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Mario Tama / Getty Images file
The Danziger Bridge in New Orleans was the site of a deadly shooting of unarmed civilians by police officers in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina
Five former New Orleans police officers were sentenced to long prison terms Wednesday for their roles in the shootings at a bridge that left two civilians dead and four others wounded in the chaotic aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.
A federal judge sentenced four of the officers convicted of participating in the shootings to terms ranging from 38 years to 65 years, according to local media reports. The fifth officer received six years for covering up the killings.
U.S. District Judge Kurt Engelhardt called it “a sad day for New Orleans” and also criticized the plea bargains that other officers got in exchange for cooperating with the government, NOLA.com reported.
"Using liars to convict liars is no way to pursue justice," Engelhardt said, according to NOLA.com.
The Justice Department hailed the lengthy sentences in a case that shed a national spotlight on New Orleans police corruption as testament that “no one is above the law."
“We hope that today’s sentences give a measure of peace and closure to the victims of this terrible shooting, who have suffered unspeakable pain and who have waited so patiently for justice to be done,” Thomas E. Perez, assistant attorney general for the Justice Department’s civil rights division, said in a statement. “The officers who shot innocent people on the bridge and then went to great lengths to cover up their own crimes have finally been held accountable for their actions. As a result of today’s sentencing, the city of New Orleans can take another step forward.”
Kenneth Bowen, 38; Robert Gisevius, 39; Anthony Villavaso, 35; and Robert Faulcon, 48, were convicted in August of civil-rights violations and firearms and other charges in the shootings, according to The Associated Press. Retired Sgt. Arthur "Archie" Kaufman, who was assigned to investigate the shootings, was convicted of helping orchestrate the cover-up.
Faulcon received the stiffest sentence, 65 years. Bowen and Gisevius each got 40 years, and Villavaso got 38 years. Kaufman got the lightest sentence, six years.
Sean Gardner / Reuters
Sherrel Johnson, mother of James Brissette Jr., who was killed on the Danziger Bridge, is hugged by Rev. Aubrey Johnson after the sentencing of former New Orleans police officers on Wednesday.
Bowen, Gisevius, Villavaso and Faulcon were among about a dozen officers who responded to a radio call that someone was shooting at police near the Danziger Bridge in east New Orleans on Sept. 4, 2005. That was less than a week after Katrina made landfall, swamping a good part of the city and leading to televised scenes of looting and lawlessness in some neighborhoods.
Witnesses testified that the officers jumped out of a truck and fired with AK-47s and shotguns at unarmed civilians walking on the bridge.
The officers later claimed they shot only after being threatened or fired on and that they had seen weapons in the victims' hands.
Prosecutors said the people on the bridge were families seeking food.
Read local coverage on WDSU.com
A New Orleans couple, their daughter and their nephew were among those wounded, and a family friend, James Brissette, 17, was killed. He was shot in the back, the leg, both arms and the back of the head, and died on the bridge, according to the Justice Department.
At a second shooting a few minutes later on the west side of the bridge, Ronald Madison, a 40-year-old man with severe mental and physical disabilities, was shot in the back while running away. He died near the base of the bridge.
Kaufman, the lead investigator in the case, retired from the force in May 2011. He planted a gun at the scene and helped falsify official reports of the shootings, according to media reports.
The sentencing came after a morning of testimony from victims of the shootings as well as family members and friends of the former police officers.
Lance Madison told the court his brother Ronald was "gunned down and killed without mercy" by police that day, NOLA.com reported.
Madison told the five former officers: "You are the reason I can no longer trust law enforcement," according to NOLA.com.
Five other former NOPD officers who pleaded guilty before trial, admitting that they had participated in a conspiracy to obstruct justice and cover-up, were all sentenced previously. They got prison terms ranging from three years to eight years.
Information from NOLA.com., WDSU.com and The Associated Press is included in this report.
More content from msnbc.com and NBC News:
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How come the media always reports bad news about cops? They never report the accomplishments that our men in blue make. These men did do bad things, but more cops do good things that protect our good citizens.
Same thing with teachers. I'm very sorry for what happened in New Orleans, and I'm glad they will be punished.
I hope people remember that there are bad apples in every bunch.
Random pennsylvanian - How come the media always report bad news about priests? It's because people in positions of authority must be held to a higher standard.
