Partly right. There is an obligation not to follow "unlawful orders." That was the basis of the Nuremburg Trials and also the My Lai trials.

However, the decision to not follow an order is a PERSONAL decision with all the risks attached to it. The Marine does not have a right to attempt to organize resistance to orders (under the UCMJ).

It is against the rules of the Uniform Code of Military Justice for a soldier to publicly criticize Commander in Chief. A court martial is in order here.

Once you sign up, you have to follow the rules.

Wrong. The UCMJ specifically states that a servicemember DOES NOT have to follow an unlawful order, in fact WILL not follow an unlawful order. And you are wrong, no where in the UCMJ does it say a soldier can not criticize the Commander in Chief. Fortunately, the Commanding Officer found that Administrative Action, not court martial, was appropriate....since you haven't a clue about what you speak. The statement the marine made is Correct. Someone is taking the statement to "imply" that this marine would not follow the orders of the Commander in Chief. Case in point, General Crystal. He was relieved of his command....an Administrative Action.

TO: SGM-810252 who wrote:

"Wrong. The UCMJ specifically states that a servicemember DOES NOT have to follow an unlawful order..."

So, what "order" are you calling "unlawful"?

ART. 88. CONTEMPT TOWARD OFFICIALS

Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

Max^108

Correct. A commissioned officer. A Sgt is a NON-COMMISSIONED officer... Article 88 does not apply to NCOs.

SGM - Don't get off topic. He didn't refuse to follow an order (lawful or otherwise.) He affiliated himself with a political movement and criticized the CinC while identifying himself as an active-duty service member. THAT is expressly forbidden under the UCMJ. You didn't serve, can't read well, or have selective memory loss.

At enlistment all military members take an oath to defend the Constitution against ALL enemies, both Foreign and Domestic. There are several references herein to the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ). As with all laws this code must conform to the rights guaranteed all citizens under the Constitution including the right to freedom of speech. There are those in our society today that want to stop free speech, take away our means to defend ourselves and subject all of us to their will and their view of right and wrong. I take this oath as seriously today as I did when I took it in 1965.

If he doesn't have the ability to see through the tea party fear-mongering talking points, he probably shouldn't be representing our country. This nonsense has been around since Obama was elected - more whackadoodle "he's not like us" b.s.

SGM

Perhaps it is you that have no idea about what you are talking about!

Watch what you say: Speech limits under UCMJ

http://www.armytimes.com/community/ask_lawyer/military_askthelawyer_070827w/

REC - Did you not have to give up the same rights in'65 as I did during the first Gulf war? You may want to re-read the UCMJ and re-evaluate your position.

How many military personnel were given the boot for criticizing Bush? If there were several then I have no problem with them keeping the same standards they enforced during the Bush years. If none were given the boot then this soldier shouldn't be punished more then others guilty of the same thing. He should probably be punished but not to this extreme measure.

First, people who don't know the laws shouldn't try to give an uneducated opinion without reading up on it first.

Second, the gentleman stated he would not follow "unlawful" orders. Which a servceperson is not required to follow by the UCMJ anyway. It would be unjust to kick him out on that basis. That would be a political decision on their part. Which is what they are saying is wrong. That would be hypocritical.

Thirdly, the only thing he could be criticized for is making political statements. If they are going to punish him for that, it shouldn't be to kick him out. That would be like executing someone for J-walking, ridiculously overkill and a gross miscarriage of justice.

And lastly, regardless of being in the military or not, everyone has the right to free speech. It is a constitutional right that cannot be signed away in any manner or for any reason. That is why it is an inalienable right.

That is the a main reason that the military fights for freedom. And he is exercising the right that all of those people trying to fry him are using against him. Who's the hypocrite?

Have a good day.

Why would you kick out a good soldier over a comment about a bad president???

"Political differences do not equate to "unlawful orders."

Correct. However, President Obama and Mr. Holder have made it policy to execute American citizens overseas without a trial, including innocent American children that have been related to SUSPECTED American terrorists. If a soldier was ordered by the President to fire on one of these children (instead of a drone firing a Hellfire missile), he could judge the order to be unlawful and refuse to obey it. He will have to make his case before a military judge after the action is over but not even the President can force a military member to execute non-combatatants and children. This is not about politics, it's about humanity and knowing right from wrong. The left wing fanatics need to learn the difference.

He should not run a political facebook page, however. If he wants to get into politics then he should leave the military and run for Congess. A lot of guys that I served with got away with this kind of stuff but the military is changing under President Obama. So is our country, I remember when you had the right to a lawyer and a trial in this country. Bush and Obama have both gone to great lengths to shred the Constitution of the United States. We all need to vote for independant candidates.

Rant over.

"Why would you kick out a good soldier over a comment about a bad president???"

Because, you can't do it publicly. When you wear that uniform you represent the people of the United States and the President that THOSE PEOPLE chose. You are never required to follow unlawful orders but you are also not permitted to use your service for political propaganda (even though politicians on both sides do it, soldiers can't).

I remember this same talk during the Bush years. Funny, you can see the extreme right wingers and the left wingers have just swapped talking points. lol.

