Soooo....we have a lot of breakins where I live by young white males. I guess that gives me the right to shoot to kill any white guy I don't know in the community and claim self defense.

If you live in Florida, it does!

Of course, there's been a lot of thefts and scams perpetrated by Wall St investors and bankers. I guess that gives me the right to....

Maybe we should check NY law!

Key2joy is exactly why no one can be civil anymore. You don't have any special knowledge about this case that the rest of the public doesn't. Who's spitting the hate speech today? Yesterday it was the Islamist Black Panther Party with AK-47's on their shirts and today....

Just so you have your facts straight Zimmerman is Hispanic Not white.

"Taaffe said that Zimmerman was appointed as a watch captain, despite reports that he appointed himself to the post."

So... he was appointed to represent the community, shouldn't that make the community responsible for whatever he does?

Just so you have your facts straight, Hispanic and white are not mutually exclusive. Hispanic is an ethnic category, white is a racial category. That's why most surveys have a separate question for Hispanic origin separate from the race question.

Zimmerman, as a non-black, suspected this black kid of being up to no good because of his race (even his friend defending him indicates that), so I think that's all that needs to be said. Oh, and that we're in this weird position of having to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt before we even get an arrest. I'm no law expert, but I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone with this travesty of justice.

@ Phil-673730: then you should have your conceal/carry license taken away because, as I'm sure you were the valedictorian of your conceal/carry class you know, when you pull the trigger you do so only with lethal intent. how many times does someone have to die because they were reaching for their wallet, cell phone or a pack of cigarettes? have the courage of your convictions and post your full name so the local authorities where you live can decide if you still, with your rationale, have what it takes to possess a conceal/carry license.

So now what ya'll are saying is that you want to wipe out an entire minority and group it with whites to serve your own "White on Black racial remarks". WOW!!! ok I did not know that technically Hispanics do not exist. I am learning new things everyday. Wow.

Zimmerman went after this boy because he was black and there had been break-ins by young black men. The boy just fit the profile. Well this community now has a new profile, one of a killer.

Zimmerman 28 years old, 240+ pounds, armed with a 9mm hand gun

Martin 17 years old, 140 pounds, unarmed.

and you're saying there was a struggle and Travon was able to force Zimmerman to the ground?

You're the idiot Dawgfan. Where are you getting your information that disputes every other news source? Oh, yea, Fox News....I forgot..........

@giantstrider, Phil has a point, and I don't disagree with him. I may not fire until it absolutely has to be done, but as someone who has had to draw my carry weapon I can assure you it is not something that is taken lightly. I have been the target of a carjacking before and stopped the criminal in his tracks. When you carry a weapon, you are well aware of your surroundings. You keep track of people around you, as I did when getting into my car at a mall after shopping at an Apple store. When you see the reflection of a young man coming at you with a brick in their hand I had every right to defend myself. Luckily for the criminal the sight of my 1911 in his face was enough for him to fall to the groung while we waited 15 minutes for the police to show up holding him at gun point the entire time. Don't be so quick to judge until you are in a similar situation.

Is your stuff REALLY worth a human life. Zimmerman shot after BURGLARIES. We aren't taliing assaults. We aren't talking rapes. We are talking burglaries. The cops were on their ways to investigate. You can't chase someone down and attack them and not expect them to defend themselves AND then claim self-defense.

Most govt forms ask if you are a hispanic, black, or hispanic, white. There are many black people who are hispanic or latino. How would i know? Uhhh, I married one. And the same racial problems exist in those societies as they do in the U.S. Racial mixing has occurred over centuries. There are very few people who are pure anything. In this country, however, a black East Indian or a black Cuban, Brazilian, Spaniard is going to be shot just like any other black person.

The fact is Zimmerman was wrong. On the 911 tape, the operator told Zimmerman not to follow the individual as the Polic were on the way. Zimmerman decided to take the law into his own hands and had an "itchy trigger finger". zimmerman was looking forward to a controntation.

What is if Martin had a concealed permit and under the Florida's "stand your ground law" shot Zimmerman??? The Police would of arrested him quicker than a sailor off a ship on liberty call.

And being a Neighborhood watch captain is a joke and has as much authority as a Cub Scout trying to stop a bank robber. Atleast the Cub Scout has adult leadership.

Phil-673730

Zimmerman stalked the teen the teen did not stalk him. He did so, even after being told NOT to, by police.

If Zimmerman was only interested in stopping a burglary, then why didn't he keep his distance and wait for the REAL police to show up, then direct them to the kid's location?? He thought he would catch him a "Bad Guy" and be a hero; instead, he murdered an innocent young man and needs to be put on trial! What if he had followed and shot your teenage son.... how would you feel then?

Frank Taaffe pointed out the circumstances that he believes led his 28-year-old neighbor to react the way he did on the night of Feb. 26: Eight burglaries within 15 months, most done by young black males, he said.

"The stage was already set. It was a perfect storm,” Taaffe said.

What the hell does this have to do with this particular black male? How is this any justification for him following, harassing, and murdering (by his own admission) a human being?

Some of you people absolutely slay me with the way you twist things around to fit your own BS agendas. @phil-673730; get your facts straight idiot. By all the telephonic evidence Trayvon did not 'approach' Zimmerman. Zimmerman stalked the boy until he finally cornered him and murdered him in cold blood. So, for you to postulate a situation as you did makes no sense and doesn't even apply to this matter. My suggestion to you, in order for you to avoid eventual murder charges (because you sound like the scary type that would murder innocent people first then figure out if you were actually in danger or not) you would do well to just stay off the streets and cower in your dwelling, gripping your pistol tightly to your chest as you flinch and shudder at every last little bump and bang in the alley way behind your house. The Martin family needs to sue the HOA of that community, the Zimmerman family and the Sanford police department and possibly the state of Florida for wrongful death of their child.

Whether Martin attacked Zimmerman is irrelevent when determining if this is a justified shooting. If a strange, 28-year-old man with a gun approaches you on a dark and rainy street (as was the case), you have reason to be fearful for your safety (reasonable belief that you will be subjected to violence is called "assault", and approaching an unarmed person on the street while you have a weapon classifies). As Martin hadn't been comitting a felony, had a lawful right to be there, had attempted to run away from Zimmerman initially, and had reason to fear for his safety, any attack on Zimmerman that Martin made would be justified self-defense.

Alternately, Zimmerman had no self-defense justification because there are two qualifiying factors. Either, the person must be in the process of a foreable felony, typically described as unlafwul forceful entry of a dwelling, residence, or vehicle, or the forceable removal of a person against their will (B&E or Kidnapping, essentially), or the person must be attacking or threatening to attack in an unlawful manner. Neither are in effect though, since any attack Martin made is justifiable self-defense, and therefore lawful, and Martin was not comitting any forceable felonies.

Zimmerman cannot claim that he thought this individual present a threat to his safety, because he chose to pursue. The "Stand Your Ground" law protects people who are defending themselves, their family and friends, or their property from harm, not people who choose to pursue possible criminals with a vigilante intent. He was advised by police not to pursue the individual, which he did anyways. Any reasonable person would have kept a safe distance, kept an eye on the individual, and prepared to point out his location to police once they arrived.

As for "suspicious activity", based on the information presented, that amounted to be being black and wearing a hoodie. For people who are trying to say that Zimmerman couldn't possibly be a racist because he's Hispanic, I'd like to point out that numerous studies show that there is more racial tension between blacks and Hispanics than there are between whites and either blacks or Hispanics. Despite what many of you may think, there is no "us against the white man" solidarity between minority races.

@differnet - You are correct. In fact protecting your material possesions is not even a valid argument for self-defense. Self-defense can ONLY be used in the case of you or your loved ones are in imminent, mortal danger. The fact that this guy hasn't been charged is ridiculous. 1) The kid was not on his property, he was on the street. Zimmerman chose to jump in his car and chase him on the hunch that he might be committing a crime. 2) The 911 operator clearly told Zimmerman to stop pursuit. 3) We're talking about a 300 lb man with a loaded gun against an unarmed 130 lb teen. Even if the teen had fought back once Zimmerman confronted him (other than to get away from a large middle aged predator) there was absolutely not need for using lethal force. Whatever the reasons were that Zimmerman to pursue this young man, when the 911 operator told him to stop he should have listened. He should be charged with not only first degree murder but also "disobeying a lawful order or direction to stop" to use a law expression.

@ Phil~ the boy did not "pull up his hood and approach Zimmerman". The boy put his hood up because it was raining. Zimmerman approached him!! Zimmerman got out of his car and followed the boy because Martin "looked black" and was therefore "suspicious". This boy was minding his own business. He has every right to walk the streets in a neighborhood where his father resides. If someone were following me for no apparent reason I would get "belligerent" too.

Dawg~ where are you getting your facts? There are several witnesses, to include one who was on the phone with 911 at the time, who state they heard someone screaming for help. It was not a man's voice. When the gun shot happened the screaming stopped. It's on the 911 tapes for goodness sake! Martin did not attack Zimmerman. The young man was yelling for help.

The excuse that there had been a string of robberies by young black men is not valid. When I lived in Nebraska there were a string of forced entries in my neighborhood. The homes broken into all had females at home alone, and the females were raped. The perp was described as a white male with light brown hair. Did this mean that every light brown haired white male who crossed my path in my neighborhood was fair game if I didn't recognize him??? No! It means that as a single female living alone I needed to be more vigilant in reporting suspicious activity to the police. I needed to be more vigilant in my own safety by not opening the door to strangers and making sure my windows and doors were locked.

This is a terrible tragedy. I cannot say if race is involved or not as I do not know Zimmerman. I can say that Florida's "stand your ground" law needs to be revisited. If any citizen can shoot first and claim self defense later it's never a good thing. The fact is Zimmerman was told by the 911 dispatcher to stop following the boy. The 911 dispatcher told him this so a confrontation could be avoided. The 911 dispatcher advised Zimmerman to stop following Martin to protect him from getting hurt. Zimmerman was the one running around with a loaded weapon, not Martin. Zimmerman out weighed this kid by 100# I highly doubt Martin was much of a match for him. This guy did not listen and now a young man is dead.

I believe this needs to be prosecuted. Let the judge and jury decide, based on the facts, whether or not this man is guilty of murder. People are outraged because it appears justice is not going to take place. This man hasn't been arrested for killing this child in cold blood and it pisses people off. Let justice do her duty. Arrest this man and give him his day in court. It's the right thing to do.

To add to my previous thought, a clarification. The "Stand Your Ground" law only stated that you do not have a requirement to attempt to flee, not that you have the right to pursue.

Well, if Florida hadn't jumped the dumb Bubba shark before, they sure have now.

White Supremacists will do anything to justify their unjust actions. Lets say black males were the only people to ever commit crimes, ever. That is irrelevant, and no excuse to mistreat black males just because they're black males. No one can help what color they are born, but black people are always vilified for what a few black people do. White people are never vilified for all of the much more heinous actions that White people do everyday.

The funny thing is, black people have shown incredible restraint here. There is no lynch mob, no riots, no calls for death - only a request for an arrest. The police say they aren't absolutely sure that he committed the crime - last time I heard, you didn't need absolute proof to arrest someone. And the burden of proof when it comes to self-defense claims is on the person who committed the homicide.

I do not care how much of a nice neighbor Zimmerman was or how much he was dedicated to protecting his neighborhood. The fact there had been a rash of burgleries perpetrated by mostly young black men does not justify the hunting down of this young man. Zimmerman should not have been armed while on a Neighborhood Watch patrol. He was advised by the police dispatch not to continue pursuing the boy and that officers were enroute. Zimmerman was a vigilante in this case, exacting retribution for perceived wrongs. Sorry, the dude may be your neighbor, but he is most definately not a nice guy nor a good citizen. He chose to take the law into his own hands. He murdered a defenseless youth whose only crime was being black and walking on a sidewalk in Zimmerman's neighborhood. I think that's what gangs do, right.

I wonder how many young black males have been arrested for burglaries in this gated community? How do we even know that this dude is telling the truth about black males being the main perps here? Is he just formulating this defense to make his actions seem justified by playing off of negative stereotypes about black people?

I am of Hispanic descent. And I know that the term does not describe a racial category. For most government forms we are considered Caucasians. Having said that, I am outraged that in 2012 we're still fighting for basic human rights, that police departments DO NOT serve unbiased justice. Mr. Zimmerman is an obvious trigger-happy lone ranger wanna be. His actions clearly show his zeal for harassing and ultimately murdering an unarmed young black man. My heart goes out to his family and I hope that justice prevails, even if it means thousands of civil right marches and endless public debate. Trayvon Martin deserves justice.

How was zimmerman able to catch martin? Over weight guy and a fit teenager, huh?

All of you talk about Zimmerman being armed, but we don't even know if he was holding it while trying to catch up to Trayvon to question him or was it holstered and concealled. That's one fact that we don't know.

dawgfan- Zimmerman was the agressor. Martin was defending himself from a man who had no business being there as he was not part of any official neighborhood watch group. Neighborhood watch members are not to carry a gun. Zimmerman got out of his vehicle after being told not to. He stalked the victim. The victim not knowing who this huge man with a gun was, defended himself. Zimmerman shot him. He had no right to do any of it.

Phil-673730

If anyone, in a dark area, approached me, pulling up his hood (as reported) and was belligerent, (listen to the tape) then raised his hand carrying something, at me, (also reported): I think I would shoot also. ( I do have a carry permit)

Kind of got your facts screwed up a little didn't you? It wasn't the teenage boy who approached Zimmerman, he was stalking the boy. If I was a teenage boy and a middle-aged man cornered me for no reason, I'd get a little belligerent too. If you have a carry permit and would shot a teen under these circumstances then I'd say you need to spend some quality time with Bubba, oh say 30 years to life.

@impatient girl - YOU may feel that "my "stuff" that we've worked our you-know-whats off for is worth the life of a robber breaking in" but if you kill someone because they try to steal your things you will be charged as a criminal. Self-defense is only to protect your life or your loved ones, period. I don't care what your feelings are about a thief, if you kill them, you are a murderer. Call the police, let them charge them with theft. If you don't like the way law enforcement and the courts carry out justice, change the laws by voting and taking an interest in your community laws and enforcement. Do not take the law into your own hands or you will sit in prison with the rest of the criminals.

@impatient girl

Yes, your stuff is worth the life of someone breaking in; and if Martin had been breaking into Zimmerman's home, this would be a completely justified shooting. However, it took place on the street. No crime was being committed. Zimmerman was pursuing Martin against the direction of the police. Zimmerman chose to confront Martin, and then fired when Martin fought back.

Imagine this: You are 17 years old, walking down the street, in the dark and rain, with a Hispanic guy in a truck following you for some time. You do your best to avoid him, but eventually he gets out of his vehicle and approaches you. You have never seen this guy before, and have no idea if he plans on mugging you, raping you, kidnapping you, or what. You present an aggressive front, because you want to make sure that he doesn't think that you're going to be an easy target. When he gets too close for your comfort, you decide to attack, hitting him squarely in the face and knocking him on his back. You want to be sure he's incapacitated, so he can't get up and pursue you while you run away, so you move in to hit him a few more times before retreating, but he pulls a gun and shoots you dead.

This is all presuming that Zimmerman did not already have his weapon out, and that Zimmerman wasn't being beligerent in any way (both facts that are in doubt, because the information presented is either incomplete or contradictory). This scenario only considers what are widely understood to be the facts about what happened: a 28-year old Hispanic man with a gun followed a 17-year-old black boy through the neighborhood, got out of his vehicle an approached him (against police direction), in some way instigated an attack from the boy (who wouldn't be frightened by being approached by the strange guy who's been following you through the neighborhood?), and then decided to shoot his way out of the bad situation he chose to get himself into.

Dawgfan-4710266 - If it was holstered and concealed, Trayvon would be alive today, get it? Holstered guns don't kill people...sociopaths kill people.

Dawgfan-4710266

Speaking of i d i o t s....Lets take their advice and let the FBI sort out the facts eh? You assume the cuts\scrapes on the guys face are from being assaulted...whats to keep him from doing it to himself to make it look like he was assaulted? Probably didnt take him long to disarm the kid of his bag of skittles...even if he was assaulted, perhaps Trayvon was acting in self defense? He was being hunted by a guy with a gun, sounds like self defense to me...but lets see what the FBI has to say...

"It's not like Zimmerman ran up to Trayvon and shot him"

Actually, it sounds to me like he did...he first stalked, then cornered the kid, pointed a gun at him, then took his life...But thats just my opinion...I look forward to hearing what the FBI has to say about the "facts"...maybe you should wait for their report too...

Chris 2.11

"Hispanic" is the term used to identify those who are of mixed Spanish/Indian/African blood and this encompasses much of Latin and South America. This is the reason why some are lighter or darker than others and the reason why some exhibit various features, i.e. African, Caucasian.

Castilian Spaniards (from Spain) are not Hispanic, but are Caucasian. One example of note would be the actor Antonio Banderas. He is from Spain and is not Hispanic, but is Caucasian. However, because he's Spanish and speaks Spanish, many mistakenly identify him as Hispanic.

I think that those debating or insisting the shooter is white have an agenda other than seeing justice done. Let the investigations continue and be content with the outcome.

TekKnowledge: I am a Central American born hispanic, like a good 95% of them, my hair is black, my skin is brown and my facial features are not what you would considered Caucasian. The term that I accept most is "Mestizo" which really means Mixed. Part native Central American Indian and part white Spaniard or European conquistador blood. Funny that I never knew racism existed in the 14 years I lived in my native El Salvador, despite the myriad of colors and races that make up that population. The main divisive frontier was between the Haves and Have nots.

Even if Rayvon Martin was violent with trigger-happy lunatic Zimmeman, it was not Rayvon who was at fault. If someone was following you who did not look like the police, you would felt as if you are surrounded by threat. In this case, it appears as if Zimmerman followed, approach or stopped Rayvon on his way back to his place. I believe that the wisest thing to do was to watch Rayvon to see if he was about to committ a crime and not to allow Rayvon to see that he was being followed because this approach was too dangerous for both. Regardless, Zimmerman should be tried for murder because of his foolish-overzealous and trigger-happy approach.

@wryview,

Did you even read the article? Taaffe said that Zimmerman was the appointed captin of the Neighborhood. So, yes he does have a right to be there and be on the lookout for suspicious activity in HIS neighborhood. Under what law does it state that Neighborhood watch members are not allowed to carry a concealled weapon when they are permitted by the state to do so? The dispatcher has no official powers and her telling Zimmerman to stay in the car is just advice, and not a lawful order. Judging by the statements given by Trayvon's girlfriend he was unaware if Zimmerman had a weapon. You act as though Zim chased him down and shot Trayvon in the back, but that is not the case. Yes, Zim followed Trayvon, but what happened in the time Zim finally caught up to Trayvon and when the firearm was discharged is only truly known by two people and one of them is dead.

If the kid got in this guys face or attacked him when he noticed Zimmerman following or he reached in the back of his pants for something or acting in a threatening manner that would be enough for me to shoot anybody. It's a fear based reaction. Young men in general have a tendency to be stupid and aggressive. I don't care what color he was I would not take that chance with anyone. Doesn't the article state that Zimmerman is himself bi-racial latino / black. People are making this about racism but if young black men didn't have such a reputation for committing unspeakable crimes against their fellow man then I guess Zimmerman would have reacted differently. It's the wild wild west in highly populated areas all over the country. You can't turn on the TV anymore without hearing at least 3 news stories about murders, rapes, or armed robbery committed by young black males.

impatientgirl, you failed as a human being. I truly hope you do not call yourself a Christian. You attitude is exactly why so many Christians are held in contempt.

And Randy, you too fail the human being test. Of course, would you have pursued a person on a public street after the police told you not to?

Zimmerman failes the human being test too.

@Leatherneck918

Your points would be very well taken except for a few facts:

1) Zimmerman was not a uniformed security guard, so Martin had no reason to believe that he was part of any sort of neighborhoos security and not just some guy who was looking for a victim.

2) No where has it been stated that Zimmerman identified himself as a part of the neighborhood watch, even while he was approaching Martin. He simply asked why he was there.

3) Martin has no requirement to answer or even address Zimmerman in that instance, because he has no reason to believe that Zimmerman is acting in a security capacity.

4) You cannot be evicted just because you refuse to talk to your neighbors. Hired security, possibly. Identified members of the neighborhod watch, maybe. But the guy down the street, nope.

5) It is not a crime to run away from an unidentified person who is pursuing you.

6) It is not justifiable self-defense to attack someone who you have provoked through your words or actions.

You present the entire scenario as if you were a hired, uniformed security officer patrolling the neighborhood. Zimmerman was neighborhood watch, and followed martin for a while before approaching him. According to all the information give, Zimmerman never identified himself as part of the watch before the scuffle began. Everything you just presented is moot.

Dawgfan - your statement that you have to be 21 to have a concealed permit is not true as some states do allow 18 year old to have a concealed permit and Florida has recitprocity with a lot of states.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CCW_Reciprocity_(121711).jpg

Having said that - Martin was 17 years old - but the point I was trying make is that in the same scenrio - and Martin had a legal permit and shot Zimmerman for stalking him - the Police would of thrown his ass into jail. Which what they should of done with Zimmerman (who is nothing but a wannbe cop)

The Police 911 operator told him not to follow.

Neighborhood block watch participants do not attempt to stop crimes themselves or take the law into their own hands in any manner. They are not authorized to pull over official patrol cars or cars operated by other members of the neighborhood block watch team.

