You're risking your life being anywhere near a courthouse these days

I would say just leaving your gated community, but some neighborhood watch commander shot and killed an unarmed kid visiting his aunt in one.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ORLANDO, Florida (Reuters) - The family of a 17-year-old African-American boy shot to death last month in his gated Florida community by a white Neighborhood Watch captain wants to see the captain arrested, the family's lawyer said on Wednesday.

Trayvon Martin was shot dead after he took a break from watching NBA All-Star game television coverage to walk 10 minutes to a convenience store to buy snacks including Skittles candy requested by his 13-year-old brother, Chad, the family's lawyer Ben Crump said.

"He was a good kid," Crump said in an interview, adding that the family would issue a call for the Watch captain's arrest at a news conference on Thursday. "On his way home, a Neighborhood Watch loose cannon shot and killed him."

Trayvon, who lived in Miami with his mother, had been visiting his father and stepmother in a gated townhome community called The Retreat at Twin Lakes in Sanford, 20 miles north of Orlando.

As Trayvon returned to the townhome, Sanford police received a 911 call reporting a suspicious person.

Although names are blacked out on the police report, Crump and media reports at the time of the shooting identified the caller as George Zimmerman who is listed in the community's newsletter as the Neighborhood Watch captain.

Without waiting for police to arrive, Crump said, Zimmerman confronted Trayvon, who was on the sidewalk near his home. By the time police got there, Trayvon was dead of a single gunshot to the chest.

"What do the police find in his pocket? Skittles," Crump said. "A can of Arizona ice tea in his jacket pocket and Skittles in his front pocket for his brother Chad."

Indeed. My preliminary guess, based upon no actual evidence, is that the parties involved were on opposite sides of a custody dispute. We shall see.

Neighborhood Watch carries firearms? Wow!

I live in Central Florida,this guy shot an unarmed teen after calling the police dispatch who told him to stay away from the kid and wait for the cops .They have'nt charged him or arrested him.If that were my kid I'd be in jail for shooting the ass that killed my kid

The "Neighborhood Watch" guy was a wanna-be cop with an assult record on a Police Officer. Another idiot shot and killed a Deputy Sherriff during a traffic stop in FL. He and his white-trash girlfriend both had long rap sheets. Here's a novel idea, lock up the criminals....

We need to regulate courthouses. They're dangerous! Perhaps courthouse control... or child locks on courthouse doors... or perhaps we can fence them off at the next block and screen pedestrians and vehicles at those checkpoints!

Bring on the NRA shills that will tell us that the more guns that society has, the safer we are. It's a blatant lie.

So you're going to take the intellectual high road and insinuate that murders wouldn't take place if we didn't have guns in society?

all complete idiots!! do you actually believe the #@%* ya'll say.

Where do disgruntled postal workers go? To the courthouse of course.

Guns keeping us all safer...or something like that.

The Courts have become ridiculous, I was charged with being a pimp in california, which I am not! I made a joke in a text and I went to prison because the woman on the other end wanted revenge. Wait till it happens to you, I can see why so many people are shooting up courthouses. Theres nothing worse than being innocent and being charged with a crime. I'd rather be a victim of a criminal than a victim of the courts. being robbed by a criminal usual won't cost you more than a few hundred to a few thousand. Going to court will cost you tens of thousands. Yeah, some will say its my fault, a little of it is, but for what I said, I see people every day say things worse than me and all of you probably have, theres much less freedom today, watch what you say.

YIPPEE! Guns for everyone. Here in Arizona we're gonna get to carry our substitute peckers right smack into the courthouse. AND, no carry permit required. Jurors are gonna look sympathetic or else. That goes for judges too. By gum. We're solidly protected against life-threatening sentences. It's our constitutional right. By gum again.

Yeah, some will say its my fault, a little of it is, but for what I said, I see people every day say things worse than me and all of you probably have, theres much less freedom today, watch what you say.

Reminds me of an old joke:

• A police officer has a "speeder" pulled over and is writing out the ticket.
• speeder. Officer why did you pull me over? Look at all those other speeders going faster than I was.
• Officer. Do you fish?
• speeder. Yes I do.
• Officer. Do you catch all the fish in the lake?...........

You live by the gun, you die by the gun.

Stonedog, here's the problem with that argument (in a theoretical, intellectual sense, so I'm sure you will call is nonsense): What exactly did the gun save you from? If it was someone else with a gun, then surely even you can see that a gun was still the problem. (And if it was not someone else with a gun, then there is every possibility in the world that there would have been another way out of it and your gun was simply expedient). Do I have a proposed solution? No. Gun advocates have already guaranteed that our streets are flooded with guns and crawling with well armed bad guys. There's no undoing that. But "guns" are still the problem, whether gun lovers want to acknowledge that or not, there's just nothing that can be done about it now. Thanks to the gun makers for making this world such a friendly, safe place.

I don't conceal and carry. But I will defend your right to do so.

There is nothing wrong with exercising your right to bear arms. But a mentally challenged person carrying one?

If anything, this is proof positive that gun regulations are neccessary.

@ Stonedog34:

Keep laughing. We anti-gunners won't stop until every firearm has been confiscated and destroyed by governmental decree.

trust verify, the point is I wasn't speeding, it just looked like it, but there was no proof more than a joke. hence why i spent 15,000 dollars and wasn't convicted.

But being innocent and deprived of 15,000 dollars for my defense, because I could afford a lawyer means I'm still a victim of the justice system, and had the potential for being one of the 8 to 12 percent of innocent people in prisons according to the justice department. Thanks to people like you that don't understand the situation.

Pro or Con gun - this is NOT a lie. The Japanese did not invade the west coast of the United States at the beginning if WW-II because their military Generals said there would be an American behind every blade of grass with a gun and they would never get off the beach.

Everyone so far on this page, seemed to have lost sight of what the article was about!! It said and elderly lady was shot and at least 2 others had to be taken to the hospital with several gunshot wounds, shots were fired in the county clerk's basement, at a bus station and outside of the court house!! I guess the guy was hoping that the police would shoot him since he was supposed to be there to face charges of sexually assaulting his own daughter who is mentally handicapped.

Brian, it seems as if you left out a good portion of your own story like---how did it come about that you were "joking" and then suddenly were arrested for being a "pimp", there's a gap but please don't feel the need to fill in the blanks. Thanks And Vet, what the hell are you talking about??

for the bad guy's...all i can say... is say hello to my little friend...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVQ8byG2mY8

Trust Verify. My other point, This gunman was probably innocent until he started shooting. He was probably an innocent man falsely accused with a justice system that is nothing more than a rabid beast that runs over anything that it comes across, innocent or guilty. Sadly cops are so full of themselves and think they are protecting society when they are victimizing much of it.

@Shandril,

Keep laughing. We anti-gunners won't stop until every firearm has been confiscated and destroyed by governmental decree.

And how do you see the logical enforcement of said governmental decree occurring?

Just wondering.....

Funny that all the anti-gun nutz are out today over this story. Not because it's tragic, but because they want to push their ideals on the rest of us. Did anyone of you anti-gun nutz read the story? The shooter was being charged with a crime. So what does that mean, it means you can yell all you want about banning guns, and he wouldn't have gave a rats arse what you said. But then again, arguing with anti-gun nutz is like arguing with a retarded person, I will always lose. Now if you arn't so niave about things, and advocate responsible gun ownership, we have a discussion.

saddened your 'intellectual argument' IS nonsense.

