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Subscribe to RSSMore information on the alleged killing of 16 civilians in Afghanistan by a U.S. soldier continues to surface, and the Morning Joe panel wonders how the Army Staff Sergeant was able to leave his base to conduct the shootings. Vanity Fair's Sebastian Junger and MSNBC's Col. Jack Jacobs join the conversation.
NEWS ANALYSIS
At the moment, we know only that a 38-year-old U.S. Army Staff Sergeant left his post and shot to death 16 civilians in Afghanistan, including nine children and three women, and surrendered soon after the incident. Others were wounded and may not survive. The sergeant's wife and children in the United States have been relocated and are under the protection of the American government.
News of the attacks has spread slowly across the country, but thousands of people took to the streets in the eastern Afghanistan Tuesday to demonstrate against the killings, burning an effigy of President Barack Obama and chanting “Death to American.”
There have been NATO casualties in the area in the wake of the incident, but most of the American activity is not daily active combat with the enemy, but instead public works projects and the training of Afghans. In this regard, it is telling that the sergeant was able to walk unaccompanied and unmolested to the sites where the civilians were killed.
Protests break out over Afghan shootings
He is in American custody and, pursuant to the agreement between the United States and Afghanistan, will be prosecuted under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. This means that a General Officer, probably John Allen, who commands U.S. forces in Afghanistan, will appoint an officer, almost certainly a military lawyer, to investigate the incident. The investigator will interview witnesses and
then make a recommendation to the commander about how to deal with the case.
This process, called an Article 32 Investigation, is the military equivalent of a grand jury, but unlike in a civilian procedure, the accused can be represented by counsel and cross-examine witnesses. The commander can follow the investigator's recommendation or not, as he sees fit, but in this case if the investigating officer recommends a trial by court-martial, you can bet the sergeant will be tried.
The U.S. Army staff sergeant accused of killing 16 Afghan civilians, including nine children, comes from a U.S. base with a troubled history. NBC's Miguel Almaguer reports.
There has been much discussion about the fact that the non-commissioned officer was on his fourth trip to Southwest Asia, implying that the stress of repeated deployments may have been the proximate cause of a breakdown that resulted in this tragic violence. While we should not be sanguine about the huge demands we place on our undermanned and overtaxed forces, specious arguments justifying the outburst are easy but dangerous to construct.
Most murderers have not served in the armed forces, and there are many thousands of American troops who have murdered nobody, but have more deployments than this suspect. Coincidence is not causation.
NYT: An Afghan elder comes home to find a massacre
Breakdown in the chain-of-command
What seems most striking about the incident is the failure of this sergeant's chain-of-command. The camp is guarded all the time, and particular attention is always given to security at night, when this soldier departed. There is a sergeant of the relief, supervised by a sergeant of the guard, supervised by an officer of the guard, supervised by an officer of the day and a field officer of the day.
Furthermore, troops live together continuously, often in close quarters, and it is impossible to envision a situation in which nobody had any inkling of his propensity for violence. He worked for another sergeant who worked for a lieutenant or a captain, all of whom lived with him. The investigation will include interviews of his comrades, his leaders and his family. His snail mail, email and social sites will be scoured, and all of it is likely to reveal that his commander either did know, or should have known, that this violence was possible, or even probable, and that this man should have been removed from the unit.
If this sounds familiar, it is because the situation is similar to that of Maj. Nidal Hasan. His supervisors knew that he was unstable and did nothing about it, and in 2009 Hasan killed 13 people at Fort Hood, Texas.
For the moment, the National Command Authority has reiterated its commitment to the mission in Afghanistan, with some withdrawal of conventional troops slated to begin in 2014. But with an increasing number of influential people, including prominent Republicans, convinced that we should withdraw sooner rather than later, it's certain that there is already a plan for an accelerated pull-out beginning in 2013, soon after our national election.
Nevertheless, whether troops are in Afghanistan or the United States or anywhere else, the stringent and vital requirement of good leadership is the same. Being in the uniform of the U.S. Armed Forces is not just another job and indeed is like no other endeavor in the world.
Yes, we ask far too much of brave people who are willing to sacrifice for us, but when their leaders forget or ignore their awesome responsibilities, the result is often tragedy.
Read more from Col. Jack Jacobs
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"Yes, we ask far too much of brave people who are willing to sacrifice for us, but when their leaders forget or ignore their awesome responsibilities, the result is often tragedy."
Here you go!
Only Bush Jr could attack Iraq without consolidating in Afghanistan, another toughest battle zone.
So the chain command points to the failure of Bush, Jr and his advisors!
Not much should be done to the poor soldier caught in the war grinding machines of Saudis, oil companies, lobbyists and their cheap puppets!
Or else, who would do drum beatings on Syria and Iran?
he was in his fourth tour of duty, each tour is 18 months; that means he has been in combat at least 5 years, ww-2 lasted from 12/41 to 8/45, ;(less than 4 years) does any one know of any solider in any war to be in combat that long; shell shock, battle fatigue, ptsd, whatever you call it, this is a breakdown of a person, Panetta is already calling for the death sentence, without knowing anything about this solider or the facts of the case; talk about a rush to judgement.
This was the article I've been waiting for... While this Staff Sargent was attached to another unit, he came out of the 5th Stryker Brigade, which has become the sore thumb of poor military discipline over the last few years. They were nearly denied deployment just last year because they were so disfunctional.
Saxom, tours haven't been 18 months for about the last 3 years. Most are now a year. But even if you subscribe to the PTSD as part of the reason he did this, that is not the same as insanity. Legally, in the military, insanity has to mean that you didn't know what you were doing. You didn't understand that it was wrong. The very fact that he turned himself in and that he got out of the wire alone probably precludes that defense. PTSD is a mitigating factor. It might keep him from the death penalty.
saxon
if this had happened here in the US (which it has before if you read the article) WE would be calling for him to be drawn and quartered, revived so he could be hung, then brought back from the dead and shot and all that would be in the court of public opinion (which is what happened in the prior incident here in the USA). SHORT of his being under orders, in writing, he deserves punishment. Using the excuse of diminished capacity is not an excuse. The only thing it points to is that others need to be prosecuted if it is found there were any indications he might do something like this.
