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Subscribe to RSSSybrina Fulton and Tracy Martin, the parents of Trayvon Martin, the unarmed Florida teen shot dead by a neighborhood watch volunteer, tell TODAY's Matt Lauer they want justice for their son and want the shooter, George Zimmerman, arrested.
Updated at 7:48 a.m. ET: Florida’s 2005 “Stand Your Ground” law, which says a citizen doesn’t have to retreat before using deadly force against an attacker, could throw a legal wrinkle into the case of a neighborhood watch captain who shot to death an unarmed black teenager.
Police in the central Florida town of Sanford have said that 28-year-old George Zimmerman says he shot 17-year-old Trayvon Martin in self-defense during a confrontation in a gated community. Police have described Zimmerman as white; his family says he is Hispanic and not racist.
Police did not arrest Zimmerman after the shooting, but State Attorney Norm Wolfinger announced Tuesday the case will go before a Seminole County grand jury.
Legal experts, gun-rights advocates and gun-control groups contacted by msnbc.com offered varying opinions on whether Zimmerman can avoid criminal charges under Stand Your Ground.
Richard Hornsby, an Orlando-based criminal defense attorney, says he thinks the grand jury is likely to indict Zimmerman for manslaughter, a second-degree felony punishable by up to 15 years in prison. Less likely is a more serious charge of second-degree murder, a crime that implies intent and that is punishable by up to life in prison, he said.
Trayvon Martin's final phone call -- made to his girlfriend -- is shedding new light on the moments leading up to his deadly confrontation with a neighborhood watch volunteer. NBC's Lilia Luciano reports.
“This case isn’t even a close call to me. This is a case of a guy trying to be a vigilante,” Hornsby said. “It wasn’t like he was trying to avoid trouble. He brought a firearm to a fistfight.”
“My gut feeling he will ultimately be charged with some type of manslaughter charge,” agreed Philip Sweeting, retired deputy police chief for the Boca Raton Police Department and a law enforcement consultant who has testified in court cases as an expert in police shootings and use of force.
Watch the entire news conference.
“My gut reaction was this was an accidental discharge,” Sweeting added. “If you put yourself in the shooter’s position and you’re wrestling with this kid and a gun goes off, what are you going to tell the cops?”
If indicted, Zimmerman can raise the Stand Your Ground defense under the 2005 law signed by Gov. Jeb Bush. That legislation, derisively called the “Shoot First” law by its critics, gives Floridians the right to use deadly force to defend themselves in public places without first trying to escape. The National Rifle Association lobbied hard for the bill, saying it would allow citizens to better protect themselves from violent crime.
The key section of the law states:
A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."
Kendall Coffey talks about the legal developments in the Trayvon Martin case and Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law.
Hornsby says the 2005 bill allows Zimmerman’s lawyers to argue to a judge – before any trial -- that the case should be dismissed on grounds he was permitted to defend himself. If the case isn’t dismissed, they could argue self-defense at trial.
Daniel Vice, senior attorney with the gun-control group Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, contends “Stand Your Ground,” combined with Florida laws allowing people to carry guns in public, have made it difficult to pursue criminal charges against people who shoot others and then say it was self-defense.
“All you have to say is that you reasonably believed you were threatened, and the only person who can dispute that is the person you have just killed,” Vice says.
"It's very hard to bring these types of cases because the 'Shoot First' law combined with public carrying of loaded guns protects people who engage someone and shoot to kill."
According to a 2010 review by the St. Petersburg Times, reports of justifiable homicide tripled after the law went into effect. It has been invoked in at least 93 cases with 65 deaths, used to excuse violence in deadly neighbor arguments, bar fights, road rage and even a gang shootout, the newspaper reported.
Lawyer: Trayvon Martin fearful in final call
Trayvon Martin case to go to grand jury
Gun-rights advocates say the facts to date are scarce and “Stand Your Ground” may or may not apply in this case.
According to transcripts of the 911 calls, a police dispatcher tells Zimmerman he doesn’t need to follow the teen, but Zimmerman apparently does anyway. So is he or the teen the one who feels threatened?
The Department of Justice has launched an investigation into the death of the teen shot in the picturesque city of Sanford, Fla. NBC's Ron Allen reports.