Members are taught not to approach suspicious people but rather to immediately report their activities and to never intervene if they know a crime is taking place. Jeopardizing their own safety or the safety of others isn't ever a consideration and must be avoided at all times.

http://www.ehow.com/way_5457133_neighborhood-block-watch-guidelines.html

So even as a "Neighborhood Watch Captain" Zimmerman couldn't follow established procedures.

Zimmerman committed the crime and needs to do the time.

I agree. Excuses, excuses. Whatever happened to non-lethal shooting of a suspect? Why did he exit his car after being told not to follow? If he is as good a man as they are saying then he should turn himself in and let justice take it's course. If he believes in justice the way he appears to, he really should take the initiative and do the right thing.

TURN YOURSELF OVER TO THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT!!!

David-2425738

Just so you have your facts straight Zimmerman is Hispanic Not white.

David,

If Trayvonn was a Caucasian, Zimmerman would never have shot him.

Just for the color of his skin, Trayvonn was brutally killed and that makes this murder even worse.

I usually wouldn't say this so specifically. But this guy is a racist a-ho.

RevLucifer: Again I use the Security angle due to all private citizens/Security uses the same laws.

That means does not matter if someone is in uniform or not, what a Security officer can do so can everyone else do too.

Plus never heard of Loss Prevention Security they normally don't wear uniforms.

Let’s say none of the above, I come and contact you. You run and I follow you to find out where you’re going, but in the end you don’t know where you’re going and end up getting cornered. I start to question you of why you are here, where are you going, what are you up to? Yet you fail to identify yourself, you become very hostile and you start to act like your carrying a weapon by putting your hand in your hoodie pockets or under your shirt like you have a weapon. Right there you caused the situation to escalate up to deadly force. Even if it turns out you live on the property, just moved in, or visiting does not matter. You made your intentions clear that you’re a threat to my very existence and I have all legal right to make sure I'm still alive in the morning.

The Facts after said incident are just that after, not during.

Fact is now it does not matter if you live, just moved in, or visiting or what you were doing even if NOTHING. Fact is NOW you are a threat and use of force is justified.

Deadly Force if I feel my life is in danger since you pulled what appeared to be a weapon out.

For all you that never had to make this type of decision in your life have no clue how easy the eyes can trick you making something as simple as a cell phone looks like a gun when being pulled out of someone pants pocket when its low visibility or even raining. Or how easy it is for someone to pull out a small hand gun but your eyes only see what might be a wallet.

Split seconds are all you have to make a live or die decision and sometimes that decision is the wrong one.

Zimmerman is an idiot for pursuing but what happened after that is open to interpretation. It's a terrible tragedy but if there was an altercation, then people should not be surprised at the end result. What if the young man had beat him to death instead? This is human nature. I don't know what planet you think you are living on, but it's dog eat dog out there.

At the end of the day I'm guessing that Zimmerman will stand trial for Manslaughter and possibly Murder, depending on the facts. In the meantime people need to allow law enforcement to do their job.

People need to realize that there are reasons why the police dept are being thorough on this case. I've read many blogs over the past few days and MOST people are fixated on the FEW details made known. One point of speculation are the reports the two exchanged punches and shoved each other. Zimmerman was found by police with a bloody face and laceration to back of his head. Of course that is speculation. Wait and see.

ps...I'm with Randy above.

IMO, any time a strange older man is following a younger person around in his car, that younger person has every right to be afraid. Zimmerman had no right whatsoever to get out of his car, confront the young man and cause an altercation which resulted in the young man's death. Zimmerman was out to prove himself as a vigilante, and like most vigilantes he got the wrong guy.

Zimmerman had no authority to be stopping and questioning anyone. He is not a trained and sworn police officer or sherriff. No "neighborhood watch" person has any right to question anyone. They have the right to see, report THATS IT. If they want to be a cop, go, get trained, get hired.

dawgfan...

the only problem I see is that there is only one person alive that is able to "tell" the authorities what happened.

Zimmerman had been INSTRUCTED to cease and desist by the 911 operator. STOP following the individual. PERIOD end of story. Zimmerman was the aggressor in this situation regardless of what happened after ZIMMERMAN pursued the teen. He CANNOT claim self defense when HE initiated the confrontation.

"The stage was already set. It was a perfect storm," Taaffe said.

All the more reason that the Stand Your Ground law is flawed. Protect your property is one thing, but out on the street. Not so much. Zimmerman just proved he's an amateur at best. That is why neighborhood watch should not try to play police.

Under the Florida Stand Your Ground law Trayvon Martin would have been completely within his rights to have shot and killed Zimmerman, since Zimmerman was using deadly force against Martin. See how this works ? So what Florida is saying is to get a CCW license and shoot first and ask questions later.

People are making this about racism but if young black men didn't have such a reputation for committing unspeakable crimes against their fellow man then I guess Zimmerman would have reacted differently.

What does that have to do with anything? White people have (and are still committing) unspeakable crimes against people until this very day, do they get gunned down unarmed in the street simply because of their color. Why is Trayvon Martin accountable for every black person in the universe when YOU all are not responsible for Stalin, Hitler, Ted Bundy, Tim MacVeigh, Anders Breivik, The Green River Killer, the Trail of Tears, etc?

It makes it all the more despicable that white people are scared of black people when black people tend to kill other people who look like them, and leave everyone else alone.

I thought Texas had the worst police, but I stand corrected! Florida now gets my vote. I spent four months there last winter and couldn't believe the horror stories on the local news concerning questionable police actions. One case involved a young son of a white law official who beat an old homeless black man to the point of death for the fun of it after leaving a local bar! He was not charged or jailed! Frank Taaffe admitted that Zimmerman's actions were because of preconceived anger issues with black youths. I hope Travon's family sues Zimmerman, Taaffe, The home-owners association in that gated sub-division, and the police for their actions after the killing. That is the only way to get their attention and stop this crazy crap!

From "Good Morning America,"

The Florida police department handling the fatal shooting of an unarmed black
teen...admitted...that investigators missed a possible racist remark by the shooter...

How convenient.

Public exposure and the resulting indignation of this killing has caused the police to suddenly take a "closer look" at this case. Zimmerman should not still be "on the loose." His ultimate destination should be prison. Hopefully, Trayvonn, will receive the justice that he is due.

gillanator: Wrong or right we dont know.

1. It goes like this Zim follows Trayvon, Trayvon gets lost or confused where he is going. Zim approaches Trayvon and asked him what he is doing on the property. Trayvon instead of just answering the question attacks Zim. In the fight Zim is knocked down by a devastating blow by Trayvon and Zim decides that his life is in danger pulls out his weapon and shoot Trayvon.

2. It goes like this Zim follows Trayvon, Trayvon gets lost or confused where he is going. Zim approaches Trayvon and asked him what he is doing on the property. Yet Zim does not wait for a reply and attacks Trayvon. In the fight Zim is knocked down by a deviating blow by Trayvon and Zim decides that hes had enough of this and pulls out his weapon and shoot Trayvon.

1st one is a Legally uses of Deadly Force

the

2nd one is not.

That's the problem we don't know what happened here so Zim was with in his right or not. Its up to the DA office to decided or the Grand Jury.

@Leatherneck

Except that the Florida "Stand Your Ground" law specifically outlines what has to happen for you to presume someone to be a threat.

First, they must be comitting a forcible felony, that is unlawful forceful entry of a residence (wasn't happening) or forceful removal of a person from somewhere they are lawfully allowed to be, provided that person is not a child or grandchild [blood related] (again, wasn't happening).

Second, if those criteria are not met, the person must be attacking you, and you must not be comitting an unlawful act. Stalking, pursuing, and then beligerently approaching a stranger, especially without attempting to identify yourself and your intent, is typically considered assault. Martin had more right to defend himself than Zimmerman did in that instance, even if it involved aggressive posturing.

Zimmerman chose to make a bad decision in pursing Martin, and attempting to confront him, and when Martin resisted, Zimmerman chose to draw his weapon and fire, even though the only thing provoking Martin to that response was Zimmerman's suspicious behavior (following in his truck and then approaching without identifying himself.

Imagine you are walking down a street, minding your own business, and some strange guy starts following you in a truck. After you try to evade him, he gets out of the vehicle and approaches you rather aggressively, and without identifying himself. I imagine, from your responses, that you would act aggressively to defend yourself too, just like Martin did. *Boom* now you're dead because this jackhole wanted to be a hero, even though you did nothing wrong.

I don't think that is exactly how it went. According to the 911 operators, and the kid's girlfriend, who according to phone records shows that she was on the phone with him during most of the altercation. Not to mention that Zimmerman went directly against police orders.

RevLucifer: You need to review more laws, in this situation Zim was not braking any laws by Following or trying to talk with Travyon to find out why he was on property. Travyon was not braking any laws and tried to leave the area. Why he did not just go to his fathers place I dont have a clue on, but in the end it comes down to.

WHO ASSAULTED WHO FIRST.

Do to each Party ZIM and Travyon were each not braking any laws up to the point of now this is the part we all dont know. WHO ASSAULTED WHO FIRST. The it comes down to after the fact was ZIM allowed to uses Deadly Force against Travyon.

The reason so far Zim has yet to be arrested is that by witness accounts (His word against a Dead Kids word) he was well with in his rights.

gillanator:

"Trayvon said, 'What, are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the headset just fell. I called him again and he didn't answer the phone."

This part is speculating unless the Girlfriend can see what is happening on the other side of the phone...

And somebody pushed Trayvon because the headset just fell. I called him again and he didn't answer the phone."

And Not to mention that Zimmerman went directly against police orders. It is not against the law to follow the advice of a 911 operator and sorry to tell you this most are NOT POLICE OFFICERS, but Civilians trained to answer calls.

Randy-2190191

Zimmerman is an idiot for pursuing but what happened after that is open to interpretation. It's a terrible tragedy but if there was an altercation, then people should not be surprised at the end result. What if the young man had beat him to death instead? This is human nature. I don't know what planet you think you are living on, but it's dog eat dog out there.

Randy,

Your statement is absurd.

Zimmerman pursued Trayvonn.

Trayvonn did not pursue Zimmerman.

You talk about "human nature."

As Trayvonn did, human nature is to first flee.

Based on young Mr. Martin's call to his girlfriend and Zimmerman's call record to the police, there is no evidence that Trayvonn was a threat to anyone.

No matter which way you try to "slice and dice" this killing, it is still murder in the 1st degree.

...do not be so quick to "excuse" pathological killers.

And I'm not even going to begin my debate on whether a person who insists on aggressively pursuing people who have comitted no crimes, while armed, should even be eligible for a conceled carry license. People presume that because you have a concealed carry license that you are calm, level-headed, and an expert marksman. To get the license, you must take a class, pass an exam and a background check, and be able to fire proficiently in a shooting range.

To get a driver's license you need to be able to pass a written and technical exam as well. I know plenty of people who have driver's license and are horrible drivers, whether due to bad habits or negligence. You cannot presume that just because a person has a CCL that they are calm and professional, and will only use their weapon as a last resort, nor should you presume that it qualifies them to apprehend criminals.

Neighborhood watches are amatuer security; at least hired guards (uniformed or not) have to have some sort of training and certification in most states, especially if they have a gun (or even just pepper spray).

There appears to be no question that Zimmerman followed and confronted the victim. In this situation, the young man was perfectly within his rights to defend himself against a much larger opponent who was armed with a deadly weapon. He was also within his rights to be on a public street. Even without witnesses this should be an open and shut case. Zimmerman provoked a fight without justification or legal authority and then escalated it by using his gun. Murder in the 2nd degree should be the minimum he should be charged with.

Some of the comments on here are sick. The fact is that this wanna be pig shot an innocent kid for walking while black. There is nothing to investigate. He should be in jail. Vigilate justice should not be tolerated. All of you wanna be wyatt erps out there with your conceal carry permits. This is the problem with everyday citizens having a gun on them, an argument ends in death.

Of course he was no "Rambo!"

He simply, “had fed-up issues. He was mad as hell and wasn't going to take it anymore.”

Had a gun

Ignored the 911 dispatcher telling him to not pursue Trayvone

Followed Trayvone

Shot him

But he was no vigilante or Rambo...

Leatherneck

There is no right to be a vigilante. I'd also like to point out that if Zimmerman was so fearful for his life, why did he approach Martin? I'm more prone to think that Martin felt threatened; after all, he's being followed by a guy in a truck... The same guy who gets out and starts approaching him. Martin was the first person to ask a question ("Why are you following me?") to which Zimmerman provided no response. Instead of saying "I'm part of the neighborhood watch, and I saw you walking around so I got suspicious," Zimmerman comes back with "What are you doing here?" and the fight ensues. If I were Martin, I'd feel like this guy was a racist who was mad because I was walking through his neighborhood; he had plenty of opportunity to defuse the situation, including the choice to watch and not confront. And I'd feel threatened by Zimmerman in that instance, as he was the aggressor, and when given the opportunity to identify himself, he refused. I don't take lightly to strange people confronting me at night and then not identifying themselves. Seems kind of "suspicious" to me. The same way that Zimmerman thought a black kid with a hoodie was "suspicious".

RevLucifer: And I'm not even going to begin my debate on whether a person who insists on aggressively pursuing people who have committed no crimes, while armed.

Again your making up speculation and your point of veiw. ZIM following Travyon is not a crime, Zim trying to talk with Trayvon is not a crime. Carrying a weapon with a CCW is not a Crime.

What is a crime is if ZIM assulted Trayvon first and then shot him. That is a Crime, yet we dont know what happend during this. So again it comes down to:

WHO ASSAULTED WHO FIRST.

RevLucifer: If Trayvon attacked ZIM and hit him with a rainmaker sending him to the ground then at this point ZIM would be fearful for his life and so would you.

robiscoole: That is the most ignorant comment ever. Walking While Black. How about the place has been hit by black hoodie teens 8 times and sorry to say Travyon new to the community was not known to ZIM.

How about this poor ZIM used poor judgment and just should have waited for the police, yet Zim decided to try stop Trayvon or follow him and find out who he was and why was he on the property. Yet doing this ZIM is not braking any laws.

No, it comes down to whether Martin was *justified* in attacking Zimmerman, not whether Zimmerman attacked first. There is nothing here that shows that Martin had any reason to *not* think his life may be in danger from Zimmerman, the man who had been following him in a truck, the man who confronted him after Martin tried to get away, and the man who did not identify himself when Martin asked who he was. I don't see any reason why Martin would not be afraid for his life, and therefore justified in attacking Zimmerman first. Unless you can give some reason why Martin should not have feared for his life, then Zimmerman has no justification for shooting.

That's like saying that if you end up on gang turf, and some gang member is following you in his truck, then gets out, and when you ask who he is while approaching you, he responds with "what are you doing here?". Zimmerman was clearly acting aggressively, you can tell that just from his call to 911. If that gang member refused to identify himself, and came within your comfort zone, so you decided to hit him. In response, he pulls a gun, and shoots you, provided there is no law preventing him from having the gun at that moment, he's completely justified. That is what you are implying.

You are correct.

After my wife and I received our (FL) CWP's, we were advised to purchase, and read, Jon Gutmacher's book. We did, several times, cover to cover. All 350 pages.

With the right to carry a firearm, also comes great responsibility. The law is often, intentionally vague and use of deadly force is ALWAYS a last resort.

I find it interesting that, unless I'm TOTALLY misunderstanding the "Stand Your Ground" law, that the media is applying a statute that simply is not applicable under these circumstances. The "Stand Your Ground" law was meant to expand the "Castle Doctrine" by "expanding the concept of what is a "castle" and by expanding the group of persons entitled to the castle's protection"

"UNDER THE CASTLE DOCTRINE, ONLY PERSONS LAWFULLY RESIDING IN A DWELLING HAVE NO DUTY TO RETREAT BEFORE RESORTING TO DEADLY FORCE NECESSARY FOR SELF-DEFENSE".

"UNDER FLORIDA COMMON LAW, A PERSON HAS A DUTY TO RETREAT, IF OUTSIDE HIS OR HER HOME OR PLACE OF BUSINESS, BEFORE RESORTING TO DEADLY FORCE REASONABLY BELIEVED NECESSARY TO PREVENT IMMINENT DEATH OR GREAT BODILY HARM"

The "Stand Your Ground" law has nothing to do with this case. The media is twisting and misrepresenting the statutes...

Facts as I see them: Zimmerman had a DUTY TO RETREAT - unless- Martin made some act or action that made Zimmerman in fear for his life.

Only Zimmerman and Martin know what happened, and we will only get side of the story....

This is why we have a legal system...

Leatherneck =- Thanks for a comment with some sanity in it (2.41).

I keep trying to tell people that my opinion is that Zimmerman told police that in the fight, Martin went for his gun. That is clear self defense. All the other facts are irrelevant. When two people are fighting, and one of them goes for a gun, it becomes a life or death situation - hence self defense.

We simply only have the words of Zimmerman as to what happened. There are no eyewitnesses. And every single earwitness says they heard a fight.

This is the most likely reason he isn't being charged.

So might say it's a technicallity, but you have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he is lying. Thta's going to be hard to do.

Heck, they might have Martin's fingerprints on the gun or holster as well.

I'm just speculating - but so is everyone else.

The fact is they were fighting and Martin was shot from the front - that is a defensive direction.

People keep latching on to the fact that he was unarmed. Next time you get pulled over by the police, and you don't want to answer them, try getting in a fight with them over it. Unarmed or not, you are creating a situation where you might get shot.

And the police will claim self defense.

Zimmerman was probably in the wrong, but that doesn't mean he broke the law. And with the facts we have, I doubt they have enough to convict considering it's Zimmerman's word vs. no witnesses.

Leatherneck918

How was Treyvone supposed to know that the man following him with a gun was a security guard? If someone is following me, my first presumption is not that they are doing so to protect the good of others. I am scared and get into the "defend myself" mode. This is probably why the 911 dispatcher told him to not follow the guy as, of course, when you follow someone-a tense situation arises, especially if it is not clear that you are law enforcement (or whatever neighborhood watch people are.)

Even if he was concerned about robbery, there was no immediate threat of violence in this situation. Why did he ignore the dispatcher telling him to not pursue him? The cops were on the way.

In any case, it is not ok to:

Ignore a 911 dispatcher's instructions when there is no immediate threat and cops are on the way

Follow someone who has done nothing wrong without clearly identifying yourself as law enorcement

(nevermind shoot an unarmed person.)

Who assaulted who first? Considering that the first time Zimerman says that Treyvone did anything actually wrong was after the went against the dispatcher's instructions and started following the guy-which can easily be seen as an agressive move-I would say Zimerman.

Instead of "Walking While Black" I propose it get changed to "Walking while White people are being racist"

David:perhaps if you were a little more educated-no offense,time I know is very limited in our society- you would have known that Hispanic is as Chris explained not a race. This "Ethnic' group only exists in the US. Here they have grouped whites,blacks,asians, ,mulattoes,south american indians,etc as hispanics if they speak spanish or come from central and south America. Indeed as he points out is a discriminatory term in itself. Some historians traced this 'Hispanic' term to the hostilities that were present between England and Spain in the 15 and subsequent centuries. The term ceased to be used as a discriminatory term except in the US(an ex British colony),where they grouped Argentinians,Bolivians,Colombians and all other american nationalities(remember that America is composed of North America, Central America, and South America) into this nondescript pot called Hispanics. In this pot you find a person of German ancestors,one of Italian ancestors,Indian ancestors,Chinese ancestors,Spanish ancestors,African ancestors etc;if you can call that group Hispanics[help yourself.

The modern classification of races as you know, was the idea of a German in the late 1800's,he classified them in Europids,Mongoloids,Negroids.Each group was formed by different subgroups.Read it, it is fascinating.

Pertaining to this article,my subjective interpretation is that this Zimmerman overreacted. He is a neighborhood watchman,his function is, if any, to call the police if he sees a person about ready to commit a felony or misdemeanor. If he sees a felony being committed and the perpetrator escaping he may attempt a citizens arrest,which in Florida may justify shooting. From what I have read,he followed the guy.He was even advised against by a 911 dispatcher. To me that is confrontational. No felony had been committed. Perhaps he was hyper-sensitized because of the previous burglaries in the area,but that no excuse. Let's see what this leads to. In any event is already tragic.

By the way David I think Zimmerman's father was playing the race card:my son is hispanic,therefore the shooting could not be racially motivated. That reasoning is false. Whether race was a motive in this shooting,we don't know. We all do,racial profiling;law enforcement agents do. It is intrinsic to group identification. Look what we are doing to the Muslims nowadays,we do it to the blacks,we do it to the jews,blacks do it to whites ad infinitum. This is a behavior which sadly permeates all cultures. In this particular case,seems more like a primitive territorial protective behavior: You are different,you don' belong here. Regards

These are the facts:

FACT: Zimmerman was told 'we don't nee you to follow' Trayvon by the 911 operator.

FACT: On the clip where there is the disputed 'coon' remark you CLEARLY hear Zimmerman get out of and close the door to the car (meaning his I got out to check the street sign is a LIE)

FACT: Zimmerman ran after Trayvon after he started running and was heard breathing heaviliy.

FACT: Zimmerman got off the phone with the 911 operator and told them he 'could be reached on his cell phone (who gets off the phone with the 911 operator if they feel threatened)

FACT: Zimmerman (250 lbs) and Trayvon (140 at 6'3" is VERY SKINNY) wrestled on the ground.

FACT: 3 witness all who were will to give there full names and ages to the police stated a boy, a teenager and a despondent boy was heard shouting for help.

