"She was 14 when she helped her boyfriend kill her grandfather and aunt in Birmingham by stabbing and shooting them and then setting them ablaze. Jones also tried to kill her sister, 10, prosecutors said."

Anybody in their right mind, knowingly commiting a crime of this magnitude regardless of age should pay the price. I would even go further and say, they need to be excuted!!!

"The Equal Justice Initiative says the now 22-year-old has turned her life around and is deserving of a chance at freedom"

What about the victims who will never have a chance of freedom?

Pay for your crime...end of story!

... and their fate is even more permanent.

They were found guilty of their crimes. They need to learn what that means. Kids had been getting away with murder for years, and because of their "Tender" age, were only held as a juvenile till 18 or 21 or so. This is wrong. These kids are murderers and deserve the same treatment as any other murderer.

Keep them where they are.

For lifers, they don't offer us anything. Absolutely nothing," said Tremble, an inmate at the Saginaw Correctional Facility in Freeland, Mich.

What did YOU offer those you murdered? Sorry. You're getting what you deserve.

Seems that way to me too. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

These individuals are "animals" and society needs some protection from these individuals. Juveniles are now and have been the most violent segment in society and it's time the courts recognized this fact. Keep the animals of the streets so they can no longer "prey" on other citizens. They knew the difference between "right & wrong" and they should pay the price for their crimes. Take a life - give up your freedom - no bargains.

One of these low-lifes killed *2* elderly people and still thinks he should get out. Puh-leaze! We will teach the dregs of society yet. Lock em up, melt the key down for scrap!

Please provide evidence for your statements, or are they just your opinions?

Most people manage to make it to adulthood without murdering anyone. It's unfortunate but all of these people knew that murder was wrong.

I think we need to reassess exactly at what age we consider consider humans "children" When I think of "children" I'm thinking maybe around age 10(?) Todays youth are much, much more savvy than the youth of yesteryear. They experience violence & sex & drugs at a much younger age than I ever did. Partly because of the Internet, partly because of a subculture that glorifies and encourages this stuff, hormonal changes come earlier.....if people can make babies and commit crimes at 13 & 14 then they need to suffer the consequences of that behavior ..........

I hope they never see the light of day again! Their victims won't so why should they? A couple of snot nosed low lifes rotting in jail for the rest of their lives. Sounds good to me!

The whole problem is that people don't think we can change, that we can't be rehabbed.

You can't. You are a cancer to the human race. No person that could stab their brother, shoot an elderly couple in their sleep, or kill their own grandmother could possibly ever be a productive functional member of society.

These kids should have been executed for their crimes. I'm tired of society giving these screwed-up excuses for humans a second chance at every turn. Stealing a candy bar when you're 14 is one thing... killing your grandma is another.

I did 14 years in prison for murder and assault, i had just turned 17 two weeks before when i committed my crime and even though what i did may not have been as harsh as what some of these children did, and yes we forget they are just children, in some ways it was. I was a messed up kid, used and abused drugs and couldn't stay out of trouble, with no hope and lost in general. i was released in 1999 and outside of a couple of speeding tickets, i have never broken the law since then. I am married, two kids and senior in collage, about to earn my BFA.

No matter what i say i won't change anyone's mind, because its not your child in jail or prison, since they are just throw aways, out of sight and until the next time another child committs a crime like this "out of mind." When a culture cares more about oil prices, record high temps, and the next music trend, we have lost our priorities.

I did 14 years in prison for murder and assault

So you intentionally took the life of another human being. You should have been executed. You do NOT deserve your wife, your kids, your education, or your life, because you took those chances away from someone else, permanently and irrevocably. Murder is not forgivable.

Some of these might be questionable for life, but then some of them like the girl that shot the 2 elderly people in the head as they slept to steal their car need to never see the light of day again.

For that age, or any age, either a long-term sentence with rehabilitation or the death penalty is the best. Spending one's whole life in prison without parole is more cruel and inhumane... and a burden on taxpayers.

Each of the young people thought they had the right to hand down a death sentence to someone else. Now they are complaining because they got life? Only an idiot doesn't know that killing someone for anything other than self defense is wrong, kids know that too. So some of them, after spending 10 or 15 years with hardened convicted felons says they are "reformed". Into what? A sneakier killer and thief more determined to get away with it?

I guess it sucks to be them What chance should they get? Their victims are dead.

With the appeals process it is actually less money to keep them for life in prison them to execute them, so let them rot. At best let them go to schools and tell their tale of how they spend their days in a cell and will forever to students to maybe scare straight the other few bad eggs out there.

When a human being turns into a monster ... they should be put away forever no matter the age.

And the folks who think otherwise ... should be held directly responsible for their care and actions .....

Release the non-violent drug offenders. Keep the murderers, rapists and other violent offenders as long as you like.

You know, there is a really good book about exactly this subject. It's called "Clockwork Orange" by Anthony Burgess. Many of you have likely seen the Stanley Kubrick adaptation to film. Trust me when I tell you that the book is far better (the ending is drastically different). Can these individuals be rehabilitated? It's possible... but is it worth the risk to release them back into society?

The dead victims did not receive any mercy or early parole.

They are still dead and always will be.

I think it really depends on the circumstances but if a teenager commits a heinous act then the punishment should fit the crime. I don't like this idea of 'second chances' for some just because of their chronological age- that pretty much goes out the window in terms of murder. The victims don't get second chances. Just turning age 18 shouldn't be a 'get out of jail free' card

"Did these two young men engage in thought processes that would make us say today they're the type of individuals who can never be rehabilitated, never change and be locked up to never see the light of day?"

Thought processes or lack there of?

Hard as it is I believe for most of these offenders a harsh sentence is a must. There is a reason that alot of gangs use young kids to commit all the dirty work and that is they get off easier. I think we need to send a message!

well ty chris, but i think my wife and kids would disagree. But if all you got out of my post was just that, you missed the point.

I didn't miss the point. The point is you ended someone's life. As I said, you do not even deserve the chance to have a wife and children. You took that opportunity from the person you murdered. They will never wake up next to the person they love ever again. They will never enjoy their favorite food ever again. They will never go fishing or watch another football game ever again. They will never see the leaves come out in spring ever again. You took all these things from them, permanently. You do not deserve to even take another breath. Being a "messed-up kid" is not an excuse. I hope you realize this.

Title of article: "14 years old: Too young for life in prison?".

By just reading the title of the article, you would think that they are too young.

But, when you read the crimes that they committed and don't forget, they had premeditation before they committed the crimes, and we don't know all the details of their crimes, but I still don't feel sorry for them at all. I only feel sorry for the victims.

I truly believe that they should pay a heavy price. Perhaps half of a life sentance, something like 40 years or so.

Are you realizing that you don't deserve what you have, if you follow your own train of thought? You are a hypocrite.

I'm not willing to commit murder. I am willing to have a jury of someone's peers condemn them to death based on the FACT that they ended someone's life willfully. There is a difference, whether or not you like it. Actions deserve equal consequences.

@petefromsunshinestate

I am in medical school, so I'm pretty sure I know more about scientific development than you. If you're trying to talk about science then let's talk about it. A human's brain doesn't fully develop until around the age of 25, even longer for some people, especially males. Does this mean anybody under the age of 25 should be given a second chance? No. It doesn't. From the ages of 7-10 almost all individuals fully have a developed sense of right and wrong. If these were 7 or 8 year olds it would be a different story. At 14, unless mentally disabled, they knew what they were doing. They knew what the consequences could or would be. Criminals of that caliber need to be kept from society. End of story. This country focuses way too much on the rights of the criminals and way too little on the rights of the victim, the victims relatives and friends, and the rights of the rest of the population that these criminals get released upon.

While some of them may deserve to never get out of jail, I have to think that at such a young age, there is a chance they can change. It doesn't take away what they did, but they are sent to a "Correctional Facility" for a reason. If they are "Corrected," then they should be let go at some point. It really comes down to the crime itself, the mindset of the individuals involved, and how they have changed over the years. At the very least, a chance at getting out at some point in life is appropriate. If somebody ever deserves to be released is up for debate on a case to case basis.

While I certainly never killed anybody, if somebody were to look at my life as a whole they would see that people can change. I am living proof. It only takes a realization that change needs to be made, and the courage to enact that change. Support from other people is nice, but not 100% necessary. I was lucky to have everything I needed to help make the changes in me.

If you are old enough to do adult things, you are old enough to accept adult consequences. This isn't a case of, "I shot my sister because I thought the gun was a toy" or "I saw a violent cartoon and thought it was OK to bash someone with a baseball bat". NO! These were cases of cold blooded violent murder, and these kids KNEW it was wrong.

The kid who went with his brothers to the video store robbery - at any time, he could have spoken up and said, "No, I'm not doing this."

The kids that got in a fight with their 51 year old neighbor - good lord! Toilet paper his house! Blow up his mail box! Throw a rock through his window! Spray paint his car! That's what normal teen juvenile delinquents do! You don't beat him to death with a baseball bat and then burn his house down!!! Where did they even come up with this? If someone is that deranged at 15, it is pretty doubtful they are going to be any better later on.

In any event, SOMEONE has to pay for the crime. If nothing else, this deterent has to be in place to keep kids in the future from doing the same thing. If you lessen the consequences, you take away a reason for the kid to think twice before doing it. In fact, you enable them to be violent criminals, giving them a "Get out of jail free" card once they reach a certain age. "Hey we have to bump off a guy - tell Jimmy to do it. He's 16 and will get away with it."

What does it hurt if you consider parole after 40 years? Well, it could hurt the next person that convict kills -- and their family and friends. Here in Massachusetts we saw parolees kill policemen, family members, etc. This Massachusetts Moderate says you do the crime, you do the time. I don't want to see you free in a dark alley somewhere.

I have to think that at such a young age, there is a chance they can change.

No. There should be no "second chances" when it comes to murder.

Imagine the worst thing that has ever happened to you. Your wife cheated on you. Your house burned down. You lost all your money and your job when the stock market crashed.

ALL these things are recoverable. You can always start over. Someone who has been murdered cannot start over. Everything is over for them, ended prematurely by someone who simply is not fit to live in our society. Accordingly, the person who murdered them should not be afforded a chance to begin again. They gave that up when they ended someone else's life.

I'm no expert here, but I think that lately the data has shown that for guys, our brains don't fully the 'reasoning' section until we are about 20-25yrs old. I will admit, when I was 16-17, I drove drunk probably 100 times, and crashed my car(normally minor) on multiple occasions. I grew up in the 80's, though I don't think the decade matters. Pretty much every generation grows up with a war waging somewhere, with 'crime out of control', and wild kids running around on the loose. I and my friends did stuff that could have easily landed us in jail, we were just lucky enough to never get caught. Somewhere around 23, I got my act together, and got it all straightened out.

If I had gotten caught and sentenced, I would have grown up in prison and probably never have been right. Though we all want to tell ourselves that we make our own paths and control our own destiny, we often forget the role that 'luck' plays in our lives. Whether it is getting a job that gets you out of an old town, or a spouse who provides the balance that your life needs, luck and random chance often shape our lives as much as anything else.

If we want to keep kids locked up forever, what is the point? Prison, as much as it pains some people, should be where we keep criminals while they can be rehabilitated. It is never easy, but just locking up a larger and larger percentage of our population is not a solution we can afford.

I may be wrong but don't these people have the ability to be PARDONED by either the Governor of the state or the President for federal crimes? If this is true then a remedy is available to them.

I bet most people that are fine with these sentences for very young people would give a free pass or at least not a harsh penalty to the soldier that in cold blood killed those 16 Afghans.

chris, i live with that everyday and don't you think that is why i changed every process of my thinking, if i didn't have remorse,

Exactly. You LIVE with it every day. Even that privilege has been deprived, by you, of the person you murdered. You LIVE with remorse. You still think about it every day you are ALIVE.

How very contrite. I don't care how bad you feel... you are still ALIVE, which is something you took from another person. You took it. That is not forgivable.

I grew up in the 80's, though I don't think the decade matters. Pretty much every generation grows up with a war waging somewhere

Not to be a nitpicker, but the 80s were basically the most war-free decade America has ever experienced. Be glad you grew up then. I turned 18 and got my selective service card a month before 9/11. Talk about bad timing.

It's a shame that some of these kids came from dysfunctional families or in bad situations and I do feel sorry for them. I wish every child grew up in a loving, nurturing household, as every child should.

However, I feel that when a child as young as 14 or 15 makes the conscious decision to kill someone, they need to pay the price. If they can commit a violent crime that young without a "fully developed brain", then what would they do when their brain actually is "fully developed"? Violent crimes are not worthy of a "do-over".

I do feel that each crime should be closely looked at and justice served accordingly. There may be reasons behind each murder, such as abuse, where the adolescent may have just snapped and killed their abuser. It doesn't sound like that's the case, though, with most of these teen murders. Not only were the victims killed, but set on fire? Killing a couple or an entire family? No way should these people even be considered for parole.

They need to learn what that means.

If you spend the rest of your life in prison it doesn't matter if you learn a lesson or not. I thought prison was a means of reformation. Life imprisonment is useless. If you're never going to let them out, give them death.

Chris, I know you have been God for a while and live with a stone in your hand ready to throw at anyone that crosses your path ready to condemn them for the life that they lived that is outside of your thinking, but i'm sorry you can't put a bullet in my head and take away a husband and father, but your anger, hate and contempt is your own and my past is my own and the fact is that many have done things in thier lives that we all could attack, judge and life with no ability to forgive or give a second chance, based on your thinking my life should have been taken but in that process, two lives, my children would never have come into being. The last person on this planet who will forgive me isn't you...its myself, sorry but you aren't my judge or my jury, nor my God.

"The whole problem is that people don't think we can change, that we can't be rehabbed."

no, that ISNT the problem. I dont CARE if they can be rehabbed or not, totally NOT the point.

The Point?

They should be locked up for life because of the crime they committed, they dont DESERVE freedom...because they took someone elses life - in some cases, more than one person, and to me this is as close to an EYE FOR AN EYE as we can get.

In my opinion, every last one of these people should have been executed.

And their parents (if they didnt kill them) should have spent 20 years in prison for raising such a POS.

The problem is...these "kids now adults" dont seem to understand they had no right to take another persons life, nor do they seem to connect the dots that because they did...the dont deserve to live their own lives...and frankly should be grateful they arent sitting on death row.

It is a have your cake and eat it too party.

These same people that want a 14 year old sentenced to death won't let them drink a beer or have sex either.

Either you're old enough to be trusted or expected trust to be an adult or not. If you are not then the punishment should be in alignment with that. If you are then the freedom should be in alignment. If you can be given a full automatic machine gun (selective fire) and told to kill the enemy you should be able to have a freaking beer, get married, buy your own firearm and go into a sex shop.

These double standards have to go. I don't want to see crazy 14 year old murderers go free but their sentence should be in alignment with the amount of responsibility and maturity we expect from a 14 year old. Of course we expect 14 year old children to know better than to kill someone outside of self defence. However, how much responsibility should be given to them is a tiered process and not the same as an adult. Actually I don't that I believe that last statement as an absolute. We need to evaluate that properly as a society and make a better judgement then what we have now.

No questions asked, give the full penalty. People who claim their age, view of the world, developing minds, or whatever excuse caused them to do such things should lead to public forgiveness are dillusional to the weight a person's actions carry. Once you have done something it is unchangeable, and it is inexcusable to claim ignorance of any kind. The world we live in has made too many accomodations for the horrid and weak, and subjugates the capable and strong to accept them. There are too many aggressors who get to claim they are the victim, and then have droves of people sympathize for them!

RWEvans,

First, I'm glad your life is going well and you, so far, have turned it around.

The issue I have with some of these other cases (I don't know the details of the murder you committed) is that these murderers think they deserve less harsh treatment. Depending on the conditions under which the murder took place the murderer might never deserve to be released. None of the murderers in this article deserve to be released. On a case by case basis, we might judge that they have made sufficient progress to be allowed to be released but they in no way deserve it. From all the information procided in this article these murderers deserved execution.

As for your teenage years, you made those choices. There are millions of kids that are presented with huge obstacles and trials every year. The vast majority of them do not commit murder. When you present your story I hope you present it as one in which YOU made stupid choices and explain how you are working to overcome your weakness and prove you are worthy of the incredible opportunity you have been given. Too many ex-cons continue to blame outside influences for their troubles rather than accepting full responsibility for them.

I hope you continue to do well.

Good luck!

I have a solution for these "teens" with life sentences:

The Death Penalty.

Be thankful they have life in prison rather than that. They can rot there as far as I am concerned. The lawyers trying to defend these psychos can bleed the families of the murderers dry all they like, but at least they have clients to bleed rather than corpses.

@RWEvans - I'm glad you were able to turn your life around, but, unfortunately, you are the exception, not the rule. The studies have shown that a majority of offenders commit crimes again once they are released. Additionally, for most, there is simply not much out there for them. Most companies will not hire a convicted felon. So at best, if they work at all, it will be at a low paying job, with not much available in the way of advancement. Let alone, with crimes like these in their past, how can anyone trust them? Sometimes, people need to be put away for good, there is no salvaging them. They choose to commit these crimes, they choose the punishment. This is another huge mistake by a group of people that represent a small minority of the American population. (Look at the survey results, it is clear cut.)

RW - it's a shame the person you killed isnt as flipping lucky as you huh?

No one owes you anything, and frankly you should be GRATEFUL YOU HAVE FREEDOM THAT ALLOWS PEOPLE TO CONDEMN YOU.

You should have been "tossed away" just like what you did to the person you killed.

It's not about redemption, or turning your life around...it's about NOT BEING SUCH A POS IN THE FIRST PLACE THAT YOU NEVER DO WHAT YOU DID.

I cant even begin to understand how a HUMAN BEING AT ANY AGE takes another persons life.

Though, clearly thats something you understand...please, do tell how someone just takes another persons life...and please, dont blame drugs...YOU DID IT, not the drugs.

Sorry Rw, but I'm with the others. You should still be locked up. Simple assault, theft/burglary, etc... those are forgivable crimes. Murder is completely unforgivable. What gives you the right to be given a second chance when your victim has not? Able to be rehabilitated or not, murder is unforgivable. Your excuses of use and abuse, and abuse of drugs are merely a weak excuse.

Back to the cases presented, Only hurtrell Jackson should be given a second chance. Jackson new his partner has a gun and should have known what he was capable of, so he should receive a stiff sentence, but a parole option should be granted as he was not the triggerman.

I'm sorry but if one of my relatives was a victim of one of these dirt bags, I would make them WISH they were in prison!!! A 'second chance' when you murder someone??? HA NOPE.

The diatribes chris relate to "was" instead of what "is"....Maybe i don't deserve this life, yet i still have it, maybe i shouldn't be here...but I am...so now what? do i take my own life to make you happy? deprive my children of a father, my wife of a husband to make you happy? The problem is I am here and i cannot change the past, i do like must humans, i have learned and still learning daily how to live this life, and since time is nothing more than the human measurement of change within the known universe and once changed cannot be unchanged there is nothing more i can do.

I have no problem with a life sentence for teens.

Age is just a number.

The devil lies in the details and we only get one chance to get it right during the developing years. You can blame society, the family and the teachers but in a crime it is the criminal who must stand along. Justice needs to be done more for the victim and his/her family than the criminal. It has nothing to do about the criminal, he/she already forfeited his/her trust from society by committing the crime and society has the right to remove them.

I don't care what psychologists or psychiatrists say, you can rehabilitate a criminal mind.

By the time a kid is 10 years old they know right from wrong. And they know there are gradations of right and wrong, i.e. stealing a candy bar isn't as wrong as murder.

And people talk about the kids' circumstances: oh poor kid, he had a tough upbringing, bad parents, etc. What about all those kids who grow up and DON'T murder somebody. When you murder in cold blood like these kids did, I'm sorry to say, you do NOT deserve a second chance. Period.

For the guy who murdered and eventually got out and has a life - I'm glad you turned it around for yourself but you really didn't deserve the second chance - and you are a rare person to come out of prison and not commit more crimes. Most criminals, whether because they are inherently bad, or due to the environment they've spend so much time in, WILL re-offend.

I am NOT willing to risk the lives and well-being of society on the tiny percentage chance this murederer actually is rehabilitated. And the fact that these kids think they deserve a second chance shows that they don't. If you murder somebody, you show true remorse by admitting you DON'T deserve a second chance.

I cant even begin to understand how a HUMAN BEING AT ANY AGE takes another persons life.

Oh, but he's "different" now. He has "changed". We should all put flowers around his neck and hug him because he has "changed" and become a person who doesn't kill anymore.

You know, never mind the fact that the vast majority of people would never do that in the first place. We should give Rw accolades because he has managed not to be a complete and utter monster since he got out of jail. Never mind the fact that he had to end another person's life to have his epiphany. He has changed. That makes everything better. Why, any day now, the person he killed might rise from the grave and go to college and have a family! Just because he changed!

That is not forgivable

Christ would disagree. But, I do believe our society has the right to impose an eye for an eye punishments. If the crime has circumstances (youth, acted with others, drug induced, etc.) then prison with rehabilitation is a good way to help a fellow being. If the person committed the crime knowingly, at ages teen and up, I believe that a quick death penalty would serve the community best.

cc:

Here in Massachusetts we saw parolees kill policemen, family members, etc.

I'll second that. My cousin was a state trooper in Massachusetts that was killed by a parolee. He stopped the guy on a routine traffic stop, and the parolee had guns in the car. So he shot my cousin to try to avoid going to prison. My cousin returned fire, and they were both hit. The parolee was just injured, my cousin was hit fatally. And now the parolee's back in prison and my cousin is gone.

I am totally with you Chris.....! Murder cannot be forgiven...you made that a choice so you no longer have "ANY" choices...what if someone just like you killed your wife and children..would you ever want that person on the street again...you deserve no happiness AT ALL! But hey, you can justify anything if you can murder someone. I am speaking from experience...my aunt was murdered by a couple coke heads for $3.00 dollars in her purse...

correction:

I don't care what psychologists or psychiatrists say, you can cannot rehabilitate a criminal mind.

Sean - believing that murder is an unforgivable offense and deserves the death penalty is not an exclusively Christian principle. I am not a Christian. I'm not religious. I just think people who take other people's lives intentionally do not deserve the privilege of their own life anymore.

I would just tell these pieces of sh!t...the minute these people can rise from their graves and live amongst us again, then and only then will you be a free man/womna/child.

They should thank their lucky stars I'm not their judge, because I would be their judge, jury and if need be the one to pull the swith/push the plungers on the needles, these scum are on use and no benefit to society. If they are not executed they need to worked to exhaustion every day (all prisoners I'm talking about). Bring back the chain-gangs to clean up highways, parks, dig ditches and the next day fill them back in and repeat. None of this TV and movies and weight rooms and exercise yards....work them to exhaustion every day 7 days a week, that way they will have no energy to cause problems in the prison and at least be doing something to pay back society while they're in jail.

Thuis is prison and should be run as such, these are not daycares and these are not kids, they are cold-blooded murderers and should be treated as such.

I never had to say anything about my past on here, the main reason i said anything was to add to the discussion. believe or not i do respect everyone's thoughts on this but the debate shouldn't really be "what do we do with these kids now" but more so how do we as a culture stop this from happening. i have only seen a couple of people talk about that and shouldn't that be the main thought here? prevention, daily kids are killing other kids with unsecured hand guns, kids are being killed and forgotten, children are being left to their own vices to survive, yet we stand by and just debate the problems, we fret over polictics and greed in the media, while our kids spend more time on their cell phones, x boxs, and internet than sitting with parents talking, doing homework or playing some ball in the back yard and then asking, "I don't understand why Timmy is so distant" or why they are out at parties in the middle of the night, running away, joining gangs etc....either we start really caring, or we just need to build more prisons. Peace!

RW - you seem to be missing the point, you never should have had this opportunity to "change your life around".

period.

of course, since you did get that chance...you're damn right its EXACTLY what you should have done, and no one here or anywhere in the world needs to applaud you for DOING THE RIGHT THING. I hope you are intelligent enough to grasp that.

The fact remains, had you spent your entire life in prison without parole...you'd have been getting exactly what you deserved, and nothing more.

again, please just acknowledge your damn lucky...and arent deserving of that luck.

if you could do that, i think we'd have more respect for you.

The fact of the matter is there is no sentence other than death that con come remotely close to being appropriate for murder. The finality of murder for the victim should loom over any sentence for those convicted. Murder is inherently wrong. Barring documented mental deficiency, I tend to think that the death penalty is appropriate. Anything less would lessen the value of th life taken.

