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Sgt. Justin Griffith took up Fort Bragg officials on their promise not to discriminate on on-base activities after a 2010 concert and festival organized by evangelical Christians.
After a sometimes painful 18 months of gestation, Sgt. Justin Griffith of Fort Bragg, N.C., exclaims, "My baby is about to be born!" His baby is Rock Beyond Belief, apparently the first major atheist event on a U.S. military base.
Griffith, 29, who has served five years in the Army, including two deployments to Iraq, has been wrestling with the overwhelmingly Christian establishment in the Army since September 2010 to get to this point.
The March 31 event is Griffith’s answer to Rock the Fort — a day-long evangelical Christian concert and festival held at Fort Bragg on Sept. 25, 2010, put on by the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, with the support and blessing of the military brass. It was the fourth in a series of events sponsored by the group on various U.S. bases dating to 2009.
Among the headliners for the all-day atheist festival on the base are scientist Richard Dawkins, the rock band Aiden and singer/songwriter Roy Zimmerman.
Griffith is most proud that the event has garnered the same material support from the military that it gave the evangelical Christian event. This week, he announced that he had secured a commitment for the U.S. Army Golden Knights — an elite skydiving team — to perform in the festival, despite the reluctance of some of the team’s Christian members.
"We asked for apples-to-apples treatment to the (Christian) event," said Griffith. "We fought for it. I won. I think (Fort Bragg leadership) won too because they did the right thing."
Griffith, who describes himself as a hardcore atheist, said he loves the Army, but he is constantly chafing at prayers — Christian, or non-specific invocations — that routinely are included in military ceremonies. But the Rock the Fort concert and festival spurred him to action.
"They bragged that they got hundreds of soldiers … to accept Jesus Christ as their lord and savior," said Griffith of the concert-festival series. "That is unacceptable. The chaplain’s job is not to grow their flock, it’s their job to take tend to the existing flock."
Griffith was the most outspoken critic of the event on the base, though a number of groups — Freedom from Religion Foundation, American United for the Separation of Church and State and others — said the event violated the constitutional separation of church and state.
Lt. Gen. Frank Helmick who leads the 18th Airborne Corps responded by saying that soldiers were not pressured to attend the event, and assured critics that he would provide the same opportunity to non-Christian groups that wanted to host similar events, according to a USA Today report at the time. Garrison Commander Stephen Sicinski provided a similar guarantee in writing, Griffith said.
So Griffith started planning Rock Beyond Belief. The process was bumpy — and bureaucratic — but the event was eventually approved for April 2011.
But when he learned that the forum set aside for the event would hold only a few hundred people — "a broom closet" in his estimation — he canceled it. Arguing that Dawkins, a noted genetics scientist and atheist celebrity, alone routinely pulls much larger crowds than that, he reapplied for a bigger venue this year, and won approval for the March 31 gathering, a year later.
Rock Beyond Belief has drawn some fierce criticism. Army Chaplain Chuck Williams, for example, posted an open letter on Fort Bragg’s Facebook page calling for cancelation of the event, which he contended is being held only "to secure a public, government-owned venue to ridicule, mock and disparage those of our fellow Soldiers and family members who do profess a faith in God."
He also wrote that "part of this event will be glorifying violence against people who possess a faith in God through the burning of churches," a reference to lyrics from a song by Aiden. "This is appalling!"
Griffith blames a Fox News commentary by Todd Starnes for the furor, charging that he misunderstood the lyrics, which were satirical. The band’s lead singer wrote that the song “Hysteria” was actually a condemnation of faith-on-faith violence and hatred.
Although the event appears set to go forward, the debate continues. Griffith said he has received "bizarre death threats," but he also feels the conversation is changing, and putting Fort Bragg in a new light.
"I’m so proud of Fort Bragg and this is not supposed to be a black eye to them," he said. "These little corrections are important, and the Army deserves them. I want to know if I have crumbs on my face. That’s what this is. If it’s a big deal it’s only temporarily a big deal."
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he looks like the guy from softcell...an a lil like pee wee herman
very pale son! maybe...eat more fruits!
...i recommend...Listen! listen to the soft cell record...~and think about this guy
(but skip tainted love~) i don't know...~how they did it...diff producer
if that's you in your avatar you're not exactly a poster boy for tanning or good looking people.
Why. Why. Why do people type like this. It makes me lose faith in humanity.
...says the guy posting on newsvine.
My nose is fine. But in my experience, people who mangle the English language as badly as you fall into one of three categories:
1) Teenage girls (i typeeeee like thissss becuz its sooo cuteeee!!!1one!)
2) Drug addicts (whoa mann... i put" ~random punctuation marks? in my sentences- because... i think it makes me seem + less conventional and more: unique, I'm so deep & you could never follow ~~ my train of thought POTATO,)
3) Idiots. No further explanation needed.
I'm not entirely positive, but I'd bet next week's beer money that you fall into category 2.
See? That's what I mean. That only made sense to you because you're probably tripping balls right now.
Just a tip for you (and you can either ignore this or make some good life decisions based on it): doing lots of drugs "opens your mind" the same way that driving your car at 50 mph in first gear "tunes up your engine". It's only a matter of time before you find yourself permanently parked on Syd Barret Lane.
Yes Chris, deifnitely a confirmed #2 with a healthy dose of #3 as a foundation.
I can ASSURE you that this guy was BEGGING FOR GOD to SAVE him, while he was in the "foxhole" I spent 20 years in the Military, NUMEROUS front line combat tours. There are NO "atheists" in front line combat...False bravado here, NOTHING ELSE...
There are PLENTY of atheists in foxholes. Don't kid yourself. That is a blanket statement that lacks any verifiable proof.
blackened
and you have proof
Sorry, bran, just as many folks look around them, see the death and destruction, and come to the conclusion that there could be no god. Examples? Ted Williams, baseball hero and combat pilot. What about Pat Tillman? Have the seen the documentary confirming his atheism? What about Hemingway? World War l combat vet and atheist. Oh, and me; Vietnam combat vet and atheist. Yes, some need the comfort (crutch?) of a belief that even if they die some mystical, magical supreme being will reward them. Some of us take responsibility for our own lives, do our best to live a good and honorable life, and then willingly accept that when it's over it's over.
As a practice christian I have to support equally our right to practice our faith, and as a American I will also equally support this man and any atheist that wishes to go to his event.
But with this being stated then can I stop having to listen to the whining because as a christian I wish to have the right to practice my faith without being ridiculed and harassed by atheist. So if they wish to take this step then they need to be willing to give the respect they are demanding.
How about people like me, who feel we have a right to not have to listen to Christians, whining about how good their God is over other faiths.
It's one big lie folks. God presides over all and s/he doesn't believe in religion.
Ever been on a plane going down? I have and can guarantee you there was not one single atheist on board. As a matter of fact I heard a lot of Jesus and God help me/us, but didn't hear one person call out for Buddha or any other religious names.
Realist: I've been on a plane that was being very violently tossed in a storm to the point of people breaking bones and the story being on the evening news nationally (dunno if that counts as "going down" in your book); I heard some gasps and "Oh!" but I didn't hear anybody call out to anyone. Most people sat quietly waiting for whatever would happen. My guess is that some of them were probably praying. I'm not sure what that means: if you're correct and no atheist ever clings to his/her ideas up until death (which I highly doubt), then you must acknowledge that God lets planeloads of people who believe in Him down when their planes crash.
As a retired veteran of more than 21 years (13 of which was at Ft Bragg) and a person who tries to accept people for who and what they are, I think that Ft Bragg was correct in their call here. The military has personnel of all religious beliefs, and they should all be provided for in the same manner and allowed the opportunity to profess this in an equal environment. The base set a standard when they allowed Billy Graham (whom I actually question in his faith) to hold an event there, and now they must provide the same opportunity for other faiths, or lack there of. As a Christian, I feel for these souls as their lack of faith leads them in to believing that all you have is this life and that's it. I myself would feel even worse than I do, as I see what goes on, on a day-to-day basis in our world, and believing that when I finally do die, that I'm hoping to reach a true paradise, that is free from all the ill ways of this world and offers more than this world can ever hope to. But, this is their belief and as our Constitution provides Freedom of Religion. One shouldn't pass judgement on those who view things differently. Who am I to pass judgement on others? If I'm not mistaken, there is only one true, all knowing judge. All these people who think they are so much better for going to church and saying they are Christians and not practicing their faith in all they do on a daily basis. There are by far to many people who profess to be religious and are nothing but a bunch of hypocrites. At least these people aren't claiming to be someone they're not.
Yes and there are bases that have done things such as designating an area and allowing the construction of prayer circles for earth centered religions and given religious accomodations to groups of Free Thinkers.
Baby, the great American death mantra isn't about mythology but about excrement. "Oh S@#t" is the thought that is on the lips or in the minds of more people going under the wheels than any other.
That being said - Rock on with whatever belief system that works for you. For me it is - "In dog I trust." I have a Labrador Retriever so you who understand and appreciate the breed will understand.
I understand this guys strong sense of justice per se . He wants to have his fifteen minutes of fame to say he has held the great American Army to his standard. He is in control not the Army, this is nothing but a control issue on the part of this little guy. He needs to show that justice needs to be done and on his terms and when he says and how it done. I got quite a bit of thatlanguage while in boot camp now it his turn. Army stand straight give me twenty, it is so ridiculus and people want to raise this "concern" of this little guy to a higher level when it is not. This is not about faith or not having faith or people showing their love of God this has everything to do with the little guys demand for his way, I can bet my bottom dollar that this little guy has shown a pattern of this behavior all his life. It my way or I telling. It is so disgusting that folks like him take advantage of our wonderful country and demand that the country and not the majority bends over and takes it up the you know what. little guy that is just what you are and always will be for the rest of your life unless you learn to rise above your childess ways. Shame on you and your tic for tac behavior. Frankly, I am so dang sick of people in America and around the world doing the tic for tac crap. well so and so did this or said that so I demand that I too get to do or say what ever it is. Grow the hell up.
So you feel secure in dismissing every possible motive for this person's efforts except the worst? Quite a stretch to believe you know so much about this soldier without ever even having met him; perhaps your telepathic abilities could be used as a new secret weapon for our military. You sound very bitter about people who may have different beliefs than yourself. America is *wonderful* because we have freedom of speech and because people are equal under the law, despite their religion. The military should reflect those values just as it is doing in this instance, to their great credit. Exactly who is being childish here? Judge not, lest ye be judged.
We'll stop ridiculing you when you stop with the death threats and hypocrisy. Deal?
Branxoz, as a retired veteran myself (over 20 years Active Duty Army) I can assure you that there are indeed atheists in foxholes. I have been involved in a theatre of combat, under fire, and never felt the need/desire to pray to a mythical being. During my time in service I also knew many other atheists who honorably served. Your denial of atheists in foxholes only demonstrates your ignorance and unwillingness to recognize the contributions of others.
For your education and enlightenment, here is a listing of atheists who have served, or are currently serving, in the United States Military. These individuals have willingly published their names on the Military Association of Atheists & Freethinkers website ().
How does this guy getting equal treatment for HIS little party equal "the majority taking it up the you-know-what?" The fact that he is allowed to have a concert/festival just like the Christians had a concert/festival is equivalent to the majority taking it up the you-know-what? Nope, sorry, just not seeing the logic.
Pine,
That was a great post, and it summed my feelings up exactly. I left the Army two years ago as a First Sergeant having seen my share of the "in your face, First Sergeant, you have to do this for me" attitude that riled me from this youngest generation. All of these kids were E-4 and below. What rubs me the wrong way about these "soldiers" is the very snarky way that they are doing it. This E-5 is certainly no NCO, because he is not a team player, and he's setting a great example for all future barracks lawyers.
daisy hill ( satan ) you don't have to listen to anything you don't want to but that does not mean everyone has to follow your lead. wear ear plugs if you don't want to listen to something or someone.
Realist, I could not have said it better myself and you are speaking the truth.
dsclsa ( or whatever ), I don't believe you. they probably were praying and I have watched true stories on " the learning channel " it was called I think on a show called " seconds from disaster " where the plane was going down and the pilot was screaming " Oh God " so i know people remember God in a moment like that and as for God letting the plane crash just remember one thing : we all have to die some day and there are different ways in which we will die, you won't just disappear as if using vanishing cream, only God knows how he will take us that is the reason people die in different ways. everybody who dies in a violent way ALWAYS remembers God , even aethiest.
greg, that makes you a hypocrite then because you are judging Christians and you are judging Billy Graham who is a Christian. I really doubt that you are one and I bet you do not live by God's word either I know I don't follow God's word that much either but at least I'm not claiming to be a Christian.
joe glen, WHAT A WEIRDO ! LOL !!!!
drgnrider, you talk like you are an aethiest the only thing is that you are not admitting it, i'm so sick and tired of hearing about those idiots
Sandra: and your "evidence" for your point of view is that you watched a TV show? EPIC FAIL.
Yay! I am fully aware (having been there myself) that non-believers can be disrespectful and are prone to mock believers and their imaginary friends. I was, as defined by the proponents of the conventional "master puppeteer in the sky" cosmology would have it, a foxhole atheist. Today I chafe at the term "atheist" because I most certainly believe in god - but the "god" I believe in is the highest ideals conceivable to an individual. This young sergeant obviously believes in the ideals and principles of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States of America and I applaud him for his courage in acting on them.