FACT: the only witness to see Zimmerman on the ground crying to help only gave his name as 'John' and was only interviewed by Fox News. (another witness claims to have seen Zimmerman 'in need of help' but when this witnesses dog got off the leash he chased after his dog?!?!?!? Fox News)

FACT: Trayvon was killed by a single gunshot to the chest (not multiple shots as is often heard in a scuffle but a single clear kill shot)

FACT: There was no toxicology or drug screening done on Zimmerman at the scene dispite this being consider 'standard practice' by police experts and dispite Zimmerman sounding 'under the influence' and 'slurring his words' according to police experts upon hearing the 911 tapes.

FACT: No background check was done on Zimmerman which would have shown a 2005 arrest for resisting arrest and battery on a police officer.

FACT: Both a toxicology report and background check was done on already dead Trayvon Martin (they showed up empty)

FACT: The detective sent to the scene was not a homicide detective but instead a narcotics detective who faced backfire over his refusal to arrest a white lt.'s son who was videotaped beating a homeless black man in 2010.

FACT: The original police report stated NOTHING about injuries to Mr. Zimmerman.

FACT: There has been NO hopital report or reports of Mr. Zimmerman recieving treatment for his 'injuries'

FACT: A teenager who was an "A" and "B" student, with no record and who had every right to be where he was was shot dead.

FACT: The shooter who has a history of violence (see above arrest) who is clearly heard as saying "they (who is they? need I answer this) always get away" and Sanford police dept. admits they may have "missed a derogatory racial slur" being muttered as well, yet he is now sleeping in his bed and still has his gun permit.

FACT: There is no justice in this!

@Ryan in Texas

Again, the problem with your scenario is that Zimmerman never identified himself. As far as Martin knew, Zimmerman was a serial rapist armed with a gun. He never said he was part of the neighborhood watch, and it's clear from the 911 tapes that he thought Martin was "suspicious" because he was black, and it was nighttime. There is a reason that we have trained police officers to handle these situations. As for the last scenario, once a police officer has identified himself, anything you do to resist is unlawful. If an undercover cop threatens you, and you react, that is justified because you had no reason to believe they were an officer of the law.

If I was approached at night, on the street, by a guy who had been following me, and who has a gun, then yeah, I'd go for it too in a fight, because you can outrun the guy, but you can't outrun a bullet.

TekKnowledge

The difference between white serial killers and minority street crime is that serial killers are far less common. You don't see stories about serial killers and mass murderers EVERY NIGHT on the news. It doesn't help your case any when you say that black people kill other people that "look like them" when Zimmerman is reported to be Latino or Bi-Racial. An observation is not the same thing as racism. This PC notion that stereotypes are bad is a load of crap. The reason it's a stereotype is because most of the time it's true. It doesn't apply to everybody but a large vocal percentage of the ignorant masses. I don't think it's specifically because they are black, I think it's because they are poor and live in an over populated area. Their are plenty of white, latino and asian people fall into this same category all over the country. Most of the people in the "bad" neighborhoods are old retired people or poor young people that don't want to work. Doesn't matter what color they are the story is the same all over the country. When the property values go down the trash moves in, then the crime goes up. The biggest problem with the image of black people and latinos is that they have entire film and music industries glamorizing the violent welfare gangster lifestyle. Everybody wants the easy money and nobody wants to work. It's a primitive tribal mentality, that unfortunately rewarded by the black community in general. Bill Cosby took a lot of @!$%# for saying that the black community should stop acting like thugs, but he was right. White people will always be perceived as racists or rednecks because of what a large percentage poorly educated morons behave like. Nobody can have a serious conversation in this country about the real problems in their community because of fear of being perceived as racist. Race is just a scapegoat for the real issues, like crime, education and poverty.

Why are so many people comparing this as a BLACK/WHITE ISSUE? Zimmerman is HISPANIC

Randy Zimmerman's father is the only person to call him Hispanic (different from Latino) Zimmerman's license claims that he was white as does the police report and people search if you look him up. He may well have some Hispanic blood but George (not Jorge) Michael (not Miguel) Zimmerman (not Ramerez) was and considered himself to be a white man. That being said my racial prejudice issue is more with the police department than with Mr. Zimmerman.

The people who defend Zimmerman are unbelievable. I mean really?! Have you listened to the recorded phone conversations they put all over the news? We might not know all of the details, but the ones we do know paint a clear picture.

1. There is recorded proof that Zimmerman pursued Trayvon after the police dispatcher told him not to. That puts him in the wrong. Furthermore this is proof that Zimmerman was the one that approached Trayvon, not the other way around.
2. There is recorded proof that Zimmerman's stalking of Trayvon is racially motivated. If you listen to the way he talks about Trayvon on the recordings, and you still don't think that Zimmerman's a racist (enough with this Caucasian/Hispanic red herring already), then you have your head up your a$$.
3. Trayvon was not armed and was only carrying a bag of skittles and an iced tea.
4. There is recorded proof that Trayvon screamed for help right before being shot. He was shot immediately after the word "help" left his mouth a second time. Again listen to the recorded 911 calls being aired on the news. This indicates that whatever Trayvon did in that moment is an act of self defense and that Zimmerman already had his gun drawn.
5. The phone conversation between Trayvon and his girlfriend reveals that when approach by Zimmerman, Trayvon asked, "Why are you following me?" To which Zimmerman responds, "What are you doing here?" This paints Zimmerman as the agressor.

We may not know all of the details of this case, but the facts that we do have point to Zimmerman being a murderer beyond a reasonable doubt.

I'm also tired of this Stand Your Ground law discussion. The Stand Your Ground law does not apply in this situation and is another red herring. Stand your ground does not equal right to stalk, and there is evidence that Zimmerman stalked Trayvon immediately before shooting him (again the recorded conversations).

@ Techknowledge, what about Black Supremacists? There's lots of that going on and you haven't noticed? That's exactly what the Black community is doing right now for this case. Just like this quote:

"It’s really sad that he's already been convicted in the public media and has already been sentenced to the gas chamber,” Taaffe said. “Let's let justice do its job."

Robert Zimmerman, George's father, told The Orlando Sentinel last week in an emotional interview that his family has received death threats. On claims that his son stalked and killed an innocent black teenager, Robert Zimmerman told The Sentinel, "They're lies."

As I have said on every thread on this subject. WAIT FOR THE FACTS! The armchair lawyers (Both factions, for and against) on this site are doing nothing more than trying to pass opinion off as fact.

I can't find the comment again, but to the person who said that the "stand your ground" law doesn't apply, the recent addition to the Florida Castle doctrine expanded the "Stand Your Ground" protection to anyone who is in a place where they are lawfully allowed to be, so even in public there is no longer a requirement to retreat.

And as for the "racism" coments, as I pointed out in another forum, there is as much, if not more racial tension between blacks and Hispanics than between whites and any minority group. This stems from the fact that blacks and Hispanics are typically required to live in the same urban areas and compete for resources there. So, not saying that this was a racial event (but we do have the 911 tapes with the derogatory remark), just because Zimmerman is Hispanic doesn't eliminate that possibility...

How about this poor ZIM used poor judgment and just should have waited for the police, yet Zim decided to try stop Trayvon or follow him and find out who he was and why was he on the property. Yet doing this ZIM is not braking any laws.

This poor judgement led to the death of a man. Also, stop him from doing what? He was doing nothing wrong that needed immediate action to be stopped!

That is not even the point. When you see someone is running after you, do you immediately think, "Oh, that is probably neighborhood watch. Let me stop and chat with them." or "This guy who appears upset and determined (as proven by what he said to the dispatcher and by ignoring them telling him to stay in the car and not follow him) is chasing me. I should run and/or defend myself."

Treyvone certainly had more reason to think he was in danger than Zimerman at all points of this up till the actual altercation.

I am not convicting him here and now. I am saying that this should be brought to trial by jury where all of the facts, not just those learned in the media, can be brought out and the laws discussed. If a jury decides that it was self defense after eharing all of the information and the laws-fine. But a man is dead and there is enough doubt about the circumstances to warrant a trial.

Too all these unenlightened individuals defending Zimmerman I give you this.

I want you to read the 911 transcripts from the previous calls Zimmerman made and the one in question. If you read those objectively anybody with 2 brain cells can clearly see that Zimmerman is a racist pig!

His intent on the call in question was obvious. He wanted to catch him a black man. He was instructed NOT TO FOLLOW HIM! It's amazing you would think he was following the law when he couldn't even follow the instructions of the 911 operator.

HE IS NOT A COP! He may want to be but he is NOT! Regardless of what that boy did, once confronted, ZIMMERMAN is to blame.

Finally, ask yourself this: If you were 17 years old and a man twice your size was following (stalking) you as you were walking back from the store, what would you do? If you ran and the man followed, what would you think? What would you think his intentions were? Would you try and defend yourself? Once you saw that this man had a gun, would you try and defend yourself, thinking you would probably end up shot dead anyways?

The fact of the matter is, this boy was scared out of his mind! Zimmerman was clearly in the wrong.

Normally I am a person who ALWAYS says wait for the trial and let's not convict this person in the public court. In this instance however, it is VERY CLEAR what Zimmerman was doing, what his intentions were, and how he felt about black people.

describe groups to which individuals belong, identify with, or belong in the eyes of the community. The

categories do not denote scientific definitions of anthropological origins. The designations are used to

One of the witnesses who supposedly saw Zimmerman at the bottom of the scuffle also was heard as saying "I heard screaming for help and than I heard a bang, the screaming ended right afterwards." If Zimmerman was the one screaming and shot at a point when his life was in danger why would he stop screaming the minute he pulled the trigger? Wouldn't he still be afraid?

Leatherneck918

"Trayvon said, 'What, are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the headset just fell. I called him again and he didn't answer the phone."

Why would you think that Martin shouldn't have run from someone who appeared to be stalking him ?
Where does Zimmerman identify himself or his intentions ?

ManFromNantucket: Again not following a 911 operators Advice is not against the law. Even if you say that there made it Wrong for ZIM that is your opinion and not LAW.

Under the laws and the wording of law is the only thing that matters in this case.

It comes down to who assaulted who first and was Zim legally allowed to uses Deadly Force under the law.

Period. Your, Mine and everyone Else's opinion don't mean ****.

Fritter and Wait, your response was the first know it all response to really get under my skin and warrant me throwing in my opinions and observations. You're in the company of countless other omnipotent jackasses. I have a concealed permit in Arkansas. I asked a lot of questions, maybe an extreme number of questions of my active duty sheriff's deputy course instructor in an attempt to best understand as many possible scenarios when I may be justified discharging my weapon.

You stated,"ZIMMERMAN HAD NO RIGHT TO PURSUE AND KILL ANYONE FOR ANY REASON" and "In order to claim self-defense, there HAS TO BE A THREAT." From my class, I learned you are (feel free to insert stupidly or other negative synonyms) wrong and that the situation may more nuanced. A discharge may justifiably occur based upon a reasonable person's perception of a threat. The key is how another reasonable person in similar conditions with the similar training may have reacted. Factors to consider, some you mentioned:

"If the kid came at him, maybe." Some reports stated he confronted Zimmerman

"If the kid threatened him in any way, maybe." Was the kid peeved to be challenged about his presence, then, rainy, dark, etc.?

"Because there were 8 burglaries and this piece of $hit wanted to live out his fantasy of being a cop," Does eight burglaries constitute a high crime neighborhood?

"Was the kid going to punch him? Was the kid going to stab him? Was the kid going shoot him?" I consistently read the two were wrestling on the ground immediately prior to the shooting.

"In order to claim self-defense, there HAS TO BE A THREAT." Calm, knowledgeable, experienced, and analytical investigators are going to consider some of your questions and statements against the backdrop of what another reasonable person might perceive in similar circumstances.

Dawgfan-4710266's post is dead-on smart. He thoroughly evaluated events as they unfolded and now has a justified previous event to further consider and possibly complicate should he meet another similar event. Leatherneck918's post also considers a lot of valid points.

Shanad--"The kid was not on his property, he was on the street." Please, please look up Castle Law or Castle Doctrine in Florida law. Please. And then you posted, "@impatient girl... but if you kill someone because they try to steal your things you will be charged... Self-defense is only to protect your life... taking an interest in your community laws and enforcement." I shake my head at the similarities between you and a moron/ignoramus. If a thief stealing your things comes at you with a knife or brick, you may be justified in killing him/her... in front of the mayor's office building.

Using your own words, I strongly encourage you to take an interest in your community laws and enforcement, a sincere and disciplined interest. Again look up Florida's Castle Law/Doctrine. Please don't use wikipedia.com Websites ending in .gov or .edu often are very reliable. Please make an appointment and speak to your local police chief, sheriff, or one of their community outreach personnel regarding your erroneous beliefs. Better yet, sign up for a concealed weapon's class!!! Fritter and Wait, you too. To be fair, you two are not the only idiots posting, but I am singling out both of you. Life can be like that, wrong place at the wrong time. Same as Zimmerman and Martin?

Shanad, 'peeved' is a much more acceptable and intelligent replacement for "pissed." 'Extremely perturbed' also works.

The racial point that is being argued does not change with Zimmerman's fahter caling him Multi-Racial. The issue is that the police acted at a scene where a white man who shot and killed a black teen was treated differently. The police report clearly states that Zimmerman was white. The police officer clearly viewed him as a white man and dead Trayvon as a black boy. It wouldn't matter if George Zimmerman's great grand-pappy was a black man because that is not what the officer saw when he gave preferential treatment to the white man, George Michael Zimmerman!

gillanator: Go to a store you know that has loss prevention security officers and walk around acting suspicious and make it look as if your stealing items. See how fast loss prevention officers in civ clothing come to stop you. Don't answer any of there questions, try to walk away from them and see just how fast they try to stop you. Once on the ground and handcuffed, maced and possibly assaulted. Say your going to press charges on them. Once the police show up find you have not committed a crime, have not broken the law. Try to tell the officer you want to press charges against the security officers. See how far it gets you.

From this interview (or what was released for public knowledge), Neighborhood Watch Captains, leaders, et.al, are not supposed to substitute for experienced and educated Law Enforcement Professionals. If he was in charge of reporting and organizing information to Sanford PD, he was entrusted to do just that. I have never heard of any Neighborhood Watch Program encouage or assist the local PD, SD in pursuits. If the burglaries were witnessed and the perpetrators known Black Males, Why were they not described and followed through by the Sanford PD? I do not feel that this neighbor came to Mr. Zimmerman's defense. It appears as though it will do just the opposite in the eyes of the Grand Jury...give evidence to Zimmmerman's obsessive state of mind thus proving his questionable judgment and "Captain" status of the neighborhood. Did Zimmerman self appoint as 24/7 "captain?" We have never had a neiborhood watch assigned captain and it was never part of our program sponsored by our local Sheriff's Dept. AN innocent life was taken at the hands of someone who self appointed judge, jury and executioner. If Zimmerman and other neighbors actually witnessed the 15 robberies, who lead the investigation from the Sanford PD? In coming to his defense, I think he did more damage than good. The act itself, Zimmerman's state of mind are no excuses for taking an innocent life. I highly doubt that Trayvon Martin would push a grown adult of Zimmerman's stature unless Zimmerman grabbed at him first. If Trayvon Martin thought he was a sex offender as earlier reported in the cell phone conversation with his girlfriend, the young man had every right to attempt to flee the aggressor, Zimmerman.

As far as who's voice it was yelling for help on the 911 tape it was definitely Trayvon...why would someone armed with a 9mm be yelling for help...and the yelling only stopped immediately after the gun shot. I think Martin knew he was about to be shot.

Mike K: Let's say Trayvon was even breaking into and robbing several apartments (which he wasn't) he was not coming at Zimmerman in any way. Zimmerman created the scenario. In all truthfulness by Zimmerman approaching Trayvon on this dark, rainy day Trayvon was right to 'stand his ground' Zimmerman was told not to leave the truck, Zimmerman was told not to pursue. If Zimmerman felt so threatened why did he get off of the phone with the 911 operator. What person scared for their lives ever hangs up on the 911 operator? NO ONE? Zimmerman like you was well aware of the law in Florida and Zimmerman knew that on this dark, rainy night where people would not be likely to out doors he could quote the law and withstand being arrested. I'm not saying there was no fight, if someone followed me around on a cold dark night and asked me what I'm doing around my fathers home I'm not going to pull out my ID hand it over hit the pavement and spread them...I would be scared for my life. If that person who followed me (against 911 operators orders I might add) and I get in a tussle in what way is he now right in taking my life? Zimmerman said that Trayvon ran and it is clear that he than pursued Trayvon. He has NO claim to self defense and you who know law as much as you claim to know that he at the very least used poor judgement that should have led to manslaughter charges and at the worst he should face Murder in the second possible the first. When you use poor judgement that leads to the death of an innocent person you need to face charges.

Leatherneck...loss perventian officers are trained PI's who have license's and authoeity for the work they do and in their training they are taught boundries and guidelines. Zimmerman is not even a listed neighborhood watch member. He has NO authority to do anything other than call the police. Please stop bringing up instances that have nothing to do with this? Oh and by the way if a LPA takes me to the ground and handcuffs me on the basis of 'suspicious activity' and I have not stolen anything I have clear grounds for a lawsuit and can still pose criminal action on the LPA.

Given the situation, it's doubtful that the "Stand Your Ground" law will provide a defense, and Zimmerman will probably be found guilty of 1st degree manslaughter (indicating that the actions were deliberate, they were not specifically intended to kill, but the situation was one that it is reasonable that a death could result). He'll spend 3 to 5 years in prison, and be forever barred from his CCL as a convicted felon. I don't think that Zimmerman deserves more than that, because despite everything else I've posted, I believe that he was just doing what he thought to be the right thing to keep his neighborhood safe (however misguided that was).

Zimmerman will have to live forever with the knowledge that he killed an innocent boy because of his overzealous action, and that will forever haunt him.

Al, You said...

Dawgfan - your statement that you have to be 21 to have a concealed permit is not true as some states do allow 18 year old to have a concealed permit and Florida has recitprocity with a lot of states.

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Having said that - Martin was 17 years old - but the point I was trying make is that in the same scenrio - and Martin had a legal permit and shot Zimmerman for stalking him - the Police would of thrown his ass into jail. Which what they should of done with Zimmerman (who is nothing but a wannbe cop)

The Police 911 operator told him not to follow.

Neighborhood block watch participants do not attempt to stop crimes themselves or take the law into their own hands in any manner. They are not authorized to pull over official patrol cars or cars operated by other members of the neighborhood block watch team.

Members are taught not to approach suspicious people but rather to immediately report their activities and to never intervene if they know a crime is taking place. Jeopardizing their own safety or the safety of others isn't ever a consideration and must be avoided at all times.

So even as a "Neighborhood Watch Captain" Zimmerman couldn't follow established procedures.

Zimmerman committed the crime and needs to do the time.

Yes, some states allow persons under 21 to have a permit, but that is usually restricted to discharged military persons or police officers. I understand your point. Had the situation been reversed and Trayvon been in leagal possession of a firearm he would have been handcuffed and questionned just as Zim was. Yes, the 911 operator told him not to follow, but those are not lawful orders. A dispatcher has NO AUTHORITY to issue orders. They work for the county not the police force. Your statements copied from ehow are not laws, so you can take those and just throw them out the window.

tke29: Wrong Loss prevention officers are trained PI's depends on the states and there laws.

Wrong again: Zimmerman is not even a listed neighborhood watch member. He has NO authority to do anything other than call the police.

Read my post #2.49 all of it then the rest below it.

Oh and by the way if a LPA takes me to the ground and handcuffs me on the basis of suspicious activity and I have not stolen anything I have clear grounds for a lawsuit and can still pose criminal action on the LPA.

Bingo you got most of it, yet your chances of getting criminal charges against them will be harder then dirt since it will show on video of you appearing to be stealing items.

You might not get the police to press charges against them do to they were acting under assumption of you committing a crime. Yet they did nothing wrong.

You might get a small settlement out of a civil lawsuit but thats it....

The name Zimmerman, is not HISPANIC.
So, for all intents and purposes he is a white man.

What you should be asking is who authorized him to carry a gun?
And he pursued the boy even when he was told not to by the dispacher.
Stand your ground doesnt apply, when you chase after someone and get into a confrontation with him.

Any way that you see it, someone ransacking your house is not reason enough to kill him.

Now, he's all sorry.
I hope that even if he doesnt end up in prison, he will be so affected by all this that he will not be able to get a job, function properly, go into depression and shoot himself with the same gun.

I don't care what color Zimmerman is or what race he identifies with. Everybody else is making this about race I was trying to point out in the story that they said he was bi-racial. I made an observation that in some areas a majority of crime is committed by young black men. Statistics back that up. Just like where I live violent crime is committed by either poor uneducated white / black men.

Deep down people are no better than they were thousands of years ago when we were all running around in animal skins killing each other with rocks and spears over territory or food supplies.

In the end it's just two people who got into a fight and one killed the other over a perceived invasion of territory. Oldest story in human history.

Leatherneck918

Then according to your own posts my comment in 2.68 is accurate. Martin would have been completely within his right to have shot and killed Zimmerman. Of course with a CCW license. So in reality, Florida is a shoot first ask questions later state. Because by your own account someone like Zimmerman can cap you and get away with it. In your own words:

Wrong or right we dont know.

And it really is going to be hard to prove anything because the only real witness is Zimmerman. And with the right coaching he can at this point come up with a pretty good story.

I would rather be alive and try to deal with the courts than buried.

