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Muslims gather to pray at the Omar al Farouk Mosque in November 2010 in Anaheim, Calif. In that Southern California community, tensions flared after an FBI informant, Craig Monteilh, infiltrated mosques to gather information.
The FBI in San Francisco used a public relations program billed as "mosque outreach" to collect information on the religious views and practices of Muslims in Northern California and then shared the intelligence with other government agencies, according to FBI documents obtained by civil rights groups.
The heavily redacted documents, released after a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit, raise "grave constitutional concerns," said Hina Shamsi, director of the National Security Project of the American Civil Liberties Union.
"In San Francisco, we have found that community outreach was being run out of the FBI’s intelligence division and was part of a secret and systematic intelligence gathering program,” conducted without any apparent evidence of wrongdoing," said Shamsi. "The bureau’s documentation of religious leaders' and congregants' beliefs and practices violates the Privacy Act, which Congress passed to protect Americans’ First Amendment rights."
The Privacy Act limits sharing of personal information among government agencies and the length of time it can be retained. In this case, the information shared included religious beliefs and affiliations, which the ACLU argues is entirely out of bounds.
The ACLU is calling for the Department of Justice’s inspector general to investigate alleged violations of the Privacy Act in the San Francisco Division and determine the scope of such activity nationwide.
The FBI San Francisco defended its agents' actions, saying the information "was collected within the scope of an authorized law enforcement activity."
The ACLU of Northern California filed the FOIA lawsuit with the Asian Law Caucus and the San Francisco Bay Guardian newspaper, leading to the release of the FBI documents on Tuesday.
Meant to foster trust
The documents indicate that FBI was keeping records of conversations and activities within mosques and other Muslim organizations from 2004 through 2008, information that was provided by employees engaged in the outreach programs.
The announced intention of the FBI outreach programs is to foster trust between law enforcers and members of the Muslim community so they can work together to fight crime and avert terrorism.
An earlier ACLU report on community outreach prompted FBI national headquarters to issue a release stating that its policy requires separate operations and databases for intelligence gathering and community outreach programs.
A large proportion of the information was labeled "positive intelligence," which indicates that the FBI intends to keep it in its intelligence database, the ACLU report explained.
Many documents were marked "secret," even though they appeared to include only mundane information. Some documents were marked "disseminated outside," but did not specify the recipients.
Among the findings contained in the FBI documents:
- A 2005 FBI memorandum from a meeting with a congregant at Islamic Center of Santa Cruz, documented his name and religious affiliation and detailed other worshipers' financial contributions to the center and community support for Islam.
- The subject of a sermon and congregants' discussions about a property purchase for a new mosque were gathered by FBI agents during five visits to Seaside Mosque in 2005.
- Documents based on four "outreach" meetings between FBI personnel and representatives of the South Bay Islamic Association note discussions about the Hajj pilgrimage and "Islam in general."
- Documents based on FBI contacts with representatives of the Bay Area Cultural Connections — formerly the Turkish Center Musalla — describe the group’s mission and activities, and the ethnicity of its members. A memo indicates the FBI searched for the cell phone number of one participant in the meeting in the LexisNexis records database and Department of Motor Vehicle records, obtaining detailed information about him, including his date of birth, Social Security number, address and home telephone number.
There is no indication that the subjects were informed that the information was being collected or shared with other law enforcement agencies, the ACLU said.
The FBI in San Francisco declined a request for an interview, but released a statement by Assistant Director Michael Kortan. In addition to stating that the information gathering abided by laws and agency rules, it indicated that it had adjusted its outreach program since the period covered by the documents.
"Since that time, the FBI has formalized its community relations program to emphasize a greater distinction between outreach and operational activities," Kortan said.
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Outreach to 'generate goodwill'
"FBI San Francisco dedicated a full-time, non-agent employee to community outreach efforts in the fall of 2007," said a second statement from Stephanie Douglas, FBI special agent in charge. "The community outreach program is designed to generate goodwill and foster relationships with a wide-range of groups in the communities we serve."
But documents still under analysis by the ACLU indicate FBI San Francisco continued to mingle outreach and intelligence gathering through 2011, according to Shamsi.
The documents undermine trust for genuine outreach programs, said Farhana Khera, executive director of Muslim Advocates, a San Francisco-based nonprofit that makes policy recommendations to lawmakers and leaders.
"I think the recent documents further underscore how well-intentioned community leaders who talk with the FBI are instead the targets of this broad, intelligence-gathering effort," she said. "It’s easy to see then how that community leader who had a conversation with an FBI agent finds himself being harassed when traveling or crossing borders."
"These documents are illustrating the actual experiences of American Muslims that we have been hearing for a number of years now," she added.
The findings are the latest from an ACLU examination of how the FBI has conducted surveillance in the wake of 9-11 and a campaign to expose cases that they say threaten civil liberties.
In FBI documents obtained through other Freedom of Information lawsuits, the rights groups has highlighted systematic surveillance of Muslim student organizations and individuals and what it considers anti-Muslim bias in training materials being used by the FBI —now the subject of internal FBI investigation, according to published reports.
'Count the mosques'
In a separate case, documents uncovered by The Associated Press revealed that the New York Police Department conducted an extensive surveillance campaign of the Muslim population there, keeping secret files on individuals, businesses, mosques and organizations. Those findings have provoked outrage from many Muslim and civil rights groups, which have called on the Obama administration to intervene.
Greater FBI scrutiny of Muslim communities goes back to shortly after the 9/11 attacks, when then FBI Director Robert Mueller instructed field offices across the country to "count the mosques" and set up investigative goals accordingly, according to an article by investigative reporter Michael Isikoff.
Rules governing FBI surveillance were relaxed in 2008 to give more leeway to FBI "assessments" — a stage of surveillance that takes place before the opening of a formal investigation. These more lenient standards, critics say, allow information gathering on individuals without probable cause.
Rights groups are asking the Department of Justice to restore stricter rules on surveillance and to prohibit racial and religious profiling in all cases.
"What we need is for the FBI to go back to the standards set after the Hoover-era abuses.… guidelines put in place that required the FBI to engage in surveillance only if there’s evidence of wrongdoing," said Khera of Muslim Advocates.
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Leave a Comment:
Sounds like a good plan. Well done FBI.
Could have used a little muslim spying before 911...no one spys on you unless you're known to be a problem.
Anybody who thinks a conversation with the FBI is "off the record" is a fool.
How should this be a surprise? The FBI is our domestic spying agency.
"the information shared included religious beliefs and affiliations, which the ACLU argues is entirely out of bounds." So now their religious beliefs and affiliations are ENTIRELY out of bounds?????
What are they hiding for everyone? We already know their game of killing in the name of allah and that everyone that doesn't believe like they do should be killed.
Maybe their planning their FIRST act of humanity ???? Tell us what your religion has done to better the people of the world. Tell us how many hungry people you've fed, tell us of all the many PEACEFUL things you've gone out of the way to do.....ZERO! What a waste.
How can you say the "religious beliefs" of a group whose extreme beliefs include kiling those who do not belong to thier religion. Cults are watched and spied on for the same reason. If there is a danger to the citizens then watching and listenting to prevent another 911 is not forbidden. The only thing forbidden by the church/state separation is that the state cannot say you have to adopt one certain religion and no other. That was what our forefathers were running away from and what they forbad. Actually in that sense any religion that says you can believe in no other but theirs is unconstitutional in thier teachings.
I do not believe the ACLU is on our side most of the time anyway. They are part of the problem of extreme twisting of the Constitution that has led to the attempts at destroying it and our way of life as our forefathers intended. I'm becoming convinced they are more like the ANTI-CHRISITAN LIARS UNION.
Keep up the good work FBI!
Actually, the FBI took it's new techniques from the Geheime Stat Poliziei.
Ernst Kaltenbrunner is really alive and working with them.
Apparently no one in comment 1.0 through 1.5 has any interest in being free and is happy to relinquish their liberty for the sake of their safety. The founders are spinning in their graves. Of course religious beliefs are entirely out of bounds - you have heard of separation of church and state yes? That separation was designed by the founders to protect the church as much as the state.
The FBI is NOT a domestic spying agency, it is the national law enforcement agency. They are supposed to investigate criminal activity based on probably cause - you know like it says in the Constitution. They, and the fascist NYPD, have declared themselves to be above the law, the FBI having instructed their agents that they are allowed to "bend and suspend" the law when needed. The FBI has declared themselves to be allowed to investigate anyone it chooses (oops, sorry, conduct an "assessment") by obtaining bank records, internet activity and anything else they want to see, without one single bit of evidence of wrong-doing and zero probably cause.
You may be willing to live in a police state in order to feel free, I am not.
Exactly. After all it's not Buddhists trying to kill us.
JoeMike~
Either you don't live in the U.S., weren't born in the U.S. or consider the U.S.your home country. Twice you said 'the founder'. Not OUR founders. This indicated that you have a separation with the U.S. Perhaps it's mental, perhaps it's a reality. Unlike you, I'm OK if someone checks on the neighbors to see if their making bombs in their living room.
You are correct in that we are all given rights when our (MY) country formed however there is still limitations to those rights. For example. I can't board a plane and crash it into a building.
When any one race, religion, militia, politician, political party, military makes threats, carrys out attack, or exhibits corruption within Our USA Borders? I expect for the USA paid officials to act in the protection of the USA citizens. Nobody is immune, citizen or not. And yes even the FBI, CIA and any agency is too not Immune.
surefirepython - born in New Jersey, thanks.
And you are patently incorrect. We were not given rights by anyone. The rights outlined in the Bill of Rights of the US Constitution are rights granted by our status as human beings. The natural state of humanity it to be free. The Bill of Rights is the acknowledgement by the government that those rights belong to the people and the government has no authority to infringe upon those rights.
You might consider a little review of 5th grade civics.
It is about time that we recognize that this is a religious war. That is exactly what the Muslims say. We try to be politically correct and not say this. There are very good Muslims, some are my good friends, but we need to realize that it is within the Muslim Community that the terrorists exist.
Joemike, If you have nothing to hide then you won't care who's "spying" on you. You populate a safety issue with your poor rights....boohooo. It's people want to listen to me talk on the phone, watch where I go and find out what I do in a religious group so be it....nothing to hide here, but when a known religious group decides they want to hurt others then you better believe the DOD, FBI and who ever else was put in place to keep me and my family safe from complete nut jobs then how in gods name to you feel it a threat to your rights?
You also have a choice go elsewhere to live where you really have NO rights! You should be kissing the ground and thankful that we have a system in place that protects us better then anywhere else in the world.
As usual the ACLU is all a flutter and throwing a hissy fit about much ado about nothing.
The F. B. I. is empowered to deal with domestic terrorism. Only someone who is brain dead, or a card carrying member of the aforementioned organization, doesn't realize that the terrorism game these days is owned by fundamentalist, Islamic terrorists who would if they could destroy Western Civilization and most especially "The Great Satan" as they call the United States.
So where do you go looking for potential fundamentalist, islamic terrorists and the Imams who encourage angry young men to blow themselves up - certainly not a cooking convention of white, Norweigan grandmothers - but a mosque. Dah.
This does not mean that the FBI is suggesting that all the people there are likely to be terrorists, which is patently untrue or that the religion itself is fundamentally violent, which is also patently untrue; what this means is that the FBI is using its head and resources wisely by looking in the places that are most likely to lead them to finding the low-lifes who would perpetrate crimes as heinous as, or even worse than if possible, than 9/11.
If you are going to make an omlet you have to break a few eggs. We are currently at WAR - regardless of what the ACLU and their (turn the other cheek and smile while you let them slit your throat) ilk may claim to the contrary; at war with an enemy that has no regard for killing anyone who gets in their way and preferably in the most horrific manner possible because they know that will generate the most publicity.
We need the FBI doing more such initiatives, not fewer, if we are to take the type of action that commonsense dictates must be taken to deal with this type of threat.
