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Subscribe to RSSCombat veterans of the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts share their experiences with PTSD, and their reaction to reports that Army Staff Sgt. Robert Bales allegedly gunned down 17 Afghan civilians. Msnbc.com's Kari Huus reports.
Warning: This report contains strong language.
LOS ANGELES – The young men who answer the phones at the National Veterans Foundation's hotline for troubled veterans speak with an authority that comes from having faced down the same demons that plague their callers.
All are combat veterans, having served up to four tours of duty in Iraq and Afghanistan, and all have struggled with either PTSD or traumatic brain injury – the signature wounds of these conflicts – or both.
For them, the story of Army Staff Sgt. Robert Bales, accused of murdering 17 Afghan civilians during his fourth combat deployment, triggers mixed emotions – horror over the senseless rampage but also empathy for a soldier who, in their view, apparently was pushed beyond the breaking point. But their more immediate concern is the impact it may have on the troubled voices on the other end of the phone lines they answer each day.
"One of the biggest issues we have … is the vets don’t get the jobs," said Apolonio Munoz III, 28, an Army veteran deployed during the U.S. invasion of Iraq in 2003 who works for the hotline while pursuing a social work degree. "[Employers] think they are whack-jobs and they’re all going to be cold-blooded killers, they’re going to come in and shoot up the place, which is not the situation."
Munoz and several other former soldiers who answer the hotline agreed to share with msnbc.com their thoughts on PTSD, the stresses of war and the news that Bales – a 38-year-old soldier with a clean military record – allegedly crept into an Afghan village at night on March 11 and slaughtered Afghan civilians, including women and children.
"It’s an absolute tragedy, and it never should have happened," Cameron White, 31, who served two tours of duty in Iraq with the Marines before leaving the military and becoming a college student and anti-war activist, said of the massacre in Kandahar province. He said he believes the killing were "a byproduct of a failed policy that continues to put traumatized troops out on the battlefield when they shouldn’t be there."
Their comments will likely presage parts of Bales' trial, in which the cumulative effects of combat deployments and the degree to which PTSD and TBI (traumatic brain injury) can be linked to violence will almost certainly play a role.
Bales, who has been charged with 17 counts of premeditated murder along with other charges, suffered a brain injury in Iraq but was not diagnosed as suffering from PTSD. His defense is expected to argue, however, that he suffered "diminished capacity" as a result of the injury and possibly undiagnosed PTSD. Bales, who is being held in detention at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, has not yet entered a plea to the charges, but his civilian defense attorney, John Henry Browne, has indicated he expects to mount a vigorous defense based in part on his client’s mental state.
How staff Sgt. Bales lawyers are fighting for his life
Many experts also expect the defense to produce expert witnesses to testify about the effects on mental health of repeat combat deployments. But just as with PTSD and TBI, the record is incomplete, as the Iraq and Afghan conflicts mark the first time the U.S. has cycled soldiers in and out of combat so many times.
The latter issue resonates loudly with the former soldiers who answer the hot line.
'Yes, I killed Iraqis'
White said that his experiences in Iraq led him to believe that not even the most hardened soldier is immune to meltdown amid the repeated stresses of combat.
James Cheng / msnbc.com
Left to right, Rich Rudnick, Wendell Guillermo and Apolonio E. Muñoz III work at the National Veterans Foundation in Los Angeles.
"I think when you say … 'that’s not me' or ‘that would never happen to me,' I think anybody that says that is just lying to themselves," he said. "… Something like that could happen to any one of us."
Another hot line operator, Freddy Cordova, 29, who served four tours in Iraq from 2003 to 2008, said the mental health evaluations he received between deployments were cursory at best.
In an evaluation after his first deployment, Cordova said he answered 'yes' to most of the combat-related questions: "Yes, I saw dead people. Yes, I saw dead Americans. Yes, I fired my weapon. Yes, I killed Iraqis. Yes, I killed the enemy."
"I didn’t report that I was a threat to others, but I put that I would like to speak to somebody," he said. "What did the Army turn around to do? They just overlook it. Four months later, I’m in Iraq again."
Floyd "Shad" Meshad, founder and president of the National Veterans Foundation and a psychiatric social worker with 40 years' experience working with combat veterans, said he has repeatedly seen the effects to overexposure to the horrors of war.
"We know that soldiers, when they have seen too much combat, they will either implode – in suicide – or explode," he said. "The military just continues to send people back into combat like they were rifles, just kind of cleans them up and sends them back in. … I don’t want to say that everybody flips out like this, but a significant number do."
James Cheng / msnbc.com
Floyd 'Shad' Meshad, founder and president of the nonprofit National Veterans Foundation.