Only one person has been kicked out for this, but it was under a Democrats administration (LBJ) and it was a commisioned officer, not a non-commisioned officer. In my opinion, this guy should not get kicked out. There were another 100 like him during the Bush years and they did not get booted. He should get an Article 15, lose some pay, and get extra-duty. He should be counseled that continuing with inflammatory remarks against the Commander in Chief will result in loss of rank and possible removal from service. Usually the first Article 15 does the trick and lets these soldiers know that they can't use their position in the military to influence politics.

vfw

The 1st time he did it. Nothing happened to him. He was told to shut the site down and stop. Which he did. Until he decided to become a barracks lawyer. And he disobeyed his commander and turned it back on. That is the reason he is being kicked out.

Obama gives political speeches with troops standing
behind him all the time.

Obama uses troops to make political statements.

This subject will come up next time Obama makes a political
comment at a military base.

I would like to be given an example of the troops who criticized the last administration, who openly started a web site! There is no argument to justify the blatant disrespect shown the present CIC. I hate to talk about race in this format; however it is becoming ABUNDANTLY clear that the hatred shown to our President has a lot to do with the fact that a Black man is in charge of the most powerful nation on earth. THERE, I said it. It's my opinion and until things change, I'm sticking to it.

Hey brucie....All you need to do is put your vote where your mouth is. And yes, it's almost always about race, though few admit it; that and stupidity. Just wondering, did you ever serve in the Military? Somehow I doubt it.

Bruce, please, you are showing your amazing gullibility in buying into the Glenn Beckisms. Please provide me with clear, concise, and referenced points that indicate President Obama has in any way, shape, or form established marxism in the United States. The burden of proof is on YOU, not on me, don't forget.

George two different references; Patriot act and the new and improved NDAA law. These are definitely against the constitution. I know Bush inacted the law and which nobody; I know agrees with it then and or now.

I still don't agree with what the soldier did and with that said he needs to held to the UMCJ, just as all soldiers are! I don't believe it's because he is Black, if truth be known he is just as much white as black. People whom want to scream racist all the time; are usually racist.

When I entered the Army in 1971 I took an oath to protect this country against all enemies both foreign and domestic! I interpreted it to mean anyone who was trying to destroy my country or subvert our constitution! Check the date and you will see what a--h--- was president at that time. While I had no respect for that president I did have a great deal of respect for the office of the president. It appears that anybody can truly become president but not all of them truly deserve respect!

darrell,

I hate the indefinite detention clause of the defense appropriations act as much as you seem to. I wish President Obama would have vetoed it like he threatened to do - if anything to make a point.

However, people who rant about it like you do are either misinformed or willfully chose to ignore that the provision was put there by the GOP's former candidate, John McCain, and his side kick Lindsey Graham.

You also chose to ignore that every republican senator voted for it (in fact it passed the senate with a 97 vote majority). Which makes it veto-proof btw. If you dust off your civics book it only takes a 2/3 majority to over-ride a veto.

And lastly you chose to ignore the fact that the President included a signing order stating that that law would not be implemented as long as he was president. The scary part is that the next guy may not be as enlightened about it as our current president is. A veto would have been a stronger statement but I think he caved due to the $600 billion dollars in military spending cuts - aside from the fact that his veto would have been overturned and he would have spent a lot of political capital on a Quixotic stand.

So in short, I'm saying that using this as an example of Obama's Marxism (which is an economic concept, not what you seem to think it means) falls flat on its face.

If that would have happened during the Bush/Cheney debacle, this marine probably would have been prosecuted.

Punishment yes, dumping, no! He must have been good at what he does to be at the rate (pay grade) he is at. Bad-mouthing superiors is a way of life in the military. He followed protocol, disclaimer and all. The military as it stands now is not worth being in. But his benefits? He earned them. He did more for his country than those making him into a political example. The punishment is excessive. and comparing Bush-Cheney to Obama-whoever? is irrelevant here. Besides, much fewer military disdained the former two. The issue would have never arose.

i think he should be allowed to keep serving his country i thought this was america were we had freedom of speech why should he be punished for speaking the truth in my opinon obama is for every moslum country and putting the mosque where the trade center which in my opinion make him a just as guilty as the terrios t who commited the crime and the harm he keeps doing to are country putting it in major debt in my opinion he puts everything before the safety of our military

I really don't care what all you Libs think of this Marine. I think he deserves a medal for standing up for his beliefs. Yes, he broke the rules and oath he took, but to strip him of everything is just disgusting. How about we strip Obama of all his rights just for being an inapt president. I'd take this Marine anyday over our piece of cra* president we have now! At least this solider is protecting us, not hurting the USA like Obama has been doing. Compare the two and who would you trust more? I'll take the solider everytime.

Laurie Dickson, you're right! This is another thing to add to the list of unAmerican things Obama has done and another step toward socialism/communism. OUR MILITARY MEMBERS HAVE THE SAME RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH THE REST OF US HAVE! This is one more reason that our presidents should all have to have been in the military! He actively tries to persecute members of the military. How many of you who voted for this idiot are ready to admit you were wrong?

In addition, the vote graph shows that the no votes are more than the yes votes, but there is about 1 no comment per 7 to 10 yes ones! Can't this network at least be unbiased enough to show the right proportion? Guess not; why did I even ask the question?