Philip,
If the people are under the constant surveillance of their government then they have lost their essential liberty. The watchful eye of big brother has a chilling effect on the willingness of the people to exercise their freedom and is essentially what the terrorists want in the first place. Your approach is a complete capitulation to the will of terrorists. There is no "known religious group" that has decided they want to hurt others. There are fundamentalist islamic extremists - a radical fringe group - who have decided that they want to engage in terrorist activities. There are also fundamentalist christian extremists - the KKK for example, who engage in terrorists activities. Do you believe that the actions of radical christian terrorists warrant spying on all christians across the entire country? I hope not, but worry that your need to feel safe would lead you to say yes.
I have no intention of leaving the United States just because you are willing to knuckle under to terrorists. I perfer to remain and work to preserve the freedom you seem to be so willing to surrender.
They should be just happy that we learned not to gathier them up and put in dessert camps like we did during WWII. If you don't think the FBI was not fallowing the Nazi party activities during the same time you would be mistaken. Simple 5th grade civics Joe. Right or wrong we did it and thank God for it.
JoeMike said "We were not given rights by anyone. The rights outlined in the Bill of Rights of the US Constitution are rights granted by our status as human beings. The natural state of humanity it to be free. The Bill of Rights is the acknowledgement by the government that those rights belong to the people and the government has no authority to infringe upon those rights."
First off. Where you were born JoeMike plays no barring on your association with or to the U.S. outside of a birth certificate. Are then saying that anyone born with in the borders of the U.S. naturally want to protect our freedoms? You need to get out a little more if you believe that.
Second. You couldn't be more off base with your statement. The first day you're born you start having your rights governed. Most of us call those parents. Then again I can't assume you grew up in a normal environment so this may go over your head a bit (This is because you're converting to elemenatry school yard name calling so I want to talk to you on your level so you understand). Those right are adjusted based off of experience and need as one gets older. Ever heard the statement "until you're 18 and move out you'll follow my rules". Sounds like someones rights are 'given' to them.
I know. Big stretch here right? Not really. There's a set of rule to follow. You follow them and everyone is happy. You break them and you have problems.
I had no say in the bill of rights or what was put in there. No one asked me if I was OK with it. This being said, MY forefathers gave me my rights and I will except them or not. You can twist it however you want but my statement is and was correct.
1. Activity that goes on within Mosques, or religious activity is protected activity, covered by the 1st amendment.
Therefore, if we have agents of the government, coming into our houses of worship in order to gather intellegence to be used against us, we will no longer feel free to worship however we see fit. Specifically, if they base this on nothing more then religion. There goes religious freedom I guess.
2. If you say being a Muslim gives us probable cause, you're violating the 14th amendment. Clearly, we can look at every demographic and see fundementalist sects that pose a threat to us. Also, being a Muslim, does not put you in the same category as being a member of the KKK, the major difference being the only reason to join the KKK is to hate while the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful. This would actually be similar to spying on CHRISTIANS because of the Klan, not the klan itself. There's also ingrained precedent that protects groups like the Klan from civil liberties violations under the basis of the 1st Amendment, and any FBI integration or undercover missions/surveillance pertaining to them comes with probable cause and warrants. If not, please provide a citation for how you make that point. What if every time someone was shot the police felt it was okay it search and investigate every black person, or black people in general? Afterall, that demographic is responsible for a lot of shootings, ergo by this logic, we should be able to suspect them all. Would you still feel like this was okay then? So, quite clearly, we are not providing Muslims with the same protection we provide other religions.
3. The sweeping and classified legal standards for intellegence gathering and the CIA, do not, and should never, guide our local police forces. The FBI is subject to the 4th amendment. Period.
The officers are engaged in "human mapping" and obtaining information on these subjects, for the government. That is, absolutely, a search without probable cause, and no, it doesn't have to be "on tape". There is no national security exception to the 4th amendment. The same reason that the police can't look at your race, gender, national origin, religion and based on that start following you around in a professional capacity, digging into how you worship, what you say, and what you read, in order to later, possibly, use it against you. The professional capacity makes a world of difference. To allow warrantless searches an domestic espionage would be a blow to the whole system of "checks and balances". Intellegence gathering and investigation of citizens or foreign nationals is an executive power, and must be subject to the checks of judicial scrutiny. If we're doing this without warrants, how will those checks be made?
4. The CIA can't do this, because the CIA has zero domestic jurisdiction. That one's easy. They shouldn't be training, working with, or in cahoots with any local law enforcement team.
5. We are not guilty, until proven innocent. To use a witnesses discription, after a crime has been committed, in order to help solve the crime, doesn't have the presumption of guilt that this does. A crime has already happened. Just like it was okay to use "Islamic" as a way to hunt down the 9/11 perpetrators, because the crime had already happened, and we were looking for specific people. This, not so much.
"Those who give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
Hummmmmmmmmmmmm ..............................
How much would you trust any group that through deceit, worms their way into your confidence to spy on you? If you were a peaceful, law abiding American Muslim, would you ever trust the FBI again? Actions of deceit, such as these , set us back years in building trust .... that we desperately need to have peaceful coexistence between us all ........
Piece Meal, SURPRISE? Where was the ACLU when American Citizen's OWN Congress-People (especially Republican, sorry, it's a fact) were fighting tooth and nail, filabustering, stalling, coercing, extorting, and obstructing exigent legislation for "all-out-have-to-have-at-any-cost, grave or not". [Warrantless Wiretapping of Civilians]? Roll the tapes. Check your cellphone, check your GPS, check your computer, check your TV...........check your Ipod, check your Ipad......apparently Check Starbucks???? Check what used to be America's Airwaves? Check your WiFi............Check your Electric Meter..........Check your refrigerator? A LOT of these things you don't even have to leave The Privacy of YOUR Own Home to check!!!
If you want religion in our government then you must accept government in your religion. It's a 2 way street. Personally I think there are quite a few "Christian" churches who could use some internal monitoring too.
surefirepython - Your response to my original post was "Either you don't live in the U.S., weren't born in the U.S. or consider the U.S.your home country." Since you questioned whether or not I was born in the US I was telling you that I was. BTW I also live in the US and very much consider the US my home country.
In your new post you blather on about my parents limiting my freedom as a child. What on earth does that have to do with anything I've said. My posts are about the obligation of the US government - based on the Constitution - to recognize that our fundamental liberty is not the gift of the state but a consequence of our humanity. Our choices in life are limited by lots of people - parents, teachers, employers. So what? None of that has anything do to with the relationship between the people and our government. A government, BTW, that "We the People" created for the sole purpose of protecting those freedoms of which I speak.
Surefire, should I assume you would have no problem with the FBI checking to see if you are making bombs in your living-room?
Where does the ACLU get it's funding? I'd like to know that. They always seem to be against our country in everything they do. Who funds them?
Ahhhh, poor little Muslims. Nice job FBI. Collect information on this pest boil as much as possible to protect this fine country and its folks from those morons.
Joemike and all the others upset about their freedoms and rights being trampled on, this is the very thing that the Muslim religion wants because they ride on the coat tail of our freedoms to continue their agenda. I for one won't sit back and watch America get over taken buy this cult like they have done in much of Europe.
Give them an inch and they will have their own laws that you have to fallow called Shariah law
"" Already a fight with this in several states .....so go ahead and fight for those rights and I hope you all enjoy the muslims thanking you at the end of it all. This is not a religion, if it was they would be doing things for the poor, homeless and helping when disaster strikes, not dancing in the streets burning our flag, wake up!
It's all apart of their plan just like it was in Europe so sit back and watch it while it happens, your the type of people they count on to make it happen!
Hey, it wasn't Muslims talking about government mandated, transvaginal ultrasounds, was it? In fact, when has any Muslim introduced any piece of legislation?
Oh, wait, only our legislators who we elect can do that. There goes your "Sharia Law" fear. And really, can any of you present an argument that's actually based in law and not paranoia and prejudice???
Skiddy,
This is just from wikipedia, but it should answer your basic question...
Philip, You're worried about giving muslims an inch and having them take a mile and I'm worried about the government doing the same thing. Only one of those groups has the power to take away the freedom of the American people and it is not the muslims.
Have most of you listened to yourselfs with your bluster and hubris? And then you wonder why ALL of them want to blow you up? Of course all of them don't but I wouldn't expect the ignorant posters above to understand that. Hell, I'm reading you people for two or three sentences and I'M hoping most of you get blown up...it doesn't have to be by a Muslim but a boiler exploding or a turkey fryer...I'm just saying. With your hate speech, who wouldn't want to blow you people up.
So, by your logic you feel the FBI needs to spy on people who attack our people on our land. What race and religion was Timothy McVeigh? Terry Nichols? Ted Kazynski? You know, they wanted smaller government too. They hated the ACLU as well. Perhaps it's YOU people the FBI should be watching because in the past two weeks I've never seen such a disgusting outpouring of hatred and rascism.
Now, go ahead and call me a hypocrite for being hateful to you people but I'm not basing it on race, I'm basing it on the fact that many of you people love to talk before you think and could never, ever be wrong. Look at what you've written and tell me what seperates you guys from the KKK or any other white hate group. Nothing is exactly what seperates many of you. And this comes from a WHITE GUY!
I'm sure most of you are christians too...how christian of you to judge and hate another religion.
We aren't hating them, and you must be a Democrat!
The ACLU needs to be put out of business. It's nothing more than an front for Communists. The Communist Manifesto states that it will destroy America from within and that is EXACTLY what this organization is doing. Mosques are breeding grounds for producing terrorists, the FBI should be infiltrating them. They want the American infidels gone. The ACLU is ALWAYS suing ANYTHING Christian. Why isn't the ACLU suing the Muslims who throw their prayer rugs down in the middle of the streets of NY blocking law abiding citizens from their right to move unobstructed. I personally find it offensive that I have to look at their butts in the air and that they get to shove their religion down my throat and the ACLU doesn't do anything to stop them!! Yet they do everything in their power to get a cross dedicated to fallen soldiers off public land. Where is the equal 'get your religion out of my face' when it comes to Muslims?
why isn't the FBI spying on Lutheran Scandinavians; answer, it is because the radical element of the Muslim religion is spaning terrorist's by the hundreds throughout the world.
When was the last time someone from the Church of Christ did anything but be a hippocrit? They are'nt blowing things up. Is there a group called the "Baptist Bombers"? I don't think so. Either keep your noses clean and convince anyone else that calls themselve's a "Muslim" to do the same or go back to your sandbox. Otherwise be prepared to be scrutinized and held under a microscope. The U.S. is over-populated anyway. P.S., take the ACLU with you if you choose to go away.
I finally stopped laughing and was able to catch my breath after reading some of the mentally challenged posts.
Now let's be honest. I know it is hard for a lot of you but please try. If this story was about a Christian church of a denomination who's members had been proven to have been associated with terrorist acts you would probably not have posted your outrage over the FBI's tactics or would have posted in support of them, right?
I assume the FBI is spying on Christians too because Tim McVeigh, Eric Rudolph, the Unibomber, and the shooter in Arizona were all Christians.
I'd like to know the FBI's logic on this. At the same time, I'm not surprised that this is happening as some imams/mullahs from other countries come to American mosques to preach. And some are extremist.
Sarah,
FYI. Wasn't very hard to find either.
H.R.2457 : Same-Day Voter Registration Act of 2007
Sponsor: Rep Ellison, Keith [MN-5] (introduced 5/23/2007) Cosponsors (42)
Committees: House Administration
Latest Major Action: 5/23/2007 Referred to House committee. Status: Referred to the House Committee on House Administration.
Sven,
Yes, I would. Just like I support there right to get on this vine and spew their hate and judgment towards gay people. I don't agree, but I understand they have that right. You know who else would defend it, and has many times, the ACLU.