RW, your story is interesting. I don't know if EVERY murderer should spend the rest of his life in jail; after all not EVERY murderer gets the death penalty. Here's MY conundrum: these kids are getting life without parole, and you did 14 years for murder - only 14 years! I'm glad you've turned your life around, but that just doesn't seem like enough time. And maybe life without parole IS too much for a 14-year-old; but then again I really don't believe in this whole "life without parole" thing. I mean, LIFE was supposed to mean life but obviously doesn't; why should I believe that adding two words will make any difference. It might mean 40 years instead of 14, but until I actually see people with life sentences die in prison (like Susan Atkins did recently), then I'm just not inclined to believe it.

It was a brave thing you did, coming on NewsVine and telling your story, knowing you'd be judged harshly and criticized by pretty much everyone, I commend you for that. I hope you DO continue to be a law-abiding citizen, treat your wife & kids well and finish that BFA, maybe you can help other troubled kids stay out of prison or change their lives - THAT would be something. Best of luck, God bless.

I believe when we take a life we have destroyed not just that life but the victim's children, parents, siblings, spouse, relatives, friends etc. etc. I just finished reading "Restless Souls" about Sharon Tate & the Manson murders....her family GRIEVED for the rest of their lives....what mercy was Sharon shown? When will Sharon & her soon to be born son be able to resume their lives? When will the family's pain be healed? Murderers do not care how many lives they destroy-and its usually more than one.........

A 14 yr old boy killed the sister of a friend of mine, when she was a little girl. I won't give the circumstances, just to know that family hasn't had a good night sleep since. When the boy got to be 18, he was released from prison. I am not sure if he was being held in a juvenile detention center in Joliet, IL or with the rest of the prison population. I remember the community feared his release back into the community. It was about 6 mos later as I recall, the then 18 yr old killed a young 11 year old boy in the community once again. Now what? The 1st family could console the 2nd family because we gave this young killed another chance to kill again.

I have no doubt that a person can change. I can remember following a story many years ago about a man in prison up for release after having killed as a teenager. I was intrigued by the story because in prison the man had gotten an education and was an entirely different person than the one that entered prison. Still his victim didn't get a second chance. The man could see both sides. The man had found religion in prison and had skills that would have allowed him to make a living outside of prison. That is one of the big issues here. You can release somebody, but can they survive and if not they will harm again.

Our business has hired employees that have spent time in jail and it has worked out o.k. We believe in the second chance, and I have heard first hand all the stories from those with records how hard it is to be treated the same in society again. I would say the parole system is not pretty. It is degrading to the parolee, but then the issue is so many fail.

When I was in high school, another classmate lost his sister to a troubled teen. The young man had been in and out of detention centers mostly related to sex crimes. So can sex perverts be cured? This one killed my friend's 15 yr old sister. Yes, it was a sex crime.

Here is the bottom line for me. For the good of a society as a whole, we will have to accept that we can't fix everybody. Many will fall through the cracks. Many kids today are not wanted and have a lousy home life. We have all seen this. Still, something inside all of us knows from the beginning that killing is wrong.

My neighbor growing up was a cute, small guy that had difficulty learning in school. He was in my homeroom in high school. I knew him since I was in 5th grade. I remember once he told me he had a present for me and to come to his locker. He had stolen about 50 watches and he wanted me to pick which one I would like. I told him stealing was wrong. He just shrugged. I did not turn him in because I wanted him to make the right choice. He got caught with them and thus began his relationship with the law. At around 18, he and some others took the police chief's son beat him to death and put him in a barrel and left him there. The kid didn't die. My cute little friend had turned into a killer. It was hard for me to imagine him doing that. He had done some really kind things for me as a young girl. Anyway before going to prison himself, he was found dead at 20.

I could fill a book about all the stories I know about people hell bent on destruction. We must accept we can't save them all.

Yes RwEvans - you do not deserve any right to freedom. If this was any of your relatives or wife or kids, you might feel differently. You don't deserve that chance. You don't deserve that life. You don't even deserve to be commenting right now on the internet. If you are guilty, you deserve to be locked up in solitary confinement until you die. I have no sympathy and you have no voice.

I'm sorry but if you're a psychopathic monster at 14 capable of this sort of heinous murder, why wouldn't you still be capable of it at 21? at 35? at 50? at 75? or even at 100 years old?

It's not worth risking the life of another innocent person to let you walk free. You want to do something with your life. Do something good for your fellow inmates. Make life in prison better, but you don't get to roam free again.

Science (Psychology) has determined that children know right from wrong at approximately age 8. To imply that these young people did not fully understand the consequences of their actions would be immature. So if they understood their actions, look back at the crimes they committed. Beating someone to death, shooting someone one while they slept, these are crimes that speak about the individual who committed the crime not their age of accountability.

They are truly a monster if in this age of communication, they have not learned from TV, Internet and active discussion in schools, that violent crimes are horrible and come with a heavy consequence, then they are truly beyond rehabilitation.

I can see this kid in the store robbery being given a chance or someone who killed accidentally, but those kids that premeditated murder, or who couldn’t control their own rage and beat a man to death, NO! How can you look at an elderly person sleeping peacefully and point a gun at them and then pull the trigger? At age 14 use a knife to stab someone you disagree with? These crimes speak to the type of person they are and will always be.

Age 14 is a pretty innocent age, they think they know everything and are worried about sports, skateboarding and the opposite sex, NOT deciding who they will kill and rob.

I was a latchkey child and was assaulted by gang and racial violence as a teen. I hated to go home every day after school because of my home environment, but I didn’t commit crimes out of revenge or because of my environment because I was afraid of the consequences and stigma. We all have the ability to draw the line and set boundaries, except these teens. That’s why they should never have freedom. Not because of an eye for an eye, but because society will never be safe with them. They can change and lead a better life in prison for it. Not out of prison.

Sean - well it is a little confusing, the BiPolar GOD of the Old Testament, he was all about revenge. and hating gays.

the new testament, not at all about revenge - instead all about love, and doesnt even talk about homosexuality.

Yet, modern christians crusade against gays...

and then folks like you, want to let murders roam free?

You tell me who's messed up? Non-christian americans...or the bipolar christians who cant figure out what is a worse sin...taking someones life, or loving someone of the same sex.

I mean, jesus after all...was about LOVE, right?

Chris, has anyone ever taught you the meaning of forgiveness?? Here is this man who admits he was wrong and is very remorseful and trying to be a good, functioning member of society. People can change. Yes, he took a life of someone, that won't change. At least he is trying to make right what he did wrong as best he can. Obvisously nothing he does will bring back the life he took. But I don't think he should be categorized with other killers who will never change and have no remorse. If he is not a threat to society, why should he not be given a second chance? Have you never had a second chance at something, even if you weren't worthy? My guess is yes you have. I'm not saying every cold-hearted killer deserves a second chance, but I do think it should be judged by each individual case. If someone proves that they can be a functioning member of society, and not a threat, and genuinely learned their lesson, imo, let them redeem their self.

RW, we are not convinced. You killed someone, end of story. Like other posters, I cannot imagine even thinking about killing someone, let alone actually doing it. Sorry, no sympathy from me. As for the perps highlighted in this story, they are monsters, and old enough to know right from wrong. The age of reason is considered to be around 7. These felons were a lot older than that. I do have a question for you...what could possibly have been your 'excuse' for taking someone's life?????

Once more we see the trappings of sympathy extended to perpetrators of heinous crimes while the memory of the victims is obscured by the passage of time.

Instead of showing us photos such as young little Quantell Lotts smiling sweetly at the camera - why don't you show the crime scene photographs of these folk's victims so that we can better understand just what they have done to put them in their current situation?

oh...too disturbing...I see..........

I think, personally, that part of the problem is that the Justice system is not "blind" as it is supposed to be, that if your family is wealthy, or you are white, if you commit a crime - no matter how horrible, your sentence will be less than that of a child who grew up in a violent household, was probably victimized, didn't do well in school, or was a minority etc. I have made friends with persons who did commit murder, did their time and they were good people - there were "circumstances" to the murder, which lead to a non-life sentence. Children who commit murder are not the norm, I believe that we cannot pigeon hole them the same way - we do need to look at their life, at their parents, etc.

My friend's father was murdered - he was a farmer, had a small dairy farm in New England. EVERY day, when the morning work was finished he would drive his tractor to the middle of his open field (in winter - and that's when it occurred) - he would sit in the tractor and read the newspaper, the tractor was on for heat. The first day of hunting (deer) season came, he was reading his paper, he was shot dead, straight through the window and into his heart). The kid (17) who did it, came to the police station the next day, with his parents AND a lawyer. He first told the police that he was shooting at a deer (red tractor, middle of empty field, engine on, exhaust coming out), then he changed his story to, he just wanted to hit the tractor, he had NO IDEA someone was in it, yet, being very wealthy, he had a high powered rifle with SCOPE..., his parents flew in a team of lawyers, said he was accepted early for college, etc - just a fine upstanding kid (he had friends with him and they all said that they did see the tractor move)....he was RORed, and at trial got 6 months for the death he caused - but they were suspended, if he stayed out of trouble for 5 years the slate would be wiped clean. Race and wealth make a HUGE difference.

My point is that you have to look at each case, you have to give fair punishment across the board - you can't have one defendant with an army of seasoned lawyers devoting all their time to the defendant and another with a legal aid lawyer who barely passed the bar exam and has 200 cases on his desk that he/she must work immediately.

Chris - what about a battered women who shoots her husband dead? Move that thought to a battered or abused child - can they not shoot their abuser? We have all seen or read how CPS fails children in bad homes...

Some children are sociopaths and will never be productive members of society, I do not have a problem locking them up for a heinous crime - justice needs to fair to all who enter the system, I do not think it is fair - the murderer I spoke of, his slick lawyers got the trial moved to a different, non-farming county, etc... is that fair?

As an attorney, I do not personally handle criminal cases, but I have seen and heard enough, including from prison security officers to have formed an opinion that some on this forum obviuosly will not like. I would suggest a sentence of a minimum 20 years, during which the juvenile finishes his/her education. Then, they can go before a review board to be evaluated. During that time, they don't "earn" good time, in that how it is normally used to reduce a sentence or earn privileges, but behavior in prison is a factor in any hearing. Should they qualify for parole, release them, otherwise return them to the prison population. Give them the one chance at 20 years.

In my state, there is no good time earned for a lifer, because there is no parole, and I am not convinced that is correct. I have met some lifers when I was doing some civil work for them, and I believe the ones I was working with actually could reenter society safely. All were young when convicted (early 20's) and all had served over 30 years already.

You do the crime you do the time...period end of story. We have too many fools who are trying wasting tax dollars. If they want to change something hold the parents accountable as well and maybe we get to the root cause...proper parents (regardless of wealth) have a greater chance to raise stable children. i grew up poor and at 10 took something that did not belong to me....my Dad laid the law and put a stop to it and got the belt. Learned my lesson...no stealing...no hurting people...no lying.....be proud...work hard....all else he did not care about.

RW has a good point. What is being done to keep these kids from killing in the first place? I would say not enough since the trend is increasing. We have increasing numbers of latchkey children. Absentee parents, or parents who don't step up to the plate and take responsibility for teaching their children right from wrong and making sure it sticks in their heads. Let alone parents who actually notice their kid is mentally ill and makes sure he/she receives the treatment needed, instead of throwing their hands up in the air and walking away. Where do you think these kids learn these traits from? Their parents, or lack of parents parenting. (Or from the bad parts of society the parents are not shielding them from until they are old enough to understand the big picture.)

Everything you're saying makes sense to an extent.

The problem is that you don't seem to have any remorse for the victims or their families at all.

The fact that you had the opportunity to change, become a better person, turn your life around etc...but can't understand that you should have never been given that chance because you deprived another person of the opportunity to do the same thing...shows that your mentality hasn't changed as much as you'd like to believe.

Basically, you feel that society should give you the same opportunities that you took from someone else.

Totally hypocritical, selfish, and narcissistic.

I don't think i'm lucky, i'm more blessed than anything. And i wasn't trying to change the subject, the point of what i said chris was, parents have to be involved with their kid's lives, but Blind eyes and deaf ears, cannot see nor hear. Let me leave you with this: 2001 my son was born, i had to fight tooth and nail to just be a part of his life, i took his mother to court to jail establish paternty, child support and visitation, she denied i was the father, i didn't, DNA said i was, less than a year later i asked the court to raise the amount of child support i had to pay because of an increase of income...the first man in the United States to do so, 6 months later we were back in court because she was living with a boyfriend who beat her father twice, was accused of sexually assaulting a 14 year girl, charges were dropped because the age of consent in Arkansas at the time was 14 (gross) and she had violated 80% of the other court orders issued in our case, but because i followed the court orders to the letter i was granted full custody. he was 18 months old at the time. My daughter was born (another woman) in 2004, in 2007 the state tried to lower the amount of child support i had to pay each month because i was in college and working only part time, i had to go to court and fight the state and make them raise the amount back to what i had been paying...the first to do so....odd i have a greater moral fiber than most men who are "dead beats"...my wife isn't the mother of either of my kids, so i'm not lucky at all...i am just very "blessed"

It is the DUTY and OBLIGATION of society to take care of those unable to take care of themselves. In some people who are mentally ill the brain has never developed to the point of being able to control a person's actions in a normal way. In people under 26, the brain, and especially the forebrain, where decidions are made and impulses are controlled, is not fully developed. This is precisely why, for example, children and the mentally ill are not allowed to make binding contracts.

This country already incarcerates a greater percentage of its people than any other country in the world --- worse than Stalin's Gulags. Of those incarcerated, the population is grotesquely biased toward incarceration of Blacks and Latinos. After all white is good and black and brown are bad, aren't they? The rationalization that a disproportionate amount of crimes are committed by Blacks is nonsense. Blacks are 15 times as likely to be sentenced to death for the same crime as a white person. An estimated 15% of Blacks on death row are innocent versus an estimated 1.5% of whites/Latinos. That means that every time 7 people are executed, one of them was innocent of the crime. Recidivism in this country is the worst in the world. Conditions in prisons are overcrowded by an average factor of 4 and conditions are truly horrible despite Constitutional prohibitions agaionst cruel and unusual punishment. This isone of the few countries that even permits the death penalty in which so many Americans take strange pride. Maybe something is not working in the system.

Maybe it is time to dump the mythology. There has always been the rationalization that poor people are disproportionately represented in prisons because they do proportionately more crime. But if you look at it objectively, you see that a poor person will go to prison for something that will get you a promotion and a bonus at Goldman Sachs. Prisons were intended to attempt rehabilitation, but not a single prison in the United States has a successful rehabilitatin program. Crimes have even been invented just to put Black people in prison while allowing whites to avoid it. The most notorious was the division of cocaine possession into two separate crimes. Crack cocaine, thought to be associated with poor and Black people was drawing 20 times the sentence that the same amount of powder cocaine, thought to be associated with more affluence and whiteness, though exactly the same drug. That has been finally overturned, but the general mythology behind it is still the dominant force in imprisonment. Social scientists can look at cases without knowing anything about the individuals except the crime and the sentence imposed and show you a neat "bell-shaped double curve." The first and largest peak is for non-whites, then there is a smaller peak for whites. This alone is enought to tell you that punishment is not given with equity.

It costs more to incarcerate a person for a year than to give him a year of college education including tuition, books, fees, room and board and a spending stipend. Our love of incarceration is such that we are willing to pay huge penalties in out taxes in order to dehumanize and degrade other people.

But the issue of the incarceration of certain groups of people is itself extremely immoral. For example, we are the only country in the world who will charge a mother with murder of a child when she is suffering from diagnosed post-partum depression. This is the only country in the world that allows the justice system to medicate a seriously mentally ill person to a semblence of normalcy and they put them on trial so that the jury sees a relatively competent defendant, making the presumption of guilt and the longest possible sentence the most likely. This is the only contry in the world that refuses its judges the ability to exercise compassion or judicial discretion to try to prevent some of the worst judicial abuses. This is the only country that shields its entire law enforcement and judicial system from penalties for gross misconduct.

But the concept of trying to execute or imprison people as young as 9 years old is simply sick. Brains form slowly and a child is still a child. A child is more likely to make bad decisions, such as a decision to text while driving, because their brain is simply not capable of making a fully-informed decision on the matter. The same applies to crimes. Children are very much more susceptible to peer pressure and "pack mentality" and are many times more likely to commit crimes out of a fleeting impulse than an adult. This is not news. There has long been a parallel justice system for children, but that line is being ignored or purposefully blurred.

Our prison sentence needs to be seriously reformed. Some things that would help would be:

1) We need to completely eliminate the for-profit prison system and all prison-associated profit-making activities. Most people do not understand how much money is flowing into for-profit prisons who lobby strongly for longer sentences. It is a huge industry that we do not need.

2) We need to stop incarcerations that simply are defiant of the Constitution's ban on cruel and inhumane punishment. Letting our incarcerations be driven by hatred and racism is just plain and simply wrong. If a judge cannot secure a reasonable probability that a person convicted of a crime will not be accomodated in a prison that is not abover its designed capacity, they the judge should be able to be able to deal with sentencing from a practical and commonsense position.

3) We need to treat those convicted with some degree of human dignity. Why would anyone think, for example that four baloney sandwiches and 30 oz of Kool-Aid a day is okay as long as you give the prisoner a vitamin pill daily. Overcrowding is of nightmarish proportions and getting worse and more and more reasons are being found to imprison people. But the same people wo call for stricter laws, zero tolerance, elimination of parole, and longer sentencesare also NIMBY when it comes to building more facilities.

4) Now that corporations are officially "people", we need to treat them as such. If a poor black person spends 4 years in prison for stealing a $300 watch, is it right that a Goldman Sachs executive who steals billions from its "muppets" whould not even be charged with a criminal offense. It is a huge double standard.

5) Just as a couple of hundred years ago the English Common Law specified that people who commit "crimes" involving only money should not go to prison at all. This was, just as with slavery, a change that has taken hold in the world, but left the USA as the last country in the world to have debtors' prisons. Bankruptcy is not a reason to put people in prison, but we were stil doing it until very recently. We need to change the way that financial crimes are sentenced from the person who committed the theft to the severity of damage to others. The longer sentences should be for those doing the greatest damage to people --- such as Citibank as just one example.

6) We need to stop imprisonment for victimless crimes. Putting people in prioson for things like prostitution, simple minor drug possession, etc where no individual had complained of being harmed by the criminal process. If you want topunish people for these sorts of things, at least have them do community service such as picking up trash from roadsides. As much as possible, convicted people, should be sentenced just like GW Bush was: He was sentenced to 800 hours of community service and two years probation for cocaine possession. Upon meeting certain conditions his conviction was expunged so that he did not have to live with the stigma. Would a poor Latino have received such a light sentence as Bush did?

7) We need to get our "prison hands" dirty and try to give every prisoner a shot at rehabilitation. As just one example, a goal of all jail sentences over 1 year should be to make sure that the prisoner can read and has some sort of vocational skillset. This happensin a few states, but not in most.

8) Currently several states have laws that forbid a person on death row to introduce any new evidence once they have been convicted. This is still coming up over and over as prisoners who were convicted before DNA evidence was allowed in court, but cannot intrduce DNA evidence that someone else was the rapist. Texas just executed a person where they were over 100 points of fabricated evidence, suppression of defense witnesses, failure to respond to disclosure, etc. The parole board, the presiding judge for the trial, the prosecutor, and even Amnesty International appealed to Texas' dim bulb governor, but he ignored them because he was running for the GOP presidential nomination. That is not justice, it is murder!

I am not against the deat penalty or long sentences. But, because the justice system is so much biased agaonst Blacks and Latinos, I cannot condone the execution of inocent people. I cannot be proud of a system that sentences criminals disproportionately by race for exactly the same crime.

Chris - what about a battered women who shoots her husband dead? Move that thought to a battered or abused child - can they not shoot their abuser? We have all seen or read how CPS fails children in bad homes...

These are not instances where killing another human is acceptable. The battered woman stayed with the abusive man of her own volition; do not quote any pop-psychology at me that claims she was unable to leave him. There are authorities that can remove abused children from dysfunctional homes. We live in a civilized society in which any reasonably functional member can easily live his life without having to kill another person. Anyone who doesn't seem to be able to manage even that basic requirement does not deserve to be part of our society and as such should be removed.

The higher degrees of murder should be one and done. Never again to see the light of day. You had your chance, you failed. I don't agree with executions however, as they end the suffering, and these people need to suffer everyday of their miserable lives for the crimes they commit. Then our system might be more of a deterrent.

Black Kettle & Sand Creek...lest we forget

I think, personally, that part of the problem is that the Justice system is not "blind" as it is supposed to be, that if your family is wealthy, or you are white, if you commit a crime - no matter how horrible, your sentence will be less than that of a child who grew up in a violent household, was probably victimized, didn't do well in school, or was a minority etc

uh...I think you should reread the article - looks like a few white kids in there

you might need to modify your hypothesis, my friend...perhaps it is a function of repeat violent behavior, poor parenting and lack of a strong moral compass rather than an particular bias in our justice system that results in so many minorities in prison

Peace...while I agree with most of your statement, you state that kids today experience violence, drugs and sex at a much earlier age "than ever before". Completely incorrect. It is a relatively modern idea that children aren't put to work, ride along side in battle, have children as early as possible. I think you are really looking at just recent history, and even that is a glossed-over take on reality.

Chris - right, because we all know that cops NEVER beat their wives - where is she supposed to go?

The battered woman stayed with the abusive man of her own volition; do not quote any pop-psychology at me that claims she was unable to leave him.

I won't - the point would be wasted on you entirely.

no chris my children were born since getting out of jail, and how is taking responsibility for my kids make me an awful person?

RW

Read some of your posts and if half of what you posted is true you have changed the direction of your life. Your efforts for this are to be applauded. The stain will remain but your actions moving forward will at least remove part of it. Keep up the good work.

Chris, if you read what i wrote you would see i have full custody of my son, which means he isn't fatherless, it means i have "custody" and i have regular vistation with my daughter, are you just not even reading the posts anymore? i've heard of selective hearing, first for selective reading..oh well.

I don't know about the rest of you holier-than-thou types (there's a wonderful word--"empathy"), but I can't even identify with the person I was at 14. At 14, very complex things are going on, both psychologically and socially. There is incomplete frontal lobe (brain) development, and if you start out with a stupid kid (almost all murderers on death row dropped out of school before 9th grade) in an oppressive social situation, with an intense desire to achieve an identity (and while probably on narcotics) bad stuff happens.

Or did you all miss the recent "Kody 2012" coverage. Do you hold those children accountable for being forced to kill their parents? Young children are constantly recruited and used by gangs to do their dirty work in THIS country, from being assassins to runners to watchers.

We call them children for a reason. Obviously any 14-year-old is old enough to know right from wrong, and it's wrong to let them loose at the magic age of 18, but also obviously, life imprisonment (or death) is a completely inappropriate penalty.

The stain will remain but your actions moving forward will at least remove part of it

No. Nothing will remove that stain. He killed another human being intentionally. No action he takes now can ever make up for that. I don't know why so many people don't understand this.

RwEvans I for one will commend you for making the changes in your life. I did my dissertation on the maturity of the human brain. Do you know how the legal age of 18 came about? It started during the civial war, all 18 year old boys had to register for the draft so after the war the 18 year olds fought to be considered adults and given the rights of adults. Why 18, they figured out that 18 year olds were easier to convince to kill and could go long hours without sleep. The actual male brain does not stop maturing until mid to late 20's.

These kids could very well be products of being born killers (sociopaths) there are such things. Also any such tendency would certainly be magnified by the wildness in our schools where discipline, like the principal smacking with a paddle, are forbidden. The poor childhood BS is magnified by the liberal society that keeps insisting that the kids be put back with thier "natural" parents who themselves are bad people who had a bad childhoos. Boo Hoo, Boo Hoo. If you kill someone, whether you are 10 or 65, it deserves a life sentence. This is the real world and this kind of thing happens more and more because kids see so many get light sentences for really bad crimes and think they won't get life because they are juvies. The gangs send the young ones to do crimes for this reason. They tell them you won't get much time because you are a juvenile. Time for the non-liberal grown ups in our society to re-take control. And no they do not deserve to get their sentences reduced. If a dog kills someone it is just put down period. So a life sentence for what appears to be born killers is kind.

@RW, I commend you for putting your story out there and I cannot even begin to imagine how the hard criticisms are affecting you. Speaking from someone whose has lost to brothers, whose killers have not been caught and highly doubt that they will be caught- it still isn't up to me as a person or part of this society to say whether someone lives or dies. I do not support the death penalty. If the state kills the murderer it still isn't going to bring my brothers back. I also do not think that it is my place to say that you do not deserve to have a second chance either because the last that I read, you never disclosed on the circumstances of your case, so it is not up to me or ANYONE else to say that you do not deserve to be where you are.

See this is my problem, people enter into jail for whatever crime and as soon as they serve the punishment they are still prosecuted; which also leads into many offenders re-offending. Some people do not deserve to be released from prison because of the crimes that they have done, but if they have served their time and has shown remorse for their crimes then let them live.

