Mom of Iraq War vet who killed sister, self also feared dead

Police have called off the search for a California woman believed to have been killed by her son, an Iraq War veteran who last week killed his 11-year-old sister and then himself, officials said.

The man, Abel Gutierrez, 27, had recently returned from a second tour. His body and that of his 11-year-old sister were found last week in his mother's apartment in Gilroy, Calif., the San Francisco Chronicle reported.

His mother, Martha Gutierrez, has not been seen since her children’s deaths, police told the Los Angeles Times. Their bodies were found in the family’s apartment.


Police were called to the Gutierrez home last month after receiving neighbor complaints that Abel Gutierrez was angrily raging against the Taliban at night, the Chronicle reported. Relatives said that after his second tour, he would wake screaming and that he swore at people in public.

On Saturday, crews searched 30 miles of Santa Clara County, to no avail, the Chronicle reported.

But Abel Gutierrez’s Ford Mustang had evidence indicating there had been a violent confrontation, police said.

Family members had said Abel Gutierrez had suffered post-traumatic stress disorder.

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The war has come home to America.

  • 24 votes
Reply#1 - Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:04 PM EDT

Hey, Department of Defense, Veteran's Administration and ESPECIALLY, Congress ----- Start taking care of our active military and our veterans NOW. For generations, the finest of our youth have answered the call of our nation. All have given some and some have given all (not original words of mine). But for FAR TOO MANY of those returning back home, there is neglect, shoddy treatment and apathy. Military personnel are ignored by employers, neighbors and even the Veteran's Administration itself. On that last group, I can personally attest to. Overall, the Veterans Administration provides better than average medical care and the hospital staffs are very thoughtful and professional. It is the bureaucracy which lets veterans down. Instead of being advocates for veterans, the VA treats us like adversaries. Veterans are viewed with skepticism and substantial doubt by those viewing and hearing our claims. Most other agencies in this country give claimants wide latitude in hearings and decisions. Even the I.R.S. allows one to file taxes with sometimes questionable figures (dependents, etc.) and THEN looks into the meat, the actual facets of a filing. But the VA assumes that a veteran is hiding something, evading and even lying on his/her claim(s). Far too often, actual written medical evidence presented by a veteran's own VA doctors, is disputed by "outside and independent" (many, including myself would say "captive agents") personnel. When claims are disputed, the medical opinions of the VA medical staff are often questioned, downplayed or even completely ignored. Even the VA's OWN WRITTEN DIRECTIVES are ignored by hearing "officers" in spite of being given direct testimony by OBJECTIVE (VA medical staff) parties.

Far too many veterans give up when confronted by the hurdles and obstacles thrown up by the VA. Many other claimants die before their claims can be properly adjudicated. Funding for care is NOT mandated, but must be requested by veterans groups who have to come to Congress, hat in hand, literally begging for a handout (continued funding). The VA and Congress should be ashamed. Alas, they are not. Once out of the military, veterans are no longer valued, but viewed as "drains" on our federal budgets. Promises made to young men and women when they entered into the military are easily glossed over and ignored or forgotten entirely. Meanwhile, elected officials are all for raising the flag and hailing our youth serving, sending them off to battle with speeches hoopla and national pride, while conveniently declining to have served themselves or encouraging their offspring to serve. Some, perhaps many, will view my remarks as being nothing more than sour grapes at best. Well, maybe so. But the fact remains that everything I have mentioned in my statement is, in fact, the truth. Ask any veteran to comment on my words. I was proud to serve our great nation. I regret nothing of my service so many years ago (Viet Nam era). But far too many of my era have been shunted aside. The same is happening to our military of the middle east conflicts. We, all veterans, are hurt by the lack of true, thorough caring by our government after our we have met our obligations. The rest of our fellow citizens should be appalled and outraged by the manner in which military personnel and veterans are treated. Bring our troops, ALL OF THEM, back home, NOW !

  • 31 votes
#1.1 - Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:19 PM EDT

When my husband returned from Afghanistan, many soldiers with obvious medical issues were "encouraged" to sign medical waivers if they wanted to go home to their families. (I assume to avoid future disability payouts). Those that would not sign a waiver were sent to base housing where they could sit until they did sign one. He came home in October, but did not see his family until shortly before Christmas when he took leave (at our expense). It wasn't until he got a civilian advocate, that he finally saw progress on his treatment. While he is still on medical hold until all issues are resolved, he is finally being treated but only when we insisted he be transferred to a different de-mob station. There are good bases who are concerned for our vets and work with them to get the benefits they deserve, but there are many more who are swept aside with a "thank you, now get back to work so we can quit paying you." It truly is a disgrace. Public outrage fades until you see another headline like this one, and still the government denies it is responsible. We should all be ashamed.

  • 23 votes
#1.2 - Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:39 PM EDT

DisabledVeteran, observer, I agree 100%.

Desert Storm Vet, 300th FLD HOSP, Emergency, Pre-Op

  • 9 votes
#1.3 - Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:09 PM EDT

Hey, Department of Defense, Veteran's Administration and ESPECIALLY, Congress ----- Start taking care of our active military and our veterans NOW.