Zimmerman was in a state of accusation and God knows what else. Did he bother to assess the situation? Did he see a young teen alone? Did that constitute the lack of communication? What else impaired Zimmerman's vision in order to separate threat from non threat? The law will bear out that Zimmerman had intent, refused to act as a reasonable person would under the circumstances, used a gun instead of his reason, was reactionary (Neighborhood Watch Programs are a proactive stance to prevent the very act that occurred), is responsible for the death of a minor, and yes will be proven beyond REASONABLE doubt. Federal Grand Juries are very different from local venues and jurisdictions in spite of the Florida State Law of Stand Your Ground. The Sanford Police Department waived their jurisdiction by not investigating and holding Zimmerman, thus the Federal Grand Jury and Federal Laws will apply here. This is only the criminal phase. In civil suit, yes the HOA, City of Sanford and the State of Florida can be sued and probably will be. The case will probably be taken pro bono or on a contingency given the gravity of the circumstances. The fact remains, there is very little evidence to speak to the reasonable aspect of Zimmerman's State of Mind which will be in question including his recorded reports to 911 operators no matter how they attempt to cover up any racial remarks made by him. The fact remains, this was a young adolescent, walking alone posing no immediate threat and Zimmerman, in active pursuit, was not a Police Officer and not in a state of mind to assess the situation. He "assumed" and assumptions have no legal basis for self defense.

gillanator: Wrong unless ZIM attacked Travyon and shot him dead for no reason. Let say Travyon was still alive and Zim was dead dueto Zim was following Travyon, Travyon came to a dead end and ZIM approached him. Zim ask Travyon who are you? What are you doing her? Instead of answering ZIM, Travyon pulls out his gun and shoots ZIM dead. Is that self Defence NOPE. Travyon would be charged with MURDER. The only way for Travyon to fear for his life is if ZIM attacked him knocking him to the ground and proceeded to pull out his weapon or lets just say for argument that ZIM did not have a gun, but acted as if he was pulling one out. Then Travyon would be well with in his rights to shoot.

It comes down to WHO ASSAULTED WHO FIRST and was ZIM in Fear of his life when he took Travyons life.

That is all it comes down to and like someone else stated the only two people who know this is ZIM and Travyon, yet one is dead.

Frank Taaffe pointed out the circumstances that he believes led his 28-year-old neighbor to react the way he did on the night of Feb. 26: Eight burglaries within 15 months, most done by young black males, he said.

"The stage was already set. It was a perfect storm,” Taaffe said.

NBCMiami.com could not immediately confirm the burglary statistic Taaffe cited in a phone call to Sanford

Burglaries are not justification for murder. Zimmerman's response was irrational and, according to evidence uncovered during the past several days, probably racist as well. It seems that the real "perfect storm" was in Zimmerman's head.

"George is a congenial, amiable, admirable person,” he said. "He had a passion and a care for this neighborhood to ensure the safety of everybody here. And, furthermore, George is no Rambo."

Maybe people don't always know their neighbors as well as they think they do.

Leatherneck918 - your post is just speculation. Martin could kill Zimmerman and say he was going for a gun. That's it... over and out. According to the SYG law and your own posts. If Martin felt that Zimmerman threatened his safety, and for sure if you know someone is carrying a weapon with no witnesses you have a free pass. All the rest is just speculation. You can blow out scenarios all day long, and that is all they are...speculation that adds up to nothing.

Gillanator,

I'm not advocating that Zim is innocent or guilty, but let's just for a second look at a couple scenarios that are possible.

1. Zim chases down Trayvon with gun drawn to confront him. Trayvon reacts to seeing the gun by engaging Zim, which then results in a shot being fired killing Trayvon. I would see this a Zim in the wrong and would need to be arrested.

Now

2. Zim chases down Trayvon with gun holstered and concealed under his shirt. Trayvon turns to confront Zim on why he's follwoing him and an arguement and a fight ensue. Trayvon manages to get the upper hand and has struck Zim in the face, and is on his back. As a last resort Zim reaches for his weapon, aims, and starts to pull the trigger. At that point Trayvon sees the gun and yells for help then bang. One could view this as self-defense as Zim was on his back and fearful for his life.

This might be a bit simplified, but worth discussing.

Dawgfan-4710266,

Actually they are still just scenarios.
You never said if there were witnesses. Because in this case there really wasn't any first hand witnesses. And only the survivor had a gun. So this tells me that if you are legally carrying a gun, and there are no witnesses, you can get away with murder.

@Don,

Frank Taaffe pointed out the circumstances that he believes led his 28-year-old neighbor to react the way he did on the night of Feb. 26: Eight burglaries within 15 months, most done by young black males, he said.

"The stage was already set. It was a perfect storm,” Taaffe said.

NBCMiami.com could not immediately confirm the burglary statistic Taaffe cited in a phone call to Sanford

Burglaries are not justification for murder. Zimmerman's response was irrational and, according to evidence uncovered during the past several days, probably racist as well. It seems that the real "perfect storm" was in Zimmerman's head.

"George is a congenial, amiable, admirable person,” he said. "He had a passion and a care for this neighborhood to ensure the safety of everybody here. And, furthermore, George is no Rambo."

Maybe people don't always know their neighbors as well as they think they do.

No, burglaries are not justification for murder, but they are justification for asking a stranger what they are doing on the property when they fit the description of the people that have been breaking in homes.

Randy Zimmerman's father is the only person to call him Hispanic (different from Latino) Zimmerman's license claims that he was white as does the police report and people search if you look him up. He may well have some Hispanic blood but George (not Jorge) Michael (not Miguel) Zimmerman (not Ramerez) was and considered himself to be a white man. That being said my racial prejudice issue is more with the police department than with Mr. Zimmerman.

Great points!

a) "Race" is not a biological reality. If Zimmerman 1) classifies himself as white 2) is accepted as white by other white people and 3) functions as white...then he is WHITE not "Hispanic" (which I think people often mean "Mestizo" when they say "Hispanic").

b) The Sanford PD is certainly not ran by "non-white" Hispanics. It is ran by white people, who collectively seem not to value black life.

Zimmerman was in the process of committing a crime. A 28 year old adult male was stalking a minor, a child (Martin) under 18 yrs of age, in a large car at nighttime as that child was legally walking home to his father's residence. This was basically an apartment/condo complex NO MATTER how you wish to dress it up by calling it a "gated community". I have lived on both coasts and a "gated community" is a neighboorhood of McMansions on nice parcels of land not quite big enough to do the McMansions justice. You have to go through the front gates to get into that neighborhood.

If anyone, young or old, stalks me, I would STAND MY GROUND and demand to know what kind of pervert they are stalking a woman at night. I may be afraid, but hell ... no one has a right to intimidate me at home, out in public, or anywhere I choose to visit my friends without meeting my female, Scorpion Italian-blooded temper. If they want to know where I live, tough s__t ... I am NOT giving that to an unidentified stranger that looks Zimmerman does so he can break in and rape me later. He wants to know my name ... corners me to know it and what I am doing, hell no ... there are too many weirdos and identity theives out there today and God only knows what they would do with that info. If he attacks me for it ... he would have attacked me anyways. The cornering in itself is an attack and illegal restraint means violence was already implied by the physical cornering imposed.

Perhaps I may call out for help like that kid did ... but most likely in an apartment complex, no one will respond more than calling 911 as evidenced in the response to Martin calling out for help. His neighbors didnt seem to care that a child needed IMMEDIATE assistance while being attacked. Calling 911 was appropriate as OTHER household members go to assist the victim, not as the only response.

That is why I dont live in an apartment/condo complex. I live in a suburban neighborhood. We have no neighborhood watch .... but, everyone knows who lives here. When someone stops and looks lost, I will go out and ask if they need help. If there is a car accident, everyone rushes out to help ... no one needs to first cry for help, and the police are usually here in minutes since at least one of us carry out a cell phone as we go out to help. The oddest things that I have encountered on going out is a man who stopped on the side street along my home "to get changed" on his way somewhere, a lady who stopped to let her dog relieve himself and I found out the guy with the pickup who comes every recycle pickup day is a retired fireman collecting returnable bottles to help a hameless shelter (once retired, he found himself going crazy with nothing to do, was too old to "get a job" and wanted to volunteer in some way to help others. Not once did I go out with a weapon except once, to battle the racoon harrassing my trash cans on the side of my house. I grabbed a bat.

One time, I did not go out and did call the police ... someone was in my backyard near my 3 season porch while another was in a running car shortly after becoming involved in a community fight to stop a business that had no business near our neighborhood from getting approval from the neighboring town. My house is 1/10 mile from the site it wanted to go into within the neighboring town's borders. I am a legal abutter and organized my neighborhood to stop it and join in with that town's opposition to that business. I am in a R1 zoned neighborhood ... that parcel is LI ... and a petroleim refinery (asphalt manufacturing) wanted to see up business there while surrounded by R1 zoned family neighborhoods in all directions. They thought they could intimidate us since they are big money and well connected like Zimmerman thought he could intimidate a child 1/2 his size. That asphalt plant was stopped "dead in its tracks" by us "insignificant nobodies" (a term they referred to us by) ... NOW IT IS TIME TO STOP ZIMMERMAN IN HIS TRACKS so no other child is stalked, feels intimidated by a very strange person (who apparently frequently abuses the 911 system), or gets killed because Zimmerman's yellow streak (which has a placental attachment to his gun) strikes again if the kid/woman/man turns and says "leave me alone, you pervert"

This is really very simple.

If Zimmerman started the fight, but then Martin went for Zimmerman's gun: then the most they can charge Zimmerman with is assault.

If Martin started the fight, then went for Zimmerman's gun: they can't charge Zimmerman with anything.

I am assuming Zimmerman says Martin started the fight, and then went for Zimmerman's gun.

Which is likely what happened since there are no charges.

All the other info on this case is meaningless. Unless they have new evidence that Zimmerman is lying, then there is no case.

So is there any witness that disputes Zimmerman's account?

NOPE.

Absolutely no one has disputed Zimmerman's account. In fact every witness descibes a fight before the shooting.

You might not like it, but that's your emotions, not logic.

No, this law doesn't seem to be a good idea, people. It's way to ambiguous and the consequences of that ambiguity could be everything from vigilantism to flat out getting away with murder. We have a justice system for a reason. If one is under threat, match the force exerted against you in order TO GET AWAY. Feeling threatened does not excuse killing someone. If deadly force is necessary, than it is necessary, but this law seems to say that it's ALWAYS necessary. A person who carries or owns a gun for self defense purposes, and self defense purposes only, will always opt for flight if it is an option. Anyone who has the ability to safely get away and allow law enforcement to handle it, AND DOESN'T, isn't actually owning/carrying that gun for mere defense. They're owning it for vengence, machismo, excitement, or "compensation" purposes, if you get my drift.

What happened to civilization and juris prudence??? Are we really so obsessed with our guns and machismo that this law seems like a good idea?

"Well, there was a black man standing by my car and it was dark out, so I felt threatened and shot him to death, officer. I'm sure you understand, right???"

Do you really think it would fly the same way, if it went like this...

"Well, there was a white girl standing by my car and it was dark out, so I felt threatened and shot her to death, officer. I'm sure you understand, right???"

Of course it wouldn't. And how on earth can we even judge who really is/was a threat??? Seriously, this law is terrifying. Who does society prejudicially judge as "threatening"??? I'd be willing to bet it isn't folks who look like me, huh.

@ Techknowledge, what about Black Supremacists? There's lots of that going on and you haven't noticed? That's exactly what the Black community is doing right now for this case. Just like this quote

I strongly suspect you could be practicing racism (white supremacy) right now. What do "black supremacists" have to do with this case? We're talking about a white person shooting an unarmed black male and "black supremacy" comes up???

As far as I know, there have been no lynch mobs, no nooses, no death threats, no people taking the law into their own hands - just people simply calling for an arrest. If this were the reverse, its quite possible the nearby black towns (like Eatonville) could have been burned to the ground (and things like this have happened before, so don't pretend like it isn't possible).

@gill,

Thru questioning of Zim the truth will come out. The FBI will ask him the same questions just phrase it a bit differently and see if his story changes. It's possible he could crack under the questioning and scenario 1. would come out which would end in Zim's arrest. But it's also possible that thru questioning that Zim's accounts hold up at which point scenario 2 would end in Zim staying free from prosecution. There's a third scenario where they both could be at fault, but that one is a bit complicated and would probably only end in some anger management courses for Zim, or jail time, or nothing at all.

I'm just trying to be rational in this discussion as this is a hot button in reguards to the Stand Your Ground Law, and the Castle Doctrine which could possibly affect the laws in other states. As someone that is licensed to carry and do so in other states where I'm allowed this is very important to how I travel and if I will be allowed to carry there.

The problem here is Profiling that is what happened, if the roles were reversed I bet the Black male would have been charged no matter what their Dumb Stand your law says, honestly these people in FL. are plain stupid. This is why it is seen as a racist problem because if the Black guy killed the White guy he would have been charged in a blink of an eye ...

I love how everyone is talking about whether Zimmerman felt threatened or feared for his life as the determining factor of whether or not the shooting is justified. If Zimmerman was committing a crime, any action he undertook was not protected by self-defense, and every action Martin took was. Acting in a threatening manner (following in a truck, chasing, approaching and refusing to identify yourself at night and in the rain) typically constitutes "assault" (and is often confused with "battery", which involves physical contact, while assault only requires the threat of violence), and is sufficient justification for Martin to take any actions he felt were necessary to defend himself. That activity also voids any protection Zimmerman would have under the "Stand Your Ground" law, because he would have been acting unlawfully.

I believe if you carry a weapon, then you will have to answer to its use and damage. It is ludicrious of excuses that people come up with.

George chose to carry a weapon on this Neighborhood Watch. It was not required, nor was he trained as a security person. If there was rash of theft, then the community should have brough in a patrol. Neighbors Watch is just that, a watch. It sounded clear that the 911 operator asked George to back down, but he chose to continue or to prolong. His decision to continue the pursue ultimately caused the confrontation, which ultimately resulted in the death of an innocent boy.

Was it the boy's fault? It is not fair to cut out the initial problem and claim that it was self-defense... Because that was exactly what the boy did. He defended himself when a citizen approached him, especially when there may be a gun involved...

A perfect storm? Perhaps... but the storm was man-made. It could have been avoided long before.

Leatherneck - Your logic is pretty skewed. Under Florida law, Martin had more right to defend himself than Zimmerman did. Let's apply the law to Martin's side - some strange guy who's been following you in a vehicle suddenly appears in front of you, NOT identifying himself at all, I'll bet he was fearing for his life. So he PUNCHES (not shoots) the person he perceives as threatening him. If you can shoot someone for being fearful for your life, you can sure as hell punch them. Martin had EVERY right to defend himself, even if he did throw the first punch.

You can't aggravate a situation and then kill someone when you start to lose and then claim self defense. By trying to make excuses for Zimmerman, you kind of sound like an idiot. He should be arrested and tried for at least manslaughter.

boocs2006: So lets play your game here: - some strange guy who's been following you in a vehicle suddenly appears in front of you, NOT identifying himself at all. Yet ask you who you are what are you doing here. Yet instead of saying anything, you attack this strange guy. The strange guy fights back and before you know it your on your back. YOU committed assault, not the other way around. Lets keep going.

Some strange guy who's been following you in a vehicle suddenly appears in front of you, NOT identifying himself at all. Yet ask you who you are what are you doing here. Yet instead of saying anything, you attack this strange guy. During the struggle you notice the strange guy has a concealed fire arm, you reach for it pulling it out of his holster. The Strange guy grabs the weapon turns it into you and pulls the trigger several times in tell your hand falls from the weapon. Now you committed assault and are dead.

Just because someone follows you and ask you questions does not give you the right to attack them, if that was the case then there would be allot of dead Jehovah witness.

You can't aggravate a situation and then kill someone when you start to lose and then claim self defense.

Yet you cant attack someone with out being attacked First. Following and questioning someone is not nor is covered under aggravating circumstances.

This is a prime example of why vigilante groups are a bad idea in modern times. Armed vigilante groups are even worse.

A Neighborhood Watch group should do just that. WATCH the neighborhood and then call the police and let them sort it out. They should also get to KNOW the police AND THE NEIGHBORS.

was ZIM in Fear of his life when he took Travyons life.

I admittedly am not a lawyer, but shouldn't there be something about this fear being reasonable?

It is clear by the way he ignored the dispatcher's instructions to not pursue him that he thought Travyon intended to do something wrong, while no reasonable person looking at the evidence, that he walk walking, would come to the same presumption that he intended to commit a crime so bad that ZIM could not wait for the cops to arrive. Clearly, Zim was more than a little paranoid about what could happen.

This being the case, who is to know what could have sparked this "fear of his life." If Trevyon turned around and agressively said "Why are you following me?" as most people would probably do if they were being followed-does that count? What if he had his hands in his pocket-could have been a gun, does that count? What if he grabbed Trevyon and Trevyon, not knowing why he was being grabbed, thinking he was about to be robbed pushed him down. Does that count?

In which case, anyone can stalk someone by following them, regardless if there was a reason to think they intended harm and against the instructions of 911 and, when they respond in a defensive manner, say that they feared for their life and shoot them.

Oh wait, it looks like that is exactly what happened.

Also, how do you get attacked by someone YOU are chasing?

This is really very simple.

If Zimmerman started the fight, but then Martin went for Zimmerman's gun: then the most they can charge Zimmerman with is assault.

If Martin started the fight, then went for Zimmerman's gun: they can't charge Zimmerman with anything.

I am assuming Zimmerman says Martin started the fight, and then went for Zimmerman's gun.

Which is likely what happened since there are no charges.

It is very simple. Zimmerman started the fight, clearly, as evidenced by the 911 tapes. He was following, first in a car, and then on foot, a teenager who had every right to be there. Even if Martin "attacked" Zimmerman first, it would have only been in self-defense. Or does Martin not get to "stand his ground" too?

The facts are clear, Zimmerman instigated any and all confrontation leading up to the eventual physical altercation with the two men wrestling on the ground. Now, regarding the actual fight, if Zimmerman initiated the physical altercation, it's murder. If Martin swung first, it's manslaughter.

Let’s say none of the above, I come and contact you. You run and I follow you to find out where you’re going, but in the end you don’t know where you’re going and end up getting cornered. I start to question you of why you are here, where are you going, what are you up to? Yet you fail to identify yourself, you become very hostile and you start to act like your carrying a weapon by putting your hand in your hoodie pockets or under your shirt like you have a weapon. Right there you caused the situation to escalate up to deadly force. Even if it turns out you live on the property, just moved in, or visiting does not matter. You made your intentions clear that you’re a threat to my very existence and I have all legal right to make sure I'm still alive in the morning.

All of this in #2.49 is total nonsense. Contrary to what Leatherneck would have you believe, one is under NO OBLIGATION to stop running and answer questions from a strange man following you through dark backyards unless that man has a uniform and/or a badge and has clearly identified himself as either "police" and/or "security."

Zimmerman could have followed and asked Martin who he was and what he was doing there, but Martin HAS NO OBLIGATION TO ANSWER HIM, period!

Leatherneck - Your logic is pretty skewed. Under Florida law, Martin had more right to defend himself than Zimmerman did. Let's apply the law to Martin's side

Lethearneck has thus far refused to do so.

I love how everyone is talking about whether Zimmerman felt threatened or feared for his life as the determining factor of whether or not the shooting is justified. If Zimmerman was committing a crime, any action he undertook was not protected by self-defense, and every action Martin took was. Acting in a threatening manner (following in a truck, chasing, approaching and refusing to identify yourself at night and in the rain) typically constitutes "assault" (and is often confused with "battery", which involves physical contact, while assault only requires the threat of violence), and is sufficient justification for Martin to take any actions he felt were necessary to defend himself. That activity also voids any protection Zimmerman would have under the "Stand Your Ground" law, because he would have been acting unlawfully.

Bingo! Zimmerman has no claim to self-defense in this case, even if he turned a corner into the neighborhood backyard and got cold-cocked by a hiding Martin (if hypothetically, this is how the "fight" broke out").

Why was Martin hiding and feeling the need to lash out in the first place? Because he was being tailed by a strange man on a dark, rainy, night!

boocs2006: So lets play your game here: - some strange guy who's been following you in a vehicle suddenly appears in front of you, NOT identifying himself at all. Yet ask you who you are what are you doing here. Yet instead of saying anything, you attack this strange guy. The strange guy fights back and before you know it your on your back. YOU committed assault, not the other way around. Lets keep going.

Freaking nonsense! Good god, listen to yourself man!!

A strange man, larger than you, follows you, suddenly appears in front of you (or has chased you into a backyard as happened in this case), and offers no identification. That's freaking assault brother, by ZIMMERMAN!!

You really need to look up the difference between assault and battery.

Leatherneck918,

Very good analysis. I was under the impression "Zim" was guilty since he was NOT a law enforcement officer. Originally, my opinion was that "Zim", acting as a civilian watchman, should have (at most) reported his suspicions and not have pursued Travyon - especially when doing so could reasonably result in a confrontation. I still maintain "Zim" clearly demonstrated incredibly poor judgment, but you're points made sense. (Did "Zim" conduct himself in an irresponsible manner? Most certainly, yes. But, did he break any laws or infringe on the boy's rights as a citizen in any way prior to whatever fight ensued? I have to agree, he did not.) In addition, Travyon may not have handled the situation properly even if he had valid excuses for reacting aggressively; inexperience, being scared, being angry and indignant, etc. Indeed, who assaulted who first remains the issue. Truly, nobody knows except the survivor. I keep thinking, what if that were my teenage son who got his back up over some stranger following and questioning him.....and ended up shot and killed. That's when emotions make the loss of a young man, and the inability to clearly identify and punish a "law breaker", hard to swallow. Regardless of the outcome, my heart grieves for the parents (and family) of the boy.