You see, the handgun put a stop to nine guys with knives and baseball bats who had cornered/ surrounded me at were intent on killing me. There was no 'other way out of it', as they had a car and I was on foot. I wasn't going to outrun them.

So, are we going to outlaw baseball bats and knives, too?

Shandril, that'll NEVER HAPPEN. Keep dreaming! :D

Ken, you make no sense...I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

Saddened- When my grandfather's girlfriend's house was getting broken into, and she shoved a gun in their face, they left. Is there any evidence that it for a fact saved her life? No. We don't know what he was planning to do. But I'm betting on it. No robber is going to be afraid of an old lady with a bat. He will be afraid of one with a .22 though.

@ Stonedog34:

Keep laughing. We anti-gunners won't stop until every firearm has been confiscated and destroyed by governmental decree.

What will you crusade against if and when all fire arms are all confiscated by the government and there continues to be a huge influx of violent crimes in our society?

As a gun owner, even I can get behind certain laws that limit specific types of firearms, but bundling firearms into an 'everything' policy is really naive and will simply never happen. That's why people like you never accomplish anything, you're too broad and lack the focus that's needed to actually create change.

Saddened:

Yes - inanimate objects are ALWAYS the problem; it's NEVER the people holding those inanimate objects. Really? You believe this? To bad your little utopia doesn't exist - and would never exist - regardless of gun makers. It's the basics of human nature.

And what an a** you are to tell a person who has been the victim of a crime what the "high" road is - and how their gun was part of the problem. Did you even think of putting yourself in a life threatening situation? Can you even conceive of it? Probably not. I can't believe you actually said your argument was "intellectual" - hardly - specifically speaking to the line "[A]nd if it was not someone else with a gun, then there is every possibility in the world that there would have been another way out of it." Go visit a prison - hang with the criminals - and tell me you would have this same rosy attitude.

Also, this article doesn't mention it, but the houston MSNBC article states:

"The shooter shot and ran over his daughter," said Carol Riley with the Beaumont Police Department"

Killing the witness?

LOL

Do Cons think handguns are for hunting? Dont even try to argue with me on this either. When I didn't get shot by a handgun when I went to the courthouse my life was never in danger by a handgun. I want you to hand your gun over before you hand it over to a 3 year old baby.

People like Stoned dog34you make me want to puke. Just what we need. Stoned dogs walking around, high and armed. You disgust me.

Sono,

murders would still take place but they would not be committed by flipping idiots who have no right to be owning these weapons. Like the guy in Florida, the "cop" that left his gun in his car, the boy friend who left his loaded pistol in the car with two kids, the parents of the teen from Ohio, the parents of the elementary school kid from a few weeks ago, and the list goes on. These are only from THIS year, the past two and a half months.

Just because you have a right to own a gun does not mean that right cannot be taken away from you if you prove incapable of owning a weapon responsibly. Anyone incapable of passing basic gun safety courses held are regular intervals should be stripped of their license and their weapons.

Time to end the NRA "if everyone owns a gun everyone will be safer" propaganda. The more people have guns the more people who are not responsible in their use own them and the more these kinds of tragedies happen because of bigots clinging to stereotypes, people who are not mentally capable of own a gun use them to kill others, and general chaos ensues when disasters strike and the "I building a bunker" people start "protecting" what's theirs.

I have never and will probably never own a gun, they are not a necessary part of life and frankly I think that unless you have had years of training no one is capable of responsibly using a gun because without that training you do not understand the weight of the responsibility of the piece of cold steel you hold in your hands. I see cases of this every 4th of July when stupid jackasses fire rounds off into the air. Every shot should count as negligent attempted homicide because when they come down that have a small chance of killing someone. If you do not understand the physics behind how a gun works you should also not be able to own a gun, if you cannot understand that by firing a gun at any place other than a shooting range or in desolate areas you are endangering lives then you should not be able to own a gun.

If you are a responsible gun owner then you have nothing to worry about, you should actually be all for getting the guns out of the hands of those that endanger everyone around them because that is what responsible gun ownership is about, in part.

WilliamOfRites

You're risking your life being anywhere near a courthouse these days

I would say just leaving your gated community, but some neighborhood watch commander shot and killed an unarmed kid visiting his aunt in one.

As if everyone lives in a gated community.

crymeariver313The "Neighborhood Watch" guy was a wanna-be cop with an assult record on a Police Officer.

I haven't heard this part of the story before so after a search it's true but the charges were dropped without an explanation. I believe that law enforcement officer screwed up.

http://www.thefloridanewsjournal.com/2012/03/09/sanford-crime-watch-captain-george-zimmerman-did-have-previous-arrest-record-2005-battery

Geowil

Just because you have a right to own a gun does not mean that right cannot be taken away from you if you prove incapable of owning a weapon responsibly. Anyone incapable of passing basic gun safety courses held are regular intervals should be stripped of their license and their weapons.

I think that would be great b/c there are way too many idiots who own all kinds of firearms and I would add that 'proper firearm storage' also be a mandatory factor along with any kind of psychological or mental profile that's taken into account. It should be such that if you buy ANY kind of gun, you also have to buy or show proof of ownership of an appropriate storage unit if you want to maintain the firearm. I know people who 'hide' their firearms vs a heavy 'safe' like container and it's just mind boggling as to how many things can go wrong with that kind of setup.

As far as general safety goes, I can't even count how many times i've seen someone at the range almost kill themselves or the person they're shooting with b/c they have very little experience and almost no idea what they're doing.

Sono said:

So you're going to take the intellectual high road and insinuate that murders wouldn't take place if we didn't have guns in society?

Japan has very strict gun control--even the cops don't carry guns, and they have a very low crime rate.

Those who beat their guns into plowshares will plow for those who don't.

Just see my comment on the last shooting..

If Uncle Sam wants to "take away your guns," Yosemite Sam wants more people like this person.

Don't listen to Yosemite Sam.

Less guns. Less gun violence.

Have a gun free day.

CHAD-4089873

'all complete idiots!! do you actually believe the #@%* ya'll say. Post 1.10"

[cue wide-eyed innocence]

But what if the idiots are missing a few parts?

[end wide-eyed innocence]

Never mind the Kony 2012 propaganda, by the smiley faced,demonic and greedy MISSIONARIES ( MISSION ARIES : Mission or War ) and their quest for cheap African resources. The chant is -

GEORGE ZIMMERMAN 2012 !!!

When the NRA begins to understand that gun responsibility is at least half as important as gun rights we have a chance to make some progress toward rational gun legislation in this country.

there is a whole lot more to the story - - for sure .

Everything's bigger in Texas.

Regardless of what side you are on in the Gun/No Gun debate, there is no denying that the comment by Nervous Wreck was completely awesome.

Guns don't kill people, its just the sound they make..

The 2nd amendment does NOT apply to every day citizens. The 2nd amendment was written when ONLY those in Militias were allowed to posses weapons. Not every citizen. If you read it, you'll understand it.

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed...

The rights of only THOSE individuals who are in Militias are the ones allowed weapons. Prove me wrong, but thats what it says!

sono

'proper firearm storage' also be a mandatory factor along with any kind of psychological or mental profile that's taken into account. It should be such that if you buy ANY kind of gun, you also have to buy or show proof of ownership of an appropriate storage unit if you want to maintain the firearm.

Most new guns come with a lock that prevents loading until removed. Much like the lock on a bicycle. Perfect, no. Reasonable, yes.