Lets get real...he posted on his Facebook page...which by definition is not public because you have to actually join Facebook and become an invited friend or otherwise permitted to see his posts. Secondly he did not refuse an order or say that he would refuse a specific order. He said he would not follow an order issued to him by Obama and then quickly changed it to an "illegal order". Refusing to follow illegal orders is his duty. One could check with Sgt Calley who spent time in the can for following an illegal order during Vietnam. So basically Obama got his panties in a bunch because some Sgt stated he would not follow an illegal order if issued by Obama...I guess Obama anticipates issuing illegal orders at some point in the future and does not want anyone in the military who may not do as told. There is no way on earth that the Obama Admin was not pulling the strings of this Marine tribunal .

I think he should not be kicked out but he needs to be punished ! and he should make a apology to the president!

His oath included to defend his country from all enemies foreign and domestic...And make no mistake people Obama is the latter.

PS if president bush was in office this would not be a issue! the president has more important things to worry about and this is not one of them !

When did Facebook become the listening tool for the government to monitor the voice of the people? Yes I know he is in the military and must conduct himself accordingly, but that does not mean he has to like the current president, whoever that may be. This seems more like obama's ego and less about freedom of speech. Does the government not have more important issues to be concerned with other than Facebook?

As a retired Non Commissioned Officer at the pay grade of E8, I noticed the percentages of people who take this lightly.

Here's my advice, Just keep in mind that any Military organization in the world that has held political clout has been at risk of demonstrating contempt by Coup. So google that and see what you get when the military gets involved in politics, Our Military is volunteer, non political and works at the whelm of our President, who ever he may be.

Great point Jumpmaster82...

Joan, still doesn't exclude the marine from his oath, correct? You will have your chance to boot the president out in November. Until then this marine went against his oath. We cannot have it both ways.

Hey, moron, you say Obama is trampling the Constitution? What about Bush? He and his buddies used it for toilet paper!

BTW, as a Marine Viet Nam vet I can tell you that he has NO free speech rights while wearing the uniform...period, end of story! He cannot criticize the Commander in Chief since, as CarlZup already pointed out, he took an oath to follow his superiors orders!

Here we go again with the defenders of this jackass being under-informed jerks who never served. Yes, Joan, that means you. Stick to the topic, get off the pedestal that we veterans built for you and do some studying.

Joan is an angry old white dude apparently....or has a desire to be limited to her kitchen....barefoot and pregnant!

@rational - CONservatives don't respond well to reason. They really just don't get it (Sheeple normally don't - it's easier to follow blindly.) We're not trying to be unkind, simply to speak in a language that she and Dubya and Mittens and Limbaugh understand.

Exactly Joan K-749253

We defend or have served and defend the US Constitution so that you can vote your one vote......that has been done since 1812 by following the orders of the CIC.

Dbach - would you like to engage in debate with a veteran/constitutional lawyer instead? Or should I point out again that this is NOT a Constitutional issue? This "Marine" disobeyed the expressly written rules of the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

joan

As well as the President took oath of office to uphold our Constitution yet is trampling it like a worthless rag

How is he trampling it?

flnobody...................well, for starters obumbo crammed his healthcare down our throats which would require everyone to BUY insurance.

"Hey, moron, you say Obama is trampling the Constitution? What about Bush? He and his buddies used it for toilet paper!"

Bush did strip Americans of a lot of our freedoms with the Patriot Act. Obama has continued the Patriot Act but did not stop there. President Obama and Mr. Holder think that they can kill American citizens anywhere in the world without lawyers or trial. American teenagers killed in Yemen because they were RELATED to SUSPECTED terrorists? Don't forget that the Obama administration demanded (and received) that they be allowed to imprison American citizens and hold them indefinately without having to charge them, give them a lawyer, or a trial. It's GITMO for Americans! Also, the US Government has authorized using drones to spy on American citizens. I guess that Bush authorizing monitoring our communications was not enough. We went from bad to worse, wake up America!!!!! Both parties are corrupt and are shredding our rights! Read what the ACLU have said about Bush and Obama!

"BTW, as a Marine Viet Nam vet I can tell you that he has NO free speech rights while wearing the uniform...period, end of story! He cannot criticize the Commander in Chief since, as CarlZup already pointed out, he took an oath to follow his superiors orders!"

That's just not true. I'm guessing that you did not work at JAG? Every soldier has freedom of speech rights as long as they stay within these guidelines:

Article 88, which makes it a crime for an OFFICER to use
contemptuous words against the president, the vice president, Congress, the
secretary of defense, the secretary of a military department, the secretary of
the Department of Homeland Security, or the governor or legislature of any
state, territory, commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present.

AND

Article 134, makes criminal those acts of speech that are prejudicial to good order and discipline or that could bring discredit upon the Armed Forces.

You can still speak but Article 134 would probably apply here since he is a non-commisioned officer. I would say that actively campaigning against the most superior of officers falls under "prejudicial to good order and discipline".

usa

I didn't read that in the constitution. Could you point it out to me please? What about the repugs making women have sonograms and they have to pay for it? Or having a probe stuffed up her without her permission? I guess if it's a repug, they can make people pay for health care that they don't want right?