Meshad started his career as an Army mental health officer in Vietnam and was instrumental in developing a national network of community-based Veteran Centers, offering counseling, referrals and readjustment assistance, beginning in the 1970s. He has served as an expert witness in about a dozen trials for veterans facing the death penalty, he said, and appeared in court for hundreds of others facing lesser charges.
When Bales was identified as the suspect in the Afghan killings, Meshad rushed the soldier's defense team an advance copy of a new book published by NVF, "Attorney's Guide to Defending Veterans in Criminal Court."
But he said he fears that politics -- including the need to appease the Afghan government -- may outweigh the role of mental health factors in the court's ruling on the Afghanistan slayings.
"They are going to cook Bales," he predicted.
But even the mention of PTSD and Bales in the same sentence worries Matthew Friedman, executive director of the National Center for PTSD under the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs.
"It will be a terrible thing if people with PTSD were painted with a Sgt. Bales paintbrush. It’s just not appropriate," said Friedman, who has been involved in research and treatment of PTSD for 35 years and is also a professor of psychiatry, toxicology and pharmacology at Dartmouth Medical School. "There is evidence that some people with PTSD may exhibit irritable or aggressive behavior at times. There’s no evidence that this kind of indiscriminate violence is a symptom of PTSD."
And he said that Bales’ history before joining the military – which included financial fraud and an assault case in Washington state – signaled that he was a troubled individual.
Referrals and suicide intervention
The veterans working the NVF hot line have what most experts consider textbook cases of PTSD. They have struggled with anxiety, anger and hyper-vigilance brought home from the combat zone. For some, visiting a shopping mall is a daunting experience, as they find themselves constantly scanning for potential threats. Even as these men recover and pursue civilian jobs and studies, some yell in their sleep, dream about explosions or are startled by loud noises or a glimpse of trash along the road that looks like an IED.
Most of the time, experts say, the damage from repeated exposure to combat plays out in insidious ways. It contributes to divorce and substance abuse, and takes a toll on the mental health of children. According to the Center for New American Security, 18 vets commit suicide every day.
The NVF hotline has been fielding between 11,000 and 12,000 calls a year over the last several years. Four or five a month come from veterans, or even soldiers still in service, who are dangerously depressed and threatening suicide, Meshad said.
Most others are from frustrated veterans and family members who need help navigating the complex VA benefits process, in need of legal assistance, substance abuse treatment or job training. NVF employees pride themselves in walking them through every step, and then following through if they encounter problems.
Each week, NVF staff does rounds in a van to check in on homeless veterans – mostly older Vietnam era veterans who tend to cluster together in encampments after losing jobs and families to mental illness and addiction.
To these young veterans serving at NVF, the weekly workload highlights the need for more attention to the mental health of soldiers. In the case of the massacre in Afghanistan, they suggest, responsibility for that mental health lies with more than one individual.
"My reaction to Sergeant Bales … was shock," said Jose Castro, an Army veteran of both Iraq and Afghanistan. "But, you know, when certain things are ignored about an individual soldier… and people are … forced into situations that that aren’t healthy … (that) ultimately can lead to something like this. It’s bound to happen."
"What do you expect for a guy who’s been deployed four times? Losing buddies, getting hurt, being in firefights and so forth," agreed Army veteran Wendell Guillermo, 26. "And whether or not the military wants to acknowledge it … there is a breaking point."
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Leave a Comment:
what about the guy that kill 13 people at fort hood.tx that was 2 years ago ,an still no trail
Where would the trail lead him to? Oh you mean trial.
sorry about that ( trial)
Good point!
"There is all this clamor to try this guy quickly and execute him, never mind
his having suffered a traumatic brain injury."
Where is all this clamor that you speak of? Most (not all, I'll give you that) of the articles and posts I have read have been very supportive and understanding of Bales and his condition. I have not read anything by anyone saying that he should be executed. (Except for the Afghans of course)
I feel for Bales and his family. He was pushed to the breaking point. Used over and over again. We should not treat our soldiers this way.
The bush after taste will be there for a long, long, time. I sure do hope it was all worth it for him (bush) when he looks in a mirror and that what he sees resembles his Christian values and not the faces of the dead he helped along.
when bush looks into the mirror he sees charles manson
I have heard this NVF does a lot of good...no, am not connected, but if you are inclined to donate to their hotline efforts, it will surely help veterans and their families. The link in the first sentence of this article will take you to their site.
The Bush maid long ago covered up all the mirrors.