Anyways, I remember hearing about this a long time ago and figured it would remain a travesty of justice and go unpunished. I'm glad I was wrong.
Random pennsylvanian,
I see headlines almost every week calling a cop(s) heroes for doing their job and saving a life.
I would argue that cops are held to a FAR lower standard then the rest of us (priests too)--they get away with untold abuse and lie and cover for each other. In the court room they get slack, juries somehow believe them even tho they are trained in police academy to be expert liars.
I have never been saved by a cop but I sure have been close to being KILLED by out of control COP--only time I ever felt intimately threatened by a fire arm was cop's gun to my head while I was hand cuffed face down, quite, surendered and still-- and had not done anything worse then try to escape arrest on foot. (I was arrested and charged with resisting arrest and nothing else....but of course they thrashed me a bit as per normal.
Clearly people were murdered at the hands of law enforcement....so i would say its kinda hard to detract from the "bad" things our men in blue do. That is as cruel as it gets........
This is also not just a random report on a police shooting. This story has been going on for a long time. Its the resolution and sentencing of police officers who were convicted on charges from murdering people. The incident made headlines as when a group of officers kills a bunch of unarmed people it tends to make the news. Something that was headline news at one point will usually have a news report later on when its wrapped up with the sentencing. I think the news in todays day and age is atrocious and biased from both sides much of the time. This article does not do anything other then give the sentences of the convicted from a story that was national headlines at one point.
And I see articles of police saving people. But at the end of the day. its there job, they are the real heroes when they do there job correct. But they do things to save people across the country daily. Its expected when someone is in trouble they are to help. When they in turn mow down a bunch of innocent people and coover it up. It is news. Not just reporting on the bad things they do. But when the people working to protect murder its news. Thats why
Random - sorry, but that's an incredibly asinine question. It's their job to do good, and just doing one's job in an unspectacular way isn't interesting or newsworthy. Whey cops *do* something spectacularly good, like, I dunno - take a bullet and sacrifice their lives while saving the life of one of those they're paid to serve and protect, the media does make a big spectacle out of it, because that is something exceptional.
When they violate that serve-and-protect oath and cross over to the dark side, cops become newsworthy. And when they turn evil in as spectacular a way as these guys did, a mass shooting of unarmed civilians followed by falsifying evidence and planting guns on their victims and otherwise covering up, the story becomes extremely newsworthy.
When those that have taken an oath to protect our citizens and to uphold the law, break the law, they should be held to a higher level of accountability. Thankfully, the deceased have received some justice. Hopefully, these sentences will be of some comfort to the victims' families.
Well lets hope so. Its their JOB! They are supposed to do good things, set the standard. So when they don't, which is more and more often these days, it should definitely be reported. They hold the public trust. I wonder why we just got a photo of the bridge in the article. Where are the photos of those policemen? Everyone should know who they are and what they look like. I am disappointed they did not get life in prison. They killed several and injured several more. What does it take to get life. You can take several but yours is spared....please!!! 40 years with time off for good behavior.....not nearly enough of a punishment.
bonaparteblu... there won't be any photos as they weren't all white cops. They should be punished as per the law. Unfortunately they won't serve the full sentences, just like the 7 time convicted fellon that murdered the pro baseball pitcher in Florida. The system is broken.
Ray Nagin should be in a cell, right next to these thugs.
Dan, agreed and Kathleen Blanco needs to be in a cell in St. Gabriel's.
Obama, a failed experiment
They'll serve all their time...they were convicted in federal court, I don't think there is a such thing as early release in the Federal system...
Hope so sbrad39.
Sorry sir, you know when someone goes to court, his good things aren't going to be balanced against the bad things. If the Judge is honest that is. What I would like to know is that was YEARS ago! Why are we just hearing about it now? Where was the media then?
And if you care about whether your fellow cops are just, and fair, and virtuous, then pray for them, and learn about the Oath Keepers and the Constitutional Sheriffs movement. And watch "Courageous". I cried through the whole thing.
Because that is what they get paid for to do good things,that pay check is praise.
I think that this case will be over-turned upon appeal. 65 years for unpremeditated murder is absurd, and is a slam-dunk for ' Cruel & Unusual '. Also, it appears to be a blatant misuse of the Federal firearms statutes. I would be very interested in hearing the opinion of Alan Dirschwitz [sp], the Harvard Law prof, and appeals specialist. However, in these high-profile ' Show Trials ', politics trumps law.