I do not know what demons that RW has to face on a daily basis. I do not even want to imagine that. But I however cannot call myself a God-fearing, Christian woman and continue to condemn him because I am not God, nor do I know what God has planned for him on his Judgment Day. So my question to many of you is, who are you to say what someone deserves and doesn't deserves. No, it doesn't take away from what he did. He has paid his price to society(spending 14 years in jail for his crime) and I pray that he will continue to do something positive in his life.

P.S. And by the way I know that someone out there is going to say, well how can you say that when you had two brothers murdered? It is the same thing. If they end up being arrested and go to trail whatever sentence that the judge enact and they serve out their sentences, then it isn't my place to further condemn them because once they close their eyes and leave this world, they still got to deal with God and I am content with that.

ty bruce, and chris my son and daughter are healthy happy kids with a life filled with people that love them, i wish more kids had that opportunity. those who don't are the ones we read about. Take care.

Murder is murder. Lock these worthless thugs up and throw away the key.

O.K., fine...let 'em out when they're 70. They can get their second chance then, and should be grateful for the opportunity.

RW - you thinking you are blessed, is why I dont believe in GOD.

God apparently blesses murderers?

kinda sick.

The only person here who is SPECIFICALLY attacking another person with words- without knowing all the

circumstances is you Chris-629698 ( and now Jessica). Perhaps you should read NV's Code of Honor - you do not attack others personally. Calling someone "awful," "screwed up" "murderer" etc. violates NV policy.

RW - has been polite through all your hateful posts (good for you RW, I know that my patience is wearing thin)

Jessica - it is not whether you believe in a god or not, it's if you believe in our Judicial System. Once someone has served their time, they are not a "murderer," by law - in your heart they may be, but not by the Judicial System.

everyone has a right to believe what they want and i do respect everyone's point of view Black, the idea is to provoke thought not change anyone's mind.

Prison changes people. Some for the better some for the worse. The idea that "I am not the same person I was when I committed the crime" is a bunch of cr@p. Yes, you are that person. You may be sorry for what you did. More likely you are sorry you got caught. If it takes prison to force a positive change in your ways you asked for it. A person that commits a murder while committing a adult offense like killing the clerk while robbing the store deserves life. A person that plans a murder deserves it. I'll admit that the young people in this article were probably poor or from lower economic families. If they were rich they would never have gotten life. But that is a different issue.

1.12 RwEvans (Comment collapsed by the community)I did 14 years in prison for murder and assault

I find it very interesting that Rob Blagoyavich just started his "14 year sentence" today for, I guess, what you could call "white collar" crimes. So this opens another can-of-worms with the question of: "Was your sentence too light or is his too harsh?"

While I don't necessarily agree with either,

Chris-629698 Comment collapsed by the community

I did 14 years in prison for murder and assault

So you intentionally took the life of another human being. You should have been executed.

or the short sentence, I feel, that you got, you did do your time. What more could be asked or expected of you than to turn you life around for the better?

As far as these "kids" go, I can understand if they ran somebody over accidentaly with a car or something of that nature but at 14 years old I knew the difference between an accident and pre-meditated murder.

Incidentally, I find it rather interesting how quickly, in the story, that the "Constitutionality" of something comes out while not having trouble with trampling others' Constitutional Rights at the same time.

There's nothing "hateful" about my posts. I don't hate RW. There is nothing hateful about telling an admitted murderer that he is a bad person. There's nothing hateful about telling a person whose kids don't have a functional family he is a bad parent. These are just facts.

@Chris-629698, @Jessica-1170252, @Jessica-1170252

I would wager a $1000 that if you found out that RwEvans killed a drug dealer, a gang member or someone else who you'd deemed "worthless" you probably wouldn't have much of a problem with him.

@RWEvans

I commend you for your turnaround. And I commend the judge for giving you an opportunity to prove yourself. I'm firmly against life sentences for minors. I do believe, however, that SOME children should (based on the crime) be tried as adults but have the POSSIBILITY for parole after an amount of years determined by the judge based on their individual crimes and the circumstance surrounding them.

I know I will be persecuted in this thread just as you were. But it is what it is. There are many people who feel as you do, otherwise this wouldn't be going to the Supreme Court.

I have never committed any crime, nor has my teenage son who will be going off to college in the fall. I'm very proud of the child I raised. But I understand that he needed my guidance in order to stay on the right path.

In truth, my best friend's husband served around 11 years in jail for accessory to a murder committed when he was in high school. But if someone knew nothing about his past, they would never think he couldn't been a part of such an atrocity. He's a college graduate and has 2 kids in college himself. He has taken full responsibility for his crime and has raised great children. He's a family man. Yes, he denied someone else that right to do the same, but I truly believe he is changed man and would never make those reckless decisions he made as a teen.

Good luck to you and thank you for telling your story to all those that hate you.

Hear, hear, Black Kettle.

I've read this whole thread to follow the back-and-forth between Chris and RW, with the occasional outbursts from Jessica, and have wondered when the tides would begin to turn.

Observation: While Chris is over here being a self-righteous jerk, RW is responding civilly and politely.

Fact: RW committed murder, served time and has moved on with his life.

Fact: His victim and the victim's family are forever impacted by RW's action.

Fact: He is raising two children under the circumstances that have come about.

Everything else is subjective and, frankly, moot.

I just don't get it, Chris. Who are you to judge anyone else? You've proven that one doesn't have to commit murder to be an insensitive, ruthless person. And, just in case you're thinking of bringing up the "fact" that murder is unforgivable, which we've all heard about a dozen times now, remember that your opinions aren't worth more than anyone else's.

Children need time to mature, they just don't have the brain function like an adult, or some adults, I would say case by case, but all children should get a parole hearing. Other crimes that so not involve murder still get stiff punishments for children, which is wrong, they should be treated like children because they are. People have to constantly correct children, some people parents don't even bother. I would even raise the driving age, they just don't make good decisions.

I think it depends on the crime. Beating a man with a baseball bat and burning him alive- desesrves life in prison. The kid is most likely a sociopath and if released is very likely to kill again.

But the kid who was walking through the projects with 2 older boys when they decided to rob a store, maybe you could argue that it was a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. A 14 year old kid may not be capable of standing up to 2 older boys. Perhaps he feared if he didn't go along with it that he would be killed, we don't really know the circumstances. It doesn't sound like he was the one that pulled the trigger, his lawyer says he was only watching the door. The police say he went inside and told the clerk "We ain't playing!" maybe he was trying in his own way to impress upon the clerk a warning so he wouldn't get shot by these kids, IDK. I'm not saying he shouldn't be punished for his part, but it seems like a life sentence with no chance for parole should be reserved for the person who actually killed the guy.

I do believe in forgiveness. I do believe in mercy. But that needs to be tempered with our need to protect society. So long as a reasonable person can say that someone is no longer a threat to society and they have shown remorse and an understanding of why what they did was so wrong, I believe we should try to rehabilitate them and give them a second chance.

There but for the grace of God go I. Not everyone is lucky enough to have had parents who cared enough to instill morals and discipline, not everyone was born into a society that wasn't run by drug lords and gangs, not everyone had loving families surrounding them.

I wonder about the "whys" here. Why did that 14 year old girl kill her grandfather and aunt. Had they been abusing her in some way? If we found out that the grandfather had been raping her since she was 8 and the aunt knew about it would we feel differently about her killing them? I wonder...

I guess what I'm saying is that arbitrary rules about sentencing don't really make sense to me. Judges should be able to use their discretion when sentencing any criminal. They should be allowed to "judge" what an appropriate sentence is and "judge" later if the convict has turned around and earned an early release.

I am quite shocked by the vitriol and hate in some of these comments. So many Christians forget that we care called to forgive one another as Jesus forgives us. Too many of these posts seem to be seeking vengence rather than justice.

Matthew 18:21-22
Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?" Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.
Luke 6:37
Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
Matthew 6:14-16
For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Chris- you should put yourself in check, you have no right to judge , you have the right to comment but by judging you are showing ignorance and the lack of compassion that could have driven some of these young murders to their fate.

Annnnnd that convinces me that Chris has nothing worthwhile to say.

Nothing has been said about the irrelevance of age. 500 years ago, 13 and 14 year olds got married, had children, got jobs, raised a family. Today age is not something mystical. Gee 16 years, 364 days is a juvenile.

The utter stupidity is completely ridiculous. These teens probably have long juvenile rap sheets, that can not be disclosed, WHAT GARBAGE! There are terrible people. Communities and families have no control over them. They have to be warehoused. They say they want a second chance for what? Who is going to want to hire a murderer? You can't turn your back on them.

My children are about 35 and have businesses. They will only hire friends of friends or those who are personally known to family, relatives and close friends.

I hired a secretary who was a daughter of a wonderful woman who was my secretary for many years. Brilliant, quick witted great woman. She up and left me just when I was going to give her a bonus.

Saying a 14 year old who deliberately murders someone else deserves a second chance, AT WHAT?????

At killing another person? The prisons are overflowing with hardened convicts. For example, the man who walked into a Florida convenience store and wanted money and took a child as hostage and was killed by an off duty cop entering the store.

I looked up the felon and he had at least 10 crimes to his credit in different states and you know he got away with a hell of a lot more he was not caught and convicted of.

Yes it is sad and terrible, but we breed like rabbits. 7 Billion of us and there is no community pressure to keep these people in line. There is the very alarming statistic that 60% of black children are raised in a one parent home. IF the parent works, then who takes care of the child?????

We have lost our moral compass. We have ridiculous schools. The teachers run the schools with their unions and the last thing on their mind is turning out good citizens. Obummer doesn't give a shi*. He hasn't done anything in 3 years.

You want to keep this young people out of jail, then you get on them and teach, train and force them to be good citizens and there aren't enough people to do that.

So when you catch bastards like these, the only solution is to warehouse them and make examples.

Who is going to give these murderers another chance??????? Anyone out there wants to raise their hands?????

66% in this poll say yes. Why not life for a 10 year old? Why not a 6 y/o? Society is sicker than the child that commits the heinous crime.

It seems rather insidious to me that a society thinks it is right to imprison for life, those who fall in it's category of children, when completely ignoring those imprisoned children's parents/guardians. Just because it is assumed that those children have genetic defects. Well, I am sorry but your little genetic defect is your responsibility, and anyone who believes the genetic crap is lucky to see myself and others paying the taxes because of the social burden you place upon us.

I do believe that there is an age at which children are not fully aware and responsible for what they're doing. And I believe that varies with the individual. Some boys are very mature and intelligent at eleven years of age. Others don't get to that point until later. I personally think it would be rare for a child under eight to ten years of age to be fully responsible for their actions. One thing we have learned is that a person is who they are for two reasons-- First of all genetics come into play and then you have the environment. That's why you have some boys committing violent acts while others do not, even though they were brought up in the same environment. It seems that once a person has reached between eight and ten years of age that they should know the difference between right and wrong, though, and should be held accountable for their actions. We can all understand children getting into mischief and we can forgive it but to me MURDER is never forgiveable. At the very least, once a person has reached ten years of age if they murder then they should pay the penalty, life in prison. I think that the murderer is different than the rest of us. He's wired differently. But it doesn't matter if it's genetics or environment or both--to the victim it doesn't matter. A lot of people talk about forgiveness and it's a beautiful word. Sadly we cannot afford to be so altruistic when confronted with evil. Evil doesn't appreciate forgiveness. Evil sees forgiveness as weakness. Evil will strike again in one manner or another. It's very nihilistic to think this way but the very nature of life forces one to be this way. And we all know that life isn't fair.

Todd said this:

Science (Psychology) has determined that children know right from wrong at approximately age 8.

Really? Where did you find this? People up to the age of about 25 (some younger, some a bit older) do not really understand the consequences of their behavior. That is, they might know that what they are doing is "wrong," but they don't understand the consequences--life in prison, death by execution, permanent record that prevents one from voting. This is why college kids do such particularly wacky things.

The age at which children understand "right" from "wrong," and understand that people who are dead, are dead permanently varies depending on how they are tested and what one is looking at. The age found, also, is an average and not an absolute. At the age of 14, there is actually a good bit of question as to whether or not the child genuinely made a rationale choice to engage in the behaviors.

Still, life in prison isn't really for "punishment"--and it shouldn't be; there are better punishments. It is to protect us against people who really cannot be trusted to run around loose. The girl who helped to execute her grandparents--sure, lock her up for life. I don't ever want to live next door to her. The little boy who waited outside a business while it was robbed and someone shot? Why the heck is that child even in prison for life? No one should be in prison for life for that--not a child, and not an adult. Convicted, yes--in prison for life, no.

It makes sense to review all convictions of a life-without-parole sentence. People who are in jail for life, without parole, are going to cost us a heck of a lot of money over the course of their lives. I don't want to be shelling out that kind of money for anyone who got an excessive sentence. I think that the little boy who helped to rob the store and stood outside must have had a really bad attorney--that's a ridiculous sentence. Of course he should be in jail for a good long time--but many people who do much more heinous things (like beating a spouse to death) get far lower sentences. This is particularly the case since he probably wasn't old enough to understand the ramifications of his decision.

But, many of these "kids" seem to deserve to be locked away permanently--I feel safer knowing that they are there. In fact, it is my opinion that prison should only be for those who need to be locked up permanently, and that we need to find other solutions for those who are going to get out eventually (but still represent a threat), and particularly for those who don't represent a threat at all.

For example, a white collar criminal who represents no threat should be working with the inmates who do represent a threat--making sure those inmates learn to read, write, and get a skill with which they might be able to make a living. Bernie Madoff should be tutoring under-class inmates that he probably doesn't want to even be around; there aren't enough people who are willing to risk their lives to do such tutoring, and as far as I'm concerned, Madoff deserves that little job. Those who aren't smart enough to tutor or so forth should be doing work--building hiking trails, cleaning up roadsides, cleaning up "ghost towns" and so forth. I know that they already do most of the work keeping the prison clean and repaired, and sometimes they work on prison farms--but I'd like some generalized good for communities.

So, my standard is not so much whether or not these children understood what they are doing as whether or not the crime was so heinous that I don't want to live next door to that child, ever. It appears to me from this list that many of the children still represent a threat while others shouldn't even have been sentenced so harshly in the first place. I'd rather that these people worked towards getting a better review of life-without-parole sentences to make sure we aren't wasting money on those who didn't do anything that horrid in the first place and really could take care of themselves and represent no more danger than the average neighbor.

But, no, the little girl who killed her grandparents? Yeah, leave her where she is. If she wants to make a contribution, then she can start writing books or learn art so she can sell her creations and contribute the profits to good causes; she can tutor other inmates; she can work on a prison farm. A person who is in prison is not an individual who "never sees the light of day"--s/he is a person who is in a closed community where his/her options for harming others are severely limited. But, her ability to do good hasn't really been harmed--she can help those in her present community, and stay the heck where she is.

RWEvans,

What were the circumstances of your crime that landed you in jail for 14 years? I would like to know to better understand your argument? What exactly did you do? Was it a car accident or did you break into someones home and mutilate and murder them? I think there are different levels of heinous crimes and should be punishable based on that level. If you were high on drugs and killed someone in a car wreck, then your punishment fits the crime, but if you broke into someones home and beat them with a bat and then burnt their remains in a fire I feel that is deserving of a much higher level of punishment.

I just want to start by saying that I do agree that some of these crimes are unforgivable and some of these children should never again see the light of day. The majority of you, especially Chris make the unsound argument that "You took someone's life so you don't deserve your own." If this is going to be our rationale than it should be applied universially. When the police accidently shoot an unarmed victim or some overzealous citizen kills someone they wrongfully believed was doing a crime, they should be sentenced to life in prison as well. Now I know there might not have been malice behind what they did, but Im sure that's little consolation to their family. Look at Shawn Bell or the poor kid killed by the cop in Oakland. These men will never get to experience the beauty of life, yet their killers are walking free or doing a short 4year bid. These cops took an innocent life and whether they intented to do it or not, that person is dead, so by your logic and thought those cops should also be exectuted or serve life in prison, should they not? Just recently in Florida a neighborhood watch leader shot a poor kid walking back to his father's house with a pack of skittles in his pocket. That man wasn't even arrested but Im sure that all of you would agree that he should be executed for what he did, do you not? Chris would argue that there are no mitigating circumstances when it comes to taking a life so why is it so often that the police, drunk drivers, or some dumb kids playing with a gun rarely catch a sentence and when they do it's only for a few years?

Look I have done a lot of thinking on this and here is my opinion based on being locked-up in my twenty's. So Yes as I said I got into some pretty bad trouble as a young adult, I will not tell you the charges because that just does not matter, what matters is that I have done time. Here is what is wrong with the American justice system; just because you are locked behind bars does not mean it is punishment, what I mean is that most inmates still get to socialize with others, get to go to work and still can get whatever drugs they may want. Oh yes, now as a convict you are suppose to be given a certain amount of time on a computer to get on Facebook, check your emails, how ridicules is that. Here is how we actually detour and punish criminals, we need to sentence them to hard time no tv, computers or drugs just a room and time with one hour out a day. This would also combat all the violencein our prisons as there would be no contact between inmates; it would also make the guards job safer. Some of you will say that is destrbing but I will tell you when you are put in prison over and over and still commit crimes while in prison that is what is disturbing. It is also disturbing that most inmates have more freedoms than there victims. So lets stop thinking of how comfortable we can make a convict and see how uncomfortable we can make them this is what will change a convicts mind before he commits his next crime he will think S*** it might not be worth it, I will really be locked-up. I know there are you Lib's that will say many came from a bad home and have learning disability's and are not responsible! Well I call BS on that as I too came from a bad home were I was abused and I had learning disability's; That doesn't mean that I did not now right from wrong because I did as most do. When I was locked up I thought to myself is this where you want to spend your life my answer was no but some convicts answer is yes it is not that bad being locked-up. Should we give these guys a second chance because they where kids at the time, absolutely not. If you do it for them than all child criminals will be wanting the same favorable treatment. When they didn't give there victims any favorable treatment quit the opposite. After I made the decision the last time that I was not going to keep going to jail the rest of my life, I went back to school and now have my masters in mechanical engineering and actually contribute to society with a great job, and a wife of 16 years now.

There are times when ignorance and intelligence walk hand in hand.

DocHolliday-2979123

"She was 14 when she helped her boyfriend kill her grandfather and aunt in Birmingham by stabbing and shooting them and then setting them ablaze. Jones also tried to kill her sister, 10, prosecutors said."

Anybody in their right mind, knowingly commiting a crime of this magnitude regardless of age should pay the price. I would even go further and say, they need to be excuted!!!

"The Equal Justice Initiative says the now 22-year-old has turned her life around and is deserving of a chance at freedom"

What about the victims who will never have a chance of freedom?

Pay for your crime...end of story!

So if a 8 or 9 yr old did that, you would put them in the same mold as all the rest ?

everyone has a right to believe what they want and i do respect everyone's point of view Black, the idea is to provoke thought not change anyone's mind.

Very well stated, RW. I didn't read your posts and come to the conclusion that you were trying to change people's mind - as you said, your posts are to provoke thought. I just think it is rather hypocritical and rude for people to attack you, without actually knowing you, the circumstances, etc.

In terms of provoking thought, I can see by so many negative posts why many prisoners who are released cannot find a job and go back to what they did before (stealing, drugs, whatever). It is a harsh reality that even if you did your time - even if it was not murder - people are not likely to give an ex-prisoner a fair shake out in the real world. I think that is a huge problem and does correlate to recidivism.

From reading Chris's post something tells me he is no more than a posting troll. Chris really you should move to an isolated area where you can live your perfect life away from all others.

I think it's interesting that after all the years and cliches about how all murderers say they're innocent, etc., that these young people in jail are going "i'm changed! i've matured! i deserve a second chance" and people are falling for it.

of course they're going to say that, it's in their interests. obviously they haven't grown up that much. I don't see any of them saying "what i did was horribly wrong, i probably deserve to be here, but i would appreciate at least a chance at parole, a chance to prove that i have learned from what i did and can rise above it." they aren't taking responsibility for their crime, they're just whining about how it's unfair to them. very mature.

most crimes that occur when a kid probably didn't really realize the magnitude of it, or it was an accident or whatever, are not tried as adults. the ones who are tried as adults are the ones who commit horrific crimes and show no remorse. sometimes people can be rehabilitated, sometimes they can't. the only way their youth played a part is the "invincibility" factor - they thought they could get away with it and face no consequences, and that didn't pan out like they expected. once they learn differently, are we to feel sorry for them?

I'm guessing that the "equality" law firm that is representing these kids is really ok with their crimes- as long as the states holding them keep paying the firm millions to defend the perps.

Seems pretty clear to me how to deal with young perps:

1. ANY premeditation of murder = no parole

2. ANY sociopathic actions (you shot him, so you then hacked him apart and disposed of him) = no parole

3. You were commiting a crime with your friends, when one pulled out a gun and shot the clerk = Long, hard time, with the chance of parole.

4. You were commiting a crime with your friends, when one pulled out a gun and shot the clerk- then you found another clerk in the back, shot them, stole their car and lit the store on fire = no parole.

Too bad reasonable logic can't be applied to the justice system. For all the crap we give other countries about how cruel they are, only in America is our legal system so ball-less that we'll continue to advocate/sympathise for a murderer once they are found guilty. Over "there" they'd have the perp by sundown and they'd be dead. Sometimes clean and easy isn't such a bad path.

Chris 62 - Apparently though, you have an ax to grind over this subject. Care to fess up on what drives that? Rw has told his story - and sounds like someone whose had a lot of therapy.

Those kids in the story were not all beyond redemption - possibly. Like the kid who would not go in the store, but his friend shot someone during a robbery. The two poor whites who murdered - not apparent how much premeditation there - one of them looks batsh!t crazy - if premeditated, I'm not sure about them. The kid who stabbed a STEP brother - have to wonder the stress level in a combined family and level of supervision for a crime of passion like that (my brother's student was being sodomized by his "big brother"). But the female who planned out the murders AND tried to kill a 10 year old - yikes, sounds mentally ill. For PEDOPHILES, nope - tons of research shows they can NEVER be "fixed".

A poster who noted the poor - and that is regardless of ethnicity - are in jail more and get longer sentences - can anyone deny this happens? The famous case will, for a long time, have OJ as the poster child for that, but most adults can acknowledge that money equals better representation.

So if a 8 or 9 yr old did that, you would put them in the same mold as all the rest ?

Yes. If you have an 8 or 9 year old who can plan to murder and set on fire her own grandmother and aunt, chances are, it'd probably be better if the kid wasn't around anymore.

OK- I have read all of the vitriol, and I fully understand everyone's position. My position is more nuanced. There are multiple factors that need to be considered:

First, are the detention facilities that these offenders housed in actively working towards real rehabilitation? If we just throw them in a hole and forget about them, then the possibility of improvement is not likely. If we make the effort to truly change their minds with professional help, then we need to analyze their impact on the greater society and make a rational decision on our collective safety which might result in a graduated re-introduction into society.

Second, what environment did the criminal grow up in? Can the environmental predisposition to violence be reversed through the hard work of psychiatric counseling, or are they truly hopeless despite our best efforts to change them?

Third, we MUST consider the age at which the crime was committed. I do know that the way I thought and acted at 14 years old is drastically different from the way I thought and acted at 20. Don't you agree that you were a little nutty as your hormones first kicked in and that you reclaimed your sanity a few years later?

Look, we need to consider a multitude of factors in these cases. Just taking the position that "well they killed someone so screw them for life" is ignorant. I do agree that with earlier posts that we need to clear out non-violent criminals from our prisons to make room for the true threats to society, and perhaps some of these juvenile criminals do belong in jail for life. But we must act rationally, and delve into the gray areas to work towards their capacity for rehabilitation. If we can't help them change into productive, non-violent members of society- they do the life sentence. If we can make a difference, and let's not forget that the possibility of future freedom can be a great motivator, we need to consider that as well. Inflexibility is the trademark of ignorance. I think that we are better than that.

Unless he's mentally ill, RwEvan will have to deal with his conscience every day. To be honest, if left to my own devices, I'd rather die than live with that.

Where was the conscience here? I was not near perfect when I was 16, but the thought of killing someone with my own hands made me feel quite uncomfortable. Actually, that goes for as far back as I can remember even when I was little. There's no way I would have been able to do it. I think the same could be said for most people. But then there's this:

"...when he and a 16-year-old friend, Colby Smith, fought with a drunken neighbor and bludgeoned the 52-year-old man with a baseball bat. They set his home on fire, leaving the man to die in the blaze."

Because when everyone is 16 they want to beat a man until he's helpless and then BURN HIM ALIVE right??? Anyone? Kinda reminds me of Hills have Eyes.