“The question again is whether he (Zimmerman) acted reasonably or not. At this point it doesn’t look good for him, but I don’t know what the heck happened and quite frankly no one else does either,” says Jon H. Gutmacher, an Orlando attorney, NRA-certified instructor and author of "Florida Firearms: Law, Use & Ownership."
“When you’re talking about law and whether things were legal and illegal, you can’t guess. You’re supposed to react to facts. The facts have been kept from the public and the press.”
Added Dave Workman, director of communications for the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms: “There’s a misunderstanding about what Stand Your Ground laws really do. No Stand Your Ground law translates to a broad permission for the use of lethal force when it’s not warranted.”
He added: “A lot of people have left the starting gate before they really know what has happened. A rush to judgment is never a good thing.”
The Associated Press, Reuters and msnbc.com's James Eng contributed to this story.
More content from msnbc.com and NBC News:
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My thoughts and prayers go out this family. This is an outrage and I hope that the Dept of Justice gets it right and the Miami Police Chief loses his job. This was clearly a unprovoked murder of a 17 year old kid.
He must have feared dying by skittles.
This is just another fact that leads me to believe that fat doughnut eaters dont want to do their job and that if it had been a black shooting anyone else, that person would be in jail now awaiting a hearing, not free with the possiblility of flight. This is just another example of the outsourcing to the private sector i.e. community watch rather than having the po po do their jobs they are useless, nothing more than corp. thugs with badges and guns and the so called law behind them may they all rot in hell. I havent met a good cop from the time my dad was forced to retire from the dade county sheriffs office back in 1974, he was injured during the beach riots and they tried to screw him out of his pention after 24 yrs of decorated service.
This state is a shameless waste of humanity who turn a blind eye on justice, the only way to tell a good cop from a bad cop in florida today is the good ones lay face down in a puddle of blood and dont breath. That is probably why JEB BUSH passed the stand your ground law to begin with. Dont get me wrong there are a lot of good cops out there but the majority are bad pure and simple. P.S. I am not saying kill a pig or any other slogan which would advocate violence I am just stating my oppion, as I see it.
Unless you are cornered with no escape or a member of Seal Team 6, the only smart answer is to run like hell when faced with an attacker. An unarmed combat instructor forty years ago told us to 1. Run, 2. Pick up something large and sharp and throw it at them, and as a last resort, 3. engage in a fight.
Zimmerman murdered that kid in cold blood. He stalked Martin, got out of his car with a loaded gun confronted the young man and shot him dead. Skittles and ice tea all over the place. Martin committed no crime, but he did commit a local offense - being black. Zimmerman was not a cop, was warned off by the 911 operator, killed an innocent person and skated free with no arrest. This must be 1911 in Florida, not 2011. Pistol lynching, plain and simple. Florida's legal murder law will not stand.
Except Zimmerman was attacked from behind by Martin, and was being beaten by Martin, as verified by an eyewitness.
I have personally reviewed every scrap of published evidence and cannot confirm your assertion that Martin attacked Zimmerman in any way. Martin was an unarmed pedestrian, Zimmerman armed and in a SUV. I don't see the threat, nor is there any evidence of a confrontation instigated in any way by Martin except for his mere presence. Please supply any understanding you have to the contrary (that is based in fact).
Will, stop making things up if there were an eyewitness they would have been on the news by now. Take your bed sheet off @!$%#.
There were eight 911 calls. Several of these calls reported false information (two shots fired instead of one, etc.). Out of those eight callers, my understanding is that only one caller would go on record with the police, and he states that Martin attacked Zimmerman from behind, jumped on him when he knocked him down, and was punching him in the face. This was the same as Zimmerman's story.
Plenty of people have come on television and gave different accounts. However, out of all those people, they won't go on record with their tale. They are just media hounds. They will say whatever it takes to get on TV.
The facts of the police report are that Zimmerman was bleeding from the back of his head and from the nose. The back of his clothes were wet and had grass stains on them. This was observations by the police, which correspond to Zimmerman's account, and to the only eyewitness who would go on record the night of the crime.
So he clearly did not stalk Martin and just decide to shoot him. There was obviously a fight and a struggle of which Zimmerman received injuries. Are we supposed to believe that Zimmerman was so fast he chased Martin down, tackled him, and then decided to shoot him? Why not just shoot him? Why couldn't Martin flee if he was being chased by a gun toting looney? How did Zimmerman receive injuries to the front and back of his head?