I was stunned, when, upon the appeal of the two Border Guards from Texas, at regardless of how outraged the appeals judges were at the blatant subordination of perjury by the trial judge and prosecutor in obtaining the conviction, that it was allowed to stand.
No, 65 years doesn't sound too far off for that kind of crime. Now, for the two murders committed, the four attempted murders, and the dozens of other felonies, 65 years is an absurdly soft sentence.
How exactly does a trial judge commit perjury?
The first charge was 1st degree murder. The jury was hung11-1. When I see 11-1 I'm pretty sure some buddies got to one juror.
Unpremeditated? They go to a bridge, see a group of unarmed people crossing to the other side and open fire on them. What do you think they were thinking? What could it have been other than, "lets shoot them." That, my friend, is premeditated by any definition.
Cops face the posibility of death every day. Its a tough job. But they took the job knowing this and most cops are the good guys. Theirjob definition is quite simple, to find people who are breakikng the law and put them in jail. Its up to the courts to determine the rest. The don't have a shoot first and ask questions later rule. They have the same options as we do. They can't take a life except in cases where their lives are are in mortal danger. Going on a call and opening up on people is a no no. They are supposed to go to jail for that. Unfortunately, they too often don't. We've had cops kill innocent people here in Portland, Oregon and went scott free. That happens everywhere. In high profile cases like this one, Its often different, thank God.
Whisper - *you* might just be hearing about it now, but it was covered in the news at the time, and over the years as the case went through investigation and arrest and trial. Maybe you just weren't paying attention.
To RandomPennsylvanian: No dear, MORE COPS Do BAD things nowadays. They are NOT like the Police Officers from 30Years ago. These individuals are paid Killers with police Brutality, badges and guns. Here in California they shoot to kill first and ask the cadaver questions later. These paid thugs are the gophers of the EVIL 1-10% rich and corporate rich. They force the will of their Evil aristocratic masters making it easier to steal America's wealth and wage Profitable Wars AND drain Americans with health insurance industry policies when we should have AnAmericanUniversalHealthCareSystem like NORMAL countries, our allys, have. It is a National Disgrace.
Wow only six years for Kaufman ..He should have gotton 40 years for his roll in the cover up....Then you wonder why people call police..PIGS..Just look at what they do today..they have no respect for the ave citizen.
Kaufman wont make it 6 years. He will die of cancer of the rectum within 5.
Yea. Because the actions of some rouge cops represent all the great police officers that are acorss the country. I guess that every job in American has people that areterrible. Firefightres have murdered. Police, Teachers, Rabbis, Priests, Moms, dads, cabbies.
I am not a fan of cops Because I dont feel me talking to them under any circumstance that I am not in an emergency, which is when I would need them and what they are for, should ever get involved in my life or business. But I do at the same time have friends that are police. I also have had police come to my house because of loud music one night. And asked if they could come in and I said no. They dont like that. But they had not reason to and I simply said that and it ended. They respected me. I also had an argument with my girlfriend and we were fine just having a bad day but someone caled the cops because we were loud. It was bad because the day before my girlfriend got a black eye falling from hr bike. They were going to possibly arrest me for domestic even though i never touched her and we were fine. They separated me and talked to her and she explained. But they were concerned for her just because they thought I hit her when we just had a tiff, non violent with my fiance. I was upset. But after talking to my girlfriend I actually felt nice to know they were telling her that if I had done it they would help and not to be scared. She obviously was not and explained. But they cared. And when they realized it was a tiff and having me separate they apologized and said they just wanted to make sure she was safe. Cause that same situation may times is what happens. I was glad they cared. I was glad they listened and understand. And even when they thought I hit her( my baby knows I would kill for her but never ever touch her, we hardly even argue (love u beautiful) They were respectful to me. most cops are good people. But because of there role in society they are seen with bad intentions cause when something goes bad that they are supposed to protect then peple most definitely notice
The media is extraordinarily fair with it comes to police.
The issue here is that when an officer of the law decides to break the law, they have such a strong ability to do greater harm than ordinary persons. So we do hold them to a much higher standard than we do the offices that do the job they are expected to do.