If they can't have a conscience while beating a man to the point where he can't get out of his own home as it is set ablaze when could they possible have one?

If these "children" and their brains are not fully developed then can we simply abort them...maybe that should be the abortion cut off...the 45th trimester

at 14, they know right from wrong. They are psychologically unbalanced, and deviant. The only way I would say that should be let out is if they are sterilized.
Not one of these cases sounds like something that was just a bit of harmless mischief that went out of control. We don't let dogs who bite people or have rabies live.
If the death penalty is out of the picture, life without parole is the only way to keep these people away from the rest of society. There is nothing cruel or unusual about it.

Chris-

I am getting a little tired of seeing your remarks. Who are you to pass such harsh judgments off on anyone? RW, has paid the penalty that was enacted by a jury of his peers, and he has served his time. How dare you say that he doesn't deserve to have the life that he has when you do not even know the level of the crime itself. People are arrested and released daily for vehicular homicide, dui, manslaughter, and unintentionally death. So are you saying that these people also do not deserve the opportunity to have a second chance at life. People in this country always want to say to an ex-offender get a job or find a place in society so that you will not end back in jail. But how can they when it is people out here like you that will forever be there judge and because you think that they shouldn't be released when you do not even know the details of the crime. Please get off of your high horse. The point of prison is "suppose" to be rehabilitation. For some it works, others it doesn't. For those that it has worked on, it isn't fair nor is it right for you to keep condemning them without know their circumstances. You are not God-therefore you are not in a position to place such harsh judgments on anyone, regardless of what they have done.

I am getting a little tired of seeing your remarks.

So don't read them.

you are not in a position to place such harsh judgments on anyone

Better hope I don't end up on your jury.

RW, has paid the penalty that was enacted by a jury of his peers

Juries don't sentence; they determine culpability. Judges sentence.

Wow! What an interesting discussion here. I was somewhere in the middle with regards an opinion on the subject of how much punishment these convicted children should receive. Now thanks to Chris, I have come off the fence. Chris, that's way too much anger and remember that life is not always black and white...there are some grey areas.

RwEvans, congratulations on turning your life around. I wish you all the best.

Thanks for the intelligent debates by Edwina Patrices Tilmon, Black Kettle, Monkey Money, Casandra and others. AQM23, that was an excellent observation and it mirrored mine. You all saved me some typing. :)

Here's a group I think a bunch of you folks could learn a thing or two from: http://www.mvfr.org/

"Founded in 1976, Murder Victims’ Families for Reconciliation (MVFR) is a national organization of family members of victims of both homicide and executions who oppose the death penalty in all cases. MVFR includes people of many different perspectives. Because violent crime cuts across a broad spectrum of society, our members are geographically, racially and economically diverse."

Oh, and with post #1.128, when he stated

"And, just in case you're thinking of bringing up the "fact" that murder is unforgivable, which we've all heard about a dozen times now, remember that your opinions aren't worth more than anyone else's."

Yes they are. I'm more intelligent than most people.

Chris-629698 revealed his true identity: troll. It would behoove you all to stop feeding the troll.

In many cases the jury is given the desicion to decide between death and prison, so you're not 100% right on that last point. I also don't think anyone would have to worry about you being on their jury considering it is very clear that you have lost any ability to think rationally and would enter the courtroom with so many bais and preconcieved notations that you would most likely be the first one removed from the jury pool. You obviously have some kind of ax to grind and maybe you should be reminded that vengance and justice are not the same thing. Oh and one more thing. In your early post you said that you recieved your selective service card a month before 9/11, but I hope you're aware that there has not been a draft nor will there be in the near future, so I'm not really sure how that would be bad timing or how it would even be relevant

I think many of these cases should be reviewed. People can change over time and if we would believe they couldn't why would we put them in prison in the first place? Kids make mistakes. It's easy for many people here to put a quick judgement from their air conditioned home offices with high speed internet because they have never been in an uncomfortable environment. It seems to me that many people read the story and come to a conclusion within in 5 seconds without knowing the whole story behind a person. Sometimes it matters to understand why something has happened.

Luckily, our judges are smarter than you are and typically take more time than that to come to a conclusion and judgement.

Well Chri I agree I hope that if I ever had a jury trial against me that you are not on it. I really do disagree with a lot of what you have to say. RW has comitted a crime and paid for it by going to jail. He admitted to continually pay for it today by his guilt. He is trying to do the right thing for his children. The mother that walked out of the childs life is at faut or not wanting to be in the childs life. And for his daughter, that he get visitation, how do you know he's not involved more?

RW has made it clear that he's still being punished,abeit by his own guilt, for a crime committed a long time ago. Now I agree that everyone should be punished for their crime. But the punishment should fit the crime, not one universal punishment. Do you really believe that every one that kills someone should be thrown away for the rest of their lives without the chance of redeeming themelves?

Let's say you are driving home and don't see a pedestrian crossing the road and hit him, and causing his death. You weren't driving carelesly or erradic, but just didn't see him in time, should you be put away for the rest of your life without the posibilty of parole?

We don't know the circumstances of Rw's crimes, so you can not make an intelligent statement that he should still be behind bars. Now if you are as inteligent as you claim then you should know that some, not all criminals can realize and correct the error of their ways, and be a productive members of society.

Chris

What is someone broke into your house, and threatened your family? Would you kill them to protect the life of your wife and children?

What if someone threatened your life? What if someone was going on a shooting spree? Would you kill them to save the lives of innocents?

Murder is not forgivable. I'm sorry, it's just not.

So would you stand by while someone killed your family, yourself, or innocent lives? I am willing to bet $10,000 that you would kill an intruder who was about to kill your children. Isn't that right?

Yes they are. I'm more intelligent than most people.

No, Chris... you are NOT more intelligent that most people. You have jumped to conclusions and made your own assumptions about Rw without knowing ANY of the details of his case. An intelligent person would acknowledge that different circumstances and motives garner different sentences. Instead of using this intelligent line of thinking, you make a blatant assumption and run with it. That does NOT make you intelligent.

You don't know the circumstances of Rw's case. You don't know if he was protecting someone else, himself, and innocent person. You know nothing... yet you assume to know everything. You pass judgement without learning the facts. You are ready to execute someone with no knowledge of the circumstances of their crime.

I am not defending Rw's actions... but I am withholding judgement before I know the facts and circumstances of the case. THAT is what an intelligent person does, gather all information before making a decision. A rash, emotional, unintelligent person jumps to conclusions and passes judgment without knowing facts.

Simple solutions to simple problems. If you can't do the time, DON'T do the crime. I do not think these people deserve another chance considering the nature of their crime. All of the crimes seem to involve murder and could be punished by death instead of life without parole.

@Sally

You are suspending Birgit123 for calling another user a hypocrite? Do you understand the meaning of the word? Does that mean that if I call another user as being sarcastic, I get suspended as well?

Sorry, but I am somewhat puzzled by your post...

I hope I won't get suspended for asking a question?

Robert- your position is without merit. To deny that there are extenuating circumstances in ANY event is inaccurate and not valid. Simple solutions are not the way intelligent people should impose solutions to complicated events. Please consider the myriad of nuances that rational, intelligent people should review before sentencing a minor, let alone a 14 year old, to life in prison, or as you advocate for- death.

There may be conclusions that lead rational people to the conclusion that life is appropriate, that the perpetrator of the crime is not a candidate for rehabilitation, but we need to examine the issue before making an ignorant conclusion.

We need to be better than that- I hope you join us in agreeing to examine all of the possibilities before advocating for the state sanctioned murder of a minor.

im baffeled are they talking about teens or kids? cuz da 18 and 17 year old are way to old to even question age. but for younger kids, if 100% sure yes life sentence. murder is no exucse. if a kids commiting murder then hes got serious problems. if not 100% sure, due to age make it 20 years or something cuz we got way to many innocent ppl in jail cuz of crook cops and stuff. cuz it would really be heartbreaking if someone gots to go to life in jail for a crime they didnt commit at such a young age.

either way who cares. its called life. if you get life in prison deal with it. its not a perfect world.

RW, as I understand, this is a Christian nation with Christian laws (Mosaic law based on the book of Deuteronomy). As such, Christians tend to think Republican, which if one is to do the homework is a term that originated as Publican. This term developed as a ruling class, a leader class, a wealthy class, separated from the Patriot class, the working class, the class that sent their children to fight wars the Publicans wanted fought, so that they could further their agendas (mostly to conquer other nations and continue the wealthy status of the Publicans). Publicans promoted patriotism (pride) as a means to control the masses of Patriots (poor class), to prevent uprisings caused by the disproportionate wealth distributions. Basically, the Patriots were the working slaves to the Publicans. The best way to prevent a person from having equality is to create laws of inequality. With the system of laws that create inequality, people who are on the bottom of the social status struggle simply for a means to live. Babies born into this system grow up feeling inadequate, useless, miserable, angry. They then turn to drugs, alcohol, and other means to help them feel better. Some grow up in abusive homes. They will form gangs and fight for a right to live and develop deeply rooted desperation, despondency, depression. Multiply this by generations and then one can see the implication of the problem.

I knew a man who grew up in a severely abusive home. it is a wonder he survived. This home was so bad, as it was the goal of the mother to enslave every man she could, including her "son," that the child was beaten systematically, starved, denied an education, and denied medical care. The men in his life were abusers, criminals (father, stepfather, uncles) who did their best to make sure he also turned out to be a criminal like them. The DHS system failed him miserably. The man eventually ended up in prison. He also got out after 14 years. He will tell you that the prison system is not designed to rehabilitate anyone. If anyone comes out rehabilitated, it is through that own person's desires and efforts to change (e.g. conform). Once the person is released, the system is set up to keep that person from ever having happiness or peace. Society is unforgiving and unrelenting in its continued abuses of the person coming out of prison. Laws are designed to prevent this person from ever having a chance for a better life and being a better person.

Society creates criminals and then slaps their hands for being criminals. It's a conundrum that former criminals face. It's all a part of the Publican/Patriot system of economics. In a society without rich people sucking off of the labors of poor people, where there are no leaders, rulers, merchants, or kings, where everyone had equality, crime would cease to exist. The Republican class's economics could not tolerate that.

Bless you, RW. When the religious people understand that God only wants people to treat each other with love, respect and honor, and treat others as they themselves would want to be treated, perhaps they will then embrace the law of forgiveness. One day they will understand that the sun shines on the sinner as well as the saint. They will understand that God loves all of his children equally, as He knows the heart of each person. He knows that each person is precious and this never ends. He knows the extenuating circumstances that causes a person to harm another. He knew before we came into being that there were people who would want to dominate others, their own heavenly siblings, to the point that the heavenly sibling becomes desperate enough to cause hurt to others. He knows where the true responsibility of the behavior lies. He also knows how the scriptures that the religious people live by have been manipulated and changed from the original script. We were warned by Isaiah when he said essentially "woe unto those who will call good 'evil' and evil 'good'." (paraphrasing). We have been warned that we are creating the young lions that will enter in among the sheep and rend them to pieces. This is the effect of children growing up in abject poverty, being treated as if they have no value, and allow that their situation becomes desperate enough to resort to alcohol, drugs, and crime. Is there any wonder that there have been so many prophets placed throughout history calling the people of the world to repentence? It is the ruling class, the rich, the judgmental, the religious and the lawmakers who were/are being called to repentence. Learning to forgive is one of the most cathartic processes of healing possible.

One day there will be a government which is not self serving, when laws are no longer designed to create inequality among the people, and when that happens, the Royal Law will be in full effect - Love thyself with all thy heart, mind, might and soul, and love thy neighbor as thyself.

I don't see this happening in my lifetime, but perhaps in my next. If not then, well, I am sure I will see it in the lifetime after that.

Oh, and for those who may be interested, there is indeed forgiveness for murder. That should help the 40+ million women who have had abortions find peace in their lives, as well. There is only one real sin that is unforgiveable and that is not being true to yourself, and considering the circumstances that we are living under, I would venture to say that even thsi is forgiveable.

In fact, do us all a favor and just stop posting, because I don't think anyone here is really interested in what you have to say.

Speak for yourself, Chris. I've been very interested in what RWEvans has to say, and frankly, the highly personal experience he's shared is of far more value than your attacks.

RW -

First let me thank you for not continuing to be a cancer to society. But that is the one thing you have done right since they gave you a 2nd chance: not screwing it up.

But what YOU need to understand is that every judgement passed on you for the rest of your life is deserved, and should be expected. I am not doubting your remorse on your actions, but it is clear that you feel entitled to be treated as exceptional based on the laundry list of accomplishments you posted and the attempt to make excuses for your murder. Drugs and a bad background are never an excuse. You knew right from wrong and you knew your decisions couldn't be taken back later. If that wasn't enough to stop you then you deserved a life sentence.

You took a life. BOTTOMLINE. Every morning when you wake up and see your children, go to work or even take a breath of air that is something that you have denied to another human being for all enternity. And although it may be on your mind constantly, it doesn't take away from the fact that you are alive and you played God to make sure someone else wasn't. The "eye for an eye" BS is just that, BS!!! Incarceration isn't for the sole purpose of rehabilitation. And unfortunately that is the approach you and the criminals in this story seem to have taken. Don't confuse the issue. Imprisonment serves multiple purposes; to protect society, to punish the offender and to provide closure and solace for the families of the victims. Every moment you are free is an insult to the family of your victim. You stole their chance at seeing their loved one ever again and seeing what he/she could have brought to the world. Even if the person you killed wasn't a saint, that is merely your opinion as someone out there cared about them. Even if no one did, it's still not your decision to make.

My suggestion to you is to not be so defensive about the way people feel about you when you try and advocate for other murderers. What you have accomplished isn't amazing in any sense, regardless of what your family and friends might tell you. What you have accomplished should be seen as the LEAST you can do. As in, "yeah you damn well better be keeping your nose clean". What I haven't seen from you in all of your responses is shame. I've seen excuses, I've seen bragging and I've seen defensiveness. If I were in your position, I wouldn't be broadcasting my crimes at all. I wouldn't be proud of myself at all, because knocking up someone and doing your job isn't something to be proud of. It is something that should be expected, because many other people on the planet do it too, without a criminal record.

Try showing some humility, will you? Because the mere fact that you would try and show us how special you are us only proving that you have no shame... at least not anymore.

"Condemning an immature, vulnerable, and not-yet-fully-formed adolescent to life in prison – no matter the crime – is constitutionally a disproportionate punishment". Prison is not intended to be "an eye for an eye". Saying that a person should never have options because their dead victim has none is inconsistent with the American system of justice. Otherwise we would simply shoot them at conviction.

Real simple... "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time"

Everyone arguing about ages should realize the number is irrelevant. People are individuals and develop differently. The book The Global Bell Curve lists blacks in america as having an avg IQ of 85 (an adult with the mind of an avg 13yo european) and blacks in africa/haiti having an avg of 70IQ(an adult with the mind of an avg 11yo european). Those that evolved in areas where people had to plan ahead to have food/shelter/heat for winter are better at understanding consequences of actions.

In some states it used to be that the death penalty was not given to those with an IQ under 85 the cutoff for mental retardation. That number was lowered to 70 after they discovered blacks in america had an avg IQ of 85. There used to be sterilization programs for the lowest of IQs. Europeans with an IQ under 85 are functionally disabled but africans are more like adult bodies with child's minds.

First let me thank you for not continuing to be a cancer to society. But that is the one thing you have done right since they gave you a 2nd chance: not screwing it up.

But what YOU need to understand is that every judgement passed on you for the rest of your life is deserved, and should be expected. I am not doubting your remorse on your actions, but it is clear that you feel entitled to be treated as exceptional based on the laundry list of accomplishments you posted and the attempt to make excuses for your murder. Drugs and a bad background are never an excuse. You knew right from wrong and you knew your decisions couldn't be taken back later. If that wasn't enough to stop you then you deserved a life sentence.

You took a life. BOTTOMLINE. Every morning when you wake up and see your children, go to work or even take a breath of air that is something that you have denied to another human being for all enternity. And although it may be on your mind constantly, it doesn't take away from the fact that you are alive and you played God to make sure someone else wasn't. The "eye for an eye" BS is just that, BS!!! Incarceration isn't for the sole purpose of rehabilitation. And unfortunately that is the approach you and the criminals in this story seem to have taken. Don't confuse the issue. Imprisonment serves multiple purposes; to protect society, to punish the offender and to provide closure and solace for the families of the victims. Every moment you are free is an insult to the family of your victim. You stole their chance at seeing their loved one ever again and seeing what he/she could have brought to the world. Even if the person you killed wasn't a saint, that is merely your opinion as someone out there cared about them. Even if no one did, it's still not your decision to make.

My suggestion to you is to not be so defensive about the way people feel about you when you try and advocate for other murderers. What you have accomplished isn't amazing in any sense, regardless of what your family and friends might tell you. What you have accomplished should be seen as the LEAST you can do. As in, "yeah you damn well better be keeping your nose clean". What I haven't seen from you in all of your responses is shame. I've seen excuses, I've seen bragging and I've seen defensiveness. If I were in your position, I wouldn't be broadcasting my crimes at all. I wouldn't be proud of myself at all, because knocking up someone and doing your job isn't something to be proud of. It is something that should be expected, because many other people on the planet do it too, without a criminal record.

Try showing some humility, will you? Because the mere fact that you would try and show us how special you are us only proving that you have no shame... at least not anymore.

^This.

The book The Global Bell Curve lists blacks in america as having an avg IQ of 85 (an adult with the mind of an avg 13yo european) and blacks in africa/haiti having an avg of 70IQ(an adult with the mind of an avg 11yo european).

Sorry, dude, but Stephen Jay Gould in his book The Mismeasure of Man pretty soundly showed every argument made in "The Bell Curve" to be hugely and demonstrably false.

Chris you are wrong a jury does decide on death sentence or not in most states and in civil cases most times decides the penalty and since they decide which charges from a usual laundry list they do in a way decide the sentence so there............

Wrong, philly. Look it up. The jury can recommend the death sentence, but it is solely the judge's responsibility in the entire United States to hand out sentences in criminal cases, which is what a murder charge would be. So there.

Laura, I have to disagree with you. Society doesn't create criminals. Certain individuals just have a predisposition to doing bad things. That's why you can have two brothers grow up in a perfect household and one is a law-abider and the other turns to crime. The environment does contribute but only up to a certain extent. I remember being 6 years of age and doing something wrong and I knew it was wrong and I hid to avoid being punished. We all have impulses but we learn to control them. There's a certain percentage of the population, I don't recall if it's 1 or 2 percent, who are violent in nature. They have no conscience. They can kill without remorse. Most of them control their actions but some do not. If you see them crying afterwords it's not becaue they feel for the victim, it's because they're crying that they got caught. Society has to be protected from these types of people.

Chris you are wrong again. There a few cases where the jury does decide punishment in criminal case. they call it the penalty phase. Now you are right that in some if not most cases, the jury can only reccomend sentences, but not always. I have personally been on a jury in california that went into a penalty phase and we had to decide the punishment of the guilty party, however it is true that the judge can overrule and has the final say, but juries do decide punishment

IQ doesn't show how smart someone is comparable to Europeans at a certain age it is actually adjusted for age...But your comment shows your BQ( bigotry quotient ) you sure have a non-biased approach using this methodology..

Lolly

What I haven't seen from you in all of your responses is shame. I've seen excuses, I've seen bragging and I've seen defensiveness.

And what I have seen in your response is an emotional reaction to an assumption, based on zero facts.

You judge Rw, without knowing the circumstances of his crime. What if he was protecting an innocent life? What if he was defending himself? You don't know. Yet you judge either way.

I know someone who has murdered people, a few people actually. Would you like to jump to conclusions? What would you say to him, knowing this? Would you demand his imprisonment, or execution? Would you demand he show "shame"?

Now that you have made your assumptions and judgements... which I know you have. I will tell you another bit of information. The man I know who has murdered people is a navy seal.

Do you still feel the same way? Have you you changed your mind on his imprisonment and execution?

Maybe you and Chris should get all the facts before judging someone else. Of course, that would require a certain level of intelligence and critical thinking skills.

If you are 14 yo and kill someone, you should be getting life in prison or the death penalty. At the age of 14, you know the difference between right and wrong and there is no excuse in the world to exempt any 14 yo from a crime such as murder.

You do the crime, you do the time. If you don't want to be in jail, then don't commit the crimes.

I know Chris you know all...and from your comments you remind me of a phrase that was said about the first atomic test " Now I have become death destroyer of worlds " repeated from the Hindi text..But or you it would be altered " Now I am become death destroyer of child defendants"

Arieus, you did not read the posts that preceded yours. That's a first-rate way to make a third-rate comment. Or worse - an ignorant comment.

I think most people would understand that I was saying in a round about way and sometimes directly juries decide the penalty...For that matter in this country the arresting officer does in most people's like yours viewpoint they are convicted at arrest...I have heard too many times " if he\she didn't do anything then why are they arrested and in jail ? Cops don't arrest innocent people...I have never been arrested"

Daryll--That is the funny thing how no " Christians " actually listen to anything Jesus had to say about the new covenant ...Its because it doesn't fit with there population control techniques of the churches they blindly follow that tells them what to do instead of reading scripture for themselves...Heck that is why Catholics didn't want the Bible translated at all and protestants have so many translations to fit the current times and leaders twisted ideology..

I wish our prison system wasn't so broken. Rwevans, I'm glad that you managed to rehabilitate yourself, because the prisons in this country probably couldn't have helped. I think that we as a society should try and remember that the reason we have jails is to rehabilitate people, not to hide them away from society forever. This is especially true in the case of children.

JoeCal, you are more than welcome to disagree with me. Look up MWAW and learn what I have learned. I believe that the statistic of 1 to 2% of people who are true psychophaths (born that way) would not be a realistic number of those who are being currently put in jail. These are likely the population that should be instutitionalized, but not before they commit a crime, as very few of them actually do. There are bad apples on a tree. There will always be people who do not fit the mold of what society expects of them. But this does not account for the remainder of those who are in jail. And you did not account for the difficulties that comes with an unforgiving society that, were society to be forgiving, that cause such a high recidivism rate. There is a good deal of wasted talent, simply because these people cannot get work to provide the basics of living. All of the money that is put into the criminal justice system is money that could be put into providing the basic necessities of everyone (every.single.person) in this country and then some, allowing the free market system to provide work for the 99% who are willing to work to provide the country with the economic system needed for everyone's happiness over and beyond the necessary basic needs. We have people locked up for violations of insane laws. Marijana laws just to name one. (How many people know that marijuana was originally criminalized to prevent competition for the paper industry?) We are all going to become slaves if we haven't already. That is how the current market system is set up. It will implode and it "ain't gonna be pretty." We have already seen how close we are to the implosion, with the bank failures, the stock market crashes, energy crises...

Note in history that when the "explorers" came to this land, the natives had their own system set up, their own way of life, and it was the best example of equality as one will likely find. That is why they were so willing to welcome new people to their land with open arms and generous hearts. They only used what they needed from the land that supported them. They were immediately enslaved, their culture destroyed, forced into a money system, forced to conform to Christianity, and called cursed, heathen, savage. They were already living the laws of Christ before these "explorers" came. They were the only truly righteous people, living the Royal Law without even knowing it. The white man destroyed everything it touched with his laws and religions. The naatives did not need a free market system to survive. They took care of each other.

We have progressed as all other great civilizations before us, and we, too, will be destroyed from within, and then destroyed from without. Criminals are not the cause of what is wrong in our world. They are a casualty of the laws that have been created under the guise of forcing others to live according to what religion considers righteous.

Our justice system in America was created to protect the accused and to try something new, rehabilitation. Our ancestors (those of us whose family came over 300-400 years ago) fled Britain and other European countries to get away from various types of persecution. This is the very reason we have the protection of the 4th and 5th amendments in our Constitution. (Our justice system is set up to protect the accused and rehabilitate the condemned, not to met out revenge justice for the victim.) So that mobs or the State can't just go grab someone throw them into a pillory for a week and then into a dungeon to be forgotten by society. America was formed at the height of the Enlightenment, where people started to argue for human rights and demand more humane treatment of prisoners and the accused. In 1764 Beccaria, wrote "On Crimes and Punishments". These philosophies helped to shape the criminal justice system of today. Although I feel as a society we're straying from enlightened thought and reverting back to medieval mentality that brought us dungeons, torture and public humiliation.

I think it comes down to the basic human need to make ones self feel better than those around them. If a person commits a crime and gets caught, we then have someone we can put down, and say they're a cancer to society, which in turn makes us feel like we're the better people because we don't commit crimes of that degree. And the fact that the other human being committed a crime makes us feel justified in belittling them. It's the mentality that made public humiliation, by putting a person in a pillory so popular, or mob mentality of stoning, or mob mentality of lynchings, or mob mentality of vigilantism. And when it's something more personal, then it's really about revenge and not justice because we're hurting and we want the perpetrator to hurt as well.