We don't mandate psych tests or mental profiling for anything else except entry into certain jobs, like retail sales and police type jobs. Perhaps you are asking for "Minority Report" precognition? Good luck on that one. We already have mental capacity restrictions on gun purchases and ownership. We also have requirements that DUI drivers install BAC test units for starting their vehicles, we know how well those work.

Neither mental testing nor locks will keep someone who is determined to do harm from doing that harm. Locks keep honest people honest. There are not enough tea readers in the world to predict who will go off and when.

When you are accused of molesting your mentally handicapped daughter leaving court, grabbing your gun, shooting people and taking hostages REALLY doesn't help your case or plead of not guilty. Sounds like he was going for suicide by cop. Why they don't have the stones to just eat the barrel is beyond me.

Yup, here we go again with all the liberals who want to ban guns. How about we ban idiots?? I'm sure the world would be alot safer and there would be no problems. Makes about as much sense as banning guns..................... And to 420 Frees: Ya better read the constitution again, we certainly do have the individual RIGHT to keep and bear arms regardless of what you "feel good" liberals think.

The rights of only THOSE individuals who are in Militias are the ones allowed weapons. Prove me wrong, but thats what it says!

The 2nd amendment does NOT apply to every day citizens.

The supreme court disagrees with you. They see it to read the right of the people. Further many states spell it out in their constitutions to read the people as well.

Please define militia in your words. the dictionary shows:

mi·li·tia/məˈliSHə/
Noun:

A military force of civilians to supplement a regular army in an emergency.
A military force that engages in rebel activities.

civilians = people

rebel = A person who rises in armed resistance against an established government or ruler.

richardharrow you have some proof to back up your outrageous assertions, or are you just another punk bitch who likes to make things up and tell lies about people you don't know?

Yeah, that's what I thought. A punk ass bitch, and a liar. Thanks for telling lies so that I can now call you a liar openly and publicly, so that everybody can call you a liar with the proof being right here in front of us.

richardharrow, professional liar. :D

And no, I won't give up my guns. LOL

How did this guy get so many shots off and kill 2 people? I figured all the people in Texas had guns and would have shot him after his first gunshot. Guess not. Oh well.

No. It applies to all citizens.

Like me. I am legally carrying a concealed handgun as we type......... That darned Constitution!

Not your cup of tea? That's perfectly fine. I have no problem with that; be as unarmed as you desire.

BUT! Stay away from my firearms, keep your nose out of my business, your paws off of my guaranteed rights, and we will get along much better.

Thank you!

kahrcarrier............................amen!!

That's right GA Girl. I am protected under the Constitution. Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness under the Bill of Rights.

GA Girl-718836

Gun control anyone? Oh yeah I forgot that stuff is off limits....nevermind.......carry on shooters! It's protected under the constitution! Post 1.15

[sigh] So the Constitution's just a piece of paper? Fine with me, you ladies can go back to the way it was when the Constitution was first written. The term 'men' meant 'no female need apply'. No vote for the ladies and marriage can go back to; "I now pronounce you owner and property". Then there's no abortion to save the life of the womb bearer. After all, women aren't worth much as the story of Job demonstrates. Female property are easily replaced; quite often with a younger model. Families aren't important as they can be replaced, too.

During WW2 Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto of the Japanese Imperial Navy told his superiors the USA could not be taken. Reason? Almost everyone had firearms and would use them in defence of the country. Without firearms; bows, slings, spears, and farming implements would have made things much more difficult for defenders. After Pearl Harbor he's reported to have said; "We have awakened a sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve". That's what the Japanese government did.

In the 1920's and 30's, as I recall, Government Men (G men) weren't allowed firearms. The directives made them sitting targets for anyone with a firearm.

A response depends on the particular situation and what tool(s), and other option(s), are available. If a particular person doesn't like firearms then don't get one. A firearm is a tool just like anything else. I prefer the option to have one around. The option changes things from a binary status to trinary. The ambiguity factor can be a heavy deterrent.

420

You should read the SCOTUS Heller decision.

Held:
1. The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a
firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for
traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home.
(a) The Amendment’s prefatory clause announces a purpose, but does not limit or expand the scope of the second part, the operative clause. The operative clause’s text and history demonstrate that it
connotes an individual right to keep and bear arms.
(b) The prefatory clause comports with the Court’s interpretation of the operative clause. The “militia” comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. The Antifederalists feared that the Federal Government would disarm the people in
order to disable this citizens’ militia, enabling a politicized standing army or a select militia to rule. The response was to deny Congress power to abridge the ancient right of individuals to keep and bear
arms, so that the ideal of a citizens’ militia would be preserved.

http://www.scotusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/07-290.pdf

Here is an article on the Second Amendment you would find interesting,if you have the intigrety to read a different opinion.

The Second Amendment to the United States Constitution states: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." The reference to a "well regulated" militia, probably conjures up a connotation at odds with the meaning intended by the Framers. In today's English, the term "well regulated" probably implies heavy and intense government regulation. However, that conclusion is erroneous.

The words "well regulated" had a far different meaning at the time the Second Amendment was drafted. In the context of the Constitution's provisions for Congressional power over certain aspects of the militia, and in the context of the Framers' definition of "militia," government regulation was not the intended meaning. Rather, the term meant only what it says, that the necessary militia be well regulated, but not by the national government.

http://www.lectlaw.com/files/gun01.htm

What the hell is wrong with America? Stories of public shootings with multiple victims seems to becoming a regular occurrence in the news lately. Isn't anyone able to solve their problems with words anymore or is the first reaction to go grab a gun? If people need to commit violence then they should only do it upon themselves if they must. Completely senseless.

richardharrow, yes, I hunt with a handgun.

Are you so scared of handguns that you don't even know that some calibers are legal to hunt with?

usa1967

You are misrepresenting those who oppose you. Most of us do not want to ban weapons. We want to ensure that those who do own weapons act responsibly.

Ban handguns.

Charle in 1.42

That would not work here in America because the Japanese have a much different culture then we do here in America, extremely different even to a point of being more civilized then we are. We are kind of like the Wild West when compared to Japan.

Seems to be getting very commonplace these days. Not surprising considering the level of discontent which is steadily growing in the US. When our elected leaders endeavor to divide the nation this is what it leads to. According to "Rules for Radicals" you have to first tear it down in order to rebuild it to fit your vision. The demolition is going well! Country angry and more divided than any time since the sixties. Push or pull hard enough and the lunatic fringe of either side will be the first to fall.

This is just a tug-of-war across a bottomless pit of debt. Either side pulls to hard and the other has to pull back to keep from being drug into the abyss. If one side just lets go, the other side all falls on their collective asses smashing the poor guy at the end of the rope. That pisses off the ones at the end of their rope!

I don't know how we can fix this with the current powers that be. We can vote for real change but I don't see anybody credible running. The last guy that promised change got us where we are now! My suggestion while we try to figure this out is "don't piss off the guy who's at the end of his rope". Even the meek and downtrodden fight back when they're backed into a corner and have nothing left to lose.

And the only thing I feel sure of...is that it will get a lot worse before it gets any better.

The problem isn't the criminal justice system. We have the largest % of our population incarcerated. It's the "kill to settle a score" mindset instilled and fortified by the NRA and their bed fellows, the weapons manufacturers.

Beaumont is still part of Texas which still has the death penalty. Although it will be endless appeals before application, I'd suspect that lifetime incarceration won't be terminated by this guy walking out someday, but rather via needle.

So what if the shooter goes to jail. The deed is already done.

