You know, I could honestly care less about what folks believe, or not believe. I'm fine with them all, to each their own. But honestly, coming from a neutral point of view, they seem to be enticing the exact same "bigotry" they claim to be against.

We don't have faith in stories designed to command obeisance, we do have hope that people will one day be able to live together in peace (which won't happen as long as people think their "god" tells them they are the best), and as for charities, I guess you didn't bother to google "atheist charities" before you wrote this.

Interesting that a spokesman for an Islamic group was more tolerant of the billboards than the local rabbi. So much for Muslim extremism.

I have to wonder why the billboards are necessary though. One doesn't "convert" to atheism. One either believes or one doesn't. It's not even really a choice. Why would you need to advertise?

Hope has NOTHING to do with religion. One can always hope for things to get better, be resolved, change , not to change without invisible men, invisible places, incense, UFOs, icons, etc etc.

There is a huge difference between being an atheist and having faith or having hope.

Not believing in make believe does not mean that one is hopeless. It also does not mean that one is without morals. It means that one is logical. That we are influenced by rationale and humanity not mythology and legends.

Why are religious people so threatened by those who don't believe in your god and want to point out there is better way?

If it is ok for Jehovah witnesses and Mormons to knock on my front door or to broadcast 300 to 500 hours weekly of over the public airwaves of Christian Television programming, ore excuse the pun, God only knows how many hours of Radio Programming...why are you so afraid of a couple of billboards?

Is it because you're afraid that the emperor isn't wearing clothes?

I think the signs were meant to give courage and strength to "closet" atheists who may be living in these Jewish communities.

Sean, you're making a lot of assumptions there, bucko.

And you are doing precisely that about which you are complaining. You know absolutely nothing about me. I am a Believer, a person of faith. You have absolutely no way to know what my life experiences have been. . . .zilch, nada. What hubris!

Odd that people who insist on not having someone's point of view rammed down their throats are doing that exact thing.

Actually, it's not all that odd. Everyone believes their point of view is the correct one.

How can people really believe that? How can you believe that when you die, your soul doesn't continue on forever?

If religion is false, how come throughout the history of the world there have been reports of people seeing, and even talking to, ghosts and spirits? There are many people walking the earth right now today who have seen them. Why is it, that if you were to put all of these people on a lie detector test, while recounting their stories, you would get a 100% of them telling the truth?

Ok I dont believe in fairy tales either but this atheist group is not as different from the religious nuts as they think.. shoving their beliefs down they're throats and purposefully creating conflict and getting people upset. Yes, religion is stupid but any rational person shouldn't care what the next man believes.

hungrymongoose

I think you are on to something. Belief in the Bible or some other religious scripture is about the same as belief in ghosts or spirits .... based on here say and word of mouth rather than on rational thought and provable events. Base your belief also on answered prayers and ignore all the unanswered prayers. Teach your children that faith is more important than evidence or rational thinking and, while you are at it, tell them that if they don't believe the impossible that they are sinners, that they will be denied everlasting life and entry into the Kingdom of Heaven, that they are going to Hell. Shun them if they doubt that which doesn't make sense. Without the threats how can religion survive?

Sorry atheists, having hope IS "make-believe". You have to have faith to have hope. If you do have hope, you have your own little faith in some higher power, but fail (or choose not) to recognize it.

Wait, I'm confused. If atheism ISN'T a religion how could "the traditional victims of religious bigotry" be engaging in religious bigotry?!??! You can't have it both ways. Either atheism is a religion or there was no religious bigotry.

Atheism is a religion in the same way that "not collecting stamps" is a hobby.

It constantly amazes me how there are people even today who seriously believe that to not believe in one or more deities means that you must somehow be lacking in human qualities. I've heard people claim that without religion we cannot have morals (false, by the way), and in this case, it must be impossible to hope for something. As if embracing rationalism and intellectualism, which demands asymptotic atheism, means that you cannot possibly experience the full range of human emotions and attributes as someone who is a theist.

Yet somehow, the confirmation bias is so strong that in the heat of the moment we forget to recognize that immoral acts are completely independent of religion. Even under the weight of Europe's godlessness, crime statistics and comparable, if not less, than that of the US. The most religious parts of the word experience the most sectarian violence (correlation, not necessarily causation)- I'm talking about Africa here, when the theistic morality hypothesis suggests the opposite should occur. Terrorists blow themselves up every day in the name of Jihad, and somehow, there are those who assert that the most heinous acts must be reserved for atheists, who do not believe and therefore must be lacking in empathy, hope, kindness, or morality.

And how does our personal beliefs (or nonbeliefs) about certain cosmic origins somehow make us less kind to strangers or lack morality? Because a deity isn't holding a figurative gun to our head to show kindness and empathy so that we don't burn eternally in the afterlife? Is that what genuine kindness and morality is, doing the right thing only because someone is watching our every move, only to judge us later? Can you image how grim a view of humanity someone must have to believe that the nobler human qualities can only be brought about by some form of coercion?

@Sean - youre too funny. You did exactly what Juanita said, perhaps she was right about you after all...

Anyways, if they want to spend money to advertise let em. Not sure it was well spent $$ to tell people they have a choice and that there is nothing out there but oh well. Atheism is just the next up and coming religion....

It amazes me that atheists always assume people of faith are ignorant. Study history people of faith have made invaluable contributions to philosoply, science, mathematics. Is it possible to attain the highest degree in one's academic field and still be a person of faith? Some of the greatest works of humanity have been accomplished by people who believe in God. Why are atheists so threatened by people of faith?

A few references to that claim would be nice differnet. I've seen MANY references to religion being the cause of murders (Crusades, The Thirty Years War, French Wars of Religion, Lebanese Civil War, ect.. ect..) but atheism not so much. If your referring to Stalin or Hitler or one of the other megalomaniacs then atheism had little to do with it, they were killing for pure greed and power.

rzabel

Look at Rick Santorum. People like him is why I shudder at the thought of faith. Especially when there's even a slight chance of him becoming president. He lacks the ability to understand the separation of Church and State. And so do many of his supporters. Not all, but a good bit.

The billboards are intended to help atheists 'come out'...because the simple fact of the matter is, ignorant people will still discriminate against us because they think that to be atheist is to be immoral or unethical. In fact, just the opposite is true...the vast majority of us are well-read, thoughtful, and kind human beings, far more so than people who give lip-service to the religion they were brainwashed into, and having 'said' that they're such and such religion, believe that they have no further duty to be honest, kind, and tolerant...
An atheist group I belong to posted a link to a quiz on religious questions, and what made me laugh was that I missed only one of the twenty questions, because I didn't know who was a 19th century evangelical pioneer...like I care who the nutcase was...
however, when broken down statistically into the groups who were most knowledgeable about religion, atheists scored far higher than any other group...FAR higher...

So we're aware of religions, because we've looked at most of them and rejected them for the silly superstitious drivel that they are...and, as Mohandas Ghandi said: I like your Christ but I do not like your Christians...they are so very unchristlike...'

"We’re not particularly disturbed about it,” said Ibrahim Hooper, spokesman for the Council on American Islamic Relations. "We believe it’s their First Amendment right to put them up. … Obviously they placed them to be provocative, but that’s also their right."

Wow... the Islamic community is more tolorant and protective of First Admendment rights than the Jewish community. Ironic no?

"Science flies men to the moon, religion flies men into buildings"

Athiests don't blow up school busses full of children.

Nor do they behead people .

They don't excommunicate people from their small towns, or their places of employment.

They quit horrible drug and alcohol addictions out of their sheer determination.

They don't beat their wives and children as much because of some right they think they are granted by some god.

Most of the ones I have known have a harder time finding work, as many get assistance through their religious organizations network.

Most are very quiet about their belief system as we are outnumbered by those who will shun us, even as others talk of their faith daily on the job, within families, and even when out for a beer or diner without fear of verbal attack.

Athiests don't mock any science that has brought us so many wonderful things just because it contradicts something they have "faith" in.

It has been proven that as the Salem witch trials, and similar ones were taking place in Europe, there was a hallucinogenic mold growing on the commonly consumed rye grain called "ERGOT".

No one knows what people may have come in contact with when these books were written that may have caused a similar effect.

Anyone who could write back then was considered a wise man, so there were more than likely some who could read and write who were at, or even be below average intelligence who were looked upon as wise men.

I am an Athiest, and I respect all other faiths, until they bother or harm others or myself.

I respect and keep quiet during prayers at holiday dinners, weddings, and funerals as all Athiests do.

Who do I harm by being an Athiest? No one.

Who do I try to convert? No one.

There is nothing to be gained by converting anyone, except maybe reducing the pool of hatred and loathing people have toward us. There is no one asking for tithes or donations.

I have been very charitable to those around me in need in my life no matter what they have believed in.

I have never been ripped off in business by an Athiest, I have for over $20,000 by what I call "bible thumpers". 3 of them in a row.

Athiests are not into Witchcraft, Satinism, or any other supernatural Vodoo crap by principal alone. If we believed in that, why wouldn't we just go with God ?

I am saying that Athiests are good people. I cannot say that about any other religion as a whole, and that is the saddest thing of all.

differnet

Yeah, except atheism was responsible for 70,000,000+ deaths during the last century.

Bull @!$%#.

rzabel

It amazes me that atheists always assume people of faith are ignorant. Study history people of faith have made invaluable contributions to philosoply, science, mathematics. Is it possible to attain the highest degree in one's academic field and still be a person of faith? Some of the greatest works of humanity have been accomplished by people who believe in God. Why are atheists so threatened by people of faith?

Name some examples please.

Some people hold the mistaken belief that atheists are not charitable people. However, our giving may just not be as visible because it is spread out over many different charitable organizations, none of which keep records about what percent of the donations they received came from atheist donors.

Kiva.org is a non-profit that makes micro-loans to individuals around the world to help them get out of poverty. The people who loan the money do not receive any interest on the money they loan -- they just do it to help someone have a better life. It turns out that the largest community of lenders on Kiva.org is made up of people who classify themselves as "Atheists, Agnostics, Skeptics, Freethinkers, Secular Humanists and the Non-Religious" (their 19,667 members have loaned a total of $6,534,500). The second largest community of Kiva.org lenders is the "Kiva Christians" (their 8,859 members have loaned $3,764,000).

Stier could not immediately be reach for comment, but The Brooklyn Paper quoted him as saying, "I don’t want to get involved in this."

Oops...too late there, pal.

Tolerance for the beliefs of others (or non belief) has to be the foundation of civilization. Otherwise we're no better than apes screeching at each other from opposite sides of the river.

Juanita, bait meet hook, hook meet fish. Just because people refuse to believe in fairy tales doesn't mean they have no faith. I have faith that my son's teeth will grow after his milk teeth have fallen. I have faith that the sun comes up every morning, even when cloudy and rainy. I have faith that water is wet and rocks are hard. I have faith that my parachute will open when I pull the cord. Faith is knowing your car will start when you turn the key. I have faith in my heart and not in ANY RELIGION built by man. Faith is something built upon proven outcomes and not fairy tale wishing pie in the sky. Faith is not preaching pauperism all the while hoarding capital in banks. Hypocrisy means saying one thing all the while doing different and proves itself against faith. Buyer beware.

I don't understand how putting a bill board is being equally bigoted as religious fools, as some people seem to suggest. Atheists are not showing up on doorsteps and evangelizing, they are not shoving their non-belief into public policy like the foolish Catholic church does, they are not discriminating gays or others based on their lack of belief. Just putting up a bill board is offensive and bigoted ? Thats stupid.

I find it funny that atheists organizations are acting like every religious institutions. They have funders, they have P.R. and then they go doing offensive things near other relegious institutions. If you are an atheist thats your right just like any one who has a right be any religion they choose. They should stop being like the religious zealots and cramming atheism down people throats.

Atheism is a religion in the same way that "not collecting stamps" is a hobby.

Not the same. I never heard one who doesn't collect stamps tell a philatelist that what he's doing is wrong...
People would probably be more accepting if (some) atheists wouldn't exhibit such a hostile behavior. (Some) gays behave the same way. A change of attitude would make it easier to root for their cause.

juanita dominguez: Atheists: don't have faith (don't believe in God), hope (because they don't have faith, they have no reason to hope), and they certainly don't have charity (never have heard of Atheist's Charities) and they want to increase their numbers? Why? So they can all get together and ridicule those of us that have faith?

What a dense, bigoted, and ignorant statement.

First, I'd like to point out something that although is not an original thought of mine, nonetheless true. If you believe in your god but do not believe in other people's gods, say the Norse, Greek, or Roman gods, then you too are an atheist, you just believe in one more god than others.

With that out of the way... wow. No reason to 'hope' if you have not faith. The level of ridiculous in that statement is astounding. No charity either? Huh, here I thought when I volunteer every week to go into a poorer neighborhood in my city, to help teach children in schools that don't have the money to afford real science curriculum and do science projects with them... I was being charitable with my time. I thought the same thing when I donate to help fund cancer research, both the Jimmy Fund and Leukemia and Lymphoma Society... as well as to help our troops and their families through the Fisher House Foundation.

But you really showed me, your ignorance certainly trumps my reason and logic. I've seen the light.

It amazes me that atheists always assume people of faith are ignorant.

You shouldn't be amazed when people like in post 1 keep proving it.

. Just putting up a bill board is offensive and bigoted ? Thats stupid.

The funny thing is, people don't seem to realize the billboard isn't even directed at religious people - it's directed at "closet" atheists who are too afraid to come out in a heavily religious community. It's a message of solidarity.

(never have heard of Atheist's Charities)

http://www.kiva.org/team/atheists

how about this one?

But honestly, coming from a neutral point of view, they seem to be enticing the exact same "bigotry" they claim to be against.

Atheists or believers? That term sure is thrown around a lot here, isn't it? Because bigotry is bigotry, whether coming from the mouth of an atheist or a religious person.

To say that there are no atheist charities or no atheists contributing to charities is just a supposition because you never hear them taking credit for donating, like the Christians do. BTW, one of the biggest philanthropists in the country are the Freemasons.

@differnet

Yes, you are confused. Here's the quote from the article with the important bit highlighted:

"It has been very disconcerting to see that the traditional victims of religious bigotry have become the purveyors of religious bigotry," said Silverman, who was raised in the Jewish faith.

The man speaking was raised Jewish. Jews are pretty widely recognized as the traditional victims of religious bigotry. He was speaking of the Jewish people/person responsible for blocking the ad.

As far as "disgracing" anyone's religion . . . really? Are your god and your faith so weak that being called a myth is a "disgrace"? If your religion, and your faith in that religion, can't withstand an assault that anemic, then you have bigger problems than a billboard.

That's because people of faith are ignorant. Not all of them, sure, but religion in and of itself is the suspending of logic to believe that mythology is real. What is the difference between paganism and Christianity? Most Christians could give a whole host of reasons of how they are different, but in all actuality, is the better question: is there a difference?

I hate how people believe that ignorance is a synonym for stupidity. There are plenty of smart people out there who believe in god, but then again, there were plenty of smart people who thought slavery was okay(Thomas Jefferson for example).

Sinister Phnx, try Sir Isaac Newton for one, Leonardo da Vinci is another. Oh how about Nicolaus Copernicus, William Turner, Galileo Galile, or John Wallis. There are just as many inventors, philosophers, mathematicians, and thinkers who are of faith as those without faith.

Something I have have found interesting is that those of faith are as accepting of those without faith as those without faith are accepting of those with faith. Everyone wants to complain about how " no one respects my views". Well if you want one to respect your views, have a little respect for the opposing view, even though you don't agree. Whether or not you believe is strictly up to you, how you treat people of different faiths is also up to you. Be respectful of others and you'll likely get that respect back, even if it's as simple a sign as saying nothing at all.

What is the difference between paganism and Christianity?

The difference is that pagans don't go around bashing others and rather stay within their own circle. They also avoid atheists for the same reasons.

Atheist proselytizers are insulting. It is just that. Atheist fundamentalists have decided that, "There is no God," when they themselves admit that it is an untestable declaration; untestable by whatever standards they may require, given that they have set up a false premise. For starters, few bother to be specific in defining "God". Secondly, far too many atheists declare that belief in a Transcendent Awareness is a "fairy tale" when it is no different to declare that belief in a "mind" is a fairy tale.

I agree that far too many theists employ the same tactics of ridicule, insults, self-righteousness, hubris and disdain, but I don't see how that makes fundamentalist atheists any more insightful.

@storm1:

Sorry atheists, having hope IS "make-believe". You have to have faith to have hope. If you do have hope, you have your own little faith in some higher power, but fail (or choose not) to recognize it.

You do not need faith to have hope, at least, not faith in a deity. Perhaps faith in humanity. There are thousands upon thousands of scientists who have faith that technology will create a better tomorrow, for example, but they have no faith in God or religion generally. You could say that their faith in the collective human capacity to innovate, invent and improve upon the extant conditions that we inhabit is a faith in a higher power, but a faith in God it is not...

