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Courtesy Gary Stein via AP
Marine Sgt. Gary Stein, who started a Facebook page critical of President Obama, in an undated photo.
An unusual band of free speech groups are trying to stop the Marine Corps from kicking a sergeant out of the service for posting statements critical of President Barack Obama and other U.S. officials on Facebook.
Sgt. Gary Stein, who has been a Marine for nine years, started a Facebook page called "Armed Forces Tea Party" in which he says he wouldn’t follow unlawful orders from Obama, and criticized Defense Secretary Leon Panetta for comments made about Syria. Stein has said he created the page as a way to encourage fellow service members to exercise their free speech rights.
The lawyers backing Stein filed a lawsuit to halt a discharge hearing scheduled for Thursday at Camp Pendleton in California in order to give them more time to prepare for his defense. They argued their case before federal judge Marilyn Huff in the United States District Court for the Southern District of California on Wednesday afternoon. Their attempt to get a restraining order to postpone the military hearing, however, was denied, David Loy, legal director for the San Diego branch of the American Civil Liberties Union, told msnbc.com.
Thus, the military hearing will determine if Stein should be discharged from the Marines when his enlistment ends in July. Stein has expressed his wish to stay in the service.
The Marines said Stein violated a Pentagon policy barring troops from political activities and should be discharged.
Lawyers fighting Stein’s removal from the Marines come from groups often at opposite ends of the political spectrum. The United States Justice Foundation is a conservative-leaning group frequently critical of the Obama administration. On its website the group tracks issues such as the president’s birth origin and his health care policies.
Joining the USJF in backing Stein is the ACLU, often considered liberal leaning. The San Diego branch of the ACLU on Wednesday issued a statement that it has joined in defending Stein’s free speech rights.
"The military may be different from the civilian world, but it’s not exempt from the First Amendment," Loy, legal director for ACLU of San Diego & Imperial Counties, said in a statement. "Sergeant Stein didn’t say anything for which the Marine Corps has any right to punish him. He did not threaten order or discipline or take positions that anyone would attribute to the Corps. Indeed, the Corps is threatening loyalty and morale by persecuting a good Marine for exercising his free speech rights."
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This guy has publicly stated that he refuses to follow The Commander In Chief's orders, if he deems them "unlawful". That's not "free speech", it's insubordination. He should definitely be kicked out of the service. Then, he can go work for F-word "News", and be disrespectful towards the President, along with all the other haters over there...
There is a time and place to air grievances about what a soldier thinks are 'unlawful orders'. A political facebook group called "Armed Forces Tea Party" is not one of those places. Also it's important to note the context in which he was saying he wouldn't follow certain orders that he deems unlawful. If he was insinuating a particular policy that he simply doesn't agree with, and thus attributes it to the President, it's insubordinate and violates military regulations.
Calling an order 'unlawful' is deadly serious. You don't just go throwing around such accusations and insinuations as a soldier, especially not on a Facebook political group.
Aren't members of the armed forces already required to disobey any order that is unlawful?
Lev,
If the orders are unlawful then yes, but you had better be ready to clearly state why the orders are unlawful or you will be charged.
JustaGrunt-
There may be details that I'm missing, but the article stated that he merely stated that he would not follow unlawful orders. There is no way that he could clearly state why a yet to be issued order was not lawful. If it's true that all he said was "I would not follow an unlawful order," then there cannot possibly be anything wrong in that.
Again, a more detailed article might explain exactly what the issue was, but I'm pretty sure it had nothing to do with him proclaiming his objection to hypothetical unlawful orders.
There's more to it Lev, this story has been out for awhile.
Your right. At face value this article leaves much to be desired. I believe that the answers can be found in past articles, some even posted by MSN, that detail that he was ordered to take down the web site, which he did, then put it back online after he reviewed the legal standings and concluded that he did nothing wrong. This might be where he is getting in trouble. Also when you join it is well known and taught that you can not participate in any political actions while wearing or representing the branch that you joined. By creating an Armed Forces Tea Party page he violated this. Yes people that join the military still have all their Constitutional Rights, but some are more restricted then if you were a civilian.