Jonathan-1982062
BUSH had nothing to do with this. While he may have gotten us involved in the war it didn't happen on his watch. While I did not care for Bush please keep that aspect of the politics out of it as it only makes you look like you are stirring old dirt.
I am astounded that you Obamanites even try to blame Bush for this event! You are so wrapped up in the BS of someone else did it that you are totally blind to reality. Nothing like this happened on Bush's watch. The abject failure of leadership and appologies and disdain for our military of this administration is enough to drive many over the edge. Then to bring the old "Bush did it" back into the discussion is enough to make one physically ill. You Obamanites need to have your head examined.
How about America get out the sergeant's, commander, the commander's superior, and superior's superior and anyone else who is a part of this war in Afghanistan and Get the FO of dodge.
As for the sergeant who committed this heinous act, sayonara MoFoe you get to stay!!!
Peace!!
Yep, blame Bush. Don't bother to consider that The Obama has been in charge for over 3 years and done little to change matters.
Gee, we retrict our troops ability to fight with rigid rules of engagement, while their opponent infiltrates their base dressed as women, snipes at them from family compounds filled with women and children, use women and young boys as suicide bombers, torture and murder any of our people taken captive, torture and murder any Afghan that might possibly have said a polite word to 1 of us "Infidels".
Yeah, there was definitely a command failure. With all the surveilance drones in the air, any Afghan national openly carrying a weapon, or gathering of more than 2 outside a market place should be immediately targeted with an Hellfire.
The biggest problem is the Afghan people are terrified of the Taliban and not of us. We are seen as weak. Betray us, no big deal. Be suspected of betraying the Taliban, the whole village will disappear.
I've been deployed before and I can tell you, your sense of reasoning is a far cry from what it is here at home. There, tensions are so high, it doesn't take a whole lot for someone to become irritable and irate. I recall a friend of mine getting into a small argument that set her off to much she karate kicked her door and broke it in half. Back home she's the nicest person I know. I remember getting into a screaming match with someone over basically nothing. I really wanted to butt stroke him in the head with my rifle. Back home it would've been a trivial matter that at the most, ended with a finger flip. We had fist fights and destruction of property cropping up all over the post. There were people who were perpetually angry that were always pleasant to be around in the states. I know this can't compare to what this soldier did but I can see this level of internal tension building up over time, especially after so many deployments. If, like so many soldiers I know, he had a chain-of-command that didn't give a darn and worked at making life even worse for their soldiers, this surely added to the problem.
The big issue I have is, how was he able to just leave the post without being stopped and questioned at the gate? It's really not supposed to be that easy. Usually you're supposed to leave in a convoy, not individually. Either someone wasn't watching or he convinced the guard(s) on duty to let him go. Maybe he promised them something; booze, money or other goods.
Osiris, could you imagine living in such a totalitarian society that you couldn't meet with your friend in the market?
You're crazy and a jerk for wanting to put that on other people.
its all in the numbers, and being we have what no other war had to offer, internet and at lightning speed.
look. we have more troops now on duty since who knows when, starting with Afghanistan, into Iraq, and any other Clinton, Bush sr, or what have you admisinstration since i thik WWII? only massivly less loss of life compaired to any way for the lenght of time it has been transpiring, to include losses to civilian life. the enemy dresses like a civilian, its a difficult war to fight. These people have seen bloodshed, and violence all their lives to the likes that if it were to happen here? I dont think we as Americans as a majority have the capacity to hand what they see on a daily basis, almost every day.
but back to the numbers. with the number of troops we have, thus due news on demand, this is not out of norm in comparison percent wise. Being a former soldier, there is a close knit between you and anyone you serve with. you keep eachother alive for a cause you believe in, keeping people safe from the likes of terror, and anything else that stands in the way of keeping our nation safe. For almost all of these brave men and women, this isnt just "something to do", its the thing to do. It isnt just because they know no other life, but want to help people like us as well enijoy life, verses living in fear from the likes faceing them now, like those in Iraq since we gave up. His squad should have been able to pick up on any problems, and he never should have been allowed to leave the base. How that could possibly have happend no clue, but it shows some lack of security that i can guess they now will not let happen again.
This guy was on his 4th tour of duty. He also had sustained a head injury in a vehicle rollover in 2010. The injuries and subsequent healing from that accident needs to be investigated to see if it may have contributed to his behavior in this shooting.
We can't do 10 years of continual war without a draft. Either bring them all home now and end this BS war, or EVERYONE needs to serve their time in the military.
lynsey, you can enlist anytime. And until you do so, voluntarily, you have no right to be demanding a draft. Sorry but I really don't want my son to have to shot people.
Heartbreak all around! Our government, from the top down, to include the Pentagon, will have to look at themselves and this country's insatiable appetite at ruling the world and it's resources and lose the 'shock & awe' mentality. Wasn't "9/11" enough? Weren't the tragedies at our military bases enough?
We've only had a bird's eye view of the Afghans and their loss as their country has been in turmoil for more than forty years, not to mention the hundreds and thousands of lives lost in the Middle East as well as those who have been displaced to adjacent countries throughout the region.
Finally, lets not forget our own courageous men and women who are our country's true warriors. We must see to them and provide precious care to them and their families. Lastly, multiple deployments with a small number to defend this country at time of war results in this kind of tragedy--for everyone.
The mouth-pieces will need "to put their money where their mouth is" and cease bashing the perpetrator and allow justice to take it's course. Blessings to his family who require our understanding and support, and finally, to those innocents who were murdered. How does one come to terms with all of this?