An officer doing great work is not news necessarily. Doing extraordinary work is. But an officer breaking the law, especially those that commit murder, then cover up the crimes with the help of other officers, . . THAT is news.
These cops got what they had cumming to them. Indeed, they got more than their victims got.
So I'm confused (maybe I missed it in the article?) They were convicted of covering it up or they were convicted of murder? I agree they're stiff sentences but if it's only for the cover-up where's the justice for the families?
They were federal charges, so just civil rights violations. It's what the federal gov't uses to pick up the pieces when local prosecutors f*ck up. I believe federal murder charges only apply to Indian reservations and the killing of federal employees/agents.
Here's some more:
http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/51/1111
So, the federal gov't can charge with murder if it's committed on federal lands (McVeigh) or the high seas or against a federal agent/employee OR in this case:
http://law.marquette.edu/facultyblog/2010/11/16/scotus-to-address-requirements-for-federal-murder-statute/
...when the victim may communicate information to the federal gov't regarding the possible commission of another federal crime.
Thank you zupercram, I'm glad these "officers" to use the term loosely got such stiff sentences, I only hope it gives the families a feeling of justice, I'm not sure, if I were in their shoes, would feel that way other than to think well at least SOMETHING happened.
Believe me living in Texas and still dealing with Katrina "refugees" hasn't always been the most pleasant experience, BUT wrong is wrong, and when I can see at least some kind of "justice" served it makes it easier to deal with.
First Sargent, why do you have it as "refugees"? Did those people NOT lose their homes or something?
Because that's what they call themselves Ciewywtb, I used quotations to show that I thought it was asinine also. I'm not sure where you live, but I can tell you that our crime rates (as those of the other states who took them in) rose a lot, notice very few are going "home"? BUT this has nothing to do with their status as I said above, it has everything to do with hoping the families getting justice.
With great power.........comes great responsibility....
Great news, that took way to long to come about.
Nightmare.
From what I read over the years including this--some of these cops were nothing more than cold blooded murderers. About time a few of them get some punishment, it doesn't happen often and cops are needlessly killing ppl everyday.
If I were a cop I'd cellibrate this dose of justice even more as these thugs in uniform taint me too.
So many people at all levels screwed up going back 50 years when it comes to Katrina. This is what happens when your complacent.....When the worse comes, people die and few get held accountable
So you are saying that 50 years ago, somebody told these cops it is alright to kill citizens because they are black? The few that got caught seem to have stepped over a reeeeeealy big line. I hope their families provide them with weekly supplies of vaseline and band aids.
Aaron.. I understand what you said. I'm just wondering if tex2c2 can state where you came anywhere close to saying it was okay to kill citizens because they are black?
Obama, you have completely missed the point, just as you have missed the hard work and successes that the POTUS has accomplished as he fought against a Congress full of negativity to solve the problems left by Dubya and his gang of thieves. I was simply asking aaron what the 50 years meant. LOL
How come the media only reports bad news about cops? Really?! Police are just as dirty as the perps they go after.
Psychologists say they are made up of the same clay. In psych tests, it is impossible to tell the difference between cops and prisoners, but you can clearly see a difference between cops or prisoners and the general public.
the cops were shooting with ak 47's. Ak 47 is not a police issued assault rifle. There has to be more to this story than what has been said. Why would cops just start shooting at people? Stress?
janman86,
These cops saw their victims as impoverished, trapped and powerless people.
The answer is clear...these cops placed Zero value on the lives that they took.
They snuffed out innocent lives. Now they will be serving life sentences.
My guess is their life sentences will be over pretty soon.
Agreed. This sounds like the subject for an entire book.
With a skewed series of events that favors them.
So my question is why weren't they charged with murder? I mean I agree with most of their sentences they definitely deserved them, ( i say most because one got a very small sentence) the families deserved justice, I just have a problem with them getting these sentences for charges of "cover-ups"
This is GREAT news! Crooked pigs are a serious problem nationwide that many in the naive public fail to realize or understand....until they or a friend become innocent victims of police brutality and dishonesty. All police should be required to take and pass a polygraph test as to the facts for any shooting or arrest that they have done, if the facts are questioned by the person arrested or family members or the State Attornies office or ACLU. Many police are good and honest, but there are many that are extremely dishonest, as was exposed in this case. Polygraphing police and random drug testing of police would go a long way toward cleaning up crooked law enforcement.