Oh, ok. Would be nice if these stories could pack in a little more information.
@Ottomarcos
I see that you don't even have a clue what "unlawful Order" means.
Not to swift there chum lee
Well maybe something good will come out of this if the two groups can get a true definition from the court of first amendment rights. We had a federal judge in San Anotnio rule opposite ways on the same section of the first amendment in the space of 2 months time. Same judge, same clause, opposite rulings it's total confusion. You don't know what you can and can't say. I would actually welcome these two groups getting together more on this amendment to end the confusion.
Get as many groups involved as you want. The military DOES NOT have the same rights as a civilian...period! This jack-a-lope can't even quote the enlistment oath correctly.
If this Marine is to be dismissed from service for his comments, than so should every public figure running for office that has disagreed and made negative comments about the president. they all should be barred from serving in a political office for disrespect.
Hondarr you fail to realize this man took an oath. When he refuses to follow orders, he violates that oath, Most of us would not have jobs if we did not follow what our bosses told us. He has the right to free speech but he also has the responsibility to deal with the consequences. THey are intertwined. Freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences. If he stands by what he says, he should have no problem being dismissed. An honorable man would not violate an oath. How can his fellow marines trust him when his only concern is his own opinion. When on the front line, is the ma you want to have your back.
Sorry That is in the UCMJ and the Geneva Convention.. That is to prevent the Hitler Defence!! I was just following orders!! Somebody has their Shorts in a Bunch???
It seems that the thing that is not understood by some is that he is an enlisted member of the military and they have certains oaths, duties and responsibilities that they swore to when enlisting. I myself am a veteran of Desert Gulf, Storm, Bosnia , Somalia, and was part of the Panama raid. There were a lot of things that I didn't agree with but as a soldier I had orders to follow but if they were unlawful they would be questioned but albeit in a more discreet manner. As I understand and from everything that I have read one of his problems was that people being held accountable for defaming religious material, terrorizing, pillaging (i.e: burning or destroying the Koran), urinating on dead combatants) now as a soldier of the United States we are held to a higher standard than the rest of the world's militia and it is a proud thing to be a part of the Marines, Navy, Army and the Air Force and they history of honor and integrity goes back to the beginning of our country, now Mr. Stein would have those that have dishonored us be found blameless so he has decided to throw our Commander in Chief under the bus and publicly out him....SHAME ON HIM, that is not an unlawful order!!! Free speech does not apply here!! A lot of those who feel it should have never truly served in the military and those that did serve in the military that agree with what he did it seems from some of the comments that were made on other sites appear to have a problem with the president.....and if one has a problem with the president then that is fine but as a member of our armed forces of THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA we should aways remember the UCMJ and also our own honor, we are sworn to defend and serve, it is the office itself and that we should remember that.
Now I know that there are those out there that would say "Well they don't care about us why should we care about how they feel!!!" Well for one thing we would demand their collective heads if they did it and the other thing to remember is that we can't all lump them together, just like they shouldn't do that to us because all Muslims are not a like just as all Christians, Jews and Catholics aren't. Should we disrespect them all for a what a few ignorant ones do. And before I go let me tell you while I was serving in the Middle East I saw quite a few of us be very disrespectful while in their country, but I digress, I apologize. In closing the military has separate laws hat govern it just as any other organization does and if it is violated then there are consequences and repercussions that must follow because after all don't many us have rules that we have in our own homes that must be followed irregardless of what another home may have, I mean how would you like if you someone came in and told you what to do in your home....just a thought
I severed in the Marines for 10 years. the key words are "good order and discipline". it is to prevent rebellion in military ranks in times of war. those of us who have served our country, in time of war, have at some point had to make that decision to give our lives for American Freedom and the defence of the Constitution. we do not defend the Uniform code of military conduct or the one elected as President. We defend the Constitution of the United States of America and American Freedom and our Enalienable rights. anything contrary to the Constitution is unlawful. because we are recognized for having chose freedom over life, our words carry weight that no political activist who avoided service could ever know. Political parties who have an agenda Contrary to the Constitution fear that so they will misuse the Uniform code of military justice to silence those who love their country. As American citizens, those in the Military have a right to voice there political views and participate in the political process. NO LAW PASSED CAN EVER VIOLATE THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. ABOVE IT THERE IS NO LAW SAVE GOD'S
I think they should put him in jail!