As for atheist's causing widespread bloodshed, you can try and obfuscate it or reject it all you want, but it's true. Pol Pot routinely slaughtered Buddhist monks for inciting "religious fervor" among the common people in Cambodia. Mao did the same-- and if you can't see that the Chinese regime is still forcefully implementing an atheistic world view on their subjects, then I have one word for you: Tibet. Russia, during their revolution, also targeted religious institutions and religious minorities for "purging." Remember that the statement "Religion is the opiate of the masses," was a quote from Karl Marx-- communism, and the resulting deaths from its inception, expansion, evolution and decline are attributable to an atheistic belief system. In as much as the average knight was fighting for God in the crusades, so too was the average soldier fighting for an atheist world-view with the expansion of communism.

Do I believe in God? Yes. But it is a philosophical belief rather than a religious one. Religion is a corruption of the concept of God to satisfy a given culture's interpretation of the divine. It doesn't help that the majority of religions utilize empirically false mythologies as a basis for their belief system (talking snakes, magic fruit, incestuous expansion of the human race, wooden arks created by one man and his family that somehow contained all 6.5 million + land animals on earth and their food for 40 days and nights of flooding, etc). These mythologies do not (and cannot) pass scientific analysis and therefore must be interpreted as allegories or exaggerations, not literal truth. As a result, I reject religions (while studying them voraciously) and accept an altogether different interpretation of the divine that is grounded in philosophical explorations of the concept and tempered by scientific truth.

"Science flies men to the moon, religion flies men into buildings"

Athiests don't blow up school busses full of children.

Nor do they behead people .

They don't excommunicate people from their small towns, or their places of employment.

Sure hold on, Let me get Stalin/Mao on the line..

@juanita - In order for a church to qualify for property tax exemptions they must be a charitable institution.

Be a public charity instead of a private charity

Be a public charity instead of a private charity

Wow, there are some awfully bigoted Atheists posting on this thread! If I only went by the comments on this post, I'd think that Atheism has nothing to offer but contempt and ridicule - why should I give up my faith for THAT??? How "logical" is it to call someone ignorant and brainwashed, then expect them to accept you? Be honest now, it's not very logical, is it? That's one less thing Atheism has to offer.

Sinister - Hitler, Stalin and Mao Tse Tung were athiests. Not professed, but they didn't believe in God.

I always wondered what would happened if Atheist wanted to go out in public and act religious (pray,preach, breach the landscape with literature. Someone once said that the most bias was seen on Sunday morning and practiced by religions. Ironic, the "godless killer Muslims", seems to be alright with the billboards and see them for what they are--a 1st amendment right issue. For the person that spoke of charity: When Jesus spoke of charity, he was speaking of the love one carry in their hearts, not the charity in their pocketbooks. Too many of the "

Toasty McGrath gets my vote for Quote of the Day!

1.16

Let them have their billboards. If you are strong in your faith, it will have absolutely no effect on you. They are as entitled to the first amendment rights as anyone else, however, intentionally trying to turn someone away from God, to me, is the most evil thing one could do. Satan has made a career of it.

Atheists don't have faith in god because he doesn't exist. we have hope though, anybody can hope for anything. I hope i get a promotion at work. I hope my wife doesn't get a serious illness. And we certainly give to charity. Religious groups often have used charity as recruitment tool (look what god gave you, join us). Atheists don't need charity to score points for some supposed afterlife. We give time and money to charities all the time though. Every week money comes out of my paycheck automatically to benefit a local sexual assault crisis center, and most of the people who use teh center are victims of supposedly god-loving religious people.

I have read many of the comments above and found many of them to be downright amusing, from both the Atheist and non Atheist point of view. I actually found ignorance in many of the comments from both sides. Especially the Atheists calling believers ignorant! I am a believer. It does not matter what I believe in, but the fact is that I do believe. I am a 20 U.S. Navy vet with service in Vietnam and the 1st Gulf war, and I have seen more than my share of so called foxhole Atheists. These are people who will swear there is no God or Heaven but when faced with imminent death will pray there is no Hell. Just like an old Three Dog Night song from the 60's. I also happen to have a undergraduate degree in World History so I do not really consider myself ignorant. As far as that billboard is concerned, I think any religious billboard should be banned. That way nobody can throw their little tissy fits and it would be fair for all. That property owner had every right to disallow the placement of said billboards from his property. I hope others have the sense to do the same.

Religon also destroyed some of the best contributions to humanity.

The Religous Dark Ages were responsible for the destruction of the works of Archimedes, his works were scrapped off the books because they were "worthless sicence" and replaced with religous texts. so they could re-use the books. Check the wiki pages for Archimedes Palimpsest.

If religon did not overwrite his works, we would be Much Further in technology, medical, and engineering advances. We are still figuring out formulas that he wrote a thousand years ago.

Pitty Religon was more important!

Here we go again with the same ole "you're a bigot" "no, you're a bigot" argument found on this forum after EVERY article about religion, lack of religion, or scientific discovery. I love the comic relief I get reading all the insults bandied back and forth.

It all essentially boils down to opinion, and everyone has one. But has anyone stopped to ponder for themselves what would happen if THE OTHER SIDE happens to be right? That might be a good point of discussion, instead of all the tired arguments about "good without God" and "God is love."

How about a discussion of where our "morals" came from, anyway? It seems to me that we can't truly have "morals" or "goodness" without some mirror by which to compare ourselves and recognize our "immoralities" or "evilness". Where did that "mirror" originate?

I'm just askin. I don't claim to be a "christian" and don't believe that many people who claim to be one are true. But maybe a good discussion of the issues is better than the juvenile name calling.

Now, at the risk of getting flamed by the "good without god" people... how many atheist organizations have sent missionaries into Afghanistan, Pakistan, or any other Islamist nation, and risked death and dismemberment to preach your "no-God" existential gospel, like the terrible "God is love" people have? You think you have done something noble because you put up billboards in the USA, where you are protected by law? You think it is a statement to the moral superiority of the more restrained Muslims living here that recognize your right to do so? Now who lives in a fantasy world?

@ BigTex, why do the christians all over the world have to try to convert non-christians to their faith, even if someone is say Muslim, Hindu, whatever. I guess its ok for them, but for an Atheist to put out their feelings, you complain. You talk out of both sides of your mouth at the same time, you can't say, well its their first amendment right, but why are they trying to turn someone away from god?

God and Jesus were created to control people. Plain and simple. They are man made figments of wild imaginations back some 2000+ years ago. Why would your god, so perfect from the get go, create Satan? If you religious people want to claim a god created all this, who or what created your god who created all this?

I am an Atheist, after being involved in christian schools until grade 6. I bought into the lies, the bs, the stories that make no sense. Adam and Eve could not have populated this planet as the bible leads you to beLIEve. Why did your god create Adam from thin air, yet needed a "host" for jesus?

The people who need religion are people who can't think for themselves. They have to go to church every sunday, to only be browbeaten by someone pretending to be "holier than thou" all-the-while they probably do the same things as most of the "flock," that is drink, smoke and cuss. People of religion can't tolerate other religions. They have no tolerance for "difference." They want everyone out of their business, yet they want to control what everyone else does. The GOp have a candidate who, if wins, wants to run America with Judeo-Christian Sharia Law.

For those of you who beLIEve America was founded on christian laws and rules, prove it. I say America was NEVER a conservative nation. The founding fathers had bold ideas and visions to break away from the ruthless oppressive religious nature of England in the early to mid 1700's. The King wanted everyone to bow to the Church.

Conservative men do not have the testicular fortitude to set out and start a new nation in the face of danger. Conservative men only start wars, never finish them. Conservative men could not have started this nation. Our founding fathers knew better then to mix religion and politics.

I was a non-believer before coming to the USA. With an open mind and much of a hope, I joined a Christian church and became a Christian, since they told me if I accepted GOD, GOD is with me. Then I started serious study of the Holy Bible. However, the GOD described in the Bible was a merciless monster. He killed human beings indiscriminately, regardless if they were babies, women, or elderly. When I asked my fellow believers about that, they told me that GOD is not to be questioned. When I asked where GOD is, they said GOD is everywhere. When I asked how come I couldn't see GOD, they said GOD is invisible and has no shape. Then they told me Christ is the GOD and Christ is also the son of the GOD (which is the hardest to understand), Christ once let a dead man stand up and walk away, he also cured deaf people by saying one sentence, etc. etc. I watched a video created by Moody Bible Institute. It tries to use "scientific" method to prove GOD exists. I only found serious flaws in its reasoning. Until today, as a Christian, I still saw no evidence of GOD. Often times, I heard testimonies from various sources. Someone escaped a deadly tornado by praying to GOD. Someone's cancer got cured by praying to GOD (I didn't know if he used any therapy, though). Our president and political leaders often ask GOD to bless us Americans. Our money prints "IN GOD WE TRUST". I want to go to heaven when I die. I also want to stay safe when I live. I guess I'd better believe in GOD. In the mean time, I will work hard to earn my living, follow common sense to stay safe, help others if I can. Because I know, although GOD is with me, only I can make my life worthwhile.

A Veteran,

This is probably the funniest use of this strawman I've seen!

Sinister - Hitler, Stalin and Mao Tse Tung were athiests. Not professed, but they didn't believe in God.

So, if they didn't profess it, how do you know? Oh yes, pulled it out of your ...hat. This is the same hubris as those Christians that KNOW what God is thinking! Lets look at this statement shall we?

Here is a GREAT site concerning Hitler's Christian belief:

http://nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

You also want to lump a dictator/tyrant and make the cause atheism. Well Joesph Koney is a self proclaimed Christian. Pope Innocent III was a massive tryant during his tenure as Pope. Bill Gothard is another example of a child abusing tyrant. So I'm afraid your example/argument as no merit.

Most of them will pleading for God's mercy before they pass away.

Bet that would make you smile, too.

Good for those who blocked the billboard! How insulting to the Jewish community to have that placed in their neighborhood. It is a slap in their face, one they shouldn't take.

Atheists have the right to be atheists, but not the right to insult others who don't have their beliefs.

+1 for both #1 and #1.1, good points. I don't feel either side is wrong for wanting to further their point of view. There is strength in numbers and the only way to gain numbers is to activly recruit/organize like minded people. Then the biggest group wins.

stonedog (#1.18): Yes... and vice versa.

Al718 (#1.12): I was with you up until you made the "religion is stupid" statement. In order to really make your point you should have left that out, because it contradicted what you WERE saying.

My point is this: We all may KNOW that someone believes differently but none of us UNDERSTAND it, regardless of who believes what. There doesn't need to be any senseless arguing. Why all of the bashing on both sides? We should be able to just respect each other and leave it be. Our own personal beliefs should be sufficient, why be concerned with convincing everyone else?

420 Frees the Mind

@ BigTex, why do the christians all over the world have to try to convert non-christians to their faith, even if someone is say Muslim, Hindu, whatever. I guess its ok for them, but for an Atheist to put out their feelings, you complain. You talk out of both sides of your mouth at the same time, you can't say, well its their first amendment right, but why are they trying to turn someone away from god?

I can't speak for Christians all over the world.

...for an Atheist to put out their feelings, uou complain...
I did not complain.

It's my belief and my opinion. I am not trying to push anything on you. Perhaps you should read it again, it's short and to the point and still just my opinion.

In reply to atheists not being charitable: I have given to animal charities most of my life and I don't know any of them that are religious. I guess believers assume a lot about non-believers; And everybody knows that saying.

Canowhoopass Your post is by far the most accurate on this subject. Atheists do have a God, and that is money, greed, power to control people through govt.

Not sure what the purpose of this is, but if these people think they are going to change a true believers mind, they will be disappointed.

NO DIFFERENCE in the following:

1) a sign promoting a religion and asking you to come to church/temple/mosque/whatever

2) a sign like the one athiests are putting up.

Telling, too, that the Islamic society near a sign location has less problem with the sign than the Hasidic community near one. Who's a bigot now? Before jumping down my throat about it, I fully realize that if you put a sign like this in Afghanistan, the morons there would probably kill innocent people over it.

MAYBE your tolerance has more to do with you than your religion (or lack thereof). And maybe that's why I see everything on this thread from intolerant Christian posts, to tolerant athiest posts and visa versa.

@ 420 Frees the Mind

Prove it?

1891 – The U.S. Supreme Court restates that America is a “Christian Nation.”

“Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian … this is a religious people. This is historically true. From the discovery of this continent to the present hour, there is a single voice making this affirmation … we find everywhere a clear definition of the same truth … this is a Christian nation.” (Church of the Holy Trinity vs. United States, 143 US 457, 36 L ed 226, Justice Brewer)

I can offer you dozens more, from Columbus to present day.

Shuklack

The funny thing is, people don't seem to realize the billboard isn't even directed at religious people - it's directed at "closet" atheists who are too afraid to come out in a heavily religious community. It's a message of solidarity.

The sad part is you actually believe that

Wow, that ruling from 1891 must be totally relevant today...NOT

The US is not a Christian nation. It is a nation that allows Christians to practice their faith. But I know radical people just won't accept that. So the only way to emphasize that point is with new laws. Thank the founding fathers for realizing that part of the law was the ability to change them, or there'd be plantations to this day.

Why is it we judge something because of the extremists? I have my beliefs and believe and try to practice humbleness and humility and try to respect everyone and everything. Why can we just not get along and stay out of another person's life? Why must we try to conform the world? We need to learn acceptance or society will be in ruin.

Sinister - Hitler, Stalin and Mao Tse Tung were athiests. Not professed, but they didn't believe in God.

Honestly, I get sick of this. HITLER was NOT an atheist. He was raised Catholic, and in many speeches, he continued to profess his Catholicism. Not only that, he was never excommunicated, or in fact never even censured by the Vatican. One of his many, twisted justifications for his hatred of Jews was their alleged complicity in the execution of Jesus Christ, and denial of his status as the Messiah and son of God. He never strayed far from the central belief that Jews were exploiters and oppressors, and saw himself as Christlike in acting against the Jewish people.

If that weren't enough, the NSDAP (Nazi) Party had Christianity written into its platform. There is even credible evidence that Nazi fugitives received support from elements within the Catholic Church to escape Germany after the fall of Berlin, even with Hitler dead. Early in the Nazi era, many Catholic leaders criticized Nazism, but around 1933, that turned to praise, since the Nazis were against many of the same things as the Church. It was not unusual for the local Catholic clergy to identify Jewish families for arrest.

All told, WWII accounted for some 50Million dead. A majority of that number were directly attributable to Nazi Germany's actions and Hitler. Clearly, that stunning number of dead are not due to an atheist, but a Catholic in good standing, who perverted Christianity for his own ends.

For all those you believe you cannot have hope without faith:

Definition of hope:

Noun - A feeling of expecation and desire for a certain thing to happen

Verb - A desire for something to happen

Synonyms- expectaion, expectancy, expect, trust, promise, anticipate

So, a person can have hope without faith. I am a person of faith (not saying which faith because it's no ones business but my own). But even if I wasn't, there is always hope.

It makes me laugh how posts get collapsed for no other reason than difference of opinions... Nothing 'logical' about this kind of behavior, just an inane urge wanting to be right.

Funny how when Christian leaders wage war (i.e. crusades) - it's religion destroying mankind.

When it's Atheist dictators that wage war (Stalin, Mao) - it's megolomanics killing for greed/power.

As if that isn't really the underlying reason for every war, religous or otherwise.

Here's the thing, I fully believe that atheists can be as good as any other person on earth, some may even be better. I also believe that most people are more good than bad regardless of their personal beliefs.

I do believe in God and the reasons I believe in God have very little to do with any magical book or wise old preist telling me so. I believe in god for very personal reasons, because of my experiences, because somehow, I KNOW that God is. It's hard to explain really. If you haven't had that kind of religious experience, there is no way to explain it so that you would understand. I know that there is a God, I don't just believe it.

Now that is far different from religion, I don't know which religion is right. I suspect that none of them are and all of them are at the same time. I was raised in a Catholic family with strong cultural ties to that religion and so when I choose to participate in a religous activity/ritual, I choose Catholic. I like the holidays, the celebrations, the ritual, sacraments etc. It's nice to have those rites of passage to mark my son's coming of age. That's the purpose of "religion", to provide the community and culture that have been a part of humanity since the first ape went bald.

God exists despite religion, not because of religion. Albert Einstein, Max Plank, Charles Darwin, Thomas Jefferson, and Antony Flew are all considered to be theists. You can believe in God and not believe in Religion. You can be a theist and still understand that religous allegory and myth are not necessarily literal truth.