Spiritus333 - I was on a New York Times blog just a couple of days after the incident and the commenters on there were screaming for his head. My comment was not supportive of Bales' actions but a description of the predicaments that put him there. The times censored my comment and pulled it off. This whole disastrous situation is more an indictment of the peoples of Afghanistan and America, than it is of Sgt. Bales. Shame on all of us for letting this war stretch on for 11 years. Longer than both world wars and Korea combined. Our soldiers put up with this 11 year (and running) war, fighting for a people that hate them, only to come home to joblessness and a country that is self absorbed and doesn't care about them. No wonder America is sinking like an anchor. Our WW2 generation made us great with their heart, teamwork, and generosity. We have managed to dismantle that in two generations. America is no longer great.
US is pissing away trillions of dollars on useless wars which only benefit the military industrial complex. It is absolutely CRIMINAL to continue the current drunken war spending.
While Bales must answer to his crime it must be take in the context of his brain injuries and PTSD. In a larger context he is a victim like many other warriors of a war gone too far and long and going nowhere. Some might want him taken to the nearest tree and hung but it is more complicated than that and more needs to be considered. I also do not agree with the gov't giving $50K for each victim so quickly- they should let due process unfold first before making reparations.
I heard the Fort Hood shooter is going to trial this summer ('12).
Hey Herman, You didn't have to apologize for your misspell. I understood your point buddy!
I have a question for anybody with information. Yesterday on CNN I heard an interview with a former military doctor. She said that the malaria drug given in Afghanistan to the troops has been linked to psychotic breaks as in the four Ft Bragg cases. Anybody know more about this and what the army is doing about this drug?
Trial for Major Hassan is supposed to be this June or July. A Texan
We talk about "failed war policy" and "four tours" to explain this. How about sometimes somebody just goes crazy and does something horrible? In my opinion speculation to try to give "insight" into "big issues" using this tragedy is just that - pure speculation.
People are not machines that don't do anything until the right levers are pushed. I have worked with the mentally ill and can tell you people are not made perfect and then "broken" by something. People can just do things for no good reason.
Sgt Bales defense team being stonewalled by Army. I tagged my states representative on armed services and one of my senators. It's your turn now.
lonereb, interesting angle...
God Bless Shad and the Veterans from the National Veterans Foundation for doing such an incredible job. I have the honor of knowing them personally, and can say that the work they do is truly a labor of love. There is still so much that needs to be done. Unfortunately there is so much red tape with the V.A., that upon returning home, many of our Veterans are just cast aside and forgotten. I ask you please share this article, and visit the NVF website www.nvf.org. The National Veterans Foundation is an amazing organization that needs our support. We need to spread the word, that there is help out there for those who need it, as well as help the NVF get the help they need to continue their crusade. We can argue until the end of time about whether a war is justified or not...the bottom line is these returning Vets, both men and women, are in desperate need of our help and support. We can ALL become part of the solution. Thanks.
When Obama looks into the mirror he sees Bush and still continues the war with a 100,000 troop surge to top it all.
The 800 lb gorilla in the room...Nobody really wants to talk about the "breaking point". Otherwise, why do you have soldiers sent deployment after deployment after deployment? In my grandfather's day, you went over, did your tour, and came home. Of course, back then you had a draft, so that every able-bodied swinging jack had a chance to share the pain and share the gain. Now, 1%, one percent of the able bodied public is responsible for keeping the wolf at the door. You have always had soldiers going nuts (War is Hell, after all), but now, with substandard mental health services and empty lip service, soldiers are just like weapons...cleaned up and shoved back into service.
The brass don't like to talk about it, because the fact is you need warm bodies to fight a war. Yet our military is downsizing. SOMEONE explain the logic of that to me.
Mr Sanders.... the military is downsizing because the USA is broke. It's broke because from 2001-2009, the POTUS started 2 wars in the Middle East while handing out HUGE tax cuts. No time in our history did we ever fight wars while simultaneously handing over HUGE sums of money in tax relief. Now, we have no choice but to downsize. There's no money to stay the course.
I saw something in this article that really surprised me..... "18 vets commit suicide every day"
Do we really lose 6570 Veterans to suicide annually? That seems like a huge number.
I also heard a senator asking General Allen (cspan) about an investigation of military hospitals changing PTSD diagnosis to pre existing mental disability so the vet loses his benefits for cost cutting reasons WTF is going on inthis country.
It's typical of the military to throw Soldiers under the bus, especially if there is a cost savings involved. I was around for the last draw down and saw many excellent Soldiers forced out of the military for stupid reasons. Since the war on terror started, Soldiers could be fat, pot smoking wife beaters and I couldn't put them out because we needed the bodies.
Now if you read the Army Times, you'll notice all the articles on how the Army is going to start putting everyone who is not perfect out (again). I have a suggestion I'd like to make to the Pentagon people, let's start by cleaning you out! I'm amazed every time I go there to see all these senior officers walking around without a combat patch on their right shoulder. How have you been in the military for 15 plus years and not deployed to combat considering we've been at a constant state of war for 11 of those years? Because you are hiding out, pushing paper and making up new policies to put war fighters out of the military instead of trimming the tree from the top!