Oh yeah, most of this info came from the Miami Herald
From Fox,
"The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John.
John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot.
"And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point."
FYI, Zimmerman was the one with the red sweater on.
"Florida’s 2005 “Stand Your Ground” law, which says a citizen doesn’t have to retreat before using deadly force against an attacker, could throw a legal wrinkle into the case of a neighborhood watch captain who shot to death an unarmed black teenager" How can this law possibly pertain to Zimmerman? How could it complicate the case? ZIMMERMAN was the attacker. Duh.... what on earth is wrong with these people. I don't have a law degree but I can read and understand what the Stand Your Ground law is saying. The charge is clearly 1st degree murder, "first degree murder n. although it varies from state to state, it is generally a killing which is deliberate and premeditated (planned, after lying in wait, by poison or as part of a scheme), in conjunction with felonies such as rape, burglary, arson, involving multiple deaths, the killing of certain types of people (such as a child, a police officer, a prison guard, a fellow prisoner), or with certain weapons, particularly a gun. A charge of manslaughter does not apply to this case. Shame on the justice system in that City. Zimmerman was lying in wait, saw his prey and went after it like the beast that he is.
Forget color ~ forget race. Here is an armed man who outweighs the teenager by at least 100 pounds, and he was threatened by a young kid armed with iced tea and Skittles. Wouldn't you think your life was in imminent danger? Nah, this wanna-be Wyatt Earp flat out murdered the young boy. It is a bit uncommon for the "attacker" to be screaming for help ~ and that is clearly heard on the 911 tape. The Zimmerman account is not the only thing that smells here. The police activity in the followup to the killing stinks to high heaven.
Martin attacked Zimmerman from behind and hit him in the back of the head with a rock, then jumped on him and started beating him in the head and face. In this case, it doesn't matter who weighs what. Zimmerman was already dazed and on the ground. What of the teen knocked him out and took his gun? Who would be dead then?
How can this be true when Zimmerman told the 911 dispatcher he was following Martin and can be heard on the 911 tapes huffing and puffing while he chases him?
Will Norris,
Where did you get this information? Sean Hannity?
What if pigs fly out of my a$$? What if aliens from the plant Xylphus abduct your sister? You can make up as many what-if's as you want. That doesn't make any of them happen.
Zimmerman will go down for a hate crime. On the 911 call, you can hear him say under his breath, "****ing coons."
Listen to video link below from The Young Turks Network. You can hear it at the 2:19 mark.
Even if we don't talk about prejudice it is clear from the transcripts of the various phone calls that Zimmerman had made up his mind that the Martin was "guilty" - he acted as jury, jury and ultimately, executioner. That is NOT the temperament necessary when carrying a concealed weapon and shows once again that those permits are given way too easily, even to people with obvious psychological problems as Zimmerman.
He refused to stand down as instructed by the 911 operator, elected to follow the victim and eventually got out of the car, armed with the intent to kill. And this is clear.
show your support for the family of Trayvon Martin by emailing Sanfords Chief of Police Bill Lee here bill.lee@sanfordfl.gov
Here is the email i sent yesterday 03/19/2012
i live in tampa i heard about this before and i just heard these 911 tapes on the news. i was speaking with my father a retired navy seal and retired Hillsborough County sheriff. i asked him what his thoughts were. he said that although the law states that you can defend yourself with deadly force if you feel that your are in grave danger, that the circumstances must prove it justified. what the circumstances show is that
1 ) zimmerman was clearly instructed not to follow Trayvon and he did not comply. instead he pursued Trayvon and confronted him.
2) zimmerman never stated any action by Trayvon to the police dispatcher other than walking in the rain with a hoodie, that would constitute suspicious behavior. which given the fact that it was RAINING would not alone constitute suspicious behavior.
3) zimmerman was sitting in his vehicle watching the neighborhood that said, it would make sense that Trayvon would have taken the same route home that he took to the 7-eleven. and that zimmerman would have seen him then.
4) Trayvon ran from zimmerman, after zimmerman advanced towards Trayvon. we know this because zimmerman was instructed to stop his pursuit on the recorded call.