So many atheists are so self congratulatory that their superior intellect has afforded them the ability to see how absurd the idea of God is that it is really a turn off. This campaign and the one at Christmas a while back are offensive to me. Not because I find it threatening to my own believes or religious persuasion. I find it offensive that anyone would launch an attack on another groups culture for no other reason than to make themselves feel superior. That's what is at the heart of this campaign. Hasidism by definition is a believe in the divine presence in everything. Every aspect of their life is devoted to their religion. A Hasidic Atheist is a contradiction in terms. If there is a closeted atheist in the community, which would be very rare IMO> it's not like they don't have access to meet other atheists in NYC. To "come out" means to leave their community. If they are just going through the motions because they like their community and their culture, then leave them alone. Why call them out on it? Seems wrong to me. This is a community that chooses the cloth it's clothing is made from, the food they eat, the language they speak, based on religious tenets. What do they expect these closeted atheists to do? It's not like they can suddenly eat ham sandwiches while wearing a polyester blend bikini while driving past the synagogue on a Saturday announcing through a bull horn that the "God of Abraham is a SHAM!" and expect to continue to be accepted by the community. They already know they have a choice. Their choice is to remain closeted or to leave the community. They've made it, now leave them alone.

See! Atheist can be Hippocrates too, believe as I do or you will not be accepted. how do you believe in not believing. who are these people with a no message message? what do the atheist hope to gain by preaching not to preach and what business is it of theirs what someone else believes, faith is translated as hope why cant they let people have hope! the atheist are no different than any religion now they are organizing to push their beliefs, next will be persecution. religion is not the problem people are. I don't care what you believe in at some point you will become a hypocrite. I cant see air so it does not exist. atheist are way to smart for me, everyone knows it was beer that caused the creation of civilization. if it wasnt for beer you never would have climbed out of your tree. or did you fall out.

First of all, for those of you who keep touting the "speration of church and state". If you have read the constitution, you would know that it means that government is not allowed to make laws regarding religion and that no religion is allowed to have power over the government. (Including the Catholic church) It does not, however, say that every goverment establishment must be religion free. We are all free to believe as we wish without ridicule. That means that as much as atheists have the freedom not to believe, they also do not have the right to make sure that I cannot believe as I choose. I am a believer in God. If some people feel hope and faith and comfort believing in a supreme being, why is that so offensive to non-believers? I can respect your right not to believe without ridicule. My 16 year old son is an athiest and I can respect his right to believe whatever he chooses. I can't say that I'm not a little disappointed, but I respect his choice. If I choose to pray in his company, he is respectful enough of me not to say anything offensive about my beliefs and I am respectful enough of him not to ask him to join me. Why is this such a difficult concept for the rest of the country? America is built on the concept of freedom. People are supposed to have the freedom to believe as they choose without ridicule from an opposing opinion. Can we please just live and let live??

Tell ya DB, Christians have perfected the "persecution complex" to an art. Lets see, they are the majority in the US, plaster billboards all over the countryside, knock on our doors unwanted, send us mail begging for money, send out their annoying message over tv and airwave and get undeserved tax breaks. BUT WAIT, when they are called out for breaking the law (such as violating the Establishment Clause or fraudulently taking untaxed money)...OH MY GOD WE ARE BEING PERSECUTED!!!! OH MY GOD THERE IS A WAR ON RELIGION (My religion, we don't care about yours)!!! Please.

As an atheist, I would like to say that the comment made in the article by the "atheist" who said that it's ironic that the Jewish community, which was and is the victim of religious intolerance, is now practicing it by working to get the billboard refused. That's an entirely bullsh!t statement. Atheism is not a religion. Atheism is the LACK of religion. Trying to promote atheism as a "religion" and atheists as the "victims of religions bigotry and intolerance" is so ludicrous that it completely undermines the very presumption that atheists are rational and intelligent.

Even Darwin believed in God...

I have to wonder why the billboards are necessary though. One doesn't "convert" to atheism. One either believes or one doesn't. It's not even really a choice. Why would you need to advertise?

-------------------------------------

Au contraire: Any "unchurched" person could say that they don't follow a religion...it doesn't say anything at all about their actual beliefs. And any agnostic could rightly say that they do not believe in God. Of
course, a true agnostic would quickly add that they also don't disbelieve in God.

An atheist, on the other hand, makes an affirmative statement that there is no God or other supernatural entity controlling the universe. As such, they are making a statement of faith quite as much as the most religious because neither can know the truth of their assertion.

Pascal's wager applies here: if one must believe something and cannot live with the unknown, the only intelligent choice is to believe in God. But i guess atheists could rally and meet just as the various God worshippers do. It just wouldn't be a worship service. Maybe they could all join hands and whistle past the graveyard together. Seriously pathetic!

I find it ironic that religious people claim that being a "good person" or "having morals" comes from religion... considering that the ONLY reason religious people are "good" or display "morals" stems from their own fear and selfish desire to save their soul from eternal damnation.

Can it really be considered "good" or "moral" when you are only doing it to save yourself?

The definition of faith, according to the dictionary, is believing in something without proof. So yes, I do lack faith because I have the type of brain that won't allow to believe in something without sigificant proof. Just believing in something for the hope that it's real scares the crap out of me. Just because I wish something was true or real doesn't mean it is. I wish all humanity could live in peace, that doesn't mean they ever will. So yes, I don't have faith. If you feel that makes me a bad person, fine, you believe what you need to believe.

As for charities, I"m sure you've heard of the Bill Gates foundation. Bill Gates an an atheist and that foundation donates millions of dollars a year for that charity. The Salvation Army discriminates against homosexuals, the Bill Gates foundation helps EVERYONE. The Christian charity would let homosexuals starve and die, but the atheist doesn't care what a consenting adult does in the privacy of their home, if they need help they get help. Which charity sounds more charitable?

Say what you need to say and believe what you need to believe to make yourself feel better, but use facts, not opinion. Otherwise it's hard to take you seriously.

Xena,

Christian warlords did NOT kill for greed and power? Have you ever been to some catholic churches in Europe? Where do you think all that gold and money came from to build those pompous structures?

The Christian charity would let homosexuals starve and die, but the atheist doesn't care what a consenting adult does in the privacy of their home, if they need help they get help. Which charity sounds more charitable?

This is the EXACT reason I DO NOT donate to any religious charity. I do not want my money going to a hate-campaign that spreads an angry, rage-filled message against other people. I want my money to actually help people or animals.

I have "faith" that non-religious people will do the right thing... whereas I DO NOT have "faith" that religious people can see beyond their blinding hatred.

I disagree with many people here as many Atheists do have beliefs that are spiritual. Many Buddhists are Atheist by definition as they do not believe in a supreme being. That does not mean they believe in nothing.

That being said, I do not agree with anyone calling anyone's religious belifs a myth. Do I believe that Joseph Smith found golden plates and spoke to God? No. Do I feel the need to put up a billboard in Salt Lake City mocking those who do? No.

It is wrong when militant Christian groups do it. It is wrong with Muslim groups do it. It is wrong when Atheists groups do it.

However, like all of the above-the feelings expressed by a few bad apples do not reflect the beliefs of the groups as a whole. I have friends who are Atheists who roll their eyes at this the same way I do when "Christian" groups do the same thing.

However, they have the legal right to put up the billboard, and those offended have the legal right to protest and boycott the billboard company to take it down. Free speech works both ways.

D Buck

Only Hippocrates can be Hippocrates. We may recite his oath, but we can't "be" him.

@WMG-21

Have you ever read Karl Marx's "Manifesto of the Communist Party"? It has nothing to do with religion or atheism at all. Communism, in Marx's view, is the community in whole working together for the common good of the community. It was Hitler who tarneshed the name of communism with religion.

The ignorance on here is rather shocking. Maybe it shouldnt be - but it is.

The Hassidic community is not in an uproar becuse there are atheists. It's just that their message should not be placed right in front of them..it is, to them, an AFfront. The atheists have the rest of the country in which to post - it does not have to be right in the community's face.

Way back when, the Nazis wanted to march in Skokie, Illinois, (a large Jewish community) on the Sabbath. They claimed a right of free speech...and most of you would agree; however, those who really KNOW the Constitution know that there can be a TPM (time place manner) restriction when such speech's context is an affront. Thus, Illinois allowed the march, but in Marquet Park, 15 minutes away.

Other instances where the distinct community values are taken into consideration is the pornography standards, which change from community to community.

Remember also that it's not just the message to which the community took offense. They spelled out, in Hebrew, the Tetragramaton; this, in the community, is the holiest of holy names - that even the religious may not write or speak. To have the name then used in the manner it was, was unnecessarily insulting.

Yes, the Atheists have the right to post whatever they want, but, the Hassidic community also has rights.

There are far more respectful ways to let people who do not believe that they "are not alone." You do not need to use words such as, "myth" to do so.

Ok, Derek. More recently...

May 3, 1990 – President George Bush proclaims National Day of Prayer.

“The great faith that led our Nation’s Founding Fathers to pursue this bold experience in self-government has sustained us in uncertain and perilous times; it has given us strength to this very day. Like them, we do very well to recall our ‘firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence,’ to give thanks for the freedom and prosperity this nation enjoys, and to pray for continued help and guidance from our wise and loving Creator.”

I imagine you'll discount it because it's Bush, but he isn't the subject...it's a President of the United States acknowledging it.

hungrymongoose

How can people really believe that? How can you believe that when you die, your soul doesn't continue on forever?

If religion is false, how come throughout the history of the world there have been reports of people seeing, and even talking to, ghosts and spirits? There are many people walking the earth right now today who have seen them. Why is it, that if you were to put all of these people on a lie detector test, while recounting their stories, you would get a 100% of them telling the truth?

I am not religious at all - yet I still KNOW that ghosts and "spirits" are real. "Religion" is not at all needed for anyone to believe in Faeries and Hobgoblins. As for the lie-detector thing, I seriously doubt anyone would get a 100% "positive" result.

Yo, BigTex, how about you prove that "Divine Providence" means ONLY the Christian "God"?

“The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion”.....The Treaty of Tripoli (treaty between the U.S.A. and Tripoli, signed at Tripoli November 4, 1796 and at Algiers January 3, 1797)

Two items; 1. Bigot - "a person who obstinately holds to an opinion that you oppose." Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary.

2. Either atheists are right, that there is nothing after death, that it is just the end, or others, such as I, are, that there is an afterlife in which the results of our lives in this world are repaid/rewarded.

If atheists are right, we'll never know. If, however, those such I are right, some of us could be in for an awfully unpleasant surprise.

So ifyou have no faith then no hope. I don't have faith in god, but I have alot of hope that I can make for a better tomorrow.

Actually, Athiests do have faith, and hope. They have faith in themselves, rather than leaning on a God for support. They have hope in the human condition that they can stop being afraid and hateful towards one another because an invisible bestest best friend says so. As for charities, how many charities do you know of that don't either ship all the food and money to another country, or use said food and money to throw themselves lavish charity parties with the finest entertainment and food to advertise their charity? Do you really think all your charity money gets to those you're trying to help? No, it doesn't. It goes into some soothsayer's pocket book.

I myself sit at the crossroads of Agnostic, because I really don't give a damn about the fight between if there's a God or not. Frankly, I'd love for an all loving, forgiving, compassionate, kind God that rewards those that are good people. Unfortunately, the normal interpretation of God is that He's going to set the entire world world on fire because two men fell in love, or because someone touched themselves. God has become a cruel, almost evil figure, a bigot, a sexist, a leader of hatred. I don't want to believe that our Creator could be so vicious towards those He's created.

Yet here I am, watching the fear mongering shepherd sheep around like it were the dark ages, with messages of eternal burning and damnation. All because I might choose to have a boyfriend, or might not give to their charity, which they'll actually use to build onto their church and increase their own wealth, and message of hatred. I know, I know, there are several interpretations of God, but frankly, I prefer to stand out of the fire fight over who's message is real, because that's when the worst fights tend to happen.

Honestly, I only take up "the cause against" when God is used to hurt, demean, or even oust someone from a community. It's the exact same thing I see Mormons, Scientologists, etc demonized for, yet somehow it's ok for Christians, Jews, etc to do it and call everyone else on it. Otherwise, I have no problem with God being worshipped, or people having faith. Just don't try to save me, convert me, or burn me for being a heretic.

That said, I also believe in doing to others and you would have done unto you. I try to be a nice, decent, good person, and only disrespect when others disrespect me, or those I care about. There ARE some very good rules in those Holy Books, and I don't mind borrowing from them if it means at the end of the day, I'm happy with myself as a person. Yet I do find men attractive, I've courted Mrs. Hand a few times, and I'd rather not sit here thinking that I'm going to burn forever in eternity just because of a few normal, natural things I do that have yet to hurt anyone.

As for the billboard? He sold the space, now he's making a huge stink about it. If he actually cared about the message, he'd have never sold the ad-space. He's just trying to get the community back behind him and "save his good name". He is lawfully inclined to give them the ad-space, and now he's refusing them, thinking religion can save him from contractual obligation, and save him from being turned on by the community, because he's "being a good Jew". If I'm somehow wrong and a contract hasn't been signed, and no money exchanged, then no, the athiests have no rights in this case. It's just common sense.

I have my faith and it may or may not be right or wrong but I do feel that people who don't have just as much right to exist as I do and if they are feeling left out I completely understand why they would seek others like themselves for security and validation. Christianity if it is followed genuinely is tolerant of all faiths and beliefs. God is a big fan of free will so when you deny those who don't believe as you do their free will than you deny your own God and should be more concerned with that than what someone else feels. 7 Billion people cannot all be right all of the time so why do you think you are.

@willowbrook couldnt that be said for christians as well. Jehovah's witnesses, and Mormons. Its like a slap in the face of all atheists everywhere to have people preaching to them about how their soul will be eternally damned and how they should repent and turn to god. Wouldn't that be considered a slap to the face of atheists to be lumped together with most. Its a double edged sword, lady. Christians, atheists, mormons, and witnesses are mostly on one extreme side of the spectrum or the other. Any religon for that matter. I will never knock another persons faith, seeing as I have it as well, but I will knock a religion that professes to be good and kind when all it does it tear someone down because of the fact that they do not believe in what you and others believe. Keep in mind since the dawn of time people have always had different points of views, people fear which they think and know in their head is different. Someone is always trying to convert someone.

Before you say anything about me saying everyone keep in mind I said SOMEONE.

Bill Gates is an atheist who has given billions to charity, so shut the hell up.

Fred

Either atheists are right, that there is nothing after death, that it is just the end, or others, such as I, are, that there is an afterlife in which the results of our lives in this world are repaid/rewarded.

If atheists are right, we'll never know. If, however, those such I are right, some of us could be in for an awfully unpleasant surprise.

That "unpleasant surprise" is based on the assumption that YOUR religion is right, and everyone else is wrong. Of course, every single religious person believes this, so we have a giant mixing bowl full of narcissistic "believers" who all claim to be correct.

Add to that the fact that many religions use fear-tactics to gain support... if you do not believe in their religion, you will receive an "unpleasant surprise." It's the simple belief that only those of YOUR religion are saved, while everyone else is damned. This basic belief, however, defies the very constructs of their own religion. If your deity is good and all-knowing, then your deity knowingly placed some humans on this planet knowing they would never hear of your religion, and are thus doomed from the start. Like the native Americans placed here, by your god, before Christianity crossed the ocean. By your own belief, god placed these people here knowing that Christianity would not spread to their ears during their lifetime, and thus they were doomed from the start. This defies the notion of a "good God", and places the entire premise of religion in question.

So are atheists the ones who are in for an "unpleasant surprise"? Or is your religion incorrect, and you are the one in for an "unpleasant surprise"? Who is to know for certain? It's entirely possible that, upon death, we learn that nobody got it right... and all this fighting was simply a waste. Of course, we are far to narcissistic to even consider the possibility that we may be wrong.

Galileo was found "vehemently suspect of heresy", namely of having held the opinions that the Sun lies motionless at the centre of the universe, that the Earth is not at its centre and moves, and that one may hold and defend an opinion as probable after it has been declared contrary to Holy Scripture. He was required to "abjure, curse and detest" those opinions.

He was sentenced to formal imprisonment at the pleasure of the Inquisition. On the following day this was commuted to house arrest, which he remained under for the rest of his life.

His offending Dialogue was banned; and in an action not announced at the trial, publication of any of his works was forbidden, including any he might write in the future.

This was a man of faith, a catholic... and for his brilliance he was put on trial and arrested all because he went against what man wrote in a book...myself as an atheist does believe the bible has stories we can all learn from..my faith is in humanity, i help people when i can and i donate and give to those who need.. one of the few that take time to listen to the witnesses that come to the door because they are only doing what their faith asks of them and see no harm in taking a few minutes of my time to be polite before saying im not interested..i hope everyone someday will be tolerant of others belief or dis belief....

Why did your god create Adam from thin air, yet needed a "host" for jesus?