Did you miss the part where I said ELECTED OFFICIALS and LEGISLATORS??? Do you really think that was Ellison trying to implement "Sharia Law"??? By registering MORE people to vote? Really? What does that bill have to do with his being Muslim, and was we or was he not ELECTED??? Was he acting in the capacity of a Muslim or a LEGISLATOR??? Like I said, LEGISLATORS do that, not the religion of Islam. Wow.
Of course, Christians are never hypocritical, right Jeremy.
It amazes me the number of people who post that have no inkling what the US Constitution says or means. joemike404 is ABSOLUTELY right. Our rights are not given to us by our govt...our rights are GIVEN to us by God and is for every person and that fact is ACKNOWLEDGED in the Constitution. While I admit that monitoring Muslim threats is important, not at the expense of losing our rights. I believe it was Benjamin Franklin that said if we sacrifice freedom for safety...we gain neither.
We should protect our freedoms as if they are our most precious commodity.....because they ARE.
I wish we could get the government to come spy on my church. Lord knows they need to hear the gospel
Islam is at war with us, it preaches subversion, lying and deception to advance itself against a materially un-defeatable enemy. We need to watch these people closely because they will not stop.
Islam...."peaceful"....when pigs fly! Read the Koran people! It's all in there, see for yourself, it is a cult of violence, death, oppression and despair, despite what it's lying proponents say it is, remember, lying is part of the game to them!
Bottom line. Christians didn't fly planes into buildings killing 3000 Americans. All nineteen hijackers were muslims of arab descent. Also, can you name me 10 conservative causes in the last 30yrs the ACLU has taken on in their defense? Good luck with that one. Political correctness is just as much at fault for 9/11. The self righteous, all knowing "Sarah's" of this country with their liberal left ideology used to be just harmless rhetoric prior to 9/11. Not anymore. now real people in the real world lose their lives.
Then let me remind you of what George Washington said.
Ick,
This is like investigating ALL Christians because of the actions of the KKK or Lord's Resistance Army. Did Christians lynch hundreds of black men? The people who did that were Christian, and they used their Christianity as a reasoning, Christian Knights and all, does that make Christianity responsible? Does that make all Christians responsible? Should we have gone to war with Christianity?
And it's not my ideology, it's OUR CONSTITUTION.
Unhappy,
Can you quote us something from GW stating it's a good thing to engage in domestic espionage against entire religions?
Actually, the people who did that were Democrats! KKK was founded by the Democratic Pary, not the so- called Christian Right. Stop trying to make things up. Time to go back to School! Leave christians out of it.
How about this:
Unhappy,
Stop embarrassing yourself.
Yes, they were Democrats. That was before the ideological shift during the civil rights movement. After Johnson signed the Voting Rights Act, the Dems got pissed, and ran to the Republicans. The Republicans than ran to the Dems because they saw their party get over run with racist "Dixie-crats".
Both parties did a complete 180. Furthermore, that has ZERO to do with this. And are you really claiming that the KKK didn't consist of Christians???
That quote sounds like he's talking about your personal life and it has no referrence to the government's right to circumvent their limited powers.
JustDe,
All those things I've managed to group together have a common link.
Second...
We're not talking about Afghanistan, we're talking about America and what's occurring here. The same laws that protect us from your little scenario are ALSO APPLICABLE TO EVERY OTHER RACE, RELIGION, NATIONAL ORIGIN, AND GENDER.
Finally, you sound paranoid.
We need Christians to help stifle Muslims, without Christians you will eventually be a Muslim or not..
Although some Christians abuse the religion and are whacked out of their minds I say good job to the Christan FBI
I more concerned about by childrens future than losing privacy. Let them or me be spied upon. It keeps us alive. If we don't get a handle on this they will be sending their youth into our malls or gathering areas with bombs.
If we allow them to do this to Muslims, we give them precedent to DO IT TO YOU. I'd rather have the FBI follow the Bill of Rights and the Constitution.
Of course, I'm fairly sure you wouldn't feel this same way if it was Christians being spied on. I hope you're this outspoken about all the mandate ultrasound and personhood laws. Since you're soooo concerned about women's rights. And, by the way, those are Christians enacting those laws.
Sarah, Stop embarrassing yourself.
It's obvious to me now that you know nothing of history. Now you are making stuff up about how all the christians are on the right and none are on the left? I think many democrats would disagree with you. Second, I was not the one who brought up the KKK, you did. Next time you associate the christians with something bad, make sure you didn't get it from your own party first. Are you forgetting the workings of Margaret Sanger, Founder of Planned Parenthood? Another certified racist by your own definitions and a feminist....A firm believer in communism and theosophy. Common beliefs among the democrats of today, don't you think?
What's next? You're going to claim you're an independent?
Oh, don't worry we are. You just refuse to listen.
Christianity is always in the media for criticism. What makes muslims so special that we feel we should have to exempt them?
THANK YOU FOR PROTECTING THE UNITED STATES FBI !!!!!
IRAN CAN GO TO HELL !!!!
Unhappy,
Where did I say there were no Christians on the left? I said the KKK consisted of Christians. Are you claiming they didn't???
Than who did they consist of? Jews? I don't think so. The Christians are associated with the KKK, because that's what religion the members were.
Furthermore, in regards to this situation, the political party is unimportant, this issue/article is a question of religion. You're taking a bad sect of a single religion and applying their actions to the entire religion.
Al Qaeda = Muslim Members = All Muslims are bad and need to be spied on.
So, I'm doing the same thing to prove a point.
KKK = Christian Members = All Christians are bad and need to be spied on.
I'm not advocating for that, I'm showing you how your logic is faulty and biased.
What the f does Sanger have to do with anything? And, by the way, check out her real life story...
http://www.biography.com/people/margaret-sanger-9471186
De,
Okay, those mandated ultrasounds have NOTHING to do with preventative care. The medical community has deemed them unnecessary, and if they are it's between a woman and her doctor, not the government.
Do some research.
Sarah; you seem to be concerned young lady, very good; however , if we were at war with Christian country's trying to attack us , because we were of a different religion, you may have a point; however we are in the beginning of a world war with Radical Muslim ideology, they are trying to kill us, and we are trying to kill them, it is as simple as that, why do you think our troops are in Afghanistan, Bosnia, Iraqi, Philippines, Sudan, , it is because we are at WAR !
Sarah, NAACP v the State of Alabama was about the NAACP refusing to make the names of their members public stating it violated their freedom to associate. This was back in the day when other 'associations' like the KKK (which although it consisted of Christians, their belief system is not congruent with biblical teaching whatsoever) would actively seek out NAACP members to harm and 'terrorize'. Well we are fighting terrorism. And shouldn't we find ways to protect ourselves from today's KKK? Which is Radical Islam? The truth of the matter is the US has killed thousands of innocent people in Islamic countries over the past 30 years. It's not even so radical to think they would want a little payback. In stead of trying to fight people, why don't you and your liberal friends come up with a solution of how you suggest we go about protecting ourselves. Seriously
And Sarah, You really do A LOT to bring A LOT of collected, levelheaded and informative posts to many different threads that I've "read-heard" you on. KKKKKKKKKKUDOS!!! VERY APPRECIATIVE!!!!! Just wanted to say. :)
And, THANKS for providing the ACLU info. Very enlightening.
I love the comments, seems that most feel the same way that I do. My opinion to this article and the story,
"so what", deal with it.
I would like to comment on the statement that Shamsi made in the article;
"In San Francisco, we have found that community outreach was being run out of the FBI’s intelligence division and was part of a secret and systematic intelligence gathering program,” conducted without any apparent evidence of wrongdoing," said Shamsi
my comment is this, THE FBI DOESNT NEED ANY APPARENT EVIDENCE OF WRONGDOING. In fact, evidence is all around us and all over the world !!!
I saw one comment that made a good point, "I would rather the FBI be proactive rather than reactive." -especially with this topic.
good job FBI
Sarah, Actually it doesn't. The first KKK was founded in 1865 in Pulaski, Tennesse by members of the Confederate Army. And even though they might be in name only( not too many people back then would admit to being non-christian), their claims of christianity are completely unfounded. Observe:
It's not like they didn't have any real christians around them. In all honesty, I believe them to be a bunch of atheists rather than christians.
Sarah, you need to go live with them and experience what really goes on. In your version of reality, you sit back and judge and make your comments on what you hear and see. You clearly have NO CLUE, sure you make a point that not all muslims are evil, that may be true, but that doesn't dismiss everything else and it certainly does not mean that all muslims are good. The fact is, you don't see what really happens in the middle east and the rest of the world. THE FACT IS, they don't like us, they hate us, and everything that we stand for. Christians are the enemy to them, they slaughter Americans simply because they are not muslim. The fact is that we find muslim spies and financial supporters hiding in places like these ALL THE TIME. We are constantly catching "American Muslims" who are raising money to send over to their homeland to support terrorism.
The FBI has every right to spy, govern, inspect, deny, and detain ANYBODY THEY WANT. THIS IS FOR YOUR PROTECTION. You seem to forget that there is evil in the world. Sure, we would all like for it to be a perfect world and no conflict and no war. Tell that to the terrorists.
As long as there are third world countries and gross poverty, absense of government and authority, we will never be in your perfect world reality. Terrorists are terrorists because they want what someone else has, they have hate in their hearts because they come from a place of turmoil, and that is all they know. I feel sorry for them and all that, but it is not a solution to allow it to happen and just turn our heads and keep closed minds and blindly believe that, "not all of them are bad".
Sarah, Read the "Pivot of Civilization" by Margaret Sanger, not some made up crap about a biography that someone else posted.You will get to know the real her and not some PC version of her.
Nope, see the US Law Makers (US Congress) Investigations, Findings and Recommendations of the US Congressional 9/11 Committee.
Nope. The other "Religions" do not state nor condone what the 109 Suras of the 114 Suras of the Holy Koran (Quran) Require as the Calls to All Islamic Believers to War Against the Christians, Jews, Unbelievers. The Death Penalty for Islamic Believers that do not participate in the War Against the Christians, Jews, Unbelievers. And once again your limiting Western Term of "Religion" does not apply to the Islamic Belief. And Muslim is the Complete subjugation to Islam.
By the Way the minority 1.8 Million Islamic Believers living at the US do NOT determine what Islam is or is not for the majority 1.5 Billion Islamic Believers Worldwide that DO determine the Rules, Laws, etc. that the minority Islamic Believers at the US MUST Obey.
To all of you saying "Extremists", "Radical", etc. you are proving just how uninformed you really are. It is the majority of Islam that is Fundamentalist Islam now as Shia (the term Shia Law, derviative Sharia Law) as the Centuries Old Wars between the Shia and Sunnis, the Sunnis being the Modern Liberal Interpretations of the Holy Koran (Quran) and Pro Western, Pro Modern, Pro US, etc. so the Sunnis are losing (have already lost) because of their Politically Correct Western Beliefs and Ideals versus the Fundamentalist Islamic Believers (Shia).
Most of the uninformed masses of the US come out with the most uninformed posts saying things like, "We should have attacked Saudi Arabia, not Iraq or Afghanistan, because the 9/11 Attackers came from there". So all of you uninformed here, are saying that is true. Why, because YOU are failed products of the Failed US Education System and lack cognitive research skills. As the International Al Quada Franchise was established as a Fundamentalist Islamic Jihadist Organization that is: Anti US, Anti US Allies, Anti US Ally Government of Saudi Arabia. Just watch how many will post the same uninformed nonsense even after reading this. And what I am talking about is Life and Death. And this is not a COH violation as, this is, if you say this (written evidence); then you are doing this (consequences), called a conditional statement.
Once again. Nope. The US Law Makers (US Congress) changed all of that after the 9/11 Attacks and the US Congressional 9/11 Committee. And like I stated before the person that changed all of that as not to violate US Laws, January 21, 2009 was President Obama.