Legal definition of "assault":

At Common Law, an intentional act by one person that creates an apprehension in another of an imminent harmful or offensive contact.

An assault is carried out by a threat of bodily harm coupled with an apparent, present ability to cause the harm.

Yeah, that pretty much sounds like stalking someone at night by car, then on foot into dark backyards when they attempt to run away.

Leatherneck - You still sound idiotic. You keep applying the law to Zimmerman, but not the victim. And you are ASSUMING that Martin was the aggressor. But of course, the law doesn't apply to him now, does it? He has no rights under the 'no stand down' law, and why is that, Leatherneck? Because he's black, or because he's a kid? And Jebussrip - as a citizen, Martin has a set of rights too, one of which is the freedom to NOT be accosted by aggressive strange people.

Let's not forget that the neighbors also said the police were not accurate in taking their accounts and actually TOLD the neighbors how it happened, nor was there any kind of toxicology tests done to Zimmerman, which should have been done immediately. Because I could assume Zimmerman was intoxicated.

Your defense of this triggerhappy wannabe vigilante is kind of disgusting.

I think most "Hispanics" are non-white. But not all of them. Do you agree with this?

Not really.

First of all, "Hispanic" is a made up word, invented by an employee of the US Census Bureau. Originally, it carried no connotation of 'race' (which is a decidedly non-scientific concept). People from Latin America, if they categorize themselves at all, generally use the terms blanco (white), mestizo (mixed, often European and American Indian, but not necessarily), indio (American Indian), or negro (black).

Secondly, 'racial' definitions change over time. It is no accident that certain Republican politicians forced the Census Bureau to revise its former nationality categories in order to create a "new" and more exclusive "race" called "Non-Hispanic White".

Of course, most people with Latin heritage who look and sound "white" are not considered Hispanic by the public at large, while a lot of non-Latinos with light or dark brown skin are, no matter what their ancestry.

what about Black Supremacists? There's lots of that going on

I see what you mean. Like Robert De Niro joking that the country isn't ready for a white first lady. Thanks for pointing that out. Now we know everything there is to know about how and why the kid got shot. It was probably that Black Supremecist, Robert De Niro, who killed him and George Zimmerman is just the fall guy.

Where in the world does anyone get that this guy is not white? Of course he is you moron. He is a white boy from Virginia. Look it up.

One more thing...even if he was Hispanic, that would not make it any less white. Race and nationality are two completely different things.

Indeed, who assaulted who first remains the issue. Truly, nobody knows except the survivor.

actually, we do know. Zimmerman assaulted Martin, although Martin may have committed battery against Zimmerman first.

If Zimmerman hit/pushed/struck Martin first, this is a case of murder.

If Martin hit/pushed/struck Zimmerman first, this is a case of manslaughter (and we can go to court to argue what degree).

There really isn't any other way you can slice it. Nefariously stalking someone through dark backyards without properly identifying oneself may cause "apprehension in another" and/or the "threat of imminent harmful or offensive contact." Neighborhood watch or not, THAT IS ASSAULT.

Well - if we choose to look at this whole thing with an open mind - we know the following:

1. The shooter is recorded as using a racial epitath. And (even though he was told not to) he went hunting the black kid.

2. The shooter was representing the homeowners in the HOA - based on his position at the time of teh shooting and the coments of the other homeowners quoted.

3. If a court finds that the shooter violated the law - all the owners in the HOA will be sued over the death. They will more than likely loose their houses in the court action (this is a multi-million dollar death). Most people do not carry sufficient insurance to cover this kind of claim, and the HOA is not insured against negligent deaths (or willful deaths) - putting the entire cost on the individual homeowners.

So - unless it is now legal to 'hunt' black children in Florida - the dead child's family will soon become very rich... While it is not justice, it will help by knowing that the responsible homeowners are severly punished financially.

boocs2006: I have all ready covered Martin by law as you put it in other posts. If ZIM started to question him and did not wait for a response and attacked Martain then by all means he is guilty of murder.

Facts are under no time did ZIM brake any laws, Not following the Dispatchers advice is not against the law, Following someone is not against the law, Trying to talk to some one or question why there are no the property is not against the law. Martain walking away is not against the law, Martain not answer the questions are not against the law.

But all these factors ended up causing this mess:

What happened when ZIM and Martain were face to face is only known to two people one is dead. Did Zim assault Martain first or did Martain attack ZIM first we don't know. Yet again Following in a vehicle or on foot is not assault. Following and trying to talk to someone is not assault.

Who assaulted who first is what needs to be answered. If that is ever found out then we go from there if it turns out ZIM attacked the kid=END OF THE LINE FOR ZIM. If the kid attacked ZIM then we need to go to step #2.

Even if attacked by the KID did ZIM have the right to uses deadly force under the laws of Florida. So far it looks like a big YES.

Unless ZIM lied or changes his story he possibly will not be charged with any criminal charges, yet that will not stop ZIM from being sued by the KIDS family for everything he is worth in Civil Court.

Leatherneck - no you haven't. Legally speaking, Martin was not doing anything wrong, other than 'looking suspicious'. That is a fact. Zimmerman pursued and accosted a citizen who was not doing anything wrong. Under that state's laws, citizens have the right to defend themselves. Listen to Martin's last call - the kid was scared, and it's obvious. HE was in fear before Zimmerman was. So answer this question, and don't try to avoid it, Leatherneck - Why does the 'no stand down' law not apply to Martin? Because he's black or because he's a kid?

And why are the police accounts coming under fire from the people who gave them, and why was Zimmerman not drug tested on the spot? If security people have to undergo drug testing for any fatalities on their part, what makes Zimmerman so special that he doesn't need any of that?

You're still sound disgusting, and all of your reasoning seems pretty contrived.

boocs2006: That is where your understanding of the law is flawed.

Zimmerman pursued and accosted a citizen:

pursued:

1. To follow in an effort to overtake or capture; chase
2. To strive to gain or accomplish
3. To proceed along the course of; follow
4. To carry further; advance
5. To be engaged in (a vocation or hobby, for example).
6. To court: a lady who was pursued by many suitors.
7. To continue to torment or afflict;

Under the definition pursued=Followed #3 not against the law.

accosted:

approach and stop somebody: to approach and stop somebody in order to speak to that person, especially in an aggressive, insistent, or suggestive way.

Both I hate to say is is not illegal in the state of Florida or any where else. CPS does stuff like this every single day, yet again no laws to stop it. Plus CPS case workers are just civ too. So again your points are moot.

Leatherneck, If you walk through a black neighborhood at night and a black man in a car is following you and watching you would you feel at all in threat? That is assault in Florida. The feeling of real and eminent risk of being attacked.

You're trying to get away from my question - Why do the self defense laws not apply to Martin - because he's black or because he's a kid?

To Martin, the definition of pursuit is #7.

And I notice that your definition of accosted also states aggressive...seems like that's how Zimmerman handled the situation, which would logically make Martin fearful, therefore, he had every right under Florida law to defend himself. Except to you, since he's black, or a kid, (your pick) he doesn't get the same rights as the guy who killed him for nothing.

You should be ashamed of yourself. You have no empathy, and very likely no soul, too.

Answer the questions please.

Leatherneck is still at it I see. Now I see that you are stating more random nonsense that has nothing to do with the case at hand. First of all NO ONE is accusing Zimmerman of illegal following or illegal accosting. Zimmerman is being accused of at the least manslaughter or in my mind 2nd degree murder. Zimmerman's actions did not constitute illegal action but they did make him the AGRESSOR who can therefore not cry self defense. He followed and cornered Trayvon who was now 70 feet from his door, no where to go (look at the news images there are building on both sides of him). You (in your absolute ignorance) think that when a stranger white man can up to Trayvon and asked What are you doing here that Trayvon was now required to bow to the whims of this strange man (who experts believe was drunk). A strange drunk man 110 lbs larger than this 17 year old has him cornered and is barking commands at him. This is the situation that Zimmerman CREATED. He was not thrust into this situation, it did not find him HE CREATED IT. Therefore at the very least this is manslaughter as his reckless neglegence and his poor decisions left a teenager dead. Let's take it further though:

Zimmerman contacted authorities and was told by the operated not to pursue Trayvon. Zimmerman brought the loaded weapon with him to the pursuit and Zimmerman even in his 911 call showed an obvious racially charged anger toward Trayvon. Zimmerman than gets OFF OF THE PHONE ending his call with the 911 operator stating they 'could reach him on his cell phone'. Before getting off of the phone though Zimmerman states that Trayvon is running away. Listen to the call that is being argued wether he said 'coon' or not and you can CLEARLY here Zimmerman get out of his car and slam the door. These last three steps indicate: he wasn't in fear for his life because he ended the call with the 911 operator; he was running after Trayvon (this now cancels out the statement of "he is walking towards me" and "he has something in his hands" as stand your ground law DOES NOT cover when you chase after the would be assailant); HE CLEARLY LIED WHEN HE STATED HE GOT OUT OF HIS CAR TO CHECK THE STREET SIGN AND GOT HIT FROM BEHIND. Now we have the 3 witnesses who have been interviewed by several different media outlets who have given their full names and ages and who all say the cries they heard for help came from Trayvon. Let's at this point handle the witness of John who refused to give his last name (why?) and refused to be shown on camera while only being interviewed by Fox News. He said that it was Zimmerman getting beat by Trayvon but then when Fox News plays his phone call notice how he says there are two men wrestling...he DID NOT say there was a young african american man assaulting a white man...he did not give ANY details on the 911 call, he only gave them to Fox News 3 weeks AFTER the murder took place. The other witness who "saw" Zimmerman on the ground admited that he saw Zimmerman in need of help (once again not being assaulted, not being attacked but in need of help) but then this man's dog got off the leash and he left Zimmerman to chase his dog (what neighbor see's a man getting assaulted and then leaves to go and get his dog). While going to get his dog the man says he heards screams for help, followed by a loud bang (gunshot) and then the screams ended. The screams ended RIGHT AFTER the gunshot, this would go hand in hand with the others testimony saying that Trayvon screamed for help twice before he was killed. These facts ALL point to a 2nd degree murder charge (could be first degree murder which states that any murder committed while 'committing intimidation' to be first degree. Once again even IF Zimmerman was sober (experts point to his slurred speach as possible intoxication), even if he was loosing the tussle against Trayvon (highly unlikely given his 110 pound larger frame), even if he cried for help it was still soley he who created the scenario and because it led to the death of an innocent party he must face manslaughter. Seeing as those ifs are highly unlikely ifs he should face murder convicition and somewhere around 25 years in prison. Stop arguing moot points trying to stick of for this idiot.

downinggrover - There is no evidence independent of Zimmerman as to who started the fight.

You are simply trying to make the facts fit your opinion.

The only witnesses simply heard a fight start. They have no way of knowing who started it.

And of course a person who is in neighborhood watch can ask a person if they live in the gated community. When the person is evasive in answering or physically evasive, you certainly can follow them. At that point, no laws were broken.

Can you imagine the police arresting Zimmerman for asking him if he lived there and then following him when he wouldn't answer and took off?

Of course not. Had it ended there, no one would say Zimmerman should be charged.

So then it comes down to the fight itself. Namely, who started it. If Zimmerman says that Martin started it, there simply is no evidence to the contrary.

Then (and I'm speculating here) I figure Zimmerman said that Martin went for his gun. Again, no evidence to the contrary.

Without any evidence to the contrary, there is more than reasonable doubt for a murder charge. Heck, at this point there is reasonable doubt for a assault/battery charge.

The police need evidence to prove Zimmerman is lying. They simply don't have it - hence why there are no charges.

There are plenty of people the police would like to charge, but they have to have enough evidence to actually get a conviction.

Despite all the trumped up racism and emotions of this case, Zimmerman is still the only witness.

Frank Taaffe pointed out the circumstances that he believes led his 28-year-old neighbor to react the way he did on the night of Feb. 26: Eight burglaries within 15 months, most done by young black males, he said.

"The stage was already set. It was a perfect storm,” Taaffe said.

“I think any time you use a weapon, there are certain anger issues working,” Taaffe said. “I think he had fed-up issues. He was mad as hell and wasn't going to take it anymore.”

So what is Taaffe trying to say here? That if you are stressed & obsessed then it is okay to shoot someone? Suspicion and paranoia aren't good reasons to start stalking people or approach & intimidate them. I just don't see the point to this man coming to Zimmerman's defense unless he feels that is an acceptable excuse. The houses on my street have been plagued with vandalism for the last year or so. Does that give me free reign to start following every teenager that I see on our street?

Having a breaking point is not called self defense. It is called going POSTAL. If this had happened in a workplace or school parking lot then Zimmerman would have instantly gone to jail. How should the setting make a difference in his motives? Being suspicious doesn't give you license to kill whether you are on the street or in a gated community.

Twin Lakes’ population is ethnically mixed. A few residents said there is tension within the gated community, but Taaffe insisted Tuesday that Zimmerman was acting out of concern for the safety of the area.

Race is something I've tried not to focus on when thinking about this case. But Zimmerman was caught on tape using a racial slur while he was following the kid. It doesn't really matter what race Zimmerman is. No need to keep debating it. I don't care if Zimmerman were an Inuit. As long as he had enough venom to use that word, then he is a bit racist. If he felt strongly enough about a stereotype to start stalking the kid, then he is a racist. Whether or not he was looking to hunt a black kid can be speculated on, but there should be no question on his racist views at this point.

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RevLucifer...the real question all shoi;d be asking and are not...was this boy doing anything that constitutes breaking any laws when he was chasewd by the shooter...who evidently had his own problems with blacks ? If...as has been shown by 911 calss and by reports from a witness who was talking to this young man at the time he was shot...Just who was in the wrong...who was the chaser/agressor in this incident...certainly ot the young man...he did not confront the shooter...he did not chase the shooter..he was unarmed to boot..unless a cup of tea has become a weapon as of now. Being a watch captain means nothing ..no responsibilities at all..no power at all...for his neighbor to back him in this killing makes him just as guilty...he is condoning what was done...as, of...its just too bad...if this were turned around and a black had shot a young white boy using the same excuse..he would already be behind bars.

Boocs2006 -

You are obviously caught up in the emotional aspect of this story. We are all relying on accounts written by "journalists". Granted, some of the more impressive among us have done more homework. My point is this - I am not DEFENDING ANYONE....so stop the snark just because my view doesn't necessarily or exactly fit your view. Besides, you have no clue how I reacted to this story when I heard about it, so go stick it! You seem to attempt to shout down others who disagree or simply want to understand what in the hell went on with this case without assuming the worst. That, Boocs, is what disgusts me. From reading Leathernecks comments, I can only conclude he, also, is NOT DEFENDING ANYONE! He is, in my opinion, putting forth his opinion based on facts as he knows them. If you're "sick" or "disgusted", it is you who likely has an issue. FYI - I have four boys, one of which could have reacted the same as Trevyon did, and I didn't take this story so well either! Believe me, Zimmerman is accountable and will suffer because he has killed an innocent kid. His ultimate punishment just might not meet with your satisfaction.

To DrowningGrover - Who seems far less racially motivated and more controlled than Boocs2006

Yeah, I also thought that Trevyon was assaulted at first which would pave the way for a manslaughter charge at minimum. In fact, that is why I was so surprised by the fact Zimmerman wasn't arrested. Leatherneck makes a probable case for why he was not. He has some good points - even if I don't want to agree with them.

For example, say someone is using real profane language as he is walking down a public way within ear shot of a bunch of 4 year old kids. Say I follow this dude and accost him....question him. Say I weigh 245 pounds and stand 6'-1" and am built like a out of shape weight lifter and the dude looks to be a 20 something kid, 5'-4", with his pants hanging below his butt. I ask him, "Hey, who are you and why are you using that sort of language in front of these kids, ya jerk!" He reels around and starts getting defiant and snarky with me. Has anyone broken any laws...YET? (I know, I know, this was a young kid in a scary situation....not apples to apples.) My point is technical, understand? Now, say I state, "Stop your damn swearing, or else!" (BTW- I recognize the hypocrisy.) OK, now some lawyer can say, that what I said rose to the level of assault - especially if I had my hands all balled up and ready for action! Then suppose I really loose control and poke that dude. Man-o-man have I crossed a line I wished I wouldn't have because what I did can be construed as battery and everything that happens from here on in looks bad for me! My point is that you have, in your mind, determined that Trevyon was assaulted because of the surrounding circumstances rather than an overt threat. I believe Leatherneck is looking at the facts and concluding Trevyon was accosted, but not necessarily assaulted. I truly don't know how that would play out in a criminal court where the burden of proof is high for the DA.

As for me, not being a trial lawyer, I tend to sympathize very much with the claim that Zimmerman's actions could constitute "assault". But, I say that out of my personal revulsion for anybody following or questioning me and not on legal definitions and law.

In any event, Leatherneck made some good points that provided some explanation for how the case was handled so far. It caused me to re-think the matter and give some clue as to how the case has been handled.

Regarding why the police didn't perform a sobriety test or any claims that statements were not taken properly, I can not validate them. If you have any real hard proof of these things happening, then please let me know....and then, maybe, alternate motives on the part of the investigators can be assigned.

I'm just trying to be rational in this discussion as this is a hot button in reguards to the Stand Your Ground Law,

Dawgfan-4710266

Dawgfan (end zone seats?) The thing is I don't see anything rational about this whole situation at all. I think that it is pretty darn clear that this kid (Martin) was where he was supposed to be. He wasn't a thief, he wasn't posing a threat to anyone. He was an invited guest to a resident. He was 11 years younger, and 110 pounds lighter I believe. There should be no argument that the kid should not have been shot. But the debating over the interpretation of the Stand Your Ground law, and whether Zimmerman can slip through the cracks in the law is BS at best. The fact that an innocent kid was killed tells me that there is something wrong.

Jeebusrip - what it comes down to is this: it doesn't matter who threw the first punch - if Zimmerman had not gone out of his way to create this situation, Martin would still be alive and NOTHING would have come out of it. Zimmerman needs to take responsibility for the situation HE HIMSELF created, not Martin. This law was not meant to protect people who CREATE situations, but rather those that find themselves in a situation through NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN, who was Martin that night.

Forget your legalities take on this - this is a moral issue, and there is no other way to frame it.

This law was not meant to protect people who CREATE situations, but rather those that find themselves in a situation through NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN, who was Martin that night.

boocs2006 - I agree, and I had read that the authors of the Stand Your Ground Law even said it wasn't intended for this type of situation.

"He has no protection under my law," former Sen. Durell Peaden told the newspaper.

But yet it seems that since the incident occurred on Feb. 26 and an investigation is happening as the result of massive national publicity, that they don't know how to really interpret or how to work with this law. I guess you can kill an unarmed person, say it was self defense and no questions asked. Your free to go. Just like the wild west. So the message goes out to all Floridians, for your own safety, shoot first and ask questions later.

To DrowningGrover - Who seems far less racially motivated and more controlled than Boocs2006

Thank you jebbusrip, I try not to get to emotional with this.

In fact I do not think that Zimmerman's actions were entirely racially motivated (outside of profiling him as a "suspicious black," but that doesn't make it a hate crime). Now, the Sanford PD on the other hand...

Yeah, I also thought that Trevyon was assaulted at first which would pave the way for a manslaughter charge at minimum. In fact, that is why I was so surprised by the fact Zimmerman wasn't arrested. Leatherneck makes a probable case for why he was not. He has some good points - even if I don't want to agree with them.

He is making some good points (barely), but I don't even think the law will eventually end up agreeing with him (especially once an actual investigation is conducted, not the keystone cop job performed by the Sanford PD). As boocs2006 said in 2.158, Zimmerman created this situation himself when he chose to pursue Martin. If Martin felt threatened by Zimmerman pursuing him, as he clearly did, then Zimmerman is guilty of assault at worst, and criminal harassment at best. At that point, "stand your ground" goes out the window. It's STAND your ground, not TAKE AS MUCH GROUND AS YOU LIKE.

Regardless, Zimmerman initiated the aggressive contact and therefore he cannot claim self-defense. I would hope that the law will agree (Sanford PD didn't seem to agree, but then again, they barely took evidence, didn't drug/alcohol test Zimmerman, tried to withhold the 911 tapes from the family, covered up Zimmermans' 2005 arrest, possibly tampered with witness statements, etc., etc., etc. This is why I feel the Sanford PD's actions were racially motivated, in that they effectively said "black kid dead, white guy claims self defense, nothing to see here, move along" and ended the investigation. And yes, Zimmerman is listed as white on the police report, I don't want to open the whole White vs. Hispanic can of worms again.) This has to go down as manslaughter (they will never prove murder cause Sanford PD did such a @!$%#ty job with the initial investigation).

And, if in the end, the law does not agree and Zimmerman goes scot-free, then this sets a dangerous horrific precedent for all wannabe murderers in Florida. Simply follow your victim through dark alleyways, fields, between homes, wherever your victim goes without identifying yourself. The instant your victim wheels to confront you, shoot them twice in the chest, tell the police they reached for their wasteband and that you thought they may have had a gun. Viola, you're free to go via "stand your ground."

It's nonsense and this cannot stand. Zimmerman must go to jail or the law has failed society.

So Zimmerman is now lying about his racial classification? He said he was white, and obviously is accepted as such based on the testimony of his neighbors and such, and the fact that his race is listed as White. Sounds like something a racist would do, hide behind an ethnic classification generally thought of as Mestizo/Mulatto (non-white) in order to not seem like a racist (white supremacist).