I think that they should give polygraphs to all people that they arrest at the same time and see who is lying. Then all anyone would be doing is taking polygraphs!!!!
The police are doing the arresting, not the person arrested. The burden of proving guilt is on the Police, not the accused.
I would imagine if the people shot were black it would have been in the articles title.
I imagine that only a racist would imagine that.
You did not see the picture? Try to go back and read articles from then. Yes some of them were black (gasp). Get over yourself please. This story is about the resolution of a crime that happened in 2005. 12 yrs later it is finally over for the victims and their families.
Twisted, Thank you for your service. Bless you and all of our military families.
(Sister of a Vietnam vet)
And just to clarify because now I'm sure someone will start talking about white cops and black victims, the cop who received the longest sentence (Robert Faulcon - 65 years) was also black.
please explain to me why it @!$%#ing matters what "color" any one was?
Because if they are black (which most were in this case) then they "deserved" to get shot because they were "probably thugs"; that old yarn. And if they were white then someone will have to ask why Al Sharpton and Jessie Jackson wasn't there "race-baiting" as some folks swear social justice is all about.
In other words, they need to know so they know when to get righteously indignant and fly off the handle, and who to direct their biases towards.
Race: getting Americans' panties in a twist since the 16th Century.
Agree.
BUT nobody I don't care what color you are deserves to be gunned down by the people we entrust and PAY to protect us. To be fair they were probably better off not having Al or Jesse around, those two are definitely not even in the same hemisphere with real black heroes, sorry but to me they're nothing more than the other "shade" of David Duke types.
I get called racist a lot because I don't choose my words more carefully, but this whole thing seriously pisses me off, these were human beings who were gunned down why? Because these so called "officers" thought they could? Now mind you if any of these people were armed (a lot of real heroes got shot at trying to save people) I might be thinking differently, but this is even outside MY realm of reasoning.
I do feel the need to add that it seriously pisses me off that these "officers" had to be brought up on charges of cover up instead of murder.
1SGFitzsWife - there is no federal law against murder, unless it is committed in association with a federal crime (like the civil rights violations here, or interstate kidnapping, or the like). You're right; the fact all this had to be addressed and resolved at the federal level is a sad, sad commentary on local state justice there in Louisiana.
Which is among the many reasons why some of us take a dim view of current stump arguments that the federal government has "no role" in local affairs. Without it, these five would still be wearing a badge, toting a gun, killing innocents and sweeping things under the rug ... er, over the edge of the Danziger Bridge.
so basically someone dropped the ball and these @!$%#s had to be brought up on federal charges? I think that just made me MORE mad!
Now you've got it. And BTW, thank you and your family for your service and sacrifices. Go Army!!
There is a God!
I hope all these other Police xccross America get the massage!
Thanks you! Happy Easter.
Julius
Amen to that! Most of middle class America is totally clueless about how corrupt and dishonest many police officers are.
John Julius,they will not,some of them are slow learners this has been going on for a long time.
I wish all of you would do a 'ride along' with a cop some night. Might change a few minds. But then again, maybe not since some minds don't want to change.
See what is really out there on the streets and ask yourself if you could do this day in and day out.
If they believed that what they did was right, or justifiable, they wouldn't have planted a gun and orchestrated a cover-up. There is no defense for that, especially when you are an officer of the law, and are paid to, y'know ... uphold the law.
I don't need a ride-along to know that I would not murder people.
Boy are those guys gonna have a good time when they get put in a Louisiana prison filled with mean black guys. Heads up racist cops, you is next!
to timetraveler: If a police officer is incabable of doing his job honestly day in and day out, then he should not be doing that job. Stop making excuses for crooked pigs.
There is no way a ride along would do anything to change the facts or opinions about this case. The police shot unarmed citizens, in the back!
The failed war on Drugs, and the exaggeration of domestic terror threats since 9/11 have militarized our police to the point that some officers think they can act as prosecutor, judge and jury with impunity.
Police departments are supposed to "protect and serve" not frame and terrorize.
Tex2c2,they will not be in the regular prisoner population,they will be protected.
I have done the 'ride-along' thing, and it is very interesting, and no, I could not do it day after day, without severe cost to myself.