Thanks, I got a chuckle out of that. The Central Intelligence Agency is the President's Own Executive Intelligence Agency; go tell President Obama what he can or cannot order the CIA to do. Of course President Obama is completely ignoring the Investigation Results, Findings and Recommendations of the US Law Makers, US Congress 9/11 Committee. Once again, the US Law Makers as US Congress changed the US Laws.
Your Academic Idealism is NOT the Reality of the Real World Life or Death School of Hard Knocks. Recent example: The current Lynch Mob Rule, Court of Public Opinion as Zimmerman Guilty Until Proven Innocent, demanding the False Arrest and Conviction of Zimmerman, before the completions of the Prosecutors Investigations (you arrest a suspect after the investigations, then you thru the Courts obtain a Conviction). By saying Murder, Murderer, Killer, Killed, etc. that is an assumption of Guilt, as to why the term Accused or Suspected Murder, Murderer, Killer, Killed, etc. must be used or this can be used to throw out everything in a Court of Law as presumption of Guilt. And due to all this Publicity as demanded by Martin's Parent, they acquitted Zimmerman on the Technicality of Zimmerman no longer being capable of obtain a "Fair and Just" Trial with an unbiased Jury of his Peers.
Now let's talk about the previous Speaker for All Democrats, Speaker of the House, US Congress, Nancy Pelosi and her Guilty Until Proven Innocent (see references to President Obama's Patriot Acts, Definition of Homegrown Domestic Terrorist); as "Anyone returning from the Wars is a potential Homegrown Domestic Terrorist". If you don't know the repercussions of that, ask anyone that is TSA or Homeland Security.
Want to try for 6 Strike Outs. First part, sure go into an Islamic Nation looking for "Islamic" suspects, like we did weeks after the 9/11 2001 Attacks: http://dougstanton.net/. As far as "potential", suspected, "profiling", patterns of behavior, etc. that is all completely Legal ever since President Obama's January 21, 2009 Patriot Acts.
Sorry, as soon as you posted anything from Wikipedia you negated all your posts. Due to Wikipedia's Disclaimer of:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:General_disclaimer
However, if you are willing to become the subject matter expert in all the areas concerned with the information of that Wikipedia Article then publish, copyright, etc. your Article then sure you Wikipedia Reference would then become valid information (still not necessarily Facts).
Don't keep up with current events much do you. How about this you go do the research of President Obama's January 21, 2009 Patriot Acts (plural) that: extended the President Bush Patriot Act (singular), Legalized the Monitoring and Censorship of All US Communications (especially the Internet), Preemptive Detentions, No Material Support to Terrorist Organizations (SOS Clinton's US Department of State Terrorist Organization Lists, as upheld by US Supreme Court 2010, as NO Humanitarian Assistance, Expert Advise (Legal Advise), Medical Supplies, Financial, etc. also being fought by ACLU), Without Warrant required cooperation of the Internet Service Providers (ISPs) to provide Customers Physical Location(s), increased relationship to the revised US Insurrection Act for the Use of Deadly Force to be used by the US Military against US Citizens with US Military Tribunals and Indefinite Detentions also Preemptive Detentions and Extraordinary Interrogations after the seizures of all potential weapons there is also Summary Executions as Teason (Traitors) for those US Military that refuse to Obey those Orders (of course most trained in Law know that these would be considered "Illegal Orders", however, dead is dead as Summarily Executed; with depending on if other Nations demand Justice, those US Military obeying these "Illegal Orders" would after obeying these "Illegal Orders" would be tried as "War Criminals".) Also included in the President Obama January 21, 2009 Patriot Acts (plural) were the Defeated as Unconstitutional (President Bush Refused to sign into US Laws) US Senate S.1959 and US House of Representatives H.R.1955 also known as the George Orwell 1984 Thought Crimes Laws, in that the written thought or verbal statement (with witnesses) is also the Crime, example: "Anyone stating a radical change to (US) Government is a Homegrown Domestic Terrorist".
President Obama seen here January 22, 2009 during a staged News Media Event signing into US Laws, his January 21, 2009 Patriot Acts, 04:38 minutes of 11:55 minutes, see all those standing around clapping, tells you Mystery Rhee the Demoncraps wanted this, what happened to your "I Can" changed to "It's Someone Else's Fault":
Naomi Wolf: 'Obama can lock any US citizen up without trial'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLSeD19m3UE
Nice Failed Attempt at the Deflection of Blame Game. How about this start with the US Lawmakers (US Congress) Investigations, Findings and Recommendations of the 9/11 US Congressional Commission. As far as race (your Failed attempt to play the overused Race Card) and religion of Timothy McVeigh, Terry Nichols, Ted Kazynski, sure listed as "Christians" due to their parents, however, avowed Atheists and Agnostics.
stexasdave what examples do you want, Waco, Texas; Ruby Ridge; the current "Militias"; Southern Church possible Affiliations with KKK, etc.. There was even and investigation of the Boy Scouts of America (a Private Voluntary Organization, sustained by Memberships, Donations even by Churches) demanded by some Parents pertaining to Religious Affiliations (as, On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country), I was laughing my arse off, the FBI should have billed those parents for the wasted time and spent US Taxpayer money.
Once again the average US Citizen does not even have ANY concept of Islam. How about this Sarah-3043284, go to an Islamic Nation to learn Islam formally at a College, usually this will require to previously learn the Official Language of Islam, Arabic. You will also have to attend the Mandatory School Curriculum of Hitler's Mein Kampf taught as a success story due to Amin Al Husseini as a Representative of the Islamic World signing an Alliance, 1933, with Hitler, as well as the Mandatory Blame the Jews for Everything, "Protocols of the Wise Elders of Zion". Of course at Islamic Nations if you refuse to pass the Mandatory School Curriculum they will immediately expel you as is their Right. I would have recommended Egyptian Colleges like I attended; but, since the Arab Spring, my friends at Egypt that I lived with while attending Colleges, have all told me NEVER to come back there as the Fundamentalist Islamic Muslim Brotherhood have taken over.
So let's talk about your post. First, Islam is NOT your Limiting Western Term of "Religion". Second, For any Islamic Believer, Islam is ALL, All Politics, All Religion, All Laws, All Beliefs, All Culture, All Ways of Life (and Death), etc. that supersede the politics, religions, laws, beliefs, cultures, ways of life, etc. of all Nations. Third, the previous Second is reflected by the Mandatory Islamic Tithes that were perverted from 2% of everything you own, to the more you give the more subjugated to Islam (Muslim) you are, it is standard practice for the Imams at the Mosques Worldwide to use peer pressure first to obtain the "more you give", when that Fails Islamic Law takes effect to enforce the collections of these Islamic Taxes. The Mandatory Islamic Tithes of the 1.5 Billion Islamic Believers Worldwide are not limited to: Political Endorsements of Islam, Legalization of Islamic Jihadists and Islamic Organizations, Monetary (currently Trillions USD per year to Islamic Jihadists thru "Non Established Financial Institutions"), (recently counted) Posting Taqiya (Lies to Advance Islam) on the Internet, Material Support to Islamic Jihadist Organization (listed as Terrorist Organizations by US Department of State), Islamic Sanctuary to Islamic Jihadists, it is the Norm at many Islamic Nations for the oldest children to be required to join the Islamic Jihadists for at least 9 months of service (more if you are valuable), if you do not have anymore to give to Islam you join the Islamic Jihadists, etc..
So pertaining to your post, there is NO Difference for an Islamic Believer between being a Legislator and being an Islamic Believer, both must adhere to being an Islamic Believer.
Nice Failed Argument. In Modern Times after SOMEONE (ACLU) pushed the Separation of Church And State Issue that "rights are GIVEN to us by God" went bye bye.
Thank you Sarah, for that. It did open my eyes some. They are privately funded, plus they also share in some of the awards they "win." I do not think the ACLU is good for the country, though, I still think they are against everything American.
joemike404 - I do believe it's you + me. Why are Americans so willing to give up their rights? The next time I attend church and somebody wants to 'make friends' + tell me 'they're just visiting,' I'll run in the opposite direction!
The few liberties we do have are too precious to just toss away. Oh well, we do all know about the biggie that's out there--their secret surveillance of all Americans as another bill is sitting in Congress and will either be acted upon, or it's already happened. If they don't get it one way, they'll get it another!
They're gobbling up the info right now as we sit here and click away on the keyboard. Good grief!
Nice failed attempt to attach the FBI, President Obama to the Gestapo.
Your computer and internet access is not for just looking at Porn.
Go do the research the FBI as the Bureau of Investigation has been doing "Domestic Surveillance" long before World War II using those techniques long before Adolf Hitler, the SA, the Gestapo (Geheime Stat Poliziei )and the NAZIs. Especially against pre World War I US "Organized Crime".
sarah,
You have quite an ability to spin your liberal agenda by involving the KKK into this, however you are missing a key component and that is the KKK used hatred fueled by raciscm, not religion, whereas the Islamic faith uses hatred fueled by their religion. To possibly say otherwise would be naive.
Flush em out boys (and girls in case there are any lady agents on the case)!!!
This period in our history will be known as the McCarthy Era part 2. Films will be made and books will be written about the paranoia and ignorance induced harassment of a group of people, or a perceived group of people. Those that perpetuated the harassment and those that supported them because of their reactionary, anti-intellectual, animalistic fear will be mocked and derided, and future generations will wonder how people could shut down their minds and get caught up in the paranoia. It's similar in nature to the paranoia that appears to have led to Trayvon Martin's death.
Oh, and by the way, are people aware that the US military command is heavily made up of right wing fundamentalist christians who have openly stated their religion is a strong reason behind their will to fight? (I mention this as a christian) So, to single out islam as a violent religion without admitting Christianity is very much similar in nature is intellectually dishonest. One may have an openly violent group among them, but the other is just as violent, only it's violent group hides behind official channels.
You mention that based on your being the 92% of US Citizens that have NEVER Served in the US Military and refuse to even do your "Civic Duty" as stated by Candidate Obama, "US Military Service is a Civic Duty", while getting paid below minimum wages.
YOU STATING BALONEY AS A OPINION, FROM NOT EVEN HAVING ANY FIRSTHAND KNOWLEDGE NOR EXPERIENCE.
Now who is the HYPOCRI..
I see a lot of people saying "great job FBI" and "if you have nothing to hide...." Perhaps they would be more comfortable with an agency like the KGB in the old Soviet Union. If something like this is allowed to persist, you find quickly that having beliefs that the leadership doesn't like becomes "something to hide."
The FBI was completely out of line. It has no business conducting warrantless espionage on citizens so that "undesirables" can be made to "disappear" to unpleasant camps.
I think the FBI needs to go to Dearborn, Michigan and see what's going on there. Here is an interview of a Libyan Christian who lives in Dearborn, Michigan and what he see's on a daily basis.
Unhappy,
Since you seem to believe everything on the internet, well not everything, just the stuff that backs up your preconceived notions, this is gonna rock your world.
I live 20 minutes from Dearborn. It's a great middle class community and the food rocks.
Furthermore, your claim that the KKK Christians aren't "real" Christians... THAT"S WHAT MOST MUSLIMS THINK ABOUT AL QAEDA! Why do you think your religion has the higher ground on lock.
Get over yourselves.
Sarah: So tell me, how are they like the other christians that you see? I could tell you a lot about Al Queda and muslims across the world and their similarities. Tell me what are the similarities that you see between christians and the KKK other than their name? Don't know? It figures.
Even though you live 20 minutes from Dearborn, Michigan doesn't mean you know what is going on there. For instance, I live fairly close to NYC and even I don't know what is happening all the time around there.
It's obvious that you are a muslim or is dating one. Time to wake up!
No you couldn't, because in no way, shape, or form, are you an expert. That's the point.
About the same as I see between Al Qaeda and Muslims. A radical fringe group that perverts the true meaning of their religion, skews it to support their wack-o agenda, and has zero respect for human life.