As for the chaplain and others who are upset I'd remind them of the etymology of the word "Hypocrite". It is a compound of two words from ancient Greek. The first, "hypo" means lower, or less-than. It is the prefix of such words as hypoglygemia, i.e. low blood sugar. The word from which the "crite" syllable is derived is the same word from which "critical" is derived. "Hypocrite", then, means one who is less than critical - particularly as regards one's professed values as opposed to those values one expresses in behavior. Persons, such as the outraged chaplain, fit the bill. He, as an officer in the U.S. Military, has taken an oath to honor and defend the Constitution. Denying religious freedom and equal protection before the law to that segment of the population that chooses logic and science over dogma and superstition is most certainly hypocritical of him!
I'm happy to see Ft Bragg has given this event the same priority as the previous one. There's no reason both philosophies can't coexist in the service; all it takes is a little mutual respect.
Respect? Oh hell, what am I saying? This is America....
There are an over-abundance of bible thumpers in the US military. I have been in the Army for 24 years and in that time, religious fundamentalism has become a very real issue. I am an Agnostic, I don't ascribe to any specific religion. I applaud the attempt to bring a little reality into the military community.
I am a little sick of Chaplains, and soldiers in leadership positions pushing their belief structures on those of us who don't see things the way they do.
Wordweevil,
I have been right there with you, and it is spilling into the political process as well. There are those out there who are saying that the US was founded on "Christian" beliefs and we need to "return" to our core "belief" system. A big reason I don't belong to the Republican party any longer is because of the misguided belief that we need to bring "Religion" back into our political system, which includes the military. I don't think so, let's be real about this, Rush Limbaugh was a member of the "Moral Majority" in the 90's, along with Newt Gingrich, whose "Family Values" went right out the window since both have the moral compasses of the Burmuda Triangle!!!
What we need is; INTEGRITY! RESPECT! HONOR! and LOYALTY! These are the MOST impprtant of the Army's values.
Duty, Selfless Service and Personal Courage are important as well, but we need to start with the four that a large number of Americans, in ploitics and in the military have lost sight of.
Atheism is just another religion on the landscape except this particular religion has as its primary dogma the attacking of all other religions as false, except islam. The reason for the islam exemption is they don't want their heads to be removed from their bodies.
Awesome post military man...... I too was in the military for twenty plus years and in those years the conservative religious began infiltrating the offices I worked in to the point where you felt that if you were not a church going bible thumper you were not going to get ahead. As usual though, these same oh so holier than thou bible thumpers did not live what they preached and could be some of the worst back stabbers in the world in their efforts to get ahead of everyone. Interestingly the one general I worked with that was the least offensive at pushing their beliefs on the staff was the mormon one.
Then too this is the same group that allowed politics into the military with nothing but derision and denigration about Clinton and now Obama so it was with no surprise that I have begun reading about junior military personnel getting into trouble about posting comments to facebook and other media outlets that very much violate our oaths and our USMJ. They are led by those that have done the same for the last thirty years vocally in the offices and on the fields. The youngsters....just like at home.....learn what they hear from their leaders/parents.
And wet willy......atheists and agnostics do not attack religions. They defend against being hounded by them. Religions do a pretty darn good job of attacking each other already. Just think......if we voted to declare the US a christian nation.....whose chrisitianity would be followed....catholic or protestant (the first did come before the latter after all). If protestant which sect of them? There are so many. Literal or interpretive. The choices go on and on and on. Then of course what about the jewish, the muslim, hindus, etc. Do we become like all the other theocracies and deny all religions but "the one true one" .... (did we decide which of those it would be yet) their ability to form and worship at will? Or will they have to have permits and be limited to certain places and numbers and the be harassed at every opportunity for not being members of that one true religion. Gosh, I can`t decide if that is the taliban, iranians or the communists I'm describing there.
What an entirely stupid thing to say! Atheism, by definition means NOT theistic - meaning that atheists do not believe in god at all. Use a dictionary or something and come back when you've finished your homework... because you got an "F" on your last comment. And where the hell did your "Islam" exception come from? Atheists in no way would prefer Islam to Christianity - both are make-believe as far as we are concerned. You may be really ignorant but my bet is you're purposely lying (just like all Republicans today) to insult atheists... typical nonsense.
Wet Willy...
Your portrayal of atheism (the absence of belief) as just another belief only demonstrates that you are unwilling to engage in a fact based discussion. But your reluctance to engage in a fact based discussion is understandable since you cannot point to a single fact to justify your belief.
But the real tragedy in what you are doing is demonstrating a willingness to judge others based on a fabricated caricature of what they actually are. If a person can judge others based on what's in their imagination rather than reality...then they can justify anything. We see it all the time from supposedly moral people. One doesn't need evidence or a trial. All one has to do is imagine that someone else is a terrorist...and all of a sudden water boarding them becomes acceptable. No facts required.
I don't usually use the word "atheist" myself. I prefer the term "normal." I mean, you don't call a person who doesn't believe in fairies and a-fairy-ist or a person who doesn't believe in Thor and a-Thor-ist.
Toasty for President!
Atheism is a religion like "Off" is a television station, "Bald" is a hair color, or "Abstinence" is a sex position. As for the assertion that atheists give a special exemption to Islam, it's patently false; atheists are harshly skeptical of Islam, just as we are of Christianity, Judaism, and every other organization that attempts to pass off fairy tales as truth with which to control people. Read some Dawkins.
I cant believe I find myself agreeing with Toasty. I might pass out...
Atheism certainly meets the definition of religion.
Religion: 1) A cause, principal, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
2) a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects
3) a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe
For myself, I'm agnostic. I used to be religious, but then I found God.
Military of all branches are lousy with Christianity and they brook no opposition easily. I can't imagine how difficult it's been for this solider to be open about his non-belief. No doubt it's been very difficult for him. Good for him for prevailing that not everyone believes in something. Atheism surely isn't a religion, it's a philosophy. But I'm tired of having religion crammed down my throat, as if you aren't fit be a human in open society by not believing in god. Don't believe, realized as an adult that I never have really believed. It makes no sense at all. I go with science every time.
rrobeson: uh, no. All three definitions fail miserably to describe atheism. It is, by its very definition, the absence of the things posited by each of those three definitions. It is a philosophical stance but by no meaningful definition is it a religion.
rrobeson:Perhaps you should have looked up the definition of atheism instead:
atheism: disbelief in the existence of God or deities
-Bing
Atheism is not a belief system. Do you see the difference now?
Pat Robertson
This man claims to have conversations with "God"--and I don't mean by praying. Why, on a religious program, would a man of "God" wish another injury over a damned football game?
"And you just ask yourself, OK, so Peyton Manning was a tremendous MVP quarterback, but he's been injured. If that injury comes back, Denver will find itself without a quarterback. And in my opinion, it would serve them right," he said.
Pat Robertson "The 700 Club"
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/Pat-Robertson-says-Peyton-Manning-Denver-Broncos-deserve-injury-over-Tim-Tebow-snub-032212
Do you people understand what drives people away from religion? I've read people ramble on using "nuke em", supporting torture of another human being, making racial remarks. In other posts some of the exact people claim to be "Christians."
Keep it out of the face of others.
Kelsy,
atheists and agnostics do not attack religions. They defend against being hounded by them
Sorry, but you're either a lousy liar or you are woefully ignorant. There are MANY among the atheist and agnostic groups who mock, denigrate and belittle religions. Trying to claim otherwise is to try and ignore reality.
Just look at a bunch of the atheist posts on here, openly mocking religious beliefs of others with comments like "I don't believe in fairy tales" and "the great puppeteer in the sky". This your idea of not attacking religion?? Seriously? Supposedly atheists believe in reason and logic, and yet these kinds of comments are nothing more than the self-righteous, I'm smarter than you are rhetoric of the emotionally self-centered and petty.
Please get a clue will you?
And please explain what religions "hound" atheists and agnostics. I've never been "hounded" by a religion in my life and it's no secret that I'm an agnostic. I have had many discussions with religious types and the vast majority of them have been polite and respectful.
Save the melodramatic bs for the stage will you?
The problem with a LOT of atheists is that they are NO better than the people they disagree with, but they believe they are. How sad.
Mocking, denigrating, and belittling aren't "attacking." Urging people to outgrow fairy tales isn't an attack.
I myself have no problem with non-believers. In truth I feel sorry for them. They on the hand never spare a moment to ridicule those of us who DO Believe.
This man seems to feel paranoid about the Chaplains who help and sometimes convert his fellow service men. Yes, the Chaplains are there for guidance, but they can also help those who may be questioning their beliefs, or feeling doubts. Why does that bother him?
The show they are planning on putting on is fine. My only problem would be them Insulting those not at the party for their beliefs.
Someday, they will come to understand what true believers have always known.
I respect Sgt. Griffith's right to express his position regarding his disbelief in a higher power. And, if he and others want to gather to celebrate their disbelief so be it. Atheism is not Satanism. Please do not confuse the two.
I am sure that there are many Atheists that live by standards just as high as those of the Ten Commandments set forth by my higher power. And I believe that each of us is created with a free will. Thus what we do with that free will is our business and our birthright.
Thank you Sgt. Griffith for your willingness to protect my right to express my belief in a higher power. I will ask my God to bless you and your fellow Atheists.
sandtrich - Not exactly on the same topic, but very related - Maybe i'm not the only one that believes it is just plain dumb to think that a supreme diety cares about the outcome of a sporting event? The religious thank yous post TD in football drive me nuts - because I'm sure a supreme diety would think that player "x" deserves the TD more so than player "y" in a given game. *sigh*
Wizard of wisdom--you've never been hounded by the religious? You've had polite and respectful conversations? Where do you live, as I want to move there (well, unless you are lying).
Atheists do not, as a group, mock other religions. Individual atheists might--but one isn't responsible for that. The comments that you refer to are not necessarily attacks on religion--they say "I don't believe in fairy tales." That's a statement of personal belief.
While it is true that many individuals tend to get nasty--it is in response to the nastiness that is given to them. Let me give you an example--an atheist family moved into the panhandle of Oklahoma. Within weeks, the daughter was expelled from school for the year . . . I don't know what the bogus charge was. The next year, she didn't even last a week--she was expelled for "stealing" someone's gym shoes, which had mysteriously shown up in her locker.
Why would the child steal gym shoes? Why does anyone think that the locker (the combination of which could be found out by anyone who had access to office records) had only items that she had put there? Why would a child be expelled, for a full year, for a pair of gym shoes?
It's a petty example, but it's one you can look up. A person who is an atheist living in the Bible Belt is continuously hounded the same way a black person living in a white community is or a white person living in a mostly black community. When one has to deal with such nastiness, one tends to become nasty in return. I wouldn't call it self-centered, but I would call it a defensive reaction.
Move to a place where, if you tell people you are agnostic, you will get your car keyed, your child will get harrassed in school, and you will lose your job. Enjoy.
Wow. I wonder just what sort of units some of you served in. In all my 23 years of service, never that I recall did anyone approach me regarding my religion or lack of same. I do recall while serving in Korea, walking out of the Officers Mess, a Col asked me if I would like to join him and go to church in the village that nite. I did. no more was ever said. I suppose the Military has changed far more than I realized. I can only say, Im proud my service is over.
wizard of wisdom, i agree that people attack religion. if you can say what you BELIEVE why can't i tell you i BELIEVE you're an idiot for it?
as for being hounded, if i wanted to belong to a church how would you think i would go about that? wait for someone to come to my house, interrupt my dinner wanting to talk for 20 minutes about being saved and then get info on where there church is or just go find one myself?
as for being better than christians, did i agree to and preach a moral code that i supposedly follow? if i never claimed to be a moral person then i'm not being hypocritical for not being one.
Atheism is just another religion on the landscape except this particular religion has as its primary dogma the attacking of all other religions as false, except islam. The reason for the islam exemption is they don't want their heads to be removed from their bodies.
O rly? Islam is false. Followers of this faith are just as deluded as Christians.
We just don't "attack" Islam as much as Christianity because there is not a huge Islamic population here. Most people in the US are Christians.
Not hounded by religious fanatics? I get almost weekly visits from JW's, Mormons, Baptists, etc. trying to convert me so I don't go to hell when I die.
I wish atheism was a religion, I'd open up a church and get to stop paying taxes.
Not to rain on anybody's parades here folks, but I spent 25 years in the U.S. Navy and never EVER had any religion crammed down my throat, didn't effect any promotion and can't say that I was ever approached by an evangelical, nope, not in 25 years. Went from 3 years at the DMZ in Vietnam to the South Pole to Winter-Over and then to NBG-1 and BMU-1 in Coronado, CA., and the U.S.S. GRAY (FF-1054) and retired in 1989 off of the U.S.S. LEWIS B. PULLER (FFG-23). So I think saying the military is cramming Christianity down everybody's throat is a little dramatic. Mike RICE RMCS(E-8) U.S. NAVY (Retired)
This is simply not true.
1) Atheism doesn't have a set of beliefs held with "faith". The one and only thing that all Atheist agree on is the non existence of a god. Beyond that each atheist lives their lives according to their own moral compass.