@sandtrich please tell me where you have read that the NRA promotes killing people? who has the score to settle? the criminal? the victim?

santrich.......... are you illiterate or just palin stupid? You obviously have no idea what the NRA is about and before you shoot your mouth off how about you join the NRA and find out what it really is about. They help folks understand the proper use of firearms, firearm safety, enjoying target shooting and hunting. They do provide self defense info and classes but also teach using a gun for slef-defense is a last resort.

Tell me are you a crack head or employed by MSNBC?

sandtrich

The problem isn't the criminal justice system. We have the largest % of our population incarcerated. It's the "kill to settle a score" mindset instilled and fortified by the NRA and their bed fellows, the weapons manufacturers.

You really think the NRA educates bullies and the likes that instill all the hard feelings in our youth who grow up to malcontents? I've got some beachfront property in Mexico for you if you believe what you stated. Let us guess, you are one of the bullies that worries that the one you are harassing just might get out an equalizer as you try to beat them with your fists or bat.

and the NRA battles and attempts to defeat ANY rules or laws that would moderate the availability of firearms designed to do nothing but kill people.

You neglected mentioning that the NRA also opposes every sensible restriction on firearms ownership including automatic tactical weapons. The big hunting and target shooting excuse is, in reality, a smokescreen to deflect criticism of any type about gun control -- (not gun elimination) which seems to terrify all the crazies who live in the delusion that guns solve problems. Many of us support the right to bear arms. (I own a gun). What we have issues with is the glorification of firepower and the "wild-west" mentality that the NRA's intransigence reflects. When I reached a sufficient level of maturity, I gave up my membership. I was fourteen at the time.

Yeah, go to jail where you get access to a library, a paying job, tv time, relaxation time, free time, etc. If prison was actually bad, it would work. But when you can throw an entire gang behind bars for 3 years where they can play basketball or watch tv all day, you do absolutely nothing in regards to curbing that criminal behavior. Why in the world is prison a fun place to be?

Instead of attacking the NRA and gun owners, why don't you ant-gun nutz reach out and reform the mentally unstable, criminals, thugs, rapist, hate groups, and sociotpaths, educate them on gun resposnibilities, being a law abiding citizen, good morals and/or get them off of drugs. Then come back in 10 years time, and give hard statistics that all crime has been elliminated. If you can do this I will give up all my guns, and even give up hunting with a gun. Hows that for a wager. But I bet non of you fools won't do it, and only run your mouths.

That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard "Punisher"

Agreed, Sean. As to the part about prisoner's getting paid to be there, at $.25/hour I'm so sure prisoners are watchin' their money pile up. Now, as to the article, heartfelt sympathies to everyone concerned. Courts are already firey powder kegs where people's lives and lifestyles are on the chopping block. I cannot for the life of me understand why any state (Arizona) would legalize guns inside courthouses and/or courts. The only people who should be armed inside a court are the officers sworn to uphold the law and keep the peace. Even then with all human frailty considered, stuff happens. Yet, with all of the budget shortfalls, many cities/counties can't afford to fully staff and protect the courthouses. Meanwhile, our society is rapidly eroding in plain sight and at an alarming fast pace. I agree with another comment above. . .it's only going to get worse, much worse. Thank God for His promise that one fine day at His appointed time, we will beat our weapons into ploughshares. That's the better part.

sandtrich:

"It's the "kill to settle a score" mindset instilled and fortified by the NRA and their bed fellows, the weapons manufacturers."

Adolescent claptrap! A troll's post! You have demeaned yourself for a vote. And I "lose" because I responded to your ignorance.

Any rightfully so. "Helps to get rid of the bad blood."

I think it's time we start going to the mat on issues in this country and not just with the Federal Government either. Americans have been pretty tolerant of liberal beliefs over the past hundred years or so and you can only take so much and push so far before you snap.

I'm pretty sure England called our Forefathers Radical Liberals.

"A judge told KBMT TV that the suspect is a man facing charges of having sexually assaulted his young daughter, who reportedly is mentally handicapped."

Bman, I'd say you're connecting some dots that aren't there. Dang liberals and their opposition to forced incest of the mentally handicapped!

Really? There are liberal beliefs in Texas?

Are all of your Confused...as a matter of fact, yes, there are liberal beliefs in Texas. Contrary to what you believe, not EVERYONE in a state has the same set of beliefs. Hard to get that, I understand. But sometimes, your prejudices and bigotry gets the better of ya.

You are right Ken Wolf. Why else would it be a red state?

It is all relative, Eric. . . What is considered liberal in Texas is likely considered moderate in California and Massachusetts.

I have actually been following politics in other states very closely over the last year and based on the legislation that has been passed in Texas in the last couple of year and the battle over what should be in textbooks in public schools, whatever liberal voices exist in Texas, they have been silenced.

Oh, I love ignorant people. Monday, Obama was in Houston. He raised over 2 millions dollars for his campaign here...One fundraiser was $500 a person, and the other was $37000 a person for dinner. I'm not sure how many went to the first, but over 70 went to the second. So, yes, there are liberal beliefs in Texas.

Ken Wulf/Lone Wolf - there clearly must be something incestuous going on in your families .... close "names" ... same idiotic comments ... enough evidence in my opinion.

Are all of you Confused? No but clearly you are [confused]. There are liberal beliefs in Texas. You do know Houston has the only openly gay mayor in the country, right? Not to mention that the election results from the major cities here lean democratic, but it doesn't take away the rest of the state - mainly rural, which tends to be conservative. You also realize that blanket statements make you look like a pea brain right? In the end - it seems your research wasn't very thorough or correct.

I apologize Texas. There are liberals in Texas. . .

Whitley, one correction. . . Houston does not have the only openly gay mayor in the country. There are a couple of openly gay mayors in California, including the mayor of Redondo Beach.

My apologies for my incorrect statement - Houston wasn't the first, but the largest ... and is predominantly democratic.

Bman: ....."Americans have been pretty tolerant of liberal beliefs over the past hundred years or so and you can only take so much and push so far before you snap"....

You see? This is the problem with conservatives.

Allowing gay people who love each other to marry

Ensuring that the elderly and the poor have a safety net

Instituting a public education system...

These are but three "liberal beliefs" that really won't affect you at all.

You can stay married to your wife.

You're "self-reliant" so you can reject the public safety net and pay cash for your own.

You can home school.

Apparently, "taking so much," to conservatives, means BEING FAIR TO NON CONSERVATIVES.

Why? Because their whole "belief system" is based on hatred and punishment towards those they don't understand or like. Plain and simple.

I'll see you on the next thread, Bman, where I'm sure you'll be blaming the next shooting on "lefty-liberals."

Have a nice day.

@shut yer yap - I never once brought up homo marriage with liberal beliefs you did. Everyone knows that's a mental disorder and not a liberal belief anyway.

Tell you what... you start paying your own way in this country and the rest of us will start taking you seriously.

FYI We do outnumber you .. 75% of this country is not Liberal. Should we ever decide to eradicate your way of life... you would be gone in less than 60 seconds and not missed. Liberalism is the downfall of this nation as it encourages welfare and reliance on the Government. It's slavery all over again and your not even a slave owner this time around.