Same goes for the dude on your youtube clip. That's the point, you pick and choose what to believe, basing it on your preconceived notions, instead of looking at facts.
This says it all about your brain functioning, biases, and bigotry. A perfect illustration. Thank you.
Well, so much for the Constitution. It was nice while it lasted, I guess.
FireBlade,
When the FBI comes knocking on your door in the next decade and asks to see your papers are you going to say "deal with it" then? Some people take to being spied on with less than happy thoughts.
All of you people in this thread giving the FBI a pat on the back are delusional, there is no other word to describe it. You have swallowed the red pill and have been transported to the land of insanity.
We are not at war with Muslims nor Islam. We are at war with radical groups that use Islam as their spear. We have the same kind of groups in the USA: the West Borough Baptist Church, the KKK, the numerous anti-gay 'Christian' societies like NOM and FFA. Even the Evangelicals are starting to become uber radicalized to the point where they want to distort political reality to justify forcing their religion onto everyone.
Those of you that believe that we are are war with all of those that practice Islam whether they be Americans or Arab or from some other nation or region around the globe have all been manipulated by those that have abused your own fear of terrorism. In the 1990's there would be very few of your kinds of people that would willingly give up their right to privacy just to have the illusion of security. American's back then had more spine then most of you here do, they would not hide in fear of the big bad terrorists behind the skirts of judges and justices, they would go on with their lives but be personally more wary.
What you guys have done is much worse, you have allowed the Government to start taking away our freedoms. First it was our privacy. We have allowed the Government the license to start spying on anyone in American with little more then a "they said" argument. We allowed the TSA to rape people in the name of security. We have given police the tools they need to militarize, hell the NYPD should be considered a paramilitary organization, not a police department. The next victim of you lethargy is going to be our freedom of speech. They are already attempting to take parts of that away by denying us the right to protest, by trying to police the Internet when it is not needed, by drowning out the voice of the voters with the money of the wealthy.
The problem with creating a police stat and dictatorship is that the changes are almost always hidden under the guise of patriotism and those that support the actions realize too little to late what they have wrought because to them the changes are too subtle to recognize while everyone else is screaming for them to stop.
So yeah, like joemike said, keep enabling those that would see us change to a dictatorship and see where it get's you in a decade or two. You may surprised by the America of the future where nothing you do is unscrutinized by someone in the FBI, NSA, or CIA. Where you cannot get a legal medical procedure done without being implanted with something or being probed. Where the Government has control of what you do at all times and controls what you can read, say, hear, and watch.
I think the rest of us will likely move to Canada, England, or Japan by that time and will be watching the ship sink from afar and feel pity for you because you realized too late that your fear and hate has made you easy targets to be manipulated and molded into the good subservient souls they wanted you to be.
True that may not happen, but it could and that should give you pause the next time you talk of allowing the Government more control over your personal lives. The Government has no place governing the daily lives of its people; a free society cannot be told they have to do something, if what they are doing is not illegal, in order to obtain something else. You cannot be forced to be vaginally probed to get an abortion, you cannot be forced to follow Christian dogma if you are not a Christian. You cannot be forced to give your guns to the Government. You cannot be forced to give up your right of free speech. None of these can take place in a country that is free.
I again reflect what joemike said and will use a quote I have used so many times when discussing the topic of liberties and freedoms and how your group is pissing them away for everyone not just yourselves:
"Those who would trade their liberties for security deserve neither liberty nor security." That is a quote from Ben Franklin and he is absolutely correct, unequivocally. If you personally want to give up your freedoms then go live in a Government internment camp. The rest of us do not want the Government to have the ability to spy on any American, to arrest any American, to kill any American just because of their religion or religious associations.
Then let's look at the facts. Muslims has one of the highest rates of terrorism of any group at this point in time.Your bias is clearly showing if you don't.Don't believe me, then look up the facts.
You live next to Dearborn, Michigan. Are you saying these youtube videos are doctored? You do realize that it wasn't just one year, right? It's been happening every year since the Arab Festival took place. Tell me again, how is that being biased? Clearly you can't see what everyone who lives in Dearborn, sees and WHO IS NOT muslim.
Keep in mind you are not an expert when it comes to muslims. If you see anything good happening in Dearborn, by all means, let us know.
If this is true, my only regret is they got caught.
Amen to that.
I wish more government agencies would get "caught" doing their job.
NO surprise the ACLU wants to punish the FBI for protecting us and sharing information with other government agencies. Wasn't the lack of communication partially responsible for the Muslims that perpetrated 9-11 being successful? Yeah, sure, let's go back to being complacent and naive so we can have thousands more Americans killed. The ACLU is the enemy within. We should have the FBI start an outreach program for them, too.
I've always felt that the ACLU if part of the problem and a bunch of Communists that jumps at the opportunity to help destroy everything decent in America and our Constitution. America has been "sleeping" while the Communist Movement has been growing in America very often in the guise of such organizations and in politics. I firmly believe they have infiltrated our political system, school system, social system, and even some of our churches. They couldn't destroy us militarily, so they honed a plan to destroy us within! I believe they are behind abortion, taking prayer & God out of our schools and public buildings, and every other "movement" that defiles America morally & otherwise and our Constitution. I believe there are Communists holding very high offices where they can have a say in our laws and help to (hopefully for them and their cause) promote our "fall". Now we are finally "waking up" as seen by some of the posts here and elsewhere, but we will have to fight really hard to save our country as we know it and our freedom by electing honest, God fearing, experienced, "tried and true" Leadership. We have a huge fight on our hands "within" and it's up to each of us to do our part by doing our homework on every Official running for ANY kind of office from the entry level to the White House! As for the FBI; GREAT JOB & THANK YOU!! Keep up the good work! Spy, spy, spy on whomever and whatever you have even the slightest bit of suspicion on or about! It's for the good of America and it's American citizens that you continue to do so! Our very lives may depend on it! American's FIRST!
In short, you want to live in a theocracy, is that right Rosegirl? What about freedom? Oh, only as long as the clergy say it's okay.
No thank you. No one has taken prayer out of anything that wasn't government-mandated or in some official capacity. You think it is the government's job to force people to listen to Christian doctrine?
Why can't you keep your religion at church and let other people make their own choices in life, instead of expecting them to conform to your will?
What you want is at least as bad as communism, lady.
CEO and Rosegirl, I agree with you both.
God, some of you people just have no clue.
Rosegirl,
You're full of it in regards to the Constitution. You only want it to apply when it supports you and those like you. Guess what, these are Americans too.
You wanna talk about the Constitution, make a legal case for allowing this, and then go read my post above.
So ironic that the people who hate the ACLU, an organization dedicated to stopping government abuses against our civil rights, are usually the same people who hate big government.
Hypocrisy?
Sarah,
Lets not jump to conclusions. There are PLENTY of muslims running around our country that are NOT American Citizens and are here illegally. I have zero problem with those who accept our laws and become citizens through the appropriate means. Unfortunately, if you like it or not, there are those within our borders who want to do nothing but spread their religious views and destroy our country. We have gotten too soft and organizations such as the ACLU are ripping this country apart at the seams.
Do I agree with what the FBI did? No, actually I dont, but I understand the reasonings behind it and will fully support this decision. I invite the FBI to come to the Salvation Army church where I worship and film anytime they feel necessary.
Actually, Sarah you're full of it. Stuff like this only applies to you when you want to shove things down our throats like free birth control, which incidentally isn't part of the Constitution either. The govt. has right to protect the US for defense as noted in the Preamble.
Unhappy,
The preamble doesn't count, buddy. It serves as an introduction only, and it has zero impact on the powers and limitations of our government.
This is more of a 4th Amendment issue, so can you please find me the "national defense" exception in the 4th Amendment. Or really any where in the Bill of Rights.
Oh wait, yeah you can't, because there isn't one.
In terms of this fallacy you have about Birth Control, at another spot in the Constitution, there is the commerce clause. Health care, which encompasses that BC, is interstate commerce and subject to federal regulation.
Wayne,
Of course I understand the reasonings. However, that doesn't make it acceptable or legal.
Bart - I hate to burst your bubble but the ACLU is not in business to protect our rights or civil liberties. If you think that then any argument by way of reason and logic will not penetrate your delusion. the ACLU has an agenda that is as anti-American as it gets. I simply believe that our Constitution is our highest and most sacred of documents along with the Dec. of Independence. Too bad the ACLU doesn't hold them in high regard. However, in the end, I must admit that it seems the FBI may have overstepped their bounds. Possibly more evidence may surface. Our country cannot afford to relinquish liberties in order to gain security.
Sarah,
What I can't understand is how attending an open religious event and then speaking of your experience is somehow in violation of the constitution? When a lot of people die (as in the case of 9/11), those that care want to make sure more people don't die. It's that simple. No one is trying to undermine the truths of love and peace that Islam preaches. This is about individuals, not about religion. Islam isn't responsible for killing millions across the globe, neither is Christianity. People are responsible. But like it works in the world of sales, a good lead is the difference between success and failure. And in this case, Islam is the lead
Sorry Sarah, if you are trying to make a case that government has the right to provide free birth control then YOU need a lesson in civics. The Constitution FORBIDS the taking of property without fair compensation. Moreover, that which is taken MUST be used for public purposes, not private. This is what is commonly called the re-distribution of wealth. For me to be taxed and to use that tax to distribute to another private citizen is unconstitutional. Yes...it is done, but it is STILL unconstitutional. Regulating under the commerce clause is different than taking from one individual and giving to another. If I have misunderstood, please forgive me.
Sarah, if you read the Constitution, then you will see that the sentiments in the Preamble are echoed again in SECTION 8 of the CONSTITUTION.
Article 1 Section. 8.
Freedom,
Thanks for the civil response. If you go to the thread above, my very first post, explains all the ways this violates our Constitution. Sorry, it's kind of long, and I just don't feel like typing it all again.
Unhappy,
Now you're confusing powers with limitations. "National Defense" does not excuse the government from their limitations. If it did, they could do whatever they wanted and call it "national defense".
Actually, what you are saying is that the rights of the individual take precedence over the rights of the govt and the people. That does not exist. If that was the case, there would be no need for eminent domain. This is not a case of stopping all muslims from attending a mosque. There is no conflict of interest......If you were to read the constitution, again, then you would see what we are talking about.
Article 1 Section 8:
Unhappy,
Just stop, it's getting hard to watch.
The 1st through 10th Amendments, are your personal civil rights. They protect you from the ACTIONS and POWER of the government.
The "national defense" stated in Section 8, is a government action, or power. Ergo, the government has to be within the limitations of those first 10 Amendments in order to use those actions or powers against you.
As far as attending a Mosque...
Activity that goes on within Mosques, or religious activity is protected activity, covered by the 1st amendment.
Therefore, if we have agents of the government, coming into our houses of worship in order to gather intellegence to be used against us, we will no longer feel free to worship however we see fit. Specifically, if they base this on nothing more then religion. There goes religious freedom I guess.
What insurrections and invasions??? They're practicing their Constitutionally protected right to religion.
Sarah, NAACP v the State of Alabama was about the NAACP refusing to make the names of their members public stating it violated their freedom to associate. This was back in the day when other 'associations' like the KKK (which although it consisted of Christians, their belief system is not congruent with biblical teaching whatsoever) would actively seek out NAACP members to harm and 'terrorize'. Well we are fighting terrorism. And shouldn't we find ways to protect ourselves from today's KKK? Which is Radical Islam? The truth of the matter is the US has killed thousands of innocent people in Islamic countries over the past 30 years. It's not even so radical to think they would want a little payback. In stead of trying to fight people, why don't you and your liberal friends come up with a solution of how you suggest we go about protecting ourselves. Seriously
Freedom,
NAACP v Alabama is on point, because it speaks to the stifling of private activities. If we're no longer allowed privacy in our associations, we no longer will be honest in our associations.
That's the whole, big brother is watching thing. If radical Islam is a threat, this is what I suggest...