2) There is no fundamental set of beliefs that atheist believe in, as stated above the only thing that all agree on is that there is no god, which is the absence of belief.
3) I cannot speak for all atheist, but I follow science on this one. I'm not a scientist myself, and I have not spent a lot of time studying the nature of the universe outside of a classroom, however, when someone who has tells me that science proves a specific path of evolution, I choose to listen. This is not a religion, it is listening to those who know what they are talking about based on facts, not faith.
@The Wizard of Wisdom: You are right that there are those who are atheist who will attack religion, though most of them I know don't. Yes I will tell anyone who ask me that I think religion is a bunch of fairy tales and that I feel anyone who believes in an imaginary figure who controls their destiny or cares how they live their life is fooling themselves. That is not me attacking religion, that is simply me stating what I know to be true based on facts that have been put in front of me. That said, you are free to believe in whatever you wish and to worship whatever you wish however you choose.
That is the difference between most atheist and most religious zelots. We will tell you that we disagree with you, however, not disturb you while you worship or try to force our beliefs on you. Religions will tell you that they disagree with you, tell you exactly why you are wrong and the horrors that will occur to you if you don't change, label you a bad person and morally bankrupt if you don't believe, and at times even physically attack those who believe differently.
As for which religions "hound". I grew up in So. IL and I can't remember a single day that I didn't have someone telling me why I should believe in God and accept Jesus as my Christ and Savior. Or have someone telling me that I was going to burn in hell because I didn't believe that a man rose from the dead after dieing for my sins. What I faced was mild, simply people trying to "convert" me to their beliefs; I have heard stories about much worse happening to non believers right here in the U.S. when they are discovered, but I can't confirm the veracity of the stories so who knows maybe it is just people trying to force others to believe as they do here.
That said you only need to look very briefly through news articles to see violence that has erupted around the world for centuries because of people of different faiths trying to force their faith on others. That is what I mean when I say that they "hound" you.
Any "Out" nonbeliever that hasn't encountered an extreme degree of harrassment from the religious should be thanking their lucky stars that they live in a tolerant geographical area. I have the good fortune to live in one such area now, where the reaction to my atheism is usually a shrug and a "that's interesting," but growing up in a small town and having spent three years in rural Texas certainly opened my eyes to the violence, hatred, and mob mentality of the extremely religious. I have been physically attacked, I have had my property vandalized, I have been verbally abused, I have had it affect my work, my friendships, and my relationships. I've been told by most, in these circumstances, that it's my just punishment for my disbelief, and that if I refused to convert that I deserved to burn in incomprehensible agony for all eternity.
Atheists may be a little rude and disrespectful from time to time, but we sure as hell don't have anything along those lines in our arsenal. Christians that complain about the "bigotry" they experience really come off as the worst sort of whiners. Sorry, but being told that your sacred stories are "fairy tales" - particularly when there is literally nothing, other than your baseless affirmation in your belief in them, that you can show that differentiates your stories from fairy tales - isn't quite in the same league.
Good 'on ya, Sgt Griffith! Now that's what I call courage! Going up against the tyranny of the majority who confuse religious zealotry and evangelizing with patriotism and Americanism? Priceless.
sandtrich:
YOU WROTE: "This man (meaning Pat Robertson of the 700 club) claims to have conversations with "God"--and I don't mean by praying. Why, on a religious program, would a man of 'God' wish another injury over a damned football game?"
THEN YOU INCLUDED THIS QUOTE FROM PAT ROBERTSON HIMSELF: "And you just ask yourself, OK, so Peyton Manning was a tremendous MVP quarterback, but he's been injured. If that injury comes back, Denver will find itself without a quarterback. And in my opinion, it would serve them right."
MY RESPONSE: First of all, I'm NOT a fan of Pat Robertson; I've seen one or two of his telecasts, which didn't impress me. So, I'm NOT interested in defending him per se.
That being said, your reading comprehension skills are totally lacking. Nowhere did Pat Robertson say he WISHED THAT PEYTON MANNING WOULD GET INJURED. That's just a fantasy you invented in order to vent your hatred for that televangelist (I guess that's what Mr. Robertson calls himself).
The truth is that Pat Robertson thinks the Denver Broncos treated Tim Tebow badly by trading him to the New York Jets despite Tebow's stellar contribution towards getting Denver into the playoffs and then beating the defending AFC Champion Pittsburgh Steelers in the first round. That was quite an astounding accomplishment for the then struggling Bronco's. Everyone knows that. Pat Robertson was critical of Denver because he knew that IF (and he did say "IF") Peyton Manning got hurt this season, Tim Tebow (who salvaged last season for the Bronco's) would be gone. Then Robertson concluded that would serve Denver right; in other words, when the Denver Bronco's (or anyone else for that matter) treats someone badly, it could come back to haunt them. Or, as the old adage says, "You reap what you sow."
Once again, Pat Robertson NEVER SAID THAT HE WISHED PEYTON MANNING WOULD GET INJURED. You and your anti-religion bigoted friends just spend too much time searching for hateful accusations to spew about people you don't like. Try reading the entire news article about that episode posted yesterday or the day before on msnbc. But this time try reading that article with objectivity and reason rather than with bigoted hatred clamoring for an outlet.
Same here, 30 years in the Army and never saw anything such as what was described above.
Then you should open up your own Free Thinkers church, I mean coven, make that cult, I mean club. Oh what the heckever they are they get non-profit status.
Kelcy 2.5
You say that atheists don't attack religions but rather defend against being hounded by them. If that's so, why is it that the atheists demand displays of their beliefs next to Christian displays during Christmas. Seems like an attack to me.
It would seem that if atheists, as you say, want little to do with religion, they would avoid any Christmas or other religions displays or celebrations, but they don't. I might add that Christmas is as much a secular holiday as a religious one.
Wait a min, religious fundamentalism being/become a problem in the US military? Conservatives wanting to bring Christianity into the military? Wouldn’t that mean the military was full of (or run by) Christian soldiers? Wouldn’t that mean Christians are bombing and killing women and children? (a crime only associated to Muslims in the public mind) wouldn’t that make the military as bad as the Taliban?
Oh what tangled webs we weave
If atheists do not want prayers in the foxhole kindly step out an excuse yourself in lieu of scoffing. I don't push Christianity on anyone..if they choose not to believe..fine by me. But don't go knocking me due to my beliefs and I will honor the same ideal for you. Why protest..just don't read, go to church, don't pray it is your right as it is mine to do what I want in religion. Ever hear of freedom of religion?
Wet Willy
Why do christians insist on displays of their religion in my neighborhood. Perhaps I am offended by this. Telling me that if I don't start praying I go to hell...that's a real attack. As for the holidays, sure celebrate them, get the day off and spend it with your family. Christmas is a nice holiday, as long as you keep Jesus out of it! (Well, not really, it's a nice story until the messy part at the end, so we can keep Jesus there for those who like that sort of thing)
JustDe: Just fyi, there is NO biblical sanction whatsoever for the celebration of Christmas and no historical record of its celebration in the early Christian church (Holy Week was their big thing back then). With the exception of the creche, all the symbols commonly associated with Christmas (trees, elves, reindeer, etc.) are Pagan in origin.
Ferrosynthesis 2.37
It seems in your haste to be offended by the presence of Christmas displays you avoid the fact that it is a federal holiday, and you have every right to not partake in any Christmas activities but you are in the minority. Yes, I agree with you that Christmas is a nice holiday and the beauty of the holiday is that with its religious and secular aspects, it should accommodate pretty much everyone.
If you prefer Santa to Christ, it's your prerogative and that's fine as long as you keep the spirit of the holiday and refrain from attacks on those that believe otherwise. There should be grounds for both to co-exist in harmony.
P.S. It's springtime, why are we talking about Christmas?
Ah--a defender of Tebow and calling his performance stellar with a 28th rank of starting quarterbacks with a QB rating of 79 and a 46.5% completion rate, sacked 33 times. All this in a package for $5M+ a year? He's unorthodox and will never be more than a religious poster child. You really don't understand the NFL, do you?
It would serve Denver and Manning right if Manning is injured--was the words of Robertson.
Many authors on this forum claim that religion is a "fairy tale" or resort to using other derogatory/condescending insults, as if their atheism is scientific thinking of the highest order.
But I can base my arguments for the existence of God strictly on science, logic, and common sense. While the existence of God cannot be proven scientifically in a laboratory, there are enough clues for me to conclude that God exists beyond a reasonable doubt. For example, the existence of God is clearly indicated by an honest examination of the Argument from Design, two Laws of Thermodynamics, the Law of Cause and Effect, the Law of Biogenesis, clues from the Fossil Record, the Existence of Conscience, and the Wisdom of the Ages. These arguments collectively provide enough of a starting point to rightly conclude that a Higher Being of some kind exists. There's not enough room on this thread to discuss each of the above clues in detail, but they sure have nothing to do with "fantasy."
Anyway, let me raise this intriguing thought: There are no laws of physics stating that spirits don’t exist and cannot be eternal. But there are laws of physics (the first two Laws of Thermodynamics, for example) stating that MATTER AND ENERGY CANNOT COME INTO EXISTENCE FROM NOTHING OR BE ETERNAL. So, if I must decide whether God (a spirit) always existed or matter and energy always existed, I’m choosing God because that’s the only alternative science has left me.
Or, consider this: which is more reasonable - that the universe is the product of a living, intelligent Creator? Or that it arose simply by itself by chance from a nonliving source without intelligent direction? In other words, is it reasonable to believe that NOTHING working on behalf of NOTHING through NOTHING for NOTHING created EVERYTHING? How sensible is that? That notion is more ludicrous than any belief in God.
We've also got to wonder where all the laws of physics and mathematics, which govern the universe, came from in the first place. Those laws had to predate every material substance and every associated process that brought the universe into existence and made it what it is today. In addition, those laws are so complex that scientists have been studying them for millennia, but still don’t fully comprehend them. I think that’s also where a spiritual Supreme Being (God) comes into play, because some sort of incredibly intelligent mind had to create the laws that govern our universe. And those laws did not evolve; they apply to the past just as they apply to the present and will apply to the future because without this belief, science would be impossible. So where did these laws come from? Did they just pop out of thin air? The atheists and secular scientists have no adequate explanation.
I contend that the most plausible explanation for the existence of the laws of physics and mathematics is that they originated from an incomprehensibly intelligent Creator, a spiritual being we call God. In fact, here's what Richard Feynman, a Nobel Prize winner for quantum electrodynamics, said about the topic: "Why nature is mathematical is a mystery...The fact that there are rules at all is a kind of miracle." Long before that, Galileo opined the following about mathematics: "Mathematics is the language in which God has written the universe."
Finally, my common sense and religion tell me that God created the universe. My science tells me how He did it.
Wet Willy #2.34
"why is it that the atheists demand displays of their beliefs next to Christian displays during Christmas. Seems like an attack to me."
What atheist displays of their belief?
An empty lot?
Actually, it is a pagan holiday co-opted by "Christians".
Heh, something tells me that would be the worst idea in the long, sad history of bad ideas...
After 20 yrs in the Air Force, I don't remember anything overtly religious being crammed down my throat either. There was a tendency to have an opening prayer at official functions, but I just waited patiently until it was over. No big deal.
Everyday. You are so full of crap. As for someone knocking on your door, when you open the door tell them to go away and not come back. I will say this though. At least that have the balls to talk to face to face instead of bashing someone on a forum like this.
Ferro, if you are so offended by Christian decorations in your neighborhood, I have one suggestion. MOVE!!!! This country was founded upon Freedom of Religion. If you are looking for Freedom FROM Religion..then I would suggest you form your own neighborhood with people who believe (Or not) as you do.
Religious groups and various nationalities have been doing that exact thing for centuries. Irish section of Boston, Chinatown in NY, etc.
RhondaLuck: Your understanding of physics is quite poor. Newton's laws say absolutely NOTHING about matter coming into existence; they merely describe the behavior of existing matter/energy. We know from quantum physics (information Newton did not have) that subatomic particles by the trillion come into and go out of existence every second in every grain of sand; this is particularly important to contemporary understanding of Newton's second law, as--contrary to what Newton believed--pockets of energy/matter can remain concentrated at the subatomic level and don't disperse to maximum entropy as he believed. The laws didn't just "pop out of thin air" as you put it; they are the product of human observation of phenomena and the "discovery" of each and every one of them can be precisely dated. Your amazement at the existence of mathematical and physical laws is somewhat naive. Most atomic physicists these days subscribe to one or another of the "multiverse" theories which posit other "universes" where the mathematical/physical laws differ from ours; the ones we know only apply to our universe and we only know of them because we've observed them.
I quote from your post above: "Or, consider this: which is more reasonable - that the universe is the product of a living, intelligent Creator? Or that it arose simply by itself by chance from a nonliving source without intelligent direction? In other words, is it reasonable to believe that NOTHING working on behalf of NOTHING through NOTHING for NOTHING created EVERYTHING? How sensible is that? That notion is more ludicrous than any belief in God." If you are unwilling to believe that the universe arose by itself by chance from a nonliving source, why do you expect me to believe that God--much more complex than the universe--arose by Himself from a nonliving source? Oh, God has "just always been there"? OK, then it's much simpler for me to believe that the universe has "just always been there," as it is less complex than God.