We must never lose faith in ourselves. We are all humans, and we all have faults, and we all deserve a chance at redemption. "Ye without sin cast the first stone." We all know Jesus was one of the greatest philosophers and proponents of human rights in history, because he was the ultimate enlightened being. And to many G-d on earth. He also did not believe in the archaic concept of an eye for an eye. Instead he taught people to turn the other cheek, because it's much harder to truly forgive, than to take revenge.

I'm not saying we shouldn't have some type of punishment. I'm saying it's disconcerting to see how as a society we lack mercy and seem bent on revenge, and I find that scary. To me it's creates more of a problem, then solves problems. I just don't think that throwing someone in prison and throwing away the key is the only way, nor the best way to go about things.

@SirTanned, referencing Rw

chances are if there is a hell, you will be in it.

How bold of you to judge the heart of man. Regardless of your religious persuasion, this is a duty of God alone... Remember also, that Jesus forgave murderers. Routinely.

@Sean, comment 1.72 -- well said, sir.

@Chris, commenting on comment 1.72:

Sean - believing that murder is an unforgivable offense and deserves the death penalty is not an exclusively Christian principle.

It isn't a Christian principle at all. Christ forgave murderers and never once advocated for the death penalty. That is the folly of man.

I should point out, as I feel that it is pertinent, that I am not a Christian-- but I have studied it extensively (and most other world religions as well). Murder is a terrible sin, but in Christianity, no sin is so great that it cannot be cleansed by affirmation in Jesus and following his way. You don't like it? Well, no one says you have to be a Christian-- but Jesus was willing to forgive anyone, no matter how terrible their sin, if they would repent.

And Chris, you go on and on about how unforgivable it is to take someone's life, but I wonder if you have really given thought to it in any depth... Is a soldier killing another soldier also unforgivable? Why is warfare the free pass? Is it murder only if the victim is unarmed? What about the pilots who dropped bombs on Berlin? Hiroshima? Plenty of unarmed non-combatants died there. And let's take a moment and think about the less obvious killings-- a doctor who accidentally kills his patient by prescribing the wrong medication? A doctor that performs an abortion? The mother that allows it? Are these all "unforgivable" as well? The fact of the matter is that our race is carved from a history of blood. We are a warlike, murdering, tribe-obsessed species. To say that anyone who has killed another person is beyond redemption is the height of arrogance. Some of our greatest figures in history are murderers.

Chris-you are acting hypocritical (I'd say worse, but I don't want to get my butt suspended). Telling a person that what they did is wrong is one thing; calling them a cancer and saying that they ought to die is another. Do you justified in talking down to RW just because he killed somebody??? Don't you have ANY idea of what this guy is going through??? I could not make it through what this guy could; if I had to deal with what RW does on a daily basis I would shoot myself. Yes, what he did was wrong. Nobody denies that. But do you really think its fair to demonize this guy, who has CLEARLY shown that he is rehabilitated, knowing that this could EASILY cause him (no offense) or anyone else in his position to kill??? You don't know what these youngsters have gone through. You may instantly refer to me as a juvenile, to which I would reply that I am. You'd also say that it's obvious why I don't support sending a 14-year old to prison for life without parole. Hell, I'll go one step further and say that life is TOO much, even with parole. Do you not understand what pressure that youngsters like me face, with dealing drugs or committing crimes?? Seems to me that you forgot what it's like to be a kid. All you people who are demanding these kids' blood are messed up. Why??? Because you have no sympathy. I want them to serve their time; they deserve it. But what if it was YOUR child; if I had a kid who did something like that I'd want to save him from prison no matter what. Some kids are abused or have rough childhoods; most of you were probably born into loving families. And what are you telling the guy who you're sending to jail; you are a cancer to society, so f*** you and rot in hell???? It's things like that that turn people into criminals; they feel that it's them against the world. You leave people in jail forever and treat them like dirt, and they'll never change. Even if we put someone in jail forever, there is still a part of us that wants them to make their peace with God or whoever they believe in. When people say or do to these kids what Chris and Jessica and all these other insensitive commentators are saying now shows that we are willing to let another human waste away, thinking that we've done good or are helping the community. You're NOT. I sympathize with the victims, but every time I see a victim's family member condemn the criminal and wish he would rot in hell like you all are wishing these kids and RW I cringe and suddenly begin to think how evil our world is. Adults always talk about "be kind to one another" and "forgive each other," but when the time comes to follow those old maxims and show my generation how its done, all they do is f*** the accused and wish him a slow and painful death. What they are doing to him is no different to what the criminals did to the victim. Nobody, not even the victim or the family, have the right to say that. All of you who post here say that being a kid shouldn't give you a damn free pass; the same should apply for the victims. I hope that all of you will one day realize that there IS hope for people like those mentioned above; and that they are NOT cancers to society; more like fractured bones and ligaments that need to be reintroduced into society. There is an old saying in which a man who gets revenge becomes equal with his enemy; but by passing on he is superior. And let us all forget this quote from Jesus: Let he without sin be the first to cast a stone; which should apply to EVERYONE, even if you are not religious. Not being religious doesn't give you a free pass from acknowledging good habits that happen to come from a religion.

RW-I thank you for your bravery to post your thoughts and give these people an argument from a different perspective. I hope that you will you find you peace and stop feeling remorseful (unless you want to), and I wish you and your family a happy life. You do not deserve to die; nobody does. I hope all of you will remember that. Even a youngster like me who you in older generations often call "inexperienced" and "naive" can understand the benefits of forgiving. And if a naive youngster like me can forgive and show mercy to criminals, I think it is fairly within your capacity to do the same. Peace.

First of all I want to commend Mr. Evans for even being brave enough to post concerning your past. That takes great courage to post amoung wolves that would rather hang someone without a concious thought. Second I want to congratulate Mr. Evans for his accomplishments in being able to turn his life around. Not many people can say that they have done that and not many people can say that they have gotten the chance to. Thrid I would like to point out that I am a student of Criminal Justice with an associates degree working on a bachelors so I know a little more than the average person on this subject. I have taken courses in juvenile justice, policing, government and the like. The people in this forum that are quick to execute a person for their crimes should think about it more closely when you wave your views for all to see. Statistically it actually costs the tax payer more money to house an inmate on death row than it does to house them for life; so don't throw the "it's cheaper" argument out there until you do your research. By research I mean that I do not want to see people quoting wiki-anything or anything that does not come from a peer reviewed professional journal. If it isn't peer reviewd it isn't reliable. Quite frankly I am appaled at the behavior of some of you in this thread and if you really stop and look at what you have posted and think about it a bit I think you would be to. If not, well; that says more about you and your character than it does about Mr. Evans. You can spout all you want about, "what about the victims!!" but that does not change anything. Life in prison or death as a penalty does not un-do a wrong. The victim is still dead, the family still suffers a great loss. If you can say as a victim that it makes you feel better to see the person responsible put to death for it then you are no better than the criminal. If someone killed someone I loved very much would I want to see them suffer? Would I wish them to be dead? Would I feel very angry? Yes. I would. I would feel that way but the key word that seperates us from criminals and good people is "feel." Criminals feel anger and pain just like we do but the difference is in the way that they choose to act on their feelings. If we as a system or society feel angered by their actions enough to tell a system to kill then we are no better than those who feel anger and kill, steal and rape. You want to talk about justice then? Here is a huge reality check for some of you. Justice does not exist!! It never did and it never will. Get that through your head and become comfortable with it because it is the truth. The only true justice is that bad things like murder, rape and theft; just didn't happen in the first place. That would be true justice but we all know that these things DO happen and we have to live with them. The families have to live with the loss and the criminal has to live with what he or she has done. Do the criminals always learn something like Mr. Evans? Not always. Does that mean we have to treat them all as if they will not learn anything and continue to recidivate? Nope. Sorry. Wrong number. To treat them all as if they will never rehabilitate is doing them an injustice. Then you would probably say, "Why do we care about their feelings when they didn't care? Why should we help them? Because we have to treat every offender as if they have the capacity to reform regardles of what they have done just as we have to treat every one who is accused of crime as if they are innocent until proven guilty. Unfortunatly you cannot offer due processs to everyone and exclude those who are really guilty when you have not proven that they are guilty or not. You also cannot condemn them further when the guilty show that they have changed their ways and are no longer a threat to society. Some are good at fakeing it; I know, sociopaths are good at it but psychological evalutation usually catches these things. If it doesn't, well that's just the way it goes. I also have to point out that I laughed a little with Cris 629.........whatever's comment about killing is wrong period. You say that but then you say that Mr. Evans should have been executed in the same breath. What do you think an execution is my friend? The human race is so backwards sometimes. Killing people to show people that killing people is wrong. Do you see what is wrong with this statement? Do you hit a child to show a child that hitting is wrong, do you steal something to show a child that stealing is wrong, would you want to teach your children that killing a person is ok because they killed someone? If you answer yes to any of these then there is something seriously wrong with you. The human race has for centuries killed people and called it something different. Governments call it war, criminals call it murder/revenge/whatever, some states call it justified etc. Whatever name you choose to call it the end result is always the same. Loss of life. If it is wrong in one case as you profess then it must be wrong in EVERY CASE. We cannot continue to say that it is wrong here but not there; it is either wrog or it isn't. I do believe though in a grey area and that grey area is very thin. That grey area should only include an act of self defense where you are preserving your life or someone elses. After all by nature life always chooses life. How are we defending life by executing an individual? Some might say that we are stoping him or her from committing further acts of violence on others. OK. So we are basically carrying out a punishment that is very final on an individual for crimes that he or she may commit; but who is to say that they will? Who is to say that they won't? What gives you or anyone the right to decide or determine that they will or won't? Some that live may deserve death just as some that die deserve life but can you bear the burden of responsibilty for giving it to them? If you can wether you are a citizen or a system your actions are criminal. The death penalty should be abolished. Period. Life in prison without parole should only be reserved for adults and the most grevious of offenses. If we hand it out like candy it loses it's effectiveness and desparity is the result. Mr. Evans I am happy to hear that you have this new life and have gotten a second chance. I am glad to hear also that you decided to take that chance and make it a good one. I also hope that you continue to live your life in this manor and teach your children to do better and make better choices than what you have done. If you do these things then the person's life that was lost at your hand would not have been for nothing. I do not mean to say that I don't feel sorry for the victims family but there is a time where things must be let go and we must move on. Mr. Evans has payed his debt to socity and from what it sounds like; he has abandoned his criminal nature for the better. He is productive in his life and goes about his business like any one of us. Should he be allowed to do so? His debt is payed; so yes. Wether you agree or not does not change anything. In my opinion he has proven that criminals can rehabilitate if they so choose and if even one person can do this then we must continue to offer it to all. Prison isn't about punishment or seeing the guilty suffer; this is as it should be. Prison is about time out and haveing the potential to be taught a different way so that you can function in society and make better choices than what you have in the past. Mr. Evans I thank you for the insight into your life and past as you have given me things to think about in the future of my carear. You took away something that can never be re-payed; and the only thing you can do is do what you have been doing. That is all you can do. I personally have no stones to throw at you. Good luck with your family and keep doing the right things. That is all that can be asked of anyone criminal or not.

RwEvansRestored

I did 14 years in prison for murder and assault, i had just turned 17 two weeks before when i committed my crime and even though what i did may not have been as harsh as what some of these children did, and yes we forget they are just children, in some ways it was. I was a messed up kid, used and abused drugs and couldn't stay out of trouble, with no hope and lost in general. i was released in 1999 and outside of a couple of speeding tickets, i have never broken the law since then. I am married, two kids and senior in collage, about to earn my BFA.

No matter what i say i won't change anyone's mind, because its not your child in jail or prison, since they are just throw aways, out of sight and until the next time another child committs a crime like this "out of mind." When a culture cares more about oil prices, record high temps, and the next music trend, we have lost our priorities. Post 1.12

As I understand it, in the late 1800's China had a large number of drug addicts. Murders, robberies, and the like incidences were horrendous. The Chinese response was to execute the addicts, proactively. Many Chinese citizens' lives were saved and much trauma avoided.

Whether such actions were 'fair' depended on the individual point of view. I'm sure those who would have been the victim if such proactive track had not been taken would have said it was. I'm sure much of the rest of society would have agreed as the hefty costs of replacement, repair, other, were avoided.

The perpetrator's (being taken out proactively, or not) potential or afterwards view may be one of "it isn't fair"-from the future victim's and societal costs could be a hefty shrug. They might have indicated; "You had no consideration for the effects of your action(s) on other people or the costs to the society you live in. So, why should we not show you the same consideration you showed us"? Every murder, arson, rape, and other has an expanding ripple effect from 'the pebble dropped in a pond'.

The shift to execution, or prison with no chance of parole, for young folks was a response to children being utilized by gangs (for one) for drug mules and hit folks (to name two) as they would be released into society at age 18. The change didn't come 'out of thin air'. The sentence change applied to more heineous crimes-these being on the rare side as the article stated.

A 'without parole lifer' mentioned in the article now in his 20's complained there was nothing offered him for rehabilition. "Why should there be"? is a question many would ask. It is a valid question. Prison resources are limited. Limited resources are best applied where the greaatest potential is. The potential concerning such lifers is zero.

Your final paragraph contains two (unintentional, I'm sure) 'red herrings'. First off, many parents who's children are in prison effectively say, or have said, prison was the best place for their child. They indicate this along the lines prison will teach them a lesson they've got to learn. They hope prison will teach the lesson they've not learned via gentler means. I see their comment along the lines of 'the last great hope'.

The second 'red herring' is the throw-away comment. Reason is as transgressions continue the penalty/penalties escallate. Your self observation "I was a messed up kid, used and abused drugs and couldn't stay out of trouble, with no hope and lost in general" supports this. You couldn't 'stay out of trouble'. You were a messed up kid who used and abused drugs. Your track record was an established one Chinese society recognized and had to break the cycle. The innocent victim's cost to the established drugs track record was too high. That was why the Chinese went pro-active.

The self-identified mental worth of 'messed up kid, with no hope, and lost in general' was the trigger in both Chinese society and the special recognition behind the induction of enhanced penalties. A hopeless person has no reason to treat other individuals any better than treating themself.

Another track record has been established with prisoners offending again soon after completing their prison sentences. I have no idea how many of those prisoners were addicts when they went into prison. Yes, I'm aware drugs are available in prison, hopefully at a vastly decreased ease of access-giving addicts time to dry out.

Years ago, a guy I worked with's dad did some prison time. I've no idea of anything more than that. The guy did say his dad had one heck of a time even getting a janitor job elsewhere in the area-and was overjoyed to get it.
That high cost of re-offending thing and the wonder a company has about trusting the individual. Can they afford to trust? The guy said his dad was overjoyed at being given a chance. He worked his butt off and the company had no employee with greater loyalty.

I'm glad you were able to find self-worth, get an education, and be productive. You did your time.

The sad fact is the family and friends of your victim will be on 'death row' for as long as they live. Never again will they have the company of that person. The persons potential was cut short and never will return. The pain of the persons family and friends will never end.

If you asked the family and friends, I'm sure they would say the price they pay, on a daily basis, for you to get your head out of your arse was too too much.

If a person were to talk about 'fair' look to the victim(s) for your answer. Then add in the life long danger of the drug addict sinking back into the maelstrom, and the percentage of those who do.

All in all, I can't say the course the old Chinese set wasn't the most humane one when factoring in the personal pain and anguish of the addict. I can see how addiction might be equated with a rabid canine.

Indie Party -

You judge Rw, without knowing the circumstances of his crime. What if he was protecting an innocent life? What if he was defending himself? You don't know. Yet you judge either way.

If that is the case, then wouldn't he have said that right from the start as opposed to making the excuse about drugs and abuse? Even if a jury or judge didn't buy it, logic would dictate that most people who kill in self defense or defense of others usually say that first, instead of "I was on drugs and had a bad childhood." I know this based on personal experience. People who are innocent don't omit the facts if they are indeed facts, especially if they are seeking understanding and compassion.

SO what if your pal was a Navy Seal? Does that give him license to kill outside of a war situation? Unless he was performing a military procedure then that makes him twice the evil a-hole. If your friend was trained to make himself a deadly weapon then he is expected to have MORE self discipline and responsibility than the average civilian. Besides, if he was a SEAL then he was an adult so what does that have to do with this debate???

So no, you haven't changed my mind because it was up to RW to provide that detail if it's what truly happened. And in the context of this article and discussion it doesn't apply to the cases of any of these children, so your point is moot.

Sorry you wasted your time on an unlikely speculation.

RW Evans: You slaughtered a person, you took a human life, the pain the horror you caused the victim and that victims family can not be measured. Parents that will never see their child again, grandkids never born. You served 17 years and feel you paid your debt to society????? your murder vicitm pays forever as does the victims family. Opps I'm sorry doesn't cut nor does serving 17 years.

If there is truly justice in this world then someday you will share the pain you caused the family of your victim, someday you get to look down upon the slaughtered body of your child - then lets see how understanding and forgiving you will be toward the piece @!$%# that took your childs life.If you ever experienced the pain you caused your victims familyI wonder if at that monet you will feel the life of your child was only worth 17 years in prison for the murderer. Perhaps 17 years in prison is truly all your childs life is worth - your the best judge of that.

Wow Ternan are you serious? How can you talk about wanting the death of someones child? You know nothing of what happened. But yet you judge as if you knew every detailof why this event happened. This man paid his debt to society and yet several people have terrorized this man with hate, like he was the devil himself. Nobody can do that.

Ternan, I think RW is already going through his share of the pain that he caused. You don't need to keep rubbing it in your face (which you are, no matter how you cut it). So I advise you to shut up and cool it. If it took 14 years or 17 years or whatever it took to get RW to assess his life and change, than his debt to society is repaid. Not his debt to the victims; I'd assume that he made an apology or something. And either way, why are you making a premature judgement??? You don't know why he did it, or the situations, or his background. So I advise you to listen to what your teacher told you and don't judge a book by its cover. And finally, don't attack this guys' child. Calling him a murderer is one thing; attacking his child is another. So I advise you to shut up and cool it (again). I don't care if you know somebody who got killed or knew the victim or have been affected by it; attacking this guy's family is below the belt. I don't think the victim's family would like that you are demeaning this guy's family. Nobody gives you the right to say that; apparently there are a lot of self-proclaimed demigods around here...

Oh and Ternan, I advise you to listen to this famous quote: Let he without sin cast the first stone. Jesus said that; the world would be a MUCH better place if people listened to just that quote.

There should be mandatory life sentences, or death penalty in the States where eligible, for all (young, old, crazy, mentally disabled) people who commit murder. That way there is a 0% chance that they will ever murder another innocent citizen. I am not concerned with whether or not a murderer can be rehabilitated. I am concerned with whether or not citizens should expect to be protected from people who have committed murder and might murder again if given a "second chance".

Ron that is such an archaic and barbaric way of thinking. That goes against the values of this great nation. Why should every person given a life sentence or death for a murder. considering that 85% of murders are crimes of passion or accidental, the odds of someone murdering again are way way low. How can you justify those kinds of sentences if it was accidental, or in self defense? We can not have that way of thinking in our judicial system. The punishment should always fit the crime, taking into account of what happened and why the person is dead. A one size fits all attitude does not belong in the 21st century.

I read quite a lot of this discussion and want to weigh in. My sister was kidnapped and murdered in 1990 and the killer is still out there, never caught. I read with some interest all the great and wonderful things that RW has been able to do with his life since he was released from prison. Unless you have suffered the horror of having your loved one murdered, especially in such a circumstance as my sister who's only crime was to get ordered to work a second shift because another employee called out, a crime for which she was put to death, then you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. As the brother of an innocent victim, RW should never have seen the outside of a prison. And for those who want to talk about being good Christians and therefore unable to judge as only God can pass judgement, remember this, he already did, he said, 'thou shalt not kill'. So yes, taking my que from God, I'm not passing judgement, I'm only agreeing with him.

For those who want to point and say what RW is rehabilitated, I say you are wrong, he needs to make restitution, he needs to make the wronged party whole...and since he can't bring the dead back to life, then he's not fulfilled his obligation or debt to society. While you may not be the same person you were when you entered prison, the person you killed is no less dead.

The ripple effect that murder has to the victim's friends and family is immeasurable and since we can no longer enjoy the happiness, success, and triumphs of our loved ones as they themselves can no longer have any of these things, then I feel that it is completely appropriate that the murderer should also be deprived of the same. I simply don't understand how you can argue that if a murderer sits in jail long enough, takes just enough of the right classes, and is just sorry enough...then he or she gets a 'do over'. If the victim could have one, then I could possibly agree with you.

A ten year old knows that it is wrong to murder someone. Instead of "waiting" for everyone's brain to mature at 18, or late twenties or early forties, do we need to start having classes at school for the basic rights and wrongs of society? Is that what needs to happen in our sad society? Like I said, the problem is not that the child doesn't know right from wrong, the problem is that they don't fully understand the consequences. Telling a 12 year old that they will be in jail for the rest of their life if they do this or that really means little to them. They don't know what a lifetime is. I have been around too many teenagers that know everything to believe that they find it acceptable to kill someone. It is just the remedy that they chose for their particular problem. When people like the minority group on here start saying that their brain has not fully developed and that it wasn't their fault, it just gives them the green light to do what they want and shirk the responsibility for it. "It wasn't my fault, my brain wasn't fully developed yet in the frontal lobal, uhhhh lobotomy, uhhhh, that thing that I read on MSNBC..." If you pull the trigger, stick the knife, or swing the bat to kill someone, you don't ever need to see the streets as a free person anymore. If you were with someone who did that but did not participate, I do not feel like the situation is the same though. Drink and drive and kill someone as a teenager? I think that you are closer in punishment to the first group rather than the later. As much energy that is put into fighting this behavior, if you still want to do it then you need to pay the consequences. If the brain is not yet developed enough to fully realize what consequences drinking and driving can have, don't let them drive that early then. Don't give a child so much adult responsibility without adult accountability.

And yes, if you have more money, you are bound to have better representation in court. I am a white male, but I have never had to hire an attorney for court. If I ever did, however, I would hire the best that I could. I guess I put as much thought into my legal representation as I do for my upcoming space flight. There is always a possibility for either but unless I am continually breaking laws or training over at NASA, I don't think that I need to worry about it.

Ignorance is NOT an excuse PERIOD

Don't do the CRIME unless you are prepared to DO THE TIME.

`

RwEvans

wow, i didn't blame anyone for what i did, and actually i am greatful for the time i did in prison, i took a lot of time to understand myself and haven't had a drink of drug since the day i was arrestted, but here we are. even though i have changed my life, tried to do the right thing i am condemned, the post sort of prove that, why should i have hope, ideas beyond trying acting out in a criminal way when no one thinks i should have that second chance? Yet, with judgement hovering over my head and can't have a good job since convicted as a felony, i still hold true to the possibilities and live with the desire to do the right thing.

Post 1.29

Your posts portray determination, courage, and a discovery of self-worth. It sounds like you're locked into minimum wage jobs. What I get is you're not happy with the situation-having a family now.

Is there an area, or areas, you enjoy working in? Something which can be done on weekends or otherwise after work? The point is to find a need you can fill. For example, detailing (pin striping) vehicles including semis isn't something requiring much in the way of equipment. Heck, mowing small grass areas can be done using a push mower with a grass catcher, rakes, a hand edger, and the like. Keep in mind word of mouth advertising is the best advertising you can get.

MichaelB71 first I do sympathize with your loss. Secondly I do disagree with some of your statements. I also have had someone very close to me killed. I do not think that life in prison or the death penalty would have been fair in this situation. I lost my friend in 89. The killer went to the police and confessed, waived the trial and was sentenced to a 20 year to life in prison. This Individual has gone through the rehabilitation and have continually expressed sympathies over his actions. The spring of 2010 he came up for parole, and every single person in her family supported his release. Everyone saw that he had changed and was remorsefull, and would be a prdouctive member of society.

So without knowing RW's situation, I can not justify saying that he deserved a life term or a death sentence without knowing the situation. Many times it could be accidental or neglible. Not all murders warrant that kind of sentence. And I am speaking from personal experience. I today,2 years after this man had been paroled, still feel that his parole was the right thing to do, as do the members of her family still feel that way.This man has payed his debt to society and rectified the wrongs the best he could.

Now I do agree in your situation, based on the two sentences you provided that the person should get a longer and harsher punishment. But I can not support the theory that a person can not be rehabilitated, because I have witnessed the complete opposite

MichaelB71 first I do sympathize with your loss. Secondly I do disagree with some of your statements. I also have had someone very close to me killed. I do not think that life in prison or the death penalty would have been fair in this situation. I lost my friend in 89. The killer went to the police and confessed, waived the trial and was sentenced to a 20 year to life in prison. This Individual has gone through the rehabilitation and have continually expressed sympathies over his actions. The spring of 2010 he came up for parole, and every single person in her family supported his release. Everyone saw that he had changed and was remorsefull, and would be a prdouctive member of society.