So true! With the revolving door of troop deployment into hostile lands inhabited by blood thirsty deviant sub humans and we wonder why things like this happen. I find it amazing this doesn't happen every day. The lives and treasure we have spent trying to improve the lives of these ungrateful fanatics is incomprehensible and UNFORGIVABLE. Our soldiers have paid the price to protect us with one hand tied behind their back. Politicians that put them there are living the life of luxury protected from harm BY OUR DOLLARS. and these poor men and women are left to endure mental illness and forsaken by the same people that sent them there. I do not condone what this soldier did, BUT I UNDERSTAND WHY HE DID IT. 16 people, almost all women and children, WHERE WERE THEIR MEN, THEIR MEN WERE OUT PLANNING TO KILL AMERICAN SOLDIERS. Now we will forsake this man and cow tow to our enemy's rage while they burn our Bible, while they create the circumstances to rape us with unrealistic fuel prices. Wonderful thanks for our thousands of dead and billions of dollars WE NEEDED TO HELP OUR OWN CITIZENS. ALL THIS FOR OIL COMPANY'S PROFITS.
it's "shoot" adam, and i dont think thats a call you need to make, i think that is a call for your son or daughter. just as it was for me, my brothers, cousins, uncles, and right on down the chain of command... for some, its in their blood, like it or not, to serve someone greater than themselves. in what manner they choose to do so, is their own, and their own calling, if not instinct.
if any one of my children, decide to join, it is my duty as a parent to support them, and be brave, because that is the job they chose, someone elses life, is always worth saving. if it makes any of you feel any better, what i am referring to does not in more ways promote violence, but prevent loss of it, from people being victims. some of you can not imagine what this life these people will be stuck with if we just bail on them, like we did with Iraq. just wondering with our current track record will calling it quits, will be the end result of a salute from the back of our heads. Our congress approved of going to Iraq. it doesnt matter what the pretenses were, or why. Fact is we went, and we didnt finish a job, that would have made a difference, if our politicians to include current president (gag), were not more worried about getting a vote of popularity. NOW! our men and women who can not find a regular job, are being recruited to do the same job they were doing, only with no protection from our government. no help do they get when injuries affect them from continuing, leaving them disabled, no bennies, nothing. just what the taxpayer would have to offer any other American with no job and means of income. the street, or a home in some facility paid for by taxpayers for rehabilitation of any degree you care to imagine. this is where our unemployed troops are going. they call them contractors, and those who have no clue other than a Chuck Norris lost in Nam movie, call them merc's.
this is a total shame, and we allow it. our men and women lost their lives for nothing.
i also think well did for some time time in the service should be a mandatory requirement, as a duty to show support for your country. it should be a part of becoming a citizen if looking to live here to serve in some for of capacity to the government as a service, not a welfare check.
If we're going to point out spelling errors...no I won't.
Somehow this is now about my son having the right to decide whether he will serve in the military or not. Hmm.
I guess by your gag reflex to the presidents' mention that you're a Republican (welcome). How is it that you can you suggest that service should be a mandatory requirement but also espouse your political leaning with the party that is supposed to be about liberty and limited government.
All right if everyone has to serve than everyone has to be on food stamps as well. Do you realize that mandatory service is a major component of communist government policy?
My son does serve something greater than himself. His name is Jesus and he's better than any military man.
Do the Afghanis and Iraqis who live in this same war zone all also suffer from shell shock? Some of them do become terrorists, yes - some because they already have a criminal bent of mind, others because they have been pushed into it due to seeing many deaths of loved ones.
Do we spends millions of dollars to analyze what caused them to become terrorists? Or do we just go bomb them?
Adam -
Maybe, if the draft were reintroduced, our so called statesmen would hesitate before sending troops into harms way.
I would like to know how hawk-ish the chain-of-command is and which ones are loyal to their Commander-in-Chief and which ones are working for members of Congress who want to see President Obama fail - and therefore, our country fail!
Brian - A draft would work only as long as politician and corporate sons and daughters were the first to be drafted.
Nam: First it was anyone who did not go to college. Then it was anyone who did not maintain their grades. Then it was anyone who was married. Then it was anyone who had no children. Then, more than one child......then the youngest of brothers...then the only brothers left. Oh! But of course there were deferments for people like Dick Cheney and sons and daughters of the political and influential. They had deferments and stateside assignments in the Air Force and National Guard. Those assignments were "recommended" by members of Congress at the time - they had a quota....and a big ole bunch of power at the time.
@AnIndividual: I can see you may not have much experience with the military. The military members swear or affirm allegiance to the Constitution of the United States and to obey the orders of the officers appointed up to and including the Commander-in-Chief. The members of congress are not in the chain of command, so loyalty to members of congress is a non-issue.
Hahaha. Oh Brian, that is rich!
@ AnIndividual, if Obama succeeds then this country will fail. The day the Feds started telling us what to do and what not to do is the day this Country started to go down hill. They can make recommendations as what to do and not but leave the decisions on what I do to me. I know what is best for me better than they do
So Adam, mandatory service is only for communism? How about Israel, Austria, Brazil, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Mexico, Norway, South Korea, Switzerland? Looks like you wouldn't want to serve under any circumstance. Let others and their kids do it. I personally see nothing wrong with 2 years service, military or otherwise, for all able bodied citizens.
everyone needs go play the game "risk" for a month...it is the art of war..we are done unless we go on defense....is very simple..we have more enemies now than we have ever had..it's no joke//we need special operations troops...need the best of the best stand up..90k troops are not help us anywhere.
cincy - You mean we should consolidate and take Australia?
nekatseman -
You can call me a little disillusioned but occasionally high a ranking officer with their eye on a retirement lobbying position might forget that.
Did I say it's only for communism? I just think it's extremely hypocritical for the same person to both be against welfare programs (the re-distribution of money through taxes) and at the same time support a draft (the forced service of citizens).
I think I know what it comes down to though. No one likes their money taken from them but they don't mind hypothesizing about sending other peoples' children to war.
And yes, you are right, I would not want to serve under any circumstances, especially in America. Have you seen the amount of conflicts we've gotten into since WWII? Most of them, extremely ill-advised. I certainly don't trust the hawks in DC with my life or my children's lives.
Shaking my head-2479300
then you go on to make the statement.....
sort of calling the kettle black there aren't you pot?
The closest you can blame the "administration" is it happened on their watch. The failure of command, if it exists, happened much lower in the food chain. Whether something like this happened on Bush's watch or not is a non issue, unless you are saying blame can be placed at the highest levels simply because it happened on their watch (9/11 for example???) Both events were a systemic failure at some level.