Wet Willy,
The defense against religion is a bit more complicated than is being presented by most atheists in these responses. The atheist may be 1)responding to an individual theist (who they believe has overstepped their bounds) 2)Government favored/sponsored Theism/superstition 3)Theism/superstition in general, which the atheist insists is nothing more than an attack on reason.
You are correct however in that if initiated at the individual level, with no larger aim, they are simply attacks. There are in most cases no need to respond to the individual theist. Thomas Jefferson is quoted as saying "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg". However, having said that, the big push these days is to eliminate "any" religious or susperstitious influence from government, science or elsewhere. Most thoughtful agitation by atheists are appeals to return to what Jefferson espoused in the above quote. In those thoughtful confrontations the attack may appear to be directed at the nearest theist but it is not. It is actually directed at the government or those people who support favored status by government.
Some want to simply harass the religious, as you point out by annoying or mocking display builders at christmas. Others are trying to make the point that our government is violating the first amendment, which says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion". To nitpick, that's congress but in their eyes it's all part of the same battle when even a local government grants favored status to a religious group.
The third aim, countering Theism/superstition itself is also difficult to discern when confrontation is generated. Without stronger expression of their aim, such as disseminating literature or even conversation this goal can go unnoticed. That's usually when the charges that "atheism is a religion" comes up. It seems as if they're trying to achieve some goal or institute some belief system when in fact they are usually just trying to get people to think critically. St. Augustine may have thought reason to be the enemy of religion but most people today use it in most every area of their lives, with the possible exception of religion.
Also, if "Christmas" were as much of an inoffensive secular holiday there would not be as bit a snit generated whenever a store tried to say "seasons greeting" or something similar. To a non-christian it makes as much sense to celebrate friendship and family to the constant background drone about "Thetanmas".
"It would seem that if atheists, as you say, want little to do with religion, they would avoid any Christmas or other religions displays or celebrations, but they don't. I might add that Christmas is as much a secular holiday as a religious one."
Well done, Willy! Asked and answered in the same paragraph. And you are correct! Christmas Is a Secular holiday - an American holiday, if you will, which we should All be "allowed" to participate in equally. Now, if perhaps Other holidays were actually recognized and celebrated (i.e., with the Day Off, etc.), perhaps we'd just abandon Christmas and have our own, but since this is the holiday we get, so be it. I love Christmas, and I'm gonna celebrate it the way I want, and I won't give it up just because you might think I should. Peace.
I agree with the majority of veterans on here. Religion may be prevalent in the military, but never was it crammed down my throat or forced on me. It did get annoying to always have to listen to opening prayers at official functions, but I just stood there and waited for them to be done.
It was also more than annoying though to have "Christians" pop up all of a sudden when you were in the field and they would get to go to church on Sundays. Funny as you lived next to them and they NEVER went to church unless it was a ticket out of the field.
I am actually shocked Fort Bragg allowed the first Christian concert. Figured that wold be something they would let happen in Fayetteville to avoid any issues either way.
Atheism is a religion like sex is a form of birth control.
sandtrich:
I'm betting that most NFL coaches and franchises would rather have a division winning team that made it to the playoffs largely with the help of a developing quarterback and beat the defending AFC Champions than have a losing team run by a quarterback with outstanding statistics. Didn't the late great Vince Lombardi once say "Winning isn't everything; it's the only thing." You really don't understand the NFL, do you?
Also, you are being dishonest with the Pat Robertson quote you just posted. Here is the word-for-word quote in TODAY'S msnbc news article: "
"The Denver Broncos treated him shabbily," Robertson said on "The 700 Club"..."He won seven games, he brought them [Denver] into the playoffs, for heaven sakes. I mean, they were a nothing team. He rallied them together with spectacular last-minute passes and, you know, when they beat Buffalo — I mean, Pittsburgh, excuse me — it was a tremendous victory...And you just ask yourself, OK, so Peyton Manning was a tremendous MVP quarterback, but he's been injured. If that injury comes back, Denver will find itself without a quarterback. And in my opinion, it would serve them right."
For the umpteenth time, Pat Robertson did NOT say that he wished Peyton Manning would get hurt. That's just some fantasy you dreamed up. Robertson really said that Denver treating Tim Tebow badly may come back to haunt them (the "reap what you sow" analogy).
Oh, by the way, I'm not defending Tim Tebow although I think he's a great man. I'm really a fan of the Pittsburgh Steelers, which Tebow defeated in the playoffs. Go peddle your hate somewhere else.
Not once did I see anyone leave the field to go to church. The chaplains came to us and worked around our schedule. Sometimes there were cases where Soldiers would have to go to a central location such as a company CP or combat trains location, but that was the extent of it.
Well, since you said so.
I was at Polk, Lewis, Knox, Jackson and Vilseck, all where it happened.
Back at you.
I think that it is very odd that they would do that. Vilseck makes sense I guess, we only went there twice in 5 years and most nights everyone was back cantonment area anyways.
Great posts, Rhonda. from another Steelers fan. ☺
I can ASSURE you that this guy was BEGGING FOR GOD to SAVE him, while he was in the "foxhole" I spent 20 years in the Military, NUMEROUS front line combat tours. There are NO "atheists" in front line combat...False bravado here, NOTHING ELSE...
branox: so the other vets on this thread who said they saw guys dying in combat moaning "Oh sh!t" or "Oh f@ck" but not "Oh God" were lying??
I can't help but wonder why one of Wet Willy's comments was collapsed. He didn't use bad language, and made a good point, although, not a point that would be liked by atheists. Atheists can't seem to stand being called down for their constant attacks on religion. By the way, atheists do have their own holiday so they can quit complaining about Christmas. They have April Fools Day.
When I went into the Air Force in the 60's I was told I had to put a religion on my dogtags, can't recall the exact wording but I felt it was something of a threat.
xvet
I spent 20+ years in the military and I can tell you exactly why he feels that way. If you express doubt in the "accepted version of an all mighty" you are ridiculed, excluded and made to feel isolated. This comes from the command level down. Religion is about control. Many of us do not have a desire to be controlled, not by a Chaplain, and not by a mythical deity. If your believe in a "supreme being" gives you comfort then my attitude is "whatever gets you through the night", but don't shove him down my throat!
Rhonda wrote:
But I can base my arguments for the existence of God strictly on science, logic, and common sense. While the existence of God cannot be proven scientifically in a laboratory, there are enough clues for me to conclude that God exists beyond a reasonable doubt. For example, the existence of God is clearly indicated by an honest examination of the Argument from Design, two Laws of Thermodynamics, the Law of Cause and Effect, the Law of Biogenesis, clues from the Fossil Record, the Existence of Conscience, and the Wisdom of the Ages. These arguments collectively provide enough of a starting point to rightly conclude that a Higher Being of some kind exists. There's not enough room on this thread to discuss each of the above clues in detail, but they sure have nothing to do with "fantasy."
Let me add this; The famed scientist, Einstein believed that all the laws of physics had been put in place by a God he referred to as "The Supreme Scientist"
- ""There are those out there who are saying that the US was founded on "Christian" beliefs...""
Yeah right..... I assume the same Christians who stole, tortured and killed the Native Americans. The same ones who applaude "The Indian Removal Act" law.
OldMan121: If you are seriously suggesting that Einstein be the final word on matters of cosmology/creation, then you must reject Jesus Christ as Einstein was (gasp!) a Jew.
Dslca:
YOU WROTE: “Newton’s laws say absolutely NOTHING about matter coming into existence; they merely describe the behavior of existing matter/energy. We know from quantum physics (information newton did not have) that subatomic particles by the trillion come into and go out of existence every second in every grain of sand…”
MY RESPONSE: The First Law of Thermodynamics is stated as follows: matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed.
Matter and energy can only be transformed from one form to another. For example, matter can be converted from solid to liquid to gas to plasma and back again. Energy such as sunlight can be converted to heat or matter (photosynthesis), and energy from fossil fuel can be converted into electricity. But matter and energy cannot be created from nothing or completely destroyed. That concept may be difficult for the average person to understand. But for our purposes in this discussion, the First Law of Thermodynamics simply says that “nothing comes from nothing” in the material world. So, all who state that the universe came into existence by itself from nothing violate the First Law of Thermodynamics.
The Second Law of Thermodynamics is best summarized by saying that everything moves toward disorder, or a condition known as entropy. If water being heated on a stove is at 150 degrees Fahrenheit, and the burner is turned off, the temperature will drop instead of rise. It will move toward colder rather than hotter (a loss of energy called “heat death”). If a ball is placed on a hill, it will always roll downhill and never uphill. Energy used to perform any particular task changes from usable energy to unusable in the performance of that task. It will always go from a higher energy level to a lower energy level where less and less energy is available for use. Albert Einstein called the Second Law of Thermodynamics “the premier law of science” upon which all other processes are based.
The fact that the universe is winding down, or moving towards disorder, is self-evident in a myriad of ways right here on earth. Our daily experiences tell us that things can only move to a state of increased complexity with the addition of controlled energy and intelligent guidance, such as when we turn a pile of bricks into a building. Natural processes will do the opposite – tear buildings down, not build them up. The same is true for life in general. Mistakes and extinctions are happening all around us, whereas new life forms are not developing; life is heading in the direction of increasing disorder. This means there must have been more order in the past. So, where did the original state of extreme high order originate? The most sensible path of reasoning leads to God!
When applied to the entire universe, the Second Law of Thermodynamics indicates that everything is winding down, i.e. moving toward disorder or entropy, not winding up or moving toward more perfect order and structure. Like a top or a yo-yo, the universe must have been “wound up” at some point in time. Since the universe is constantly winding down, the Second Law of Thermodynamics looms before us in the form of a great question: Who or what wound it up? Once again, the most plausible answer is God!
Regarding your claim that trillions of subatomic particles come into and out of existence all the time doesn’t mean they come into existence from nothing. Besides, where did you think all the complex laws of physics and mathematics which govern these processes came from? Did they magically appear out of thin air? You never answered that question.
According to quantum physics, at the very smallest scales, spacetime is constantly producing and destroying extremely low-mass particles called “virtual particles.” Sometimes non-believers will argue that these particles demonstrate that something can come from nothing. But hopefully it is now clear that these particles do not show any such thing. Virtual particles are produced from spacetime – not from nothing.
Material objects require spacetime in order to exist. Any physical object has a location in space and time. So, in one sense, spacetime is like a grid with physical objects located within it. However, Einstein found that any physical object (mass) distorts the grid. Matter “bends” spacetime, and spacetime tells matter how to move.
Also, from a purely scientific view, it's possible to demonstrate that the universe cannot be eternal. As far as science knows, the universe is expanding from what appears to be a beginning point in space and time, and appears to be a one-time event. Another important clue about the state of the universe can be derived from a scientific understanding of hydrogen, which is the basic fuel powering all stars and other energy sources in space. Because this fuel has been used since the universe began, we know that eventually it will be depleted (The Second Law of Thermodynamics). In other words, the cosmological gas gauge is moving toward “empty,” which is a condition incompatible with an eternal universe. Even in an oscillating universe (one that goes through cycles of shrinking and expanding), things ultimately run out of energy and die. All of this evidence shows that the universe cannot be eternal, as some would like to believe.
And for those who require more technically-oriented proof that the universe isn’t eternal, consider this: the discovery of radium in 1898 by Madame Curie brought forth the knowledge that all radioactive elements continually give off radiation. Uranium has an atomic weight of 238.0. But as it decomposes, it attains a new weight of 226.0, which is when uranium becomes radium. Radium then decomposes until eventually the end product becomes a heavy inert element called lead. This takes a tremendous amount of time. While the process of uranium turning into radium is very long, radium turns into lead in only 1,590 years. That means there was a point in time when uranium could not have existed, because it always breaks down in a highly systematic, controlled way. It is not stable like lead or other elements. It breaks down. The only logical conclusion is that there had to be a specific moment in time when all radioactive elements came into existence. Remember, all of them—uranium, radium, thorium, radon, polonium, francium, protactinium and others - could not have existed forever. This represents measurable scientific proof that matter has not always existed!
So then, why is it valid to surmise that God always existed? The problem here is that many people have a mistaken concept of God. If we conceive God to be a physical, anthropomorphic (like man) being, the question of God’s origin is valid. However, such a concept of God is alien to common sense.
Obviously, the logical concept of God has to be that He is a spiritual entity. He exists outside of the three-dimensional material world we live in. In other words, He has to exist outside of time and matter because He created time and matter. And if He is the Creator of time and matter, He obviously was not created. God began the beginning! If God is a being that is unlimited in time, and if He has access to every piece of time as if it were now, the question of who created God is an invalid question. The problem is like asking a student to draw a four-sided triangle. The terminology is self-contradictory.
Explained in another way, if you ask where God came from, that is a tricky question because it sneaks in the false assumption that God came from somewhere and then asks where that might be. But the question itself doesn’t make sense. It’s like asking, “What does the color blue smell like?”…or “How much does the number seven weigh?” Blue is not in the category of things that have a smell, and seven is not in the category of things that can be weighed, so the question itself is flawed. In the same way, God is not in the category of things that are created or caused. God is uncreated and uncaused - He simply exists.