I think your entire post speaks for the vast majority of citizens in the US. Our political leaders are SUPPOSED to be representing us. But despite a lot of words, I've seen little evidence of anything substantive having been accomplished when it comes to establishing procedures for recognizing & caring for our soldiers & getting them out of the battlefield & in treatment immediately at the first signs of stress-related issues before they are too far gone to be helped & before they do something to themselves or others.

There is far too much macho posturing in the military with an antiquated view that you can't show any weakness in yourself & you can't respond to it in others beyond a "walk it off" attitude. It's way past time for the military to grow up & get with the 21st century.

Having a REAL set of balls means having the guts to break the mold when it needs to be broken, not being a little plastic pop-out of a soldier who only follows orders & never questions authority or the status quo even when it means ignoring serious issues (especially psychological ones) in the men around you or under your command...or in yourself.

It takes a REAL man to do the right thing & doing the right thing means speaking up & taking care of & getting care for the mental health of our soldiers when those issue first begin to occur. And most certainly it means getting them out of the theater of war immediately.

Republican & Democrats, our representatives AND our voters, are you listening? Republicans have never done anything but oppose changes in our war machine beyond committing more money to the fight & less to the care (after care).

Democrats have failed to seize the opportunity they had while in the majority for the brief time they had the means of actually forcing some major changes for the good of our soldiers (and the country). Hopefully they have learned from their disastrous experience at trying to engage in a mutual exchange of ideas & compromises in Congress & won't make that mistake again. Fingers crossed they have the opportunity & the balls. I believe Obama has learned from his early mistakes based on & consideration for his fellow elected officials. But time will only tell.

I hate to think of how much more we will be pulled backwards if a Republican is elected President. Especially given their current field of contenders & the pack of fools they're trying to appeal to and obey. I wish that I could trust that they would do the right thing for our soldiers both during & after serving our country (& for the country as a whole), but based on past experience, I can't.

But our elected officials need to address the serious issue of mental health, recognition of & treatment for, in those serving our country & those who have served it & have now been tossed to the side of the road. And they need to go beyond rhetoric & step up & act NOW to protect both our soldiers, past & present, & get them prompt & APPROPRIATE treatment by health care practitioners who actually know what they're doing & are qualified to diagnose & treat mental health issues.

And as most of us who put them in office, & can take them out of office, agree, they need to bring our soldiers home. BRING EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM HOME NOW! The Middle East is beyond help as it applies to an outside country's military trying to bring positive changes to the people there. Most countries are. They need to make those changes based on their OWN desire to make them, not because some other country wants them to make them.

In the past, I think there were fewer ways for the citizens of such countries to desire to make & accomplish changes. But it's virtually impossible for leaders of countries to keep their citizens in the dark about how other people live & how other countries are actually run & the idea of just representation, fairness, humane treatment of one's fellow man & all the rest. Witness the current state of protest that has swept from country to country in so many countries that have run rough shod over their citizens for as long as they've existed up until now & where they're continuing to lose & risk their lives to continue the protests & insistence on being given a voice & fair treatment & representation by their leaders. I applaud them no matter their choice of government. It is & should be their right to decide for themselves how they want to be governed. I absolutely support foreign countries stepping in to end human rights violations & ethnic cleansing when it takes place.

But we should not be using our military for nation building in my opinion. I think it's wrong & I don't think it works. If not the choice of the people of a country, our trying to force changes we want them to make via our military (or 'forcing' it by any means) is as much our being a dictator as it is when their own leaders rule them with an iron fist & force THEIR personal beliefs & desires on their countries.

I also believe that the world has evolved in technology & communication to the point where war & military force is never going to end foreign opposition to our way of life. It only fuels the determination of our enemies to go beyond keeping us & our way if life out of their countries to instilling in them a desire to keep us off the planet.

We need to get with the state of the world as it is today, not as it was back in the 18 & 1900's. We (us & the world's population as a whole) need to demonstrate respect for beliefs & cultures beyond our own & develop new ways of interacting with each other internationally.

We (the USA) need to work very hard to change our image from one of world bully to one where we're not only seen as but actually ARE a country that honestly demonstrates a desire to allow other cultures & countries the autonomy to make their own decisions (as long as they allow us to make our own decisions) on how they live their lives within the borders of their own countries. That's the only way we're going to keep from annihilating the human population within a very short few centuries...or possibly decades.

And once again, we need to bring every last US military personnel home now & give every one who needs it the proper medical & psychological diagnosis & care for as long as & as in depth as it needs to be to get them back to as full health as they have the potential of being.

I apologize for being so wordy. I only intended to support the post I responded to but got carried away because this whole issue & those related to our interaction with the rest of the world is such a major concern of mine.

  • 15 votes
#1.4 - Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:52 PM EDT

Bless You!

Although I'm not military, I believe we must all work together to make sure our veterans automatically get whatever they need.