Now that we are in a downsize mode in the military we need to figure out a better way to cycle troops through situations we find ourselves in. It isn't going to get any better so long as we allow the politicians to dictate the USA are going to be the world police. Perhaps it is time we retire a FEW generals and a WHOLE (capitol) hill of politicians and get comfortable with some other superpower stepping up and settling juvenile disputes between nations. Let individual nations resolve their own internal quagmires and don' let us get sucked into them. If that means short term shortages of oil and other basic resources get used to it. It may actually be cheaper all the way around in the long run.
"How could the soldier leave the base" -seems to be the question:
Well folks, the AFGHAN guard at the gate let him out!
This is not a chain of command failure- it's just the Afghans screwing around as usual.
NoAliasAdam - I am at a loss to make sense of your argument. You don't want to serve in this country's military yet you feel perfectly capable of taking the benefits of living here. I served. I didn't like some of the things I had to do but I didn't feel someone needed to do them for me. Everyone would like to see us extracted from the Middle East. Nobody likes to think of their children making the ultimate sacrifice. As long as we are entangled in that area we will continue to have a military presence. As long as our troops are there there will be casualties; someones children. We need to deal with what exactly we owe Israel and what we owe to the regimes we've installed in the countries we've invaded. Once that is clear we can go forward with either leaving them to their own devices or bringing the hammer down once and for all. Adam, I believe service is something everyone owes their country; you don't, and that's your opinion. If you are content to live under the protection of others, well, that's on you.
Isn't that the rub? Well, it is if you consider the necessity of military action in order to be protected. Do you think the citizens of say, Mongolia, with their minimal military, are safer than an American citizen? What makes a citizen safe is not the military it is the foreign policy of a nation. And I am sorry to say that I don't think you protected me by fighting people in Afghanistan. I personally think you've helped make me less safe.
Well, No Alias Adam, I'd say you have things precisely wrong. The draft is society requiring something of you. Welfare programs is society giving something to you.
That is a big difference.
I am in favor of restoring the draft. As to various social welfare programs, I make up my mind on a case by case basis.
trust_verify: You have to analyse the good and bad of past actions and then rectify/reduce the mistakes as we move on.
So old dirt has to be taken out or else there will be too much of new suffocating dusts all over the body.
One should have known the history of Afghanistan and Iraqs. Both are the toughest battle zones in the world.
Few have conquered those regions and have held them for long.
In Iraq region, even the greatest Chengiz Khan could not hold for more than two years.
Now hope you know how the US had to withdraw forces from Iraq!
All these withdrawal operations should be handed over to scare and war mongers like John McCain and their band. They did not even learn from Vietnam.
About Afghanistan, some are coming to know about it these days.
Without consolidating Afghanistan, only idiots like George Bush, Jr and his team could do it.
They did not see much and listen much except what the Suadis, oil companies and their lobbyists dictated.
See the costs of their blunders in all areas.
If one does not learn from the past like John McCains, they tend to involve others in Syria and Iran and run with badges: I served in Vietnam, I did my duty in Iraq and so on!
adam, you actually said it yourself. serving in the armed forces does teach you liberty. it is something you should do for your country (serve it in some fashion), because you respect your freedom, and love your country. I love my country, that doesnt mean i give a hoot about who is sitting in the whitehouse, or what political sham-job you feel you want to place me under, be it repub, or dem. not sure who you think you are voting for, but its the same guy, different face. more loss of freedoms our troops who have a pair, serve our country for to see crybabies that think nothing of anyone but themselves.
tell me this, if you can not support your child for a life changing mood, because of your own fears, or what ever, how can you cast a rational judgement on such a matter as this?
nekatseman...I see that you have no idea about the relationship between Congress and the military. Congress holds the purse strings of the military and you can bet your whatever that the power that military appropriations committes and their individual members have on Capitol Hill is taken very seriously by the Pentagon. It has been they way since before you were born. I have witnessed a US Senator's AIDE dress a few ranking officers down and they took it b/c of $$$. The real world works much differently behind the scenes than Tabloid TV and mouths on AM radio want you to believe.
Ok, so I am no anarchist, but frankly my country is the last priority on my list of concerns. I have pride in the good we do, I have pride in the way my nationality shapes me. I like my country but I don't know if I love it. I am no nationalist and I don't think we are the greatest nation in the world. I view our nation with slight indifference. I have not wrapped myself in a nationalist flag and that's where I am coming from. It has nothing to do with cowardice and fear of lack of appreciation for our nation.
I thank everyone for being mild mannered and reasonable despite the touchiness of this particular topic.
As always, thanks for the inane, fact-free chatter, Jonathan. As Afghanistan and Iraq being difficult to control and rule: The region now known as Afghanistan and Iraq, have been parts of the following empires, whose span of control lasted for centuries:
So, for most of the last 2000 years, both countries have been a part of one empire or another.
Don't you ever get anything right?
Or is this another "Ramadan-style soap opera", by which phrase, I think you mean some fact you cannot understand or are unwilling to accept.
I'm thinking the command failure was more closely related to the inadvisability of sending a soldier with a history of traumatic brain injury back into an area of imminent danger.
do we know what that specific injury was? We send children back on the football field with concussions, which are technically TBI, and tell them to walk it off.
more information, mostly speculation:
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/03/afghan-massacre-tbi/
severity of the injury and possibility of ptsd are open to speculation.
His injury didn't complicate the use of his trigger finger did it!
No but it is possible that the injury did effect his way of thinking. Just imagine yourself in his possition, not taking up for him by no means, but serving for that long is bound to make someone lose touch with reality. Add that on top of his injury, it is very possible that he just lost control of it all. Not saying what he did was right, but i don't think if it was his first or second tour that he would have done that.
Who said anything about traumatic head injury? That's as speculative as all the posters that talked about the Chardon kid having been bullied. I know for a fact that he wasn't. Wouldn't it be a lot easier to wait for facts before spewing out info that has no basis?
headhunter - I don't make this stuff up. Not a root source but it's the best I've got. Hence the disclaimer as to speculation. Any official root source would include access to the sergeant's medical files. Your source?