How do we know God is uncreated and uncaused? Well, we already know that “nothing comes from nothing” (First Law of Thermodynamics) in our material world. But material things do exist, so they had to come from somewhere. Therefore, something non-material had to have always been in existence so that material things could be brought into existence. The answer to this dilemma lies in the spiritual world: that ever-existing thing which brought material things into existence is what we call God (a spirit). God is the uncaused eternal Being that caused everything else to come into existence. God is the uncreated Creator who created the universe and everything in it.
Finally, what is the empirical evidence for oscillating and parallel and multiple universes that you mentioned? Actually, there isn’t any. Harvard astronomer Owen Gingerich seems to be the first to have noticed: anyone who can believe in multiple universes should have no problem believing in heaven and hell. Just think of them as alternate universes, operating outside space and time according to laws that are inoperative in our universe. This should be quite believable for one who holds that there are an infinite number of universes in which all quantum possibilities are realized.
Rhonda, the "God of the Gaps" theory's most prominent (but by no means only) flaw is that as we discover more about the universe, the god gets smaller.
Rhonda: you write "The First Law of Thermodynamics is stated as follows: matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed" as support for your contention that matter was created? HELLO! Logical contradiction.
As I pointed out earlier, the second law has been shown by quantum physics (postdating Einstein, so his opinion on the matter is not current) to be an inadequate explanation of subatomic phenomena.
You write, "Energy such as sunlight can be converted to heat or matter (photosynthesis)"; photosynthesis does not convert energy into matter, but merely stores it in the form of carbon bonds. Heat is a form of energy and thus doesn't need to be converted into energy. Matter is in essence a highly efficient form in which to store energy. Quantum physics accounts for the "creation" of "new" matter quite easily, thus your example about radioactive elements is discounted.
I did answer your question about where the laws of physics come from: human observation of the universe. And again, most physicists these days agree that those laws are different in different multiverses.
Religious thinkers as diverse as Kant and Kierkegaard and Augustine have conceded that one cannot construct a "rational" argument for the existence of God; everything we observe in the material universe can be accounted for without "magic" behind it. If one wants to believe in God, the grounds for that belief are faith, not evidence (the Bible states this quite clearly). Faith is a product of the "will" and not of "reason." I think one eductated in traditional conservative theology would say that trying to find "material evidence" of God's existence is a form of doubt, of "testing" God, of refusing to live by faith and God's grace.
Almost none of your constructs involving words like "therefore" adhere to the rules of logic. Again, I'd simply point out that if you claim "God is not in the category of things that are created or caused," I can just as logically claim this of the material universe.
Just a suggestion, when writing about scientific matters, drop your excessive use of the exclamation mark and italics; it doesn't add any persuasiveness to your argument and makes you look like a teenage girl writing in her diary: "Did you see that boy?!?!?!? He is SOOOOO cute!!!!!"
For you that wish to state that we are incorrect to call atheism a religion, I will have to respectfully disagree with you. On August 20, 2005 the supreme court ruled that as being totally against religion or anti-religious is every bit a religion as any other faith. So if you as a atheist or agnostic want to have you beliefs respected then could you quite acting like children and attacking everyone who has faith. I will support you right to not believe, are you willing to do the same? Sadly every time I deal with a atheist they are demanding we cater to their lack of faith but refuse to give me the same respect they demand.
@ A veteran...retired Navy mustang here 1987. You're right that during our service there was very little religious pressure. I suppose the worst was that during boot camp we either had to go to church on Sunday mornings or field day in the barracks. Religious folk, though, did get preferential treatment to a certain extent. If you wanted a 72 or even a 96 (Mike knows what that is. He's the one I'm talking to) to attend a religious event you pretty much always got it. If your reason was because you wanted to pick up a hooker and get drunk, chances were you were just laughed at.
But what "used to be" is beside the point. As a full time RVer and vendor at militay exchanges I spend more time on bases now than I did when I was active. And I gotta tell ya...the thumpers are taking over, or trying to. I sell products that serve many different religions, from mainstream to pagan/neo-pagan. And I've had threats of bodily harm if I didn't stop exercising my supreme court verified rights.
Guarantee you, though; atheists and pagans have NEVER threatened me for selling Christian items but Christians get very vocal about my non-Christain items. And I hear stories every day from young soldiers, airmen, and sailors about the pressure they are in to "convert!"
...did I miss something, because the last time that I checked... Fort Bragg was still in Fayetteville, North Carolina.
It's a miracle.
The difference would be that in the religous view, those two "universes" are places that your "soul" is sent to in punishment or reward for your time "served" in this universe vs. alternate universes that one theorizes might exist, but you aren't likely to ever visit or even be aware of.
Basically Rhonda, you are arguing about the origins of our universe prior to the theorized big bang and I don't think anyone can say what was or wasn't prior to that. However, I can say without a shadow of the doubt in my mind that there is nothing we know relative to physics that "proves" or even suggests Christianity/Islam/Judaism, etc. I generally classify myself as an agnostic because I don't see anything that proves or disproves "God" in the theoretical "pre-Big Bang." If I were going to be anything "religious" the best I could fall into is a Diest - i.e. the belief in something that created everything, but has been uninvolved ever sense. However, I have seen nothing to convince me that that is even inherrently logical - more likely it is a desire to foist a something "understandable" like our definition of "God" onto something that is likely not understandable to a creature living with our space and time.
Finally, I think the thing that most believers in organized religions can't seem to understand about the reactions Athiests (and to some extent Agnostics) have towards organized relgions is that the capricitiousness of the "God" typically described is illogical for a being capable of creating everything. Even more so, the thought that a being capable of creating everything could have the myopia to focus on us as individuals AND care about our individual morality is just... unbelievable. "God" would be to man as man is to an ant many, many many.... many, many, many times removed. Assuming I could create an ant from scratch, it would be kind of foolish of me to expect worship from an ant.
I did not imply that Einstein had the final word on anything. I just used him as an example of the fact that not all scientists are atheists. Many scientists are Christians, some are Muslims, and some are Buddhists. Speaking of which, many of those posting here are getting some very bad karma and risk being reincarnated as worms.
You know, I was gonna write a lengthy rebuttal to Rhonda Lucky's stupidity. Too much effort, too much stupid.
Instead, I just wanna say GO JUSTIN!
And, to all those who complain that atheists are finally getting a fair shake from the military (or, rather, a token gesture), go play in traffic.
He has rights also even though I don't share his beliefs. It will be interesting if and when he ever gets wounded. When I was wounded twice along with my fellow soldiers God seemed to be in our cries. Don't know if it helped but it certainly did not hurt. Not so sure I would want him in my foxhole though.
Yep, kudos to the guy for standing up for his rights and getting equal treatment.
However, he said, "The chaplain’s job is not to grow their flock, it’s their job to take tend to the existing flock." Apparently he doesn't know much about Christianity.
I am curious as to why you wouldn't want him in your foxhole. He seems to be a determined intelligent soldier, dedicated to the idea of equality for all. And it seems the last thing he would do is thrust his ideas upon others, as others have continuously imposed theirs upon him.
My son was blown up (ied) in Afghanistan and lived to tell. 3 others in his truck, not as lucky (he was the gunner, blown from turret). He was raised without religion and remains that way. I'm glad his buddies didnt feel the way you do.
i'll take the guy not praying in the foxhole with me cause he's focused mentally on fighting to stay alive, not praying to stay alive.
Yeh, sure, "god was in your cries." As in, "GODDAMM RAGHEAD HAJI SUMBITCH!" Or was it, "god bless the poor HONORABLE FOREIGN FIGHTER who misunderstands the invasion and occupation of their wonderful country?
NOTHING FAILS LIKE PRAYER!
Proud Mom-2645016 - please thank your son for his service and his sacrifice.
U.S. Navy, 1979-84
Sad thing about atheists is that since they don't believe in anything they have nothing to believe in. At the end of the day, laying in bed at night just before sleep comes...who is there. What a sad and lonely place. I am truley greatfull for what I have.
Bob - if you need to talk to an imaginary friend before you go to sleep every night, I'd say you probably have some pretty profound developmental delays.
sad thing about bob is since he believes, he has no choice what to believe. it's already decided for him.
See Chris, you just proved the point that most atheists exist to harass Christians and their faith as being illegitimate and without merit. For lack of a better word to "bully" others who believe in something greater than me, myself and I. Keep up the good work.
See it is not about faith or belief or religeon at all. It is about having someone to lash out at. Some one to vent anger and hate upon. It IS about closed minded thinking-will not even CONSIDER the existance of a conscous contact with a deity. And at the same time lable and condem those that have it. A wise man once said the concept to keep some one in evelasting ignorance...contempt prior to investigation. I do not know who or what hurt you people but wow. Sad.
bob, if you don't want people saying stuff about you then don't tell us why we're "sad". either grow up and take what you dish out or don't dish it out, baby. your religion is the epitome of close minded thinking. it sets out your rules to follow for you.
riley, if you don't want people to bash your religion then don't sit idly by while people bash atheists like bob did with his passive aggressive insult. clean your own backyard before complaining about mine.
I'm not an atheist. I believe in god (read Goddess). Christianity is a great religion...if it wasn't for the followers. Heaven forbid (kind of a pun intended) you believe in some other religion or god.
I've ran across more self righteous sanctimoniousness christian pricks in my time in the military Vs. atheists.
It always amazes me how the 95% of the world that believe in a god feel so "bullied" by the 5% that don't.
It's amazing how you hold on. Must be quite a lonely feeling having churches, temples, and mosques on almost every street corner on the planet. Try as I might, I can't find a single atheist meeting house anywhere.
It always amazes me how the 95% of the world that believe in a god feel so "bullied" by the 5% that don't.
Ever hear of the IGNORANT MASSES ?? Well there's your 95% and the other 5% of us are the intelligent elite.... the educated, the free thinkers, those who live their lives and make their decisions based on LOGIC, REASON, FACTS and EVIDENCE. If I were you I'd be EMBARRASSED to be included in that 95% ( and really it's LESS than 80%) of ignorant, closed-minded, hateful, bigoted, self-righteous sheeple who haven't a CLUE how to think for themselves and have to rely on primitive fairytales, superstition and supernatural imaginary friends to map out every step of their pathetic lives. Even sadder that the "religious sheeple" act not only out of IGNORANCE but also fear of punishment and guilt the illusionary "reward" of a mythical "heaven".
TheRealChris,
It's called The Unitarian Universalist Church. It's for atheists & included Thomas Edison & Louisa May Alcott among it's congregation. As an atheist; I have no idea why it exists, but it does.
BobW-3215303
When I go to sleep I think about my future plans for life, not focusing on the life after death. Sometimes I think about who I am as a person, being kind, being generous.
riley-1759556 generalize much? Most Atheists I know don't give religion another thought, of course until someone knocks on their door and once finding out they are Atheist the door knocker christian harasses them ,leave leaflets in their mail box continuously. That seems like bullying. The two groups should just leave each other alone.
Funny thing about religious people, they all believe they will go to heaven, but none of them want to die (not sure who that quote is derived from!)
Bob W- Don't be sad for me. I have a fantastic life without imaginary beings who dictate my life course. I do have faith. I have faith in myself, my husband, our marriage, our family, our abilities, and our accomplishments. I have faith in us that we work hard and earn and provide for our family, not that "he" provides for us. WE provide for us. When we accomplish something we know it is because we worked hard and earned it, not because some imaginary being "blessed" us with it. Growing up playing sports when I scored a goal I knew it was my hard work that scored that goal and I thanked no one for it but myself and my family/friends for their support. My favorite hypocrisy of religion is that they their god 1) has a plan for them that its in his hands 2) yet they pray for a certain outcome in events 3) then if they get it he blessed them and if they didn't 4) they werent meant to understand his plans. Its circular logic at worst. Either you can change the outcome by praying or you can't. At least pick a side so you're slightly less hypocritical.
I would rather have a passionate, intelligent, dedicated atheist in my foxhole than a hippocritical, ignorant, judgemental person "of faith" (supposedly). That is the problem with many christians and other religions-they are so ignorant that they are afraid of an atheist. An atheist is the LAST person that should cause you alarm. That is exactly why the atheist movement is speaking out- so people can learn. I am not an atheist, by the way.
sarg-1000124, some of us are stronger than most christians and we don't need to call out to any being for help when we are dying. I almost died from meningitis in 2002. They didn't think I would survive. I never prayed to any god. I never looked to any divine being for help. I put my trust in myself and I had the will to live without asking help from any mythical being.
I think the world would be a much better place if more people were like that.
BobW-3215303, we believe in OURSELVES and taking personal responsibility for the things we do and not blaming everything on a god to absolve us for our actions.
Impatient girl: Actually it's not. That would be like saying that you are in control of your life and not God. You don't pray to have God do things for you like he's a genie. You pray so that God can know your needs and let him make the decision for you. It's all about faith. In other words, trusting God with the details of your life.
For example in Christianity, Christ gave up his life for you, you are to return the favor and give up your life for his purpose. Anyone who doesn't know that shows just how little they know about Christ.
I don't feel "bullied" by Non-believers. It just always makes me laugh when they latch onto any religious site to ridicule those who do believe. Who are they trying to convince? themselves?
I feel sorry for them. My husband who is also military was MIA for 6weeks some years back. I prayed and prayed. In the end, when I was one of very few who believed he was still alive, he was found. I thank God and the blessings of Jesus for keeping him safe.