To nayvet and others. Please learn to differentiate between reich wingers and conservatives. The reich wingers seem to thrive on beckisms. Also, they continue regurgitating the same half-truths and lies ad nauseum.

Conservatives, and there are a number who post here, can make a decent argument - IQ above freezing!!!

Did this marine make the same comments and post the same diatribe when an unlawful declaration of war was put to our military when G.W. lied to our country about invading Iraq. Being a member of the so far right tea party leads me to believe, he did not.

If all who feel a man, a citizen-soldier by the way, can't state his disdain for what he sees as unconstitutional orders from on high, he is no better than an SS member. Two issues: Did he disassociate his views from the Corps? and is he getting order that violate either his conscience or his oath? What party he is in? Irrelevant!

I'll never forget that azz Bush having the gall to fly onto that carrier with a flak jacket on and announce "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED". Now, that was an embarrassing day in this country. If any president deserved to be disrespected it was him and his cohort Cheney who actually electrocuted soldiers in the shower because his precious Haliburton was taking jobs they were not qualified to do.

How did he violate his oath? The oath states he will carry out orders in accordance with the regulations and Code of Military Justice. Does not the regulations and Code require a marine to disregard an order which is knowingly unlawful? As I read it the Sgt merely stated that he would follow his oath...it seems Obama was a bit unhappy with the implied message that Obama may someday issue such an order. Hardly worthy of discharge in my opinion. I think Obama has a bit of a tin ear.

Excuse me but do we still have freedom of speech in this country or was that before we went communist?? Please, government, get a life and focus on real issues instead of being worried about being 'politically correct'. Or maybe the 'officials' in this country just want to take the focus off themselves. To put this negative focus on a man serving his country and putting his life on the line for all of us is just disgusting and typical of what this country has reduced itself to. Wake up people! We are still 'we the people' right??

Informative to know some of the oaths and "laws/codes" that our military live or die by!!

Don't know that I agree 100% but is nice to know!!

VFW.Member

"Don't forget that the Obama administration demanded (and received) that they be allowed to imprison American citizens and hold them indefinitely without having to charge them, give them a lawyer, or a trial."

That gem of the defence bill was put together my McCain and Lieberman and passed with a veto proff majority. President Obama opposed the language and even went so far as to issue a signing statement that it would never be enacted as long as he is President.

This has been well know by all, so either you are just woefully uniformed or you are a liar--either way, you choose to see only what you want to see and hope that others are just as ignorant and choose to believe your fabrications.

This marine knew the rules going in and doesn't have a legal leg to stand on. If he were an honourable man, he would request to be allowed out of his enlistment, on a general discharge, at the end of his present tour of duty.

Oh...its a little more serious than that. Identifying yourself as a US Marine and defying the CinC is a serious violation of the UCMJ. If he encouraged other service members to do the same, it's called mutiny or potentially inciting insurrection. I think he should STFU and take the discharge. Beats the hell out of a UCMJ charge of treason.

Ol_Doc - You're right, but so is Chris. There's absolutely NO question he should be fired from the Marine Corps. If I went around on Facebook saying I wasn't going to do what my bosses told me...well that wouldn't last long would it?

The only determination to be made is, like you said, if he's going to face charges on the issue.

Falconear, what are you not understanding here? It absolutely IS NOT the same as in civilian life. Full Stop. End of story. This jackass is lucky he's not going to be hanged for insurrection. THAT IS THE REALITY OF THE UCMJ.

The only determination to be made is, like you said, if he's going to face charges on the issue.

Not really. It appears he has been given the option of an Administrative Discharge. He has the right to demanding a Court Marshall. While it is his right it probably would not work out for him well. Probably a few years in Federal Prison, followed by a Dishonorable Discharge (not a future career enhancing move), in my humble opinion.

I don't think that President Obama wants to be only the second President to have a soldier kicked out for this in the history of the country. The other was Lyndon B Johnson when an Army OFFICER (not NCO) was kicked out for criticizing Johnson over his war in Vietnam which violated Article 88. Does the guy need to be disciplined for Article 134 violations? Yes. Be the first serviceman/woman to be kicked out for it? No. What about those that did far worse under Bush and Clinton? Has America become that bad? I know that Obama put into overdrive what Bush started by shredding our Constitutional rights, but how far do these corrupt Democrats AND Republicans plan on taking us? Have they started construction on the gulags yet?

Correct. All of you that have not served are clueless. As much as the Marine SGT. He knows better and like other GOP members, jumped on the "desperation tactic" band-wagon.

Once one takes the oath of enlistment, one gives up certain freedoms provided under the U.S. Constitution. This is neccessary, among other reasons, for the unity and social cohesion of the military. The military simply can not have members injecting their political views into the operation of the military. This Marine had been advised of this, yet he continued with his actions. He should be dismissed. He is in violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice

One of the big time Democrats of history is George McClellan. He was a General in the Union Army, a candidate for president and ended up governor of New Jersey. Google his life and then come back here with your views towards appropriate punishment for this poor enlisted man. I know this is a very difficult task for those so convinced about things, but some dude previously said some of us (expletive deleted) who are not lefties have something to offer. If you are just sitting here pot-shooting at (repugs? repukes? reich-wingers) maybe the 90 seconds or so you take to do this might just be an epiphany.