OK, I'm done ranting!
It's a generalization of statistics taken over the years of the wars. During all of that time 6570 is the number of troops who committed suicide annually.
Would you say the same about Nazi or Al Qaida members?
"But, you know, when certain things are ignored about an individual soldier… and people are … forced into situations that that aren’t healthy … (that) ultimately can lead to something like this. It’s bound to happen."
The article states that "the Iraq and Afghan conflicts mark the first time the U.S. has cycled soldiers in and out of combat so many times". I wonder if this is really true.
Two of my uncles were in combat situations for the entire length of World War II. I'm not saying this is good, or implying any criticism of today's soldiers whom I admire greatly. (And in fact one of my uncles suffered from what these days would be called PTSD and alcoholism for the rest of his life.) But just as a point of fact, is the repeated exposure to combat really unique to these two conflicts?
Hi billVA, What did your uncles do and what branch were they in?
My Dad and uncles all served in WWII. WWII went from Dec 41 to Sep 45 not quite 4 years. Not to denigrate or belittle anything my Dad and uncles did, they weren't constantly in combat. They first had to be trained.
According to FINDING YOUR FATHER'S WAR, a book about how to reasearch ALL things related to WWII service, The 32nd INF DIV was the longest serving DIVISION in COMBAT out of all of the US ARMIES: days of combat - 635 days. Thats 1.7 years of combat. The rest was training and R&R. That's significantly different from 4 1 year deployments.
I can't speak for Marines or Navy.
bill
You would be surprised to hear how many guys did several tours in NAM.
bob
What's unique is that we have been there for eleven years. So Bales, who was on his fourth tour, was in his 7th year of war. Yes he got a year at home between years in the trenches, years to sit and stew, knowing he was going back. You'll notice that front running candidates for president, the guys that are the deciders for sending our middle class kids into war, do not have their own children in the military. Nor do the rich. Time for the draft, this time without deferrments.
PJ - great point
Going back a little over 20 years ago, I could choose full ROTC to one of the best University's in the nation or West Point...knowing that, this was my attempt at not being a wild (yet smart) child, I chose the ROTC - we had a class, once a week - I was Army, that day we had a visiting Air Force Colonel. He talked and then it was question time (a class). He had said in his speech, that as 1st Lt.'s - "You have three missions, 1 - Follow orders, 2 - Protect your men, 3- Protect yourself. "
I raised my hand and went back to that spiel and asked, "What if you know that the orders will put your men in jeopardy - and not accomplish the mission?" (I was the only female in the room, so this started a ooohh and ahhh by the others).... He said, "That would NEVER happen." I raised my hand again, "With all due respect Sir, it did happen in Vietnam over and over, Army in the field knew a lot more than those sitting at desks in Washington." He wanted an example - OK, I named something similar to "Hamburger Hill." Then he says, "Well, as an Lt., what would you do?" I said, "I would protect my men first." .... he didn't bat an eyelash or miss a beat when he then stated, "Well, you can be replaced." ....obviously this dragged on longer, were stupid orders really more important than a person's life, etc.... apparently, not much has changed - what this man did was reprehensible and I don't think he did it alone, but he is protecting his men, for better or for worse... the problem is, what desk jockey sent him on a fifth tour? What were the commanders at this base doing? This base also had "The Kill Team" - shooting civilians for sport...that was 6 months ago, they still hadn't weeded out those who shouldn't be there?
PS: I was asked to "apologize for your line of questioning in writing." A 60 year old Colonel couldn't handle questions from an 18 year old girl?....
Good point. The meat grinders described in so many first person accounts of repeated combat in places like the invasion of Normandy, Ardennes, Hurtgen, Iwo Jima, Okinowa, etc. Was probably far more distressing on the individual soldier than the combat situations our soldiers are having to deal with now. The casualty rates tell the story. Very few of them are having to deal with the after effects of seeing wholesale carnage visited upon their units and seeing the horrific nonstop parade of non survivable injures and privations endured by all their buddies. The WW2 vets just had to bury those memories and move on. My dad served in Korea and endued human wave attacks from the Chinese and saw many of his buddies blown apart. He never wanted to dredge up those memories and I don't blame him. I think that's how many of these older vets dealt with their demons. Bury them deep and don't talk about them to anyone. It'a a helluva burden to have to carry through life but it seems to have been effective for most vets of prior wars.
four tours today equals more combat time than my uncle served from Pearl Harbor to VJ day.
The USA just doesn't understand these men can't go back to war over and over again because the body can't get do it plain and simple or this same thing will happen over and over again.