For those of you who have never "Felt" the Grace of God, I am sorry.
We know god takes sides in football games, does he take sides in wars too?
Unhappy - for those of us that believe in some degree of self-reliance it sounds a LOT like circular logic. I'll also point out that your statement:
goes against the tenets of God being omniscient. Based on omniscience, he'd already know your needs...
You could potentially try to argue that you are letting God know that you know what he knows about what you know (yes, I intentionally wrote it that way), but that also seeems contradicted by omniscience. He'd also be knowledgeable of your self awareness.
With regard to:
The logic of Christianity is that God created man in his image with the free will to commit sin, but commanded him not to sin even though he knows that man will sin since he is omniscient. Then because man sinned, God invested a woman with the spirit of himself so that he could be born as a man so that he could be killed by a man so that he could die for man and be resurected as as third part of himself so that man's sins can be forgiven and man won't have to suffer eternal damnation. <-- That sounds inherriently logical to a person of Christian faith, but to others it sounds like circular logic / illogical and/or mythology.
I'll also note that the Christian logic that Christ gave up his life for man seems a little ambiguous considering the claim of the resurection? What exactly did Christ give up - mortal life? Seems like not much of a trade if the net result was eternal life in "Heaven." Was the real issue the extended torture on the cross? By description, that is a pretty damn horrible way to go, but how does that compare to slow death from burns or bleeding out from a shark bite?
Yeah I know what you are thinking now - I'm being a jerk / deliberately argumentative. However, here's my real point - contrary to the argument that some of us don't know that much about Christianity - some of us actually are quite well read about Christianity and find it inherrently illogical as communicated from the average pulpit. I can't prove/disprove that Christ lived or died for my sins any more than I can prove that I existed yesterday - some existential things do indeed require "faith." However, if I'm going to believe in something I'm going to try and believe in something that seems at least somewhat logical / plausible to me.
rcsdinthehills - During times when your life continuing is being contested by somebody as determined on surviving as yourself you don't have time to think much less decide who you do or don't want in your foxhole with you. All you want to do, and have those with you do, is pump as much lead in the direction of where those tracers coming at you are originating as possible to stop them. Only after that do you catch your breath and look in the eyes of those there with you and you don't have to say a word. The appreciation and love in the eyes is all you need. No matter what religion or no religion or race or color or creed or sexual orientation, when someone fights for their life alongside you you are bonded forever after. Peace.
Unhappy-1583758
Every believer I've ever known prayed and asked their god for things like he was Santa Claus. You claiming you never have is very difficult to believe. "Save us from this ____." "Give us strength to get through this ____." "Help me find a way to pay these bills/get this job." "Heal him/her or dont let them suffer anymore." Its all about asking for an outcome that you want.
I have one issue with your assessment of why you pray, okay two. First, my understanding was that God was supposed to be omnipotent. All powerful and all knowing, if that is the case why do you need to pray for God to know what your needs are?
Second, and really the more important one (the first is meant to be a bit sarcastic) my understanding is that prayer is not meant to be to ask God for what you need at all. I have studied Christianity extensively, even giving it a shot for a while as a teen after being harassed to convert for years, and the understanding I was given was the the Bible indicates that prayer is meant to praise God and his son Jesus Christ and to thank them for what they have provided. The issue of course is that so called Christians today seem to think that it is all about asking God for things they want/need. Please show me the Bible verse that indicates that you should pray to God for things you want/need. I am aware that the Bible states that God will provide for you in abundance for believers, but that is something that will supposedly happen for all believers not something that must be prayed for.
I am sure that most Christians truly are living their lives according to what they feel is the right path, and as far as I am concerned as long as they don't push their beliefs on me that is fine. But don't tell claim to be the judge of knowledge about Christianity while at the same time claiming that you need to tell God what your needs are, you just look like a fool.
Janine-1645002
I agree no one should be judging you for your beliefs, you seem strong in your beliefs and it is good to see someone sticking to them.
However, and please take this in the gentle manner I mean, in your statement that you "feel sorry" for non-believers is the equivalent of ridiculing them for their lack of belief. It comes across as condescending.
This is a two way street no one should be judging you for what you believe and you should not be judging others (and that included feeling sorry for them) on theirs.
To put it simple if you judge others then you really have no recourse to complain when others judge you. Kind of like don't judge least you be judged :).
burn the bible!
it's a religion of blood!
Bill-2766329- you might want to work on that reading comprehension just a little bit. I do NOT pray. I am an Atheist. I was referring to almost every believer I've ever encountered praying and wishing for the outcome they want. Go back and reread it. You are the one that looks like a fool. You attributed that quoted text to me and Unhappy-1583758 wrote it.
Sarg-1000124, I'm extremely confused about why would you not want him in a foxhole with you. Will your god be less likely to protect you if he's in there with you? Or do you think the more xians in there praying to your god, the more likely you are to be safe? Do the soldiers who get killed in foxholes (literal or figurative) not pray hard enough? I truly don't understand this comment.
i see a great number of athesists making fun of christians here...why? If you don't agree why try to convince them that they are wrong? I doubt any of you are omnipitent as you act that you are all knowing, why be condesending to christians...leave em alone. I don't push my religion, I am a Christian, on you...now let's how many jump on the band wagon and knock me...bet it will a lot of you condesending people
Unhappy~~ Is your name trying to tell us something? Seriously. Your statement that people pray to let God know what they need is ridicules. God is all knowing right? You need not speak to have your 'needs' known by God.
Oh ya. One more thing, Christ didn't give his life up so everyone would be obligated to follow him. According to the written 'word' (or whatever you want to call it) he did it to prove to Satan than Man can serve God perfectly in an imperfect world as Adam failed.
Then again, maybe your last statement is so true to more than you mock. Think about, no, know about what you're talking about before you spew that crap.
justredd64-
You many not push your religion on people, but many many do.
I see many athesists pushing non belief to everyone on here now.
@Janine --- so if God brought your husband back alive from a POW camp then how do you explain all of the POW's who were prayed for fervently by their loved ones and never returned. If your Christian God is so powerful, why doesn't he simply grow back the limbs of disabled veterans who have been wounded in Christian Americas wars of belligerence and vengeance? You can turn me from an atheist to a believer if I saw ONE certifiable miracle like that!!!
Try getting an education - learn to think pragmatically - learn to justify your decisions and beliefs in a mathematically correct manner. Until then you have no credibility in discussions with people who have been to combat - like me - have been wounded - like me - amd have witnessed the abuse of other human beings by Christians all over the world - like me.
Pilot1~ You should have just stopped with your first Paragraph. Who are you to tell anyone they aren't qualified to have a feeling or belief and then share that on an open forum like this. Your last statement just disgusts me! Where do you even come off saying that unless someone joined into a combat situation, became wounded and then witnessed abuse by Christians as being one without credibility. You asked Janine to get an education. Ditto Bro!
The Unitarian Universalist Church welcomes people of all beliefs.
There are seven principles which Unitarian Universalist congregations affirm and promote:
Pilot...thank you for your service to our country. While you are right in that I have never served in combat, My husband has, and my son is also military. I am thankful that my son has never been injured, but my husband has, on a few occasions. While I wasn't there when he was injured, I see the results of them on his body, and in his eyes.
I find it sad that you feel the need to ridicule people who don't believe as you do. I realize that religious fanatics all over the world have abused and murdered those who don't believe as they do. The Christians weren't the first, and they certainly be the last.
God gave us free will. He will not stop all of the anguish that we ourselves create. We all have had our times of grief.
For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't, no proof will ever be enough.
Well Sarg...that's a nice story and if it helped you ... great. I was an Army Medic for 10 years and a Paramedic for 8 and I'm here to tell you...god never once helped me with CPR. God never once stopped the bleeding or eased the pain (unless you count death). I'm glad your beliefs helped you through your injuries but those beliefs never once helped me tend to the wounded.
Christians have been pushing their religion down peoples throats since 325 AD. They send missionaries all over the world to sew the seeds of unworthiness, sin and doubt into cultures that were far better off without it. They have raped, tortured and murdered many who would not subscribe to their beliefs and waged war on entire civilizations in the name of their God.
So much for religion.
Janine - your statement is self contradictory --- there IS no proof for what you believe - but there is MASSIVE amounts of proof that what you believe simply works of fiction. Most of the attributes attributed to your favorite icon - the Jewish zombie Jesus - are pasteurized from pagan religions that existed 1000 to 5000 years before Jesus was a twinkle in Josephs eyes. Why is it that when stories of walking on water, turning water in to wine, fishes and loaves falling from the sky, healing the blind with spit, having twelve disciples, arising from the dead and being born of a virgin mother are all considered mythological beliefs of bronze age pagans. Yet when those same attributes are assigned to your Jesus character they are somehow proof of the existence of god and are now FACTS!
Quit believing in bronze age mythology designed to soothe the emotions of people who died from tooth decay and dirty water in a time when wooden wheeled donkey carts were high technology. But more importantly - Quit trying to convince the rest of us who are mature enough to not believe in child hood fairy tales that you know the "truth" about something and that if we could only see the light we would be able to live forever in a spirit world where only people who believe in and practice your cultist behavior will go.
There are a lot of post stating that atheist don't mock or try to convince you that you are wrong to believein an Religion, but end up showing just the opposite. I find it funny that they complain about Religous people do the same thing but they are being hounded. There isn't any real scintific evedince that so called "Darwinism" is true. Sorry I am going to jump to another thought here. Even the soldier in the article is a hypocrite, he was the biggest opponent of the Christian event when he says he should be allowed to put together one of his own.
Yes, I belive Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savoir, and no I don't care if you do or not. We are all given the Gift of Free Choice.
thinkabout: your statement "There isn't any real sci[e]ntific ev[i]dence that so[-]called 'Darwinism' is true" is simply factually inaccurate. And I have no idea why you think it is "so-called" Darwinism; Darwinism IS what it's called.
@Impatient Girl, I understand that. I was quoting unhappy, your name just happened to be in his post.
Think-about-it. That's as stupid as saying there isnt any "scientific evidence" that you're not a child molester.
What makes your religious beliefs any more true than the hundreds of religious beliefs out there?
annie, you are wrong about Christians imposing their beliefs on others no one puts a gun to your head, oh but the aethiest are trying to impose their denial about God on us but i will not let them or anyone like you do that to me.
proud mom, that is because God was not ready to take him.
hatr- hurter, the guy has no power, when God is ready to take him or any of us there will not be anything that he or we or i will be able to do anything about it.
bill, i don't believe you when you say you studied Christianity extensively, i think you are talking out your tailpipe. if you really studied God then you would have become a Christian but you talk about studying extensively as if you were studying geography or math or something like that and as for people forcing you to be a Christian, did someone point a gun to your head ? your hate for God is obvious maybe being a devil worshiper would suit you and a lot of non believers very well.
manoah, you sound like you are a satan worshiper.
red sailor, just listen to yourself i mean you are talking out your behind. tell me the name of the Christians who murdered in the name of God, i think what you are trying to say is the fanatical muslims that kill you if you ridicule allah and their religion, you have your information all wrong you are very confused. btw did any Christian point a gun to your head to make you believe in God ? all you idiots that say that Christians force their religion on them, it is not about religion it is about living the way God wants us to so unless they put a gun to your head then no one is forcing you to do anything, GEEZ.
SANDRA - your post's are so stupid I am having a hard time replying, but I will. Its not considered murder if the act is done in God's name seeing how murder is a sin, so no, red sailor cannot give you a name of Christian that "murders" in the name of God. Now if we were to say which Christians "killed others" in Gods name, all I need to do is point out the Crusades or the Spanish Inquisition.
I.... can't.... make .... sense... of.... anything.... you... write ... harvest fire
As someone who grew up outside of Fort Bragg I think anything the soldiers do to lift their spirits is a plus.
I hope his event gets a huge turnout. I'd like to see Griffith as a speaker at the Reason Rally on the Washington DC mall on Saturday March 24, 2012!
That event was blatant disregard for the Constitution and everything this country stands for? Where is the fallout? Taxpayer money to fund Evangelical recruitment?? Seriously?
Well of course it tramples the constitution! The very same constitution that were written on pages of the bible to ensure God was in every stroke of the pen.
I love how "freedom of religion" to people like their chaplain actually means, "The country must become a theocracy and all athiests must be supressed." How constitutional!
Does that include the Quran and Jewish Torah not OT whom Thomas Jefferson also used as a reference?
Except this country wasn't founded under Christian ideals.
I think it's wonderful that this young man is standing up for those who do not subscribe to organized religion. The expression 'There are no atheists in foxholes' always strikes me as offensive; also the idea that irreligious people are immoral really offends me. i hope he gets a terrific turnout and kudos to the army base for standing by its word.
Having been in submarines during life and death crisis, there were plenty of atheists, christians, bhudists, and moslems there at the time. We had no chaplain.
i never got that statement either. it would seem in a life or death situation you wouldn't want rationality to go out the window.
There are athiests in foxholes. They have the words "NO PREF" on their dog tags.
I rejected the military's option of having "NO PREF" (no preference) on my dog tags because I certainly DO have a preference: atheism!
But at the same time, I didn't want to advertise my belief system to those religious nuts who might discriminate against me. Ultimately I was able to have a blank line on my dog tags instead of any religion or "NO PREF."