That's what you get for thinking.....
Bill, if you weren't a sniveling civilian rat you would think he should be in jail too. If this NCO pulled this crap when he worked for me I would have shot him myself and and strung his disloyal corpse up on a yucca at Ft. Irwin!
Why because more and more of these guys are waking up to the fact that they are indeed not being used to uphold the oath they took upon entering into the service? Face it Angry, our troops haven't been used in a decent manner since 1941, where both the Germans and Japanese did pose a danger to our existence. Korea didn't matter to us or we would have let Macathur go loose on the Chinese back in 1950, or Westmoreland on Vietnam in 1968. Gulf War was a setup as Saddam would not have invaded had April Glaspie not told him the US didn't care. In fact both Korea and Vietnam were setups as well. The N Koreans were emboldened to attack the south when Dean Acheson decided not to publicly include S Korea in the newly created US Asian Defense Perimeter at the beginning of the Cold War, at a press conference.
I also like your contempt for civilians ther Angry, calling Bill a sniveling rat. The fact is people that do join the military aren't too bright. Why? How can you be when the people you serve have been quoted as calling military men dumb animals like Kissinger did.
While I agree with this mans views on the current administration, I do not agree with his actions. As the wife and mother of Service men I have heard others making the same comments. Difference is, they are making to actual Friends, privately. NOT on a website.
He took an oath to uphold the Constitution and obey any and all orders of his superiors and of the President. He has betrayed that oath.
As a true left-wing, hard line liberal, I stand behind the military and their right to give up all freedom of political speech. As a former military, I understood this. The soldier needs to be jailed and censured. No question.
Ummm, as an active duty person, he has a duty to not follow "unlawful" orders as do all active duty personnel. Would you want active duty personnel to blindly follow orders just for the sake of following orders? Even if it means the killing of innocent women and children like what happened in Viet Nam? Maybe you need to re-state your argument a little better so we can understand the point you are making. If he deems them un-lawful, and they aren't, then he should be brought up for charges for dis-obeying a direct order and court-martialed. Until that happens though, I do believe he has a first amendment right to free speech.
So what you're saying is that the soldiers who refused to deploy in an unlawful war should be set free and restored?
People who join the military still have rights as citizens, but they also have responsibilities as members of a cohesive organization, with the president as commander in chief. Allowing individual soldiers to criticize or even ridicule their commander in chief, or to decide for themselves which orders they will follow, is ridiculous beyond belief. Soldiers and sailors may not like a certain president or agree with his policies, but the respect that they show pertaining to him is for his OFFICE and all that symbolizes. You mention the killing of innocent women and children in Vietnam as an example of unlawful orders, and connect this example to Stein's refusal to follow them. As Stein said that he wouldn't follow unlawful orders from the PRESIDENT, which president ordered the killing of women and children in Vietnam?
Yes. IF (and that's a big IF) the courts agree that the war is unlawful.
when you join the armed forces, you give up the rights that you defend, he has no freedom of speech, and to say that he want follow the orders of those above him, up to and including the president is could be considered treason. he should be punished to the full extent of the ucmj,
You really don't know what treason is do you? You do not give up the rights that you defend when you join the military. Yes some are more restricted then if you were a civilian, but you don't lose them.
Interesting. So joining the military is the same as slavery?
when faced with the enemy I don't want someone watching my back and questioning if they are the enemy.
mygirl1, go back to sleep and thank God you are safe in the hands of the American Armed Forces. Sleep well my princess!! Its not slavery when you Love your COUNTRY!!!
The way I see it his employer is dismissing him for disagreeing with his bosses on a public channel. I love and care about our soldiers greatly, but the truth is that is their job. If you or I go on facebook and complain about the way our bosses are running the company then we would be subject to being dismissed as well. Everyone has the freedom of speech and the repercussions that come with it.