5) The rules of the neighborhood watch say that you are only to observe and report and not to pursue and not to be armed. zimmerman violated 2 of those rules.
6) At no time during zimmermans' call did he express that he felt threatened or in any way feared for his own well being.
7) in fact zimmerman created the confrontation, placing himself in this situation which is contrary to what someone would do if they feared for their life.
8) in all the 911 calls made by neighbors you can clearly hear Trayvon screaming for help numerous times, while one caller describes that they were wrestling in the backyard and then zimmerman shot Trayvon. this along with the fact that zimmerman went after Trayvon after he was instructed not to, would suggest that zimmerman was the aggressor.
9) zimmerman is not a member of law enforcement therefore has no authority to make any demands of anyone to stop or "freeze", or attempt to subdue anyone for not obeying his command or for any reason. And Trayvon had every legal right to be walking home.
10) because zimmerman has no authority as just mentioned. his actions would constitute an attack on Trayvon period.
11) if zimmerman would have followed the very clear instructions to not follow Trayvon the shooting would have never occurred. the police would have possibly gotten there before Trayvon got home and at that point assessed the situation based on training, protocol and experience. none of which zimmerman has.
12 during his call zimmerman made this comment, "these @!$%#s always get away" this and along with that fact that he was instructed to not follow Trayvon and his deliberate disregard of those instructions is a very clear indication of zimmermans' mindset. it shows that he was determined to confront Trayvon no matter what.
I dont feel the need to go on with this list as this alone should be more than enough probable cause to have arrested zimmerman. the last time i checked citizens acting as vigilantes is ILLEGAL. and this is nothing more than that. please explain to me under what florida law it states that someone can pursue someone that has not done anything illegal, that only looks suspicious, can act as the aggressor and create a confrontation and scuffle then shoot the person they confronted and then claim self defense. i dont believe there is one.
It is very clear that zimmerman armed with a gun was intent on engaging Trayvon. and the key word is intent. zimmermans' actions were intentional and willful. not the actions of someone frightened for their life.
the way you and your department has handled this is shameful and shows a reckless disregard for the rights of the victim and his family. you dishonor the badge and you dishonor all those who have lost their lives in the line of duty trying to uphold the law with honor.
i hope that the U.S. Department Of Justice gets involved and exposes you for what you are and i hope that they are able to prosecute. I truly believe that if the race of the individuals involved were reversed and arrest would have been made on the spot and charges would be pending.
This is disgraceful and disgusting and you and the officers involved should resign or be fired period. You should be ashamed.
And just ONe more thing How did someone with a police recored for resisting arrest and battery on a police officer have a concealed weapons permit?
For whatever reasons the charges were dropped. Would be interested in the details of that arrest.
Why are the cops saying he's white? If he's white, then I'm Japanese. I am a believer in the "stand your ground" law, but this was not a use for it. stand your ground is someone is coming at you, you pull your gun, and they keep coming. If they try and run, then no need to shoot, unless they have done something reprehensible to another person or something else you hold dear. It takes a lot to justify shooting an unarmed man in the back. This guy apparently pursued the kid, cornered him, and gunned him down in cold blood. That, my friends, constitutes murder, no matter what your beliefs on gun ownership rights are.
Being Hispanic means you are from a particular culture, it is not a race.
Are you related to Alberto Fujimori the former president of Peru?
If i'm a white guy raised in Mexico, that doesn't make me hispanic. Sorry Guy. and Bassia, perhaps, don't think I have any relations in either locations.
Census Bureau:
Wikipedia:
And it has been a while since I looked it up, but IIRC the CIA fact book also follows the same definition of hispanic.
Hispanics make up over 41% of the population in the county that I live in and I can tell you that many of them are paler than I am. There is also a large number of them that can trace their ancestry in this state (including former a US Senator and a Representative) back 5 to 7 generations.
Good thing, he would probably be pestering you to send him cigarettes and other items that he could barter in prison.
and will norris your an idiot
I seriously want to know how killing an teen armed with a bag of skittles is self defense. How do you justify killing someone if they punched you? There such a thing as proportionate response. There is no way this wanna-be Batman should not be charged with at least man slaughter. The fact that the DA is suggesting otherwise is a failure of our justice system.