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/12/us-afghanistan-soldier-brain-idUSBRE82B11D20120312
BS, he killed unarmed civilians, if he does not get the death penalty there will be large retaliations and can you blame them? He has actually put more Americans at risk by his unprovoked behavior. Women and children, really? Read the article, this was not an active duty site but a training and rebuilding one. Beyond a doubt, this was uncalled for behavior. Yes, I am an American.
Teresa -
Yep, he killed unarmed civilians and probably will be punished. Servicemen are generally the ones punished when there's a failure in the chain of command. If you think there are any US military installations, regardless of the unit mission, in Afghanistan that aren't in imminent danger you're uninformed.
What about personal responsibility? "If you do the crime, you do the time"? It was not the chain of command that shot all those innocent people.
The horrors of war are tragic on both sides. If indeed this soldier had a brain injury that was known, on any level, he should have NEVER been sent on another tour of duty. He should have been sent home to heal and recuperate. No telling what horrible things were going on in his injured brain. We do live in a 'pass the buck' society, always thinking that the next person down line will take care of whatever is going on, thus relieving ourselves of any accountability or responsibility, as perhaps was the case of his command.
I really hope they get to the truth of this breakdown in command, as well as get the soldier some help. There is no excuse for what he did, but there sure is a reason as to why he did what he did, and for future health and safety of our troops, it will be important to get this investigated.
My heart goes out to the Afgan's who lost friend and family as a result of this tragic rampage, as well as the family of the brain injured soldier. At this course in time, I also hope our troops can stay as safe as possible as a result of this event.
Teresa - There is no question that the sergeant is responsible for his actions. But the simple truth is that the chain of command failed to protect this soldier or the civilians that he killed. And to answer your unasked question; yes, protecting your soldiers and non-combatants is part of the duty of command.
Not an active duty site? The country of Afghanistan is an active duty site. By the way, what war/conflicts around the world have you been in? Is it his fault? Yes. Are there possible circumstances that may have contributed to this? Probably. Stress is not a one size fits all issue. Here is a thought; everyone act like they are educated and wait for all of the information to come out before you draw all of your conclusions.
It is interesting how we are all making excuses for this man who killed innocents. People are scrambling to find excuses to show how he was not mentally responsible. It has parallels to the texas shooting by another soldier;
Remember this headline: US Army Muslim soldier kills 13 in Texas shooting (Associated Press - Nov 06, 2009). He was labled with everything to show how guilty he was.
This is merely something I have been noticing and wonder if the truth for both is somewhere in the middle, we give these men the means to kill none of the skills to handle it but in the end we are all responsible for our actions.
And just how many Afghani civilians were kidnapped, tortured, and murdered by the Taliban the same night? The night before? The next night?
As I said above, the Afghans are terrified of the Taliban, but not of us.
Everyone needs to understand that with the radicals living in the area, nothing we do is going to change any future behavior/actions of the locals. The idea that if the military tries, convicts, and kills this soldier promptly, that is going to make everything "better" is a very naive position.
In fact they look for reasons to spread hatred and anger, and if it does not exist, they will fabricate and plant evidence to fuel further riots that they seem to live for. I'm not saying this incident was fabricated by the enemy. I'm saying this tactic is taught in terror camps and is generally very effective at making group A more angry with group B.
Chain of Command Failure?? You Think.
My looming question is how did he walk off of a (supposedly) secure firebase un- noticed. What happened to sentry's, corporal of the guard, I will walk my post in a military manner etc etc...
Because if he could get out....the enemy could get in....sooooo WTF.
Chain of Command Failure ??? You bet!
Well you can bet that he didn't go through the wire and you can bet as well that there will be more investigations than just his Article 32.
I get so sick of everyone pointing at the COC as the reason. If the soldier committed suicide than maybe, but remember those higher SGT's and officers are under the same strain as everyone else, yet they aren't picking off civilians. This guy was watching the perimeter where as all his superiors have a lot of other important things going on as well so before you act all high and mighty condemning the officers appointed over him, think first. Until we know all the facts dont be pointing fingers, not everyone can catch everything all the time in an environment such as they operate in. If you have a guy inside the wire or a guy on the ground outside the wire which one do you think takes priority? For those of you that have never served, keep your opinion to the facts and dont speak about stuff you have no idea about. Also, Im no Obama fan, but to pin this on him is just ridiculous. Say it out loud and tell me you don't sound like a loon.
For those of you relating this instance to the MAJ at Ft. Hood, they are totally unrelated. He was motivated by religious fanaticism with a track record of communication with less than savory characters. This SGT was in a combat environment and under what I assume were combat stresses. I say assume because I remember the posts in Iraq as being quite plush with a lot of the comforts of home.
For what he did no, for how he got out through the gate that is a different matter.
What is a commander responsible for?
First, we dont know that both the gate personnel and the tower guards are in the same chain, but for the sake of this discussion, lets say they are. First, an officer is not physically sitting at the gate, let alone the base commander, brigade commander, company commander or even the platoon leader. Most likely it is a Staff Sgt with a handful of Privates and Specialists sitting there controlling traffic in and out of the base. You are correct that him getting out of the wire and no one knowing about it is an issue which will be dealt with accordingly. But to say that this is the commanders fault is a little crazy. While handling this stuff is important, its not rocket science and there are more important things he is doing, exspecially at the company cdr level and above. There are missions to prepare for, intel to go over and a number of other strategic things to worry about. If anyone can be pointed at then i will concede the SGM could get some of the blame, but to say its the commanders fault is just a tactic to shift focus.
The answer of course is everything that his unit does or fails to do and that is not just a tactic. Of course a commander is busy and that is why there are other people under his command with duties delegated to them.
Right now we really know nothing about this place. For example was it big enough that it had a command structure dedicated to keeping it running (if so the mayor and sheriff have some 'splaining to do) or was it so small that there was a CSM or 1SG responsible for perimeter security on top of looking to the unit there?
What kind of proceduers were in place and how well were they checked? Right now another article is saying that an Afghan soldier posted at the gate reported that this guy left.