In fact had Liberals been around in the founding years of America we would still be under England's control. England shared the same principles TAX and TAX and TAX and BIG Government. Our founding fathers were libertarians first and foremost.. Knock off your bullsh*t... you people want to live your own lives freely from persecution? Than start paying your own way. You people aren't even seated at the grownup table and your always talking sh*t.. Wipe you out!!!

http://www.gallup.com/poll/141032/2010-conservatives-outnumber-moderates-liberals.aspx

http://www.gallup.com/poll/152021/conservatives-remain-largest-ideological-group.aspx

If it was a hispanic or illegal alien gardener for a liberal you can bet MSNBC will not announce it on the hompage of MSN.

Oh Cliff, we all know only conservatives hire illegal alien gardners so they don't have to pay them any benefits or provide them healthcare. Fiscal conservative = ideological cheapskate

chefaz...so glad you were here to demand more information. I am sure that the news agencies were sitting on tons of information on an event that JUST HAPPENED until someone asked for it.

Cliff...Why bring up something like that which has nothing to do with the article or the event? Sort of de-legitimizes actual concerns and issues with a subject when you bring it up in random places.

Ciewywt...yeah, you must be right. I mean, everyone can be painted with broad brush strokes, with no basis in actual facts, correct? Your statement was closed-minded, bigoted and pandering to stereotypes. Can we all get away with doing that now, or just your side?

Cliff Chandler: ..."If it was a hispanic or illegal alien gardener for a liberal you can bet MSNBC will not announce it on the hompage of MSN"...

Yeah, Misshandler, I mean Cliff Chandler.

And you can bet that The Weather Channel won't report that God took a tinkle on San Fransisco because of gay people, either.

They actually allow you guys to vote?

Sheesh.

Have a nice day.

The Revolution has begun. More and more people are unhappy, maybe not in this case but look around the country. See, watch.

Now imagine that those guns had guns so they could shoot the other guns before the other guns could shoot them! More guns = perfect world!

Just imagine if those shot had a gun and could shoot back

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

An elderly woman was killed and at least three others were shot

Exactly, those elderly women that can't even open a heavy door are great marksmen.

Brilliant.

And imagine 100's of years ago before guns when man sat around thinking of ways to kill faster and easier. Do you think man wouldn't sit around and come up with something even worse if there where no guns. Especially with todays technology and all kinds of info readily available on the internet. They already have all kinds of bombs.. Talk about being able to take out a bunch of people all at once. And you can believe the next best thing would become just as easy to get. When people are determined to kill, they find a way.

Now imagine that those guns had guns so they could shoot the other guns before the other guns could shoot them! More guns = perfect world!

More guns = less crime...it's provable. Also, it's simple game theory mathematics. It's the same principle as nuclear weapons and the advent of Cold War (as opposed to Hot War). Mutually assured destruction FORCES nonviolent outcomes in disputes.

No Cold War existed until mutually assured destruction existed...all wars before that were "hot".

No "mutual combat" situtations existed until firearms existed. Before that a rapist with a knife beat a woman with a knife 9 times out of ten. Guns changed all that. Now mutually assured destruction can be assured. It's especially powerful as a deterent in places where concealed carry permits are allowed...as otherwise criminals just exploit those who don't carry (in those places where only open carry is allowed).

I've used game theory to prove guns make society safer in several settings, and with no legitimate retort from any anti-gun mathematician. They have to concede I'm correct.

As someone who is well versed in game theory I can assure you, guns = less crime and more nonviolent outcomes than would be available with no guns.

As someone who is well versed in game theory I can assure you, guns = less crime and more nonviolent outcomes than would be available with no guns.

# 1
South Africa:
31,918

Crime in South Africa

# 2
Colombia:
21,898

Crime in Colombia

# 3
Thailand:
20,032

Crime in Thailand

# 4
United States:
9,369

Crime in United States

# 5
Philippines:
7,708

Crime in Philippines

# 6
Mexico:
2,606

Crime in Mexico

# 7
Slovakia:
2,356

Crime in Slovakia

# 8
El Salvador:
1,441

Crime in El Salvador

# 9
Zimbabwe:
598

Crime in Zimbabwe

# 10
Peru:
442

Crime in Peru

# 11
Germany:
269

Crime in Germany

# 12
Czech Republic:
181

Crime in Czech Republic

# 13
Ukraine:
173

Crime in Ukraine

# 14
Canada:
144

Crime in Canada

# 15
Albania:
135

Crime in Albania

# 16
Costa Rica:
131

Crime in Costa Rica

# 17
Azerbaijan:
120

Crime in Azerbaijan

# 18
Poland:
111

Crime in Poland

# 19
Uruguay:
109

Crime in Uruguay

# 20
Spain:
97

Crime in Spain

# 21
Portugal:
90

Crime in Portugal

# 22
Croatia:
76

Crime in Croatia

# 23
Switzerland:
68

Crime in Switzerland

# 24
Bulgaria:
63

Crime in Bulgaria

# 25
Australia:
59

Crime in Australia

# 26
Sweden:
58

Crime in Sweden

# 27
Bolivia:
52

Crime in Bolivia

# 28
Japan:
47

Crime in Japan

# 29
Slovenia:
39

Crime in Slovenia

= 30
Belarus:
38

Crime in Belarus

= 30
Hungary:
38

Crime in Hungary

# 32
Latvia:
28

Crime in Latvia

# 33
Burma:
27

Crime in Burma

# 34
Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of:
26

Crime in Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of

# 35
Austria:
25

Crime in Austria

# 36
Estonia:
21

Crime in Estonia

# 37
Moldova:
20

Crime in Moldova

# 38
Lithuania:
16

Crime in Lithuania

= 39
United Kingdom:
14

Crime in United Kingdom

= 39
Denmark:
14

Crime in Denmark

# 41
Ireland:
12

Crime in Ireland

# 42
New Zealand:
10

Crime in New Zealand

# 43
Chile:
9

Crime in Chile

# 44
Cyprus:
4

Crime in Cyprus

# 45
Morocco:
1

Crime in Morocco

= 46
Oman:
0

Crime in Oman

= 46
Luxembourg:
0

Crime in Luxembourg

= 46
Iceland:
0

Well oh brilliant game theory genius, if your theory is true why is the USA's gun violence 5 to 50 times MORE prevelant than nations that actually enforce gun control???

Yes, because being caught in the crossfire of several would-be heroes is a lot safer than just one nut with a gun. Let's just arm everybody and let them shoot at their discretion!

And? You act as if tyranny is worth such a tiny change in stats. Check the populations of those nations against ours.

My stats had context...yours have none.

Also, crime rates are not simply judged on the deaths on one deterent. You fail to see how much more crime occurs other than gun murder when guns are banned (again tyranny against the AT LEAST 99.989% for what the .011% do).

But that won't phase the irrational.

Yes, because being caught in the crossfire of several would-be heroes is a lot safer than just one nut with a gun. Let's just arm everybody and let them shoot at their discretion!

This is irrational.

And if guns are soooo much of a threat to life, and the flu kills 3 times more people, than the flu problem must be GIGANTIC and warrant national quarantines!

So silly.

My stats had context...yours have none.

Actually his stats' context is... you know... reality. Nice fail.

ProIndividual-3906907

And? You act as if tyranny is worth such a tiny change in stats. Check the populations of those nations against ours

Uuuuhhhh Einstein, those stats are PER CAPITA!!!!.

More guns = more gun crime, not the opposite.

According to The National Self-Defense Survey, the defensive use of guns is about three to four times as common as criminal use of guns.

The National Self-Defense Survey was the first survey specifically designed to estimate the frequency of defensive gun uses. It asked all respondents about both their own use and those of other household members, inquired about all gun types owned, and excluded usage against animals or associated with occupational duties. It also established whether persons claiming a defensive gun use had actually confronted an adversary, actually used their guns in some way (such as threatening their adversaries), and had done so in response to a crime being committed against them.