As you say, November is our main chance to make this happen. Until then we must put all the pressure we can on those in office now. I also appreciate that you understand the obstacles Democrats have been trying to hurdle and the sincere efforts they have been making.

  • 4 votes
#1.5 - Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:06 AM EDT

I'm a Vietnam veteran and can tell you this neglect of veterans has been going on since then, at least. It isn't going to change in one voting cycle.

I've never used any of my benefits until I lost insurance coverage and now have to rely on the VA for medical. It seems that my primary care physician really doesn't listen to what I have to say. On one of my semi-annual visits, I was telling him about some stomach issues I'd been having. About 2-3 minutes later he asked me how my stomach was doing. I've been having pain in my shoulder/neck area for quite some time that keeps moving from one area to another. Instead of giving me a full spinal MRI, I keep getting sent to the hospital for localized X-rays and MRI's. Of course, they can't seem to find any problem. To top it off. I have to drive 45 miles, one way, to get there. I'm getting quite disgusted but have no alternative.

    #1.6 - Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:41 AM EDT

    My husband is a Vietnam Vet-(69-71 First Cav). We are raised in a Society that teaches us that killing is wrong-then young people are drafted into situations that would turn a civilian's stomach. OF COURSE they come back to U.S.A. with emotional, mental & physical problems (my husband has a strange skin disorder that was caused by Agent Orange. Do we have documentation of what he went through 45 years ago? The red tape involved is deliberately staggering.....I believe a lot of our homeless are the Veterans who have extreme difficulty functioning.......they risked everything & are treated dishonorably.........

      #1.7 - Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:43 AM EDT
      Reply

      Ain't war great? Especially incredibly stupid wars like the uncalled for, illegal, immoral invasion of Iraq. A war that destroyed the world economy, killed hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians, made America and the world LESS safe, and needlessly killed, maimed, and emotionally damaged countless brave young American soldiers. Never mind the rest of the world wanting Bush and Cheney to pay for their war crimes, any AMERICAN who cares about their country should want these scumbags brought to justice.

      • 34 votes
      Reply#2 - Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:12 PM EDT

      And yet politicians keep trying to get us into another war, shoving 'US might' left and right while our resources dry out. We can't even protect the men and women who come home from the war, we have no business butting into other countries politics and skirmishes.

      • 13 votes
      #2.1 - Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:38 PM EDT

      Well said, Leroy. It's unbelievable the damage that has been caused in the last 10 years, to this country, to our people, to our soldiers and their families, and countries around the world. I hope we can survive what Bush/Cheney has done to the entire planet. How do they sleep at night?

      • 16 votes
      #2.2 - Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:30 PM EDT

      Cheney sleeps well with his millions mad from his Halliburton investment funds. He probably listens to no T.V. except FOX and makes hundreds of thousands in speaking fees to right-wing think tanks. He and his creepy daughter stay in complete denial.

      This is a man who tried to convince us that TORTURE was a good thing. The damage he has done to this country and the hundreds of thousands of needless deaths, injuries and emotional scars he has caused with his delusional blood-thirsty ideology make me ill.

      What a creep.

      • 13 votes
      #2.3 - Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:33 PM EDT

      Peace through superior firepower. I have been through 34 years of your military (Anyone else with an opinion?) (Army Infantry BTW) And have lived through the Cold War, Panama, Grenada, Iraq a few times etc. etc. but the most disgusting constant has been (besides repubs n democraps and politicos in general) have been the non-serving and self-serving opinionados on these sites. My two Grandfathers were fond of saying "no vote, no valid opinion" I also like "no service, no opinion that matters to those who did" I have been protecting your freedom of speech for over 3 decades, you? use it wisely.

      • 1 vote
      #2.4 - Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:03 PM EDT

      RLC Army, if you're interested in voicing it, I'd be interested in hearing your opinion on the subject of after-care for our veterans. And thanks, to you and every veteran, from a big mouth who appreciates the hell out of free speech.

      • 8 votes
      #2.5 - Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:30 PM EDT

      rlc, just wondering other than ranting at the posters on here who you think shouldn't have an opinion who for all you know may or may not have served in the military...what are your personal thoughts regarding President Bush II and Cheney?? Also, what makes you think that some of these very same posters don't have family who served or are serving?

      • 4 votes
      #2.6 - Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:50 PM EDT

      Personally, RLC kind of sounds like he gets his pants wet at the thought of combat...

      That's not the type of military person I look up to or respect.