Sid: Perhaps you should wake up and read the oath and then read that a soldier can and does have a moral obligation to not carry out an order if it is wrong. If a soldier was given an order to shoot protesters (Kent State, Bonusers, union riots, events where the military did indeed kill citizens) and his parents were targeted, would that soldier be wrong in refusing to kill his parents?
Think hard here, there is a grey area and My Lai was right in your book, you would have killed those villagers because you were ordered to do so? There was a helicopter pilot who intervened, he was commended for doing so because he prevent a slaughter of larger proportions. I want my soldiers to have a brain and be capable of using it, military code does indeed provide for disobeying an order, a soldier can indeed do so, he will be arrested and tried and he'd better have a DAMN good reason behind not following an order or his a$$ is toast.
Why are you educating these civilians wimps? If they had the courage to serve they would already know this stuff.
If you want to discuss the rights of the military, then read the Uniform Code of MIlitary Justice. These are the regulations regarding demeanor, behavior, and esprit de corp. Civilians, read or join before commenting with idiotic statements.
Conservative Mind. True, he does have a right of free speech. I won't argue with you there. But with that right comes responsibility. And one of those responsibilities is discretion.
If you have an employer, and you publicly announce to the world that you will refuse to obey the requirements of the position you freely chose, your employer can terminate you. If you make insulting comments to your friends on Facebook about your boss, or your company, they can terminate you. Same deal here. He made an oath to the country and to the President.
If he'd made his views private, among his friends, this wouldn't be an issue. But he didn't. So he has to pay the price.
He spoke out publicly saying that he would refuse to follow the orders of someone in his direct chain of command. He later changed that to say he would refuse to follow "unlawful" orders. A sergeant, or E-5, should know better. Even if he isn't punished for this he'll never be promoted.
His military career is over even if he isn't punished.
At consevative mind3257826: Please do not enlist. Please do not have any of your progeny enlist. Sit back and work a 9-5 and for God's sake....do not run for public office or in any way become a bureaucrat.
Free speech is one thing, however you are still accountable for your actions that you know are blatenly against Military Regulations (UCMJ).
"Indeed, the Corps is threatening loyalty and morale by persecuting a good Marine for exercising his free speech rights." A silly quote by his lawyer, loyalty is a characteristic of an honorable military member, not a rebel of honor! He should be booted on his rear end!
@Kendall Jones
And what does the UCMJ say about "Unlawful orders"?
Well I would say the UCMJ will send you to prison for following an unlawful order. They did it to Lt Calley.
Being a ex military member
Conservative Mind-3257826 it seem our military didn't have any problem following the Orders of Bush and DICK though all their BS was based on lies you idiots now in the military are not there to serve your country but the white master who control you. if Obama would have been white this dick would have kept his mouth closed and did his duty his racist azz needs to be kicked out because i know if i was in a foxhole next to him he would not look out for my back being I'm black
Here we go again, making it a racist issue & raving about 'white masters' whatever in hell that means. Is there no issue that you'd try to turn into a racial issue when race has nothing to do with it? Makes you sound like a nutcase.
I never understood why so much hate and vitriol is directed at the current POTUS, what makes him so different? His policies aren't really anything extreme, or new, or radical. Much of it was borrowed from the last one, but now suddenly they become affronts to your dignity? People gave Bush a hard time, but nothing close to what's thrown at the current. I mean, antichrist? Intentionally destroying the country? Secret Muslim? Kenyan? Terrorist? Demonic?.... it's ridiculous.
I ponder on this sometimes. What's the big difference between him and all the others? Nothing really. Except he's black.
Shuklack,
That's IT! You have hit the nail on the head.....
@Joseph Bethea
Where in the article does it state he is a racist? I can't find it anywhere. Or are you just talking out your azz?