The National Self-Defense Survey indicated that there are approximately 2.5 MILLION incidents of defensive gun use per year in the United States. A similar national survey conducted by the Police Foundation and sponsored by the National Institute of Justice almost exactly confirmed the findings of the National Self-Defense Survey.

In short, most uses of guns for either criminal or defensive purposes are less dramatic or consequential than one might think. Only 3% of criminal gun assaults involve anyone actually being wounded and the same is true of defensive gun uses. More commonly, guns are merely pointed at another person, or perhaps only referred to (“I’ve got a gun”) or displayed, and this is sufficient to accomplish the ends of the user, whether criminal or non-criminal. Most defensive uses of guns did not in fact involve shooting anyone.

Those findings seem to track with my personal experience when a strange, large man was pounding on my front door at 3:00am so forcefully that the pictures on my walls rattled. When I opened the inner door (I also have an outer storm door), the man began hollering something incoherent at me. So, I displayed an M1 carbine with a 30-round banana clip and chambered a round (I still had the safety on). That display was enough to make that stranger flee. When the cops arrived about seven minutes later, they took my description of the stranger and proceeded to hunt for him in my neighborhood. Nevertheless, my defensive use of a firearm (even though I only had to display it) will never be included in any statistical data base that casts firearms in a positive light.

By definition, all incidents involving successful defensive gun uses fall within the no-injury, no-property-loss category, and thus are largely invisible to the police. Consequently, police rarely hear about the bulk of successful defensive gun uses, instead hearing mostly about an unrepresentative minority of them containing a disproportionately large number of failures.

Moreover, according to crime incidents reported in the National Crime Victimization Survey, victims who use guns for self-protection are less likely to be injured or to lose property than otherwise similar victims who used other forms of self-protection or who did not resist at all.

To summarize, if gun possession among law-abiding citizens tends to reduce violence, then reducing such gun possession is not a social good.

Sheila: "When people are determined to kill, they find a way."

Please don't be offended, but what defeatist thinking! In that case, why not just legalize murder?

And just imagine being a cop and driving up to a scene with bodies all over the pavement and people with guns in their hands standing over them! Which one is the bad guy? Are they all bad guys? Who knows? So you whip out your gun and, faced with several armed people, well...

DROP THE GUN! DROP THE GUN! *bang! bang! bang! bang! bang!*

Arm everybody? Yeah, that sounds real smart... NOT!

Suppose, you carry a gun.You walk around and suddenly you hear shots. You see a guy behind a corner with a gun drawn. Your actions?

Suppose you draw your gun and shoot the other guy. Unfortunately for you a) the other guy was a "good" guy shooting a perp; b) a third guy sees you with a gun drawn and shoots you.

Buy the way, a) almost happened during Arizona shooting where Gabriel Gifford was among injured and others were shot.

ProIndividual-3906907

Ok first I am pro gun, 2nd amendment and own a handgun. Fact is that gun death has little to nothing to do with murder rates, just methods. What has been shown is that the MAJORITY of handgun homicide occurs in inner city low income higher density populations with 15 - 24 year old males being the victims. Those tend to NOT make national news because they are not sensational nor "news worthy"

will o rites... I call BS on your stats. They are NOT per capita and may not even be accurate firearm homicides. The USA number seems to be current but the Mexico seems under reported on a total death count. Mexico has about a 3x per capita homicide rate by firearm. Now strangely, Mexico fits right in there with high density impoverished population.

will o rites... I call BS on your stats

They were Googled from NationMaster and reflect approximately the same numbers from the CDC and other impartial sources.

What can I say if you get your "facts" from "un-biased sources" like the NRA or guncite.com there is surely going to be a discrepancy.

Looks like drinking yourself into a stupor and then walking around with a big stick called a shalalee must work. Look at Ireland.

will

What can I say if you get your "facts" from "un-biased sources" like the NRA or guncite.com there is surely going to be a discrepancy.

That in the past 5 years 40,000 firearms homicides have occurred in Mexico makes for simple math. 8000 per year, that or there were one helluva lot of killings in one of those years if your numbers are accurate. Don't let the FACT that the population of Mexico is 1/3 that of the USA get in your way when computing that per capita result either.

CDC, FBI, DOJ are my primary sources, JAMA on occasion. Not a member of the NRA. Registered Democrat my entire life. Believe in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

wow i gotta tear myself away from this article so i can go to that one and hear the libs tell us how to live in their fantasy land were there are no guns and everything is perfect, is there a link or a posting of the next kum-by-ya sign along? and can i get a unicorn there or do i have to drive a prius ?

fantasy land were there are no guns and everything is perfect,

You mean the other industrialized nations (which we are one) that have real and enforced gun control and a tiny fraction of our gun homicides/violence??

real and enforced gun control and a tiny fraction of our gun homicides/violence??

like i said ....fantasy land........:)

Yup. guess those Mexicans, the one's not allowed to own guns are perfectly safe. Seems only 50,000 killed in the last ten years. Uh huh. Those gun bans sure do work well, don't they? As to the other industrialized nations...did you recall the Swedish shooter? How many unarmed citizens did he kill? Guess what else, mace is also not allowed, ditto pepper spray. In Britain the numbers of murderous stabbings and beatings are at an all time high and the gun bans don't seem to affect the criminals who have guns.

In your perfect world there would be no guns anywhere, until that magic moment, think I'll keep a gun for self defense. Works better than mace or tossing rocks at someone out to kill me with a gun.

real and enforced gun control and a tiny fraction of our gun homicides/violence??

like i said ....fantasy land........:)

Are you really that moronic???

Japan, Germany, U.K., Australia???

I know you believe life ends at the trailer park neon sign but there really is a whole world out there.

You fail to realize that they do make you safer because of your ignorance or irrationality.

Game theory proves it. The 99.989% of legal gun owners who kill no one proves it. Only .011% (1/100th of a percent) of gun owners kill anyone illegally....and that's overestimating because I'm taking 100,000,000 legal gun owners and the 11,000 gun murders to derive that number of .011%. In reality, over 75% of that .011% are NOT legal gun owners.

The flu kills 33,000 Americans a year. 3 times as many as gun murder.

If you were not ignorant to these facts, and rational, you'd realize that you should be 3 times more afraid of the flu than guns...PERIOD.

Asprin and anti-inflammatories kill 15,000 Americans per year, among arthritis pateints alone.

You medicine cabinet is more deadly than guns are.

It's sad how irrational many Americans are about these isssues.

Exactly, mygirl1!

In Mexico you can't even dream of owning a gun unless you were in the army or a cop...and they have one of the worst gun death stats in the world.

mygirl1 - He wasn't Swedish. That was in Norway...

Well, when you deal with ideologues, you generally don't get people deeply cloaked in reality...

ProIndividual: irrational, yes. And sad. And depressing.

Facts, statistics, logic, and game theory won't work on these types of people. They are suspicious and hateful of facts, the educated, and people who know more than they do.

America's proud ignorance. Astounding.

The flu kills 33,000 Americans a year. 3 times as many as gun murder.

You pretend to be intelligent and then compare intentional gun homicides to the flu???

FOX is back on now.

francobobfred

Exactly, mygirl1!

In Mexico you can't even dream of owning a gun unless you were in the army or a cop...and they have one of the worst gun death stats in the world.