If you undermine your command you should be reprimanded, re-evaluated, maybe even transfered, but as a LIFE LONG defender of human rights and free speech. I am appalled at my fellow Democrats who are trying find reasons to justify punishing him for voicing his opinions. It he fails to follow an order it is up to HIS COMMANDER to decide what to do. If his actions threatened his fellows Marines that would be on him, but seeing how he is pretty upfront I assume he wouldn't go to on the mission.

Dear fellow Democrats, cut the cr@p...don't trade our values for convenience.

Agreed.

NOT a marine...more like a traitor...

I certainly wouldn't trust him as a fellow Marine to have my back.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Dude did you post along with your fellow Marine aganist President Obama?? I'm guessing ....NOT so just STOP being a PRETENDER !! If you believe in what you're saying MAN UP DUDE AND POST LIKE YOUR HERO SGT> STEIN...Yeah that's what I thought Just another CLOSET HATER !!

Pure and simple Mr Obama isn't a president or commander-in-chief. He is busy sending money to the mid-east for Mosque

You are a complete and utter idiot.

jmsmith.....No that title...the coward of a life time GOES TO......wait for it...the men who killed..plundered And made money duping the USA.......Bush and Cheney! There "Gift" keeps on giving it to US.

jmsmith...kudos and thanks for your service from a retired USAF. I feel for all of our military today for having to work under this bag-o-crap hussein but it is what it is and we all raised our hand and swore the oath. Lets vote the hate-mongering America apologist out ASAP!

All you people still stuck on the Obama is a muslim, etc. and he bows to foreign leaders you must have forgotten both Jr. & Sr. Bush bowing to the Saudi's, I guess you would call it "boot-licking". It's just called diplomacy, but whatever.

Lets take Obama on his record 1) Pulled us from the brink of economic collapse, a collapse Republicans created. Yeah, he will get re-elected for sure.

PS- this is America, this Marine has free speech, it is up to his direct commanders to decide his fate, not us.

The Constitution doesn't come into play here, guys, the Uniform Code of Military Justice does. When you sign on to serve, you immediately give up some of the rights that you would normally enjoy as a civilian. It's clear. It's simple. You are asked if you understand this before you sign on. I find it interesting that so many veterans are voting "yes" (as I did) when asked if this idiot should be kicked out, while the overwhelming majority of his defenders appear to be people who never wore a uniform.

I was in the service for 8 years, and you should know that American soldiers DON'T have the same rights as citizens, and it says so in your enlistment oath and in the agreement you sign.

Soldiers do not have a right against unreasonable search and seizure, do not have a right of freedom of movement or of free speech.

They GIVE UP their rights in order to protect YOURS, because individual rights and freedoms can often interfere with orderly and effective discipline of a standing army.

This guy signed those rights away willing. It's part of the job. He can't snivel about it now.

Alright men, we've been ordered to invade Pakistan at dawn. First, we'll have 45 minutes of discussion of whether we should go or not, whether it's a lawful order or not, and then we'll vote on it. If we decide to follow orders, I sure hope the outfits on our left and right decide to go also and cover our flanks...

So what miserable excuse to not serve did you use Mike-283147? A glorified pimple on your butt like Rush Limbaugh?

Soldiers fall under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Not a veteran?

Thanks for re-stating that, Fawn. What is it that people don't understand about military life vs. civilian life? @Realist - Short answer: Yes. A veteran is a CIVILIAN.

Rocketman - love it!

I find it interesting that so many veterans are voting "yes" (as I did) when asked if this idiot should be kicked out, while the overwhelming majority of his defenders appear to be people who never wore a uniform.

NavyVet...you can't understand a system you have never been involved with. The people defending this Marine do not understand that it doesn't matter who the Commander in Chief is, it doesn't matter what party he is in. Your oath and your responsibilities under the UCMJ take priority over all of the political consideration. Folks, if you're going to serve in the United States Armed Forces...forget party, it will only get you in a world of hurt.

realist pondering

Soldiers fall under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Not a veteran?

Is that a question? If it is then yes. All members of the US Armed Forces on active duty fall under the UCMJ. Once you are discharged, the UCMJ no longer applies and you revert back to civilian authority.

TO: mike-283147 who wrote:

"...can Obama be critical of the Sergeant?.....but the Sergeant can't be critical of his leader."

President Obama is Commander in Chief, so yes he could be critical of the Sergeant but I doubt very seriously that the President would criticize the Sergeant. President Obama has other remedies for dealing with insubordinates, one of which is to kick that kid's dumb butt out of the military if he is unwilling or unable to take orders.

Obama / Biden 2012

can Obama be critical of the Sergeant?.....but the Sergeant can't be critical of his leader

I've got to address this one...this is great! I suggest you rent a move called "Full Medal Jacket". Take particular note of the section dedicated to "Basic Training". Note the rapport between the Drill Instructor and the Recruits. It's actually a pretty accurate depiction of basic during the 1960s (minus the dead Drill Instructor).
Here is the question I would have you ask yourself; it the Drill Instructor can be critical of the Recruits, do you suppose the Commander in Chief of the United States Armed Forces (outranking every General and Admiral) can be critical of a non-commissioned officer? Now be a good boy and go outside to play.