Your right, because everyone is out talking about killing the current president, wait that was Bush.
http://www.binscorner.com/pages/d/death-threats-against-bush-at-protests-i.html
JustaGrunt, are you saying the people yelling "Kill Him!" at Sarah Palin and McCain rallies were not threats? How about the scares in NC? TN? Denver? What's telling is that some of these threats were being planned before he even made his inaugural speech.
Both Presidents indeed had crazies after them, they always do. But the overall rhetoric seems to have amplified. Do you not notice it?
No I am not saying that, they are threats, I was just responding to "People gave Bush a hard time, but nothing close to what's thrown at the current." I don't see people protesting the current President with these signs. Yes there are crazies out there that no matter who the President is will hate and despise them; however I don't think that the rhetoric has been amplified. The news coverage has been amplified, so in turn it appears to be happening more now then against past Presidents.
Shuklack it isn't any different your perspective is. Presidents are called names al the time for example Bush & Shrub.
And catch a little news library coverage of 1968 in front of the White House. That president was White.I think he got called a baby killer and quite a few other expletives. And somebody took a shot at Teddy Roosevelt in Milwaukee. You just haven't watched American politics long enough.
what a piece of racist trash you are!!!
I have no ill will toward Pres Obama, but I can sort of understand why the hate seems more intense than the hate for Bush. Bush lied, but had 9/11 for cover in the beginning. A lot of folks who made the mistake for voting in Bush really was hoping for change under Obama, as did so many independents and even progressives. The fact is Obama has not only gone against all his campaign promises, but has upheld many Bush policies does increase the folks that might hate the guy. It isn't all GOP fanatics. The GOP is split because of GWB for the most part, now the Dems are probably going to be split once it is all said and done.
Joseph, that is an absolutely Foolish comment. I know a # of Black people, both in and out of the military who do not support Obama. This has absolutely nothing to do with race.
Every time someone doesn't support Obozo the liberals all scream the race card. They can't seem to understand that it doesn't matter what color he is. I don't like his politics, and never have.
Supporting a person BECAUSE of his race is just as racist as Not supporting him because of his race.
Obama is white!!!
Plaind and Simple. We need more of the WHOLE Story.
you already have it
military personel have less rights than civilians. It is not a seperate 'America' trained to kill that debates these kinds of matters on Facebook. DO YOU UNDERSTAND. YES SIR.
more facts and let's talk about it? are you going to start crying too. this is typical behavior of a tea party, anything. you name it they whine over it.
now look at America, the home of the brave? going to talk about a marine and his rights to moan & bitch.
Doesn't matter what he said. No armed forces member should follow nor is allowed, by law, to follow an unlawful command by anyone in the chain of command. Problem is, there is no Marine who has the authority to deem an executive order unlawful. So, that statement, and his affiliation with or creation of a group known as "Armed Forces Tea Party" is prohibited by Defense Department Directive 1344.10. If a courts-martial or tribunal finds him guilty of such, he should (and will) be dishonorably discharged from the USMC
heard they are shooting for other than honorable mostly because of his record
I clearly remember all these phony little toads calling themselves patriots and conservatives slamming former soldiers for condemning Bush, so we should all enjoy the entertainment value of them being forced to reveal themselves as dishonest, sniveling hypocrites.
Exactly! If anyone even "thought" something critical of Bush, heads would roll, Hannity, O'Reilley, And Beck, would be all over it!
Dishonest, sniveling hypocrites!
Absolutely. I am not even saying that I think he is in the wrong by what he is expressing. But if you don't like it, you change the laws. The rules are there for a reason, and a Marine knows, when he or she signs up, that you are going to go somewhere that you do as you are told. I applaud those Service Personnel who chose not to participate. That is their right to make that choice. There are things that will happen as a result, and you have to live with the choice. Or fight it.
Likely, even if you win, the spoils will be for those who come after, because you still violated your Oath. It will work out that way for many. I agree about your statements about the hypocrites. You can watch these stories and the conversation that happens after, and you can foresee the usual suspects on opposite sides of their own espoused views, depending on what the circumstance is. And they look down their noses at Mitt Romney, calling him a waffler. They are ALL wafflers, every last one of 'em :)
what a douche...I'm active duty military, and this guy is a turd. I may have not been a fan of President Bush, but still my Commander in Chief, but still an honor to serve in our military. When I'm not happy about one of my Commander in Chiefs, I always remember this: I'm a volunteer and my ultimate boss is the the American Citizen that I proudly serve every day. If you want to take difference with POTUS, do it around the campfire or wait till you've fulfilled your obligation that YOU went out of your way to commit to.