I have NEVER heard any "non-white Hispanic" (ie Mestizo/Mulatto) refer to a black person as a coon. This sounds like something a racist (white supremacist) would do.

Actually, the comparison of this situation to the Wild West is interesting. I listen to a lot of old Gunsmoke radio shows. Those shows were pretty gritty, and very well researched for accuracies. In the stories, it's very clear that two men could "duel" it out, and the victor could walk away free. It's also clear that if one shot an unarmed man, they were guilty of murder. They had to wait for the other man to draw a weapon before they could claim self-defense.

In this case, Zimmerman shot an unarmed boy. Any excuse he might offer that he thought he saw Martin with a weapon wouldn't have been acceptable even in the Wild West.

I don't understand this new law in Florida, doesn't self defense cover the same thing? What am I missing?

I can't believe anyone is willing to defend this guy. Speaks volumes. And gee, wonder what those tensios within the community are?

"It’s really sad that he's already been convicted in the public media and has already been sentenced to the gas chamber,” Taaffe said. “Let's let justice do its job."

It's even sadder that a teen's life is over because he was tried, convicted, and executed by some guy who found Trayvon suspicious because of his skin color.

Justice wouldn't be doing its job were it not for the public outrage that has welled up all over the world. This incident would have been over and Zimmerman back on his beat based on Sanford police's determination that night.

Protest works.

borac80, this law is different because it doesn't apply to your home or property and exempts people from having to flee for their safety. No one would blink if the kid was breaking into a home and was shot. The problem with this stand your ground law is that the police are saying in absence of evidence to the contrary, they have to assume self-defense. That's the BS part. Zimmerman provoked the situation and used deadly force, that is not self defense.

This is disgusting and keeping me awake at night. Even if this young man were attempting to break into someones home...is death an appropriate punishment? Zimmerman and his kind need to be sent a strong message about this kind of hate crime. Public hanging gets my vote.

The law states that you don't have to make any effort to get away from the situation, and if there are no witnesses and you say you felt threatened the case is dismissed, if it is even brought at all. Apparently skittles made Zimmerman feel threatened! Same law exists in Utah, Arizona, Texas, Oklahoma, Michigan, Indiana, Kentucky, Tennessee, Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina and Florida. Anyone see a pattern?

borac80,

This law appears to be similar to what we have in my state now that the lawmakers have come to their senses. Until our "castle doctrine" law passed, you were required to "retreat" from a confrontation - if possible - prior to defending yourself.

In other words, if a disenfranchised individual confronted me with a gun and asked me to hand over my possessions in favor of my life, I had to find a way to flee the situation prior to defending myself.

Now, if the same disenfranchised individual confronts me with a gun - with the associated threat to my person, property, or another - I am within the law to draw my own weapon and put two between their t*tties and one in their coconut.

Of course, I have to be in a place where I have a legal right to be. I can't break into your home and shoot you when you confront me with a weapon. You have the legal right to be there, I don't.

Basically, this law means that law-abiding citizens no longer have to cower in fear of the loss of their life when confronted by someone who couldn't care less about the laws in our society.

" Even if this young man were attempting to break into someones home...is death an appropriate punsihment."

If your breaking into my house with my kids and wife, I am not going to wait and see if you a glock or skittles! So yes this is a completely different circumstance but best believe I will protect my family. I would shoot to injure not kill but hey if you break into my house that is the chance YOUR taking.

How many of you know the facts? Many of you state that Zimmerman has been tried in the press, then you go on and make your own judgement of guilt known. Why did the teen become belligerent? Why didn't he simply state he was heading to his father's house? The whole thing is a tragedy, including the mob justice some of you seek.

No, Big John, that only happens if the victim is white. If fat Zimmerman were black, he'd still not be in jail. If Martin were white, the shooter would be. The color would not matter.

How many of you know the facts? Many of you state that Zimmerman has been tried in the press, then you go on and make your own judgement of guilt known. Why did the teen become belligerent? Why didn't he simply state he was heading to his father's house? The whole thing is a tragedy, including the mob justice some of you seek.

@Ray in Jax

If you had an unknown person STALKING you and you were fearful of your life, would you have had the composure to explain your situation? According to Trayvon's girlfriend, he was on the phone with her when Zimmerman pushed him the instant AFTER he asked Trayvon why he was here.

David, if Trayvon were breaking into your house with your wife and your children in it that would be one thing. But that is nowhere near the situation that got Trayvon killed.

AmyRose92: Hey when can you see the other side of the phone? According to Trayvon's girlfriend, he was on the phone with her when Zimmerman pushed him the instant AFTER he asked Trayvon why he was here.

She is guessing, she has no way of knowing if Zim pushed Trayvon after asking why he was there or if Trayvon attacked ZIM instead of just answering the question.

So tell me o bright one, how can the girlfirend even know who pushed who first....

I have serious concerns regarding the reading comprehension skills of some of the posters. The man was Hispanic. It's stated in the article. Idiots.

I'm white. I'm sorry for the killing of Trayvon Martin. Simply speaking, if Zimmerman was black and Trayvon was white, we all know how this would have played out... Z would be in jail, there would be a whole butt-load of evidence against him, and Zimmerman would never see the light of day again. Instead, Z is a "white" guy (sort of), and his word is taken.. who cares if a n**ger gets shot, right? The South wonders why they are stereotyped as racists...why?

My thoughts exactly AmyRose.

Zimmerman was the one in the wrong. Why was he following this kid? Because he was black? Because he claims in the past they had break ins in the neighborhood and the break ins were done by black people....how does he know this? Were they arrested and that is how he knows their skin color? So then why not let the police do their job again if in the past they arrested the people doing the break ins.

Zimmerman is a hard a$$ wanna be that should not be in charge of any neighborhood watch. He should be punished just as any murderer should. Sorry doesn't cut it!

From the sounds coming from the phone? From the kid saying something like "Don't push me?"

My son who is white was walking across a parking lot at night when a car drove up...four black guys jumped out and almost beat him to death with baseball bats. He was fortunate that others in the parking lot intervened. The police said it was an initiation rite by a local black gang. None of this made it into any newspaper...or on MSNBC for that matter. This was a hate crime but my son was white so it didn't warrant attention by the media. Unfortunately, crimes by black gangs are real...most are black on black crimes. If a group of skin heads beat a black person with baseball bats it'd be in the national news like this is. In my opinion (not to defend Zimmerman...I don't approve of any citizens roaming the streets with guns looking for someone doing a crime) this reaction is at the high level it is because everyone thinks it's some redneck, southerner we saw in the sixties beating up black people. That's why the issue that he's hispanic and not a southern redneck is being pointed out. My condolences go out to this young man's family. This is a tragedy that should never have happened. But it shouldn't be turned into a race issue that will stir up more hatred and possibly lead to additional violence.

This is disgusting and keeping me awake at night. Even if this young man were attempting to break into someones home...is death an appropriate punishment? Zimmerman and his kind need to be sent a strong message about this kind of hate crime. Public hanging gets my vote.

If someone is breaking into my home, I'm not going to offer them tea and ask what exactly they are trying to do and what might you be stealing tonight? Break into my home and yes...death is not only the appropriate punishment,,,,,,,it's the only one I'm going to give them. Sorry if I'm not use to this sort of thing. Maybe where you live in the hood that happens all the time and you just "deal" with it, but where I live if someone breaks into your home they just signed their death certificate.

RicCastagna - What you're really describing is, in the absence of sympathetic witnesses, he who draws and fires first...wins...legally.

If the young man was acting in a threatening manner then he probably got what he deserved. It's not as if this guy shot him in cold blood. There is a reasonable case for self defense here.

People younger than that kid will kill you for looking at them in some parts of the world, so why take the chance?

Randy: walking down the street in a light rain is very threatening. If he had been running home in a thunderstorm then, *OMG*, pull out the bazooka an blow his butt away.

There is no self defense needed if Zimmerman had listened to the police dispatcher and not been following Martin. Cause and effect.

And Zimmerman had no authority to confront Martin in the first place.

People younger than that kid will kill you for looking at them in some parts of the world, so why take the chance?

What an unreasonable outlook. If he had not followed the kid, the kid would be alive. So why take the chance? Well, shoot, let's all get armed and NOT take any chances.

"George is going to suffer for years and years," he said.

Poor, poor George.

As I stated above, you ALL have it wrong...

There IS A DUTY TO RETREAT. Florida Castle Doctrine and the "Stand Your Ground" laws DO NOT APPLY HERE.

Zimmerman was not in his home, place of business, automobile, or motel room. CASTLE DOCTRINE DOES NOT APPPLY.

Any of you people have your Florida CWP's and understand the LAWS?

Major credit to the parents of Trayvon Martin for taking their fight through the Justice deptment. I have no faith in our current justice system and in this situation as a father of young children I would now be facing trial after the death of Mr. Zimmerman. Mr. Matin and Ms. Fulton you are better people than I and I wish that the justice system do their jobs and do a better job than the Stanford police dept. who in the VERY LEAST should have done a toxicology screening and background check on Mr. Zimmerman at the scene.

Zimmerman is HISPANIC you morons!!!

Kaymer you moron...why does the police report say he is white? Only person to say he was Hispanic was his father. His father also said earlier "at no point did my son follow Trayvon Martin." Than the 911 tapes were released. His father only brought up his "Hispanic" heritage when speaking about the racial bias his son was being accused of.

The neighbor virtually admitted wrong doing here, that his anger had come to a head and he should not have used a weapon. Try to excuse this and maybe come up with a manslaughter charge but this was a wrongful death.

I think we should stop being judge and jury here and wait until all the facts of the case are known. I feel for both families because this event has forever changed them and their lives. This board finds it impossible to use a calm, level head on just about any matter today. It is no wonder these sort of events happen, or maybe it is amazing more of these events don't happen routinely. The hatred on this board is just like the fear and perhaps hatred that precipitated this horrible event.

@Mike-306915

I'm not speaking to FL law - I know how it reads in my state. I can use force when I am in any place I have a legal right to be. It does not need to be my "home". If I'm walking in the park and it appears that I'm going to be on the receiving end of some gang initiation (as Ron detailed happened to is son above) rite, I have the protection of the law to draw my weapon and use it appropriately.

Also, had I been in the park the night when Ron's son was attacked, I could defend his son with my gun as we have an "alter ego" clause in our laws.

I'm sure FL has their own nuances - the point I've tried to make in several of my posts/replies is that laws such as castle doctrine laws were passed as a way for the law-abiding to protect themselves from those who couldn't care less about the law.

However, they are not laws that one should "hide behind" as it appears has happened in other FL cases and may happen in this one as well. Sadly, even the most well intentioned law can be folded, spindled and mutilated by an attorney, and considering Orlando has John Morgan, "DUI" Dan Newlin, and a few other bottom feeders swimming around there, I'm sure Zimmerman will be able to find someone who can hide him behind the "Stand your ground" statute.

Of course, the mob justice mentality that's being fomented by the NAACP, and the two dumb-as-dirt politicians from Jacksonville and Miami who are piling on, aren't going to do anything to help the situation in the least little bit.

Seems to me much fo the responsibility for this tragedy falls on the shoulders of the Fla legislature, it's governor who apparently enthusiastically signed the law, and a voting public that allowed such a law to take effect. What I have heard/read is that the law not only allows a very loose standard permitting vigilante justice, it discourages fact finding and in fact in practice discourages charges from being brought, period. Whatever Zimmerman thought he was doing at the time (and why the h#ll he did not obey the dispatcher's instructions is beyond me), he had much less opportunity to think through the ramifications than did the legislature which created the framework for such horrific events.

h#ll he did not obey the dispatcher's instructions=If a police Dispatcher told you to brake into a house would you do it, if a police dispatcher told you to stay in your home while it was being burglarized yet you know you could go out a window with out being seen would you stay inside. Failure to follow a police dispatcher is not against the law or criminal.

The press has been horrible on this case and MSNBC has been the worst...they are practically calling for the death of Zimmerman. What we know so far is that Zimmerman made a poor decision to follow Martin and confront him, but Martin made a worse decision and attacked Zimmerman causing a bloody nose and blunt force trauma to the back of zimmermans head.

Zimmerman screamed for help (yes I know it's hard to accept but it was Zimmerman) and in a panic pulled his weapon and fired killing his attacker.

it all could have been prevented if zimmerman wouldn't have gone after martin and let the police handle the situation, but he made a bad choice and now he will have to face either a civil suit or perhaps a criminal trial with a reduced murder charge.

Also it is shameful the way the press has portrayed martin as a sweet innocent young man, who just happend to have been kicked out of two different highschools and was currently serving a 10 day suspension from his third highschool. Shame on you MSNBC will you not be satisfied until a full blown race war is ignited.

The minute Zimmerman got out of his car to pursue Martin, against the directions of the police 911 dispatcher, he lot all right to claim self defense or apply the "stand your ground" law to this situation. What we have here is a racist vigilante with an itchy trigger finger who wanted to shoot someone. All doubts about this being racially motivated are removed by the numerous 911 calls Zimmerman had made previously reporting on suspicious blacks in his neighborhood, never calling in to report suspicious whites or hispanics. Zimmerman was clearly the aggressor here and there is no way he can claim self defense under the stand your ground law. Even if there were a confrontation, there is no way that Zimmerman can claim that he feared for his life when he is considerably taller and at least 40 pounds heavier than this kid. Zimmerman should be immediately arrested, charged with second degree murder with a hate crime enhancement, and bound over for trial. There is absolutely no justification for this piece of @!$%# hunting down and shooting this unarmed kid who was simply walking home from the 7-11.

JS in SD

that is your option not LAW.

No Leatherneck, that actually is the gist of the law. Stand you ground means just that, standing your ground against and aggressor, the law does not allow you to pursue someone and then claim you were only standing your ground.

JS in SD: I'm not going to keep arguing with someone who possible never there life had to go to court to testify or defend there actions in a court of law.

The stand your ground did not start in tell the altercation started.

So even if ZIM did not follow the dispatchers advice to stop following the kid, to asking questions of the kid, to the kid walking away from a strange guy to not answering the strange guys questions. All of this in a court of law does not mean ****. None of this is illegal or criminal, so in a criminal case none of this will even be a factor. The main factor in a criminal case will be the Altercation and the result in that altercation. So who attacked who first will the the main factor in a criminal case. Now in a civil cases do to its way different then a criminal case everything can be a factor as to why this happened.

ZIM might not get charged criminally, but will get his *** handed to him, in a civil case do to they will uses everything against him.

Just like OJ Simpson, he was found innocent of killing his wife, but was found responsible for his wife's murder in a civil trial.

Why do you think that is. Same rules apply here as they do then.

Leatherneck, you apparently beleive that all moral code should be derived from whatever the "law" says. That's all you argue, defending Zimmerman by saying he didn't do anything "against the law". Don't you have a sense of right and wrong? Our laws are meant to make people accountable for doing wrong, but are not intended to be the social barometer that we measure acts of right and wrong.

I saw another poster state that gun control laws are intentionally written as ambiguous because it is impossible to explicitly define all the circumstances it might apply or not apply. This makes perfect sense to me. That Zimmerman's actions are being debated as towards the application of the law is correct.

I do think that the police utterly failed in their obligation to treat Zimmerman as a suspect after the shooting and perform drug and alcohol tests that night on him. I also beleive it's standard practice to arrest the shooter after a death, pending further investigation. This is to prevent a suspect from covering up or manufacturing evidence while they are free. I'm disgusted that it looks like we have to wait for the April 10th grand jury hearing for anything more to progress on this.

I'd at least have some respect for Zimmerman if he would come out and admit he made a mistake, and take some responsibility for taking this young man's life. But at this point, no one knows if he feels any remorse at all, other than regretting the difficulties it's caused in his own life.

"... already been convicted..." ... no, he has not even been arrested AND he still gets to walk around armed and dangerous. As far as this all being "... out of control...", please answer this... what if the young man who is dead now had been old enough to have had permission to legally carry a gun and, under this same scenario had shot and killed Zimmerman because he felt threatened because he was being followed, do you think he'd be in jail right now... do you think white folks would be all up in arms over that... would YOU be out here talking about what's "... out of control..."?

Sorry, AG, this is a mixed race community. There are blacks in this neighborhood and I'm sure they feel they have a right to walk down the street like the white residents. By your reasoning, any male resident of that community who happens to be black is suspect and game for harassment. Frankly, that's bullpucky. Lets just clamp a curfew on all residents at sundown and turn this into a police state. Burglaries happy, that doesn't give anyone the right to harass citizens walking down the street. Even the police have to have reasonable suspicion before they stop a person.

So, if you want to walk in this neighborhood, you need to paint your face White, or "things can get out of hand"? No, hell no, AG99. That doesn't wash. I was a cop in Florida for years and even in uniform, I knew that suspects had rights. There is NO excuse for what this murderous bastard did. Yes, he has convicted himself in several ways. Watch captains may not be armed. FAIL! Dispatcher told him not to follow suspect. FAIL! Suspect was unarmed. FAIL ! Killer used racially colored language, showing his bias. FAIL! Law enforcement blew this one from the start. A shooting occurs, you take the shooter in, you perform basic crime scene examinations. You submit your report to SAO before releasing shooter. Does anyone know where to find this murderer? If not that is an epic FAIL for the Police Department.

Still doesn't justify Zimmerman CONFRONTING him even when the police told him not to. Even if Travyon was there with the intent to rob some houses (with his Skittles and ice tea?), shouldn't Zimmerman have simply kept tabs on where he was until the police arrived?

Since when does "I can see how this got out of hand" become an endorsement of this shooting? Where do I say it's okay to shoot young black males walking in the community because of recent crime? Reading comprehension, people! You're so fired up with righteous indignation, any comment not a screaming denunciation is taken as support for Zimmerman.

All I'm asking for is a little perspective, not knee-jerk reactions.

Well hell AG, by your very own reasoning, since ALL serial killers are white males I should just start shooting every white male I see that looks to be between 18-35 and in my opinion "doesn't look quite right". Give or take 10-20 years since i'm just not that good at judging age. Your statement speaks volumes about you.

Do half of you people even read the article? George Zimmerman is not WHITE! He is HISPANIC! Stop making this a racist White on Black issue.

Shellie: It's pretty clear you have no idea what my reasoning is. You're very quick to pass judgment on a comment you obviously didn't understand.

(And I've got to go now so don't expect any replies any time soon.)

Since when does "I can see how this got out of hand" become an endorsement of this shooting? Where do I say it's okay to shoot young black males walking in the community because of recent crime? Reading comprehension, people! You're so fired up with righteous indignation, any comment not a screaming denunciation is taken as support for Zimmerman.

All I'm asking for is a little perspective, not knee-jerk reactions.

Sorry AG, but I doubt you're going to get the type of comments that you seek. This case is an emotionally charged one. Most of what you're going to get is knee-jerk reactions.

It is unquestionable that Zimmerman should have just called the police, kept an eye on the person he saw as suspicious and then waited for the police to arrive and do their job. He never, ever should have confronted anyone he saw acting suspicious. If he really wanted to deter a potential crime from being committed by what he considered to be a suspicious person he could have easily just made his presence known, without directly engaging him, which would typically make someone who really was looking to commit a crime leave the area (burglaries and such don't usually happen while a crowd is watching). The LIMITED and ONE-SIDED information that has been released does paint a very bad picture and does make Zimmerman appear to have committed a terrible and unconscionable act.

HOWEVER, I am utter appalled by the reactions and comments of people on these blogs. The hypocrisy and complete devolution of people on here is astounding. How can you call Zimmerman racist while disparaging him because of his own Hispanic heritage? How can you chastise him actions as being those of judge, jury, and executioner while yourselves demanding he be seized without a trial and killed outright? You even are threatening to kill his family! His FAMILY! Since when do we as a civilization kill members of a person's family because we don't like that person's actions?!? What are we, communist soviets?? It's like Lord of the Flies around here!! No wonder people like Zimmerman feel the need to carry guns - with people like the vitriolic, violent, and nihilist people commenting on this board out there it's clearly every man for himself and safer to shot first and ask questions later! You people really need to rein it in quite a bit and let the justice system do its job. If you find you can't, then I suggest you seek medical help for your extreme anger issues.

"How can you call Zimmerman racist while disparaging him because of his own Hispanic heritage?"

I don't know that I've seen people disparaging him because of his own racial heritage, but the 911 tape is pretty clear:

"At the 2:21 mark, Zimmerman clearly says the words “@!$%#ing coons” under his breath. The dispatcher immediately asks Zimmerman if he’s following Trayvon. “Yeah,” Zimmerman replies. “OK, we don’t need you to do that,” says the 911 operator."

Figure it out.

Race has nothing to do with this, It is not fun when your home and your cars have been broken into and you know it is the kid down the street. There is nothing you can do to stop it and the cops are too busy to do anything. Then you are questioned because your dogsbark at the kid when he walks by the house. It is not ok knowing that some punk, (white black or blue) thinks it is ok to just take what he wants, it kinda
sucks and we all know that. Zimmerman was at his braking point we have all been
there (now we don’t all shot people that was not a positive move on his part), but we have all felt at that end of our rope before. It is not our place or our job to judge this man there must be more to this story than we all hear because he has not been arrested, and there has to be a reason for that.

@AmyRose92 and AG... sorry, but a "knee-jerk reaction" that ended the life of an unarmed teen was what started this whole debate. People react to what the see and what they know, and in this case what the 911 tapes say. How would you have people respond...? The only reason this case is getting this exposure is because people are talking about it, this was going to be swept under the rug just as it's been in the past... knee-jerk, I would suggest that you and anyone else who truly believe that go and look at the definition of that phrase, although I would characterize the response to this shooting as "predictable", it is\was ANYTHING but immediate, at least nationally... THIS HAPPENED 3 WEEKS AGO!