Let's build on Rocketman's comment a bit. We've been ordered to invade Pakistan at dawn. Due to a lack of personnel and facilities for POWs, all prisoners will be summarily executed. Do the troops blindly follow these orders? Only if they didn't receive proper training in the laws of armed conflict. Soldiers actually are obliged not to follow illegal orders. The caveat is, are you certain the order is unlawful? A sergeant, or any other troop, may claim his orders were illegal, but he/she better be ready to prove that at trial.

Vigon, I agree with your post. The example you gave to kill all prisoners would likely be found to be an illegal order in any court, or court martial. However, if the claim is that the order is illegal because the C-in-C is not a "natural born citizen," and therefore unqualified to hold office and issue orders, well, that argument has been smacked down in at least two of Orly Taitz's federal lawsuits brought by military plainitffs. Besides, that "unqualified to issue orders" argument could be brought at any and all levels of the Chain of Command. How about, "Colonel (or Captain), could I see your West Point Diploma and your Commission, Sir?" Orders are one thing, politics are another.

Vigon - this douche did not refuse to follow an unlawful order (What order? Who gave it? When was it given?) AGAIN - he identified himself as a Marine, affiliated himself with a political movement and publicly criticized his (our) Commander in Chief. He may even be guilty of attempting incite rebellion, insurrection and possibly treason.

Mike-Nope, he cannot be critical of his bosses. and he knew this when he signed on. He made a contract with the US Government and swore an oath. He broke the contract. I have two sons in the Army, and they refuse to talk politics with even me nowadays. They keep their opinions to themselves.

It's true, you really can't fix stupid.. HINT TRY posting about YOUR boss and see how long you keep your job ....duh. wft dude !!

No Comment.

mylife, never a more true statement. It's true, you really can't fix stupid.. HINT TRY posting about YOUR boss and see how long you keep your job ....duh. wft dude !!

John - you're right inasmuch as the military tends to be overwhelmingly CONservative. You're VERY mistaken to think that, for a serving member of the military, the Constitution trumps the UCMJ. Ask anyone who heard some idiot try to say something similar to a drill instructor in boot camp.

Once one takes the oath of enlistment, one gives up certain freedoms provided under the U.S. Constitution. This is neccessary, among other reasons, for the unity and social cohesion of the military. The military simply can not have members injecting their political views into the operation of the military. This Marine had been advised of this, yet he continued with his actions. He should be dismissed. He is in violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

John Hancock - Have you served? If you had you wouldn't even bother making these stupid statements...here's you reference:

The Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ, 64 Stat. 109, 10 U.S.C. Chapter 47), is the foundation of military law in the United States. It was established by the United States Congress in accordance with the authority given by the United States Constitution in Article I, Section 8, which provides that "The Congress shall have Power . . . To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval forces."

A member of the United States Armed Forces not only has the right but the responsibility to question or disobey an unlawful order. At the same time, you better be right! If the order is deemed lawful it's UCMJ time again. And in a combat environment, while engaging the enemy...don't even think about it.

John, the UCMJ has been developed and followed since Washington took command of the Colonial Troops. He had men whipped for trying ti encourage others to go home during the winter at Valley Forge......every soldier needs to follow the orders given.

Quick legal lesson in standard English: Civil law is the default law of the land; it is summarized by the Constitution. Contract law is the set of laws governing an organization which you enter into by choice, and whose rules you agree to follow as a condition of membership. The UCMJ is the set of contract law regulations which cover members of the military. It is the equivalent of the by-laws of a private membership organization, such as the BPOE, Knights of Columbus, American Medical Association, or for enrolling your child in a private religious academy. By accepting the benefits of membership you affirm you will in turn hold to all rules of that particular organization, including, in the case of the military, sanctions outlined for breaking those rules/malfeasance. This is why the military has its own courts and legal system within but not entirely mirroring the civil courts.

Good Point!!

But I would hope that our judgement is not clouded by common sense.

No it's not - it's part of the job and it's necessary.

Don't feel sorry for them - respect the decision they made to give up their rights in order to protect yours.

it can be both unfortunate and necessary, they aren't mutually exclusive. it's also implied that you have to respect someone that will fight for your rights even when they don't get the same rights.

No...they would not! This is more than an infraction and the Marine Corps is being more than lenient. What this SGT did could have landed him in Leavenworth.

COULD have landed him in Kansas? It damned well SHOULD have. If it were happening in WWI, he probably would've faced a firing squad.

Ol_Doc & NavyVet:

Agreed. Stein should be weeping tears of joy if loss of rank and discharge is all he faces.

What fellow soldier could trust this Marine in combat if this guy is going decide for himself which orders he will follow and which ones he won't? This guy shot himself in the foot with his fellowmen. He is useless.

Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) if believe covers this issue. This soldier has 9 years in the Corp and doesn't know what laws govern his conduct. When instructed not to do what he was doing and made the decision to do it anyway...All Bets are OFF! If he loves the Corp, accept his fate and drive on!

No, he doesn't have the right to free speech. You give up that right when you join the service.

sheriff joe better hurry up or he'll be removing obama from the white house after his second term.