Because Jesus needed to be God in the flesh. If you read the bible/asked a preist then you would know that.

here are some links that show how god can sceintificaly exist:

htt p:/ /www. everystudent. com/features/isthere .html

http : // www. proofthatgodexists .org/

htt p:// www . doesgodexist .org/

Now show me how god doesn't existould have put a peter ruckmen debate, but I cant find the right one)

The Quacked One

I cannot prove anything to you, wouldn't even try.
Btw, I also never said it was only the Christian God. He comes to different people in different ways.

It's interesting that they employ recruiting methods similar to the ones once used by various religions to recruit people, and further proof that atheism is just another religion. They even had a rally recently complete with large tents remarkably similar to those evangelical bible meetings.

BTW, they usual employ in a mocking manner about people believing there is some magic guy in the sky. There is indeed a magic guy in the sky. I would refer people to Clarks 3rd.

bigtex...a witness told me that once, very deep conversation but might i add that some believe in spirits of air and land or sky?? multiple gods, others a single god??? it is true that the common ground is believing in higher powers or power, a earth quake a thousand years ago would be considered the gods or god was angry and punishing the people now its science that proves what the actual cause is..many unexplained things happened then that are explained now through science so not believing in god or even questioning god has been on the rise for a very long time..alot of believers fear non believers because they poison childrens mind with their dis belief in god..while in fact many atheists come from very religious families...

For the people talking about why Christians don't know anything about morals, here's the thing. We believe that our morals come from a higher and perfect power. Those that claim to be Christian can be put to the test by seeing if they use these morals. Also, our morals don't change with the culture. What was wrong 50 years ago is still wrong today, but we might see it in different ways.

AG99 - I have to wonder why the billboards are necessary though. One doesn't "convert" to atheism. One either believes or one doesn't. It's not even really a choice. Why would you need to advertise?

Because atheists don't build massive meeting houses, or have any organized rituals with regular times of attendance.

Putting up a message addressing the few atheists living in the oppressive Hasidic community, and listing a website for contact info, seems a rather minor thing.

No surprise though that the Taliban of Judaism don't like it, or that Christian extremists are similarly upset. Neither have ever been able to accept that people exist who don't share their bizarre cult's views.

my2cents70...

I have no problem with what you're saying and I certainly appreciate the sciences...one of my better subjects in school and still today, but just because we can figure out how something happens doesn't mean that God didn't do it. And no, I don't necessarily believe that He punishes us with earthquakes. I don't believe that He micro-manages us.

Thomas Jefferson

[1743-1826] 3rd American president, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat. Deist, avid separationist.

"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." 1787 letter to his nephew

"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature." Unknown

"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." Unknown

"To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, God, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no God, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise: but I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart. At what age of the Christian church this heresy of immaterialism, this masked atheism, crept in, I do not know. But a heresy it certainly is. Jesus told us indeed that 'God is a spirit,' but he has not defined what a spirit is, nor said that it is not matter. And the ancient fathers generally, if not universally, held it to be matter: light and thin indeed, an etherial gas; but still matter." letter to John Adams, August 15, 1820

"Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites." Notes on Virginia

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes" Letter to von Humboldt, 1813

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own" Letter to H. Spafford, 1814

"But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and State." in a letter to S. Kercheval, 1810

"...an amendment was proposed by inserting the words, 'Jesus Christ...the holy author of our religion,' which was rejected 'By a great majority in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammedan, the Hindoo and the Infidel of every denomination.'" From Jefferson's biography

"I never told my religion, nor scrutinized that of another. I never attempted to make a convert, nor wished to change another's creed. I have judged others' religions by their lives, for it is from our lives and not our words that our religions must be read."

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."

"The authors of the gospels were unlettered and ignorant men and the teachings of Jesus have come to us mutilated, misstated and unintelligible."

�The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God.�

�It is not to be understood that I am with him [Jesus] in all his doctrines. I am a Materialist.�

BigTex, I actually don't discount it because it was Bush, but I am simply saying the modern US should not be a nation of religious government.

Simply put, a nation of one religion will be weaker than a nation of many. If you don't believe that, take a look at Iran....

bigtex..i agree with your sense of thinking also, anyone who wants to believe in god or gods has the right to..

kinda funny though,a sign from the non prophet..lol...atheist humor...

my2cents...

John Adams
2nd U.S. President and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be."
_{--Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9.}

George Washington
1st U.S. President

"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."
_{--The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.}

Thomas Jefferson
3rd U.S. President, Drafter and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."
_{--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.}

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
_{--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.}

Benjamin Franklin
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Unites States Constitution

"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.

That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see;

But I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and more observed; especially as I do not perceive, that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any peculiar marks of his displeasure."

my2cents...
We could do this all day. I respect you and your opinions and whatever your truth is.

Derek...
I don't think we're too far off. Peace.

bigtex..right for every pro god statement theres a anti god statement, and politician compared to priest, reverend and rabbi might not be the greatest examples..its more like an X files comparison"the truth is out there"..

peace is close, i believe that also...

oh, and faith in ones self is taught to everyone religious or not...atheists can have faith and hope, you dont need a god for that...

@ ariana - My post had to do with placing an anti Jewish billboard in the middle of a very conservative Jewish community. It would be no different than placing one dissing Christianity adjacent to the Campus of a Christian University. I'm not saying these folks can't post the billboard, post it someplace appropriate, not a place purposely intended to insult the faithful.

How many pro-Jewish billboards have you seen? Let alone Christian ones? Me? none for the Jews and for Christian ones, putting them up on their property, that is their business. They're not working to place their message out there to purposely insult others.

For those of us who believe, it is a hard concept to understand a life without God. To take away the positives a faith-filled life gives us would be cruel. It is cruel to try to undermine the rich culture of the Hasidic community, to supposedly, bring atheists out of the closet.

Truth be told, I don't think there are the numbers out there these folks are hoping to find. And finding them will not make their cause any stronger.

P.S. The amount of ignorance I've read from atheists on these threads in overwhelming. Most Atheists have no concept what true religion is. That is so sad. Yet we have to read their contempt they have that is based on the errant knowledge.

willowbrook - How many pro-Jewish billboards have you seen? Let alone Christian ones? Me? none for the Jews and for Christian ones, putting them up on their property, that is their business.

You must be blind.

The thing about Hitler, he was a politician. He said lots of things to lots of people to get everyone to like him. He spoke of Christianity in his public speeches but privately declared it was a fairy story created by the Jews. The thing I find most interesting about Hitler is that neither Christians NOR Atheists want to claim that Hitler shared their beliefs.

I have to wonder why the billboards are necessary though. One doesn't "convert" to atheism. One either believes or one doesn't. It's not even really a choice. Why would you need to advertise?

Actually, most Atheists were once "believers", being taught as children the faith of their parents. But after consideration and careful study reveals no god, they "convert" themselves to Atheism, spontaneously, usually without any persuasion from others. That's a major difference from other religious conversions, which requires evangelizing by other Believers, and is not spontaneous - except when forming yet another new religion. If there were just one god, there would be just one religion - instead there are thousands.

Yeah, except atheism was responsible for 70,000,000+ deaths during the last century.

Not atheism, it was politics.

Hitler, Stalin and Mao Tse Tung were athiests. Not professed, but they didn't believe in God.

Hitler was a devout Catholic that insisted that the schools taught religion, claimed he was doing Christ's work in eliminating the Jews, and had the words "Gott Mit Uns" (God with us) stamped on the belt buckles of their uniforms. No atheist, Hitler claimed to be a Christian. As for Stalin and Mao, they attacked anyone who they suspected might be a threat to their political power.

Atheists make up 12% of the population, that means over 840 million Atheists. Tell you what, I'll admit that Hitler and Torquemada were not typical Christians and do not represent all of Christianity, if you'll admit that Stalin and Mao were not typical Atheists and do not represent all of Atheism.

Why did your god create Adam from thin air, yet needed a "host" for jesus?

Because Jesus needed to be God in the flesh.
If you read the bible/asked a preist then you would know that.

I think you've missed the point. Why did God need to impregnate Mary, risking charges of rape, incest (God the Father), and adultery (Mary was betrothed and not married), when omnipotent God could have simply zapped himself into incarnate existence instead? That sudden appearance in human form would have been far more impressive to onlookers than any "virgin birth" - which wasn't confirmed and could have been the result of artificial insemination.

@ ariana - My post had to do with placing an anti Jewish billboard in the middle of a very conservative Jewish community.

That's really the reason the billboard and others like them are needed....the pervasive thinking that just because the majority of people in a neighborhood (or city or country) subscribe to a particular religion, then that becomes the only acceptable belief to espouse. All others are silenced because it's impossible for the majority to even consider the possibility that it really isn't all about them. They think any other belief is only designed to insult them...not because other thinking, rational people have simply reached different conclusions and have as much right to express their beliefs as anyone else.

It would be no different than placing one dissing Christianity adjacent to the Campus of a Christian University. I'm not saying these folks can't post the billboard, post it someplace appropriate, not a place purposely intended to insult the faithful.

There it is. Silence those who aren't sharing majority beliefs...by geography in this instance, but the intent and result is the same. Why do the beliefs of the majority need to be "protected" from differing beliefs? And why do the majority think they deserve or have a right to have their beliefs protected? I am confronted with billboards and bumper stickers and radio stations, tv stations, flyers in my mailbox, even people at my door. I don't need protection from beliefs I find ludicrous and annoying. Why should you?

How many pro-Jewish billboards have you seen? Let alone Christian ones? Me? none for the Jews and for Christian ones, putting them up on their property, that is their business. They're not working to place their message out there to purposely insult others.

Neither are atheists. I see xian billboards every single day...on the public highways...anywhere there are billboards, there are xian ones. There is a 40 foot cross on public land, on a hill just across from my home. They light that ridiculous thing up at night. I don't have the kind of ego it would take to assume that all of that was done to insult me...or anyone else who doesn't share their beliefs. They are doing it to advertise their McReligion business. Nothing more. It's no more offensive than the billboards for fast food, cell phones or any other corporate interest.

Atheists have a slightly different situation. We are in a minority...but we aren't a small minority. There are more atheists/agnostics/secular/non-religious people in this country than jews, or blacks or gays or Latinos or any other minority. Despite our significant numbers, we are not organized or cohesive, and because of that we don't have any targeted representation. Because so many theists lately tend to vote for leaders based on their religious beliefs, as a result of that...we have no leadership that represents us. So we need to speak up, and let our leadership know that we aren't going to vote for theists who disparage, condemn and marginalize us. Have your religion if you want, more power to you...but make it part of your public policy and you've crossed the line.

For those of us who believe, it is a hard concept to understand a life without God. To take away the positives a faith-filled life gives us would be cruel. It is cruel to try to undermine the rich culture of the Hasidic community, to supposedly, bring atheists out of the closet.

How does putting up a billboard take anything away from anyone? Is faith that fragile that it can't even be confronted with a different belief without collapsing? That's ridiculous. Unlike theists, atheists don't have a mandate to convert others. What they do have, is every right to express their own views and beliefs in every venue that theists do.

Truth be told, I don't think there are the numbers out there these folks are hoping to find. And finding them will not make their cause any stronger.

It's not a cause. It's about the kind of discrimination that you display here. That atheists can't really be understood...there must be something wrong with them to not love god, they only want to insult theists, they have no right to express their views around anyone who disagrees with them and there aren't that many of them anyway, so why should we have to bother with them? All subtle but effective ways of marginalizing non-theists. The problem (for you) is that atheism has tripled in this country in recent years and continues to grow at an unprecedented rate. Studies show that nearly 20% of the population now says that religion has little or no influence in their life. Not all are atheists, but they aren't theists either.

The fact that it's not black and white...either god or no god...there are a great many people who might believe in a higher power, but not a god...makes it hard for there to be an accurate count...take Israel as an example:

"The only nation of secular significance in the Middle East is Israel; 37 percent of Israelis are atheist or agnostic (Kedem 1995) and 75 percent of Israelis define themselves as ‘‘not religious’’ or having a ‘‘non-religious orientation’’ (Dashefsky et al. 2003)."

That's an impressive number...75% say they are not religious, although only 37% claim to be atheist.

In this country, "a 2008 Harris Poll (Harris Poll 2008) found that 19 percent of Americans are atheist or agnostic – the highest level of non-belief ever reported in a national survey of Americans."

Of course...that was over three years ago and atheism is growing fast...so it's reasonable to think that number would be higher now....and that doesn't include the "non-religious" theists.

P.S. The amount of ignorance I've read from atheists on these threads in overwhelming. Most Atheists have no concept what true religion is. That is so sad. Yet we have to read their contempt they have that is based on the errant knowledge.

Studies have also shown that atheists score better on tests of religious knowledge than theists do. And I can assure you that being religious hasn't made anyone kinder or more intelligent or less likely to be contemptuous of others. Your last paragraph is a fine example of how your religious beliefs didn't stop you from lumping everyone together and then showing your contempt and claiming they were ignorant and errant...just because you have different beliefs.

Quoted passages from this site:

http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/faculty/zuckerman/Zuckerman_on_Atheism.pdf

@Cheebz

Have you ever read Karl Marx's "Manifesto of the Communist Party"? It has nothing to do with religion or atheism at all. Communism, in Marx's view, is the community in whole working together for the common good of the community. It was Hitler who tarneshed the name of communism with religion.

It's really irrelevant who "tarnished" communism or not-- the fact of the matter is that communist governments enforced atheistic world views and punished or silenced religious dissenters, resulting in the deaths of millions. I understand the concept of communism-- you're talking to someone who graduated from university with distinguished honors. I've read all manner of material related to communism-- the ideal of communism (which has never, and frankly, will never exist) is all well and good-- but you throw in the human element and it all falls apart. In the historical case, the result was the slaughter of millions, many of them because of their religious convictions.

The stars created the world ♥♥♥

On Wednesday, American Atheists were slated to post another billboard to near the Islamic center of the heavily Muslim community in Paterson, N.J. — identical except written in Arabic and English. They have not received any blowback in that community, Silverman said.

"We’re not particularly disturbed about it,” said Ibrahim Hooper, spokesman for the Council on American Islamic Relations. "We believe it’s their First Amendment right to put them up. … Obviously they placed them to be provocative, but that’s also their right."

Interesting that the muslims were more tolerant than the jews....

My thought exactly.

The Hebrew name of god was misspelled, that was all they were offended about.

A person of any faith is much safer in Israel than in one of the radical Islamic countries. Given the choice, I would take Israel; the only danger then is from cafe bombings and the like by some Muslim maniac.

What the whole episode says to me is that the rabbis don't have much faith in their faith to be able to stand up to challenges.

Did you ever notice how it's always the zealots who claim to be the most devout and strongest believers that are the most sensitive to criticism or ridicule even to the point of violence? And they are always trying to punish some heretic or other, thinking that they need to God's work for Him, as though God couldn't do it Himself.

Well of course the Muslim didn’t complain, he’d be accused of being a terrorist, hating America and wanting to implement Muslim law if he had complained.

Well of course the Muslim didn’t complain, he’d be accused of being a terrorist, hating America and wanting to implement Muslim law if he had complained.

Probably...good point.

OK~ lets pretend this issue has nothing to do with billboards or neighborhood majority rules... PLEASE!

Q: Why do agnostics seem to be the only persons secure enough in their ideaology that they do not need to put together groups and advertisements for promotion...?!

A: Because they are smarter than all the religions combined. Conformity is conformity, by allowing any religion to market themselves, they cease to be tax exempt.

It's very simple: nationally mandate ALL religions to business status, or forbid them from advertising in ANY capacity.

And I have news for you: Atheism is very much a religion. Inasmuch as there is no science to prove the existence of supreme being(s), there is also no science to disprove the existence of supreme being(s)... This paradoxical conundrum is consistently ignored by every religion, including atheists. It's time to start asking ourselves why these (really basic) concepts are being ignored...

"religion is like masturbation, it's something private that people do to care for themselves, and most of us agree there is something wrong with people who do it in public".

Typical strawman arugment Sash9. Most Atheists are Agnostic too, in the sense that they don't claim there is no God. They just don't believe in Gods or deities. They surely need advertizing because Atheists are discriminated in the US, and this is the call to closet Atheists to come out mainstream. Atheism is as much a religion like non-stamp collecting is a hobby. If the majority collects stamps and the ones who don't collect stamps are being discriminated on the basis of not having a hobby, and if they do retaliate, does it make non-stamp collection automatically a hobby ?

Atheism is very much a religion. Inasmuch as there is no science to prove the existence of supreme being(s), there is also no science to disprove the existence of supreme being(s)...

Logical fail. Theism is an positive assertion of the existence of things beyond measurement...(extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs).

Atheism is not a positive assertion any more than "cold" is a thing in itself, rather than just a description of "lack of heat"...or "darkness" a description of "lack of light".