        #2.7 - Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:26 AM EDT

        This is in response to RLC Army. First let me say that I respect people that have the courage to join the military; I have had family members who proudly served. I also love watching documentaries on the military channel, the history channel, and netflix about the military. With that in mind I think I need to point out my honest opinion about something: (yikes here it comes and i man be seen as a-hole for saying this) When I hear military members proclaim that our military protects our freedoms as if our freedoms are always under attack by some enemy posing an existential threat, I cringe. I honestly cringe. Ideally the military is supposed to protect us from threats and uphold the constitution, but when that paradigm goes wrong, what am I really supposed to feel or say when I hear someone tell me that they, a person I have never met, protects my freedoms? I know the service members who say that are truly good people and courageous, and they do believe they are helping Americans at home by fighting abroad, but I just don't really buy it anymore. I think to actually believe that is to have a fundamental misunderstanding of American society and history in general. If you consider the fact that we have been a nation embroiled and war and conflict since our creation, the oppression of whole groups of people based on their skin color, and the nature of the conflicts we fight, I just don't see it. I mean during the civil rights era, save for a few sparse events and the little rock nine being escorted by the national guard - which was very different back then, by the way - African Americans and won their rights. An entire subset of the population was being denied their constitutional rights and our govt, nor the military sworn to protect our constitution from enemies foreign and domestic, did little to nothing to stop the abuse of African Americans. The military was segregated; it gave African Americans inferior positions with inferior equipment, and it used them more liberally in deadly missions. The military has comes leaps and bounds today by those standards which is commendable, but then you get to the issue of our nation being perpetually at war for the meager 216 or so years of our existence. Other than the civil war and world war II, can we really examine the wars we got into and be proud to say we are a nation that engaged in that? The next point is just an elaboration of my last one which is to say look at the types of conflicts we get involved in. We go to war in Korea and Vietnam, for dubious ideological purpose -- the cold war. We lose tens of thousands of Americans in both of those conflicts, The korean's and the vietnamese lose millions. For what? We were scared of a system that was bound to collapse on its own - Communism. We killed millions of people, rather, we contributed to the death of millions of people because we were scared of Reds. We set entire countries back for generations because of fear and politics. Now lets look at the MIC and the modern wars we have fought. Eisenhower warned us of this in the 1950s or 1960s, cant exactly remember, but we have essentially fused businesses with conflicting interests, and the military. We are constantly being sold misinformation by politicians who lobby for the defense industry. We spend more than the entire world combined on the military. We can't win against farmers in Afghanistan with IEDs and antiquated ak-47s. We stay in Afghanistan after a clever bait and switch trick was pulled when we were supposedly getting justice for 9/11. We have been there for over 10 years, longer than world war I and II combined. Bin laden was killed by a contingent of very elite U.S. Navy seals so why did we not send U.S. Navy seals in the first place? Why did we send so many troops? Because we wanted to occupy that country, we want to control its resources, its citizens, and monitor our "enemies" in the region. Lets look at Iraq II. Predicated on a whooping lie that Saddam Hussein had nukes and was an Al qada supporter. Sold to us by politicians through lies, deceit, false pretenses - complete and total lies in other words. Result: thousands of traumatized soldiers, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis dead, and 4,000 some dead U.S. soldiers - not to mention the broad coalition. What did we accomplish? Saddam is gone! But at what price? Before I am denounced and rebuked let me just say that if there is a such thing as patriotism, surely pointing out the fallacy of the types of wars we go to and looking at for our citizens in the best way I can right now - by writing about it - surely that is patriotism. I disdain the way our govt has used military force in the past. I feel that the use of the military force was illegitimate in many cases, and I feel that no one can tell me that they were fighting for my freedom by being engaged in those types of conflicts. I know in your mind you are fighting for our freedom, I know you believe that and want to do good, I just don't believe our govts intent has been to use you for that in quite some time. I feel that I; my friends and family; my community; and police officers have fought for my freedom more often and in more beneficial ways-- at least for me, no offense. This screed wasn't meant to be divisive but I needed to get this off my chest.

        • 2 votes
        #2.8 - Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:29 AM EDT

        @RLC yep, you epitomize of the moronic lifers I encountered which is why I left disillusioned RA 71-74

          #2.9 - Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:55 AM EDT
          Reply

          Just a tragic situation all around. When are we going to learn?

          • 7 votes
          Reply#3 - Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:27 PM EDT

          Weak people shouldn't go to war.

          • 7 votes
          Reply#4 - Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:29 PM EDT

          Interesting statement Tumble. Some people ARE strong-minded enough to watch their friends get blown to bits without suffering serious psychological damage, many aren't. Problem is that it's kind of hard to be able to tell for sure until a person goes through the stress, how well they will be able to handle it. Also, everyone has their breaking point and NO ONE should ever do more than two tours. 3 or 4 tours is too much to ask of anyone.

          • 13 votes
          #4.1 - Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:41 PM EDT

          no weak people like yourself just offer horrible opinions about others... war is not normal, we were not made to be able to participate in something like that and come home better or even the same as we were before... please do us a favor and close your mouth now since you have fulfilled the saying.....

          "it is better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt"

          • 15 votes
          #4.2 - Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:58 PM EDT

          There are millions of us that have been to war, that don't flip out.

          • 5 votes
          #4.3 - Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:48 PM EDT

          And there have been those who have been to war who have flipped out.

          Here's a WWII vet, who was institutionalized after the war and released. He got into an argument with his mom in Idaho, killed her, stuffed the body in the car trunk, and drove to Arizona before getting caught. He escaped the jail, gave himself up after a night in a wet ditch, and was declared innocent by reason on insanity. This was in 1952.