To me this is just the tip of the iceberg wait until more icebergs start breaking off and it isn't going to be pretty.
All of this continual sending the same men back so many times had better stop or there will be more trouble ahead.
MAY GOD GIVE ALL OUR MEN AND WOMEN THE STRENGTH TO GO THROUGH THIS REALLY TOUGH TIMES NOW AND FOR ALL TIME AS I AM SURE HE WILL!!!
Now you are witnessing the downside to having a paid professional army as opposed to a draft that ensures that all men participate. Most Americans have NO skin in the game and the fact that there are multiple deployments does not even resonate with them.
A draft would be nice to have.
Except Congress and the 1%ers would exempt them selves from it . That leaves us the 99%ers , the poor , and underprivileged to do the fighting once again.
bob
You dopes that want a draft are wrong. We have the greatest fighting force(volunteer) in the history of the world and you want to piss that away with draftees that don't want to be there?
You reinstitute the draft and you would have thousands of people marhing in front of the White House. They don't hear the American people who are clamoring for bring the troops home. We are not visible here on these blogs. They ignore what the people actually want. Yes I do. Do you think that everybody is there because they want to be. Did you know that many National Guard units have been sent to Iraq and Afghanistan? When Katrina hit New Orleans the Texas National guard had to help because the Louisianna Guard was in Iraq. We in Texas are abit smarter we have 2 different Guard units one that can be federalised and one that can't.
EWUSNRT - I have to agree with you on that, already currently or have served with knuckleheads that don't want to be enlisted and they vollunteered just to relize that this isnt for them. Now compound that with an individual that is drafted who REALY does not want to serve, that is just a recipie for disaster. It is bad enough with RIF going on and extened or multiple tours taking place but that is what we all raised the right hands to do. and on this note Vets will take care of Vets if no one else will because at the end of the day no matter where or how you served we all stood side by side and served together..
You want to know who is to blame for this situation? You and me. Get out and vote next Nov. Find a candidate (if they exist) who will work for America-and do what is right for the vets and our armed forces.
There are NO candidates that really give a crap about what Americans want ------or what America needs. Politicians are full of crap.....they all say what you want to hear, and then do what they want to do. As long as Democrats and Republicans rule Washington, we will all be screwed. Stop re-electing these same idiots to serve the American people. There should be term limits (just like the presidents have).....
When you have a small volunteer force the our politicians engage us in two lengthy wars the end result is multiple deployments and psychological problems. Less then 1% of our populace are in the military, and I believe when congress declares war that the draft should be enacted as a consequence, if that had occurred these two wars would have ended fast because everyone would have had someone at risk.... Most civilians have no idea what military service is like, let alone being in combat, and since it does not affect them they simply don't care. I spent 25 years in the army and my son was killed in Afghanistan, he did multiple tours in Iraq, and I sure he had some sort of PTSD... Anyone that goes into combat does..
the problem is that modern American children are sheltered from the realities of the real world- in many countries children are surrounded by killings- not so for most Americans- wars should be fought w/paid killers not soldiers - also they should limit combat tours to 2 4 to 5 is too many most children now days dont even see animals die like they did when more lived on a farm- death is a grim reality of living- war is hell -secure our borders and bring them home- this guy had many issues even before this- and when you go killing to killing its premed- when someone goes crazy and snaps its like an explosion- this guy thought about this crime and is hiding behind the over used PTSD syndrome- I'm a vet
freelunch
It is quite clear you have never had periods of blind rage !!! If you had than you would feel differently . You claim to be a vet ok. But if you were than you must have been a REMP !!! As all combat vets know P.T.S.D. has many faces and even more systems .
bob
For got to mention this little tidbit :
By the V.A.s own study People with chronic P.T.S.D. are 27% more likely to suffer a stress related heart attack than the rest of the population . Plus our suicide rate is off the charts .
Whose fault is that? Why are our war dead from Iraq and Afghanistan flown in to Dover under the cover of night? Why don't we see the fighting on our Nightly News like in Viet Nam? Where are the flag draped coffins. Only at the start of the war did we see anything, and it looked exactly like a video game or a great fireworks show...no blood, no body parts all over the street. Bush made sure we didn't see the horrible parts of this war and Obama has kept that secret as well. What is on the news now that is worth anything?
I have a daughter who when she was 12 suffered from PTSD because of a domestic violence episode in our family . Periodically she would go into a blind rage and all I could do at those times was practically tackle her and hold on until it was over. I fortunately was bigger and she didn't have a weapon. Never say you won't do something under these conditions because you might. There are other kinds of mental breaks too where you are doing something but you see yourself doing it from a viewpoint of a spectator. You feel nothing, you hear nothing and you control nothing. Me.