"I have never seen the slightest scientific proof of the religious ideas of heaven and hell, of future life for individuals, or of a personal God."
– Thomas Edison
“Organized religion is violent, irrational, intolerant, allied to racism, tribalism, and bigotry, invested in ignorance and hostile to free inquiry, contemptuous of women and coercive toward children.”
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything
I had no idea that one's religion was listed on their dog tags. Learn something new every day.
emily, it's so they know how to treat the body. religions have specific rituals to follow for the dead.
Yes, it has been for a long time Ms. Emily.
It was a delimma for Jewish members of the Military in WWII.
Here are a couple of articles you might find interesting:
http://www.nola.com/military/index.ssf/2010/11/exhibit_sheds_light_on_the_pli.html
http://www.nytimes.com/1994/06/22/opinion/l-in-world-war-ii-many-jewish-gi-s-left-religion-off-dog-tags-470333.html
I hope there won't be protesters at the event.
impatient, i don't think the military would allow protestors but i bet there would be if they did.
Good point.
impatient girl-
You sound like a self centered narcisscist to me.
Prattling about how awful it is that people think that the talents they are given them by the creator and when things don't come true to their liking, that is somehow bad. Yes, when things go well, we are BLESSED. when things don't go so well, we know that God will make a way for us . It does not make us sit on our laurels and do nothing, but we know that HE is on our side and wants what is best for us. I have found through the years that God has blessed my efforts despite myself, and it even though things don't work out I know God is with us.
You hae a pretty convoluted view of those that do believe, and it reveals your self centeredness.
i would say that the person who thinks god will make a way for them is the narcissist.
See Davsie. I didn't even get that from Impatient Girl. She sounds pretty hot to me. Each man there own I guess.
nar·cis·sist
[nahr-suh-sist] Show IPA
noun
1.
a person who is overly self-involved, and often vain and selfish.
2.
Psychoanalysis . a person who suffers from narcissism, deriving erotic gratification from admiration of his or her own physical or mental attributes.
Just on the face of it, I know that God loves every single human being, and he causes through the creation all of us to be blessed, or cursed, one way or another. We are all given talents and and a set of cards to work with, and I choose my cards to help others, make family and God first, and put the pursuit of stuff below those things. If that is narcissism then you have the strangest idea of what the word is. Sometimes the way God makes for us is not the thing we envisioned in the first place. We make mistakes and things don't work out the way we would like.
However, the plethora of atheist types that think that they know enough that God cannot possibly exist just floors me, and many of you are just self centered high and mighty people that when challenged, just resort to calling believers "stupid" or make assertions that Jesus could never existed , so on , and so on. Accomplishment is fine, but when we attribute it to just ourselves without a creator that really does care about mankind, you reduce yourselves to animals at the top of the food chain. It is a brief existence on this earth and I have to believe there is more.
I would rather believe in the God of Christ that really cared enough about me to do what he did on earth - a very powerful thing that is asserted, and give that a chance to work in my life to help others and love my neighbor and God at the same time, then to focus inwardly to what I think is right and good, when He has already stated that and puts in in our hearts if let it happen. That is the opposite of narcissism.
Does anyone ever wonder what the dinosaurs believed?
Or to put it another way, the Bible gives a history of at most 5 to 10K years for a planet whose history is 4.5 billion years geologically with a cyanobacteria dating 3.5 billion years ago in the fossil record and a 200,000 year fossil record for modern humans. Somehow it is hard to take a religion that portrays a story of creation, but ignores the fossil record.... (I'm going to just ignore the estimated age of the universe). We know from the fossil record that man has existed for at least 200,000 years, but he waited until 2,000 years ago to present us with Christianity? Seems odd...
Why?
I don't "reduce" us to animals at the top of the food chain; I elevate us to that status.
Well if an eye for an eye was good enough for 198K years, why change it?
WAY TO GO, JUSTIN!
You sound like an organizational guru with iron guts; the type of person any organization should be proud to be associated with.
I retired from the Army in 1993 as a helicopter test pilot, and I can assure you that, thankfully, god was never my co-pilot. Talented aviators were.
And by the way, I still have my dog tags and they state that I am an AGNOSTIC.
Good fortune to you and your event; I'm certain it will be highly successful!
Dontbe: Jesus specifically rejected the "eye for an eye" moral sytem, which dates back perhaps five thousand years, not 198,000 years.
If people figure out there might not be a heaven, they might not want to go die killing all those wrong thinking peasants. There is a reason so many soldiers come from the bible belt. Keep em stupid is the military's secret motto.
Desktop, I really have to take exception to your view of those who serve in the military as being deficient in intelligence. My son is a linguist in the Air Force - he went in speaking English & fluent German, has since learned Korean, Arabic & Somali - not languages stupid people are going to be adept at picking up. Aside from the fact that he has a genius IQ, is preternaturally skilled at devising tactics, he also is an agnostic. My husband and I are both Christians and he was exposed to religious education growing up - he made the decision on what to believe when he was in his teens and we supported his right to do so. If the base allowed a faith based concert, it should afford equal opportunity for non-faith based events. By maintaining the balance it keeps from violating anyone's religious freedom - the freedom to believe or NOT as one choses. Isn't that what we're fighting for?
Couldn't agree more! The concept of heaven cheapens life on earth, one I believe to be the only one we get. This "reward" they keep indoctrinating people with tends to make human life a little less meaningful.
desktop - this is uncalled for ! There is no need to call people from the Biblebelt "stupid." You owe a lot to them for going into war to protect you. They get their strength and inspiration from the Bible; that does not make them "stupid." You are part of the fascist thought police ,which sours the dialogue between religious and non-religious citizens. You really should apologize.
@Desktop, I see that you have some truth in your statement.
If all the "keep them stupid" soldiers are from the bible belt, and have christian views, that would explain why we appear to be the only superpower left in the world.
However, the fact is, the soldiers that serve in the various branches are more diverse than a parade in San Francisco. There are as many from New York and California as there are from Tennesee, Arkansas, and Alabama.
I'd say 90% of those that serve are proud to have been able to serve. 10% Thought they would get an easy job because their buddy said we clean the motorpool every day, and smoke weed on weekends. That 10% is quickly "weeded" out.
If you have not served Desktop, you might want to do some research with those that have, and find out, They are not going into battle to die because of their belief in Heaven, They are going into battle because of their belief to protect your FREEDOM.
Desktop, I do believe you hit the nail right on the head. A combat soldier is supposed to obey orders without question. People raised with religion already have training in obedience.
PatMinFL, You have every reason and right to be proud of your son, I sure would be if he was my son. But ask him sometime if he thinks the USA fights for freedom anymore or not, it should be a interesting conversation.
Good comment.
PatMinFL...having spent nearly 22 years in the Army...I generally agree with your criticism of desktop. However...as in most things...there is a grain of truth in what desktop and others are saying. Organized religion does train people to "believe" rather than trust the available facts...and in life and death situations that can be dangerous.
But it is also true that the ever increasing expense of college, and the corporate war on middle class jobs, has produced a society with dwindling opportunities for young people. In such an environment, the military is not such a bad option. I think I can safely say that I'm a much better man in many respects for my time in the military.
And let me also say that if more people, religious and otherwise, demonstrated your tolerance of different beliefs...the world would be a far better place. When approached by someone with different beliefs...some people view it as a threat...others view it as an opportunity to learn.
Dizzycat & Nightwalker- My husband was in the Navy for 20 years and my younger son also went into the Navy. Does my son believe we're fighting for Freedom? Absolutely - freedom from fear mostly. We have had some very interesting conversations regarding the missions he's flown (highly abbreviated accounts since most of what he does is classified). He believes that the basics of American life are more than worth fighting for, mostly he wishes the politicians would take a stance he could believe in more. He views the USA as the last bastion against the barbarian hordes of intolerance - as he's told me repeatedly, if more people coud see the way other people in the world are foprced to live by governments that respect neither their human rights or the rule of law, they'd be a great deal more grateful for the blessings, however flawed, of the USA. We have faults, but so far we haven't descended into the internicine warfare that's tearing apart other parts of the world. MOstly because the men & women in our military are willing to lay it all on the line even for people who can't understand that willingness.
Mr. R : I do believe you had expressed by points exactly. I really could not have said it better myself.
Desktop you are all talk no go. Ignorance is a lack of education...you most likely fit the shoe!
LOVE IT!!!!
So do I!!
Annie 13
Betcha never been there!!
Tell it to Pat Tillman. Atheist hero who died in Afghanistan
Read the account of Tillman. Hardly a hero. Just a volunteer who died tragically in friendly fire.
as much of a hero as anyone. gave up millions of dollars playing a GAME to go fight for his country. he died doing so, which makes him a hero.
I've been around death enough to know that it doesn't make me want to believe in God or an afterlife. This is what I mean by offensive. It's like we don't really know what we feel, but everyone else does; that underneath it all, when push comes to shove, we all believe. Well I don't and you nor anyone else has the right to doubt my word on it.
Pat Tillman was absolutely a hero, and you, Jeff, are a pahtetic miscreant.
Been there: lots of Atheists were. The most common dying words I heard in years of combat were "Ah @!$%#", followed by "I'm hit" and not uncommon calls for Mom. I never heard any guy cry out for Jesus. But this was Vietnam before the Born Again Christers began the bible thumping conversion of the military, which is a coercive environment.
I'm impressed with the progress that has been made in the USA. If the Army can grow up and support this event, then I have to put them up a few more notches on my respect level. Thanks Army and thanks Sgt. Justin Griffith.
Griffith said he has received "bizarre death threats"... Doesn't surprise me...Religious people are some of the most hateful and dangerous people. Just look at the two recent events in Europe. The Christian killer in Norway and the Muslim killer in France....
An atheist has never killed anyone?
Has an atheist ever killed anyone because it was a perfect expression of god's will?
“A religious person is a dangerous person. He may not become a thief or a murderer, but he is liable to become a nuisance. He carries with him many foolish and harmful superstitions, and he is possessed with the notion that it is his duty to give these superstitions to others. That is what makes trouble. Nothing is so worthless as superstition. . . .”
— Marilla M. Ricker, "Science Against Creeds,"
...so...you're an ape child or wha? goin to wipe out the 3rd world?
darwin...what an eggplant~*
justde, the underlying theme of peace and love you mention is foolish since there have been so many WARS fought in god's name. you say giving knowledge when it's not, it's forcing a belief on someone else because it is not asked for nor wanted by most. if they wanted your message they would come to your church.
JustDe, the underlying theme may well be love and peace, but the practical application of those tenets have been warped and mutated due to human nature over the millenia. You can deny it all you want, but we are the reason why religion will never really work. Once we take those basic tenets, which I agree are good in nature and meant to help mankind, and people start to put them into practice, they inevitably get screwed up because of how they are interpreted by people that don't really have that love and peace in their hearts, and just want to use it to further their own personal agenda. Also, basing your life on a two thousand year old book and then trying to force or coerce those that don't agree with you into believeing the same as you is not respectful. Sorry, but I truly believe there is no benefit to believing in any organized religion.
harvest fire banned, re-reg of ~m~(O)~r~phine Carnival.
jbspeakz and (p)ink slip MORPHINE CARNIVAL, also banned.
but, but, banning him is just atheist extremism...............
/sarcasm
JustDe...
Scott M said it pretty well. Another way to put it is...religion is like a gun. It's not inherently good or bad...it's what it's used for that makes it good or bad. A religious person who sees religion as a calling to help others (think Mother Theresa) is probably as good and moral a person as will ever exist. And then we have people like Pat Robertson who claim to be religious, but appear to be far more interested in political power than morality...having actually said on a "religious show" that our government should assassinate the leader of another country.
When people are proud of the fact that a US company is engraving Bible verses on sniper scopes used in the Middle East...isn't it time to ask if, at least for some people, the Crusades are ongoing?
B. Todd: Wasn't she the one who married her husband for money? She was 23 and her husband was like 56. So I guess the lesson from her life is not to marry for love but for greed. Common faults amongst atheists then, huh?
I would not look to her for her definition of morality.
how exactly can you be a hardcore atheist? i believe there's no god more than you do!!!
By being adamant that Christians or Muslims cannot control your freedoms.
i thought that was implied by being atheist which is a direct rejection of those religion's ideals.
Minority Mandate - open your eyes and look around this world. Which countries have the most freedom ?
1. China - atheists; 2. Saudi Arabia - Moslem; 3. USA - still majority Christian- freedom from the beginning.
So, will you repeat your statement or did you think it over ?
out in the woods, if christians had their way we wouldn't be free but rather be forced to follow their religion's rules. they keep trying to pass laws that force everyone to do as their religion says on different issues.
out in the woods - China is not a true atheist country. Millions of Chinese practice traditional religions.
out in the woods
Here are some facts (see below) to base your argument on, it would appear you are lost-in-the-woods with your argument. Note this is not a bash against religion just a correction of the suggesting religion is a marker for freedoms.
5 Least religious countries: Sweden, Vietnam, Denmark, Norway, and Japan
5 countries with the most freedoms: Norway, Luxembourg, Liechtenstein, Finland, and Sweden.