Mexico actually has a lower firearm homicide rate per capita than the USA.

Moreover they come HERE to buy their guns.

Craig: 100% correct. My mistake. They ban guns in Norway and Sweden. The massacre happened in Norway.

Yeah, William, those dead people in Mexico weren't murdered by firearms, they were killed by other means. Some were beaten to death, others were tortured and then shot, some were hanged...not ALL of them were merely shot to death with guns. But, wait, they were killed by other means???? Then your gun ban argument seems a mite fallacious since you seem to imply that only guns kill.

What will be your next cause William? I just read that a school bus was in an accident and 12 children will killed are you going to take up a cause against Chevy because it was a Camaro that caused the accident? There is no perfect world and you taking a stand on guns is a lost cause. You are better off trying to cure stupid since that is what causes most of these things to happen. You'll be working on that one for a long time so find a nice chair to sit in.

Then your gun ban argument seems a mite fallacious since you seem to imply that only guns kill.

I never once said or inferred that, I have factually stated they are far and away the most used weapon in intentional homicides, year after year.

If you could cure 1 disease would it be #1 heart disease or #55 (guessing) ALS??

You are better off trying to cure stupid since that is what causes most of these things to happen.

Physician heal thyself Willy. LOL

Thanks armoryguy

Ever wonder why the US has so many gun related incidents? Think it's because people have guns? Really? As another poster, whom you dissed, stated, the numbers of gun incidents when compared to the numbers of gun owners is rather small. Now, I understand your concerns, however, Pandora's box was opened many, many years ago and the criminal element will always find means and ways of acquiring weapons, they are not bound by laws and until the magic moment when all guns disappear, I chose to defend myself.

Just posted on MSNBC, an article about a man shot to death after stabbing four people. Hmmm. He stabbed several people and without a gunshot that killed him, may have gone after several others. Rather ironic coming on the heels of the anti-gun thread.

mygirl1...For someone who purports to demonize ideology, you sure can spout a lot of that pro-Gun Annie Oakley BS. It's obvious that your ideology has the same foundation as all of the rest of DogPatch..."MY way or the highway".

I grew up in the northeast during the 60's. There was NEVER, got that? NEVER the number of mindless innocent children killed by gunfire as in the last decade. So, either you are still too young to know that or you are playing "ignernt" deliberately to support your case for continuing this bloodbath you and your pro-gun ideologues are forcing on the rest of society.

Time to take off that Annie Oakley Cowgirl hat. No one cares what the pro-gun lobby wants anymore. Not when their addiction to guns means putting our kids in danger. Not when kids can't even go to school and get an education that doesn't include killing each other with Big Bad Daddah's guns. Sorry, the pro-gun lobby loses on this one. Why should more than half the population in this country suffer because of spoiled, selfish pro-gun nuts who want to intimidate the rest of us?

Let's see here, you ok with not being able to take care of yourself, that's fine. You wanting to shovel your ideologies down other folks' throat is fine as long as you don't have the power to do so, however, you may be surprised to discover just how many 'pro-gun eejits' there actually are. If you think your 'dogpatch' and 'ignert' comments aren't idicative of racism and bigotry, why, you'd be mistaken. Your kids are in danger because of many things, one of them being that discipline is now considered passe' and extremism has taken the place of common sense. A six year old boy calling his teacher cute, is arrested for sexual harrassment. Guess you think that's a correct way of dealing with such behaviour?

As to defending myself, yup and calling me names isn't going to protect me from someone who could care less about gun bans. If you want to live in a fairy tale land where no one can harm you, be my guest. I assume you're of the liberal mindset, calling names and casting insults towards someone whose ideas and beliefs differ from your own seems to be a hallmark of the breed.

And yet you commented.

what connection did they have to the shooter

The "connection" is they are his victims by firearm assault and murder.

Would you be happier if it was at a Dairy Queen??

Wiliam

Would you be happier if he had just run them over with a car?

i question,true it could be conceived as a comment,just a simple reminder there is as of yet very little reported, but you just wait, it will turn into the daily freak show.... no need for pesky things like facts, heck this place will have the whole story in a matter of nono seconds. course it will be the normal piss and moan about gun control, religion,government, hell some moron will even blame global warming. wait and see, who needs factual reporting when you have this group?...............:)

navyvet98

Wiliam

Would you be happier if he had just run them over with a car?

Navyvet, when cars are annually involved in 13,000 intentional homicides I will consider it.

Until then I will continue to try to curb the insane amount of easily portable firearms that are FAR AND AWAY the most used in intentional homicides, not accidents involving a machine used for transportation.

William, no one cares what you think. In fact, you just motivated me to buy another hand gun legally. You got legal part didn't you? It's still legal to own firearms. Tool.

. In fact, you just motivated me to buy another hand gun legally

I'm sorry you are so insecure. I hope this one you purchase is the one that finally makes you feel like a "real man".

Truth...How many kids have been killed on schools grounds by cars? How many are killed every day on city streets by drive by shootings for no reason other than their right to use the streets their taxes pay for? You are not part of a militia. You can drop that baloney interpretation of the Second Amendment. If you read the rest of that Amendment, you'd realize that the only right to gun ownership is through a taxpayer paid militia.

It's the the Nutty Relics of Antiquity (NRA) members stopped reinventing the meaning of the Second Amendment.

The NRA ripped itself a new one when they tried to imply that gun deaths are not now the Number 1 killer of school children, the Number 1 killer of pedestrians and the Number 1 killer of women. The Nutty Relics of Antiquity can just stick it.

will

I'm sorry you are so insecure. I hope this one you purchase is the one that finally makes you feel like a "real man".

You expect people to take your comments seriously when you resort to juvenile personal attacks?

@ Ewent.

The 2nd Amendment when it was drafted referred to a "well regulated militia" that was comprised of armed PRIVATE citizens. and "well regulated" referred to a firearm and sufficient ammunition. Bone up on your history.

Scooter Tramp,

It is a waste of Oxygen with Williamofrites. Some day he will wish us Gun Huggers were there when he took a bullet from someone just to get 2 dollars from his wallet

The death penalty only allows the convicted to stay housed on death row with access to numerous appeals, which are automatic, for 10 years. Many stay on death row for 20 to 30 years before they are executed. The cost for the appeals is higher than if they were just sentenced with no parole.

Right because people who don't fear death are detered by the death penalty (sarcasm).

And because revenge is what "justice" means (sarcasm).

How do judges give people food? I'm confused.

Right, Judges don't give them foods they take them away that's the problem got it? They take them away by their opinated rulings. Duh.

Exactly Mel. While I don't believe that the death penalty is a deterrent, it will certainly stop THAT person from ever killing again.

It came on the news less than an hour ago. The shooter was in court on a sexual abuse charge (apparently out on bail) and during a break, went out to his truck and got his gun. Apparently the family and others were outside and he started firing on the target rich environment. He shot his daughter (the victim and prime witness in the case) and ran over her as he was fleeing. The fatality was an older woman, relationship unknown. The shooter is a black male 30-40 years old, in hospital and still alive at this time.

AzRancher, I guess I should be thankful then when I went to court for my divorce that I didn't break out then and there and shoot everyone in sight. That's a foolish rationalization. I suppose I could understand it if the person doing the shooting was shooting at the person they were court against, or maybe even his defense attorney, or the judge. But innocent bystanders?

I don't buy it. We need to stop blaming others, or situations for our actions. This country has become a society of "It's not my fault".

Right...murderers do.