As an ex Navy guy and Viet Nam veteran and now a mental health professional I can attest to the fact that in military has no idea what they are doing. It is beyond inappropriate to have any active duty person serve more than one deployment. So little is really known about the mild structural brain changes from being in a combat zone and having to be on guard all the time. To do more than one deployment causes a kindling or heightened state of fear, anxiety and so forth and makes it very difficult to acclimate to civilian or non-combat life. The federal government should be sued for emotional abuse of our vets. Not only that but the poor guys serve in a Muslim country and then come back and are supposed to talk to immigrants from the same country they just came from. Tell me that isn't abuse. Remember Nidal Hassan at Ft. Hood? A Muslim psychiatrist that ended up killing the guys ready to go to his home country. The whole situation is just abysmal.
BillVA Your handle sounds as if you are working for the V. A. , if this assumption on my part is true, then you would know that combat stress happens in all wars.. This situation with Bales is very tragic. There is mention that one or more of the surviving children stated that there was more than one participant in this situation. let's not judge to qwickly.
The war in Afghanistan is lost. This was never about nation building. It's time for Obama and Congress to pull the plug on this cesspool. Sign and share the petition, send a message.
http://www.change.org/petitions/bring-our-troops-home-from-afghanistan
I don't condone what Sgt Bales did, but where's the accountability from those that continue to abuse our soldiers and their families?
Jake - Just shuck off your skivvies and run them up the flagpole and surrender. Coward.
I hope this serviceman gets the best defense possible. You throw people into these horrendous situations again and again and are surprised when something like this happens? Its a terrible thing, but let's not make an example out of him for the sake of political correctness. Let our entire society take the blame for doing this to our service men and women. We need to get out of that hell hole.
1) no forensic evidence 2) witnesses state there were more than one 3) questions about his mental health 4) questions about a drug he may have taken for malaria that has been linked to psychotic breaks. 5) accusations (currenrtly under investigation) that diagnosis of PTSD have been changed to save money. I beginning to believe the government should be on trial next.
We've been fortunate not to have more incidents such as this shooting. Our soldiers have handled themselves admirably.
It must be remembered that Sgt Bales spent more time in combat than probably any single American in WWII or vietnam. Four tours! He and his family are victims here.]
We've got no defined objective and no willingness to engage many of the problems facing Afghanistan. This is another political BS war. Hell were letting them still grow and sell their drugs. WTF.
And when Obama looks in the mirror he sees the world's most inept leader but the most accomplished liar.
What bull$#!+, and asinine reasoning.
Bush and Cheney started this foolishness under their false flag operation of 9/11, but of course someone like you, with a moniker of "uscg1970," who's undoubtedly been brainwashed could never understand that.
@William - you made a great point, there comes a time when you body is in constant "fight or flight" and it's impossible to sleep, think, etc... I've been hearing about the drug they used for malaria and that it's a drug that should never be used on someone with a brain injury, possibly a drug that should just NEVER be used....having RA now, I am very aware of the quinolines, I had to quit, they make your brain murky, you just don't feel like yourself...just wondering but do you think that some of the drugs that they give our soldiers are also having "unaddressed" adverse effects on our servicepeople?
I think they are...but you are a professional, just wondering about your opinion, respectfully.
Give USCG a break. He can't help the fact he was a MUD PUDDLE PIRATE. At least he wore the suit, that is more than most have done.
bob
Moshuluu - False flag? Truther alert!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As usual, most of you people are making it sound like it's only "sand ni66ers" he killed, what's the problem?
The problem is he out right murdered (allegedly), not (collateral damage), 17 CIVILIANS, majority children, and yes he should be tried, convicted, and pay a steep price.
As I've stated before, I'm Retired, Army Infantry, 34+ years, and what he did, regardless of mental, or any other bull$#!+ diagnoses is what he set out to do. There is no doubt he sneaked off the base at that time of the morning, in clear conscience to do exactly what he did.
What most of YOU people are not realizing is HE signed up to do exactly what he was trained to do, and that's KILL, he knew what he was doing, now that it's done, all of these sympathy moves are trying to be played. Man up Bales, if you indeed did it, you're guilty as hell. Infantry is what it is, if you join gambling that you may never have to go to war, you are one of the biggest damn fools alive. You signed up for it, live with it. These same Soldiers are probably the very same ones who voted Bush to a first, and second term, believing the bull$#!+ he, and Cheney force fed you about WMD, and Saddam being the worst thing since Hitler. You signed up for it, do your job, man-up and quit bitching.