5 Happiest Countries: Denmark, Finland, Norway, Sweden and the Netherlands
Good for Fort Bragg and good for this soldier. I am retired military. I spent a lot of time "explaining" why I didn't believe in god and even once was told by a military chaplain that I "had to believe in some kind of god". Nonsense. Most atheists don't try to push there ideals on others (unlike theists). We are not looking to recruit or sway anyone to our position. We don't really want to discuss religion unless it starts to infringe upon our rights as non-believers (such as the healthcare laws that are now being enacted to deny women access to birth control, abortions etc).
What atheist group has ever heped a charity?
Gee. I'm an atheist and a volunteer EMT. But, I'll still help you even though you imply I'm evil.
Didn't imply that at all. Answer my question!
They often donate to the Red Cross. No joke.
Mario, you are the joke. No organized atheist group has ever helped a charity.
I'm a volunteer EMT AND an atheist. Guess you think charities are confined to churches and that FREE MEDICAL care is not a charity. And here's a list of atheist charities
www.squidoo.com/Atheist-Charities
a simple google search for atheist charities will show you that there's dozens. many avoid the word "atheist" in their names due to the backlash we tend to face from oh-so-loving religious folk. athiest center for india has been around since the forties. other organizations are dedicated to assisting victims of religious conflicts.
I belong to a local Atheist group and they volunteer, as a group, at the food shelter and other charities. They also do community service, helping out where they can.
RummyTub, atheists do contribute to charities. As a matter of fact, they even start and run charities. For instance, I'm a vendor at an event this weekend where people are asked to contribute food to a food bank set up by atheists for ALL WHO ARE IN NEED, regardless of faith, which is a lot better than some religious-based charitable organizations, whose charities are set up only to help those who are members of their faith and no one else.
Most recently, a 17yo atheist raised over $10,000 for a secular charity called Responsible Charity.
#!/catholicschoolatheist
Also, the largest lending team on Kiva is the Atheists, Agnostics, Skeptics, Freethinkers, Secular Humanists and the Non-Religious, and was the first to reach $1 million in 2009.
Go to meetup.com and search for your local free-thinker group. These are atheist, secularist and agnostics. Most are small, have occasional meetings, and most have at least one charity event per year.
you all might as well stop. once he was proven wrong he decided not to return cause it would change it would show him that his prejudice was unfounded and he just can't have that.
rummy - ever hear of a guy named BILL GATES?
JustDe, look at any Mormon food storehouse. The food there is for tithing-paying Mormons and no one else. Just one example.
just like i could probably find a christian who isn't a judgemental loudmouth preacher who tries to convert everyone they meet.
Two issues ...
One, look for athiest charities here:
http://www.squidoo.com/Atheist-Charities
But, since proven wrong, it looks like "rummytub" has tucked his/her tail between his/her legs and scooted away.
However, I also must take issue with the no religious charity gives to the non-religious. While SOME may not, the majority of them do.
While I do agree that most religious charities do offer help to those outside of their particular brand, it's usually not "free". If you think about it, they're getting something in return by "spreading the word". I've been saying the same thing about missionaries for decades. Most view them as selfless, when they're really using charity as a tool for indoctrination. JMO.
JustDe,
The POINT I'm making is, if there are conditions, it's not charity. Atheists don't push their non-belief when doing charity work, they do it because they care and there are NO conditions. So now, which is the moral thing to do?
You do realize there's as much proof for your beliefs as there is for the existence of Superman and Batman, don't you?
No .. in the sources that I provided.
Some non religious charities for you, research is easy!
Lack of religion is not a religion, fools. Stop acting like a church.
BBQ isn't a church either, but we have a rib fest in town with music, speakers and good eats. I don't see how this is very different.
funny i thought lack of religion was christianity. well, at least that's how most of em practice their religion, by not doing anything it says.
ouch. Very good point, HATR_HURTER.
Squid, you sorta prove the point, don't you? You want everyone to share your beliefs, and you're getting angry because they don't. Perhaps you should practice the love and tolerance that Christ was trying to teach people.
You're assuming (incorrectly) that I'm not an atheist.
(also assuming that since I'm not an atheist, I must be Christian. ha!)
Good for the Sargent.
Anyone finding this story funny or gratifying that our military is being overrun by religious zealots should be very scared indeed. Given the mental disorders associated with evangelicals having them with access to firearms is not the best thing to do. The armed forces need to be as secular as possible otherwise this makes us no better than those we are fighting in Afghanistan. I think the Chaplin's that are "recruiting" should be given dishonorable discharges ASAP.
Grow up simpleton. As usual you make yourself out to be an ass.
“A religious person is a dangerous person. He may not become a thief or a murderer, but he is liable to become a nuisance. He carries with him many foolish and harmful superstitions, and he is possessed with the notion that it is his duty to give these superstitions to others. That is what makes trouble. Nothing is so worthless as superstition. . . .”
— Marilla M. Ricker, "Science Against Creeds,"
Hey B. Todd - you keep posting the same inane quotation. Have you ever thought for yourself or do you always let someone else do it for you?
Funny coming from the guy who takes his moral code from someone else's book.
No Josh, you're the funny one. Some people like B. Todd cannot respond from their mind. I'll bet you have a cute quotation to post as well.
Patently false. Morality is an offshoot of our evolutionary drives, and our ability to reason. There are abundant secular moral codes, such as golden rule, consequentialism, biological morality, objectivism, utilitarianism, etc.
Oh, and those all are far surperior to religious based morality.
justde, so no one was moral before religion was started? bull. if you have to look to religion in order to be moral that says alot about you.
rummy rummy rummy - instead of taking your brain out for exercise, you might try actually USING it as intended.
and for you justde - IF you need to have religion for morality, would any religion do? maybe the cult of Kali...
RummyTub
Hey B. Todd - you keep posting the same inane quotation. Have you ever thought for yourself or do you always let someone else do it for you?
that's hilariously hypocritical coming from someone who lives their life based on what a 2000 year old book tells them to do.
I declare SNAPPA, B. TODD, EngEsq, HATR_HURTER, and canary-in-the-coal-mine the winners in this competition.
it says you are not a good person on your own, you have to be told how to be one.
There is an amazing irony inherent in the practice of insulting people because you reject the basis for their moral code.
Moral behaviour is reinforced through social structure that promotes survival for the group. A dog when part of a pack will do "moral" things like running into a fire to save it's master. It's not because of god, but rather biology.
Because they rely upon logic and are not mere rules, but situationally dependent based upon solid doctrines. The bible says not to steal, but if you are starving and someone else is hording more food than they can eat, and it is litterally life and death, non-violent stealing of some small amount of food to survive is considered moral under my doctrines. In your bible the "right" thing is to starve and die. That's why they are superior.
All the atheists in the world are in for a rude awakening when our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ returns to gather his church. He does exist, he died on the cross to wash away the sins of the world. The end is drawing near and now is the time to repent and ask forgiveness. You are all being prayed for. Ugly and derrogatory comments to this post will only cause the Christians to be more persistent in the praying for your souls. Take heed, the wrath of God is real!
heather, so in order to get us to follow your beliefs you affer a threat of god's wrath? anytime you have to threaten people to get their follow your idea then it's a horrible one.
I'm not offering the wrath God. It's in the Bible...have you read it?
So Heather - what are we classified as if we believe in God, but do not believe in or condone the money grubbing, self-righteous attitudes, of all organized religions worldwide which would do harm - financial, social, or physical - in order to get you to believe their way is the only way?? Perhaps you could name one organized religion that strictly adheres to the tenents (sp) of a "loving God". If you tell me
Christian - there are a million (+ or-) examples where this is not true - the current proclamations by one "Right Rev" Pat Robertson et. al. being only the latest examples. When religion and politics mix, then religion has lost its way and its mission -- even though I personally believe God has NOT lost his way.
Celeyonn...we live in a imperfect world. You have to discern for yourself what is truly of God and what is of the devil. There is good and bad everywhere you look and everywhere you go. Pray for the gift of discernment.
i've read the bible and i've read comic books, they are very similar.
the bible isn't about my salvation? cause i know captain america stopping a nuke from going off in the US was about my salvation.
Praying for you all.
Scientifically speaking....no it does not. Morality comes from empathy.
When people do things that make others happy, their brain releases a hormone called oxytocin. When they are trusted or receive good deeds by a trustworthy person, their brain releases oxytocin. It is now being called the MORAL MOLECULE.
Think of how you feel when someone returns a lost wallet to you. That rush, that relief, that feeling of calm and total trust- OXYTOCIN.
When you are praised for being a good person or doing a good deed. That rush, that soaring feeling- OXYTOCIN.
Experiments have shown that even if you are not acknowledged for doing the good deed, your oxytocin levels still go up. You feel joy, calm, inner peace. Studies also show that people who have high levels of oxytocin ACT MORE EMPATHETICALLY and therefore make more decisions that help not harm others.
Conversely, when others hurt or we cause them to hurt, our oxytocin levels plummet. When you hurt others you actually do hurt yourself. We are hardwired biologically to be empthetic.
The only people who are immune to this proven, biological response are sociopaths and psychopaths or people with overly high levels of testosterone.
Other things that lower the MORAL MOLECULE in our brains and bodies: stress (think of how you act towards others when under pressure, it's probably with a lot less empathy) anger, fear, guilt. They release hormones like cortisol, testosterone and adrenline which impair the parts of the parts of the brain that deals with social/human cognition and empthy.
No thank you!
Luckily for you, you're not in for a rude awakening. Or any other kind.
No, I stated that they display what we could call a moral act against their own interest due to their evolution ingrained biology. Human's posess empathy as a result of evolving as highly social creatures.
Sure. People are starving here today, and we have plenty of christians around. Besides you are changing a very possible hypothetical in order to avoid acknowledging that dogmatic religious morality is deeply flawed.
RummyTub, You're suspended for a week for violating #1 of the Code of Honor - repeatedly.
Kudos to the Army for doing the right thing!! Go Army!!!!! Shame on the Chaplin for projecting his fear....
Good for this guy! I hope he gets a big, big turn out. Not because I believe in what he has to say, but because I do believe in freedom of speech but most of all from religion.
The horror it has inflected on the people of this planet since man made up religion is appalling.
People who burn churches because of their beliefs are just plain psychopaths and are looking to MAKE TROUBLE, nothing more.
~says the guy contributing to the incitement for discrimination against the faithful.
...it's part of the plan you know...pagens rise up in western culture to persecute~ might be ominous any other way...but now...not~
*~books come to life~* reading rainbow
keep up the mantra yus bytchz makin mii famouz
Is it possible that you really are as stupid as your post make you out to be?
harvest fire, the pagans are just rising up cause christians stole their holidays.
I read the chaplain's letter. It's full of...ahem...the arrogance so typical of Christian leaders. It asserts our freedom rests on our faith in god. The chaplain's too stupid to know that THIS is the kind of nonsensical lie that gets atheists angry. So he's upset his lies aren't believed, and that some BRAVE SOLDIER comes forward to tell him this? Too bad!
What a great thing for this guy to do, good for him. He should also read the UCMJ and get back to work so he's not surprised that he gets pinged for insubordination. Chaplains are there to support the religious and atheist (yes they do that) and to my knowledge there is no head clown of atheism or magic-other-way to support a non-belief. He is granted the same time to himself, the same access to peers and frankly he comes across a little like a cry baby to me. Like most atheists.
yea yea you guys aren't gonna like that but it's true.
And the chaplain should be 'pinged' as well for lying about America's freedoms being founded on faith in god. There's no reason a religious fanatic should be lying in uniform. You whimpering, sniveling Christians just wet your diapers when someone says you believe in fairy tales.
Not really, apparently YOU wet your diapers because we remind you of your future. Also God is so real to us and things are really the other way around. It appears atheism is the brainwashing. "The fool has said in his heart, 'there is no god." Try hard enough to not believe in Him and you will arrive at that belief out of choice. It takes greater energy to not believe in God then it takes to believe, just as with the heart of a child.
Then why aren't children born with the belief in your god? Because it's taught to them from an early age! Talk about brainwashing!!
Utter tripe!
Tell me, do you CHOOSE not to believe that Shiva, Thor, Zeus are real? How much energy does it take out of you to force yourself to shut out all contemplation of their existence?
You don't believe in the Gods and myths of other cultures or religions because YOU HAVE NO COMPELLING EVIDENCE to spark believe in you, even if believers in those myths were to share their reasons or justifications for believing, it probably won't strike you as true either.
You cannot force yourself to believe something that does not strike you as true can you?
And the really funny thing that if you were born in another place, culture or time, you would probably find belief in the Christian God also as ridiculous.
Trying to make it seem that disbelief is somehow evil and those who JUST LIKE YOU cannot believe in a certain philosophy, mythology or spiritual belief have dark, hidden reasons, is the first step to demonzing an entire group of people who do not share your beliefs.
It's the first step to bloodly crusades and forcible conversion.
@sunshine girl
Spot on and very well stated!
He has a better chance of coming to grief at the hands of a Tali-Christian than from the Taliban.
Something similar has been happening in the military for a good long time. I served in the early 1980's. I had taken the training to be a religious lay leader for places where there was no chaplain for my particular faith. The base chaplain, a Roman Catholic, did all he could to stonewall my designation, and I had to do an end run around him to get designated. He would rather I become a Roman Catholic, which was not going to happen.
What faith was I? Jewish. Still am.