Toasty McGrath said it best:

Atheism is a religion in the same way that "not collecting stamps" is a hobby.

I would agree with both sides and say.....God is not a supreme being but rather an alien being with supreme technological devices at his disposal. Adam and Eve being cast out of the garden of eden (an alien planet) to the earth as punishment for their crimes.

The billboard isn't even directed at religious people, it's directed at agnostics and atheists within heavily religious communities who are afraid to admit that they can't displace logic and reason for the sake of that community's religion.

Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby, atheism is a religion like abstinence is a sex position, etc etc. I think a lot of people's confusion comes from the fact that the US Gov't considers "non religion" as protected under religious freedoms, so non-religion has equal protections under the law as religions. But still, that does not make it a religion. A corporation having the same rights as a person does not make the corporation a person.

Just wait

Logical fail. Theism is an positive assertion of the existence of things beyond measurement...(extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs).

Actually, no. Both require an amount of faith to be correct. Just as atheists do not believe in God, they have no circumstantial evidence that God does not exist. Their belief revolves primarily around what they are being taught, either by themselves or their community.

Culheath, I will not go so far as calling atheism a "religion", however it's agressive proponents are certainly religious in their pursuit of irriligion, aren't they. A religious person may be said to be scrupulously and conscientiously faithful. These athiests are certainly taking a religious approach to their fervent belief in no faith. They certainly are faithfully marketing their non-faith in an effort to recruit other non-faithfuls. So, my point is, whether you believe in a traditional religion like Judaism, Bhudism, Christianity, Islam, or have a fervent belilef in no such religion, you indeed are acting from faith. So, stop disrespecting faith in general. If you so fervently believe there is no god why do those who do matter to you? As Shakespear would say, "Me thinks thou doest protest too much." Why can't you simply relish blissful ignorance?

Both require an amount of faith to be correct

You are basically saying it requires faith to believe that there is not a golden teapot filled with skittles floating around Mars. Lack of faith isn't faith.

Now, one can have 'faith' in probabilities or shown cause and effect... like I have 'faith' I will be alive tomorrow. But that's not the same as religious faith. You're making a false semantic argument based off an assertion that religious faith and informal faith are the same.

These semantic arguments ya'll keep making are pathetically weak.



"Well of course the Muslim didn’t complain, he’d be accused of being a terrorist, hating America and wanting to implement Muslim law if he had complained."

That is what they do and want, you got it right!

The truth always hurts, the dark doesn't want light shined on it.

Most don't even understand that this little plot of existence we're in our short time here is already played out..We have no way of changing the futile fighting amongst ourselves, "this is just another desperate attempt"

The Father Son and Holy Spirit are their to keep the Demons in check, I just speak for myself.

Actually, no. Both require an amount of faith to be correct. Just as atheists do not believe in God, they have no circumstantial evidence that God does not exist. Their belief revolves primarily around what they are being taught, either by themselves or their community

You can't prove a negative. You can't prove something doesn't exist, only if it does. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence they say.

"You know it’s a myth … and you have a choice."

I wonder how that same message would be received on a billboard in San Francisco, the Village, P-town......

I think it's called respect? I could be wrong.

I think it's called respect? I could be wrong.

The fact that people still call for special deference toward these particular religions which have caused so much harm and strife is beyond amazing.

Both require an amount of faith to be correct

Absolutely. There's no scientific proof that there is a god, just as the non-existence of a god can't be proven. To believe in anything that has no scientific proof is called 'faith'.

Oh, they say "now you have a choice"...A choice to either be atheist or be ridiculed for your beliefs. Pushing an agenda of nothing is pretty funny, in my opinion. I'm a Christian that doesn't push my beliefs on them, why would they try to push me away from Christianity? What do they have to gain? Nothing.

What bothers me the most is why the billboard message? Why are they bothering religious people? Why can't a religious person like me just believe in what I believe in and the atheists believe what they believe and leave it at that?

Atheists always so things like "I don't want them shoving religion in my face". Aren't they doing exactly the same thing with these billboards? It's like they are looking for a fight.

Logical fail. Theism is an positive assertion of the existence of things beyond measurement...(extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs).

Atheism is not a positive assertion any more than "cold" is a thing in itself, rather than just a description of "lack of heat"...or "darkness" a description of "lack of light".

This analogy would be correct if the actions of Atheists stopped there. However, it fails as soon as the "non-stamp collectors" start forming organized groups for the sake of fellowship/support, quantify their opinions/arguments in literature, adopt a common moniker, distribute/promote their opinions/arguments to those not currently identified with their group and begin to justify their actions by claiming they feel a duty/responsibility to their group/opinion set to somehow indoctrinate/convert other individuals to their viewpoint.

While this does not qualify Atheism as a religion in the literal sense it does make them guilty of all of the behavior that they ironically abhor in existing religious institutions.

Another point of irony: Atheists would not feel compelled to perform any of the above actions were they not first attacked by the religious in the first place.

Absolutely. There's no scientific proof that there is a god, just as the non-existence of a god can't be proven. To believe in anything that has no scientific proof is called 'faith'.

What do you people not get about that it is IMPOSSIBLE TO PROVE SOMETHING DOES NOT EXIST and how that fact makes your statement completely illogical?!?

Above, someone said atheists assume religious people are ignorant, and THIS IS WHY, when you people can't even comprehend basic logic.

You say "to believe in anything that has no scientific proof is called 'faith" --- it's not BELIEF IN ANYTHING, it is the ABSENCE of belief.

Your logic EQUATES exactly to if I told YOU that it requires FAITH to believe that a golden teapot filled with skittles is not flying around Mars. There is no scientific proof that there is no teapot, it COULD be there. Do you need FAITH to lack belief in the flying teapot? Do you need FAITH to lack belief in unicorns?

It's not faith people, it's called reason and logic. You are lowering your religious faith to fit into the definition of what could be more accurately called a logical assumption. They are NOT the same thing. It's a logical assumption that I will work tomorrow, because evidence and precedent has shown that to be very likely. It's not anywhere near the same as 'religious faith'.

//rant//

While this does not qualify Atheism as a religion in the literal sense it does make them guilty of all of the behavior that they ironically abhor in existing religious institutions.

Yes, and no. There is no punishment espoused for not being an atheist. There is no belief among atheists that non-atheists are evil.

I too do not believe in organized religion. However this is as much about culture as it is about religion. The Hasidic Jews have a very distinct culture. Whether you believe in that or not it, is what they believe. It is not OK to put up a billboard attacking someone's culture. If it were in some general place that would be one thing, but to put it up in a Hasidic neighborhood or Muslim neighborhood, for that matter, is culturally insensitive and insulting. It is like Missionaries going around saying that indigenous cultural beliefs are wrong--a practice that Atheists abhor. Aren't we all fighting Right Wing evangelicals who are pushing there religion on everybody else?

I don't think i will ever grasp the concept of how much Atheists are becoming more and more like those who they proclaim to be ignorant. Rallies, billboards, non-profit status, and attacking anyone that doesn't believe what they believe. This progression into "enlightenment" is making them into nothing more than " a different name on the same face" and shoving beliefs down everyone's throats. maybe i am that rare person that enjoys the idea of a variety of life and beliefs, of people being of many cultures and ideas, embracing the human experience.

as for Muslims being tolerant, maybe trying to know some, my church two years ago, had the pleasure of having thanksgiving dinner with the muslims building a Rec. center next door, while the rest of the country was condemning most of the islamic world. For months they used our church to do their prayer services while they waited for their center was being built. Funny how a small church in the south "gets it."

I have two rules i live by, Love God and Love thy neighbor, and its the reason i have friends of every faith and lack of faith, from Jewish to Atheist, Buddhist to Hindu, etc... cookie cutter ideas get boring and rejoicing in differences get you invited to the best parties. Come on kids, life is too short become so small minded not to see we are all human and this country should embrace the ability of being "yourself."

What bothers me the most is why the billboard message? Why are they bothering religious people? Why can't a religious person like me just believe in what I believe in and the atheists believe what they believe and leave it at that?

Again, the billboard is directed at closet atheists. If religious people are bothered by that... maybe they should check their own convictions before criticizing those of others; because if your faith is true, then why would the atheist among you be so frightening?

You say "to believe in anything that has no scientific proof is called 'faith" --- it's not BELIEF IN ANYTHING, it is the ABSENCE of belief.

faith

   [feyth] Show IPA

noun
1.
confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another'sability.

2.
belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that thehypothesis would be substantiated by fact.

3.
belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: thefirm faith of the Pilgrims.

4.
belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit,etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.

5.
a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.

So, you're saying that your belief in the NON-EXISTENCE of a god isn't a belief? I remember an argument not too long ago when you 'corrected' me when I said that the 'absence' (the removal) of a religious idol DOES make a statement, while you people keep saying that 'Nothing doesn't equal something'...which is it?

What bothers me the most is why the billboard message? Why are they bothering religious people? Why can't a religious person like me just believe in what I believe in and the atheists believe what they believe and leave it at that?

There are those of us that are comfortable enough with our belief systems/opinions to not feel compelled to convert others. We exist on both sides of this argument. Whether we are in the majority or minority remains to be seen. Either way, there is nothing logical about this argument either way. The wisest of us can only shake our heads and try to inspire our more vocal counterparts to direct their focus and energy in more productive pursuits.

This analogy would be correct if the actions of Atheists stopped there. However, it fails as soon as the "non-stamp collectors" start forming organized groups for the sake of fellowship/support, quantify their opinions/arguments in literature, adopt a common moniker, distribute/promote their opinions/arguments to those not currently identified with their group and begin to justify their actions by claiming they feel a duty/responsibility to their group/opinion set to somehow indoctrinate/convert other individuals to their viewpoint.

Well, if non-stamp collectors were denied jobs, shunned, and ridiculed for not collecting stamps, then it would make sense for them to band together for fellowship and support in their struggle for equal rights.

And as far as trying to "convert" people to atheism: first, if your faith is as strong as you claim, you have absolutely nothing to worry about; secondly, THE BILLBOARD WAS NEVER INTENDED TO "CONVERT" ANYONE. It was put up as a sign of solidarity with atheists and agnostics in hyper-religious communities. If atheism wasn't so stigmatized by some religious people and groups, there would be no need for atheist organizations.

Yes, and no. There is no punishment espoused for not being an atheist. There is no belief among atheists that non-atheists are evil.

I've personally encountered quite the opposite. This leads me to believe that, while not a universally shared (and therefore definable) belief, it is a part of the culture, albeit a fringe aspect.

The problem is not so much a belief in the supernatural, but organized religions which turn people into narrow minded bigots, intolerant fanatics, and suck joy out of life in general. Abrahamic religions are especially good at doing all the above harm. I'm not sure atheism is the answer, as it is a narrow minded belief system as well.

"Emancipate yourself from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our mind..."

If that is the case, there are better ways to say so, such as: "Don't Believe in God? You're Not Alone."

That, by the way, was another billboard (but I think it was from a different group than American Atheists).

One other common confusion is the assumption that atheists are automatically anti-theists. That's not the case.

Well, if non-stamp collectors were denied jobs, shunned, and ridiculed for not collecting stamps, then it would make sense for them to band together for fellowship and support in their struggle for equal rights.

I believe I addressed this when I noted the irony of religion's culpability in this instance. You should to read my ENTIRE post before commenting.

And as far as trying to "convert" people to atheism: first, if your faith is as strong as you claim, you have absolutely nothing to worry about; secondly, THE BILLBOARD WAS NEVER INTENDED TO "CONVERT" ANYONE. It was put up as a sign of solidarity with atheists and agnostics in hyper-religious communities. If atheism wasn't so stigmatized by some religious people and groups, there would be no need for atheist organizations.

I purposely did not mention specific actions. Do not mistake your inference for my implication. Additionally, advertising for the sake of solidarity is, inherently, an endeavor undertaken by those who lack strength in their convictions. Hence, why I choose neither to promote nor defend my beliefs.

an infinity of regressions is not possible, joe jones. if it was, the universe would be infinite as well contradicting scientific facts saying that the universe began over 13 billion years ago.

if God was created, His creator and His creator's creator and so on and so forth, would be limited to space, time, matter. then you would need to cross an infinite number of regressions in the past to reach the present God. this would not be possible because infinity can't be crossed (it has no boundaries). not to mention the fact that the universe began to exist some 13 billion years ago, as stated above, making the universe finite.

based on that, and on the premise that something cannot bring itself into existence, an Uncaused Cause is the logical answer.

isaiah 43:10 God says, "before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me."

Luck DOES exist!

Everytime I have GOOD luck, I forget about all the BAD luck and say, "See? Luck DOES exist!"

Luck and the Great Pumpkin are real.

The problem is, like too many, they are getting a free ride on our dime; we the tax-payers of America.

They are another non-profit www. Atheists . ORG. They do not pay taxes so we directly and indirectly pay their way. This is like the Westboro Baptist Church; another non-profit. It is our money which enables them to picket the sacred funerals of our brave troops so that they too can promote their agenda.

Tax them just as we are taxed for our freedoms.

Shuklak, Take your statement 2.32 and place it in front of a mirror. When they go left you go right and when they go right, you go left.

You are over and again making both your argument and theirs.

How are atheists discriminated against, exactly? They want something religious removed from society, and it's gone. Then they go around putting up propaganda.

In trying to be free from religion, all they've done is create their own religion, one where every other religion is wrong. What's next, building their own "church?" Oh, wait, that's already planned...

The issue here is that Christians/Jews/Muslims and Atheists define "religion" differently.

Atheists define religion as belief in an ultimate being (or beings). Therefore, if you don't believe in an ultimate being you are not religious.

Christians/Jews/Muslims generally define religion as the ultimate orientation/concern of a person's life. In this sense, everyone is religious. Whatever one makes as their ultimate concern, that is their religion, whether it be money, family, politics, nationalism, sex, their dog, or Oprah.

Christians/Jews/Muslims attempt to make the divine the ultimate concern in their lives. In this story, the Jewish community against the billboard because it is offensive to the name of their god (which is a very big deal in the Jewish faith), not because they have it out for the Atheists.

C/J/M see Atheists as holding personal, human reason as the ultumate orientation/concern. Reason is the Atheist's faith. This gets problematic fast since the reason of some humans (Atheists) doesn't line up with many (most) other humans (J/C/M +). The fact that most people believe, with the use of logic, that there is a divine being(s) ought to give Atheists, who claim to rely strickly on human reason, pause.

The scariest part of all of this is the religious people on this forum and in this world that believe WITHOUT A DOUBT that there is a 'god' while having absolutely NO proof, facts or eyewitness accounts to prove their delusion.

And these same people scoff at science (ie evolution, climate change) while believing in books literally written thousands upon thousands of years ago by people who still didn't know about germs or atoms or even round planets.

Most were indoctrinated into this irrational brotherhood by their parents. Fed these stories of afterlives during their formative years and forced into continuing their belief by fear of an eternal punishment so severe even saying its name was considered a 'bad' word till you were at least 17 Amiright ?

Some of us actually broke away from the brainwashing and decided to not clutter our lives with superstition. We are a minority and while normally dormant, we see the resurfacing of religion in politics. Want an example ? Just watch any of the GOP presidential candidates this election or any from the last 30+ years.

Talking snakes and magical fruit .... sorry no thanks. I choose to make my life decisions based on reasoning and rationale.

Sorry Culheath, the Aetheism as a religion assertion is logical, and the stamp collection jibe, while clever fails logical validation. "Not stamp collecting" denotes the lack of any positive action. By contrast, Aetheism still contains a positive deliberate action. Remember, Aethesim is not the lack of believing in a god, but the active stated belief in no god. Aetheists are choosing a side in the argument.

Also, while I am not arguing for the validity of one belief or the other, as thats a personal matter IMHO, I will point out the irony of Atheists that do exactly what many complain about specifically, proselytizing and attempting to convert others. If a Christian meets an Aetheist and spends an hour trying to get him to believe, or an Atheist meets a Christian and spends an hour trying to disprove Christianity to him, they are both the same. People forcing their beliefs on others.

And I have news for you: Atheism is very much a religion.

Do you believe that "off" is a television channel?

So it is a fraternity or a club??

What bothers me the most is why the billboard message? Why are they bothering religious people? Why can't a religious person like me just believe in what I believe in and the atheists believe what they believe and leave it at that?

Then why is everyone constantly barraged by Christian billboards? In about a 3.5 mile section of highway I drive in the morning I see around 4 church billboard, an anti-evolution billboard and a black billboard with "You can run, but you can't hide-God" on it. So, why can't Christians believe what they believe and leave everyone else alone? You/these are the reason the atheist billboards are needed.

"Not to mention the fact that the universe began to exist some 13 billion years ago, as stated above, making the universe finite."