          Here's one of the newsstories:

          http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1338&dat=19520508&id=afJXAAAAIBAJ&sjid=S_YDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7028,2224820

          • 3 votes
          #4.4 - Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:43 PM EDT

          there should be no wars.

          • 2 votes
          #4.5 - Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:44 PM EDT

          Arizona Tumbleweed, Every soldier's make up is different, every soldier's situation is different. Every soldier's AMOUNT of exposure to trauma is different.

          I will agree millions have been to war and have not "flipped out". But millions have been to war, and few are unchanged.

          Desert Storm Vet, 300th FLD HOSP, Emergency, Pre-Op

          • 7 votes
          #4.6 - Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:00 PM EDT

          Since there have been wars, there have been damaged soldiers returning. My uncle, was a flame thrower in WW II. He shot flames in to the caves, and when the people ran out, screaming, in flames, he put down the flame thrower and helped shoot them all. For the rest of his life, he had nightmares. the only time he didn't have nightmares was when he was drunk. He actually drank himself to death. His wife used to stand across the room and throw books at him if he was having a nightmare, because he would try to kill her in his sleep, while having a nightmare. I would imagine the nightmare had something to do with flaming people catching him or something.

          After saying that, its been a shame in this country for 70 years how they treat the veterans. They have always wanted the veteran to come home, fit back in, get a job, 2.5 children and forget the war. But there have always been some vets that don't forget. My Dad had pictures of Nagasaki after the bomb dropped. There were pix of rubble with a foot or a hand in it. He never looked at those pix, although my brother and I found them when we were kids. After my Dad died, I was going to throw them away, but instead I mailed them to a Sasebu Japan War Museum. War is hell, even if we are the victors.

            #4.7 - Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:26 AM EDT

            OK:

            Weak people shouldn't VOLUNTEER to go to war.

            • 2 votes
            #4.8 - Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:46 AM EDT
            Reply

            I said after the incident in Afghanistan there will be others who are more prone to commit violent acts because of the repeated deployments.

            • 6 votes
            Reply#5 - Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:42 PM EDT

            The American government used Bales like a cheap whore, now they will hang him out to dry. America doesn't even have the decency to house their vets that return with problems that make it difficult for them to cope and hold a job. Homeless veterans is inexcusable, period.

            • 15 votes
            #5.1 - Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:52 PM EDT

            Unfortunately, there are a lot of posers who claim to be veterans. I'd like to see some of the mothballed bases turned into veteran services centers, complete with apartments for housing.

            • 4 votes
            #5.2 - Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:50 PM EDT

            Bales was part of a revenge hit squad. He disobeyed his general's orders to refrain from revenge killing. Bales is a war criminal.

            • 3 votes
            #5.3 - Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:51 PM EDT

            Dou44, you need to shut the f up ok? I can tell you're one of those who live life watching one dumbass movie right after another then confusing movies with how you would have/could have done it better.

            But I guess if you didn't have a fantasy life what would you be left with...?

            • 1 vote
            #5.4 - Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:57 PM EDT
            Reply

            It's truly sad that the US Armed Forces has learned nothing from the Vietnam conflict. So much money gets spent on training soldiers to fight but nothing gets spent on training soldiers how to deal with the stress of combat.

            • 9 votes
            Reply#7 - Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:44 PM EDT

            Soldiers are "cannon meat" as they are easily recruited and trained into killing machines. That process may be difficult to reverse. We have a long way to go and a lot to learn in terms of fighting wars. There is no safe way of doing it. Someday, we will learn how to all get along.....not anytime soon unfortunately.

              #7.1 - Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:50 PM EDT

              My uncle was in Viet Nam. He told me, "The war was hell, but returning home was worse."

              Things did get better over the years, and he's doing fine financially, and his kids all grew up to be decent citizens, and he's healthy.

              • 4 votes
              #7.2 - Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:57 PM EDT

              Lucky him.

              • 1 vote
              #7.3 - Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:04 PM EDT
              Reply

              This guy probably showed signs of PTSD well before he became a murderer, yet the military probably did little to help.

              • 10 votes
              Reply#8 - Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:50 PM EDT

              Chickens coming home to roost.

              Just remember how much you loved it when they were slaughtering innocent foreigners. I know none of you are xenophobic bigots, so you should be just as happy when they slaughter your friends and neighbors.

              • 3 votes
              Reply#9 - Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:48 PM EDT

              Just last week I was challenging how well the military claims to have done its job for these men and women. A member of the audience who is military stood and bragged on how they had this hospital coming on stream and this service breaking ground. I asked how that was so damn good when they have had a decade to start the care and asked him how many he thought had already fallen through the cracks.

              They do not get it nor do they understand it when they are looking at full blown PTSD. They have had a decade to learn that also. F'em.

              • 2 votes
              Reply#10 - Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:41 PM EDT

              Where's the US gov't carefully crafted propaganda for this guy? I mean he killed fewer civilians than the wretched Bales, so he should be even more highly praised for what a great family guy he was, right?