Ben -
Ever been a military commander? I don't know the particulars of this base, but i can tell you from experience that this soldier's entire chain is currently searching it's collective conscience to figure out what went wrong, if anyone, or group, had enough information to keep it from happening, who should have had enough information to keep it from happening and how far up the chain is going to loose their jobs over this.
Your answer to your own question is technically right, but in reality you cannot expect the top level commander to know EVERY little thing that goes on, its not realistic. I get that he / she can be held accountable, but to say he should be fired, tarred and feathered, or whatever punishment people can think of is because people dont think others can take responsibility for their own actions. Again, perhaps like you said his 1SG, maybe his PLT leader may have seen something, but what rational human thinks a guy is going to go haywire, jump outside the base perimeter and go on a shooting spree? That stuff doesnt happen and for someone to think they should have "known" is crazy! That's like saying the Governor of California should have been held responsible for the Manson murders.
@Brian,
Of course they are looking at what went wrong as well they should, but for anyone to have predicted something like this from a battle tested NCO is lying to themselves. And yes i did command troops and yes i did it in a combat zone, and yes i did it over multiple tours.
That will be determined through the investigation.
Mark my words, this is not a one off thing. Joint Base Louis McChord is attempting to ignore the fact that they have had multiple service members kill civilians in the US, making what happened in Afghanistan just another in a string of failures the command structure at that base need to address! I am hoping someone will finally take a good hard look at the command structure at Joint Base Louis McChord, and see exactly where the failure lies, before someone else gets hurt, either in the ware zone, or in the Seattle/Tacoma area!
@ Brian
Thank you and you are correct, I guess I should have said that earlier. Everyone is ready to point the finger before the facts are known which is where I was going in my first post. If its found out that he said to one of the leaders something in the realm of "I'm going to snap and kill a bunch of Afghani's" than yes, I will agree there was an issue in the command structure. Dont get me wrong, i have seen many a failure by COC's, i just think everyone is quick to point the finger and say it had to be someone's fault and not the person who actually committed the crime.
All we know is he went off the deep end....period.
No doubt there.
Never said that it was realistic, but that won't save anyone's butt either.
Didn't say that either. My original statement was that you can bet that there will be more than one investigation. To that I will add that anyone remotely responsible or accountable is going to get yanked through a knothole during the investigation.
I never said you did, but many of the other posters on this site are. And while you know its not realistic, again, many of the other posters on this site think that the COC have a magic crystal ball to tell them when someone is about to lose it in this extreme fashion. The only instance where I feel there is no excuse is when a soldier commits suicide in a combat zone, but for many of the other instances you cant automatically say "Where was the BN CDR when all this was going down." I am not disputing that fact that someone at a high level is going to get their butt handed to them even though they were 4-5 levels over them, but is it right is the question I am posing. Also, do people understand the difference between who is/are actually responsible and who is getting the blame, I would argue that many people do not.
Okay.
Agreed.
Ben -
I think that's what I was trying to say at 4.8. If you're a drinking man, I owe you one, or a cup of coffee, your choice.
You don't owe me a thing...best job I ever had. I'll still take a drink though.
"Afghan shooter: Chain-of-command failure"
"Not much should be done to the poor soldier caught in the war grinding machines of Saudis, oil companies, lobbyists and their cheap puppets!"
Really Jonathan?? Would you recommend this same lack of punishment for someone living in the US who goes off the wall and massacred YOUR family?? Are there extenuating circumstances that have affected this soldier - obviously! But murder in this manner (or any manner for that matter) cannot be ignored.
I have two family members currently in Afghanistan and pray for their safety everyday. Why don't you go take their place?
Where is Strother Martin when you need him?
"What we've got heah is, failure to c'municate..."
No, what we've got here is a blivet, which is 10 pounds of crap in a 5-pound bag. Congress, Mr. Obama, put your big-boy pants on, and get us the hell out of that miserable country before more American kids get killed, or go wacky and kill more innocent civilians.
I still don't think we have the truth on this, and probably never will. This looks to me, and although I have military service, I'm not an expert, like the act of more than one person. Only the sergeant knows for sure, and I don't think he's talking. Next move is to attempt to excuse his actions by reason of metal incapacity. Aint' lawyers great?
The only way to stop multiple deployments is to reinstate the draft. We have a voluntary military so the dilemma! It appears that as with every other mass shooting now a days, someone else is to blame. Problem with people today is no one accepts responsibility for their own actions. In America we witness this everyday. It's never the shooters fault it's always the parents, or etc, etc....
I spent two tours in Viet Nam so I do understand a little about being deployed.
I have a better idea...STOP the WARS!! Then a draft wont be needed.
@Dan
That would look great on a t-shirt. You could have it designed in Maylasia and produced in China. Then we'll show our good will by going first. We'll dump all our military equipment into the briny deep and show everyone our empty hands. When the fracas is over, you might have to study a new language, just to get a job, assuming you're still around. And that little thing called freedom? Kiss it goodbye.
What's that you say? Ask everybody else to go first? Or at the same time? Sure. Good luck with that.
You are so right, starting with the Apologist in Chief.
There were several soldiers, drinking laughing and helicopters and computer screens according to eye witnesses. As usual the Army is lying through their teeth, and trying to generate sympathy for the poor misunderstood soldier. He will serve no time. Poor thing!
There are two aspects to this. the actual event and the social unrest locally. i am glad the two were not merged in this article.
the actual event, cause threof is very sad for all parties on both sides.
the social unrest is a seperate discussion and we need to keep it that way.
The chain of command sent him and his friends out to kill and they did. Then they decided it was only one deranged soldier who hurt his head in a car wreck. Good story, but it doesn't hold water.
While I feel for the families that were slain, I think it could have been much worse. This man was a trained sniper. Much worse could have been the US losing a Commander in Chief had he lost it in the US, especially when they are taught to shoot from a mile away.
Go back to your video games
What? You don't think that is a valid concern, or simply don't want to accept that possibility?
I don't play video games.
I know you're not a journalist so supposing about the future and hypothesizing about other possible outcomes is totally your right, but to try and assert that these would be remotely possible alternatives is so illogical and fanciful, I am dumbfounded.