BS

lol, that's almost how i replied to your first comment.

Sheriff Joe is a source you use? The Reader's Digest would be better. What's in the water in Arizona? Peyote? Why doesn't Sheriff Joe concentrate his time and funds on abuse cases? You don't get publicity for just doing the real job you're elected to. Sheriff Joe is a publicity hound and a shrewd self-promoter. He is laughing at you and your fellow fans who make him famous and help feed his very poor self image.

Sheriff Joe is too busy dyeing socks pink and counting money he makes from TV shows that moronic @!$%#s like you watch to even worry about this.

If you can't spell free speech, you don't deserve it.

Shellie - does that apply to "NUCULAR" as well? ;)

And just when I was thinking "wow, how many times do these people have to read that it's not a constitutional issue, this guy broke the rules and should be in the slammer, etc. before they get it?" here you come bringing in the moron comment of the day, making almost everyone else look intelligent.

Unfreaking-believable. The Tea Party is tearing this country apart with its stupidity, lies, and fear-mongering. NO ONE with a brain could evaluate Obama's work and make the claims these people do. I don't care if you don't like him, a president's record speaks for itself. I was in misery for 8 years with a president who couldn't pronounce words correctly or put together a sentence with more than 5 words. But that's the least of why Bush was a horrible president--his record says it all; economic decline, exploding national deficit, and more that I'll skip since it's off-subject.

Obama isn't afraid...He has fired a career General because the General 's Col. was laughing at Obama. Obama has fired 2 Navy Capt.s. He had Col. West fired for not being nice to a captured terrorist. I'm sure Obama has fired a long list of distinguished career officers. So, this Sargent doesn't have a chance as a marine.

The President doesn't fire Military Officers. The Secretary of Defense, or the Secretary of the Army/Navy/Air Force does, unless in the rare instance that person was directly appointed by the President such as a Theater Commander or JCS member.

Al........There would be a lot less wars. Obama starts the wars and the military fights them.

Congress starts the wars last time I looked at the Constitution.

your response to Libya? There are things that Mr. Obama has done that draws my concern, however, he is not the only one. Right now he holds the office and deserves every bit of respect for said office. Being a vet myself this soldier basically stuck his boot so far up his keister, his breath smells like kiwi.

If you've ever served you know this w/o a doubt what he did was against the UMCJ in which all military personnel are committed too! I know it may sound harsh, but, he is being offered his freedom and to me he ought to be jumping with joy. If he wants to stay in he can go to re-training brigade in Fort Riley and they will integrate in him the rules once again.

There is a law that when in combat situations this could be considered treason and he could get the death penalty for that. So yes they are being lenient. Have a nice day everyone!

Michael, you are one candy ass U.S. Marine.

As a Marine Viet Vet you make me ill Michael! Where were you when Bush and company were trampling all over the constitution? Were you following their orders (as you were supposed to) or were you protesting online and elsewhere? Either way, you were a poor excuse for a marine!

If you feel that strongly about "domestic threats", what are you suggesting should be done? And please, post your name, Mr. Retiree...or forfeit your benefits, if the Commander in Chief (YOUR BOSS), offends you so much. Betcha won't, "tough guy"!

president is a domestic threat right now so something needs to be done

How is he a threat again? Who is he threatening? Or is it just because he's not on your side of the fence? Or is he a threat for the same reason that kid that was shot in Florida was a threat?

Or MLK or the Kennedy's for that matter?

Allen....You are a real big man calling a marine names on the internet. Reno....thanks for your service!

data, I'm an Army guy so I will call him a candy ass because that is the type of military man he is.
Speaking of candy asses, where did you serve?

They should be allowed free speech just like anyone this is so wrong.. This man has served our country and worked harder than most of us and defended our country and is going to be dishonorably discharged is a a disgrace to this man!

job creating....Obama is half negro and half white. Get your facts right. How did the tea party enter your brain??????

Are you crazy...it doesn't matter if this President is a polka dot kangaroo. Frankly I am sick of people using the race card anytime someone disagrees with the man. GAD!!!! He has single handedly made great accomplishments, turning this country into a Socialist Republic...taking from workers, giving to anyone who walks into the country legally or not; and increasing RED TAPE. Taking away one freedom after another!! We can now be arrested for showing up with a picket sign anyplace there are secret service. THAT IS WHERE WE NEED TO BE - TO COMPLAIN!! (ANOTHER LOST FREEDOM) Really LISTEN to WHAT he actually says!!! What is scarier is that is what the Democratic Party is becoming (they just don't have the gall to run on the Socialist Ticket!!), and the Republican Party isn't much better ( they seem to represent themselves). Both Parties have forgotten...THEY WORK FOR US!!

That is what people are noticing, and reacting to. If you can't see it, take off the rose colored glasses before we lose it all!! What we are losing has no color or religious boundaries, fool!!!

This guy made the mistake of expressing his First Amendment Rights, and expressed worries about this country. And he apparently miffed an Obama supporter. Now the whole thing has blown out of control.

Obviously you people are missing the big picture. All of you have the right to free speech. Tomorrow morning go into work and tell your boss you think he is a complete imbicile. Tell him you think he is doing a piss poor job of running the company you work for. How many of you are so sure about your right to free speech now? Bunch of pansies. You do it first thing. Ask to meet with him publically, not behind closed doors. do it publically or even on facebook and tell someone so he can view your page and see your comments.