I was drafted during Vietnam, after Basic, and Infantry AIT, I was sent directly to Vietnam, I re-enlisted in Vietnam, for "present duty assignment," for 3 more years and did another tour there. After 5 years I thought about getting out, and yep, the only places, almost like now, who heavily recruited me were police departments, they like Infantry, and Military Police to join their ranks, but my first thought was, policing America is a big difference from being an Army Infantry Soldier, therefore I made the decision to stay in the Army.
You do not purposely murder civilians, especially children, if you do, you should pay the ultimate price.
3/30/12 Welcome Home Soldier Welcome Home from a Fellow DRAFTEE
PTSD, TBI,Multiple Combat Tours, Depression, Family Stresses NONE repeat NONE JUSTIFY THE KILLING OF WOMEN & CHILDREN.
Ask yourself this Question : How does anyone go face to face with a CHILD then PULL THE TRIGGER & MURDER THAT CHILD ? Not once but 9 times ?
Court Martial then Death by Firing Squad.
One of the largest Mistakes of "Our War" The NAM was letting MURDERERS to WALK FREE.
A USArmy Infantry Platoon MURDERED A ENTIRE VILLAGE of OLD MEN, WOMEN & CHILDREN & BABIES
& NO ONE WAS HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THOSE MURDERS. MY LIA MASSACRE March 1968
Lt Calley was Pardoned by Our President & He Walked Free NO ONE Not the Officers, NCO's or Enlisted Members of that Infantry Platoon were made to Answer for those Murders.1968 was the Year from Hell & it was all downhill from there. America Betrayed Anyone wearing a Military Uniform. They turned their Backs & walked away from Our Troops.
That can NOT Happen again. There must be Justice for premediated 1st degree MURDER.
SSG Robert Bales & Any other Soldiers that participated in those Afghan MURDERS must answer for those MURDERS.
Now rant & rave all that You wish about the Horrors of War, PTSD,TBI, Multiple Combat Tours
NONE JUSTIFY THE MURDER OF CHILDREN NONE End of Story Period.
SPW "Airborne" Drafted July 1969
I don't know if he did it or not. I don't know if the shooter was alone or not. I DO know that these men are there defending ME (and you). They are heros every day. They are protecting my right to go down to Mickey D's and buy a burger, as well as my right to vote, drive a car, or just simply, express my opinion. Sure, there are some who have problems, some who are a$$holes, some who are just mean and sorry. I will withhold judgement and pray for this soldier and his family. At least we do know that he didn't hijack an airplane and fly it into a skyscraper full of innocent men, women and children. If not for that little incident, our men wouldn't be over there to begin with.
I've been 'permanent and total' for quite some time. I'm sure those of you who are service-connected retired on PTSD know what that means. They talk about employers. Hell, even neighbors don't wanna have anything to do with me. And, they call me paranoid ? Well, they'd say i'm way too paranoid and too jumpy, but, that's okay, I don't like any of those previous neighbors either. But, we get this. I won't even go out in public wearing anything that identifies me as a vet. People just stare. That bothers me. I remember the stares from my own family when I got back. It was like they'd just stare as tho they were looking for a sign other than my wounds. It really bugged me. Now I live in the country in the woods in a decent house with only two neighbors in the valley who are both vets. I hate going into town. People just piss me off. But, I won't whine about it all. But, having said all this, I just wish people would wait and not pass judgement on Bales and everyone else until they get the facts. Most of us wouldn't hurt anyone and detest violence more than you would possibly know.
You can talk to me anytime friend. Not a vet but with my own problems.I won't tell you your just making it up. I won't tell you your feelings are stupid. I heard both of those before. I live 1400 miles from my family.
Doesn't matter if he had a breaking point. He killed innocent men, women and children. That's that! Just because one is deployed to a combat zone doesn't mean he was firing and being fired at every minute of every hour. We have too many veterans that did their combat duty and came home, readjusted to civilian life (no matter how difficult) and went on with their lives to give a pass to this murderer. We do need to get out ASAP. Obviously, voting for a president that said he would get us out didn't work. Once in, they do what they want and think about their presidential library to come.
One of the big items that everyone seems to be overlooking in this story is that employers are not hiring vets. Sure, they all run ads saying how they "support the troops", they talk the talk, but don't walk the walk. While I am not an Iraq or Afghanistan vet, I know what these troops are going through. I did do 20 years in the military, and upon trying to become employed after my retirement, I ran into the same roadblocks. They are: "You have no experience in our particular business", and "You have no local references". People, vets have experience in time management, management of personnel, assets and material. Any particular business is not "special". Quit talking the talk, and start walking the walk.
When I was in the Army, the drill instructor claimed: "You are now a trained killer!!!!! That may convince some people, but I was never convinced. Some of us don't fit that mold!!!!!