As far as journalists go, I haven't been impressed in years. Most of the time I think the average citizen is less biased and can actually spell better.
I was not supposing anything about the future. However, the remote possibility is valid. Some vets are on watch lists. And unless I am mistaken Lee Harvey Oswald was a marksman.
Perhaps it is simply the topic that that is not supposed to be mentioned in public. If that is the case, sorry.
John - Don't confuse Marine shooting range scoring with a video game title of "Marksman". There are 3 levels of qualification, Expert, Sharpshooter and Marksman, Expert, being the best shooters, Marksman being the lowest qualification. Oswald scored Sharpshooter as his initial shooting qualification, he didn't even score Marksman in later qualifying
I didn't. It could be wrong but I found it on wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Harvey_Oswald#Marine_Corps
I really don't understand why people think I get information from video games. I'm 48 and a little old to waste my time with them.
Based on your statement why does it surprise you that people think that you play video games? Perhaps you should start.
Are they not taught to shoot long distances? And the longest shot is over a mile. I believe it was made in Afghanistan by a Canadian.
The longest distance on a qualification shooting range is 500 yards.
http://www.gizmag.com/worlds-longest-sniper-kill-247km/14992/
Sorry, I was wrong. The newest record is over a mile and a half.
At an extreme range like you are talking about luck plays as much a part as anything else. The new record is held by the Brits and it was 3 kills at a distance of over 8,000 feet.
None of the higher command to the Muslim that shot several soldiers on thier own base were punished for not seeing it coming but now MSNBC is blaming this soldier's commanders for his actions. One day if I read anything that happened on Obama's watch that isn't blamed on "someone else" I will be totally shocked. But I don't think I have to worry.
I would be totally shocked if you actually took the time to learned anything of what you speak. If you ever served in the United States Armed Forces, you obviously forgot everything you learned. If you didn't serve...nuff said.
The failure of the Chain of Command goes much deeper than the immediate field command. There are still a lot of facts we don't know, but here are some we do:
The two levels of the Chain of Command that needs investigation are the local field command and the Medical Command at Madigan Army Medical Center. In the last two years they have been investigated twice (IG, 15-6 investigations) and once by a US Army Tiger Team. And yet the most recent situation regarding the "forensic Psychiatric" team is being investigated as I write this. Unless Congress gets directly involved, this will be swept under the rug yet again and the entire responsibility for this tragedy will be directed on the soldier. While intimately he is responsible for his actions, so is his chain of command.
Doc - got a cite for the whole article? Until you wrote this I was just speculating.
Brian - This is the tip of the iceberg...you can search this stuff all day:
roger - I'll do some more research
Sorry Brian, the links disappeared...I guess I'm not enough of a geek! Google "forensic psychiatric team JBLM" ..."JBLM investigations demobilization" ..."MAMC PTSD investigation".
I hop that helps
Thanks.
This one's kind of telling;
http://www.q13fox.com/news/kcpq-army-upholds-ptsd-diagnoses-for-nearly-half-of-14-jblm-soldiers-who-appealed-rejection-20120222,0,1910848.story
They're going to have a hard time hiding this incident.
Brian - Take a look at this:
Google: "Madigan team reversed 285 PTSD diagnoses"
as to hard time hiding this incident...they've successfully done it for years.
I prefer the article from 2/22/2012, a full two weeks before the shootings.
@Ol_Doc: "There are a lot of facts we don't know--" Stop there. The same point at which the bozo who profited off writing this article should have stopped.
Ol_Doc, I've seen that information before and agree it may bear heavily on this tragedy. But even with the alleged failures of JBLM, I'm not convinced that relieves the unit commands of all responsibility.
I don't personally have military service, but my brother is Army active duty, now starting his 5th tour in the Mid-East. From what I understand, rear-duty (domestic) is frequently where soldiers with questionable behavioral, psychological or physical issues are assigned, while the rest of the unit is deployed. My brother told me of personal experiences with this where he had to fight the chain of command to make certain that he was not headed overseas with soldiers having a track record of problems that would only threaten the security of the rest of the unit.
That being the case, it seems even a skewed diagnosis from JBLM doesn't relieve the unit chain of command from its own oversight, testing, evaluation and fitness obligations, especially on the threshold of deployment. Your thoughts?
Cynic, yes I agree we are all operating on possibilities here. I'm just trying to understand how the Army system works. Even those inside sometimes admit struggling trying to explain it. Maybe the investigation will help us all understand, but I'm not holding my breath.
When units come home from a deployment, back to Ft. Lewis they are shuffled through a 2 DAY in processing (not 2 weeks), computerized asking various questions and the soldiers are told NOT to answer that they feel they have any forms of "head sh@t" going on, otherwise they will get kicked out of the Army.
If you felt I'm making excuses for combat chain of command, I obviously left you with the wrong impression. I am simply saying this goes much deeper.
Cynic - yes, we an forget what we DO know and just accept the "official" explanation. Would you like a preview of what that explanation will be? No, let's just wait. I'm sure it will be enough to satisfy you that the Army is extremely concerned with it's personnel and doing everything possible to prevent soldiers from slipping through the cracks. This sort of thing makes you really uncomfortable doesn't it? Don't worry, it will be sanitized and cleaned up for you.
It's always the enlisted that get punished and hardly ever the officers who give them orders and are supposedly responsible for them. Of course the trigger man should be held accountable. If more service members were involved I expect the military will hide the true number and the capacity to which they were involved.
The eye witnesses make liars out of all the US officials.
"Should have seen it coming" is a supposition - you can hold his CoC responsible for his leaving the post, maybe, but leaders are not mind-readers. Sorry, Colonel, you're talking out your a** without supporting facts. It's possible this guy should have been handled differently, but without knowing what behavior was exhibited? A lot of people are saying his prior head trauma may have caused this - head trauma is one of the most common results of IEDS, and we neither can nor should get rid of any soldier who had it. At this point we know so little, that articles like this are pure pontification and hot air.
The article said; "Most murderers have not served in the armed forces, and there are many thousands of American troops who have murdered nobody"
So I ask this, are they referring to fighting Taliban and Al Qaeda as murdering when they are returning fire?