              • 1 vote
              Reply#11 - Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:47 PM EDT

              A good size war makes many people very rich.....that is the real reason the world has had so many of them.....and who are the ones making all that money? Find them and place them on the front lines and it would cut down on many wars we have to send our kids to!

              • 3 votes
              Reply#12 - Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:57 PM EDT

              Why does George Bush and Cheney sleep the night like they did nothing wrong while our kids are getting killed, committing suicide, turning into vicious murders why?

              • 3 votes
              Reply#13 - Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:48 PM EDT

              Bush is too stupid to understand how wrong it was and Cheney is too evil to care.

              • 8 votes
              #13.1 - Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:16 PM EDT

              Obama is part of it now too, you know! Who is the president now? Is it George Bush? I think it is a joke to continually rage on Bush and Cheney. What happens NOW is not up to them - it is up to our present government. Hello? Anyone here in the present time? What a joke your comments are!

                #13.2 - Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:15 PM EDT

                You are partially correct. Blaming Cheney and Bush is a waste of time as they are no longer in control. They also didn't cause all our problems. Each politician has contributed to our downfall. This flock of disasters has been growing for many decades. We contributed to it by not doing our part, i.e. using our heads and controlling the government instead of letting it drive the bus. We ended up just going along for the ride; it was easier then actually keeping our eye on the ball and forcing our government employees to do our bidding. The Constitution of the U.S. is a wondrous document, which we are allowing D.C. to basically turn into used t.p. Useless, pointless and fit only for flushing. "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum, a wise marsupial.

                  #13.3 - Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:48 PM EDT

                  @rfaber9: If I may, I will politely disagree with your post. At least some of it.

                  1. It was Cheney-bush who stated the Constitution was an outdated document.

                  2. The true cost of Iraq and Afghanland will be the most expensive endeavor in US history.

                  3. You are right about the US Congress. In 2004, Rep. D. Kucinich read articles of impeachment against Cheney-bush on the floor of the Congress. The war for profit politicians did not act. Instead, they stabbed America in the back and forever channeled US politics into the quagmire of fraud.

                  • 2 votes
                  #13.4 - Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:34 PM EDT

                  We can also thank Obama (Bush III on nitro) for expanding the war in Afghanistan with even more troops still there.

                    #13.5 - Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:06 AM EDT

                    AllPeopleRights - Obama would never have gotten us into Iraq - that is why we continue to blame Bush/Cheney. Unfortunately, it isn't that easy to get out of these things once we get into them. You can't just go into a place, tear it all apart and then leave when it is no longer in favor. That is why we should be more careful about what we get ourselves into in the first place. The blame goes where the blame is. I suspect your comments are based on your guilt for voting for those jokers.

                    • 1 vote
                    #13.6 - Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:31 AM EDT
                    Reply

                    When you have an volunteer military enlistment program and no jobs for the poor, poorly educated, and

                    people unable to find employment because they do not qualify for anything. you are going to get some people

                    from the lower end of the spectrum. People with a good education and working high paying jobs certainly

                    are not going to volunteer to go a dirt wasteland where it gets to 120 degrees to wear another 60 lbs of

                    hot gear to fight an unwinable fight.

                    bush cheney rumsfield and the gang waved the red white and blue and got a lot of young men and women

                    who had no other hopes or dreams to enlist with promises of a future which they did not deliver. What these

                    people got was P.T.S.S. without decent followup medical and Psychiatric care. I personally helped one

                    woman and her child and spent a lot of time and money to do so, but I am afraid she is lost in a world of drugs

                    because the V.A. shined her on. As a preceding writer wrote, now the war is coming home.

                    Get us out of there and ignore the hawks until there is proof we absolutely need to do something besides

                    pour billions of dollars into contractors pockets. Look back and see who got rich off this past war at

                    the expense of the men and women who suffered over there in the heat, cold, dirt and sand.

                    • 3 votes
                    Reply#14 - Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:03 PM EDT

                    I get that we are all p.o.ed about this but stop and think for a minute. Truman had a sign on his desk that stated "The buck stops here." He was wrong. Very, very wrong. Each and every one of us should have that on our desks. We have lost sight of the fact that we hire these people. We pay them. We allow these things to happen, over and over. If we continue to vote the party line, be one issue voters, elect/re-elect the same old bunch of political hacks, we are at fault. Look past the rhetoric. Listen to several view points. Instead of dismissing what doesn't fit into our belief system, poke at it, prod it and see if it has some sense of reality. If so, give it a second look, if not, drop it. The people coming back from war are being treated horribly. This happens after most conflicts. It's wrong and disgraceful. It will continue to happen if we do not change this country into something to be proud of. You, I, every single one of us hold both the blame and the cure. Decide which one you will make use of.

                    • 2 votes
                    Reply#15 - Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:38 PM EDT

                    Cmomma and others -- I encourage you to contact the Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans Association (IAVA) to learn about their programs to help your loved ones:

                    http://iava.org/about#programs

                      Reply#16 - Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:47 PM EDT

                      Any endeavor, be it war, or common business, which is perpetuated on lies and fraud can not have a good outcome.