Building trust with the community, so they rat the bad guys out. If the Islamic community believes we are constantly spying on them, invading their privacy, and disregarding their civil rights, we will push them into the arms of the radicals, as opposed to having them feel safe coming forward to report things.
It is the Islamic community that gives us most of our heads ups, and it's not through our espionage on them.
http://www.federalnewsradio.com/?nid=&sid=2756507
We do not get to shred our Constitution every time there is a threat. These people are American too.
Sarah, just stop it. The FBI is acting in accordance with the Constitution of Article 1 Section 8. In fact, the 10 amendment confirms that is all they can do. The FBI is a govt. organization protected by the Constitution. This is what the organization was meant to do, to investigate.
Maybe you think you live in a land where there is no govt? It's not this country.
Sarah, honestly I think you make an awesome point and I have thoroughly enjoyed reading your posts and everyone trying to attack your logic. While I do think that we might have to bend and break constitutional rules here and there to protect ourselves, using honest, good heart Muslim folks to help us find the bad guys is most definitely our best bet at stopping a terrorist attack before it happens. Those that go to worship and not to plot should be our closest allies. I think people pointing fingers saying you don't understand what it's like over there and how these people live, also don't have any grasp on how involved the US military has been in the middle East over the last 30 years. That's an entire generation, and to this day we still can't stay out of the conflict. They have real emotions, tied to real events. Just like we do with 9/11. What I am afraid of, is that the discontent will continue to grow and grow as Islam is the fastest growing religion on Earth. So it is definitely in our best interests to turn the tides today and start making a good impression.
Unhappy-1583758,
What most of these people do not know is that after the 9/11 2001 Attacks, the US Law Makers (US Congress) "Expanded the Authority, Jurisdictions, Responsibilities, Duties, etc." of the Alphabet Agencies, US Military, etc..
Basically, changed the US Laws, and even suspended portions of the US Constitution, Bill of Rights, US Codes, US Laws, etc.. Including thru US Military as slipped by the US Citizens as parts of the US Military Defense Appropriations, Continuing Resolutions Appropriations (CRAs), etc..
Investigations, Findings, Recommendations of the US Congressional 9/11 Committee.
Formation of US NORTHCOM.
President Bush's Patriot Act (singular).
President Bush's Amendment to the US No Assassination Policy, 2006.
Formation of Redacted as Recommended by the US Congressional 9/11 Committee.
President Obama's Patriot Acts (plural).
Once again Sarah-3043284 your academic idealism is NOT the Real World Life or Death School of Hard Knocks. As just a comment, takes a US Constitutional Lawyer like President Obama to know how to circumvent the US Constitution, so you got (voted for) what you got (result, your "Rights" marginalized, suspended or negated).
Ardent Bush Basher:
Naomi Wolf "The End of America: Letter of Warning To A Young Patriot", October 11, 2007
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjALf12PAWc
Naomi Wolf: 'Obama can lock any US citizen up without trial'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLSeD19m3UE
Almost forgot if you do take my advise to learn about Islam by going to an Islamic Nation's College (looking at your avatar and name) at most Islamic Nations their Civil, Criminal Laws are Based on the Holy Koran (Quran). So when the US Department of State advises US Citizens, especially US News Media, about, "Every hair showing is a dagger in the eyes of Allah", take that seriously; unlike Lara Logan at Egypt did not and got punished for going around with her blonde hair showing. At many Islamic Nations their Laws can be prosecuted enforced by any Citizen of that Islamic Nation. Eventhough, it is part of our duties and responsibilities while attached to a US Embassy to provide Special Surveillance of US Citizens abroad to prevent International Incidents, covert interventions (i.e. inform the local law enforcement, authorities, etc. of crimes being or committed against US Citizens abroad to interveine), etc. there are just not enough of us left after previous and current Reductions In Forces of the US Military.
examples of covert intervention: 1. A US Military Asymmetric Warfare Officer assigned to US Embassy Indonesia keeping an eye on Barry Sorento after his mother removed his US Citizenship authorized after an investigation by the US Embassy. Barry Sorento learning the Muslim Prayers to become an Islamic Believer as required by his step father. The children at the Christian Church School he was attending first start name calling, push him around, then start to beat him, kick him in the head while he is on the ground. The US Military Asymmetric Warfare attached to the US Embassy informs the School Administrators, Teachers, and an Indonesian Police Officer, and then quickly walks away. The School Administrators, Teachers, and the Indonesian Police Officer run to the scene and save Barry Sorento from being kicked unconscience or life threatening injuries. That US Military Asymmetric Warfare Officer goes back to the US Embassy and files a report, briefs the US Military Foreign Area Officer and the US Ambassador. 2. Egypt, "Mr. X" a US Military Asymmetric Warfare Officer attached to the US Embassy, sees CBS News Reporter Lara Logan getting beaten and nearly raped clothes bra being riped off, "Mr. X" goes up to the nearby Egyptian Women and demands in Arabic "Islamic Sanctuary" for Lara Logan, the Egyptian Women go to the Egyptian Military participating in the Demonstrations, the Egyptian Women and Egyptian Military stop Lara Logan from being mob raped repeatedly and killed. "Mr.X" very quickly disappears into the crowds. "Mr. X" goes back to the US Embassy files a report, briefs the US Military Foreign Area Officer and US Ambassador. 3. "Mr N." a US Military Asymmetric Warfare Officer attached to US Embassy sees two Women tourists wearing western clothes, one from Israel one from US being pushed around by Islamic Believers. "Mr. N." informs the local Law Enforcement, that at first ignore him as "Mr. N" made the mistake of indicating where the two women originated from. "Mr. N" finally gets the local Law Enforcement to respond after threatening them (their boss will get a visit). By the time the local Law Enforcement show up the two women are dead after being raped and stabbed numerous times and bled to death. "Mr. N" goes back to the US Embassy and drinks until he passes out, files his report two days later, is chewed out by the US Military Foreign Area Officer, and received a Letter of Reprimand from the US Ambassador. "Mr. N" is exhorated in a closed door US Congressional Hearing.
The Majority Real World is NOT your Minority academic idealism Sarah-3043284
Proof once again you know nothing about Islam, Holy Koran (Quran), Islamic Laws, etc.. As it is against Islamic Laws to even consider doing anything against the Islamic Jihadists. Of course you can, then your name is place among the others on the Worldwide Fatawas (Death Sentence) that can be carried out by Any Islamic Believer.
Unhappy,
Holy crap. Article I, Section 8 applies to CONGRESS, as in the LEGISLATIVE BRANCH. The FBI is part of the EXECUTIVE BRANCH, seeing as they're law enforcement.
You win the award this week, Unhappy.
David,
Wow, all that typing and you're not even talking on topic. This has nothing to do with foreign nations, this is about U.S. law, U.S. citizens, and what's going on in the U.S.
If you're going to be sanctimonious, at least be sanctimonious ON TOPIC.
Sarah, You really are grasping at straws here.
First you said, that it wasn't in the constitution( which I pointed out to you), Now your saying that it doesn't matter because it is part of the executive branch and not the legislative branch. Just where do you think the govt. gets its money to pay the costs of the FBI? Do they have their own separate money that doesn't come from the US?
STOP ACTING LIKE YOU ARE STILL IN SCHOOL( or maybe you are) because your knowledge of the US Constitution is atrocious.
You definetly win the award this week for stupid remarks. Quick question? Are you a blond?
No I didn't, I pointed out that you quoted the preamble to make a case. Which you did.
So, you're saying that because the legislative branch has the power to tax and spend, that makes the powers of the legislative branch applicable to the executive branch? Than why do we have separation of powers??? Remeber that case law I posted, that distinctly talks about how the powers of the legislative branch go no further the the legislature.
True, and by Constitution they mean the Bill of Rights, and ENFORCING the laws. So, until the legislative branch passes a law saying it's okay to disregard the Bill of Rights for Muslims, this is unconstitutional. Furthermore, this has nothing to do with the powers the legislature has.
Is Section 8 pertaining to the powers of congress? Yes or No?
Is the FBI and law enforcement part of congress? Yes or No?
The term, box of rocks comes to mind.
Expanding on this... The U.S. Constitution is the binding, primary authority of the land. That means there are no laws the trump it. The Constitution contains the Bill of Rights, correct??? Ergo, that law the legislature passes saying that the Bill of Rights doesn't pertain to Muslims, would actually have to be a Consitutional Amendment.
What happened to your whole "I love the constitution" spiel, SG?
Sarah, You are correct. I think of this every time you speak.
No, I pointed our Article 1 Section 8 of our constitution. Unless you think the wording is just some sort of coincidence?..... Those words appear in our constitution Sarah; stop trying to act stupid.
I'm saying nothing of the sort. The executive branch and legislative branch each has its own checks and balances. From what you are saying above, your saying that the executive branch has the sole power to do whatever it wants without regards to the legislative branch.
10th Amendment ( Yes, your bill of rights, Sarah) Limits the powers of the federal government to those delegated to it by the Constitution
Article 1 Section 8: The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties,
Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and
general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall
be uniform throughout the United States;
Actually it is constitutional, since the Bill of Rights(that you refer to, aka 4th amendment) make no mention of FISA(Foreign intelligence Surveillance Act)
This is what happens when you only learn from textbooks.
Nicely Done, Since all these bombers and murderers are muslims. Wait maybe we should waist money spying on budists.
" all these bombers and murderers are muslims", that's a bit of an overstatement; UAbomber, Tim Mcveigh ring a bell?
You gotta remember your wackos and militants of any kind.
Remember McCarthyism, times have not changed much. It has just shifted from distrusting so called communists to so call terrorists (Muslim).
DAE
Absolutely correct. This crap about racial profiling has been bull to twist the Constitution from the beginning. If your criminal you are looking for is a of a certain race or ethnicity then that is what you look for not all the others. If people don't want to be watched or singled out more than others than they should police thier own people.
Phenomenal112
People are funny like that. If you kill a few thousand of them and declare that is because your religion dictates you should do so, then it is logically going to follow that those people are going to be suspicious of you. It gets worse when some of your own report the teaching of that same hatred of "anyone else" is being taught in your schools and mosques.
I find it more interesting that some want us to just go blindly along as we did before 911 and wait for the next attack. None of the other religions of people we have allowed to come live in our country teach the same killing of others if they aren't "believers". If you want to come live peacefully and unsuspected in our country, then you can't come to kill us and take over our world as part of your desire for world domination. Just doesn't work that way. If you want to live as you have for centuries, then stay at your home of origin.
Shot a man....The wackos and militants are being watched also!
The main point is that they need to be watching more than the "Last Group" that we remember for terrorism. There may be some radical Shinto group out there about to give us a surprise.
"Everybody's got something to hide, except for me and my monkey."
DAE - Nicely Done, Since all these bombers and murderers are muslims. Wait maybe we should waist money spying on budists. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The FBI is focused on our homegrown types too--Tim McVeigh and Ted Kaczynski ring a bell? However, the shootout and massacre @ Ruby Ridge in ID with Randy Weaver's family was a disaster, as was Waco @ the Branch Dividian Compound. There are a great many homegrown wackos out there that are too serious to even ignore!
I suggest they just play it straight and say 'we're watching you and be done with it! Monkeying around with all of our religious freedoms is disastrous for all of us who worship differently.
You do realize that the majority of terrorist attacks in the United States were domestic, right? Committed by white christian males.
Actually the majority of terrorist attacks were committed by atheists or agnostics.
Well...I'm glad our Government has finally figured out what the rest of us have known for a while.
These haters need to be watched. Read there book and research this cult. Educate yourself about them and what their plan for you is. Why they are even let into our country i'll never know. Our leaders have pledged to protect us and the Constitution but they are not.
Yes read "there book" before you make judgements. Research for the most part is Bias and is usually written by some hater. The book, however, is supposed to be analysed by the reader. Read the book, then Judge. Please find where it says on the Koran that all muslims should eradicate all other religions and people. "They are not what?"