So without knowing RW's situation, I can not justify saying that he deserved a life term or a death sentence without knowing the situation. Many times it could be accidental or neglible. Not all murders warrant that kind of sentence. And I am speaking from personal experience. I today,2 years after this man had been paroled, still feel that his parole was the right thing to do, as do the members of her family still feel that way.This man has payed his debt to society and rectified the wrongs the best he could.

Now I do agree in your situation, based on the two sentences you provided that the person should get a longer and harsher punishment. But I can not support the theory that a person can not be rehabilitated, because I have witnessed the complete opposite

Chris-629698

I grew up in the 80's, though I don't think the decade matters. Pretty much every generation grows up with a war waging somewhere

Not to be a nitpicker, but the 80s were basically the most war-free decade America has ever experienced. Be glad you grew up then. I turned 18 and got my selective service card a month before 9/11. Talk about bad timing. Post 1.48

Wow. Selective Service is something I've not heard in years. Are people still required to register?

I've never registered, so don't have the card. No, I didn't dodge anything. I was in the delayed enlistment program at 17 and started active duty soon after my 18th birthday.

Walkslikeaduck

That is not forgivable

Christ would disagree... Post 1.67

Not at all-provided the character existed. He was not the 'lovey dovey' character you, and many other Christians imply and/or state. Christ was neither family friendly, humble, or adverse to murder. Anything which occurs was 'His' will and further, he would have mercy upon those he willed. Wow, talk about blaming the victim! 1Thess 5:15-17 and Romans 9.

Sorry guys, but we put down rabid dogs that attack people - it doesn't matter how young they were, a lot of these crimes that are mentioned here are just so heinous that the only redemption offered them should have been between them and God... why are we paying to keep them alive?

Sean-336944

All I can say from this thread is that we're not a Christian nation at all. A lot of people say they're Christian, but it's very obvious they and we are the farthest thing from it.

Sounds to me like we're a nation of self-professed demigods.

What a sick joke we've become. We've become what we said we despised. I don't even know what we're fighting for; we should join the Taliban as allies. Here, each of you can have a stone to throw. Post 1.67

The US isn't a theocracy (Christian Nation) and it was never set up to be. Article 11 of the 1796 treaty with the Barbary Pirates states this and was unanimously approved by the full Congress. However, it is indeed a nation of Christians. Christians self-identify and the country is run by Christians. Christians, in the main, accuse each other as not being a True Christian[tm] and quote whatever verse(s) needed to support their point-even though the verses contradict each other. Christians ignore what 'Christ' said were signs of a Christian and routinely shatter the Ten Suggestions errrr... 'Commandments'. No biggie the last since 'Christ' didn't follow them himself.

Your comparison with the Taliban is accurate. Look at all the legislation seeking to re-enslave women. Look at all the legislation (mostly via Republican Party) seeking to keep gays in the same spot black folks were for much of this country's existence. Its the same 'boiler plate' verbiage with a different group in the target slot.

These 'all true Christians' envy what the Taliban can decree and demonstratively fear America's freedom. Freedom requires courage which is lacking. The toddler level verbiage, hypocrisy, and bald faced lies by these folks are mindbogglingly obvious-yet it mostly works.

"Thou Art God" applies to these folks as each claims they're guided by the 'Holy Spirit'. The Christian 'Moral Compass' has a spin rate approaching the speed of light. It would be more accurate if the compass needle were to be nailed in one position. There would be times it would point in the right direction ala 'the stopped clock' which is right once or twice per day.

Eric, if somebody kills another in self defense then it is NOT murder. In most States, a person will receive a 'no bill' from a grand jury and not even face a trial for killing another in self defense. I am all for self defense and have a carry permit.

In other instances, say accidentally taking another's life, the charges would be reckless homicide or manslaughter in varying degrees. Again, it would not be murder.

Murder: The unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

A short list of murderers who were either paroled, escaped or incarcerated and murdered again, for all of you bleeding hearts to contemplate. Will all murderers kill again if released? No. Should the public be permanently protected from those who have already murdered? Yes.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John McRae -- Michigan/Florida. Life for murder of 8-year-old boy. Pedophile. Paroled 1971. Convicted of another murder of a boy after parole, in Michigan 1998. Charges pending on 2 other counts in Florida.
---------------------------------------
John Miller -- California. Killed an infant 1957, convicted of murder, 1958. Paroled 1975. Killed his parents 1975. Life term 1975.
---------------------------------------
Michael Lawrence -- Florida. Killed robbery victim. Life term, 1976. Paroled 1985. Killed robbery victim. Condemned 1990.
---------------------------------------
Donald Dillbeck -- Florida. Killed policeman in 1979. Escaped from prison in 1990, kidnapped and killed female motorist after escape. Condemned 1991.
---------------------------------------
Edward Kennedy -- Florida. Killed motel clerk. Sentenced to Life. Escaped 1981. Killed policeman and male civilian after prison break. Executed 1992.
---------------------------------------
Dawud Mu'Min -- Virginia. Killed cab driver in holdup. Sentenced 1973. Escaped 1988. Raped/killed woman 1988. Condemned 1989. Executed 1997.
---------------------------------------
Viva Nash -- Utah/Arizona. Two terms of life for murder in Utah, 1978. Escaped in 1982. Murdered again. Condemned in Arizona, 1983.
---------------------------------------
Randy Greenawalt -- Escaped from Prison in 1978, while serving a life sentence for a 1974 murder. He then murdered a family of 4 people, shotgunning them to death, including a toddler.
---------------------------------------
Norman Parker -- Florida/D.C. Life term in Florida for murder, 1966. Escaped 1978. Life on another count of murder in 1979.
---------------------------------------
Winford Stokes -- Missouri. Ruled insane on two counts of murder 1969. Escaped from asylum, 1978. Murdered again. Executed for this murder, 1990.
---------------------------------------
Charles Crawford -- Missouri. Life term in 1965 for murder. Paroled 1990. Convicted of murder again in 1994.
---------------------------------------
Jack Ferrell -- Florida. Committed Murdered 1981. 15 years to life, 1982. Paroled 1987. Murdered again 1992. Condemned 1993.
---------------------------------------
Timothy Buss -- Murdered five-year-old girl. Sentenced to 25 years in 1981. Paroled 1993. Murdered 10-year-old boy. Condemned 1996.
---------------------------------------
Martsay Bolder -- Missouri. Serving a sentence of life for first-degree murder in 1973. Murdered prison cellmate 1979.
---------------------------------------
Henry Brisbon, Illinois. Murdered 2 in robbery. Sentenced to 1000- 3000 years. Killed inmate in prison 1982. Sentenced to DP. Commuted by Governor Ryan.
---------------------------------------
Randolph Dial -- Oklahoma. Life for murder 1986. Escaped from prison with deputy warden's wife as kidnap victim. 1989. Still at large. Warden's wife never found.
---------------------------------------
Arthur J. Bomar, Jr. -- released from prison in Nevada on parole in 1990. Bomar had served 11 years of a murder sentence for killing a man over an argument about a parking space. Six years later in Pennsylvania, Bomar brutally kidnapped, raped and murdered George Mason University star athlete Aimee Willard.
---------------------------------------
Dwain Little -- Oregon. Raped/Stabbed 16-year-old girl. Life term 1966. Paroled 1974. Returned as Parole Violator 1975. Again Released 1977. Then shot family of 4. Three consecutive life terms for rape and murder 1980.
---------------------------------------
Arthur Shawcross (The 'Monster of the Rivers') -- Released after serving a 25 year sentence for a child murder, turned to murdering prostitutes. At least 10 in all. Now serving ten consecutive sentences of 25 years to life - 250 years in all.
---------------------------------------
Samuel D. Smith -- in prison for murdering Zita Casey, 79, during a burglary in St. Louis in 1978. While in prison he murdered another inmate, Marlin May, during a knife fight in 1987 in prison.
---------------------------------------
Darrell P. Pandeli -- After being released from prison after a conviction for murder, Pandeli murdered a prostitute, cut off her nipples and flushed them down the toilet. Now on DR in Arizona for that second recidivist murder.
---------------------------------------
Chad Allen Lee -- Convicted of capital murder. Sentenced to other than death. Released and went on murder spree. Murdering Linda Reynolds, a pizza delivery person, and 9 days later robbed and murdered David Lacey, a taxi cab driver. Lee then robbed a mini-market 7 days after than. Shooting the owner, Harold Drury, multiple times without reason.
---------------------------------------
Scott Lehr -- Convicted of capital murder. Sentenced to other than death. Later released. After release, between Feb 91 and Feb 92 lured 10 different female victims, between the ages of 10 and 48-years-old, into his car. Raping and beating them unconscious, stripped and adandoned them in the desert. Three of his victims died in those acts.
---------------------------------------
James Erin McKinney -- Convicted of capital murder. Sentenced to other than death. Later released. Then murdered Christine Mertens in a home invasion robbery. Later murdered James McClain in another separate home invasion robbery.
---------------------------------------
Michael Murdaugh -- Convicted of capital murder. Sentenced to other than death. Later released. After release murdered David Reynolds. Beating him to death. When 'dumping' the body, Murdaugh severed Reynold's head and hands, pulled out his teeth, and buried the body parts.
---------------------------------------
Charles Daniels -- was convicted and sentenced to Life for the 1965 rape and murder of a Louisiana woman. Later having his sentence commuted, he was release. And he again killed another woman, 32-year-old Debbie Tatum.
---------------------------------------
Jarmarr Arnold -- who, while on DR, murdered another DR inmate by stabbing him in the forehead with a sharpen spike. Proving that not even a death sentence can prevent murder until the sentence is carried out.
---------------------------------------
Robert Lee Massie -- Sentenced to the DP, but overturned by Furman, which resulted in him committing further new murders.
---------------------------------------
Kenneth McDuff - Sentenced to the DP, but overturned by Furman. Subsequently released, and murdered as many as 19 young women after his release. Finally executed in 1998 for the murder of Melissa Ann Northrup see ... Who once remarked "Killing a woman is like killing a chicken. They both squawk."
---------------------------------------
Darryl Kemp -- Sentenced to the DP, but overturned by Furman. Subsequently released. Authorities now say he raped and strangled a woman jogging, less than 4 months later.
---------------------------------------
Timothy Hancock -- Serving a life sentence for a murder he committed in 1990, murdered his cellmate, Jason Wagner, in November 2000, while serving his life sentence.
---------------------------------------
Howard Allen -- murdered an elderly woman.. Opal Cooper, in Aug 1974, and was sentenced to 21 years in prison. By January 1985, less than ten years after being incarcerated, Howard Allen was released. On May 20, 1987 Howard Allen broke into the home of eighty-seven year old Laverne Hale, and savagely beat her to death. Six weeks later Allen struck again. On July 13, 1987 Howard Allen knocked on the door of Ernestine Griffin. At lunchtime the following day she was found murdered. On June 11, 1988 Allen was found guilty was found guilty of Ernestine’s murder.
---------------------------------------
Melvin Geary -- originally sentenced to L wop, for the stabbing death of a woman in 1973 with a boning knife. Changed to Life.. released... After his release, Geary was subsequently convicted of murdering 71-year-old Edward Colvin of Sparks, again with a boning knife after Colvin took him in.
---------------------------------------
William Coday Jr. -- convicted of murdering 19-year-old Lisa Hullinger in September 1978. After spending just 15 months in a German prison, he was released. In April 2002, he was convicted of having murdered Gloria Gomez on 13 July, 1997.
---------------------------------------
Corey R. Barton -- In 1983 he murdered 16-year-old Shari-Ann Merton. He received 18 years in prison. He was released after serving 9 years and 8 months. In November 1998, he murdered 27 year-old Sally Harris of North Carolina.
---------------------------------------
Cuhuatemoc Hinricky Peraita -- Rainbow City, Alabama, who was serving life without parole for 3 murders in Gadsden, Alabama was found guilty of capital murder for murdering a fellow inmate.
---------------------------------------
James Prestridge -- Sentenced to L wop, for murdering Esfandiar Ateighechi, as he begged for his life in 1989. Escaped from prison along with John Doran. After their escape Prestridge murdered his fellow-escapee John Doran, shooting him in the back of the head.
---------------------------------------
Jimmy Lee Gray -- who was free on parole from an Arizona conviction for killing a 16-year-old high school girl, kidnapped, sodomized, and suffocated a three-year-old Mississippi girl.
---------------------------------------
Jack Henry Abbott, who had murdered a fellow prison inmate, was released early from a Utah prison. On July 18, 1981, six-weeks after his release, Abbott stabbed actor Richard Adan to death in New York.
---------------------------------------
Benny Lee Chaffin, on December 7, 1984 kidnapped, raped, and murdered a 9-year-old Springfield, Oregon girl. He had been convicted of murder once before in Texas, but not executed.
---------------------------------------
Thomas Eugene Creech, who had been convicted of three murders and had claimed a role in more than 40 killings in 13 states as a paid killer for a motorcycle gang, killed a fellow prison inmate in 1981 and was sentenced to death.
---------------------------------------
Wayne Henry Garrison, 42, was convicted of 1st-degree murder in the death of Justin Wiles 13, of Tulsa. As a teenager, Garrison had killed two children in Tulsa. Police earlier said the circumstances of those killings were similar to Justin's death.
---------------------------------------
Tommy Arthur -- sentenced to die in Alabama's electric chair for killing Troy Wicker in a 1982 murder for-hire scheme in Muscle Shoals. Arthur had already been convicted in 1977 of killing the sister of his common-law wife. He had been sentenced to life for that murder.
---------------------------------------
Robert Lynn Pruett -- a convicted killer already serving a life sentence, fatally stabbed prison guard Daniel Nagle with a sharpened rod while patrolling the Texas Department of Criminal Justice McConnell Unit near Beeville in South Texas. It was the first fatal attack on a Texas corrections officer since guard Minnie Houston was stabbed to death in 1984 by an inmate at the Ellis Unit near Huntsville, a prison official said.
---------------------------------------
Miguel Salas Rodriguez -- charged in the murder of a sheriff's deputy. Sgt. David M. Furrh, 40, in Dec 2000. Rodriguez had a December 1973 conviction of homicide without malice, for which he was sentenced to five years in prison. And yet ANOTHER conviction for murder in April 1979, for which he was sentenced to 70 years in prison. Rodriguez was paroled in October 1989.
---------------------------------------
Bennie Demps --condemned to the DP for the 1976 murder of Alfred Sturgis, a prison snitch. Originally, Demps was sent to death row for the murders of R.N. Brinkworth and Celia Puhlick, who were fatally shot in a Lake County citrus grove. A year after Demps was sent to death row, the U.S. Supreme Court threw out capital punishment across the country, ruling death sentences had been imposed in an arbitrary way. Another failure of the Furman-commuted murderers.
---------------------------------------
Leroy Schmitz -- convicted of strangling his live-in girlfriend in 1986, during an argument. He was sentenced to 18-20 years for that homicide. He was later convicted of murdering his wife, in Whitefish, Montana in 1999.
---------------------------------------
Vernon Sattiewhite -- In 1977, Sattiewhite had been sentenced to five years for a murder but was paroled two years later and granted clemency. In 1984, he was convicted of robbery and sentenced to two years in prison but was paroled after less than six months. Soon after he murdered his ex-girlfriend, Sandra Sorrell.
---------------------------------------
Tomas G. Ervin -- Sentenced to death in 1990, after conviction of the December 1988 murders of Mildred L. Hodges, 75, and her son, Richard E. Hodges. Bert Hunter, who was arrested along with Ervin pleaded guilty to the first-degree murder charges. Hunter and Ervin had met in the Missouri State Penitentiary, where they were both serving life sentences for previous murders.
---------------------------------------
William Michael "Billy the Kid" Mason -- killed his wife three weeks after he was paroled on another murder conviction.
---------------------------------------
Daniel Joe Hittle -- convicted of capital murder and sentenced to death for murdering a police officer Hittle, 40, was described by witnesses as a man who gleefully killed or tortured animals and who routinely beat women and children. He was on parole for the killings of his adoptive parents in Minnesota when he shot Garland police officer Gerald Walker during a traffic stop. Hittle then sped to East Dallas, where he fatally shot Mary Alice Goss, 39; Richard Joseph Cook Jr., 36; Raymond Scott Gregg, 19; and Goss' 4-year-old daughter Christy Condon.
---------------------------------------
Tony Walker -- Texas. Convicted of murder in 1978. Sentenced to 5 years. Murdered a 66 year-old woman and her 81 year-old husband in 1992. Jerome Butler -- Found guilty of the shooting of cab driver Nathan Oakley, 67. Oakley had been a Houston cab driver for 30 years. Butler had an extensive criminal history, including a 1959 conviction on two counts of robbery and assault in New York City. Butler had previously served about 10 years of a 30-year sentence after pleading guilty to the murder of A.C. Johnson, 69.
---------------------------------------
Dalton Prejean -- killed a taxi driver when he was 14, . When he was 17, he gunned down a state trooper in Lafayette, Louisiana. Despite protests from the American Civil Liberties Union and other abolitionist groups, Prejean was executed for the second murder on May 18, 1990.
---------------------------------------
Phillip Jablonski -- Carol Spadoni married Jablonski on June 16, 1982, while he was serving a prison sentence for the 1979 murder of his third wife, Melinda Kimball. After she became his pen-pal correspondent in prison. Jablonski murdered his prison pen-pal wife and her mother. And the day before those murders he had murdered Fathyma Vann, 38, in Indio, about 25 miles from Palm Springs, Vann was found shot and sexually mutilated in the desert with ``I love Jesus'' carved in her back." Now GET THIS -- See... It seems that Phillip Jablonski, now in prison after ALL those murders, placed an ad for a pen-pal -- "Jewish Death Row inmate, white, 51 years old, seeking understanding and open female or male for honest correspondence. Amateur poet, artist. Will answer all correspondence received. PHILLIP JABLONSKI, C-02477/SE95, San Quentin, CA 94974"
---------------------------------------
Jerry Michael Ward -- Originally sentenced to die in the electric chair, for committing murder with malice in the rape and murder of a Houston school girl. His sentence was commuted to life in prison when the U.S. Supreme Court abolished the death penalty in 1972. Although the death penalty was reinstated, the sentence was not. He was subsequently paroled in 1984 after serving 18 years in prison. He was the number one suspect in two new cases, involving the the disappearance of Connie Sue Cooke, and the murder of Brenda Maureen Hackett. But althought police were on the verge of arresting him, Ward committed suicide in a self-inflicted execution.
---------------------------------------
David E. Maust -- Hammond, Illinois. Murdered a 15-year-old boy in 1981. After released murdered three teenage boys, in circumstances similiar to John Wayne Gacy... burying their bodies in concrete in his basement.
---------------------------------------
James Homer Elledge -- sent to prison for life in 1975 after beating a Seattle motel owner to death with a ball-peen hammer. In the years that followed, he won parole 3 times, most recently in August 1995. prosecutors have now charged Elledge with 1st-degree murder for allegedly stabbing and strangling Eloise Jane Fitzner, 47, in a church basement.
---------------------------------------
Zeno E. Sims -- sent to prison for eight years for the murder of a 24-year-old-man. Released on parole, in Kansas City, he then murdered DeAntreia L Ashley, a 15-year-old-girl, after a minor traffic accident.
---------------------------------------
Arthur James Julius -- convicted of murder and sentenced to life in prison. In 1978, he was given a brief leave from prison, during which he raped and murdered a cousin. He was sentenced to death for that crime and was executed on November 17, 1989.
---------------------------------------
In March 1979, a Graterford (Pa.) prison guard was murdered brutally by an inmate. The inmate -- at the time he murdered the guard -- already was serving a life sentence for the triple murder of two infants and an elderly woman.
---------------------------------------
In 1994, an inmate who already was serving two life sentences in the Philadelphia Industrial Correctional Center was sentenced to three more after he was convicted of stabbing three prison guards.
---------------------------------------
In 1995, two death-row inmates at the Florida State Prison in Starke were killed by their fellow inmates.
---------------------------------------
In 1999, a Beeville (Texas) prison guard was killed by an inmate already serving a sentence for murder.
---------------------------------------
On November 9, 1983 Associate U.S. Attorney General D. Lowell Jensen told a Senate subcommittee that it is impossible to punish or even deter such prison murders because, without a death sentence, a violent life-termer has free rein "to continue to murder as opportunity and his perverse motives dictate."
---------------------------------------
On October 22, 1983 at the federal penitentiary in Marion, Illinois, two prison guards were murdered in two SEPARATE instances by SEPARATE inmates who were both serving life terms for previously murdering inmates.

Eric, I would like to know where you pulled the 85% of murders are crimes of passion statistic? Is that a random number you chose to bolster your position?

Here are some actual statistics from, "Felony Defendants in Large Urban Counties, 1998":

• 81% of all homicide defendants have at least one arrest on their record.
• 66% have two or more arrests.
• 67% have at least one felony arrest.
• 56% have two or more felony arrests.
• 70% have at least one conviction.
• 54% have at least one felony conviction.

What I found for New York State - Domestic Violence Fatalities 1997:

New York State - "In most of the cases reviewed by the Commission, a pattern of domestic violence preceded the homicide; in half of the cases, a prior criminal record preceded the homicide as well. In 40 (70%) of the 57 cases reviewed, the offender had a history of physical abuse of the victim. In 26 (65%) of these 40 cases, the offender also had a prior criminal record of one or more arrests. In 22 (85%) of these 26 cases, the offenders had prior arrests for incidents of domestic violence. Of the 57 cases, however, there were 6 with no history of abuse and 11 with a history of non-physical abuse only, giving a combined total of 17 (30%) of the cases with no known violent behavior prior to the homicide."

That's only 30% of of the 57 domestic homicide cases reviewed being a possible "crime of passion". If there is a history of doemstic violence then I, as well as the Commission which reviewed the study, would not consider a homicide in that situation to be a crime of passion because of the previously displayed propensity toward criminal acts and violence.

Ron my 85% has been given based upon research into several southern California counties going back 30 years. Now true not all areas are like that. As far as murder, the courts don't always see it that way. I've seen two cases localy that were both home invasion robberies. The homeowners shot and killed the robbers trying to protect their families. They were convicted as murderers, and sentenced to jail.

Now I do agree with you that with murders we should be careful when it come to parole. But i seriously disagree that no murderer can be rehabilitated. That is irrational. As in the case of my particular circumstance, a murderer can be rehabilitated, released and be productive members of society. We can not have a single form of punishment for a crime. There are way to many mitigating circumstances, in each individual case to treat every one the same.

And I did not say that murderers can not be rehabilitated. I stated that I did not care if they can be. I would rather a murderer stay in prison for life than be given the opportunity to murder again. No person can ever say for certain that a murderer will not murder again, as demonstrated by the many murdering parolees who commit murder again after their release. If a person has demonstrated the willingness to murder another human being then they need to be permanently removed from society.

As for the homeowners who shot and killed robbers, in which state did these cases occur? California? Names of the homeowners who were convicted of murder would be appreciated. There almost certainly has to be another reason that they were convicted of murder if they claimed to have been protecting themselves from an intruder in their home. In half of our States (California included), Castle Doctrine applies and allow a homeowner to defend themselves within their home with deadly force without first attempting to retreat. Other States may require the homeowner to attempt to retreat before using deadly force. Texas, and I love this about that State, allows you to even kill burglars who are fleeing your home (or even your neighbors home) with stolen goods.

Lastly, please list your source for the 85% figure. I have been unable to locate it. I will not believe that figure without a valid reference. It makes absolutely no sense. The FBI determined that in the year 1995 55% of murders were committed by strangers and 29% were committed by spouse or partner. Hard to believe that a stranger can commit a "crime of passion" when murdering someone they have never met. Perhaps you are confusing "crime of passion" with a lack of violent impulse control?

From the FBI website - 2010 homicides:

Of the murders for which the circumstance surrounding the murder was known, 41.8 percent of victims were murdered during arguments (including romantic triangles) in 2010. Felony circumstances (rape, robbery, burglary, etc.) accounted for 23.1 percent of murders. Circumstances were unknown for 35.8 percent of reported homicides.

Check it out if you want. They have quite a statistical database compiled for the last 5-6 decades.

Wow, I read this entire thread and for a bit there I thought I had fallen in to a sibling rivalry.