The person who was shot dead is described as a teenager --- in other words just a kid. I'd like to know how big, tall this "kid" was, how he was dressed, how he acted --- If he was adult size, dressed like a person who might be up to no good, and acted belligerently, in brief, a menacing figure who looked out of place, under those conditions I'd shoot first in fear of my life, whether he or I initiated the first contact. The Florida gun law is a good one that we should have across our entire country to discourage crime.
He was 6"3" and I have no idea about how he was dressed except for a sweatshirt hood thing as it was raining that evening. I would imagine he had jeans and tennis shoes on as he was walking to and from the store.
I cannot speak to how he acted as unlike many of the posters here who must have been right there with all the info they somehow posses I was not there and there has been different info released. He was a young man that was coming from the store. I do not know who ran and who walked etc
I don't care if he looked like Hulk Holgen, if he is unarmed and begging for mercy after you had chased him down then it is not self defense - even if the defendant was scared, let him claim that in court. There is no excuse for the way the police initially treated this case.
"...If he was adult size, dressed like a person who might be up to no good, and acted belligerently..."
Bernie you just described a stock broker. I'm not joking. This kid could be heard by neighbors and on the phone begging for his life. Knowing he was being followed by a man with unknown intent he was trying to move away from him, not acting tough and belligerent and moving toward trouble. Zimmerman made multiple comments referring to ethnicity. He ignored a police dispatcher to take up pursuit. This young man was trying to AVOID trouble, and when directly confronted did not FIGHT but PLEADED.
So all you have left is "...looked out of place...". Would you still shoot? If so it says a lot about you.
"Stand your Ground" is a great IDEA that was not thought through and worded far too broadly. I feel I am in danger every time I get in I-85 driving to work. Should I shoot all the bad drivers around me? Law says I can. A couple pulls up in front of my house after dark. They MIGHT be looking for directions on a GPS. I feel threatened. Should I shoulder my trust 12 gauge and open fire? Law says I can.
No, don't strike the law, but for God sake make it make SENSE.
What the hell did you think was going to happen when the rabid right twisted the Constitution and started arming anybody and everybody just for the hell of it?
In a rabid "conservative" hell hole you have the right to a gun but NOT the sense of well-being a mature society offers. You also do NOT have the right to an education, food, clothing shelter, health care or free and open elections.
The current crop of right-wing mobs masquerading as political parties in the United States want nothing whatsoever to do with democratic government. They want and are willing to seize total control of our lives by any means available. Why else would they want every delusional, illiterate minion they have disenfranchised armed and angry?
Zimmerman's family says he's hispanic. Why is everyone saying this guy is white? Even if he's of mixed race doesn't it depend on what the individual defines his self as? I mean, our President says he's Black even though he's mixed, so I guess if this guy sees himself as hispanic, then where is the problem? That being said, this could still be a hate crime. All hate crime isn't just white against everyone else...or is it?
"Hispanic" is a culture, not a race.
Who s this Will Norris guy above posting all this crap? Is there a police report he can site? All the evidence we've seen shows Zimmerman as the likely agitator. If in fact Zimmerman claimed he was attacked than and it is proved he has lied to investigators, than he should hang.
I think the idea that you can chase someone down while carrying a gun and then some how call their death an accident or man slaughter is preposterous. I'm all for gun rights, but if someone dies because of it, the gun totter should pay the price.
Zimmerman disobeyed the law. He pursued an innocent kid carrying skittle and ice tea and murdered him because he felt being black and wearing a hooded sweat shirt was not fit in this community. Zimmerman, who has a record himself is being protected after such a hideous crime. Wake up America......is this what this country has become? I am quite surprised it is taking so long to lock this murderer up. We all know where he would have been if race was reversed in this case. How could such a young kid be a threat to a man his size. Are we blind here? I expected better from Florida officials.....very disappointed.
Here's what I think of the stand your ground law: Zimmerman should be charged with murder, period! Martin was running out of fear. He had no weapon; he called his girlfriend to tell her some stranger was watching him; and Zimmerman had been told by the 911 dispatcher that he did not need to pursue Martin. Zimmerman did not listen and continued to pursue. Martin's death was directly caused by Zimmerman. He should be on trial for murder.
Another example of when you give men guns, bad things happen. The more guns, the safer we are? Hardly...