82AllAmericans: if the roles were reversed, we wouldn't be talking about it, because a black kid killing a white guy wouldn't be considered a "hate crime" and no one would care.

dboygoode -82AllAmericans: if the roles were reversed, we wouldn't be talking about it, because a black kid killing a white guy wouldn't be considered a "hate crime" and no one would care.

BUT, the black kid would have been arrested. BIG difference. Zimmerman was not. Even though he disobeyed police orders to STOP FOLLOWING the kid. You can't spin that any other way!

Gee why are you even comparing a white kid on this one. READ THE DAMN ARTICLE AND DO YOUR RESEARCH MORONS. ZIMMERMAN IS HISPANIC!!!

@Kayner... Maybe YOU are the one who needs to do research, we know Zimmerman is Hispanic... OK. I was going to reply to your "comment", but it's obvious you cannot follow the conversation.

AmyRose: Yeah, I know. I look for rationalism in places it's not likely to be and am disappointed in what I find. I think coleslaw has the right of it, but people don't want to hear it.

82AllAmericans: Perhaps "knee-jerk" wasn't the right word. How about "one-sided" instead? I always try to see both sides to anything, because I believe no one wakes up in the morning and thinks, "I'm going to be evil today."

The "perfect storm" was a lack of ACTUAL law enforcement / security experience and a lack of judgement on the part of the shooter and a lack of competence on the part of local and state law enforcement officials in their handling of this matter so far.

Not only does the shooter need to held accountable for the actions that led to the death of an unarmed teen, but law enforcement officials need to be standing tall as well, because there is NO WAY charges shouldn't have already been filed !!

bagdadjoe-1347766

You or I wasn't there but the 911 recordings and those words heard by his girlfriend were!!!

This isn't the KKK days you are likely to be hung by your own rope.

bagdadjoe: I know. I've been thinking the same thing. Talk about vigilante justice, which isn't justice at all, just mob revenge.

No, neither of us was there, but we are citizens and have the right to expect justice. At a minimum, we have the right to expect competence and dedication from law enforcement. A cop on the scene never has the authority to dismiss a case like this. An arrest has to be made; a full investigation has to be carried out, involving the Medical Examiner, the State Attorney's Office and the forensic unit with jurisdiction. This apparently was not done. The reason appears to be racial. If not, then someone needs to explain what the reason was. I speak from years of law enforcement experience, including several homicide investigations.

Exactly Norm. I don't understand why it wasn't even investigated. The cops just took his word for it when a kid died? Seriously? Is that even allowed?

You guys missed something. All articles I've read state that after an investigation, Mr. Zimmerman wasn't charged for lack of evidence. So Norm you're saying that an arrest has to be made even if there's no evidence a crime has been committed? I'm not talking about what's in the papers, just the facts presented to the police. Up my way a few years back we had this same sort of public outcry concerning a crime allegedly commited by several white college athletes against a black girl. The prosecuter kowtowed to the usual group of black ministers and activists in general. Comment boards were running 95% to fry these white devils. I'm sure all you ultra-informed readers are aware how that situation ended. These "teenagers" were fortunate that their parents had the resources to get to the bottom of the situation or the well meaning folks like most of you would have convicted them without a trial. By the way, I don't read or watch Fox News.

Ron: Another voice of reason in the wilderness. There's a real mob mentality to some of the comments here. It's frightening.

Yup, if you live in Florida!

Of course, if you shoot "white boys" you might have to sit in a jail cell, until you go to court and use the "stand your ground" defense!

Zimmerman is NOT WHITE, he is HISPANIC.

hispanic is white

Sounds like you guys harbor some ill will towards people who happen to be white. Don't you see that such an attitude is on the same side of the coin as the attitude that got this young kid shot... I don't care if you are trying to make a point. To say that this killing is grotesque because of the race issues involved and then talk as though you would love to go shoot some white people to see how they like it, basically, is sickening to me.

Exactly right Stephanie! When my nephew was a teen, he & his "posse" of aimless white boys used to break into cars & houses. My sister found a slew of credit cards hidden under his mattress. I guess he should have been shot for B & E. Now he's a responsible 43 yr. old business owner. At least he got to live past 17!

This Charles Bronson wannabe "neighborhood watch" volunteer had NO business carrying a LOADED gun. If it was so dark he couldn't determine jeans from sweat pants, he had NO business pursuing someone walking on a sidewalk.

I find it interesting that this guy is defending his neighbor and is identified as another "neighborhood watch" volunteer cuz every single thing I've read about the community says that Zimmerman was the ONLY member. But all of a sudden, 3 weeks after the fact, THIS yahoo says he's ALSO in the watch?

Treyvon's parents need to sue the entire HOA for this wrongful death since Zimmerman was "protecting" them and he was representing them. The police chief needs to lose his job for NOT investigating, drug and alcohol testing Zimmerman, and accepting the word of someone the dept. knew made frivilious calls complaining 46 times. Not buying the 'scratches" on the face either. Did the ME scrape under Trayvon's fingernails to determine if he had scratched Zimmerman? Who knows where those superficial cuts came from? More importantly, some one from LE should have scraped under Zimmerman's nails. All we have is the words of a frustrated, possibly drunk or drugged nobody who EXECUTED an innocent young man. I hope he NEVER has another minute of peace.

ConstitutionalThumper,

Sounds like you guys harbor some ill will towards people who happen to be white.

I'm WHITE! AND I LIVE IN FLORIDA!

Can you please explain to me what concern it is of anyone that you are white? THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYONE THAT IS WHITE! Zimmerman is Hispanic.

The only concern should be that of a human being just got murdered by this dousche

Zimmerman's father said, his son was NOT a racist, "because" he was hispanic and raised in a multi cultural family. This gave these posters ANOTHER reason to pick a fight with each other! He's white....NO...He's hispanic, he can't be white! And, on and on we go...

The fact that Zimmerman would probably have been arrested IF Trayvon was a "white boy" and Zimmerman, black.

@Mike K-2074337 - you are a pedantic @$$. I actually never used the word "pissed" or anything like it in any previous comments, even if I did it does not in any way indicate my level of education.

I also know how to look up viable, accurate information online and even (gasp) at the library. These are real laws. Yes, your point of someone threatening you with a weapon to mug you or steal from you is true. You may defend yourself with any force necessary to prevent yourself from being injured or killed. BUT, you cannot chase someone down that stole your property and kill them. Only in the act of someone threatening you for your property may you react in self-defense. The only other scenario is if you surprise an intruder in your own home in the act of theft which would be a threatening situation because the thief may react to you in a threatening or harmful way. Once again, if the intruder flees from your property you may not pursue and kill them once they've left your property, even if they are carrying your possesions with them. .

It is irresponsible to suggest to people that they can kill people for stealing from them. Once again, self-defense is ONLY appropriate when you or your loved ones are being directly threatened with physical violence. Often times, criminals will threaten violence during theft which is an appropriate reason for self-defense (imminent danger). But once the confrontation has taken place, you may not react by using violent force after the fact. You may feel violated by the theft but it does not legally give you the right to retaliate.

Do you believe that Zimmerman knew in advance the teen was unarmed? Of course you do, you'd use any rationale to convince yourself that your judgement of guilt is the correct one....

@ Ray in Jax

Hypothetically speaking, even if Zimmerman KNEW that Trayvon was armed, why would he go out and approach him, especially if Trayvon did not confront him at all? Why not stay in the safety of your vehicle and keep tabs untilt he police arrived?

At the end of the day, the confrontation was completely unwarranted and unjustified.

If he thought the teen was armed he could have not stalked him, followed him, cornered him and instead made the choice to wait for the police who were on their way and told him to NOT follow the kid.

Not a Rambo yet called 911 some 60 odd times for emergencies such as kids playing in the street. Was the deceased youth hostile? Damm right he was. this stranger was following him and confronted him in an area that he had every legal right to be in.

some of these commentators should really attend a competent Use of Force class if they are of ever intend to carry a handgun. There was zero justification for Zimmerman confronting this kid. If his attorny intends on using the fact he had a hooded sweatshirt on, then he had better retake the bar. Right now he';s grasping at straws.

Good point R. Scalzo. If you are carrying a gun, you should be required to pass a class on escalation of force like police officers have to pass. I attended one and it's very enlightening. Contrary to popular opinion, if someone pulls a can of mace on you, you can't blow them away with your 9mm.

Further, if someone is not threatening you directly you can't follow them, instigate a confrontation and then claim you were defending yourself. A police officer can order a person to stop or explain themselves...... a private citizen (even a self-appointed sheriff) cannot.

@ Ray~ I do not believe that Zimmerman knew whether or not Martin was armed. He couldn't have possibly know this unless Martin confronted him with his weapon. What I do know is Zimmerman followed this boy and the 911 dispatcher advised him to stop. He did not listen and now a boy is dead. It doesn't matter if Martin was armed or not. Zimmerman had no reason to be following or confronting him. If Zimmerman had listened to the 911 dispatcher there would've been no need for him to be concerned with Martin being armed or not.

I cannot judge whether or not Zimmerman is guilty. That is for judge and jury. What I can judge is the fact that he shot an innocent young man on the street and is still walking free. Let justice do her duty. Arrest Zimmerman and give him his day in court!

Ray doesn't want to consider that side of things.

I agree with you that Zimmerman should have been arrested and given his day in court. I don't know that all the forensic evidence was collected, BUT, if it wasn't, then the police department should have to answer why not....in a separate "court case," possibly civil with damages.

JerseyGirl~ I too worry that the evidence is no longer present. They have the 911 calls, but at this point it is all speculation. Only two people knew what happened and unfortunatly one of those people can no longer speak for himself. This is the part that angers me the most about this case. Zimmerman shot a young man and that was the end of it. No investigation, no arrest, nothing. I think it was a poor decision on the police and prosecutors to let it go so far that the Feds have to be involved.

Totally agree!

I agree. Zimmermann's father said he is going to have some bad years to come, well at least he will have years of his life left not like the kid that he killed in cold blood. How would that neighbor feel if it has been his child. Zimmermann is a hot head and the neighborhood residents should hang their heads in shame for having him in a neighborhood watch. The police should be ashamed to call themselves law enforcement. They did not check Zimmermann for drugs or alcohol. They did not nofify the father of the victim for three days. They are as unprofessional as you can get.

This man has blinders on. He murdered someone you idiot! Trayvon Martin shouldn't have had to explain himself if he thought he was getting attacked. He was probably defending himself.

Well, he did say it, and in his defense, it was in response to a question from the 911 operator, but here is the entire transcript:

Below are the transcripts of the calls as Zimmerman and witnesses describe what they saw and heard that night:

7:09 p.m. ET

Dispatcher: "Do you need police, fire or medical?"

Zimmerman: "We had some break-ins in our neighborhood ... and there is a real suspicious guy. ... This guy looks like he's up to no good, he's on drugs or something. It's raining, and he's walking around looking about. "

Dispatcher: "Is this guy white, black, Hispanic?"

Zimmerman: "He looks black."

Dispatcher: "Did you see what he's wearing?"

Zimmerman: "A dark hoodie, grey hoodie, jeans or sweatpants or white shoes. He's walking around staring at the houses. Now he's just staring at me."

Dispatcher: "Location?"

Zimmerman: "He's near the clubhouse right now. Now he's coming towards me. He has his hands in his waistband. He is a black male. Something's wrong with him. Yep. He's coming to check me out. He's got something in his hands. I don't know what his deal is. Send officers over here."

Dispatcher: "Let me know if he does anything else."

Zimmerman: "These a**holes, they always get away. When you come in go straight to the left ... when you pass the clubhouse ..."

Dispatcher: "Clubhouse?"

Zimmerman: "Go straight in. Oh, s***. He's running ... down towards the other entrance of neighborhood."

Dispatcher: "He's running? Which way is he running?"

Zimmerman: "Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood."

Dispatcher: "Which entrance is that, that he is running towards?

Zimmerman: "The back entrance."

[inaudible]

Dispatcher: "Are you following him?"

Zimmerman: "Yeah."

Dispatcher: "OK. We don't need you to do that. What's your name?"

Zimmerman: "George. Zimmerman."

Dispatcher: "Do you want to meet with the officer ..."

Zimmerman: "Tell them to come past the clubhouse and make a left then past mailboxes and they will see my truck ..."

Dispatcher: "What's your apartment number?"

Zimmerman: "It's a home. ... I don't want to give that out. I don't know who this kid is."

Dispatcher: "I will let them know where to meet you."

Zimmerman: "Have them call me, and I will let you know where I'm at."

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/20/911-calls-paint-picture-of-chaos-after-florida-teen-is-shot/?iref=allsearch

Luke,

Zimmerman is half white half hispanic. He looks white. He even acted like a white racist. Therefore that is what he is. If he looked Hispanic then he acted like a Hispanic racist. etc. etc. etc. I realize this may be new to you but racists come in all colors. Even black. Can't believe you're from my beloved California with that stupid comment.

You must've not have listened to the full 30-minute compilation of the 911 tapes. Zimmerman did say he looks black, looks "suspicious," said he looks like he's on "drugs." Common racial profiling from a racist in my perspective.

Zimmerman IS white. White Hispanic, to be more specific. Being racist isn't limited to one skin color anyways. Whites, Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, etc. ANYONE can be a racist.

Zimmerman is racially white and ethnically Hispanic. The concepts of race and ethnicity are mutually independent, and respondents to the census and other Census Bureau surveys are asked to answer both questions. Before you make judgments about race, how about you learn the definitions?

You are either flat out lying or attempting to justify your defense of Zimmerman's actions. The entire 911 tapes are available via internet search, and another poster just put the transcript of the most damning tape up for you to read in its entirety.

People saying this is a RUSH TO JUDGEMENT. Seems to me the only one's who have rushed to judgement so far are Mr. Zimmerman and the Sanford police department.

This incident took place on FEBRUARY 26, 2012, over 3 weeks ago. (sarcasm on) What, should we wait another 30 days so that it doesn't appear to be such a RUSH TO JUDGEMENT? (sarcasm off)

Well since you want to get technical, white is NOT a race. It's a color. Actually, it's not even a color. Maybe it's you who needs to learn the definitions.

Some of you can't read.... He only said "he looks black" because he was ASKED by the dispatcher if the male was white, black or Hispanic. It's the dispatcher's job to get as complete a description as possible, and it has nothing to do with being racist.

Shellie - did you fill out the 2010 census? The options for race were: WHITE, Black, American Indian/Alaska Native, etc. Looks like someone else needs to learn the definition of race.

AmyRose92

You must've not have listened to the full 30-minute compilation of the 911 tapes. Zimmerman did say he looks black, looks "suspicious," said he looks like he's on "drugs." Common racial profiling from a racist in my perspective.

Obviously you didn't listen well, he only stated "he looks black" in response to a direct question by the dispatcher, which was "Is he white, black or Hispanic?"

Your perspective is skewed....

"At the 2:21 mark, Zimmerman clearly says the words “f_— coons” under his breath. The dispatcher immediately asks Zimmerman if he’s following Trayvon. “Yeah,” Zimmerman replies. “OK, we don’t need you to do that,” says the 911 operator."

Have a listen. The guy is racist.

Luke-SoCal

I listened to the 911 tapes of the the shooter and he did not say “This guy looks like he’s up to no good … he looks black,” like it reads in the article. He said that he looked like he was up to no good, and then only after the 911 dispatcher asks about his race does he say "he looks black." Was that racist?

Now I don't know whether it was justified or not, and the fact that the person shot was black doesn't in any way make it less serious. That would be racist by definition. But the way the author para-phrased that part of what Zimmerman told the 911 dispatcher is both wrong and inflammatory.

To para-phrase the 911 conversation like that would be expected by a prosecutor, not the writer of a news article. He was asked what race the guy was, he did not say those words that are a para-phrase all in one sentence. That makes a world of difference.

If Zimmerman didn't shoot him out of self-defense, he should pay dearly for it, but not knowing all the facts and para-phrasing what he said to make it sound racist or anything it wasn't is simply wrong. The truth will come out in the facts, not assumptions. I feel for the family either way, has to be a terrible feeling.

The options for race were: WHITE, Black, American Indian/Alaska Native, etc. Looks like someone else needs to learn the definition of race.

Technically, "white" is supposed to be "Caucasian," but most people wouldn't recognize a word with that many syllables.

No, Zimmerman's not Rambo. He's just a jerk with a gun and a cop complex who made a really, really big mistake which resulted in a boy's death, and he should have to accept the consequences of that action.

""At the 2:21 mark, Zimmerman clearly says the words “f_— coons” under his breath"

Right I listened to that, a lot. I',m still hearing "f***ing PUNKS" myself; but not surprisingly you hear something different. Something very focused on race; as you seem to be. I guess when your whole life is a race-focused race-based race-intensive life you hear a lot of "racist" things... even when people don't actually say them.

Let me guess, if he didn't say anything racist, I don't hear anything racist; but YOU DO HEAR SOMETHING RACIST THAT ISN'T THERE

...

That means that Zimmermann and I are somehow racist for what YOU hear, right?

Well, he did say it, and in his defense, it was in response to a question from the 911 operator, but here is the entire transcript:

Below are the transcripts of the calls as Zimmerman and witnesses describe what they saw and heard that night:

7:09 p.m. ET

Dispatcher: "Do you need police, fire or medical?"

Zimmerman: "We had some break-ins in our neighborhood ... and there is a real suspicious guy. ... This guy looks like he's up to no good, he's on drugs or something. It's raining, and he's walking around looking about. "

Dispatcher: "Is this guy white, black, Hispanic?"

Zimmerman: "He looks black."

Dispatcher: "Did you see what he's wearing?"

Zimmerman: "A dark hoodie, grey hoodie, jeans or sweatpants or white shoes. He's walking around staring at the houses. Now he's just staring at me."

Dispatcher: "Location?"

Zimmerman: "He's near the clubhouse right now. Now he's coming towards me. He has his hands in his waistband. He is a black male. Something's wrong with him. Yep. He's coming to check me out. He's got something in his hands. I don't know what his deal is. Send officers over here."

Dispatcher: "Let me know if he does anything else."

Zimmerman: "These a**holes, they always get away. When you come in go straight to the left ... when you pass the clubhouse ..."

Dispatcher: "Clubhouse?"

Zimmerman: "Go straight in. Oh, s***. He's running ... down towards the other entrance of neighborhood."

Dispatcher: "He's running? Which way is he running?"

Zimmerman: "Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood."

Dispatcher: "Which entrance is that, that he is running towards?

Zimmerman: "The back entrance."

[inaudible]

Dispatcher: "Are you following him?"

Zimmerman: "Yeah."

Dispatcher: "OK. We don't need you to do that. What's your name?"

Zimmerman: "George. Zimmerman."

Dispatcher: "Do you want to meet with the officer ..."

Zimmerman: "Tell them to come past the clubhouse and make a left then past mailboxes and they will see my truck ..."

Dispatcher: "What's your apartment number?"

Zimmerman: "It's a home. ... I don't want to give that out. I don't know who this kid is."

Dispatcher: "I will let them know where to meet you."

Zimmerman: "Have them call me, and I will let you know where I'm at."

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/20/911-calls-paint-picture-of-chaos-after-florida-teen-is-shot/?iref=allsearch

Sorry, Tom,

that post was meant for Luke-SoCal,

whoops....

In the transcript it clearly mentions that he thinks that this is a KID! Why would you pursue a kid. Why would you follow a kid...I think the cause for the outrage is a mix out Zimmerman's poor judgement and the complete lack of investigation by the PD. The bottom line is Zimmerman choose to take the law into his own hands. Under no circumstances does he have the right to confront or accost the teen.

"Why would you pursue a kid. Why would you follow a kid"

There had been a number of break-ins and robberies in the area. Now suspecting Trayvon was rude; just because the kid fits a profile; and had been caught with dozens of pieces of stolen jewelry on his person in the past doesn't mean he's a thief.

See he was just holding the stolen jewelry "FOR A FRIEND" amazing how that works, right? Let me tell you the police have never heard as airtight and defensible an argument for holding illegal merchandise as "it's not mine, I'm just holding it for a friend"... totally unique and very persuasive defense there...

So the suspicion that the kid who had been caught with drugs might be on drugs; and the kid who had been caught with stolen merchandise might be a thief is intolerable in your book?

When you're looking for a thief and you see someone who looks suspicious... you don't follow them and let them go?

Nice, can i get your address? I've been looking for a mark to rob from, and you're clearly not smart enough to catch anyone robbing from you.

Oh, you didn't know any of this information? It's in the police reports; so it's been available for days... of course MSNBC hasn't reported it; but they tend to avoid facts, information, or the truth if it gets in the way of the liberal story as it "should be".

It's sad someone would judge and convict based in a few news stories.

No, what's sad is you have already made up your own mind of guilt and you can't believe that others have reasonable doubt....

@ AG99-

The only one who has played "judge and convict" is Mr. Zimmerman. Why are you defending his actions or better yet, what part about incident does not desrve the outrage which has risen since the FACTS have come to light?

This incident happened on February 26th, over three weeks ago and Mr. Zimmerman has yet to be arrested or charged with anything.

How can you say he has been Judged and Convicted when he has not even been arrested? And before you come back with some half backed response, I understand that your inference was in reference to the Court of Public Opinion. But, given what FACTS have been released how can you defend Zimmerman's actions?