"I'm a volunteer and my ultimate boss is the the American Citizen that I proudly serve every day."
What a bunch of nonsense. Your bosses are the corrupt politicians who decide that we are going to get involved without ever consulting the citizenry or even clearly established laws. (See: "It's not a conflict! It's a 'kinetic military action!'") Any soldier who thinks differently is deluded.
Exactly, today's troops are just fighting for Exxon/Mobil, BP, Halliburton, Raytheon, etc. Face it, nobody, even the Chinese could dream of taking us on. The Russians can only take nations like Georgia on, shoot they barely took Chechnya, and to be honest I don't they really did.
Really LevTolstoy2 You know you vote those people into office and so far out of the stupid wars generated by the bush family in which I was in one of them my brother in two and which we both said these wars made no meaning like alot of americans (check your history) at least now we have at least one decent one that is actually trying to stop said nonsense.
Another rebel without a cause....just a lemming following the uninformed illiterate disguised as principles. I suppose he is one of those upstanding Marines who pissed on Taliban corpses. He also must have overlooked the oath he took upon enlisting. What a punk!
What does invading a 3rd World nation have to do with the defense of the US? Yeah a nation where according to the CIA the average person makes $800 a year is a threat to our national existence and freedom. A landlocked nation 8,000 miles away, without oil, mostly mountainous, and no tax base whatsoever to field any type of modern military for simple defensive purposes is a danger to our national security! The oath was for defending the US against real dangers, not to engage in neo colonialism which just enriches a few
Do not need to read the article. You are in the military. You do not undermine the chain of command. Period.
@Ed-680993
AND if that "Chain of command" orders you to go door to door taking American citizens guns from them you are just going to blindly do it? Any one who would do that would be an idiot. Period!
If you're going to insinuate on a facebook group called "Armed Forces Tea Party" that the current potus will order you to do such a ridiculous thing (especially given that he has left gun control largely untouched) - you are not only being ignorant on the current state of gun-rights in the US, you are also being insubordinate.
and why would anyone be stupid enough to go door to door taking guns when you can just stop making bullets, gun powder,and or casings. You may have enough now but you will eventually run out or die and your hidden stash won't be found.
he has not left gun control alone. he secretly gave fire arms to drug cartelles and tried to blame it on ownership by american citizens until he got caught.
What the Marine was saying is that should Barry O' order him to kill other American citizens or round them up to be placed into camps, or anyother such action he feels that the circumstance would be illegal in terms of the US Constitutional Law he is sworn to protect from enemies, Foreign and Domestic. If a presidento should try to set himself up as a Despot or Dictator, thwe first thing he would do would be to disarm the citizens. Jusy look at History and see how successful the process works in Nazi Germany, Russia, China and other many examples.
I know for a fact that the troops are trained for such a contingency. I know because I was trained in such a school during the 70's. It was different times and there was much social unrest around the country. We troops, white, black, hispanic, asian all had to ask ourselves the big question, would we do it against other Americans?
This young Marine aparently did so, and was strong enough to publish his thoughts. Thank you Marine for your courage and patriotism. Thank you for your service and I hope you make General.
Wars are fought and won by soldiers that fight for a cause such as freedom, not some lame brained politicians. The same people who attack him are attacking our freedoms by attacking the Constitution.
Veteran, 101st. Airborne Infantry
Only a Combat veteran knows the horrors of war and sees the oppression from around the world first hand. There have been instances in the past where the veterans came home to find the local government as corrupt as the place they just left. They usually took matters into their own hands. These armchair quarterbacks do not seem to understand that this Marine has fought for your right to complain and to enjoy the first Amendment.
