much safer in the liberal's cities/states than it is here in Arizona, NOT! So just stay in your little hidie hole and keep thinking Obama is second coming of Christ and things will be a okay! Again another liberal fantasy. By the way everyone down here pretty much has guns and guess what, we're saving the bullets for the Marxist, liberal, Socialists so we can save the country from total ruin by Obama supporters.

Wow Darrell you say you are saving your bullets for liberal's and socialists ? I guess you don't like Public Schools, Public roads, Fire departments, Police departments, The internet you are using or any other socialistic program huh ? Maybe we should all live out on the prairie in covered wagons. Keep the crazy stupid in A.Z Ok!

Darrell I could'nt have said it better. If you want to know how I feel look at Darrells , Mar 3 11:56 it is exactly how I feel!

That 13 were hurt before the perps ran away shows to me that most of those at the bar were indeed following the law and not carrying- otherwise return fire would have errupted.

Isn't it ironic that a person from Missouri (the home of Jesse James) is spouting off about SOUTHERN STATE REDNECKS?

Well Peter, just what makes you think that Marxist, Liberal, Socialism is responsible for Public Schools, Public roads, Fire departments, Police departments? If anything, they the Marxist, Liberal, Socialist crowd are responsible for the destruction of our educational system. As far as fire and police go, they have nothing to do with their creation or function and if anything, they've tried to undermine both services. Your definition of Socialism and it's service has nothing to do with the political evil under its title in use by the current burden on society. A lot of different meanings of socialism and it does not apply to the infrastructure you are attempting to note it does. As far as keeping the crazies in AZ we don't want them, just let them stay where you are and we'll deal with our own troubles. We think that there's really something wrong with your kind of thinking. And you want to keep making Arizona your target, remember one thing. A great many of the current residents in this state have moved here to get away from people like you, meaning they're from other parts of the country and are fed up with the way liberalism taken hold in their home states and created welfare, entitlement, big government supporters. Keep your noses out of our business and comments at home, in your Marxist paradise and when you're at rock bottom with nowhere to go, maybe then you'll start understanding what Socialism is.

Old "sandy" there is another one who doesn't know which way a compass points.LOL. I swear to God man...why don't you people learn geography first... then enter the conversation.LOL. Sandy....do you know in which direction the sun rises? How about where the sun sets?

When it begins to set Sandy walk outside and look that way and over there about 800 or 1000 miles will be "Arizona" and Arizona being to the west Sandy. The west where the sun sets.LOL. When the sun rises Sandy walk outside and watch it come up and that will be "east"..."east" Sandy is where the sun rises. Now... look to your right...to your right Sandy is "south".....now turn right again and guess what? that puts you facing west again and guess what Sandy over there is " Arizona". If they had built in geography class's in Sandy's dashboard gps maybe Sandy wouldn't be so confused about where in the world he lives. So its not poor Sandy's fault now is it?.LOL.