I wish people would understand what they talk about. Pick up the "A Brief History of Time" by Mr. Hawking and try to read it with understanding. Nobody claims the universe "began to exist" 13 billion years ago. What was 13-18 billions of years ago was a "singularity point". What that means is that even if there was anything (even an entire universe) "before" it does not matter because the current laws of physics and the casuality chain for us started to apply at the singularity.

In other words it is not that "before" did not exist - it is merely that is has no impact on the scientific method and the current state of the universe and hence is ignored. Quite the same with God/s. Science does not claim there is no God, merely that is has no impact on scientific method and hece should be ignored.

How are atheists discriminated against, exactly? They want something religious removed from society, and it's gone. Then they go around putting up propaganda.

Good example of discrimination. The good "Christian" doesn't care if he can help further the children's education:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/02/22/in-georgia-a-school-board-president-faces-opposition-simply-because-hes-an-atheist/

Pretty self explanitory. Also, read the above concerning Christian propaganda

How is putting up a billboard "cramming atheism down our throats"?

Just as I see religious billboards EVERYWHERE, atheists should be allowed to espouse their beliefs too.

If you feel threatened, you should question how deep your beliefs really are...

I believe I addressed this when I noted the irony of religion's culpability in this instance. You should to read my ENTIRE post before commenting.

You're right. I did miss that bit tacked on to the end of your post. I apologize for that. Let's say we agree on that. The rest of my post was not directed at you. You did not comment on that, so my response was pretty clearly directed at those who did.

Additionally, advertising for the sake of solidarity is, inherently, an endeavor undertaken by those who lack strength in their convictions.

I disagree with this wholeheartedly. The lack of strength is not in their convictions. Having a lack of solidarity and support in a certain community cannot be equated to having a lack of conviction. If a believer lived in a community of rabid atheists and was afraid to express their beliefs, that does not mean they lack strength in the convictions of their faith. It means they fear the repercussions of expressing their faith to those around them. Seeing an ad from others of their faith might help them feel less alone, but I doubt it would make much change to the strength and sincerity of their belief.

Let us look at history and even our First Amendment....Separation of Church and State

Just to prove their point: on leaving a mass rally for peace held under the slogan "Yes to Peace, No to
Violence," Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by a Jewish right-wing extremist. Speak of the irony of devout faith based movements! Yes, just as here with the murder of those that want freedom and shelter from the dictates of religulous zealots, they murder you in good faith even with god on their side...delusional.

The simple but powerful concept of not being to prove a negative and the brutal and devilish even demonic behavior of many of these ardent "believers" is completely lost on "the faithful". Put sanctimonious "ricky sticky" Santeria and his flock up against the president and let us have a fair and honest vote. Tax the church all churches no more tax exemptions. We can't afford it.

athiests, much like those who believe in God, are not all motivated in thier beliefs for exactly the same reasons....there are those who are athiests because of the "lack of evidence" of any God, but remain open to the possibility should such evidence present itself...then there are those who are athiests because they hate religion or religious persons,..the lack of evidence of gods existance plays little or no role....these come in different forms,...victims of religious oppression,..people who rebell against relgious moral values,...people who engage in questionable moral behavior, such as sexual extremes or other such behavior contrary to the larger societal norms....then there are the weak athiests,..who dont believe in god because they never had to...these are the ones who deny that god exists but will pray to him if they feel they need help with thier lives,..."please god dont let me loose my job"...or some similar sort of prayer......i personally agree that organized athiesm is, for all intents and purposes, like organized religions and therefor can be loosly classified as a religion....being an athiest, it does seem weird to me that they organize in ways that are very similar to religious groups...i see no reason for this behavior other than to create a "religious like" situation, where you fellowship with other non believers, further athiestic views in the community, convert others to thier way of thinking, etc etc...essentually its because these athiests are looking for the same validation that religious folks do....odd.

The billboards are NOT directed at religious people!!!!! duh!!

You religious people stop being so self-centered.

Do you believe that "off" is a television channel?

It is when you watch it. Which is the point made by other before me in this thread.

First, to answer a lot of opinions above, atheism is NOT a religion. I do not believe in Leprechauns, Bigfoot, Unicorns, Lochness Monster, those are not a religion either. Not believing in something is NOT a religion.

Second, as an atheist, I am actually ashamed of these billboards. I think Christians should be ashamed of people like Rick Santorum and any outward push of their beliefs as well. These billboards do nothing to help people in those communities who might be closet atheists, they only insult believers. It is an aggressive move that is at the least controversial and will spark outrage. Not believing in any God for me is logical, but I have no desire to make others come around to my line of thought. I wish for them to keep their religion out of my life as it annoys me and actually sometimes offends me, but would never advocate shoving an anti-belief at them. That goes against the concept of my beliefs as a whole.

Bad form, just bad form.

"Why
can't a religious person like me just believe in what I believe in and the
atheists believe what they believe and leave it at that?"

this got me... I am not an atheist... however I am not a Christian or Jew either... the reason we (other non Christians and Jews) can not leave it alone is because we are not allowed to... if we make one comment that says i am not a Christian or Jew we are ridiculedand then bombared with scripture that we are wrong... so yeah we will go our way if you allow us too... but you don't so we do have the right to say 'Hey we have the right to believe what we believe...'

as for the billboards... I cannot tell you how many times I have driven down the highway across this great country of ours and see "Jesus loves you" or something similar… which once again goes to the above statements…

Christianity is the only religion that gets away with this in this country... I have never seen a sign that say "Jesus was wrong come back to Judaism..." or something similar

srikar atheists are definetly not a persecuted minority in every federal court case the judiciary takes their side. As in Midland Texas where the judge gave the christian student a list of 15 phrases he wasn't allowed to say in his graduation speech inc "may we please have a moment of silence" and threatened the school supertendent with jail if the student disobeyed. As far as the billboard goes I doubt if the Catholic church would be able to put one on that building either. You have a religious/ethnic group that if I remember doesn't even allow the name of God printed in public asking the owner of private property to not allow something they consider insulting to their religion to be placed in their neighborhood.

srikar atheists are definetly not a persecuted minority in every federal court case the judiciary takes their side. As in Midland Texas where the judge gave the christian student a list of 15 phrases he wasn't allowed to say in his graduation speech inc "may we please have a moment of silence" and threatened the school supertendent with jail if the student disobeyed. As far as the billboard goes I doubt if the Catholic church would be able to put one on that building either. You have a religious/ethnic group that if I remember doesn't even allow the name of God printed in public asking the owner of private property to not allow something they consider insulting to their religion to be placed in their neighborhood.

Not prosecuted? Give me a break. In Maine there was an instance where an atheist student fought to have a religious plaque taken down from her high school. Shortly after trying to petition its removal she was called all sorts of foul names, spit on and received death threats. Claiming that atheists aren't persecuted is absurd and entirely ignorant of the reality of the situation.

The scariest part of all of this is the religious people on this forum and in this world that believe WITHOUT A DOUBT that there is a 'god' while having absolutely NO proof, facts or eyewitness accounts to prove their delusion.

I've got all the proof I need. That its no good in your opinion is for you to contemplate. I don't really care.

And these same people scoff at science (ie evolution, climate change)

Not me. Its funny how people are generally okay with stereotypes until it happens to them.

while believing in books literally written thousands upon thousands of years ago by people who still didn't know about germs or atoms or even round planets.

I've got all the proof I need. That its no good in your opinion is for you to contemplate. I don't really care.

Most were indoctrinated into this irrational brotherhood by their parents. Fed these stories of afterlives during their formative years and forced into continuing their belief by fear of an eternal punishment so severe even saying its name was considered a 'bad' word till you were at least 17 Amiright ?

Not me. Its funny how people are generally okay with stereotypes until it happens to them.

Talking snakes and magical fruit .... sorry no thanks. I choose to make my life decisions based on reasoning and rationale.

Good for you. Live righteously and act according a good and decent moral standard and I've got no beef with you. As for everything else, that's between you and your soul.

As for the person who stated that belief in God is the one thing we don't have a choice about, I contend its the other way around; that its the only choice we get to make.

Joe Jones,

Mr. & Mrs. God! Duh! From what planet are you?

"First, to answer a lot of opinions above, atheism is NOT a religion." ...

"That goes against the concept of my beliefs as a whole."

army-3854635

So let's get this straight. Atheism is not a religion. Yet you are concerned because "religious" people push their beliefs. And then you assert "that it goes against my beliefs as a whole."

It could be me but it sounds like you are religious to me.

I'm told by my Hassidic Co-worker that Hassids don't speak hebrew, they speak english or yiddish, they do however study the bible in Hebrew and consider the name of god written in hebrew sacred... So they are not really targeting hassids in their language (Yiddish), they are combining something they consider sacred with blasphemy and making the hassids watch... That is not proseletizing that's just trying hard to offend a group you don't agree with... That's just her take on it anyway...

"Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby"

Ok, if it isn't a religion, then why organize and try to push your views on others. And before you say you aren't trying to push your views, why the objection to the mention of "God" in the Pledge of Allegiance? It shouldn't make any difference to you one way or another as it is just a word. Or is it because you want to remove someone elses right to worship pink ponies if they wish?

I must admit, the mythologies that these people believe in really stretch the modern imagination, but why is it an issue for you (atheists)? I personally feel sorry for both sides of the issue. The religious because of the restrictions imposed on their lives and the yokes placed on their minds. The atheists because of their lack of imagination and narrow-mindedness as well as the absense of hope in their lives. Personally, I am a Deist. Deists believe in the existence of God, on purely rational grounds, without any reliance on revealed religion or religious authority or holy text. Basically, God created the universe, set it going, left, and hasn't been seen since. Before you atheists start "preaching" to me like a fundmentalist promised a chicken dinner; quantum physics screams intelligent design to me. If you don't agree, that is fine; just don't push your views on others.

"First, to answer a lot of opinions above, atheism is NOT a religion." It can be. You can say that atheism is absence of faith. But religion is no the same as faith: religion is the regulated, institutionalized and ritualized expression of faith.

Once you institutionalize, regulate and ritualize absence of faith - it becomes a religion (organization of people with the same philosphy of believes).

I do think the religious zealots of these communities are responding probably very similarly to how these American Atheist organizations would respond to the request that a billboard slamming atheism be erected right on the street in front of their organization.

You go right into the church and tell every person there they are crazy, it's actually pretty similar to going into the street and telling everyone they are going to hell (or going into an atheist organization and telling their children there that).

Not sure what the point of these signs are, other than to cause problems.

mvlaan, Look up the word belief. It has nothing to do with religion. Religion associates the meaning of the word with its doctrine. Beliefs are what guide us. Everyone has beliefs. I have no beliefs in religion, but do in many other areas.

My beliefs are beling kind to one another. Helping those less fortunate. Standing up for thsoe who cannot stand up for themselves. Defending equality for all. Promoting opportunity for all. My beliefs have nothing to do with religion. I stated above how I did not like the billboards and think they should not be put up. My beliefs are to let religious people live as they choose. Most of my family and friends are religious. They are great people who live great lives. I do not choose to challenge or insult them, and would argue against the billboards as much as I would argue for gay rights. Pushing any agenda on others is wrong. That is my belief.

It's more than "provocative", as stated in the article; it's a downright "illegally targeted, not only unsubstantiated, but also "impossible to substantiate" claim" AND it TOTALLY figures that it (the "concept" to go on the billboard) arises out of "today's version" of a so-called Advertising Agency and the Epitome of just exactly what the concept of "target marketing" IS NOT.

The only way this billboard could be considered Free Speech is if the intentional and purposeful "foreign" language was removed, leaving Free Choice of whether or not Individuals in the neighborhood would care to seek the translation of what is being said, (which is also targeting and using their own language) or not; instead of having no choice but to be "assaulted" by it. The Landlord made the RIGHT decision to not be pulled into it. (I think)

Pax, by your definition any organization is now a religion. The Moose, the Masons, the American Legion, the VFW. They are all organizations who's members have similar beliefs. Heck, a local book club fits your definition of religion. I am not trying to provoke any religious debate. I have said three times now I am against the billboards. I want atheists to leave all religions alone. Keep the "In God We Trust", keep all religious references. Those are fine to me. They do not bother me. They are part of what made our country great. I know many atheists to not leave well enough alone, and that is what I am against. I am speaking for me, but know many atheists feel the same.

I also wish for Christians, Muslims, Jews, or any other religion to have the same respect. I will stay away from your customs and out of your life, I would prefer the same in return. Respect and equality could do a lot to heal our country and allow us on focus on the right issues.

Ok, if it isn't a religion, then why organize and try to push your views on others. And before you say you aren't trying to push your views, why the objection to the mention of "God" in the Pledge of Allegiance? It shouldn't make any difference to you one way or another as it is just a word. Or is it because you want to remove someone elses right to worship pink ponies if they wish?

Anyone with a shred of honesty knows the word "God" is in the pledge as an attempt at identifying America as a Christian nation and distinguishing ourselves from communists.

The atheists because of their lack of imagination and narrow-mindedness as well as the absense of hope in their lives.

I don't think you actually know many atheists. I don't need some magical sky pixie to have hope that a bad situation might turn out better, and frankly I think it takes more imagination to question whether something exists than to mindlessly believe.

Before you atheists start "preaching" to me like a fundmentalist promised a chicken dinner; quantum physics screams intelligent design to me. If you don't agree, that is fine; just don't push your views on others.

Anyone who thinks they understand quantum physics doesn't.

Javondare -

That is a dishonest comparison. The claim of 'not wanting others religions shoved down our throats" is invoked when the christians try to codify their scripture into our laws. Not when they put up billboards proclaiming their belief. There must be tens of thousands of christian bilboards on private property in this country. And no atheist has ever asked that one be taken down.

too every one saying that you cant disprove something extrodinarry:

I can disprove a whole host of things, that I am not in a flying scauser, that you dont breath air, that air doesnt exist. The burden of proof goes both ways. Saying that there is no God is a claim you must prove, same with the poeple that say there is a God.

look at my post in the first comment if you want too see my proof why God exists. Then try too disprove them with logic(that doesn't mean saying that the earth was made perfectly by a random accident or something simular to that argument)

Marie Haughey -

How are atheists discriminated against, exactly? They want something religious removed from society, and it's gone. Then they go around putting up propaganda.

Do you consider Christian billboards "propoganda"? There are tens of thousands of them on private property all over the USA and not one has been protested.

This is a simple case. A group bought advertising space on a private billboard and another pressured the owner of the advertising space not to run it. That is all.

If it had been a christian group that had its billboard nixed, this board would be flooded with cries of free speech violations, which for once would be accurate.

I'm a Christian, but I think they were trying to get across to the closet atheists, not the religious.

I can disprove a whole host of things, that I am not in a flying scauser, that you dont breath air, that air doesnt exist. The burden of proof goes both ways. Saying that there is no God is a claim you must prove, same with the poeple that say there is a God.

Let's do something different. Why don't you prove that the Christian God is more valid than the Muslim's Allah or the Chinese Buddha?

walthgreen - Sorry Culheath, the Aetheism as a religion assertion is logical, and the stamp collection jibe, while clever fails logical validation. "Not stamp collecting" denotes the lack of any positive action. By contrast, Aetheism still contains a positive deliberate action. Remember, Aethesim is not the lack of believing in a god, but the active stated belief in no god. Aetheists are choosing a side in the argument.

Wrong.

Look at it this way - do you believe in Zeus, Quetzacoatl or Cthulhu? Why not? How much mental energy is expended and neural resources devoted to your non-belief in those deities? Is that non-belief in Quetzacoatl a religion? Where do you non-believers of Cthulhu hold your meetings?

@lolfattynerdswhoknew Anyone who thinks they understand quantum physics doesn't.

I don't think you actually know many atheists.

Anyone with a shred of honesty knows the word "God" is in the pledge as an attempt at identifying America as a Christian nation and distinguishing ourselves from communists.

Seriously? You make alot of blanket statements; you must be the definative authority on everything! Point #1 I have an excellent LAYMAN'S understanding of quantum physics; they make Cliff's Notes even you can understand. Point #2 My wife is atheist as are many of my friends; they just don't care what other people believe, they won't argue about it because they don't know who is right (nor care, being atheists and all). Point #3 You are correct, we aren't a communist nation. Communists are atheists, aren't they?

Christian Socialist Francis Bellamy (1855-1931) in 1892 and formally adopted by Congress as the pledge in 1942.^[1] The Pledge has been modified four times since its composition, with the most recent change adding the words "under God" in 1954.

WTF, it was written by a christian SOCIALIST and not even he put in the words "under god".

Official versions (changes inbold italics)

1892

"I pledge allegiance to my flag and the republic for which it stands: one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all."

1892 to 1923

"I pledge allegiance to my flag andto the republic for which it stands: one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all."

1923 to 1924

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States and to the republic for which it stands: one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all."