Chris629698, what are you? A Bible thumper? Zealot? What I can safely say is that you're not nearly as intelligent as you believe. First let's go waaaaay back to your comment about sentencing. In fact, if you knew anything about it or even, hell, I don't know watched Law & Order you'd know in certain capital trials, where extreme justice is meted out for heinous crimes, it is the rule that no single person should decide the defendants fate, and the jury imposes sentence from a list of possible punishments, usually ranging from 25-50 years, to life with chance of parole in 40 years, to life with no chance of parole, to death. So what should my sentence be? I've killed eleven people. Yes, as a Marine, but regardless, it's taking a life. I did this all before my kids were born. Should I not have them? You say the abused should not be allowed to defend themselves? You've obviously never taken time to learn about the abused/abuser relationship. VERY often abused people don't dare leave as they have been threatened, even had their children threatened. You ever witness the aftermath of these threats carried out? I sure as hell have. I've zipped more than one body bag over someone who'd tried to get away. I'm betting there's far more to RwEvans story than he's letting on, but you don't care. Judge lest ye be judged.

RwEvans, blessed is right. I've been through much the same thing with children, child support, and my childrens mother. I did the same as you. You made a HUGE mistake. You got very lucky on the sentence. You KNEW you'd been given a gift...your life...and to thank those who gave you that chance you've repaid their leniency with hard work and good parenthood. I won't delve in to what you did...you know it more than anyone...just keep walking the line you've chosen. As I said to our neighborhood zealot, I think there's more to your story than you tell. That's your right. Others need to learn to accept that and move on. Rw, keep making good every day. It's worked out well, you have a good life you worked to build, and the people who gave you this opportunity will be glad they did.

Someone up there went off in a different direction and got smacked down for it, yet he had a valid point. These kids stated going wrong somewhere. Yes, sometimes even in the best homes, some kids have issues. Mostly, though, kids who do this come from homes where violence is the norm, they have no discipline, never learn consequences, and are around adults too busy fighting with each other to raise their kids. WE DO need to start changing how kids are raised, or this will happen MORE AND MORE. I was raised in a home where my mother left us and my father was a drunk, and not the "happy" kind. I was STILL raised with discipline (though not abuse) and, though I was the (really) long haired, unlaced combat boots, leather jacket, ripped jeans type, I never acted out, never committed senseless violent acts, never dragged guns to school except during deer season (we were allowed to leave them locked in the truck during deer season). I turned out very normal, a Marine, a firefighter/paramedic, a writer, a father, a husband. If people start being PARENTS and stop trying to be their childrens friend, we might not be reading about a different school shooting every week or teens sentenced to life in prison.

Rwevans is gone. He hasn't posted in several days. He can't hear you any more.

Is he gone, Case, or tired of trying to be rational with an irrational person? When I try to have a discussion with one of the brick walls here I stop posting but I still check.

Well Ron like I said I based it upon a sampling in several California counties I have studied. Although I understand where you're coming from I can not agree with you 100% on never taking a chance on someone who has murdered before. Yes we have made many mistakes as a nation releasing murderers that have killed again, but the ones that truley do deserve a second chance such as RW evans, and the individual in my particular case should not be punished unjustly because of those mistakes and those who truly are evil people.

I'll take your word on the FBI stats, I was just giving a percentage based upon a small sampling of murder convictions. However in my opinion we go to far backwards in basic human rights if we say that every single person who has been convicted of murder get's one of two sentences, being life without parole or death. That is illogical.

Illogical? Actually, my argument is the logically sound argument. Logic dictates that if a murderer is put to death or confined for life then the murderer can not murder another innocent person, unless a convicted murderer murders again while incarcerated.

Your argument is the compassionate argument. You do not have logic on your side. You have emotion and hope.

Sorry I again disagree. I do see your point, but it is illogical to say that every person is one and the same.. Each murder has different reasons. And each person's punishment is different to them. It is not logical to say that no murderer can change their life for the better. I do agree that some people do not change and should be away from society and never given a chance, however there are people that can correct their lives for the better. I do feel your argument is playing it safe. I've personally seen the change in a murderer that took someones life. Yes we have made mistakes in the past, by letting some people out, but we can not unfairly punish those who truly deserve a second chance.

Dude, again, I did not say that a murderer can't change or can't be rehabilitated. I stated that I don't care if they can be. I don't believe it's worth risking the lives of innocent people to find out. If a person commits the ultimate crime, the most detructive crime, murder, then that person should face the ultimate penalty and be removed from society permanently.

You state that my view is illogical.

Logic: If a murderer is dead he can't murder again. That is a logically true statement.

Logic: If a murderer is confined for life he can't murder again unless he murders a guard or an inmate, That is a logically true statement.

There is no passion in those two statements only simple logic.

Your argument is, a murderer could change and never murder again. That is not a logical statement. That is a statement of hope and chance with a lot of room for error.

Ok again, where I say there is no. logic is where every person and crime is to be treated the same. If no two people are alike and no two murders are alike, then you can not treat all crimes and murderers alike. That is plain BS. I will say this again, I have willingly agreed that a murderer that killed someone dear to me be let go because he has sufficiently proved he has been rehabilitated. And 15 years after seeing him get outof jail I have zero regrets about having him come out of prison and assimilated back into society.

So again yes your two sentences are logical. However your insistence on treating every murderer the same as the next one is not in my view. Now I do respect it as your opinion, as I have several friends and family who share the same based upon this case. However I can not see any logic behind the one size fits all sentencing guidelines you so cherish.

My statements are logical but are not compassionate nor reasonable. Is that what you are trying to say? I agree. My whole viewpoint is logic not reason or compassion. I have no compassion for murderers. I believe there should be no room for compassion in the criminal justice system when dealing with a person who murders another for: money, drugs, race, hate, pleasure or to try and avoid prison by eliminating victims while committing rape, kidnapping, robbery, burglary or assaults of any kind. To me there is no excuse for these actions. Progressive liberals would blame society. "We made him what he is". No. Many people have been through traumatic experiences and have chosen not to murder. I was sexually assaulted as a child but I have never assaulted another because of my anger over what that person did. My view on murderers is about keeping society safe from those who have already murdered. You can't keep society safe by taking a chance that a murderer might not murder again.

Personally, I believe that the death penalty should be expanded to cover a great many other crimes. I say, permanently remove the worst from society. How many rapists serve their time, get out, rape and or murder after their release? It happens far too often.

You and Jesus have a lot in common. I respect what Jesus taught and I can respect you for your compassion but I think that it is too dangerous to trust someone who has already proven himself to be the most untrustworthy type of person.

Well I'm sorry we do disagree on this item. I know I'm not trying to change your opinions,or you trying to change mine. I'm just giving,and have, a different viewpoint. Glad to see you have passion and an educated viewpoint in this particular topic. I'm sorry to hear that you had to go through that kind of pain earlier in your life. I also can see why you feel this way, as my feelings and views were similar to yours when I lost a very close friend 25 years ago. Well hope we do have morediscussions on other topics in the future.

How about the good of the LAW-ABIDING outweighs the good of the criminals?! Who can tell which ones are going to be good when they're let out? No one. If I had my way, you would get "life without" for rape and child molestation too!

Thoughtful, insightful comment. My wife worked in a junveile facility....two were released when they turned 18 and robbed and killed a man within one week after release. They are now serving life without Montana. The family man with three children is still dead....all for $8.25.

The good of the law-abiding never trumps rightfull justice. We do well to keep that ideal alive so as to no put innocent men in prison nor harm reformed men.

Like I said above, I don't really believe that "life without parole" is going to mean no parole - in fact, I remember reading a report many years ago by some prison official who said it couldn't possibly mean their entire lives. He pointed out that as they aged, the prison system could not and wouldn't want to pay for their medical expenses (hellofa reason to release someone, but then again so is overcrowding). Also, he said that the LAST thing a prison wanted was a huge population of "life without parolers", they'd be the hardest to control since they literally would have nothing to lose. So yeah, I expect they'll serve about 30-40 years, then get release for SOME reason.

Swamp - are you saying that perhaps the Juvenile Court System, and that "network" of services, are failing youthful offenders? If they are released just because they turn 18 or 21, but have not been "helped", nor helped themselves (finished schooling/training) - but then are unleashed upon an unsuspecting society to murder again.... well, yup, that's a big problem.

Maybe that "21" and turned loose thing needs tweaked.

I would like to see the parent(s) held accountable as they are responsible for their minor children. The parents screw up and society suffers the consequences. Perhaps the school systems should offer parenting 101 at the high school level and maybe some of these type cases would diminish over time.

Lionel Tate. Mr. Tate killed a 6 year old girl when he was 12! He was convicted in 2001 and given a life sentence. His sentence was overturned and he was released with one year's house arrest and 10 years probation. He subsequently was guilty of violating probation, armed robbery, assault. In 2006, at the age of 19, he was sentenced to 30 years in prison. Nice what he did with his second chance, huh?

How can you hold parents accountable when 70% of black children are born to unwed moms? Coincidentaly blacks make up 13% of the US population but over half of the prison population.

I call bs...You personally worked with that many child killer,repeat offenders what are the odds on that? You should play the lottery...HAhhahahahah

Steveaae

Deny welfare to pregnant women who aren't marrried. The Dems of the Great Society created the welfare mess, let the current ones fix it.

There are three approaches to examining liability for murder in the U.S: Common Law, Statutory Law and the Model Penal Code. For simplicity sake, consider the common law definition of murder; "the killing of a human being by another human being with malice aforethought." "Malice" is found if the individual possesses any one of the four states of mind:

• The intention to kill a human being
• The intention to inflict grievous bodily injury on another
• An extremely reckless disregard for the value of human life; or
• The intention to commit a felony during the commission or attempted commission of which a death results.

Anyone who is old enough to be malicious is old enough to go to prison for life!

Of course there always has to be 1 or 2 narrow minded conservatives that blame the whole thing on race and class. Yet how would you explain one of the most heinous child murderers in history? A white kid from a suburban neighborhood. Good parents.

Eric Smith: Eric was only 13 years old when he murdered 4 year-old Derrick Robie in a park in rural Steuben County, New York during the summer of 1993. Eric reportedly led Derrick to the remote location where he murdered the young boy. Eric strangled and sodomized Derrick with a tree limb. He dropped two large rocks on Derrick's head, which were determined to be the young boy's cause of death with contributing asphyxia. After Derrick's body was discovered, Eric went out of his way to hang around Derrick's home and family, constantly asking about the status of the investigation in order to see if anyone suspected him of the murder.

Eric was reportedly teased by classmates for his appearance, was a loner and had been diagnosed by a defense psychiatrist with intermittent explosive disorder, a mental disorder causing individuals to act out violently and unpredictably.

Eric was tried as an adult and was sentenced to 9 years-to-life in prison. Each of his attempts at parole has been denied. Eric is over 30 and up for parole again next month. He will most likely be denied, again.

Roscoe2u; Don't you think that discipline should start at home?

Nasty - Discipline is a parental responsibility but today if you "spank" your child, the child can file a complaint and have the parent put in jail. Parents should be held responsible for the actions of their children. That said, the parents should have an adjoining cell or share the same cell with their children if the parents are brave enough.

Yeah regardless of discipline everyone should know that murder is wrong by the time they are 6 or so.

Discipline should begin at home The Nasty Swamprat, but it doesn't and the coddling of children in our society at all levels is symptomatic of the problems. Schools cannot discipline kids and when they try, parents defend their children against teachers and eye witnesses.

Children have no fear or respect for authority anymore - they only have some deluded concept that they have "rights" which include doing mostly anything they want and having anything they want. Parents do not say NO to their children, make them work, punish them or demand they respect all adults. In fact, children are let to run like animals in some places, so no wonder they act like them.

Schools should have some disciplinary tools available to them and parents should send their kids off to school with the admonishment to 'be respectful' of the teaches and with the understanding that disrespect towards teachers will have consequences. Moreover - there should be less unsupervised time.

Yes...it SHOULD...but it doesn't!! After all, parental dicipline SHOULD be able to nip the problem in the bud within the family unit. BUT...with the legal ruling of not being able to punish your own kids (physically), we have reaped what we have sown!! So-called "student rights" have gone WAY too far, and the end result is what we are commenting about right now!!

Joe as painful as it is to imagine a child performing these hideous actions blaming the parents in all cases is not the answer. Unfortunately, I hate to admit this, some children are just born bad. No level of care, love, and affection is capable of rewiring their brains. Unfortunately studies have shown that certain persons brains are abnormal compared to the rest of society and no amount of cognitive therapy is capable or reversing that process.

On the other hand parents that actively allow their children to misbehave and do whatever they please are to blame. Some of the younger parents, not all mind you, that I see all too often are of the notion and openly admit that they wish to be their child's friend instead of their parent. Those are the parents that do not believe in punishment for when their child misbehaves. In those cases if a child acts out and the child breaks a neighbors window by throwing stones at it, I do agree the parents as well as the child should be legally held responsible and serve a criminal penalty.

It's not that it shouldn't begin at home - it's that it has to be consistent. It has to be at home AND at school, because young children are incapable of understanding a punishment that happens 6 hours after the behavior. Parents and teachers need to work together so that punishment follows immediately after the bad behavior. By the time they are old enough to understand that acting up in school means being grounded that night, it's too late.

Unfortunately, they don't allow teachers to punish children (or they don't want to deal with it - I can't speak for them), and by the time the kid gets home, it's too late for the parents to make an impression. Hell, it's practically illegal to punish your child.

Both parents and teachers need to be on top of it right away.

No one seems to have the right to "discipline" children anymore, which is half the problem. I've said before and I'll say it again, the rights of the innocent to be able to live safely in society prevail the rights of these low-lives who want to and have cause people harm.

i don't think the schools should be the ones doing the disciplining--the parent's should. and beating your kids does not equal respect--it equals fear. you can teach a child morals without teaching them to flinch every time you enter a room

I want to instill in my kids to respect their elders, yet be able to distinguish between being respectful and trusting their elders. There are too many sick f***s in positions of authority that abuse those positions and what punishment do these individuals really get? Abusive teachers simply get reassigned to a different school. Cops get reassigned districts. So what are we really teaching our children in today's society? I want my kids to learn these two things. Respect should be first given. Trust should be first earned.

The schools? That our problem right there...Its not the school's job...its the parents job! Learn how to be a parent, teach them or someone else will and with less than wonderful results. Children NEED rules, structure, morals, etc...

Roscoe2u said it all. I for one don't want these animals let out to do harm to someone else. They should thank the justice system for sparing their worthless lives.

Really how has that been working I do not remeber this kind of thing happening in the 60's and 70's when parents were still allowed to take a hand to the butt when they acted up. I can tell you I feared what my dad would do to me if I acted up so I did not act up and I had no problems a little fear goes a long way to keeping a child in line.

Its a difficult and sad situation. Many lives are ruined. Since the first victims are not there to speak for themselves, their families should be there to speak for them. If those convicted can obtain the forgiveness from them to be released early and the convicted have been "rehabilitated" then I would be ok with a release. If however, the families of the true victims can no be obtained, then release should not be given. RWEvans, you are indeed a lucky man. I am glad you have taken advantage of the gift you have been given. You do have a heavy burden to carry, and it will hopefully remind you the rest of your life what the costs can be for poor choices. I would never change places with you, I am not sure I would be able to carry it.

RwEvans: It took courage to post here-I thank you for your honesty. You have been given a second chance-USE this as an opportunity to clean up the wreckage of your past-GIVE BACK-you have a powerfull experience to share with others: perhaps counseling troubled youth, or saving lives by running blood for the Red Cross-PLEASE TRY TO GIVE BACK and make amends as much as possible....perhaps to the family of your victim (ONLY IF they agree) Seriously-it's not enough to become a happy husband and father....YOU MUST MAKE RESTITUTION for the harm you have caused-you can not change the past but you can show your gratitude for your freedom & life by HELPING OTHERS -Every life you help to save, every child you can be a positive influence on, all contributes to your soul's growth.............. God is merciful to the TRULY REPENTANT...........

Rw...the load you will bear the rest of your life will be significant if you truly are repentant for your crime. If you are not then there are those that carry no burdens for their actions, no matter how horrific. However you being free is and was due to the correctional system in your state plain and simple, and a small part from you. Use it well but beware of the difficulties like you encounter here with the keyboard warriors of newsvine...lots of bullies but in reality they are most likely cowards....my wisdom of 70 years.

Prevailing Christian wisdom is that forgiveness is totally in your right as a repentent Christian. If you are not then nothing matters because the vale of cheap retoric by humans is totally useless and lost on deaf ears, as in the end nothing matters for the non believers.

If these criminals get a "second chance" and get out soon, well then, Dexter will get them....

It never ceases to amaze me how almost excited people in this country get to PUNISH and JUDGE other people. Especially children.

People that walk around their head held high, nose in the air, thinking they are better than everybody else, really need to take a look at themselves. Those kind of people. The very kind that are posting on this board with such hate and disdain for CHILDREN that have made a very horrible mistake, well, they are just awful.

I understand it is a HORRIBLE thing some of these CHILDREN have done. However they are just that CHILDREN!!! They can certainly be fixed.

Judge not lest you be judged.

And @Chris-749391 WELL SAID!!!!

Dexter only exists in books and television shows. Also most of the serial killers he offed were abused as youngsters, so even if he did exist in real life, he wouldn't do anything about these children criminals.

I don't buy the excuse that their brain isn't fully developed and because of that they don't know what murder is at that age. That's utter horse crap. I knew from a much younger age what death was and what is right and wrong. I may have pulled stupid stunts thinking I was invincible but I NEVER considered killing someone. The creeps that did this deserve the time in jail for as long as is allowed, the excuse 'they where only children' is just that, an excuse.

Philip: Goodness me, your policy of killing people who advocate for young people reminds me of something the Taliban would do.

The number of people who vehemently condemn the taking of human life, turn right around and justify taking someone else's - whether it be the convicted, or in this case, anyone who even advocates for them - would be almost laughable, if it didn't seem so frighteningly characteristic of the average American mentality.

Let me think you want these monster's back on the street, so if this is the case then you should take the responsibility for them if they commit a crime then you should be punished too. If you are so sure they will be rehablitated then this should not be a problem, because I for one would be willing to do bodily harm to all the bleeding hearts out there if somebody that was released from prison because of the age they were convicted and then killed someone close to me, there are always going to be a couple that will stay on the straight and narrow but there will be more that will go back to doing violent crimes again and there is not one person who can say for sure they know who will do what. The fact still remains these were murders by very violent 14 year old people not kids and should have been executed but that option was taken away so life in prison is the only option.

Unemployeed&tired

The few who stay on the straight and narrow shouldn't have their chances taken away because the majority goes back to violence. Whenever you let any convicted murderer out of prison on parole, you're taking a chance. How do you separate the ones who will not and will commit a violent crime once released? You can't go by how many years they served in prison. Or how rehabilitation courses they've taken. They all committed the same crime:; murder

Your logic makes me think of Majority/Mob rule. Just because the Majority of people think something is right, doesn't make it so.

I am just amazed how many Americans are so fond of revenge that they can't see giving a kid another chance, when studies show that recidivism by young people after a term in prison generally goes up based on the length of the sentence and also on whether the young person is incarcerated in an adult prison or whether they serve their time in a juvenile prison. I am also troubled, because 40 years ago, when the crime rate was more than double of what it is today, it was extremely rare for a juvenile offender to receive a sentence for a crime of longer than 10-15 years no matter what the crime was. Back then the crime rate was high because of an over-abundance of young "baby boomers" , official naivete, and a general lack of supervision, but that circumstance isn't the case any longer either.

In fact, in the early and mid-1970s, in my home State of Michigan, the average adult sentence for a single murder then was 20 years to life, and an especially heinous murderer might have received a sentence of 30 years to life, in both cases with parole possible after 2/3rds of the sentence. Back then, younger adults without a lengthy juvenile criminal record were often given somewhat of a break from longer prison sentences too, and back then there was no jurisdictional jumping or "trying as an adult" based on the severity of the accusation of crime. It should also be noted that Michigan outlawed the death penalty in the 1870s too, and as such I am a person who believes that the State needs to maintain a higher standard of conduct than the individual population at-large, which includes not killing our own citizens for a revenge or an example motive.

As a person involved in online crisis counseling of adults abused as children as well as several young people in current abuse situations, including several that were additionally victimized as children by the adult justice system, as well as a victim of multiple-offender emotional, physical, and sexual abuse growing-up, and one of Oprah Winfrey's 200 men from her shows on the subject in the Fall of 2010, I am well aware of how difficult a prospect that a full recovery from such victimization is.

In my own case I both violently acted-out against others as well as against myself inwardly too. I was prone to a serious illegal drug and alcohol habit, and most of my friends were also victims of childhood abuse too. By 1973 I was a violent street gang member with a fondness for intimidation, high-speed reckless driving, getting even, and late-night vandalism sprees, almost all of which seemed to happen with very little aforethought, in fact a lot of what I did just seemed to happen with absolutely no thought for anyone else or any potential consequences, and I served a couple of short sentences in juvenile facilities for my violent tendencies through 1976 too, after absolutely nobody was able to recognize what all of my symptoms actually meant. I was also so wounded by what had happened to me growing-up that by my late 20s I was virtually alone, still too wounded to take a chance on intimacy too.

I am one of the lucky ones, as I was able to find experienced help for the victims of childhood physical and sexual abuse by the mid-1980s, (actually quite a rarity then) and I continued in recovery on and off for a number of years, finally finding my way to greatly improved self-esteem and sobriety by the late 1990s, and since then my life has come full circle, from living in the worst part of town, unable to hold a job for very long, always high as a kite on hard drugs, to working on the same job for 10 years, owning not one but three brand-new upscale suburban homes over the last 12 years, and serving for 3 years as an online childhood victimization crisis counselor and recovery mentor as a layperson, similar in some respects to that of a senior sponsor in AA. I am now married to the woman of my dreams, the step-dad to three young adult sons, and a grandfather now too. As my good eyesight abandoned me and then forced me from a 30-year career as a semi driver three years ago, I have picked-up the pieces and have returned to college, where I am now just a few classes from completing my BA, just 36 years after I first started in higher education, a chance that was quickly destroyed in 1976 by my out-of-control self-hatred and substance abuse.

Given my background and my lengthy and very difficult struggle to quit hating myself and others, and move beyond what was done to me to a position where I was substantially free of my past and my self-esteem had improved enough to give-up the crutches that had gotten me to that point, and, given my experience over my three years working to undo the same effects in others, I have a very difficult time when a majority of Americans seem to favor inflicting abusive treatment on juvenile criminals, many of whom are themselves victims of many years of childhood victimization.

I feel we as adults all too often forget what life as a teenager was like, even in the best of circumstances. Many kids are put-up to commit criminal offenses by peers in an attempt to look "cool" or in an attempt to avoid the scorn of their peers, or to avoid being thought of as a sissy, and there is virtually no aforethought or rationalization over what might be considered "right" or "wrong" or any thought given to potential consequences either. Most young criminals also are naive about the chance of getting caught too, and that isn't something that is going to change by destroying a few young lives as an example to others either.

Another thing that I find rather odd about the majority stance on the subject of punishment for young criminals is that we stand virtually alone among the nations of the world on this subject. How does being a member of a crowd that only includes just Iran, Syria, and China make you feel? None of Europe or Russia, where a majority of America's population traces their ancestry to, treats younger offenders anywhere near as severe as much of the US does. In Europe the average sentence for a juvenile convicted of murder is 10 years, not in an adult prison either. Why do we Americans so seem to need revenge instead of rehabilitation for younger offenders? Do any of you know how hard that it is for a kid thrown into an adult prison to ever enjoy a normal life again?

I'll agree that older juvenile and young adult offenders should be deemed more-responsible for their actions than younger juveniles are, and I would like to propose the creation of an intermediate judicial division that would serve older juveniles and young adults, where the purpose would be more focused on rehabilitation and eventual release rather than on how much pain that we can inflict on an offender in the hope that such an example might influence the behavior of others.

I can certainly see a sentence of 10-15 years of punishment and rehabilitation for an older kid from a rotten background who crosses a line into murder. I can't see any more than that if there is to be any good hope of that person ever being able to rebuild their life and be a productive citizen again. The longer that a sentence for a young person is, the less chance that they will ever become a productive citizen again, and the greater the chance that they will be forced back into criminal behavior too.

I certainly don't think that a maximum 10-15 year sentence in a prison situation designed for young adults who will eventually be asked to re-enter society and become productive citizens is getting away with anything, and I also feel that such a program would save us from a lot more misery on down the road. My guess is that almost all of us were given lots of extra chances and the benefit of the doubt based on our age when we were younger, I'm quite sure that a lot of us as young people got away with things that would have incurred harsh penalties if we were caught at today, and I strongly feel that any young person convicted of any crime deserves another chance at life as an adult after an appropriate-length term in a rehabilitation facility, where the treatment of the inmates is designed around eventual release rather than as abusively as is possible. If anyone who exits such a program is again convicted of serious violent crime, then I would have much less of a problem with treating them with harsh sanctions too.