Seriously? Is that a real question? What is it about the sentence you don't understand. They are saying that serving in combat does not make you a murderer. Now, was that difficult?
What (indignantly)? No, they're not referring to fighting Taliban and Al Qaeda as murdering. They're referring to shooting unarmed civilians in their homes as murder.
Are you serious?
Azrancher- Good post, and my thoughts exactly!
Let us keep it simple...........did the man commit murder?? Yes or No. Was he under orders to do so?? Yes or No. No excuses, no spreading it around. This country started downhill when some "expert" decided it was not individual action that made a criminal, but, society's fault. Lt Calley and the boys got away with murder, so there is a precedent. The rest of you want to make excuses for this Sgt. POS, go right on, but, count me out of it. I despise a bunch of ragheads, but, that is not an excuse to murder anyone, or, to condone any such acts.
The ONLY reason to "blame Bush" would be if Bush Administration policy was significantly tilted toward foreign intervention and "nation building"...which would have started us down the road where we find ourselves today. I can specifically remember George W. Bush looking the nation in the eye and saying "We will not be engaged in nation-building in the Middle East." HAH! Another one of the big-lie techniques of the NeoConservatives, who never met a war they did not like.
So yes. Blame Bush. And blame the Obama Adminstration for trying to delicately extricate the U.S. from Afghanistan. Nothing at all delicate about being where you should not be, wasting lives and treasure in a country that has confounded every Western nation that tried to do good--or bad--there.
We should have never gone. We should not now stay. Get out. Get out. Get out. Now.
Yes, a failure of the chain of command. How far does that reach? His platoon sergeant? Company or Battalion Commander? Theater Commander? Commander in Chief? Does it reach back to his boss...namely us? To each of us who spew our political views, and heat of the moment outrage over a broken and unjust system, only to change over to the entertainment section a minute late to see the latest gossip, and hopefully distract us from the unpleasant thoughts of the day. Did we do something to change what is wrong? Do we pass the blame, or easily pass judgement on the truly guilty from the comfort of our cubicle in two minutes or less? None of us could have any culpability here could we?
Let's examine the murdering Staff Sergeant for a minute. I don't know this person. I can guess that he volunteered for a multitude of reasons: Following in the footsteps of his dad, big brother, best friend...; the right thing to do; to impress his sweetheart; pay for college; get out of the inner city, small town, bad situation.....; to serve his country, ego, or himself. Maybe he thought it would be fun or glorious as it is potrayed in the movies. Maybe he just needed a job to feed his kids.
Did he know what he would truly experience, or how it might afffect and ultimately change him? Was he a murdering psychopath to begin with? I doubt it. Did he know that after a while his convictions, principles, and sense of right and wrong might change? I think he might of envisioned himself being the steeleyed operator of death portrayed on t.v. that mows down the enemy one minute, and follows it up with instant normalcy never giving it a second thought, that visions of the waving stars and stripes would be all the comfort and justification he would need.
Why didn't he share with his chain of command that his head kept hurting, that he didn't feel just right and mission ready? Why wasn't it easy to just tell his peers and mentors that he wasn't well, and that maybe he should stay behind on this deployment? Wouldn't they, his friends and brothers been understanding and accepting, having shared his experiences and pain? Or would they have instantly shunned him for showing weakness? Did he know that his admission of being a broken soldier would lead to instant suspiscion and being ostercized? No longer would he be able to protect his brothers. No longer would he share in the adrenaline fueled after excitement of the close call. He would no longer be part of the family, the only support structure he truly cared about. The only comfort and sense of normalcy would be stripped away immediately, to keep the broken soldier disease from spreading amongst the command.
Did the mudering psycho ever think that experiencing the depraved excitement of killing human beings might become normal? That it might even feel good? We're not supposed to feel that way, right? Is it o.k. to feel good that you shot the bad guy before he got you or one of your brothers? Aftter a while he might have even stopped missing his wife and kids so much, the pain of seperation diminishes, along with the love letters and phone calls home, because his reality was there, with his real family, his brothers, caring for their needs and wants. Would experiencing pain, suffering and inhumanity so far outside the normal human experience change him so much?
At least this guy would be comforted that the folks back home knew the pain that he must be suffering, and they would support him no matter what. They would never second guess his split second life or death decisions, because of the hard things they had asked him to do. If he fell way down and shattered his illusions of all that he thought remained of his former self, the people back home would know to look through it, and pity him for having succumed to human weakness. They would at least do that right? At least in the thirty seconds or so that it took to judge him, before clicking over to the sports page.
I pray for the sprits of all humans involved. Let them find peace.
Thank you. Well said.
The horror of the incident/murder is of such magnitude that all civilized people are taken aback and ashamed that a man in an American uniform could do so ghastly a deed. Other people can comment more insightfully than I about causation, but I have heartfelt sympathies for the innocents who were killed, their families, and their community. That said, Col. Jack Jacobs, author of this article, is quite erudite with the written word. He has excellent writing skills that clearly express excellent points. His writing is in striking contrast to most professional journalists' expository writing. Well done, sir.
If his head was messed up after his last head injury in 2010 then he may not know how to seek help. You may think that is impossible because your current state of mind is sound, but that is why you have other people who are healthier than you to care for you when you are sick. Even without brain injury I know when I was having a fever I cannot think anything straight, much less care about myself enough even just to seek help from others. If the culture of the military is discouraging the individual from seeking discharge due to such reasons (very likely, as an environment of such can be disruptive to operations not to mention costlier) then the system simply exacerbates the situation that will lead to such scenarios. It is inevitable, but the leader must now realize the cost of ignoring the mental health and trying to save money on the rehab is now a proven catastrophic mayhem. So try to save money again next time and realize this is where you will end up. If anything the soldier did an awesome job of showing them so called leaders "on your face" what they deservedly get for their decisions in the past they deemed was right and necessary. Eat that general!
He had a HEAD INJURY! What else are we going to find out! Is that why RAMBO wears a bandanna! Headin out to kill the enemy! Howbout CRUEX for that ITCHY trigger finger! Then a good SWIG OF SNAPPLE!