1924 to 1954

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America,and to the republic for which it stands; one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all."

1954 to Present

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God,indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Keep dickin with it until... Kinda like the bibull.

And then there`s the Bellamy Salute;-)

Look that one up ye followers of this christian socialist.

Keith.

I agree 100%, and Several of the framers of the US Constitution along Albert Einstein who were all Deist, also agreed. A Deist like myself believes in a Supreme intellect, creator of all else, but not religious establishments which are man created political establishments who seek to control through fear of the otherwise.

Belief in God doesn't require religion. It is organized religion that has messed it up because religion is an invention of man. When you trace back most major organizied religions, they pretty much go back to the same source so it seems pretty logical that they actually have the same God. Yet all the same, the religous views of God and what he wants from us humans seems quite different depending on which religion you believe. Seems to me that they all have to be at least part wrong.

But that aside, what I found interesting in this article was who the advertising company with the billboards is. Clear Channel advertising. Yep, that's right, part of the very same company that owns all the right wing Clear Channel radio stations whose premier celebrity is Rush Limbaugh. The very same company that is now owned by Bain Capital. Yep, that's right, the same Bain Capital Romney worked for and now owns a significant portion of. Pretty ironic I think. I guess money doesn't really care about God, morals or religion. It's all just about making more money no matter who you use or abuse to get it.

NewDay, found that very interesting myself.

The idea of an omnipotent God came from religion. Before religion, people worshiped what they saw in the sky which was the Sun, Moon, and stars. If you people don't believe in religion than why believe in religion's main component, which is God?

Science can now explain how the stars, Sun, and the Earth came into being. To invoke some magical being that apparently started the whole process is to just create more questions, in which we will never have the answers to.

"Prophets have existed in all countries and at all times; but the gift becomes rare in the same proportion as people learn to read and write."-WINWOOD READE.

Sadly, organized religion, in its quest for money and power, has ruined religion for many people.

I look at Jesus and then at the Pope and think: alot was lost in translation...

Shuklack, Toasty,

I see you on here daily and you both are usually very well spoken. I have been here since 2008 so I am well aware that you are both athiest.

Today, you are trying too hard. Practice what you preach, your smarrter than that.

Terror Bird is pretty darn close.

I agree that government entities should not promote a religion/ non religion. But the atheists today are not happy just controlling government entities.They want gag orders from the government on any christian citizen who might say the word god. If you don't believe me check out the order given to a student in Midland Tx in January. 15 phrases he wasn't allowed to say including "may we please have a moment of silence" Our children have 1st amendment rights too.

"The idea of an omnipotent God came from religion. Before religion, people worshiped what they saw in the sky which was the Sun, Moon, and stars. If you people don't believe in religion than why believe in religion's main component, which is God?

Science can now explain how the stars, Sun, and the Earth came into being. To invoke some magical being that apparently started the whole process is to just create more questions, in which we will never have the answers to."

Because one of science's best theories for how the universe happened is "It came from nothingness." Sorry, but "God did it" is right in that same boat. Besides if mankind survived long enough, we could one day start getting answers one way or the other

I am not an atheist, but I do believe that most of organized religion is a force for evil. I look at people like Rick Santorum or entities like the Catholic church that systematically try to force their faith on others by means of legislation, and I see examples of the very things that common sense tells us is wrong.

No person of good conscience could continue to be part of the Catholic church with its long consistent history of violence, greed, corruption, and sexual depravity. I would be ashamed to tell anyone I was Catholic unless I were purposely hiding my eyes from the truth.

What Muslim can look at the long bloody history of Islam and not hold their head in shame at the violence committed in the name of Allah?

Judaism has become a complicated web of meaningless traditions with no connection to real life conduct. The meaning of the law has been long lost by the multiple layers silly traditions piled upon it.

Protestant Christians - You are just as bad as Catholics! GET OUT OF POLITICS! Quit trying to force your beliefs on me by legislation! If you want to call yourself a Christian, then start acting like Christ!!!

Hindus - I admittedly do not know enough about your religion or history to take a serious shot at you, but how are all of those gods helping you when it comes to the poverty, disease, and class-disparity in India? Which god is the god of slumdog starvation?

Buddist - I am not sure you are even organized enough to be considered part of organized religion. However, I am not totally sure how finding the sound of one hand clapping makes me a better person. It certainly has not made East Asia a better place than it was.

Atheists - don't think you are going to get off the hook though. Your smug arrogance and condescending, negative message of "life is pointless" and "it doesn't really matter what you do" and "we were all a random accident in an infinite uncaring universe" certainly are not endearing to the heart and do not make a person better than he was. Love and hate are chemical responses in my brain. DNA is far more complex and efficient than any computer ever invented, but that came out of a puddle of goo billions of years ago. You believe in a finite universe that began 14 billion years ago with the sudden expansion from nothing, but purport that something mathemically impossible happened in this finite universe. When cornered on the facts, you just flip flop into another theory that lets you stay just comfortably out of reach of an intelligent first cause. Like a religious person, you can only ignore the facts for so long though...

That's not true. Religion was not created to become political power houses and to rule by fear. I believe Religion was for us to get a better understanding of what is expected of us by our creator. Religion enables us to put these lessons to practice and gain more perspective by congregating with others who have similar beliefs. Of course, Religions are runned by humans and greed along with other imperfections are a part of it. As a believer, I seperate what I believe is right and what is wrong. Of course, if you are atheist, you will fail to see my point because you do not believe in the God, the Almighty, our creator.

Organized religion: The very face of evil.. Everything that God hates about humans, our intolerance, our horrid bigotry, our ignorance in refusing to grow and evolve can all be laid at the door of organized religion! Organized religion, the DIRECT cause of BILLIONS of innocent deaths throughout the centuries! Men, women, children and babies put to the sword or tortured in a thousand different ways because they didn't believe the same way those in power wanted them to believe!

The Bible, The Torah, The Koran, etc! Books written BY men, FOR men! Whole chapters and testaments thrown out by different religions down through the ages because they didn't like what they said.. They didn't agree with their philosophy at the time.. Old men wrapped up in musty robes, dedicated to superstition and rituals that signify nothing, mean nothing and do NOT address the problems of today! Living in the past, hoarding vaults of stolen artworks, gold and ancient artifacts like misers.. Desperate to put women back into the past, refusing to recognize equality.. These are the leaders of organized religions that many of you follow and believe in.. Churches/Synagogs/Temples or Mosques, the names don't matter, none of them believe in or care about mankind at all, but only in holding on to their own wealth and power!

God IS alive and well and He (or She or It) is all around us, but, most importantly, inside each of us.. When we treat each other with respect, with decency and good manners.. When we respect the natural world and rejoice in the beauty of it, THAT'S when we are truly worshiping and honoring God.. He doesn't need our money, why would any God need money? He doesn't care about building huge monuments and places to worship Him, that money would do so much more good going to HELP solve all of the world's problems..

What He cares about is the destruction of the natural world that still goes on today.. What He cares about is the inequality between the wealthy and the poor, which increases daily.. What He cares about and fears most is more war between those who believe one way and those who believe in another way.. He has seen us slaughter each other in HIS name since the dawn of time.. Imagine, just imagine how YOU would feel is someone murdered millions of people in YOUR name!! And WE do it all the time!

Everyone has a right to worship how they want, but, in truth, God doesn't care how we honor Him or where we pray or how we pray to Him.. All He ever wanted was for us to take care of each other, to honor and respect the rights of each other, nothing more, nothing less..

Whether you believe in God or not, it is the RIGHT of the individual to CHOOSE for themselves how they want to believe and no one, NO ONE, has the right to deny that privilege to them!

I accept that there have been many psychos that have been part of organized religion. I can also tell you that very few honest Christians are proud of it. If you look at what the Church teaches and what some of its members do, I can see why you think the way you do. The mistake you make is that you believe the actions of the people in that faith reflect what the faith is about. Peter was the Rock upon which Jesus built the Church. The point of the Church was not to make lives easier for the leaders, (which I acknowledge had happened) but to make sure that people don't break away from the teachings and power of Christ (which is also what has happened). Christian churches have done many good things for the world that people seem to want to dismiss when it goes against their opinions. The hospitals, charities, and schools are just a few of these things. Much of the suffering that comes from religion happens when people abuse their power. To blame organized religon for those people's actions is a generalization.

Peter was the Rock upon which Jesus built the Church.

That is the Catholic interpretation. There is only ONE rock that the church was built on that is Christ.

You can only have one cornerstone.

1 Peter 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

The rest is made up of many rocks.

1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Jesus named Simon, "Peter" (πετρος Petros) as an attribute of himself. Just as He named James and John, Boanerges (Mark 3:17).

He is saying to Peter:

I gave you a new name that reflects me as the foundation. You are part of that foundation. I am the cornerstone.

The church is built on believers, like you, that follow me.

This understanding is derived from many verses of scripture and putting it together.

We are all little stones in Gods church. We, and Peter, are little stones built upon Christ, the main stone, the cornerstone.

Saying the Church is built upon Peter creates 2 cornerstones.

Wouldn't this statement "being the chief corner stone", imply more than one corner stone? Most buildings have 4 corners, if you get my drift. I understand what you're saying about being little stones.

When building a building a reference point was established. That reference point is called the cornerstone. It is level, and square. Everything was measured from that point. After that all the other stones are just stones.

The RCC has based almost everything on the idea their church was founded on Peter because of that one passage. Even Papal infallibility. Yet Peter was flawed in his doctrine and Paul took him to task in Galatians 2:11-14.

Paul, formerly known as Saul, I don't put much stock in his words. I don't trust him for obvious reasons. That goes for the Catholic Church too! They are like a candy apple, and the apple is rotten.

Ahh, but Peter admitted he was wrong - and changed what he was doing.

I agree that the pope may live a lavish lifestyle and many popes have been worse than the 20th century dictators, however, without leadership, different sects can form very quickly. Without leadership and organization, there'd be as many different Christian religions as there are Christian people. If our government disappeared, anarchy would rule, and I don't know many people who want that. The same concept applies. The RCC needs leaders who are learned in the Scripture and Jesus's message. I'm not saying you don't know anything, but I am more likely to put my faith on those that devote their life and profession to Jesus, and listen to the many opinions about Scripture. Though the pope is leader, the Magesterium makes the laws in nearly the same way our government does. On the subject of infalliblity, it has only been used twice. You may not agree with either of them, but it is a power that is very seldom used, and has yet to be abused.

Corruption will always be in the Church as long as it exists, but there are many in it who are very close to God and know what they are talking about. I will do my best to distinguish the difference. I will ask God for wisdom to know what is best.

When you look at the 7 churches mentioned in Revelation 1 ALL of them failed, and were failing as the bible was being written. There is no basis to believe it is necessary to trace some kind of hierarchy back to any apostle.

The RCC says you must put your faith in men. These men will keep you true.

The bible teaches us to put our faith in God. God will teach us truth.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

See also 1 Corinthians 2:12-14

There is no mention in the bible of asking any man for truth.

The entire structure of the Catholic church is in rebellion against the principles established by the bible.

The RCC uses 1 Corinthians 7 as their justification for REQUIRING the priesthood to remain unmarried.

The RCC uses v8 to present the idea that Paul oversaw the church and he wasn't married. The bible isn't clear if Paul had never been married. It is perfectly reasonable that he might have lost his family by disease, shipwreck, vandals, storm, or some other catastrophe.

1 Corinthians is in response to immoral behavior within the church members and is directed at the general congregation. It is not a guideline for operating the church. 1 Timothy is a guideline for operating a church:

1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

The word Bishop (episkopos) means Overseer. In charge of the church. From the Pope to the Parish Priest.

There is good reason for that. Having succeeded in developing a sound family is the training ground to operating a church.

1 Timothy 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

None of the people in charge of the Catholic church are qualified to run a church.

When you follow men you will go astray.

All through the bible we have example after example of men being unable to follow God. Even the Jews following God through the desert failed. Solomon failed. They all failed. Every institution failed, now the RCC want's you to think they haven't? Clearly 1 Timothy shows they have.

JOregon is right, you don't need to follow any organized religions. However JOregon is still not entirely right. Take words from Susie @ #4.12. The Bible is published by men, men with power. What do you expect men with power would do? Published something that would take away their power? You got to be kidding.

MadaTx what power does the Bible take away, the power to murder, cheat and steal? Is the athiest orginazation going to give you that power back.

Why do athiests need to form a union of members for a belief in nothing other than to tell me my belief is wrong. The argument of 'not collecting stamps hobby' plays to my side of the argument better than the athiest. the athiests are telling the world we believe that we do not believe. Great very intresting, now please contribute something worth our time in listening to you.

I am a theist. I do believe there is (a) god(s). What the Bible takes away is the truth. I am not saying the Bible is completely wrong. There are lies within truth and some truths within a lie. That is the way it is.

Why do athiests need to form a union of members for a belief in nothing other than to tell me my belief is wrong.

I'm sure you've noticed how big a part religion is playing in politics these days. Santorum should be running for pastor, not president...he plans to (try and) enforce religious laws on the nation. Romney wears magic underwear and donates more money to the mormon church than he pays in taxes, so it's pretty clear where his true loyalties lie. Gingrich is late blooming catholic that (by his own church's beliefs) has been committing adultery non-stop for decades, but still feels he is qualified to be the "moral guide" of the nation. If you are an atheist, these people are scary. They want to take away our freedoms and impose their beliefs on us. Since atheists, agnostics and non-religious people are a bigger minority than black people, NRA members, Latinos or Jews...we should, like those groups, and like all religious groups, have a voice in our nation's representation. It's important, politically, for atheists and agnostics to organize, to avoid being victims of religious oppression. (comprehensive sex education, abortion, gay rights, creationism in schools, stem cell research, access to birth control...and on and on)

So you see...it has nothing to do with you....or with telling you that you are wrong. Don't feel bad, all atheists have been accused of only being atheist to piss of theists. For some reason...theists seem to think it's always all about them.

The argument of 'not collecting stamps hobby' plays to my side of the argument better than the athiest. the athiests are telling the world we believe that we do not believe. Great very intresting, now please contribute something worth our time in listening to you.

Atheists don't believe in gods. Some people do...they are called theists...some don't...they are called atheists...and some don't think we have enough information to reach a conclusion...they are agnostic.

Not believing in gods is no more a religion than not believing in unicorns. I know theists often have trouble imagining a life with no religious beliefs so they make a lot of wild ass assumptions about what atheists believe...but that's just theist projection...not reality.

If you are an atheist, these people are scary.

Sort of WRONG

If you are a true born again believer these people are scary.

That doesn't make them any less scary to atheists.

Nearly every theist claims they are the only "true" theist whenever they disagree about something...and they tend to disagree about a lot. From this side of the fence, you all look pretty much the same. Mostly because those of you with...say....kinder....theist beliefs, don't speak out against the ones with the rabid, fundie ones. You will jump in and say "not me, I'm different" but you won't jump UP and say "not in our laws". That pretty much makes you one of them.

That doesn't make them any less scary to atheists.

They should be scary to any sane person.

Nearly every theist claims they are the only "true" theist whenever they disagree about something...and they tend to disagree about a lot.

Absolutely true.

It is best to search it out on your own and not rely on what people say is true.

When I was an Atheist I knew that was truth. There was no question in my mind there was no God.

Then I guess I grew a bit by being willing to accept there might be realities beyond my understanding.

That made me an Agnostic.

Then I came to grasp the greatness of this universe, and I began to believe in a Higher Power.

I read about Edgar Cayce and reincarnation made enough sense that I decided to search it out.

I became convinced Reincarnation was truth.

I became fascinated with the idea and read various books on it.

Somewhere along the line I was told reincarnation was originally part of the bible and could be still found there. I also realized almost all of these teachers quoted passages of scripture. I thought about how many different faiths are founded on at least part of the bible.

I decided to read the bible to see if I could find these truths. By now I was certain there was a God, I was confident reincarnation was true. I decided to study the bible by going right to the source, right to God. I asked God to show me the truth in the bible. I specifically chose to not read the bible by any pattern or by man's direction. I ignored the headings, and the notes, and just read believing firmly in God to show truth.

I began to realize reincarnation wasn't in the bible. It took several years after that to eliminate my belief reincarnation could be truth.

When I first became a Christian I followed the teachings we are so familiar with, all you have to do is accept Jesus and then you are saved (Arminianism).

I never quit going to God for my guidance and I began to see problems with the word and the Arminian Theology.

In a somewhat unusual event I got my hands on a book of sermons from CH Spurgeon. It covered those passages that didn't line up with Arminianism. I found a new belief system based on the bible and I accepted Calvinism as the truth.I also discovered it was an old belief system, the original colonists were mostly Calvinists. Today Calvinist churches are hard to find.

I've backed off of the hard core Calvinist theology and believe it is a little of both.