"These armchair quarterbacks do not seem to understand that this Marine has fought for your right to complain and to enjoy the first Amendment." Really, Larry? It seems that a number of them understand quite well because they are Marines themselves. I come from a Marine family, and believe me, when we were growing up, everybody in the family, down to the smallest child, knew the rules and what would happen if they weren't respected. This Marine has chosen to flaunt the rules, and now doesn't want to face the consequences. He says he wants to stay in the Corps, but what kind of example would he be to his subordinates?
Subordinates, hell...he was a recruiter, for God's sake...what kind of example would he set for the new enlistees?!
Larry. There are instances where the government which SENT US Military overseas were corrupt, not just when they got back.
Being from the 101st Airborne, you should know very well the rules he broke, and why he is being discharged. Personally, I can't understand any veteran or active service member who wants to take issue with the consequences this Marine is facing.
That fool would never receive a command from the President, thus confirming the political intent of his verbal actions. Support him all you want, he's out, as he should be.
Typical behavior for the tea holes and they want to be taken seriously???? This guy should be tarred and feathered and hung in the town square. He's a disgrace to the uniform and our country. He's already shaved his head, all he needs now is a sheet!
What did you see in this article (or elsewhere) that made you think that he is a racist?
He broke the rules of his commanding officers...kick his ass out!!!
So I guess you could have been a SS Einsatzgruppen trooper in 1942 that mowed down Jews, gypsies, communist guerrillas, civies on the Eastern Front, all because your Fuhrer said so? Wow we hung a lot of Germans using that defense. "I just followed orders"!
You know I swear I remember that it stated in my contract with the navy, that upon enlisting in the military that we "no longer had the same rights and privileges accorded under the constitution, and were now subject to the UCMJ" until my contract was up. Yes that means "we" gave up our First Amendment right. He broke the law according to the UCMJ and he will be punished accordingly.
I seem to remember that same contract...you are no longer an individual with the same rights as a civilian...you are US Gov't property. Even getting a tattoo can potentially get you written for "destruction of gov't property". This turd deserves whatever disciplinary action he gets. MM2, USN 1979-1982.
Listen, he has the right to not follow what he considers unlawful orders. Fine.
But there will be a review of his actions in an Article 32 hearing, and if found liable to stand courts-martial on his actions then he will be tried according to the UCMJ.
He has the right. He also has to accept the consequences of being wrong.
"Ours is not to wonder why, ours is but to do or die."
No soldier should follow an illegal command, but no soldier should be stupid enough to publicly declare that his sense of "illegal" will be politically based and then whine about the resulting consequences from the chain of command.
Suck it up, Bucko.
I know I wouldn't want you watching my back in a pinch because you might let your politics second guess your duty.
Griping about your superiors is a military tradition that goes back to the Revolutionary War. The better commanders tolerate it and even pay attention, since it might be a better way of learning the truth about your situation than what a staff of sycophants may tell you. Incompetent boobs, not wanting to hear of their shortcomings, will of course want to suppress it. The troops, however, need to be careful. There is a big difference between talking to your buddies about how Commander So-and-so is an idiot and making a poster about it to hang in the Mess Hall.
As a Vietnam vet, I can see it both ways! A member of the US military MUST follow the Uniform Code Of Military Justice or face the consequences of his/her actions.
However, IF the Commander-In-Chief tells you to shoot your fellow citizens on American soil, the response should be be "Hell No, Sir". If that should happen, the UCMJ becomes null & void. A service member takes an oath to defend against terrorism both foreign and DOMESTIC! In this case, the C-O-C becomes a terrorist and is therefore guilty of treason against the citizens of the USA. The military has every right to remove him from office!
In this case however, Sgt Stein has reacted to a hypothetical situation as mentioned in the above paragraph. By doing this publicly, he has shown disrespect for the Commander-in-Chief and should be released from military service. We can not allow our troops to become involved in the political arena without just cause!
This kid was looking for trouble and he got it, I don t feel sorry for him...
He wanted to be OPENLY DEFIANT,that s just another way of saying "kiss my @ss "
What would human beings do without hate and rage ????