Some employers are vets and would hire a vet before anyone else. There's that too. Haven't seen anyone say that tho, so, thought I would. Just sayin
The people I know with PTSD are usually very private people that just need a friend to have listen to them for a few hours a week without critisizing them for anything. Paranoia is common place and interaction with others seems problematic. I spend several hours on the phone with my "friends" just listening. They are very good people that love life and just want to be normal, yet don't feel they fit in.
Do what you can for our veterans. They are good people and have given everything for our country.
When this country goes to war, go to war and get it over with. Stop the police actions. We don't need to set up Obama's rule all over the world. We need to solve problems and get out. Take care of our country first!
@Perry-2713557 - Several companies hire vets first. I agree with you 100%.
When will someone charge Bush and Chaney with bringing all this crap on America and it's soldiers !!
Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld. The axis of evil. Cheney knows who and what he is. He's even afraid to go to Canuckistan.
How did he get a new "heart" transplant at 71? That's some BS, probably a 16 year old kid now dead because Cheney got the heart.....but to Cheney, he's taken many beating hearts away, without a thought.
@moshuluu - you are correct, there is no defense for the point black shooting of children, women and the other innocent civilians. With the exception of one post, I think that people were mostly talking about the military complex as a whole and how it treats soldiers as little more than fodder for the fire...I'm with you, you KNOW that going in, your not told you are "special" and "good" ... if there is one Bales that we hear about - how many do you really think exist, I doubt he is an anomaly, and I wouldn't want him around children - so there needs to be a way of honestly assessing soldiers in and out of the field, getting them treatment, etc... so that we don't end up with a bunch of Bales riding in police cars, locked and loaded, in the US - or becoming your neighborhood's "Zimmerman."
Looking at the comment below this - it is not surprising, but it should outrage any human that when a soldier seeks help, they should be getting proper help... not Big Pharma and a "you'll be fine." Look how long it took the military to state that Agent Orange MAY be bad.....they know it is, but they still make AO survivors jump through nearly and sometimes impossible hoops.
This might not surprise many of you, but, I wanna tell ya. When people like me go to the VA to see the shrinks, (I've had 8 of them), not one of them have been veterans. The one I have now is some guy from Nigeria working off a VA college loan. All they wanna do is drug you up and hope you go away.
Perry
I've been there and done that . Drug therapy is all they do. Keep you stoned and happy, that way you don't break their shoes for more money or more and better treatment . I learned more about PTSD and my symptoms and triggers from psychologists than any shrink I ever dealt with.
bob
My experience with my problems (not a vet) the drugs don't help much. I just keep cycling everything. I walked away from the triggers stopped the pills and feel much better and safer. Now if I can just get my family to understand me being 1400 miles away is better for them. I'd be happy.
Then there's the "point preferences". Vets get 5 points, and wounded or disabled vets get 10 point preferences. Sorry folks, but these guys in the media are usually civilians who really dont have a clue one. Some employers (certainly not all), honor the point system. (i.e. the state and federal government jobs) So, that's good and works out for some of us. It's not all gloom and doom ya know.
The point system only applies to government jobs. It doesn't apply anywhere else.
As a prior Marine, my emotions surrounding this case are mixed. In my mind I sit and think, how would you even try a case like this in Court? You have young men and women who join the military whatever branch they choose, many straight out of high school, due to no jobs, can't find a job, so they have really no other solid choices but to join the military. These kids are taught the art of combat, trained to kill, ready to deploy at a moments notice, so they can try to pay their bills, put food on the table, support their young families, while serving their Country. You see many of these young men and women who are Gung Ho, ready to jump into action, ready to go to war, until they get there and realize it's for real! They realize the enemy is shooting back and trying to kill them! They see their buddies and friends killed, shot, blown up! Yeah...it plays hell with you're mind! Nightmares re-playing the images over and over again...How much can you take before you crack? These war hardened seasoned Vets come back home and try to jump back into civilian life, into a society that doesn't work anymore, people out stomping on our Flag we served under, laughing and mocking at a Soldiers funeral...no jobs, people don't want to hire you, because they're afraid of you and what your capable of! So many choose to stay in the Military, it's the only way to survive...because at least in the Military there is a level of acceptance, a brotherhood, a sense of belonging to something that is meaningful!
Sgt. Bales hit his breaking point! Targeting innocents was and is wrong, but the bottom line is this: Anyone who suffers from a TRAUMATIC BRAIN INJURY caused by war, SHOULD NOT be placed back into the combat zone! Because you just don't know what repercussions, lasting side effects could affect the individual, or their mental status or decision making abilities! They may seem perfectly fine on the outside, but you just don't know whats on the inside! Had the Military done the right thing and kept him out of combat, that particular situation would not have happened...at least not by Sgt. Bales! USMC