Phenomenal112
Part of the problem is that they actually worship the book itself since a good many of them can't read and actually consider that particular "book" worth killing over. They have extremist views because many don't know what is in the book other than what their religious leaders have told them. And you should try arguing with logic instead of nasty spell checking.
Larry, since at least 40% of the muslims living in the US were born here, exactly to whom are you referring when you talk about "our" country? Would that be those good, white Christian folk?
shaking my head,
You think they worship their holy book? From my perspective, Christians do the same thing. I'm not affiliated with any religion, but I've noticed that many behavioral patterns that make one group despicable to another are actually common to both.
100% of the people fighting in the last Civil War were Americans.
When Americans refer to THEIR COUNTRY, they mean the one where civil rights and Constitutional rights of all American citizens are respected by the government and other so-called Americans.
When muslims demand that EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN AMERICA BE FORCED TO READ TO KORAN, which they do regularly, it shows they have no understanding whatsoever of what we call FREEDOM of choice.
When democrats demand restrictions on FREE SPEECH of all those who oppose their socialist policies and then demand that anyone enjoying their CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS be compiled into a datatbase and/or have their property seized, freedoms curtailed, monitored by government officials.
It becomes very apparent they Americans have enemies within their own nation.
I only go to church when they are having wet T-shirt contests by the way, so when you start calling names, skip the religious crap.
What about Christians who want "God back in their country" whatever that means. Our government was designed to be secular. Some Christians won't be happy until this nation is run by Christians, under Christian law, and anyone who isn't Christian or disagrees with them is some kind of suspicious and dangerous "other." They already feel that way, and when their laws are passed, they are the most invasive, big-government, anti-freedom, "moralistic" cr@p that further destroys the people of the country they say they "love" so much. They love it so much they want to beat it into submission and force crackers and the blood of their savior down everyone's throats.
And by the way, the muslims can demand whatever they want, but that doesn't mean they get their way. Just like I will not succumb to phony Christian zealots who want to destroy all freedom, I will not succumb to the demands of any other religion. But, they all can say whatever they want because one of the freedoms they love to keep for themselves, but wish others DIDN'T have at all, is the freedom of political speech.
No one has ever "demanded" I read the bible. If I wanted to use it for toilet paper they would not kill me. If I wanted to use it to start a fire,,,,,,,,,,,,,no one would have a murderous protest in the street.
No christians have blown themselves up in my neighborhood, nor have they murdered children outside a muslim school. Muslims on the other hand, just shot jewish children in France.
Muslims celebrate education by throwing acid in the faces of girls who try and go to school. God forbid they try and see a doctor.
Speaking of honor killing, when is the last time a Baptist chopped his daughters head off, strangled, drowned or beat her to death for liking America? For a muslim in America,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,it was this week.
Bad behavior for a Christian was in 1515 A.D.,,,,,,,,,,,,,for a muslim??? it is happening this very minute.
In response to 4.1:
Words from the Qur'an:
Surah:8:12
"I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle."
Suarh:8:57
"If you gain mastery over them in battle, inflict such a defeat as would terrorize them, so that they would learn a lesson and be warned."
Surah:33:60
"Truly, if the Hypocrites stir up sedition, if the agitators in the City do not desist, We shall urge you to go against them and set you over them. Then they will not be able to stay as your neighbors for any length of time. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy - a fierce slaughter - murdered, a horrible murdering."
Surah:9:5
"Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."
That good? Or do you need dozens more?
If you REALLY want to summarize islam... Google "how to beat your wife"
- the list will be islamic videos and islamic teachings of how to do it properly!
Well it's not like they gave us any reason to be suspicious!
Anybody want to see what real muslims act like. Watch the arab festivals in Dearborn, Michigan for the past few years on Youtube. This is how real muslims act, not what the media likes to portray.
Pour out your wrath on them; let your fierce anger overtake them.
Surely your wrath against mankind brings you praise, and the survivors of your wrath are restrained.
Very soon my anger against you will end and my wrath will be directed to their destruction."
The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers
Isaiah 1:24
Therefore the Lord, the LORD Almighty, the Mighty One of Israel, declares: "Ah! I will vent my wrath on my foes and avenge myself on my enemies.
Acts 7:24
He saw one of them being mistreated by an Egyptian, so he went to his defense and avenged him by killing the Egyptian.
Revelation 6:10
They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?"
You do realize you are taking all these verses out of context, right? For example, the last verse in Revelations reads:
Absolutely! That was the point!
If you just stuck to reading the articles in Playboy or Maxim, no one would get hurt.
Go ahead and hate Christians all you like, Unlike Mohammad,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Jesus never "married" a 9y/o girl. Of course girls may have matured earilier in the 7th century.
Here in the 21st century, one religion embraces, endorses and supports slavery, child rape, child marriage, spousal abuse, polygamy, revenge murders, hate crimes in all forms and terrorism in all forms.
That part is called the Islamic world.
Sadmoronsvote: But if you look carefully at the the surah verses , they are not taken out of context. In the bible verses, the christians are responding about what is being done to them. They do not start the fight unlike the verses in the Quran. Which goes to show you they are not content to just live in peace. Observe:
That is your punishment (from Allah). So taste this punishment, and know that for the unbelievers is the punishment of the Fire. Believers, whenever you encounter a hostile force of unbelievers, do not turn your backs to them in flight.
When you think about it, the two verses from the bible and the Quran fits;
Muslims will start the fight, and Christians will cry out to God for revengence.
revengence = vengence Sorry!
I hate the ACLU. They are on the wrong side of every argument. More power to you FBI.
Did you hate them when they defended Rush Limbaugh's Right to Freedom of Speech?
Probably not.
Steve, they stand up and fight againt blatant violations of the founding principles of this nation. And you say THEY are on the wrong side of every argument? Maybe you should read the Constitution sometime instead of relying on pundits and politicians to tell you what they want you to think is actually in it.
Do you have a citation for the Rush Limbaugh thing???????
Since when is standing up for your civil rights the wrong side, Steve? That's right Steve, they stand up for YOUR civil liberties too.
Well, well, well,......it's about time. Too little too late. Now they have to get rid of them.
And this was unexpected?
Not really, Bush has been wire taping our phones since the beginning of his first term, I am surprised most Muslims did not "disappear" from these mosques.
Wow, Bush is to blame for all of Obama's failures and this too. Is there anything that man can't do?????
So?? What's your point?
What's yours?
Great plan, but Obama will likely put an end to it and have the FBI agents up for disciplinary action for being too harsh.
Hopefully.
Another reason to get rid of him.
Just one more thing for Obama to apologize to the Muslims for. He's made a career out of it.
Name one apology, David. Go on. Give us a cited quote. What are you afraid of?
"I wish to express my deep regret for the reported incident," Obama wrote in the letter presented to Karzai by US ambassador Ryan Crocker. "I extend to you and the Afghan people my sincere apologies."
Am I really reading posts congratulating the FBI for breaking the law? Violations of rights of an American citizen is rarely something that's legally acceptable, and IMO acceptable only if that INDIVIDUAL has shown that their rights need to be violated, and that violation can be backed up by evidence.
Spying on an entire sector of the US population because of their beliefs is not acceptable. How is this any different than the Witch Trials? Someone has beliefs you don't like, so you burn them. People's ignorance is exactly why liberties in this country are disappearing...
numnuts, what you are reading is posts congratulating the FBI for doing what is necessary to keep Americans safe
Really? So spying on an entire section of the country based on their religion keeps us safe? How is this different from spying on people because of their skin color? Or spying on the based on their country of origin?
How about the story on the front page with the kid being shot because of a prank 911 call?
Did the government protect the victim in that case? You know, the case where the cop could have tasered the guy instead of shooting him, found out the caller was an idiot and no one had to die? Or should they be watching the Muslim kid in his dorm studying?
I can't believe people are so happy about government spying on American citizens, and they call us liberals sheeple.
@G Camomescro
You are right to say that peoples' ignorance is largely responsible for many of the problems in our country today. Are you really not aware that no law-breaking has been shown yet? Are you really not aware that the allegations about violations of the Privacy Act are concerned with how the information was shared, and not how it was gathered? And are you really not aware that, using your claim of individual rights vs. group rights, the FBI had no right to gather information on the KKK because only a few of it's members participated in lynchings or church burnings?
"And are you really not aware that, using your claim of individual rights vs. group rights, the FBI had no right to gather information on the KKK because only a few of it's members participated in lynchings or church burnings?"
They had no right to, no. But this article is about current events, for the most part. When the KKK was at it's peak I was not online reading articles about it, thus unable to post a forum comment about it.
And while the allegations are concerned with how the information was shared, I have issues with the whole situation. Targeting, data gathering, sharing, etc.
How are we supposed to get that evidence? Wait for something to happen THEN find out that they knew about along but couldn't say? I do not mind. Since I have NOTHING to hide they can come look whenever 'they' can and come look all 'they' want to!
If the people being looked at do not like it - they can leave or move to another country.
and these were the 2 liberals i was waiting for!!
so NOW its shame on you FBI, but when it comes to Obama's accomplishments its been there hasnt been another terrorist attack.
i disagree with that statement cause there have been many FAILED TERRORIST ATTACKS.
but, how do you think they did stop any of the terrorist in this country?
it wasnt by dumb luck i can tell you that.
funny how you libs bash republicans and bush for their ways of extracting info, and then wear a crown of achievment when those ways succeed!!
it took over 4 years to get the name of the runner for Osama, that would date back to GW years in office.
you think they got that name by asking politely?
maybe over tea and crumpets?
if you do think so, you need help.
Texas grace, you are an embarrassment to the notion of freedom. If you have read many articles on terrorist activity you would know that it takes months to years to plan a successful terrorist attack. Therefore, there would be sufficient criminal activity prior to the attack that would warrant a legal FBI investigation and allow the government to prevent the attack without effectively suspending the Constitution and spying on law-abiding citizens. If you are happy living in a police state perhaps you are the one who should move and leave those of us interested in preserving liberty here.
If you want to hunt elephants, ya gotta go where the elephants live.
JoeMike~
Assuming you're older than 11 (and I'm not convinced you are) you've been living in a Police State for sometime.
joemike, are you really as stupid as you appear to be? Same with phenom, You like to TALK liberty but would never put your life on the line FOR liberty.
denver bill,
The definition of "elephant" changes according to the political winds. All the elephants are here, at home. That's why our prisons have more people in them, in raw numbers AND per capita, than dictatorships, communist regimes, and all the other "scummy" types of governments that you probably despise for "hating" freedom. Seems like the ones that hate freedom are living here, in this country, wrapping themselves up in the flag and preaching on about "keeping us safe" and being "tough on crime."
mont. bill,
What liberties have you protected? Even if you've been in the armed forces you haven't exactly been protecting our freedoms, if you'll pardon my blunt observation. The ones destroying freedom are the ones who write our laws... and from your attitude I have to wonder if you care about freedom at all or if you are just using it as a strawman to puff your ego up over military service at the expense of someone who may (or may not) have served themselves. You have no idea.
Joemike404
Are you for real? And how do you suppose the FBI finds out about the criminal activity you are referring to? ESP? Does the FBI instinctively know when criminal activity is happening then start an investigation? Yes it takes years to plan a terrorist attack, and it also takes years to for the FBI to infiltrate criminal groups, sometimes decades, and to do this it takes inside information. Not only do they need to know who's involved but who their affiliates are, without spying on group activity we might as well close down the FBI & the CIA. Here's one for you, lets talk about the Hell's Angels, a murderous bunch for years that the FBI is STILL infiltrating to shut down major crime activities; do you have a problem with that also? They are all home grown Americans, but terrorists in their own right.