I very strongly believe that America can't be very proud of where we stand today on this issue, as a member of a very small, very angry, and very violent club, and I strongly believe that it is long past time for us to rejoin the rest of the world in our treatment of older juvenile and younger adult offenders, focusing our efforts on rehabilitation and eventual release instead of on inflicting the most abuse possible on such young people. I fully realize that victims of criminal behavior are still victims no matter the age of the victimizer too.

As someone who has seen both sides of this equation, and who suffered greatly for many years as a result of my own victimization, I still just can't see the need for revenge against young people myself. Do you realize that none of the people who victimized me has ever served a day in jail for what they did even though they were all adults when they victimized me? No, by the time that I cared enough about myself to perhaps want to press charges or seek civil redress, the statute of limitations had long run out. I have to wonder how many other victims that there are because these people got away with what they did to me. Yet, even though I suffered greatly for many years, I am not given to a revenge bent either, and I really don't see why anyone else needs to be either, especially directed against young people, when there is a very good chance to rehabilitate such offenders and have them become productive citizens later in life.

Anyone who wants revenge so badly I strongly feel could use some help themselves, as they just don't understand how difficult the recovery process from youthful victimization is.

Old Timer, you appear to be an intelligent and compassionate person who has learned from his own experiences. My question is this. If The Supreme Court decides that life sentences are unconstitutional for youthful offenders who have committed murder and that they should not receive more than say 10-15 years, then one of these released persons murders your grandchild, would your view change or would you just accept the murder as an acceptable loss for societal conscience?

Even if rehabilitation of these murdering youthful offenders had an unbelievable success rate of only 5% recidivism then that is still too high, in my opinion. If they wish to have a chance at redemption then they should find it in prison with volunteer work and/or religion but they should not be released.

-- Mike S.,

That is why there should be mandatory life sentences, or death penalty in the States where eligible, for all people who commit murder. That way there is a 0% chance that they will ever murder another innocent citizen. I am not concerned with whether or not a murderer CAN be rehabilitated. I am concerned with whether or not the law abiding citizens should expect to be protected from people who have committed murder and might murder again if given the "second chance".

No Ron, my view will not change based on what one person, or even some percentage of people do. I will stick-up for the 90% and try to give them another chance, and if 10% ruin that chance, then I will have a lot less of a problem with what happens to them then.

What we are doing now is legalized child abuse, plain and simple. I have had the pleasure and the heartbreak of trying to work with several youthful victims of the justice system's penchant for making brutal examples of young people accused of serious crimes, and I feel strongly that we are making a huge mistake here.

Do all adult murderers get life without parole? No. So why would we need to give a kid of 14 life without parole for a single murder, when if we were to instead spend enough money to treat them for their behavior in a kinder setting, with an eventual goal of release, there is a much better chance that they might be successful than there is for adult offenders. Don't even try to give me the pat conservative argument that these kids should have known "right from wrong" or that they should have been able to consider the consequences of their actions or their chances of getting caught in an adult manner. Why don't we don't let kids of 14 drive or even sign contracts if they should be held to an adult standard when criminal behavior is concerned?

If we are going to operate a juvenile justice system I strongly feel that access to that system should not be denied based on the severity of accusation of criminal behavior, as jumping jurisdictions tends to deny a youthful suspect of his rights as a juvenile. Here in America we are presumed innocent until we are found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, so why should only juveniles accused of serious crimes have their juvenile rights taken away? I would have far less of a problem giving juvenile court judges increased sentencing latitude than I would with denying a kid access to the juvenile justice system based on an accusation of a serious crime. Also, do not even try to give me that horse-pucky about some crimes being "adult" crimes no matter of the age of the perpetrator.

Just two months ago a young man that I had worked with for almost 4 years committed suicide, because his father and older cousin had been continuously abusive toward him his entire life. Are they going to trial for what they did? His dad used to regularly beat this young man, who was 18 & 1/2 when he chose to end his pain, and his cousin, who was 11 years older, 8 inches taller, and 60 lbs heavier, used to sexually assault the young man in question whenever he felt like it. Nope, sorry, so far there have been no charges brought, now more than a year since the police were first notified of what was going on, back when this young man was still alive. But, you are saying, if this young man had instead killed his cousin, (something that I would be willing to do right now), that he should not be given another chance at life?

I also once worked with another young man, a victim of the rush to get even with juveniles accused of "adult" crimes. This young man had an abusive, physically-violent, and neglectful upbringing, with his father being a violent unemployable alcoholic, and his mother one of the classic women too afraid to do anything about it. At the age of 16 he went along on a joyride when his 20 year old brother stole a car, and Vermont chose to try him as an adult. While he only served 20 months of a 3-year sentence, the damage was done in a really big way, as less than a year later he was prostituting himself in Hollywood to survive (as nobody was willing to take a chance on a felony offender) and to fund his massive addiction to alcohol and illegal drugs, (before he was incarcerated in an adult prison he had never even used illegal drugs). He was so far gone that he didn't even know what the words self-esteem even meant. His entire life to that point had been about how much abuse that he could take to survive.

I ended-up taking a chance on him. I gave him a 100-ft head start to run-off with the $100 radar detector that was sitting on the dash of my semi, and he was still there when I got back. I kept giving him bigger chances and he never burned me. No, he was basically in great need of someone willing to take a chance, and someone to care. Yes, I did layout some of my own money for food and clothing. In just a few weeks I had vouched for him to a friend and he had a job, and a couple of months later he was living with a couple of guys from work. It wasn't nearly as easy as it sounded, as when I met him, he had a 2 or 3 fifth's of liquor per day habit, but we worked on his self-esteem and we worked on trying to move him beyond what had happened to him in the past, and I will admit that my friend gave him the benefit of the doubt a couple of times too. Yes, it was a rocky road for a while, but because several people I knew were willing to try to rebuild this kid's self-esteem, as time went on his life greatly improved.

Today that young man owns his own HVAC business and employs a dozen people, and it never would have happened if someone wasn't willing to give him another chance when he was really down, someone who was willing to care, someone who knew a little bit about child abuse recovery even then, and to stick with him through thick and thin too. And, what happened to Joe in regard to the State of Vermont needed not have happened in the first place, as there is absolutely no good reason to try a 16 year old as an adult for joyriding in a stolen car either, unless what you really want is to try to destroy the young person in question.

So Ron, you are willing to destroy 95% just to prevent the other 5% from committing another crime? Who made you God? "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". Are you one of those perfect types who has never done anything wrong? My guess is most likely not.

Actually, I have never committed a misdemeanor nor a felony. I have never been arrested. If cops came busting through my door I would assume they were not real cops and shoot them in self defense because I have never done anything that could get me arrested. I may not be perfect but I don't break the law.

And this 5% committing another crime being the crime of murder? Yes, I am willing to keep the theoretical and impossibly high 95% of murderers who could be reformed in prison for life.

I would be willing to lay my life savings on the line to bet that if all murderers were released that at least half of them would murder again and likely multiple times.

There were 2 teenagers in Texas who carjacked 2 tourists (husband and wife), put them in the trunk, went for a joyride, parked the car on a back road and set it on fire. They were tried as juveniles and incarcerated until their 21st birthday. If I had the power, I would have sentenced them to immediate execution. Some people, because of the heinous crimes they commit, will NEVER deserve a second chance, in my opinion.

Never cheated on your taxes or drove a little of over the speed limit? Never buried used motor oil in the backyard just like dad used to do?

Here is one of many reasons that I can not possibly consider mixing juvenile killers with adult prisoners. Here are 101 cases where the Northwestern University Law School has managed to get the convictions of 101 young people (some as young as age 12 and plenty under age 17), convicted of rape or murder overturned. Imagine what happens to a juvenile who is railroaded through the adult judicial system and into an adult prison falsely? These 101 convictions were overturned mainly because someone else was eventually proven to be the actual criminal.

http://cwcy.org/exonereesView.aspx

Here is another reason that I can not possibly support such draconian sentences for young criminals. Juveniles sentenced to adult prisons are many times as likely to be raped as adult prisoners are, which also puts these young people at a much greater risk for having HIV or Hepatitis-C forced onto them as a result too:

http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2010/jan/07/the-crisis-of-juvenile-prison-rape-a-new-report/

The problem isn't just that some juvenile murderers have been sentenced to prison terms as long as life without parole, some of them for a first violent offense or because they were accessories instead of being the actual shooter. There are close to 10,000 people in adult prisons now for crimes that they committed as juveniles, and roughly 80% of these are not there for murder either. Did you know that it is quite common these days to sentence a kid of 14 to 50 years in jail for a crime which is not murder? At a cost today of $40K annually, each one of these kids will cost taxpayers $2 million to keep in jail that long. Not only that, but no other western democracy or even the former Soviet Union would incarcerate such kids for any more than 1/5th as long as us vengeful types seem to think is necessary here to prove how angry that only some of us are at kids.

I most certainly hope and pray that the Supreme Court finds a way to pull us back from the brink and eliminates the practice of trying juveniles as adults below the age of 15 or 16 minimum, and also mandates cutting the sentences of young criminals aged 16 and 17, to half or less of what their current sentences are. I strongly believe in providing an early release incentive for good behavior, and I also believe that young adults aged 18-21 who do not have a previous violent felony should be given the benefit of the doubt and be given a 2nd chance at living a normal life too.

Check-out the Colorado Youthful Offender System, which both provides for longer sentences than the juvenile justice system allows, and also provides for much more in the way of therapy, education, and job skills training than the adult justice system allows for too. The YOS system gives older juveniles and young adults a 2nd chance for crimes as serious as 3rd-degree felonies, and my own feeling is that violent behavior in young people is as treatable as any other serious human health issue and that with the right kind of therapy and treatment in a much more humane and supportive system, that a large percentage of such youthful offenders can successfully be treated and be released to live normal and productive adult lives. As such I strongly feel that all juveniles convicted of a serious violent felony are potentially treatable, and that all such juveniles and even first-time violent young adults deserve another chance at life.

Perhaps part of the money saved from treating and releasing such offenders after sentences of short to medium duration could be put into a fund to compensate any victims of repeat offenders too? There must be a much better and more-humane way than throwing the key away on the 90% of kids that can be successfully treated and released just to protect us from the 10% that re-offend.

In my own will is a notarized statement that if a young person under the age of 21 is involved in a serious crime against me and I die as a result, that such a kid not be tried as an adult and/or be allowed to plead guilty to a lesser offense with the hope that the 2nd chance that I would want to provide to such a young person would be successful. But, I am not one of these people that thinks that any kid who makes a serious mistake should be brutalized for it for the rest of their lives either.

Ron: Here is another lengthy study of juvenile offenders who have been raped, physically and sexually abused, and even sexually tortured in our prison system that I would like you to look through:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/mar/11/the-rape-of-american-prisoners/?pagination=false

No juvenile offender should be subjected to this kind of abuse, period, and I really don't care how serious the offense that they were convicted of was either. Just remember the 101 young people whose convictions were overturned and ask yourself if the way that we are treating such kids is justified, or if what we have been doing is as serious a human rights violation as any human rights violation anywhere in the world.

Why is the solution always to spank your children? I have an 18 year old son and a 14 year old daughter. My son is graduating high school and going to college. My daughter is a straight A student who hopes to become a criminal profiler. My kids have learned right from wrong, have managed to not kill anyone, have compassion and are able to form independent ideas. And I never spanked them. Maybe that means I'm a better parent then those who have to resort to physical violence to get their kids on the straight and narrow? And, I grew up with a parent who believed on using a belt on her kids. It taught me how NOT to parent, though I did turn out just fine. The difference with my kids, is my kids are not fearful of me and are willing to talk to me about issues without fearing repercussion.

I believe that discipline and respect do not have to include spanking. There are, however, some kids that no matter how many time-outs, groundings, reduced priveleges, they will not learn their lesson until they are spanked. My sister was one of those kids. Only a spanking got through to her.

And on those occasions, when spanking becomes a last resort, parents should not be punished for disciplining their children.

Too many parents don't even discipline in a non-violent way. They seem to equate "not spanking" with "let them do whatever they want".

mb - A kid that cannot be "reached" indicates other means need to be tried - and if you can't figure it out, get help from a therapist who DOES have some ideas.

Spanking teaches something. "Might is right", fear, distrust, and conniving.

Hopefully she turned out ok in the end.

That said, time and time again - these whacked out juvenile offenders are not spanked - they are BEATEN. No food in the house. Drug environment - perhaps even in utero (good luck with that). Ever go to the juvenile hall? I did, for a class interview. People don't WANT to know what is going on behind closed doors against kids. Stop the juvenile system's secrecy - air the dirty laundry - let society know what's going on and fix it.

I hate to ruin your idea of punishment but most kids who are violent have been raised in homes or environments that use corporate punishment.

Clarice crews

I hate to ruin your idea of punishment but most kids who are violent have been raised in homes or environments that use corporate punishment.

LOL! Yeah...corporate punishment in the home seems a bit harsh for kids.

@Clarice crews : Strange how my brothers and sisters got corporate punishment as youngsters and how bad we did turn !!!! : An engineer, a lawyer, a nurse and a civil servant after a university degree in accounting.

Funny that the only one of us who is a mess is the last one that was born when my parents were in their forties, didn't get spanked, never got corporte punishment, and was spoiled and allowed to do things that we (the older kids) were never allowed to do and is one of the most selfish person I know, and has a violent mean streak.

Oh and I should add that we are all married, have children that have reached adulthood and are productive members of society. The only one that is not married, that has never held a long term job is the youngest.

So that should blow away your theory.

I should add that

Corporal punishment...not "Corporate" so which one are you? the Engineer, the lawyer or the nurse? ;-)

oh, okay, well let's just let them all out and see if they kill anyone else! (eye roll)

I agree. Jackson didn't actually kill anyone, or tell the boy with the gun to kill the clerk. Life in prison seems pretty harsh for knocking over a liquor store as a teenager. The other kids intentionally and brutally murdered people, and they deserve what they got.

While my first instinct is to say "lock 'em up & throw away the key," I have to wonder what is so wrong about giving them parole hearings. Even Manson & his crew get parole hearings. Seriously, would any parole board actually grant parole to a girl who killed the people who took care of her and tried to murder her 10 year old sister? If they did, imagine the lawsuit that would result if she even looked at someone crooked. If the idea of being able to apply for parole "some day" (and I would expect them to serve the number of years an adult would for the same crime) gives them reason to try to better themselves, where's the downside? They are still in prison, no one is screaming that it is unfair, and the victims' families can show up at every parole hearing to make certain the powers-that-be know how awful the crime was and how it still affects them.

TJ, the thing is, even though Jackson was there and wasn't 'armed,' he KNEW what was going on and DIDN'T stop the murder from taking place OR inform the authorities, so in effect was an accessory to the crime and is to be charged in the same severity as the person who actually did it. That being said, I personally believe though he didn't kill the person himself, he should receive a sentence other than 'life,' maybe 20 with possible parole coinciding with rehabilitation processes and reviews. Those who are habitual criminals, and are stuck in that revolving door of paroles, THEY should be locked up for life, as they are not viable humans to society.

You're correct on that one, T.J. He should NOT be locked up for life, he did NOT commit murder nor did he have anything to do with the planning of it. He was probably scared sh*tless.

Kero, they are developed enough to know what they are doing. They know they are killing another human being. It's just that NOW they don't think they deserve the punishment they received. TOO BAD.

I might question the boy who didn't actually kill anyone. HE might be worthwhile to save. The rest of those animals. Leave them in the cage where they belong.

What difference does it make if they understood their actions or not? They are not in prison to learn, they are in prison to be kept away from people.

I believe a child understand the difference between right and wrong by age 10. i agree their brains and understanding might not be fully developed at 17 which might be the reason why they don't fully get the effect of their actions (to themselves and others) They know they are doing something illegal but they might believe they will get away with it or not being fully punished because they are not adults.

That being said, I think a lot has to be said for the parents of these kids? where were they? what kind of parenting involvement they had, were they drug addicts, were the kids in & out of foster care, were they involved with any hate groups, etc? I'm in no way justifying their killings but I'm trying to say that these kids could be product of a system.

And don't get me started on spanking

@Wordweevil: How dare you bring science and rationality into this! That might get in the way of everyone spouting righteous indignation!

Spoken like a true person who can recite words from a text book, but can't understand that REAL LIFE exists outside of your selective little world. I don't know what's scarier. The fact that you seem to defend the irrational actions of violent juvenile individuals based off of the scientific opinion of a hand full of scientists instead of using your own cognitive ability to consider that perhaps this society wouldn't be going to hell if people were held accountable for their actions instead of implementing a victim mentality, or advocating the use of "reprogramming" methods of rehabilitation.

And Mike, you do realize that commenting about people spouting their righteous indignation is being righteously indignant, right? Did I miss the sarcasm in your post?

Wordweevil I wonder would you fill the same if it was your parents they killed it is easy to sit on the side line and post but as the family member said they should stay in prison till they die. I bet there would be a lot of posters would fill diffrent if it was there child or parent that was murdered in such a violent way.

Charges should fit the crime and the individual. Kids don't think the same way as adults. Young teens are more likely to drive reckless than adults, so should they lose their license for life when they get in trouble? Some people think they should, even though their is a high chance of change that comes with older age. Young kids don't take a lot of society's rules and laws seriously and sending a message of life without parole for heinous crimes won't change their position. there are some instances where a young individual shouldn't get a chance, but that would be up to a psychiatrist/psychologist to determine if their salvageable.

Janman,

The flaw in your logic is that when teenagers drive recklessly, they know they're doing something wrong. Many laws are posted on the side of the road, and you have to take a test to get the privilege to drive. If you drive recklessly, you get caught, you get a ticket or whatever. Regardless of your age, if you continue to exhibit that behavior, the state can and will take away your privilege to drive.

Now even though the laws about not killing anyone aren't posted on the side of the road, and you don't have to take a test to prove that you know that, it doesn't mean that people should expect leniency because they're young.

I, along with many other Americans sick of violent predators, would have NO PROBLEM with the DEATH PENALTY for juvenile murderers, so they should be happy their sorry a$$es aren't on death row. I'd have no problem with a judicial revue of some of their cases after TWENTY YEARS, after which it might be time to consider modifying their sentences

From what I read, Jackson and Miller are less than a decade into their terms, so there's no way I support anything that keeps them from spending AT LEAST another decade in prison. Burning alive is a horrible way to die, and nothing their victim did to them justified their actions.

I believe any child over the age of about 6 years old knows that killing is wrong, so there's no way I'm going to support lessening the sentences for the crimes committed by the folks listed before they've done at least a two decade stretch, and as far as the purely evil girl, Ashley Jonesl who murdered and burned her Grandfather and Aunt and tried to kill her 10 YEAR OLD sister, she should be in prison AT LEAST FIFTY YEARS before there is any thought of a judicial review of her case. An absolute LOSER and it is a CRIME she was not eligible for the Death Penalty (Zero Repeat Offenders since 1977).

If any of these "redeemed" young adults ever do get released, my only hope is if they return to their evil ways, their next attempt to make some innocent person a victim is their last, because that "victim" KILLS THEM, and spares us the drama of hearing how a life sentence for murder is "cruel and unusual punishment" !! My other thought on releasing them is if they do successfully kill someone once released, it's one of the DIP$H*T losers who think society should have to accept them back into it, after they've shown they more than deserve to spend much or all of the remainder of their lives IN PRISON, to protect said society from them !!

It's odd how none of us were fully developed mentally as teenagers, yet until the last generation or so, teenagers seemed to know that murder was wrong. Maybe a little spanking puts a shock into the brain causing those unconnected circuits to reconnect somehow....lol.

wordweevil

So what needs to be done is reprogram the parents of these kids and make the parents do 10-15 years along with the kids.

I remember I read a few years ago about a 4 year old who shot his father because he wouldn't take him to McDonalds. I guess they should've just executed the 4 year old.

"BUT MIKE! He was only 4! still a baby!"

Exactly. A 14 year olds brain is not fully developed either. Do they know the difference between right and wrong? Of course they do. But teenagers act on impulse without thinking about the consequences.

Me either....that was my exact question. I know a boy personally that was 2 days shy of his 17 birthday, got drunk, drove, hit a vehicle with mother and 3 kids and killed a the 5 year old passenger. He got 90 in a juvinelle detention center. Since then he has been arrested again for DWI, drugs, assault...you name it he has done it. Finally he got 2 years for probation violation! He'll serve 1 for good behavior if thats possible for him and then start on a terrible road again! The justice system makes no sense to me at all! By the way, it was a hit and run accident....cops found him hiding under his bed!!!

yea and he should of got life but the bleeding hearts out there think that would be to harsh, the problem with society is everybody can be reabilitated to be part of society. The fact is if you take a life because you are drunk and driven or you murder someone you should forfiet your right to live, this would make people think twice before the go out and drink and then get behind the wheel of a car or motorcycle. Take a friend who is not going to drink or give the bar tender your keys and pick them up the next and take a cab home, but as long as people get out in a year or two for killing someone when driving drunk then people will not change make the penalty so severe they may think twice before they start drinking or they just stay home to get drunk.

I agree. Certainly by age 14 my kids knew not to bludgeon, shoot, stab, or beat people to death. Their brains may not have been fully developed, but their values were. I don't believe these murderous kids will ever be productive citizens. They will live their life on the public dole anyway, so let them do it in prison, and keep the rest of us safe. It amazes me that Quantell thinks his sentence is too severe - he took someone's life. That is proof enough that he doesn't get it.

I totally agree with ya Zack, that is the "Tale of the Tape". Are these, so called "advocates" willing to place their lives and the lives of their own to prove a point!

They are saying that these murderers were too young and they didn't know what they were doing, well let them out to live with them, they want them, they can have them. Next news headline will read, "Advocate for youth muderers, murdered by youth murderers!". These people knew exactly what they were doing at the time they were doing it but now they are grasping at straws to get themselves out. They did it because they believed that they would never be caught and should they be caught, they relied on their age to get them off.

Way too bad the death penalty is off the table, these examples of worthless human life should be put down so that these other people, who want them out, won't have a soapbox to take up time in their own wasted lives...

Agreed .Regardless of the present state of maturity ,or their repentance for their crimes ,we -as a society should never let people who commit certain types of crimes out on the streets again .

I must ask, then: Should they be allowed to live on my dime until they either die of old age or get killed in prison?

If its my money, i say no. Put them on an isolated island and let them have at it, with no help from the outside. If they can survive, great. If not, great.

They want to act like animals, lets treat them as such.

What concern me if these young criminals are giving a 2nd chance, what message are we sending out? Do the crime and get out by the time you hit an adult age. This article states; "More than 2,200 people nationwide have been sentenced to life imprisonment without parole for crimes they committed as juveniles"

What would the number be if they were to get out of their life sentence by adult age?

RwEvans - thank you for being honest and telling your story. I am glad that you are a success story after serving your time in prison. Since none of us know your story, we have no right to judge you. Prison is supposed to be about rehabilitating those who will one day get out. Obviously those who sentenced you to prison felt that you deserved a second chance. Justice was served and now you have that chance. The system worked.

Chris-629698 - I am appalled that you would condemn someone when you dont know their story. Yes there are some who do not deserve a second chance but since you were not on the jury, it was not your decision to make. Before you throw stones, think about you would feel if your child was faced with the same thing at 14. And before you point a finger at someone else, remember that three more are pointing back at you.

I have a masters degree in criminal justice and most cases involving children are not cut and dry. There are many circumstances involved. For example, environment plays a big part in how a child will turn out. Instead of condemning them as throw-aways, how about working to save them when you realize they are living in circumstances that could affect their lives forever.

In case you did not know, children are abused and mistreated quite frequently and the saying that "you are a product of your environment is sometimes true". As adults, we are failing our children and then when they commit crimes, we just want to throw them away. Where were you when they were crying for help? Where were you when they needed a safe haven to run too? Each child convicted have a story to tell. We just need to start listening and getting involved before the system takes over.

Pissed: It doesn't really matter what you say, it matters what the law says. Incidentally, it costs more to execute convicts than to incarcerate them. Don't blame me, I'm just looking out for your precious dime.

RW ,

You say you spent 14 years in prision and now your out and life's peachy . You left out the 1

thing people like you forget , THEIR VICTIM ! Not 1 word did you mention them or say that

you are sorry . Ill say it for you , your sorry . I apoligise but thats yhe fact . You people are never

sorry you did it , only that you were caught . God bless your victim's soul and yours .

Zach, prisons are not warehouses for throwing people away. If somebody needs to be removed from society, sending them to prison is not the way to do it. That's a cop-out.

Allright MC I'll tell you what... Let's let them out, and since you seem to think they do not need be "wharehoused" let's let them live in your neighborhood. However this time when it is one of your family or yourself killed or robbed or whatever we let them out with 1 privso.. You commit another violent crime.. You get the death penalty with no appeal, and sentence carried out immedately after conviction. Now would that make you feel much better