What's sad is there are some people who are so dense they don't bother to get the facts (which by the way have been all over the news for anyone who cares to have them) and are defending a nut case on the internet who shot and killed a kid doing nothing wrong. Or, they are of the same mind set as Zimmerman. Gee, wonder which is the case with you AG?

Wow!!! Just reading some of these comments does something to your "ability to not judge people" on the basis of their skin or background. As a black male, I'll be the first to say that I'm sick and tired of the hypocrisy that so many people of non-black heritage have against black people in general. All of the excuses on why these people have such hatred towards people of color has truly worn thin. Point blank, there are no excuses for the level of hate protrayed toward blacks in general. As a black man, I for one, do not care if you dislike me because of the color of my skin or my background. Why? Because personally, there aren't too many whites or hispanics that I like either. My dislikes for most whites and hispanics is based off of their continued hatred, dislikes, and actions towards black people. In other words, black people have a reason to hate and be racist. Sure, it's not right to do so. But, when you're subjected to a continuous system of, "I hate blacks this and I hate blacks that," then you become insensitive to the accusers complaints; especially when you know, that for the most part, most black people do not commit crimes or are on welfare or part of any of the other stereotypes that racist people keep trying to fling around about people of color. It's just funny to me how racist whites and hispanics always want to point the finger at blacks as being the problem when in fact, I don't see black people killing white people or hispanic people in the streets just because the person looked suspicious or fit the profile. There are unsavory people within each group of people. That especially includes whites! With that being said, I personally think that black people as a whole should just start arming themeselves for protection against stupid, racist people such as Zimmerman. This guy showed no class just like the rest of the people who are on this blog supporting him and stating that this kid, who was killed, deserved it. And, just to get the record straight, dumb people coming on this blog stating that this kid fit the profile and this was something that was just boiling within the community and just came to a head; the kid was wearing a jacket with a hood on it because it was raining! He wasn't wearing the hood to look menacing or be tough or whatever! It was raining! So, to keep his head dry he put the hood over it. Also, from what his girlfriend, who was on the line with him indicated, stated that he saw some weird guy staring at him and got the impression that the guy was up to no good. So, he decided to conceil his face because he felt like this guy was some sort of nutjob! The other thing also, Zimmerman stated that the kid walked towards him and seemed to have something in his possession. All of a sudden, he's running after the kid?! What the h@ll! How does it go from, "he's approaching me with something in his hand to I'm following him?" I don't get that. It sounds to me that Zimmerman was making up this crap as he was speaking with th 911 operator to try and justify his call to them and provoke some sort of confrontation. Also, I think that this fool already had in his mind that he was going to go after any person that he confronted that he felt did not belong in the community in the first place. Why else would you have a gun in your possession when you're not allowed to have one while on duty as a neighborhood watchperson in the first place? I wasn't there. However, everything that's being said, the 911 call, his own admission, the girlfried on the other end of the line, the screaming of this poor kid in the background, just tells me that this guy has a lot coming to him. As it should. I pray for the family and anyone else that refuses to see this for what it tryly is. Racial profiling at its finest.

Also sad is that the investigation has already been botched. Evidence which should have been collected at the time, was not. There was however, for whatever reason, a very strange interpretation of the "stand your ground" law.

SayitaintSo: "Why are you defending his actions"

Who said I was? I'm simply willing to let justice take its course and not call for the man's immediate execution.

And Shellie, I can't be bothered to respond to you anymore. Your judgmentalism disgusts me. Anyone who doesn't agree with you, you treat with disrespect.

Right, he's a low life. Caught with drugs, suspended for school for 10 days for assaulting a bus driver; caught with stolen jewelry on his person, and assault someone smashing his head into the sidewalk.. clearly Trayvon is a 'low life".

Oh, you meant Zimmermann? Yeah, he's got a record, mild abuse, disorderly conduct, pushed a woman once... but I'm not sure your arguemtn of "low life" applies more to Zimmermann than Trayvon.

Maybe we could wait for the investigation to be complete? Lots of evidence still coming out... well not her because MSNBC wont' tell you a lot of it, but the police reports and unbiased news sites have a lot more stuff.

But no worries, you sit in the echo chamber and never learn anything new... that's how you know you're really smart... you avoid new information, facts, or evidence.

You make a lot of assertions but offer up no solutions. Quit pissing and moaning.

To Stand and Deliver:

Truly, an emotional case to be sure. However, you seem to have jumped to another topic. From the tone of your comment, I certainly hope you do not endorse the answer to your rhetorical question to be, "Have the Federal Government pass laws to prevent anyone from owning a gun" or some such nonsense. The answer, in my opinion, is to bring the offender (should evidence warrant it) to trial and hold him/her accountable. You appear to have contempt for those of us that do own and carry weapons. In fact, you seem to have divine powers worthy of Biblical status - knowing the levels of training (or lack of training) of millions of people! You may be very surprised how many of us there are, if you live in a right-to-carry State, surrounding you every single day! Perhaps you should consider why there are so few incidents like this? Please refrain from passing judgment on those who have the right to protect themselves and their families by choosing to obtain a CW, eh? After all, nobody is forcing YOU to carry, or even own, a firearm. Again, CW carriers are not, necessarily, vigilantes!

The reason Zimmerman didn't recognize the teen as a neighbor is because he didn't live there. Sounds like you have already convicted the shooter in your mind's jury. You claim to have been involved in a neighborhood watch program, yet you question why one was established instead of more police presence.

Make up your mind...

It's been reported that Zimmermand was arrested and convicted before for assualt. That begs the question, why did he have a license and a gun in the first place?

No Ray in Jax,

I'd like to know what your "reasonable doubt" is regarding this matter?

Do not the facts as presented to date confirm the following?

Mr. Zimmerman called 911, reported a suspicious individual? Yes.

Mr. Zimmerman was instructed, advised, told (choose your own description) by the 911 dispatcher NO TO FOLLOW THE SUSPECT? Yes.

Mr. Zimmerman was carrying a loaded gun as part of his Neighborhood Watch gear, in violation of established Neighborhood Watch Protocols? Yes.

Mr. Zimmerman approached and confronted Trayvon Martin, who ultimately was shot and killed by Mr. Zimmerman? Yes.

The Sanford Police did not arrest Mr. Zimmerman, detain Mr. Zimmerman, test Mr. Zimmerman for drug or alcohol use immediately after the shooting? Yes they did not do any of these.

Mr. Zimmerman is still free, still allowed to carry a gun? Yes.

Now, please tell me where the reasonable doubt exists especially since the ONLY OTHER EYE WITNESS IN THE INCIDENT IS TRAYVON MARTIN AND HE IS DEAD!

I don't have to make up my mind. Our local police failed our community as well, necessitating the Watch program. But we were not strapped vigilantes. We worked with the police. We watched and alerted. We didn't kill people. And, yes, I've convicted him in my mind. I've heard the tapes, and testimony from Trayvon's female friend. I've heard enough to forgo the formalities of a trial and convict that murdering Zimmerman.

I suppose you are implicating the entire police department in a cover up? I'm not defending the man's actions, I'm simply tired of all the 'experts' that have determined the man is guilty of murder, having only information reported in the news.

You forgot to mention the fact that Zimmerman reported that he thought the male had something in his waistband and the male was approaching him. Where is your proof that Zimmerman walked up and confronted the young man? Why call 911 if his intention was to shoot? How far away was the incident from Zimmerman's truck? there are a lot of unanswered questions, so keep your assumption of guilt in check until you know all of the facts.

The story is a tragedy for all involved.

@Ray in Jax all you have to do is listen to the numerous telephone calls to draw the reasonable conclusion that Zimmerman was the pursuer and ultimately cornered and confronted Trayvon and, as the boy yelled for help, shot him dead in cold blood. I've read many of these posts and I have not seen one individual claim they are an expert in the field of criminal justice and forensics so why are you attempting to make your problem with other peoples' thinking our problem by claiming "I'm simply tired of all the 'experts' that have determined the man is guilty of murder, having only information reported in the news."?

The information in the news is conclusive enough to determine that the racist pig did not act in self-defense and should have been arrested, at the very least, and charged with manslaughter.

Maybe you should quit playing devil's advocate on this one RayJax and just sit down and STFU. :)

and it is my understanding that, although he may not have lived specifically in that neighborhood, Trayvon and his family do live in that community so Trayvon had every RIGHT to be where he was as he walked home from the convenience store talking to his 13 year-old friend on the phone.

No, that's BS, Ray. I grew up in NYC, where the NYPD frequently used the "I thought he had a weapon" excuse before unloading their rounds into the chests of young black men. I am intimately tied to these incidents because my father was an investigator. Our home was FILLED with morgue photos of so many young black men wrongly executed by white police officers. Horrible photos with their chests stitched back together after their autopsies. So many cases of police lying about a supposed weapon ("He pointed the gun at me". Then why did your bullets enter his back?), or planting one on the scene.

Why do you continuously ignore the fact that he was told to stop following the kid? Why do you ignore the fact that Zimmerman exited his car and approached the kid, against the command of the 911 operator? You want to present this image of calmness, where we should let the process play out, but to black people, this is nothing more than a real life nightmare version of the movie Groundhog Day. We've seen this story over and over again. It plays out the same way everytime. I have a teenage son. My only son. And I don't want him murdered because some a$$hole harbors racial stereotypes in his ignorant head. We are tired of being stopped, frisked, shot at and killed when we have commited no crime. Unless being the wrong skintone is a crime in the States.

I think you'd sing a different tune if under the same set of circumstances, it was your son, brother, father, nephew, etc, that was killed by Zimmerman. But hey, I suppose it's lots on fun to be the Internet Antagonist, always on the contrary to popular opinion, huh? Go ahead and enjoy yourself, but for many of us, this isn't fun... it's real life.

Unfortunately, burglaries in the past neither have any relation this incident (no burglary committed) nor give any impunity to the crime. The fact that there were two eye witnesses within a few feet of the crime scene and the inept local police didn't even bother to get their input is an indication that they wanted to pull the case under wraps and dust off their hands. Kudos to their ethical behavior!

Good point CommonGood, there are reports by the one witness that she was 'instructed' by the responding police officer to say that Martin was the aggressor, not Zimmerman.

"The fact that there were two eye witnesses within a few feet of the crime scene and the inept local police didn't even bother to get their input is an indication that they wanted to pull the case under wraps and dust off their hands."

Really? So the police report, taken at the scene by the police, with one witness who didn't see the confrontation start, but DID SEE Trayvon smashing Zimmermann's head into the sidewalk... that doesn't exist in your world?

Hey, if you're going to ignore facts and reality and things that actually exist; why not pretend Trayvon was never shot.

If you'd care to deal in reality; you're going to have to look for all the evidence; not just the "it must be racist, the black kid was a saint" liberal pablum that MSNBC is filtering to you.

Trayvon has a past of drug use and possession of stolen goods, and was suspended for assaulting a bus driver. Zimmermann has a past including assault charges, but clearly was injured from having been assaulted.

Depending on what happened, who started the fight, and how it progressed; this MIGHT have been self-defense, and MIGHT have been murder... or any of a wide number of things in the spectrum in the middle.

But if you're going to pretend Trayvon is a Saint and Zimmermann is the only one who ever could or has done wrong... then I guess this is easier for you. Why not pretend Zimmermann was arrested and put to death for the crime (since you're ignoring reality and facts anyhow)?

What I have read is how so many people are blaming the "White people" or "White neighborhoods" or "White" anything! This is a situation that involves a hispanic man who made bad decisions and killed a black MAN! At 17 years old he is a man... ask anybody in the black community and they will tell you. There is a TON of missing information and not enough facts.

A black MAN huh? But little white Natalie Hollaway was just a little girl. Pulled your mask right off there luke.

What are you talking about, Shellie? At 17 years old, a male of any race is essentially a MAN. For Jews, they become a man at what, like age 13 or so? How is it racist to call a 17 year old male a man?

You only make yourself appear hateful to say such things in response to a post which is not racist in any overt way.

Hey Lukesocal, Trayvon weighed approximately 150lbs, pig Zimmerman weighs about 260, so who's the man and who would have the most claim to be fearing for their life. I know if I was walking home from the store, minding my own business and a pig like Zimmerman confronted me like all accounts indicate he confronted Trayvon and in light of the 'Stand Your Ground' law, I would have pulled my concealed weapon and blasted Zimmerman right in the face without saying a word or giving him a chance to shoot me first. This law and the mentality I see a lot of you people displaying on here can only lead to a Wild West condition on the streets of Florida.

So, now we're stereotyping the overweight as a "pig". How's that hypocritical thing working out for you?

Not justifying anything but lets keep facts as facts, he was not a 15 year old, he was a 17 year old, 17 year olds are just shy of being adults by most peoples standards, and I have served in the US Military with many 17 year olds, he was a child to his parents for sure, but to many others he was an adult.

How many 17 year olds commit murder and other violent crimes every year? Many 29 year olds cannot hold down a 15 year old.

Upstate, that has to be the most ridiculous statement I have heard. Trayvon was 17 years old, in High School and living with his parents. Does it hurt less that he was 17 and close to manhood and not 15. You must some kind of idiot. When you say that many 17 year olds commit murder, remember that in our society today, so do 8, 9, 10 and up commit crimes including murder. The child is heard on the 911 call yelling for help. The voice sounds nothing like Zimmerman's voice. It is clear from witnesses that Zimmerman followed the boy. I don't care how old he was, the bottom line is that he was armed only with skittles and a can of iced tea. What makes him suspicious??? Oh, that would be the color of his skin. I have no problem going out on a limb that Zimmerman is a racist and I don't care if he was part hispanic or not. That does not preclude him from being racist.

That idiot and LeatherNeck and others that are defending Zimmerman are out and out racists and they know it. You mean to say it's okay for someone to follow you and demand to know why your here and then when you say that it's none of your business it's a free sidewalk and you decide to walk on or say F you then it's alright for said neighborhood person with gun to physically detain him for what? Calling him a bad name, saying none of your business. You see Zimmerman had to have put his hands on the kid to initiate what happened.

And that man of the same neighborhood watch is saying that it was just a mass of confusion because black males have been breaking into homes is hogwash. So what he is doing is saying because black males have broken in (that was what he said) then all black males are suspect. And since they are all suspect then you can see how easy it is for someone to MAKE A MISTAKE in his vigilanteism. So just take your 17 year old son's body to be buried and just chock it up as an unfortunate mistake. Because Zimmerman would never kill out of hate.

If this was a black man that shot a 17 year old kid that had skittles and a tea, they would have arrested him on the spot. The neighborhood would have been screaming for justice. You see it's okay to kill the progeny of black people because they aren't people you see. All these idiots like leatherneck and this neighbor and others are truly destroying our society. Because when a people see that they can't even count on justice for their child or even their child being protected then we have turned into a society that is unsafe and a danger to them. These people aren't doing us whites a favor, all they are doing is making a problem much worse and our country less stable.

Just ask yourself would you accept these stupid responses if it was your 17 year old child that it happened too, if you do your lying or a complete fool.

Buck Johnson -

From what I read, Leatherneck is NOT defending "Zim". He is merely pointing out that ultimate guilt depends on who assaulted who first. He also is pointing out that many emotional reactions to this case are not based in facts, but rather presumptions that have been assumed! I believe he aknowledged that "Zim" had no right to touch Travyon and that if he did, then he would certainly be guilty under the law. That is not defending Zimmerman!

I do have four sons and I did imagine this scenario playing out, by the way. I also do not think it is appropriate for anyone to come up to you (regardless of race or dress code - unless, that is, you happen to be butt naked in front of my kids....and even then....), follow you and then ask personal questions - especially a civilian or even a law enforcement officer who does not immediately identify himself as such! Travyon certainly had no obligation to answer Zimmerman! But, regardless of how irresponsible, angry, unthinking, inconsiderate, prejudiced, etc. Zimmerman was prior to the battery, you have to ask yourself, did either party break any laws BASED ON WHAT WE HAVE READ SO FAR! The kid ran because he was scared - no doubt. He was young and inexperienced handeling these sort of situations. You can't fault the kid at all. At some point, it was Travyon who stopped running and......well, there is the problem! None of us know what happened then! I know, it's hard to swallow....and this may be one of those cases where a fellow, who may or may not be a murderer, gets no trial or conviction. They do happen!

As for any conclusions based on race, it is not productive and only underscores deep held issues on the part of the respondent - It doesn't make you any more right about assigning guilt in the end.

As for me, my original opinion was dismay at how Zimmerman was not being held for manslaughter. However, after leaving emotions aside, and considering some of the points, I admitted to myself that I should research a couple legal definitions very carefully before I make the same conclusion.

BTW - That's not being a fool or lying! It is attempting to understand why, under very unusual circumstances, the police acted in this manner. It may be for resons put forth by Leatherneck. I know it will not bring the boy back, but, undoubtedly Mr. Zimmerman will be held to account in a civil court where burdden of proof is very different than in criminal court.

You are forgetting they live in a gated community of which Trayvon Martin was not part of. When you live in a gated community and you see someone who clearly isn't part of your community...it stands out. Particularly when you have multiple burglaries committed by black youth.

Martin is not only a victim of Zimmerman's anger and poor judgement but he is also a victim of the criminals who chose to repeatedly rob the community to put them on edge and raise tensions.

BS William. So what you are saying is if you live in gated community you better not have anyone over to your house or you better have them escorted in and if you have kids, you certainly better not ever let them have friends over so they don't get shot by your nut case neighbors? Really?

Uh shellie, you put a lot of words into other people's mouths... He didn't say that at all. He is simply looking at all sides of this story, something you might want to try before declaring a man a murderer....

At the 2:21 mark, Zimmerman clearly says the words “f__— coons” under his breath. The dispatcher immediately asks Zimmerman if he’s following Trayvon. “Yeah,” Zimmerman replies. “OK, we don’t need you to do that,” says the 911 operator.

This action had NOTHING to do with stand your ground, and everything to do with a vigilante nutcase. Zimmerman should be charged with murder - probably first degree, given the fact that he chased the kid down. The feds should charge him with denial of civil rights, AFTER the state sends him away.

But RayJax, he is a murderer, and when the dust settles on the matter and he is in prison then maybe you can quit trying to justify his murdering of an innocent teen who was only trying to get home from the store, or are you not listening to ALL the telephonic evidence that clearly shows Zimmerman was the pursuer and the aggressor in the entire matter, God, how obtuse can you be?

It is the other way around. George Zimmerman was part of the neighborhood and Trayvon Martin was not.

There were burglaries attributed to young black males in that area over the past year. It is a gated community and Trayvon stood out.

The way you are approaching this incident is your typical knee-jerk reaction and your argument is backwards.

If Martin explained himself instead of took an attitude, perhaps he'd be alive to say what kind of an A-hole Zimmerman was vs. being stuffed into a casket and the media along with general idiots on the Internet crying about how much Zimmerman is an a-hole.

It is the other way around. George Zimmerman was part of the neighborhood and Trayvon Martin was not.

There were burglaries attributed to young black males in that area over the past year. It is a gated community and Trayvon stood out.

The way you are approaching this incident is your typical knee-jerk reaction and your argument is backwards.

If Martin explained himself instead of took an attitude, perhaps he'd be alive to say what kind of an A-hole Zimmerman was vs. being stuffed into a casket and the media along with general idiots on the Internet crying about how much Zimmerman is an a-hole.

Are you kidding me? Ask Trayvon's girlfriend what she heard. She said Trayvon was cornered by Zimmerman. Trayvon asked him why he was following him, and Zimmerman asked him "What are you doing here?" and proceeded to PUSH Trayvon to the ground, thus initiating the deadly confrontation. Nowhere is there proof that Trayvon "took an attitude." This kid was stalked, confronted, beaten up, and executed on the basis of racial profiling. It doesn't get more damning than that.

Amy, you can't even think straight. You tell me "ask what Trayvon's girlfriend what she heard" and then you claim Zimmerman pushed Trayvon to the ground. How can you "hear" that on a telephone? Here is a clue: YOU CAN'T.

There was a scuffle and that can be heard but you can't hear who pushed down who.

He was most certainly profiled because there were young black men committing robberies in the neighborhood and he was a young black male. That's about the only fact you mentioned.

There is evidence that Trayvon took an attitude. Even if he did, it shouldn't have resulted in his death but one can see how someone who already has built up anger not acting very well to someone copping an attitude.

Do you know how men interact with each other in a hostile situation? Probably not. Use a little critical thinking rather than simply making an argument based on emotion.

Do you know how men interact with each other in a hostile situation you ask? Well yes William, we do. they act like immature little boys and since the most immature little boy here had a gun he acted like he was Billy bad ass and shot and killed a REAL kid. You don't need to tell us of the irrational, illogical petulant way "men" react William, it's pretty well know already.

William J: "Do you know how men interact with each other in a hostile situation? Probably not. Use a little critical thinking rather than simply making an argument based on emotion."

Are you saying that men interact EMOTIONALLY and naturally kill each other in such situations? How about using your "critical thinking" instead?

“This guy looks like he’s up to no good … he looks black,” Zimmerman told a police dispatcher.

Yup, those sure are no words a Racist turned Murderer would say...Oh wait a sec, THEY ARE!

William Jenkins, this isn't the first time Zimmerman has harrassed people in this area. He's had the cops called on him by another resident because he was essentially doing the same thing. We have a pattern of this guy Zimmerman going around acting like a tough guy, and I get the feeling he tried to bully the wrong kid. When the kid whooped his ass, he shot him.

You don't get to chase people down, harrass them, confront them, corner them and then shoot them in self defense.