                      These "wars of profit," launched in 2001 and 2003, will exact a monetary and personal toll on America for a generation. $100+ OIL is but one of the penalties being levied. Prepare for more.

                      • 2 votes
                      Reply#17 - Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:24 PM EDT
                      JesssonDeleted

                      No one fighting in the current middle east wars is serving their country. They may think so, but what they are providing is a disservice. Most of them I have talked to are too ignorant to understand this.

                      Furthermore, most people do not love their country, since the phrase is nothing but a misnomer and a recruiting slogan. Patriotism is for halfwits who cannot even see through their own lies. Samuel Johnson called it the last refuge of scoundrels.

                      I certainly love a country that starts its own wars, kills thousands of young people so fat old men like Cheney can harvest more millions. I certainly love a country where protesters get their asses kicked by local police who have become no more than an arm of the federal government to quell civil disobedience. I certainly love a country that keeps bailing banksters and crooks out of the messes they create with their own creative derivative packages. I certainly love a country where it is perfectly legal for members of congress to indulge in insider trading. I certainly love a country where foreign corporations can control the elections simply by sending their contributions through the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. I certainly love a country that has spying devices installed in home computers and automobile navigation systems. I certainly love a country whose doctors routinely prescribe anti-psychotic drugs to two year olds so the drug companies can prosper.

                      I don't love this country, and neither do most of you. That makes you a lot smarter than the ones that do claim they love it. I like the country fine, or used to. It used to be a damned fine place to live and even worth fighting for. It is still a better place to live than 80% of the world's countries, but it is going downhill fast, losing ground fast, losing its place fast.

                      This country no longer has the best educated peiople, the longest living people or the happiest people. We have a shrinking middle class, one that is shrinking by design. When things reach absolute bottom, they will foist world government upon us, erasing our soverignty.

                      Will Durant said no country can be destroyed from without until it has been destroyed from within.

                      Okay, time for the all the so called patriots to tell me to move elsewhere, that I am a scumbag, that I should be executed, etc. C'mon, show what you are made of.

                      Let me give you more ammunition. I was going to be drafted during the Vitnam war, so I joined the Air Force in a hurry and executed my plan to get out. I was out in 18 days. Psychological but honorable discharge. I am very proud of that. I did what I had to do. That war was not worth losing a limb or a life for.

                      Start foaming at the mouths, you great patriots.

                      • 4 votes
                      Reply#19 - Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:01 AM EDT

                      There has NOT been a formally declared war since WW2. The Vietnam a.k.a. 'Nam saga, was largely based on fabrications and half-truths from the LBJ White House (Gulf of Tonkin ''incident'' and the much ballyhooed ''domino theory'') as pretenses to escalate the U.S. involvement in what was essentially a civil war in a foreign country. 21st century Vietnam illustrates the fallacy of that ''war.''

                      Odd that this Abel Guiterez was raging about the Taliban IN IRAQ as the article stated. There seems to be no shortage of misinformed people who continue to be held hostage to the belief that Iraq was involved in 9/11 inc. the sniper Sgt. Robert Bales, who volunteered for 3 tours in that country before embarking on a nocturnal'' mission'' to slaughter 16 sleeping women and small children in their own beds.

                        #19.1 - Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:06 AM EDT
                        Reply

                        And to think most Americans don't know or even care why you were there in the first place, though you'll have to pay for the multi-trillion dollar debt soon enough. WDMs? No. Democracy? No. Oil? No. Next time you go attacking countries at least have a viable plan in advance, not some have-a$$ed, hair-brained "idea." What an absolute waste of money and young people's lives.

                          Reply#20 - Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:37 AM EDT

                          But they do have an enormous poppy plant harvest, ( opium, heroin ). That is their only export. Those people are not worth one American soldiers life. We tried to help, they don't want it. Too bad, so sad, bye bye.

                            #20.1 - Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:08 AM EDT
                            Reply

                            How much longer are we going to put soldiers through the stress of combat on top of multiple deployments? The Afghans don't want us there. We should not be there. We tried to help them, but they are stuck in the stone age. They are beyond help. Billions of dollars wasted on top of countless lives. Osama is dead, job done. Bring our troops home to their families so they can try to mend both physically and mentally. Then maybe they can get on with their lives.

                              Reply#21 - Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:04 AM EDT
                              Reply

                              the libs are just champing at the bit to rip veterans and soldiers, but can't because the fallout of their doing that during Vietnam, Jane Fonda, libs spitting on returning vets, calling them "baby killers" etc, REALLY hurt them politically, so their leaders told them like they do with many things, to fake it. But its killin them!! you can tell. its like their saying they are women's rights, yet funny how if its a conservative woman, suddenly they are not.... I mean a woman is a woman is a woman, equal rights and respect for all right? Nope, not with the libs. You see they are just lying manipulating folks that want votes. They REALLY don't care for minorities, they just want their votes, and buy them with tax dollars. Whats changed for the minority? They don't respect women, or they would treat ALL women with respect, and they are dying to rail on Veterans, but can't yet.... soon though. I can tell its coming!!! C'con libs let it go, be honest. you know you want to.