And you are a communist and unamerican and against the constituition if you deny men who force incestual sex on their mentally disabled daughters from owning a gun. got it. (Is sarcasm tag needed?)

There is not a law that can be written that will protect anyone from Crazed, Armed, and Deadly.

Real smart Chris!

Give everybody guns! Let's have bigger shootouts in the street so more people can get killed!

Picture this you Wyatt Earp wannabe, hundreds of people hustling and bustling in the street. Suddenly shots ring out, so people like you, with probably no training in the tactical use of deadly force and worse, ex-military trained to shoot at whose shooting Pull a gun and start blasting. No training nor do you possess the ability to quickly and accurately discern who is doing the shooting and then you pull out your handy-dandy 15-shot 9mm and begin shooting at and spraying bullets at the person YOU THINK is shooting. Then 10 other people pull out their guns and start shooting at who they think is shooting. Then the police pull up and start shooting at who they think is shooting.

Or do you think that, like in the movie "Wanted" you can curve a bullet around a person YOU with no training determined to be innocent and only hit the one YOU think is guilty. And by the way; how do you know he or she is guilty, because they are shooting at people. How would you know in a split second who set it all off? Suppose the older lady who was killed actually started the shooting or pulled a gun on someone, as you would, on the man who shot and killed her?

Or do you think that guns are a deterrent when everybody's got guns? You know 30 years ago when men started wearing earrings, it was a symbol of decadence and definance. It means nothing but jewelry because everybody's wears them! So you and others keep up this ignorance that people walking the streets with guns makes us safe, and maybe I'll read about you here one day as one of those victims.

I mean it is arrogent presumption to assume that whatever situation you may encounter while carrying a gun, that you will be able to deal it and walk away untouched, with the good guy winning! And what about the bullets. They have no name nor do they care about yours. Most people that get hurt are innocent people. So while you're blasting away at that desperado, one of your bullet goes through a wall, window, or into a car and hurts and kills somebody, perhaps you would be arrested with the criminal and you and this person could swap stories or something else? If one of my relatives is hurt or killed because of a fire-fight that you started by shooting back at who YOU thought was wrong, I would personally spare no expense to see you suffer just as much as I would if that perp had shot my relative, as YOU BOTH would be showing no regard for other people's safety!

Get It!

Absolutely. And from what I read on sites like these, you should always have your finger on the trigger. You never know. An elderly person or 3 year-old could be lurking around the corner just waiting to shoot.

Gotta send that satire detector off to the repair shop, eh, kenny?

Kennyfreethinker and sam adams. You should thank everyone that carries a gun so you bleeding hearts can walk free and be safe. Yes bad guys have guns but you never hear about lives saved because a responible person had a carry gun and saved a life. Give all the guns to Gov and the bad guys will have guns. When you are put up against a wall with a gun to your head and all you can give is 10 bucks in your pocket and your wife's virtue,you will wish you had a carry gun. Don't holler for help cause all the guns are taken away by you.

7.62x39 is my favorite caliber. Enough punch to take down a target and readily available with out all of the weight.

I believe it is the right wing pundits and the idiots who take their speil as gospel that are responsible for the tensions....

Don't you left wingnuts know when to get off your knee's?, come on, obama knows when he has been licked!.

Never, ever could it be anything other than 'right wing pundits' speiling people responsible for all acts of violence. How convenient that you have found the perfect scapegoat for all the ills of the world. One sided views have a tendency to ignore facts in favor of pushing agendas...you wouldn't be succeptible to that, would you?

The true meaning of stupid! Absolutely!

Your statement is the definition of stupid. I guess you feel Bush was right for putting millions out of work, out of their homes, starving, and destitude and not giving them anything to help, but Obama is wrong for trying to help? They say we are fighting terrorism yet those like you are the ones doing the terrorizing! Sorry as hell, especially for an American!

Someone got their feelings hurt. LOL.

When will you Idiots stop blameing what was and take the blame for the blast 4 years. How has Obama helped except putting us farther into debt? I will keep my pride and weapons and thank America as a Vet. Bless Ted Nugent

Something you never see on the MSN homepage and reported by MSNBC are the reports of bad guys being shot by folks with a legal right to defend themselves.

Because that rarely, if ever, happens. The one person with a gun during Loughner's massacre in Tucson tried to be a hero and nearly shot the wrong person!

The bad part of your argument is that there are an equal number of armed older people who could have their guns turned on themselves. My dad is a case in point. He always had guns to "defend himself". He swore when he was 70+ years old, had such bad COPD he couldn't walk five feet without getting out of breath and had mid-stage Alzheimers that he could "blow away" anyone not belonging there who came in his apartment. Uh, yeah, right. Any young miscreant could have taken his gun and turned it on him. I took away what I thought were all of his guns when he was first diagnosed with dementia, but he had one hidden that I never found until I had to move him to assisted living. By then, he was letting people into his apartment that he didn't know and was rather delusional. When I found this other gun, either a rifle or shotgun, I flipped. It was hidden behind the headboard of his bed. There is NO WAY he should have had any sort of gun. I don't care HOW legal it was.

Ummm, seems the FBI and ATF were right handy with killing people at Ruby Ridge and Waco. Guess running them over with tanks missed your attention? Then, OK city was a bomb. School shootings are tragic, now, how many people have been killed with cars? Think you can solve the world's problems by banning guns? Really? Then you must also ban autos, homemade bombs, knives, rocks, clubs, mothballs, confectioners sugar, fertilizer, nailguns, saws, hammers, glass, chairs.....

Don't forget about aircraft, cruise ships, or building in hurricane, forrest fire, earthquake, flood, and tornado prone regions!. Oh I almost forgot to mention SEPTIC TANKS!.

Okay I am from the area, and I have a family member that works at that courthouse. It was not a custody dispute as somebody guessed. The gunman was the defendant in a sexual assault case. Against his now 20 year old mentally challenged daughter, who was one of the victims today. He shot her, then ran her over with his truck. She is still in critical condition. One of the other victims was another witness in his case, his ex wife. The person that is deceased and the other victim were innocent bystanders.

What about all the people shot since Obama has been in office

You might be 53 in Texas but you are ignorant. in facts. It was Bill Clinton that repealed Glass-Stegall but then liberals hate the truth. Now go salute the Obama Flag and drink some more Kool-Aid.

you mean it wasn't Bush that started the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq? That is where the money was spent and for nothing but death and heartache. If you really want to blame someone, start with the ones that signed us up for a war we did not need and did not want. (they knew before the war that there were no "weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq. Liberals are not "afraid of the truth", that is the domain of the Republicans. When confronted with the truth they just blather like idiots and accuse everyone else of being unpatriotic or un-American. So go rub your guns and continue with your delusions.

Kat the dems had control of the house and senate, and unlike obama with Libya, Bush put it up for a vote as per the constitution. So, who's really to blame? I'll give you a hint, it wasn't the republicans!.

deregulation of the banking industry started under Reagan.

There was a bailout of Savings and Loans by Reagan, he also bailed out Chrysler.

Kat Rub your head and continue with your delusions

7.62x39mm is great but 50 BMG is nicer

The gun-clutchers come here to rant when FOX goes to commercial.

WilliamOfRites

The gun-clutchers come here to rant when FOX goes to commercial.

I thought it was the gun grabbers who lived at FOX. My mistake, it's the ones who believe the talking heads all the time.

Was it not Obama that wanted FOX off the air? Of Rights must watch Fox to know when it is commerical time.