You will be fired. No trial, not rights to appeal the decision. Insubordination is insubordination. Beyond being the POTUS he is CIC of the US Armed forces. Barack is this soldiers boss. I served under a few presidents to include daddy Bush and we never disrepected or bad mouthed the President. It was to disrespect myself, my country, my unit and uniform. No soldier that has an ounce of honor disrepects the very people paying them to serve our country. Barack represents the people of the United States, not himself.

Once I swore an oath to defend the country against all enemies, that meant enemies as defined by the congress and POTUS, not a political organization or lobby. At no time was this POS put in any capacity to determine for his superiors who or what constituted an enemy of the country. It was above his pay grade.

He should have been given a big chicken dinner, BCD. Nothing less. It is hard enough to keep the enemies of America at bey without our own NCO's leading a bad example within the ranks. I hope he goes on to hate America even more, but as a civilian.

If you did not serve, you would not know the first thing about the rights of servicepersons so STFU. We are not private citizens but property of the United States government with the right granted us under the Uniformed Code of Military Justice. It is called a code for a reason. This is to imply we conduct ourselves to a higher standard than civilians. We live and breath to give our lives if asked for our country, no civilian pledges such a sacrifice. You can afford to be wreckless with your speech because the eyes of the world are not focused on you individuals. Never will a snipers scope fall upon your head, will you have to walk among the enemy and face death from an IED, only to come back to a country full of hate monger that only wake up to find a new way to divide us. You are the enemy, this turd is the enemy.

Hundreds of thousands of soldiers follow orders willfully, obediently and as directed. The military is all volunteer. He chose to give up his rights and accept the UCMJ. You civies need to quit hollering about how he had the same rights because he gave them up on his own, no one made him sign up.

he can fight this, he will lose because it is the law and he thought he could beat it by publicizing his fight.

K west, Sorry to read your comments against what you call the 37%. I'm sure that President Obama is a decent human being. As a former Marine I stand for the principles this nation was founded upon. We all have the right to speak as we may. Unfortunately the Pres. & the socialist types like yourself,the give me "everything for nothin" types, need to pack your bags & get your lazy, good for nothin" fat asses out of this great country of ours. Ours, meaning those who have worn the uniform to defend the rights we are all blessed with, & those who truly abide by the principles handed down by the brave & Godly fathers of our country. Heck, if you don't like it here why don't you go to some other country that runs under the socialist flag. Somewhere like the Soviet Union for beginners. That's exactly where "Change for America" is headed as long as we have bozos like yourself suckin' up to the liberal malcontents.

Nice post, try spell check...before you post negative things.

Thanks Bro. Yeah it was a little negative. Just gettin' stuff off of my chest. Get irritated with all of the bashing of a fellow Marine who used his free speech to make a staement. Think of all the hate speech that went against Pres. Bush while in office by his peers & members of the armed forces. It's like Pres. Obama is off limits for any statements contrary to liberal ideology. Sickens me.

Owen.....Under OBAMAcare the president gets a 6000 person army under his personal control

Owen, I wore the uniform and I think you are a sanctimonious individual who has obviously never read the Constitution.

Owen, It Is YOU who should leave. You may not like our president , but for you to tell anybody to leave the USA that disagrees with you is absolute hypocrisy of the highest order. This is president is not only an honorable man, but he is also not a Socialist. If I really thought for one minute that you actually felt that way, I will buy you a one way ticket to the country of your choice. Get a Grip!!!!!

He not only should not be kicked out; he should be finished at the end of his tour with no regard to this matter. This is an American citizen who has the same rights as ANY American. I see nothing objectionable to his expressing his views...and I agree with whatever he said.

the men and women of our armed forces fight for our rights to freedom. unfortunately, this includes those who want to make spanish our first language, stop saying the pledge of allegiance in school, take God out of our country, etc etc etc, blah blah blah....however, it IS still their choice and their freedoms. To have this SOLDIER removed from service for something he SAID, is hypocrisy. One fewer Marine is one man less protecting our rights, lives, and freedoms. I have never worn the uniform but i honor those who do. And to quote a movie, "The sit on the wall and say "no one will hurt you tonight, not on my watch". Semper Fi marines

Elmer Fudd? And I'll bet you were a BIG fan of our previous druggy flyboy president right? Mr. Mission Accomplished? Mr. Bring It On? That clown was the ultimate disgrace to his uniform and the country!

@Golfer, You nailed it. Even we Texan Veterans (those of us who can think, anyway,) will agree with you on the Dubya comment.

Lurk I think Obama didn't start these wars, also, that "Elmer Fudd" ordered the raid on Osama that actually accomplished something and has increased the drone targeting of terrorists, no matter where they are, fool.

romilio........Obama doesn't use the word "terrorists" Speaking of Fools, how are you?

People seem to forget that this is not Obams's war

it is George W. Bush's war.

George had little success, only his own self-proclaimed win..

and to mame many unfortunate americans

Mr. Obama has single handed eliminated many al quida

who indeedare the real culprits in the attack on

the world trade center and America.