                                Reply#22 - Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:25 AM EDT

                                Thank you for your diatribe. If it weren't for people like you, the level of name-calling on these forums would be abysmally low, and people might have to resort to reasoned debate and discussion. So keep up your good work, and sleep well, knowing that your contribution to the current political environment of polarizing intolerance and divisive hate will not go unremarked. Congratulations for your stellar efforts, and there is every expectation that you will continue unrestrained, as long as you can maintain your current state of blind rage against all who think differently. I am sure your vengeful and violent god is pleased, as well, and eagerly anticipates your return.

                                • 2 votes
                                #22.1 - Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:13 AM EDT

                                george:

                                the libs are just champing at the bit to rip veterans and soldiers,

                                so george do tell us,,, are you a vet or just a mouth piece? What you can't wrap the tiny brain around those vets maimed and killed also are Americans, not dems or neocons.

                                but can't because the fallout of their doing that during Vietnam, Jane Fonda, libs spitting on returning vets, calling them "baby killers" etc, REALLY hurt them politically, so their leaders told them like they do with many things, to fake it. But its killin them!!

                                it seems YOU are chomping at the bit. I want you to research this story such as spitting on our military when they returned from Vietnam. If it happened twice or three times I would be shocked. Another propaganda tidbit that just has to be repeated.

                                you can tell. its like their saying they are women's rights, yet funny how if its a conservative woman, suddenly they are not.... I mean a woman is a woman is a woman, equal rights and respect for all right? Nope, not with the libs. You see they are just lying manipulating folks that want votes. They REALLY don't care for minorities, they just want their votes, and buy them with tax dollars. Whats changed for the minority? They don't respect women, or they would treat ALL women with respect, and they are dying to rail on Veterans, but can't yet.... soon though. I can tell its coming!!! C'con libs let it go, be honest. you know you want to.

                                No george lets be realistic. PTSD IS REAL,, for you to sit back and judge a human who has witnessed and participated in horrors you couldn't even imagine, but yet in your eyes he or she goes home and won't carry this in their minds and hearts is absolutely insane. My Vietnam veteran husband who has recently passed away from an agent orange cancer suffered from PTSD for FORTY years. It effected his whole being. Some days much worse than others. Smells and sounds triggered his episodes,

                                You are an insult to me and my children......

                                a woman is a woman, think so? Some womem AREN'T here to make babies and wait on men believe it or not.

                                  #22.2 - Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:57 AM EDT
                                  Reply

                                  11 years old...she hardly lived at all...

                                    Reply#23 - Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:59 AM EDT

                                    So what happened to the mom? They don't say if she was found dead or alive, just that they called off the search.

                                      Reply#24 - Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:55 AM EDT

                                      for this country to tout "responsibility", what a sham and disgrace.

                                        Reply#25 - Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:35 AM EDT
                                        Comment author avatarHarriett Brutonvia Facebook

                                        to --- iamyouall .you are a coward plain and simple coward.you should have been dishoneribley discharged so it could have showed the world what you are .ive seen your kind many times in my life .god help us iff every one was like you .how dare you dishoner my husbonds memory and all who have served for this country and shed there blood for cowards like you .those men and women over there are obeying orders and some are even willing to give there lifes for our country .don't dare dishoner them i want them home as much as any one could ever want something .i can't stand to see whats happen to all of us because of these wars .but this is something a person like you would not understand . i won't go on any more you make me want to trow up .

                                          Reply#26 - Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:46 AM EDT

                                          @ Harriet Burton,

                                          Go back to school so that you can relearn capitalization, punctuation, and spelling. If you do not want to do that, these computers nowadays have a little device on them called " SPELL CHECK ". Use it, or have someone proof read it before you post it. Although I may agree with your above statement, and I am retired military, your grammar abilities or lack thereof make you seem like an imbecile.

                                            #26.1 - Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:38 PM EDT

                                            Sometimes a person puts up a post that only SMART people can understand.

                                            Those that can't will complain.

                                              #26.2 - Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:31 AM EDT
                                              Reply

                                              We need to stop going to all these wars abroad and instead, have our troops defend our national borders. Especially with the unrest presently in Mexico.

                                              • 1 vote
                                              Reply#27 - Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:03 AM EDT

                                              never happen, jew psychopaths want cheap labor. next.

                                                #27.1 - Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:19 AM EDT

                                                jjsnorty,

                                                You sound like an uneducated, unemployed/under-employed fool that because of his lack of intelligence can't get or keep a job. Your inadequacies cause you to blame others for you worthless life. Are you miserable because a Jew would not give you a job or took yours? The local fast food joint might be looking for employees to clean their latrines. That would right up your alley. The Jews make up less than 0.2 % of the worlds population the last time I checked, but slack jawed knuckleheads like you think they are the cause of the worlds ills. You need to look in the mirror dumb ass.

                                                  #27.2 - Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:34 PM EDT
                                                  Reply
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