ConstitutionThumper,
Since we're using euphemisms, the elephants I refer to are the ones who want to kill me just because I'm American. When the so-called political wind shifts, what and where are your elephants?
surefire - Yes I know we've been living in a police state for some time. Apparently though you think that's okay and I don't. And BTW - I'm 56.
Mont. Bill - Liberty is first and foremost an idea and ideas are perpetuated when they are talked about. Beyond that you have no idea what I may or may not have done or would do in the future. It would seem the best you can do is make an argument by innuendo.
Ken - they find out about criminal activity by monitoring for criminal events not by engaging in wholesale, unrestricted surveillance of entire religious groups.
denver bill,
If things were completely reversed, and the attitudes were the same, and you had muslims (or atheists, or Buddhists, or whatever) writing our laws, you may find Christian churches subjected to the same sort of thing the FBI is doing. You may find public opinion swinging in favor of "watching" those dangerous, crusading Christians.
Don't think it can't happen just because it isn't happening now. You reap what you sow.
The danger of constantly looking for enemies is that you will find them even when they are not there. Of course, if you act superior to everyone else and treat all others as potential criminals and killers, you are likely to gain many enemies so that no matter where you look someone in your sight will probably hate you. Not for your freedom. No. They don't take away your freedom, you do that willingly. They will hate you because you have put yourself above them arbitrarily and, in their view, most hypocritically, and have acted against them out of ignorance or spite or fear or all of these things.
The danger of such a worldview becoming popular in a free country is that that country won't be free for long. Of course, I don't believe we live in a free country, and paranoia and fear of "other" people who are different abounds. No one who lives in fear believes in rights, they only believe in "safety."
Constitution Thumper,
"If things were completely reversed, and the attitudes were the same, and you had muslims (or atheists, or Buddhists, or whatever) writing our laws, you may find Christian churches subjected to the same sort of thing the FBI is doing."
Your argument is valid in that what you say has been true at various times, such as the Middle East, Bosnia, or Northern Ireland, to name just a few examples. However, it is also unsound, in that your premise that the attitudes are the same is not true in the United States today. Not every member of every religion hates the United States for it's mere existence. And, while I would never claim that all muslims hate us without reason, I can certainly make the claim that most who hate us without reasons (other than that we exist) are radical muslims. Until it is shown (which it may be!) that the FBI operated illegally in this matter, I support their actions. I do not believe it infringes on my personal freedom, and I will wait for evidence that we are sliding down your slippery slope before changing my mind.
"The danger of constantly looking for enemies is that you will find them even when they are not there."
We didn't have to look for radical muslim enemies. They found us. They are not just "there", they are also "here". Ignore that at your peril.
Okay so how did the reporter get this info did he spy on the FBI or is repeating what someone told him?
You need to learn how to read. Second paragraph.
FREEDON OF INFORMATION LAWSUIT. Read the article.
FREEDOM OF INFORMATION LAWSUIT. Use spell check.
Good for the FBI, sounds like they are doing their job. If the Muslims don't like what is going on then get the hell out of this country. There must be someplace they can go and practice their religion with out most people wondering if they are terrorists, so find that place and go.
Why do you hate America?
Why do you hate the constitution and its Freedom of Religion clause? Why do blame an entire religion based on the actions of a few. By that logic we should also spy on Catholic priests, I don't hear you say peep about them. They are terrorizing our children right? Maybe you can take your Nazi principles and go to place where they accept your kind. Oh wait that place is America isn't it. Enjoying your freedom of speech but against people practicing freedom of religion huh.
Look at the way the Liberal government under obama is treating the Catholic Church now. It is disgraceful the it goes against our constitution. In a liberals point of view it is perfectly OK. This is not a perfect world. It is very dangerous because of jealousy and evil. It is prudent to protect our citizens and alarming that you are willing to forego our safety and protection because of your inconsiderate theory.
Islam is not a religion, it's a distributed form of government.
Phenomenal12 said: "Why do blame an entire religion based on the actions of a few."
The more I read the more I think this statement is wrong. I'm beginning to believe that "the few" you refer to are the ones who DON'T want to destroy non-believers and the vast majority are in fact radical.
Really because there are 1.7 billion Muslims in the world. If we really believed in the things people like you think, the FBI would not be able to help you.
Well the majority are radical. There are certain countries where there is a high muslim population are not that radical, such as Malaysia and some of the other asian countries. But even they have Shariah law. But the Middle East and Africa are highly radical and make up a majority of the population of muslims.
When are they going to send spies in to Catholic churches to find all the pedophiles?
Oh wait, religious bigotry is ok only if it's against Muslims.
good.
The funniest part of this is, you'll never hear of an outreach program founded by Muslims to try and connect with their communities.
You mean if it is only against christians. That's what you wanted to say. If you didn't think so, then you would have spoken out about this bigotry a long time ago to MSNBC.
Unhappy, Christians control all three branches and all levels of government. They dominate the command structure of the most powerful military force that has ever existed on Earth. They have a near-monopoly over the entire U.S. economy. And Christians exercise a voter majority large enough that that can, and regularly do, use to violate the constitutional liberties of other Americans.
Christians are NOT @!$%#ing persecuted.
Really, Obama is not a christian and he controls the executive branch. So where are you getting that christians are all powerful?
Second, it is obvious that you have never left the country nor spoken to someone who was an immigrant from those countries.
This is the first step. Now we need to monitor the godless commie pukes making up the ACLU.
The ACLU are the only patriots left in this nation.
Right on Nazi, then we can send them all to Guantanamo and maybe even put them work and death camps.
Yeah, right on Airborn, f$%@ civil liberties.
You and I, we got nothing to hide. F#$% freedom! Long live big, intrusive, unconstitutional government! They are as blameless as you and me. They don't abuse their power; people abuse FREEDOM and so they need someone to come down hard on their a$$es, that's what the government is for. F$%#ing dope-smoking commie liberal b@st@rds think they can read the Constitution... the only ones who understand the Constitution are you, me, and the guy with his foot on the necks of those pot-smoking scumbags... oh, and down with the muslims, too.
The ACLU is a group of brown shirted thugs, funded by a dope smoking socialist who used to aid the Nazis in gathering up jewish wealth. George Soros bought them years ago.
Yeah MPF, because the brownshirts were all about defending civil liberties...
Too bad it was uncovered.
Uncovered, it was obvious.
If you have done no wrong, why do you care that you are being looked at?
If they've done nothing wrong, why are we wasting resources targeting them?
Our tax dollars wasted on suspicion. Why not use it to pay higher salaries for our troops?
Would you mind if I kept constant supervision of you? After all, I'm sure you're doing no wrong.
Why care? Well you see Wallace, we have this thing called the "Bill of Rights..."
It's only spying if one is caught doing something wrong. Otherwise, it only amounts to being seen living life as a decent human being.
It is spying if the FBI does it, they are paid to do it. "Otherwise, it only amounts to being seen living life as a decent human being." Doing that would mean they are getting paid for pretty much nothing then right.
Right, John, until peaceful activity is considered illegal or suspicious. What planet are you from?
John, you are wrong on so many levels. Watching someone for days without their consent is spying, even stalking in some Western countries. How would you like it if five people followed you everywhere you went and watched you sleep at night? You got nothing to hide right so there should be no problem.
I think it's great. I'm sorry, but if we want to stop radical islamist terrorists, tactics like this are going to have to be utilized. I have no issues with racial profiling when you talk about airport security targeting Middle Eastern/Persian individuals at the airport for heightened security measures either. However, we still have North Africa, several regions between the Middle East and Russia (many fitting the description of caucasian), Indonesia and the Phililipines that have huge muslim populations , that do not fit that profile. I know we're treading a fine line, but to catch a criminal, you have to think like a criminal, and most importantly, mingle with criminals. I'm not saying muslims are criminals, but, mosques are the best choice for radical islamists to blend and recruit.
I will give you that, and for the most parts of Muslim communities have condone these so called secret investigations.
Name one "muslim leader" who has spoken out against slavery, abuse of women or terrorism?
Your not nice, maybe you ought to go and live with them for a while and see what is really going on, or better yet, how bout you got back 3 centuries ago when your people where killing my ancestors so that this so called, Land of the free, can be hated.
I have lived with them. When you see them raping boys and young men, abusing women, lying stealing and preaching hatred and death to everyone from the west you know what kind of people they really are.
This was not "three centuries ago" by the way, it was in 2008.
Women who support islam are like Jews who support Hitler and the Nazis, they are incredibly ignorant and utterly uninformed. It makes it easy to understand why men did not want them to vote.
paidmyfee
Name one "muslim leader" who has spoken out against slavery, abuse of women or terrorism?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheikh_Mujibur_Rahman
Although most Bengali's would disagree with many parts of this article.
Really funny. The US State Department and it's sister organization, Catholic Charities, let them in and the FBI and NYPD go after them on surveillance for domestic terrorism.
Really and where they really need to be at is the churches of where Greenspan, J.P Morgan, AIG, all those thieves who take everyone money and everyone homes they are the ones who probably paid Bin Ladin to crash into the towers to take focus off of what they were doing to the economy. Ha ha, land of everyone is getting screwed, and my ancestors are probably laughing.
Are you 1/248th native american and scrambling for benefits?
Wish they would have spied on them before 9-11. Thank God for programs like the FBI so that we can protect this country.
Anyone that does not understand the threat that Islam has to this country needs to go and read the Koran - it is not a religion of peace.
Like the 9/11 bombers, and the underwear bombers were all American citizens right? The Time square bomber was but he went to Pakistan and went all loony there. That investigation was successful. But, would they have found him at the mosque? That is the question.
A large majority of the 9/11 murderers were Saudi Arabian.
That is the point, looking for them in an American mosque is not the most effective startegy, but, I guess you have to start somewhere right.
Is the San Francisco Mosque Guantanimo West?
We would only be spying on them if they still were covering up for those among them that are still planning to harm us. All organized religion hates the United States of America and all that it stands for. It is time to take a closer look at our Constitution and ask ourselves if Freedom of Religion may be the undoing of our way of life and if so, we need to change the Bill of Rights to the Bill of Rights AND Responsibilities and spell out what Freedom of Religion IS and what it IS NOT!
Quit sugar-coating everything....the Muslim community has caused the wold more trouble lately than any other problems combined. Like it or not, this country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles. It is not "bigotry", the buzzword for losers, when you monitor a group of people that produce more terrorists than anyone else.
And America has a highest crime rate in the world check DOJ reports. Who is monitering us?
we have the highest crime rate because criminals get away with crimes every day. the lawyers who know they're guilty. the judges have to let them off on technicalities. there are endless appeals. the jails are like country clubs with all of the prisoners rights. the media has to use the word "allegedly" every time they report on a story. its all ridiculous.
bark you know for someone to be called a criminal they have to be arrested and convicted right? So that means that criminal rate applies to the people that were arrested and convicted for their crimes. Otherwise they would not be a criminal as defined by law and are not apart of that statistic.
Like most everything the aclu started out as a good thing then morphed into something that is no longer responsible or reasonable. If anyone in the U.S. is helping to raise cash to wage war on us or do us harm the F.B.I. is just doing it's job.
Well then the FBI should go to Bush and all the other rich thieves, who have probably taken your home or someone you know or someone close to you that you know. How bout them and their church? And see what they are teaching them there, they're the real crooks, not only that but the Muslims pay their taxes to have their Mosques and their right to live here in the land of he free whom by the way if it weren't free the American Indians ought to just revolt of all of your asses, but your all doing it to yourselves so have fun.
The Moslems should not feel singled out. In case you haven't noticed, civil liberties no longer exist in the USA and all citizens are routinely spied on without warrant, and you can even be summarily assassinated. Quit the corporate/government media and read what your prostitute politicians have really been doing; e.g., the Patriot Act, NDAA, endless sham wars, etc.
As lop sided as DOD force makes this debate, at least little glimmers of the truth get out..
Way to controversial for DOD profiteering compromised show biz news..