You have to accept that there is a God, then God can lead you to truth, but you have to be willing to let him lead you.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

So ya there are a lot of people claiming they have the truth. Theists including Atheists all make the claim.

The real question is do you care enough about the truth to admit when you have been wrong?

kinder....theist beliefs, don't speak out against the ones with the rabid, fundie ones. You will jump in and say "not me, I'm different" but you won't jump UP and say "not in our laws". That pretty much makes you one of them.

You aren't familiar with me are you?

#2.70 #1.31 those are two comments on topics where I have done what you requested. How about that? I did it before you requested it. Feel free to read those comments and others. Are you surprised that I am not alone in this?

I thought about how many different faiths are founded on at least part of the bible.

You have that backwards...almost all of xianity is from other, earlier religions. The virgin birth, the "messiah", the 12 apostles, the baptism, the beheading of the baptizer, the crucifixion, dead for three days and then the resurrection, and much more...were all elements from earlier religions.

I decided to read the bible to see if I could find these truths. By now I was certain there was a God, I was confident reincarnation was true.

Based on other people telling you these things were true...but you believed it because it was written in books? Oh.

I decided to study the bible by going right to the source, right to God. I asked God to show me the truth in the bible. I specifically chose to not read the bible by any pattern or by man's direction. I ignored the headings, and the notes, and just read believing firmly in God to show truth.

There's all sorts of good things in the bible. A great deal of rubbish too. But I imagine if you intended to "find truth" and read any book...you'd find something there. I've read Edgar Cayce and dozens of other sources, including the bible....none of it "converted" me. There is some truth in all of it...but none of it is all truth.

I began to realize reincarnation wasn't in the bible. It took several years after that to eliminate my belief reincarnation could be truth.

Yeah...I'm sorry...but I'm not buying this. If you are an atheist it's because you don't believe in gods, because there is no evidence for the existence of gods. Just reading books about other people believing in gods, is not evidence, and it's not going to change your mind. This sounds like a weak attempt to bring atheists into theism....and looks totally fake because it doesn't show any understanding of what an atheist would require in order to become a theist.

I've backed off of the hard core Calvinist theology and believe it is a little of both.

It sounds like your beliefs change as often as the weather...based on whatever you've read last.

You have to accept that there is a God, then God can lead you to truth, but you have to be willing to let him lead you.

Ah...the old catch 22. Trouble is..what you might think is "the truth" is a crock of ca ca to me. I see absolutely nothing about theism or theists to make me think they have any special insight into reality...in fact...the opposite appears to be true. Nor am I capable of the level of self-deception necessary to "believe" in something I simply don't believe.

So ya there are a lot of people claiming they have the truth. Theists including Atheists all make the claim.

I know what I believe is true. What you believe is your business.

The real question is do you care enough about the truth to admit when you have been wrong?

Of course. I've been wrong many times. But you haven't proven I'm wrong. You've only described your own journey from atheism to theism....and as an atheist...I find it very difficult to believe.

You aren't familiar with me are you?

#2.70 #1.31 those are two comments on topics where I have done what you requested.

That's all very nice....but I wasn't talking about newsvine...I meant doing something in the public arena that clearly shows that these theist nutjobs do NOT speak for all theists. That's not happening. There is some of it here and in other forums...but not a peep where it might do some good or count for anything. No congregation has asked their pastor to speak out against these people, no protests are taking place at how they are exploiting religious beliefs for political gain...nothing. Just silence.

How about that? I did it before you requested it. Feel free to read those comments and others. Are you surprised that I am not alone in this?

It's not what I was talking about...and it's pretty much meaningless. The vast majority of theists do not feel comfortable with any of the gotp candidates...but they will vote for them anyway...just because they are theists.

Until they speak up in public and demand leadership from our leaders, regardless of their religious beliefs...then they are a big part of the problem.

You have that backwards...almost all of xianity is from other, earlier religions. The virgin birth, the "messiah", the 12 apostles, the baptism, the beheading of the baptizer, the crucifixion, dead for three days and then the resurrection, and much more...were all elements from earlier religions.

cite?

Where did you ever hear that?

Based on other people telling you these things were true...but you believed it because it was written in books? Oh.

? You lost me, maybe I lost you.

none of it "converted" me.

The hardest part is getting past a closed mind. That is always the hardest part when you are certain what you believe is true.

There is some truth in all of it...but none of it is all truth.

Your opinion.

Yeah...I'm sorry...but I'm not buying this. If you are an atheist it's because you don't believe in gods, because there is no evidence for the existence of gods.

I was an Atheist. I did not believe there was a a God, and I even felt certain I could prove it. The problem was my proof was the bad teaching you usually hear such as a place called Hell were people are tortured for all eternity.

Both of my sisters, good people, are still Atheists.

Just reading books about other people believing in gods, is not evidence, and it's not going to change your mind.

You feel you need proof, not evidence. There is plenty of evidence, it just depends on how you look at it. That is that open mind thing. Click HERE and tell me, what do you see?

It sounds like your beliefs change as often as the weather...based on whatever you've read last.

What is the point of gaining knowledge if you don't let it teach you? Only people with closed minds aren't willing to accept what they learn.

Nor am I capable of the level of self-deception necessary to "believe" in something I simply don't believe.

Then you aren't able to believe in God.

Yours is a path of destruction, but there is nothing I can do to change you.

It also appears you don't want to change. Your choice, I don't think badly of you for it. It is sad when people are determined to not believe, sort of the same problem we have with the Westboro Baptist types that are determined being gay is a choice. Closed minds.

I know what I believe is true. What you believe is your business.

I know what I believe is true. What you believe is your business. ;-)

That's all very nice....but I wasn't talking about newsvine...I meant doing something in the public arena that clearly shows that these theist nutjobs do NOT speak for all theists. That's not happening. There is some of it here and in other forums...but not a peep where it might do some good or count for anything. No congregation has asked their pastor to speak out against these people, no protests are taking place at how they are exploiting religious beliefs for political gain...nothing. Just silence.

I belong to no congregation. I once did but I disagreed with the way the SBC was going. I first spoke out when our pastor handed out voting "suggestions" in church. I made it very clear to my pastor that I felt the church was overstepping it's bounds.

I also spoke out against "Promise Keepers" I think he began to see I was right on that one.

I have written to some pastors out there when I have felt they had gone over the line and presented the scripture as support. Whether they read it or accepted it is beyond my means.

One church had made some Westboro type statements recently and I went to their web site. They had a comments section so I commented. They wouldn't post anything before they accepted it. My post was not posted, but I made the best point I could.

Other than that I really don't care what they usually say. They are entitled to their beliefs just as you are yours. They don't represent me nor do I think they represent Christ. They don't care what I think.

Still there is hope maybe someone will realize there are good sound Biblical objections to what they do.

The vast majority of theists do not feel comfortable with any of the gotp candidates...but they will vote for them anyway...just because they are theists.

No, most theists are not followers of these clowns. Apparently there are more believers than you realize out there.

One thing I do know, you can't stop prejudice by being prejudice.

cite?

Where did you ever hear that?

Are you serious? You haven't heard of Horus? Or Mithra? Or Dionysus? All of them were religions thousands of years before xianity...and they share most of the major elements with xianity. Look them up.

? You lost me, maybe I lost you.

Well...you started out by saying: "It is best to search it out on your own and not rely on what people say is true." and then went on to say how the things you read changed your mind. Now I'm all for doing research and so on...but if you are going from "there is no evidence of gods and no proof of gods, so there are no gods"....to "these people believe in gods despite there being no evidence so I will believe too"...then it's not the same as finding evidence or proof that would change your mind...it's just more opinions from other people.

The hardest part is getting past a closed mind. That is always the hardest part when you are certain what you believe is true.

You'd be amazed at the stuff I believe...once I have some evidence for it. Even subjective evidence. I do not have a closed mind...and I'd be delighted to meet a god. I have no aversion to it. I just haven't ever had any evidence of one.

Your opinion.

So yours is that the bible is all truth? Have you actually read it all?

I was an Atheist. I did not believe there was a a God, and I even felt certain I could prove it.

That's impossible. You can't prove a negative.

The problem was my proof was the bad teaching you usually hear such as a place called Hell were people are tortured for all eternity.

That's not proof....it's just another reason to think it's ridiculous.

You feel you need proof, not evidence. There is plenty of evidence, it just depends on how you look at it. That is that open mind thing. Click HERE and tell me, what do you see?

Young woman looking away and a crone looking down. You consider that evidence of something? Of course there are many different ways of looking at things...and yes...perception can even alter experience...but it doesn't create magical invisible beings where there weren't any. It can only make you think they are real, it doesn't make them real.

The god of the bible showed up....he walked in the garden with Adam, he spoke to Moses on the mountain, he had regular chats with Abraham, he performed tricks like a staff turning into a snake and parting the sea. But nothing...not one peep for over two thousand years? Not one single thing that was written in a letter or a different book...nothing. Just the stories from that one book. Nothing before...and nothing since. We have more "evidence" of dragons....there are hundreds of books and references about them, spanning many thousands of years....but no one is telling us to "believe" in them.

What is the point of gaining knowledge if you don't let it teach you? Only people with closed minds aren't willing to accept what they learn.

True enough...but many people read the same books and reach entirely different conclusions...so it isn't a result of "knowledge" but of choosing to believe certain things. (and for the record...just believing something different than you believe...does not mean someone has a closed mind...it just means they have reached different conclusions).

Nor am I capable of the level of self-deception necessary to "believe" in something I simply don't believe.

Then you aren't able to believe in God.

No...I'm not. There is absolutely nothing in the real world that suggests there is an invisible, magical being that can read my mind, grant me wishes or randomly perform acts of horrific violence and cruelty or kindness and compassion. I can't make myself believe it...and there was a time when I tried.

Yours is a path of destruction, but there is nothing I can do to change you.

No...mine is a path of a happy and fulfilling life, with a good marriage, a loving spouse and family, good friends, prosperity, health and kindness. I wouldn't want it changed. I find it arrogant and insulting that you presume to say it's a path of destruction, based on nothing more than my atheism...to me that is just pathetic fear mongering in an attempt to coerce belief or behavior. You have absolutely no knowledge of what path I'm on or where it leads, regardless of what you might believe.

It also appears you don't want to change. Your choice, I don't think badly of you for it. It is sad when people are determined to not believe, sort of the same problem we have with the Westboro Baptist types that are determined being gay is a choice. Closed minds.

Uh....what? Being unwilling to believe outrageous stories with no evidence...does not denote a closed mind...it's denotes a sane one. Is your mind closed because you believe something and that excludes all contrary beliefs? If you refused to look at viable evidence that might threaten your beliefs...perhaps...but since there isn't any viable evidence...then it's just a rational conclusion, not a closed mind.

I belong to no congregation. I once did but I disagreed with the way the SBC was going. I first spoke out when our pastor handed out voting "suggestions" in church. I made it very clear to my pastor that I felt the church was overstepping it's bounds.

It was. Churches in this country are just another PAC. They should have had their tax-free status rescinded long ago.

I have written to some pastors out there ....

All well and good...but it still isn't what I was talking about.

No, most theists are not followers of these clowns. Apparently there are more believers than you realize out there.

Who do you suppose is voting in the primaries? Theists are debating which of the three gotp front runners is most theologically like them. They think romney can win, but he's a mormon...and that's unsettling. They love santorum, but he's far too crazy to win in a general election, and gingrich....he's just a sleaze ball rolled in a nutty layer of "holy".

One thing I do know, you can't stop prejudice by being prejudice.

It's not prejudice I'm talking about...it's religious oppression in the form of a majority theist population electing "leaders" based solely on their theist beliefs and having them write and enforce theist laws on those of us who aren't theists. I don't have to like it to recognize it. I don't have to "respect" beliefs that are all about disrespecting me. Even you couldn't resist telling me I was bound for destruction...so why shouldn't I feel prejudice against beliefs that prejudice me?

Religious beliefs being forced into laws that oppress women, children, gays and minorities...is that really what your idea of America is? Not free, not equal...but plenty religious? That's where it's headed...being supported by theists like yourself who add your numbers (by your silent assent) to it.

This is why atheists have to raise billboards and raise awareness. This crazy train has to be stopped somehow.

Still debating over god I see? As an agnostic I find the whole affair funny and a tad pointless really, but each to their own :). I do have to agree though, that we should be keeping religion way out of politics, and especially religious laws, I mean it’s not like we are Saudi-Arabia

Huh thought this board was dead.. anyways yeah you're right in this but these two groups will keep fighting and they will keep getting others people's business trying to gt them to convert to the other side.

sometimes it's even harder to be a agnostic person these days.

Don't forget the HUMAN FUND, MONEY FOR PEOPLE........ George C.

BRAVO!!!! I am sharing this on my facebook page!

Live in peace? Read your history books, tool. The so-called "Christians" and "Muslims" and "Jews" have been afflicting this Earth with violence for thousands of years. Until WW2, 99% of people killed in wars were killed in religious wars. The "faithful" are the most ignorant, violence-prone people on this planet, and the smart folks are finally turning their backs on the organized crime organizations posing as churches or temples. Once again, if there truly is a God, the "faithful" of this world are f**ked!

Bruce,

You made that up. It is pure fabrication. "99% of people killed in wars were killed in religious wars?" Mind citing your source for that steaming pile? It is a lie, pure and simple.

Your attempt to make religious people out to be bogeymen is shameful. Stop spreading intolerance, hate and lies. Thanks.

Who sets the bar for human "perfection". I bet you won't be able to get a room full of people to agree on what perfection means. That would change with the breeze.

What happens if living with each other in peace meant everyone passively accepting the murder of innocent lives? But just AMAZINGLY peaceful (like I mean everyone is just in zen mode when they slice the persons throat - including the persons throat that is being sliced because they are brainwashed or something).

So... Bruce in Austin... If I believe in God, that makes me violent? Beware... I am are everywhere!!!

Bruce - go back to school or at least read some history. WW2 had nothing to do with religion but with the extermination of Jews seen by the Nazi's as a subhuman culture. Not to mention 10x the number of Russian's Lenin/Stalin had killed again seen as a subhuman subculture. Thousands of years? I dont think Islam or Christianity have existed for thousands of years. Simple math should have told you that.

Religion isnt the problem. It is used by man to mask the hatred of other cultures we perceive as subhuman and therefore not worthy of life. The problem is us. We cant seem to learn to live with each other.

While I think 99% is a pretty high number there were a high number of killings committed in the name of one religion or another. The Crusades, The Thirty Years War, French Wars of Religion, Lebanese Civil War, Second Sudanese Civil War, ect.. ect.. Quite a number of people killed from wars started over religious beliefs.

For those who believe, no explanation is necessary;

Nor is any other explanation accepted!

for those who don't, none will suffice

At least not without evidence or proof.

I'm sure that "99%" figure was wrong up top. But he's not completely wrong. More people have been killed on this planet over "religious differences" the any other reason. The major religions have been tearing this world apart for thousands of years now. And while I admit they have done some good, for every person they have helped....2-3 have died over some crap difference. (And no, those aren't exact figures. They are common sense figures)

Re: religion and war

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.

In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross.

As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people....

When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.

-Adolf Hitler, in his speech in Munich on 12 April 1922

Jonathan F

WW2 had nothing to do with religion but with the extermination of Jews seen by the Nazi's as a subhuman culture........... Thousands of years? I dont think Islam or Christianity have existed for thousands of years.Simple math should have told you that. Religion isnt the problem. It is used by man to mask the hatred of other cultures we perceive as subhuman and therefore not worthy of life.

Wow Jonathan, where do I begin?

How about the thousands of years? Simple math buddy right? What year is this? 2012 sound right? Well, Christ died over 2,000 years ago. I know there were religious wars between the various sects that adhered to the old testament back then, as well as the Pagan religions of the region at that time.

Don't tell me the Nazis were not having a Crusade of sorts, he convinced the German Nazis that Jews were evil Christ killers among other things. Yes that they were subhuman as well, but don't forget how many other countries have expelled and killed Jews. England, France, Gremany, Spain, Russia, Poland, and so on. Why, because they were Christ killers. The Irony is that the Romans did it.

If religion is not the problem, then why have religious organizations of all beliefs been killing others since the beginning of history. It goes beyond the modern faiths of Islam, Christianity and Judaism. Before that it was Monotheism v.s. Polytheism.

Fact; Religion kills.

Hitler was willing to say anything for power.

Kind of like Jim Jones or more than a few Popes...doesn't mean they didn't believe in what they were saying though.

MB your argument is valid when the religious morons let others live in peace. Can an Atheist run for president in this country ? Aren't Atheists discriminated in this country ? Hell, I have known religious dimwits who feel outraged/threatened by the mere existing of atheists, who don't believe in their fairy tales. And it is irony that Atheists are equated to the religious deluded fools.