John, you got it. There's an inviolable hierarchy behind the walls. First targets are pedophiles; second are cops. And race has nothing to do with it.
John: Ignacio Ramos, the former Border Guard convicted in a ' Show Trial ' was in the general population at a Federal facility, and after being recognized, was almost beaten to death.
Spare us all the 'ride-along' saga. None of these men, or anyone else in law enforcement, is impressed into service. There is no draft, no indentured servitude, and no one holding a gun to their heads demanding they sign up or continue in a difficult position.
If the tour of duty is that harsh, that oppressive, then they owe it to themselves, their families, and the community, to Man Up, take a knee and acknowledge 'this ain't for me.' Instead of killing innocents, and then giving us tears and snot bubbles about how hard their job is.
Spare us all.
Everyone in the prison will know who and where they are. It will only take one mistake by their guards to shorten their sentence. Child molesters, judges, and cops are the most targeted inmates.
about time
about time the bastards get what coming to them, but there should be alot more locked up too
They should have ALL gotten life in prison.
We need to stop referring to these five as Law Enforcement Officers they are nothing more than murdering thugs.
I am hoping that they do not last too long in prison... that would be REAL justice and would save us taxpayers a lot of money... and that is a good thing!
WHY?! That's all I want to know. Why were these, "policemen" even allowed to even stay on the force, until they were accused?! The Justice system in this country, is a joke, period. Keep that in mind, Florida!! I can hardly wait to see what, if anything, happens to Zimmerman.
Zimmerman has not been found guilty of anything, and truthfully, no one in the public really knows what the truth is. We do know that Zimmermans back was dirty, scraped and grass stained, and that his head was cut and his nose was broken.... and that he was treated and cleaned up by emergency personnel... Do you really have no honest thoughts about who probably attacked who? The facts will come out eventually, and until then face the fact that you and many other sheeple have been brainwashed by media reports.
As flawed as these former cops were, at least they stayed on the job and didn't run away, as reportedly did many of the NOPD.
Stayed on the job? I've looked at several law enforcement agencies, and none of them listed murder in the job description.
Their victims would have been more fortunate if these murderers DID just run away
I come from a cop family and there's good and bad cops. The good are ok. The bad are some of the worse, ugliest, rotten garbage that ever had the nerve to show their sorry side to the rest of us.
MT - great observation. I worked for a state supreme court justice in the midwest some years ago, and he was assigned the appeal of a police brutality case. He was an arch-conservative; and I'll never forget him saying, privately in chambers, that there are some police who are no more than thugs with a nightstick and a gun. He was a Christian man and a mentor, and those wretched excesses and abuses from people posturing as authority troubled him deeply.
I have the upmost respect for the police but this kind of stuff goes on all over the USA. Who are you going to trust?
These guys and others like them are nothing but pigs in my book and are no better than the low life gang bangers that rome our streets.
No one is above the law...
Except Obama and his ilk!
Kirk, you're wrong, Dick Cheney and Bush the Younger are still at large in this country even though they might face war crime charges in some other countries. Of course I suppose you'd be happy to rattle on about Obama being a blacksocialistmooslimfascist?
Since Mr. Obama has continued most of the policies of the former Administration, I would assume that he would face the same possible war crime charges ?
Sorry, it is the publican majority in the House that have continued Ole Bush's policies and have derailed every attempt by Obama to create jobs and improve the Economy.
Ron- I have two words to prove you wrong.... Patriot Act....
Lest we not forget the new and approved NDAA act that was passed recently!
They probably deserved a medal and a bonus!
For shooting unarmed civilians looking for food and water? What an ignorant comment.
You are one sick puppy, Kirk, my friend.
PURE EVIL.
Those people had just been ravaged by 1 of the worst natural disasters ever to hit there.
Were hungry and thirsting for water.
Some people within my very own race embarrass me beyond words. Yes you Kirk.
PURE EVIL.
Some people are a waste of human life.
Your a racist idiot.
Justice....
“We hope that today’s sentences give a measure of peace and closure to the victims of this terrible shooting, who have suffered unspeakable pain and who have waited so patiently for justice to be done,” Thomas E. Perez, assistant attorney general for the Justice Department’s civil rights division, said in a statement"
Actually NO. They should have all received more than what others get as they did it under the color of authority. They should have been sentenced to life without parole or death.